All borders to reopen.

[dr dre]

Ha ha- says you!
I believe the famous dr dre wrote this yesterday...
My apologies if you are actually a real medical doctor who found his/her way on to regularly posting on a pilots forum...

Nope. here's the difference.
I'm posting a paraphrased version of what 99% of medical experts (all minus the quacks) know. I sourced it from a World Health Organisation document here:
How do vaccines work? (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/covid-19-vaccines/how-do-vaccines-work)
Those who say they know more than the "so called experts" were saying Covid is going to die naturally, is not a problem as their symptoms were mild, and thought they knew more about vaccine approval than the specialists. These are not positions supported by the overwhelming bulk of medical experts.

[Joker89]

And Dr Dre, 99% of what governments are doing is not backed by scientific evidence either. While they don’t look at the excess mortality, impact of masks and lockdowns etc they expect people to listen to them when they say, you must have a vaccine.

There has never been a requirement for a vaccine for a corona virus before and new technologies have been used to try and create one now in record time.

Nothing makes sense anymore but I think each individual has a right to choose, to look at the evidence and make their own mind up, not follow the scaremongers and sign their rights away even more.

[Turnleft080]

So you’d rather go through the pain and suffering of getting these diseases and the painful aftermath?

Ask someone who had polio as a kid if they would have liked a vaccine.

No their wouldn't be any pain or suffering in the first place because your immune system would counteract the bacteria.

Polio was and still is a disease invented by man by poor sanitory and poor water quality. Hence your bad bacteria has well and
truly defeated your good bacteria. That's why you get sick.

Poliomyelitis, commonly shortened to polio, is an infectious disease (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease) caused by the poliovirus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliovirus).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio#cite_note-PinkBook2009-1) In about 0.5 percent of cases, it moves from the gut to affect the central nervous system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system) and there is muscle weakness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_weakness)resulting in a flaccid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaccid_paralysis)Poliovirus is usually spread from person to person through infected fecal matter entering the mouth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal-oral_route).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio#cite_note-PinkBook2009-1) It may also be spread by food or water containing human feces and less commonly from infected saliva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio#cite_note-PinkBook2009-1)[3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio#cite_note-WHO2014-3)

Thank's wikipedia and note the word gut.

[dr dre]

And Dr Dre, 99% of what governments are doing is not backed by scientific evidence either.

Although there’s indifvidual state differences I think most scientists, experts and the governments would agree (some more begrudgingly than others) that masks work, lockdowns help reduce spread and vaccines will be safe and distributed ASAP amongst the masses. Who are you to say what is behind the stopping of the spread is not backed by scientific evidence?

[Joker89]

Although there’s indifvidual state differences I think most scientists, experts and the governments would agree (some more begrudgingly than others) that masks work, lockdowns help reduce spread and vaccines will be safe and distributed ASAP amongst the masses. Who are you to say what is behind the stopping of the spread is not backed by scientific evidence?

https://youtu.be/m121hAiREvc

[dr dre]

Ahh, Ivor Cummins, the Chemical engineer turned Diet and health food book swindler who’s now decided, with no public health qualifications or experience, that he knows far more than the “so called experts”.

I can’t be bothered to a sit through an hour of conspiracies from someone who is not remotely qualified to talk about the subject matter. I think he, you and a whole lot of others posting here need to read this, as it explains one of the biggest problems with modern society:

The problem with thinking you know more than the experts (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/problem-thinking-know-experts)

[Joker89]

Data is fact, you can draw your own conclusions, everything else is opinions, including yours, no better than the millions of others out there.

[dr dre]

Data is fact, you can draw your own conclusions, everything else is opinions, including yours, no better than the millions of others out there.

Absolute nonsense.

My interpretation of that data has the exact same weight as your interpretation, Ivor Cummins’ interpretation and anyone who does not have sufficient qualification in public health or epidemiology’s interpretation.

Zero.

So next time you break a bone before the Doctor has a chance to look at the x-ray snatch it out of his hand and tell him his mere “opinion” on it has the same weight as the receptionist or the practice cleaner. Or your own.

It doesn’t matter how persuasive or confident charlatans like Ivor Cummins are. If he’s not influencing opinions of the ones who matter (public health experts and epidemiologists) then his words are nothing more than PR designed for clicks and YouTube views to attract gullible types to his brand to buy his Keto Diet books.

The country that was going for a herd immunity approach (Sweden) (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-28/sweden-paid-too-high-a-price-with-its-rogue-coronavirus-policy/12922932) failed and have now changed course to what the rest of the world is doing.

FFS how did society become so f*cking stupid......

[currawong]

UK commentary as to what works does not really apply to the Australian experience.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&country=GBR~AUS~SWE&region=World&deathsMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc

[unexplained blip]

... and has negligible consequence on people with a normal, healthy metabolic system

I accept Boris Johnson is abnormal, and for that reason he needed ventilation to keep living. I accept Tim Brooke Taylor was gonna die anyway, yada yada.

Where I am currently sitting in my man cave, there are three people who had COVID within 50m of me. Diagonally-opposite neighbour to the NW was a fit ex-navy type in his 50s. One of the initial batch of infectees in the state. Still several kg too light, still not near pre-COVID fitness. Couple in house to the SW, husband is mid 40s in aviation, was a keen cyclist, fitness now shattered. Wife early 40s, also was in good shape, and is only now shaking off recurrent waves of anxiety and again fitness is way off. So don't spout uninformed bull**** about COVID-19 being inconsequential. It is at minimum equivalent to glandular fever for many, with an R value exceeding 1.0 by a big margin, so every ******** will get if it runs free.

Just because some government reactions are over the top fanatical, and causing equivalent damage as the virus, does not make it right to spout rubbish about COVID-19 being nothing to write home about.

And to anyone posting malarkey about COVID not killing too many more people than the flu etc, please show a little bit of common sense and consider what might happen if we were not actively shutting the virus spread down by throwing everything else under bus. FFS.

[morno]

Why don’t those who are talking it down, actually go and get infected if they’re so confident, then tell us how you go afterwards.

Perhaps this is natural selection at play, off you all go

[SOPS]

And in breaking news..

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-05/international-travellers-avoid-quarantine/12954384

More people who think the rules don’t apply to them.. there goes the borders!!!

[JustinHeywood]

The difference between a pro-vaccine person and a anti-vaccine person.

Pro-vaccine person believes a drug can counteract the bad bacteria that has caused the infection. This has been going on for the last 200 years.
Anti-vaccine person believes good bacteria that counteracts the bad bacteria prevents infection in the first place. This has been going on for the last 5000 years.

That's the dilemma in a nutshell not an argument. As time has evolved the chemical/physical/emotional stress has built slowly, century after century.
Don't forget the gut has trillions of bad bacteria at any one time and your gut is 80% of your immune system. The way you counteract that bacteria is your business
and no one else's.

I’m increasing suspicious that you’re just trolling turnleft.

You DO know that we are talking about a virus here, don’t you? And that a bacteria is not a virus?

[boeinga320]

Damn, didn't realise we had so many medical professionals posting here. Makes you wonder why anyone would bother to go to university and study science when we have geniuses here who can say with authority they know more than the "so called experts".

And people wonder why the virus is tearing through a lot of other nations.......

Haha mate woah. I didn't claim to be a medical expert. Just giving my experience of how the virus felt. I'm certainly not anti-vax or anything like that. Real science cannot be disputed. I think what it comes down to more, is that we're entitled to our core beliefs. Some people believe that death is unacceptable. Others believe that birth and death is the most natural thing in the world. And before you say that's insensitive of me, I am fully aware that my death is also inevitable. Nature suggests "survival of the fittest, to the benefit of the herd". You can have the opinion that we haven't been strict enough with lockdowns. I can have the opinion that we have been too strict and it may possibly have a lasting affect on young peoples lives for decades to come. But to say right now that either of us knows for certain is a naive point of view.

[wheels_down]

And in breaking news..

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-05/international-travellers-avoid-quarantine/12954384

More people who think the rules don’t apply to them.. there goes the borders!!!
This and hotels are just ticking time bombs until the next cluster surfaces as a result. Whoever is responsible for the process breakdowns with these people need to be charged.

Still have people working multiple jobs at Hotels.

The Premiers have said they will not close the borders unless a significant outbreak is created, however I don’t think they will hesitate one bit if they can sniff a hotel or airport leakage problem about to surface. She normally gives Sydney a 48hr threat so you might be able to just get home in time.

[Ragnor]

How is it possible his late in the game, that international travelers are able to skip hotel quarantine. Australia needs to grow a set and start criminally charging these ppl.

This is the ticking time bomb that needs to be addressed by not allowing international arrivals to capital city’s anymore risk is to high to us.

[Turnleft080]

How is it possible his late in the game, that international travelers are able to skip hotel quarantine. Australia needs to grow a set and start criminally charging these ppl.

This is the ticking time bomb that needs to be addressed by not allowing international arrivals to capital city’s anymore risk is to high to us.

They (the 2 German tourists I think ) not only escaped quarantine, they escaped officials at SYD International then had to either train it, or bus it, to the
domestic side to catch the Virgin flight. Problem identified at MEL airport the last piece of swiss cheese blocked. All pax and flight crew texted. Wow.
What about those on the train or bus?

[neville_nobody]

Looks like the security/quarantine theater show is on again. What on earth are these government officials doing to allow two foreign nationals to literally walk straight into Australia? What is the point of all the restrictions, the economic damage etc when you can just walk straight in? Lets not forget all the other stuff ups that seem to be at the hand of the government officials this year too. This year has seen the vast majority of the population do the right thing only to have the government at one level or another screw it up.

[Ragnor]

NSW has done very well through out this, but, this latest is almost unforgivable. Yes there will be outbreaks and cases but this should never have happens. NSW police let these two escape, as news is coming in its apparent it could of been lining up in the line for the bus when the two told police they had exemption to on travel, luckily to the diligent airport staff in ML this was picked up and reported.
This whole not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings give them a pat on the back tell them to try harder next time etc is rubbish. This virus has killed caused economic damage and heartache. Ppl need to be held accountable over this or stop the international arrivals.

[josephfeatherweight]

I accept Boris Johnson is abnormal, and for that reason he needed ventilation to keep living. I accept Tim Brooke Taylor was gonna die anyway, yada yada.

Where I am currently sitting in my man cave, there are three people who had COVID within 50m of me. Diagonally-opposite neighbour to the NW was a fit ex-navy type in his 50s. One of the initial batch of infectees in the state. Still several kg too light, still not near pre-COVID fitness. Couple in house to the SW, husband is mid 40s in aviation, was a keen cyclist, fitness now shattered. Wife early 40s, also was in good shape, and is only now shaking off recurrent waves of anxiety and again fitness is way off. So don't spout uninformed bull**** about COVID-19 being inconsequential. It is at minimum equivalent to glandular fever for many, with an R value exceeding 1.0 by a big margin, so every ******** will get if it runs free.

Just because some government reactions are over the top fanatical, and causing equivalent damage as the virus, does not make it right to spout rubbish about COVID-19 being nothing to write home about.

And to anyone posting malarkey about COVID not killing too many more people than the flu etc, please show a little bit of common sense and consider what might happen if we were not actively shutting the virus spread down by throwing everything else under bus. FFS.

Well said and interesting to get this perspective from someone who has witnessed it, first hand. I don't know anyone who has had it, so I appreciate your view and agree with everything you've said.

[dr dre]

They (the 2 German tourists I think ) not only escaped quarantine, they escaped officials at SYD International then had to either train it, or bus it, to the
domestic side to catch the Virgin flight. Problem identified at MEL airport the last piece of swiss cheese blocked.

Again the common denominator.

Sydney Airport International terminal, city train or city bus to Domestic terminal, Melbourne airport terminal. All staff and passengers using those transport hubs then move all over those cities, potentially spreading it in every direction.

Solution? Fly them direct to Curtin, Christmas Island, Alice Springs, Woomera, etc. Problem solved.

[glekichi]

Where I am currently sitting in my man cave, there are three people who had COVID within 50m of me. Diagonally-opposite neighbour to the NW was a fit ex-navy type in his 50s. One of the initial batch of infectees in the state. Still several kg too light, still not near pre-COVID fitness. Couple in house to the SW, husband is mid 40s in aviation, was a keen cyclist, fitness now shattered. Wife early 40s, also was in good shape, and is only now shaking off recurrent waves of anxiety and again fitness is way off. So don't spout uninformed bull**** about COVID-19 being inconsequential.

Amazing to have so many people so close when only one in just under a million Australians have been infected.
Stats show COVID-19 is inconsequential to the vast, vast, majority of those infected.
Your anecdotal evidence is weak.

BTW I do not oppose the vaccine rollout; quite the opposite. No need to be sprouting uninformed anecdotal bull**** though.

[SOPS]

Australians can’t get flights home. How do German tourists get in?

[Fonz121]

Amazing to have so many people so close when only one in just under a million Australians have been infected.

One in just under a million have been infected?! I’m not great at math, but maybe rethink that.

[chookcooker]

One in just under a million have been infected?! I’m not great at math, but maybe rethink that.

ha ha. But pilots are experts at everything dontchya know

[wheels_down]

Australians can’t get flights home. How do German tourists get in?
They need to be sent back if they are tourists.

The Car Rental clerk in Melbourne was the person that apparently raised the concern and called the authorities.

They purchased the Virgin tickets while on the train between terminals. They most certainly had this planned and we need to drop the book hard on these two big time.

[SOPS]

ABC and The West Australian are both reporting them as German nationals. I ask again.. how did they get here in the first place?

[Ragnor]

ABC and The West Australian are both reporting them as German nationals. I ask again.. how did they get here in the first place?

They're German nationals but Australian residents. It was a security guard (not car rental) that raised the alarm. They asked directions for the car rentals then the security guard probed them thats when they (the Germans) requested directions to hotel quarantine. NSW police are owning the f@#k up saying it was a veteran cop but only this cop second day doing hotel quarantine seems they gave him a pat on the back and told him to try harder next time. This guy needs to be disciplined its been going on long enough they should know what to do by now.

[1A_Please]

Australians can’t get flights home. How do German tourists get in?
I was a bit confused by that too.

[michigan j]

I was a bit confused by that too.
About 30% of people getting in arent citizens or permanent residents. 19 000 new visas have been issued since the caps started.

[unexplained blip]

Amazing to have so many people so close when only one in just under a million Australians have been infected.
Stats show COVID-19 is inconsequential to the vast, vast, majority of those infected.
Your anecdotal evidence is weak.

Kind of hilarious -- a pilot (I guess) who doesn't understand chance events, and decides to miscalculate a ratio by about 10^4 ---.Vic is 20K cases from around 6M ppl, that's better than one in a thousand. Anyway:

Person 1 was an early bird, got on the wrong side of the Austrian barman super-spreader. Look it up.
Person 2, stood down person from aviation, caught it via community transmission before than main Vic lockdown.
Person 3 is Mrs Person 2

It's not rare here. It has a pretty good strike rate for messing up 45-somethings and upwards, from what I can tell.
On the positive side, Person 2's antibodies are still rocking a few months later, which is a good sign for vaxxes.

[glekichi]

Kind of hilarious -- a pilot (I guess) who doesn't understand chance events, and decides to miscalculate a ratio by about 10^4 ---.Vic is 20K cases from around 6M ppl, that's better than one in a thousand. Anyway:

Person 1 was an early bird, got on the wrong side of the Austrian barman super-spreader. Look it up.
Person 2, stood down person from aviation, caught it via community transmission before than main Vic lockdown.
Person 3 is Mrs Person 2

It's not rare here. It has a pretty good strike rate for messing up 45-somethings and upwards, from what I can tell.
On the positive side, Person 2's antibodies are still rocking a few months later, which is a good sign for vaxxes.

Yes, I didn't bother too much with the maths and did leave a few zeros off as a result. My error, but that's not the point.
In fact, you've almost made my point for me. Your situation is a highly unusual chance event, just like your other observations about it.
I knew someone who literally died in their 20s from influenza, but I understand that it was just incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing.

[morno]

Yes, I didn't bother too much with the maths and did leave a few zeros off as a result. My error, but that's not the point.
In fact, you've almost made my point for me. Your situation is a highly unusual chance event, just like your other observations about it.
I knew someone who literally died in their 20s from influenza, but I understand that it was just incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing.

So you have scientific evidence to support your claim?

[chookcooker]

Yes, I didn't bother too much with the maths and did leave a few zeros off as a result. My error, but that's not the point.
In fact, you've almost made my point for me. Your situation is a highly unusual chance event, just like your other observations about it.
I knew someone who literally died in their 20s from influenza, but I understand that it was just incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing.
meh. What’s a few zeros between friends.

[SOPS]

And for all of you that think it’s just like the flu .. and you won’t lose your medical if you get it.. you may lose something worse !!


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-symptoms-warning-covid19-causes-erectile-dysfunction/news-story/d301b17e9b5e6e10aaa7125de493f29e

[Transition Layer]

And for all of you that think it’s just like the flu .. and you won’t lose your medical if you get it.. you may lose something worse !!


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/coronavirus-symptoms-warning-covid19-causes-erectile-dysfunction/news-story/d301b17e9b5e6e10aaa7125de493f29e
At least that should guarantee the anti-vaxers won’t be able to reproduce

[unexplained blip]

Yes, I didn't bother too much with the maths and did leave a few zeros off as a result. My error, but that's not the point.
In fact, you've almost made my point for me. Your situation is a highly unusual chance event, just like your other observations about it.
I knew someone who literally died in their 20s from influenza, but I understand that it was just incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing.

There's no assistance from me for your argument, I will recap. Back at post #2283 you demonstrated ignorance of the reality of COVID-19 prevalence in Victoria by a factor of 10,000. You then proceeded to the infer that I had fabricated or embellished a story: "... sprouting uninformed anecdotal bull****...".

Your point, indicated by "... (someone would be) incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing ...", is supported by evidence or professional opinion about COVID-19 from what source? Or personal belief based on observing the world around you, or even wishing it a certain way?

[glekichi]

There's no assistance from me for your argument, I will recap. Back at post #2283 you demonstrated ignorance of the reality of COVID-19 prevalence in Victoria by a factor of 10,000. You then proceeded to the infer that I had fabricated or embellished a story: "... sprouting uninformed anecdotal bull****...".

Your point, indicated by "... (someone would be) incredibly unlucky, just like someone mid 40s actually suffering worse than a common cold from this thing ...", is supported by evidence or professional opinion about COVID-19 from what source? Or personal belief based on observing the world around you, or even wishing it a certain way?

You stated anyone suggesting the virus is inconsequential is "sprouting uninformed bull****" and gave anecdotal evidence that a few neighbours have it thus it's dangerous to those in their 40s.
I suggested that itself is "sprouting uninformed anecdotal bull****" because the data itself shows 99.4% of people with the virus in that age group are either asymptomatic or have only mild symptoms. Your extremely unlucky situation to have so many people at that age with severe symptoms in such a close proximity does not reflect the norm with this virus. That is the only point I was trying to raise.

[goodonyamate]

Even if it is not a requirement of your employer it may well be a requirement of various other countries on your airline's network.
As was the case with a couple of countries not permitting crew over 65, it may see some pilots having to move to a domestic fleet if they aren't prepared to be vaccinated.

no jab....no job....it’s the policy coming to an airline near you. There is no escape....

[Turnleft080]

no jab....no job....it’s the policy coming to an airline near you. There is no escape....

So if you inoculate 10,000 staff, every one of those 10,000 staff have all different immune responses and different metabolisms.
I'II take the jab no problem as long as you can guarantee it won't cause havoc with your pancreas, liver, autonomic nervous system
in 5 years time. Or have they tested all that.
Note all these med companies haven't explained what contents are in the vile.
Usually if you eat something you would like to know what's in the contents as described on the packet.
Doesn't matter about your health in 5 years time, get those planes flying.
You can change me to a pro vaccine any day, if you can get rid of the neurotoxins associated with them.

[ScepticalOptomist]

You stated anyone suggesting the virus is inconsequential is "sprouting uninformed bull****" and gave anecdotal evidence that a few neighbours have it thus it's dangerous to those in their 40s.
I suggested that itself is "sprouting uninformed anecdotal bull****" because the data itself shows 99.4% of people with the virus in that age group are either asymptomatic or have only mild symptoms. Your extremely unlucky situation to have so many people at that age with severe symptoms in such a close proximity does not reflect the norm with this virus. That is the only point I was trying to raise.

Precisely. I know 9 people
who had COVID-19. The worst symptom for 1 of them was a mild temp for a day. The rest suffered from a runny nose, or lack of taste and smell for a week or two.

Doesn’t mean COVID-19 is harmless to everyone - but for over 99% it’s barley an issue.

A lot of people have trouble with statistics....

[Slezy9]

Doesn’t mean COVID-19 is harmless to everyone - but for over 99% it’s barley an issue.

A lot of people have trouble with statistics....

I think you might be the one who has a problem with statistics.

UK death rate is 3.6%
USA death rate is 1.9%

I think it’s safe to say that well over 1% of people who catch COVID have a rather large issue (i.e. they dead). Feel free to educate yourself at the following link,

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

I think it’s also safe to say, well over 1% of people have serious consequences, the US had over 100,000 people in intensive care on 2 Dec.

[compressor stall]

but for over 99% it’s barley an issue.

A lot of people have trouble with statistics....

I can't find my calculator, but can you remind me what 1% of Australia's population would be?

And when the hospitals ICU wards are full, and perfectly healthy you have a stroke / heart attack / car crash injury where do you go? The local medical centre?

[601]

I can't find my calculator, but can you remind me what 1% of Australia's population would be?
I can do that in my head. Based on 25627453 it is 25627
If we had a rate that Belgium has we would be looking at 38636 deaths (https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/australia-population/)
Belgium was being held up as a country that was doing good earlier in the year.

What happened??

[boeinga320]

I think you might be the one who has a problem with statistics.

UK death rate is 3.6%
USA death rate is 1.9%


This data is skewed in that there is a large number of people with the virus who don't get tested. What is clear, is that the more testing that gets done, the more the fatality rate gets reduced. Again, I'm not anti-vax, I will take the vaccine, same as I take the flu vaccine. But fat load of good that's done eliminating the flu.

[Ragnor]

Well, after what I have seen the last two days in Sydney. Domestic appears to be going pretty hard JQ check in packed, central food court and following to JQ side shoulder to shoulder good to see all the shops open again.

[dr dre]

This But fat load of good that's done eliminating the flu.

Because that’s not what it’s purpose is, read these:

It's incorrect to say flu vaccines don't work (https://fullfact.org/online/coronavirus-vaccine-compared-to-flu-vaccine/)

Fact check: Flu vaccine hasn't eradicated the flu, but it has lessened the burden of the virus (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/16/fact-check-flu-vaccine-hasnt-eradicated-virus-but-has-reduced-burden/3319252001/)

[boeinga320]

Touché dr dre. I did exactly what I hate others doing, and tried to make a point using an irrelevant comparison. My apologies. However, having had both covid and the flu, I still feel that all of our opinions on how this thing has been handled are valid because they come from our individual experiences. I understand that certain people feel the lockdowns should be stricter. I understand people are scared, and I can empathise. I also realise that some people are scared of dying, and others are scared of not living. I usually spend my off time jumping out of planes, or surfing. I haven't done either of those things since March. To me, spending a year of my youth hiding from a virus that I've already had; of course I will have a different opinion to someone more vulnerable or risk-averse. I've lost my career, my car, and haven't seen my girlfriend since February due to this. I'm scraping by (got my first big job in Jan, retrenched in March). I'm not looking for sympathy here, just explaining why some people may have differing opinions. I feel like I've done my part (except contracting covid:ugh: but I isolated strictly then). If this vaccine doesn't work, is this us for good? Where do we draw the line on things that have risk? Like what is the exact percentage? Do we ban cars, alcohol, playing rugby? We seem to have completely rejected the fact that we're all going to die at some stage. And for those that are scared, and have already made their money, why can't they just continue doing what they've been doing? Why do the rest of us have to isolate also? Anyways, way off topic sorry, I should be doing something more productive on a Monday. Anyone need to be flown anywhere?:{

[Australopithecus]

But the vaccine does work, with up to 95% effectiveness. It may end up becoming a periodic jab to maintain effectiveness, and if 70% of the population is immunised then the incidence of illness in the community should reduce to manageable levels. If the flat-earth subset of populations continue to embrace stupid behaviours then we will continue to see isolated pockets of disease, but they should in theory be easily contained.

Disclaimer: no graduate degree in this or any related field.

[boeinga320]

By stupid behaviours, is that like going out? Or something more specific? I'm not being facetious, genuinely curious what we will deem to be reckless. Imagine no more partying or traveling or seeing mates.

[Australopithecus]

Good question. By stupid behaviours I guess I was thinking of what we see from America, where people are quick to loudly insist on their rights while completely ignoring their responsibilities. After the vaccine has had wide scale take-up I don’t know what the limits of prudence will dictate. We should always keep the hygiene practices, and where possible, social distancing. Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?

I expect that with enough of the population inoculated Covid-19 will eventually be like the flu: mostly sporadic manageable cases with the odd mortality.

Also understand that I am writing from an Australian perspective. The virus is all but eradicated here, and people are now behaving more normally. We are however aware that international arrivals can spark yet another outbreak that may re-introduce the virus so so e safeguards like masks indoors are still in wide use. The flights are pretty full, and the airport reunions all seem pretty joyous and pretty intimate. Just a few more months (6?) and this will be mostly behind us.

[boeinga320]

Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?.

Before anyone jumps down my throat about not being an expert, I am asking because I genuinely want to learn. I always thought (because I was told), that your immune system gets stronger by being exposed to germs. I thought exercise, eating veggies, letting kids play in dirt, were all factors? Now its avoid everything at all costs. If we have kids soon, do doctors recommend keeping them as sanitised as possible? Again, I am seriously not being facetious. It just seems that we have drastically changed our thinking over the last few months.

[dr dre]

By stupid behaviours, is that like going out? Or something more specific? I'm not being facetious, genuinely curious what we will deem to be reckless. Imagine no more partying or traveling or seeing mates.

Not wearing masks, large gatherings amongst maskless/unvaccinated crowds, failing to isolate/seek medical care when sick etc. If lockdown restrictions have to be temporarily put back in place organising a "Covid Truth" protest.....

Like was said for the most part these aren't a factor in Australia. Look at how much media attention the one case of the German tourists (it was not their stuff up btw, it was NSW Police) attracted and they did not even have the virus. These points are a factor in other nations, just last week in the US a one day death toll exceeded those killed in the WTC attacks, and the numbers are spiking upward through their dark winter.

Now you can travel around Australia, see mates, party for the most part at bars and restaurants. Once the vaccine uptake is widespread here and protocols for allowing immunised travelers into the country are put in place that will be extended to overseas travel. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

[unexplained blip]

By stupid behaviours, is that like going out? Or something more specific? I'm not being facetious, genuinely curious what we will deem to be reckless. Imagine no more partying or traveling or seeing mates.

boeinga320, I truly can't comprehend why people under (say) 30 are putting up with this, and as far as I can tell, it is not destined to get better any time soon. I don't have any insight into South African strategy (where you seem to be from, a/c username data), but UK vax strategy is public and Australian will follow fairly soon. UK vax policy is all about avoiding mortality - URL is too long to post, google for "Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation: advice on priority groups for COVID-19 vaccination". NOTHING in that paper talks about needs and aspirations of age cohorts who have little to be concerned about when it comes to COVID (except passing it on to their oldies or unusually vulnerable friends). There is NOTHING in the reasoning for prioritization about restoring normality, enjoyment, freedom, etc for say under 30's. Does not rate a mention. The Australian 2021 vax program is predicated on X million doses (X / 2 million vax, @ 2x dose per person, where I can't say what X is due confidentiality, but it is way south of 26.5), with anything beyond that being good fortune. Present indications are that it's near-identical to UK policy.

Turns out (according to model based analyses) that if the objective was to reduce the size and duration of outbreaks, so that we could relax social distancing and give maximum social freedom, then we'd concentrate on vaccinating the people in high-contact professions immediately after covering the healthcare and critical professions like firefighters and defence personnel. But nup, after healthcare they're working their way down the age curve, oldies first - despite the fact that the elderly spread the virus less (they are more commonly "sinks" in the social networks) compared to taxi drivers, people in retail, etc etc. Basically every vax given to an oldie just protects them, there is no (disease spread( spinoff benefit for society more broadly.

I fear that Dec 2021 could still look a lot like Dec 2020 for much of the world's younger generations, and FWIW, they have my blessing to act up about this.

We should have seen so much more innovation around maintaining normality and enjoyment for the under-30s during the COVID period. But when doctors are put in charge, alongside mainly married-with-children middle aged+ pollies, that is just not on the radar.

[dr dre]

Would it be a bad thing to embrace the Asian habit of wearing a mask when suffering from a cold?

It would be a great thing. Covid Deaths per 1 million (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/) of population in selected countries:

Japan 18
China 3
South Korea 11
Malaysia 12
Vietnam 0.5
Thailand 1
Singapore 5

And some western countries for comparison:

USA 870
UK 900
France 840
Brazil 830
Italy 1000

I think it would be a very beneficial thing for Australia to adopt far more aspects of Asian culture into our own than just the wearing of masks.

[compressor stall]

I can do that in my head. Based on 25627453 it is 25627


Try it with a calculator. Do you get the same answer?

[boeinga320]

unexplained blip, exactly. Everyone who tells me to stay home and isolate, can either work from home, or has money saved up. And they say that I should have saved more (fair enough and lesson learned, but I'm 29 years old). I got sent home from Dubai to a country that pays 31 Aussie dollars unemployment per month and since March I am yet to receive that. I have a uni degree in Computer Science and economics, and the best job I could find was delivering pizzas. When I got covid 2 months ago, I was told how irresponsible I've been by driving around. Again, not looking for sympathy, but sometimes people don't seem to realise that not everyone has a nice trust fund or big savings to live off. I realise I don't really have the right to be posting on an Aussie forum so I'll stop after this one. Chins up everyone and let's hope this nonsense is nearly over. I'm off to deliver another Margherita. Fingers crossed for a tip.

[unexplained blip]

boeinga320 let me guess. Even though you have had COVID-19 *and* the governments of the world are obsessed with vaccines and how quickly they can get hold of them, you have gone and got yourself vaccinated naturally, and yet have not one jot of extra freedom or privilege --- despite having obtained exactly what they are all so desperately scrambling and longing for? And since then, nobody has asked you to step into a critical role to exploit your immune status - am I right? You are not flying freight around the globe, carefree and safe as houses? Drafted into Medivac? Tending to the sick and needy? Nup, you are delivering pizza.

And it is exactly the same here. It's infuriating.

[Bignose101]

boeinga320 let me guess. Even though you have had COVID-19 *and* the governments of the world are obsessed with vaccines and how quickly they can get hold of them, you have gone and got yourself vaccinated naturally, and yet have not one jot of extra freedom or privilege --- despite having obtained exactly what they are all so desperately scrambling and longing for? And since then, nobody has asked you to step into a critical role to exploit your immune status - am I right? You are not flying freight around the globe, carefree and safe as houses? Drafted into Medivac? Tending to the sick and needy? Nup, you are delivering pizza.

And it is exactly the same here. It's infuriating.

Awesome.... Shame people can catch Covid-19 twice (or more) 'that’s the emerging consensus among health experts who are learning more about the possibility that those who’ve recovered from the coronavirus can get it again'

[unexplained blip]

Awesome.... Shame people can catch Covid-19 twice (or more) 'that’s the emerging consensus among health experts who are learning more about the possibility that those who’ve recovered from the coronavirus can get it again'

I'm only aware of reports of this occurring in rare cases where there remains conjecture about what recurrence is indicating, and where symptoms are mild. If there is a considerable swing towards reinfection, then vaccination programs like Australia's proposed one that don't get everyone done in a short period (rather, less than a third annually), are in trouble. In the worst case we're back at an exclusion strategy again.

Even PCR (swab) tests are maximum just over 75% reliable (!!) and so people as potential recurrence cases would need blood analysis done in order to be confirmed. Pseudo-reinfection, or long-running infection that was never fully cleared, masked by dud PCR tests is an option that remains in play at least in theory.

Immunized people present surfaces for transporting the virus, and some people might have a residual susceptibility (what infectivity that will relate to is unknown), So some precautions may remain necessary. Nevertheless these previously-infected people are an asset that at least in Australia don't seem to be being utilized, and this is inconsistent other strategy elements. Aircrew going o/s still have to isolate for two weeks despite their personal COVID history afaik.

There was a philosophical decision early on to dismiss the idea of an immunity passport for those that caught the virus naturally. Maybe this was because there'd then be a whole lot of frustrated under-30s licking each other with the intention of gaining freedom? This policy has stuck and also remains at odds with the vaccination orientation. I am cynical and put it down to medicine's god-complex mixed-in with a lack of imagination and innovation of behalf of our governments.

[currawong]

"There was a philosophical decision early on to dismiss the idea of an immunity passport for those that caught the virus naturally. Maybe this was because there'd then be a whole lot of frustrated under-30s licking each other with the intention of gaining freedom? This policy has stuck and also remains at odds with the vaccination orientation. I am cynical and put it down to medicine's god-complex mixed-in with a lack of imagination and innovation of behalf of our governments."

"dud PCR tests"

Kind of answered your own question there.

[Ragnor]

What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesn’t want to catch cooties from him.

[Roj approved]

What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesn’t want to catch cooties from him.

My mother in law and the rest of the family live in WA, and I can assure you they are more than happy with us COVID carrying eastern staters to stay out of WA. They are a very parochial bunch anyway, but this has just reinforced it. They love McGowan, but word on the street is they don’t have a contact tracing division, or a decent supply of respirators and other ICU type medical equipment, and after the SA blip, they are madly trying to get their act together just in case.

[currawong]

What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool? He is not attending national cabinet in Canberra because SM the SA premier is attending saying he doesn’t want to catch cooties from him.

As a tax payer I would like to see all of them doing a lot more on zoom....

[Potsie Weber]

My mother in law and the rest of the family live in WA, and I can assure you they are more than happy with us COVID carrying eastern staters to stay out of WA. They are a very parochial bunch anyway, but this has just reinforced it. They love McGowan, but word on the street is they don’t have a contact tracing division, or a decent supply of respirators and other ICU type medical equipment, and after the SA blip, they are madly trying to get their act together just in case.

Rubbish! WA has had an automated monitoring and contact tracing system in place since April. 50 staff with a standby pool of 400, expanding to 1000. 4691 additional response pool positions in medicine, nursing, pathology etc. Surge capacity ICU beds to 647, 273 ventilators (90 more on order) giving an estimate to manage 25,800 active cases. Targeting 40wks of PPE (Some items at this level, remaining around 18wks supply). Aged care response plan tested in August. All documented in Attorney Generals report in September. GtoG App with ability to home isolate (photo schedule messaging) and just implemented QR code sign in app for restaurants etc.

[patty50]

What does McIdiot over in the west have to gain by carrying on like a 2 yr old kid do WA ppl really like this fool?

Plenty of WA ppl have never been to the east coast and simply don’t care. They’re happy to keep the plague out.

I don’t really understand why East Coasters care about WA, with the vast majority of us having nothing to do with the sandgropers. Queensland and NSW border on the other hand is understandable, there’s a huge mixing of people.

[Ragnor]

I don't care to much for the West either, there are others that do for reason like family employment etc. Still no need for an elected leader to carry on like a child, its the whole school yard taunt " I don't want to touch him he has cooties"

[Ladloy]

I don't care to much for the West either, there are others that do for reason like family employment etc. Still no need for an elected leader to carry on like a child, its the whole school yard taunt " I don't want to touch him he has cooties"
If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.

[Green.Dot]

If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.

Yeah shame on Gladys for being the only Premier with the confidence and intellect to balance an economy and pandemic at the same time.

[dr dre]

If he had gone and met with Marshall you'd call him a hypocrite. He stuck to his own rules, which is more than can be said for Gladys.

Say what you will about McGowan at least he’s been consistent. He‘s stuck by his own rules even though it’s separated him and his family in NSW this whole time. And he didn’t bend the rules to give them an exemption. Pretty consistent and non-corrupt if you ask me. Isn’t that what we seek in leaders?

[dr dre]

There’s been a lot of talk about this vaccine being “rushed”, which has led some to believe it is not safe. Experts have said even though the process of development was expedited this vaccine had gone through just as much of a rigorous approval as any other vaccine.

Much of the genetic work had already been done on the similar SARS and MERS viruses. The genome of Covid was sequenced very quickly. An unbelievable amount of funding has been put into the development process. Many of the trial processes were expedited. Not “rushed”, but administrative delays were reduced. Just like pilots can expedite a turnaround but still do everything required for safety, so can vaccine researchers if they need to. No corners have been cut.

Here’s some articles from people who would know, various Professors of Immunology and Directors of Vaccine Research:

Less than a year to develop a COVID vaccine – here’s why you shouldn’t be alarmed (https://theconversation.com/less-than-a-year-to-develop-a-covid-vaccine-heres-why-you-shouldnt-be-alarmed-150414)

Oxford vaccine: How did they make it so quickly? (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55041371)

[Ladloy]

Yeah shame on Gladys for being the only Premier with the confidence and intellect to balance an economy and pandemic at the same time.
Last I checked WA is doing pretty well. A lot of pilots over there never stopped flying too.

[Green.Dot]

Last I checked WA is doing pretty well. A lot of pilots over there never stopped flying too.

Stunning job Mark, congratulations to you.

The flying didn’t stop because of the INTRAstate routes. More luck for those pilots than anything. Same with QLD.

[JustinHeywood]

There’s been a lot of talk about this vaccine being “rushed”.....

Here’s some articles [on vaccine safety] from people who would know, various Professors of Immunology and Directors of Vaccine Research:

Less than a year to develop a COVID vaccine – here’s why you shouldn’t be alarmed (https://theconversation.com/less-than-a-year-to-develop-a-covid-vaccine-heres-why-you-shouldnt-be-alarmed-150414)

Oxford vaccine: How did they make it so quickly? (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55041371)


Pffft! What would they know? Anyway, they are probably just shills for Big Pharma.

To counteract your so-called 'experts', I could post a link to a YouTube video from some dude called Kevin from Byron Bay,
he doesn't give his qualifications, but he's definitely a smart guy cos the video echoes exactly my 'gut feeling' about this whole Corona bs, - and he's not a shill for anybody because he's on the DSP with a nice side gig selling Tofu sandwiches at the Farmer's market .

So my message to you is; ignore these experts, do your own resurch!

[SOPS]

Stunning job Mark, congratulations to you
What he said.

[Ladloy]

Stunning job Mark, congratulations to you.

The flying didn’t stop because of the INTRAstate routes. More luck for those pilots than anything. Same with QLD.
Plenty of intrastate routes in NSW and Vic that are at a stand still.

[brokenagain]

As unlikely as it would be, if China decides to put tariffs on iron ore, WA will need every single cent from the east coast that it could get its hand on.

[jrfsp]

As unlikely as it would be, if China decides to put tariffs on iron ore, WA will need every single cent from the east coast that it could get its hand on.

If that happens the whole country is f***ed

[plainmaker]

The truth is China NEEDS the ore - their other options from South America and South Africa are stuffed. Africa, the logistics mechanism does not work (corruption and infrastructure issues rampant) and Peru is halted by virtue of the dam collapse. If the ore stops, then China's growth is impacted massively.
Part of me actually wishes that WA puts a tariff on ore going to China - play them at their own game.

[Ragnor]

So guessing WA will close to NSW tomorrow

[belly tank]

So guessing WA will close to NSW tomorrow

He must be frothing at the mouth to announce it!

[KRviator]

Open all of 8 days and I reckon it's going to close 9 days before Christmas. Yep, this on-again/off-again response is going swimmingly!

If Mark McGoose want's to play silly buggers, Gladys should take a leaf from his play book and ban everyone crossing the International border into NSW and see how the states react. If they don't want NSW residents crossing their borders, well, two can play that game.

[aussieflyboy]

If WA close the Border Qantas and Virgin should just ground all flights for 48 hours. Pressure from the mine sites would have the Borders open within 3 hours.

Im sure this open/shut business has cost QF as much as the industrial issues they had the last time they grounded everything.

[layman]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-17/are-airline-crews-weakest-link-in-coronavirus-quarantine/12989508

For those who haven’t heard, the current ‘community spread’ cases in Sydney originated from a minibus driver transporting aircrew to their accommodation.

To reduce the risk posed by aircrews, the suggestion from at least one epidemiologist, is for the ADF or Police to take over crew transfers.

[blubak]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-17/are-airline-crews-weakest-link-in-coronavirus-quarantine/12989508

For those who haven’t heard, the current ‘community spread’ cases in Sydney originated from a minibus driver transporting aircrew to their accommodation.

To reduce the risk posed by aircrews, the suggestion from at least one epidemiologist, is for the ADF or Police to take over crew transfers.
Would be interesting to know if the driver was wearing a mask & also if this was his only job or 1 of many.
We in melbourne hated having to wear masks but after enduring a few months of it it now feels half normal & rightly or wrongly gives a feeling of protecting oneself.
All of us australia wide need to keep this virus out of our lives.

[thorn bird]

"To reduce the risk posed by aircrews, the suggestion from at least one epidemiologist, is for the ADF or Police to take over crew transfers."

Would that really reduce the risk? Maybe have the driver in full PPE might reduce the risk, but ADF or police are not immune to catching this cold.

The biggest "risk" facing Australia are politicians and bureaucrats playing power games for their own self interest.

[Ragnor]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-17/are-airline-crews-weakest-link-in-coronavirus-quarantine/12989508

For those who haven’t heard, the current ‘community spread’ cases in Sydney originated from a minibus driver transporting aircrew to their accommodation.

To reduce the risk posed by aircrews, the suggestion from at least one epidemiologist, is for the ADF or Police to take over crew transfers.

They did not, the 60 and 70- yr old have never met the driver, the driver is a separate issue altogether. These two could potentially be super spreaders the amount of places they visited in Sydney and Avalon. it will be interesting to find out how they contracted it.

[rattman]

The truth is China NEEDS the ore

They are supplimenting the reduction in iron ore with an large increase in a scrap. They are taking all the addtional scap iron from the ship breakers running at absolute max capacity, theres a pretty large backlog of ships waiting to be scrapped. This is of course only a short term option and only covers a small percentage of the ore shipped from australia. The other rumor on the finance side is saying straight up the chinese economy cant afford to pay for all the incoming resources and is a bit of a house of cards atm.

[Bend alot]

The ABC article raises the very good point of our international aircrews possibly being our weakest link, and should the current accommodation/isolation be looked at.

Personally I think it SHOULD have been beefed up when we had so long without community transmission that our borders could open.

[rattman]

The ABC article raises the very good point of our international aircrews possibly being our weakest link, and should the current accommodation/isolation be looked at.

Personally I think it SHOULD have been beefed up when we had so long without community transmission that our borders could open.

It must be australian international crews because foreign crew are quarantined in hotels till their flight out. Blanco Liro blogged his time in sydney quarantine during his 24 layover in sydney

[Bend alot]

It must be australian international crews because foreign crew are quarantined in hotels till their flight out. Blanco Liro blogged his time in sydney quarantine during his 24 layover in sydney

All other international arrivals have been made to quarantine at Darwin’s Howard Springs facility but an NT Health spokeswoman said under national guidelines flight crew are able to undertake quarantine “under an alternative arrangement”.

Have the national guidelines been revised since the Canadian pilots took a few strolls in Darwin a few months back, while in hotel quarantine?

[rattman]

Have the national guidelines been revised since the Canadian pilots took a few strolls in Darwin a few months back, while in hotel quarantine?

They were different they weren't transiting, they were coming out here for for the fire fighting season and were going to be here for 6 months or what ever. They were also not in hotel quarantine they were in a self isolation in the same way that movie crews, sporting teams and celebrities / rich people can avoid the HQ

Transiting crews are loaded up taken to a hotel and locked in the room then taken back to plane next day and they fly out, in blancos case he is a co pilot on a 777 doing cargo and he is afik held in a HQ same guards same no leaving room rules

[Bend alot]

They were different they weren't transiting, they were coming out here for for the fire fighting season and were going to be here for 6 months or what ever. They were also not in hotel quarantine they were in a self isolation in the same way that movie crews, sporting teams and celebrities / rich people can avoid the HQ

Transiting crews are loaded up taken to a hotel and locked in the room then taken back to plane next day and they fly out, in blancos case he is a co pilot on a 777 doing cargo and he is afik held in a HQ same guards same no leaving room rulesI am a pilot and sometimes return from overseas as a passenger. Am I exempt from hotel quarantine?Under the NSW Public Health Orders, you are not exempt unless you are part of the flight crew on the particular flight and you are required to enter hotel quarantine. This is also applicable to cabin crew or other airline crew who are not part of the flight crew on any given flight arriving in NSW from overseas.

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/quarantine-faqs.aspx

[KRviator]

Annnnndddd..... There it is.

The WA Border is effectively closed to NSW again. Unless you want to spend two weeks in detention - at your own cost mind you. Source. (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/wa-border-to-stay-open-for-now-despite-nsw-virus-spate/news-story/bdef43959e261e5ecc4fdd2ef6d262c1) Guess I'm still not going back to work anytime soon...

[600ft-lb]

Annnnndddd..... There it is.

The WA Border is effectively closed to NSW again. Unless you want to spend two weeks in detention - at your own cost mind you. Source. (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/wa-border-to-stay-open-for-now-despite-nsw-virus-spate/news-story/bdef43959e261e5ecc4fdd2ef6d262c1) Guess I'm still not going back to work anytime soon...

It's actually a bit nuanced this time, just have to take a test on arrival and self isolate until you receive a negative result.

[jrfsp]

Annnnndddd..... There it is.

The WA Border is effectively closed to NSW again. Unless you want to spend two weeks in detention - at your own cost mind you. Source. (https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/wa-border-to-stay-open-for-now-despite-nsw-virus-spate/news-story/bdef43959e261e5ecc4fdd2ef6d262c1) Guess I'm still not going back to work anytime soon...

Talk about exaggerating, its a one day quarantine until covid test results come through.....Also im sure you just forgot to mention TAS imposed restrictions earlier today for NSW.....

[thorn bird]

The airlines really need to push back on this WA idiot. If there's no cost to him he'll keep doing this until the election is over.

The airlines should suspend all services to WA until, at a minimum, 14 days have passed since the past lockout.

The government should suspend all job seeker/job keeper payments to WA, let the bastard rely on his "surplus" gained at the expense of the rest of Australia.

[Bend alot]

The airlines really need to push back on this WA idiot. If there's no cost to him he'll keep doing this until the election is over.

The airlines should suspend all services to WA until, at a minimum, 14 days have passed since the past lockout.

The government should suspend all job seeker/job keeper payments to WA, let the bastard rely on his "surplus" gained at the expense of the rest of Australia.
You are OK with Tassie?

I think he has a valid case - I have travel plans. But if they do not pan out ok.

The breach has been via an aircraft arrival - take some responsibility.

Australia had ZERO community cases for a long time -We imported them via aircraft, then we had community cases.

But the line is still never a case of Covid has been proven on a flight or a crew.

Good I'll take a ship then!

[Ladloy]

Talk about exaggerating, its a one day quarantine until covid test results come through.....Also im sure you just forgot to mention TAS imposed restrictions earlier today for NSW.....

Liberal = good
Labor = bad
That's the general consensus on this forum.

[brokenagain]

The breach has been via an aircraft arrival - take some responsibility.

There is no link between the shuttle bus driver and the cases on the Northern Beaches.

[Bend alot]

There is no link between the shuttle bus driver and the cases on the Northern Beaches.
Not what I said. It is linked to air travel

Not a train on the Northern Beaches..

[DanV2]

WA has now re-imposed the full 'hard border' with NSW with mandatory 14 day quarantine reimposed effective 12:01am Friday 18 December.

Breaking just now across the news and social media platforms.
Initial Source: @nat_forest / @10newsfirstper

[Malakor1]

It's a shame Mcgowan can't place any faith in contact tracing, it has been proven time and again it works. Unfortunately he has created the perfect storm in WA where he cannot allow a single case in as WA is not prepared to manage a potential outbreak. Surely this cannot continue, it's criminal the damage it causes the community.

[dr dre]

Surely this cannot continue, it's criminal the damage it causes the community.

Well let’s see. So far in Sydney we’ve seen no firm action, just a few requests to stay at home, which I’m sure over the weekend before Christmas in the northern beaches will be observed without question..../s

Let’s see what the numbers look like in a few days, the cases seem to be from all over the northern beaches, and one positive case who traveled all over the city including Penrith. The numbers may jump significantly. At that point in the SA outbreak a lockdown was enforced which stopped the spread. Will Gladys have the guts to do one if required during Christmas week? I think that may throw most holiday plans in the bin.

On the other hand in WA it’s fairly certain they’ll be having a normal Christmas. You think West Aussies would rather be in northern Sydney right now?

WA has now re-imposed the full 'hard border' with NSW with mandatory 14 day quarantine reimposed effective 12:01am Friday 18 December.



That’s not a hard border. You can still enter for any reason you just have to self isolate.

Tasmania has prevented entry to anyone who has been in Sydney’s northern beaches, Queensland will impose 14 day isolation to anyone from that region. If the outbreak spreads beyond the Northern beaches I’d say other states will follow suit and extend it to all of Sydney.

As Queensland has also followed suit and instituted restrictions, that should silence the conspiracy theorists here that Palaszczuk was only being tough on borders for election posturing. The truth is this is a serious virus, not just “a cold” as was said a few posts ago, and it needs to be dealt with seriously.

Where did this latest outbreak originate from that has already reached a vulnerable population (aged care)? So much for NSW having the “gold standard” approach according to Morrison.

[Ragnor]

This is one time Gladys need to it hard stop mucking around NSW contact tracing has been proven to work but now with Xmas and summer approaching ppl are moving around a lot more. The 60 and 70 yr old that were first positive need to be charged as they did not stay home whilst awaiting results they went on multiple trips to shops.

[jrfsp]

Seems every state is now shutting out northern beaches LGA, straight after the AHPPC meeting, which seems alarming.

Hopefully this can be contained, NSW have done a fab job with contact tracing but this could go bad very quickly

[Sunfish]

Seems every state is now shutting out northern beaches LGA, straight after the AHPPC meeting, which seems alarming.

Hopefully this can be contained, NSW have done a fab job with contact tracing but this could go bad very quickly

It's already gone bad. From Victorias experience, if you have detected 17 cases, there are probably three times as many, unless all those cases are immobile nursing home residents. That means that the Sydney basin is already riddled with Covid, but you will need a week before you detect them. The folk from the northern beaches are, in general, reasonably affluent, mobile and are not going to alter their holiday plans willingly.

My prescription, which I doubt will be applied, because, well, it's Sydney, is the full Melbourne style lockdown complete with curfew, closures and masks. maybe in a month that would work. The only option for the rest of Australia is to close the state borders again, today.

On that subject, I was regaled yesterday with stories of 180 kmh races up the Newall Highway to get into Queensland before the last lockdown. The mine workers made it back from Victoria by two hours. My advice to interstate visitors in NSW is to get out today.

[Green.Dot]

The timing of this is most unfortunate.

Introducing a lockdown over the Christmas period will be met with limited compliance with the rules set out and probably also limited success.

Hopefully there is better news today with case numbers.

Merry Christmas All!

[Ragnor]

Well its about to be confirmed it originated at Avalon RSL from an overseas traveler (flight crew, hotel worker to be confirmed). The ticking time bomb we all feared as exploded.

[blubak]

Well its about to be confirmed it originated at Avalon RSL from an overseas traveler (flight crew, hotel worker to be confirmed). The ticking time bomb we all feared as exploded.
So,been overseas & because crew no quarantine required?
FFS,why not make it mandatory for at least a test as soon as anyone sets foot in the country & stay home till result received.Why is this so hard for health officers/politicians to work out.

[KRviator]

Talk about exaggerating, its a one day quarantine until covid test results come through.....Also im sure you just forgot to mention TAS imposed restrictions earlier today for NSW.....Care to revisit this?

[Ragnor]

Going by what Gladys has said this morning there will be a significant number today obviously more than the 17 yesterday which will put Sydney back to where it was in November.

Who still thinks international arrivals should be allowed in to capital cities! Not me.

[KRviator]

Gladys needs to do what other states have done. Those states who have banned NSW citizens from entering, like Tasmania, WA or Qld. Close the door to International arrivals.

Let other states carry a a disproportionate share of the load for a change instead of letting NSW manage the lions share of returning travellers. If they don't want NSW citizens in their states, why should NSW let their citizens into NSW-managed quarantine with the attendant risks that entails?

At least Tasmania and Queensland are, for now, being sensible about it and limiting it to the LGA as opposed to the entire state like a certain asreclown in the west...

[Roj approved]

I am struggling to comprehend how overseas flight crew can arrive in Australia, and not be subject to the same Hotel quarantine as domestic flight crew??

My wife has been flying domestically since March, and has been required to stay locked in her room on all overnights until recently.

Yet the authorities allow Aircrew from highly infected countries, the US, to move about in our communities, did they learn nothing from the Ruby Princess?😡😡😡

[rattman]

I am struggling to comprehend how overseas flight crew can arrive in Australia, and not be subject to the same Hotel quarantine as domestic flight crew??

😡😡😡

They are, I know 1 pilot personally who gets held in a quarantine hotel when he flys into a brisbane. Youtuber blancoliro has been put in QH on both of his flights for his airline. Has there been any confirmation if it was a foreign or australian crew ?

[Unstall]

Pretty disappointing that this looks to be a case of Australian air crew returning and not self isolating appropriately as per nsw health guidelines. You would think air crew of all people would know better.

[compressor stall]

I am struggling to comprehend how overseas flight crew can arrive in Australia, and not be subject to the same Hotel quarantine as domestic flight crew??

My wife has been flying domestically since March, and has been required to stay locked in her room on all overnights until recently.

Yet the authorities allow Aircrew from highly infected countries, the US, to move about in our communities, did they learn nothing from the Ruby Princess?😡😡😡

That is simply not the case. International flight crew on turnarounds CANNOT move freely throughout the community. The distinction is that they have (with the general exception of WA where its the Holiday Inn only) been able to quarantine at a hotel as arranged by their airline. This is not necessarily one of the govenemrment hotels, however similar protocols are observed - no leaving the room etc room service only, which is left at the door. Similar restrictions have been applied to Australian aircrews within Australia when the borders were up in various states..

Australian flight crew returning internationally have been able to quarantine at home or a nominated hotel to date. More enlightened employers are putting their crews up in 1 bedroom apartments or similar to help with the period of quarantine. THIS IS UNDER THREAT.

I'd have hoped the industry bodies might have been a bit more vociferous to government regarding the necessity to have Australian Aircrew who have flown internationally (or been to a domestic hotspot) be able to quarantine in agreed nominated hotels, not a shoebox Holiday Inn room with returned travellers. For those who can't see it, this is nothing about privilege rather consider an Aussie pilot operates overseas, spends the entire time in the foreign port on a 10 day tour in hotel rooms then spends another 14 days in the Holiday Inn. Then a couple of days off, then rinse and repeat. That is not sustainable. An apartment with a balcony and fresh air is the only way to keep the health of aircrew going forward.

[KRviator]

That is simply not the case. International flight crew on turnarounds CANNOT move freely throughout the community. Tell that to Gladys.
Ms Berejiklian confirmed one airline worker who was not an Australian citizen has breached their quarantine and gone out to venues."Unfortunately that doesn't seem to have amounted to anything and was not subject to any consideration at this stage but that is an example a few weekends ago where aircrew are supposed to isolate and chose not to.Source (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-18/nsw-coronavirus-ten-new-cases-bringing-total-to-28/12996622)I'm sure they aren't the only one, either. Just one of the ones they know about....

[rattman]

Tell that to Gladys.
I'm sure they aren't the only one, either. Just one of the ones they know about....

Zero indication it was an international aircrew and not a domestic airline who are not required to quarantine. International aircrew are required to quarantine or have a covid plan. afik none have a covid plan. Australian airline crew flying international can isolate at home or commercial accomodation

[KRviator]

Zero indication it was an international aircrew and not a domestic airline who are not required to quarantine. International aircrew are required to quarantine or have a covid plan. afik none have a covid plan. Australian airline crew flying international can isolate at home or commercial accomodationNever suggested it was either of those. Merely pointing out, as you've correctly said, International crew laying over in Sydney are to quarantine, yet you have at least one peanut, and likely more who didn't get caught, who have gone out on the town against their quarantine directions.

[Global Aviator]

Never suggested it was either of those. Merely pointing out, as you've correctly said, International crew laying over in Sydney are to quarantine, yet you have at least one peanut, and likely more who didn't get caught, who have gone out on the town against their quarantine directions.

I just don’t get this. Issue a room key that is one time only. Leave the room and your in trouble. Excessive? Necessary? The few who do not follow the rules fook the chook for all. Google FedEx pilot Singapore to see how seriously some countries take it.

[Roj approved]

Thanks KR And Stallie,

I was obviously misunderstanding what I heard on the news.

The fact that they breached the Q rules should be grounds for a passport stamped with "never to return to Aus", that's what would happen if you committed a crime in the US.

[rattman]

Guessing this is the event in questionPenalty Infringement Notices (PINs) were issued to 13 airline crew after they allegedly failed to comply with self-isolation ministerial directions.

Police received information a crew member who had arrived in Sydney on a flight from South America on Saturday 5 December 2020 had left his accommodation at Mascot in breach of the Public Health (COVID-19 Air Transportation Quarantine) Order 2020.

https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news/news?sq_content_src=%2BdXJsPWh0dHBzJTNBJTJGJTJGZWJpenByZC5wb 2xpY2UubnN3Lmdvdi5hdSUyRm1lZGlhJTJGOTI2OTUuaHRtbCZhbGw9MQ%3D %3D

[dr dre]

Seems unusual that an international flight crew skipped hotel quarantine in an inner city hotel to go all
the way to Avalon Beach for drinks at the RSL? Seems more likely to be Australian based crew if that was the case, although nothing confirmed yet.

And yet again, another case of quarantine outbreak in major city as a result of an international source. What’s the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

The Federal government needs to immediately implement a network of remote arrival quarantine locations. Unless they want this to keep happening for the whole of next year, as they have said that Australia is not going to be getting the vaccine for a while.

[jrfsp]

Seems unusual that an international flight crew skipped hotel quarantine in an inner city hotel to go all
the way to Avalon Beach for drinks at the RSL? Seems more likely to be Australian based crew if that was the case, although nothing confirmed yet.

And yet again, another case of quarantine outbreak in major city as a result of an international source. What’s the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

The Federal government needs to immediately implement a network of remote arrival quarantine locations. Unless they want this to keep happening for the whole of next year, as they have said that Australia is not going to be getting the vaccine for a while.

Well we still dont know the original source.....i would bet money on a wealthy individual who has exemption from hotel quarantine rather than airline crew

[compressor stall]

Thanks KR And Stallie,

I was obviously misunderstanding what I heard on the news.

The fact that they breached the Q rules should be grounds for a passport stamped with "never to return to Aus", that's what would happen if you committed a crime in the US.

There is a lot of misinformation about in the media and by people being interviewed who should know better, in particular mixing up the isolation requirements for international vs AU based aircrew. There is a line of conversation that international aircrew on turnarounds in AU are not subject to quarantine - this is false.

Relieved to hear that - for VIC anyway - AU based aircrew flying internationally can continue to isolate either at home or nominated hotel. This will be enforced by police direction. Happy to hear this sensible outcome.

[compressor stall]

Well we still dont know the original source.....i would bet money on a wealthy individual who has exemption from hotel quarantine rather than airline crew
Or someone who works in the existing quarantine system has caught it and been asymptomatic and spread it from there. Remember security guards in NSW have got it before.

Friends in the UK - entire family got it. Not one symptom amongst any of them. One lied about symptoms just to get tested as she works at a school and wanted to get one out of an abundance of caution. Positive. As were the rest of the family on subsequent testing.

[blubak]

Well we still dont know the original source.....i would bet money on a wealthy individual who has exemption from hotel quarantine rather than airline crew
Heard a bit earlier it was brought in by a US citizen so fair chance US flight crew,just what i heard being said.

[dr dre]

Just been announced a Covid positive case attended the Cronulla RSL. Along with the Penrith and Avalon cases, there are now positive cases who have attended venues in the far north, south and west of the city, and presumably all spots in between, so this outbreak will surely spread all over the city very quickly.

Looks like the hot spot designation and restrictions won’t be limited to the northern beaches for long.

[Bodie1]

I just don’t get this. Issue a room key that is one time only.

Or don't issue a key at all (that was my hotel iso experience).

Leave the room - door shuts behind you - ringing reception to ask for access to room - filth know you have left the room.

OR

Leave the room - stick something in the doorway to stop the door closing - hall guards see the door chocked - filth know you have left the room.

Leaving the room has been detected easily.

[Australopithecus]

Filth? ?

[Bodie1]

Filth? ?

Bacon, Bill, Cop, Dicks, Five-O, Flatfoot, Filth, Jack, Nick, Walloper.

[ruprecht]

Yeah, I can’t see O/S aircrew visiting the local RSL.

[aviation_enthus]

For all the arguing on this thread about where it might have come from, at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter!!!

Australia is one of the few countries without COVID. That means there will be a continuing threat of outbreaks until well into next year. It’s how they’re managed that is the key. NSW has done a pretty good job so far of closing down outbreaks.

All arriving international flight crew are subject to quarantine for the duration of their stay (or 14 days). I have personally been subject to this multiple times now.

HOWEVER!! 😂

This is carried out at our normal hotels. Now things are more normal in Aus, these hotels also contain normal hotel guests. There is minimal police checking, although it’s made very clear we are to stay in our rooms. The fines are around $10,000 for breach of quarantine.

Compare this to:

Singapore
- all airline crew are isolated at the airport hotel. Seperate checkin areas isolated from everyone else. Seperate smoking/outdoor lounge that is managed by a full time staff member (must call before leaving room). Again significant fines AND jail time, plus threats against the company for non compliance.

NZ
- airline crew are placed in the same quarantine hotels that the passengers use.
However we are on a seperate floor and use the “rear entrance” to remain clear of any infected travellers. These hotels also come with fencing and guards, so no opportunity to leave.

Malaysia
- airline crew are made to download an app before arrival. This is used to “checkin” (QR codes) at any business/building within the country. BUT we are NOT allowed to leave the hotel premises, so this would be picked up by the extensive use of QR codes throughout the country.

Hong Kong
- as far as I know they still require all flight crew to undergo a COVID test on arrival. I’m pretty sure they’re also unable to leave until the results come through. For this reason we don’t currently do layovers in HK

So as you can see, there is a wide range of ideas for how to ensure compliance. I’d argue Singapore and NZ are the “gold standard” so far.

Australia has been lucky so far. It’s not because of outstanding government (despite ScoMo’s bragging), being an island far from other countries was always going to give us an advantage. The current passenger quarantine system is draconian and heavily restrictive. The current way aircrew are quarantined also presents a threat because of a relative lack of control.

Why is it after 9 MONTHS the best we can do is 7000 arrivals a week?

Why is home quarantine with a $20 tracking bracelet not an option?

Australians are kidding themselves if they think our various governments have this under control. Shutting the border was an easy political decision to make. But the continuing minor outbreaks show the ongoing threat that NEEDS TO BE MANAGED. This is where true ability and competence is shown, something clearly lacking in Australia this year.

[jrfsp]

It seems WA has enforced policed quarantine at two hotels for airline crew, but again, why cant we have the same standards and policies across all states. How many times do we need to find the same loop holes that authorities seem to think only exist in certain states - Federal gov needs to mandate these requirements.

[Sunfish]

Home quarantine is not an option because the *&^%ers will invite their friends to visit.

Hotel quarantine is debatable UNLESS arrangements are made to test and quarantine staff who are potentially exposed.

Returning people AND airline crew need to be tested BEFORE they get on the aircraft and rejected if they are positive.

FFS shut all borders with NSW and lock down Sydney!

[dr dre]

FFS shut all borders with NSW and lock down Sydney!

At the point in the Adelaide outbreak where it was at 17 cases restrictions on public and private gatherings, mask mandates and business closures were announced. Within 48hrs it was a full lockdown of the city.

Will NSW do the same even though there’s evidence this outbreak has spread throughout Sydney? I think not.

So don’t blame the other states if they enforce border restrictions with NSW especially since the current one in in charge doesn’t seem too fussed about it all.

[jrfsp]

The latest list of exposure sites is alarming....all over the city

[Bodie1]

At the point in the Adelaide outbreak where it was at 17 cases restrictions on public and private gatherings, mask mandates and business closures were announced. Within 48hrs it was a full lockdown of the city.

It was also announced that it was a virulent new strain that was super highly infectious and would destroy the world in number of hours, until epidemiologists elsewhere suggested that they calm the **** down. The clowns responsible for this hyperbole then attempted to divert the attention from their idiocy onto the foreign student. The lockdowns reversed fairly soon thereafter.

Thankfully NSW doesn't behave like rest of the country.

doesn’t seem too fussed about it all.

Maybe it's the case that she's not a moron using any crisis that presents itself to make her look like a hero. Any moron can lock a state down, that's proven. It takes courage to act reasonably.

[dr dre]

The latest list of exposure sites is alarming....all over the city

Woolloomooloo, Terrey Hills, Lane Cove, Cronulla, Bondi, Rosebery, Eveleigh, Forestville, Penrith. NSW Health has issued a warning now for the whole state.

Looks like McGowan was right in treating all of NSW as a threat, looks like Andrews was right in mandating permits for all of NSW, I’d expect other states to follow suit very soon.

Looks like Gladys is going to have to do something quickly, will she have the guts too?

[aviation_enthus]

Home quarantine is not an option because the *&^%ers will invite their friends to visit.

Hotel quarantine is debatable UNLESS arrangements are made to test and quarantine staff who are potentially exposed.

Returning people AND airline crew need to be tested BEFORE they get on the aircraft and rejected if they are positive.

FFS shut all borders with NSW and lock down Sydney!

Other countries seem to manage home quarantine with modern tracking methods (bracelets or phone apps) and ACTUAL follow up by police etc daily. Don’t see any jurisdiction in Aus capable of that. It’s easy to blame the user.... Harder to create a solution.

Hotel and transport staff should be tested regularly. Again an example of how Aus has got lucky, not from good governance.

Testing before departure has been proven to be of limited utility. Even 2 tests over 14 days of quarantine still gives a 5% chance of missing a positive case.

As for locking down Sydney and NSW.... 🤦‍♂️

[KRviator]

At the point in the Adelaide outbreak where it was at 17 cases restrictions on public and private gatherings, mask mandates and business closures were announced. Within 48hrs it was a full lockdown of the city.And, what's the population of Adelaide? 1.5 million? So around 1 case per 100,000 residents, give or take. Apply that rationale to Sydney and you'll need 70 cases to call it an equivalent outbreak. That being said, we might get there, and I say that as a NSW resident.

So don’t blame the other states if they enforce border restrictions with NSW especially since the current one in in charge doesn’t seem too fussed about it all.I bloody well will blame other states if they aren't willing to carry their fair share of the incoming passenger load. When was the last time Tasmania took a planeload of international arrivals. Every other state - and their citizens - has been more than happy to let NSW carry the can, in come cases, with 60+% of the incoming arrivals, yet with NSW only having around 30% of the Australian population! But they're also very quick & happy to decry "those filthy sickly NSWelshmen!" the instant something like this happens and shut the borders.

Yep, great times to be an Australian looking after your mates...:ugh:

[jrfsp]

Looks like McGowan was right in treating all of NSW as a threat, looks like Andrews was right in mandating permits for all of NSW, I’d expect other states to follow suit very soon.



I fully agree, but we have seen other people on this forum would rather it spreads all over the country. The thing that has kept the economy going this year is enabling single states to contain and shut down while being propped up by other covid free states. Our resource sector (probably our largest GDP contributor currently) output has not been impacted by Covid to date, we need to keep it that way.

[dr dre]

Yep, great times to be an Australian looking after your mates...:ugh:

How about the Australian government step up and take care of Australia by doing what their supposed to in regards to international borders, immigration and quarantine and mandate remote quarantining. Direct international arrivals to land at places like Alice Springs or military bases and put them into federally funded facilities. Stop palming it off to states stop using the cheapest option of inner city hotels and step up and lead, because it’s obvious all states will continue this cycle of shut down and open up every few weeks/months until the vaccine uptake is widespread. If Australia is to be one country again it’s time for the Australian government to lead.

[compressor stall]

Hotel and transport staff should be tested regularly.

Back mid year, talking to the Emirates chauffeur in Melbourne taking me from home to tulla. He had been getting a COVID test every Monday out of an abundance of caution. Then the government said you had to isolate until the results came back. He couldn't not work for 2-3 days a week so stopped getting asymptomatically tested on a weekly basis.

[goodonyamate]

How about the Australian government step up and take care of Australia by doing what their supposed to in regards to international borders, immigration and quarantine and mandate remote quarantining. Direct international arrivals to land at places like Alice Springs or military bases and put them into federally funded facilities. Stop palming it off to states stop using the cheapest option of inner city hotels and step up and lead, because it’s obvious all states will continue this cycle of shut down and open up every few weeks/months until the vaccine uptake is widespread. If Australia is to be one country again it’s time for the Australian government to lead.

im sure the Australian government would love to. But then you’d have idiots like McGowan refusing to have returned travellers, or limiting the number of returned travellers etc. keeps the feds powerless. Such a **** system we have. What a joke.

[Square Bear]

Why is there so much suggestion within the community that Military bases should be used for Covid quarantine. Makes as much sense as putting them in the various State Police Academies, or any other emergency services training facilities.

Such a harebrained idea which would only result in the compromise of our Military Health and Emergency Services which are designed for the defence of the Country and Communities.

Suggestions such as that seem to be just populist and can’t see any justifiable reason to do.

Have a research of the effect of Covid on the various military service around the world.

However using place such as Christmas Island, theDesert etc, with appropriate trained Civi’s seems a good idea.

[dr dre]

im sure the Australian government would love to. But then you’d have idiots like McGowan refusing to have returned travellers, or limiting the number of returned travellers etc. keeps the feds powerless. Such a **** system we have. What a joke.

Why do you say that? If you look at the number of returned travellers each state accepts per population it’s actually WA that accepts the most returnees at 1 traveller for every 2630 people, NSW next with 1 for every 2730 people, SA close behind at 1 per 3000. Qld and Victoria lag behind at 1 per 5200 and 6000.

Check the numbers yourselves here (https://usa.embassy.gov.au/news/covid19-stay-informed#Returning%20to%20Australia)

Why is there so much suggestion within the community that Military bases should be used for Covid quarantine. Makes as much sense as putting them in the various State Police Academies, or any other emergency services training facilities.

One of the bare bases like Curtin, Learmonth or Scherger. At the moment our economy and health systems are at risk of being overwhelmed, and that is far more likely than an armed invasion happening overnight. Long runways and capability to set up temporary accomodation well away from population centres.

[Daylight Robbery]

And how would you get the health care/ cleaning/ admin/ security teams up there to man these bases in the middle of nowhere?
Practicalities make it tricky. It's not like these options aren't being looked at

[wheels_down]

NSW is about to be cut off from the rest of the world it seems. Well two Labor leaders to the north and south are expected to put the walls up.

Did not fill me with much confidence in that press conference today. Hard to judge who is making the calls and the arrogance is mind blowing.

They seem to be taking a different approach compared to fellow Liberal leader over in SA. What exactly are they waiting for? Mandatory masks on Public Transport should be a given.

[blubak]

And, what's the population of Adelaide? 1.5 million? So around 1 case per 100,000 residents, give or take. Apply that rationale to Sydney and you'll need 70 cases to call it an equivalent outbreak. That being said, we might get there, and I say that as a NSW resident.

I bloody well will blame other states if they aren't willing to carry their fair share of the incoming passenger load. When was the last time Tasmania took a planeload of international arrivals. Every other state - and their citizens - has been more than happy to let NSW carry the can, in come cases, with 60+% of the incoming arrivals, yet with NSW only having around 30% of the Australian population! But they're also very quick & happy to decry "those filthy sickly NSWelshmen!" the instant something like this happens and shut the borders.

Yep, great times to be an Australian looking after your mates...:ugh:
I thoroughly get what u say about people in other states referring to NSW residents as being filthy etc.
We went through it here in Vic for many many weeks & even had people in regional areas doing it to melbourne residents.
I think now because of what we went through we support our border being closed but not for a get back at other states but just to make sure we dont get locked up again.
No govt is perfect however i think we must agree in reality they are all dealing with something never seen before.
We hated & still do having to wear masks but is it that much of a sacrifice if it helps stop the spread?
I dont care if the premier is lib or lab,lets all do something to keep australia virus free.

[Ragnor]

The dissapointing thing out of this, Australia and WA will close to NSW today I believe, however not one of the other states and WA will offer to take any load of international arrivals. Gladys needs to stop these now and take some pressure off Sydney for a few months or only allow NSW residents to enter via Sydney international.

Time for NSW to get tough for once.

[Bodie1]

I'd prefer that Gladys stays the course. When you start behaving like the QLD & WA arseclowns you're no better than them right? I've had to do quite a bit of interstate travel over the past 8 months and the voice of reason has always been NSW. Hopefully business rewards NSW being the most stable state. I don't think it's a coincidence that people from other countries are making their way to NSW for some respite.

[blubak]

I'd prefer that Gladys stays the course. When you start behaving like the QLD & WA arseclowns you're no better than them right? I've had to do quite a bit of interstate travel over the past 8 months and the voice of reason has always been NSW. Hopefully business rewards NSW being the most stable state. I don't think it's a coincidence that people from other countries are making their way to NSW for some respite.
I have always thought she was very sensible in her response & definitely does not play politics unlike her northern female counterpart.
I do think she needs to make masks compulsory though particularly in all indoor public places,have a look at syd airport yesterday & considering xmas shopping going troppo this weekend,everybody needs to wear 1.

[Bodie1]

Can't see any problems with a mask. Small price to pay.

[Ragnor]

This outbreak is different to other we have had and were able to manage easily. Now its xmas ppl will not listen they will get in their cars and bolt, go to the beach because its 35+ everyone gets the picture. Our course needs altering weather en route international needs to stop for the minute to ease the pressure so resources can be diverted and used defending our own city. We have the best contact tracing in the world they even have limits and can only manage maximum 50 cases a day.

The real concern is not northern beaches that can be easily contained its the drummer that played in the northern beaches and everywhere in between.

[blubak]

This outbreak is different to other we have had and were able to manage easily. Now its xmas ppl will not listen they will get in their cars and bolt, go to the beach because its 35+ everyone gets the picture. Our course needs altering weather en route international needs to stop for the minute to ease the pressure so resources can be diverted and used defending our own city. We have the best contact tracing in the world they even have limits and can only manage maximum 50 cases a day.

The real concern is not northern beaches that can be easily contained its the drummer that played in the northern beaches and everywhere in between.
Another concern should be crowded public places,just saw some pics of sydney fish markets yesterday,not only lots of buyers with no masks but the traders werent wearing any.
If this outbreak isnt taken seriously the risk(like u point out) could be widespread yet it still looks like lots of people just dont get it.

[Check_Thrust]

I bloody well will blame other states if they aren't willing to carry their fair share of the incoming passenger load. When was the last time Tasmania took a planeload of international arrivals.

6th of December to answer your question, with another one scheduled for the 8th of January.

Also the Tasmanian government is supplementing hotel workers wages so to avoid the situation of quarantine hotel staff working multiple jobs thus hopefully reducing the possibility of virus spread if a worker becomes infected, how many other governments are doing this?

I'll admit that the frequency of flights is obviously not high but keep in mind that Hobart "International" Airport doesn't have actually have immigration facilities etc and the state has a population of 550,000 (a bit over 10% of Sydney).

I do understand your frustration of other states not sharing the load but don't go thinking that ALL states and their constituents don't care.

[Green.Dot]

I’m baffled and frustrated that masks haven’t been mandated- at least in the short term.

The take up of masks would be high by the public in my opinion.

But when it’s optional all the fence sitters will think that the situation “can’t be too bad”, and carry on in their normal non-socially distanced ways.

I fear Gladys has missed a golden opportunity here. Could hurt her and the state badly, COVID doesn’t give you a second chance if you get it wrong.

[blubak]

I’m baffled that masks haven’t been mandated- at least in the short term.

The take up of masks would be high by the public in my opinion.

But when it’s optional all the fence sitters will think that the situation “can’t be too bad”, and carry on in their normal non-socially distanced ways.

I fear Gladys has missed a golden opportunity here. Could hurt her and the state badly.
Absolutely,of course we dont like them but for f sake if u are in a public place with lots of others around just put 1 on & protect yourself.
Its not the time now to be selfish.

[dr dre]

Western society is too lax and focused on individual rights “It’s my RIGHT to not wear a mask”. Asian society is focused on collective rights, protection of society is more important, don’t wear a mask and you’ll be punished. That’s why Asian nations have had such a low death rate compared to Western countries IMO.

Unless masks are made mandatory and punishments handed out for non compliance not enough people in this country will wear them. Same goes for large and non essential gatherings. Time for some decisive leadership.

[WingNut60]

Why do you say that? If you look at the number of returned travellers each state accepts per population it’s actually WA that accepts the most returnees at 1 traveller for every 2630 people, NSW next with 1 for every 2730 people, SA close behind at 1 per 3000. Qld and Victoria lag behind at 1 per 5200 and 6000.
Check the numbers yourselves here (https://usa.embassy.gov.au/news/covid19-stay-informed#Returning%20to%20Australia)


But those who use that argument are not at all interested to to know that WA is doing their part. It doesn't fit the narrative.

What intrigues me, is where all of these returnees are coming from.
Government sources have been touting the backlog of 35000 people waiting to return for weeks (months) now.
Surely 5000 / week has reduced that backlog to near zero by now.

[Ragnor]

Allegedly 5000 or less registered in UK to return and over 15000 in India.

[WingNut60]

I can find a first reference to "the 35000 Australians" dating back to early in September.
And the most recent, still touting 35000, dated 10 December.

I do understand that there would be a steady trickle (stream?) of new registrations but I'd have thought that it might have reduced a significantly by now.

Does anyone know the number of actual returnees as compared to the either the federal or state imposed caps.
And yes, there are both.

[Ragnor]

What is the unpalatable numbers for Vic, QLD and other states to close off to NSW today? 5, 10,20 announced

[wheels_down]

What is the unpalatable numbers for Vic, QLD and other states to close off to NSW today? 5, 10,20 announced
Now that the elections have passed its hard to judge.

The comment around similar numbers forecasted for the current 24hrs might spook them, as well as the threat of metro restrictions to be announced tomorrow.

47 flights a day down to Melbourne, hard to sort of keep this going with still much unknown around seeding.

[Ragnor]

After the recent announcement hopefully there are no knee jerk reactions. Appears to be contained in northern beaches which they have just went to a hard lockdown from 5pm today.

[Iron Bar]

What a joke, hardly a lock down.

“The reasons permitted for leaving home are work, for compassionate grounds, for exercise and for shopping”

ABC news

Very vague, who’s enforcing it? The template for this stuff should have been written months ago. How about some proper restrictions and mandatory mask wearing? Politically difficult and unpopular.

Premier thanks the Aust Hotel’ Assoc for voluntarily closing pubs in the Northern beaches, piss off, who’s in charge? Give them a bloody direction.

The whole country is very lucky we are a big sparsely populated island and have a hot summer instead of freezing Northern hemisphere winter.

Very few effective leaders and too many incompetent public servants, still.

[Potsie Weber]

What a joke, hardly a lock down.

“The reasons permitted for leaving home are work, for compassionate grounds, for exercise and for shopping”

ABC news

Very vague, who’s enforcing it? The template for this stuff should have been written months ago. How about some proper restrictions and mandatory mask wearing? Politically difficult and unpopular.

Premier thanks the Aust Hotel’ Assoc for voluntarily closing pubs in the Northern beaches, piss off, who’s in charge? Give them a bloody direction.

The whole country is very lucky we are a big sparsely populated island and have a hot summer instead of freezing Northern hemisphere winter.

Very few effective leaders and too many incompetent public servants, still.


And essential work exempt from lock down. So all those cabin crew from the northern beaches are expected to continue working, flying all around the country.

[dr dre]

“The reasons permitted for leaving home are work, for compassionate grounds, for exercise and for shopping”

ABC news

Very vague, who’s enforcing it?

The shopping is only for grocery and essential item shopping. I guess that precludes Christmas gifts. The lockdown is until Christmas Eve, so expect a mad rush and packed shopping centres on the 24th. Sounds like a breeding ground for spread if the virus is not contained.

[rattman]

What is the unpalatable numbers for Vic, QLD and other states to close off to NSW today? 5, 10,20 announced

Probably not numbers but a combination growth and coverage/location

[currawong]

The basic principle of "quarantine" has been long understood.

Should not be a problem to grasp the concept.

The approach to the WA border, like it or not, is in the national interest.

Elsewhere, iron ore and gold production has been cut off at the knees, due to workforce disruption.

"The suggestion that commodity exports will again exceed $250 billion in the year ahead highlights the economic opportunity presented by the absence of the coronavirus in Western Australia, (https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/wa-to-shut-borders-to-fifo-workers-20200330-p54f7b) which is responsible for the vast majority of Australia's gold and iron ore production."

https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/brazil-s-virus-pain-to-extend-australia-s-iron-ore-gain-20200925-p55z9v

Evidence would suggest Australia has handled this rather well, on both infection and economic fronts.

That we should be called upon again to do what actually works, should not come as any surprise.

[601]

Time for some decisive leadership.

You can pile on as much leadership in the form of directions until the cows come home
The directions are not going to stop this. It is only each and everyone of us making a conscious decision to do what is asked that will stop the spread.

But as we can see, it only takes one person to not comply and it is all over.

How about the Australian government step up and take care of Australia by doing what their supposed to in regards to international borders, immigration and quarantine and mandate remote quarantining. Direct international arrivals to land at places like Alice Springs or military bases and put them into federally funded facilities. Stop palming it off to states stop using the cheapest option of inner city hotels and step up and lead, because it’s obvious all states will continue this cycle of shut down and open up every few weeks/months until the vaccine uptake is widespread. If Australia is to be one country again it’s time for the Australian government to lead.

Better check up on who is in charge inside each state borders. Clue, it is not ScoMo

[Green.Dot]

Just read COVID traces detected in sewage samples on Gold Coast, Townsville and Cairns.

[DirectAnywhere]

Yup. It's looking messy.

[Bodie1]

But as we can see, it only takes one person to not comply and it is all over.

All over? God spare me. I'm not a rona virus denier or a conspiracy theorist but spare us the dramatics. It's a major health issue and needs to be dealt with as such but for chrissakes do we need the drama, disaster and doomsday crap?

Better check up on who is in charge inside each state borders. Clue, it is not ScoMo

Scomo has made it quite clear that he doesn't make the border decisions and has no say.

[wheels_down]

Nine reporting Vic government meetings underway this evening with a plan to include Metro Sydney in that hotspot zone. Details tomorrow morning.

Tasmania has now pulled the plug. 14 Day Q.

[dr dre]

Nine reporting Vic government meetings underway this evening with a plan to include Metro Sydney in that hotspot zone. Details tomorrow morning.

It’s likely the virus was transmitted outside the Northern beaches, we already know that positive cases travelled as far as Cronulla and Penrith. I’m pretty surprised mandatory masks at least aren’t being implemented for the city.

[wheels_down]

It’s likely the virus was transmitted outside the Northern beaches, we already know that positive cases travelled as far as Cronulla and Penrith. I’m pretty surprised mandatory masks at least aren’t being implemented for the city.
As an absolute bare minimum, trains, planes and buses, and airports! If they are serious add Supermakets and Malls.

Perhaps the airlines should take some initiative and put in mandatory masks or no boarding. They already have free masks for each passenger anyway. Few airlines in the USA have done this

[PoppaJo]

Vic health officials seem a little edgy this evening it appears.
https://youtu.be/uMgUdKrmYus

[Australopithecus]

Border Pass required for Queensland from 0100 20/12 (tel:0100 20/12). I imagine that the trigger for a hard border again is not too far away, Christmas notwithstanding. Still ten weeks out from a vaccine? I am the pessimist’s pessimist, able to see only the dark cloud surrounding every silver lining. Guess what I see now.

[ruprecht]

Guess what I see now.

Dead people...?

[Ragnor]

Everyone needs to calm down stop the doomsday rubbish. NSW are the best in the world at handling this and yes it’s a big bump on the road but it will be controlled. Ppl have been saying here that Gladys needs to make mask mandatory and yet there has not been a break out from not making them mandatory.

[Xeptu]

Save Ferris

[wheels_down]

Mark McGowan overreaction panic conference coming up in about 10 minutes. 🔒

[thorn bird]

Isn't it time to tell McGowan to piss off and form his own Country, provided of course they take the word Australia out of their name, because Australian they aint.

McGowanstan has a nice ring to it, or perhaps the Southern Socialist republic of McGowanstan.

All I heard out of his mouth was F@#$K the rest of you, We alright Jack the rest of you can F#$@K off. Lets see how well he does without the rest of us propping him up.

[Green.Dot]

Ppl have been saying here that Gladys needs to make mask mandatory and yet there has not been a break out from not making them mandatory.

I have full faith in NSW doing a good job- we are on the same page here.

Regarding mandating mask use, I’ve only got quals as a pilot so this is the best risk analogy I’ve got:

If you have windshear on the ATIS for takeoff do you?

A: Use normal takeoff figures because it doesn’t look too bad outside (people who won’t wear a mask because they don’t like the feel of them).

Or

B: Use full thrust with windshear figures and give yourself the best chance possible (Mandate mask use until they are certain it’s under control, knowing more people will wear them if they have to).

[SRFred]

Since it appears there are quite a few people from the affected LGA in Skidnee that are now in Queensland and also CV traces have been found in the sewerage right up to Cairns it would be amazing if it wasn't already in Victoria but then reduced testing numbers might not show the true situation.

[jrfsp]

Isn't it time to tell McGowan to piss off and form his own Country, provided of course they take the word Australia out of their name, because Australian they aint.

McGowanstan has a nice ring to it, or perhaps the Southern Socialist republic of McGowanstan.

All I heard out of his mouth was F@#$K the rest of you, We alright Jack the rest of you can F#$@K off. Lets see how well he does without the rest of us propping him up.

Doesnt sound like you're familiar with the economics of this country......

[SOPS]

Isn't it time to tell McGowan to piss off and form his own Country, provided of course they take the word Australia out of their name, because Australian they aint.

McGowanstan has a nice ring to it, or perhaps the Southern Socialist republic of McGowanstan.

All I heard out of his mouth was F@#$K the rest of you, We alright Jack the rest of you can F#$@K off. Lets see how well he does without the rest of us propping him up.

Actually .. most people in the West are very happy.

[dr dre]

Doesnt sound like you're familiar with the economics of this country......

Nor is he familiar with definitions of words.

For future reference, for everyone here and elsewhere, this is the dictionary definition of the word Socialism:

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

As no Australian State Government, including WA, wholly owns the means of production, distribution and exchange (the % of private sector employees is around 13%) then no Australian state, including WA, is even remotely socialist.

[wheels_down]

Boat Race now gone, Victoria will brief media in the morning. Looks like it’s over for the next few weeks.

Big blow to the QF group here who have considerable capacity at the moment. This is going to hurt.

[Turnleft080]

Speaking of sport may well be all the Aust and India cricketers go straight to Melbourne and Melbourne could hold 2 test matches back to back.

[WingNut60]

Isn't it time to tell McGowan to piss off and form his own Country, provided of course they take the word Australia out of their name, because Australian they aint.

McGowanstan has a nice ring to it, or perhaps the Southern Socialist republic of McGowanstan.

All I heard out of his mouth was F@#$K the rest of you, We alright Jack the rest of you can F#$@K off. Lets see how well he does without the rest of us propping him up.
Be careful what you wish for, boyo.

[WingNut60]

Speaking of sport may well be all the Aust and India cricketers go straight to Melbourne and Melbourne could hold 2 test matches back to back.
Am I the only one who thinks that all out for 36 has a fishy smell about it?

[Climb150]

Am I right in thinking they don't know where the Northern Beaches outbreak originated? The media is usually very quick to blame people returning from overseas or cleaners working at quarantine hotels. The infected hotel shuttle driver doesn't seem to have any connection so where did it come from?

[Australopithecus]

I have full faith in NSW doing a good job- we are on the same page here.

Regarding mandating mask use, I’ve only got quals as a pilot so this is the best risk analogy I’ve got:

If you have windshear on the ATIS for takeoff do you?

A: Use normal takeoff figures because it doesn’t look too bad outside (people who won’t wear a mask because they don’t like the feel of them).

Or

B: Use full thrust with windshear figures and give yourself the best chance possible (Mandate mask use until they are certain it’s under control, knowing more people will wear them if they have to).


Or opt for:

C. Delaying takeoff until the hazard has passed. The corollary here is of course mandating a hard lock-down until either the threat has passed or is judged to be controlled with low risk. Dice-rolling is only entertaining as a spectator sport, not really when you have actual skin in the game and the rewards don’t outweigh the risks.


This event, while awkwardly timed, was almost always going to happen. A response any less than we had a few weeks ago would be both a slap in the face of the other states and a week-kneed, mamby-pamby undoing of the hard yards we have all slogged through until now. Cannot conjure any more cliches right now, but you get the gist...

[Angle of Attack]

Climb 150,
They don’t know but seeing as it’s a US strain you can bet it’s yet another Hotel Quarantine escape. While we import cases into substandard hotel quarantine systems this will repeat again and again. Unless there is a change of policy to get these people into remote quarantine centres 2021 will be a complete repeat of 2021, even with a vaccine in March. Without a doubt lockdowns will start and domestic flying will be back to skeleton within a month. Once the federal government realises they actually need to do something about the international arrivals quarantine system, maybe we will get somewhere, but regardless of your political tendencies, almost everyone would agree Scomo is basically out of his depth and completely incompetent. I’m starting to think this COVID will mirror the Spanish Flu and basically paralyse the world for a good 3-5 years. Perfect for China...🤭

[vne165]

Am I the only one who thinks that all out for 36 has a fishy smell about it?
There's only two things that smell like fish......

[goodonyamate]

While they don’t know how the initial two contracted it, hasn’t it spread because of the two entitled boomers who didn’t isolate after their test? Rather they went on a tour of Sydney.

[Ragnor]

Yes they did. P!$$es me off that these ppl are getting off scott free all the time. These two are going to set us back months potentially

[blubak]

Everyone needs to calm down stop the doomsday rubbish. NSW are the best in the world at handling this and yes it’s a big bump on the road but it will be controlled. Ppl have been saying here that Gladys needs to make mask mandatory and yet there has not been a break out from not making them mandatory.
Isnt it different now though with people having it?
The premier has said it would be crazy not wearing 1 on public transport or indoor areas with others around.
U quote nsw as being the best in the world in handling this & i agree however with shopping centres etc jam packed with people,some of whom may have been to the nthn beaches area very recently,wouldnt it be erring on the side of caution to enforce masks as an extra layer of protection?
If this spreads,lots of people will be forced to do a lot more than wear a mask,no need to remind everyone of restrictions currently throughout europe & not very long ago,here in melbourne.
I wouldnt wish that on anyone,just my opinion,it may well be rubbish as u say.

[Ragnor]

I am not against it, after this Northern beaches outbreak I wish they would make them mandatory for the next few weeks to slow the spread. I also wish they would stop the international arrivals but neither will happen.

[WhisprSYD]

Am I right in thinking they don't know where the Northern Beaches outbreak originated? The media is usually very quick to blame people returning from overseas or cleaners working at quarantine hotels. The infected hotel shuttle driver doesn't seem to have any connection so where did it come from?

It’s stayed awfully quiet which makes me think there’s something to it.

Suspicion by some I know on the NB that it may have been a celebrity/a-lister/elite etc who got to skip regular HQ in favour of a private residence in Palm beach.. but I think that’s just guess work.

[maggot]

While they don’t know how the initial two contracted it, hasn’t it spread because of the two entitled boomers who didn’t isolate after their test? Rather they went on a tour of Sydney.
sorry but is this confirmed? Link?
ffs

[dr dre]

Climb 150,
Once the federal government realises they actually need to do something about the international arrivals quarantine system, maybe we will get somewhere, but regardless of your political tendencies, almost everyone would agree Scomo is basically out of his depth and completely incompetent.

If people want Australia to be a whole country again it’s time for the leader of the country of Australia to do something. The federal government can show initiative and institute remote quarantining, as every outbreak cluster has come from an inner city hotel (likely from this Sydney outbreak too). I warned this would repeat itself after the Adelaide outbreak, but no initiative seems to be taken.

Morrison is a useless leader, we saw this during the bushfires. Ignoring warning from fire chiefs, pissing off to Hawaii, insulting firefighters and claiming “I don’t hold a hose mate”. Well he may not hold a thermometer or hand out masks but if he announced a program of remote quarantine stations it’d be the most effective measure in controlling these outbreaks. Maybe buy one less of those obsolete submarines and start to defend against this actual clear and present danger to the nation.

[Ragnor]

sorry but is this confirmed? Link?
ffs

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/sydney-couple-allegedly-failed-to-isolate-after-contracting-covid19/news-story/7b593228a0f52432f99f869122f24191

[kingRB]

The federal government can show initiative and institute remote quarantining, as every outbreak cluster has come from an inner city hotel (likely from this Sydney outbreak too). I warned this would repeat itself after the Adelaide outbreak, but no initiative seems to be taken.


Indeed. What was Scomo and the Government possibly thinking, not paying attention to your posts PPRuNe?

[maggot]

Ta

frustrating to say the least

[Bodie1]

Be careful what you wish for, boyo.

No, get rid of the fruitcakes.

[lc_461]

The idea of setting up remote quarantine facilities, whilst great in theory, I imagine would be impossible in practice. At the current cap (6000), they would need to accommodate 12 000 people (2 weeks) + maybe hundreds of staff. Even if you split this over many facilities, the logistics would be a nightmare. Many regional towns struggle to attract Doctors during normal times, the ability to find medical and other specialist staff to run these camps would be a challenge. Imagine the NIMBY brigade wherever it would be located. Foreign airlines are unlikely to be prepared to detour to places like ASP (cargo not going there).
The government could charter flights from the capitals to take the great unwashed to these regional places.. but then they would have to get them back again. The cost would be enormous. I think for now the focus should be on closing loopholes and throwing everything at the rapid emergency response. Immediate SMS to everyone in a region where an outbreak has occurred. Ringfencing of outbreak areas (like the northern beaches). No country has successfully 'eliminated' the virus, the vaccine is unlikely to be a smoking gun and we need to learn to adapt to this for at least the next 12 months.

[halfmoon]

I have seen AFP, NSW state police, army reservists assisting quarantine passengers onto buses with no mask or gloves. And we think the virus is coming from quarantine hotels....or flight crew.....really? There are so many ways this virus can get out.

[Green.Dot]

30 new cases today.

Partial city lockdown, cases still going up- many similarities with the Melbourne outbreak.

I seriously hope it doesn’t continue to mirror it for the whole country’s sake.

[Ragnor]

Not even close to ML, of those 30 28 are already linked and contained two under investigation. Victoria didn’t have a clue form day dot what or where was occurring.

[Bend alot]

30 new cases today.

Partial city lockdown, cases still going up- many similarities with the Melbourne outbreak.

I seriously hope it doesn’t continue to mirror it for the whole country’s sake.
Shutting down just the Northern Beaches was a joke.

What is that a max of around 40km - any cluster needs an immediate decent shut down 200km radius for 3 or 4 days. We know one of the new cluster got to the Gold Coast and back.

[KRviator]

"What we know is that this sequence from this strain that is associated with this cluster is most closely linked to a returned traveller from overseas who arrived in the country on 1st December. It is important to know that we don't know how common that is in Australia. Obviously we are testing all of the returning travellers from overseas and we are accessing international databases to get some idea. But you can imagine some countries like the US, gene sequencing isn't their priority given the number of cases they have. Source (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-20/coronavirus-australia-live-news-covid-19-latest-northern-beaches/13000806)So, if they arrived in-country on December 01, how is it they were not in the 2 weeks mandatory detention given it was detected on what, December 11? Yet another case of money talk$ and bull$hit walk$? "We'll quarantine at our multi-million dollar property at Palm Beach...We promise! :hmm:"

[Bodie1]

You lot surprise me, outraged that wealthy have a different set of rules. c'mon, get a grip. Outraged a boomer didn't isolate while waiting for a test result, outrage, outrage, outrage. You live in a western democracy with freedom of movement, usually, now you're expecting people to 'do the right thing.' Short of declaring marshal law nothing will change and this **** will go on for years. Your outrage is worthless.

[Sunfish]

Victoria closing to Sydney and central coast pax from tonight.

[Ragnor]

Same as SA. Open close open close the standard has been set. Appears no one is prepared to live with it. This is how life will be for the next few yrs get used to it.

[Sunfish]

Bodie: You lot surprise me, outraged that wealthy have a different set of rules. c'mon, get a grip. Outraged a boomer didn't isolate while waiting for a test result, outrage, outrage, outrage. You live in a western democracy with freedom of movement, usually, now you're expecting people to 'do the right thing.' Short of declaring marshal law nothing will change and this **** will go on for years. Your outrage is worthless.

How about a mandatory year in the slammer for a first offence. Think that might provide some attitude adjustment?

[Ragnor]

How is a public health order can be breached and no penalty! What’s the point as these two elderly demonstrated.

[Bodie1]

And get used to being stood up, stood down, stood up, stood down. I feel a great deal of empathy for anybody employed in the airline, hospitality industries etc. Thank christ 'We're all in this together'

[Marauder]

Good Idea Sunny, but some guy with a wig will fall for the bleeding heart story that the (insert bull**** sob story here) and wholly suspend the sentence and not record a conviction.

And what chance of getting it through parliament when Minister breaches earlier quarantine and the Premier continued business as usual while waiting for test results.

[Bodie1]

How about a mandatory year in the slammer for a first offence. Think that might provide some attitude adjustment?

At no stage do I advocate or brush off the breaching of isolation orders, I've done two of them myself. I merely point out that human behaviour, especially in our type of democracy will always favour self interest. Always. And sometimes that self interest is necessary for survival, like putting food on the table or paying the rent.

Your friend Daniel Andrews has set the precedent when it comes to not charging people for intentional breaches, something about wanting them to be honest about contact they've had with others.

[Bend alot]

So, if they arrived in-country on December 01, how is it they were not in the 2 weeks mandatory detention given it was detected on what, December 11? Yet another case of money talk$ and bull$hit walk$? "We'll quarantine at our multi-million dollar property at Palm Beach...We promise! :hmm:"7.30 understands the 13 airline crew fined landed in Sydney on a flight repatriating Australians from South America on Saturday, December 5.

A source told 7.30 that a group of airline staff were caught out and about at a variety of different venues in Mascot when they should have been self-isolating in their hotel rooms.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-18/airline-crew-fined-by-police-for-breaching-covid-self-isolation/12997524

[Buster Hyman]

Your friend Daniel Andrews has set the precedent when it comes to not charging people for intentional breaches, something about wanting them to be honest about contact they've had with others.
Totally understand this point however, if there was a serious & definitive consequence for the breach then perhaps the breach wouldn't happen at all.

Maybe the Govt. can say they won't fine people, but they'll make all the necessary information available to anyone who wants to start a civil action for damages. I can think of a Truck Driver & the cafe's in Regional Victoria he affected. The Cafe's could do with some financial compensation.

[compressor stall]

How is a public health order can be breached and no penalty! What’s the point as these two elderly demonstrated.

A good example of why pilots aren't public health experts and public health experts shouldn't fly planes.

You have a society with no known recent community transmission. You have a choice.

1. Let anybody and everybody freely get tested if asymptomatic or for the most minor nasal tickle or hay fever or other symptoms and allow them to continue on with their lives uninterrupted until their results come back. This way you have a greater chance of picking up something that is unknown circulating, OR
2. Enforce / mandate people to self isolate after every test. The natural consequence of this is that fewer people will submit themselves to testing as it will come at a financial cost (missed work shifts) or inconvenience for up to 36 hours. This allows the virus gets deeper into the community before it is eventually detected.

Which way do you go?

[Note truck drivers intentionally breaking their directions not to enter public places is a different story].

[Australopithecus]

Sorry Compressor Stall, that is a false dichotomy. The first scenario is only true if there is no vector into the community, which isn’t true given the token restrictions on crews and, apparently, wealthy luminaries. The cost to the country far far outweighs the needs of individuals, and there should be proportional (draconian) penalties for non-compliance.

[Bodie1]

It is absolutely ludicrous to think that you can control human behaviours in a western democracy. Especially when certain groups are disadvantaged more than others. A financial services worker, working from home with no loss of income over the last year as opposed to a casualised security worker relying on every single shift for survival. Then you have the social justice warriors harrassing anyone they feel has ruined their christmas because they were 'reckless' enough to unknowingly catch a virus from another.

Pathetic political responses. Any inbreed can close state borders when a few people catch a virus. These state leaders are lauded by their citizens for 'keeping us safe.' I would have thought that if citizens are given the right tools that they could 'keep themselves safe' but apparently personal responsibility doesn't exist as a concept anymore.

[compressor stall]

Sorry Compressor Stall, that is a false dichotomy. The first scenario is only true if there is no vector into the community, which isn’t true given the token restrictions on crews and, apparently, wealthy luminaries. The cost to the country far far outweighs the needs of individuals, and there should be proportional (draconian) penalties for non-compliance.
You can apologise all you like but even if there are vectors into the community every couple of months it is a given that people who will suffer financial hardship or inconvenience during the wait for a test result will not as willingly subject themselves to a test. We all know how this virus can present anywhere on the spectrum from nothing to hacking coughs and worse. Those who are asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic are the most dangerous and should have no disincentive to test.

[goodonyamate]

So Sydney is shut out from the rest of ‘Australia’ because of two self entitled boomers. Just another way that generation has f@&ked this country. Well done dickheads you should be in prison.

[PoppaJo]

So Sydney is shut out from the rest of ‘Australia’ because of two self entitled boomers. Just another way that generation has f@&ked this country. Well done dickheads you should be in prison.
And once again Aviation cops the brunt. My employer will lose half its capacity across its network from this. Thousands back on stand down for who knows how long.

We then need to wait for weeks of zero transmission until the states open the doors again. It is now February.

[jrfsp]

We can only hope the outbreak has been contained to NSW otherwise we will be back to the skeleton schedules. It further erodes people confidence to book trips when these sudden outbreaks occur.

Joshy might want to get his revisit the maths from last week

[SOPS]

So Sydney is shut out from the rest of ‘Australia’ because of two self entitled boomers. Just another way that generation has f@&ked this country. Well done dickheads you should be in prison.

Who are these two people? I understood the original source has not been found.

[Ragnor]

And once again Aviation cops the brunt. My employer will lose half its capacity across its network from this. Thousands back on stand down for who knows how long.

We then need to wait for weeks of zero transmission until the states open the doors again. It is now February.

Don’t be to concerned yet of months of stand down etc. As the NSW premier said today 30 cases sounds bad but, it’s not all bad news all within Northern beaches 28 are linked to the RSL 2 under investigation. Hopefully tomorrow if there are still high numbers they’re all in the same LGA. One things I have seen is the compliance of ppl to stay home in the last 3 days which is encouraging. Just like the Parafield cluster this Northern beaches cluster will be short lived and just a bump in the road.

Gladys and Hazzard have said there will be outbreaks along the way so NSW has not let its guard down and was prepared. WA is not prepared and ran for the hills on the first sniff. The other states for the first time I agree closing to SY but I hope they don’t close for months if the numbers settle by end of the yr.

[Bodie1]

because of two self entitled boomers.

Nobody likes a boomer, but........it's more than likely an aviation industry worker that spread it.

And you're blaming the wrong boomers (or gen x'ers) for the shutdowns.

[KRviator]

Who are these two people? I understood the original source has not been found.According to NSW CHO Dr Kerry Chant (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-20/coronavirus-australia-live-news-covid-19-latest-northern-beaches/13000806):
"What we know is that this sequence from this strain that is associated with this cluster is most closely linked to a returned traveller from overseas who arrived in the country on 1st December. It is important to know that we don't know how common that is in Australia. Obviously we are testing all of the returning travellers from overseas and we are accessing international databases to get some idea. But you can imagine some countries like the US, gene sequencing isn't their priority given the number of cases they have.

"There is no-one else we have identified that could be the source. At the moment we are forensically looking at all of the journeys of that individual to see if there were any points associated with it. I think I spoke at my press conference yesterday that we have been testing in the vicinity of that person in terms of cleaners or anyone that might have cleaned a room after the person left - [we are taking] the upmost precaution to just check whether they could have been the source. Can I just say, there is an intensive investigation under way and, while I really do want to find the source, it may be that this is going to be a challenge beyond us. But we are doing everything we can.If they arrived 01 December they would (should) have been in hotel quarantine until December 15. So how did this particular strain get out & about on the Northern Beaches on December 10/11? And why mention about "checking their room after they left" if it was already in the community before they should have left quarantine?

To me, it's either someone who is allowed to quarantine at home as part of their normal duties, or some boomer who bought their way out of quarantine and in doing so, thought the rest of the rules didn't apply to them.

WA is not prepared and ran for the hills on the first sniff.They showed why they're so shyte-scared of it though! They can't handle the testing rate required! Their test centers were turning people away at an overall testing-rate of only 2,000 per day "4x the normal rate" says Mark McGoose. Hell, if you can't handle 2,000 tests a day, and are only averaging 500/day normally it's no wonder you'll want to keep people out. I shudder to think what'd happen if it does get into the WA community! NSW runs around 10,000 tests/day in normal times. 20x the number of WA tests, but with only 3x the population. And McGoose want's to lecture Gladys on how things should be done? Pfft!Premier Mark McGowan says almost 2000 people presented at clinics on Thursday, about four times the usual daily number.Source (https://www.manningrivertimes.com.au/story/7060993/frustration-as-was-covid-clinics-struggle/)

[goodonyamate]

There were two people, a 60 year old and a 70 year old, who had symptoms, got tested, were ordered to quarantine and didn’t. Instead they went on a tour of the northern beaches including the Avalon rsl and bowlo. This has been well documented.

i accept that how they contracted it is still a mystery.

however, because of the selfishness and sense of entitlement of these two (yes they are boomers...gen x 1965...) the outbreak worsened when it shouldnt have, at least not to the current extent.

these two should be Locked up. I make no apologies for singling them out as boomers. As gen x myself, I’ve followed them my whole life, and seen the massive windfalls that have come their way, that no current generation will ever see. It’s like a drug for them. They always want more. And they want the following generations to pay for it. When this all kicked off in March, in my area, everyone was doing the right thing. Distancing, staying home etc...everyone except the boomers who were out mingling with their friends. Saw it first hand. No distancing. Nothing.
my parents are disgusted at their own generation. Because of these two. Thousands of xmas’s, including my own family’s, are ruined. Haven’t seen them since January. And now won’t.

Edit...small number of boomers giving the rest a bad name. :cool::p

[LostWanderer]

Don’t be to concerned yet of months of stand down etc. As the NSW premier said today 30 cases sounds bad but, it’s not all bad news all within Northern beaches 28 are linked to the RSL 2 under investigation. Hopefully tomorrow if there are still high numbers they’re all in the same LGA. One things I have seen is the compliance of ppl to stay home in the last 3 days which is encouraging. Just like the Parafield cluster this Northern beaches cluster will be short lived and just a bump in the road

I love optimism as much as the next guy, but every time a city/state/country believes things are getting under control...right on cue we get a flare up of differing severity. Question is, while maybe this one will be small and controlled there is no assurance the next one will be and I would wager there will be more to come.

All it takes is a severe super spreader event and a whole bunch more of us will likely not return to the skies anytime in the near future and for some maybe never as a bunch of QF and VA folk sadly have experienced. It'a a fragile little industry and until a vaccine is widely available and actually fully effective against the virus and mutation, any job security in the airlines are going to be minimal at best.

[Servo]

I wonder if it is possible to find out who the 60 and 70yo are and if it would be possible to take a civil case against them for loss of income, business etc?

Just thinking.

[DirectAnywhere]

Quarantining infectious returned travellers in capital cities has to stop - now. It has been proven 3 times that the risks simply cannot be managed.

If the aviation industry had failed to learn from its mistakes in a similar manner there would be smoking holes off the end of every runway daily.

TGA needs to expedite vaccine approval. If efficacious vaccines have been approved by reputable overseas regulators, it shouldn't take until January for approval and March for first doses to be administered.

This is getting harder to take every time it happens. Personally, this one has knocked me around worse than the last couple. There was such optimism a few days ago and we have managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, for the same reason. Again.

[Green.Dot]

Just like the Parafield cluster this Northern beaches cluster will be short lived and just a bump in the road.

If they get it under control in quick time, then yes it will be a bump in the road for most of society.

But it’s no bump in the road for domestic aviation. Unless your definition of a bump is the bucket kicked down the road 2 months minimum.

And unlike Adelaide, Sydney/Melbourne are crucial to stand up a large majority of the aviation network across the country.

[Bodie1]

And McGoose want's to lecture Gladys on how things should be done?

This bloke is a complete ****wit. Clueless.

[Ragnor]

As a Sydney based Pilot, I’m waiting the stand down! It is a bump in the road as long as the rest of the country is open the effects on other bases will be there but not total stand downs. If I get a 2 month stand down well that’s how it is but the business is earning money and we will all have something to go back to.

Anyone else who is in Sydney with the scaremongering others had spread that domestic will be dead for a long time, zoom will be the new way etc welll there has been plenty of travelers and a tonne of business people.

[Turnleft080]

As a Sydney based Pilot, I’m waiting the stand down! It is a bump in the road as long as the rest of the country is open the effects on other bases will be there but not total stand downs. If I get a 2 month stand down well that’s how it is but the business is earning money and we will all have something to go back to.

Anyone else who is in Sydney with the scaremongering others had spread that domestic will be dead for a long time, zoom will be the new way etc welll there has been plenty of travelers and a tonne of business people.

Operations from all airlines now starting to cancel flights into SYD.

[myshoutcaptain]

Operations from all airlines now starting to cancel flights into SYD.

Silver lining? More work to be done by Australian based crew/airlines?.

[dr dre]

This bloke is a complete ****wit. Clueless.

West Aussies will be enjoying the lead up to Christmas in near total freedom, certain residents of Sydney won’t. You think the average West Aussie would rather Gladys in charge?

You know there’s an entire community of people outside of aviation who get to vote right?

[Angle of Attack]

No remote quarantine is not too difficult, the Federal Gov needs to get off their bums and organise something, forget the quotas, you bring in as many as safely possible. Can’t get workers? Pay them 150k salary, you will get workers. Pay for domestic flights around the country once the arrivals are out of quarantine. You bet it’s expensive but this stop start crap will dwarf the costs of a proper remote quarantine system. Vaccine ain’t gonna bring relief anytime soon, at best the end of 21, do we want another year of Stop Starting of the economy? I’ve been advocating remote quarantine since May last year, I think after every bloody state goes through the same mistakes eventually it might come next year. Unless Scomo actually uses initiative and does something for once.

[Chronic Snoozer]

West Aussies will be enjoying the lead up to Christmas in near total freedom, certain residents of Sydney won’t. You think the average West Aussie would rather Gladys in charge?

You know there’s an entire community of people outside of aviation who get to vote right?

There is practically no social distancing going on during Christmas shopping and poor application of the three. If it gets into WA, they're cactus.

[Bodie1]

West Aussies will be enjoying the lead up to Christmas in near total freedom, certain residents of Sydney won’t.

That's awesome for you. What comes across quite often from West Australians is the smug 'we're in near total freedom.' Well you've got that because you've got an insular clown who is lucky enough to have remote borders and a state that virtually no Australian wants to be in apart from West Australians. Your state has always had a massive chip on its shoulder and you now see payback. What Mc****wit does, anybody could do. What Gladys, Hazzard & Chant does is try and manage the virus holistically, it's obvious they are trying to manage the virus, the economy and people's mental health.

You think the average West Aussie would rather Gladys in charge?

I'm in NSW at the moment, I've been caught up in lockdowns but am fortunate enough to have escaped most of it, I wouldn't be anywhere else, I'm lucky, I'm with family. I'd take Gladys in charge any day than a smug ****wit who's lucky enough to have the natural resources to keep a state afloat. Face it, you've got nothing else, a backwater really. If you left the federation no one would care.