Which Aerodrome Mk III

[evansb]

Thank you. Camp Borden was the historic birthplace of the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Here is the next one:
http://i1047.photobucket.com/albums/b477/gumpjr_bucket/nato%20base.jpg

[Heathrow Harry]

something in the middle of those roundels = Australia, Canada or New Zealand (prob Canada)

[DaveReidUK]

something in the middle of those roundels = Australia, Canada or New Zealand (prob Canada)

RCAF North Star 17513 in the LH foreground, so probably safe to rule out Down Under.

Destroyed in a hangar fire in March 1956, so photo must predate that.

[albatross]

Humm..Dhc-3 Otter so early 50s I would guess..but where?

[evansb]

The photo was taken in 1955. FYI The RCAF retired the DHC-3 Otter in 1982.

[India Four Two]

Definitely a Canadian hangar. The trees would indicate somewhere in Ontario or points east.

[evansb]

Not Bagotville. Yes, mystery aerodrome located in Ontario.

[DaveReidUK]

Tricky one.

If it's where I think it is, none of the buildings in the photo survive, with the hangars and one of the runways under a freeway (though some were still there when I visited in the 1980s).

If it helps anyone, I was privileged to get a tour of the aircraft restoration workshops. :O

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I think it might be CFB Rockcliffe, now the site of the Canada Aviation and Space Museum.

[evansb]

Yes, it is Rockcliffe Airport, (IATA: YRO, ICAO: CYRO), Ottawa, Canada.

Your turn.

[evansb]

Hello? Hello? It is your turn.

[nvubu]

I'll keep the thread going with this photo of an airfield being constructed.
https://xplnfg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3me-g3FcrMwzIE0s-hUJzqqNC3j65r4rRvx8tr9Lo5NKsGZV3Xk8_TmOEvkQH7fmB6zEEf3XAubNe M4Ms5Hbwt0_BltYf_kkeGtDkahHQ4uarm_XKb_QjdF7NWsj0CzCP3ZfuogB9 WYXFw6l4aZSYLy6G0e4g-n558yXVsZnS8Pq4?width=1024&height=773&cropmode=none


If TCF appears, I'll cede control.

[India Four Two]

Are we back in the Arctic again?

[nvubu]

Hmmm.. Interesting question, which I had to look up the answer.

Just outside the Arctic circle.

[Heathrow Harry]

Could almost be Mt Pleasant in the Falklands!!!

[Haven't a clue]

Iceland - Keflavik?

[nvubu]

Haven't a clue is very close.

[Haven't a clue]

How close - Reykjavik maybe?

[nvubu]

no - much much closer to (but not) Meeks Field

[nvubu]

You can, and you have. Patterson field it is.

The floor is yours Jenkins

[Haven't a clue]

I knew little about Iceland's role in WWII but learnt a lot of fascinating stuff in the past 15 minutes or so. Visited the place in February and the rocks I photographed looked very much like the ones in your picture. Thanks nvubu for the challenge!

[nvubu]

You're welcome

Here are some more images of Patterson Field.

Control Tower - similar view today - clicky (https://goo.gl/maps/aZSLVeDZhTJ2)
https://ziktra.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mHMEig_XS_flPLlTVS3FzI7lDHRqNwC7RHHt9FEbzWIwAOht9NIKryYLXO 7rkkbL_pe8B-o1VeR8ydYBclfXAXMHMoXxajv6vHjBHrKLQCSKHNLuFxmPuD4NQ24oMGLfdX 33_4sW2z_SS8ziZUks4heDz04R0wFHDUSP7F4ktH88?width=1024&height=760&cropmode=none

https://qcs2xa.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3meK4i30xoVsFMsz-JUMuIxdrirKXt9E5K4oPW2ztL9XauvFuANwS5ohA6Ef6qbviCOB_OvuPsyW0 0px2Dh3nQRHnkfkEviPtZ5dHigWYRLZ4wa3QbS6Yo1h-5Xk1lih371uGG7i9MyHDOw-4KLk6Gk-gU4VuwoVOiEe-C5KTUE_A?width=1024&height=748&cropmode=none

https://lg5ada.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3myh4XtJzGGV9WRq_U75lUroFegf0fUb3OdM1zLmpPml3Oi6sx4CIc69xyA Zx9NCETRxT7yXUKrCTpMbRVNtObIA56wLKkDRPwXI-kTdBNMEHFpIz_PirT_zwabcHdcm6aggY2o_gswAQRP_-5v92o1Gnf0HseY1SmkfrD7WZbEFo?width=1024&height=766&cropmode=none


I'll keep other photos from Iceland under wraps for later challenge.

[Wycombe]

Could almost be Mt Pleasant in the Falklands!!!

Nope, not hilly enough and no horizontal snow ;-)

[India Four Two]

Nothing Arctic about this aerodrome:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-10%20at%2022.57.21_zpssymcpf6o.png

Sorry about the fuzziness - the pilot who took this photo, didn't understand the concept of manual focus.

[nvubu]

Somewhere in the Pacific?

[chimbu warrior]

Majuro PKMJ.

OH if correct (and I'm fairly sure it is).

[India Four Two]

Yes, it's Marshall Islands International Airport on Majuro Atoll. Elevation 6 feet and soon to be lower!

I'm currently "sailing" through the Marshall Islands (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/587616-virtual-sailing-sailonline-race-christmas-christmas-2016-a.html) and while searching on GE, I found Majuro.

The picture is a screengrab from a video taken by the pilots of a 737 being ferried from Arizona to Indonesia.

sUx3n5ZsWSc

Worth watching for the very casual CRM - the pilots pass the camera back and forth!

Chimbu Warrior has declared Open House.

[barry lloyd]

A 737 from Arizona to Indonesia? Pah! Try ferrying a 748 (Avro) from Woodford to Majuro for delivery to Air Marshall Islands in the 1980s...:E

[India Four Two]

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-11%20at%2010.03.23_zpswl8vlkis.png

Barry,
I assume you didn't fly the GC route. ;)

West or East about? How many hours?

[barry lloyd]

Here's one of mine to maintain the continuity - and speaking of the 748...

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll226/tango15_photos/Scan10040.jpg

[barry lloyd]

:) If only! Took the long route via the Far East, then PNG, Solomon Islands, iirc.

[nvubu]

Looks tropical - Sub-Saharan Africa?

[barry lloyd]

No, a long way from there...

[India Four Two]

Certainly tropical. How about PNG?

[barry lloyd]

No - wrong continents :)

[sidtheesexist]

Somewhere warm....tropical maybe sub tropical......northern or Southern Hemisphere? :ok:

[barry lloyd]

North of the Equator, but definitely tropical!

[India Four Two]

So when you said "Wrong continents", did you mean that laterite runway is on another continent or not on a continent at all? :)

[barry lloyd]

It's not in Africa and it's not in Asia. It was a laterite strip, but this photo is about 30 years old.

[oldpax]

Could this be in Guyana?

[barry lloyd]

It could be...

[nvubu]

If it is in Guyana - having been through all the airports listed in Wiki, I reckon it's one of Lethem or Linden - leaving towards Lethem as there doesn't seem to be any evidence of buildings at all around Linden.

[barry lloyd]

Yes, it's Lethem! From what I can see, apart from a runway with a firmer surface, not a lot has changed.

Over to you...

[nvubu]

I'll have something later this evening, however, if anyone wants to jump in now please do so.

[nvubu]

Here we go, the next mystery aerodrome.

Couple of images during a raid.
https://l245ha.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mOtD7rK1LxBMgUnIZbbj9J0vg-6yqUPLWlwcAXUSKNWJgBUpcaMecApuEz73hEwLcnEwwsHTaGgETPcKCkct0D AyZfnvzD3kHUWn2mVJh49jxdE2KFe8wA5Si-5Jq_bI5KZWVSbK85ZvDuMUrA6KJZ3KBZHFLtOkKV2c_xQM5SKE?width=703&height=1024&cropmode=none


https://0skmva.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mcWknuj2iOjzFiY0NqRsaKhtzf9uknqvr-Y5YakPYQ5vTfQx0rbTSgK_pAJs13W0zwr_TbVK1f6FhpVJOQc25fzc3mUk-0oizYAT930Ei-ZSiIPxWnfGnqEAA_ezNNB9Xh03FDdKCN4dxf7ncNGQw2wSbxJ21fjPre-NhvA7ENjQ?width=1024&height=980&cropmode=none

[nvubu]

Clue time. Another airfield that is located in a region that has changed countries.


It is no longer an airfield, but layout is still very recognisable - and there seems to be the outline of a landing circle remaining - very visible on Bing Maps.

[nvubu]

Here's how it looks now

https://m0dwdg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mXA4uTJXLH2DzVWuziY-HRfAU6iNkNr5Hbt3oO-eQKDDrkl2wT_2F1S6-Bn8-xmiHBuKkpR34TtxOJWCYW81P-t4fdZqCwIpYIEbhvXbEHbY2IFLI-jUdoZ44SiNkhKlRRRm42VMSFLM5CbrRjCkMIcwKvcIk0SnMu6Ob4iXeZM8?w idth=896&height=1024&cropmode=none


and then
https://0skmva.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mcWknuj2iOjzFiY0NqRsaKhtzf9uknqvr-Y5YakPYQ5vTfQx0rbTSgK_pAJs13W0zwr_TbVK1f6FhpVJOQc25fzc3mUk-0oizYAT930Ei-ZSiIPxWnfGnqEAA_ezNNB9Xh03FDdKCN4dxf7ncNGQw2wSbxJ21fjPre-NhvA7ENjQ?width=1024&height=980&cropmode=none

[India Four Two]

nvubu,

Thanks for your update. In the original pictures, I thought the linear feature was a canal, but I see it's a railway.

a region that has changed countries.


Schleswig-Holstein?

[nvubu]

Not Schleswig-Holstein. It is in the same area as my previous one from WWI.

It is no longer an aerodrome so it's much harder to find, so to help <-------- is approx. north on the previous two photos.

There was a very early battle (Aug 1914) in the area (that'll have you thumbing through the history books). There seems to have been a fair amount of action in the first month of the war.

I have found some photos of the airfield on an auction site - but only when searching under the German name.


edit: my modern photo is a screenshot from Bing Maps as the "landing circle" is visible here, whereas it is not so pronounced in GE.

[Terry Dactil]

Thanks for the clues.

The Germans started the war advancing towards Lille, which is North West of your previous location, so I followed the railway line from there in that direction looking for roads crossing it.
When I got to road D674 there it was., just a nondescript open field now.

The nearest Village is Morhange which has a bloody history.
The Battle of Morhange saw the start of one of the bloodiest periods of the war for France, now largely forgotten, especially outside of France. Morhange was in Lorraine and was in a region annexed by the new nation of Germany after the Franco-Prussian War in 1871. Therefore Morhange was in Germany in 1914 and called Mörchingen. In the fighting here on 20th August 1914 the French lost more than 5,000 men, but it was just the start of a very dark period leading up to the blackest day on 22nd August 1914 when more than 22,000 French soldiers were killed in one day. By the close of the year the French had lost more than 300,000 killed on the battlefield; nearly a fifth of the total losses for the whole war in just the first few months.

[India Four Two]

just a nondescript open field now.
... but just to the northwest, before you get to Étang de Mutche, there are a lot of bomb craters and the wreck of a WWII armoured car ( 48°56'46"N, 6°38'52"E).

[nvubu]

Thought that would help. Yes Morhange Aerodrome / Mörchingen Flugplatz it is. Unlike the 2nd world war, there was nothing phony about the start of the first. I couldn't believe how active and bloody August 1914 was until I researched the airfield.

The auction I found is here (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Hammer-Fotoalbum-KEST-3-Ehrenbecher-Moerchingen-Morhange-Lothringen-Fliegertruppe-/222227554598) - some interesting images.

Over to you Terry

[Terry Dactil]

Nothing handy right now, so it's OPEN HOUSE.

[Dora-9]

Well this one will last about 30 seconds, given the huge clue with the aircraft (it's just to keep the thread going, Your Honour):

[Terry Dactil]

30 seconds?
Yeah right!
You are a sneaky bugger, Rod. I think that airfield does not exist now.
http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t552/terrydactil/Capture_zpsz8dq6un9.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/terrydactil/media/Capture_zpsz8dq6un9.jpg.html)
I reckon it is the (ex) Laverton RAAF base in Victoria.

[Dora-9]

Laverton it is, now covered by housing.

Actually my previous submission (Werribee), lies just out of the top of the frame.

Over to you...

[Terry Dactil]

OK. Try this.
Here is another one that is not what it used to be.
You can still see the ghosts of old runways.
http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t552/terrydactil/Airfield_zpsv1etw5ff.jpg

[chimbu warrior]

Looks like Tocumwal to me.

Open house if correct.

[Dora-9]

I did think about winding Ted up by saying "it's McIntyre Field"!

[Terry Dactil]

Tocumwal (aka McIntyre Field :D ) it is.
For those not familiar with the region it used to look like this.
http://ozatwar.com/airfields/tocumwal04.jpg
Interesting history.
Wanna buy a Kittyhawk for 15 pounds?
From 'History of the Tocumwal Airfield and its surrounds (by Bob Brown)' Link- (http://tocumwal.weebly.com/history.html)
At the war's end, Tocumwal as Australia's major aircraft depot, received hundreds upon hundreds of all types of aircraft for mothballing and storage. The rows of aircraft, packed wing tip to wing tip stretched as far as the eye could see, from one perimeter fence to the other. Nobody wanted these faithful machines that served Australia so well. Everyone wanted to forget the war and alll things warlike.

After languishing in the elements for ten years or more, they were all, every last one of them, chopped up and smelted down into ingots of aluminium. Post-war, with everything in short supply, aluminium was a much needed commodity. It was needed for pots and pans and for the new Holden motorcar coming into production. Scrap metal merchants set up smelters on the aerodrome and bought the planes by the hundreds - 157 Pounds 12 Shillings and 6 pence each for complete Beaufighters, 20 Pounds for Beaufords, 15 Pounds for Kittyhawks, 8 Pounds for Vultee Vengeances - Liberators, Flying Fortresses, Mustangs, Mosquitoes, Wirraways, all went to the furnaces.

Today, any one of these aircraft would be priceless. It's easy to be wise after the event, but it's beyond understanding that someone, somewhere did not have the foresight to save a few of these Australian treasures. Similarly, nearly all the 450 aerodrome buildings and all the hospital buildings were sold and removed. After the war when building materials were virtually unobtainable, the hangars, huts and workshops were snapped up by builders, giving no thought to any historical value.
http://www.b24australia.org.au/fileadmin/filemount/library/0112.jpg
This photo is from the B-24 restoration project archives (well worth a look) Home | B-24 Liberator Restoration Australia (http://www.b24australia.org.au/home)

chimbu warrior em i tok 'OPEN HOUSE"

[nvubu]

No-one else going to leap in?

[India Four Two]

Since you insist. ;)

Here's one I've driven past a few times and never knew it was there.

Not surprising really, considering it's on top of a hill and surrounded by trees.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-16%20at%2010.42.48_zpsrk5eufzh.png

[nvubu]

Somewhere in Canada?

[India Four Two]

No. Further south.

[evansb]

Rainelle, West Virginia ?

[India Four Two]

bri,

That's amazing. Such a precisely defined answer and so precisely wrong! :)

I just had to look it up. I can't believe there is another field with such a similar runway layout.

Go further south.

[India Four Two]

Time for a clue.

Go MUCH further south.

Here's where you turn off the highway to go to the mystery aerodrome:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-17%20at%2011.35.53_zpsak8uls2b.png

[nvubu]

That looks like they are driving on the correct side of the road :)

[India Four Two]

It may be correct, but it's not right! ;)

[nvubu]

New Zealand?

[India Four Two]

Yeah, bro!

[nvubu]

Bit of research into road markings from here (https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/motsam/part-2/docs/motsam-2-section-3.pdf) - blimey, you get led into the weird and wonderful on this thread.:ok:

[siftydog]

Hmmm, looks like the Te Marua? gliding site just north of Upper Hutt. I last flew from there 25 years ago - is it still open?

[India Four Two]

siftydog,

That's the one, Kaitoke Airfield, home of the Hutt Valley Gliding Club. I stumbled across it on GE, when I was looking for information relating to the recent Rimutaka Incline thread on Jet Blast.

You have control.

[siftydog]

Have to make it OH, though I've got a couple of tinkers from some old slides I'll copy for another challenge. SD

[nvubu]

Here we go then - a slightly different one from me
https://ppzf3g.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mtI0GJEBHzOMos36oE_jAhyAPf2r0N12BjrTkzRt9__aoK-OkYDIXqTErEWByktNNLony5-6qXJpyR90Atw5bBuh2zPwXmJAkb0Gms0h0geLHA2hNX4uk6pG3bOqqgOVu-DWnAyU-DWvb31ej9wB1cX0Q9x02OhKXvGciRFZtmsk?width=1024&height=158&cropmode=none


Here's a link (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/KellyField.jpg) to the full-sized image as there is a huge amount of detail lost as I've had to shrink it down from 23465px to 1024px wide - although I have obscured the writing which gives away the name, date & photographer.

[Terry Dactil]

What a great photo. Thanks for posting it.
blimey, you get led into the weird and wonderful on this thread
I have just learned that the US Army Air Force marking started as a plain red star, then it changed to a roundel for commonality with other WW1 allies.
That means the aircraft are not British or French as I originally thought.
So that makes the aircraft Curtiss JN-4s (Jennys) around 1918.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmb5cg216z8k79r/Rondels.JPG?dl=1

The hangars seem to match with this photo.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Love_Field_Texas_1918.jpg

I'll go for it being Dallas Love Field (KDAL) just after America entered WW1.

[nvubu]

It's not in Dallas, but you do have the right state :ok:


edit to add - the date of the photo is Jan 5 1919

[India Four Two]

I have just learned that the US Army Air Force marking started as a plain red star, then it changed to a roundel for commonality with other WW1 allies.Two observations:

1. What would the Russian Airforce have done if the red star was not available? :E

2. I now know what the DH-4's markings are, in Kiwithrottlejockey's great photos:

http://i378.photobucket.com/albums/oo227/Kiwithrottlejockey/TVAL%202016/20161217_1636_img7143_zpsdkptqjry.jpg~original

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/531109-wwi-breaks-out-new-zealand.html#post9612142

[Terry Dactil]

It's not in Dallas, but you do have the right state

OK. I'll move along then.
Kelly Field ?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Kelly_Field_-_Texas_-_1920.jpg

[nvubu]

You have it in two - Kelly Field it is. I've changed the photo and links to the in-edited images - name in the centre, photographer on one of the buildings on the right.

Fascinating panoramic photo, and the level of detail is amazing. I do wonder what they are doing in the centre of the image. Holding hands?

Control back to you.

[Terry Dactil]

I do wonder what they are doing in the centre of the image. Holding hands?
It looks like they are forming the number "30" to be photographed on the fly-past. Perhaps for a #30 class photo?
Maybe the aircraft arrived a bit early before they had finished.

[Terry Dactil]

Staying on the same theme then.
Here is another; same era, same purpose, but nothing like the same scale.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s9pnopkggo2xg8x/PC.JPG?dl=1

[India Four Two]

Fly past?

The photograph was taken from the water tower.

I think the letters are "SO" plus two others in the process of forming or breaking up. A panoramic photo like that would take perhaps a minute to take.

What surprises me about the picture is that I can't see any* automobiles or trucks.

*Whoops, let's change that to very few - perhaps five.

[Terry Dactil]

The photograph was taken from the water tower.
Yeah. I hadn't noticed the tower as I was just looking for matching hangars.
I thought it was amazing resolution to get from an airborne camera so long ago.

[nvubu]

Is it both a land and water drome?

[Terry Dactil]

Is it both a land and water drome?
Ah. You spotted my cunning cropping of the photo.
Yes, it was also once a seaplane base too.
Here is a photo of some seaplanes there in 1925 that could misdirect you completely.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zob8yz4m7djrll/Seaplanes.JPG?dl=1

[nvubu]

According to Wiki, USS Richmond:

In January 1925, Richmond, flagship of Light Cruiser Divisions, Scouting Fleet, again participated in Caribbean exercises. In February, she transited the Panama Canal and during March trained off the California coast. In April, she steamed to Hawaii for joint Army-Navy maneuvers, after which she joined the Battle Fleet for a good will cruise to Australia and New Zealand.
For the misdirect then - not in the US, so either the Panama canal area, Australia or New Zealand?


Possibly Point Cook - if what I thought was a slipway is a jetty/pier (bloody long one), the buildings seem to match up.

[albatross]

Coco Solo?

[Terry Dactil]

There was a ramp at the end of the jetty.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2w845dlyk80vl97/Pier.JPG?dl=1

Point Cook it is. (or RAAF Williams for Dora-9 :E )
Point Cook is the oldest continuously operating military airfield in the world.
It started in 1914 with some leading edge technology like a Bristol Boxkite.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdz892k66lxsebj/Boxkite.JPG?dl=1

Well done nvubu, you have control.

You can download free .pdf copy of the history.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ywmukayw92kccn/book.JPG?dl=1
at http://airpower.airforce.gov.au/publications/Details/561/An-Interesting-Point-A-History-of-Military-Aviation-at-Point-Cook-1914-2014.aspx

[Dora-9]

Trust you Ted to sneak one in while I was sleeping! I would have recognized Point Cook (or to acknowledge your point, half of RAAF Williams) instantly. Does this count?

[Terry Dactil]

Yes. You can have the next 'OPEN HOUSE'. :D

[nvubu]

Thanks, that was an interesting search. It was a bit of luck that Point Cook is the first named airfield on the Aus government page here (http://www.australia.gov.au/about-australia/australian-story/early-austn-aviation). We were at Werribee a few pages back as well, so I'd looked at the area in general.

My next offering is a real Which Aerodrome as I don't know where it is, but thought it was worth posting as it's another huge panorama and time for some sleuthing, and hopefully we'll come to a consensus.

https://n7v9uq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mkUeIh_wp9-FidBNks53gHGxU0tLroBvyDDOekJmRuSFzG0x5dhfHm_wAJwdOBqWAjHvbL4 ZUit_6sqXj_aRpUuduMpvtGGC_ny2eWXAz8d9OdzEufbhKHwZIHZ-KPsdPweYXwD1V49Ql7iWZ8lCBaiWTDgcSHvnYrzADpVq_v10?width=1024&height=213&cropmode=none

Here's (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/ObservationBalloon.jpg) the full sized image

There is a copyright symbol bottom left - Huddleston Photo Co Los Angeles Cal. The source document captions this "6 military blimps with crews", but they are observation balloons rather than blimps.

I've done some research on possible locations, but I'd like to read other opinions.


Edit to add: I now do think I know where it is :)

[Terry Dactil]

I found this photo with a little searching on 'US military balloons', and getting past the early days of civil war stuff.
https://latimesphoto.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/fa_570_rossfield5z_970.jpg

The buildings in the background seem to match,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5itqa8uqj4hw15u/Barracks2.JPG?dl=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ipcw3nn4tvaouvc/barracks1.JPG?dl=1

so I'll go for the Arcadia Balloon School at Ross Field.

Opened in 1918, the Arcadia Balloon School was built to train U.S. Army balloon observation troops for World War I. Before any graduates arrived in Europe, the war ended.

In November 1918, the base was renamed Ross Field, honoring Lt. Cleo J. Ross of the U.S. Army 8th Balloon Company, killed in action in France.

U.S. Army balloon operations continued at Ross Field for a few years, but by the mid-1920s, the base was closed

[nvubu]

That's the one.


I found part of my photo on the "Water and Power Associates (http://waterandpower.org/museum/Aviation_in_Early_LA_(Page_1).html)" website - and what an interesting page that turned out to be, and once you know where it is, the Abandoned & Little known airfields has more info here (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/CA/Airfields_CA_LA_E.htm#ross)


Over to you.

[Terry Dactil]

Thank you. That was an interesting bit of history.

Do you ever feel like being a (not so modern) major-general?
Here is the field manual for operating military balloons.
http://www.tommy1418.com/uploads/1/2/7/3/12733599/36132402-military-observation-balloons-usa-1917.pdf
MILITARY OBSERVATION BALLOONS (CAPTIVE AND FREE)
A COMPLETE TREATISE ON THEIR MANUFACTURE, EQUIPMENT, INSPECTION, AND HANDLING, WITH SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS
FOR THE TRAINING OF A FIELD BALLOON COMPANY

Nothing handy right now, so I''l declare 'OPEN HOUSE'

(so Dora-9 can get his prize for knowing all about RAAF Williams. :ok: )

[nvubu]

Interesting book - also great list of books to read at the end of the document. Ones I checked are still available.

Looking forward to Dora-9's submission

[Dora-9]

Sorry team, it will have to be OPEN HOUSE for me (trying to land me in it, Ted?)

[India Four Two]

Here's an easy one that might keep things going until the solstice*:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/WAD2016-12-20_zpsl2vkovhw.jpg

* 10:44 UTC on Wednesday - the days will be getting longer again. :ok:

[nvubu]

Looks N American to me?

[India Four Two]

Looks N American to me?

That's because it is! :)

[nvubu]

Boundary Bar in Vancouver has a similar look & feel, so in Canada?

[India Four Two]

Yes, in Canada.

That BCATP double-runway triangular layout is very distinctive.

[India Four Two]

nvubu,

I don't want you to get eyestrain, poring over GE, so I should tell you that this aerodrome is almost unrecognisable today. :)

[nvubu]

Been out this evening. Was checking Saskatchewan earlier, lots of similar looking aerodromes, but all seemed to have 6 hangers. Will carry on in the morning - unless someone else gets it first.

[Terry Dactil]

Thanks for the BCATP clue....:ugh:
I have found only...
7 Initial Flying Training Schools
36 Elementary Flying Training Schools
41 Service Flying Training Schools

... to check. Simples!

(and that is before I get into the specialist lists).

[India Four Two]

Terry,

I wouldn't want to make it too easy for an expert like you! ;)

I thought I had already given away too much.

As a favour to you, I'll tell you there is no need to look at the specialist lists.

[TwoBigDogs]

Is this the #3 Service training school south of Calgary?
Long-time "lurker", but this is my first post...!

[nvubu]

No. 3 Service Flying Training School and No. 10 Repair Depot, Calgary. I think called RCAF Station Lincoln Park?

[India Four Two]

That's it, well done!

http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/bcatpcalgary.html

The picture is looking towards the SE, with Glenmore Reservoir in the background. On GE, the only evidence left is the smallest of the five hangars in the row, plus the one at an angle behind that. The main ramp is also still extant. If you go back to the 2008 imagery, you can see all the hangars.

The base closed in the sixties, but my gliding club operated there for a while after that. On the left edge of the photo is Currie Barracks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Currie). It was closed in 1998 as part of budget cutbacks. There is now no regular army presence in Calgary.

The airfield is now the home of Mount Royal University and all the open ground in the photo is now covered in houses. The reservoir is about 3 nm from downtown. The edge of the city is now 12 nm out!

nvubu has control.

[nvubu]

It was an interesting search - and I got distracted by a fair few of the airfields I looked at. I just couldn't find on with 4 1/2 hangers, plus the water in the background.


OK, where in the world should we go next ? I'll have a rummage.

[Russell Gulch]

Its nice to se this thread have a new lease of life! thanks to all the contributors!
Russ

[India Four Two]

Russ,

Thanks.

It's nice to see that everyone is "playing the game" rather than doing just doing an image search.

[albatross]

Calgary....Only place I didn't think of looking ...well done.

[India Four Two]

albatross,

I thought my location would have been a give away!


TwoBigDogs,

Re your deleted post, I cannot PM you. Please PM or email me.

[Terry Dactil]

A bit more historical info, team. It was also originally 'Currie Field' or 'Calgary Military Airfield'
In 1935 the RCAF constructed a landing field on a section of army property located in southwest Calgary. The airfield was known as Currie Field or the Calgary Military Airport. In 1938, the aerodrome was home to two RCAF squadrons: No. 3 (Bomber) Squadron flying Westland Wapitis and No. 1 (Fighter) Squadron flying Armstrong Siskins later upgraded to Hawker Hurricanes. No. 1 (F) Squadron became 401 Squadron posted overseas for combat duty. During the BCATP Lincoln Field became No.3 SFTS airfield. Aircraft flown Avro Anson and Cessna Cranes. After the war became No.10 Repair Depot until 1947 when No.25 Air Material Base Calgary. The base was renamed RCAF Station Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park became a training centre for NATO pilots. This training facility closed in 1958 and the station became an emergency landing field. RCAF Station Lincoln Park was closed to aviation for good in 1964.
I eventually found a plan view of the airfield.
It makes for an interesting search on Google Earth when the 'after' bit of 'before and after' is no longer an airfield. :ok:

Before:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oce7syoq387riy8/Calgary%20old.JPG?dl=1

After:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3qzo3cg70erhf24/Calgary%20new.JPG?dl=1

[nvubu]

Thanks for that Terry, very interesting - can you do the same at the International airport as there's a similar looking ghost there as well.

Russ - I was quite surprised to see how quiet it had gone when I came back to it a couple of months ago. Thought that it should be more active, and am glad that everyone has made interesting posts.

I've got one coming very shortly - another plan :ok: - just removing all the giveaway marks.

[nvubu]

OK, here we go. This is either very easy or hard :) I'll post a link to a larger version of the plan if wanted
https://nedxfg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mYMV0YsPUwTs53SatueOz5Q4vbiTu0sYsXu0LDWWzGA-05xqWD0_Zi7VyMDEaaN08aowB44AySttsa2j_9WIUHPxi5iOD7XgwmlQCuDV 1AfoSjvh1e-I3gvYZsskzaZwAs6x-0bW1iJB683lSMt5QtdRI73tGiROXRXpvYjY_NE0?width=1024&height=713&cropmode=none

Being constructed
https://n7vpuq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mlSL7Ehro44Rlq6rbYve0-SzvQ1Uuzq5W_u2ivYfyQgo2dPrtHD2lgt9_lyj_RwG4Dda9LkEoVpv078CWg fM-nD6kdetK15DZ5dSW6kz27Jm6u7NRI42XpIsCA64nw4sMt8BVoqkZ_oFtSNNu Y5YDvyOKa_4CzfJP7sQy1c6ZkPI?width=1024&height=573&cropmode=none

[Russell Gulch]

I know where it is but i dont know the name ( just north of the M60. at A663

Even the sewage works is still there

The Oldham Aircraft Factory?

[Terry Dactil]

Are we looking for an airship station in England in WW1 ?

Thanks Russell. That reduces the search area a lot :ok:

[nvubu]

As Russell has the location, I think he has it - Thought it might be easy :) edit: I see he does :ok:

Oldham Aircraft Factory - National Aircraft Factory No 4. Completed just before the end of the Great War, and seems not to have constructed very many aircraft before it closed.

I've replaced the plan above - and here (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/OldhamPlan.jpg) is a link to a larger version

I can't find any images of the airfield - which is where the Avro Ltd Aircraft Plant, Chadderton was built, latterly BAE Chadderton.


Terry - I'll post a balloon station another time :)

[Terry Dactil]

Thanks for the updated version . The increased resolution reveals a lot more details..
Interesting to see a POW camp on the site.
And what is a Gorse mill for? Feeding the horses or manufacturing dope?

[Russell Gulch]

That wasnt easy for me nvubu. but I know the UK canal network a bit so a bit of sleuthing with a NS railway gave me the location. The sewage works "sluice" helped. I won't tellyou what I do for a living .

Its a pity that there is little on the net about this place.

Open house for the moment, I do have photos but not available wright now.
Thanks for an interesting challenge, nvubu.

p.s I think you should leave your edited version of the chart up in post#5868 for the sake of it , because you removed the name and the name of the canal. but leave your link in your later post to the un-edited one. Russ

[nvubu]

Russell - I've returned the plan to the edited one as suggested.

Interestingly, this was a Handley Page site with a twist - see the below:

Answers the question Terry had about the Gorse Mill.
https://pfy85g.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m4X7wZFpPScjRGzF_75oBVCoTxKd7jKqkhYFKyYARd7GZY2fJmtmorkSIE AYAhh3DFGkIRSaLmqaipsreZ1UOmWKxRJ9bjPXV1DmCENj-NUX4DzOvKlrYWe5aWG0c6VI9Z4mG4TKppCO-ulR682-ko62I6D3CFTpJbnw2IrkpfZ4?width=773&height=1024&cropmode=none

https://yulylg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mSoawRKehAh3nln0-MkD-dIbfSVJJOhgxHOVZk7MdqXZTGS4MO_DoQUoXX02OevLaQhydk7YCpU6EO2tW VZBvBU2hsvxQeKu5z3i4V2cjoP4WX4hLRzURfZnpntN6rfzaFvTV-LftcjqpAn6D_h0h6iEiABDKWzwl07LonncyEsg?width=824&height=1024&cropmode=none


https://l24xja.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mvIsoY5E40UhBEf50Py0ssWGtnjX-IdmTFvlPHATRANoL_kQRF0sag0Xh9kIw0WDUoEnmglWb6sGw-VFERRsk7XS_SoFLyXrrwn_CMy2czapETsTOlIZlqmlJV507-bZeZvCsui328UIMs6AVyA5EmGHk5tk2qvVqAwIslgQQuRw?width=789&height=1024&cropmode=none


https://0skexa.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mzcJmyeGAI1JFvyLuRlOMuw-4oljth397oR-Hc-U-cqddzB-YZCRAWQ3zKiio35JrQoBgmIjWBawve2mdywVWmZCgxTGQMg-F615enuPCTzMf1EXCtqT8frXk26-2Nf4l7fgzIbh_P48vKGt6xwtiqDRfyo1Ai8JAS8uGBQRsKA4?width=785&height=1024&cropmode=none


And the next please

[Allan Lupton]

Oldham Aircraft Factory - National Aircraft Factory No 4. Completed just before the end of the Great War, and seems not to have constructed very many aircraft before it closed.

I can't find any images of the airfield - which is where the Avro Ltd Aircraft Plant, Chadderton was built, latterly BAE Chadderton.

In the 1970s John Bagley (then at RAE but later aeronautical curator at the Science Museum) and I visited the site and found tennis courts where the erecting sheds were - with the same pattern so using the same foundations! The office building had become a branch of HM Stationery Office and their security guard was a bit unhappy that we were taking photos. We didn't show him the period photos we had with us!
John told me it was to build HP O/400s, but that the armistice happened before any were produced. I can't see how they proposed to get the aeroplanes from the factory to the aerodrome for the Americans to fly 'em.
Most of that airfield that went with the factory was the other side of the (new since 1918) Greengate road from the Avro/HSA/BAe Chadderton plant and was mainly allottment gardens when we visited. I think the Chadderton plant is roughly where the American Camp is written on your plan.
Between the HMSO and the Chad. site was a post-WW2 housing development with an Edward VII pillar box on the roadway that heads for the railway bridge. That still makes me wonder what was there before the Oldham Aircraft Factory was built in 1918, as the pillar box should have been 1910 or earlier.
The whole area is totally different since the M60 and its access roads were built and I can't now be sure of what I remember. My post-1924 1" OS map is not much help as it dates from a time that aerodromes and related matters were omitted.

[evansb]

Is this still "What Aerodrome?"..

[Allan Lupton]

Is this still "What Aerodrome?"..
We've had a digression, to be sure, but someone, somewhere could be interested in more detail - and I'd say that some of the similar expansions in the previous 290-odd pages help justify this thread being in the History & Nostalgia area rather than Jet Blast.

[India Four Two]

i think it is a very interesting and highly suitable digression. The report posted by nvubu is fascinating and I would like to see more, particularly the conclusion.

I see from the address that the AEF were not slumming it - hobnobbing with the Bellamy's in Belgravia!

[nvubu]

I42

https://m0dpfg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m_hVVykjDeh6eHJYBUQkruI2LVHgsSMOjyFCfzOmFAFg19lPWj7qy6SMVm pW0TivdHKpxmb-hwSxyrTOJXyNPGqg-5A8K-8PklfnW7Acs-yzBhX-VgVQHTPiM7Pd7KuUu4AT8GqIhm5450O-lQARFDPsisOOaBayPH4VuQXVmRtc?width=1024&height=472&cropmode=none

So no aircraft had been completed :(.

Looking at various maps - current and via old-map.co.uk, the Regimental Institute (part of the American Camp) lasted until somewhere between 1965 & 1975.

[India Four Two]

Thanks, nvubu.

I am guessing that the Chief of Air Services' telegram was something along the lines of "How come you guys have spent so much money but have not assembled any aircraft?"

[nvubu]

I'll see what I can find :)


edit to add:
From what I can see the end of the war when it occurred was a complete surprise as the Handley Page Agreement has a schedule going out to July 1919 with the aim of creating 30 squadrons by that time, with 3 a month being created from 1st September 1918. There are minutes of meetings for Sep & Oct 1918 where costs are being discussed, and then in December everything has changed to how to dispose of the facilities and who owes what to whom. 3rd December meeting specifically refers to Oldham.

Here are some costs - clicky (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/OldhamCosts.jpg)


As Russell says below, it's Open House

[Russell Gulch]

It is still "open house" since I can't access my photos at this time, but the History (the "H" in "AHN" is worth the reminising.
Russ

[India Four Two]

nvubu,

The costs document is very interesting. Two observations:

1. Sgt. Hammond was a sensible fellow and way ahead of his time - converting shillings and pence to decimal!

2. Staggeringly expensive - that's £1.3 billion in today's money.

[chevvron]

I'll see what I can find :)


edit to add:
From what I can see the end of the war when it occurred was a complete surprise as the Handley Page Agreement has a schedule going out to July 1919 with the aim of creating 30 squadrons by that time, with 3 a month being created from 1st September 1918. There are minutes of meetings for Sep & Oct 1918 where costs are being discussed, and then in December everything has changed to how to dispose of the facilities and who owes what to whom. 3rd December meeting specifically refers to Oldham.

Here are some costs - clicky (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/OldhamCosts.jpg)


As Russell says below, it's Open House
There was still some other action going on overseas after WW1 notably in Afghanistan where an HP 0-400 was flown to Kabul by Tony Dudgeon,later AVM Dudgeon.(The Kabul Raid, Aeroplane Monthly c1980ish)
I vaguely recall the article saying they got the aircraft from Tangmere.

[Terry Dactil]

oi nvbdu !
What happened to your challenge?
By the time I found a possible answer it has disappeared :confused:

[Terry Dactil]

Anyway, to keep the Christmas spirit alive.. (that's a hint) ...here is a quickie to keep us going.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jswupkovtlmvfj2/XI.JPG?dl=1

[nvubu]

Terry, I thought I'd try and find one a bit more Christmassy, and then I got side-tracked by my kids :)


It'll come back - PM me where you think it is.




Your challenge. Oil region? Jungle?

[Terry Dactil]

Oil region? Jungle?
Nope. It had a mine, but that closed in the the 1980s.
That was the attraction for the Japanese attack and occupation in WW2.
As it has not been bombed since then, this one is a lot more Christmassy for you. :ok:
The photo is rotated 90º (West is up) to show a bit of ocean as a clue.

[chimbu warrior]

Christmas Island YPXM.

Open house.

[Terry Dactil]

You got it. :ok:

Merry Xmas to all
OPEN HOUSE it is.

[nvubu]

And a merry Christmas Island to you too - :ok:

I was trying to find a historical image of the other Christmas Island - when I got side-tracked.

Here's the one I took down .... Can anyone get it from this image? (Scroll down for another one)
https://nrv4uq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mfXqbYnzlrF3AMtxusyMnRSTF3blknSexapKPV57z3hdl4u12LIUZojRSj 6FTUqPHNvOH6X6bJxJRfLV4qhdkVVjIgnIhxuoe-B1wAZhXSg6nr-BNAFs0E1QY3vY2mfQA13Dx9f51HIQdBj5vyWkW4-lPfdgMu0b6EAa8A6ZSNcc?width=1024&height=797&cropmode=none



















































This might help
https://amwpda.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m2FwbU3JwMVBUmU9eAkO2dhZWOBR2jKO-mWe_okTsl0M99pVGWXBv41Fv8g7dsCHOr4qZ7bCwhqVCLKJtyFRevnUkycr5 4--jzXgsbz7yWpFzX1VArGsJHYJEpLlgN3OQIGms4ToQlh3G4Hgdi89RfX-nKp1WTugFejtjCnz-QjI?width=825&height=1024&cropmode=none

[Dora-9]

Woleai?

Seasons Greetings to one and all...

[nvubu]

It's not Woleai.

[nvubu]

Here's another overhead.
https://0skgxa.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m8FdWnOzpEUU_FdWVoCk1VpaYzHltpBdqR2dn2t6OSeeZWvIJ--vLzczD5PDLHJov1X-dNU07DqNKxOdERSLzcTSt-GNtveWUQ-HRA56rKFmDE8zV8Oy3BYhKeVngahDsbZVhUfDw5upqJobuxe-AqQaQOaJCdSpBBpmFrxCsKgA?width=1024&height=759&cropmode=none

[Dora-9]

Another floundering attempt, nvubu - Marcus Island?

[nvubu]

Marcus Island it is - not so floundering :ok:


Terry also got this from my previous post that I took down and PM'd me the answer, so well done as well.

It has an interesting history and although bombed repeatedly by US forces it was resupplied by submarine through a channel cut through the reef - you can see it in the photo above, and it is still visible today.

O/T:
I find it interesting that the US Carrier CVE-77 was renamed from USS Kanalku Bay to USS Marcus Island on 6 Nov 1943, yet the island was only captured by US forces in May 1945.

From Wiki
The Casablanca-class initially continued the US Navy's policy of naming escort carriers after bays and sounds, though several carried on the US Navy's tradition of naming aircraft carriers after battles. Those ships that appear to be named after islands, seas, straits or cities actually commemorated battles fought at those locations. Several had their original "Bay" names changed to battle names while under construction, and two of them (Midway and Coral Sea) lost their battle names mid-career to new Midway-class carriers, becoming USS St. Lo and USS Anzio respectively. Unlike the larger Essex and Independence-class carriers none were named to commemorate historical naval vessels.This link (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-CN-Raids/USN-CN-Raids-3.html) might answer this


Over to you Dora-9

[Dora-9]

Now I'm floundering to find another, so OPEN HOUSE.

[India Four Two]

Dora 9,

While you are still floundering, here's the last aerodrome in my bin:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/WAD%202016-12-26_zpstnte4woz.png

[Terry Dactil]

Do we start looking in New Zealand or Canada?

[India Four Two]

Well, if you start in New Zealand, it will take longer. I recommend Canada. ;)

[nvubu]

The first Calgary Municipal Airport, in Renfrew.

I am trying to find anything that matches to the above photo - as "several of the hangars still exist and are in use today, even though the area has been converted to a residential neighbourhood" - have found the Rutledge Hangar.

Just realised the swimming pool isn't :)

Just found this aerial on Flickr - and there's another of Rutledge hanger - clicky (https://www.flickr.com/photos/buglugs/1355904995/in/photostream/)
https://pqzkrg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m_u8dyOgwn0vMRVSo4n3DFKch08JjxJEE-BWxzInPz_zfIGbSA6lBN_ZuNjkHquv3Uo4K4sLtXZU3VGHh5tN4qrg4bAC_y AV_YkOTxymKLJBr6z5LvnBh2fiuEPXnQVy0HZJNSYjw9AkM5BZd98ELk3MJY 2x98bR_LcQ_mUNuOa4?width=1021&height=627&cropmode=none


You might be interested in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imupHG1YIGY) about Calgary - also other Pathe News (http://www.britishpathe.com/search/query/calgary) (without the music)

[India Four Two]

nvubu, very well done.

I was confused by your swimming pool reference, until I realized you were referring to my obfuscation.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Calgary%20Municipal%20Airport_zpsz0sail1g.png

I found the photo when I was researching Lincoln Park for my previous post. I was vaguely aware that there used to be an airport in the Renfrew Area, but I was stunned to discover that the hangar still existed. Since the Flickr photos in your post were taken, it has been nicely restored and is used by the Boys and Girls Club.

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Rutledge%20hangar%203_zpscc1zq3qv.png

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Rutledge%20hangar%202_zpszueviywp.png

The Rutledge Hangar is listed in the Historic Places of Canada:

Heritage Value

The heritage value of the Rutledge Hangar lies in its representation of early twentieth century construction techniques for airplane hangars. Secondary value lies in its association with the establishment of commercial aviation in Calgary.

Calgary's Rutledge Hangar embodies a common construction method for early twentieth century airport hangars in Canada. The building is defined by its 80 foot span "Lamella Arch" composed of dimensioned Douglas fir planks arranged in a pattern of diamond-shaped frames. This framing system rests upon a reinforced concrete foundation and is laterally strengthened by exterior concrete buttresses. The simplicity of the design and the basic building materials made construction relatively easy: erecting the hangar took only three weeks and was completed without any sophisticated machinery. Though lightweight, the "Lamella Arch" was provided with robust stability through the reinforcing concrete elements. The current appearance of the hangar includes several more recent additions, including the two structures located at the east and west ends of the original building. The Rutledge Hangar is the last known extant example of this method of hangar construction in Alberta. HistoricPlaces.ca - HistoricPlaces.ca (http://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=5725&pid=0)

I hadn't heard of the Lamella Arch before. It's a beautiful, elegant design. This photo is not of the Rutledge Hangar, but it shows the simplicity of the construction:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/2699170812_5caed83c61.jpg

I hadn't seen your image before. Where did you find it? The viewpoint is equivalent to a two-mile final for 35L at the International Airport. Nose Creek, in the foreground, has been "canalized" and today, runs in a straight channel, parallel to the railway, in order to make room for the Deerfoot Trail freeway, which now occupies the rest of the valley floor.

How on earth did you find this aerodrome so quickly?

Thanks for the video links. Very nostalgic for me - about the time I first came to Calgary. Trolley buses and DC-8s. That takes me back!

You have control.

[nvubu]

How on earth did you find this aerodrome so quickly?Bit of luck really, i first started searching for 1920s canada airfield - bur couldn't find any with a swimming pool :) Then I remembered this from your previous aerodrome
I thought my location would have been a give away!So I thought to search (using Bing as I avoid Google if possible) in Calgary again and on the YYC Histoy page there is this

YYC Calgary International Airport has come a long way since its inception in 1914. Situated in Bowness, 10 kilometres from the city, the original airfield was comprised of a grass airstrip and a ramshackle hut, which served as both hangar and terminal building.

The Calgary Municipal Airport at Renfrew was established in 1928. Several of the hangars still exist and are in use today, even though the area has been converted to a residential neighbourhood. In 1938, the facility moved to its present location in Calgary's northeast and was christened McCall Field, in honour of Captain Fred McCall, a World War I flying ace and one of Calgary's pioneer aviators.I couldn't find any likely images of Bowness, but the ramshakle hut didn't inspire confidence, then I looked for Calgary Municipal Airport - nothing, added Renfrew, and bingo, second image.
I followed this image down to the cbc website and subsequently tried to find the "several of the hangers still exist" hence the initial request for orientation.

Finally, I managed to notice the first image in the bing list - leads to a flickr site - it's the image before the link to the hanger.
There's an image of Bowness on the cbc website.

I also found the following images

Society of Alberta (https://albertaonrecord.ca/is-ccg-3427) - click on the links of the left for more images
Post No 7 here (http://www.pprune.org/Vintage airport photos - SkyscraperPage Forum) pointed me towards the Glenbow Museum - but the images in the links had gone :(

[nvubu]

May I present the next challenge:

https://nrv5uq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mjD2MSDMCl1x6nspog9fPNXdQoDpGKFXSJCu_jR7fdRMfuJFJkR1q67ZpI JvSqmq8PwcWDKLF0a-hkm_AgQh7lJ23i5ZQhCVgFSAXLQRogWQwAYG-wvH1roZS8FKkATRu1iEu0Ld_ahAxI7pZkpTSbufiEYWglg-4P8-29WIRP9w?width=1024&height=414&cropmode=none
larger image (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161227_01.jpg)


https://0skhxa.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3m18zwHeEwwsR1JAB0CHTtAsc4zLS85PHCntsb2Z19lJLiiUaG2b6O_EPOi j2doalGlrwrlWuKLuC0cIa6UirB8vxnZp5Vl2Xvfg6ul5YZTC160274ihtyI FPs8ZlxT9wTT2MHEBLZac-b30VfYMIaqsoGDGe177asVz_t4uQqs88?width=1024&height=574&cropmode=none
larger image (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161227_02.jpg)


https://amwqda.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mMe3tXYDGnI-K9h9S1zYBkpOVDfyXLVaqyBRMAAurpDPIXj69FZ6q87WWN_hd4yDg8-PcmlZxR57jB2ESRTPauHi5sb_sbJJP7lSrwwO9XeKWVN9J4Y5Q4z_zDjvk7m mlEAIzmoNV_oMmp7ml8kvS3IkFqtMWjt77i4Cd4pZbN78?width=1024&height=667&cropmode=none
larger image (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161227_03.jpg)


Rather muddy
https://m0dsfg.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mrt4TQG_E0JttbzxO9jGeNj8MJU0dcRMrk6vWwxjEgAFsmbjZioFL-jLz2fetbf84KhAqTvQzX5FyGCmjA-QwxiDdiCg1O49UMmddUjwqWdYoJ75TkDJ_8NGVN-qk50PEXHysTw4KZzlqbx-JVtALDt-l8fkzIxZE5bOvQwsIroI?width=1024&height=669&cropmode=none
larger image (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161227_04.jpg)

[kcockayne]

I normally haven't a clue as to where these aerodromes are. And, this is no exception - other than I have an inkling that it might be a French Air Force field somewhere in the North East of France at about the time of The 1st. world war. Other than that, I'm stumped.

[nvubu]

Welcome to the party kcockayne.

2 things correct
In France
1st World War

2 things incorrect
Not in NE France
Not French


I hadn't a clue when I first started on these. Still haven't on some.

[nvubu]

Colombey les Belles - too far east, correct force though.

[nvubu]

I did think this challenge would last a little longer, so extremely well done Jenkins - Issoudun Aerodrome - home of the 3rd Air Instructional Center - it is. I'm going to create a separate thread about it as if I post extra historical photos here, some may have a bit of a moan.

At one point this was the largest aerodrome in the world, and today there is nothing left at all to indicate that flying took place at all - apart from this memorial on the D960 to the NW of the town:

https://n7wcgq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mXTKkZlMq7GLADGb8jJTcuPvZfhToaGr2D_8sywBwfPB5o2Cg2oE-Sb2lLBWEkOcMgOHCmspHL7-JjnYwwqLjjbT01GZRQ1HeD2LIpRHtfwd77BTtjt4zieBEerkyLjzj6xqURRK 7eC6bbux-o1KtF6DDltZcFxBzYkhCQhDHNNw?width=1024&height=505&cropmode=none


Over to you Jenkins

[India Four Two]

Re the Issoudun photos. Checking my TAP credentials.

Mainly Nieuport 12s with an 11 at the gas pump?

[Heathrow Harry]

won't last long.....

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture541-3824.jpg

[nvubu]

In the UK? ......

[Heathrow Harry]

This Sceptered isle indeed....................

[Cows getting bigger]

Bodmin, I think?

[Heathrow Harry]

Indeed - although Ryanair refer to it as Bristol SW or Boston E.....................

Over to Cows..................

[Cows getting bigger]

Thank you. How about this cheeky little number? The runway orientation is roughly East/West.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/1/659/31819211511_8844fc7c9d_c.jpg

[Heathrow Harry]

I thought it might be Inisheer but it's not quite right................

[kcockayne]

I'll throw caution to the wind & reveal my ignorance - La Gomera.

[Cows getting bigger]

No, not La Gomera but you are in the correct ocean.

[nvubu]

I reckon it's in Ireland or Scotland

[Kieron Kirk]

Inis Meain.

Chiarain.

[India Four Two]

Horta in the Azores.

Open House if correct.

[kcockayne]

Yes, my next guess was going to be somewhere in the Azores. But, I don't know where exactly.

[Cows getting bigger]

Horta it is. India Four Two has declared open house.

[jensdad]

Sorry if this seems like I'm being a party-pooper, but would it maybe be worth having a no-Google Maps rule? I know we've got no way of checking but GM seems to take a bit of the fun out of this. Apologies for the Scrooge-like comment - I do appreciate the revival of this thread by I42, nvubu an others.

[Cows getting bigger]

Agreed. As an aside, Horta a few years back. The island has some interesting aviation history.

https://azoresislandhopping.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/dsc_0812.jpg?w=640

[nvubu]

I agree with the no-Google Maps rule if it is the only image being posted - otherwise I've just found a host of locations when checking out all the airfields in Ireland for CGB's challenge. However, when there are old images being posted, and some of mine are 100 years old, posting the equivalent current view in b&w to show the difference/similarities can be a great/only help when things are getting sticky.


I've got one ready if no-one else wants a go :)

[India Four Two]

jensdad,

You raise an interesting point, which hadn't occurred to me before. I freely admit to having used Google Earth to track down posted images. In the case of Horta, my logic was:

1. I knew we were in the Atlantic but the vegetation was too lush to be Scotland or Ireland.

2. Wearing my geologist's hat, I thought the chunk of rock in the foreground looked distinctly igneous and the sloping terrain had the signature of the flanks of a volcano.

3. So I started looking at the Atlantic volcanic islands, starting with the Canaries and then moving to the Azores.

As a retroactive experiment, I tried searching for images, using "Canary airports" and then "Azores airports". It took me about the same amount of time to zero in on Horta as using Google Earth.

I'm happy to try the latter method in the future, but I'm a bit concerned the game may degenerate to a PPRuNe version of Twenty Questions:

France? Yes.
NW France? No
NE France? Yes
Lorraine? No
Alsace? Yes
and so on.

A few years ago a "frequent flyer" here was fond of doing an image search and then asking a few desultory questions before posting the answer. That MO seems to have gone away (at twice the speed of sound :E), thank goodness.

I agree with the no-Google Maps rule if it is the only image being posted .....nvubu,
Can you clarify your post? I don't understand.

[nvubu]

I hadn't taken it to mean don't use GM/GE to search, but rather don't post an image taken from GM/GE as an Aerodrome.

This is a screenshot taken from GE of CGB's challenge - and as such I was meaning I don't think it should be used as the initial image for a challenge.
https://o4c8da.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mVakwknQIUUj0H4wOTtKiBrsuexXEsHPModuktervvaGoRpqX06XvHsX09 0dwNXWnrP7tRcKneqm_7mMY1pmzslppgUgHvyov0hgEHr9x5_UNBNm8uv4UL EYYm__M59jz1G7ku1gG7am3EIqYsmm_pJ1iOhZF05bgd2gD2ViCaLE?width =941&height=479&cropmode=none

However, I think if we had been stuck, it would have been OK to post it up a bit further down the line as a clue - as I have done previously with some of my WW1 aerodromes in Alsace Lorraine.

As for using GE/GM to search for the answer, I wouldn't have found a couple of your ones without GE - following the Mackenzie River at lunchtime was a nice way to spend an hour :ok:

Re Frequent Flyers:
The one I remember didn't even bother asking the desultory questions, but rather just came out with the answer immediately - very frustrating when you have spent some time putting a challenge together with a number of follow-up images :ugh:

[nvubu]

As no-one has posted up a challenge, here's the one I had prepared earlier - click the image for a larger version
https://ylepuq.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mMQ3yv3HX2j_Cm1NLIFkY8x7tG9oilkcod65JA0SJzwzJ79Z-r1l5ung3jMRVaIxYhSNLSgPt9BJ5sa8wCU6i2Ju0-hRUOerQJEZ2pXbM7EFndAAoVSdyOLmuEkcWrgqL-TS5jHr9LQfxDxeotqHsDrrDYcYgDd28Rko8L6pV5cE?width=1024&height=718&cropmode=none (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161229.jpg)

[Heathrow Harry]

I agree with nvubu and India 42 - no GE images for the question and let the discussion run a bit longer before providing clues....

Now above those look like P39 Aircobra's to me - so maybe the Aleutians or S Alaska? Maybe Chignik Lake ??

[Background Noise]

They are taildraggers.

[Heathrow Harry]

P-40 Warhawks??

[nvubu]

Not Aleutians or Alaska.


P-40 Warhawks were certainly stationed there.

[Heathrow Harry]

Akureyri in Iceland looks a possible............. but I don'tthink it was built during the war

[Allan Lupton]

I bid Bluie West One (later Narsarsuaq)

[Heathrow Harry]

Mountains don't look right..........

[nvubu]

I did Narsarsuaq a few pages back - so it isn't that one.

HH - you are very very close, It isn't the current Akureyri airfield, but is certainly prefixed by Akureyri in an accident report I've seen.

If you search for the name the image has stamped on it and is referred to elsewhere - you get an island in the Greek Islands.

edit to add:

go south young man..... but not too far.

[Heathrow Harry]

Melgerdismalar Gliding field?

[albatross]

Glad to see this thread so active.
I missed it.

[nvubu]

Jenkins has the name, I think HH has the location - although I'm not 100% sure of the latter.

I think it probably is where the Melgerdismalar Gliding field is now, but I found a weather website earlier today (with readings from WW2) with a Lon/Lat that put it further north and across the valley away from the mountains - which didn't look right to me. Of course, now I can't find the website :(

Here's another view.
https://yplq9g.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mE_9iGkSUtdr-BN8Ly8S6TVbeUOfI2mHVsUj3tcnndWg4Y_YQMy-_Xb2S3FX5F5G7BF8CPEbtNSTjeIP56ZHkHTjXUB9GVzSzVQDoLkuSyER-3xS-o_FvXjCdUMY64ej0IzNLKry9uavg2WPt0lt8_T6LBt7E5pm58AcnfWTbL10? width=1024&height=739&cropmode=none

So Jenkins has it for the name, but HH for the location.

[India Four Two]

nvubu,

Your second image with the distinctive ridge in the background nails it.

See the ridge in the centre left of this GE view:

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o598/simonyouens/Screen%20Shot%202016-12-29%20at%2011.49.00_zpsixputxm7.png

And as a nice tribute to the gliding connection, there's a photo of a Grunau Baby landing at the airfield (bottom right)!

[nvubu]

albatross - I was surprised how inactive it was when came back to the site. I'm glad to see others are getting back involved as well.


Who's going to be next then :)

[Terry Dactil]

don't post an image taken from GM/GE as an Aerodrome
What exactly is the problem if this is done? :confused:

[nvubu]

It's not really a problem, but it is more interesting with photos, and also in the very first post in the first Which Aerodrome (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/283572-aerodrome.html) thread
As in Which Cockpit, lets try to use elderly photos and not Google Earth pics.

[Terry Dactil]

OK. That makes sense.
Thanks.

[India Four Two]

OK. Here's an "elderly photo", from one of my favourite books, which I acquired from a discard pile in my school's library:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/B9EF69F1-06E9-435C-A4FA-6A3A10205DEE_zps27ihzfiq.jpeg

[nvubu]

Is that a Short S33 biplane?

[India Four Two]

Interesting question. When I posted the picture, I was sure I knew what the aircraft was. After doing some research, I'm not so sure anymore.

However, I do know it was not made by Short.

[Terry Dactil]

Maybe it is a Wright No.1 seaplane?
http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/Putnam/Brit_Early/269-2.jpg

[nvubu]

Damn ... Better not "guess a floatplane" then :) - Terry I thought the pointy end was the front (but I know nothing about aeroplanes) and there a quite a few with the pointy end at the front, as well as a number at the rear as well!

Looks like the right shape for Windermere, Lake District - but I am guessing here


Waterbird & Henry Stanley Adams?

[India Four Two]

Terry,

Wright's not right. ;)


nvubu,

Good guess!

Also, the pointy end is at the front!

[nvubu]

I guess that's a Good guess - wrong, rather than a Good guess - right?

[nvubu]

Or should I have been more precise, Bowness-on-Windermere ?

[India Four Two]

Yess,
Good guess,
Bowness!

[nvubu]

Well blow me down. I have no idea why, but Windermere just jumped out at me from the off. But I looked for floatplanes and came up with Frances McLean and the Short 33 flying under bridges - thought this would be worthy of being in a book.

Is it Herbert Stanley Adams, Waterbird ? - modern link (http://www.pprune.org/Herbert Stanley Adams, Waterbird)


edit to add: OPEN HOUSE

[India Four Two]

nvubu,

Sorry, I missed your reference to Waterbird. I think the picture was taken from Waterbird, but it might have been Waterhen, the successor aircraft.

BTW, your link doesn't work.

The picture was taken by Gertrude Bacon, who marvelled at the fact that she could see the lake bottom. From her book "All About Flying". I have always felt that she must have been Roger Bacon's favourite aunt. ;)
This is a fascinating but little known piece of English aviation history. Lots more information here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakes_Water_Bird

Britain's First Seaplane (http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/JetAgeRMCBritFirstSeaplane.htm)

Waterbird (http://www.waterbird.org.uk/)

Gertrude was an amazing person, with lots of aeronautical firsts to her name:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Bacon

I see that Herbert Stanley Adams was her pilot. You have to admire an Edwardian lady, who not only goes for a joyride in a floatplane, but takes a camera with her! :ok:

This photo had been on my list for a long time, but my copy of the book is in storage. However, I have discovered that a reprint is available and amazingly, the whole book is online, including the pictures!

http://bookdome.com/science/All-About-Flying/index.html#.WGWZuJImTJo

Recommended. The picture of Bowness is in Part 6.

nvubu has the helm!

PS Beatrix Potter was one of group protesting about the aviation activities on Lake Windemere. I've just looked on GE and have seen what the lakefront at Bowness looks like now. Ms. Potter must be rolling in her grave!

[David Thompson]

Apologies for the thread drift but some details of the Waterbird replica can be found here ; Replica of Waterbird seaplane which inspired Winston Churchill is nearing completion - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/replica-waterbird-seaplane-inspired-winston-9393080)

[India Four Two]

David,

No need for apologies. I see from the article that the replica was due to fly in September 2015. Did it fly?

[David Thompson]

No not yet , sadly it appears that the project has ground to a halt . The maiden flight was due to take place on 17 September 2015 but was postponed until Spring 2016 and I've heard nothing since although some dated news does appear on the project website ; Waterbird (http://www.waterbird.org.uk/news.asp) .

[Terry Dactil]

Going back ...
Also, the pointy end is at the front!
... seems like in those days the designers had trouble in deciding where to have the pointy bit.
Notice any design flaw here?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahi16kyfep7jlup/Overly-Clever-French-Gunnery1.jpg?dl=1

[India Four Two]

Notice any design flaw here?

Of course, they've forgotten to make room for a pilot! ;)

[nvubu]

They have no straps for their caps ?


The link I posted was the third one in your list.

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture544-084713.jpg[/IMG]

For the record here is a view of Kassos/Merdiglesmar (south of Grund) taken from Streetview on GE - oas India 42 says its a clear match with the question photo..................

[nvubu]

This morning's submission from me.
https://o4c7da.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mY6ojR9z3LsjnH7VbbF1x3g11ZdmgtH--D1Z4faomR0dw-GrJu9Tojo2lnokNoBCFH99B0M6w6xtQSgxDMI6N6FWlggxrtBjid6N1d-b-UY2yXUVRXaJWoe7C3gaQxgWrPMTCaYjF6-5BMXiVi4ww8LzvWOFQ_jyuTypOhwL4HYY?width=1024&height=907&cropmode=none

[Heathrow Harry]

wow... tough one - somewhere out East I'd guess

[nvubu]

Yes, East it is

[chevvron]

Habbaniya?

[nvubu]

Much further east - not an allied base either.

[jensdad]

At risk of it turning into 'Any Questions' you mentioned earlier ;), I'm going to take a wild guess and say Hiroshima? The fact that it was never an allied base would imply that it was on Japanese soil and not on that of a nation that was occupied by the Japanese?

[India Four Two]

The fields look like they might be in Japan.

Didn't see jensdad's post before I posted.

[nvubu]

It is in Japan. A long way from Hiroshima.

The three features in the image are still recognisable today - although the middle one is no longer an airfield. North is almost straight down.

edit to add: All three features were aircraft related.

[Heathrow Harry]

Aircraft related = ? factories?

but most of those weere in Nagoya which isn't far from Hiroshima

[nvubu]

Yes, the two highlighted are factories.

I've just asked for directions from Hiroshima station via GE and it's about an 850km drive to this location.

I was going to post an overhead from today, but maybe if I give you a few names it might help: Frank, Irving, Frances, Helen, Jill

edit to add: whereas for Nagoya, I would say Paul, Sonia, Edna, Dinah, Grace, Judy

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture546-oizumi.jpg

Ōizumi, Gunma Province - the old Nakajima Aircraft Factory - still visible as ?car plant ? with vans parked on the old runways??? 39 deg 16 min 24 sec N 139 24 2o sec E

named the Koizumi plant, near Nishi-Koizumi station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishi-Koizumi_station). Critically damaged by American bombardment on April 3, 1945. Currently a Sanyo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanyo) plant.

[nvubu]

You got it, although the vans on the runway are on the Koizumi Airfield - here's the original image (the right way up) - click the image for a larger version
https://o4cpda.bl3302.livefilestore.com/y3mOUeBSB2HWTvojxbpvQThqGauPqtm5e49akondBz6uEPhCN6QjYxmCgxUV OUdZ5OjQRotdLlsCb7ZW7cOb-LKiN9YEFzi4hc5ijEH2LHjA_D_DF7TBhycMI3eixUJ2iyyJ5EVnukQWV5Jg6 qe953_U5plCwa1uaVGZKeSn7M4Kts?width=1024&height=859&cropmode=none (http://www.nvubu.co.uk/pprune/20161231.jpg)

Over to you

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture543-171619.jpg

[nvubu]

Scandinavia ?

[Heathrow Harry]

could be.............

[India Four Two]

Well, I think we can rule out Denmark!

Norway?

[nvubu]

I keep getting drawn to Tromsø - but I don't think that's the one - scratch that, just taken another look, doesn't fit the bill :(

[nvubu]

Alta Airport seems to match the near end of the photo, but there doesn't seem enough water for the far end. When I search for images, I can see that this is it.

That was an interesting search of airports in Sweden, Finland and Norway - next time I'll start in the north and work down :)

OPEN HOUSE as I'm out tomorrow.

Happy New Year.

[Heathrow Harry]

Alta it is - nice on a nice day but not so good in bad weather.....

Oddly its really far east - approx the same longitude as the Libyan/Egyptian frontier

Over to you and a Happy New Year to everyone!!!

[Heathrow Harry]

Just noticed Open House so here you go - somewhere a bit warmer..................

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture547-113213.jpg

[nvubu]

Triangular - southern USA ?

[Heathrow Harry]

Possibly Jenkins. possibly................

[India Four Two]

I have to say when I first saw the photo, I immediately thought of the GAFA. :E

[Airclues]

Whyalla Airport, WYA, YWHA.

Open House if correct.

Dave

[Terry Dactil]

And here is a photo in front of the luxurious passenger terminal a few years ago ( it has recently been extended.)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1wp47ul5z552u8o/ccg2.jpg?dl=1

[Terry Dactil]

OK. Seeing we are into triangular airfields in warm climates, try this one.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejnb3ggzzw75zwg/PICT0002-1.JPG?dl=1
Beware though; the photo is more than 50 years old and rwy 02-20 (the vertical one in the picture) is now out of service, although it is still visible in GE.
Also, because of urban encroachment, the threshold of rwy 29 has moved up to the 1,000' touchdown markers.

[chimbu warrior]

Not certain on this one, but is it Tennant Creek?

OH if correct.

[Terry Dactil]

Tennant Creek it is, although it looks a bit different now from when I was building hours for a commercial licence.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsy2kl56fcjnwpm/TC.JPG?dl=1
Hunting about in my old photos, it is sad to see the large number of runways that are now closed. :{

CW has declared 'OPEN HOUSE'

[Allan Lupton]

Can I post a photo like this?

[Heathrow Harry]

Google gives that registration to an Air Nuigini Falcon 900X but its clearly a Fokker F-28 or F-100 - probably the former as I can't see big clamshell reversers

that puts it pre-2004 when they upgraded the fleet.

Edit - http://www.aussieairliners.org/f-28os/airniugini/p2anw.html shows a picture ofthe F-28 with the same registration

[Heathrow Harry]

Lots of the airports/fields have been "improved" since that picture was taken (no doubt at vast cost to the Australian tax-payer) so its hard to see that hangar /terminal.

A quick google of PNG airports 1985 tho' produces some amazing images of long forgotton types - plus an An-124!!!

[chimbu warrior]

Well Alan you've got me there. Definitely an F-28, and late 70's judging by the colour scheme. I am not recognising the background, but it is obviously a port that was served by Air Niugini F-27's as well, given the set of steps in the background on the left-hand side. It is obviously a coastal port, but does not look like any of the PNG ports I recognise. The curved-roof building is what is really throwing me. This is purely a wild guess, but could it be Honiara?

OH if correct.

[nvubu]

Papua New Guinea is the closest I can guess so far.

[Heathrow Harry]

Looks like a crushed coral surface - which puts it coastal - can't see anything around the main bit of PNG - the only "hangar" style building seems to be at the south end of the terminal area at Port Moresby POM

Might be out on their route network

[Heathrow Harry]

Honiara looks a bit to green - this looks really coastal as in on the beach - like the old Jeffman Airport in Sorong or Tarawa

[chimbu warrior]

Definitely not POM. Coastal ports served by the F-28 in those days were WWK, MAG, MAS, KVG, RAB, KIE and LAC. The only crushed coral strips (or environs) back then were MAS and KVG. Apart from BNE and CNS (of which it is neither), HIR was the only other international port served by the F-28, but I don't recall the F-27 going there, hence my confusion.

[Heathrow Harry]

http://www.pprune.org/members/326184-heathrow-harry-albums-what-airfield-picture548-111539.jpg[

MAS Momote seems to be a good possible - it has/had a hangar right on the side of the strip - and it's very coastal

KAV doesn't look to have the same coral surface