All borders to reopen.

[dr dre]

While I don't disagree with your conclusion, you fail to pick up that the key factor in all of this is government support. The USA's CARES Act provided a level of support for airlines provided they didn't furlough. That expired in October and so now the cash tap has been turned off, you'll see the US carriers now really start to pull things back where they can, while also grabbing the opportunity to make some cash where there is opportunity to do so. By comparison, China is subsidising their carriers to the hilt, Air NZ has been drawing on a government loan, and Korea has also helped to provide assistance to some carriers.

Government support is essential for the airline sector to survive whilst pandemic control measures are in place and then regrow once the control measures have been lifted. I wish our federal governmetn was doing far more for our aviation sector.

But the main part of my argument was to debunk the notion that if we just dropped all controls and essentially turn a blind eye to the virus then everything would get back to normal. As the US has shown this is not the case.

[Turnleft080]

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian has hit out at her Queensland counterpart for "rubbing in" the Maroons' State of Origin win via text message instead of taking the state border issue seriously.
Ms Berejiklian said on Sunday night she sent a text to Annastacia Palaszczuk to congratulate her on her re-election as Queensland Premier and reiterate her desire to speak about the border closure to Sydney.
But she said she received no reply until last night when Ms Palaszczuk bragged about Queensland defeating NSW in the Origin I match.
"She replied 'Queenslander, great game' or something to that effect," Ms Berejiklian said today.
"She didn't mention borders or thanks for the congratulations.
"I didn't know whether to be shocked or bemused frankly."

What Gladys is saying the woman up north needs some psychological help.

[blubak]

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian has hit out at her Queensland counterpart for "rubbing in" the Maroons' State of Origin win via text message instead of taking the state border issue seriously.
Ms Berejiklian said on Sunday night she sent a text to Annastacia Palaszczuk to congratulate her on her re-election as Queensland Premier and reiterate her desire to speak about the border closure to Sydney.
But she said she received no reply until last night when Ms Palaszczuk bragged about Queensland defeating NSW in the Origin I match.
"She replied 'Queenslander, great game' or something to that effect," Ms Berejiklian said today.
"She didn't mention borders or thanks for the congratulations.
"I didn't know whether to be shocked or bemused frankly."

What Gladys is saying the woman up north needs some psychological help.
Says it all about where her priorities lie,here she goes again with her childish mind games.
Didnt see her respond to not being allowed into the theme park last week,maybe they should have let her in & locked her up in fantasy land,obviously thats where she lives most of the time.
Again i say theres no doubt the victorian govt has a lot to answer for with the hotel quarantine f up but at least now there seems to be a genuine process in opening up again whereas with queen p every day brings nothing except excuses with no relevance to any facts.

[rattman]

What Gladys is saying the woman up north needs some psychological help.

Maybe gladys should harden the **** up and start looking at her own corruption and that of her party

[Turnleft080]

Victoria has now scored 15 ducks in a row. 15000-20000 tests a day. Still not good enough for the Queen of QLD or the King of WA.
Just following the science. Got to protect our cane toads from getting covid.

[getaway]

Victoria has now scored 15 ducks in a row. 15000-20000 tests a day. Still not good enough for the Queen of QLD or the King of WA.
Just following the science. Got to protect our cane toads from getting covid.
but dodgy anna chukka is allowing up to 100% crowd numbers at Suncorp on Wed night at leagie game. There could be up to 52,500 at game with absolutely no social distancing whatsoever.

Word is, they got greedy with ticket prices (just like with wallabies last Sat-dumped good seats for $49 at last minute) & now dumping seats to try & fill the place + public servants are being given free tickets. Just lucky they got a pay rise so they can buy rum & cokes for $12 a can.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Victoria has now scored 15 ducks in a row. 15000-20000 (tel:15000-20000) tests a day. Still not good enough for the Queen of QLD or the King of WA.
Just following the science. Got to protect our cane toads from getting covid.

I think WA have always said 28 days of no community transmission to allow free travel between states.

[Ragnor]

Who cares about WA and QLD, they have not proven themself of being capable of handling this pandemic be best if borders did remain shut I don’t want dirty QLD ppl in my state low testing rates for all we know it’s tuning rampart through QLD they’re also incapable of managing this virus. VIC is the same at least DA had been willing to learn NSW playbook and by all accounts could be very well under control down there.

[jrfsp]

NZ has just recorded a case in a person arriving from NSW....

So im sure there is still virus circulating in your precious NSW!

[DirectAnywhere]

A person who arrived on 1 Nov....

[Ragnor]

My point is NSW can deal with it and handle it. Other states can’t

[Ladloy]

My point is NSW can deal with it and handle it. Other states can’t
Doesn't sound like it

[Bend alot]

Who cares about WA and QLD,
Obviously from your vast amounts of posts YOU do.

I was happy to wait for the WA border to open, just hope the TOOLS stay out.

[benttrees]

That’s hilarious..... there’s already PLENTY of tools here in W.A !!!!!

[KRviator]

Doesn't sound like itGuess that's why Queensland has never carried their weight in International Arrivals, instead leaving the bulk of their citizens to enter via NSW, and why other states continue to lock out people from NSW, notwithstanding they have demonstrated, time and time again, they can get on top of any outbreaks while keeping their economy going. You're more than welcome to pull the DOTRS international arrival data and compare it yourself, Ladboy, and what it'll show, is those states that have locked out Victorians - and NSWelshmen in particular - are at the same time relying on NSW to act as the major point of entry to Australia for their states' citizens, and carry the lions share of the load.

Queensland - and WA to an even greater extent - are scared shyteless about having an outbreak because their systems have never been tested.

IT's all well and good for Mark McGoose to crow "We've gone 7 months without COVID in our WA community", but what he fails to mention, is that if it gets into the community, they've got zero evidence they can handle the outbreak. Gladys, for all her faults, has demonstrated the exact opposite, several times over and kept her states' economy going. That's something no other Premier can lay claim to.

[601]

they've got zero evidence they can handle the outbreak
We did have a outbreak from 3 females who went to Melbourne on a "shopping expedition" and party hosting and lied on their border declaration claiming to have only been in Sydney.
Charged over falsifying Queensland coronavirus border declaration passes (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-28/queensland-logan-trio-women-court-coronavirus-border-breaches/12683980)

[Ragnor]

That was not handled well at all by Queen P. She failed miserably.

[compressor stall]

Anyone got any ideas why the latest Auckland outbreak which has been shown to have originated from Defence Force personnel at a quarantine facility has made such little news in Australia?

[Green.Dot]

Anyone got any ideas why the latest Auckland outbreak which has been shown to have originated from Defence Force personnel at a quarantine facility has made such little news in Australia?

Probably the same reason Dan and his team kept the Hotel Quarantine/BLM outbreak under wraps for a couple weeks, blaming workplace lunch rooms and rogue citizens as the cause. They hoped the outbreak would be contained before the truth would be uncovered.

Deception however seems to make the average Victorian more hungry to vote for him though.
:ugh:

[KRviator]

We did have a outbreak from 3 females who went to Melbourne on a "shopping expedition" and party hosting and lied on their border declaration claiming to have only been in Sydney.
Charged over falsifying Queensland coronavirus border declaration passes (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-28/queensland-logan-trio-women-court-coronavirus-border-breaches/12683980)That wasn't an outbreak. Not even close!

That was three skanks with faces like a squashed turd thinking the rules didn't apply to them - and again - Qld got lucky they didn't cause a real outbreak with 50+ cases - and they've avoided that by refusing to carry their fair share of the load of international arrivals, preferring to let NSW carry the can, while beating their chest and declaring Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders! And, for the record, I consider myself a Queenslander, but after Anna-Stayaways proclamations, decisions - and her attitude - I wouldn't pi$$ on her if she were on fire. Qld v Everyone else is acceptable at Origin level only.

[Ragnor]

So, 4 cases in SA today. Does Queen P slam the border shut now and wait for another 28 days?! Not sure how she is working it.

[-41]

McGowan already threatened WA residents not to leave WA, as he will close the border without notice if covid was detected interstate.

[dr dre]

So, 4 cases in SA today

Looks like they came out of hotel quarantine. So I guess Sky News is dispatching Peta Credlin to attack the state government because it’s obviously their fault, going by the Dan A standard??

But it was also the ADF who were involved in SA hotel quarantine, and according to the self appointed experts that should’ve 100% prevented any transmission out of hotel quarantine. How could this have happened??

[wheels_down]

So, 4 cases in SA today. Does Queen P slam the border shut now and wait for another 28 days?! Not sure how she is working it.
She will give them a ultimatum of 48hrs to give her a report of where, why and how. If they don’t, then she will have no choice but to put up the wall. Like the Kiwi cases, sometimes it’s not possible to find the source.

It’s this click of the fingers that is destroying many many households, most certainly many originate at QF/VA/Rex groups.

[aussieflyboy]

What a grub McGowan is.

People currently en-route to WA (from SA) are going to land assuming there is no requirement to isolate then get told otherwise. This is why they don’t allow you to film or take pictures in the police check area at Perth Airport. Imagine the tears and anger that will occur today.

[empacher48]

Anyone got any ideas why the latest Auckland outbreak which has been shown to have originated from Defence Force personnel at a quarantine facility has made such little news in Australia?

Probably the same reason why here in NZ we never hear much about what is happening with COVID in Australia. If I didn’t read it here, then according to most NZers, Australia is a COVID hell hole, completely out of control because what is happened in Melbourne is what is happening everywhere else.

COVID in Australia isn’t all that important to NZ. COVID in NZ shouldn’t be important in Australia.

I mean, should the fact that Type 1 diabetics are up in arms over an advertising campaign really make headline news is Australia?? (Unless you think it should, which means Australians care more about NZ than what is made out).

[Ragnor]

I hope someone sneaks a camera in and films the heartache when they’re told to test and then taken away to isolate for 14 days.

[SOPS]

What a grub McGowan is.

People currently en-route to WA (from SA) are going to land assuming there is no requirement to isolate then get told otherwise. This is why they don’t allow you to film or take pictures in the police check area at Perth Airport. Imagine the tears and anger that will occur today.

You wait to see the tears when the WA border is slammed shut again !!!

[PoppaJo]

This is why QF and VA are screwed for the foreseeable future. Open one week, closed the next.

It appears the only two states willing to work together with rolling daily cases is NSW and VIC. That alone is not going to get the crew bases in those two states up and running significantly.

[Square Bear]

So Adelaide has 3 cases....will Queen P shut out that city.....how can any airline operate under such uncertainty.

With only 40 days to Christmas, a few more cases will blow the two 14 day cycles required by QLD.

[SOPS]

Looking at the news in Perth tonight.. I would not mind betting that WA will shut it’s borders again.

[Ladloy]

Looks like they came out of hotel quarantine. So I guess Sky News is dispatching Peta Credlin to attack the state government because it’s obviously their fault, going by the Dan A standard??

But it was also the ADF who were involved in SA hotel quarantine, and according to the self appointed experts that should’ve 100% prevented any transmission out of hotel quarantine. How could this have happened??

LNP good
Labor bad

[Green.Dot]

LNP good
Labor bad

Whatever Dre is smoking must be good

[chookcooker]

Looks like they came out of hotel quarantine. So I guess Sky News is dispatching Peta Credlin to attack the state government because it’s obviously their fault, going by the Dan A standard??

But it was also the ADF who were involved in SA hotel quarantine, and according to the self appointed experts that should’ve 100% prevented any transmission out of hotel quarantine. How could this have happened??
If you think that trained ADF personnel are as much of a risk as unemployed nobodies hired after a 5 minute whatsapp interview, given next to zero extra training and then end up rooting those in the actual quarantine, then good luck to you.
Nobody has suggested any policy is foolproof, but some slices of cheese have larger holes than others.

[Ragnor]

Wonder is Rex jet has spare cash for extended border closure. Reality is this is how it will be until a proven vaccine.

[galdian]

If google's to be believed deaths are:
- VIC 819 NSW 53 TAS 13....rest of state/territories single digits.

From the initial mess that was the Ruby Princess one would have expected NSW would be the wasteland of Australia, not so. Victoria is. By a factor of 15 times or more.
Unless you're a moron there's gotta be a reason for that.

Anyone who thinks Chairman Dan is "the man" please go and explain it to the families and extended families - all 819 of them - why Victoria has been so successful thanks to Dan the Man.

On jetblast, US thread a video of Bill Maher discussing the Democrats conundrum of why people won't vote for them, concepts such as "woke", "PC", "closed minds", "tribalism" and "common sense" get mentioned.
For anyone capable of thought and consideration well worth watching - and get a few laughs as well.

819 deaths all because of a "creeping assumption".
Someone was responsible for signing the contracts for the $30million hotel contracts - no "creeping assumption" there - on the basis of no signed agreement, no money.

[Fonz121]

On jetblast, US thread a video of Bill Maher discussing the Democrats conundrum of why people won't vote for them...

I don’t know how to break this to you....

[Ladloy]

If you think that trained ADF personnel are as much of a risk as unemployed nobodies hired after a 5 minute whatsapp interview, given next to zero extra training and then end up rooting those in the actual quarantine, then good luck to you.
Nobody has suggested any policy is foolproof, but some slices of cheese have larger holes than others.
Just like how the feds essentially neglected aged care and Victorians suffered the consequences for it. More to the story than just a bunch of security personnel.

[galdian]

I don’t know how to break this to you....

Appears likely haven't won the senate.

If Trump was so bad and the Democrats platform so good why didn't they get the clean sweep and absolute control?
Because not enough people voted for them.

Why......??

[Ragnor]

I hope the PM, who by now needs to grow a set and step in gives WA a lot of pressure, Maybe not actually the closure only got a 5 second mention on the news here on the East.

In lighter more interesting news Qantas turns 100 today and Queen P up in the wicked North is celebrating hosting the largest sporting crowd in the world for 2020 Wednesday night. Go the Blues.

[Ladloy]

Appears likely haven't won the senate.

If Trump was so bad and the Democrats platform so good why didn't they get the clean sweep and absolute control?
Because not enough people voted for them.

Why......??
I'm sorry, can you point me in the direction of a GOP senate majority?

[galdian]

I'm sorry, can you point me in the direction of a GOP senate majority?

Can you point me in the direction of a Democrat senate majority?

Happy to be corrected but figures I see indicate GOP 50, DEM 46 and OTHER 2 so GOP have the block numbers to say NO NO NO at will, DEMs do NOT have the block numbers to pass legislation unhindered.

[Ladloy]

Can you point me in the direction of a Democrat senate majority?

Happy to be corrected but figures I see indicate GOP 50, DEM 46 and OTHER 2 so GOP have the block numbers to say NO NO NO at will, DEMs do NOT have the block numbers to pass legislation unhindered.
There's two more elections as a run off for the senate and Harris also has a vote in the senate as VP. The independents are Bernie Sanders and Angus King who caucus for Democrat. Never said democrats won, but dispelling the lies above saying Republicans won.

[KRviator]

SA is on the increase. 3, then 4 yesterday, and now 17 cases which I'm guessing are all community transmission. Known community transmission, but still community transmission nonetheless. How it got out of the medi-hotel will raise questions, from what I've read Patient Zero worked there and brought it home to her family.

South Australia's worst cluster to date has gone from bad to worse with 17 cases now tied to the family outbreak.

Speaking to Adelaide’s 5AA Radio this morning, South Australia’s chief public health officer Dr Nicola Spurrier confirmed the Parafield cluster was growing at a rapid rate.

Hungry Jacks Port Adelaide has also been closed and is the latest venue to shut for deep cleanign.

Dr Spurrier described the outbreak as “very serious”.

South Australia yesterday reported three local coronavirus cases among a family that has members working in hotel quarantine, aged and health care and a large prison.

[chookcooker]

Just like how the feds essentially neglected aged care and Victorians suffered the consequences for it. More to the story than just a bunch of security personnel.
yes that explains why the aged care deaths in other states is so high

[Ladloy]

yes that explains why the aged care deaths in other states is so high
Newmarch house?

[SOPS]

WA Health Minister being interviewed at the moment. From the way he is speaking, I would not be surprised if the WA border is closed again today.

[-41]

Doubtful that any reasonable person (in WA) would tempt a holiday or family reunion involving interstate travel now with the threat of 14 days isolation without income on return.

[JustinHeywood]

Just like how the feds essentially neglected aged care and Victorians suffered the consequences for it. More to the story than just a bunch of security personnel.

What? Did the Feds ‘neglect’ age care ONLY in Victoria?

That argument makes no sense at all.

[chookcooker]

Newmarch house?

17 deaths. A tragedy.
now do that for vic aged care deaths.
in fact do a bar graph of aged care deaths by state and make sure to leave a tonne of room on the y axis for when you get to Victoria.

[chookcooker]

There's two more elections as a run off for the senate and Harris also has a vote in the senate as VP. The independents are Bernie Sanders and Angus King who caucus for Democrat. Never said democrats won, but dispelling the lies above saying Republicans won.

under what circumstances does the VP get a vote in the senate??

[GaryGnu]

under what circumstances does the VP get a vote in the senate??
As the tie breaker in case of a 50-50 split.

[Square Bear]

Doubtful that any reasonable person (in WA) would tempt a holiday or family reunion involving interstate travel now with the threat of 14 days isolation without income on return.

Bunch of tourist X ADL arrived in CNS by air just after the announcement of QLD imposing Border restrictions on those from SA. Apparently the Holiday has now turned from fun in the sun to enduring 14 days Quarantine.

Would your risk leisure airline travel anywhere in AUS with the State Premiers closing borders at the slightest hint of Covid?

[galdian]

There's two more elections as a run off for the senate and Harris also has a vote in the senate as VP. The independents are Bernie Sanders and Angus King who caucus for Democrat. Never said democrats won, but dispelling the lies above saying Republicans won.

That's fine, presently the GOP has control of the Senate - but that could change....or not.

Point was if there was so much feeling against GOP/Trump the DEMs should have had a great chance to win all 3 (Whitehouse/Reps/Senate) with clear majorities - that didn't happen.

Why??

[Green.Dot]

Would your risk leisure airline travel anywhere in AUS with the State Premiers closing borders at the slightest hint of Covid?

Not the Birthday present for Qantas that AJ was hoping for

[SOPS]

And as I predicted, WA border now closed to SA.

[blubak]

What? Did the Feds ‘neglect’ age care ONLY in Victoria?

That argument makes no sense at all.
They neglect it right across the country,the operators want to make big profits out of it & they achieve it by being allowed to employ a casualised workforce at the lowest pay possible.
Of course the hotel quarantine caused a lot of it but dont forget who controls the aged care system,the conditions are not unique to victoria.

[Ladloy]

That's fine, presently the GOP has control of the Senate - but that could change....or not.

Point was if there was so much feeling against GOP/Trump the DEMs should have had a great chance to win all 3 (Whitehouse/Reps/Senate) with clear majorities - that didn't happen.

Why??
Less populated states are over represented in the US senate, just like the electoral college doesn't reflect how big Biden's win was. Just by raw votes it's the biggest margin since Reagan.

[dr dre]

There’s a real question that needs to be asked.

The two significant outbreaks in Australia (Melbourne and now Adelaide) have come as a result of international arrival hotel quarantine breakouts. Regardless of procedures used it’s too much of a risk to house arrivals in hotels in the middle of major cities and allow workers at the hotel and dealing with the arrivals to be in the same environment and then wander freely around these packed cities on their time off.

Unless we want to have this problem continue to re-occur over the next 12 months, it’s time to lobby the Federal Government to direct all arrivals to remote facilities (ie Alice Springs or Christmas Island) or have them in full facilities/camps on the outskirts of major cities with a requirement for staff dealing with them to themselves be housed in that facility for the duration of their employment.

Otherwise all of us won’t be able to handle this lack of certainty over the next 12 months.

[Green.Dot]

Spot on Doctor, I agree with you with this one.

Australia has dodged a bullet (somewhat accidentally at a National level) in almost eliminating COVID.

Let’s keep dodging that bullet.

[jrfsp]

There’s a real question that needs to be asked.

The two significant outbreaks in Australia (Melbourne and now Adelaide) have come as a result of international arrival hotel quarantine breakouts. Regardless of procedures used it’s too much of a risk to house arrivals in hotels in the middle of major cities and allow workers at the hotel and dealing with the arrivals to be in the same environment and then wander freely around these packed cities on their time off.

Unless we want to have this problem continue to re-occur over the next 12 months, it’s time to lobby the Federal Government to direct all arrivals to remote facilities (ie Alice Springs or Christmas Island) or have them in full facilities/camps on the outskirts of major cities with a requirement for staff dealing with them to themselves be housed in that facility for the duration of their employment.

Otherwise all of us won’t be able to handle this lack of certainty over the next 12 months.

Fully Agree...however that would require the Feds to do something, other than hand over control to the states and then stand back as issues unfold.

[getaway]

apparently lots of false positives with testing.

Forget about cases. Cases don't mean deaths in general population.

We must reopen all borders now.

What else are we going to do ? Open & close them everytime we get a few cases in next 10 years ?

No one knows if vaccines will actually work or have no long term side effects.

This video gives an interesting view on the whole corona con job

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy3tP-BW5do&feature=youtu.be

[Turnleft080]

There’s a real question that needs to be asked.

The two significant outbreaks in Australia (Melbourne and now Adelaide) have come as a result of international arrival hotel quarantine breakouts. Regardless of procedures used it’s too much of a risk to house arrivals in hotels in the middle of major cities and allow workers at the hotel and dealing with the arrivals to be in the same environment and then wander freely around these packed cities on their time off.

Unless we want to have this problem continue to re-occur over the next 12 months, it’s time to lobby the Federal Government to direct all arrivals to remote facilities (ie Alice Springs or Christmas Island) or have them in full facilities/camps on the outskirts of major cities with a requirement for staff dealing with them to themselves be housed in that facility for the duration of their employment.

Otherwise all of us won’t be able to handle this lack of certainty over the next 12 months.
Plenty of camping available at Alice. Pitch a tent under the wing of a A380. Drink beer watch the cricket on your device. Wacko 2 weeks of star gazing the milky way.
NT version of Birdsville races flyin.

[Buster Hyman]

It's such a pity that this has degenerated into an argument based on Political persuasion rather than objective debate. There'd be very few people who would be able to say they avoided going down this path.

The posturing & point scoring makes it sound like we've beaten COVID and are in the Post Mortem of the crisis, not in a Seasonal lull.

in fact do a bar graph of aged care deaths by state and make sure to leave a tonne of room on the y axis for when you get to Victoria.
Not hard to find. https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-cases-in-aged-care-services-residential-care

What is hard to find, is accurate & consistent data on the Vic Gov websites. There's either 180 or 159 PSRAC facilities in Vic out of a total of 768 facilities, depending on the website.

We're debating without all the data.

[dr dre]

My wife is a front line COVID health care worker. So she should be packed up and sent off to the desert for the next 12mths or so away from family, friends and a normal life, just so you can “handle this lack of certainty” a bit better.

Well obviously there is a weak point, and that’s the hotel quarantine for international travellers and the staff who work in them. It’s going to cause rolling shut down after shut down with no end in sight unless a different approach is taken.

It may have to be a move to a secure facility. Staff could work a roster similar to FIFO workers, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks quarantine, 2 weeks off. If mining FIFO workers can do it then healthcare staff can too. It should only be for a year or so. Yep it’ll be costly, but nowhere near the cost of the breakouts from hotel quarantine in major cities and the ongoing uncertainty with travel that’ll cause. A lot of airline and other employees are out of work and won’t get back to work until this nationwide problem is sorted.

So it’s time for the Federal government to get their act together, if they have to offer big $$$ to get the staff (just like how mining companies pay cooks and cleaners big $$$ to stay in remote mining camps for weeks on end) so be it. The overall cost to taxpayers will be less than these constant major city breakouts.

Unless someone has a better approach? Because the current system clearly isn’t working.

[TimmyTee]

With so many unemployed, and hotel quarantine jobs clearly in hot demand, why not only employ people from single person households?
These “large families” quickly spreading the virus are ridiculous.
PC and equal opportunity crap and all that can get stuffed.

Yes, single people will still mix with outsiders, but to nowhere near the same extent as a crammed household, including kids and the elderly (which of course were living in this outbreak household..)

It’s insane that this infected person is living in a big household, with family members in several other high risk fields.
Employing single people would drastically lower the likelihood of the virus jumping from the hotel worker, and at very least would buy time between the initial detection of the returned traveller and the worker spreading it to others.

[dr dre]

Emp,lying single people would drastically lower the likelihood of the virus jumping from the hotel worker, and at very least would buy time between the initial detection of the returned traveller and the worker spreading it to others.

I think the amount of available qualified staff who are single and live alone would be very small. They still would have to buy food and do all the other necessities of modern life which involve coming into contact with others and potentially risk the spread of the virus.

Maybe even if we relocated the quarantine hotels to more remote cities or ones with less connecting flights to other state capitals. Maybe a Townsville or Rockhampton instead of Brisbane? A Mildura instead of Melbourne or Adelaide? Although I think a fully remote option like Christmas Island, maybe Curtin, maybe Alice Springs?? Time to activate some of the military bases in the north perhaps? Anything’s better than the CBD of all our major cities and the harm to our national economy that occurs when a breakout inevitably occurs.

[C441]

I wonder if the lack of attendance recording in pubs, restaurants and numerous other public areas will come back to bite the South Australian government.
On a 4-day trip to Adelaide 4 weekends ago we weren't once asked to record our attendance.

[chookcooker]

As the tie breaker in case of a 50-50 split.
yes I know but old mate either intentionally or unintentionally insinuated he/she held an aditional vote. Was seeking to clarify their understanding


basically the VP vote is moot if either party holds the senate apart from exceptional circumstances

[chookcooker]

It's such a pity that this has degenerated into an argument based on Political persuasion rather than objective debate. There'd be very few people who would be able to say they avoided going down this path.

The posturing & point scoring makes it sound like we've beaten COVID and are in the Post Mortem of the crisis, not in a Seasonal lull.

Not hard to find. https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-cases-in-aged-care-services-residential-care

What is hard to find, is accurate & consistent data on the Vic Gov websites. There's either 180 or 159 PSRAC facilities in Vic out of a total of 768 facilities, depending on the website.

We're debating without all the data.

absoultely.
however, again, when choosing my last slice of Swiss cheese Il go with the ADF over unemployed nobodies after a 5 minute whatsapp interview.

[Global Aviator]

I think the amount of available qualified staff who are single and live alone would be very small. They still would have to buy food and do all the other necessities of modern life which involve coming into contact with others and potentially risk the spread of the virus.

Maybe even if we relocated the quarantine hotels to more remote cities or ones with less connecting flights to other state capitals. Maybe a Townsville or Rockhampton instead of Brisbane? A Mildura instead of Melbourne or Adelaide? Although I think a fully remote option like Christmas Island, maybe Curtin, maybe Alice Springs?? Time to activate some of the military bases in the north perhaps? Anything’s better than the CBD of all our major cities and the harm to our national economy that occurs when a breakout inevitably occurs.

This has been suggested many times by many people. In fact the government has been provided many different solutions from many different private enterprises, not dissimilar to the Howard Springs set up. However the government and DFAT say they have it all under control.

Until the general public realise how desperate the plight of the Aussie overseas is there will be little change.

This latest Adelaide thing is??? Let’s hope State of Origin is ‘safe’.

[dr dre]

This has been suggested many times by many people. In fact the government has been provided many different solutions from many different private enterprises, not dissimilar to the Howard Springs set up. However the government and DFAT say they have it all under control’.

It’s not so much the Feds saying they have it under control, it’s the fact they’ve thrown it to state governments at the current border openings (4/5 major city airports) and the states have take the easiest option for them, bus them to a hotel in the city and hope that a staff member doesn’t spread the big. Hasn’t worked twice now.

Usually governments are shamed into action. The pressure has to be put back on the Federal Government to take responsibility for quarantining international arrivals in secure remote locations. What will it cost? Tens of millions? A few hundred million? Current cost of one hotel quarantine breakout in Victoria - 7 to 9 billion. Willing to have a few more of those over the next year?

[compressor stall]

C441 - It's also not just the recording.

A couple of weeks ago I was in a state with no recent COVID history where I was eating breakfast outside and the waitress came around and proffered me the clipboard and pen onto which I was to write my name for contact tracing.

I duly complied, and commented somewhat wryly, "What with the same pen all the everyone else has used?" She looked at me blankly, and I said again. She had no idea what I was on about.

The most dangerous states in Aus for an outbreak are the ones where the public - luckily - has not had to be worried about the virus transmission and don't know how to take the most simple precautions. Go to hotels around the rest of the world these days and there is a pile of new clean pens and a basket of used pens at reception. No it's not perfect but it's another 90% barrier. No menus at restaurants either - all QR. Another layer reducing transmission.

[Square Bear]

Dr,

Wouldnt the problem be that there are not that many places for the Feds to put the returning Aussies.And whilst I would have excepted a Van, or a tent in the Desert, I am very sure that the average overseas Aussie returnee would not, at least without a whinge and then a very supportive public outcry regarding a minimum standard of a 5 star hotel.

And even there lays the problem...a tent or Van in the desert would have to be on ground that is generally under control of a State or territory, not the Feds..

MANUS Island perhaps...but imagine the scream from the left about that...just like when Xmas Island was used for returnees from China.

Solution...mmm not from this forum I think, as as great as we are at solving problems......Constitutional change is a huge step outside our gambit.

[Potsie Weber]

Well obviously there is a weak point, and that’s the hotel quarantine for international travellers and the staff who work in them. It’s going to cause rolling shut down after shut down with no end in sight unless a different approach is taken.

It may have to be a move to a secure facility. Staff could work a roster similar to FIFO workers, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks quarantine, 2 weeks off. If mining FIFO workers can do it then healthcare staff can too. It should only be for a year or so. Yep it’ll be costly, but nowhere near the cost of the breakouts from hotel quarantine in major cities and the ongoing uncertainty with travel that’ll cause. A lot of airline and other employees are out of work and won’t get back to work until this nationwide problem is sorted.

So it’s time for the Federal government to get their act together, if they have to offer big $$$ to get the staff (just like how mining companies pay cooks and cleaners big $$$ to stay in remote mining camps for weeks on end) so be it. The overall cost to taxpayers will be less than these constant major city breakouts.

Unless someone has a better approach? Because the current system clearly isn’t working.

No! Passing the problem off to someone else or somewhere else is not the answer. Everyone has to do their bit until there is widespread vaccination and immunity. It is so unfair and un-Australian to see this attitude endemic in our society. Moderate social distancing with hyper vigilance and strict contact tracing ability is how we can all live together in this environment and stymie outbreaks before they become widespread. It’s not that hard and all it takes is a few sensible measures that EVEYBODY abides by.

[Green.Dot]

It’s not that hard and all it takes is a few sensible measures that EVEYBODY abides by.

And therein lies OUR problem

[WhisprSYD]

I wonder if the lack of attendance recording in pubs, restaurants and numerous other public areas will come back to bite the South Australian government.
On a 4-day trip to Adelaide 4 weekends ago we weren't once asked to record our attendance.

complacency may be what blows the flames on this outbreak, and it’s something that a few certain premiers may need to learn a thing or 2 from.
2 in particular have been sprouting garbage that they’ve been keeping their states COVID free by slamming the borders shut - this in turn leads to complacency which shows in testing numbers, adherence to social distancing, tracing etc.

This whole Adelaide cluster only surfaced because an 80 year old showed up at the ER and then got tested there as part of normal hospital procedure. I’m assuming that means there were days of worsening symptoms with no tests up until the point that a trip to the ER was needed.
Contrast that with Sydney where 20,000 + are turning out daily for tests on advice that there’s traces of covid in the sewerage.

[Ragnor]

Queen P must be frothing at the mouth today that she slammed the border shut. Seeing QLD is only capable of making one decision a month we will reconvene 26th December or will they be taking the public holiday off?

[KRviator]

And then there's Gladys - Still keeping her economy going while not shoving a pineapple up the asre of every CrowEater by leaving the borders to SA open...

[goodonyamate]

Only 1 case in SA from yesterday’s testing blitz. Obviously more results to be processed but the premier seemed pretty positive.

[rattman]

Queen P must be frothing at the mouth

Just like you are

[WhisprSYD]

Only 1 case in SA from yesterday’s testing blitz. Obviously more results to be processed but the premier seemed pretty positive.

well done if it’s contained that quickly.

poor form by the states clicking their fingers and shutting their borders at the whiff of a cluster. Only 3 states I’d be confident booking a holiday in the next 6 months would be NSW, VIC and SA funnily enough.

[myshoutcaptain]

well done if it’s contained that quickly.

poor form by the states clicking their fingers and shutting their borders at the whiff of a cluster. Only 3 states I’d be confident booking a holiday in the next 6 months would be NSW, VIC and SA funnily enough.

Not if you live in WA.

Crew who passed through ADL since Nov 7 have been given retrospective 14 days isolation in WA. Great job Marko.:mad::mad:

[Turnleft080]

Queen P must be frothing at the mouth today that she slammed the border shut. Seeing QLD is only capable of making one decision a month we will reconvene 26th December or will they be taking the public holiday off?
The reason she's frothing from the month she gets her medical advice from the journal of Trump. Pine-O-clean injections does the trick.
Don't get me wrong, she is not a communist or a socialist, she is a trumpunist. When she has a press conference she smiles and talks at the same time meaning,
"Were gonna make QLD great again. I'm so glad Donald won't be stuck in the White House for the next 4 years because we could use him subdividing and making division in this country.
Building walls are making a come back, we have seen the ring of steel around Melbourne so we are seriously looking at a 10m wall
at the border so we can keep those NSW/VIC illegals, covid lepers, and any other horrible diseases from entering the greatest state on the planet."

Funny dream that one, Brisbane Airport plane spotters if you see a Trump 757 on the tarmac please report it immediately.

[rattman]

The reason she's frothing from the month she gets her medical advice from the journal of Trump. Pine-O-clean injections does the trick.
Don't get me wrong, she is not a communist or a socialist, she is a trumpunist. .

Dude lay off the drugs, they are messing with your brain

[dr dre]

Prominent epidemiologists now calling for the ending of international arrival hotel quarantine in the middle of cities:

South Australian cluster shows we need to stop hotel quarantine in cities: epidemiologist (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/sa-cluster-shows-we-need-to-stop-hotel-quarantine-in-major-citie/12886556)

Infectious diseases expert and epidemiologist Mary-Louise McLaws told Virginia Trioli the Adelaide cluster shows why hotel quarantine programs should be shut down in favour of purpose built quarantine stations.
"Hotel quarantines were a great idea to get Australians and residents back home, but it should only have been an interim idea," Professor McLaws said.
"We do need to start thinking about a purpose built environment."

South Australia’s COVID outbreak - Adrian Esterman Professor of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, University of South Australia (https://theconversation.com/south-australias-covid-outbreak-what-we-know-so-far-and-what-needs-to-happen-next-150160)

In a situation like this, we should ask why we continue to operate high-risk quarantine hotels in the middle of a city. It would be much safer to quarantine people away from communities, like we did on Christmas Island (https://theconversation.com/yes-theres-merit-in-quarantining-people-on-christmas-island-to-prevent-the-spread-of-coronavirus-130879) earlier in the pandemic.

[Ragnor]

What’s your proposal? If they can’t arrive via Sydney which over half do who else do you sentence to take these infectious ppl. Maybe WA could take a few more send them to an outback station oh but they wouldn’t do that would they.

[jrfsp]

The helpful solution is if the Feds took ownership and stood up Defense bases. Plenty of these have transport solutions and capacity to build temporary housing. Staffed using defense personnel / medics, with repatriation to the nearest major city following 2 weeks isolation. RAAF Learmonth, Curtin, Scherger, Tindal at a minimum.

[Square Bear]

jrfsp,

I wouldn’t want the see military bases used for Covid Isolation at all, I would prefer those that might be called upon to defend the country to be as far removed from Covid as possible.

Take google search tour relating to US Carriers Roosevelt and Reagan to consider what might occur should our Defence Forces be in a position to contract Covid.

[Malakor1]

The helpful solution is if the Feds took ownership and stood up Defense bases. Plenty of these have transport solutions and capacity to build temporary housing. Staffed using defense personnel / medics, with repatriation to the nearest major city following 2 weeks isolation. RAAF Learmonth, Curtin, Scherger, Tindal at a minimum.

Probably harder to enact than you think. RAAF Learmonth is used frequently by various squadrons and when they isolated some people there earlier this year before transporting them to Christmas it caused a lot of hassle with ADF members not able to use the facilities for up to 2 weeks after they left.

RAAF Tindal is an active fighter base with most members living on base with their families - not a great move.

Scherger and Curtin are bare bases and have minimal if any facilities in place. I guess the government could build a tin city of dongas but would need significant investment.

[KRviator]

Probably harder to enact that you. RAAF Learmonth is used frequently by various squadrons and when they isolated some people there earlier this year before transporting them to Christmas it caused a lot of hassle with ADF members not able to use the facilities for up to 2 weeks after they left.

RAAF Tindal is an active fighter base with most members living on base with their families - not a great move.

Scherger and Curtin are bare bases and have minimal if any facilities in place. I guess the government could build a tin city of donnas but would need significant investment.Nothing wrong with Scheger. Spent many a week there in a previous life, both wearing the spots and dots and with Ronny. Plenty of demountables, or at least, there were, and if not, there's plenty of space for 11x11's and stretchers in the aircraft shelters. Depends how badly people want to come home, and how much ownership the Fed's want to take...

"What's that, Mr & Ms returning citizen? You don't want to sleep in a tent for a fortnight? That's fine, no hard feelings. When COVID is beaten, once and for all, you're welcome to come home then. But until that time, the door's closed...."

If I were running things, that's exactly what I'd do...A bunch of tents in half the shelters, meals served in hot-boxes the same way diggers get them in the field and some movies on a projector at night. It's not meant to be a bloody holiday but a means to get you home without bringing the pestilence with you. Given the choice between being stuck overseas wishing I was home, or sleeping on a cot at Scherger for 2 weeks, I know what I'd rather!

[Ragnor]

Looking like Morro xmas dream is coming to a screaming halt! WA and QLD SLAMMING (not sure why the media need to use that word) their borders shut, it would appear the only place that looks like getting a look in is Victoria ironically. Forget about WA for NSW that guy is on a crazy power trip and is getting a kick out of this as for SA and NSW can't meet QLD ridiculous 28 days by the one day a month that Queen P can make a decision on the 26th. Why does the WA and QLD CMOs have vast differences in medical advise than other in the country and even the Fed CMO I'm sure they have read the same books.

One thing is certain now the public's confidant's in Australia, if thats what we call our self, will be gone for the long term due to lack of confidence at these borders being closed mid flight.

[blubak]

Only 1 case in SA from yesterday’s testing blitz. Obviously more results to be processed but the premier seemed pretty positive.
5 new cases in SA yesterday with a RECORD 6000 tests.
Wonder what the usual daily test figures are?
Victoria constantly gets caned for whatever reason by a couple of dilusional premiers but why dont we hear about the low testing rates in some of these states.

[Ragnor]

5 new cases in SA yesterday with a RECORD 6000 tests.
Wonder what the usual daily test figures are?
Victoria constantly gets caned for whatever reason by a couple of dilusional premiers but why dont we hear about the low testing rates in some of these states.


Those testing rates are very good for SA their average is 1400-2000 (https://www.covid-19.sa.gov.au/home/dashboard) just like Queen P. But if you go off the capital city population, yesterday for example ML tested 0.35% of their population 17,412 test with just under 5 million people, Sydney only did 8588 with a population 5.2 million little under 0.16% (thats very low for SY usually around 0.32%) Adelaide 6000 test with 1.3 million 0.45% so pretty good.

[rattman]

Scherger and Curtin are bare bases and have minimal if any facilities in place. I guess the government could build a tin city of dongas but would need significant investment.

Theres are lots tourist islands that could be repurposed. From the start I was thinking that getting chartered aircraft fly them in scherger where the passengers go through immigration and initial medical screening and testing. From there loaded onto smaller aircraft and flown to hamiliton where they quarantine or transferred to other islands or remote inland facilities. While the hamiliton island might have issues with their island being turned into a "plague island" they might not. The thing about hamilion is its reletively close to major medical center in townsville also a large military bases around for support

[Green.Dot]

Theres are lots tourist islands that could be repurposed. From the start I was thinking that getting chartered aircraft fly them in scherger where the passengers go through immigration and initial medical screening and testing. From there loaded onto smaller aircraft and flown to hamiliton where they quarantine or transferred to other islands or remote inland facilities. While the hamiliton island might have issues with their island being turned into a "plague island" they might not. The thing about hamilion is its reletively close to major medical center in townsville also a large military bases around for support

I’d say that’s a more appropriate idea than KRviator’s idea of “all sitting around and watching a movie on a projector at night” at a RAAF bare base. Can’t see that meeting the pub test of keeping people isolated from each other.

I hope the Federal Govt is exploring all options. The cost of getting something like this operational is minuscule compared to another Melbourne style lockdown.

[Global Aviator]

Theres are lots tourist islands that could be repurposed. From the start I was thinking that getting chartered aircraft fly them in scherger where the passengers go through immigration and initial medical screening and testing. From there loaded onto smaller aircraft and flown to hamiliton where they quarantine or transferred to other islands or remote inland facilities. While the hamiliton island might have issues with their island being turned into a "plague island" they might not. The thing about hamilion is its reletively close to major medical center in townsville also a large military bases around for support

Plenty of private options, the States and Territories and feds have been given countless viable propositions. Most ignored. It doesn’t help how states, territories and feds don’t play together nicely. Some worse than others as we have seen. So much hypocrisy and double standards.

[jrfsp]

It is likely we'll have another 12 months of quarantine, we cannot afford more shutdowns.
Yet the fed gov does nothing to move away from the CBD hotel process.

[SOPS]

Seems to be a recurring theme. Person from large migrant family, working as hotel security guard and in other jobs, gets infected and spreads virus to family and others through contact in their other job.

It’s Victoria all over again.

[dr dre]

Seems to be a recurring theme. Person from large migrant family, working as hotel security guard and in other jobs, gets infected and spreads virus to family and others through contact in their other job.

It’s Victoria all over again.

It's because Australians aren't willing to do that dirty work or aren't willing to pay the price to and expect it to be done on the cheap, so cheaper migrant labour has to be used. They live together because they are paid so poorly it's the only way they can survive. They probably don't have a car so need to take public transport to and from work, further increasing risk of spread. Might be working on casual contracts without sick leave if they attempt to call in sick. Might be concerned about their visa situation if they fail to show to work.

Don't blame them for the employment situation Australians have created. The Federal Government wants hotel quarantine done on the cheap in the easiest place, major city CBD hotels with cheap labour. They should be using more remote locations. Epidemiologists agree. The Federal Government doesn't want to spend the money they need to so we can have a safe quarantine system.

[rattman]

Looking like Morro xmas dream is coming to a screaming halt! WA and QLD SLAMMING .

****ting on AP for closing the border and yet here is SA going into a tougher lockdown that VIC. Man I would hate to be as wrong as often as you are

[Buster Hyman]

The Federal Government wants hotel quarantine done on the cheap in the easiest place, major city CBD hotels with cheap labour. They should be using more remote locations. Epidemiologists agree. The Federal Government doesn't want to spend the money they need to so we can have a safe quarantine system.
Oh, so the Feds have taken over the State's responsibilities? Missed that on the news. Might want to let Comrade Dan know so he can claim back the Millions he paid to that security firm.

[dr dre]

Oh, so the Feds have taken over the State's responsibilities? Missed that on the news.

Australian Constitution:s51 The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power12 (https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedures/~/~/link.aspx?_id=312B0D9213324EDC9DC38870AA75BC8C&_z=z#note-12) to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:
(ix) Quarantine
(xix) Naturalization and aliens;
(xxvii) immigration and emigration

In addition to Border control and Biosecurity. It's the Federal Government which operates facilities like Christmas Island and military bases.

The Feds have delegated this task to the states, and show no inclination to take charge with their resources when it's obvious the current situation (major CBD hotel quarantine) is causing national problems. From now on this situation should be dealt with with a coordinated national approach with the Federal Government stepping up to be real leaders with a Federally managed remote quarantine program.

[Green.Dot]

****ting on AP for closing the border and yet here is SA going into a tougher lockdown that VIC. Man I would hate to be as wrong as often as you are

There is a big difference between indefinite border closures and a wise lockdown Rat.

And I’ll take an extreme lockdown lasting 6 days over a 4 month emotional extravaganza any day.

[rattman]

There is a big difference between indefinite border closures and a wise lockdown Rat.

And I’ll take an extreme lockdown lasting 6 days over a 4 month emotional extravaganza any day.
I would take a 4 month border closure and being able to goto a cafe and have an effectively unchanged life over the a 14 day (not 6) day lockdown

[Green.Dot]

I would take a 4 month border closure and being able to goto a cafe and have an effectively unchanged life over the a 14 day (not 6) day lockdown

Well if the border closure doesn’t effect you (which I find interesting since you likely are a professional pilot on this forum) keep voting for McClown or Queen P and enjoy that latte

[Buster Hyman]

Australian Constitution:s51 The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power12 (https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedures/~/~/link.aspx?_id=312B0D9213324EDC9DC38870AA75BC8C&_z=z#note-12) to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:
(ix) Quarantine
(xix) Naturalization and aliens;
(xxvii) immigration and emigration

You're oversimplifying S51. That's also one of two references to 'quarantine' in the Constitution. If it were that simple, the States could've saved a fortune.

Whilst the Biosecurity Act has superseded Quarantine Act, there's much too much to cross reference to find a definitive answer. The Australian Emergency Management Arrangements, whilst also a simple document, manages to be devoid of 'Legal Speak'. It contains the following references;
In Australia, state and territory governments have primary responsibility for protecting life, property and environment within their borders. State and territory governments establish plans and arrangements for most of the functions essential for effective emergency management (prevention and mitigation, preparedness, response and recovery) and in the interests of community safety and well being.

And...
The roles of the Australian Government in emergency management are to:
• build and promote resilience to emergencies
• support a state or territory, where the emergency response overwhelms their resources and arrangements and Australian Government assistance has been requested
• jointly manage, with an affected state or territory, an emergency that has the potential to affect/has affected: more than one jurisdiction, the broader community or Australian Govt areas of responsibility; or is of national consequence (e.g. pandemic...)
• take primary responsibility for coordinating the response to an emergency that is not the responsibility of a state or territory (e.g. an emergency outside Australia that significantly affects Australians or Australian interests)
• support the states and territories through cost sharing arrangements to alleviate the financial burden associated with the provision of emergency relief and recovery services and activities
• where necessary, provide direct assistance to affected communities



On a side note, I stumbled across this in the Constitution;
117. Rights of residents in StatesA subject of the Queen, resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other State.

Just found that one interesting...

[dr dre]

On a side note, I stumbled across this in the Constitution;

Just found that one interesting...

I wonder how all the constitutional law experts on here (maybe even myself) felt when Palmer’s High Court border challenge was thrown out of court? Maybe we aren’t the legal experts we think we are?

Either way I’m sure the government could facilitate remote quarantine like they did to the Wuhan evacuees in January on Christmas Island.

It’s beyond the point of political arguing, as long as quarantine is maintained in cities, we risk these breakouts every few months which threaten the nation’s generally Covid free status, the national economy and our industry.

[Ragnor]

****ting on AP for closing the border and yet here is SA going into a tougher lockdown that VIC. Man I would hate to be as wrong as often as you are

Wrong how? Closing borders is not the answer to every new case SA new cluster is still below the Fed Gov definition of outbreak and still does not meet hot spot as defined by Fed Gov. SA said today they can trace all the origin of new cases I believe they are making a more a political move knowing they will be locked out well into next yr if they don’t have zero cases because eradication is what is expected now. The original goal was suppression that has now changed.

[galdian]

Wrong how? Closing borders is not the answer to every new case SA new cluster is still below the Fed Gov definition of outbreak and still does not meet hot spot as defined by Fed Gov. SA said today they can trace all the origin of new cases I believe they are making a more a political move knowing they will be locked out well into next yr if they don’t have zero cases because eradication is what is expected now. The original goal was suppression that has now changed.

And who/what institutions changed the goal from suppression to elimination without consulting anyone else??

Anyone who thinks this can be eradicated is a moron, with interdependent economic ties courtesy of the much touted "globalisation" of the world there'd be nothing left to rebuild the scorched earth.

BTW in case unclear I agree with Ragnor's comment, a fair question/observation that deserves consideration because the actions of some state/territory leaders makes you wonder what their strategy is.
And all the while whilst still pocketing whatever they can from ScoMo - just proving that underrneath, whatever they say or pontificate, they really are just politicians and until the cash flow diminishes they are happy to be double faced.

[rattman]

And who/what institutions changed the goal from suppression to elimination without consulting anyone else??

Anyone who thinks this can be eradicated is a moron, with interdependent economic ties courtesy of the much touted "globalisation" of the world there'd be nothing left to rebuild the scorched earth.


Anyone who thinks we should just let if go nuts and do nothing is a bigger moron. Apart for tourism globalisation hasn't been effected, arguably trade has actually increased, monthly household spending has increased.

OK for ****s and giggles what would be your plan to handle it. I need a laugh

[Ragnor]

I don’t think it should “let go nuts” at all I have the opinion we have to live with it and deal with cases as they arise because at the moment the solution is worse than the problem. NSW perfect example of living with it there has been plenty of small clusters over the last 6 month notably cross roads hotel, pockets in SW SY all very well handled and I have no doubt it will happen again. These border closure are a knee jerk reaction which have exposed the failure of those states to prepare them selfs over the last 6 months.

[galdian]

I'll just agree with Ragnor's statement, pretty clear and sensible.

Problem I have is that the states who chose "isolation" believe they have been a success and may not have the protocols established to deal with any outbreaks, when they DO open their fallback position (if South Australia's any indication) is simply to close down - yet again.

Like many one of my parents died (at 93) due a chest infection/cold/flu that became entrenched and led to the body organs saying "yeah all too much".
We haven't eradicated the common cold - yet there appear to be people/organisations who delusionally think CV19 can be eradicated.
My apology in these PC times but my comment stands - morons.

If nothing else simply demonstrates this is still early days of seeing how different approaches do/do not work socially and economically both in Australia and the globalised, interconnected world.

Anyone who believes the first half of 2021 will be any better - good luck on that, I honestly hope you're right.

[dr dre]

We haven't eradicated the common cold - yet there appear to be people/organisations who delusionally think CV19 can be eradicated.


We’re not that far off.

NSW and Victoria have gone 11 and 17 days without local transmission. They’re well on their way to 28 days by December.

SA? This incredibly strict lockdown may do the trick and allow a Covid free Christmas.

Yes, there are organisations who are staffed by some very qualified and experienced people, who think we should aim for zero cases until vaccine uptake is widespread. This will cause the least long term harm to the national economy and allow the most free movement and interstate trade.

Go for zero: How Australia can get to zero COVID-19 cases (https://grattan.edu.au/report/how-australia-can-get-to-zero-covid-19-cases/)

People scoffed at this a few months ago. Now we’re on the cusp on achieving it. Until a vaccine or rapid testing is here best to keep international travel with Covid affected nations limited. Therefore the one weak leak in this strategy, international hotel quarantine, must be addressed.

Hate to sound like a broken record but it is the most important factor. If we remove the quarantine cases from major cities, and isolate them remotely, then we remove the only potential source of widespread outbreak into a Covid safe nation.

As much as conspiracy theorists would like to think that State premiers are doing this for delusional psychopathic reasons they are being advised to do this by the experts for good health and economic reasons.

Allowing for contact tracing and suppression is good in theory, and you might get lucky. But if factors are wrong you might not. Let it spread and see how it’ll rip through the US this winter. Even previously “common sense approach” Sweden is now instituting strict restrictions as their previous “common sense” approach failed. Miserably.

If we have a chance to get to zero, and it’s close, then take it.

[unexplained blip]

(snip)
People scoffed at this a few months ago. Now we’re on the cusp on achieving it.
(snip)
As much as conspiracy theorists would like to think that State premiers are doing this for delusional psychopathic reasons they are being advised to do this by the experts for good health and economic reasons.
(snip)
If we have a chance to get to zero, and it’s close, then take it.

Not a pilot; and usually politically quite left of centre. I am involved in COVID data work and advisory including analysis towards air travel reopening. I can say that 'zero' is a bloody-minded, aesthetic and egotistical choice by several state leaders and their close sets of advisors. Most certainly eradication is possible to reach. (Ironically, in the early days of COVID-19 the statistical and biosecurity guys about the place were often given a rough time by the health experts and epidemiologists for arguing that the actual data was showing we were nearly there back in May). But it is extremely difficult to sustain, and moreover tremendously costly to achieve and then re-achieve. The "premium" in long-term costs, in going from low to zero, is utterly disproportionate to the benefits (despite the calculations of Prof. Blakely -- synopsis of his article supporting eradication on health cost grounds is: let's poorly represent low-rate non-eradication approaches, and form a narrowly-focused cost function, and then seek to convince all and sundry that eradication is obviously the lowest-cost option)

Vic Govt's obsession with zero, rather than following the clearly sufficient and far more moderate NSW position, has cost Victoria dearly. For example, senior figures in mental health talk in private about widespread damage that will never be repaired. This has become the status quo without consultation with their populations, with patchy-at-best dialogue with the rank-and-file of the science community, without regard for the Commonwealth Govt position, and under State of Emergency powers that stifle constructive debate about what is best for a state or the country, because the executive don't have to listen, they can act with impunity.

It is ironic that despite Dan Andrews' constant claims about being driven by data and science, most certainly Vic Govt's approach was *not* data driven. Data-driven showed that every Australian state got COVID-19 rates from first wave peaks down to very low figures March-May 2020. That is eight experiments all showing the same result, done with relatively moderate restrictions through most of the period. NSW has then successfully put multiple outbreaks to bed with the same settings, Tassie put Burnie away pretty easily, and even VIC managed one or two wins. Then VIC had a spectacular series of well-documented failures starting mid-late May. (Sure, if you point an A380 at the ground, you will kill 550 people. What does that prove?) What seemingly has been quickly forgotten is that due to various factors (including what I believe is a reticence to be open with the public about some of the 'social indicators', and embarrassing systematic shortcomings that were not acknowledged and were quickly cascading) Victoria spent more than two weeks racking up scores of cases, before decisive action was taken. The initial action was late but correct. The last 6 weeks? Jesus wept.

Now with COVID nationally, without actually informing and asking the population about the options, we are at an analogous position to saying "sorry, we just can't trust our firefighters to put fires out, so we declare every day from November to March to be a Total Fire Ban, and closing all the National Parks: and you will support us, because you don't want anyone to get hurt do you?". It's fundamentalist logic that we expect to hear from Middle Eastern leaders or the dumbest parts of the USA. Thing is, winners are grinners unless your world has fallen apart in the process. There have been too many happily married 40-somethings making decisions for everybody else (says one of those people...). An almost voiceless 5%-10% of the population have been utterly smashed by this, and god help you if you are an Aussie wanting to get home or an overseas guest who didn't f*** off home when Scomo told you to (the multi-$B education export will *never* recover from our disregard and callousness). But yeah, winners are grinners.

I don't have much of a view on SA, although on first blush it might be overkill, and certainly the snap border closures were heartless and stupid acts which left many people isolated from their homes and lands.

I don't think the premiers are doing this for "delusional psychopathic reasons" but neither are they being rational, well-informed and holistic. Except in NSW/ACT it seems. The drive to reach zero, and be heroes/heroines like Jacinda, is no better than religious fundamentalism. You can have zero adultery too, if you work hard enough at it. The ends do not justify the means. Just because Dan and Mark and Anastasia etc "won" does not mean they have chosen the best path. We do not have a binary choice between NZ on one hand, and Sweden, the UK or the USA on the other. The data shows that we all had a great and successful approach March-May but now the wheels are well and truly off. Yes it is better that the wheels rolled south to zero, rather than rolled north to infinity -- but they are still off. The majority of relevant scientists, sociologists, economists and data-wranglers are NOT being harnessed or listened to; and state and national strategy is a total shambles.

[Ragnor]

So, SA 6 day lockdown WTF! where does 6 days come from another rogue premier and CMO making $hit up as they go like QLD and WA. Sco Mo needs to grab the reins and pull these premiers into line make a national standard FFS.

[Xeptu]

It doesn't really matter, we want zero community transmission and we'll accept nothing less. You guys best accept and adapt the airlines will never be what they were. It will be climate change next and that will be a whole lot more destructive than any virus.

[Green.Dot]

So, SA 6 day lockdown WTF! where does 6 days come from another rogue premier and CMO making $hit up as they go like QLD and WA. Sco Mo needs to grab the reins and pull these premiers into line make a national standard FFS.

I say good on SA for making the big call early. It wasn’t just a small number of cases, it was 20 or so in 48 hours from nothing. If it turns out to be nothing they can call stumps in 3 days.

You and I both know if Adelaide turns in to another Melbourne it will be a disaster for the domestic aviation market which was just about to turn a corner.

Déjà Vu- feels a lot like July- the great unknown. Which way will it go?

[compressor stall]

Hate to sound like a broken record but it is the most important factor. If we remove the quarantine cases from major cities, and isolate them remotely, then we remove the only potential source of widespread outbreak into a Covid safe nation.


I hate to break it to you, but there are other avenues for COVID to enter AU besides the traveller quarantine system. And I am not talking aircrew.

The greatest danger to this country is the perception that with zero, we can go back to normal, or just about. Then when something pops up, it goes nuts. Look at the panic buying yesterday in Adelaide, not a mask in sight on the vision I saw. IF it is about, it's probably now well seeded.

[Green.Dot]

I say good on SA for making the big call early. It wasn’t just a small number of cases, it was 20 or so in 48 hours from nothing. If it turns out to be nothing they can call stumps in 3 days.

Stumps to be called on day 3 (Saturday night). Big win for SA and the rest of the country

[GaryGnu]

Not a pilot; and usually politically quite left of centre. I am involved in COVID data work and advisory including analysis towards air travel reopening. I can say that 'zero' is a bloody-minded, aesthetic and egotistical choice by several state leaders and their close sets of advisors.

.......

The data shows that we all had a great and successful approach March-May but now the wheels are well and truly off. Yes it is better that the wheels rolled south to zero, rather than rolled north to infinity -- but they are still off. The majority of relevant scientists, sociologists, economists and data-wranglers are NOT being harnessed or listened to; and state and national strategy is a total shambles.

unexplained blip thanks for taking the time to contribute that post to this forum. I know this place is anonymous and we cannot truly know who is writing what, but it’s nice to have different perspectives put to us.

[Ragnor]

What will Palachooks excuse be to keep NSW locked out of QLD this month?

Will be interesting if Palachook will open to fellow Labor compatriot DA.

[DirectAnywhere]

unexplained blip thanks for taking the time to contribute that post to this forum. I know this place is anonymous and we cannot truly know who is writing what, but it’s nice to have different perspectives put to us.

Certainly one of the better posts I've read.

[krismiler]

The UK locked down and largely contained the virus a few months ago, then they relaxed most restrictions. This resulted in another wave and a second lockdown being imposed,

Singapore locked down for seven weeks back in April/May to contain a surging case load, restrictions were heavily enforced. The virus was largely contained and a gradual opening up was initiated. Some restrictions are still in place but apart from international travel and nightclubs things are largely back to normal, with nearly two weeks of no new local cases and around sixty current ones.

A gradual easing of restrictions and a carefully monitored, staged opening up can be safely accomplished.

[Ladloy]

What will Palachooks excuse be to keep NSW locked out of QLD this month?

Will be interesting if Palachook will open to fellow Labor compatriot DA.
Seems like it should happen soon now that the requirements are met for Sydney. I'm sure Vic will be soon too. Could be a good Christmas

[Ragnor]

NSW have 30 days with no unknown community transmission, QLD said its 15 days so if it keeps going they could open 6th December or wait to the 26th December to make a decision.

[Whispering T-Jet]

unexplained blip Great post can we have it on the front page of the newspaper please!

Random snap lockdowns and border closures on outbreaks that don't even meet national hotspot criteria will continue to kill tourism, avaition and education.
Who will ever book a WA holiday again if you may get thrown in quarrantine prison due to a decison made mid flight? As for Anastacia Pluckaduck - inexcusable politicing to play to the parochial penaut gallery.

Gladys is the only grown up in the country right now.

[thorn bird]

Probably sticking my neck out but I can't help thinking more than 99% of people infected, survive Covid, many didn't even know they had it.

If the world never knew it existed in the first place, would it have spread around the world with the media reporting an unusually virulent flu season? without the extraordinary hysteria we see at the moment.

Sorry to the true believers, but I can't help thinking that the "Cure" might just end up worse than the disease.

[KRviator]

I just can't get my head around a virus, that is "sooo deadly", you need to be tested to know if you have it!

[Ladloy]

I just can't get my head around a virus, that is "sooo deadly", you need to be tested to know if you have it!
Annual deaths in UK and US are on track to be 10% higher than normal. They're countries that haven't taken it seriously. It's the equivalent of another 15000 people dying this year on top of our normal death rate.

[KRviator]

And the problem with that is....?

Sure, it is depressing and upsetting for some. But so is losing your job, your home, your livelihood and your future because we've locked down the country, close our state borders at the drop of a tissue and think that is an appropriate response! Of course it is an appropriate response.... But that's when viewed from a health perspective. Ask an Economist if they think closing the borders as done so far is an appropriate response to "save" 15,000 lives and you'll get a very different answer...

[Ladloy]

And the problem with that is....?

Sure, it is depressing and upsetting for some. But so is losing your job, your home, your livelihood and your future because we've locked down the country, close our state borders at the drop of a tissue and think that is an appropriate response! Of course it is an appropriate response.... But that's when viewed from a health perspective. Ask an Economist if they think closing the borders as done so far is an appropriate response to "save" 15,000 lives and you'll get a very different answer...
US state Borders are open, how's their economy and airline industry going?

Sweden just ended their experiment too.

[dr dre]

Ask an Economist if they think closing the borders as done so far is an appropriate response to "save" 15,000 lives and you'll get a very different answer...

Will you?:

Australian economists: don’t sacrifice health for ‘the economy’ (https://theconversation.com/open-letter-from-265-australian-economists-dont-sacrifice-health-for-the-economy-136686)

Albeit written in April, when calls to reopen from the usual suspects had already started. It’s difficult to find a consensus or any real comment from economists now about the state of the border. There’s some talk of allowing migrants or international students, but these would be long term arrivals with a 2 weeks quarantine. I think the talk here is more of international tourists or short term visitors who probably wouldn’t want a two week enforced stay in a hotel room before being allowed to go outside and spend money in the economy.

[dr dre]

I just can't get my head around a virus, that is "sooo deadly", you need to be tested to know if you have it!

Yeah so overrated, that the USA, which usually has 20-50,000 deaths per influenza season (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html) every year has had 260,000 dead so far outside of flu season and is currently suffering a rate of 1500 dead per day and growing (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/), which even if kept at that level would result in another 100,000 dead in just the next two months.

But the Covidiotism is strong in some parts of the world (mostly the US). From abuse of doctors (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-deniers-abuse-doctors-across-italy-as-deaths-mount-brjrh6kdj), to patients dying in denial and angry (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/covid-us-cases-latest-nurse-patients-biden-virus-b1724026.html?amp), to patients who refuse masks and demand quack treatments (https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-donald-trump-archive-3f732b1c4611909e5b47b54b00ee2802), to those who think it’s all political (https://www.tmj4.com/news/coronavirus/this-is-not-a-hoax-health-workers-frustrated-with-patients-refusing-to-believe-covid-19-is-real) and finally the healthcare workers suffering the emotional toll of having to deal with these morons (https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/89796).

I don’t know if the virus was to break out in Australia that we would see the same level of brainwashed cult like denialism that has allowed to virus to ravage other parts of the world.

[dr dre]

Gladys is the only grown up in the country right now.

The only adult flaunts rules every one else has to abide by!:

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian under fire over breach of NSW Health isolation rules after coronavirus test (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-23/gladys-berejiklian-under-fire-for-working-after-covid-test/12912550)

[minigundiplomat]

Dre,

Seen as you are keen to use the USA as an example, I will too. Under the CARES act, private hospitals get an additional 20% for COVID patients, and uninsured COVID patients are paid for by the federal government. If you think that's lost of private hospitals with shareholders and unconnected to the figures you quote, I have a car you might be interested in. Back to Australia, and many of those that have perished from COVID did so because of the poor controls over those caring for the elderly in care homes, the large majority having multiple underlying conditions (a family member included).

I am no tin hat wearer; COVID is real, and it kills the vulnerable. But maybe we should have moved to protect the vulnerable rather than running around like Chicken Little and closing all the borders and stuffing up the economy for decades; for most of us, we have a >99% chance of survival.

If your at 36,000 feet and you have a problem with the plane, you don't stop flying.

[dr dre]

Dre,

Seen as you are keen to use the USA as an example, I will too. Under the CARES act, private hospitals get an additional 20% for COVID patients, and uninsured COVID patients are paid for by the federal government. If you think that's lost of private hospitals with shareholders and unconnected to the figures you quote, I have a car you might be interested in.

It sounds like you’re suggesting that US hospitals are deliberately inflating Covid numbers for cash. That is pretty much tin foil hat stuff right there. It’s also quite fake. (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-baselessly-suggests-covid-19-deaths-inflated-for-profit/)

But maybe we should have moved to protect the vulnerable rather than running around like Chicken Little and closing all the borders and stuffing up the economy for decades; for most of us, we have a >99% chance of survival.

Who said we stuff up the economy for decades by doing it this way? I reckon the economies of nations where the virus is currently ripping through will be stuffed for longer than Australia. Economists agree: (https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/costs-covid-australia-economic-prospects-wounded-world)

On IMF forecasts, the economic contraction in the United States, the whole of the Euro area, the United Kingdom, and Canada will be twice that of Australia.

And the whole notion of “protecting the vulnerable” is far easier said than done. (https://www.smh.com.au/national/let-the-virus-run-but-protect-the-vulnerable-easier-said-than-done-20200820-p55nk5.html)

If your at 36,000 feet and you have a problem with the plane, you don't stop flying.

If passengers onboard suddenly start having medial episodes that overwhelm the available medical supplies onboard we don’t just shrug our shoulders, say “they have underlying conditions”, and keep going to the destination whilst ignoring every alternate along the way.

[minigundiplomat]

It sounds like you’re suggesting that US hospitals are deliberately inflating Covid numbers for cash. That is pretty much tin foil hat stuff right there. It’s also quite fake. (https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-baselessly-suggests-covid-19-deaths-inflated-for-profit/)

I don't like that answer - therefore its fake.

And the whole notion of “protecting the vulnerable” is far easier said than done. (https://www.smh.com.au/national/let-the-virus-run-but-protect-the-vulnerable-easier-said-than-done-20200820-p55nk5.html)

Yep, because locking down an entire state is a piece of p1ss......

[Climb150]

The "more money for CoVID cases" isn't a tin hat at all.

​​​https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

It only applies to Medicare (USA) patients.

After a 4 week stay in hospital 30 years ago, I heard nurses speak openly about exaggerating the condition of patients to get more weekly budget allocation. When I hear allegations of exaggerating patients diagnosis or cause of death during covid, I don't find it surprising at all.

[dr dre]

The "more money for CoVID cases" isn't a tin hat at all.

Never denied that point. It’s the subsequent implication that hospital and medicos are deliberately lying and over inflating Covid numbers for that extra cash that is not backed by any evidence. From your article:

Ask FactCheck's conclusion: "Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."

[galdian]

The only adult flaunts rules every one else has to abide by!:

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian under fire over breach of NSW Health isolation rules after coronavirus test (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-23/gladys-berejiklian-under-fire-for-working-after-covid-test/12912550)

Flaunts? Did she have a few hundred people into her office for a piss up whilst awaiting the results? Did she invite a few hundred of her closest friend to an indoor lunch?

At some stage balance and perspective has to be reintroduced into discussions, the current tribalism and outright hate which has become the norm doesn't allow for anything like a fair and balanced discussion.

You hate Gladys and anything she touches automatically is sh1t - fine, so be it.
I suppose Chairman Dan's the other end of the spectrum where everything he touches is gold - irrespective of his "creeping assumption" position which to anyone with half a brain was stupidity and bullsh1t squared.

Maybe Taylor Swift got it right - the haters gonna hate hate hate - no discussion required, QED. :ugh:

[Ladloy]

Border open from the 1st for Sydney residents.

[dr dre]

Flaunts? Did she have a few hundred people into her office for a piss up whilst awaiting the results? Did she invite a few hundred of her closest friend to an indoor lunch?



She did not isolate as required by NSW Health rules, continuing to meet with unrelated people in her office whilst waiting for test results. Doesn’t matter if it was 1 or 100 people she came into contact with. Someone who has undertaken a Covid test is assumed positive until confirmed negative.

Pilots who have had to isolate after testing can’t have friends over at their place, whether it’s 1 or 100 makes no difference. Leadership means lead from the front, no special exemptions based on status.

[PoppaJo]

Border open from the 1st for Sydney residents.

Don’t hold your breath. I mean, any small outbreak and she will click those fingers.

[Climb150]

Never denied that point. It’s the subsequent implication that hospital and medicos are deliberately lying and over inflating Covid numbers for that extra cash that is not backed by any evidence. From your article:

Ask FactCheck's conclusion: "Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."
Dan Andrews also suggest there is no evidence proving he knew that grossly undertrained people were used in Melbourne hotel quarantine hotels.

[galdian]

She did not isolate as required by NSW Health rules, continuing to meet with unrelated people in her office whilst waiting for test results. Doesn’t matter if it was 1 or 100 people she came into contact with. Someone who has undertaken a Covid test is assumed positive until confirmed negative.

Pilots who have had to isolate after testing can’t have friends over at their place, whether it’s 1 or 100 makes no difference. Leadership means lead from the front, no special exemptions based on status.

So for such a heinous crime against society - because politicians are SO special they aren't real people and must NEVER make a mistake - what would be your preferred method of execution?

Hanging's effective but a bit boring, beheading maybe would be more exciting and entertaining for the gathered throng, maybe machine gunning in half would be a nice modern touch - if not a bit gruesome.

So many choices - so few politicians! ;)

[brokenagain]

Don’t hold your breath. I mean, any small outbreak and she will click those fingers.

Somebody sneezes in Sydney and her and the sour face CHO will close the border quick smart. Look at how they’re handling Adelaide at the moment, no unlinked cases of community transmission and they’re still not opening the border. NT dropped the requirement as soon as they could. It highlights why we need a national approach to border management rather than dictator like state premiers incompetently running their own race.

[dr dre]

It highlights why we need a national approach to border management rather than dictator like state premiers incompetently running their own race.

Would you still agree to a national approach to state borders if it mirrored the current strict national approach to international borders (basically no free movement until a vaccine)?

[slats11]

Interesting way of looking at 120 years of Swedish data.
1918 was the Spanish flu.
Each month is a colour. Red is April.
There were more deaths in April. That was C19.

But by the start of November
2020 was a bit worse than 2019
2020 was about the same as 2014, 15, 16, 17 and 18
2020 was a bit better than 2010, 11, 12 and 13.

Now maybe the last 6 weeks of 2020 will see a significant spike. Hopefully not, but maybe.
But that does not look likely given most European countries are experiencing lower mortality now compared to the 1st wave.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1334x750/sweden_mortality_1900_2020_9153fe664df507dd5bbd49a42ef879cc4 2f1bea3.jpg

[slats11]

https://www.postoj.sk/65044/mnohe-obete-covid-19-boli-aj-zavisle-od-alkoholu

This pathologist is making a critical distinction between
SARS-CoV-2 ( the virus)
and
C19 (the clinical disease caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus).

It is a bit muddled here when he talks about "SARS-Co-2 infection" not being C19 (by definition, SARS-CoV-2 infection = C19). I presume he is talking about a positive PCR test where the patient is "colonised" by SARS-CoV-2 but with no actual invasive infection. Google translate can miss nuances. But I think that is what he means. That makes sense - we often swab a skin ulcer on a foot and will usually grow some bacteria, but most often these bacteria are simply colonising the ulcer (i.e. they are living on the ulcer and can be isolated in a lab), but the bacteria are not actually causing an infection, and antibiotics won't help as the ulcer is really caused by vascular disease or diabetes or something else.

So I think he is saying they had 366 C19 deaths (later increased to 390). But a further 127 deaths where the person had a positive PCR but did not have C19 (as no infection) and hence could not have died from C19.

The guy is making a lot of sense. Mortui Vivos Docent, the dead teach the living.

However in systems where you don't do an autopsy (rates are very low in many countries, and rates have decreased further this year due to concerns about viral transmission), you will over-count C19 deaths. If someone dies, there is a positive PCR, there is no other obvious cause of death, then the death is considered as C19.

Lots of old people die without an apparent cause. Something other than "old age" has to be written on a death certificate. So it is often put down to "dementia" or "heart failure" or something vague. But if you have a positive PCR and there is no other obvious cause, then the death will be attributed to C19.

Yesterday, korona.gov.sk reported 366 victims of Covid-19. What would be this number if we also added those victims who were positive for the coronavirus but died of another cause?
As of November 9, we have 366 deaths with Covid-19 (on November 10, the number increased by 24, ed. Note). We also have 127 deaths with SARS-CoV-2 infection detected, but these patients did not have Covid-19 and we only report them as infected in the statistics. It can be seen from these numbers that this is a significant difference. So if we didn't do a detailed investigation, we would have had significantly more deaths in Covid-19.
Some may say that, from the point of view of great statistics, this is negligible, but if we want to know exactly what the impact of the epidemic is, then, in my opinion, it is very important to have the most accurate numbers possible and to do it this way.https://www.postoj.sk/65044/mnohe-obete-covid-19-boli-aj-zavisle-od-alkoholu

It is in connection with a heart attack that the number of victims of the disease has been relativized in the past. So if someone had a coronavirus infested lung but also had a heart attack, what would we die for, according to our classification?
If we have a patient who has a myocardial infarction, is hospitalized and treated for this disease, and dies of the symptoms of heart failure, he is routinely tested for coronavirus in the hospital and in our country at autopsy.
If the patient was tested positive, then, of course, in this case we examine the morphological changes in the airways and lungs in great detail. If no changes are found to support the diagnosis of advanced Covid-19, then the patient will only be included in the statistics as a death with SARS-CoV-2 infection.
However, if it was a recent heart attack, say one to two days, and the development of changes in the lungs related to Covid-19 clearly show that it was a week-long process, then the patient will be closed with Covid-19 and died to its consequences. Here we can talk about myocardial infarction as the immediate cause of death, but the underlying disease, the primary cause of death was Covid-19, which contributed significantly to the failure of the body.

There have been 4 previous viral outbreaks in the PCR era - SARS, MERS, Zika, and Ebola.
With ALL 4 of these previous outbreaks, CDC and WHO agreed that a person with an initial positive PCR required 2 further things to be diagnosed as a case
i) a repeat confirmatory PCR test
AND
ii) clinical features of infection

That all changed with C19. A positive SARS-CoV-2 PCR test = C19. No repeat test. No clinical features (as a large asymptomatic % is accepted as being part of the disease).
China however still requires a person to have a positive test (not clear if repeated) AND clinical features to be considered a case. They will still isolate and track positive PCR, but they are not cases.

Regarding the need for a confirmatory PCR test:
One study of positive SARS-CoV-2 samples tested the same sample a further 2 times (so each sample was tested 3 times). Note they didn't get another sample from the patient - they simply re-processed the sample a further 2 times.
55% of the time, the 2nd and/or the 3rd test were positive, and so the initial positive was considered a true positive
45% of the time, both the 2nd and 3rd test were negative, and so the initial positive was considered a false positive.

[Green.Dot]

The only adult flaunts rules every one else has to abide by!:

NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian under fire over breach of NSW Health isolation rules after coronavirus test (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-23/gladys-berejiklian-under-fire-for-working-after-covid-test/12912550)

Your obsession with trying to make Dan Andrew’s look better is ridiculous. He will remain a deceitful and shady human being to the astute.

[slats11]

You know, Sweden made its mistakes by not adequately shielding the elderly in nursing homes. The Swedish authorities publicly acknowledged this and apologised for their errors.

In contrast, the witnesses before the Victorian hotel inquiry all did their best impersonation of Sgt Schultz.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/822x782/sgt_schultz_5e7f113d803f3b9e61d7f050dfb582bb6b351bd3.png

[michigan j]

Not the first Premier to not isolate after developing symptoms

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/politics/qld-premier-accused-of-ignoring-health-advice-for-travelling-after-covid-test/news-story/614d802a09e4c3e21edf5b7dafa32c38

[Green.Dot]

Not the first Premier to not isolate after developing symptoms

https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/politics/qld-premier-accused-of-ignoring-health-advice-for-travelling-after-covid-test/news-story/614d802a09e4c3e21edf5b7dafa32c38

And the point being even though I am no fan of the Queen this is “click bait” and not the big issue.

But who am I to judge, it turns out over 800 dead in Victoria due to DA and his Govt’s incompetence is not a big issue either to all the “believers”.

[Ragnor]

Now that wicked North has finally opened or would I say ran out of excuses. What is WA problem? what are they waiting for?

[Turnleft080]

Now that wicked North has finally opened or would I say ran out of excuses. What is WA problem? what are they waiting for?
As I'm the WA premier I have understood that all Sicktorians are eating triple donuts today and that would be enough to give you diabetes and diarrhoea.
According to our CHC we cannot have them throwing up, and depositing nasty leper pathogens sludge in our sewage.
Therefore the border will remain closed until they can clean up their act. They will not be allowed to utilise our toilets and toilet paper.
I wish them well.
The very reliable and honourable M. McGowan

[KRviator]

Now that wicked North has finally opened or would I say ran out of excuses. What is WA problem? what are they waiting for?Seccession...

[compressor stall]

Seccession...
Ain't that the truth.

[minigundiplomat]

I was rather hoping WA would open and Victoria would push for seccession......

[jrfsp]

WAs criteria has been stated for quite a while now, 28 days of no community cases.

Both VIC and NSW should shortly reach that criteria

[KRviator]

WAs criteria has been stated for quite a while now, 28 days of no community cases.

Both VIC and NSW should shortly reach that criteriaThat isn't the only consideration though...Mark McGoose has stated that sewage testing, the COVID testing regime of the other states & their own border arrangements, as well as whether or not a bear ****s in the woods and if Punxsutawney Phil emerges from his burrow arse-first all factor into his decision to open the border according to ABC News. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-25/wa-tourism-anxiety-over-victorian-border-arrangements/12916866) Guess you'll be seeing Queenslanders banned from WA now someone has been peeing Pestilence up Cairns way this afternoon (https://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/cairns/cairns-covid-cases-sewage-flowing-from-cairns-north-toilets-tests-positive-for-virus/news-story/ea0cb59268de5380ff24437ccc0043dc), picked up in their sewage testing...

[lucille]

So, finally after 6 long months, the original poster BNE320 can strut around with his head held high saying “I told ya so”.

[Green.Dot]

So, finally after 6 long months, the original poster BNE320 can strut around with his head held high saying “I told ya so”.

Welcome back BNEA320, it appears you are no longer banned!

[Ragnor]

Appears AJ is coping some heat over this. Not sure what the problem is 40 yrs ago this was mandatory to travel internationally and I wouldn't be surprised if it is made mandatory for domestic. This pandemic has cost 1000s of lives and billions of dollars.

"Qantas boss Alan Joyce has revealed the airline will require proof of vaccine from travellers when international flights resume next year.

Speaking on A Current Affair, Mr Joyce outlined the measures being explored by the airline in partnership with the federal government to try to facilitate more overseas flights.

He said passengers on repatriation flights currently being operated by Qantas were being tested prior to boarding and upon arrival in Darwin, with the aim of potentially reducing the mandatory quarantine period from 14-days to seven or even five.

“We’re also testing wastewater on the aircraft as well to check if someone on the aircraft had COVID-19, and that’s producing some promising results,” Mr Joyce said.

“There’s a lot of activity taking place. If we don’t get a vaccine, absolutely testing is the way to reduce the amount of quarantine required.”

In the event a vaccine does become available Mr Joyce said Qantas and many other airlines around the world would require travellers to have proof of vaccination before boarding an overseas flight.

“We’re looking at changing our terms and conditions,” he said.

“I think that’s going to be a common there around the globe. What we’re looking at is how you can have the vaccination (recorded) in an electronic version of a passport that certifies what the vaccine is, if it’s acceptable the country you’re travelling to.

“There’s a lot of logistics, a lot of technology that need to be put in place to make this happen.”

Mr Joyce’s comments were reflected by the International Air Transport Association which is in the final stages of developing a digital health pass, considered the key to safely reopening borders.

IATA’s annual general meeting heard the pass would manage and verify the secure flow of necessary testing or vaccine information among governments, airlines, laboratories and travellers.

IATA managing director Alexandre de Juniac said the association would bring its own travel pass to the market in coming months to meet the needs of various travel bubbles and public health corridors.

“Today borders are double locked. Testing is the first key to enable international travel without quarantine measures,” Mr de Juniac said.

“The second key is the global information infrastructure needed to securely manage, share and verify test data matched with traveller identities in compliance with border control requirements.”

Since the COVID crisis erupted, international air travel has all but ground to a halt, with Qantas suspending all commercial overseas flights from late March.

The most recent federal government indications were that international borders were unlikely to be relaxed until the end of 2021, in the absence of an effective COVID vaccine.

Mr Joyce has suggested Qantas would not resume any significant international flying until July 2021, and services to the US and the UK were unlikely to happen before December 2021.

Travel bubbles between Australia and other countries who have COVID-19 well under control such as New Zealand, South Korea and Singapore are expected to open up in coming months.

Qantas has placed most of its international fleet into storage, including 12 A380s, and most of its 787-9s and A330s.

The airline also brought forward the retirement of its five remaining Boeing 747s in July.

A total of 241 pilots have taken voluntary redundancy or early retirement equivalent to the loss of close 5 million flying hours.

On the domestic front, Qantas hopes to return to 50 or 60 per cent of pre-COVID capacity in December, providing state borders reopen".

[Green.Dot]

Appears AJ is coping some heat over this. Not sure what the problem is 40 yrs ago this was mandatory to travel internationally and I wouldn't be surprised if it is made mandatory for domestic. This pandemic has cost 1000s of lives and billions of dollars.

"Qantas boss Alan Joyce has revealed the airline will require proof of vaccine from travellers when international flights resume next year.

For the majority who aren’t on the “anti-vaxers” bandwagon I would say this is a positive for Qantas and its forward bookings. I’ll buy a ticket with the airline that mandates it thanks.

[Buster Hyman]

Still have the scars from the previous mandatory immunisation shots. I have no issue with Qantas’ stance here.

I guess the main difference, aside from diseases covered, is it was Govt. mandated instead of a private company.

[kingRB]

For the majority who aren’t on the “anti-vaxers” bandwagon I would say this is a positive for Qantas and its forward bookings. I’ll buy a ticket with the airline that mandates it thanks.

Why is it always black and white these days? Did you possibly imagine that someone could hold the position that vaccines do indeed work, but don't want to be forced to take a vaccine thats been brought out in record time with little regard to known long term effects? I mean it's not like we've ever got vaccines wrong before is it?
Nah, we'll just label them all "anti-vaxers" and mock them from deviating from the group think that's been perpetuated under the guise of "science" now.

[chookcooker]

Yes travelling to covid ravaged countries without a vaccine and no travel insurance coverage sounds like a great idea.

[Green.Dot]

Why is it always black and white these days? Did you possibly imagine that someone could hold the position that vaccines do indeed work, but don't want to be forced to take a vaccine thats been brought out in record time with little regard to known long term effects?

Ok, I shouldn’t haves prodded the hornets nest with the “anti-vaxers” bit.

Me personally- I am in no hurry to go overseas, but if I needed to I know I wouldn’t be booking with “El Cheapo airline- choose your own COVID adventure” and I would take my chances with getting the jab.

[kingRB]

Ok, I shouldn’t haves prodded the hornets nest with the “anti-vaxers” bit.

Me personally- I am in no hurry to go overseas, but if I needed to I know I wouldn’t be booking with “El Cheapo airline- choose your own COVID adventure” and I would take my chances with getting the jab.

All good, this wasn't a dig at you personally - but just the overall theme that seems to be the way this is playing out. We seem to be on very slippery ground at the moment with private companies continuing to weigh in on things that really should be left to the law makers.

[Xeptu]

Personally I can't imagine International travel can resume without mandatory vaccination, nor can I imagine you'll be able to buy travel insurance without it. This is still going to take a long time and needs to be implemented properly. The vaccination, certification and how that information is used needs to be thought through in order to prevent fakes and it needs to be an internationally agreed global standard.

[dr dre]

Appears AJ is coping some heat over this. Not sure what the problem is


AJ is copping heat over this? From who? The only ones I’ve seen who’ve voiced opposition are nutjob anti-vax nutters on the darkest corners of the internet and Pauline Hanson (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2020/11/25/pauline-hanson-vaccine-qantas/). So nutters comprise 100% of the opposition. I think AJ has taken a bold stand that will eventually influence others and that will pay off and attract customers to QF.

[Turnleft080]

Just getting back to SA they are having 33 today with double 40 temperatures that is, in the next few days. Make that 50 in the sun.
Just what the doctor ordered. Covid does not like heated surfaces or for that matter a sneeze would just totally evaporate
into thin air i.e. no microscopic particles. Now is that good science or not. The governing authorities remain quiet on these aspects.
However, the beaches will be packed though bayside councils panic about numbers and social distancing.
Nothing to worry about, their has not been a single case of transmission any part of the coastline, Australia wide.
You really start to think this is a indoor spreader not a outdoor spreader.
Anyway the hot weather will help SA cause immensely.

[Fuel-Off]

I love it how we as pilots would happy to lampoon any layman that doesn't apparently know what they're talking about in aviation, but when it comes to all things medical we're suddenly experts on the matter too.

Priceless.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

Just getting back to SA they are having 33 today with double 40 temperatures that is, in the next few days. Make that 50 in the sun.
Just what the doctor ordered. Covid does not like heated surfaces or for that matter a sneeze would just totally evaporate
into thin air i.e. no microscopic particles. Now is that good science or not. The governing authorities remain quiet on these aspects.
However, the beaches will be packed though bayside councils panic about numbers and social distancing.
Nothing to worry about, their has not been a single case of transmission any part of the coastline, Australia wide.
You really start to think this is a indoor spreader not a outdoor spreader.
Anyway the hot weather will help SA cause immensely.

So you have evidence that no one has caught it on an Australian beach on a hot day do you?
You'd better let all those Europeans know so that they can re-open 'their' beaches next summer, to all regardless of where they came from.
This last summer did not go well for them, so maybe all that transmission occurred indoors while half the population was outdoors, yes?

Meantime, having no medical knowledge whatsoever, I will line up for the jab as soon as it is available. Because next year I intend being on those hot European beaches, and to get 'there' I will be flying Qantas.
People can bleat all they like about 'their' rights, but no one will be going anywhere overseas until they have been vaccinated. 'There' will be no government likely to allow entry to non-vaccinated airline passengers, so any airline not following these new rules will go bust.

[currawong]

Mr Joyce has the benefit of some solid legal advice...

https://www.chaliklaw.com/coronavirus-covid-cruise-ship-lawyer/is-there-a-class-action-lawsuit-against-cruise-lines-for-mishandling-coronavirus/

Ambulance chasers wet dream....

[dr dre]

Just getting back to SA they are having 33 today with double 40 temperatures that is, in the next few days. Make that 50 in the sun.
Just what the doctor ordered. Covid does not like heated surfaces or for that matter a sneeze would just totally evaporate
into thin air i.e. no microscopic particles. Now is that good science or not. The governing authorities remain quiet on these aspects.
However, the beaches will be packed though bayside councils panic about numbers and social distancing.
Nothing to worry about, their has not been a single case of transmission any part of the coastline, Australia wide.
You really start to think this is a indoor spreader not a outdoor spreader.
Anyway the hot weather will help SA cause immensely.

Yes because these places didn’t have spikes in July and August:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/texas/

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/arizona/

I shouldn’t need to remind you what the weather’s like in July and August in Texas and Arizona.....

[Derfred]

Yep, must have been a cold summer in India this year.

[Ragnor]

So McIdiot over on the west made an announcement about affordable housing. That was quickly forgotten no questions asked as the journalist wanted answers as to why they can’t agree on their own 28 days regarding opening up to Victoria. He said a announcement will be made in first half of next week but wouldn’t commit to opening up to Victoria or anywhere. Feel sorry for everyone that will miss their family because of this power hungry nut job.

[dr dre]

December 5

When the QR Code Venue App is in place.

[wheels_down]

Perhaps his little world will start falling apart when the rest of the nation gets moving while he is still sitting on the bench.

Just like that fool right up north who said he was not opening his territory for a few years.

All these Labor premiers are on power trips from one extreme to the other, certainly is not one Labor approach across the board. The bloke in Vic seems to run his own regime with no affiliation to any National Labor approach at all. He stands up and agrees with a Liberal premier to his north, while his colleagues in other states shoot her down.

[dr dre]

Perhaps his little world will start falling apart when the rest of the nation gets moving while he is still sitting on the bench.

Just like that fool right up north who said he was not opening his territory for a few years.

Oh be calm.

The differences between states and territories opening up to each will only be a matter of weeks, early next year no one will remember who opened to who when because it’ll all have seemed to have happened at the same time.

Now the international border is the major point of discussion. Has there been any talk of the criteria that will apply to cause international borders to open? When will we be able to travel freely to a Covid safe NZ? What amount of vaccination uptake will be needed to open the rest of the international borders? What if not enough Australians get the vaccine to the minimum level required, will there be some type of forced vaccination, or will border remain closed? Will there be mandatory vaccination for foreigners (I’d say so)?

[wheels_down]

The question asked by an analyst recently to a local CEO was that is International Travel viable (green earnings) without the Business traveller? Talking taken completely out of the picture here. Pretty much all corporate accounts have banned travel. The answer was no.

Those International fights with 20% Corporate, the revenue that comes with that is far greater than 20%.

I guess they just want to reduce the cash burn at the moment, worry about profit in a few years.

[Xeptu]

I would have thought in the case of International Borders, all inbound passengers would at least be required to test negative assuming a reliable quick test is available by then and quite probably vaccinated as well. For outbound passengers almost certainly vaccinated, but I wouldn't think forced, just refused if you are not. It would be foolish to want to travel without having been vaccinated. It will be interesting to see what actually comes about. Surely most countries would require vaccinated prior to entry. It'll be a couple of years before we find out.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I would have thought in the case of International Borders, all inbound passengers would at least be required to test negative assuming a reliable quick test is available by then and quite probably vaccinated as well. For outbound passengers almost certainly vaccinated, but I wouldn't think forced, just refused if you are not. It would be foolish to want to travel without having been vaccinated. It will be interesting to see what actually comes about. Surely most countries would require vaccinated prior to entry. It'll be a couple of years before we find out.

I think it will be quicker than you think.

Travel insurance companies already gearing up to add vaccination as a requirement for coverage.

First half of next year will be interesting.

[Green.Dot]

Someone has already jumped on it. Best thing the ABC has ever used their budget for. :D

https://fb.watch/217eT9hpje/


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/740x734/dc87558a_94a0_42ee_8876_cdabf55f1a4a_914918722483a0a7a2ad17e 0b159d7f555f6e366.jpeg

[Xeptu]

I think it will be quicker than you think.

Travel insurance companies already gearing up to add vaccination as a requirement for coverage.

First half of next year will be interesting.

What's happening in the first half of next year.

[dr dre]

What's happening in the first half of next year.

The rollout of the various vaccines.

The regulations and plans governments will enact to undertake vaccination programs.

Observation on how much initial uptake of the vaccine is being requested by the population.

Decisions being made on what level of vaccination will allow borders to open, along with testing and Covid status of other nations.

When these plans are formulated it’ll give international carriers a better idea of when a return to regular open international air travel is going to happen so should allow for them to start planning flights and start return to work processes for pilots. Although the return to work probably won’t be in the first half of the year everything else will happen in the first half, so international crews should have a much better idea of the road ahead.

[Xeptu]

I admire your optimism, but there are a few hurdles in the way. The first being we don't actually have an approved vaccine yet. Then it will take 6 months to produce and a further 12 months to roll out, assuming everyone is on board with that early in the roll out. The next issue, not so much for AUS and NZ is that you cannot be vaccinated whilst you are infected. That's going to be an issue for the US, South America, India, Europe and Africa. Finally, CHINA, AUS and NZ are likely to be returned to the International travel market in the first group. The rest of the world probably won't be ready for us until Europe and the US are returned. So there's a way to go yet.

[wheels_down]

A May 21 Vaccine launch won’t reach the whole population in this nation until the 21 year is out.

Skeptical in bubbles, half the states here wouldn’t even risk it I don’t think.

AJ will be out and about pushing bubbles with Asia because he has to. His cash burn will eliminate all domestic earnings until his International arm is back up.

Next year is all about maintaining a rolling and uninterrupted domestic network all days of the year.

[dr dre]

AJ will be out and about pushing bubbles with Asia because he has to. His cash burn will eliminate all domestic earnings until his International arm is back up.

Next year is all about maintaining a rolling and uninterrupted domestic network all days of the year.

Domestic travel was always the cash cow. It should be able to sustain a positive income indefinitely. Nations which are more serious about vaccines and health directions (Asian ones I believe) will put better protocols in place to allow early uptake of vaccination and Immunisation passports. This is what the Federal government should be aiming for anyway.

Now we’ve just signed the RCEP, the world’s biggest trade deal, with Asian nations. Australia to the RCEP nation trade is worth $485 billion AUD and includes Australia's 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th and 10th largest trading partners. Trade to this region makes up 83% of Australia's total trade (not even including India which may end up joining the agreement). The Federal government will probably want air links to these nations opened up promptly I’d imagine, after a suitable vaccine rollout program.

Latest info is the vaccine program should be started here in March, Asian nations at a similar time. I guess as there’ll be a gradual rise in vaccinated people here will gradually allow flights to increase? (Perhaps a confirmed international trip will allow priority in the vaccine queue).

[Xeptu]

Latest info is the vaccine program should be started here in March, Asian nations at a similar time. I guess as there’ll be a gradual rise in vaccinated people here will gradually allow flights to increase? (Perhaps a confirmed international trip will allow priority in the vaccine queue).
Maybe! if we have one. Just us being vaccinated isn't enough for unrestricted International travel, the majority of the destination country must be vaccinated also. Just because you can't be infected doesn't mean you can't carry the virus and infect those who are not vaccinated. So it's going to take time and not every country will be ready at the same time.

[Turnleft080]

When McGowan says "I congratulate Vic on reaching 28 days of no contact tracing," though deep down he can't believe
he has to open the border up because their are no more excuses left. Oh! hang on, maybe I can. I hear the vaccines are only
going to be 90% effective, therefore their is a 10% chance of infection. How convenient Sir Humphrey, in that case I shall close the border
until we can find a 100% effective vaccine to protect our WA constituents even beyond the election. Now, Sir Humphrey is that pork barrelling
and spin at it's very best. Yes minister.

[blubak]

When McGowan says "I congratulate Vic on reaching 28 days of no contact tracing," though deep down he can't believe
he has to open the border up because their are no more excuses left. Oh! hang on, maybe I can. I hear the vaccines are only
going to be 90% effective, therefore their is a 10% chance of infection. How convenient Sir Humphrey, in that case I shall close the border
until we can find a 100% effective vaccine to protect our WA constituents even beyond the election. Now, Sir Humphrey is that pork barrelling
and spin at it's very best. Yes minister.
Not interested in his congratulations.
He is happy to big note himself at our expense when it suits & now tries to look as if he cares.
Him & queen P can keep themselves locked up forever & continue to play politics in their childish ways.

[lucille]

Welcome back BNEA320, it appears you are no longer banned!

Indeed, it appears I was banned for that post of mine you quoted.

And NO! I am not bnea320, it was an apparently failed attempt by me at dry humour by mentioning his original post... seemingly the mods failed to see the irony of a broken clock being correct two times a day.

[dr dre]

Him & queen P can keep themselves locked up forever & continue to play politics in their childish ways.

Errrr haven’t been watching the news today have you??

[Ragnor]

Finally. Last idiot standing has opened up he did run out of excuses in the end.

[galdian]

Finally. Last idiot standing has opened up he did run out of excuses in the end.

....on Tuesday Dec 8th....with the proviso no new cases or else expect slamming shut of the border again one assumes.

Be an interesting week.

[Green.Dot]

Indeed, it appears I was banned for that post of mine you quoted.

And NO! I am not bnea320, it was an apparently failed attempt by me at dry humour by mentioning his original post... seemingly the mods failed to see the irony of a broken clock being correct two times a day.

Sorry mate, wasn’t my intention, I know you are not BNEA320- I just noticed he is not banned anymore. Standby for more threads!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/198x209/dec4848e_840c_4b2c_aca2_3c06a18d8d86_845356e50692579fd8e78c2 6735404efc64662e2.jpeg

[Section28- BE]

Sorry mate, wasn’t my intention, I know you are not BNEA320- I just noticed he is not banned anymore. Standby for more threads!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/198x209/dec4848e_840c_4b2c_aca2_3c06a18d8d86_845356e50692579fd8e78c2 6735404efc64662e2.jpeg

Hmmmmm-

So Given, the Posts/and Assertions - that, have been redacted/& removed by the protagonist/'s on here......

Where/and How Do -: 'MelbourneFlyer', 'TT738' fit in, with 'Getaway' and 'BNEA320'.....????

Just a question....?????, is all.- Ta.

rgds all/
be Well
S28- BE

[smiling monkey]

Covid Pfizer vaccine approved for use next week in UK

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55145696

Good news on the horizon!

[Ragnor]

Vaccine can’t come quick enough. International arrivals are a ticking time bomb for the country. I’d vote for stopping all arrivals but you can’t do that I guess.

[Australopithecus]

...and the virus again may be in the wild following yet another quarantine hotel worker found positive, this time in Sydney. I reckon every international arrival has probably cost the country on average about $50 million in lost economic activity. Each.

[Ladloy]

...and the virus again may be in the wild following yet another quarantine hotel worker found positive, this time in Sydney. I reckon every international arrival has probably cost the country on average about $50 million in lost economic activity. Each.
Must be those private security guards

[WhisprSYD]

...and the virus again may be in the wild following yet another quarantine hotel worker found positive, this time in Sydney. I reckon every international arrival has probably cost the country on average about $50 million in lost economic activity. Each.

this time a HQ cleaner who was working at multiple hotels (both HQ and non HQ)
SA was HQ security who were working second jobs at a pizza restaurant
Vic wasn’t it HQ security who were Uber delivery drivers on the side?

if we’re spending hundreds of millions on hotel quarantine surely we can pay the workers enough in danger money so that they don’t need second/third/fourth jobs

[dr dre]

Or why don’t we just do the thing that should’ve happened after the Victorian outbreak, definitely should have happened after the Adelaide outbreak and if we’re not doing it after this one we’re certifiably insane and our nation’s leaders are brain dead:

Quarantine all international arrivals in remote locations. Desert camps, military bases, offshore islands. Where workers at those facilities are not risking unintentionally becoming super spreaders in crowded cities on their days off as the ones who’ve accidentally become superspreaders after CBD hotel quarantine have.

It’s getting ridiculous now. It’s time for our country’s leaders to step up and act.

[Ragnor]

Or why don’t we just do the thing that should’ve happened after the Victorian outbreak, definitely should have happened after the Adelaide outbreak and if we’re not doing it after this one we’re certifiably insane and our nation’s leaders are brain dead:

Quarantine all international arrivals in remote locations. Desert camps, military bases, offshore islands. Where workers at those facilities are not risking unintentionally becoming super spreaders in crowded cities on their days off as the ones who’ve accidentally become superspreaders after CBD hotel quarantine have.

It’s getting ridiculous now. It’s time for our country’s leaders to step up and act.

I agree to that.

[Boe787]

Seperate camps for say up to 200 arrivals, well paid staff work the same 2 weeks as the Quarantined arrivals, everyone tested regularly, and final test at end of the 2 week period.
Then everyone heads home.
2 weeks later that crew of workers return to same camp,bit like FIFO, and process is repeated with a new group of overseas arrivals.

[Turnleft080]

WA premier McGowan straight on the blower weighing up the one case in NSW. CHC monitoring like a hawk standing bye waiting on the process.
I bet if their is one more case or 2 the border will close again. Open close open close, really great for Christmas bookings.
Gladys just hide this one under the carpet don't tell him.

[Global Aviator]

Some of these comments in regards to repatriations are fairly out there!

Not sure why they don’t ramp up Howard Springs to its full 3500 bed potential, that would certainly help clear the backlog of 50,000 trying to get home.

Hotel quarantine should work, the problem is the lack of discipline in some places. Don’t forget in most places aircrew still get to hotel quarantine for a night when operating through and requiring rest. Like the Canadians it is only as strong as the weakest link.

The problem Straya has is a lack of accountability when fook ups are made. Jail and serious fines and actually enforcing them are the only way to make people be accountable.

As for treating nationals like asylum seekers which is basically what some are suggesting is just not on.

[jrfsp]

As for treating nationals like asylum seekers which is basically what some are suggesting is just not on.

Quarantine cruise ships, that's what we need (joke). In all seriousness, there are thousands of FIFO workers who put up with these conditions, why not returning travelers?

What about Rottnest / Hamilton Island etc? We used to have purpose built quarantine stations situated away from the "Towns" , the government has had months to come up with a better system.....it just seems the risk far far outweighs the cost of building a better system?

[Global Aviator]

Quarantine cruise ships, that's what we need (joke). In all seriousness, there are thousands of FIFO workers who put up with these conditions, why not returning travelers?

What about Rottnest / Hamilton Island etc? We used to have purpose built quarantine stations situated away from the "Towns" , the government has had months to come up with a better system.....it just seems the risk far far outweighs the cost of building a better system?

Yep that’s why I’m so pro using Howard Springs to its full potential. I don’t think QLD tourism would be too happy using a resort island! Logistically Christmas Island would cost a huge amount as not bug enough for wide bodies so looking a shuttles. Oh then again Singapore or Kuala Lumpur in narrow bodies would work.

I don’t think many wanting to get home would actually care where or how, they just want to get home. Howard Springs is actually a jack pot in my opinion, outside time, pool time, etc! Much better than stuck in a 5 star hotel room with no opening windows.

[KRviator]

WA premier McGowan straight on the blower weighing up the one case in NSW. CHC monitoring like a hawk standing bye waiting on the process.
I bet if their is one more case or 2 the border will close again. Open close open close, really great for Christmas bookings.
Gladys just hide this one under the carpet don't tell him.Don't forget - according to Mark McGoose, if he doesn't like what is happening in NSW there goes Victoria too. The asreclown has openly stated they'll treat both states as a single entity due to our shared border towns, etc.Mr McGowan said the opening to NSW and Victoria — which were being treated as a single jurisdiction because of their border communities — was pending no further outbreaks. Source (https://thewest.com.au/news/coronavirus/premier-mark-mcgowan-announces-wa-to-open-border-to-victoria-and-nsw-ng-b881735717z)How TF can anyone believe this is a reasonable - and appropriate - way to manage a pandemic response?

[lc_461]

Can't say I've heard much bleating about 'Keeping us safe' from QLD since the election....

[Buster Hyman]

What about Rottnest / Hamilton Island etc?
Tasmania. :E

[Climb150]

Why don't we just make returning Australians pay to make a giant quarantine centre in the middle of WA. We can also make foreign airlines go by Alice Springs first to drop all those dirty CoVID infected citizens off and then load them on charter flights that returned citizens pay for as well.

You know it's their fault, they should have come home sooner.
50 thousand dollars per person should be a reasonable charge. Half up front and half a loan from CBA. Can't have any Govt footing the bill for anything.

We can also publish their names and photos on the abc website (to shame them) so we can accuse them of putting ordinary Australians live in danger by their selfishness.

[Climb150]

For those who thought that post was serious shame on you.

[rattman]

What about Rottnest / Hamilton Island etc?

Hamilton island would be a logical choice, its got its own airport, close to townsville which is a close has a large regional hospital also has a large army base with aviation and a land craft based there. That said not sure the owner would want reputation the island could gain if turned into a 'plague island'

[Global Aviator]

Why don't we just make returning Australians pay to make a giant quarantine centre in the middle of WA. We can also make foreign airlines go by Alice Springs first to drop all those dirty CoVID infected citizens off and then load them on charter flights that returned citizens pay for as well.

You know it's their fault, they should have come home sooner.
50 thousand dollars per person should be a reasonable charge. Half up front and half a loan from CBA. Can't have any Govt footing the bill for anything.

We can also publish their names and photos on the abc website (to shame them) so we can accuse them of putting ordinary Australians live in danger by their selfishness.

Love it, please post this in mainstream media to catch a whale!

[Joker89]

No other government has abandoned its citizens like Australia has. It’s a disgrace. Now we have international students able to enter ahead of passport holders.

[dream747]

No other government has abandoned its citizens like Australia has. It’s a disgrace. Now we have international students able to enter ahead of passport holders.

I don’t understand it too, there are many other countries that are smaller, much more densely populated, can find avenues to have ample dedicated quarantine facilities for returning citizens. There’s so much land and space in Australia, surely more could be done?

[dr dre]

Hamilton island would be a logical choice, its got its own airport, close to townsville which is a close has a large regional hospital also has a large army base with aviation and a land craft based there. That said not sure the owner would want reputation the island could gain if turned into a 'plague island'

You would probably want the quarantine facilities near airports than can accept widebodies for direct international services. Less need for connecting internal flights. I'm thinking Curtin, Scherger, Alice Springs, quite a few of the FIFO ports (if any can be temporarily spared for quarantine use), Woomera, Rockhampton. Christmas Island could be an option although it could be a bit tight for some widebodies.

I don’t understand it too, there are many other countries that are smaller, much more densely populated, can find avenues to have ample dedicated quarantine facilities for returning citizens. There’s so much land and space in Australia, surely more could be done?

Far more can be done, it's just that no one wants to. More interested in arguing with each other and playing the blame game.

This situation will still be ongoing for at least a year, until vaccine uptake is widespread enough to dispense with mandatory 2 week quarantine.

[Joker89]

Don’t think the vaccine is going to solve much to begin with. The vaccine prevents the disease not the infection. So one can in theory carry the virus and spread it even if immune.

given the amount of quarantine and nasal scrapes of young and healthy citizens vaccine may not stop governments wanting to continue this trend.

The only hope is governments can use the vaccine to get themselves out of this mess where they have scared the population into submission.

[Global Aviator]

Yep wide-body airports make sense -

Hence why HS popular. The crazy thing is there are a few other ex workers villages in the area that could be utilised that aren’t, there is even one at the airport I’m told.

Anything around Wellcamp? Townsville?

The only problem here is we are talking common sense so it won’t happen.

Lets face it, it took 5 months for the government to actually get proactive and crank up Qantas charters.

Oh also, not only student but fruit pickers first, another plane load snuck into Brisbane the other day barely noticed at all!

[ScepticalOptomist]

Don’t think the vaccine is going to solve much to begin with. The vaccine prevents the disease not the infection. So one can in theory carry the virus and spread it even if immune.

With enough vaccinated, it’s a moot point, isn’t it?

[jrfsp]

It seems the latest infection of a hotel worked in Sydney came from Self Isolating US based air crew......why are these crew not in the same hotels as returned travelers.....seems a big risk?

[dr dre]

With enough vaccinated, it’s a moot point, isn’t it?

Vaccines get the bodies immune system ready to fight off the infection the second it hits the body, instead of unvaccinated infection which allows the virus to get a foothold over several days before the bodies immune system creates antibodies to fight it off. So whilst the virus may technically infect the body, the sickness is less severe or non existent. Less severe or non existent symptoms means less likelihood of virus spread in the community, and eventually if a critical mass of vaccinations is reached (herd immunity), the pandemic ceases as there's nowhere for the virus to go.

[Climb150]

It seems the latest infection of a hotel worked in Sydney came from Self Isolating US based air crew......why are these crew not in the same hotels as returned travelers.....seems a big risk?
Friends of mine who fly into Australia said they stayed at quarantine hotels. How exactly did a hotel staff member get close enough to a person to catch it?

[Joker89]

With enough vaccinated, it’s a moot point, isn’t it?

so what is the benchmark for vaccines, are kids and young people with almost zero chance of dying from this going to be forced to have Jab, or just everyone over 50/60? None of this has been discussed so I don’t see borders opening soon after a vaccine is made available but I hope I’m wrong.

[dr dre]

so what is the benchmark for vaccines, are kids and young people with almost zero chance of dying from this going to be forced to have Jab, or just everyone over 50/60? None of this has been discussed so I don’t see borders opening soon after a vaccine is made available but I hope I’m wrong.

Everyone is vaccinated, inc kids, healthy people, younger people and those under 60, as their mass vaccination aids in gaining herd immunity in the population which stops it spreading to the yet to be vaccinated vulnerable populations like over 60s and those with pre existing conditions.

[KRviator]

Everyone is vaccinated, inc kids, healthy people, younger people and those under 60, as their mass vaccination aids in gaining herd immunity in the population which stops it spreading to the yet to be vaccinated vulnerable populations like over 60s and those with pre existing conditions.Yeah, nah. I won't be getting it, and neither will the kidlets.

I'm certainly not an anti-vaxxer, I'm all for standard vaccinations and the entire family is as up to date as we can be, but, both the KRviatrix and I have concerns about the speed with which these vaccines have progressed from development, through testing to distribution. I get that part of it is because there are so many companies etc collaborating on development & testing, but I'll wait a bit longer until I roll up the sleeves. History is littered with examples of "It was a good idea at the time..."

[goodonyamate]

And if your employer has a no jab no work policy? What then?

[neville_nobody]

And if your employer has a no jab no work policy? What then?

It will be interesting if anyone can actually enforce staff to take a vaccination against their own wishes. The next question will be is the employer then liable if there is some unintended side affect from the 'mandatory' vaccination. It would be pretty ironic if there was to be some issue then a percentage of your workforce lose their medicals as a result.

There are also different versions of the vaccine so it all depends on which one is in Australia. Some are the more traditional versions with weak strains of the virus whilst others add to your DNA to help combat Covid-19

[ScepticalOptomist]

so what is the benchmark for vaccines, are kids and young people with almost zero chance of dying from this going to be forced to have Jab, or just everyone over 50/60? None of this has been discussed so I don’t see borders opening soon after a vaccine is made available but I hope I’m wrong.

You would imagine those in the highest risk demographic, followed by whoever wants it - like every other vaccine?
Travelling OS will be a different matter as I’d say most countries will require vaccination - just like we all used to do years ago. Nothing really knew here in regards to expectations I believe.

[Joker89]

I’m not injecting my kids with a vaccine that isn’t required. Covid19 will burn out on its own accord

[patty50]

so what is the benchmark for vaccines, are kids and young people with almost zero chance of dying from this going to be forced to have Jab, or just everyone over 50/60?

Hard to see how surprise side effects might pop up that are worse than the virus. There are plenty of bad things that can happen to someone other than dying. A lot of less than old people have had very unpleasant experiences with this virus. The shortness of breath apparently gets bad enough that you think you’ll die even if your O2 is still good. Sounds traumatic.

Love to see polls of people who’ve had it and see whether they wish they had a vaccine and its associated risk.

[vne165]

+1 Joker.....

[boeinga320]

Love to see polls of people who’ve had it and see whether they wish they had a vaccine and its associated risk.

I had it about 2 months ago. Woke up with a sore throat for 4 days. Bit of a cough at night. Cup of tea in the morning and I was good to go. I couldn't believe that was the reason I went from flying a plane to delivering pizzas :cool:
I didn't even think of going for a test, except work required it. Makes you wonder how many people would test positive and what the survival rate would then look like.

[Slezy9]

It will be interesting if anyone can actually enforce staff to take a vaccination against their own wishes. The next question will be is the employer then liable if there is some unintended side affect from the 'mandatory' vaccination.

Hello, Defence force calling... There are mandatory vacations that are required or you’re kicked out. I have no doubt the COVID vaccine will mandatory. If the ADF can do it then maybe other employers can?

[neville_nobody]

The ADF aren't a normal employer, you sign away everything when you join up.

[ruprecht]

The ADF aren't a normal employer, you sign away everything when you join up.

The military is where they take away your rights and reintroduce them as privileges. :E

[kiwi grey]

You would probably want the quarantine facilities near airports than can accept widebodies for direct international services. Less need for connecting internal flights. I'm thinking Curtin, Scherger, Alice Springs, quite a few of the FIFO ports (if any can be temporarily spared for quarantine use), Woomera, Rockhampton. Christmas Island could be an option although it could be a bit tight for some widebodies.

Far more can be done, it's just that no one wants to. More interested in arguing with each other and playing the blame game.
.

If the major city hotels weren't being used for Hotel Quarantine, they'd be empty, all their staff on the dole, no GST being paid by the hotel company or their employed staff.
On the contra side, the government would have to pay for setting up / maintaining, staffing and guarding these quarantine facilities in the remote areas.
That's why "no one wants to" do this.
$$$$$$$$$

BTW, we've had the same suggestions in NZ from opposition MPs "build a big new quarantine centre at RNZAF Base Ohakea".
I suspect that someone explained the financial facts of life, they've gone all quiet on it.

[morno]

Yeah, nah. I won't be getting it, and neither will the kidlets.

I'm certainly not an anti-vaxxer, I'm all for standard vaccinations and the entire family is as up to date as we can be, but, both the KRviatrix and I have concerns about the speed with which these vaccines have progressed from development, through testing to distribution. I get that part of it is because there are so many companies etc collaborating on development & testing, but I'll wait a bit longer until I roll up the sleeves. History is littered with examples of "It was a good idea at the time..."

It’s not 1950, it’s 2020. I don’t think the speed makes one iota of difference.

There is risk with all vaccines, yet I’m guessing that you have had all those.

I’ll do whatever I have to do to get the world back to normal.

[C441]

And if your employer has a no jab no work policy? What then?
Even if it is not a requirement of your employer it may well be a requirement of various other countries on your airline's network.
As was the case with a couple of countries not permitting crew over 65, it may see some pilots having to move to a domestic fleet if they aren't prepared to be vaccinated.

[dr dre]

Yeah, nah. I won't be getting it, and neither will the kidlets.
I'm certainly not an anti-vaxxer ....but, both the KRviatrix and I have concerns about the speed with which these vaccines have progressed from development, through testing to distribution.

I’m not injecting my kids with a vaccine that isn’t required. Covid19 will burn out on its own accord

I had it about 2 months ago. Woke up with a sore throat for 4 days. Bit of a cough at night. Cup of tea in the morning and I was good to go. I couldn't believe that was the reason I went from flying a plane to delivering pizzas https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/cool.gif

Damn, didn't realise we had so many medical professionals posting here. Makes you wonder why anyone would bother to go to university and study science when we have geniuses here who can say with authority they know more than the "so called experts".

And people wonder why the virus is tearing through a lot of other nations.......

[kingRB]

It’s not 1950, it’s 2020. I don’t think the speed makes one iota of difference.

There is risk with all vaccines, yet I’m guessing that you have had all those.


you might want to look at how many vaccines have gone wrong since 1950. Medical science still screws up routinely.

When the head of Pfizer admits they are not even sure if you can still transmit the virus when vaccinated and "it needs to be looked into more" - for the sake of a virus that will burn out by itself, and has negligible consequence on people with a normal, healthy metabolic system,
yeah, I think i'll pass. Just the same as I don't bother getting a flu vaccine because i'm not in any risk category that would warrant bothering.

As expected, vaccines that are used to combat serious disease / risk of being life altering or death are being conflated with this Corona virus vaccine.

I’ll do whatever I have to do to get the world back to normal.

That's also kinda the problem summed up in one sentence - the world, our economies and that thin veil of what we thought were our freedoms has been absolutely trashed and taken advantage of by Government and corporations by this very attitude.

[Turnleft080]

The difference between a pro-vaccine person and a anti-vaccine person.

Pro-vaccine person believes a drug can counteract the bad bacteria that has caused the infection. This has been going on for the last 200 years.
Anti-vaccine person believes good bacteria that counteracts the bad bacteria prevents infection in the first place. This has been going on for the last 5000 years.

That's the dilemma in a nutshell not an argument. As time has evolved the chemical/physical/emotional stress has built slowly, century after century.
Don't forget the gut has trillions of bad bacteria at any one time and your gut is 80% of your immune system. The way you counteract that bacteria is your business
and no one else's.

[morno]

Ohh FFS :ugh:

Better turn off all your EGPWS alerts and TCAS systems as well. They’re preventing you from dieing just like a vaccine.

God there are some paranoid people on here.

And the virus will die out will it? That’s why countries are into their 3rd and 4th waves and the US has just recorded some massive increase in the case rate.

[morno]

The difference between a pro-vaccine person and a anti-vaccine person.

Pro-vaccine person believes a drug can counteract the bad bacteria that has caused the infection. This has been going on for the last 200 years.
Anti-vaccine person believes good bacteria that counteracts the bad bacteria prevents infection in the first place. This has been going on for the last 5000 years.

That's the dilemma in a nutshell not an argument. As time has evolved the chemical/physical/emotional stress has built slowly, century after century.
Don't forget the gut has trillions of bad bacteria at any one time and your gut is 80% of your immune system. The way you counteract that bacteria is your business
and no one else's.

So you’d rather go through the pain and suffering of getting these diseases and the painful aftermath?

Ask someone who had polio as a kid if they would have liked a vaccine.

[Green.Dot]

Damn, didn't realise we had so many medical professionals posting here. Makes you wonder why anyone would bother to go to university and study science when we have geniuses here who can say with authority they know more than the "so called experts"...

Ha ha- says you!

I believe the famous dr dre wrote this yesterday... Vaccines get the bodies immune system ready to fight off the infection the second it hits the body, instead of unvaccinated infection which allows the virus to get a foothold over several days before the bodies immune system creates antibodies to fight it off. So whilst the virus may technically infect the body, the sickness is less severe or non existent. Less severe or non existent symptoms means less likelihood of virus spread in the community

My apologies if you are actually a real medical doctor who found his/her way on to regularly posting on a pilots forum...