All borders to reopen.

[lc_461]

I remember around the time Kevin Rudd was Prime Minister they were relatively advanced in discussions about doing just this. I would have thought technology advances (Smartgate pods etc) would make this even more feasible now. But might be a bit hard to implement in such short notice...

[Boe787]

As New Zealand flights are classified International, will Qantas as previously stated, require every International passenger to be vaccinated?

[Keg]

As New Zealand flights are classified International, will Qantas as previously stated, require every International passenger to be vaccinated?

No.... well at least not yet. Perhaps in 12 months they may.

[1A_Please]

No.... well at least not yet. Perhaps in 12 months they may.
After both countries have completed their vaccination programs, it is possible that each will require proof of vaccination before allowing all non-citizens entry.

[Australopithecus]

And yet the WHO is still clinging to their position discouraging vaccine proof for travel. They cite a hand-wringing concern over the UN's claimed right of freedom of movement, despite this never being a real right enjoyed by real people. The WHO had one job in a pandemic at which they failed miserably, and now they compound their ineptitude.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/who-urges-against-vaccine-passports-even-for-international-travel-20210407-p57h0d.html

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Considering neither AU or NZ domestic flights require international security standards, why bother for bubble.
Flights between AU and NZ are treated exactly the same as any other international flight, although the visa requirements are different. Same security, immigration, and bio processing. What they are wanting is a return to the pre-COVID process for the bubble (ie the former business as usual), and still have the much more invasive, resource intensive processing for everyone else. I don't think the plan is to rewrite the book to allow for trans-tasman flights, because as more countries get added to the bubble, you just want the process to expand, not have to be adapted again and again depending on which country it is.
Most airports looked at doing International from Domestic terminals when foreign (and AUS) lockouts decimated the flight numbers, but cost and intransigence from the govt. agencies knocked that on the head. Domestic has recovered to pretty much make that unworkable at most ports now anyway.

[neville_nobody]

Alan Joyce was pushing for NZ flights to become domestic to reduce airfares a while ago.

[1A_Please]

Alan Joyce was pushing for NZ flights to become domestic to reduce airfares a while ago.
He wanted to reduce his costs not costs to the punters.

[wheels_down]

Whatever Alan is ever pushing on any given day its only ever related to the balance sheet. Not Health or Customer pockets.

[Buster Hyman]

He wanted to reduce his costs not costs to the punters.
I tink you moight be roight.

[Koalatiger]

Time will tell...

[blubak]

Whatever Alan is ever pushing on any given day its only ever related to the balance sheet. Not Health or Customer pockets.
Exactly right yet people still fall for his rhetoric,he & his leadership team do not care for anyone or anything except themselves.

[Yarra]

Lol. How do you know you’re interacting with a Kiwi? Because of the enormous chip on their shoulder towards Australia! It’s a national inferiority complex. It was embarrassing 35 years ago when I lived in NZ for a time, it’s still embarrassing. Seriously, get help.

Kiwis...well balanced induvuduals... A Chup on both shoulders

[kev2002]

Kiwis...well balanced induvuduals... A Chup on both shoulders

Perhaps, but it it could be argued that the piss-take spelling and the constant inference that New Zealand is a quaint little backwater stuck in a time warp (ironic considering how archaic Australian aviation is) can wear a little thin. Anyway, from a pilot perspective its good to see things starting to open up.

[1A_Please]

Perhaps, but it it could be argued that the piss-take spelling and the constant inference that New Zealand is a quaint little backwater stuck in a time warp (ironic considering how archaic Australian aviation is) can wear a little thin. Anyway, from a pilot perspective its good to see things starting to open up.
I'm kind of surprised NZ opened the bubble. Jacinda seems more interested in sucking up to China than maintaining traditional alliances.

[Troo believer]

Given the current incredible rate of vaccination in both the USA and UK, it’s not hard to project that these two countries will be fully vaccinated and ready to travel whilst Australia and New Zealand will be left languishing. Thousands of people’s livelihood depend on tourist dollars flowing their way and yet both governments are slow and cumbersome in their approach to getting the vaccinations done. Hurry up and pull your fingers out. Too many bureaucrats and not enough action. Why couldn’t they set up a drive through at Maccas. Big Mac and vaccine with fries.

[jrfsp]

Well particularly if we follow suit and say AZ should not be given to under 30s etc, we've got bugger else on order (aside from the Pfizer which we are not getting)

[layman]

Not quite ... 51 million doses of Novovax on order for Australia for delivery in 2021

https://www.health.gov.au/node/18777/australias-vaccine-agreements

[jrfsp]

Not quite ... 51 million doses of Novovax on order for Australia for delivery in 2021

https://www.health.gov.au/node/18777/australias-vaccine-agreements

Ahh true enough, sourced from Europe......good luck

[Square Bear]

So what now are the opinions/directions of those (such as Dr Dre) who suggested the “jab” would be the panacea, and all those that were wary should automatically be lumped into the “anti vaccers” camp?

Btw, not against AZ, being over 30 will take the jab....but take it from a “not holier than thou” viewpoint....and certainly understand those that were always cautious.

Expecting some self opinionated spin in reply from certain quarters (sigh).

Edit....”Oops, my bad...looks like the “AZ jab” may not be the preferable option (at least for the short term) for those under 50 years of age.

[jrfsp]

I personally think this will set the intl border back 6-12 months, depending on supply from overseas.

Without the ability to manufacture locally we have little control

[wheels_down]

Herd Immunity is going to be a challenge down under it now seems. Vaccine hesitancy is already about 1 in 3 people.

It seems the only way out of this is to a) vaccinate as many as possible, clearly below herd levels b) wait wait and just wait for it to become weak and die off. I don’t know what is the acceptable level of ‘weak’ to open the world up again.

It will die eventually we just need to be prepared to wait a while. International Borders I’ve said all along, come back in late 2023.

[SOPS]

I personally think this will set the intl border back 6-12 months, depending on supply from overseas.

Without the ability to manufacture locally we have little control
I agree.. that’s it I think. Big set back. AZ not recommend for those under 50. This will set the programme back by months. Many people under 50 won’t get the AZ vaccine now. Borders are going to stay shut. And if AJ thinks he will be sending International flights off in October.. I think he is dreaming.

[wheels_down]

Q4 is when supply for Pzifer and others will be available in large scale numbers as the USA and others dial down the program.

They will need to head down the path of mass vaccination centres late this year to really make headway. They now have the luxury of a few months to plan this and conduct the mass jabs.

[SHVC]

After seeing the Astra Zeneca roll out, expect the same with Pfizer if not worse. Pfizer is difficult for communities outside capital citys. I can’t see any level of hers immunity in Australia for yrs.

It’s definitely put international travel back beyond this yr for sure!

[ruprecht]

So who is going to rush out and get the AZ jab now? I think we’ll end up exporting most of our supply. With the low levels of infection in this country, most are now going to sit around and wait for an alternative vaccine. This has pushed the international border opening back a long way... :hmm:

[KRviator]

The other problem with deferring the vaccine rollout is one of a state response to the pestilence getting out and about in the community again. Will McGoose and Anna-Stayaway resume their heavy-handed approach to their borders?

[Stick Flying]

So who is going to rush out and get the AZ jab now? I think we’ll end up exporting most of our supply. With the low levels of infection in this country, most are now going to sit around and wait for an alternative vaccine. This has pushed the international border opening back a long way... :hmm:
Couldn't agree more

[601]

So who is going to rush out and get the AZ jab now?

I expect to see a rise in unplanned pregnancies as the different rates of blood clots sink in.
1 in 1,000 women per year who take the oral contraceptive and 60% higher for those who use a patch.

Rate of clots for COVID patients
• Pulmonary embolism, or clotting on the lungs, occurs in 7.8% of people who have COVID-19
• Deep vein thrombosis (DVT), or clotting in the legs, occurs in 11.2% of people who have COVID-19
• Of those who have COVID-19 and end up in an intensive therapy unit (ITU), 23% will have some form of clot
• COVID-19 causes strokes in 1.6% of people
• Up to 30% of people who have COVID-19 will get thrombocytopenia, which is a lowering of the platelet count.

Is it such a slow news period that we have to tilt at windmills?

[Joker89]

The other problem with deferring the vaccine rollout is one of a state response to the pestilence getting out and about in the community again. Will McGoose and Anna-Stayaway resume their heavy-handed approach to their borders?

will they ever, this pandemic is a political wet dream. The gift that keeps on giving.

[SHVC]

From the TGA website, Pfizer appears to be no better option than Astra Zeneca if you compare the data. With Pfizer you're more likely to have Anaphylaxis, cardiac event or a bleeding disorder. I will take my chances with the 6 in 1 million chance of the blood clot taking Astra Zeneca.

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-07-04-2021

[Troo believer]

Once again we’ve lost any context of risk. You have a greater probability of dying whilst driving to get an AZ vaccine than any risk of death from a blood clot. We’re becoming a country of risk averse nannies. How the hell do people even get out of bed in the morning without fear of death is beyond comprehension. Nanaustralia.

[Foxxster]

Then there is this.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9446907/Some-women-report-heavier-painful-PERIODS-getting-COVID-19-vaccine.html#comments

and this. I sure as hell hope we and the rest of the world have closed off all flights from Brazil.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9447843/Brazils-Covid-Fukushima-P1-variant-killing-young-people-threatens-destabilise-world.html

and what happens when we get that mutation that renders the current vaccines ineffective... seeing as we are witnessing how difficult it is to roll out a vaccine in the numbers required. We would need to repeat the process for a new vaccine, after it has been modified. And what is the percentage degradation in effectiveness governments are prepared to accept. A new mutation makes current vaccines 25% less effective. Is that ok. 35%, 50%..

[morno]

20 million more Pfizer jabs secured, for delivery............. at the end of the year :hmm:

How’s that supposed to work for those who live away from a major city where they can be administered? Are the government going to be flying every person under the age of 50 to the nearest capital city to be vaccinated?

[jrfsp]

I mean we had ordered 20 million doses, and so far received 1 million. Without domestic production there is no way we can control delivery, if anything supply will become even more controlled this year.

I dont think the storage will be a huge issue, the temperature isnt that low

[On eyre]

20 million more Pfizer jabs secured, for delivery............. at the end of the year :hmm:

How’s that supposed to work for those who live away from a major city where they can be administered? Are the government going to be flying every person under the age of 50 to the nearest capital city to be vaccinated?

Not quite - in Q4.

[Foxxster]

I mean we had ordered 20 million doses, and so far received 1 million. Without domestic production there is no way we can control delivery, if anything supply will become even more controlled this year.

I dont think the storage will be a huge issue, the temperature isnt that low


there have been numerous cases of the AstraZeneca vaccine being thrown out due to spoilage from being temperature compromised. Seems Linfox have a lot to answer for. The Pfizer vaccine has potential for disaster from a logistics perspective.

[Qwark]

Once again we’ve lost any context of risk. You have a greater probability of dying whilst driving to get an AZ vaccine than any risk of death from a blood clot. We’re becoming a country of risk averse nannies. How the hell do people even get out of bed in the morning without fear of death is beyond comprehension. Nanaustralia.

Why not go one step further and point out that from a risk view point, it is better for under 50’s to be unvaccinated than take this AZ vaccine (with a very rare side effect). Its was always the case that vaccines are developed to prevent the population from contracting a disease with significant health effects. This has never been the case for COVID and the younger/healthy group of the population.

[Australopithecus]

Why not go one step further and point out that from a risk view point, it is better for under 50’s to be unvaccinated than take this AZ vaccine (with a very rare side effect). Its was always the case that vaccines are developed to prevent the population from contracting a disease with significant health effects. This has never been the case for COVID and the younger/healthy group of the population.

That's true only right now while the borders are effectively closed. The P1 variant in Brazil is killing more people under 50, and eventually it will be seen everywhere, as all the variants do.

There is no way the government will allow the borders to open again until a large (75%?) part of the population has been vaccinated. Bummer for anyone in this industry.

[zanthrus]

SHVC, I wouldn’t chance any of these vaccines. Better odds for survival without them!

[ScepticalOptomist]

There is no way the government will allow the borders to open again until a large (75%?) part of the population has been vaccinated. Bummer for anyone in this industry.

Not true.

Idea already being touted about ensuring “the most at risk” are vaccinated - ie those certain age demographics / with pre existing conditions. Once those are vaccinated, country will be ok to open as there should be very little risk of death amongst the remaining population.

Glad to see we are finally moving away from a zero risk approach.

Those saying this hiccup will push the borders opening up 6-12 months back will be pleasantly surprised.

Stay positive! There’s an awful lot of gleeful negativity on here..

[Potsie Weber]

Why not go one step further and point out that from a risk view point, it is better for under 50’s to be unvaccinated than take this AZ vaccine (with a very rare side effect). Its was always the case that vaccines are developed to prevent the population from contracting a disease with significant health effects. This has never been the case for COVID and the younger/healthy group of the population.

Not really. The IFR in the UK for the age group 15-44 before the vaccine was 0.03%. To date, 6.7 million under 50’s in the UK have had the first AZ jab and there have been 11 under 50’s blood clot deaths possibly linked to the vaccine or 0.00016418%.

So if you are under 50, you are 182 times more likely to die if get COVID than you are from blood clot from the vaccine.

[ruprecht]

So if you are under 50, you are 182 times more likely to die if get COVID than you are from blood clot from the vaccine.

...and if covid was running rampant in this country you’d have a point. But it’s not, so people are looking at choosing between two vaccines, not between a vaccine and covid.

Yes, yes, people are dumb and don’t understand maths, but the damage is done. AZ is damaged goods.

[Foxxster]

...and if covid was running rampant in this country you’d have a point. But it’s not, so people are looking at choosing between two vaccines, not between a vaccine and covid.

Yes, yes, people are dumb and don’t understand maths, but the damage is done. AZ is damaged goods.

can’t help thinking at least some of that damage was deliberately done by the EU for political reasons. Of which there are potentially many.

seems a huge over reaction though. Also the adverse reactions from the other vaccines seems to not receive any mention.

[compressor stall]

I'd have thought those who have been poo poo-ing the death rate of COVID and bellyaching to open up the economy due to the economic impacts would be pushing for all to take the AZ vaccine ASAP with its known 200,000 times less death rate than getting COVID and get the borders open and our industry running again....

[rattman]

I'd have thought those who have been poo poo-ing the death rate of COVID and bellyaching to open up the economy due to the economic impacts would be pushing for all to take the AZ vaccine ASAP with its known 200,000 times less death rate than getting COVID and get the borders open and our industry running again....

I know someone in 1a, hes medical proffessional was supposed to get jab this morning. They refused as hes under 50. He even offered to a write a stat dec as well as the medical consent saying he understood the risks. No dice he having to wait till xxxxxxx, hes not even sure if he allowed to work anymore as he works in aged care

[Troo believer]

Not true.

Idea already being touted about ensuring “the most at risk” are vaccinated - ie those certain age demographics / with pre existing conditions. Once those are vaccinated, country will be ok to open as there should be very little risk of death amongst the remaining population.

Glad to see we are finally moving away from a zero risk approach.

Those saying this hiccup will push the borders opening up 6-12 months back will be pleasantly surprised.

Stay positive! There’s an awful lot of gleeful negativity on here..
Nicely put. Yes some take delight in watching others struggle. Walking back the risk rhetoric is going to take time. The media can’t get enough bad news at the moment now that Trump has gone. They’re in need of another news bite to keep the masses dialled in. ABC news has gone down hill big time. Just another source peddling drama, death and tragedy.

[601]

ABC news has gone down hill big time. Just another source peddling drama, death and tragedy.

It got somewhat monotonous today on local ABC.
6am till 8am presenter banging on about how we are doomed.
AM at 8am same.
9am til 10 am same. Repeat of the interviews broadcast between 6 and 8am
Midday til 12:30pm same.

Don't know if logical thinking and digesting what the Feds actually released was even considered by the presenters.
I guess it was the emotional side of the presenters showing rather than the analytical side.

[rcoight]

It got somewhat monotonous today on local ABC.
6am till 8am presenter banging on about how we are doomed.
AM at 8am same.
9am til 10 am same. Repeat of the interviews broadcast between 6 and 8am
Midday til 12:30pm same.

Don't know if logical thinking and digesting what the Feds actually released was even considered by the presenters.
I guess it was the emotional side of the presenters showing rather than the analytical side.

Our taxes at work. The ABC is a joke.

[JJ 789]

I know someone in 1a, hes medical proffessional was supposed to get jab this morning. They refused as hes under 50. He even offered to a write a stat dec as well as the medical consent saying he understood the risks. No dice he having to wait till xxxxxxx, hes not even sure if he allowed to work anymore as he works in aged care

He'll be okay in regards to his job. It isn't compulsory. My partner is an aged carer and she and three quarters of the carers at the particular home declined the vaccine last month. They'll need flu vax however like last year.

[dr dre]

Here’s the latest ABC News (https://search-beta.abc.net.au/index.html?siteTitle=news#/?configure%5BgetRankingInfo%5D=true&configure%5BclickAnalytics%5D=true&configure%5BuserToken%5D=anonymous-20ce0f9d-8a19-443b-b506-d79cf1f8efd4&configure%5BhitsPerPage%5D=10&query=AstraZeneca&page=2) articles on the AZ rollout decision, for the most part I say their reporting is straightforward, emotionless and rational. Wouldn’t expect anything less.

If you want emotion and fear try the Daily Mail or similar where they randomly CAPITALISE words to evoke a REACTION in their readers.

As far as this decision goes yes it is a setback, but there are some positive points to remember. First off the AZ vaccine is still being administered to the critical group, over 50s. Whether or not over 50s now wish to take AZ is debatable, however I believe a majority will follow the advice of their GP over tabloid media. Most Australians have a lot of respect for the advice given by their trusted GP. The use of Pfizer or Novavax for under 50s will take longer, but they’re not as critical and weren’t going to be eligible for a few months anyway. Although Australia has ordered more Pfizer than originally planned it won’t arrive until later in the year. Will the October goal still be reached? Possibly, but more probably not. It shouldn’t delay the overall timeline by more than a few months I’d imagine.

You can monitor Australia’s administered vaccine doses here (thanks ABC!) (https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-02/charting-australias-covid-vaccine-rollout/13197518?nw=0), there’s some differences in daily reported numbers due to reporting methods of each jurisdiction, so look at the moving average. It has been trending down over the last few days but that would probably be more to the Easter long weekend. If there’s any significant drop off in AZ uptake it’ll be observed in the upcoming weeks.

It’s obvious the Federal government shouldn’t have put all the eggs in the AZ basket and should’ve been more flexible with options. They can’t say they weren’t warned..... (https://www.themandarin.com.au/147622-astrazeneca-australia-vaccine/)

[ScepticalOptomist]

Agree with the gist of your post except for this:

Here’s the latest ABC News (https://search-beta.abc.net.au/index.html?siteTitle=news#/?configure%5BgetRankingInfo%5D=true&configure%5BclickAnalytics%5D=true&configure%5BuserToken%5D=anonymous-20ce0f9d-8a19-443b-b506-d79cf1f8efd4&configure%5BhitsPerPage%5D=10&query=AstraZeneca&page=2) articles on the AZ rollout decision, for the most part I say their reporting is straightforward, emotion less and rational. Wouldn’t expect anything less.


The ABC have gone downhill badly - their reporting is usually terrible with only the occasional report being of “neutral” tone.

[Icarus2001]

Dr Dre, I used to be very ABC centric in my news consumption but now find it so obviously skewed. If you really think that they are straight down the line can I ask you to consider Dr Norman Swan and his comments....

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6247929006001

Just have a listen to his tone and how wrong he has been.

[dr dre]

Oh jeez you’re going to try and convince me the ABC are terrible by bringing up one of the most pompous blowhards in Australian media, Chris Kenny. An ex LNP spin doctor vs a qualified medical professional.

I have my own thoughts about why Chris Kenny and his Sky News mates have a personal vendetta against Norman Swan, but that’s beyond the scope of this thread.

Reality is we’re in a precarious situation with this nation’s vaccine rollout, although there are some hopeful signs any further bungles could see the public confidence wane.

[Icarus2001]

Perhaps you could watch the clip and see how bad Swans predictions have been and watch him totally contradict himself about wearing masks. You know, with an open mind and all that?

Kenny is not claiming to be a medical professional, as you know, he is pointing out Swans bias.

[Transition Layer]

He'll be okay in regards to his job. It isn't compulsory. My partner is an aged carer and she and three quarters of the carers at the particular home declined the vaccine last month. They'll need flu vax however like last year.

What hope have we got when 75% of aged carers are saying no? And reportedly 50% of hotel quarantine workers. :rolleyes:

[ruprecht]

What hope have we got when 75% of aged carers are saying no? And reportedly 50% of hotel quarantine workers. :rolleyes:
Most aged care workers are well under 50 from my observations.

Maybe they just made a decision about the AZ vaccine before the government did? It didn’t help that aged care workers were supposed to get the Pfizer vaccine en masse as a part of 1a, and then the govt turned around and told them to make their own arrangements with their GP.

[dr dre]

What hope have we got when 75% of aged carers are saying no? And reportedly 50% of hotel quarantine workers. :rolleyes:

Don’t despair just yet.

The numbers are a little higher than reported (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/02/australias-covid-vaccine-rollout-in-aged-care-labelled-a-shemozzle). 2/3rds in WA and that was over a week ago. With these groups getting priority access to Pfizer if under 50 we should be very close to the point that all workers coming in contact with the quarantined will be vaccinated. Or at least the remaining necessary workers will be required to undertake vaccination. I think Victoria is at that point now.

[LapSap]

He'll be okay in regards to his job. It isn't compulsory. My partner is an aged carer and she and three quarters of the carers at the particular home declined the vaccine last month. They'll need flu vax however like last year.

Why do they need the flu vax?

[ruprecht]

Why do they need the flu vax?
Because it is a condition of employment at most (if not all) nursing homes.

[LapSap]

Because it is a condition of employment at most (if not all) nursing homes.

Thank you. I was being deliberately obtuse.
In that case, why allow them to forego having a Covid shot?
What would they do if it was also made a condition of employment?
I’m quite staggered that 3/4 of them can just say no.

Btw, has anybody got figures on the clotting rate of the flu vaccination? Apologies if posted before - I may have missed them.

[Fonz121]

What hope have we got when 75% of aged carers are saying no? And reportedly 50% of hotel quarantine workers. :rolleyes:

Maybe everyone should have to sign a vaccine refusal document so when we do open up they can't bitch and moan if they get it.

[Keg]

Maybe everyone should have to sign a vaccine refusal document so when we do open up they can't bitch and moan if they get it.

Part of me wants the government to say that they’ll have enough vaccines to have everyone vaccinated by (insert date.... perhaps 1 Feb 22). After that date the international borders are open to those vaccinated. If you’re an Aussie and not Covid vaccinated by then we’re not closing down the economy or any state borders if any locals happen to get Covid from an international arrival.

[zanthrus]

The Govt can shove their COVID shots up there ass!
No just Fark NO!!!!

[morno]

The Govt can shove their COVID shots up there ass!
No just Fark NO!!!!

Why? I’ve had mine, bit of a headache and some sore muscles, I’m fine.

[SHVC]

While blood clots have been recorded from using AZ which is a rare. Blood clotting affect 1 in 1000 women using contraceptive, guess we better ban those as well.

Australia is an embarrassing nanny state.

[galdian]

Amazes me the people crapping on about international borders are concerned about people departing Oz.
The ONLY question has to be about the people inbound and the requirements/protocols the Feds will establish.

By good luck or good management (I'd take the former primarily!) Oz by location has had as good a run than anywhere else in the world and better than most.
Open the international borders and that will change, anyone with half a brain can see this whole CV19 has been two steps forward/one step back, guess your own timeline but I'd say at least another year before there's less "one step back" but your figure will depend on your personality.

And please don't do a dr dre and drag out millions of reports/states - just look at the reality of the vaccine rollout and the number of people who proclaimed "vaccines a-coming, everything will be OK, International borders open in a few months." Really?

Tell me about what will happen, how it will be controlled, on a State and Fed level when the new inbound travellers start CV clusters whether they do so with intent (false papers if vaccine certificates are required) or unintentionally (the one in xxx who tested negative but becomes positive.)

[Foxxster]

While blood clots have been recorded from using AZ which is a rare. Blood clotting affect 1 in 1000 women using contraceptive, guess we better ban those as well.

Australia is an embarrassing nanny state.

while it seems an over reaction, Australia is far from being alone in its response to the AZ vaccine. in fact many countries have gone much further. There are also reports of other side effects.


UK reporting site for adverse reactions

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions

[ruprecht]

Amazes me the people crapping on about international borders are concerned about people departing Oz.
The ONLY question has to be about the people inbound and the requirements/protocols the Feds will establish.

By good luck or good management (I'd take the former primarily!) Oz by location has had as good a run than anywhere else in the world and better than most.
Open the international borders and that will change, anyone with half a brain can see this whole CV19 has been two steps forward/one step back, guess your own timeline but I'd say at least another year before there's less "one step back" but your figure will depend on your personality.

And please don't do a dr dre and drag out millions of reports/states - just look at the reality of the vaccine rollout and the number of people who proclaimed "vaccines a-coming, everything will be OK, International borders open in a few months." Really?

Tell me about what will happen, how it will be controlled, on a State and Fed level when the new inbound travellers start CV clusters whether they do so with intent (false papers if vaccine certificates are required) or unintentionally (the one in xxx who tested negative but becomes positive.)

Don’t forget to add a federal election into the mix. I can’t see them calling an election this year now that the vaccine rollout has been delayed, so that leaves 2022 to get the majority vaccinated and the borders open.

[SHVC]

International travel other than NZ maybe FiJi will not even happen in 2022.

There are side effects with any vaccine and risk accosiated taking them the majority are small proportionate to amount that is administered in a population. AZ like all C-19 vaccines are just under a bigger microscope than others and it seems like C-19 cases the general population and governments in Australia only a zero risk is the only acceptance.

Risk comes with everything we just have to accept it or wrap yourself in Cotten and stay home, actually don’t as even your house may fall down.

[Foxxster]

International travel other than NZ maybe FiJi will not even happen in 2022.

There are side effects with any vaccine and risk accosiated taking them the majority are small proportionate to amount that is administered in a population. AZ like all C-19 vaccines are just under a bigger microscope than others and it seems like C-19 cases the general population and governments in Australia only a zero risk is the only acceptance.

Risk comes with everything we just have to accept it or wrap yourself in Cotten and stay home, actually don’t as even your house may fall down.


maybe 2024..Economist Chris Richardson has warned international travel for Australians is likely to remain restrictive until 2024.

The Deloitte Access Economics partner in his quarterly business outlook said he expects international borders will re-open only gradually.

For Australia, there will be some sort of quarantine remaining for incoming travellers for some time.

"That keeps international travel - both inbound and outbound - pretty weak in 2022, and it may not return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024," he said.

[SHVC]

AJ seems to be pressing on tho, good hopefully it happens.

Qantas holds firm on international travel plan

Qantas is holding firm on its planned return to regular international services on October 31, despite the Prime Minister’s admission the majority of Australians will not be vaccinated against COVID-19 until 2022.

The airline announced in February international flights would recommence to most of its pre-COVID destinations in late October instead of July, based on the federal government’s vaccination program.

At the time, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce said the airline would require passengers on all but domestic and trans-Tasman flights to be vaccinated for their own safety as well as that of crew.

In a statement released late Monday, Qantas said they were “closely monitoring the recent developments in the rollout of vaccines in Australia”.

“The government has not updated its timeline for the effective completion of the vaccine rollout and at this stage there’s no change to the planned restart of our international flights,” said a Qantas spokeswoman.

“We’ll continue to have dialogue with the government.”

It follows the revelation last week there was a small risk of blood clots developing as a result of the AstraZeneca vaccination, prompting a recommendation for people under 50 to discuss the issue with their doctor.

On Friday Scott Morrison announced his government had secured an extra 20 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine, but they would not arrive until the last quarter of 2021.

[jrfsp]

There is nothing stopping them flying if they want to - why October, why not now? Nothing much will change between now and then.

[ruprecht]

So, the rollout has been delayed. That should give us plenty of time to figure out what we do once everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated. Personally, I think that once we reach that point then borders need to reopen to vaccinated travellers - otherwise what’s the point of getting vaccinated?

[Troo believer]

From Melbourne University
https://medicine.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/3766883/Melbourne-Childrens-Campus-Weekly-COVID-19-Vaccine-Updates-8-April-2021.pdf

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/b84bbc66_5530_4c8d_bd03_6bb9afc07a39_7815d2ccfad1a3f8f57f73d 030b30d43105d14a1.png

[SOPS]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-13/who-warns-covid-pandemic-growing-exponentially/100065224

This is from the people who told us, at first, there was nothing to worry about.😷

[Australopithecus]

Well, at first there was nothing to worry about. Stage 3 clinical trials can only be so big, and a risk that is 1:200,000 at worst isn’t likely to appear until after widespread use. Even then, its still a pretty tiny risk for something that could prevent a far worse outcome.

Would you refuse an AZ jab if you lived anywhere but the A-NZ bubble?

[SHVC]

Nope! I’ve had AZ the risk is of blood clots is less than the risk my wife takes taking contraceptive.

[Dannyboy39]

maybe 2024..Economist Chris Richardson has warned international travel for Australians is likely to remain restrictive until 2024.

The Deloitte Access Economics partner in his quarterly business outlook said he expects international borders will re-open only gradually.

For Australia, there will be some sort of quarantine remaining for incoming travellers for some time.

"That keeps international travel - both inbound and outbound - pretty weak in 2022, and it may not return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024," he said.
And the Australian people are putting up with this?

[ruprecht]

And the Australian people are putting up with this?
I think at the moment we’re trying to get through this vaccination debacle first.

[Angle of Attack]

I think the elephant in the room is most other democracies are ramping up for Quarantine free travel within months, not years. “First in line for vaccines?” Morrison has just showed his true self, a knifer that backstabbed a fellow politician. These idiots face a dramatic fall, not if but when, I think it will be soon. They will be pulled with the rest of the world into opening international travel. The sad fact is we are below the half way mark against all worldwide countries on vaccination rates. “ First in line!” Scotty from marketing is about to see the result of being an incompetent idiot.

[SOPS]

I think the elephant in the room is most other democracies are ramping up for Quarantine free travel within months, not years. “First in line for vaccines?” Morrison has just showed his true self, a knifer that backstabbed a fellow politician. These idiots face a dramatic fall, not if but when, I think it will be soon. They will be pulled with the rest of the world into opening international travel. The sad fact is we are below the half way mark against all worldwide countries on vaccination rates. “ First in line!” Scotty from marketing is about to see the result of being an incompetent idiot.

I think you are dreaming. Election due in the next 12 months ( approx).. you really think they will open the borders and let it rip.. while we live almost Covid free? I don’t think so.

[ruprecht]

I think you are dreaming. Election due in the next 12 months ( approx).. you really think they will open the borders and let it rip.. while we live almost Covid free? I don’t think so.
Every decision will be made with the election in mind.

Can’t call it now because they stuffed up the vaccine rollout.

Can’t leave it to the last minute because that gives the impression that they’re just hanging on hoping things will get better.

Greg Hunt has come out and said that even if we all get the vaccine, that doesn’t mean the borders will open. He is making the case for the poor vaccine rollout: “you still wouldn’t be going anywhere even if we hadn’t stuffed it up, so really our delay is of no consequence.”

Managing expectations - isn’t that what Scotty from Marketing is good at? It will be very interesting to see if the LNP use the “keeping us all safe” line that McGowan used to get back into power.

[patty50]

People are going to vote based on the fact that their relatives in their 70s and 80s haven’t died of COVID rather than obsessing over a lack of international travel. Who cares about travel when your destination is locked down anyway.

Most people aren’t that keen for the vaccine anyway and don’t care it’s being delayed.

[highflyer40]

I think the elephant in the room is most other democracies are ramping up for Quarantine free travel within months, not years. “First in line for vaccines?” Morrison has just showed his true self, a knifer that backstabbed a fellow politician. These idiots face a dramatic fall, not if but when, I think it will be soon. They will be pulled with the rest of the world into opening international travel. The sad fact is we are below the half way mark against all worldwide countries on vaccination rates. “ First in line!” Scotty from marketing is about to see the result of being an incompetent idiot.

That is cherry picking at its finest. Most are ramping up for quarantine free travel? Yes, to a handful of places no one wants to travel to anyways. This is at least another 12 - 18 months off until the places people actually want to travel to are all at the same level.

For the UK the places that are soon to be on the green list are Isreal and Gibraltar. Those two sought after summer holiday destinations.

[Foxxster]

That is cherry picking at its finest. Most are ramping up for quarantine free travel? Yes, to a handful of places no one wants to travel to anyways. This is at least another 12 - 18 months off until the places people actually want to travel to are all at the same level.

For the UK the places that are soon to be on the green list are Isreal and Gibraltar. Those two sought after summer holiday destinations.


this. There have been plenty of warnings recently. Listen to what the experts are saying. This year is written off. 2022 is questionable, limited travel bubbles, we might be at 50% by the end of 2022. The head of retail at Sydney airport has said they don’t expect normal travel numbers for at least a couple of years. I posted his comment before. Also posted was Chris Richardson from Deloitte ..

For Australia, some form of quarantine will remain for some incoming travellers for some time," Deloitte partner Chris Richardson wrote.
"That keeps international travel (both inbound and outbound) pretty weak in 2022, and it may not return to pre-pandemic levels until 2024."
Much of Mr Richardson's forecasts rely on the speed of Australia's COVID-19 vaccination rollout, which he predicts to overtake that of the virus mutating.
"Central to the speed of that grind will be the ongoing tug-of-war between mutations and vaccinations," he wrote.
"But we continue to see vaccinations as the more likely winner of that struggle.
"So although some pain will linger – particularly as the mutations mean international borders will remain less-than-fully open for longer – most of Australia's economy looks on course to be close to pre-pandemic normal by Christmas 2021."

[ruprecht]

Deloitte
I asked an umbrella salesman for a weather forecast. He said it was going to rain. :p

[SOPS]

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/covid19-vaccine-wont-guarantee-the-return-of-international-travel/news-story/4316d15554490c3d5796ab9e6c2a615a

Don’t hold your breath !!

[Foxxster]

I asked an umbrella salesman for a weather forecast. He said it was going to rain. :p

well maybe you can provide a better source then. . And I think Richardson’s credentials are somewhat better than yours on this kind of matter....as is the head of retail at Sydney airport. After all they would be trying to be positive and be optimistic in their forecasts if anything. They have nothing to gain by painting a overly pessimistic picture of the future of international aviation.

Meanwhile the federal health minister says this, as per the link posted in the post above. Got a smart arse response to that.

Australia may not open up its borders even after everyone in the country has been vaccinated against coronavirus (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/coronavirus/index.html) in an attempt to sustain its 'Zero Covid' strategy, the country's health minister has revealed.

'Vaccination alone is no guarantee that you can open up,' Greg Hunt said on Tuesday. 'If the whole country were vaccinated, you couldn't just open the borders.'

The health minister cited a range of other relevant factors, including transmissibility and the longevity of vaccine protection.

[wheels_down]

It’s clear we need to cycle the Vaccine 1.0 this year and lower the cases.

Next year Vaccine 2.0 and continue to push the herd immunity card. Many countries will get there and the trialing of opening up countries to each other will commence.

2023 onwards we can start pulling the walls down across the world.

December 2023 the majority of the world can open up. The hard work has been done.

It will die off throughout the years of 2024/25. Those poverty stricken countries will finally catch up.

[Dannyboy39]

I really wouldn’t want to tell Aussies how to run their country, but this is total insanity isn’t it?

[SOPS]

I really wouldn’t want to tell Aussies how to run their country, but this is total insanity isn’t it?

I would actually call over 100000 dead in the UK total insanity.

[Foxxster]

I really wouldn’t want to tell Aussies how to run their country, but this is total insanity isn’t it?

speaking of insanity, this whole thing has been insane ..Nearly a quarter of registered Covid-19 deaths are now people who are not being killed by the virus, new official figures show as Boris Johnson (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/boris_johnson/index.html) comes under renewed pressure from Tory backbenchers to end the third lockdown (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/coronavirus-lockdowns/index.html)sooner than planned.

The latest data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) reveals that 23 per cent of coronavirus (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/coronavirus/index.html) deaths which are registered are now people who have died 'with' the disease rather than 'from' an infection.

This means that the person who has died will have tested positive for Covid-19 at some point, but that the disease was not recorded as the victim's primary cause of death on their death certificate.

[jrfsp]

I think the UKs open border let it rip policy was total insanity. Even now the UK Gov is not committing to when it will allow overseas travel.

Australia's & NZs closed border has been politically and economically hugely successful in comparison to just about anywhere else.

[Dannyboy39]

I would actually call over 100000 dead in the UK total insanity.
This always seems to be the comeback. A tragedy yes, but only 1 in 5 deaths last year were caused by Covid - not that this is of any solace. We are now below our average death rate. Some people would’ve died last year anyway, not that I’m attempting to justify these numbers of course.

But this policy that Australia is following is reliant on the likes of Bolsonaro actually taking Covid seriously, otherwise Brazil will just become a hotbed for variants. Africa will probably never become fully vaccinated. India will probably only vaccinated a quarter of their huge population this year. China and their vaccine diplomacy seems to have totally tanked. Russia and it’s questionable vaccine supplies.

If Australia goes down this road, they will never reopen - and news flash, there won’t be the need for any long haul pilots anymore. This smacks of scare tactics - the same messages of vaccinations not the only answer coming out of other countries in the last 1-2 days too.

[ruprecht]

Meanwhile the federal health minister says this, as per the link posted in the post above. Got a smart arse response to that.
Yes, back in post #4344... keep up old boy. :)

As for Deloitte, I think they have a vested interest in a pessimistic outlook, given that they also provide consultancy services on how to manage COVID-19.

“We had a focus group with Deloitte, they recommended more focus groups...:p”

That being said, I can’t recall the federal govt using the term ‘Zero Covid Strategy’ before this announcement. It appears as if the election campaign has begun.

[Dannyboy39]

I think the UKs open border let it rip policy was total insanity. Even now the UK Gov is not committing to when it will allow overseas travel.

Australia's & NZs closed border has been politically and economically hugely successful in comparison to just about anywhere else.
To a point you are correct, but it was also Hobson’s choice. In early March 2020, probably around 4-5 million UK citizens were overseas working or living outside the country (including myself working). Testing was also poor in every country outside China and no one had much of an idea what they were dealing with.

The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe and has one of the most densely populated aviation systems in the world in London. Closing the border to all and sundry would not have prevented the virus coming in, just slowed it down by 24 hours (those words a direct quote from our CMO).

If they had just slammed the door shut, what would’ve happened? Where would these people have gone (ah, do what Australia did).

[blubak]

And the Australian people are putting up with this?
We have put up with a lot,particularly here in victoria so in reality i dont think its a great problem for the majority of aussies if they cant leave the country for a year or 2.
What is far more important in my opinion is that we can lead a pretty normal life,get the economy going again & do most things that we enjoy.
Being able to travel overseas for 2 or 3 weeks a year does not compensate in any way for being lockrd down for days,weeks or months.

[ScepticalOptomist]

We have put up with a lot,particularly here in victoria so in reality i dont think its a great problem for the majority of aussies if they cant leave the country for a year or 2.
What is far more important in my opinion is that we can lead a pretty normal life,get the economy going again & do most things that we enjoy.
Being able to travel overseas for 2 or 3 weeks a year does not compensate in any way for being lockrd down for days,weeks or months.

I take it you’re not an international airline pilot then? Perhaps if your livelihood had been stripped you’d think differently?

[Keg]

We have put up with a lot,particularly here in victoria so in reality i dont think its a great problem for the majority of aussies if they cant leave the country for a year or 2.

What Victorians went through is terrible. It should never have happened. However your fear of future lockdowns should not create an imposition on the rest of us who want to be able to travel without unreasonable restrictions. It is not right to keep people locked up in their own country when they’ve taken reasonable precautions and wish to travel.

[ozbiggles]

What are these reasonable precautions you are going to take that guarantees you won’t bring the virus back in the next say 6-12 months?
Has there been some announcement that the vaccine will prevent transmission and knowledge of how long it is effective for?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Has there been some announcement that the vaccine will prevent transmission and knowledge of how long it is effective for?

Yes. Preliminary data indicates the vaccines do prevent transmission as well as negating the effects of the disease. How long it’s effective for is yet to be determined, however the vaccines seem to be doing better than expected.

[neville_nobody]

Reality is the Liberal Party have nothing to lose federally by just using McGowans playbook with the International borders. If they were to open up and the virus gets into a Labor state they will just lock everyone up and blame the Federal Government. So they really have nothing to lose unless there is consensus from all the State governments on how to deal with international travellers importing the virus.

[Derfred]

What Victorians went through is terrible. It should never have happened. However your fear of future lockdowns should not create an imposition on the rest of us who want to be able to travel without unreasonable restrictions. It is not right to keep people locked up in their own country when they’ve taken reasonable precautions and wish to travel.

What Victorians went through was an example of what happens when you let the virus into the wild. It only takes one or two unchecked to let it rip. About 800 people died.

Now you call for relaxation of international border restrictions.

I’m very interested in these reasonable precautions you speak of, and how exactly you intend to determine who amongst us will or won’t take these reasonable precautions.

The whole Sydney Northern Beaches outbreak was allegedly caused by certain “exempt” folks who were expected, or “trusted” to take reasonable precautions. And didn’t.

[601]

consensus from all the State governments
Another coffee spilling moment.

[blubak]

I take it you’re not an international airline pilot then? Perhaps if your livelihood had been stripped you’d think differently?
No,im not an international pilot & your comment is 100% correct-no argument there however is there an answer that suits everybody?
I see today there are 5 new cases in vic hotel quarantine so obviously theres lots of it outside our border.
Do you open up & ignore whats coming in?
What is acceptable?

[Foxxster]

Release from Qantas this morning.

https://cdn-api.markitdigital.com/apiman-gateway/CommSec/commsec-node-api/1.0/event/document/1410-02363725-23UNI2MLQSDUT9GNASTDFOA354/pdf?access_token=0007Qj6g5L1kwgjW6FG0Biigg3B3

[aviation_enthus]

What are these reasonable precautions you are going to take that guarantees you won’t bring the virus back in the next say 6-12 months?
Has there been some announcement that the vaccine will prevent transmission and knowledge of how long it is effective for?

- wearing a mask in all public places (like pretty much every country outside of Aus/NZ requires)

- sanitising/washing hands frequently

- COVID tests on departure from overseas

- BEING VACCINATED

But if you want a 100% “gold standard” guarantee that no one will bring the virus back, it doesn’t exist.

But if you are seriously saying ZERO cases is the only solution for Australia, that’s completely unrealistic and a massive overreaction to the threat.

IF, the effectiveness of vaccines drives down the rates of hospitalisation and mortality to the point it’s close to a normal influenza outbreak, isn’t that good enough to get back to normal?!!

Current real world data (in Israel and soon to follow USA/UK) shows these vaccines work. Dramatically lower rates of hospitalisation and mortality means the vast majority of people are safe from COVID.

But expecting ZERO cases to be the end goal, is just utterly ridiculous.

[aviation_enthus]

Just to add...

- 1/3rd of Australians are born overseas.

- in a normal year, up to 1 Million Australians live overseas.

The issues with the border closure has NEVER been about going to Bali or skiing in NZ. Honestly we can all survive for 12-24 months without that.

But what it does affect is the millions of Australians with family on another side of the closed border. This policy has been poorly handled from the start. There are many examples of better quarantine systems (Taiwan, Singapore, NZ to name a few) that still provide protection for the local population.

This policy isn’t sustainable. It’s unreasonable to expect Australians to cop it for 2-3 years.

If you don’t have family overseas or back in Australia, I’m sorry but you just don’t get it. It’s NOT about “going on holiday”....

[ElZilcho]

What Victorians went through was an example of what happens when you let the virus into the wild. It only takes one or two unchecked to let it rip. About 800 people died.

Now you call for relaxation of international border restrictions.

I’m very interested in these reasonable precautions you speak of, and how exactly you intend to determine who amongst us will or won’t take these reasonable precautions.

The whole Sydney Northern Beaches outbreak was allegedly caused by certain “exempt” folks who were expected, or “trusted” to take reasonable precautions. And didn’t.

Unless COVID Mutates and dies out, it's not going anywhere. Just like the Flu.
The Vaccines, in theory, will reduce the spread and the effects enough, that it wont overwhelm the Health Systems. People will still catch it, spread it and die from it. Same as all the other Viruses we've learned to live with.

The World has put it's faith in the Vaccines, and with it, the loosening of travel restrictions will follow. The Media needs to stop making it front page news everytime there's a positive case because it's giving people the impression that Zero COVID is an achievable goal long term. It's not... Globally, we passed the point of no return over 6 months ago.

Many of us chose to get Vaccinated, others didn't. Each to their own. But when the World gets back to normal, there will be very little sympathy for Anti-Vaxxers demanding borders be closed again when COVID creeps back into NZ/AUS. Unless we get lucky with a Vaccine that can actually eliminates it (doubtful), it's going to be with us just like Flu.

[ruprecht]

“Flatten the Curve” seems like so long ago.

[turbantime]

Unless COVID Mutates and dies out, it's not going anywhere. Just like the Flu.
The Vaccines, in theory, will reduce the spread and the effects enough, that it wont overwhelm the Health Systems. People will still catch it, spread it and die from it. Same as all the other Viruses we've learned to live with.

The World has put it's faith in the Vaccines, and with it, the loosening of travel restrictions will follow. The Media needs to stop making it front page news everytime there's a positive case because it's giving people the impression that Zero COVID is an achievable goal long term. It's not... Globally, we passed the point of no return over 6 months ago.

Many of us chose to get Vaccinated, others didn't. Each to their own. But when the World gets back to normal, there will be very little sympathy for Anti-Vaxxers demanding borders be closed again when COVID creeps back into NZ/AUS. Unless we get lucky with a Vaccine that can actually eliminates it (doubtful), it's going to be with us just like Flu.

Preach! The sooner people understand this the better. There is never going to be a Covid zero, ever. Unless we want to become a hermit nation disconnected from the global economy (which the anti-vaxxers won’t mind).

[neville_nobody]

Many of us chose to get Vaccinated, others didn't. Each to their own. But when the World gets back to normal, there will be very little sympathy for Anti-Vaxxers demanding borders be closed again when COVID creeps back into NZ/AUS. Unless we get lucky with a Vaccine that can actually eliminates it (doubtful), it's going to be with us just like Flu.

It's not the anti-vaxers, it's the Politicians that need convincing. And to convince them you need to convince the general public. Unless the politicians know there won't be a complete wipe-out of their party come election time nothing will be changing in this country.

[ruprecht]

It's not the anti-vaxers, it's the Politicians that need convincing. And to convince them you need to convince the general public. Unless the politicians know there won't be a complete wipe-out of their party come election time nothing will be changing in this country.
Exactly.

Every decision that the government makes will be with the next election in mind, and there are a lot of voters who live in the same state as all their relatives. We are a victim of our own success - any relaxing of the borders will be seen as killing Aunty Gladys.

[Foxxster]

I posted the wrong link re the Qantas announcement.

correct one.
Highlights
QANTAS GROUP RECOVERY GATHERS SPEED
• Group Domestic capacity increasing beyond previous estimates to reach 90 per cent of pre-COVID levels in Q4 FY21; Jetstar to exceed 100 per cent due to strong leisure demand.
• All Qantas and Jetstar domestic crew now back at work.
• Recovery strategy puts short term focus on cash positive flying over profit margins – meaning more low
fares to help drive demand.
• Continuing to target resumption of rest of international network from late October; continued flexibility
for customers.
• Premium international lounges in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane to reopen.
• New deal signed with Accor


https://investor.qantas.com/DownloadFile.axd?file=/Report/ComNews/20210415/02363725.pdf

[Asturias56]

" Preliminary data indicates the vaccines do prevent transmission as well as negating the effects of the disease. How long it’s effective for is yet to be determined, however the vaccines seem to be doing better than expected."

evidence from the UK (now 32.3 million first jabs and 8.1 million second jabs) shows that the even a single shot reduces transmission (as well as infection) and lasts at least 3 months, a second jab improves things and after 6 months show s no sign of diminution in effect. They also seem to be effective against the new variants. There are indications that the Pfizer and the Astra Zeneca trigger different parts of the immune system and they are running trails to see if, in the long run, getting a mixture of vaccination types may up the protection even further.

The dramatic fall in cases and hospitalisations was initially due to the severe lockdown but now you can see the vaccine affect - old people are no longer the majority of either hospital cases or new cases

[ANstar]

Just to add...

- 1/3rd of Australians are born overseas.

- in a normal year, up to 1 Million Australians live overseas.

The issues with the border closure has NEVER been about going to Bali or skiing in NZ. Honestly we can all survive for 12-24 months without that.

But what it does affect is the millions of Australians with family on another side of the closed border. This policy has been poorly handled from the start. There are many examples of better quarantine systems (Taiwan, Singapore, NZ to name a few) that still provide protection for the local population.

This policy isn’t sustainable. It’s unreasonable to expect Australians to cop it for 2-3 years.

If you don’t have family overseas or back in Australia, I’m sorry but you just don’t get it. It’s NOT about “going on holiday”....

But holidays are still a part of it. I know several Aussies with dual nationality who live in Europe and chose to come "home" and 2 weeks quarantine in December. They then spent 6-8 weeks in Australia during summer before going back to Europe.

[ruprecht]

Looks like the PM is going full McGowan for the election:

But he said the nation had become used to dealing with no cases and opening the borders would end the national cabinet’s stated goal of zero community transmission of COVID-19.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/incursion-opening-international-borders-would-see-1000-cases-per-week-says-morrison-20210415-p57jmo.html

...and surprise, surprise. A goal of ‘zero community transmission’ means the vaccine rollout timeline is unimportant. :hmm:

[neville_nobody]

I don't think he has any choice as he will be screwed either way if he doesn't have a hard border. Even if he went to a open border then lost the election, Labor would probably shut it all down anyway, if their State government policies are any indication.

[lc_461]

Looks like the PM is going full McGowan for the election:



https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/incursion-opening-international-borders-would-see-1000-cases-per-week-says-morrison-20210415-p57jmo.html

...and surprise, surprise. A goal of ‘zero community transmission’ means the vaccine rollout timeline is unimportant. :hmm:


I actually don't interpret this narrative negatively. I think the past two weeks or so he has been trying to slowly and stealthily steer the long term narrative towards slowly opening up. I heard mentioned about him wanting the states to stop giving daily case number updates etc, and to agree to keep the internal borders open. For the last year, we have associated Covid with death and disaster. I think they are trying to get to the stage where the vulnerable are vaccinated and protected, so when the young get sick in general they aren't dying in overwhelming numbers... life to go on.

The challenge is the state governments (no elections to win this year..) and the media have led an absolute hysteria over every aspect of this crisis - ie the government is slammed by the media for picking a suboptimal vaccine which we could make onshore (a reasonable choice at the time), which now many don't want, and in the next breath is slammed for not having said vaccines to roll out immediately!

A challenge now will be for the government to overcome vaccine hesitancy in the population, regardless of supply bottlenecks.

[ScepticalOptomist]

" Preliminary data indicates the vaccines do prevent transmission as well as negating the effects of the disease. How long it’s effective for is yet to be determined, however the vaccines seem to be doing better than expected."

evidence from the UK (now 32.3 million first jabs and 8.1 million second jabs) shows that the even a single shot reduces transmission (as well as infection) and lasts at least 3 months, a second jab improves things and after 6 months show s no sign of diminution in effect. They also seem to be effective against the new variants. There are indications that the Pfizer and the Astra Zeneca trigger different parts of the immune system and they are running trails to see if, in the long run, getting a mixture of vaccination types may up the protection even further.

The dramatic fall in cases and hospitalisations was initially due to the severe lockdown but now you can see the vaccine affect - old people are no longer the majority of either hospital cases or new cases

It’s good to see - this year will be a better year for sure.

[zanthrus]

Covid, its just a flu. There are worse diseases out there. Life goes on. F U McClown !

[Keg]

Now you call for relaxation of international border restrictions.

There is a significant difference between closed borders as we have now and ‘sensible precautions’.


I’m very interested in these reasonable precautions you speak of, and how exactly you intend to determine who amongst us will or won’t take these reasonable precautions.

I’m vaccinated. Half my household is likewise. Why are we prohibited from travelling overseas? Some others have addressed other points.

It’s also interesting how those critical of the ‘open up’ crowd presume that it’s open slather. There are a number of steps between fully closed and ‘let it rip’. Nuance is possible in life. Just not possible in PPRUNE discussions it seems.



The whole Sydney Northern Beaches outbreak was allegedly caused by certain “exempt” folks who were expected, or “trusted” to take reasonable precautions. And didn’t.

It was caused by foreign crew ignoring their quarantine directives and lunching on the northern beaches in two different locations. Again, if the vaccine significantly decreases the chances of catching Covid (by 90%), and then when you do get it you have a milder case if not asymptomatic, and thus have a significantly lower chance of passing it on, and most of the rest of the nation is vaccinated, why are we closing the borders?

[Asturias56]

Covid, its just a flu. There are worse diseases out there. Life goes on. F U McClown !


yeah - a flu that can fill up every hospital bed in a nation in 4 weeks - I've heard from people in Spain and Italy and you really don't want to have that. All other operations cancelled, 20-30% of the patients dead, hospital staff worn to a shadow

this year, next year it'll be like the 'flu - as long as you've had your shots

[Bend alot]

Remember when a vocal group wanted us to react like Sweden?

This is on top of other restrictions they had/have. (update from 15 March 21).



Until September 2021, a temporary pandemic law ("Pandemilagen") shall apply. As a result, certain activities that are not covered by other infection control legislation can be closed or restricted.

The government has introduced a number of restrictions in connection with the pandemic law.

Until further notice, no more than eight people may be present at a public gathering or public event. The police has the right to cancel or dissolve an event that has more than eight attendees.

If a private gathering is held at an event venue, in a meeting room and at other rented premises, a maximum of eight people are allowed to attend.

An exception is made for funerals, where up to 20 participants are allowed.
If you organise an event in violation of the ban, you may face a fine or prison sentence of up to six months.

Shops, gyms, indoor sports facilities, and swimming facilities must calculate the number of visitors so that each person is given ten square meters of space. The companies must display clear signage that clarifies for visitors how many people may visit the premises at the same time. There is a further limit of 500 visitors for shops, sports facilities etc. This rule does not apply to shopping centres and malls.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Have you looked at the data in Sweden? Plenty of new cases every day, and almost no deaths arising from them.

Unfortunately we’re still hung up on numbers infected - even when that’s not translating into serious disease and death.

Some countries don’t have that luxury yet, but a lot do as they have vaccinations and most likely some level of natural immunity from not locking up so quickly.

[fl dutchman]

Dear Mr Morrison
My family are all Australian citizens.

I havent seen them for 2 years and dont know if I will ever see them again

I am fully vaccinated ( 2x doses/pfizer )

I will pay for a Covid test before departure

I will pay for a test upon arrival

I will pay for 2 weeks in a quarantine facility

I will pay for another test before being released from quarantine

Im from the UK where everyone will have one vaccine dose by July and Two by October

The number of deaths and hospital admissions have all fallen dramatically in the UK and are expected to fall further in future

Please can I come over in November.

[kiwi grey]

Dear Mr Morrison
My family are all Australian citizens.
I haven't seen them for 2 years and dont know if I will ever see them again
I am fully vaccinated ( 2x doses/pfizer )
I will pay for a Covid test before departure
I will pay for a test upon arrival
I will pay for 2 weeks in a quarantine facility
I will pay for another test before being released from quarantine
I'm from the UK where everyone will have one vaccine dose by July and Two by October
The number of deaths and hospital admissions have all fallen dramatically in the UK and are expected to fall further in future
Please can I come over in November.

No
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison ... said work was underway to open a travel bubble with Singapore, but ruled out similar pathways for Europe, the United States, India, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea and other countries with large outbreaks.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/300278510/covid19-australia-will-have-1000-cases-a-week-if-borders-are-opened-scott-morrison-warns

[Dannyboy39]

But he said the nation had become used to dealing with no cases and opening the borders would end the national cabinet’s stated goal of zero community transmission of Covid-19.

There you have it folks. 1000 cases a week equating to ~10 deaths a week from Covid before vaccination, probably 1pw after the vulnerable groups are vaccinated. Believe me this is completely unsustainable.

Also is Morrison seriously suggesting that Aus is outperforming the likes of Germany with their vaccine rollout? Saying that they were further ahead at the equivalent stage... what a load of rubbish! These qualify for being politicians?

[Global Aviator]

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/singapore-airlines-brings-boeing-737s-to-cairns-darwin?fbclid=IwAR1NYmfp8DHiVJubKcgf7-Dhrr44jnV31jALwA0ktDLEAKWmPmsgPOYTwko

[Bend alot]

Have you looked at the data in Sweden? Plenty of new cases every day, and almost no deaths arising from them.

Unfortunately we’re still hung up on numbers infected - even when that’s not translating into serious disease and death.

Some countries don’t have that luxury yet, but a lot do as they have vaccinations and most likely some level of natural immunity from not locking up so quickly.


The argument was Sweden had a blip early with aged care (and admitted it) but after that relatively no deaths.

Figures 2/10/2020____ 93,615 cases & 5,893 deaths.

Today 16/4/2021 (about 6 months) 892,480 cases & 13,761 deaths.

So almost no deaths = 7,868.

[Asturias56]

All the evidence is that when politicians get optimistic and lift the restrictions cases then hospital admissions and then deaths soar - Sweden, Chile & the UK all show this

We have to wait until about 65% of the population have had the jab to think about opening up fully - at that point the much maligned "herd immunity" actually exists

[Dannyboy39]

All the evidence is that when politicians get optimistic and lift the restrictions cases then hospital admissions and then deaths soar - Sweden, Chile & the UK all show this

We have to wait until about 65% of the population have had the jab to think about opening up fully - at that point the much maligned "herd immunity" actually exists
Where in the UK have hospital admissions or deaths soared?

Chile are also using Chinese vaccines that don’t work.

[compressor stall]

Where in the UK have hospital admissions or deaths soared?

Chile are also using Chinese vaccines that don’t work.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/920x2000/2f3699f9_5c73_49ee_8e06_c945d9225313_effa627ea27026afc1cce93 cb58fb60d37653cbd.png

[Bend alot]

Where in the UK have hospital admissions or deaths soared?

Chile are also using Chinese vaccines that don’t work.

UK are sitting in the World # 6 in cases, and # 4 in deaths - has it been just consistent?

[fl dutchman]

If you look at that graph you may notice that since January when the vaccine rollout started the number of patients admitted has fallen dramatically. So has deaths.
Still some way to go before vaccination is complete which will reduce numbers further.

Yes the number of cases /deaths etc may be very high in TOTAL since the start of all this. Things are looking much much better NOW mainly because of the successful vaccination program. ( any deaths are regrettable of course)

We need to stop looking backwards and start to move forwards with caution.

Surely International borders cant stay closed forever. That cant be good for anyone.

[Dannyboy39]

UK are sitting in the World # 6 in cases, and # 4 in deaths - has it been just consistent?
Ancient history now. We’re in April 2021 not 12 months ago. The vaccine rollout using an efficacious one is succeeding and the UK is bucking the trend.

[chookcooker]

UK are sitting in the World # 6 in cases, and # 4 in deaths - has it been just consistent?
your definition of “soar” is different to pretty much everyone else there chief

[Bend alot]

your definition of “soar” is different to pretty much everyone else there chief
Thanks Chump, ? = question.

[compressor stall]

I love the alternate reality when, when presented with concrete facts (government issued graphs) , people justchange the narrative as if it never happened.

smooth.

[Dannyboy39]

I love the alternate reality when, when presented with concrete facts (government issued graphs) , people justchange the narrative as if it never happened.

smooth.
Hardly. The claim was made the deaths and hospitalisations were soaring. This is not the case in the UK.

[compressor stall]

Hiding behind construed tenses. Clever.

The claim was that
All the evidence is that when politicians get optimistic and lift the restrictions cases then hospital admissions and then deaths soar - Sweden, Chile & the UK all show this
When politicians opened up, deaths etc soared. That happened in lots of places in 2020. The claim was NOT that deaths etc are soarING in the UK NOW.

And it’s even more indefensible as you”ve only just started opening up some non essential shops (so no time yet to soar like last time) AND you’ve got an enviable vaccine policy. It’s unlikely to go batsh!t again in the UK.

[BA_Baracas]

If you look at that graph you may notice that since January when the vaccine rollout started the number of patients admitted has fallen dramatically. So has deaths.
Still some way to go before vaccination is complete which will reduce numbers further.

Yes the number of cases /deaths etc may be very high in TOTAL since the start of all this. Things are looking much much better NOW mainly because of the successful vaccination program. ( any deaths are regrettable of course)

We need to stop looking backwards and start to move forwards with caution.

Surely International borders cant stay closed forever. That cant be good for anyone.

Also in the UK, the stats are, people who die “within 28 days of a positive COVID result”.
So if you’re hit by a bus within 28 days of a positive result, you’re in the numbers.

We’ll never know the true numbers but with those metrics, they won’t be zero for a very long time, and there are many deaths that have gone down as COVID with family maintaining they died of something else.

That’s not to say the UK hasn’t had an awful time of it...

If you’re going for a zero COVID strategy, there are going to be large parts of the globe that will be inaccessible for many years to come. Not to mention the number of jobs lost in the travel and tourism industry. This is afterall, a pilots forum.

[Dannyboy39]

It’s amazing how many people on these forums that either (a) are happy to destroy their own industry and (b) happy to keep taking the money despite no one sitting in the back forgetting the consequences.

[rattman]

Also in the UK, the stats are, people who die “within 28 days of a positive COVID result”.
So if you’re hit by a bus within 28 days of a positive result, you’re in the numbers.



Stop telling lies, virtually every western country with the exception of belgium is using the WHO standard/classification. No where in that document does it say what you claim

https://www.who.int/classifications/icd/Guidelines_Cause_of_Death_COVID-19.pdf

[Potsie Weber]

All the evidence is that when politicians get optimistic and lift the restrictions cases then hospital admissions and then deaths soar - Sweden, Chile & the UK all show this

We have to wait until about 65% of the population have had the jab to think about opening up fully - at that point the much maligned "herd immunity" actually exists

Its a bit more than that. The AZ vaccine has an efficacy of 79% and COVID has an R number of 3. The formula for herd immunity is H=(1-(1/R))/E. So you need 84% of the population vaccinated to reach herd immunity. Pfizer efficacy is 91% and that brings the H number down to 73%. We have a mix of vaccines, so which number do you use?

Opening up international borders is going to be a very slow process that will take years before any kind of free travel is allowed, even if vaccinated. First we have countries like NZ which are COVID free with strong restrictions to transits etc. We will then probably look at countries with strong border restrictions with very little COVID and allow vaccinated travel with testing and maybe a short quarantine period.

I think we will be lucky by the end of this year to have more than NZ and maybe a couple of Pacific Islands. Very lucky to have somewhere like Singapore as well.

[Troo believer]

The latest from the CDC in the USA. And before you go on about the Americans mismanaging the pandemic, which they did thanks to Donald, just remember where the two mRNA vaccines have come from.
Travel overseas and upon return NO NEED TO QUARANTINE.
Why?
Because you’re vaccinated and that can only be a good thing and yet here we are once again dragging the chain. Re inventing the wheel. Thinking we know better. When was the last time that Australia designed and built an airliner? Austronauts. What are we now Vaccinauts. This is a pilot forum. We fly technical equipment invented by scientists and engineers. It’s about time we applied some science and logic to the discussion. Not some abstract crap you heard on social media. We’ve become a bunch of risk averse pussies.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1646x1624/e5ce955d_8ddb_43f9_8135_9861ff130d62_2b6e3fcad5a765c141767c3 a6c6a9c8eb78eb967.jpeg

[compressor stall]

Yep, science and logic would say that's what we have to look forward to when 40% of the population have had at least one dose (effectively eliminating hospital risk) and 25% are fully vaccinated. They are the stats from the USA from yesterday. :ok:

We should be in that position by .... Christmas? :mad:

[ScepticalOptomist]

Yep, science and logic would say that's what we have to look forward to when 40% of the population have had at least one dose (effectively eliminating hospital risk) and 25% are fully vaccinated. They are the stats from the USA from yesterday. :ok:

We should be in that position by .... Christmas? :mad:

We may be moving too slowly for my liking, but the upside is we will have longer to see what the US and UK do - I’m pretty positive things will get better quicker than the doomsdayers predict!

[Tucknroll]

The latest from the CDC in the USA. And before you go on about the Americans mismanaging the pandemic, which they did thanks to Donald, just remember where the two mRNA vaccines have come from.
Travel overseas and upon return NO NEED TO QUARANTINE.
Why?
Because you’re vaccinated and that can only be a good thing and yet here we are once again dragging the chain. Re inventing the wheel. Thinking we know better. When was the last time that Australia designed and built an airliner? Austronauts. What are we now Vaccinauts. This is a pilot forum. We fly technical equipment invented by scientists and engineers. It’s about time we applied some science and logic to the discussion. Not some abstract crap you heard on social media. We’ve become a bunch of risk averse pussies.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1646x1624/e5ce955d_8ddb_43f9_8135_9861ff130d62_2b6e3fcad5a765c141767c3 a6c6a9c8eb78eb967.jpeg

I think you’ll find we are listening to the experts - Australian experts who didn’t completely mess up the management of this virus. The CDC is all well and good but 1000 people are still dying every day in the US and the total is in excess of 566,000 deaths. They have the highest number of confirmed cases and the highest overall death toll of any country. They are 15th in the world for total deaths per capita, behind a list of developing countries or countries without decent medical infrastructure. Their economy is stuffed and their population has suffered.

Why on earth would we follow their policy?

[Troo believer]

I think you’ll find we are listening to the experts - Australian experts who didn’t completely mess up the management of this virus. The CDC is all well and good but 1000 people are still dying every day in the US and the total is in excess of 566,000 deaths. They have the highest number of confirmed cases and the highest overall death toll of any country. They are 15th in the world for total deaths per capita, behind a list of developing countries or countries without decent medical infrastructure. Their economy is stuffed and their population has suffered.

Why on earth would we follow their policy?
Between the USA , Israel and the UK they’re are leading the OECD in vaccination rates by a country mile. Stop looking back but look forward. We did a great job in controlling the pandemic, except for the Victorian episode, which could have happened anywhere in Australia. Lots of luck. But the cold hard fact remains that whilst we dither and pat our own backs, tourism, education, aviation and trade will suffer. We are good at saying no but not much else.
This whole saga reminds me of our aviation environment. Over regulated, pedantic,bureaucratic self serving nonsense. Flying in the USA is enjoyable. Arriving back in Australian airspace takes the fun out of it. Being chipped for not reading back verbatim a clearance to hold short of a runway holding point is so typically Australian. God we carry on with so much crap in this country. The land of government and bureaucracy.

“Had we secured more of the leading candidates last year and not insisted on duplicating the approval processes already completed overseas – naively asserting our regulatory superiority over Britain, EU, and US – we could have begun vaccinating by Christmas. But what can we do now?”
Quoted from SMH article
Steven Hamilton is Assistant Professor of Economics at George Washington University and Richard Holden is Professor of Economics at UNSW.
The parallels to aviation are obvious.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Between the USA , Israel and the UK they’re are leading the OECD in vaccination rates by a country mile. Stop looking back but look forward.




“Had we secured more of the leading candidates last year and not insisted on duplicating the approval processes already completed overseas – naively asserting our regulatory superiority over Britain, EU, and US – we could have begun vaccinating by Christmas. But what can we do now?”
Quoted from SMH article
Steven Hamilton is Assistant Professor of Economics at George Washington University and Richard Holden is Professor of Economics at UNSW.
The parallels to aviation are obvious.

Couldn’t agree more. Well said.

[SOPS]

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/worldwide-virus-death-toll-tops-3-million-c-2620816

Can’t see much political will to open the borders anytime soon. And with transmission in NSW HQ today, .......?????

[turbantime]

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/worldwide-virus-death-toll-tops-3-million-c-2620816

Can’t see much political will to open the borders anytime soon. And with transmission in NSW HQ today, .......?????
No leak into the community...yet...and all HQ workers either fully or partially vaccinated.

[Troo believer]

https://youtu.be/1oUaO8SL_Vc

[kiwi grey]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/492x283/capture_6bcd18ed728cf8f1b9fdfe8a936e1d128e2a18c2.jpg

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-18/scott-morrison-no-hurry-open-australian-borders-to-travel/100077086

[nomorecatering]

I think a lot of people don;t quite understand what a vaccines "efficay" really means.

This should explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

[Troo believer]

I think a lot of people don;t quite understand what a vaccines "efficay" really means.

This should explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

Fantastic explanation.
This screen shot says it all.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/ce809793_5abe_454a_8f66_5362d362cbdb_d56de307f0582652ab32b21 81b356fbe391cb042.png

[Fuel-Off]

No leak into the community...yet...and all HQ workers either fully or partially vaccinated

So vaccinated HQ workers are allowed to go home without quarantine, yet fully vaccinated crews with vaccines approved by the Australian Government are handed detention notices and locked up? As an Australian I find that utterly shameful.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[dysslexicgod]

Does anyone NOT see the problem of counterfeit vaccination certificates? We cannot open the boarders until that problem is solved.

[rattman]

Does anyone NOT see the problem of counterfeit vaccination certificates? We cannot open the boarders until that problem is solved.


Its already a problem, more specifically doctors certificates that you are covid free have been available within hours of them being needed. While afik no country has issued paper or electronic vacination certificates soon a real copy can be aquired there will absolutely be fakes available to buy

[turbantime]

So vaccinated HQ workers are allowed to go home without quarantine, yet fully vaccinated crews with vaccines approved by the Australian Government are handed detention notices and locked up? As an Australian I find that utterly shameful.

Fuel-Off :ok:
Agree with the hypocrisy here. I’ve been very critical about HQ workers and other Covid ward workers being able to mix in the community without restrictions while international airline crew are not able to leave home. When an ‘outbreak’ eventually occurs, it’s the airline crew that once again suffer. I’ve written to the media and my local MP about this but it seems as though no one really cares.

[blubak]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/492x283/capture_6bcd18ed728cf8f1b9fdfe8a936e1d128e2a18c2.jpg

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-18/scott-morrison-no-hurry-open-australian-borders-to-travel/100077086
Again there is no clarity from him,i am over 50 & will gladly get the jab but i havent seen or heard anything about how i get it.
As usual,he makes statements to make himself look good whilst attending photo shoot opportunities & ignoring what he should be concentrating on.

[WingNut60]

Again there is no clarity from him,i am over 50 & will gladly get the jab but i havent seen or heard anything about how i get it.
As usual,he makes statements to make himself look good whilst attending photo shoot opportunities & ignoring what he should be concentrating on.
Correct on all fronts.
All proclaimed in the same speech where he affirmed that there has been "no change in the program".
Unless he was talking about persons with underlying health problems or essential workers over 50? But who knows what he was on about.

COVID-19 vaccination rollout phasesThe Australian Technical Advisory Group on Immunisation (ATAGI) (https://www.health.gov.au/committees-and-groups/australian-technical-advisory-group-on-immunisation-atagi) has advised the Australian Government on which groups should be prioritised for the rollout of the COVID-19 vaccination in Australia. This advice is consistent with guidance from the World Health Organization (WHO).

We are currently vaccinated people in Phase 1a and Phase 1b. (Never mind the grammar)

Over 50's (the herd) are in phase 2.

[galdian]

Always thought best way to look at a problem with multiple facets was to break it down.

Departures is not the problem, couple of million piss off would be OK for Oz BUT with no guarantee or immediate expectation of return date/criteria/requirements as that's the work in progress.
All fares are inflated a tad to assume minimal loads into Oz until things sorted.

The hospitality/tourism sector would need some sort of ongoing support until the widest possible opening of inbounds ie tourists can be allowed.

Added bonus of shutting up the 50% or so who are bitching about not being able to depart.

[Troo believer]

Vaccine Efficacy. What it really means.
From the CDC.https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1640x2000/29d00f58_203a_4709_a2dc_18fa26c16873_c4b2ce5339a5151eadce4d7 a5a2424138ab48605.jpeg
A statement that was found from the ABC COVID site which was most interesting.Why vaccine efficacy and effectiveness are not the same thing.As David Spiegelhalter, the chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication at Cambridge University, and Anthony Masters, a statistical ambassador for the Royal Statistical Society, outlined in The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jan/24/behind-the-numbers-what-does-it-mean-if-covid-vaccine-has-90-per-cent-eifficacy), a 90 per cent efficacy rate does not mean an individual has a 10 per cent chance of contracting COVID-19.

"Imagine 100 people are ill with COVID-19," the experts explained. "‘Ninety per cent efficacy' means if only they'd had the vaccine, on average only 10 would have got ill.

"Vaccine efficacy is the relative reduction in the risk: whatever your risk was before, it is reduced by 90 per cent if you get vaccinated. There is a lot of confusion about this number: it does not mean there is a 10 per cent chance of getting COVID-19 if vaccinated — that chance will be massively lower than 10 per cent."

[LapSap]

Does anyone NOT see the problem of counterfeit vaccination certificates? We cannot open the boarders until that problem is solved.

Ha, what I said a few months back.
The day after there’s agreement on a format for a globally acceptable vax passport, you’ll be able to buy one in Shenzhen for a couple of hundred Yuan.

[Australopithecus]

There's not going to be a meaningful international standard because the WHO oppose having travel being subject to vaccination status!

The UN adopted a list of basic human rights that they have to adhere to. One of these is the “right of free movement” despite the fact that borders and restrictions are not under the purview of the UN, and no one has ever enjoyed this fictional right.

We have passports, visas, UN recognised vaccine certification already, but for this the WHO wants to play idealogical games.

[Qwark]

There's not going to be a meaningful international standard because the WHO oppose having travel being subject to vaccination status!

The UN adopted a list of basic human rights that they have to adhere to. One of these is the “right of free movement” despite the fact that borders and restrictions are not under the purview of the UN, and no one has ever enjoyed this fictional right.

We have passports, visas, UN recognised vaccine certification already, but for this the WHO wants to play idealogical games.

Lets hope the WHO win their “idealogical game”

[SOPS]

https://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/live-breaking-news/live-coverage/bc9be306da9dc53c30965054af642211

Who is going to blink first?

[blind pew]

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/scores-test-positive-for-covid-19-on-india-flight-to-hong-kong

[Australopithecus]

Lets hope the WHO win their “idealogical game”

Why? Do you want people to be able to travel here without proof of vaccination?

[Qwark]

Why? Do you want people to be able to travel here without proof of vaccination?

Yes I do!! I want to travel to Australia as an Australian citizen who has the freedom to choose to receive a vaccination or not!!

[1A_Please]

Yes I do!! I want to travel to Australia as an Australian citizen who has the freedom to choose to receive a vaccination or not!!
You're probably going to be disappointed. Proof of vaccination will be required for entry of non-citizens for most western countries. For citizens such as yourself, you will probably have to come home via the 14 day quarantine process. $3500 is an expensive cost to pushback on a vaccine but then again anti-vaxxers are not logical people anyway.

[Fonz121]

I really wish they’d hurry up and announce some kind of vaccination carrot in this country. Start announcing some privileges for the vaccinated that will come in to effect once the vulnerable populous has been vaccinated. Home quarantine until a negative test received for example instead of hotel quarantine.

I realise a lot of people want to get vaccinated but can’t at the moment, but the over 50s showing hesitancy could use a bit of motivating.

[Vag277]

Swift kick up the arse should motivate. Vaccination proof is not new. Maybe the kids don't know about small pox, cholera, typhoid, yellow fever vaccinations and the yellow vaccination card without which international travel could not happen.

[jrfsp]

The problem is how to verify those certificates. As an example from the BBC "about 100 people are trying to enter England each day with a fake negative Covid certificate. Lucy Moreton, of the Immigration Services Union, which represents UK border and customs staff, told the All Party Parliamentary group on coronavirus that the documents are "very easy" to forge." Asked how many fakes could be slipping through the net, Ms Moreton said it is "inherently unknowable", adding that a lot of border and quarantine controls are based on "trust".

Also not all vaccines are created equal - just look at Chile. Which ones do we accept - which ones do we not?

[ScepticalOptomist]

Also not all vaccines are created equal - just look at Chile. Which ones do we accept - which ones do we not?

If WE are all vaccinated, I don’t think it matters.

[Ladloy]

Victoria funding pfizer manufacturing in oz

[halfmoon]

It still amazes me the number of people lining up to get a vaccine that is approved for emergency use only. No long term effects are known about any of these vaccines. Nobody cares. Just listen to the politicians dangling the travel carrot promising no quarantine to the next bubble....Singapore.. Japan....here we come.

[ANstar]

It still amazes me the number of people lining up to get a vaccine that is approved for emergency use only. No long term effects are known about any of these vaccines. Nobody cares. Just listen to the politicians dangling the travel carrot promising no quarantine to the next bubble....Singapore.. Japan....here we come.

The vaccines in use in this country are not emergency approved.

[ScepticalOptomist]

It still amazes me the number of people lining up to get a vaccine that is approved for emergency use only. No long term effects are known about any of these vaccines. Nobody cares. Just listen to the politicians dangling the travel carrot promising no quarantine to the next bubble....Singapore.. Japan....here we come.

The vaccines are fully approved.

[ozbiggles]

Don’t use facts with anti vaxxers, you have better things to do with your life.

[halfmoon]

The vaccines are fully approved.
Yeah...but its the same vaccine used in other countries. No long term or even short term studies beyond 3 months. And you really believe it's gone through the full approval. Just saying people need to be aware there may be long-term health effects.
Im no anti-vaccer. I've had vaccines in the past that were actually tested and I'm confident in.

[Climb150]

Yeah...but its the same vaccine used in other countries. No long term or even short term studies beyond 3 months. And you really believe it's gone through the full approval. Just saying people need to be aware there may be long-term health effects.
Im no anti-vaccer. I've had vaccines in the past that were actually tested and I'm confident in.


Polio vaccine developed 1953, widespread use in 1955. So over 60 years ago 2 years was long enough to develop a vaccine. But now with all the new technology at hand 1 year isn't enough?

[Bend alot]

Many governments have been openly skeptical about the Russian and Chinese COVID vaccines, so how does that play with a "Vax Passport" plan and the many nations using them? The testing data is kept secret.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-26/why-is-the-west-so-sceptical-of-chinas-vaccines-/100026036

[Climb150]

Many governments have been openly skeptical about the Russian and Chinese COVID vaccines, so how does that play with a "Vax Passport" plan and the many nations using them? The testing data is kept secret.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-26/why-is-the-west-so-sceptical-of-chinas-vaccines-/100026036
Maybe you have to receive an approved vaccine to get one?

[KRviator]

Polio vaccine developed 1953, widespread use in 1955. So over 60 years ago 2 years was long enough to develop a vaccine. But now with all the new technology at hand 1 year isn't enough?To me, no it isn't.

The KRviatrix and I are both fully immunised so much as can be, as are the rugrats, however, we both have reservations about the speed with which these vaccines have been developed, "approved" and rolled out. They may ultimately be proven to be unfounded reservations, but to me, it seems like we are grasping at anything that will get us back to pre-covid times and to hell with the long-term risks. There was no suggestion of blood clots with the AZ vaccine until Norway & Denmark stopped administering it. What other hidden gems might appear down the track? I accept the risk of contracting Covid and manage that risk myself, rather than having it managed for me by companies & governments with a pecuniary interest in having me get the vaccination.

History is littered with examples of "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

[Tucknroll]

You may have your conviction tested.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/childcare-worker-sacked-for-refusing-flu-vaccine-loses-legal-appeal-20210421-p57l37.html

[morno]

To me, no it isn't.

The KRviatrix and I are both fully immunised so much as can be, as are the rugrats, however, we both have reservations about the speed with which these vaccines have been developed, "approved" and rolled out. They may ultimately be proven to be unfounded reservations, but to me, it seems like we are grasping at anything that will get us back to pre-covid times and to hell with the long-term risks. There was no suggestion of blood clots with the AZ vaccine until Norway & Denmark stopped administering it. What other hidden gems might appear down the track? I accept the risk of contracting Covid and manage that risk myself, rather than having it managed for me by companies & governments with a pecuniary interest in having me get the vaccination.

History is littered with examples of "It seemed like a good idea at the time!"

We administer drugs and vaccines all the time that have risks attached to them, much higher than these new vaccines. The contraceptive pill for example, a ****load higher risk of developing blood clots than the AZ vaccine.

People need some perspective and trust in the medical science that has got us this far in history.

The fear and scepticism of these Covid vaccines is largely media driven.

[KRviator]

You may have your conviction tested.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/politics/federal/childcare-worker-sacked-for-refusing-flu-vaccine-loses-legal-appeal-20210421-p57l37.htmlFortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.

We administer drugs and vaccines all the time that have risks attached to them, much higher than these new vaccines. The contraceptive pill for example, a ****load higher risk of developing blood clots than the AZ vaccine.True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.

[Global Aviator]

Under 50 can still get the AZ vaccine. Just have to sign a disclaimer. Get the jab open the world.

[jrfsp]

Covid cases are surging in quarantine across the country, numbers are higher than ever before.....and also covid transmissions occurring in hotels.....

I personally think we need to pause Indian arrivals as NZ has done.

[SOPS]

Covid cases are surging in quarantine across the country, numbers are higher than ever before.....and also covid transmissions occurring in hotels.....

I personally think we need to pause Indian arrivals as NZ has done.
I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening. If we are not careful borders will be shutting again.

[murder most fowl]

There are 2 options; you get the vaccine, or you will get COVID without vaccine protection. Both have risk and that's up for you and hopefully your doctor to decide.

[morno]

Fortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.

Do you think that maybe the only reason they’re not recommending (not prohibiting like you suggested) that people under 35 get it, is probably more because of the unnecessary negative attention that the AZ has received and the associated public backlash because of the misinformation that had been spread in the lead up to the decision?

Another words, ScoMo wanted to be seen to be doing the right thing because if even 1 person died, he’d cop an earful from all the misinformed and anti vaxxers saying they should have stopped it. Whereas (I don’t have the info nor could I be arsed looking), ordinarily on a day to day basis people are probably getting reactions to many other vaccines that we’ve used for years. Why do you think you have to sit around for 15 minutes after a vaccine and the nursing staff are trained in things like advanced life support etc.?

It’s turning out to be the biggest unnecessary media driven misinformation vaccine rollout in history :rolleyes:

Just get the f***ing jab so we can carry on with life

[Dannyboy39]

Fortunately, my employer - a multi-billion $$, multi-national, has come out and told their staff they will not be forced to choose between a vaccine and a job. They have said it should be up to the individual to decide, so barring McGoose mandating it as a condition of entry to the Democratic Peoples Republic of Westralia I can continue to let others field-test the vaccines.

True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.
Completely wrong. It is about 40x more likely to die from Covid. For U30s it is 1.1 clotting event per 100,000!

[Icarus2001]

I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening I hear where you are coming from but I don't think it is reasonable (or legal) to deny entry to Australian citizens into Australia. How many countries in the world are effectively stopping their citizens returning home by restricting hotel place and thus seats? It is the first job of government to look after our own.
If you can get to Australia by your own means, they have to let you in. Boat, private aircraft etc.

[ElZilcho]

If AZ was the only Vaccine available I highly doubt any Governments would be making a fuss over the extremely rare side effects... however, AZ has been highly politicised in EU AND there are (arguably better) alternatives so here we are. It's easy for a Politician to score brownie points with the masses when there's another Vaccine to fall back on.

Purely from a numbers perspective, you're more likely to suffer career ending complications from the Virus than you are from the Vaccine. People love to quote the survival rate of COVID, but always conveniently leave out the numbers of people suffering long term complications which would prevent them from holding a Class 1 Medical. Ironically, (or not) one of those long term effects from COVID is Blood clots.

Someone (possibly in another thread) mentioned they've lost their medical due to Vaccine complications... which if true, is a ****ty thing to have happen to an individual. (Also, if true, I expect IFALPA and other Industry bodies will be issuing a warning shortly) But the exact same scenario could of played out if that person caught COVID and developed lung damage from it, or became a suffer of "Long COVID" which appears to similar to Chronic fatigue syndrome.

Finally:
True that, but, by and large, with existing vaccines & drugs they are known risks, assessed and identified over many years, if not decades. The Covid vaccines, all of them, carry the threat of unknown risks and that is the problem. Blood clotting was not considered a risk of the vaccine until it was. There was no risk of giving the AZ vaccine to <50's, until there was! And now, even if I wanted to, I can't get the AZ vaccine as I'm under 50, so the risk of blood clots is presumably higher than the risk of contracting Covid & dying from it.


How do you think these Risks are discovered and assessed over many years, or decades? Short answer is, not by leaving the phial sitting on a shelf. Phase 3 Trials have their limits... most phase 3 trials have a few thousand subjects. The rate of blood clots with AZ is around 1:200,000
This is, and always has been, the reality of medical testing. The extremely rare side effects don't become apparent until mass adoption because you simply cannot get a large enough sample size from clinical trials. This might give cause for some to be hesitant, as an old friend of mine used to say (Retired Surgeon) "You never want to be to the first or the last to prescribe a certain drug", but the reality is, we don't know what we don't know. So yes, in effect, we're all guinea pigs (those who have been Vaccinated) but for a Drug that's successfully passed Phase 3 trials, you're more likely yo get hit by a bus stumbling back to your layover hotel at 2am than you are dying from the Vaccine. You're also far more likely to experience life long complications (or death) from the Virus than you are for the Vaccine.

Small comfort to those negatively impacted by the Vaccine I know... but there was never going to be a version of any Vaccine (or Medication) that didn't cause some form of side effects in someone when you're distributing it world wide.

[Fuel-Off]

I think we need to pause ALL arrivals. Cases in HQ are rising and spread is happening. If we are not careful borders will be shutting again.

I think you'd be singing a different tune if you were still living overseas, SOPS.

[Chris2303]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300284846/australian-man-from-victoria-catches-covid19-in-perth-quarantine-hotel

A (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300284846/australian-man-from-victoria-catches-covid19-in-perth-quarantine-hotelA) Victorian man contracted Covid-19 in a Perth quarantine hotel before travelling to Melbourne this week.

The man arrived in Melbourne on April 21 and was advised immediately upon his arrival that he was deemed a close contact of a positive case because the virus was transmitting on the man’s hotel floor.

As a result, he travelled directly home and has been isolating ever since, Victoria’s Health Minister Martin Foley said.

The man received his positive test result on Friday morning in Victoria.

[RodH]

From the ABC News site: All passengers on Qantas flight QF778 are being considered close contacts and will need to isolate for 14 days.
Just goes to show how changeable this whole thing can be in a very short time.
Things could well get a lot worse but let's hope not!!!

[blubak]

From the ABC News site: All passengers on Qantas flight QF778 are being considered close contacts and will need to isolate for 14 days.
Just goes to show how changeable this whole thing can be in a very short time.
Things could well get a lot worse but let's hope not!!!
Yes,lets hope not.
Lets now see the media who have no hesitation in sticking it into the victorian govt whenever they have an opportunity do exactly the same to Mcgowan & friends.
The hotel that this happened in(mercure) was recently identified as possibly the worst hotel in the quarantine system & should not be used.

[jrfsp]

Yes,lets hope not.
Lets now see the media who have no hesitation in sticking it into the victorian govt whenever they have an opportunity do exactly the same to Mcgowan & friends.
The hotel that this happened in(mercure) was recently identified as possibly the worst hotel in the quarantine system & should not be used.

Yes i hope the media ask the question - i reckon he wont make a media appearance personally.

It again comes back to the wider issue of HQ, with leaks in both NSW and WA over the last week.....but lets just keep patching up the holes instead of coming up with a better solution

[Angle of Attack]

And everyone knows what the best solution is, but they just keep kicking the can down the road.
Dedicated quarantine facilities should have been constructed 1 year ago by the Feds, Hotels are totally
inadequate for quarantining people with a highly transmissible via aerosol virus. This is going to blow up in
our face if we aren’t careful.......9 identified in HQ in Adelaide yesterday, 13 in Darwin today (with dozens of close contacts on same flight)

The cost of building dedicated facilities in most states last year will dwarf 2 years of lockdowns...

[jrfsp]

Indeed, how long would it take to build a Howard Springs type facility with individual cabins with their own AC units located on the outskirts of our major cities. 6 weeks?

[SOPS]

Standby at 1.30 WST for press conference from Mark McGowan. Rumours here of lock down and border closure.

[Foxxster]

Stop ALL flights from India NOW.

[SOPS]

Stop ALL flights from India NOW.
I think that’s the only way.

[neville_nobody]

McGowans going to be walking a economic tight-rope if he wants to keep going down the lock-down route

AFR 23/4
shortage of truck and train drivers is playing havoc with wheat exports out of Western Australia as the nation’s farmers look to regain lost ground in key markets.

CBH, consistently Australia’s biggest grain exporter from four ports on the WA coast, has fallen well behind on its shipping schedule – to the growing frustration of overseas customers.

The supply chain disruption comes with Australian wheat in demand in south-east Asia and other markets where Russian farmers had seized market share.

Russia opened the door for Australia by putting an export tax on its wheat at the start of the year in a bid to rein in domestic inflation.

CBH chief operations manager Ben Macnamara said the co-operative, controlled by 3700 WA farmers, had been hit by a shortage of truck drivers and train drivers were also in short supply.

Diversified mining services company Mineral Resources cited truck driver shortages in WA last week after missing guidance on iron ore exports.

Rio Tinto and gold miner Northern Star have also put the spotlight on labour and skill shortages in WA in handing down quarterly results in the past few days.

CBH targets a four-day turnaround for vessels calling into its ports but that has blown out to more than 10 days, although the delays vary across its vast grain storage and handling network.

‘‘The trucking issue has been exacerbated by not being able to get access to trucks from the east coast, which we have probably been assisted by over the last few years,’’ Mr Macnamara said.

‘‘The big crop over there means there is a lot of demand for truck drivers on the east coast as well. Obviously the COVID restrictions have stopped people coming into the state.’’

Premier Mark McGowan has shut down WA borders and imposed mandatory 14-day quarantine conditions for interstate visitors in response to any level of community spread in the rest of Australia.

Mr Macnamara said WA’s trucking capacity had been sucked into the buoyant resources sector.

As well as demand from the resources giants, two small iron ore producers have started trucking ore into Geraldton, the northern most port used by CBH, for export. CBH only resumed exports from Geraldton on Tuesday after a seven-day shutdown caused by Cyclone Seroja that added to its shipment backlog.

The co-operative carts a lot of grain to ports via rail but is also facing a shortage of train drivers, on top of the scarcity in truckers.

CBH’s rail operations were hit by bushfires in February, followed by floods and then a Pacific National freight train derailment on the line leading into its main port of Kwinana.

The delays getting grain from farms and upcountry storage sites to port have had a cumulative effect at a time when CBH ports are booked solid by customers.

GrainCorp’s seven east coast port terminals are also near fully booked until the end of September on the back of a bumper harvest and strong overseas demand, but its haulage task hasn’t been as challenging as in the west.

The driver shortage is not just limited to the country’s west, said Roger Fletcher, who operates one of WA’s biggest abattoirs and also runs a diversified meat processing, wool, cotton and grain businesses from headquarters at Dubbo in NSW.

‘‘We are short of truck drivers. I have got three trucks down at my grain terminals and I can’t get drivers,’’ he said.

[SOPS]

3 day lockdown starting midnight.

it makes no sense. “Health Advise” says you can’t go to the footy tomorrow but you CAN go to the basketball tonight.

[blubak]

3 day lockdown starting midnight.
He needs to explain why this hotel is being used & also how this guy got covid,hes been very quick in the past to tell us all how good he is so why stop now.
Also considering the number of returned travellers testing positive recently,why arent they put in quarantine & tested before being allowed to travel here.
Scomo is so p... weak.

[cloudsurfng]

3 day lockdown starting midnight.

it makes no sense. “Health Advise” says you can’t go to the footy tomorrow but you CAN go to the basketball tonight.


nothing that idiot does makes sense. But the sheeple will keep on lovin him. Idiots.

[ExtraShot]

Indeed, how long would it take to build a Howard Springs type facility with individual cabins with their own AC units located on the outskirts of our major cities. 6 weeks?

yep. Approx 6-8 weeks, maybe 10-12 if transportation is over a long distance, if you contracted more than one builder because they’re limited by capacity usually. They’d have to be purely focused on only that project for that length of time. (All According to top of the head calculations by a builder mate.)

Though that’s not accounting for Australian exceptionalism and government inefficiencies...

Overall cost to do one of Howard springs size probably less to the economy than a single 3 day lockdown for a capital city.

[Ladloy]

He needs to explain why this hotel is being used & also how this guy got covid,hes been very quick in the past to tell us all how good he is so why stop now.
Also considering the number of returned travellers testing positive recently,why arent they put in quarantine & tested before being allowed to travel here.
Scomo is so p... weak.
Piss weak vaccine roll-out
Piss weak leadership
Why did the feds not take control of hotel quarantine from the start? Scomo may as well have been in Hawaii for the last 12 months.

[SOPS]

According to the Government Health Web site.. all people travelling to Australia MUST show proof of a negative test at check in. Seems something is going very wrong or there a lot of fake test results about!!

[dr dre]

According to the Government Health Web site.. all people travelling to Australia MUST show proof of a negative test at check in. Seems something is going very wrong or there a lot of fake test results about!!

Indians are using fake Covid reports to travel and skip exams (https://qz.com/india/1993757/indians-are-using-fake-covid-19-results-to-travel-skip-exams/)

Hundreds with fake COVID certificates trying to enter UK every week (https://au.news.yahoo.com/revealed-hundreds-fake-covid-certificates-134423991.html)

[Global Aviator]

Indeed, how long would it take to build a Howard Springs type facility with individual cabins with their own AC units located on the outskirts of our major cities. 6 weeks?

There is already another private facility in Darwin where the marines quarantined.

To ramp up and build more? Demountable style, not long. There are hundreds ready to go and be wired, plumbed, etc.

The issue is the staff to run the centers, medical, blah blah blah.

Avalalon - Ok Mr Fox build it and they will come (and gov $).
Wellcamp - Ok Mr Wagner build it and they will come (and gov $).

Hang on the above makes wayyyyyyyy to much sense!

Oh and it doesn’t help the hotels... then again nor does lockdowns, or hang on do the gov pay upfront?

[blubak]

According to the Government Health Web site.. all people travelling to Australia MUST show proof of a negative test at check in. Seems something is going very wrong or there a lot of fake test results about!!
100% something wrong,how can we get positive tests in hotel quarantine every day if they all tested negative before departure.
All this government does is talk talk talk,they are morons if they cant see whats happening each & every day & putting us all at risk with their incompetence.

[Angle of Attack]

There is no issue to staff quarantine centres, pay a good rate and they will come. Anyway all the quarantine centres Australia had until the 1970’s were all on the outskirts of major cities not in the middle of nowhere. There needed to be a way to get patients to hospitals quickly if their conditions deteriorated. This is actually getting beyond a joke, the federal health gurus still refuse to admit that this is an aerosol borne transmittable virus, that’s just laughable, the events of the last week just prove this incompetence. Combined with a cluster of a vaccine rollout this could very badly blow up in our face and put us back to 1 year ago,, but worse!

I don’t believe in banning people from India but let’s mitigate it, high risk returnees should NEVER be allowed to quarantine in a flawed hotel quarantine system, they should go to Howard Springs or other Cabin style quarantine if it ever gets built.

Im just frustrated that we keep making the same mistakes again and again when there were experts advising Hotel Quarantine is a SHORT term solution in April last year.....:ugh:

[SOPS]

NZ has just closed to WA

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

No 'wuckin furries' Mr Sops, # 4467,

'Tis only the 'shockers' (8 on de ladder) v the roos, wooden spooners so far....Don't fret.
'TIs ONLY a Game....
And YEP...I told the kidlets NOT to throw away those masks...

Chheeerrrsss...

[ozbiggles]

Really? Some don’t understand you can test negative before you get on the plane and then subsequently develop Covid. There are a lot of unknowns in this but that ain’t one of them.

[Buster Hyman]

The thread's going down party lines again! :rolleyes:

[Icarus2001]

So a city of two million people is “locked down” because one person tested positive for a virus with a 98% survival rate?
When will this madness end? Why are we accepting this?
When did flatten the curve became complete elimination?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sri Mr Buster....Troo....

[rcoight]

So a city of two million people is “locked down” because one person tested positive for a virus with a 98% survival rate?
When will this madness end? Why are we accepting this?
When did flatten the curve became complete elimination?

Excellent question.

Remind me to stop travelling to these idiotic dictator-controlled states (WA, VIC, QLD).
Getting sick of being caught up in stupid lockdowns.
Can we just let Gladys (and any other adults if there are any) run the show?

[SHVC]

Got to love McClown. I wonder if the ppl there are tired of bis antics also.

[Troo believer]

Got to love McClown. I wonder if the ppl there are tired of bis antics also.

Youd think so but Sandgropers have a unique perspective to other Australian because they’re are large deposits of minerals in WA which they believe they own.

Why don’t the Wagner’s and a couple of other deep pocketed citizens get together and build a quarantine facility anyway. You know for the good of the country. Packer should pitch in. He needs some good publicity. Gerry Harvey could donate what he received from jobkeeper. Twiggy? The leadership vacuum is no longer a joke so get on with it. I’ll pitch in with some free labour. FFS would someone make decision.

[WingNut60]

Every time that there is a release from a quarantine hotel, it seems that there are big gaps in the explanations given.
When specifics are omitted you can't hep but wonder whether it isn't deliberate obfuscation.

For instance, this person entered Australia from Shanghai and after release from quarantine visited the UWA campus on several occasions before departing for Melbourne.
No other details were given which lead to a rumour circulating around that he was neither an Australian citizen nor resident.
The question of whether that is true or not could have been countered by simply including in the press releases that he was a "returning Australian resident", but it wasn't.
Why not?

Similarly, it has been announced that of the other 24 people on the same floor as the infected person, five have already left the country.
What the heck is that about? People are now flying into Australia to spend a little relaxation time in quarantine and then flying out again?

C'mon people, we don't want or need to start a racial backlash, but a few more details might make the explanation a lot easier to swallow.
Or not.

[dr dre]

Every time that there is a release from a quarantine hotel, it seems that there are big gaps in the explanations given.
When specifics are omitted you can't hep but wonder whether it isn't deliberate obfuscation.

For instance, this person entered Australia from Shanghai and after release from quarantine visited the UWA campus on several occasions before departing for Melbourne.
No other details were given which lead to a rumour circulating around that he was neither an Australian citizen nor resident.
The question of whether that is true or not could have been countered by simply including in the press releases that he was a "returning Australian resident", but it wasn't.
Why not?

Similarly, it has been announced that of the other 24 people on the same floor as the infected person, five have already left the country.
What the heck is that about? People are now flying into Australia to spend a little relaxation time in quarantine and then flying out again?

C'mon people, we don't want or need to start a racial backlash, but a few more details might make the explanation a lot easier to swallow.
Or not.

Does his origin, ethnicity or purpose for being here have add any tangible substance to this issue? He legally entered the country (hard to do at the moment without jumping through a lot of hoops), completed 14 days in quarantine and then upon developing symptoms several days later seems to have isolated himself immediately. He did the right thing, far more so than a lot of Australian born citizens have when it comes to complying with the rules associated with this pandemic.

The matter is we're still getting outbreaks from hotels in major capital cities over a year into this outbreak when they were only going to be a temporary solution. As international quarantine looks to continue for at least 12 months it's time for all quarantine to be in facilities like Howard Springs.

[Icarus2001]

Does his origin, ethnicity or purpose for being here have add any tangible substance to this issue? Yes, insofar as the seats to Australia are limited, there is a strong argument as SOPS alluded to, for restricting entry to Australian residents or citizens only.
Every “tourist” visitor takes a seat that could have been used by a citizen or resident trying to get home.

[StudentInDebt]

For instance, this person entered Australia from Shanghai and after release from quarantine visited the UWA campus on several occasions before departing for Melbourne.
No other details were given which lead to a rumour circulating around that he was neither an Australian citizen nor resident.
The question of whether that is true or not could have been countered by simply including in the press releases that he was a "returning Australian resident", but it wasn't.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-24/victoria-coronavirus-no-new-cases-linked-to-perth-hotel/100092718
He went straight to his home in Melbourne's eastern suburbs, then moved to Victoria's hotel quarantine system at his request and later tested positive on Friday morning.

Mr Weimar said he wanted to thank the Burwood man for being proactive after being told he was a close contact.

"He immediately started wearing a mask, he distanced himself, his wife came and picked him up from the airport, he isolated at home, the family stayed within their house," he said.
Strongly suggests that he is a citizen or permanent resident.
Similarly, it has been announced that of the other 24 people on the same floor as the infected person, five have already left the country.
What the heck is that about? People are now flying into Australia to spend a little relaxation time in quarantine and then flying out again?
Or they arrive as maritime crew at a WA port, are flown to Perth by closed charter and remain in quarantine until their international flight to their home country? https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/-/media/Corp/Documents/Health-for/Infectious-disease/COVID19/COVID19-Management-for-International-Maritime-Worker-Transfers.pdf

[WingNut60]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-24/victoria-coronavirus-no-new-cases-linked-to-perth-hotel/100092718

Strongly suggests that he is a citizen or permanent resident.
Or they arrive as maritime crew at a WA port, are flown to Perth by closed charter and remain in quarantine until their international flight to their home country? https://ww2.health.wa.gov.au/-/media/Corp/Documents/Health-for/Infectious-disease/COVID19/COVID19-Management-for-International-Maritime-Worker-Transfers.pdf

All good and (hopefully) valid replies.
But none of that information was given initially and some of it not at all.

So my question remains, why do I need to ask you for the answer.

[StudentInDebt]

All good and (hopefully) valid replies.
But none of that information was given initially and some of it not at all.

So my question remains, why do I need to ask you for the answer.I read the information about him returning to his home yesterday afternoon, I can’t speak for why you were unaware of it but perhaps you weren’t looking for it? The situation with maritime crew has been the case since January, again if you’re not looking for something then you probably won’t see it. There is also confirmation bias to consider.

[WingNut60]

He legally entered the country..............
That only came out later.
It is not something that I would have assumed.

He legally entered the country.......... (hard to do at the moment without jumping through a lot of hoops)
Again, not something that I would have assumed.
And even if legal, is it always reasonable? The exemptions have never been explained to the point that I would have your level of faith in them.

As for the inadequacy of the quarantine hotel system, I couldn't agree more.

From Mark McGowan's mid-day press release, he stated that >40,000 returning citizens or residents have now been processed through the Perth quarantine hotel system.
So you could infer that, on a per capita basis, maybe 400,000 have now been processed in total - all states.
Round figures, 20,000 in quarantine at any one time.
Yes, some may have been maritime crew or aircrew but surely the flow must start to dwindle some time soon.
Or perhaps the government could give us an estimate of how many citizens / residents are still leaving the country with an expectation of short-term return.

[WingNut60]

I read the information about him returning to his home yesterday afternoon, I can’t speak for why you were unaware of it but perhaps you weren’t looking for it?
Or perhaps I was; along with a lot of other people.
By the way, Friday afternoon was more than 12 hours following the first release which was the one that inspired the "tourist" rumours.

The situation with maritime crew has been the case since January, again if you’re not looking for something then you probably won’t see it. There is also confirmation bias to consider.
No confirmation bias involved. I still have no idea who they were or why they were kept in quarantine or why they left immediately thereafter.
But then, nor do you. Unless you can point me at some source that confirms your assumption.
McGowan's address was the first that I had heard of the five departees and he gave no explanation.

And that's my entire point. Half-arsed explanations.

[dr dre]

Yes, insofar as the seats to Australia are limited, there is a strong argument as SOPS alluded to, for restricting entry to Australian residents or citizens only.
Every “tourist” visitor takes a seat that could have been used by a citizen or resident trying to get home.

https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/travel-restrictions

There aren't any tourists allowed.

From the fact his wife picked him up from the airport in Melbourne it's clear he lives in Australia and is a permanent resident or citizen.

So again, why is his ethnicity and point of departure now suddenly an issue?

All good and (hopefully) valid replies.
But none of that information was given initially and some of it not at all.

So my question remains, why do I need to ask you for the answer.

I'm not sure why as I found out all that information from a quick internet search. Sometimes the correct info is out there if you look for it

[Icarus2001]

There aren't any tourists allowed Read the list on your link again.

I know there are "tourists" arriving as I have met a couple.

[WingNut60]

https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/travel-restrictions

There aren't any tourists allowed.

From the fact his wife picked him up from the airport in Melbourne it's clear he lives in Australia and is a permanent resident or citizen.

So again, why is his ethnicity and point of departure now suddenly an issue?



I'm not sure why as I found out all that information from a quick internet search. Sometimes the correct info is out there if you look for it
I didn't mention ethnicity and do not think that it should be a factor at all.

But citizenship and / or residential status are definitely factors.
If it doesn't pique your curiosity that there appears to be non-resident / non-citizens entering Australia without any explanation from our government then you're a very easily pleased person.

[jrfsp]

So the guy that came back from India left Australia and went over for wedding - was granted an exemption from the fed gov. Why on earth are we giving exemptions for attending weddings, hardly necessary

[Keg]

As international quarantine looks to continue for at least 12 months it's time for all quarantine to be in facilities like Howard Springs.

And where in NSW are we building this town capable of housing 6,000+ in a Covid safe manner? Then there is the workers required each day. Obviously they need to get in/ out. Probably another couple of thousand there too.

[dr dre]

And where in NSW are we building this town capable of housing 6,000+ in a Covid safe manner? Then there is the workers required each day. Obviously they need to get in/ out. Probably another couple of thousand there too.

There's about 12,000 spaces in quarantine needed at any one time. Howard Springs can take care of 1/6th of that number. The rest would have to be temporary, military bases, mining camps, detention facilities, dongers on the outskirts of cities etc. Doesn't necessarily need to be proportioned by state as it would be a Federal Government responsibility. Would it cost money? Yes, but if we get more outbreaks especially coming into this winter it'll cost more.

Experts have been calling for an end to hotel quarantine since last year. Probably too late for more purpose built facilities before winter.

I just fear that with the bungled vaccine rollout the time taken to herd immunity and an end to the disruptions has increased, so better take better care of returnees in the meantime.

[Keg]

I’m not sure that Howard Springs is capable yet of 2,000. I thought they were upgrading it so it could cope with 1500- just 750 people per week.

I’m all for quarantining people in a Covid safe way but many solutions such as the ‘build it and they will come’ solution introduce a number of extra touch points where Covid can ‘leak’ out.

[Global Aviator]

I’m not sure that Howard Springs is capable yet of 2,000. I thought they were upgrading it so it could cope with 1500- just 750 people per week.

I’m all for quarantining people in a Covid safe way but many solutions such as the ‘build it and they will come’ solution introduce a number of extra touch points where Covid can ‘leak’ out.

Howard Springs is or was a facility for 3000+ for Inpex. Quarantine it started at 500/750/1500? Surely it’s at 2000 already? Ramp it up to capacity. The cyclone season is over, that’s why the CM said it wasn’t being fully utilised.

There is another facility not far away Wickam Point? It’s where the marines quarantined, not sure how many 500? Whoops the marines are still coming so it’s not available.

Point is, I am sure with a bit of digging there are facilities close to suitable that wouldn’t take much. Then it is all about the man power and staff.

[CFD]

One of the problems we have at Howard Springs is they required an additional 400 staff to ramp it up to capacity. As of last week I heard they had recruited only 70. Additionally there is a shortage again of rental housing in Darwin, rents have strongly increased - how many people would want to relocate to Darwin for a 12 month contract - I would think most appropriately qualified medical staff would be happily employed where they are at the moment. I think it will be some time yet before they are operating to capacity. An additional point.... we are getting quite a few positive cases from India. Last week the Deputy CMO was warning that our local system could easily be swamped if the hospital is required... We have only 18 intensive care beds in Darwin so it wouldnt take much to make it a major issue for the Northern Territory.

[Global Aviator]

One of the problems we have at Howard Springs is they required an additional 400 staff to ramp it up to capacity. As of last week I heard they had recruited only 70. Additionally there is a shortage again of rental housing in Darwin, rents have strongly increased - how many people would want to relocate to Darwin for a 12 month contract - I would think most appropriately qualified medical staff would be happily employed where they are at the moment. I think it will be some time yet before they are operating to capacity. An additional point.... we are getting quite a few positive cases from India. Last week the Deputy CMO was warning that our local system could easily be swamped if the hospital is required... We have only 18 intensive care beds in Darwin so it wouldnt take much to make it a major issue for the Northern Territory.

Pausing repat flights from India fixes that issue.

[SOPS]

The couple that started the latest outbreak in Perth, had been given permission to go to India for a wedding!!! WTF??? People in Australia have had to cancel weddings. This has to stop. If you want to leave fine. But if you are going to go to a high risk area.. don’t expect to come back soon.

[WingNut60]

....... But if you are going to go to a high risk area.. don’t expect to come back soon.

I agree. But wouldn't a "high risk area" be anywhere with a current infection rate that is higher than Australia's?
That wouldn't leave a lot of acceptable destinations.

[rcoight]

I agree. But wouldn't a "high risk area" be anywhere with a current infection rate that is higher than Australia's?
That wouldn't leave a lot of acceptable destinations.

Who cares? If you’re leaving Oz for purely personal reasons don’t expect to come back soon.
Especially If you’re going to the worlds worst current hotspot.