All borders to reopen.

[Xeptu]

Chances of a life threatening blood clot from the AZ vaccine 1 in 1,000,000
Chances of being struck by lightning 1 in 140,000

Sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it.

[SOPS]

Chances of a life threatening blood clot from the AZ vaccine 1 in 1,000,000
Chances of being struck by lightning 1 in 140,000

Sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it.

Im fully done with AZ. My wife is having her second AZ tomorrow. I spent years flying across the North Pole. Getting radiated or taking the chance of diverting to some sxxt hole airport in the middle of nowhere. I’m happy to take my chances with AZ.

[601]

Our government's slow response to getting vaccines is certainly one reason why we are way behind the civilized world
Where would we be, in your estimation, if we had received the 3 million AZ doses that did not turn up from Europe and the Pfizer withheld by Biden?

[WingNut60]

Im fully done with AZ. My wife is having her second AZ tomorrow. I spent years flying across the North Pole. Getting radiated or taking the chance of diverting to some sxxt hole airport in the middle of nowhere. I’m happy to take my chances with AZ.
There must be a significant wedge of us oldies just coming due for our second AZ.
Some may have taken up the chance to have their second dose a little earlier when the rules changed but many would have been content to wait out the 12 weeks.
I expect to see a spike in "fully vaccinated" this month.

[aviation_enthus]

Where would we be, in your estimation, if we had received the 3 million AZ doses that did not turn up from Europe and the Pfizer withheld by Biden?

Unless you have something to back your claim, all the evidence I’ve seen (including a senate inquiry answer by relevant bureaucrats) says Pfizer is delivering to the planned schedule.

Scotty from marketing can’t PR his way out of not ordering enough early on!

[compressor stall]

Where would we be, in your estimation, if we had received the 3 million AZ doses that did not turn up from Europe and the Pfizer withheld by Biden?
in the same place.

Regarding the AZ supply from Italy, from ABC on March 5:

“In a statement a spokesperson for the Health Minister Greg Hunt said the shipment that has already arrived in Australia would "take us through" to when it is made locally from the end of the month.
"[The Italy shipment] is one shipment from one country," they said.
"This shipment was not factored into our distribution plan for coming weeks.
"Domestic production starts with 1 million per week of deliveries from late March and is on track."

and one week later AZ was tarnished in this country.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Chances of a life threatening blood clot from the AZ vaccine 1 in 1,000,000
Chances of being struck by lightning 1 in 140,000

Sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it.

From the CDC Lightning is one of the leading causes of weather-related fatalities. But the odds of being struck by lightning in a given year are only around 1 in 500,000. However, some factors can put you at greater risk for being struck. Regional, seasonal, and occupational differences affect your risk of being injured by lightning.

Last reports - Chance of getting a blood clot from AZ was 1 in 77000

Chance of Xeptu having no idea ... 1 in 1

Sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it.....

[blubak]

There must be a significant wedge of us oldies just coming due for our second AZ.
Some may have taken up the chance to have their second dose a little earlier when the rules changed but many would have been content to wait out the 12 weeks.
I expect to see a spike in "fully vaccinated" this month.
Yes,i think you would be right,we are both due in next few weeks & in late may/early june when we got ours the walk in sites were booked out for at least a week in advance so as you say there will be lots due for their 2nd jab soon.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Last reports - Chance of getting a blood clot from AZ was 1 in 77000

Chance of Xeptu having no idea ... 1 in 1



But chance of a fatal clot from AZ is more like 1 in 1000 000.

[Foxxster]

Unless you have something to back your claim, all the evidence I’ve seen (including a senate inquiry answer by relevant bureaucrats) says Pfizer is delivering to the planned schedule.

Scotty from marketing can’t PR his way out of not ordering enough early on!


wrong in relation to AstraZeneca. Had we had those 3 million on time before the great big scare campaign we would be significantly ahead of where we are now. And if people remember we had a target of 4 million doses by the end of March, something that people jumped on Morrison for missing, notably the hopeless Labor party. Now you see why we missed that target.

AstraZeneca, which is producing the COVID-19 vaccine at cost for the duration of the pandemic, is facing global pressure to boost supply. It had planned to provide 180 million doses to the EU in the second quarter but will only deliver 40 million. (https://www.smh.com.au/link/follow-20170101-p57e8m)

The British-Swedish company also told the Morrison government in January that it could only provide 1.2 million offshore doses in February and March instead of the expected 3.8 million. Only 717,000 doses – the ones from the UK – have arrived so far, leaving 3.1 million doses in the balance.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/more-than-700-000-astrazeneca-doses-secretly-flown-to-australia-from-britain-20210407-p57hcl.html

[43Inches]

Australia has huge amounts of AZ in reserve, that is not an issue, so much so Morrison has given away 5 million doses to the Pacific. It's also made in Melbourne now. The article is a disingenuous propaganda piece trying to defer blame from the government, from what it says only 2 million doses have been delivered yet 6+ million doses have been administered (TGA). You have to remember that ANYONE over 18 years old can get the AZ if they sign a waiver, this has been the case now for a number of months. The lack of information and scaremongering was before AZ was even available, as the issues arose during testing.

Pfizer delays for Australia is purely that the Morrison Gov put all its eggs in one basket, AZ, and then too late placed backup orders of Pf. This means Australia was way down the waiting list of nations, things have changed recently due to 'deals' being signed, which are in confidence for what reason? Micallef had a funny answer, suggesting we had also placed an overpriced order for more useless helicopters from the US to secure the deal, sadly he's probably more correct than just being funny.

[Foxxster]

Australia has huge amounts of AZ in reserve, that is not an issue, so much so Morrison has given away 5 million doses to the Pacific. It's also made in Melbourne now. The article is a disingenuous propaganda piece trying to defer blame from the government, from what it says only 2 million doses have been delivered yet 6+ million doses have been administered (TGA). You have to remember that ANYONE over 18 years old can get the AZ if they sign a waiver, this has been the case now for a number of months. The lack of information and scaremongering was before AZ was even available, as the issues arose during testing.

the article was written in April. The blood clot issue didn’t occur until March. Other issue around efficacy were present earlier.

[43Inches]

the article was written in April. The blood clot issue didn’t occur until March. Other issue around efficacy were present earlier.

Sweden suspended AZ use in March due the number of clotting events, which had been steadily occurring since start of use in December 2020, and had occurred in trials. At the same time advice from other European countries changed to restrict its use to over 65. The drama around the clotting and TTS had been going on since the drugs introduction in late 2020.

[MickG0105]

It’s so telling when the self-proclaimed “numbers” person drifts into politics and starts using words like “utterly inane” and “nonsense” to describe matters other than statistics.

Then why put the question to me?! I think "it's so telling" that you put the question to me not once, but twice, second time suggesting that I was dodging it.

Anyone who completed Year 6 Social Studies would be familiar enough with the Australian political system to know that all this talk about the Commonwealth using nationhood power, S 96 and vertical fiscal imbalance to do an end run on the Constitution and seize a State power is just rank nonsense. It has the tenor of an eight year old enumerating the reasons why unicorns do too exist!

And the government doesn’t need to make a law that can be stopped by the Senate, to achieve the outcome.
We'll tender that as Exhibit A. Absolutely mind boggling that you apparently believe that.

So, how precisely does the Commonwealth acquire control of health, prevent the states from issuing public health orders, finance S 96 grants if not by legislation? Military fiat? Führerbefehle? Magic wand?

And a spending bill that originates in the Senate can be blocked by the government in the House.
Tender Exhibit B.

Spending bills cannot originate in the Senate. The Constitution is manifestly clear on this.

53. Powers of the Houses in respect of legislationProposed laws appropriating revenue or moneys, or imposing taxation, shall not originate in the Senate. ...



It's the first sentence! But yeah, what would the "numbers" guy know about politics?


We are living in an authoritarian state, now. If you could get your head out of the numbers for a moment, you’d see that many Australian are being told, on pain of criminal liability, that they can’t visit their families and friends and can’t travel more than a specified number of kilometres from home. There are police and ADF members on the streets enforcing those restrictions. It suits Scotty that a lot of the consequent ‘blowback’ hits the state premiers rather than him.

The Commonwealth coerces the states, financially, all the time. And the government doesn’t need to make a law that can be stopped by the Senate, to achieve the outcome. And a spending bill that originates in the Senate can be blocked by the government in the House.

The Commonwealth has enough power to take over and run the response on a nationally consistent basis. Its failure to do so is a political decision, plain and simple. It’s probably a blessing in disguise though, because we can only speculate what a clusterf*ck it would be if Scotty or what’s-his-name on the other ‘side’ stepped up.
Yes, sure, why not. I suppose that there's an alternate reality somewhere out there where the Federal government seized health powers from the states without any push back from any of the parliament, the states or the courts; managed to change funding allocations and to fund S 96 grants without having to rely on legislation; etc, etc. It is not this reality.

The problem is that no matter how many times you stamp your foot and say that unicorns are real, in this reality, they're not.

[Xeptu]

From the CDC Lightning is one of the leading causes of weather-related fatalities. But the odds of being struck by lightning in a given year are only around 1 in 500,000. However, some factors can put you at greater risk for being struck. Regional, seasonal, and occupational differences affect your risk of being injured by lightning.

Last reports - Chance of getting a blood clot from AZ was 1 in 77000

Chance of Xeptu having no idea ... 1 in 1

Sort of puts it into perspective doesn't it.....

None of us here are experts, certainly not me. This reads personal, is there something I should know about behind that.

[Foxxster]

What a bloody disgrace.

that idiot Queensland chief medical officer aka the quack is at it again. Asked about AstraZeneca at this mornings press conference she again doubled down on her 18 year olds should not get AstraZeneca. Asked what age it was ok for she said 60.

So we have the chook as premier, the goose as deputy premier and the quack as chief medical officer. F*ckers one and all.

[industry insider]

When I had the AZ, both times my Doc suggested I took 2x Aspirin a day for 2 days before and 2 weeks afterwards. Made me feel easier even if it didn't do anything real.

[Car RAMROD]

When did Ana get back from Tokyo? July 25th wasn’t it?

When is her 14 day quarantine over then based on that date? August 8.

When has the QLD lockdown been extended to? August 8.


hmmmmmmmmmm

[Angle of Attack]

Barnaby Joyce, just announced Pilots and Cabin crew up to 50% of the Airlines workforce will be able to now claim the $750 a week regardless
of where they live, aka they dont have to reside in Sydney or Brisbane, as long as they have lost work.

Obviously been lobbied by the Airlines as they probably now realise this Clu$ter won’t end this year, and Standowns will be required….

[Pearly White]

Useful document available here from the Commonwealth Department of Health (https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/06/covid-19-vaccination-weighing-up-the-potential-benefits-against-risk-of-harm-from-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca_1.pdf) about the relative risks of AZ.

I'm fully vaxxed with AZ and perfectly fine. But urge any of you with doubts to seek informed medical advice from your GP. Not from a pilot forum, Facebook, Murdoch press or SkyNews.

[turbantime]

Barnaby Joyce, just announced Pilots and Cabin crew up to 50% of the Airlines workforce will be able to now claim the $750 a week regardless
of where they live, aka they dont have to reside in Sydney or Brisbane, as long as they have lost work.

Obviously been lobbied by the Airlines as they probably now realise this Clu$ter won’t end this year, and Standowns will be required….
Allows them to enact stand downs unilaterally now. Here we go again…

[SOPS]

Barnaby Joyce, just announced Pilots and Cabin crew up to 50% of the Airlines workforce will be able to now claim the $750 a week regardless
of where they live, aka they dont have to reside in Sydney or Brisbane, as long as they have lost work.

Obviously been lobbied by the Airlines as they probably now realise this Clu$ter won’t end this year, and Standowns will be required….

That does not sound good.

[Muttley Crew]

What a bloody disgrace.

that idiot Queensland chief medical officer aka the quack is at it again. Asked about AstraZeneca at this mornings press conference she again doubled down on her 18 year olds should not get AstraZeneca. Asked what age it was ok for she said 60.

So we have the chook as premier, the goose as deputy premier and the quack as chief medical officer. F*ckers one and all.

Sorry but my rant filter was off and this got through. What exactly is the "bloody disgrace"? Do you disagree with Dr. Young's advice? If so, on what grounds? Do you have qualifications more suitable than Dr. Young's with which to judge the situation and determine the safe age parameters for injection of the experimental AZ therapy? Are you a quack? Let's hear it.

I understood Dr. Young's advice was in keeping with the latest ATAGI advice:

"With only 42 coronavirus cases active in Queensland, AstraZeneca was not worth the risk for younger adults, she (Dr. Young) said. “No, I do not want under 40s to get AstraZeneca because they are at increased risk of getting -- it is rare -- but they’re at increased risk of getting that rare clotting syndrome,” Young said. “I don’t want an 18-year-old in Queensland dying from a clotting illness who, if they got COVID, probably wouldn’t die,” Young added."
Sounds like good advice to me. What's the real motivation for your dissatisfaction, Foxxster?

"But ATAGI advised that AstraZeneca could be administered to people under 60 “for whom Pfizer is not available.” Conditions included that benefits were likely to outweigh risks and that the decision to take AstraZeneca was informed...."

Oh.

Informed. Yes, I see the problem. You think it's a disgrace that we don't have informed consent here in Australia. I completely agree.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Xeptu - Nothing personal, sorry if you felt that. Just trying to point out that your stats were not valid.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
[QUOTE][But chance of a fatal clot from AZ is more like 1 in 1000 000./QUOTE]

Xeptu didn't say "Fatal", and then what is the stat for a fatal lightning strike? Anyhow, it is an irrelevant stat, because if I don't go out side during a lightning storm the chance of getting fatally struck is 0. However if I choose to be injected with Astra ..............

[rattman]

When has the QLD lockdown been extended to? August 8.


hmmmmmmmmmm

Might be time to put on the tin foil hat. Think she gets out on the 9th. You actually spend 15 days in quarantine as the day you arrive is day 0. It 14 complete days

[Xeptu]

Xeptu - Nothing personal, sorry if you felt that. Just trying to point out that your stats were not valid

It's got nothing to do with "feel" If you're going to "Name" someone and use statements like "No Idea" It's Personal.

The only time I would support that is when an opinion is clearly not supported by anyone.

[DHC8 Driver]

Xeptu - Nothing personal, sorry if you felt that. Just trying to point out that your stats were not valid.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
[QUOTE][But chance of a fatal[color=#000000] clot from AZ is more like 1 in 1000 000./QUOTE]

Xeptu didn't say "Fatal", and then what is the stat for a fatal lightning strike? Anyhow, it is an irrelevant stat, because if I don't go out side during a lightning storm the chance of getting fatally struck is 0. However if I choose to be injected with Astra ..............

You are correct. It’s your choice. Choose to be a part of the solution or choose to not get vaccinated and be more likely get infected, more likely to infect others, and almost certainly ensure that the borders stay closed longer and more pilots lose their jobs.

You’re right - it’s your choice. But if you choose to not get vaccinated please don’t complain about border closures.

[mattyj]

For those members of society (willing or reluctant) who choose to engage in civil disobedience as a means of protest, they should do so in the full knowledge that they will likely suffer consequences.

For any involved in aviation, they should be aware that those consequences may compromise their ASIC privilege.

..who needs the gestapo to take away our freedom to protest when we have our fellow citizens doing the job for them.

more likely get infected, more likely to infect others,

according to the CDC, being vaccinated improves neither of those things for you.

https://apnews.com/article/science-health-coronavirus-pandemic-d9504519a8ae081f785ca012b5ef84d1

[Australopithecus]

You are being deliberately obtuse. The current reports from the CDC all emphasise the importance of being vaccinated. The vaccine is for me, the mask is for you. Don’t count on my ongoing dedication to your safety if you can’t be bothered to save yourself.

[unobtanium]

I can't believe there so many idiots flying aircraft, must be the 6 or so quarts of oil i tip into each engine every few days messing up your brains. If you pilots are so scared of statistics yous better stay at home.

[SOPS]

I can't believe there so many idiots flying aircraft, must be the 6 or so quarts of oil i tip into each engine every few days messing up your brains. If you pilots are so scared of statistics yous better stay at home.


What I can’t believe is the people on here that rely on flying an aircraft for an income, but seem so determined not to have a vax at every turn. I can’t understand it.. but each to their own. For the record , I’m 60 my darling wife is 62, both fully vaxed with AZ and still very much alive.

[Xeptu]

I’m 60 my darling wife is 62, both fully vaxed with AZ and still very much alive.

That's not what your wife said!!!! lol, but seriously how many weeks between jabs

[SOPS]

That's not what your wife said!!!! lol, but seriously how many weeks between jabs
12 weeks for me , 11 for My darling.

[Nulli Secundus]

Mattyj

Please attribute your quotes!

In so far as breakthrough cases are concerned, the message so far from this data appears to simply lean toward maintaining caution in the form of face masks, among other strategies. Vaccination still makes complete sense.

The CDC report actually said: The findings in this report are subject to at least four limitations. First, data from this report are insufficient to draw conclusions about the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, including the Delta variant, during this outbreak.

The Associated Press article said:The documents were obtained by The Washington Post. As they note, COVID-19 vaccines are still highly effective against the delta variant at preventing serious illness and death.

The Provincetown outbreak and the documents highlight the enormous challenge the CDC faces in encouraging vaccination while acknowledging that breakthrough cases can occur and can be contagious but are uncommon.

[Foxxster]

NSW plan.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-s-recovery-road-map-has-schools-and-hospitality-first-to-return-20210802-p58f6l.html (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/nsw-s-recovery-road-map-has-schools-and-hospitality-first-to-return-20210802-p58f6l.htmlOutdoor)

Outdoor dining at pubs and clubs will be allowed, gyms can reopen with strict rules and students will be back in classrooms once a majority of NSW adults are vaccinated under the state government’s plan for how Sydney emerges from lockdown.

The long-awaited road map is yet to be publicly released, although Premier Gladys Berejiklian has begun citing targets of between 50 and 60 per cent of inoculated adults as a trigger for easing Sydney’s restrictions.
Article continues…

[Foxxster]

2,500 airline staff stood down for two months.

Qantas and its low-cost subsidiary Jetstar will stand down 2,500 staff as the COVID border closures across Australia continue.

The airline said that the stand-down is a temporary measure to deal with a significant drop in flying caused by COVID restrictions in Greater Sydney in particular and the knock-on border closures in all other states and territories. No job losses are expected.

It said the decision will directly impact domestic pilots, cabin crew, and airport workers, mostly in New South Wales but also in other states given the nature of airline networks. Employees will be given two weeks’ notice before the stand-down takes effect, with pay continuing until mid-August.

Qantas said that income support in the form of government disaster payments will be key to helping eligible employees get through this challenging period and the Qantas Group welcomes the targeted Federal Government support offered for those stood down outside of declared

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/qantas-stand-2500-border-closures-continue/

[PoppaJo]

The long-awaited road map is yet to be publicly released, although Premier Gladys Berejiklian has begun citing targets of between 50 and 60 per cent of inoculated adults as a trigger for easing Sydney’s restrictions.
Article continues…
I’d expect cases to takeoff again soon thereafter. I hope the other states continue to firm up the border in the medium term, I see Victoria did yesterday.

All states hit 70-80% Dec 31 and let’s open all the borders? I don’t think it’s going to play out like that. Old mate out West has other ideas.

All the Labor premiers will soon have Canberra and NSW by the balls. They will dictate what borders will open and how. Right on the edge of the Feds going to the polls.

[Ladloy]

All the Labor premiers will soon have Canberra and NSW by the balls. They will dictate what borders will open and how. Right on the edge of the Feds going to the polls.
Only because of the feds inaction is this the case. Too busy lining Gerry Harvey's and the Gas industry's pockets only to cheap out on vaccines. They could have been the heroes

[SHVC]

What do these premiers want to open borders? at least Gladdy has given something whether you agree or not ( I agree by the way). We have to get on with it, why should the whole country be held ransom by the ppl who dont want to take the step of getting the jab! not getting it is your choice I wont get into a debate on why you should etc however there needs to be a firm date of ops normal and if your not vaccinated its your responsibly to look after yourself. The stats of the success of the vaccine is there and cant be disputed, look for yourself who is in ICU and has died in NSW.

[PoppaJo]

What do these premiers want to open borders?.
This calendar year - 0 community transmission.

Next year. Who the heck knows. WA have said they want all vaccinated so don’t expect a uniform approach across the nation.

It will drag on if Sydney explodes again later this year. The others will then want 90-100% before dropping the walls. I’m not expecting the dust to settle until Easter at least.

[43Inches]

Only because of the feds inaction is this the case. Too busy lining Gerry Harvey's and the Gas industry's pockets only to cheap out on vaccines. They could have been the heroes

Don't forget pushing through $130 billion in defense spending quietly as the first outbreak took the headlines. Not to mention the rushed through act to force internet companies to pay for news, limiting news to Murdoch press and his cronies, further bills passed for internet censorship etc. There has been a lot pushed through by the gov while people squabble about lockdowns and vaccines, some directly affecting your ability to get the full story on things and therefor basic freedoms.

What do these premiers want to open borders? at least Gladdy has given something whether you agree or not ( I agree by the way). We have to get on with it, why should the whole country be held ransom by the ppl who dont want to take the step of getting the jab! not getting it is your choice I wont get into a debate on why you should etc however there needs to be a firm date of ops normal and if your not vaccinated its your responsibly to look after yourself. The stats of the success of the vaccine is there and cant be disputed, look for yourself who is in ICU and has died in NSW.

I live in Victoria and don't give care much for the country/borders being open as long as NSW keeps screwing it up. We are open within the state because we took it seriously and beat it. I agree go get vaccinated and its all a non event. The removalist debacle proved that open borders don't work, because uneducated people do uneducated things, and put other communities at risk.

[SHVC]

because uneducated people do uneducated things, and put other communities at risk.

This has been occurring for 100s of yrs, do we punish the nation?!

[601]

because uneducated people do uneducated things, and put other communities at risk.

I thought that there would be a lot of "educated" people on this forum.
Sadly I have changed my mind.

[Nulli Secundus]

Of the vaccine programme, 4 Corners reports the federal govt was so confident in Jan/ Feb this year that by taking charge of the rollout they fully expected to gain political mileage. Not working so well, that plan. As for the NSW 50-60% open up plan, even if termed as easing restrictions, really? Late to lock down, early to open up. Sorry premier, you may have afforded your state, and in turn the nation, that luxury or privilege to ease restrictions at 50-60% vaccinated had you locked down early and contained the spread. You didn't. Don't kid yourself an early mark will work here.

Its a public health crisis leading to an economic crisis not the other way round. You fix it in that order.

[43Inches]

This has been occurring for 100s of yrs, do we punish the nation?!

Why do we have laws at all, speed limits, road rules, boat licencing, fishing licences, OH&S rules, bans on fireworks, bans on guns, can't drive my tank around town and shoot ducks with it etc.... We have paid with freedom for many years for the stupidity of others, this is just a more obvious one. Some laws are because of crime, some laws are because of the uneducated and stupid. A few years back I could hammer around the bay in a quite large cruiser with no license at all, was like this for years, then a few twats with JetSkis decided to ram swimmers and cause mayhem and bang, I need a licence, despite having over 1000 hours driving watercraft. So yes, we suffer fools everyday, and since time began.

[AerialPerspective]

Why do we have laws at all, speed limits, road rules, boat licencing, fishing licences, OH&S rules, bans on fireworks, bans on guns, can't drive my tank around town and shoot ducks with it etc.... We have paid with freedom for many years for the stupidity of others, this is just a more obvious one. Some laws are because of crime, some laws are because of the uneducated and stupid. A few years back I could hammer around the bay in a quite large cruiser with no license at all, was like this for years, then a few twats with JetSkis decided to ram swimmers and cause mayhem and bang, I need a licence, despite having over 1000 hours driving watercraft. So yes, we suffer fools everyday, and since time began.

And if Prohibition in the United States showed the world anything, it's that in an ostensibly 'free' society, banning anything does not make it go away.

As has been observed on many occasions, the gun amnesties and the assault weapon ban under Howard achieved nothing more than law-abiding citizens handing over their guns to be bought back. They were not the people who were carrying out massacres.

I'd suggest if anyone cares to check, there was a 4 Corners program several years ago about guns which basically stated you go to somewhere like Fortitude Valley in QLD and randomly asked people who walk by on the street if they can get you a gun, it won't take more than 10 minutes or so for someone to say "yes". It is then a matter of what type of gun as to the cost. The reporters in that story if I remember correctly were able to arrange (although they didn't go through with it) to purchase any type of handgun including a .44 Magnum revolver and .45 automatics, it was just a matter of money - and it was much less than you'd guess, in the $100s, not $1000s.

So much for the gun amnesty and the laws.

[Green.Dot]

What do these premiers want to open borders?

More like what do the people want.

Take WA- vaccinated or unvaccinated I reckon 80% of the population will support a border closure with NSW until their cases are driven back down to ZERO for 14 days. Even if that takes 12 months.

They love their lifestyle and freedoms right now, can you blame them?

I reckon McGowan himself is surprised at the overwhelming appetitive for his on-going low risk strategies.

[43Inches]

So much for the gun amnesty and the laws.

Almost impossible to control hand guns, most of the success was removing high powered rifles from the community. The rules have been largely successful in curbing "mass shootings", the stats speak for themselves on that front. But we are comparing two separate things here, one is banning something people want and the other is controlling movement of people to stop the spread of something none of us want. A few in the community want guns, more want/like alcohol, no one of sound mind wants Covid. You have to remember that if you went to Central Africa and answered yes to going to active Ebola sites you would have your movement controlled sans Covid restrictions.

[mattyj]

Freedom is paid for in blood..this has been demonstrated time and time again in history..the vaccines don’t stop transmission or infection, they reduce hospitalisation risk for about 6 months depending on what flavour you get..eventually if we want a civilisation everyone will have to get Covid whether vaccinated or not. People will die, sacrifices have to be made for freedom as always.

[43Inches]

Freedom is paid for in blood..this has been demonstrated time and time again in history..the vaccines don’t stop transmission or infection, they reduce hospitalisation risk for about 6 months depending on what flavour you get..eventually if we want a civilisation everyone will have to get Covid whether vaccinated or not. People will die, sacrifices have to be made for freedom as always.

I choose you as the first sacrifice, into the volcano you go...

BTW people that have had covid are getting it again now, hence vaccination is offered to those that have had covid after 3 months (to prioritise those that have not as you do get some immunity through exposure). I suggest you return to the middle ages if you wish to spill blood to cure your afflictions, maybe add a course of leeches.

[Nulli Secundus]

Mattyj.......'vaccines don't stop transmissions or infection' - except in those people where it did.

As for freedom is paid for in blood, are you prepared to put on the public record that that will be your blood? Ready to take one for the team, from the team? Or, is it easier for you to process your proposed solution if you don't know the names of the sacrificed, the family and friends of the sacrificed, their photos, their life plans, their wonderful contributions to our community, their beautiful potential........ you get the picture.

And what is this civilisation you talk of?

[43Inches]

And what is this civilisation you talk of?

By the indications of sacrifices and such I suspect maybe he's a representative of the Mayans or Aztecs.

[mattyj]

I pray my family is spared but you’re all just delaying the inevitable

[Xeptu]

This conversation is playing out in the medical world as we speak. There are quite a number of pre vaccine infected staff who don't want to be infected a second time, vaccinated or not.

As a consequence of that, there are just as many that don't want to be infected for the first time either, yet that is what's expected in a post vaccinated environment. It's a dilemma and one that's causing quite a bit of distress. For pilots, having personally witnessed a Long Covid Breathlessness episode, whilst you will be able to deny your way through a medical, the first time an episode occurs in the workplace will no doubt be the last time you fly. I can't see that being acceptable for a class one medical certificate.

What do we do, how do we address this before it happens.

[common cents]

Freedom is paid for in blood..this has been demonstrated time and time again in history..the vaccines don’t stop transmission or infection, they reduce hospitalisation risk for about 6 months depending on what flavour you get..eventually if we want a civilisation everyone will have to get Covid whether vaccinated or not. People will die, sacrifices have to be made for freedom as always.

A fair assessment of the reality of Covid IMHO.
CDC latest info states the fact that many vaccinated people are still carrying viral loads similar to unvaccinated and are able to transmit the virus.
If anyone doubts the CDC just look at real world data from Singapore,Israel,or the UK.
However the vaccines are still considered to be very effective at reducing serious disease.
So any argument about saving everyone from becoming infected by vaccinating is rapidly loosing credibility.
Ultimately for those that seek maximum disease protection go and get jabbed but don’t push that on others for the sake of humanity because it simply doesn’t work that way. At least according to the CDC and real world experience.
Best of luck to all.

[machtuk]

Will people who aren't vaxed be able to post on here? Asking for a friend-)

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Will people who aren't vaxed be able to post on here? Asking for a friend-)
No you need to be vaccinated to have an opinion! Get with the times...

[Obba]

What trickery is this....?

A QR Code for International Travel...!!

The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age today, Wednesday, are running with a story on the lines of;

If you are vaccinated and you are inked with your MyGov account, you (we), can fly international.

It's behind a Paywall (for me anyway), so I have no idea as to when this will happen or any nitty gritty details.

Maybe this is a ray of hope?

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/cabinet-backs-qr-code-vaccine-certificates-for-travel-amid-party-room-disagreement-20210803-p58fda.html

[Australopithecus]

The story covers the fledgling technological possibilities and that national cabinet is aiming to implement a plan for such proof of vaccination for quarantine free international travel. The story goes on to say that a few of the usual Lib Nat suspects are against making it a requirement for domestic travel, or at all elsewhere.

If such a scheme can work, you can bet that a couple of state Premiers will mandate it, meaning that it will become a defacto requirement.

The digital wallet technology is based on an ICAO development, and the government has already received help from Apple and Google to add such a proof of vax to their phone wallet apps.

[43Inches]

All of this vaccine "privileges" means nothing as the vaccines are proven not to stop infection and spread of the virus. They do however significantly slow the rate of serious symptoms and death. The real message should be, "get vaccinated because in 6 months we will open up, if you don't have protection, too bad so sad..." If you are stupid enough to be a vaccine denier, you will be Darwinised for the greater community.

[mattyj]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement

some new science for you vaccine sycophants.
if you aren’t familiar with this term, you will be soon.

[Gnadenburg]

I've asked the reluctant vaxers before and was ignored.

1) Did COVID cost you your job?

2) Have you taken money from the Government?

OK, here's a third question.

3) Will you vaccinate if it is a requirement to keep your flying position?

[Gnadenburg]

A fair assessment of the reality of Covid IMHO.
CDC latest info states the fact that many vaccinated people are still carrying viral loads similar to unvaccinated and are able to transmit the virus.
If anyone doubts the CDC just look at real world data from Singapore,Israel,or the UK.
However the vaccines are still considered to be very effective at reducing serious disease.
So any argument about saving everyone from becoming infected by vaccinating is rapidly loosing credibility.
Ultimately for those that seek maximum disease protection go and get jabbed but don’t push that on others for the sake of humanity because it simply doesn’t work that way. At least according to the CDC and real world experience.
Best of luck to all.

However, when Australia opens up and open up it must do eventually, an unvaccinated society will see strain and possible paralysis in areas of the medical system and economy. I can't see sensible alternatives to vaccinating society as quickly and as best you can and then opening up the borders gradually.

[Australopithecus]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibody-dependent_enhancement

some new science for you vaccine sycophants.
if you aren’t familiar with this term, you will be soon.

Wikipedia. Pfffft! Why do we even have The Lancet, or The New England Journal of Medicine, to name but two of the many actual sober medical journals. But at least Wiki does attach this caution:

This article needs more medical references (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)) for verification (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability) or relies too heavily on primary sources (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Primary_sources). (December 2020)

[KRviator]

I've asked the reluctant vaxers before and was ignored.

1) Did COVID cost you your job?
2) Have you taken money from the Government?

OK, here's a third question.

3) Will you vaccinate if it is a requirement to keep your flying position?I do believe I answered it, but it may not have been you that asked, so...
1: In all but name. I have a job, but I cannot get there, and am on indefinite LWOP until McGoose reopens the border. Probably upto $120K in the hole so far since February 2020..
2: No. I have asked, and been told I am ineligible - despite 11 months off work last year and it'll probably be at least 6-7 months this year. Not entitled to so much as a brass razoo from anyone apparently.
3: Yes, though under protest. I am yet to be convinced even 80% of all eligible citizens vaccinated will be sufficient for McGoose to reopen WA to interstate travelers, however have scheduled our Pfizer vaccinations for later this week as I don't think we have a choice! We either reach the target as a nation, or we might as well subdivide Australia into the separate states for the foreseeable future.

[Fonz121]

So many people ragging on the Gladys approach. If they do go ahead with their plan to loosen restrictions without eliminating community transmission, it'll be a huge step moving forward in this country.

[43Inches]

A fair assessment of the reality of Covid IMHO.
CDC latest info states the fact that many vaccinated people are still carrying viral loads similar to unvaccinated and are able to transmit the virus.
If anyone doubts the CDC just look at real world data from Singapore,Israel,or the UK.
However the vaccines are still considered to be very effective at reducing serious disease.
So any argument about saving everyone from becoming infected by vaccinating is rapidly loosing credibility.
Ultimately for those that seek maximum disease protection go and get jabbed but don’t push that on others for the sake of humanity because it simply doesn’t work that way. At least according to the CDC and real world experience.
Best of luck to all.

I have absolutely no issue with people choosing not to get vaccinated, however in a years time when you are suffering the after effects of the virus because the world moved on without you, please accept my tsk tsk... Similar to when a sad mother mourns the loss of her child to whooping cough, cause she thought the vaccine caused autism, sad but that gene pool probably was too dumb to survive. There is no need to sacrifice you or your loved ones, a simple jab will solve this, therefore it is not a sacrifice as the loss of life is avoidable, you just became a proof of Darwinism, by proving you were not intelligent enough to survive in the real world. A sacrifice would be a soldier giving their life to defend your freedoms.

[StudentInDebt]

I do believe I answered it, but it may not have been you that asked, so...
1: In all but name. I have a job, but I cannot get there, and am on indefinite LWOP until McGoose reopens the border. Probably upto $120K in the hole so far since February 2020..
2: No. I have asked, and been told I am ineligible - despite 11 months off work last year and it'll probably be at least 6-7 months this year. Not entitled to so much as a brass razoo from anyone apparently.
3: Yes, though under protest. I am yet to be convinced even 80% of all eligible citizens vaccinated will be sufficient for McGoose to reopen WA to interstate travelers, however have scheduled our Pfizer vaccinations for later this week as I don't think we have a choice! We either reach the target as a nation, or we might as well subdivide Australia into the separate states for the foreseeable future.Your job is in WA but you live in a state that is currently restricted under the border directions? Was there a pressing reason why, when there were no border restrictions earlier in the year, you didn’t move to WA?

[KRviator]

Your job is in WA but you live in a state that is currently restricted under the border directions? Was there a pressing reason why, when there were no border restrictions earlier in the year, you didn’t move to WA?Yes.

Extra characters to satisfy the forum software...

[Potsie Weber]

So many people ragging on the Gladys approach. If they do go ahead with their plan to loosen restrictions without eliminating community transmission, it'll be a huge step moving forward in this country.

NSW will be the litmus test of whether suppression rather than elimination is possible, but it will be on its own. The other states are not going to budge on elimination for a very long time. I would guarantee that even if WA had 80% of 16+ vaccinated, McClown will lockdown at a single case in the community. He will shut the border to any state that has any community transmission. The population have been scared into total submission.

We are going to be a divided hermit nation for years to come.

[43Inches]

We are going to be a divided hermit nation for years to come.

I guarantee you this will be the last year of full lockdowns. Even WA will drop full restrictions either by end year or early next year. Vaccine targets are on track for mid summer and then Australians with or without vax will have no choice in whether they get exposed. The only reason for further lockdowns will be a more deadly strain resistant to vaccines. NSW is proving that vaxed population are dieing less if at all and as that proof grows, like the UK we will open.

[SOPS]

I guarantee you this will be the last year of full lockdowns. Even WA will drop full restrictions either by end year or early next year. Vaccine targets are on track for mid summer and then Australians with or without vax will have no choice in whether they get exposed. The only reason for further lockdowns will be a more deadly strain resistant to vaccines. NSW is proving that vaxed population are dieing less if at all and as that proof grows, like the UK we will open.

For those of you that may not of heard it, the Western Australian Commissioner of Police was just interviewed on the radio. What he said.. without using these exact words.. but what he meant was…. Do not leave WA. I could shut us down to the rest of Australia in the next few hours, and you may not be allowed to come back to the state for months. He was warning people .. don’t go anywhere.

If you think lockdowns are over…. Think again.

[Xeptu]

I have absolutely no issue with people choosing not to get vaccinated, however in a years time when you are suffering the after effects of the virus because the world moved on without you, please accept my tsk tsk... Similar to when a sad mother mourns the loss of her child to whooping cough, cause she thought the vaccine caused autism, sad but that gene pool probably was too dumb to survive. There is no need to sacrifice you or your loved ones, a simple jab will solve this, therefore it is not a sacrifice as the loss of life is avoidable, you just became a proof of Darwinism, by proving you were not intelligent enough to survive in the real world. A sacrifice would be a soldier giving their life to defend your freedoms.

Whilst I agree with the intent of your post, some of your points are flawed.
1. Suffering the effects of the virus because the world moved on.
We still don't know for sure yet if that will still be the case even though you were vaccinated.
2. A simple jab will solve this.
We don't know that yet, it may be the long term effect of the vaccine could be just as bad as the disease.
3. A soldier giving their life to defend your freedoms.
Historically both sides have that exact same argument, they can't both be right.

[Xeptu]

We are going to be a divided hermit nation for years to come.

A fair assessment, which side will it be.

[KRviator]

For those of you that may not of heard it, the Western Australian Commissioner of Police was just interviewed on the radio. What he said.. without using these exact words.. but what he meant was…. Do not leave WA. I could shut us down to the rest of Australia in the next few hours, and you may not be allowed to come back to the state for months. He was warning people .. don’t go anywhere.

If you think lockdowns are over…. Think again.And there you have it, straight from the horses mouth, or close enough. We are One Nation, Under God....

Oh, wait...Wrong country...:ugh:

[common cents]

[QUOTE=43Inches;11089442]I have absolutely no issue with people choosing not to get vaccinated, .........

You should have left it at that.
The rest of your dummies versus smarties post is highly opinionated waffle of dubious value.

[43Inches]

1. Suffering the effects of the virus because the world moved on.
We still don't know for sure yet if that will still be the case even though you were vaccinated.

Most of the long term effects are caused by scarring or secondary infections caused by the virus. The vaccine is proven to reduce both these effects, so therefore yes, vaccines will heavily reduce your risk of long term effects.

2. A simple jab will solve this.
We don't know that yet, it may be the long term effect of the vaccine could be just as bad as the disease.

Nothing has developed yet as of 6 months of mass inoculations world wide except TTS and mild short term aftereffects. The science is fairly sound in how the Vaccines work and their long term effects, even to the point that vaccination whilst pregnant is allowed. The later being a significant pointer that they are very confident that no 3 eyed and 10 legged babies are coming.

3. A soldier giving their life to defend your freedoms.
Historically both sides have that exact same argument, they can't both be right.


The sacrifice is made by both sides, both "sacrifice" the lives of soldiers to progress their own needs, so for some greater good, whether its in defense or aggression. The point is a Sacrifice is a choice you make that is final and binding to the cause. You can't sacrifice money or income for instance, that is a miss-use of the idea. You can exchange income/cash for something, but you can get that same cash back later should you wish. A person dies and you cant get that exact person back, their thoughts, memory or future deeds are erased at that point, but if they died for no reason it's also not a sacrifice. Same as most living things, so you could sacrifice an animal for the good of the herd if its loss had some point or improved (or perceived improved) life for the rest. Therefore I don't see isolating, or dieing of covid as a sacrifice, both are preventable and not necessary with the right path and controls.

You should have left it at that.
The rest of your dummies versus smarties post is highly opinionated waffle of dubious value.

And this just proves your intelligence does not rise above the insult capabilities of a 5 year old. And offers no counter argument to prove you have the ability to comprehend or debate what is being said here.

[IXUXU]

Wikipedia. Pfffft! Why do we even have The Lancet, or The New England Journal of Medicine, to name but two of the many actual sober medical journals. But at least Wiki does attach this caution:

This article needs more medical references (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)) for verification (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability) or relies too heavily on primary sources (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Primary_sources). (December 2020)

ADE is not new science but kind of Biology 101 actually and something that will be considered and watched through all the process of design, development and (full) approval of any vaccine.
There you go, a study about subjects participating in trials being properly informed about risks ;
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33113270/ (http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33113270/)

Cheers.

[Xeptu]

The sacrifice is made by both sides, both "sacrifice" the lives of soldiers to progress their own needs

Which has nothing to do with "your freedoms"

As for the rest of your response, like I said, we don't know that yet.

[43Inches]

Which has nothing to do with "your freedoms"

Ah ok, that was just an example, yes, not the overall ideal. I mean an opposition soldier could sacrifice his life so his civilisation could conquer and oppress yours. I was more referring to laying down or be willing to die for your ideal.

[SOPS]

It’s going really well in NSW, isn’t it. Glad to see Bunnings is still open for all that essential DIY. And a man in his 20s has just died from it…, looks like us oldies are the only ones that can die from it.

[Xeptu]

It’s going really well in NSW, isn’t it. Glad to see Bunnings is still open for all that essential DIY. And a man in his 20s has just died from it…, looks like us oldies are the only ones that can die from it.

Not any more, we're all vaccinated :)

[PoppaJo]

It’s going really well in NSW, isn’t it. Glad to see Bunnings is still open for all that essential DIY. And a man in his 20s has just died from it…, looks like us oldies are the only ones that can die from it.
Day after Day she keeps saying Delta is like no other. Meanwhile Genie back in the bottle again down in Dan land today.

Newcastle is on the verge of falling over now. Should have protected the regions, but didn’t. She is failing the people of the regions here.

[Cirressna]

I find it strange the sudden death of a 20 something year old from covid is being referred to the coroner.

From the NSW coroner:

Deaths as a result COVID-19 are regarded as a natural cause death and therefore it is expected that in most cases a Death Certificate will be issued and the death is not reported to the Coroner. It is however anticipated that there will be instances where a deceased has not been diagnosed with carrying the virus and may have displayed symptoms of COVID-19 and a Death Certificate is not issued. As with any case where a Death Certificate is not issued, the death is reportable to the Coroner.
Link (https://mnclhd.health.nsw.gov.au/i/covid-19/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/NSWHP-Coroners-COVID-19-Fact-Sheet-2020-1.pdf)

What could the reasoning behind it be? My inner conspiracy theorist is screaming, 'died with covid, not of it'

*Prepares for head to be bitten off*

[43Inches]

I find it strange the sudden death of a 20 something year old from covid is being referred to the coroner.


I don't see anything wrong with being skeptical about why the coroner should get involved. It may well be because of the issues around covid they want to be certain of the cause. The only thing that could be gained is that he was proved to have died of some other cause, that is not covid. It would not 'be in the governments favor' to prove it not. As this would be used as argument against vaccination of that group and convolute the situation. There is always the possibility that someone has done something criminal here or malpractice and blamed covid.

[Foxxster]

The 20 year old was covid positive and unvaccinated. He was in home quarantine and being seen daily be medical staff, I believe a nurse. I imagine the coroner is being involved due to what must have been a significant, rapid deterioration in their condition and because they were under medical care.

[t_cas]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8024622/pdf/fmed-08-662513.pdf

This was released in March 2021.


“with the implications for long-COVID post SARS-CoV-2 also considered.”

[SandyPalms]

I thought all deaths where the deceased is alone at the time of death are referred to the coroner? I don't see why this is odd at all.

[43Inches]

I thought all deaths where the deceased is alone at the time of death are referred to the coroner? I don't see why this is odd at all.

Pretty sure that depends on which state you are in, NSW I have no idea. But from the link it seems that if no one attends to produce a death certificate that's most likely the case. However this individual has already been attributed a death cause by the look of it. Just reading the news it says un-vaccinated and one of two in the house, the 2nd has been moved to hospital.

[common cents]

Police will always attend when a death occurs at home. If a death certificate is issued and presented then barring any other suspicious circumstances the coroner will not become involved.
Since the cause of this death is clearly being investigated, then perhaps NSW Health reporting it as a Covid death at this time is inappropriate.

[rattman]

I thought all deaths where the deceased is alone at the time of death are referred to the coroner? I don't see why this is odd at all.

He wasn't alone, he was in quarantine with someone else, who has now been admitted into hospital care but yes not surprised this has gone to coroner

[mattyj]

It doesn’t matter what “the science” says or what the unelected health bureaucrats say..our individual rights are not theirs to take away or alter. We are allowed to leave our houses, see who we want and move around freely. We are entitled to refuse a medical treatment without duress. Anything else is application of tyranny and must be resisted with maximum prejudice.

[AerialPerspective]

And there you have it, straight from the horses mouth, or close enough. We are One Nation, Under God....

Oh, wait...Wrong country...:ugh:

Actually, the US wasn't "One Nation Under God" until the late 1950s. The original 'Pledge of Allegiance, where that phrase has been inserted said for the prior 100+ years ".... one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all..."

Similarly, the Canadian Anthem (although it wasn't at the time) never said "...god keep our land, glorious and free..." but "Oh Canada, glorious and free..."

These bows to religious sycophancy seem to have sprung from the fervour surrounding the McCarthy era in the US (an attempt to distance themselves from the 'godless communists'). We now know that McCarthy effectively committed suicide having succumb to alcoholism to the point of apparently suffering liver failure and hepatitis.

I therefore view those 'god' statements the same as the vacuous contribution of the sad little fraction of a human that inspired them.

[AerialPerspective]

I guarantee you this will be the last year of full lockdowns. Even WA will drop full restrictions either by end year or early next year. Vaccine targets are on track for mid summer and then Australians with or without vax will have no choice in whether they get exposed. The only reason for further lockdowns will be a more deadly strain resistant to vaccines. NSW is proving that vaxed population are dieing less if at all and as that proof grows, like the UK we will open.

"A divide hermit nation for years to come".

Yeh. I'll put that in the same book of predictions as threads still extant on pprune from about 10 years ago, lauding the unrelenting genius of a man who's initials are JB, who was going to single-handedly build VA to the point where it destroyed the opposition. It certainly is interesting going back and reading all those comments from back then through the filter of the financial disaster that was left in said CEO's wake.

But hey, he got an AO for 'services to aviation' so I guess they must have all been correct.

Point being, what we predict flagrantly today, usually ends up not coming to fruition. Nothing is that bad and no one is that good.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it.......

[Xeptu]

It doesn’t matter what “the science” says or what the unelected health bureaucrats say..our individual rights are not theirs to take away or alter. We are allowed to leave our houses, see who we want and move around freely. We are entitled to refuse a medical treatment without duress. Anything else is application of tyranny and must be resisted with maximum prejudice.

Well actually NO! our unelected health bureaucrats don't enact anything, our elected leaders do that and yes they do have the right, as given to them by we the people. Any act of tyranny by you is against us the people. But I agree with resist with maximum prejudice.

[WingNut60]

WA will be going back into lockdown! Thanks Mcclown!
Jumped the gun a bit their Zeta.

But if we had gone into lockdown, in what way would it have been McGowan's fault, as compared to someone else's?

[43Inches]

It doesn’t matter what “the science” says or what the unelected health bureaucrats say..our individual rights are not theirs to take away or alter. We are allowed to leave our houses, see who we want and move around freely. We are entitled to refuse a medical treatment without duress. Anything else is application of tyranny and must be resisted with maximum prejudice.


https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/freedom-movement?_ga=2.10238134.26371512.1628056931-1476448588.1628056931

This is the link to your rights, Article 12 agrees with you until item 3;

"The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant."

Unfortunately as soon as a public health order is issued, you can have your freedom of movement rights revoked. So yes, science and bureaucrats can take your movement rights away.

WRT to item 4, the government is not stopping Australians from returning, just making it very expensive and take time, which is into the grey abyss.

If that's Tyranny well its time to climb on ya horse and ride those redcoats out of town.

[mattyj]

With regards to God and his place in America it was day one in the Declaration of Independence, and the purpose of leaving Europe by the pilgrims was for reasons of religious freedom among others..God and the creator were mentioned several times. The importance is that rights given by God cannot be taken away by mere men;


“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”

one of the greatest documents ever written

[Green.Dot]

Ok then…..

[Chronic Snoozer]

With regards to God and his place in America it was day one in the Declaration of Independence, and the purpose of leaving Europe by the pilgrims was for reasons of religious freedom among others..God and the creator were mentioned several times. The importance is that rights given by God cannot be taken away by mere men;


Speaking of God.....

One of the greatest films ever made.

[SOPS]

Talk about thread drift!!!!

[Australopithecus]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8024622/pdf/fmed-08-662513.pdf

This was released in March 2021.


“with the implications for long-COVID post SARS-CoV-2 also considered.”

The paper raises questions, but then mentions SARS-CoV (the SARS virus) and long covid in the same sentence. That ambiguity is more than a minor annoyance. If SARS-CoV2 does indeed behave like Dengue then the long term outlook is indeed bleak. However deciding to not be vaccinated based on avoiding a theoretical exploited immune response ignores the present danger the disease presents. The possibility of an ADE exploit should appear subsequently whether a person has been vaccinated or infected. If in fact the long term danger of a subsequent re-infection is the same, then at least the vaccine doesn’t lead to a potentially fatal pneumonia.

[mattyj]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/15768826/aussie-man-heart-attack-cops-arrest-mask-outside/

is there an intelligence test to be a Queensland cop?

[DirectAnywhere]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/15768826/aussie-man-heart-attack-cops-arrest-mask-outside/

is there an intelligence test to be a Queensland cop?

Not if Peter Dutton could get in.

[patty50]

I find it strange the sudden death of a 20 something year old from covid is being referred to the coroner.

What could the reasoning behind it be? My inner conspiracy theorist is screaming, 'died with covid, not of it'

*Prepares for head to be bitten off*


Very unusual for apparently healthy people in their 20s to drop dead. There is the question of should he have been under closer medical care and would his death have been preventable.

Seems probable he had an undiagnosed heart condition and the COVID tipped him over the edge.

The bloke in his 20s who died in Melbourne around this time last year was also referred to the coroner.

[Foxxster]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/15768826/aussie-man-heart-attack-cops-arrest-mask-outside/

is there an intelligence test to be a Queensland cop?


well there obviously isn’t to be a Queensland Labor politician or chief health officer.

[chookcooker]

Very unusual for apparently healthy people in their 20s to drop dead. There is the question of should he have been under closer medical care and would his death have been preventable.

Seems probable he had an undiagnosed heart condition and the COVID tipped him over the edge.

The bloke in his 20s who died in Melbourne around this time last year was also referred to the coroner.

preventable??
absolutely thanks to Pfizer and Astra Zeneca but hey.

[Potsie Weber]

Very unusual for apparently healthy people in their 20s to drop dead. There is the question of should he have been under closer medical care and would his death have been preventable.

Seems probable he had an undiagnosed heart condition and the COVID tipped him over the edge.

The bloke in his 20s who died in Melbourne around this time last year was also referred to the coroner.

Sudden Cardiac Death in under 35s in Australia is about 1 in 30000. Not as unusual as you might think.

[43Inches]

Sudden Cardiac Death in under 35s in Australia is about 1 in 30000. Not as unusual as you might think.

I was thinking that very thing when I read the part about him feeling tired, then not waking up. Covid is known to cause cardiac Myocarditis and heart failure can manifest as just fatigue at first.

preventable??
absolutely thanks to Pfizer and Astra Zeneca but hey.

Not entirely true, Pfizer is an mRNA Vaccine which has also caused Myocarditis in young males particularly under 25,mostly on the second dose, although the rate is 6 times less than that of actual covid caused heart problems. If this guy was susceptible to heart issues, the Pfizer vaccine may have also killed him.

[AerialPerspective]

With regards to God and his place in America it was day one in the Declaration of Independence, and the purpose of leaving Europe by the pilgrims was for reasons of religious freedom among others..God and the creator were mentioned several times. The importance is that rights given by God cannot be taken away by mere men;


“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”

one of the greatest documents ever written

I agree it was one of the greatest documents but it was nothing more than a justification for a war. The people who were involved in its authorship were (not only Thomas Jefferson) John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and Jefferson. All of them despised religion and Christianity in particular. One of them stated that this would be a better world if Christianity were not part of it, another declared lighthouses more useful than Churches.

The Australian Constitution (heavily based on the US, as the UK has never had a written and entrenched constitution and is not a federation as the Commonwealth of Australia and the United States ARE) only mentions 'god' in the preamble which is not specifically part of the Constitution but is part of the covering clauses. It is well known amongst those who have studied these things that it is ONLY there as a trade-off to the token religious whacko on the drafting committee, so as to allow the inclusion of s116 which dis-establishes religion.

The Declaration of Independence, whilst a phenomenal document, is irrelevant when it comes to the actual Government of the United States, which is under the Constitution of the United States, which does not mention god, not even once, other than in the First Amendment (by way of using the word 'religion') which declares "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of any religion..." etc.

Our own s116 practically mirrors that language as does much of the Australian Constitution.

It is clear, as the Treaty of Tripoli declared, that the "the Government of the United States is in no way based on the Christian religion..."

Your effort to 'graft' god and Christianity onto Western Society is vacuous. Our democratic principles and our law finds its origins in ancient Rome, Greek Philosophy and other sources. The fact we have a few laws which by coincidence along with the 'ten commandments' (depending on which version of the several on offer you choose from 'God's Big Book of Bad Ideas' - which also insists I subject both my daughters to death by stoning if they are not virgins when they wed) is nothing more than coincidence. The notion that people should not kill each other or steal were both notions evident in every society before Christianity was made up.

It really annoys me that people try to posit this theory that nothing was good before the fictitious Jesus allegedly existed (and I say 'fictitious' because there are numerous 'gods' before him that all supposedly rose on the summer solstice, walked on water, turned water into wine and died and resurrected. I mean do you really think people are that gullible), multiple minuscule details details available of everyone from Roman Prefects to the most minor officials are recorded at that time but the bloke who allegedly walked on water, turned water to wine and cured the sick, nada, zilch.

The US Founding Fathers knew they had to capture the entire population so they included some language to that effect but omitted much which would 'smack of the pulpit' too much.

They started the trend which has resulted in the world being the most peaceful it's been in a hundred years - not through Christianity but through the proliferation of SECULARISM, pioneered by the United States.

So, good effort but no cigar.

[Xeptu]

A bit of a thread drift, but it's fascinating the whole concept of the Gods in a post apocalyptic world when future generations refer to our hocus pocus stories when we were gods in flying machines that carried hundreds of people to distant lands that don't exist. How many generations would it take, before there just fanciful bedtime stories.

[43Inches]

The Australian Constitution (heavily based on the US, as the UK has never had a written and entrenched constitution and is not a federation as the Commonwealth of Australia and the United States ARE) only mentions 'god' in the preamble which is not specifically part of the Constitution but is part of the covering clauses. It is well known amongst those who have studied these things that it is ONLY there as a trade-off to the token religious whacko on the drafting committee, so as to allow the inclusion of s116 which dis-establishes religion.

Also its important to note the differences so that you don't quote US rights when they don't apply in Australia. Such as free speech, which is worded differently, more in the right to hold an opinion. Also quite interesting that Australia chose to opt out of banning domestic use of racial hate speech and propaganda with regards to rights, although there are laws that cover hate speech.

Federation was mostly pushed for by businesses wanting to conduct cross border trade, as pre-1901 you needed to pass border control to pass between colonies such as NSW and Vic, including tariffs and everything you'd see between two different nations. The idea it was something done for the greater population alone is misleading. Victoria and Melbourne in particular had become wealthy and also xenophobic, they didn't want foreigners but they wanted trade to increase wealth and luxury goods especially from within Australia being of mostly all the same ancestry. The businesses also played on fears of invasion by nations such as Russia/France/Germany post Crimean war as Australia was barely protected by itinerant RN Vessels and had no significant navy or army of its own. So the reasoning behind Federation in Australia and Independence of the USA is a vastly different story with a very different set of 'founding fathers'.

It's sad that most Australians have more idea about the US system and history then what happened in the creation of Australia. Especially in the lead up to Federation, everyone knows there was a gold rush, but very few know the story and lessons to be learnt from what happened in Melbourne post gold rush as well. There are some good historical lessons about shunning the world and thinking you can live off limited wealth for ever.

[Chronic Snoozer]

This place really is PPRunNeapedia.

[machtuk]

Come on guys back to pages & pages of endless stats to bluff the sheeple -) I enjoy reading the numbers waiting to die of this wildly infectious disease that will kill you, well according to the lunatic Andrews that is!-)

[Foxxster]

Well, breaking news

6 cases in Victoria overnight

Queensland will not re open on Sunday, not officially announced but someone from the AMA in qld said that this morning so I imagine at the qld govt press conference this morning with the goose and quack it will be announced.

also maybe another Victorian lockdown with those 6 cases. That’s me guessing.

4 cases of covid confirmed in two schools near Newcastle also. Students that is. 3 siblings at one school. So it is spreading…

[WingNut60]

Come on guys back to pages & pages of endless stats to bluff the sheeple -).......

Five!

That's the number of my friends or close acquaintances who have died FROM NOT WITH Covid-19 since the middle of June.
It's not just stats, Dick.

[Xeptu]

Five!

That's the number of my friends or close acquaintances who have died FROM NOT WITH Covid-19 since the middle of June.
It's not just stats, Dick.

It's bad, real bad over there; There is a rising incidence in patients appearing to be doing ok with relatively mild symptoms, then after a week or two suddenly deteriorating, cough, vomit, bleed, die. That's new, do we have a breakout strain on our hands.

[mattyj]

All your health bureaucrats do is use statistics to allocate resources all day..at least prior to Covid.

the symptoms you’re describing are typical for ADE or VADE.

[chookcooker]

Not entirely true, Pfizer is an mRNA Vaccine which has also caused Myocarditis in young males particularly under 25,mostly on the second dose, although the rate is 6 times less than that of actual covid caused heart problems. If this guy was susceptible to heart issues, the Pfizer vaccine may have also killed him.
“The United States’ Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had received 1,226 reports of myocarditis following 296 million doses of mRNA vaccines (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7027e2.htm)administered up to June 11. This equates to a risk of roughly one in 240,000 doses. These cases were mostly in young men and predominantly occurred after the second dose.

Independently from vaccines, myocarditis occurs in roughly 23 per 100,000 people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904878/)worldwide per year (we don’t have reliable figures for pericarditis). This shows us there’s a much lower risk from vaccination than exists in the population generally.”

1:240,000 chance of developing myocarditis from Pfizer. Almost all lived.

Im comfortable with my statement.

[43Inches]

It's bad, real bad over there; There is a rising incidence in patients appearing to be doing ok with relatively mild symptoms, then after a week or two suddenly deteriorating, cough, vomit, bleed, die. That's new, do we have a breakout strain on our hands.

Well we havn't really finished first wave antics yet, the media have been calling the resurgences as 2nd/3rd waves, these are just lockdowns and re spreading of the similar strains of the original virus. Delta has the same MO as the original, just spreads faster. These are just small issues compared to if the virus adapts and decides it wants to become aggressive and attack more vigorously to survive. During the Spanish flu the true second wave was far more deadly and vigorous and attacked the young and healthy. Again the downside of letting a nasty virus run free, it allows greater chance for both worse or less deadly strains to mutate. The more spread the more chance of mutation for good or bad, then you leave it up to lady luck for survival.

Come on guys back to pages & pages of endless stats to bluff the sheeple -) I enjoy reading the numbers waiting to die of this wildly infectious disease that will kill you, well according to the lunatic Andrews that is!-)

I know you probably don't care, but that statement just rubs **** in the face of the families that have actually lost loved ones through no fault of their own.

“The United States’ Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had received 1,226 reports of myocarditis following 296 million doses of mRNA vaccines (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7027e2.htm)administered up to June 11. This equates to a risk of roughly one in 240,000 doses. These cases were mostly in young men and predominantly occurred after the second dose.

Not saying in regard to the general public, just to this particular individual. The chance of Myocarditis is very low, however this guy may have had an underlying condition making him susceptible to it, therefore both covid and the Pfizer vaccine could trigger a problem or death in this one individual. A recent observational study focused on 12-18 years olds in particular found a much greater proportion had Myocarditis after second dose, also underlying from even mild covid exposure. Not necessarily causing death, but there is definitely something in that male age group in the USA that makes them far more likely to get it.

Myocarditis is the inflammation of the heart muscle, it swells and causes complications. If it becomes acute then similar to a heart attack can leave scarring on the heart, which may not have immediate consequences but will reduce the lifespan of the individual and complications as the heart ages. Basically you can lose large parts of your heart muscle to scaring and still live, however your maximum physical activity reduces and continues to reduce as the heart ages. This in turn means you are more susceptible to anything that stresses the body.

[Xeptu]

All your health bureaucrats do is use statistics to allocate resources all day..at least prior to Covid.

the symptoms you’re describing are typical for ADE or VADE.

I don't know much about it myself but i ran it past the girls who were in VIC, volunteering, pre-vaccine and delta wasn't in the country at the time.
She says, he's quite right (matty) about ADE but that's not supposed to happen with either Covid-19 or it's vaccines, she didn't see any of those symptoms at the time.

[Foxxster]

262 cases, 5 deaths.

one week lockdown in the Hunter and upper Hunter area.

[mattyj]

VADE has been the feature of ALL previous coronavirus vaccine attempts that have seen them scrubbed. Not saying it’s happening with these vaccines but anyone who has been vaccinated now had better hope not

[Xeptu]

“The United States’ Centres for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had received 1,226 reports of myocarditis following 296 million doses of mRNA vaccines (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7027e2.htm)administered up to June 11. This equates to a risk of roughly one in 240,000 doses. These cases were mostly in young men and predominantly occurred after the second

Well, I'm much happier now I took my chances with the risk of blood clots with Astra Zeneca.

[mattyj]

Myocarditis may be rare but it’s common enough for the FDA to put a warning on the label of Pfizer and Modernas vaccines:

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/26/fda-adds-warning-of-rare-heart-inflammation-to-pfizer-moderna-vaccines.html

[SOPS]

Gladys is going to lock down some regional areas from 5pm. She should have put road blocks around Sydney from the start. But this softly softly approach she has, is just letting it get out of control.

[Xeptu]

ADE can occur from any vaccine. ADE occurred in vaccines trialled for both H1N1 and H5N1. I believe it was H1N1 the vaccine trial that was stopped due to the repeated occurrence of ADE.
The serious concern I have regarding these vaccines is the chance of ADE occurring once everyone has been vaccinated. A new strain e.g. "LAMBDA" or any other future strain, comes along and then the person who is vaccinated against covid19 comes into contact with the new strain or even another coronavirus and then succumbs to ADE. I think this is a very real possibility that is being ignored due to political and medical dogma, there are many medical professionals and researchers on bitchute who have spoken about ADE occurring with these vaccines.

I have an even more serious concern. A breakout strain that dwarfs all existing effects of Covid.

[chookcooker]

Not saying in regard to the general public, just to this particular individual. The chance of Myocarditis is very low, however this guy may have had an underlying condition making him susceptible to it, therefore both covid and the Pfizer vaccine could trigger a problem.

Lots of guessing in that statement.
“Independently from vaccines, myocarditis occurs in roughly 23 per 100,000 people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904878/)worldwide per year (we don’t have reliable figures for pericarditis). This shows us there’s a much lower risk from vaccination than exists in the population generally.”

”This included an in-depth review of 145 cases of myocarditis in the European Economic Area”

”In five cases that occurred in the EEA, people died.”
would suggest not.




I’m tipping this poor “particular individual” would have beaten the door down to get him some Pfizer if he had his time again. Especially since almost all cases of vaccine related myocarditis are mild.

Basically you’re saying
IF he had some precondition that MAYBE linked the vaccine to myocarditis, he MIGHT have developed Myocarditis and MIGHt have died from it despite almoast ALL case are mild. Seems like a long shot.
but I guess you’re right. Technically the vaccine might not have saved him. He also might have been struck by a meteorite

[Foxxster]

I have an even more serious concern. A breakout strain that dwarfs all existing effects of Covid.


a very real concern seeing as this WuHu flu appears to be a bio weapon cooked up in the WuHu lab. With a little help from Fauci and others giving US funding.

[MickG0105]

Ever since antibody-dependent enhancement killed two toddlers in RSV vaccine trials in the mid-1960s it has been a front-of-mind consideration for all pharmaceutical companies developing vaccines. Because ADE manifests itself promptly upon a vaccinated host being exposed to infection it is relatively easy to spot; it generally manifests itself very early in the clinical trial process. And it stops the development of a vaccine dead in its tracks.

So far there have been over 4 billion doses of COVID-19 vaccines administered globally; documented cases of ADE is what? I'm not saying that there have been no cases but where's the data?

[43Inches]

From what I've read it popped its head up in early trials of some vaccines on animals. Those vaccine paths were quickly terminated and have nothing to do with current approved vaccines, at least AZ or Pf.

So far to date, there's not evidence of ADE at all in current vaccinations, and yes studies have been conducted as it is a serious question. However there is a slim possibility of say next years strain being different, and that may or may not be an issue depending on who you ask.

[43Inches]

Lots of guessing in that statement.
“Independently from vaccines, myocarditis occurs in roughly 23 per 100,000 people (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904878/)worldwide per year (we don’t have reliable figures for pericarditis). This shows us there’s a much lower risk from vaccination than exists in the population generally.”

Not guessing, just how medicine is, it's not absolute. I'm definitely not anti vax, but just pondering why this case could be different.

In regard to Myocarditis, mild cases would probably not even be known unless you present symptoms. So the difference of numbers between diagnosed and undiagnosed would be very high. The study founded diagnosed acute Myocarditis was found in 0.9% of covid recovered males aged between 12 and 18 and the rate of vaccine related was surmised at 1/6th of that. To diagnose this you would need x-ray, echocardiogram, MRI or such and means the patient would most likely have to display symptoms without being admitted and these procedures are costly if not paid for by the study. ECG could detect abnormal rythym but that's not guaranteed. The younger folk may never know they had a case of this until they get some other issue and find scarring on the heart muscle. A bit of shortness of breath or tiredness whilst already known to be fighting a virus, you could easily over look it.

Last but important point, Myocarditis is a result or reaction to having a virus, so first you have to be in the under 30 group it mostly affects, then have a particular virus that aggravates the heart and then be in the group susceptible to this condition. So the numbers are not going to be huge, you would hope. If they were Covid would be killing young people very efficiently.

[PoppaJo]

Gladys is going to lock down some regional areas from 5pm. She should have put road blocks around Sydney from the start. But this softly softly approach she has, is just letting it get out of control.

Was plenty of good evidence around the ring of steel approach in highly dense regions. Just look at Melbourne and Geelong last year. Sydney/Gong/Hunter areas no different.

[SOPS]

Looks like Victoria will lock down again.

[Green.Dot]

Looks like Victoria will lock down again.

Source? or are you just scaremongering again with glee from the comfort of the lucky state?

[cloudsurfng]

Source? or are you just scaremongering again with glee from the comfort of the lucky state?

the lucky state? Or just the state that does f@&ing nothing and points fingers at others, and claims they ‘managed’ thus well.

[SOPS]

Source? or are you just scaremongering again with glee from the comfort of the lucky state?


No. I read it here.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/lockdown-fears-for-victoria-as-case-numbers-spike/news-story/a94066dabb8b1b4efd54853620d80fd8

And while we are at it, here is an example of why NSW is in so much trouble.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-05/mosque-covid-breach/100348962

[Foxxster]

so the news.com source you provided us is titled-

“Snap 3 day lockdown on the cards for Victoria as cases rise”.

ON THE CARDS is the give away there. It is SPECULATION.

I think you are a tosser. Let’s face it, it doesn’t effect you but for those of us who are constantly living this nightmare it would be good if you can stop contributing to the bullsh!t scaremongering.

Yep, I know the other option is I can just walk away from PPRUNE.

maybe calm down. If you aren’t at least half expecting another lockdown then you probably need to change your thinking.. especially since.

in the days leading up to the lockdown, there was one case recorded on the 14th and two cases reported on the 13th. The fifth lockdown was announced on July 14

and today..Six locally transmitted Covid-19 cases were confirmed on Thursday morning, with three of those infections unlinked, sending contact tracers scrambling.

Two more cases, which have not been included in today’s numbers, were also announced during Thursday’s press conference. This brings the total of new cases to eight.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Just a reminder that personal attacks are not allowed, under the PPRune rules you all agreed to when you signed up.
If you want to attack people please you are very welcome to start your own forum and do it there.
PPRuNe Forums - FAQ: PPRuNe Rules (https://www.pprune.org/faq.php?faq=pprune_rules#faq_pprune_rules_rules)

Any more personal attacks and as per the rules the poster will be banned.

[Transition Layer]

No. I read it here.

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/lockdown-fears-for-victoria-as-case-numbers-spike/news-story/a94066dabb8b1b4efd54853620d80fd8

And while we are at it, here is an example of why NSW is in so much trouble.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-05/mosque-covid-breach/100348962
You do seem to jump on here as soon as the daily news comes out so you can **** can the rest of the country’s performance.

[MelbourneFlyer]

It looks like that Victorian lockdown is happening, could be called this evening and extend until at least Monday.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/schools-closed-thousands-in-isolation-as-health-authorities-probe-three-mystery-cases-20210805-p58fze.html

[minigundiplomat]

It looks like that Victorian lockdown is happening, could be called this evening and extend until at least Monday.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/schools-closed-thousands-in-isolation-as-health-authorities-probe-three-mystery-cases-20210805-p58fze.html

I find these drawn out decisions on lockdowns curious - no doubt the roads to Qld are busy and the flights are full. Last time they locked down Cairns was awash with Vic plates.

[MelbourneFlyer]

And confirmed, Melbourne entering its 6th lockdown, expected to last a week.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/schools-closed-thousands-in-isolation-as-health-authorities-probe-three-mystery-cases-20210805-p58fze.html

[ruprecht]

https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielAndrewsMP/status/1422691719552802816

Just over 24 hours ago…

[Xeptu]

And in other news!

At least 17 wedding quests have been killed after being hit by several bolts of lightning in Bangladesh. The Bride and Groom also sustained injuries along with 14 others.

Just to bolster up those chances of being struck by lightning statistics :)

[machtuk]

So are the serial posters here who support the lunatic Govt happy now Vict is once again being locked up?
This time next year during lockdown #15 I wonder if there will be enough of us left standing able to post? -)

[Xeptu]

So are the serial posters here who support the lunatic Govt happy now Vict is once again being locked up?
This time next year during lockdown #15 I wonder if there will be enough of us left standing able to post? -)

Mate, no-one wants lockdowns, nobody thinks it's funny. But they are necessary, what would u rather have, 7 day lockdown or weeks and months.
It's tough we have all been through them, but what is the alternative, you tell us.

[Torukmacto]

Mate, no-one wants lockdowns, nobody thinks it's funny. But they are necessary, what would u rather have, 7 day lockdown or weeks and months.
It's tough we have all been through them, but what is the alternative, you tell us.

Ahh get everybody vaccinated ? What’s so hard to understand?

[Ladloy]

Mate, no-one wants lockdowns, nobody thinks it's funny. But they are necessary, what would u rather have, 7 day lockdown or weeks and months.
It's tough we have all been through them, but what is the alternative, you tell us.
watch the death rate start to really bite in NSW. It's painful but necessary and no one wants to end up like NSW.

[SOPS]

Tasmania has just closed its border to Victoria.

And if you go to the NT from Greater Melbourne it’s 2 weeks HQ at your own expense.

This is not looking good.

[SHVC]

Australia what a country. FFS these inept premiers and PM all bickering wanting the most air time. I bet another pointless national cabinet will be held tomorrow

[mattyj]

Lockdowns haven’t had any measurable benefit anywhere they were tried..masks neither..why don’t you try doing something else..something that works

[Angle of Attack]

I’m afraid Lockdowns will be around until early next year. I understand it sucks but there’s no point resisting. We are now
experiencing what pretty much every country around the world has found. No single country has controlled Delta, I’m actuallly
embarrassed we thought we could rein it in. Typical arrogant idiots that though we were the best. We lost the chance and now are
about to pay for it big time.

[43Inches]

Lockdowns haven’t had any measurable benefit anywhere they were tried..masks neither..why don’t you try doing something else..something that works

Except everywhere in Australia that is not Sydney and surrounds.

No single country has controlled Delta, I’m actuallly
embarrassed we thought we could rein it in.

Melbourne has beat it down twice, this will be the third, WA has kept it out, as well as SA Tas and NT, and mostly QLD.

Only the state full of halfwits that can't follow simple instructions called NSW is losing it for us. And again a heap of people thinking Sydney is 'all' of Australia.

But at least there has been a few interesting posts proving maybe they should have mental asylums reopened to care for those that can't cope with the real world, especially if Dan makes any announcements.

[SOPS]

Except everywhere in Australia that is not Sydney and surrounds.



Melbourne has beat it down twice, this will be the third, WA has kept it out, as well as SA Tas and NT, and mostly QLD.

Only the state full of halfwits that can't follow simple instructions called NSW is losing it for us. And again a heap of people thinking Sydney is 'all' of Australia.

But at least there has been a few interesting posts proving maybe they should have mental asylums reopened to care for those that can't cope with the real world, especially if Dan makes any announcements.

I posted this link earlier and I doing it again.. how hard is it for these people to follow simple instructions???

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-05/mosque-covid-breach/100348962

[LostWanderer]

I’m afraid Lockdowns will be around until early next year. I understand it sucks but there’s no point resisting. We are now
experiencing what pretty much every country around the world has found. No single country has controlled Delta, I’m actuallly
embarrassed we thought we could rein it in. Typical arrogant idiots that though we were the best. We lost the chance and now are
about to pay for it big time.

Pretty sure I saw it stated by the federal government that lockdowns/border closures, or various levels of them, will very likely be around for a lot longer than early next year unfortunately.

[AerialPerspective]

This is my concern, a breakout strain will most likely result in VADE in the vaccinated. Also no one knows for sure if these strains are a result of the vaccine itself. 87% of all Delta strain patients in Israel are fully vaccinated!
You better hope that VADE does not occur when a breakout strain occurs!

Sorry, but what the hell is 'VADE'....... I've watched and read a lot about COVID and I have never seen that abbreviation. Perhaps consider carefully when using such abbreviations whether or not people will understand what you're on about....

[Turnleft080]

I’m afraid Lockdowns will be around until early next year. I understand it sucks but there’s no point resisting. We are now
experiencing what pretty much every country around the world has found. No single country has controlled Delta, I’m actuallly
embarrassed we thought we could rein it in. Typical arrogant idiots that though we were the best. We lost the chance and now are
about to pay for it big time.
So Dan brought out the same speech. It's better to have a 7 day lockdown than a 3 month lockdown.
We know now a 3 day circuit breaker is effectively a 2 week lockdown. A one week lockdown,
is effectivly a 3 week lockdown. Disregard the WHOs advice that a lockdown is only meant to bend the cure.
The Vic health experts (the best ones in the world) want to eliminate and squash. Ask a 10 yo that.

[PoppaJo]

Elimination is done. The East Coast is stuck with yo-yo lockdowns for the rest of the year and Sydney is done for the year. This will be one of the most miserable places on earth to be in for the next half however the end is not far off folks hang in there.

19 months into this thing. 6 to run.

[AerialPerspective]

So Dan brought out the same speech. It's better to have a 7 day lockdown than a 3 month lockdown.
We know now a 3 day circuit breaker is effectively a 2 week lockdown. A one week lockdown,
is effectivly a 3 week lockdown. Disregard the WHOs advice that a lockdown is only meant to bend the cure.
The Vic health experts (the best ones in the world) want to eliminate and squash. Ask a 10 yo that.

Yes, but on every occasion he's said the period of time and noted it could end earlier or could go longer as the figures are monitored daily and throughout the day.

People are quick to criticize Dan Andrew's but I'd like them to point to one other Premier in this country that has accomplished what they said they would and in his case, at least one major project was ahead of schedule in late 2019 which is why the people of Victoria overwhelmingly re-elected his government at the last State election, only outstripped by the resounding victory of McGowan in WA. The difference between a Honda Civic and the WA Liberal Party is that a Honda Civic has twice as many seats.

[StudentInDebt]

Sorry, but what the hell is 'VADE'....... I've watched and read a lot about COVID and I have never seen that abbreviation. Perhaps consider carefully when using such abbreviations whether or not people will understand what you're on about....Vaccine-Enhanced Disease Enhancement. The latest thing people who have no idea what they are talking about will tell you to convince themselves that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (after finding out about it on their Aunty Doris’ Facebook timeline).

[MickG0105]

Sorry, but what the hell is 'VADE'....... I've watched and read a lot about COVID and I have never seen that abbreviation. Perhaps consider carefully when using such abbreviations whether or not people will understand what you're on about....
Vaccine-associated disease enhancement (VADE), a less commonly used term derived from the more commonly used vaccine-associated enhanced disease (VAED). It's closer to Vader, so possibly chosen as the more "sinister" alternative.

Over 4 billion SARS CoV-2 vaccine doses administered; number of reports of either antibody-dependent enhancement or vaccine-associated disease enhancement?

[patty50]

Only the state full of halfwits that can't follow simple instructions called NSW is losing it for us. And again a heap of people thinking Sydney is 'all' of Australia.



And a heap of people thinking Fairfield is ‘all’ of Sydney.

The media love to show evil unmasked walkers at Cronulla/Bondi/Manly, but it sure isn’t those folks spreading it.

Gladys’ mistake was thinking that all people are as rule abiding as her local constituents. It’s racist to have cops in Fairfield so we stick our head in the sand and hope that if Kerry Chant begs hard enough they’ll finally stay home.

[43Inches]

This is taking a silly turn.

ADE can happen to any antibodies, naturally created or vaccine created.

So this year you could get Covid and next year it lets its mutant cousin in for revenge.

OR

The same could happen with a vaccine.

The main difference is that the vaccine has been made specifically to avoid ADE. ADE is not a new concept, it is understood, and is part of the trials. Any early stage vaccines that showed potential for ADE were scrubbed and the replaced.

Again, this is people reading a topic briefly, assigning it to something that they don't understand. If you really want to know, read in depth why ADE is unlikely, especially in relation to Covid vaccines.

Only a few viruses are capable of taking advantage of ADE anyway, Dengue being one of them as it rotates itself through 4 different strains, which specifically take advantage of antibodies to gain access. If Covid shows to be one of those, get set for some bad times and even more importance on not getting the virus in the first place. Anyone that knows how dengue operates and gets worse with each occurrence would know how that turns out.

[Turnleft080]

We are a victim of our own success. We as an island have kept as much of the virus out by closing borders. All the premiers are
now brain washed and will want zero all the time. Zero is in their DNA. Scomo wants 70% though will the states comply. That is
the question. When 70% is achieved cases will skyrocket, some will still go to hospital, ICU, though will the premiers allow that.
They have no choice to open the whole country, they need to change that DNA from zero to living with it.

[43Inches]

Actually the premiers have been pretty much the same line for over a year now. Lockdowns until vaccinations reach appropriate levels and then good luck. Sydney just played with fire a few days too long and burnt the house down.

[ruprecht]

I thought VADE was LUK’s dad…

[Xeptu]

We are a victim of our own success. We as an island have kept as much of the virus out by closing borders. All the premiers are
now brain washed and will want zero all the time. Zero is in their DNA. Scomo wants 70% though will the states comply. That is
the question. When 70% is achieved cases will skyrocket, some will still go to hospital, ICU, though will the premiers allow that.
They have no choice to open the whole country, they need to change that DNA from zero to living with it.

Well that's not a politicians call is it, that decision is on us the people. We need to have the conversation, it'll be the most watched Q&A session of all time I would think.

Our girls volunteered to help VIC in it's time of need and all of them came home infected, a good many of yours too. Mine are still affected from it, Long Covid they call it.
They can't be vaccinated yet, I don't know enough about it to tell u why, but in any case we have made our decision and I know we're not alone that we cannot be infected a second time,
So we have a very well organised bugout plan should that become necessary. one of the issues was the feeling of walking away from people in need, the ICU is the very last line of defence. My pitch to them to make them feel better is that you can't help anyone if your incapable yourself.
What you have written here in the last few hours gives us confidence our plan is sound and we should'nt worry too much about those that don't care anyway.

[Gnadenburg]

I'm surprised I haven't read of your daughters' noble service in the media? It would be quite a story. And with respect, the story could be slanted toward a sensationalist article which appears to be the flavour of Australia's media and the pandemic.

I truly admire young Aussies giving service. It's so pure and honest though often corrupted by those older and in power. It should be heartbreaking the numbers of veterans taking their own lives for instance.

What do you want? Australia's borders closed for another year? Longer?

[AerialPerspective]

Vaccine-Enhanced Disease Enhancement. The latest thing people who have no idea what they are talking about will tell you to convince themselves that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (after finding out about it on their Aunty Doris’ Facebook timeline).
I googled it but couldn't find a definition so thanks for the reply.

[Xeptu]

Because there was nothing noble about it, they were doing their job, no different to your pilots returning Australians. Have we forgotten already thousands were infected, hundreds died,

We in Australia have been lucky, the numbers are much smaller compared to the UK. all eyes are on the UK to see how that works out. We don't deny there will come a time to open up.

What do I want, absolutely nothing. I would like Australians to be aware that not everything is as it seems, How many of us could tell you how many pilots are still stood down, do they even care. When our politicians (like scomo did) and our CMO's say we are ready, we are prepared for this, that we are not and when that critical moment arrives, that will become painfully obvious.

[43Inches]

Vaccine-Enhanced Disease Enhancement. The latest thing people who have no idea what they are talking about will tell you to convince themselves that the COVID vaccines are dangerous (after finding out about it on their Aunty Doris’ Facebook timeline).

I googled it but couldn't find a definition so thanks for the reply.

Because there is no such thing as VADE, someone added the V to ADE to make it seem like vaccines are causing this (scaremongering) when its just Antibodies in general, whether they be a result of previous infection or vaccine response.

When I mentioned earlier that Australia will open up at years end, this was based on two things.

One, vaccination levels will reach an acceptable point to try this and two; The level of discontent at lockdowns or lockdown fatigue will have reached a point that governments will start to become wary of using this method. Both restlessness and economic factors will push the second point more and more the longer this continues. People do not become accustomed to lack of freedoms, they simmer until burn out, and no government wants to get there. Hence why brits opened up.

This all of course depends on Covid not going nuclear and becoming more deadly, ADE and whatever else nature can muster.

[Cirressna]

Well that's not a politicians call is it, that decision is on us the people. We need to have the conversation, it'll be the most watched Q&A session of all time I would think.

Our girls volunteered to help VIC in it's time of need and all of them came home infected, a good many of yours too. Mine are still affected from it, Long Covid they call it.
They can't be vaccinated yet, I don't know enough about it to tell u why, but in any case we have made our decision and I know we're not alone that we cannot be infected a second time,
So we have a very well organised bugout plan should that become necessary. one of the issues was the feeling of walking away from people in need, the ICU is the very last line of defence. My pitch to them to make them feel better is that you can't help anyone if your incapable yourself.
What you have written here in the last few hours gives us confidence our plan is sound and we should'nt worry too much about those that don't care anyway.


I'm actually really confused about what you're talking about here. Don't know why you're so vague. Your daughters are in the medical field and worked in hospitals on the frontline? They can't be vaccinated even though working on the frontline, why? Bugout plan? What are you on about!?

[Ladloy]

Almost 300 cases in NSW today. What a monumental **** up by the NSW government. All because they were too smug to lock it down earlier.

[Xeptu]

I'm actually really confused about what you're talking about here. Don't know why you're so vague. Your daughters are in the medical field and worked in hospitals on the frontline? They can't be vaccinated even though working on the frontline, why? Bugout plan? What are you on about!?

I didn't think it was all that vague, but if your from northern QLD, I'll assume you weren't all that in touch with what happened in VIC at the time.
I didn't say "My Daughters" somebody else did.
It was in the time before the vaccine.
There are issues around being vaccinated once you have been/are infected. I don't know enough about it myself.
Bugout Plan, we have made the decision not to become infected a second time, vaccinated or not, In other words they won't be staff at all, if and when that time comes.

You can work out for yourself what the likely consequences of that are where there are significant staff numbers having made the same decision.

[YeahNahYeah]

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-says-it-will-lock-in-returning-citizens-who-permanently-live-abroad-20210805-p58gb9.html

Scomo and Hunt are pair of mucking fuppets, what a total pisspoor move.

[43Inches]

There are issues around being vaccinated once you have been/are infected. I don't know enough about it myself.

I don't think there is any issues with vaccination post exposure, however the general restriction is a 3 month wait prior to allow the more vulnerable non exposed to get vaccinated first. Exposure does grant some immunity, but it seems as though it drops off relatively fast WRT covid.

[mattyj]

The first I heard of VADE was listening to the inventor of mRNA technology, Dr Robert Malone who has worked in vaccine development for decades, saying the mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads starting to show up around the world are early hallmarks of VADE..he stressed of course that it’s too early to tell definitively yet.

[compressor stall]

He’s hardly been in step with the broad medical community recently.
That in itself doesn’t mean he’s wrong, but there are enough red flags to treat his claims with a healthy degree of scrutiny and scepticism.

[turbantime]

The first I heard of VADE was listening to the inventor of mRNA technology, Dr Robert Malone who has worked in vaccine development for decades, saying the mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads starting to show up around the world are early hallmarks of VADE..he stressed of course that it’s too early to tell definitively yet.
Except he’s not the ‘inventor’.
https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/3aa2eefd
And spare me the ‘who fact checks the fact checkers’ retort that seems to be the only line conspiracy theorists are able to conjure up.

[dr dre]

The first I heard of VADE was listening to the inventor of mRNA technology, Dr Robert Malone who has worked in vaccine development for decades, saying the mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads starting to show up around the world are early hallmarks of VADE..he stressed of course that it’s too early to tell definitively yet.

Malone wasn’t the inventor of mRNA, as he claims, merely worked on the project, the credit for “inventing mRNA” technology is given to others. He is seen in the scientific community as an outlier and a quack who has spread anti-vax misinformation. Either way his claims about ADE - Antibody Dependent Enhancement - are misleading and not backed by evidence:

COVID-19 vaccines effectively prevent severe disease; haven’t shown signs of antibody-dependent enhancement as claimed by Robert Malone (https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/covid-19-vaccines-effectively-prevent-severe-disease-havent-shown-signs-of-antibody-dependent-enhancement-as-claimed-by-robert-malone/)

But the most damning critique is where did he go to make these claims? The podcast of Steve Bannon, the Trump boosting conspiracy troll.

[MickG0105]

..., Dr Robert Malone who has worked in vaccine development for decades, saying the mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads starting to show up around the world ...
Where is the reporting of these "mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads"?

[Australopithecus]

I have another Wiki reference for this discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

[compressor stall]

Where is the reporting of these "mRNA vaccinated patients with huge viral loads"?
The use of the word "huge" is probably just a hyperbole overcome by cognitive lassitude.

What the not yet peer reviewed studies show are that in communities with very high cases of Delta, vaccinated people who have had breakthrough infections of Delta exhibit similar viral loads to unvaccinated people. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

Interesting, but nothing overly against the flow in that I'd say. If you get infected (and the chances are very low) you can infect others. Might be more transmissible than previously expected though. Probably why the CDC has recommended masks for vaxed folk too.

[compressor stall]

I have another Wiki reference for this discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law

Very apt. Straight to the pool room alongside the well venerated Dunning Kruger.

[Turnleft080]

The PM about to speak again after another cabinet meeting. I don't wreken will will see 70% never mind 80% vaxed, just maybe, they discussed lowering these
numbers. Just guessing as we need to reach something tangible. You get this feeling that the exit strategy will change on a week to week basis.

Dam he just spoke still 70%. Still a long long way to freedom.

[MickG0105]

The use of the word "huge" is probably just a hyperbole overcome by cognitive lassitude.

So, bullsh^t, in lay terms.


What the not yet peer reviewed studies show are that in communities with very high cases of Delta, vaccinated people who have had breakthrough infections of Delta exhibit similar viral loads to unvaccinated people. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1

Did you look at the sample size that they were working with for that study? An initial cohort of 291 samples with a lot of exclusions along the way.

The small sample size aside, the fundamental problem with that study is that they are trying to use threshold cycle (Ct) values from PCR testing to determine viral load. You can't use Ct values to determine, or even infer, viral load. As the CDC stated clearly here (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/faqs.html#Interpreting-Results-of-Diagnostic-Tests):

A Ct value does not indicate how much virus is present, but only whether or not viral genetic material was detected at a defined threshold.

Similarly, they are then trying to take the inferred viral load to further infer infectiousness. As the CDC states at the same reference as above:

RT-PCR tests are used to identify and diagnose an active infection but cannot be used to show how infectious someone is.

It will be interesting to see if that paper makes it way through the review process.

[compressor stall]

I wasn't supporting its rigour or methodology (I'll let the established process take care of that) rather I was just pointing out that even if does pass, its conclusions are not paradigm shifting, and hardly anything to base an alternative narrative on.

[SHVC]

The PM about to speak again after another cabinet meeting. I don't wreken will will see 70% never mind 80% vaxed, just maybe, they discussed lowering these
numbers. Just guessing as we need to reach something tangible. You get this feeling that the exit strategy will change on a week to week basis.

Dam he just spoke still 70%. Still a long long way to freedom.

Yes another pointless meaningless national cabinet that is yet to achieve anything. One thing I agree with 80% will not be reached anytime soon to save a lot of Australians from financial ruin in many industry. However if our fearless leader Gladys has proven with her half assed lockdown the bloody vaccine works and seems to work well. The nay sayers can argue all they want the last 3 weeks have proved it. Glad I’m fully vaxed to be honest

[Tucknroll]

Lockdowns haven’t had any measurable benefit anywhere they were tried..masks neither..why don’t you try doing something else..something that works

Opinion stated as fact. Of course lockdowns work to slow the spread of disease.

[MickG0105]

I wasn't supporting its rigour or methodology (I'll let the established process take care of that) rather I was just pointing out that even if does pass, its conclusions are not paradigm shifting, and hardly anything to base an alternative narrative on.
Fair enough. Sadly, regardless of where that study lands you'll have some touting the no difference in viral load malarkey as proof that vaccines don't work.

[Xeptu]

Fair enough. Sadly, regardless of where that study lands you'll have some touting the no difference in viral load malarkey as proof that vaccines don't work.

I think the confusion arises out of what we non medical people believed a vaccination "was" prior to Covid and I'll put my hand up, I was one of them.
I understood once I had been vaccinated I couldn't be infected, at least a very low chance of that happening. It turns out as it applies to Corona Virus's, that's not the case, all it's going to do is reduce the severity, who knew.

As I read through previous posts here, there is still some that are of that same understanding. On that basis when someone says it doesn't work are they technically correct, just misguided by what it does.

[Xeptu]

Two Billion Dollars a week the lockdowns are costing, surely that would have justified a dedicated quarantine facility outside of our Capital Cities in each State, similar to Howard Springs.

[mattyj]

Of course lockdowns work to slow the spread of disease.

opinion stated as fact

[Turnleft080]

Opinion stated as fact. Of course lockdowns work to slow the spread of disease.
You forgot to add, they prolong them forever.

[PoppaJo]

Will be interesting to see how she tries to respond tomorrow to the statements made from the CHO in Canberra this evening. Normally the stock
standard ‘We follow the medical advice’...Errrrr the big boss is calling for a circuit breaker Gladys...isn’t that not following the advice?

She did say cases will continue to deteriorate tomorrow, and as she had 18 hours of data already at today’s presser, seems like we are into the 300s now.

[mattyj]

Dry timber

[SOPS]

The consensus here in the West tonight, on all radio and TV news services seems to be, that unless Gladys does something fast and big, NSW will be locked out of WA until at least the end of the year.

[AerialPerspective]

I think the confusion arises out of what we non medical people believed a vaccination "was" prior to Covid and I'll put my hand up, I was one of them.
I understood once I had been vaccinated I couldn't be infected, at least a very low chance of that happening. It turns out as it applies to Corona Virus's, that's not the case, all it's going to do is reduce the severity, who knew.

As I read through previous posts here, there is still some that are of that same understanding. On that basis when someone says it doesn't work are they technically correct, just misguided by what it does.

Isn't the relative threat of infection following full vaccination a factor of the individual vaccine efficacy?? I've had the first AZ and decided to wait the whole 12 weeks to get the second one as it apparently pushes the efficacy to near 100% (certainly in the 90s, as opposed to the 70s I believe when 1 and 2 are 4 weeks apart).

I'm happy to be corrected as I am not a Doctor but that would suggest to me on logic that at 90%+ the chance of getting infected or getting infected and having ANY symptoms is pretty slim, whereas lower efficacy might mean infection and slight symptoms.

I watch Bill Maher's Real Time occasionally and a month or two ago he was tested for Covid and tested positive although he had been fully vaccinated (not sure which one or the time between the doses, but since he's in the US, I'd guess Moderna, Pfizer or J&J) and according to his Press Release, while the virus was present in his system, he had absolutely zero symptoms.

[KRviator]

The consensus here in the West tonight, on all radio and TV news services seems to be, that unless Gladys does something fast and big, NSW will be locked out of WA until at least the end of the year.It's going to take WA that long to get your vaccination rates above the mythical 70/80% for Phase B?

[Turnleft080]

The consensus here in the West tonight, on all radio and TV news services seems to be, that unless Gladys does something fast and big, NSW will be locked out of WA until at least the end of the year.
Phew. You scared the absolute crap out of me Sops, I thought you were going to say this time next year.

[Xeptu]

Isn't the relative threat of infection following full vaccination a factor of the individual vaccine efficacy?? I've had the first AZ and decided to wait the whole 12 weeks to get the second one as it apparently pushes the efficacy to near 100% (certainly in the 90s, as opposed to the 70s I believe when 1 and 2 are 4 weeks apart).

I'm happy to be corrected as I am not a Doctor but that would suggest to me on logic that at 90%+ the chance of getting infected or getting infected and having ANY symptoms is pretty slim, whereas lower efficacy might mean infection and slight symptoms.

I watch Bill Maher's Real Time occasionally and a month or two ago he was tested for Covid and tested positive although he had been fully vaccinated (not sure which one or the time between the doses, but since he's in the US, I'd guess Moderna, Pfizer or J&J) and according to his Press Release, while the virus was present in his system, he had absolutely zero symptoms.

Yes!, that's exactly the way I understand it works "today" we'll still become infected, we'll still be contagious albeit to a lesser degree, we just may not know it (assymptomatic). That still doesn't address any long term implications that infection may cause.

Reiterating prior to Covid, most thought as I did, vaccination prevents infection, which isn't the case for Corona Viruses. Sorta makes sense otherwise we should have eliminated the flu by now.

[SOPS]

It's going to take WA that long to get your vaccination rates above the mythical 70/80% for Phase B?

I think it was because of this statement from the Golden Girl who Does It Differently.


https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/newcastle-hunter-join-sydney-in-lockdown-c-3607977

[Tucknroll]

opinion stated as fact

No, I think you’ll find it is fact stated as fact:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3616969

Are you seriously suggesting that lockdowns do not reduce the spread of a virus within a community?

[KRviator]

I think it was because of this statement from the Golden Girl who Does It Differently.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/cor...down-c-3607977 (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/newcastle-hunter-join-sydney-in-lockdown-c-3607977)And if the mindset behind publishing that article is to be understood, it shows WA likely has no intention of honouring the so-called "fully agreed" National Cabinet Phase B. Th goal of which is to This phase seeks to minimise serious illness, hospitalisation and fatalities from COVID-19 and measures will include:

Restrictions easing on vaccinated residents, which could include lockdowns and border controls
Lockdowns only in "extreme circumstances" to prevent escalating hospitalisation and fatality
Restore inbound passenger caps at previous levels for unvaccinated returning travellers and larger caps for vaccinated returning travellers
Allow capped entry of student and economic visa holders subject to quarantine arrangements being available
Introduce new reduced quarantine arrangements for vaccinated residents
The possible introductions of a COVID vaccine booster programmeI concur with her. I think the genie is out of the bottle now, and no amount of poking, prodding, wishing or hoping will get it back. Not with this variant - and certainly not with a bunch of....multicultural groups....who CBF even trying to comply with the rules.

That leaves vaccination, however, if/when NSW makes the target and still has cases, then what? I'll stake a carton of beer that irrespective of the actual vaccination %-age above target, case numbers or hospitalizations, the borders won't reopen so long as there is community transmission in NSW.

[Xeptu]

Restrictions easing on vaccinated residents, which could include.....

That would be all of them would it not.

[dr dre]

And if the mindset behind publishing that article is to be understood, it shows WA likely has no intention of honouring the so-called "fully agreed" National Cabinet Phase B.

Actually no, the National Roadmap does include lockdowns in Phase B, and also in Phase C for specific locations in extreme circumstances (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/national-cabinet-update-covid19-support-vaccine-targets/100338334). There’s no conflict between what the Federal government and the WA government have said regarding the roadmap.

[MickG0105]

I think the confusion arises out of what we non medical people believed a vaccination "was" prior to Covid and I'll put my hand up, I was one of them.
I understood once I had been vaccinated I couldn't be infected, at least a very low chance of that happening. It turns out as it applies to Corona Virus's, that's not the case, all it's going to do is reduce the severity, who knew.

As I read through previous posts here, there is still some that are of that same understanding. On that basis when someone says it doesn't work are they technically correct, just misguided by what it does.
Yes, for sure, I think that if you're of a certain age you might remember getting the oral polio vaccination and the tuberculosis BCG vaccination as a kid and associating that with essentially zero cases of either. Or if you've got kids of your own, associating the MMR or MMRV vaccines with essentially zero cases of any of measles, mumps, rubella or chicken pox (Varicella).

One of the big differences, of course, is that none of those vaccines or our experience of them was during a pandemic, where the targeted disease was prevalent.

Interestingly or otherwise, one of the hitherto most commonly received vaccinations is for seasonal flu. The purpose of that vaccine is not to stop infection, it is to stop an infection manifesting as a serious illness. People would sometimes get crook from an influenza infection after being vaccinated against the seasonal flu but would not be perturbed because the vaccine prevented the serious illness that is properly associated with the flu. Most people would shrug the mild presentation off as a cold. And no one got bent out of shape about it because there was no associated flu test to demonstrate that despite being vaccinated against the flu you were in fact infected by it.

That's why understanding the efficacy end point is important. What you want from a vaccine is for it to condition your immune system such that when you are infected you don't become seriously ill, don't need to be hospitalised, don't need to be admitted to ICU and don't subsequently die. Ideally it should also reduce your ability to transmit the disease if you do become infected but frankly if the vaccine is efficacious at preventing serious illness AND you have a good uptake of the vaccine in the population, forward transmission isn't as much of a concern.

And what we are seeing in the data out of places like Israel is that the vaccines are reducing hospitalisations, ICU admissions and deaths by an order of magnitude (that is, by around 90 percent).

[compressor stall]

I think the confusion arises out of what we non medical people believed a vaccination "was" prior to Covid and I'll put my hand up, I was one of them.
I understood once I had been vaccinated I couldn't be infected, at least a very low chance of that happening. It turns out as it applies to Corona Virus's, that's not the case, all it's going to do is reduce the severity, who knew.


From the UK using up to date data....
"Although individuals may not develop symptoms of COVID-19 after vaccination, it is possible that they could still be infected with the virus and could transmit to others. Understanding how effective vaccines are at preventing infection is therefore important to predict the likely impact of the vaccination programme on the wider population. In order to estimate vaccine effectiveness against infection, repeat asymptomatic testing of a defined cohort of individuals is required. Studies have now reported on vaccine effectiveness against infection in healthcare workers, care home residents and the general population. With the Pfizer-BioNTech, estimates of effectiveness against infection range from around 55 to 70%, with the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine they range from around 60 to 70% (5, 13, 14, 15). With 2 of 2 doses of either vaccine effectiveness against infection is estimated at around 65 to 90% (5, 13)."
Latest UK Vaccination Summary Report (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1008919/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_31.pdf)

[machtuk]

I would never have thought our society would end up ruined, divided fighting each other and on our knees like this! Oddly enuf not from wars, not from some Virus that 99% of people who get it recover from or even from an alien attack but from an evil force right under our noses, the silent killers the corrupt grubby Govt hell bent on destruction!
We are doomed for the foreseeable future!

[turbantime]

I would never have thought our society would end up ruined, divided fighting each other and on our knees like this! Oddly enuf not from wars, not from some Virus that 99% of people who get it recover from or even from an alien attack but from an evil force right under our noses, the silent killers the corrupt grubby Govt hell bent on destruction!
We are doomed for the foreseeable future!
Survival does not equal recovery. It’s like saying you survived a car crash but you may never recover from the injuries sustained. Lots of info around long COVID. You’re about 12 months behind on the whole debate.

[Transition Layer]

The consensus here in the West tonight, on all radio and TV news services seems to be, that unless Gladys does something fast and big, NSW will be locked out of WA until at least the end of the year.
Meanwhile, in the rest of Australia, no one gives a flying f*ck what the media in WA thinks!

[Cloudee]

I would never have thought our society would end up ruined, divided fighting each other and on our knees like this! Oddly enuf not from wars, not from some Virus that 99% of people who get it recover from or even from an alien attack but from an evil force right under our noses, the silent killers the corrupt grubby Govt hell bent on destruction!
We are doomed for the foreseeable future!
So if half the population get covid, that's 13 million, only one percent will not recover. Thats ok then isn't it, only 130,000 deaths.

[43Inches]

I would never have thought our society would end up ruined, divided fighting each other and on our knees like this! Oddly enuf not from wars, not from some Virus that 99% of people who get it recover from or even from an alien attack but from an evil force right under our noses, the silent killers the corrupt grubby Govt hell bent on destruction!
We are doomed for the foreseeable future!

Unfortunately the uneducated fools can't even do the math with Australia currently running at about 2.5% death rate. Which would boost that number to 325,000... but of course they don't give a dam about other people as long as it's not them. 932 deaths vs 36,000 cases equals about 2.6% death rate, to equate that to your daily life that's one 1 in 40 chance of dieing from it. Long covid being about 15% which means your taxes would have to foot long term medicare and disability payments for another 2 million possibly for the rest of their life span. And the possible loss of their productivity, adds up to some big economic downsides.

Also on the last point, WA has proven that with no virus they are doing pretty well economically with numbers all up on 2019. Compare that to the UK where GDP is still almost double figures in the red from 2019 figures.

[SOPS]

Meanwhile, in the rest of Australia, no one gives a flying f*ck what the media in WA thinks!
Perhaps WA does not care what the rest of Australia ( or should that be Sydney) thinks?
As this continues…

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/covid19-nsw-urgent-alert-issued-for-new-regional-venues-as-virus-spreads-from-sydney/news-story/4c3e0f1f4818ebc9a7115e8339a1bac6

[ruprecht]

to equate that to your daily life that's one 1 in 40 chance of dieing from it.

Depending on your age, of course…

[Global Aviator]

The entire way Australia has dealt with this is an absolute joke to the world. Mind you that’s been said on here enough. A quick google and I can’t seem to find another first world nation that has screwed it up so badly.

It really seems to be pretty simple looking at the rest of the first world, vaccinations high, borders open. That’s international borders! Whilst Australia cannot even keep domestic borders open, what a joke.

Canada announces easing of travel from the 9th, USA is fairly free, UK, Europe. In Asia Singapore is working hard to open. All this time Australia goes backwards, industry is decimated and people seriously over it.

As we all know the biggest issue is zero unity in the country, zero leadership and a media that blows it all sideways.

Watch the rest of the world slowly get back to normal, I honestly even fear for domestic Christmas holidays in Straya!

[Dannyboy39]

The entire way Australia has dealt with this is an absolute joke to the world. Mind you that’s been said on here enough. A quick google and I can’t seem to find another first world nation that has screwed it up so badly
Hang on, what happened to Australia being great and UK being bad?

[compressor stall]

That changed in the second quarter of this year.

it is clear that up to March our response had been - through good geographic fortune and brutal border policies - successful and we enjoyed a standard of life and freedoms much of the rest of the world envied. The economy was recovering and we watched as the rest of the world had harder longer lockdowns, mass death and economic hits.

But by March steadily people in many of the worst hit western countries had rolled up their sleeves and got jabbed. Meanwhile we suffered from mixed messaging about what was safe, bungled orders became apparent, and fatally were told vaccination was not a race. And then came delta.

I would rather be in the UK now than here.

[43Inches]

So Dr Fauci didnt fund the Wuhan lab? Bill Gates (now a medical expert) not pushing through his teeth for vaccinations? mRNA tech does not alter DNA (never been tested on humans before)? The Government and its puppets always tell you the truth? 1000's of Doctors/Scientist speaking out about the truth are all of a sudden 'conspiracy theorists' and silenced? Breakthrough cases are another conspiracy? Lockdowns are not against the WHO recommendations ? Vaccinations make you more contagious and they are not a vaccine because they dont stop you from getting the virus? You need a booster shot every Six months? I could go on and on...But if people dont wake up, these borders/lockdowns aren't going anywhere!!!!

Yes the population will never get anywhere if they keep regurgitating Sky News headlines and US Republican party crap that has been disproved and just makes you look stupid and uneducated over and over.

I would rather be in the UK now than here.

I really hope you are joking on that front, you'd have to be mildly insane to want to even visit the UK right now, things are pretty dire over there. I don't mean just the Covid issues, everything from crime to unemployment to well, yes, the risk of getting covid. The UK has the double wham of dealing with brexit and covid at the same time and things are not going well.

The entire way Australia has dealt with this is an absolute joke to the world.

When you state that you make a joke of yourself, no one outside of Australia is caring about how Australia handles it because most of them have been inundated with Covid and are more worried about fighting. I agree Scomo has handled this incredibly badly, but due to some state premier diligence and the lockdowns working we are one of the few Western nations with a positive GDP from 2019. There is one thing that is certain, the countries that have had large spread of covid in the community have had massive economic downturns as a result. France, Germany, USA all sit at -3% or worse than 2019 figures, UK is clawing back some losses at -8%. If the virus had not been mishandled by Sydney playing politics we'd be up 1-2% by now. China and India are positive, but they are major developing nations, so they just burn through peasants to go forward, but they are still way down on pre-2020 expansion rates.

[compressor stall]

When you state that you make a joke of yourself, no one outside of Australia is caring about how Australia handles it because most of them have been inundated with Covid and are more worried about fighting.
What load of bollocks. I have spoken to plenty of people overseas who are interested and that has not really changed. But now they are interested in the "what the #$%$ happened to you guys?" sense. Australia's current situation and outbreak(s) is in the news regularly across three continents maybe more.


I really hope you are joking on that front, you'd have to be mildly insane to want to even visit the UK right now, things are pretty dire over there.

No I'm not joking. Maybe I am insane as I was in the UK just 10 days ago.

[43Inches]

Its people like yourself that get all worked up over such division on a topic.

I was never going to get involved in this forum debate because I watch most of you just abusing each other and throwing emotions around!

I just felt like I needed too state what I had too. Whether you agree with it or not, I said what I had to say!

Not worked up at all, I'm quite happy sitting with nothing much to do but debate Covid misinformation, one of the side products of lockdown. I figure the longer people perpetuate moronic ideas that disuade people from just getting out and getting vaccinated we will stay in lockdown even longer.

Your statement of things have all been covered in this thread, probably numerous times and are well debunked by science and critical research.

So yes I have reached the stage where I just say it's stupid to just regurgitate it over and over.

[43Inches]

So, does the Vaccine provide Immunity?

Yes.

Immunity in medical terms is not complete protection from the virus, it just means your body has the ability to fight the virus.

Almost all the current vaccines have been proven to reduce severity of symptoms of Covid by a factor of 90% reducing the death rate significantly among affected.

Due to the high replication rate of the virus, especially delta strain, live virus can still be shed and yes a person may still have active infection along with being infectious to others.

[43Inches]

Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

That is a dumbed down wording of immunity. Protection does not mean, does not get, in actuality you must be infected first for your immune system to respond to the threat and deal with it.

If it was to say provides "complete" protection then you might consider that as the immunity you are searching for. Terms like you "can" be exposed and not get infected is a way of saying in most cases yes you wont notice you were exposed to a virus. Goverment agencies use wording like that to ensure people don't pick at the edges. Same way your antibacterial wipes say they protect vs 99.9% of bacteria. You will always get sick from the .1% if you challenge it in court.

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.


If the vaccine removes 90% of severe symptoms vs a non vaccinated I would say it offers protection from that disease, just not "complete" protection.

[compressor stall]

Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.
Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease.
Is it a Vaccine then?
Nice play of semantics, but from your own link - Immunization: A process by which a person becomes protected against a disease through vaccination. This term is often used interchangeably with vaccination or inoculation.

You'd also better tell the Federal Gov health department to change their wording (https://www.health.gov.au/health-topics/immunisation/immunisation-services/chickenpox-immunisation-service-0)

[Xeptu]

This was my point a way back, should we really be calling it a vaccine. In our aviation world we do all we can to remove ambiguity, for example we don't use runway 13 and 31, vertical distance in feet, horizontal distance in metres.

Most of us pre Covid understood a vaccine meant immunity, I can't be infected. Whilst that may be the case for some vaccines it isn't for corona viruses.

[Transition Layer]

Perhaps WA does not care what the rest of Australia ( or should that be Sydney) thinks?
As this continues…

https://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act/news/covid19-nsw-urgent-alert-issued-for-new-regional-venues-as-virus-spreads-from-sydney/news-story/4c3e0f1f4818ebc9a7115e8339a1bac6
So why does WA carry on with countless news articles about the rest of Australia and the COVID situation?

My only hope is that the bad news from NSW/VIC spurs the WA population into vaccination because something needs to be done about that. The hermit nation has created a lacklustre approach to the jab and a general feeling that “it can’t happen here”. It can, and it will.

[43Inches]

for example we don't use runway 13 and 31

You might want to check with Moorabbin on that one.

Most of us pre Covid understood a vaccine meant immunity, I can't be infected. Whilst that may be the case for some vaccines it isn't for corona viruses.

I think this all was evident around the Flu vaccine and the constant reminder it was there to reduce symptoms not prevent it.

[Climb150]

For those spruiking the good economy of Australia during CoVID, here are the USA figures.

Per capita
2021* 68,308.97 estimated
2020 63,415.99
2019 65,253.52

To the person saying Australia GDP has been going up through CoVID, the facts say differently.

In billions of $
2020 1,359.33$
​​​​2019 1,391.54$

Looks like a drop to me

[Xeptu]

I think this all was evident around the Flu vaccine and the constant reminder it was there to reduce symptoms not prevent it.

Yes I agree with you, but does it remove ambiguity. A good way to find out would be to ask the israelis. Are you immune to Covid-19. Well No but I've been vaccinated as opposed to Yes I have been vaccinated.

[43Inches]

President Joe Biden's administration provided $1.9 trillion in pandemic relief in March, sending one-time $1,400 checks to qualified households and extending a $300 unemployment subsidy through early September. That brought the amount of government aid to nearly $6 trillion since the pandemic started in the United States in March 2020.

That's why the US GDP figures are growing at such a rate. $20,000 USD per person. Australia in comparison is $11,000 AUD per person half what the US is spending, and as I said earlier the government don't want to spend more because inflation is already creeping up due to us not being in that bad position.

The 2021-22 Budget committed an additional $41 billion in direct economic support, bringing total support since the beginning of the pandemic to $291 billion as of May 2021.

Australias current financial support costs, and that $41bil extra hasn't been used yet.

In billions of $
2020 1,359.33$
​​​​2019 1,391.54$

You might want to add 2021 figures to that.

2021* 1,617.54$

Suddenly looks positive again...

[Global Aviator]

When you state that you make a joke of yourself, no one outside of Australia is caring about how Australia handles it because most of them have been inundated with Covid and are more worried about fighting.

You obviously haven’t been out of AuSTrayaTraz in sometime. I can tell you what people think when they know the truth of what’s happening on the prison island. You can’t travel domestically, city lockdowns, approvals required to leave, you can’t get back if just a general citizen without mega cost, 14 day quarantine with no end in sight.

I do hate to admit it, it is Australia that is the joke and an embarrassment on the world stage.

Lets just hope vaccinations go crazy, it is the only hope. Will there be domestic travel by Christmas?

[43Inches]

I dont remember any other Vaccine's that has caused more deaths and had 'Breakthroughs'.

Then you have not followed any of this thread or have researched other vaccines. Just roll back to our ADE discussion, which relates to a number of vaccines in the past that have caused deaths. You don't hear about them because in sheltered Australia we rarely get viruses of much mass concern.

[43Inches]

You obviously haven’t been out of AuSTrayaTraz in sometime. I can tell you what people think when they know the truth of what’s happening on the prison island. You can’t travel domestically, city lockdowns, approvals required to leave, you can’t get back if just a general citizen without mega cost, 14 day quarantine with no end in sight.

Half my family and numerous friends live overseas. I'm an immigrant to Australia so a lot of extended family in foreign nations, including the USA, UK and others less fortunate like India. Most of their news is similar crud to here, trying to get others to vaccinate so normal life can return etc etc.

[MickG0105]

For those spruiking the good economy of Australia during CoVID, here are the USA figures.

Per capita
2021* 68,308.97 estimated
2020 63,415.99
2019 65,253.52

What is the currency your quoting those per capita GDP numbers in please? And what is your source for this data please?


To the person saying Australia GDP has been going up through CoVID, the facts say differently.

In billions of $
2020 1,359.33$
​​​​2019 1,391.54$

Looks like a drop to me
Couldn't help but notice that you provided a 2021 estimate for the US GDP per capita numbers but haven't provided a 2021 estimate for the Australian GDP numbers. Any particular reason for that?

[galdian]

Just glanced at the ABC news channel - are the spin doctors working overtime or am I just too sensitive?

Reporting "Victoria has 29 new cases, none in quarantine".

Is that the same as "Victoria has 29 new cases, all in the community"?

Trying to soften the blow/misdirect the masses, cases in quarantine of interest, cases in the community a disaster.

Wonder if the ABC just pulled the statement directly from Chairman Dan's propaganda division or massaged the message themselves?

[43Inches]

I stopped watching ABC a long time ago. I admit, I used to enjoy it, including Q&A. Was a frequenter to CNN too. But after some self education (growing old), It has become apparent these channels have become nothing but far left propaganda on an extraordinary scale and I wouldn't believe anything that comes from them
!

I suggest you read up on what propaganda is, most of what ABC does is truthful, just presented very badly.

You watch the likes of Fox and Sky News and they basically twist any truth to suit the right wing agenda. I recall when vaccine rollout was slow both channels blatantly blamed the states for slow rollout, when it had nothing to do with the states. They use large screaming headlines that have little to do with the subject matter and clarify the truth in the fine print, but nobody usually gets to that part of the drivel. Under test some of what they say is true, but twisted in angle, which is exactly what propaganda is. BTW Australia does not blanket ban political propaganda, they reserved the right to not include that ban in our human rights agreement, so yes be very wary of how news and opinion pieces are angled here. Like seen on this forum, most people can regurgitate the rubbish spewed forth in headlines and catch phrases but can't substantiate why, that's when you know you've been fooled.

[Torukmacto]

It’s your right not to get vaccinated just accept the time is coming when lockdowns will end and you might not be able to do your job , attend sports events or go to your favourite restaurant. No overseas travel and some people may choose to keep their distance . Very little sympathy from health care workers if your sick , best to have private health insurance . It’s a choice and choices have consequences.

[Climb150]

What is the currency your quoting those per capita GDP numbers in please? And what is your source for this data please?


Couldn't help but notice that you provided a 2021 estimate for the US GDP per capita numbers but haven't provided a 2021 estimate for the Australian GDP numbers. Any particular reason for that?

Because I was primarily just proving that Australias GDP did drop contrary to what one poster said. The US data was on my screen at the time and data for the Australian numbers were not.
On looking just then the projections for 2021 are similar percentage wise to the USA. That could be revised if the on again off again lock down yoyo persists.

[MickG0105]

Because I was primarily just proving that Australias GDP did drop contrary to what one poster said. The US data was on my screen at the time and data for the Australian numbers were not.
On looking just then the projections for 2021 are similar percentage wise to the USA. That could be revised if the on again off again lock down yoyo persists.
Okey doke, thank you.

So, what source are you using? And are you converting those US GDP per capita numbers into AUD?

Separately, I can't recall anyone saying that Australia's economy didn't shrink during 2020. What others have said, quite correctly, is that in Q1-21 the economy had recovered such that it was larger than Q4-19. I'm pretty sure that that was unique amongst developed economies.

[43Inches]

Because I was primarily just proving that Australias GDP did drop contrary to what one poster said. The US data was on my screen at the time and data for the Australian numbers were not.
On looking just then the projections for 2021 are similar percentage wise to the USA. That could be revised if the on again off again lock down yoyo persists.

If you are referring to my posts, re-read, they state that Australia is above where it was prior to covid, not that it didn't drop during the pandemic. Also I clearly showed why the US GDP is so high, with $20,000 USD per person in the US so far handed out in pure covid stimulus. Australia has handed out less than half of that with about $11,000 AUD per person in stimulus/assistance. When you look at the big picture, Australia has done much better economically than the US. You have to also throw in that Australia started a trade war with China over the whole cause of covid, where they have blocked a number of luxury imports and beef, which the US picked up the slack on and provided to china. So our economy could easily have been another few % points higher if that trade was maintained.

In the UK economic recovery is being stifled by a lack of workers, partly because of brexit, but a larger cause is isolating workers due to the large number of infections. Education is still down on attendance for the same reason, and fear as well to re-enter society for fear of more waves. This has hit GDP significantly.

[mattyj]

I was listening to RT’s boom bust show yesterday and they were saying the UK economy was going great..??

having said that, the city of London and its financial district and the surrounding suburbs are a completely different planet than the rest of the UK

[dr dre]

I was listening to RT

And there’s your first mistake....

[pithblot]

Politicians have abdicated responsibility for this Covid crisis
If a foreign power were causing damage on this scale we would regard it as an act of war, and deaths in defence of the country would become acceptable again.Read in The Australian: https://apple.news/AJ_imuxadTJq1Bg2aN93cLg



Politicians have abdicated responsibility for this Covid crisis


By Steve Waterson
12:00AM AUGUST 07, 2021

Well, that was worth waiting for. Finally a tiny glimpse of the modelling that has underpinned government decision-making on our Covid response, and very convincing it is too. And unbelievably, literally unbelievably, precise.

Let’s not go through the various conditional predictions of the virus’s impact, especially the “worst-case” scenario, which happily generates a number far short of “everybody dies”, which I would regard as the worst case.

Instead here’s what the Doherty Institute says could happen if we suffered a six-month uncontrolled outbreak with only 60 per cent of the population vaccinated: there would be 737,971 infections and 5294 deaths. Note the super-scientific accuracy: not 737,970 or 737,972 infections; why, that would just be sloppy guesswork.

I’m teasing, of course (it’s one of the few pleasures not yet forbidden in these joyless times), and have no doubt the statisticians are doing their very best with the data; so let’s assume they’re correct that almost three-quarters of a million would be infected, of whom 5000 would die.

Many of us in the anti-lockdown corner are asked how many lives we would sacrifice to see the country open up again, our accusers triumphantly certain there is no decent answer because, as the NSW Premier told us in May, “no death is acceptable”.

She and her interstate counterparts would rather smash our lives and livelihoods in pursuit of their ridiculous, hubristic ambition.

If a foreign power were causing damage on this scale we would regard it as an act of war, when deaths in defence of the country would become acceptable again.

Perhaps we should bite the bullet and say 5000 predominantly old people taken prematurely is a sad but tolerable price to pay for the restoration of our freedoms and the repair of our society – as long as it’s not my precious grandparents. Oh wait, mine have already died of old age, like all my ancestors since humans first wandered out of the African Rift Valley. It happens a lot, I understand. And by the way, those 5000 projected deaths assume we could find no other way of protecting the vulnerable, which is hard to believe.

The Prime Minister’s proud boast is that our closed borders and hyper vigilance have “saved 30,000 lives” since the start of the epidemic last year. More unverifiable modelling; but again, let’s assume he’s right. I wonder how many of the saved have succumbed to other ailments in that time; or will next week’s census reveal a Cocoon-like bubble of healthy nonagenarians, 30,000 strong, laughing at Covid and death in all its other guises?

At best, we’ve dragged their lives out for a few more lonely months sequestered from their families, just as we’ve kicked the whole pandemic a little way down the road, at an almost inconceivable cost. As our leaders and their worker bees finesse their incarceration strategy, in the background the cries of misery grow louder.

The politicians look on, stern-faced and witless, bleating their platitudes about feeling our pain, and urging us to get vaccinated as the only way to escape the shackles on our lives, as though they had nothing to do with the sinister emergency powers they have granted themselves and aimed against us. “A surge in cases has closed restaurants”; “the latest outbreak means tradesmen can’t go to work”; “thanks to some selfish cab driver we must stay at home for the next month”.

No, ladies and gentlemen, the virus hasn’t done this to us; you have, cosy in your luxurious offices with your index-linked financial cushions, surrounded by sycophants and shoving people around like demented puppetmasters.

It may come as a shock to those snorting and gobbling at the trough of public money, but not everyone makes their living by opening a spreadsheet on a laptop, reaching out to a stakeholder and unmuting themselves on a Zoom call.

There are people who pay taxes (rather than recycle them) by travelling every day to places where they make actual things with their hands, who build home offices rather than work from them.

Some then have the audacity to consider their manual or menial work essential, as though they are under some obligation to put food on the table for their families.

And these ungrateful wretches, instead of praising the wisdom of their superiors who imprison them in their unfashionable suburbs, have the nerve to march in the streets in complaint, thousands of people engaged in reckless superspreader events that have led to a massive zero new infections.

“How sharper than a serpent’s tooth it is to have a thankless child!” wails Shakespeare’s King Lear. Echoing him, our politicians and bureaucrats, parents to their infantilised population, are “disgusted” (NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian) with these “filthy” (NSW Deputy Police Commissioner Gary Worboys) “boofheads” (NSW Police Minister David Elliot), “wankers” (NT Chief Minister Michael Gunner) and “hooligans, dropkicks” (WA Premier Mark McGowan). Treasure the eloquent, statesmanlike rhetoric of these latter-day Ciceros; that’s the way to bring the people along with you in difficult times.

Instead they govern by regulations that grow daily more ridiculous. Sit down to drink, but stand up near a park bench; exercise, but don’t rest; go shopping but don’t browse, even though the sadists at Coles have moved everything you wanted into different aisles; under no circumstances talk to anyone you know, despite the masks that afford magic protection from nanometre Covid dust; the list is a never-ending carousel of hilarity.

The latest inanity from the future governor of Queensland (remember her, the one who did more than anyone else to dissuade people from receiving the AstraZeneca vaccine?) is to warn against online shopping.

“Do you need those people out in the community delivering packages and things?” she asks. No, your excellency, of course not, let them park their vans and bikes and get a well-paid, non-executive board position like your pals do.

What begins as absurdity soon turns dark. In NSW you must carry evidence of your address at all times when outside your home, and produce it to a police officer – “Papers please!” – on demand. You must carry a mask on your person, even to walk the dog around the block. Cold War Berlin-style police checkpoints have appeared on our streets to confirm cars are within 10km of their homes, and their occupants not intending to protest against their rulers. The army is on patrol in areas whose citizens are often refugees from regimes where camouflage battle-dress is rarely a welcome sight.

Do Western concepts of freedom no longer matter in Australia? Is it a trivial matter that we are commanded not to leave our homes? Does it seriously not bother anyone in office that we are being compared – accurately – to North Korea in our legislated refusal to allow our citizens to leave the country, or overseas Australians to return? This is very bad company we find ourselves in.

The politicians say they’re faced with tough decisions, but they’re not making decisions at all. They defend their abdication of responsibility by loftily declaring they are acting on the health advice they receive. They don’t evaluate that advice, mind, they simply follow it.

And it leads always to the same destination: lockdown. It’s “horrible”, Berejiklian said this week, “but we know we have no option”. In Victoria, Premier Daniel Andrews parrots her: “There are no alternatives to lockdown”, he said on Thursday. Unless of course you don’t order a lockdown, which I think does qualify as an option, and a much more appealing one.

Lockdowns certainly work in the crudest sense, in that by isolating people you limit viral transmission, but that’s not the point.

It’s the cost-benefit analysis that’s missing, absent from the moment our governments panicked and abandoned our sensible national pandemic plan to follow the brutes of Communist China into a policy of dystopian oppression, to “keep us safe”.

Let’s turn the acceptable casualty question around and direct it to our leaders: how many fruitful young lives are you happy to waste to keep those Covid numbers low?

How many small businesses are you ready to see disappear? How many suicides will you tolerate? How many bankruptcies? How many children should forgo their formative primary education and socialisation? How many deaths from other untreated illness are acceptable to you?

How much sorrow are you willing to impose on your subjects? How many grief-stricken families must bury parents and children without ceremony, like backyard pets? How many tears will soften your stony, self-righteous hearts?

Whether born of stupidity or callousness, the effect of our current aimless course is the same. State against state, city against country, suburb against suburb, office worker against tradesman, old against young, vaccinated against unvaccinated: it is a heartless, divisive and dehumanising policy. And worse, it doesn’t work.

The very people we elect to safeguard our freedoms are shredding them, causing fractures in society that may never be healed.

Surely there are politicians in every party who are silently appalled by this mounting despair and devastation. If their leaders cannot find a path out of this madness, perhaps those others should speak up and think about taking the reins, before the electorate’s frustration turns to fury.




Shared from Apple News (https://www.apple.com/au/news)

[43Inches]

I was listening to RT’s boom bust show yesterday and they were saying the UK economy was going great..??

having said that, the city of London and its financial district and the surrounding suburbs are a completely different planet than the rest of the UK
7th Aug 2021 11:39

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/18/britain-economic-confusion-reflects-the-mess-of-covid-freedom-day

This article highlights a few issues with the UK economy, notably workforce and inflation risks with treasury stimulus mostly driving recovery over opening the community up. An interesting note was US inflation has crept up to above 5% due to them printing endless money.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58014256

More on job vacancy concerns.

[Turnleft080]

Gladys accused of Claytons of going to soft to slowly now over 300, Dan going Vodka has 29 all in the community.
Good one Dan and no ring of steel. Why? It's to expensive and not enough cops to police it.
From lockdown 5, to lockdown lite, to lockdown 6. That's like taking the foot of the accelerator.
Unless the traces can track like buggery, this lockdown will be extended. Hoover Dam crack discovered
more sticky tape required.

From an aviation point of view come October flights crews will be struggling to stay current again.

[Lead Balloon]

Well bloody said!

[43Inches]

Fine until the end where it goes on about freedoms, suicides and bankruptcies, which we have done to death debunking as completely fake news. Just more emotive crap with no baseline information, sounds good to all those that want confirmation bias that they are right.

Just get vaccinated and get on with it.

The virus is not a foreign power, the economy was doing fine until NSW screwed the containment.

Western concepts of freedom are being followed to the letter, lockdown and quarantine during a health emergency is within international human rights legislation.

People writing this crap just get more stupid people on side who don't follow the rules and spread it further, extending our lockdowns.

Etc etc etc....

[Best Rate]

Hear hear! 👏

“Cost/benefit analysis”, extremely relevant IMO….

[43Inches]

How much sorrow are you willing to impose on your subjects? How many grief-stricken families must bury parents and children without ceremony, like backyard pets? How many tears will soften your stony, self-righteous hearts?

Actually you can attend funerals and weddings via the internet now, might not be ideal but like everything else doing well you can do it therefore not missing any ceremony.

Whether born of stupidity or callousness, the effect of our current aimless course is the same. State against state, city against country, suburb against suburb, office worker against tradesman, old against young, vaccinated against unvaccinated: it is a heartless, divisive and dehumanising policy. And worse, it doesn’t work.

So lockdown pits young against old, but the statement earlier of ;

Perhaps we should bite the bullet and say 5000 predominantly old people taken prematurely is a sad but tolerable price to pay for the restoration of our freedoms and the repair of our society


Those oldies will just accept the young'ns telling them to move on and be turned into biscuits.

Sorry but this guy has written complete BS.