All borders to reopen.

[KRviator]

Nothing like being held hostage by your elected officials!

[aviation_enthus]

This statement comes up often - but NEVER has anyone supplied any information on how or how long details. I am very interested to hear more about protecting the vulnerable (that group includes the elderly by the way).

Sweden and other countries that went through a proper wave in March/April have plenty of “good news stories” about how to protect the vulnerable.

Yes they had a high death rate amongst aged care homes. But within this bad news there are numerous stories of homes with NO deaths. They were the ones that were proactive and moved ahead of the government rules.

Things like:
- staff are only allocated to one centre
- preventing cross contamination between areas within individual centres
- limiting or stopping family visits during high case numbers
- no casual staff (all staff have paid sick leave so they will actually stay home when slightly ill)
- proper PPE training and equipment for staff members
- providing proper medical care (including oxygen) to COVID patients within aged care homes

Most of these things DID NOT happen in Australia as well. Especially in the Federally regulated centres. Even today its only VOLUNTARY that staff restrict themselves to working in one centre!!!

It’s not rocket science. The virus has been in the world for over 6 months now. There’s more than enough evidence of things that have worked to aim for better rules and regulations. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We don’t even have to come up with some brilliant plan. Just proper allocation of resources were the threat actually lies (over 70’s) would be a good start.

Open the borders between states.

Masks in all shopping centres, buses etc.

Protect our aged care homes and prioritise services that allow over 70’s to avoid public areas as much as possible (like home delivery, home medical visits, etc).

Let the rest of us get back to work as much as possible. The only thing saving us so far is JobKeeper. Watch how fast public sentiment changes next year when unemployment really starts to bite. When more people start losing homes.

[Bend alot]

Sweden and other countries that went through a proper wave in March/April have plenty of “good news stories” about how to protect the vulnerable.

Yes they had a high death rate amongst aged care homes. But within this bad news there are numerous stories of homes with NO deaths. They were the ones that were proactive and moved ahead of the government rules.

Things like:
- staff are only allocated to one centre
- preventing cross contamination between areas within individual centres
- limiting or stopping family visits during high case numbers
- no casual staff (all staff have paid sick leave so they will actually stay home when slightly ill)
- proper PPE training and equipment for staff members
- providing proper medical care (including oxygen) to COVID patients within aged care homes

Most of these things DID NOT happen in Australia as well. Especially in the Federally regulated centres. Even today its only VOLUNTARY that staff restrict themselves to working in one centre!!!

It’s not rocket science. The virus has been in the world for over 6 months now. There’s more than enough evidence of things that have worked to aim for better rules and regulations. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We don’t even have to come up with some brilliant plan. Just proper allocation of resources were the threat actually lies (over 70’s) would be a good start.

Open the borders between states.

Masks in all shopping centres, buses etc.

Protect our aged care homes and prioritise services that allow over 70’s to avoid public areas as much as possible (like home delivery, home medical visits, etc).

Let the rest of us get back to work as much as possible. The only thing saving us so far is JobKeeper. Watch how fast public sentiment changes next year when unemployment really starts to bite. When more people start losing homes.
Thank you very much for a reply with some detail - I shall respond later to a few of your points.

[MrPeabody]

Ah Yes Sweden again!

Remember the Cross Roads Hotel; one infection from interstate and there goes the NSW run of containment. It only takes one to start it all as Melbourne has seen; containment only happens when everyone is on board. At the moment that will not happen while people are following their own self interest.

The experts say better than 80% compliance with social distancing and heigene is what you need to sustain containment. According to to the CHO Victoria was around 85%; in June that was 25% and kahboom.

My side of MEL over the lat couple of days has been like a f***ing boxing day sale. The sun comes out and the masks (if people are bothering) are in their pockets or under their chins.

If that's not bad enough, the non-believers will be out in force tomorrow to protest the lock-down they themselves are perpetuating.

How the f*** do you protect the vulnerable; let alone the population against a bunch of f***wits who don't give a crap?

[SOPS]

Ah Yes Sweden again!

Remember the Cross Roads Hotel; one infection from interstate and there goes the NSW run of containment. It only takes one to start it all as Melbourne has seen; containment only happens when everyone is on board. At the moment that will not happen while people are following their own self interest.

The experts say better than 80% compliance with social distancing and heigene is what you need to sustain containment. According to to the CHO Victoria was around 85%; in June that was 25% and kahboom.

My side of MEL over the lat couple of days has been like a f***ing boxing day sale. The sun comes out and the masks (if people are bothering) are in their pockets or under their chins.

If that's not bad enough, the non-believers will be out in force tomorrow to protest the lock-down they themselves are perpetuating.

How the f*** do you protect the vulnerable; let alone the population against a bunch of f***wits who don't give a crap?

And that’s why we are happy in WA.

[CSTGuy]

And that’s why we are happy in WA.

Don’t try to speak for all WA pilots! Mark McMuppet is now way out of his league and history will not treat him well. WA is not it’s own country run by the dictatorship of the state Labor party. It’s very easy to skew polls and media coverage in today’s world. Sandgropers are nowhere nearly as content with the current leadership and their dictatorial directives as you may have been blindly lead to believe. Stupid is as stupid does.
As an adjunct, do your own research into why McMuppet suddenly has more security and minders.

[Left 270]

I'm actually offended, where on earth do you get the notion I wish it on others. I have always my entire life done what is in the best interest of the greater majority. Your problem is not recognising you are not in that majority.

This Is the issue. We’re all in Aviaton and, quite frankly at the moment it sucks, worse than anything any of us have seen for the industry, and most of us have seen personally but, there’s more going on than that.
there’s an absolute majority of the country right now that aren’t locked down, and living in near ‘normality’. That can and is being preserved. That’s also what’s keeping the country ticking as well as it is. This idea that we can open up, and go back to normal is absurd. The countries that have tried this have seem much more economic harm than we have and live day to day with the virus. As much as this all hurts right now this is in my opinion the best way to get as many of us back to work, as quickly as sustainably possible.
The objective should be a medium, long term one. Not a short term view.

[bekolblockage]

Best post on this thread so far aviation_enthus.
We need to stop searching for the Holy Grail and start following the KISS principle.

[Ragnor]

We just have to wait for December thats all there is to it. Then they will say June 2021. Reality is,no normal will happen until there is a vaccine

[wheels_down]

Mark McGowan is going to look like a dick if everyone else opens borders this December while the poor folks out west are just waiting...waiting...until the 13th March, then bang, borders open.

[blubak]

Sweden and other countries that went through a proper wave in March/April have plenty of “good news stories” about how to protect the vulnerable.

Yes they had a high death rate amongst aged care homes. But within this bad news there are numerous stories of homes with NO deaths. They were the ones that were proactive and moved ahead of the government rules.

Things like:
- staff are only allocated to one centre
- preventing cross contamination between areas within individual centres
- limiting or stopping family visits during high case numbers
- no casual staff (all staff have paid sick leave so they will actually stay home when slightly ill)
- proper PPE training and equipment for staff members
- providing proper medical care (including oxygen) to COVID patients within aged care homes

Most of these things DID NOT happen in Australia as well. Especially in the Federally regulated centres. Even today its only VOLUNTARY that staff restrict themselves to working in one centre!!!

It’s not rocket science. The virus has been in the world for over 6 months now. There’s more than enough evidence of things that have worked to aim for better rules and regulations. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We don’t even have to come up with some brilliant plan. Just proper allocation of resources were the threat actually lies (over 70’s) would be a good start.

Open the borders between states.

Masks in all shopping centres, buses etc.

Protect our aged care homes and prioritise services that allow over 70’s to avoid public areas as much as possible (like home delivery, home medical visits, etc).

Let the rest of us get back to work as much as possible. The only thing saving us so far is JobKeeper. Watch how fast public sentiment changes next year when unemployment really starts to bite. When more people start losing homes.
You are absolutely spot on with what is required.
The issues in the aged care sector could be solved by doing all the things suggested & by the federal govt mandating these requirements.
As you say,it is under their control & its not rocket science.
For those that think it cant happen in a state outside of victoria,you need to think again as the rules are the same right across the country.
The aged care system is regulated by a government intent on running it with a casualised work force with lowest possible pay rates whilst making sure the operators are well looked after allowing maximum profits.

[Xeptu]

Mark McGowan is going to look like a dick if everyone else opens borders this December while the poor folks out west are just waiting...waiting...until the 13th March, then bang, borders open.

My Tip, NSW will fall and the borders won't be open for Christmas.

[blubak]

Mark McGowan is going to look like a dick if everyone else opens borders this December while the poor folks out west are just waiting...waiting...until the 13th March, then bang, borders open.
We will see what happens when the iron ore price tumbles or when China decides upon an alternate supplier.
Many unexpected events/decisions happen in our world when least expected.

[Xeptu]

Don’t try to speak for all WA pilots! Mark McMuppet is now way out of his league and history will not treat him well. WA is not it’s own country run by the dictatorship of the state Labor party. It’s very easy to skew polls and media coverage in today’s world. Sandgropers are nowhere nearly as content with the current leadership and their dictatorial directives as you may have been blindly lead to believe. Stupid is as stupid does.
As an adjunct, do your own research into why McMuppet suddenly has more security and minders.

Who is stupid is an matter of opinion, WA has a 17% population that agree with you, the very reason the borders are closed.

[clark y]

https://www.health.gov.au/news/operational-update-victorian-aged-care-response-centre-2-september-2020-at-6pm

There are now less than 100 facilities with outbreaks, for the first time in a month.

There are 97 facilities with current outbreaks – this has dropped by 24 in the past week.


How does COVID get into over 100 aged care facilities in one state? Also what defines "high risk" as apparently there are none at the moment?

[Ragnor]

All seems quiet on the vaccine front, thats the only way out of this horrible mess. Everyone does not realize or want to accept that at the moment. the 7 states and territories agreed in principle on December just to fob off the gov and shut them up. Vaccine people accept it.

After Scott Morrision 45 minutes of nothing yesterday is to go buy, there could be much more serious issue brewing in the back ground. WA will possibly lead the way I think they could possibly want to split from the federation which no bother to me but could lead to QLD thinking they could do the same then the domino effect. Wouldn't be the first time WA have raised this.

[Green.Dot]

My Tip, NSW will fall and the borders won't be open for Christmas.

That’s a nice positive attitude mate. Geez, you and Telfer must be a hoot to talk to at a BBQ!

[Xeptu]

That’s a nice positive attitude mate. Geez, you and Telfer must be a hoot to talk to at a BBQ!

Hahaar! but seriously, the successful states are those that closed their borders and stopped the virus, there's no half measure, you either do it or you don't, I don't see that those states who have chosen the half measure have the right to impose that on any other state. The impact upon the states economy is just as bad if you have rolling stoppages every couple of weeks. I truly hope NSW doesn't end up like VIC, but what are the odds. It's playing with fire.

[Green.Dot]

I truly hope NSW doesn't end up like VIC, but what are the odds. It's playing with fire.

Don’t we all mate, that’s why I don’t think it’s helpful to make such statements of COVID taking over NSW by Xmas. To tell you the truth NSW has fared far better than what I would have predicted after the Victorian debacle. So let’s hope that run continues. I have full respect for Gladys, she appears to be the only one balancing the economy ahead of her own political gain. Yep it’s a balancing act but so far a job well done by her and her team.

[Ragnor]

What’s definition of success with this virus Xeptu? States and territories can’t come up with a definition maybe you have one!

NSW has achieved what was originally set out in March which was agreed by all. NSW is very open now it’s just the tourism industry that’s crippled. Closed to VIC rightly so Gladys is very keen to open to VIC when she can.

Over a thousand people a day are going to and from Ballina from the supposed scary city of Sydney not to much is happening there from a covid perspective, so again I would like to know why states and territories are closed to each other with zero to limited cases! I get that QLD and WA are way behind in crisis management, NSW would be happy to send out our expertise to teach them on how to do it.

WA imposing hard lockdown on its border is a violation of human rights now, not a virus problem locking ppl away not allowing free movement. Cases will arise of ppl not being able to be with family in times of sickness, death even the upcoming xmas holidays or whatever arises because of the border issue and that’s when ppl will get fed up with the border closure. QLD will be the same their residents have NSW family they can’t afford the quarantine on the way back so will miss out on weddings, funerals can’t be with a terminally ill loved one and they to will have problems arise soon.

Only so long people will be happy to have their border shut but soon as it directly affects them they will realize.

[Square Bear]

Western Australia doesn’t appear in the preamble to the Constitution Act:.

.....WHEREAS the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, have agreed to unite in one indissoluble Federal Commonwealth.....

Maybe that’s why it’s Govt is so recalcitrant on the border issue and the ongoing secessionist ideas that bubble along within the State.

[Bend alot]

Sweden and other countries that went through a proper wave in March/April have plenty of “good news stories” about how to protect the vulnerable.

Yes they had a high death rate amongst aged care homes. But within this bad news there are numerous stories of homes with NO deaths. They were the ones that were proactive and moved ahead of the government rules.

Things like:
- staff are only allocated to one centre
- preventing cross contamination between areas within individual centres
- limiting or stopping family visits during high case numbers
- no casual staff (all staff have paid sick leave so they will actually stay home when slightly ill)
- proper PPE training and equipment for staff members
- providing proper medical care (including oxygen) to COVID patients within aged care homes

Most of these things DID NOT happen in Australia as well. Especially in the Federally regulated centres. Even today its only VOLUNTARY that staff restrict themselves to working in one centre!!!

It’s not rocket science. The virus has been in the world for over 6 months now. There’s more than enough evidence of things that have worked to aim for better rules and regulations. We don’t have to reinvent the wheel. We don’t even have to come up with some brilliant plan. Just proper allocation of resources were the threat actually lies (over 70’s) would be a good start.

Open the borders between states.

Masks in all shopping centres, buses etc.

Protect our aged care homes and prioritise services that allow over 70’s to avoid public areas as much as possible (like home delivery, home medical visits, etc).

Let the rest of us get back to work as much as possible. The only thing saving us so far is JobKeeper. Watch how fast public sentiment changes next year when unemployment really starts to bite. When more people start losing homes.

Again I thank you for putting in a effort in your reply.

I will start with Sweden - The Swedish constitution prevents a lock-down in peace time. The government agency responsible :- in this case the Public Health Agency must initiate all actions (recommendations) to prevent the virus in accordance with Swedish law. The Swedish public is expected to follow a series of "NON- VOLUNTARY" recommendations from the responsible government agency. On 18 March, the Health Agency recommended that everyone should avoid travelling within the country, on 13 May this "recommendation" was softened to "commonsense travel" 1-2 hrs from home. This was mostly lifted about 3 months later on 13 June. Mobile phone tracking revealed most people followed the recommendations.

I could be mistaken, but that sounds like the lock-down you are having when you are not having a lock-down.

It is worth noting Sweden does not have internal borders unlike Australia, it is about double the size of Victoria with roughly double the population.

Sweden certainly has a high number of deaths (even following recommendations) it is very high compared to other Nordic countries. On current measurable data the slump in the economies is similar with other Nordic countries and without sign it will improve faster than other countries. Sweden had schools and universities closed and other measures were taken, but most think it was mostly a free to do anything approach because the government did not (could not) make rules.

In Australia we have known via many media reports that our aged care has been very bad, highlighted by numerous current affairs shows over more than a decade - WE have done nothing to address this, the old Jack system at play.

​​​​​​​That said 2017-18 more than 1.2 million people received aged care services (over 65) only 7% (84,000) accessed residential aged care (aged care homes).
22% (264,000) accessed subsidised support at home.
71% (852,000) without subsidised support at home.

​​​​​​​So the vast majority of the vulnerable elderly people live at home and get visited by age care worker/s varying times a week mostly by staff on close to the minimum wage. While it is easy to lock-down an aged care home, that will only protect around 7% of that group (age only) of vulnerable people. The rest are spread throughout the community and with restrictions removed will be exposed to greater community transmission - age care workers, home delivery, medical visits, gardener, plumber are all a greater risk of transmission to them than now.

Then there are the other vulnerable groups - one being around 800,000 Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people.The science over the last 6 months proves we do not have enough evidence on what has worked, heard immunity is a perfect example or if it is possible to catch the same strain twice? Obviously after 6 months it is not possible to know what long term health impacts are on mild severe cases after recovery. Even the at risk age ranges from 50 to 60 and 70 (a lot of people 50 up to 69).

​​​​​​​I am not sure we have the ability or the resources to protect the vulnerable, it is a far greater task than locking up the aged care facilities. If of course there is sincerity in protecting all the vulnerable in a partly humane way.

​​​​​​​I am also guessing that most of Australia's individual wealth is held by around the 60ish age group - might not be the best idea economically, to isolate them - that could be a spectacular backfire.

[Climb150]

The rest of the world has figured out that you can't stay closed for ever. Other countries are just learning to live with it. Whilst that may not be popular for some people, unless you want your economy to go into depression it's really the only option.

Many countries seeing spikes in cases are not getting anywhere near the hospitalisation rates this time around. Wasn't flatten the curve the idea in the first place?

[Xeptu]

What’s definition of success with this virus Xeptu? States and territories can’t come up with a definition maybe you have one!

Definition of success. Zero community transmission.

You know the medical side of my family are aghast that Airline Pilots don't regard themselves as vulnerable people. They say that if you think the medical industry isn't going to have issue with those recovered people with organ damage and free radical blood clots flowing around their bodies, you would be seriously mistaken.

[Green.Dot]

Many countries seeing spikes in cases are not getting anywhere near the hospitalisation rates this time around.

Backing you up with figures.

FRANCE. Look at deaths vs case numbers for the second wave. Non-existent.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x678/8d52cb28_0351_4fd4_b5cb_10d49b63f6a0_9067b3229679063c3a909cf b6aaeb25da1346600.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x662/ef72ea96_dc6b_4809_a1fb_57ec112cd857_c79561333b679d90f528df0 8dccb730427424aec.jpeg

[Ragnor]

So the first infected ppl are having long term affects from the virus already?! I’m not a Dr not going to pretend to be wouldn't it would be a little to early to attribute blood clots and other medical issues to covid.

[brokenagain]

If you have 26 million people with a viral respiratory infection, be it pneumonia, influenza, or COVID, of course some will unfortunately have long term effects. Stay scared in your cave Xeptu.

[Xeptu]

So the first infected ppl are having long term affects from the virus already?! I’m not a Dr not going to pretend to be wouldn't it would be a little to early to attribute blood clots and other medical issues to covid.

According to the girls (Medical) apparently not, it's a very common emerging issue. Not that I care personally, I'm retired, it's your medical certificate, your call., do whatever suits you.

[LapSap]

Not that I care personally, I'm retired,

And therein lies the rub.
You don't care. You are retired; likely with your nice house(s), pension/super/investments. Getting up each morning and reading the paper, PPRuNe and pottering around in your own little world.
You could apparently care less if the borders never reopen.
Sod the rest of the population.

As I alluded to previously but you chose to be obtuse, I hope that when YOU are ready to accept the rest of Australia, that you don't mind if WE turn our backs on you and say sod off- stay in your own little world for a few more years. We realized we don't need you.

[Chronic Snoozer]

So if you leave the “Sovereign State of WA” and perhaps visit Relo’s or friends in say QLD, NSW will you be able to return, or are you banished from the Kingdom for ever...at least until the whole country has had 28 days of no community transmission.

if that is the case, maybe we will see a movie such as Papilion on WA Devil Island?

If you leave WA you get a free fortnight's holiday on arrival back. Pretty cheap I've heard and what's not to like about a view over the Swan?

[MrPeabody]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x400/1599277117_1c911e729718a6cc01d39981d73eacb0476ee932.jpeg
Just another day in lock-down!

[Green.Dot]

And therein lies the rub.
You don't care. You are retired; likely with your nice house(s), pension/super/investments. Getting up each morning and reading the paper, PPRuNe and pottering around in your own little world.
You could apparently care less if the borders never reopen.
Sod the rest of the population.

As I alluded to previously but you chose to be obtuse, I hope that when YOU are ready to accept the rest of Australia, that you don't mind if WE turn our backs on you and say sod off- stay in your own little world for a few more years. We realized we don't need you.

Nailed it, the majority of us in the world have to work out how we are going to make a life of this for the next 30-60 years

[Stiff Under Carriage]

And therein lies the rub.
You don't care. You are retired; likely with your nice house(s), pension/super/investments. Getting up each morning and reading the paper, PPRuNe and pottering around in your own little world.
You could apparently care less if the borders never reopen.
Sod the rest of the population.

As I alluded to previously but you chose to be obtuse, I hope that when YOU are ready to accept the rest of Australia, that you don't mind if WE turn our backs on you and say sod off- stay in your own little world for a few more years. We realized we don't need you.

Precisely. Those in favor of this rubbish have nothing to lose nothing to gain. Not effected in anyway. What ever is left of this world post Covid, won’t be much I don’t think, somehow we have to find a way to live in it, whatever it looks like.

[Bend alot]

I think what Xeptu was eluding to is should we open up and get on with it!

There is a greater chance of pilots getting a case of COVID-19 that will cause a loss of their medical (for life) - He/She however no longer requires a class 1 medical, so being able to maintain one is not relevant to them any longer.

On the other hand current pilots may need to figure what other type of work they might wish to do for the next 30-60 years as flying will no longer be an option (with no medical).

Another 4-5 years of uni with another education bill to repay on top of the pilot loan - while starting at the bottom when they get employed in the new role.

It just might be wiser to allow a year or three for the current flying work to regain pre covid levels (as broadly predicted) than start a new career (that based on time and cost of a reasonable replacement career only).

[Xeptu]

And therein lies the rub.
You don't care. You are retired; likely with your nice house(s), pension/super/investments. Getting up each morning and reading the paper, PPRuNe and pottering around in your own little world.
You could apparently care less if the borders never reopen.
Sod the rest of the population.

As I alluded to previously but you chose to be obtuse, I hope that when YOU are ready to accept the rest of Australia, that you don't mind if WE turn our backs on you and say sod off- stay in your own little world for a few more years. We realized we don't need you.

Fair enough, if that's how you feel, we really don't mind, Goodluck with it then.

[Xeptu]

I think what Xeptu was eluding to is should we open up and get on with it!

There is a greater chance of pilots getting a case of COVID-19 that will cause a loss of their medical (for life) - He/She however no longer requires a class 1 medical, so being able to maintain one is not relevant to them any longer.

On the other hand current pilots may need to figure what other type of work they might wish to do for the next 30-60 years as flying will no longer be an option (with no medical).
Exactly Correct! Someone with a brain at last, I always knew there were a few idiots in the Industry in my time as well, I see the situation hasn't improved.

[Xeptu]

For you lot that want the borders open and think that's going to make a difference. I grew up through the last recession with nothing and no help, we were truly all in it together. That was a minus 4% recession, this one is looking in the order of minus 10%. That "scares me", even though today I'm regarded as a wealthy person with a couple of primary producing properties, a drilling company and a city residence, there was nothing lucky about that. I'm sure you're the very best pilot in the very best airline, but that isn't going to make diddly squat difference if there's no demand for air travel, for which I'm sure there won't be for at least the next two years and that's got nothing to do with closed borders and living with a virus.

[A320 Flyer]

Mate can you take your negativity somewhere else.... we’re all sick of it

[aviation_enthus]

Again I thank you for putting in a effort in your reply.

I will start with Sweden - The Swedish constitution prevents a lock-down in peace time. The government agency responsible :- in this case the Public Health Agency must initiate all actions (recommendations) to prevent the virus in accordance with Swedish law. The Swedish public is expected to follow a series of "NON- VOLUNTARY" recommendations from the responsible government agency. On 18 March, the Health Agency recommended that everyone should avoid travelling within the country, on 13 May this "recommendation" was softened to "commonsense travel" 1-2 hrs from home. This was mostly lifted about 3 months later on 13 June. Mobile phone tracking revealed most people followed the recommendations.

I could be mistaken, but that sounds like the lock-down you are having when you are not having a lock-down.

It is worth noting Sweden does not have internal borders unlike Australia, it is about double the size of Victoria with roughly double the population.

Sweden certainly has a high number of deaths (even following recommendations) it is very high compared to other Nordic countries. On current measurable data the slump in the economies is similar with other Nordic countries and without sign it will improve faster than other countries. Sweden had schools and universities closed and other measures were taken, but most think it was mostly a free to do anything approach because the government did not (could not) make rules.

In Australia we have known via many media reports that our aged care has been very bad, highlighted by numerous current affairs shows over more than a decade - WE have done nothing to address this, the old Jack system at play.

That said 2017-18 more than 1.2 million people received aged care services (over 65) only 7% (84,000) accessed residential aged care (aged care homes).
22% (264,000) accessed subsidised support at home.
71% (852,000) without subsidised support at home.

So the vast majority of the vulnerable elderly people live at home and get visited by age care worker/s varying times a week mostly by staff on close to the minimum wage. While it is easy to lock-down an aged care home, that will only protect around 7% of that group (age only) of vulnerable people. The rest are spread throughout the community and with restrictions removed will be exposed to greater community transmission - age care workers, home delivery, medical visits, gardener, plumber are all a greater risk of transmission to them than now.

Then there are the other vulnerable groups - one being around 800,000 Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people.The science over the last 6 months proves we do not have enough evidence on what has worked, heard immunity is a perfect example or if it is possible to catch the same strain twice? Obviously after 6 months it is not possible to know what long term health impacts are on mild severe cases after recovery. Even the at risk age ranges from 50 to 60 and 70 (a lot of people 50 up to 69).

​​​​​​​I am not sure we have the ability or the resources to protect the vulnerable, it is a far greater task than locking up the aged care facilities. If of course there is sincerity in protecting all the vulnerable in a partly humane way.

​​​​​​​I am also guessing that most of Australia's individual wealth is held by around the 60ish age group - might not be the best idea economically, to isolate them - that could be a spectacular backfire.

Thanks to you as well for a considered response!

The only reason I use Sweden is because the data is useful because they didn’t have a hard lockdown. So if you’re looking for a comparison there’s not many other options.

That being said, the Swedish Government has acknowledged their own failings in managing the aged care sector.

- More than 50% of deaths were in aged care homes
- 90% of deaths were aged over 70.

- in Victoria something like 90% of the deaths so far are in aged care homes.

In Australia most people only go in an aged care home for the last few years of their lives. So yes there may only be a couple of hundred thousand in those centres but taking the measures I have suggested above would make a significant difference to the death rate from COVID. It also has the convenient side effect of better protection during the annual flu season!!! Which also rages through aged care homes, it’s just not reported daily every winter by the Premiers....

Australia is in a different position to other countries. It’s an acknowledged advantage (in various Govt health reports) that being an island, relatively well isolated from the rest of the world, means in ANY outbreak of disease, Australia fares better than most other countries. Even if we do NOTHING.

This natural advantage should drive our response. A strong and well managed international quarantine system should have been the focus back in April/May. BUT at the same time, the public needs to be made aware it’s not 100% secure. The inevitable will happen and the virus will get out.

This is where public education comes in. Masks should be mandatory in all public areas across Australia regardless of current case numbers. I think the fact you are told to wear a mask is a constant reminder of what we are all up against. To me anyway, it makes you a bit more cautious, more likely to use sanitiser regularly.

In some ways I think the constant daily briefings by Premiers may actually be a bad thing. There has to be “Covid fatigue” creeping in now. But more importantly, if you get specific information on deaths etc broken down by suburb, how many of us think “that’s not where I live, it’s all good!”

If the public message was:
”it’s in the community, wear a mask etc, avoid going out if you are vulnerable”
How many of you would act differently if the warnings were more general and the onus was on you to protect yourself?? (In the absence of specific suburb information).

Contact tracing (aka NSW) needs more resources. Jumping on the virus when it pops up requires effort. Victoria has thoroughly failed in this regard. This focus combined with a well run quarantine system should keep the daily case numbers well within the capacity of our health systems. These are probably the two MOST IMPORTANT things that our various governments can do right now.

While all this is going on, resources can be allocated to protecting the over 70’s as mentioned. Building a system that keeps as many of them safe as possible (at home as well). Improving home delivery, medical visits etc as mentioned before. Thus again protecting them as much as possible when the inevitable happens and the virus appears in their town or suburb.

As for internal (state) borders. I don’t believe QLD will be able to sustain it’s border policy. The east coast (QLD/NSW/VIC) are to well connected and have large border communities to make this a practical long term solution. Palaszczuk is wrong in this aspect, especially with her requirements to open up again (no transmission for 28 days). On the other side, Western Australia is completely different. There are no large border towns and far less reliance on imports/exports to the eastern states. McGovern is right to point out that outbreaks in mining camps would have a significant affect on the state economy. You only need to look to Brazil to see what that looks like. So in the medium term I think the political pressure will continue to grow on QLD until they align with NSW/VIC. But I think WA will continue to do their own thing for a long time yet.

As mentioned, if you want to really learn something, look at the actual government reports for various countries around the world. Even here in Australia there are reports put out every year on respiratory diseases. There’s an annual influenza report as well. Don’t just go with the narrative driven by hysterical media and poll driven Premiers. There is a lot of really good information out there RIGHT NOW that can explain some really useful options to fight Covid.

[Bend alot]

Rational debate is rare, but good to see.

I shall reply soon with just my personal thoughts on the mater.

Thanks for your valid reply.

[lucille]

Here’s a fun web page for the statistically inclined.

Scroll down to the paragraph entitled comorbidities.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities


Only SIX percent of all the 190,000 or so COVID attributed deaths in the USA had zero comorbidities, meaning 94% had other ailments. The average number of comorbidities suffered by those who died was 2.46 per patient.

Lots of interesting numbers there. Food for thought.

[Bend alot]

Here’s a fun web page for the statistically inclined.

Scroll down to the paragraph entitled comorbidities.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities


Only SIX percent of all the 190,000 or so COVID attributed deaths in the USA had zero comorbidities, meaning 94% had other ailments. The average number of comorbidities suffered by those who died was 2.46 per patient.

Lots of interesting numbers there. Food for thought.

What really needs to be looked at is what they call "extra deaths" - lots of interesting numbers there.

The number of influenza related deaths due to social distancing and travel restrictions is nothing short of astonishing, from memory better than 1 tenth of recent years, or a 90% decline. But my memory is old.

[Ragnor]

if there's no demand for air travel, for which I'm sure there won't be for at least the next two years and that's got nothing to do with closed borders and living with a virus.

The only reason there will be no demand for air travel is because the borders are closed. If air travel has not returned before two years QF VA REX and lot of other operators will cease to exist. The destruction will be a lot more than the loss of a few airlines as I’m sure you know. I do have a self interest you don’t that’s why you don’t care, soon will be a time when you’re directly affected then you might think a little different. My issue with it, all these premiers are doing the wrong thing they have broken rank and file to what was agreed in March. But, deep down like yourself they don’t care. Cant blame them either they have their financial position and livelihood that is very secure as they ride off into the sunset with their pensions funded by your business and many other tax paying resident, some will even be gone before this is all over.

[Turnleft080]

Here’s a fun web page for the statistically inclined.

Scroll down to the paragraph entitled comorbidities.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities


Only SIX percent of all the 190,000 or so COVID attributed deaths in the USA had zero comorbidities, meaning 94% had other ailments. The average number of comorbidities suffered by those who died was 2.46 per patient.

Lots of interesting numbers there. Food for thought.

If unfortunately you happen to pass by car accident, run over by bus, crash in an aircraft, get electrocuted by lightening,
die of fright, fall & hit your head on a concrete block, shark attack, shot, and you
happen to have a covid sample in your system during post mortem, then your death certificate will show died of covid.
The WHO must justify their very late decision to declare a pandemic due to their (sit on the hands policy.) For goodness sake get those numbers up.

[Bend alot]

If unfortunately you happen to pass by car accident, run over by bus, crash in an aircraft, get electrocuted by lightening,
die of fright, fall & hit your head on a concrete block, shark attack, shot, and you
happen to have a covid sample in your system during post mortem, then your death certificate will show died of covid.
The WHO must justify their very late decision to declare a pandemic due to their (sit on the hands policy.) For goodness sake get those numbers up.
I call for a shot of proof on this statement.

[aviation_enthus]

Here’s a fun web page for the statistically inclined.

Scroll down to the paragraph entitled comorbidities.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities


Only SIX percent of all the 190,000 or so COVID attributed deaths in the USA had zero comorbidities, meaning 94% had other ailments. The average number of comorbidities suffered by those who died was 2.46 per patient.

Lots of interesting numbers there. Food for thought.

Regardless of the cause of death, the number of “excess deaths” in every country around the world shows something nasty is working its way through the population.

This link shows a large spike in the USA. Similar trends are reported in the UK and Sweden.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Although it’s also worth noting that the UK and Sweden have dropped back to more “normal” mortality rates. Even the USA is significantly lower than the peak in early April.

Anyone that says “only 6% of deaths are really due to COVID” is missing the point entirely. How many people die on a normal day with multiple reasons? I don’t know and I’ll bet just about no one on here knows either. Death I’m sure is never very simple, especially if you’re old and have many health issues.

Fact is “excess mortality” is probably one of the best statistics we have to show the real threat from the pandemic:
- “it’s the same as the flu”
(nope the peaks are much higher than a bad flu season)
- “the CDC/WHO/govt is lying about the scamdemic”
(so how do you explain the large spike in total mortality then??)
- etc, etc....

[aviation_enthus]

I call for a shot of proof on this statement.

The UK government policy was anyone that tests positive and then dies, goes down as a COVID death. They actively searched the death records for people that previously tested positive (even if months before and they since recovered). That has only recently been changed (in August).

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3220

quote from the webpage:

“PHE’s analysis showed that 88% of deaths from covid-19 in England occurred within 28 days of a positive test result, while 96% occurred within 60 days or had covid-19 on the death certificate. As a result, rather than counting anyone who had ever tested positive as a covid associated death, PHE will now use two definitions of death with covid-19 in England.”


The Victorian CMO has publicly stated (in a news conference) that even deaths in palliative care are counted as a COVID death if they test positive. I’m sure it goes down as an extra reason on the death certificate, but to the media it’s presented as a COVID death.

Thats just two governments that I’ve paid attention to how they record deaths. Now all that being said, I’m sure in the UK the number of “wrong” deaths from COVID is a relatively small number of the total. Likewise in Victoria we’ll never know how many older people just died but not from COVID, cause they refuse to breakdown the numbers.

But it all just distracts from the fact “excess people” are dying at the moment (see my previous post).

[aviation_enthus]

Looking at the politics of COVID and how that relates to the state borders, I think Australia is about 6 months behind the rest of the world.

For example in France, their daily case numbers have spiked back above even the March and April peaks, yet the government has clearly stated they will not lockdown again.

Even the last few weeks has seen the political winds start to swing in Aus. Scomo and the Coalition are trying to get a consensus on hotspot definition etc that the states will follow. NSW has stated their displeasure with the requirements to reopen the QLD border. There’s been an increasing amount of noise from various business groups about the need for some future certainty for allowing them to reopen. All of these discussions and debates need to happen before anything changes.

I think we’ll see some actual movement by Christmas with some more reality checks to come next year as unemployment continues to rise.

Plus the QLD election will be another interesting thing to watch. Labor is trying to make it about COVID and I imagine they’ll win again. But once that’s over, maybe they’ll soften their stance on the border now the political threat has passed.

SA appears to be moving to try and allow movement between SA/NSW and I’d imagine as the Vic cases continue to drop they’ll open that border too.

How long will Tasmania hold out? Especially as the summer tourist season passes them by if the borders are still shut.

WA will continue on their own path.

[Bend alot]

The UK government policy was anyone that tests positive and then dies, goes down as a COVID death. They actively searched the death records for people that previously tested positive (even if months before and they since recovered). That has only recently been changed (in August).

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3220

quote from the webpage:

“PHE’s analysis showed that 88% of deaths from covid-19 in England occurred within 28 days of a positive test result, while 96% occurred within 60 days or had covid-19 on the death certificate. As a result, rather than counting anyone who had ever tested positive as a covid associated death, PHE will now use two definitions of death with covid-19 in England.”


The Victorian CMO has publicly stated (in a news conference) that even deaths in palliative care are counted as a COVID death if they test positive. I’m sure it goes down as an extra reason on the death certificate, but to the media it’s presented as a COVID death.

Thats just two governments that I’ve paid attention to how they record deaths. Now all that being said, I’m sure in the UK the number of “wrong” deaths from COVID is a relatively small number of the total. Likewise in Victoria we’ll never know how many older people just died but not from COVID, cause they refuse to breakdown the numbers.

But it all just distracts from the fact “excess people” are dying at the moment (see my previous post).
I agree, but also it is expected Sweden initial and now total deaths are understated due to initial under testing and subsequent faulty test kits.

But no point to argue, as we both agree the "excess" is obvious.

[Xeptu]

The only reason there will be no demand for air travel is because the borders are closed. If air travel has not returned before two years QF VA REX and lot of other operators will cease to exist. The destruction will be a lot more than the loss of a few airlines as I’m sure you know. I do have a self interest you don’t that’s why you don’t care, soon will be a time when you’re directly affected then you might think a little different. My issue with it, all these premiers are doing the wrong thing they have broken rank and file to what was agreed in March. But, deep down like yourself they don’t care. Cant blame them either they have their financial position and livelihood that is very secure as they ride off into the sunset with their pensions funded by your business and many other tax paying resident, some will even be gone before this is all over.

Instead of being angry at least try to see my message, yes the demand for air travel ended because of the border closures, but that was just the cause (trigger event) not the reason. The reason is because of the impact of a recession, which is going to be a long time, long after the borders are open again. (internal borders anyway) I will be directly effected, I'm already adjusting to minimise the impact. None of my staff will be stood down or made redundant, if I have to carry them to the very end myself. I know what to expect, I have always been ready for it. The airlines is a fickle business, good one day in crisis the next, first effected, last to recover. I was in it for 30 years I know, I've been where you are 3 times in fact. It's the reason I retired early, I felt my usefulness was being wasted. Yes there's going to be carnage and few operators will survive as they are today, it's happened enough times to know. The premiers are not doing the wrong thing, they are doing what is expected of them in the best interests of the greater majority of their states population. Yes we do care, but no-one has a magic wand to fix the problem. The sooner you accept and embrace the change, the sooner you can get on with your life. That is the most important thing.

[Joker89]

All this talk about Sweden but do any of you live there.

1. the hospital system was never over run.
2. Population density is quite high around the city’s with mostly apartment living.
3. Rarely a mask in sight
4. the only industries effected are Hotels and Aviation.
5. The “rights” of the individual have been respected by the politicians and there is no political power plays or fear mongering unlike Australia.

but like everything in this world Australia thinks it knows best. Without a shadow of a doubt this virus was never bad enough for Armageddon. How about we just get on with it. The bats out of the bag.

[Deaf]

Also have to include deaths due to lack of medical treatment for example the MIL of a bloke at work. She had known heart problems and a recurrence of symptoms in April so to the Vic hospital. They tested her but refused anything else until the test results came back. Clear on covid but had died in the meantime.

How many will die early from lack of early cancer diagnosis? Expect that to be brushed under the carpet

[Xeptu]

I'll try and put some perspective on the arguments raised in this thread, lets reverse the argument. Government and Medical Industry at you. So you have an engine fire, big deal, it's only a small fire, not like a bush fire and the aircraft hasn't got many people on it, not like it's full, it's only a problem if the wing falls off and how often does that happen, near never, even it it does it's only 50 deaths. I mean who really cares, more people die on the roads than that. That's how medical people read your argument.

[rcoight]

You should be careful about thinking you speak for all “medical people”.
You don’t, and there are a wide variety of opinions amongst them I can assure you.

[Xeptu]

You should be careful about thinking you speak for all “medical people”.
You don’t, and there are a wide variety of opinions amongst them I can assure you.

Find me one and why do I need to be careful, your not.

[Bend alot]

All this talk about Sweden but do any of you live there.

1. the hospital system was never over run.
2. Population density is quite high around the city’s with mostly apartment living.
3. Rarely a mask in sight
4. the only industries effected are Hotels and Aviation.
5. The “rights” of the individual have been respected by the politicians and there is no political power plays or fear mongering unlike Australia.

but like everything in this world Australia thinks it knows best. Without a shadow of a doubt this virus was never bad enough for Armageddon. How about we just get on with it. The bats out of the bag.
Great you are here to explain the death toll.

P.S check your facts - yes they were over run and took several weeks to get PPE and ICU up to speed. After that they were not over run.

Rights were protected not respected read my prior post about the constitution and lock-down.

So schools for above 15, and all universities were not shut down?

[wheels_down]

It’s going to be hard having Victoria opened by Xmas going off many of these draft roadmaps leaking around.

Victoria needs to get to Stage 1 before Interstate is allowed. That’s weeks of zero cases.

I’m more worried about what seems to be the impossibility of getting to Stage 2 let alone 1. Getting to Stage 2 involves 2 weeks with an average of 5 cases a day. Not even Sydney is nailing that target at the moment let alone Melbourne having any chance.

[LapSap]

The only reason there will be no demand for air travel is because the borders are closed. If air travel has not returned before two years QF VA REX and lot of other operators will cease to exist. The destruction will be a lot more than the loss of a few airlines as I’m sure you know. I do have a self interest you don’t that’s why you don’t care, soon will be a time when you’re directly affected then you might think a little different. My issue with it, all these premiers are doing the wrong thing they have broken rank and file to what was agreed in March. But, deep down like yourself they don’t care. Cant blame them either they have their financial position and livelihood that is very secure as they ride off into the sunset with their pensions funded by your business and many other tax paying resident, some will even be gone before this is all over.

Xeptu is confusing demand with constrained capacity.
Lots of people want to fly right now but the airlines are being constrained by various authorities.

[Joker89]

Great you are here to explain the death toll.

P.S check your facts - yes they were over run and took several weeks to get PPE and ICU up to speed. After that they were not over run.

Rights were protected not respected read my prior post about the constitution and lock-down.

So schools for above 15, and all universities were not shut down?

fact: more people died in December 1993 than April 2020.

if you’re so scared of death lock yourself away and let the rest of us live.

[73qanda]

fact: more people died in December 1993 than April 2020.

if you’re so scared of death lock yourself away and let the rest of us live
Very interesting. Where do you get info like that ? Was there a specific reason for Dec 93 being high? Ie a nasty war?

[wishiwasupthere]

Very interesting. Where do you get info like that ? Was there a specific reason for Dec 93 being high? Ie a nasty war?

Deaths registered per month (http://Very interesting. Where do you get info like that ? Was there a specific reason for Dec 93 being high? Ie a nasty war?)

In Victoria, there were 600 more deaths in July of 2019 compared to July of this year, in the midst of a pandemic. It’ll be interesting to see the August figures. Media hyperbole indeed!

[Climb150]

Deaths registered per month (http://Very interesting. Where do you get info like that ? Was there a specific reason for Dec 93 being high? Ie a nasty war?)

In Victoria, there were 600 more deaths in July of 2019 compared to July of this year, in the midst of a pandemic. It’ll be interesting to see the August figures. Media hyperbole indeed!
Its hard to drown/fall off a roof/die in a car crash when everyone is locked inside their houses!

[Turnleft080]

Come March next year Dan will announce "Ok my fellow Victorians no more lockdowns, the good news you can all get back to work."
Business will then announce to Dan "excuse me premier their are no more businesses left in Victoria, they have all gone to the wall."

[Bend alot]

Its hard to drown/fall off a roof/die in a car crash when everyone is locked inside their houses!
True but then there are demons.

[clark y]

Everytime I see the title of this thread I think "not this week".

[Joker89]

Very interesting. Where do you get info like that ? Was there a specific reason for Dec 93 being high? Ie a nasty war?

https://emanuelkarlsten.se/more-swedes-died-in-one-month-1993-and-2000-compared-to-april-2020-why/

[Ragnor]

According to the girls (Medical) apparently not, it's a very common emerging issue. Not that I care personally, I'm retired, it's your medical certificate, your call., do whatever suits you.

So your [girls] are specialist in the field of virology or really is just their opinion! Don’t answear I don’t actually care.

I get the WA are not educated and are incapable like few other states of learning to live with the virus, like I said before soon it will affect you directly or someone close to you or a close friend and you will think different. Xmas will be the real test to the people’s loyalty to these dictator premiers.

I’m educated enough by my states health system in what to do and how to keep living so I am happy to return to work wear a mask where appropriate increase personal hygiene etc as I don’t want to send my country into the oblivion because this affects my kids future now.

[Xeptu]

I get that WA are not educated and are incapable like few other states of learning to live with the virus, like I said before soon it will affect you directly or someone close to you or a close friend and you will think different. Xmas will be the real test to the people’s loyalty to these dictator premiers.

I’m educated enough by my states health system in what to do and how to keep living so I am happy to return to work wear a mask where appropriate increase personal hygiene etc as I don’t want to send my country into the oblivion because this affects my kids future now.

So does climate change and plastics in the ocean or is that just another thing you have your head up your arse over.

[Ragnor]

Now you’re changing the subject to something totally irrelevant. This is not a debate over plastics and climate change go join the Greta fan page for that.

[Xeptu]

Now you’re changing the subject to something totally irrelevant. This is not a debate over plastics and climate change go join the Greta fan page for that.

It comes as no surprise you think the way you do, we blokes aren't good with change, especially major change and when you have been in command for a couple of decades. Hand over the reigns to the girls, you'll be surprised at how well they do and life won't be nearly as stressful.

[Climb150]

Not wanting to get too far off track but Germany just opened a new coal fired power station and is delaying the shut down of its last nuclear power plants.

So the Germans couldn't even do it. Greta must be having a tantrum!

[3 Holer]

.............................Xmas will be the real test to the people’s loyalty to these dictator premiers.

.

There is only ONE dictator Premier. Dan Andrews. He is so sh%t scared to do anything positive to get the State moving again because he has been let down badly by his "ministers' (I use the word loosely) The other States are all open for business although some restrictions still apply in NSW because they too stuffed up the quarantine protocols but not as badly as Andrews did in Victoria.

[patty50]

Cannot believe what a joke the Victorian road map is. 5 cases a day and 7 weeks before you’re allowed to sit at a cafe and have a coffee?

People in Sydney are well and truly over the rona, minimal cases bubbling along. Life feels pretty much back to normal if you’re not a party animal type person. I’m thankful Gladys and Kerry have done such an incredible job here, might change my tune if they keep toting with a mask mandate.

[currawong]

All this talk about Sweden but do any of you live there.

1. the hospital system was never over run.
2. Population density is quite high around the city’s with mostly apartment living.
3. Rarely a mask in sight
4. the only industries effected are Hotels and Aviation.
5. The “rights” of the individual have been respected by the politicians and there is no political power plays or fear mongering unlike Australia.

but like everything in this world Australia thinks it knows best. Without a shadow of a doubt this virus was never bad enough for Armageddon. How about we just get on with it. The bats out of the bag.

6. 50% of Swedes live alone.

Isolation is already normal in Sweden so there is reduced need to impose more.

Only 7% of Australians live alone by comparison.

[Liklik balus]

This is all TOO much, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!! !!!

[Turnleft080]

There is only ONE dictator Premier. Dan Andrews. He is so sh%t scared to do anything positive to get the State moving again because he has been let down badly by his "ministers' (I use the word loosely) The other States are all open for business although some restrictions still apply in NSW because they too stuffed up the quarantine protocols but not as badly as Andrews did in Victoria.

If Dan was an Airline captain his licence would be revoked .
If Dan was in the military he would be court-martialled.
If Dan was a surgeon he would be done for malpractice.
If Dan was and still is a premier your given a 11% pay rise.

[MrPeabody]

I think Dan has done fantastic job throughout this entire pandemic; there has only been one occasion where I have been unable to purchase my favorite red!!

[Stickshift3000]

There is only ONE dictator Premier. Dan Andrews. He is so sh%t scared to do anything positive to get the State moving again because he has been let down badly by his "ministers' (I use the word loosely).

I think he's actually doing a lot of the right things to get the state out of the pandemic.

What 'positive' measures do you think he should be taking, that would not potentially make the pandemic worse?

[blubak]

I think he's actually doing a lot of the right things to get the state out of the pandemic.

What 'positive' measures do you think he should be taking, that would not potentially make the pandemic worse?
Yes he probably is doing a lot of right things but he made 1 big mistake & keeps avoiding the questions about it.
Why is it not ok for 1 other household per household to be allowed to visit family,even put a limit of once a week on it if need be & a time limit if need be but right now he is putting so many innocent people completely offside & he needs them to work with him not p..s them off.
The numbers are coming down because the hotel fiasco is coming to an end as far as community transmission is concerned & right now he needs to give the average hard working person in the street something back for what his f..k up has caused them.

[Bend alot]

I think he's actually doing a lot of the right things to get the state out of the pandemic.

What 'positive' measures do you think he should be taking, that would not potentially make the pandemic worse?
Set the new bench mark for minimum aged care and aged care workers standards of a high/est level - having parts of it a Federal level and parts a state level, just leads to a blame game.

This across the board not just retirement homes.

Not only will it help with COVID-19 but many other age related issues over a foreseeable future.

[blubak]

Set the new bench mark for minimum aged care and aged care workers standards of a high/est level - having parts of it a Federal level and parts a state level, just leads to a blame game.

This across the board not just retirement homes.

Not only will it help with COVID-19 but many other age related issues over a foreseeable future.
Correct,pay people properly,train people properly,ensure the operators run it properly & invest the profits back into it instead of paying dividends & ridiculous salaries to hi flying executives.
Inspect the facilities regularly without giving any notice & when they dont comply,make sure the penalties are severe,they will soon get the message.
Theyre happy to fine people for not wearing a mask or whatever,now do it to these aged care operators & sort this out once & for all.

[currawong]

This virus has been political poison for politicians of all flavours.

It will be for the next crew too if there is not some immediate improvement.

Therein lies the conundrum - improvement in what?

Some will say case numbers, others the economy, all the while ignoring the fact that the two are inextricably linked.

[Green.Dot]

Hang tight Victorians, he’s got this in the bag...
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1080/3e56af9c_71bb_412b_a8c5_605cc11febe0_70e95ca949ca0b61019cced ca26526f0527eb35a.png

[Ragnor]

Now you’re not making sense Xeptu what makes you think that?

I’m struggling to understand why a retired old folk that’s not in the industry is replying on a pilots forum all day guessing your exit was not voluntary and you’re bitter? why would I have to hand over to females to understand That makes as much sense as Dan Andrews daily marathon press conferences?

Couple of decades of command, I’m glad I never flew with you, you do not embrace change or anyone else opinions you would be the type that’s “alway right”.

[Xeptu]

Now you’re not making sense Xeptu what makes you think that?

I’m struggling to understand why a retired old folk that’s not in the industry is replying on a pilots forum all day guessing your exit was not voluntary and you’re bitter? why would I have to hand over to females to understand That makes as much sense as Dan Andrews daily marathon press conferences?

Couple of decades of command, I’m glad I never flew with you, you do not embrace change or anyone else opinions you would be the type that’s “alway right”.

You got some serious issues going on there mate. Time you took some time out.

[Turnleft080]

Judging by his 2 hour presser today and the lockdown road map strategy they are after elimination. That's according to their wonderful science and model machine.
Well where did they get that from. No country in the world has eliminated it. NZ failed. Noah saved the animals, the sequel is in the making Dan saves Victorians.

May I add his acting was brilliant today very dour & dreary as per the script written by the produces Fiona Pattern, Samantha Ratnam, Andy Meddick wanted.
We like to thank the sponsors, the tax payers and destruction of business council. Filming will resume tomorrow at 11am.

[601]

If we were to translate the Swedish figures into OZ we would have seen;
15000 deaths
218000 positive cases.
Sweden's economy in the last quarter shrunk 8.6%

Australia had;
753 deaths
26,278 positive cases.
Economy in the last quarter shrunk by 7%

Which would you rather have?

[Turnleft080]

If we were to translate the Swedish figures into OZ we would have seen;
15000 deaths
218000 positive cases.
Sweden's economy in the last quarter shrunk 8.6%

Australia had;
753 deaths
26,278 positive cases.
Economy in the last quarter shrunk by 7%

Which would you rather have?
Are you sure those 15000 and 753 died of covid or died with covid.

[Climb150]

The real answer will be whose economy is recovering the fastest. It's hard to get back to business if many of your businesses closed due to lockdowns.

[Ragnor]

A closed border for no real reason or pay higher taxes/council rates!State to pay $2bn a year in interestCHARLIE PEEL
The Palaszczuk government will head into the October 31 election with ballooning state debt and a yearly interest bill expected to rise by $500m as a result of the economic turmoil wrought by coronavirus.

Economists forecast Queensland’s fiscal position is likely to have deteriorated since the last update given in July when Treasurer Cameron Dick presents a budget update on Monday.

The Palaszczuk government did not produce a budget this year, citing the pandemic.

Even before the virus, the government was struggling to control its state debt, which had blown out by $1bn in the latter half of last year. Economists believe the state debt will rise above $100bn within two years and could reach up to $110bn by 2024.

In July, Mr Dick revealed Queensland’s share of GST had dropped $2.5bn from the MYFER estimates and there had also been a $1bn decrease in state taxes and royalties.

Meanwhile, expenditure had increased by about $6bn as the state battled to stimulate the economy.

Economist Gene Tunny expected Monday’s update would reveal a deterioration in the budget since the July update, which came prior to Victoria entering stage four lockdown.

He predicted the state’s interest bill would hit $2bn, from a total budget of about $60bn.

“Ultimately it means you have to pay higher taxes and charges than otherwise or (the government) has to spend less on services like health and education,” Mr Tunny told The Australian.

“It means a rising interest bill and the government having to service that debt. They could be doing that for a very long time.”

Mr Tunny predicted fiscal deficits could reach $10bn in 2019-20 and $14bn to $15bn in 2020-21 with a state debt — originally forecast to top $90bn by 2022-23

— of $105bn to $110bn by mid-2024.

Deputy Premier Steven Miles refused to reveal details of the update on Sunday. “Queensland hasn’t been immune to the global pandemic or the global economic repercussions,” he said.

[blubak]

A closed border for no real reason or pay higher taxes/council rates!State to pay $2bn a year in interestCHARLIE PEEL
The Palaszczuk government will head into the October 31 election with ballooning state debt and a yearly interest bill expected to rise by $500m as a result of the economic turmoil wrought by coronavirus.

Economists forecast Queensland’s fiscal position is likely to have deteriorated since the last update given in July when Treasurer Cameron Dick presents a budget update on Monday.

The Palaszczuk government did not produce a budget this year, citing the pandemic.

Even before the virus, the government was struggling to control its state debt, which had blown out by $1bn in the latter half of last year. Economists believe the state debt will rise above $100bn within two years and could reach up to $110bn by 2024.

In July, Mr Dick revealed Queensland’s share of GST had dropped $2.5bn from the MYFER estimates and there had also been a $1bn decrease in state taxes and royalties.

Meanwhile, expenditure had increased by about $6bn as the state battled to stimulate the economy.

Economist Gene Tunny expected Monday’s update would reveal a deterioration in the budget since the July update, which came prior to Victoria entering stage four lockdown.

He predicted the state’s interest bill would hit $2bn, from a total budget of about $60bn.

“Ultimately it means you have to pay higher taxes and charges than otherwise or (the government) has to spend less on services like health and education,” Mr Tunny told The Australian.

“It means a rising interest bill and the government having to service that debt. They could be doing that for a very long time.”

Mr Tunny predicted fiscal deficits could reach $10bn in 2019-20 and $14bn to $15bn in 2020-21 with a state debt — originally forecast to top $90bn by 2022-23

— of $105bn to $110bn by mid-2024.

Deputy Premier Steven Miles refused to reveal details of the update on Sunday. “Queensland hasn’t been immune to the global pandemic or the global economic repercussions,” he said.
Oh at last,now everybody can see what shes been hiding behind.
Oh,cant believe we now see another taxpayer paid politician refusing to reveal details.
Every 1 of them deserve to be thrown out of office & australia be governed by 1 government,its about time these tossers were made accountable for their actions,that applies to all state governments,the whole country has had enough.

[Green.Dot]

Victorian unemployment to reach 10% is pretty epic alone.

[chookcooker]

If we were to translate the Swedish figures into OZ we would have seen;
15000 deaths
218000 positive cases.
Sweden's economy in the last quarter shrunk 8.6%

Australia had;
753 deaths
26,278 positive cases.
Economy in the last quarter shrunk by 7%

Which would you rather have?
bit simplistic to simply compare the GDP

swedens GDP contraction was far less than the EUs at 11.4%.

also, all those jobkeeper/seeker dollars being spent are included in ours. They’re all borrowed dollars

[Ragnor]

The whole handling of this situation is epic

[chookcooker]

The whole handling of this situation is epic
agreed.
It’s interesting the plummeting death rates despite huge numbers overseas.

[Bend alot]

Interesting?
The more you study your opponent the better you are equipped to deal with it.

Sweden is not doing as well as may of you want to think, even worse when compared to other similar countries.

https://www.barrons.com/news/virus-fallout-sends-sweden-s-unemployment-to-highest-since-1998-01595511904?tesla=y

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL2006/S00215/comparing-denmark-versus-sweden-on-coronavirus.htm

[Turnleft080]

Todays cases/deaths in Vic 41/9. last 3 days 80s/90s/63 now 41. By the end of the week we should be in the low 20s.
So whats the purpose of another 8 weeks of lockdown? Of course elimination, not flatten the curve as of the first 4 months.
Vic has had only 1 case in 7 months associated with pubs only. Apparently still way to high. Further more Sutton has
based the 6 weeks stage 4 based on a guess. Interesting science and model this one.

[Ragnor]

Good to see ML is going in the right direction. I would like to think Dan Andrews could be tending towards expect the worse hope for the best approach he announcing what he did gives leverage. If he says late November then people plan for that that’s ok he says Late October and it all turns to sh$t then we are all back to square one. Now he has leverage to open earlier If the cases stay suppressed before that.

[blubak]

Good to see ML is going in the right direction. I would like to think Dan Andrews could be tending towards expect the worse hope for the best approach he announcing what he did gives leverage. If he says late November then people plan for that that’s ok he says Late October and it all turns to sh$t then we are all back to square one. Now he has leverage to open earlier If the cases stay suppressed before that.
He should have expected the worst when he put the hotel quarantine fiasco in place.
What this is showing is that theres basically no other community transmission & yet all we get is talk,he is now on the verge of losing control of all those he continually thanks for doing the right thing,pity he didnt because hes about to find out the power of the people he has taken for granted,enough is enough.

[Stickshift3000]

Todays cases/deaths in Vic 41/9. last 3 days 80s/90s/63 now 41. By the end of the week we should be in the low 20s.
So whats the purpose of another 8 weeks of lockdown? Of course elimination, not flatten the curve as of the first 4 months.
Vic has had only 1 case in 7 months associated with pubs only. Apparently still way to high. Further more Sutton has
based the 6 weeks stage 4 based on a guess. Interesting science and model this one.

No different to your guess of low 20s!

[Ragnor]

He should have expected the worst when he put the hotel quarantine fiasco in place.
What this is showing is that theres basically no other community transmission & yet all we get is talk,he is now on the verge of losing control of all those he continually thanks for doing the right thing,pity he didnt because hes about to find out the power of the people he has taken for granted,enough is enough.

I agree DA messed up royally from day dot, Victorians have been through hell what they have endured is incomprehensible to the rest us us in Australia. Hopefully its all positive from here on in and NSW/VIC can get back to business with each other. Spring carnival will not be the same this yr!

[Turnleft080]

No different to your guess of low 20s!
Would you let Sutton prescribe you with drugs based on a guess or perform open heart surgery on a guess.
Or lets stick to reality destroy thousands of businesses on a guess.
The so called model they are working on will not be revealed that's my guess.
It's 11am next part of the movie is about to be filmed.

[Stickshift3000]

Would you let Sutton prescribe you with drugs based on a guess or perform open heart surgery on a guess.
Or lets stick to reality destroy thousands of businesses on a guess.
The so called model they are working on will not be revealed that's my guess.

All models are based on assumptions.

[Turnleft080]

All models are based on assumptions. Agree but tell business that. The science is wobbly though. Depends which epidemiologist you talk too.
This on 3aw this morning.

An epidemiologist says she found yesterday’s COVID-19 announcement “very bizarre” and she was “really disappointed” by the plan.Chair of epidemiology at Deakin University, Professor Catherine Bennett, said she doesn’t think continuing strict Stage 4 restrictions is needed.“Stage 3 plus masks worked as well as what we’re doing now, from what we can see from the outside,” she told Ross and Russel.“You don’t need to keep us in Stage 4, you just need to have a really smart path that keeps elimination suppressed but starts to open up, and then you get the best of both worlds: you’ve got people on board, you’ve got good compliance, and that’s how we wrap up the end of this tail.”Professor Bennett said the state government should be focused on stamping out COVID-19 in aged care and health settings, where most new Victorian cases are occurring.“We certainly know in the tail that we’ve got particular areas that should be priority areas. That’s what you focus on,” she said.But she urged Victorians to follow the rules set out by the state government.“The numbers are the key here not the dates, so I think we just go hard,” Professor Bennett said.“We may not like this road but the faster we move through it, the better.”

[Turnleft080]

Regarding Sydney cases right now if they were under the Melbourne model, Sydney would be in curfew as well.
Next step by 28th Sept (30-50 cases average for 14 day period), possible.
Next step by 26th Oct (< 5 cases average for a 14 day period), unlikely.
Next step by 23rd Nov ( ZERO cases for a 28 day period not just Vic but other states for covid normal), impossible.
Feed this wonderful supercomputer trash and with zero economic consultation and you will
not get a road map out, but a dark alley to suicide.
As I said just about every month, the scary thing is not the virus the scary thing is how governments react to it. Right now Dan is scary.
Went shopping this morning and I saw the police doing phone/GPS checks on those breaking 1 hour outdoors.
I wonder if I'II get fined if I leave my phone at home. The Vic police almost as bossy as the SS.

[Stickshift3000]

Went shopping this morning and I saw the police doing phone/GPS checks on those breaking 1 hour outdoors.
I wonder if I'II get fined if I leave my phone at home. The Vic police almost as bossy as the SS.

I might be a bit naive - how can the police check whether you've exercising for greater than 1 hour?

Their eyes in the sky yes (police drones in Vic), but that's a helluva pricey resource to use to track someone for an hour.

[Xeptu]

Regarding Sydney cases right now if they were under the Melbourne model, Sydney would be in curfew as well.
Next step by 28th Sept (30-50 cases average for 14 day period), possible.
Next step by 26th Oct (< 5 cases average for a 14 day period), unlikely.
Next step by 23rd Nov ( ZERO cases for a 28 day period not just Vic but other states for covid normal), impossible.
Feed this wonderful supercomputer trash and with zero economic consultation and you will
not get a road map out, but a dark alley to suicide.
As I said just about every month, the scary thing is not the virus the scary thing is how governments react to it. Right now Dan is scary.
Went shopping this morning and I saw the police doing phone/GPS checks on those breaking 1 hour outdoors.
I wonder if I'II get fined if I leave my phone at home. The Vic police almost as bossy as the SS.
I really feel for you guys in VIC right now, you must be hating life, it gets real when they announce single people living alone can have one whole visitor in their homes. The worst we have here is we have to sit down at the pub and not eat meals at the bar, where drinks are served. We did go through the whole stay at home order in the beginning but even then was still allowed out to exercise and go to the supermarket. I wouldn't want to reside in a high rise apartment in VIC right now.

[Turnleft080]

I might be a bit naive - how can the police check whether you've exercising for greater than 1 hour?

Their eyes in the sky yes (police drones in Vic), but that's a helluva pricey resource to use to track someone for an hour.

Don't know. I'm not a mobile phone savvy expert though would leaving mobile data on do anything to do with it.
Anyway checks were happening really don't know how they would police it either.

[KRviator]

I might be a bit naive - how can the police check whether you've exercising for greater than 1 hour?

Their eyes in the sky yes (police drones in Vic), but that's a helluva pricey resource to use to track someone for an hour.Don't need that Caravan or whatever they had tooling about above Melbourne Sans-ADSB/Lights etc a couple years ago. They've got a swag of mobile CCTV trailers that link back to wherever they monitor them. I don't trust the DM as much as I can throw them, but they have a story on it today (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8704193/Melbourne-residents-discover-spied-make-sure-dont-break-coronavirus-rules.html).

Victoria Police have confirmed the units are deployed in other areas in Melbourne but would not reveal how many units there are or their locations.
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/07/01/32856776-8704193-image-m-12_1599438499968.jpg

[WhisprSYD]

Regarding Sydney cases right now if they were under the Melbourne model, Sydney would be in curfew as well.
Next step by 28th Sept (30-50 cases average for 14 day period), possible.
Next step by 26th Oct (< 5 cases average for a 14 day period), unlikely.
Next step by 23rd Nov ( ZERO cases for a 28 day period not just Vic but other states for covid normal), impossible.
Feed this wonderful supercomputer trash and with zero economic consultation and you will
not get a road map out, but a dark alley to suicide.
As I said just about every month, the scary thing is not the virus the scary thing is how governments react to it. Right now Dan is scary.


I think putting hard and fast number targets on when restrictions will be eased is possibly the worst thing that could be done.. imagine if things are going well leading up to the 26th of October, 5 million people are getting ready to step outside and then you are the 6th positive test that day and it ruin it all for everyone for another 2 weeks.

Don’t forget, these are the same people who took 3-4 days to get tested when they had symptoms, and then went back to work for 48 hrs while waiting for results. Don’t be surprised if they pass up the opportunity to test when they’re feeling unwell if they know a positive test could prevent the end of lockdowns.

[Stickshift3000]

I really feel for you guys in VIC right now, you must be hating life, it gets real when they announce single people living alone can have one whole visitor in their homes. The worst we have here is we have to sit down at the pub and not eat meals at the bar, where drinks are served. We did go through the whole stay at home order in the beginning but even then was still allowed out to exercise and go to the supermarket. I wouldn't want to reside in a high rise apartment in VIC right now.

All Melbourne residents can go out for essential activities (including grocery shopping, post office, chemists) plus 1 hour of exercise a day. I'm usually out of the house for this stuff for 2+ hours a day...

[Stickshift3000]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/09/07/01/32856776-8704193-image-m-12_1599438499968.jpg

These are usually set up in Vic to deter car break ins or thefts (as the pic of the car park implies), or simply to imply a police presence.

Not something to be worried about by the general public really, but there are always a few people that want to vent about something.

[Xeptu]

All Melbourne residents can go out for essential activities (including grocery shopping, post office, chemists) plus 1 hour of exercise a day. I'm usually out of the house for this stuff for 2+ hours a day...

Thanks for the perspective from someone on the ground. It's hard to know what is true and what is not with what the media report. I'm glad you're doing ok

[Xeptu]

QandA was good tonight, The clear message that came out of that was that we need clarity on what the various criteria is for, International Borders, State Borders, those regions close to or cross the state borders. I think the federal government needs to define what the criteria is for the International Borders first so that the rest of the states have something to work with, afterall 6 months have passed and we still don't know what that is, yet they are critical of the states for exactly that issue.

[601]

Are you sure those 15000 and 753 died of covid or died with covid.

I guess that we will find that out during the class actions against the Govt and the Aged Care sector.

I think the federal government needs to define what the criteria is for the International Borders first so that the rest of the states have something to work with, afterall 6 months have passed and we still don't know what that is, yet they are critical of the states for exactly that issue.

The Feds have determined what the criteria is for the International Borders. Obviously some on the panel of Q&A need to read what is the criteria is for the International Borders.
Exempt categoriesYou are automatically exempt from the travel restrictions and can enter Australia (without obtaining an individual exemption) if you are:
There are nine exempt categories including Australian citizens.
The main restrictions on Australian citizens returning home is the cost and the daily numbers enforced by the States.

The quarantine period and who pays for it is controlled by the States.
Advice for internations Travellers (https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-restrictions/coronavirus-covid-19-advice-for-international-travellers?utm_source=health.gov.au&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=digital_transformation&utm_content=coronavirus-covid-19-advice-for-international-travellers)

The National Cabinet (Feds, States and Territories) all agreed to the caps on International travel.
National Cabinet (https://www.pm.gov.au/media/national-cabinet)

[Sunfish]

The problem Victoria has is threefold:

1. We now have an utterly incompetent state public service. This is a direct result of hiring and promoting people who have no relevant qualifications and experience except belonging to a non anglo saxon, non male minority. This situation is plainly on display in the ongoing quarantine inquiry. One manager even made and published her own team video celebrating their own achievement in creating what Josh Frydenberg correctly labelled “the greatest public policy failure in living memory”. These people are unable to construct let alone execute a coherent covid or anything else strategy. When a vaccine arrives and needs to be distributed and administered, they will @#$% that up too.

2. Our politically correct state government refuses to call a spade a spade. There is a reason that Melbournes outbreaks are geographically located where they are: concentrations of non english speaking and/or low income people who do not have a reputation for (a) familiarity with westminster democratic principles and associated laws, and (b) any inclination to follow laws at all. That translates to:”they don’t give a @#$%.”. Covid containment policy should be backed up by six months in the slammer for breaking quarantine. It isn’t. There are sections of the community who don’t respond to anything less. Lest you think I’m being racist, the six months slammer should also apply to the pricks who keep coming up to their holiday houses in defiance of the lockdown restrictions. Also, lest I be accused of racism, the government forgot to deliver covid 19 information and instructions in languages other than english for a considerable time. This was a tragedy because a lot of the wives in these communities don’t speak or learn english and may have been able to influence their families if the message had been communicated to them.

3. A state leader and ministers who have never done an honest days work in their lives. They have no empathy with anyone outside their ethnic group all of whom are carefully branch stacked members of their political faction. In particular,, they have no empathy for anyone who runs their own business. Not only that, they do not even have (nor can the public service now provide - see #1) any understanding that a major task of leaders is to reduce uncertainty, not increase it. This is how we got the jumbo jumbo “you can exercise for two hours a day if it’s Wednesday, the date is even, it’s a full moon and there were less than 41.5 cases yesterday” strategy. You can do all that modelling, well and good, but craft it into a very simple message for the community instead of raising then dashing peoples hopes. For example, Restaurant owners have been caught twice buying food and organising staff only to have to throw it all out and close up again at short notice.

‘They result is that investors are giving up and running, not walking, away from investment opportunities down here and it will take ten years and another Geoff Kennett to get them back.

[blubak]

QandA was good tonight, The clear message that came out of that was that we need clarity on what the various criteria is for, International Borders, State Borders, those regions close to or cross the state borders. I think the federal government needs to define what the criteria is for the International Borders first so that the rest of the states have something to work with, afterall 6 months have passed and we still don't know what that is, yet they are critical of the states for exactly that issue.
Do u really think we are going to get clarity from a group of so called leaders who dont want to offend or criticise each other,who wont take responsibility for hotel quarantine fiascos,who try to deflect attention from the fact they have ripped millions out of the aged care sector & thats just the start.
They just want to talk & big note themselves by using words that sound good but in a lot of cases even they dont understand what they mean.
They need to front the public & answer our questions,they dont like that suggestion though,would show them up for who they really are.

[machtuk]

Australia, a third world nation with a first world facade! With a very low population for land mass we must look pretty incompitant to the rest of the world for handling this virus that is so infectious that you don't know you even have it unless you get tested!
We are such a weak divided nation from the corrupt politicians right down to the man in the street!

[lucille]

The problem Victoria has is threefold:

1. We now have an utterly incompetent state public service. This is a direct result of hiring and promoting people who have no relevant qualifications and experience except belonging to a non anglo saxon, non male minority. This situation is plainly on display in the ongoing quarantine inquiry. One manager even made and published her own team video celebrating their own achievement in creating what Josh Frydenberg correctly labelled “the greatest public policy failure in living memory”. These people are unable to construct let alone execute a coherent covid or anything else strategy. When a vaccine arrives and needs to be distributed and administered, they will @#$% that up too.

2. Our politically correct state government refuses to call a spade a spade. There is a reason that Melbournes outbreaks are geographically located where they are: concentrations of non english speaking and/or low income people who do not have a reputation for (a) familiarity with westminster democratic principles and associated laws, and (b) any inclination to follow laws at all. That translates to:”they don’t give a @#$%.”. Covid containment policy should be backed up by six months in the slammer for breaking quarantine. It isn’t. There are sections of the community who don’t respond to anything less. Lest you think I’m being racist, the six months slammer should also apply to the pricks who keep coming up to their holiday houses in defiance of the lockdown restrictions. Also, lest I be accused of racism, the government forgot to deliver covid 19 information and instructions in languages other than english for a considerable time. This was a tragedy because a lot of the wives in these communities don’t speak or learn english and may have been able to influence their families if the message had been communicated to them.

3. A state leader and ministers who have never done an honest days work in their lives. They have no empathy with anyone outside their ethnic group all of whom are carefully branch stacked members of their political faction. In particular,, they have no empathy for anyone who runs their own business. Not only that, they do not even have (nor can the public service now provide - see #1) any understanding that a major task of leaders is to reduce uncertainty, not increase it. This is how we got the jumbo jumbo “you can exercise for two hours a day if it’s Wednesday, the date is even, it’s a full moon and there were less than 41.5 cases yesterday” strategy. You can do all that modelling, well and good, but craft it into a very simple message for the community instead of raising then dashing peoples hopes. For example, Restaurant owners have been caught twice buying food and organising staff only to have to throw it all out and close up again at short notice.

‘They result is that investors are giving up and running, not walking, away from investment opportunities down here and it will take ten years and another Geoff Kennett to get them back.

+1

That was as concise and truthful as any explanation I’ve read anywhere.

[vne165]

+1 - Nailed it sunny.
Only third world country you can drink the water.

[Stickshift3000]

1. We now have an utterly incompetent state public service. This is a direct result of hiring and promoting people who have no relevant qualifications and experience except belonging to a non anglo saxon, non male minority. This situation is plainly on display in the ongoing quarantine inquiry. One manager even made and published her own team video celebrating their own achievement in creating what Josh Frydenberg correctly labelled “the greatest public policy failure in living memory”. These people are unable to construct let alone execute a coherent covid or anything else strategy. When a vaccine arrives and needs to be distributed and administered, they will @#$% that up too.

I spent close to 10 years in state public service; I agree entirely with this comment. Incompetence appears to even be rewarded.

[Xeptu]

All those new Australians that come in with just level 4 English and a drivers licence for a car as a mandatory minimum qualification, work for the public service. I was gobsmacked when in recent times had the displeasure of having to engage with one in agriculture. He had absolutely no clue what I was talking about and clearly didn't understand the english language. I had to put my aussie drawl away and speak proper english. (which you actually have to think about) I thought how the f#$k are you in this job. Ended up having to wait for someone in the department that could understand what I was asking for.

[MrPeabody]

2. Our politically correct state government refuses to call a spade a spade.

This has been the major issue from the get go; the government has been so hung up on "Not Offending" anyone that they have ducked and weaved on providing real information to the public. Remember back a couple of months now they started to mention the LGA's which were causing concern but refused to name the suburbs. The City of Hume comes to mind; pretty big place and there was an uproar.

So then they back-peddle and start to name the suburbs; they then attempt large scale door to door testing in some of these trouble-spots and are swiftly told to f@#4-off by people in the thousands. Then it comes out that 30% of people hotel quarantine had also given that same response in relation to testing.

Just in the last couple of weeks we are now getting information on the DHHS website of hotspot locations with dates; the list is minuscule in comparison to NSW Health site. The NSW government releases information on a daily basis (in detail); the Vic government issues a number so as not to "offend".

I'm OFFENDED with this whole debacle; until the government fixes the minority (which they can't short of strategic bombing); "we're all in this (Sh@t hole) together"!

[dr dre]

1. We now have an utterly incompetent state public service. This is a direct result of hiring and promoting people who have no relevant qualifications and experience except belonging to a non anglo saxon, non male minority.

Provide linked evidence of that please. That any mistakes were made by people put into positions solely because of their gender, ethnic background or minority status and how a white Anglo male wouldn’t have made those mistakes otherwise you’re just going off on a nonsense rant.


Our politically correct state government refuses to call a spade a spade. There is a reason that Melbournes outbreaks are geographically located where they are: concentrations of non english speaking and/or low income people who do not have a reputation for (a) familiarity with westminster democratic principles and associated laws, and (b) any inclination to follow laws at all.

Funny, looking at all the anti vaxxer conspiracy theorists and anti lockdown rally attendees I see most to be of English speaking Caucasian “real Aussie” if you will backgrounded people. Who were arrested for incitement. I think most of the AFL players arrested for breaking lockdown rules aren’t ethnic minorities, no?

As far as the spread in a Melbourne goes, 90% of cases can be traced (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/it-started-with-a-family-of-four-rydges-seeded-90-per-cent-of-victoria-s-second-wave-covid-cases-20200818-p55mqe.html) back to a single source from hotel quarantine, not specifically an ethnic minority. The reason it spread quickly through housing towers isn’t because the residents hate Westminister principles or love breaking laws, it’s because isolating is hard in such an environment (https://grattan.edu.au/news/covid-19-hits-the-poor-and-vulnerable-hardest/). Also add a higher proportion of residents there working jobs that have been casualised (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak-linked-to-casual-insecure-work/12496660), without sick leave and security of employment and fears of visa issues, who are put into a position where they really can’t stay at home because it’ll have dire consequences for them. Another article showing the causes of the outbreak (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-city-divided-covid-19-finds-a-weakness-in-melbourne-s-social-fault-lines-20200807-p55ji2.html) were more related to poverty than ethnicity.

Why didn’t we need to identify and publicise the background of the Ruby Princess or Aspen Ski trip individuals btw? One conservative commentator has already backed down (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/peta-credlin-apologises-for-inaccurately-blaming-south-sudanese-for-coronavirus-outbreak) over this.

[Cunning_Stunt]

Just got to love Chairman Dan’s quote... “ I apologise for the circumstances we find ourselves in”. Find ourselves in?!! This jug-eared cretin and his government’s catastrophic handling of hotel quarantine is the reason we’re in this awful predicament. Grrr.

[Maggie Island]

Provide linked evidence of that please. That any mistakes were made by people put into positions solely because of their gender, ethnic background or minority status and how a white Anglo male wouldn’t have made those mistakes otherwise you’re just going off on a nonsense rant.




Funny, looking at all the anti vaxxer conspiracy theorists and anti lockdown rally attendees I see most to be of English speaking Caucasian “real Aussie” if you will backgrounded people. Who were arrested for incitement. I think most of the AFL players arrested for breaking lockdown rules aren’t ethnic minorities, no?

As far as the spread in a Melbourne goes, 90% of cases can be traced (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/it-started-with-a-family-of-four-rydges-seeded-90-per-cent-of-victoria-s-second-wave-covid-cases-20200818-p55mqe.html) back to a single source from hotel quarantine, not specifically an ethnic minority. The reason it spread quickly through housing towers isn’t because the residents hate Westminister principles or love breaking laws, it’s because isolating is hard in such an environment (https://grattan.edu.au/news/covid-19-hits-the-poor-and-vulnerable-hardest/). Also add a higher proportion of residents there working jobs that have been casualised (https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/coronavirus-covid-19-outbreak-linked-to-casual-insecure-work/12496660), without sick leave and security of employment and fears of visa issues, who are put into a position where they really can’t stay at home because it’ll have dire consequences for them. Another article showing the causes of the outbreak (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-city-divided-covid-19-finds-a-weakness-in-melbourne-s-social-fault-lines-20200807-p55ji2.html) were more related to poverty than ethnicity.

Why didn’t we need to identify and publicise the background of the Ruby Princess or Aspen Ski trip individuals btw? One conservative commentator has already backed down (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/peta-credlin-apologises-for-inaccurately-blaming-south-sudanese-for-coronavirus-outbreak) over this.

You should know better than to bring evidence and logic here mate, it upsets the rest of us!

[dr dre]

You should know better than to bring evidence and logic here mate, it upsets the rest of us!

I know, I’ll do it again:

his government’s catastrophic handling of hotel quarantine is the reason we’re in this awful predicament. Grrr.

You know they’ve discovered that it wasn’t a security guard, but a hotel night manager who was the initial source of the outbreak in Melbourne (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/patient-zero-for-victoria-s-second-wave-was-not-a-security-guard-20200813-p55li3.html)? Who are we going to blame for that?

How about no one. It’s a very contagious virus, it spreads quickly and eventually someone coming into contact with a lot of carriers (like a Hotel night manager in Melbourne which was taking a high proportion of international returnees) was going to inadvertently contract it through no fault of their own. Eventually, one way or another, it was going to break out.

[Stickshift3000]

You know they’ve discovered that it wasn’t a security guard, but a hotel night manager who was the initial source of the outbreak in Melbourne (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/patient-zero-for-victoria-s-second-wave-was-not-a-security-guard-20200813-p55li3.html)? Who are we going to blame for that?

How about no one. It’s a very contagious virus, it spreads quickly and eventually someone coming into contact with a lot of carriers (like a Hotel night manager in Melbourne which was taking a high proportion of international returnees) was going to inadvertently contract it through no fault of their own. Eventually, one way or another, it was going to break out.

Correct. I worked in the Vic hotel quarantine program - there was NO infection control training provided.

Do you know that Vic DHHS had an agreement with Jetstar to employ some stood down air crew as Authorised Officers in the hotel quarantine program? All with NO infection control training...

[Sunfish]

Dr Dre, I have nothing against migrants, I’m the child of two. I have nothing against the tower folk either, you are correct that infection control in such an environment is problematic.

‘’Incompetence: putting a millennial, probably with an arts degree, in charge of developing and executing the security guard program and using the criteria of “diversity” and “inclusion “ in the hiring, furthermore, the contractors were allowed to sub contract the work to body shops who then hired your proverbial low paid barely literate immigrants as security guards - and then she commissioned a celebratory video???. As for a night manager being the source of the entire outbreak that’s not proven. Doesn’t anybody in government understand that quarantine is unpleasant and that coercion might be needed as well as infection control? Didn’t they understand that police or prison experience was needed in designing the program? This cannot be argued!!

’My advice is that there was a connection between an underpaid guy and a ‘cousin” who. happened to belong to “the family from hell” a lebanese crime family who spread it far and wide in northern melbourne suburbs. It then made its way through a certain community who do not give a rats for man made law, causing an outbreak of 100+ cases here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-14/al-taqwa-coronavirus-outbreak-schools-reopening-questioned/12452266

‘’The really stupid part Dr Dre, is that the government and public service were so politically correct that they couldn’t even name the groups most at risk which meant they couldn’t target those same groups for special messaging because it might have offended!!!

Te virus is now ensconced in low paid workers who have only casual low paid jobs with no leave so they have to work. It is also in the bogan Australian community who aren’t law abiding and in the migrant community. -All because no one wanted to call a spade a spade. The nursing homes are killing grounds because they too employ the cheapest labor they can find.

As for Aspen skiers, yes. However those people are not the source now.

So the irony is that at the same time the government was using sign language to get the message out, there was nothing for example in arabic or other languages.

For the avoidance of doubt, it is not the fault of the ethnic groups that they got over represented in covid cases and they probably aren’t now anyway. What I am ranting about is a government so precious it can’t do a competent job!

[Buster Hyman]

I spent close to 10 years in state public service; I agree entirely with this comment. Incompetence appears to even be rewarded.
I have a similar length of service in the VPS and this is so true.

A typical day starts at 09:30-10 ish, off for a coffee, check emails, a smoke if you're so inclined. Off to the gym around 11, back at 12 to go for lunch, 13:00 check some emails, 13:30 off to a 2 hour lecture about diversity in the workplace. Afternoon coffee break, maybe a meeting or "catch up" as they're called, to discuss the week ahead, 17:00 check some more emails & start to wind up the day. Good effort everyone.

And its these people who believe they "get" the real world. As an example, all the Govt. Lawyers wouldn't last 5 mins in a real Legal firm where they have to account for every 5 minute block in order to "bill" the clients. I can only imagine the Medical expertise that's determining our 'incarceration' at the moment.

[KRviator]

IHow about no one. It’s a very contagious virus, it spreads quickly and eventually someone coming into contact with a lot of carriers (like a Hotel night manager in Melbourne which was taking a high proportion of international returnees) was going to inadvertently contract it through no fault of their own. Eventually, one way or another, it was going to break out.Tell that to WA. According to them - and Qld - it's all the fault of Victoria & NSW. If they'd 'done the job right' the borders would be open! Never mind the fact that proportinally, WA isn't carrying their share of the incoming traveller load. And Queensland is less than half of WA on a per-capita basis. WA even claimed in the Palmer trial that they could open the borders "in as little as 28 days". Now while this is technically "true", it doesn't reflect the reality that it can break out, and probably will do so again. Look at NZ for example. Nothing for 3 months, then bang! 100 cases in less than a week. And they still don't know where it came from!

[Cunning_Stunt]

If I recall correctly , Dr Dre, the claim that it was the night manager who was first infected was spruiked by Andrew Probyn on the 7.30 Report and faithfully parroted the next day in The Age. This claim was then “corrected” by the CMO who advised that the information could not in fact be verified at all! The Age then ran a very small piece a few days later admitting that it was not verifiable. The litany of screwups by this State Government has been writ large in the daily goings on in the Inquiry.. take some time to explore the submissions so far. How anyone can honestly defend the quarantine handling beggars belief.

[dr dre]

‘’Incompetence: putting a millennial, probably with an arts degree, in charge of developing and executing the security guard program and using the criteria of “diversity” and “inclusion “ in the hiring, furthermore, the contractors were allowed to sub contract the work to body shops who then hired your proverbial low paid barely literate immigrants as security guards - and then she commissioned a celebratory video???. As for a night manager being the source of the entire outbreak that’s not proven. Doesn’t anybody in government understand that quarantine is unpleasant and that coercion might be needed as well as infection control? Didn’t they understand that police or prison experience was needed in designing the program? This cannot be argued!!

’My advice is that there was a connection between an underpaid guy and a ‘cousin” who. happened to belong to “the family from hell” a lebanese crime family who spread it far and wide in northern melbourne suburbs. It then made its way through a certain community who do not give a rats for man made law, causing an outbreak of 100+ cases here:


Nah mate that’s just stuff you’ve pulled out of thin air. I asked for some credible links or evidence and all you’ve offered up is rumour and bias. It just confirms your own beliefs. “Lebanese cousin” “Arabs don’t follow our laws” “my advice (without evidence)” “a millennial with an arts degree” Could’ve written those sentences for any issue people like you rant about over last ten years really.

“I’m telling the truth, I’m telling it as it is, I expose the truth even if it’s politcially incorrect” nah mate you’re just plain incorrect.

Complex issues require complex investigations and answers by people who have plenty of experience, knowledge and temperament. Have a think when you see a professor, an epidemiologist, and public health specialist (like the ones I linked to in my response) etc why they don’t rant angrily non stop about the talking points you’re bringing up that seem more suited to a Pauline Hanson rant on Facebook than (what I assume are) a group of professionals trying to deal with how best to manage a critical health crisis so our industry is bought back to normality. Even if they see factors that do involve migrant communities they try to investigate the real causes (poor housing and lack of employee rights for migrants) rather than emotional assumptions (ethnic migrants are naturally law breaking scum who hate our country).

[neville_nobody]

poor housing and lack of employee rights for migrants

Compared to which country? China? Central African Republic? Saudi Arabia?

[Turnleft080]

Were their not, 500-600 doctors including some well know epidemiologists advising the government, their are better ways going about this.
No gathering reviewing other people's recommendations.
Instead lets go straight to the supercomputer, and whatever it says we will do. This so called supercomputer is the answer to all problems.
No brain power required.
How come the other states are not advertising about these supercomputers? I take it Apple have these in their stores though I can't get to one.
Can't argue the science and data. I suppose we are not allowed too. Love to know what junk they fed the supercomputer.
Anyway one result it came up with was the new police badge. It did say serve & protect they will have to include, fear & intimidate.
Governments are supposed to hide their corruption though this is now brazenly obvious.

[dr dre]

Were their not, 500-600 doctors including some well know epidemiologists advising the government, their are better ways going about this.


Where is that? I can only find one letter by 13 doctors, not 5-600, and only one specialising in public health, and none in infectious diseases. No doubt there are plenty of other medical professionals supporting the increase in lockdown, the Australian Medical Association (https://ama.com.au/media/extended-victorian-lockdown-will-help-avoid-third-wave) for instance.

Here’s another article from PhD qualified researchers in population health and epidemiology from Uni of Melbourne explaining their support for the lockdown:

‘Slow and steady’ exit from lockdown as Victorian government sets sights on ‘COVID-normal’ Christmas (https://theconversation.com/slow-and-steady-exit-from-lockdown-as-victorian-government-sets-sights-on-covid-normal-christmas-145558)

[dr dre]

For a bit of levity lest we all get too serious:

Dan Andrews slammed for listening to medical experts instead of former AFL players (https://chaser.com.au/national/dan-andrews-slammed-for-listening-to-medical-experts-instead-of-former-afl-players/)

[wishiwasupthere]

I posted earlier a link to the Victorian Births Deaths and Marriages website, where they publish monthly totals for the total number of deaths in the State for the previous 12 months. Interestingly, they’ve just updated it to include the total number of deaths in August of this year. Usually they include the previous 12 months so you can compare it to the same time period of the previous year, but conveniently now they’ve included August 2020 figures, but removed the August 2019 figures. Interesting because there was 200 more deaths in Victoria in August 2019 than there was in August 2020, in the midst of pandemic.

This is a screen grab I took a few days ago prior to the update showing the figures up to July 2020, and you’ll notice the July 2019 figures (and August 2019 too - 3892).

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/8102fff8_f54c_431d_9257_fa06d91980d9_82a837029103ba1685bf798 20a28b478cde27cc1.png
And here is a link to the updated August 2020 figures, with the August 2019 figures very conspicuous in their absence, which you can see in the screenshot above.

Deaths registered per month (https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/embridge_cache/emshare/original/public/2020/09/75/9654970d1/Death%20registrations%20by%20month.xlsx)

[MrPeabody]

Here’s another article from PhD qualified researchers in population health and epidemiology from Uni of Melbourne explaining their support for the lockdown:

‘Slow and steady’ exit from lockdown as Victorian government sets sights on ‘COVID-normal’ Christmas (https://theconversation.com/slow-and-steady-exit-from-lockdown-as-victorian-government-sets-sights-on-covid-normal-christmas-145558)

Well those PhD researchers would have to say that; wouldn't they. Melbourne Uni were the ones doing the modelling and recommendations, but I guess that's irrelevant!

[Turnleft080]

Where is that? I can only find one letter by 13 doctors, not 5-600, and only one specialising in public health, and none in infectious diseases. No doubt there are plenty of other medical professionals supporting the increase in lockdown, the Australian Medical Association (https://ama.com.au/media/extended-victorian-lockdown-will-help-avoid-third-wave) for instance.

Here’s another article from PhD qualified researchers in population health and epidemiology from Uni of Melbourne explaining their support for the lockdown:

‘Slow and steady’ exit from lockdown as Victorian government sets sights on ‘COVID-normal’ Christmas (https://theconversation.com/slow-and-steady-exit-from-lockdown-as-victorian-government-sets-sights-on-covid-normal-christmas-145558)


It was a letter written to the premier about 2 weeks ago and I think it's been pulled by the media that's why you can't find it.
However found this
https://caldronpool.com/federal-mp-calls-for-the-removal-of-victorian-premier-dan-andrews/

[dr dre]

It was a letter written to the premier about 2 weeks ago and I think it's been pulled by the media that's why you can't find it.
However found this
https://caldronpool.com/federal-mp-calls-for-the-removal-of-victorian-premier-dan-andrews/

What the heck was that? The article looks like it was written by an 11 year old and the only quote I can see is from MP from NSW and failed furniture salesman Craig Kelly.

So again, who are these 500-600 doctors?

[KRviator]

Several hundred doctors did write a letter (https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/over-800-scientists-doctors-call-upon-government-to-reveal-post-lockdown-plan/article31235525.ece) calling on the Indian Government to reveal their post lockdown plan. The most I have seen band together in Australia is the 13 doctors in this article (https://7news.com.au/sunrise/on-the-show/top-doctors-demand-premier-daniel-andrews-ends-victorias-coronavirus-lockdown-c-1284653). Sure you haven't got the two mixed up?

Nevermind. Found it. IT's on Sky News (https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6188159219001) reproduced below:
Victorian surgeon Dr Geoffrey Wells says a growing number of doctors in the state believe the lock-down is “causing more harm than good”.

Mr Wells is one of over 500 doctors in Victoria who have signed a letter to Premier Daniel Andrews concerning the controversial State of Emergency bill which he recently pushed through parliament with crossbench support. He said the doctors were yet to receive a reply from the Andrews government. “What we’re seeing is that the number of referrals from general practitioners to specialists has markedly decreased, it’s probably down about 70 per cent”.

Mr Wells also highlighted a study recently published in the Lanced which concluded there could be an increased death rate of about 4,000 people in the United Kingdom because of the delay in specialist medical support. Because patients are coming to see specialists at a later date, the disease is more likely to have progressed making it in turn more difficult to treat.

Mr Wells said he supported a “two-pronged approach” which protected the elderly while acknowledging those in the general community were at far less risk of suffering a fatal outcome from contracting the virus. “If you’re under 65 years of age, then the chance of dying from the virus is markedly decreased, it’s about one in 150,000”.

[wheels_down]

My Tip, NSW will fall and the borders won't be open for Christmas.

And that’s either about to take off, or not. All eyes on the next fortnight.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarylouiseMcla1/status/1303208865329102852

[flamingmoe]

Dr Dre, and his/her ilk, unfortunately, are a big part of the problem in Melbourne.

[Xeptu]

I really hope not, if it were a bush fire it's the same as running around trying to contain spot fires without actually putting any of them out. Fire fighters would know it's only a matter of time before they join up and that's when it gets away from you. Then it becomes a firestorm and that's a serious fire. In my view a pandemic behaves the same way. What are the odds of success.
To be closing down, sending everyone home, deep cleaning, opening up again is just as destructive to the economy and you still have an escalating health issue.
Personally I don't think it's going to end well, but that seems to be the favoured method in NSW, lets see how it goes.

[Stickshift3000]

Dr Dre, and his/her ilk, unfortunately, are a big part of the problem in Melbourne.

What do you suggest genius?! :)

[MrPeabody]

Dr Dre, and his/her ilk, unfortunately, are a big part of the problem in Melbourne.

I very much doubt that Dr Dre is from MEL

[dr dre]

Nevermind. Found it. IT's on Sky News (https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6188159219001) reproduced below:

No, that’s just a vague line in an article (from a not so unbiased news source I might add),

Looking online I can only find a published copy of letter with no more than 13 names, a urologist being the lead spokesman, I haven’t seen any letter that a number approaching 500 doctors have put their names to. Doesn’t exist as far as I can see. If any can see it (with 500 names please) feel free to post it, until then I’ll remain skeptical.

Victorian Chief Health Officer’s qualifications and experience (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brett-sutton-4b574456/?originalSubdomain=au), lots of Communicable disease, infection control and epidemiology experience in there.

[ruprecht]

I look forward the the government approaching tobacco related deaths with the same zeal as COVID19.

[KRviator]

Victorian Chief Health Officer’s qualifications and experience (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brett-sutton-4b574456/?originalSubdomain=au), lots of Communicable disease, infection control and epidemiology experience in there.And what's telling is what isn't there....no psychological or psychiatric specialities, certainly no economics degree or understanding - but you know what he does have?Professor Sutton has a keen interest in the incorporation of palliative care practice into humanitarian responses.Don't suppose his "keen interest" in palliative care practices would be swaying his judgement about the requirement to protect those who don't need palliative care would it?

His response is about protecting those who tend not to contribute to the sustainability of the state, and penalising those that do. The question that must be asked is for how long is that going to be sustainable?

[rcoight]

I very much doubt that Dr Dre is from MEL

Canberra??

[MrPeabody]

Canberra??
Could be!

Where ever it is, he needs to consider changing the water in his/her or it's smoking apparatus!

[rcoight]

No, that’s just a vague line in an article (from a not so unbiased news source I might add),

Looking online I can only find a published copy of letter with no more than 13 names, a urologist being the lead spokesman, I haven’t seen any letter that a number approaching 500 doctors have put their names to. Doesn’t exist as far as I can see. If any can see it (with 500 names please) feel free to post it, until then I’ll remain skeptical.

Victorian Chief Health Officer’s qualifications and experience (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brett-sutton-4b574456/?originalSubdomain=au), lots of Communicable disease, infection control and epidemiology experience in there.


Just out of sheer curiosity: Are you, in fact, a doctor?

[Sunfish]

Dr dre: Nah mate that’s just stuff you’ve pulled out of thin air. I asked for some credible links or evidence and all you’ve offered up is rumour and bias. It just confirms your own beliefs. “Lebanese cousin” “Arabs don’t follow our laws” “my advice (without evidence)” “a millennial with an arts degree” Could’ve written those sentences for any issue people like you rant about over last ten years really.



‘’’The video starring the millennial manager and her team congratulating themselves was played on national TV and to the inquiry. The trajectory of the outbreak through a lebanese crime family is widely known in legal circles, including the family name (a type of bird). The government euphemism was “an extended family outbreak involving six households ‘. The ethnicity is not relevant, the scofflaw behaviour is.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coronavirus-hotspots-and-the-family-clusters-driving-its-spread-20200622-p55504.html

The behaviour of the lebanese untrained security guards is consistent with their behaviour (they are nice guys but subject to temptation) has also been on display for the last eighteen months to the emergency fire services officers securing over thirteen illegal toxic storage dumps during that period there was a 24 hour guard as well as hourly explosive vapour tests. That work finished about six weeks ago.. It is also the subject of daily images and revelations at the ongoing inquiry.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-17/four-corners-cononavirus-australia-victoria-hotel-quarantine/12550832

[Chronic Snoozer]

I posted earlier a link to the Victorian Births Deaths and Marriages website, where they publish monthly totals for the total number of deaths in the State for the previous 12 months. Interestingly, they’ve just updated it to include the total number of deaths in August of this year. Usually they include the previous 12 months so you can compare it to the same time period of the previous year, but conveniently now they’ve included August 2020 figures, but removed the August 2019 figures. Interesting because there was 200 more deaths in Victoria in August 2019 than there was in August 2020, in the midst of pandemic.

This is a screen grab I took a few days ago prior to the update showing the figures up to July 2020, and you’ll notice the July 2019 figures (and August 2019 too - 3892).


And here is a link to the updated August 2020 figures, with the August 2019 figures very conspicuous in their absence, which you can see in the screenshot above.

Deaths registered per month (https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/embridge_cache/emshare/original/public/2020/09/75/9654970d1/Death%20registrations%20by%20month.xlsx)

You're not comparing apples with apples. For the months of Mar-Aug 20 there have been significant restrictions to freedom of movement as well as a social distancing regime. It stands to reason that the deaths have reduced. Not only has the lid been kept on COVID (relatively speaking) there's probably been a positive effect on other causes of death. Presumably any death is included, regardless of cause, in these figures. Granted you did say the figures were interesting and agreed, probably surprising.

There's nothing conspicuous about Aug 19 being missing. It's just a rolling list of 12 months of statistics.

[Joker89]

There's nothing conspicuous about Aug 19 being missing. It's just a rolling list of 12 months of statistics.

however the screen grab is July to July and the current webpage is sep to aug. Something doesn’t add up.

I doubt the amount of deaths from cancer and heart disease were impacted from a lockdown. The reality is that 100 odd deaths in Australia wasn’t going to impact any statistics. Approximately 2000 people in Australia die each month from a respiratory illness. The hypothesis that every COVID death is a death that would not have occurred within 3-6 months or the next year doesn’t hold weight.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Complex issues require complex investigations and answers by people who have plenty of experience, knowledge and temperament. Have a think when you see a professor, an epidemiologist, and public health specialist (like the ones I linked to in my response) etc why they don’t rant angrily non stop about the talking points you’re bringing up

Well....not in public eh?

[wishiwasupthere]

There’s nothing conspicuous about Aug 19 being missing. It's just a rolling list of 12 months of statistics.

So why in the data from last month are the figures from July 2019 to July 2020 shown so a year on year comparison be made, yet for the following month the figures shown are from September 2019 to August 2020? August 2019 is convenient in its absence. I don’t recall us getting a daily running tally of the average 125 people who died per day in Victoria in August last year. It seems like an attempt to obfuscate the data.

[Turnleft080]

Well I never was a AJ fan in fact hardly know him being a vic.
Though the longer this crap goes on the more I lean to him.
Something has to give shortly, we cannot go on like this.
I echo his rant here.


https://youtu.be/Dy2RsNIC1Og

[Ragnor]

It definitely is pure madness. Each day I still can’t believe that we can’t freely move around or even work. These borders will remain closed indefinitely as 28 days will never be achieved. We have lost our way that’s for sure.

[Green.Dot]

Dr Dre looks to be defending the Victorian Governments handling of this in most posts. Close links maybe?

Even putting the Hotel Debacle aside, the simple fact is even the left wing media have highlighted numerous examples of complete incompetence in the Govts ability to deal with many varied scenarios, and that is just the stuff we know about.

One thing I like about most of the posters on PPRUNE is that we are are willing to challenge a bad call. I hope the Victorian public do the same at election time.

[Maggie Island]

I look forward the the government approaching tobacco related deaths with the same zeal as COVID19.

Any party that’s happy to front the next election with a ~1000% tobacco tax will definitely get my vote!

[blubak]

Dr Dre looks to be defending the Victorian Governments handling of this in most posts. Close links maybe?

Even putting the Hotel Debacle aside, the simple fact is even the left wing media have highlighted numerous examples of complete incompetence in the Govts ability to deal with many varied scenarios, and that is just the stuff we know about.

One thing I like about most of the posters on PPRUNE is that we are are willing to challenge a bad call. I hope the Victorian public do the same at election time.
Agree,a bad call is a bad call,lib v lab is not a way to decide who should & shouldnt be in power.
Theres always going to be a decision someone doesnt like but when the decision is this 1 as in the hotel quarantine fiasco just put political parties aside & really ask yourself,was it the right or indeed just a really bad decision that the people of victoria are being punished for now.

[Ragnor]

https://www.afr.com/companies/healthcare-and-fitness/astrazeneca-puts-covid-19-vaccine-trial-on-hold-20200909-p55trm

[Transition Layer]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/astrazeneca-puts-covid-19-vaccine-trial-on-hold-over-safety-concern-20200909-p55ts0.html

Same article, without the paywall.

Waiting patiently for a vaccine is a not a way out of this. ScoMo et al - are you paying attention?

[Xeptu]

I don't see that the states have any choice. Outside of a total lockdown, it's either sectional lockdown and containment, which probably doesn't work anyway (NSW will be the decider) or let it rip. The economic impact is the same either way, particularly around small business, either you can't do the job yourself or supply issues from those businesses you depend upon, same result. View it like rolling strike action from the 70"s. If and when NSW falls, there are two options, shutdown like VIC or let it rip. If you choose the let it rip option then you must accept, your own health system will most likely become overwhelmed and you probably will lose at least one of your own loved ones. Are you willing to make that choice and which will it be.

[Green.Dot]

I don't see that the states have any choice. Outside of a total lockdown, it's either sectional lockdown and containment, which probably doesn't work anyway (NSW will be the decider) or let it rip.

Ignoring Vic and NSW, please just answer this example Xeptu...

With accurate contact tracing in place, how is somebody travelling on a flight from Brisbane to Perth any more risky in terms of COVID spread than somebody travelling from Brisbane to Cairns or Perth to Broome?

This is one such example of how we can work towards getting this sloth-like economy moving a little bit. Some proactiveness is required from our politicians and our individual attitudes!!

[Turnleft080]

I don't see that the states have any choice. Outside of a total lockdown, it's either sectional lockdown and containment, which probably doesn't work anyway (NSW will be the decider) or let it rip. The economic impact is the same either way, particularly around small business, either you can't do the job yourself or supply issues from those businesses you depend upon, same result. View it like rolling strike action from the 70"s. If and when NSW falls, there are two options, shutdown like VIC or let it rip. If you choose the let it rip option then you must accept, your own health system will most likely become overwhelmed and you probably will lose at least one of your own loved ones. Are you willing to make that choice and which will it be.

Let it rip. I'm with you Xeptu. Been saying that for along time as well. However you do that by very strict quarantine the elderly and age care. Total isolation.
While the vaccine has had a hiccup in Oxford this morning a new study came out on vit D from Spain. Let me stress of course it's not a cure though it can prevent deaths.
Basically 76 people with covid over 60s yo put in 2 groups, in hospital.
50 taking vit D -----------------------1 went to ICU ----------------- No deaths.
26 not taking Vit D -----------------13 went to ICU ---------------- 2 deaths.
Can provide the article/study later if you want. Just maybe then the hospitals won't be that overwhelmed.
Fact is the younger generation can start work right now with masks and all that other stuff.
However again, try reversing any decision Dan has made.
Coming up to 6 weeks stage 4 lockdown and the numbers have gone last 3 days 41,55,76.
What does he want zero cases in a 28 day period. Holy bloody struth.

[Xeptu]

Ignoring Vic and NSW, please just answer this example Xeptu...

With accurate contact tracing in place, how is somebody travelling on a flight from Brisbane to Perth any more risky in terms of COVID spread than somebody travelling from Brisbane to Cairns or Perth to Broome?

I would'nt say there is any more or less risk, the issue is "when" the virus arrives. The airlines are parked up because of operational risk, not because they care if you get infected. Trying to keep things moving when you lose one or two crew members is a problem, particularly if those crew members are not in their own home base at the time. You end up with aircraft stuck on the ground all over the place until the whole operation comes to a grinding halt.

[Green.Dot]

I would'nt say there is any more or less risk, the issue is "when" the virus arrives. The airlines are parked up because of operational risk, not because they care if you get infected. Trying to keep things moving when you lose one or two crew members is a problem, particularly if those crew members are not in their own home base at the time. You end up with aircraft stuck on the ground all over the place until the whole operation comes to a grinding halt.

Sorry that makes no sense and doesn’t really answer my question. This isn’t about the airline crew, it’s about moving passengers from A to B and getting the economy moving. I am pretty sure AJ doesn’t want his fleet parked up- the operation is already at a grinding halt. The risk of the locations I gave you with a COVID positive case on board is miniscule. I am still quite confused about your response.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Trying to keep things moving when you lose one or two crew members is a problem, particularly if those crew members are not in their own home base at the time. You end up with aircraft stuck on the ground all over the place until the whole operation comes to a grinding halt.

Completely incorrect assumption Xeptu. Information given through QF Flight Ops weekly Webinars directly from the mouths of Tino, QMed et al says otherwise. Stop posting information as fact you obviously have no knowledge of.

[Xeptu]

Completely incorrect assumption Xeptu. Information given through QF Flight Ops weekly Webinars directly from the mouths of Tino, QMed et al says otherwise. Stop posting information as fact you obviously have no knowledge of.

What difference does it make, the outcome is the same and I'll actually state and that's a fact when it is.

[Green.Dot]

What difference does it make, the outcome is the same and I'll actually state and that's a fact when it is.

I think what people have been trying to tell you for a while is that you may have been involved in aviation once but your views appear a little out of touch with the industry today.

Cheers mate

[Xeptu]

Sorry that makes no sense and doesn’t really answer my question. This isn’t about the airline crew, it’s about moving passengers from A to B and getting the economy moving. I am pretty sure AJ doesn’t want his fleet parked up- the operation is already at a grinding halt. The risk of the locations I gave you with a COVID positive case on board is miniscule. I am still quite confused about your response.

IMHO to appease the fact gatherers. It makes no difference if the borders are open, there still won't be too many passengers travelling anywhere, for what purpose, why do you think we are all going to rush to the airports and travel somewhere. Are you suggesting that alone will restore the economy.

[Green.Dot]

IMHO to appease the fact gatherers. It makes no difference if the borders are open, there still won't be too many passengers travelling anywhere, for what purpose, why do you think we are all going to rush to the airports and travel somewhere. Are you suggesting that alone will restore the economy.

Well there is demand on those INTRA state routes I mentioned and good pax loads. So again that contradicts your opinion. BNE-CNS is the busiest route in Aus right now. But I guess you already knew that.

[Xeptu]

I think what people have been trying to tell you for a while is that you may have been involved in aviation once but your views appear a little out of touch with the industry today.

Cheers mate

What a nonsense! The only difference is I don't fly a heavy anymore, I retired from the Airlines, not from Life. I'm still current and get to bash around in the flight levels when I feel like it. When was the last time you flew, are you sure your views are not out of date, The covid change of life occurred 7 months ago, have you adapted yet.

[Green.Dot]

What a nonsense! The only difference is I don't fly a heavy anymore, I retired from the Airlines, not from Life. I'm still current and get to bash around in the flight levels when I feel like it. When was the last time you flew, are you sure your views are not out of date, The covid change of life occurred 7 months ago, have you adapted yet.

Haven’t flown since Feb. Have adapted.

[dr dre]

IMHO to appease the fact gatherers. It makes no difference if the borders are open, there still won't be too many passengers travelling anywhere, for what purpose, why do you think we are all going to rush to the airports and travel somewhere. Are you suggesting that alone will restore the economy.

I tend to agree. I don't think the return to normal passenger levels will come as a result of governments opening borders, I think it'll come when public confidence to travel returns to a pre Covid state. It may not be until a vaccine is distributed, it may be when the media stops treating this in a sensationalist way. It may be when the spread of the virus is mostly contained, it may be when economic conditions begin to recover. Who knows? Passengers were cancelling trips in great numbers before borders were closed. There is confidence in travelling within states, but I see that as more of a sign of confidence of the public that travelling within that state is safe, rather than solely being allowed to travel within that state.

[Xeptu]

Well there is demand on those INTRA state routes I mentioned and good pax loads. So again that contradicts your opinion. BNE-CNS is the busiest route in Aus right now. But I guess you already knew that.

Which doesn't involve crossing borders, so is Perth to everywhere in WA as well, whats your point

[Xeptu]

I tend to agree. I don't think the return to normal passenger levels will come as a result of governments opening borders, I think it'll come when public confidence to travel returns to a pre Covid state. It may not be until a vaccine is distributed, it may be when the media stops treating this in a sensationalist way. It may be when the spread of the virus is mostly contained, it may be when economic conditions begin to recover. Who knows?Passengers were cancelling trips in great numbers before borders were closed.

Agreed, a quick test will be the game changer. out of interest of those domestic passengers pre covid, how many were travelling to make overseas connections, like our beloved Bali or cruise ships or other international connections., My guess is probably half.

[Ragnor]

IMHO to appease the fact gatherers. It makes no difference if the borders are open, there still won't be too many passengers travelling anywhere, for what purpose, why do you think we are all going to rush to the airports and travel somewhere. Are you suggesting that alone will restore the economy.

Yes it does matter, have you not been reading the stories of despair from general citizens, farmers, business and many others?

The borders being closed is much bigger than a few aircraft parked up and my career at a screaming halt like many others on this forum. Its family's seeking medical attention farmers who have had a horrid decade and now have the opportunity to cash in on recent good weather events its about family's and singles with business that have or will soon face financial ruin and have no way of recovering. Then there is the mental health issue year 12 students already doing the unthinkable and Victorians who have it much harder then the rest of Australia, well what I thought was Australia who know what ppl think now.

Good to see DA finally concede, swallow his pride seek help from NSW to understand why our contact tracing is so successful. NSW is able to manage this as demonstrated from the start. QLD, they're on the brink of an outbreak well before NSW as they don't have the contact tracing ability NSW.

[ruprecht]

What a nonsense! The only difference is I don't fly a heavy anymore, I retired from the Airlines, not from Life. I'm still current and get to bash around in the flight levels when I feel like it. When was the last time you flew, are you sure your views are not out of date, The covid change of life occurred 7 months ago, have you adapted yet.
Let me guess Xeptu...

Retired, best years of your life behind you. Travelled widely in your 20s - 60s. But travelling now is becoming difficult, not to mention how rude people are nowadays - and the crowds - this place was way better when we were here in 1975... Did I mention how rude people are nowadays? Plus places are way hotter than they used to be, and dirtier, and no one appreciates how much better this place was in 1975 despite how many times you tell them... and the travel insurance premiums are ridiculous... so you don’t really care much for travel anymore so it’s really no skin off your nose if we close the borders and don’t travel.

But here’s the thing, plenty of people still want to travel. They’re just younger than you. You got old and over cautious: it happens to everyone and now it’s happened to you.

[Xeptu]

Yes it does matter, have you not been reading the stories of despair from general citizens, farmers, business and many others?

The borders being closed is much bigger than a few aircraft parked up and my career at a screaming halt like many others on this forum. Its family's seeking medical attention farmers who have had a horrid decade and now have the opportunity to cash in on recent good weather events its about family's and singles with business that have or will soon face financial ruin and have no way of recovering. Then there is the mental health issue year 12 students already doing the unthinkable and Victorians who have it much harder then the rest of Australia, well what I thought was Australia who know what ppl think now.

Good to see DA finally concede, swallow his pride seek help from NSW to understand why our contact tracing is so successful. NSW is able to manage this as demonstrated from the start. QLD, they're on the brink of an outbreak well before NSW as they don't have the contact tracing ability NSW.

And I agree with you, I am very mindful of what's going on around me and my businesses are impacted, just not as badly as some, but I did design it that way so that it wouldn't be. I am a product of black wednesday 1987. On that note the markets are taking a bit of a spanking today, so I have plenty of time to chat.

[Xeptu]

Let me guess Xeptu...

Retired, best years of your life behind you. Travelled widely in your 20s - 60s. But travelling now is becoming difficult, not to mention how rude people are nowadays - and the crowds - this place was way better when we were here in 1975... Did I mention how rude people are nowadays? Plus places are way hotter than they used to be, and dirtier, and no one appreciates how much better this place was in 1975 despite how many times you tell them... and the travel insurance premiums are ridiculous... so you don’t really care much for travel anymore so it’s really no skin off your nose if we close the borders and don’t travel.

But here’s the thing, plenty of people still want to travel. They’re just younger than you. You got old and over cautious: it happens to everyone and now it’s happened to you.

Hell NO! The last ten years, particularly after I retired from the airlines have been the very best years. My 20 year old grandson, god damn **** kid, reminds me I'm old most days. :)
P.S I don't know how we ever managed without, mobile phones, laptops, tablets, GPS and vehicles that don't break down

[Xeptu]

Did I mention how rude people are nowadays?

I have always been ruder. Only yesterday I stood behind a young lady at the shop counter that had on the back of her teeshirt, today is just a high heels and lingerie day. As she walked away I said to her, so what happened to just the high heels and lingerie.

[ruprecht]

I have always been ruder. Only yesterday I stood behind a young lady at the shop counter that had on the back of her teeshirt, today is just a high heels and lingerie day. As she walked away I said to her, so what happened to just the high heels and lingerie.
Smooth... :rolleyes:

[brokenagain]

As she walked away I said to her, so what happened to just the high heels and lingerie.

‘The girls’ must be proud. It’s creepy just reading it.

[Green.Dot]

‘The girls’ must be proud. It’s creepy just reading it.

Did I previously mention “out of touch“?

[Xeptu]

Did I previously mention “out of touch“?

You did and there in lies your answer, perhaps that's the real problem with the world.

[Green.Dot]

You did and there in lies your answer, perhaps that's the real problem with the world.

Ha ha, you have to be taking the p!ss.

Xeptu says “it’s not me, it’s the world”

[Xeptu]

Well there's a counter argument for everything. I only want to know one thing. If your state falls, there are 2 options, lock down or let it rip. Which way will you vote.

[jrfsp]

Of fairly significant news today, is BHP permanently axing interstate FIFO roles instead opting for WA based staff. I can see the other big resource companies following suit. This will have significant demand impacts in my view

[Turnleft080]

Of fairly significant news today, is BHP permanently axing interstate FIFO roles instead opting for WA based staff. I can see the other big resource companies following suit. This will have significant demand impacts in my view
Was that an executive order from Dan was it. We can't have any Victorians making money. That is just not on. Not on my watch.
Send them back to the leper colony.

[Maggie Island]

Was that an executive order from Dan was it. We can't have any Victorians making money. That is just not on. Not on my watch.
Send them back to the leper colony.

Melbourne?

[Ragnor]

This will be interesting to see how it pans out, they couldn't fill those mining potions pre covid by WA residents obviously otherwise they wouldn't need eastern state workers to begin with.

[goodonyamate]

Well there's a counter argument for everything. I only want to know one thing. If your state falls, there are 2 options, lock down or let it rip. Which way will you vote.


let it rip. We can’t go on like this forever. The screaming will get louder when other people are affected by the end of jobkeeper.

[dr dre]

Of fairly significant news today, is BHP permanently axing interstate FIFO roles instead opting for WA based staff. I can see the other big resource companies following suit. This will have significant demand impacts in my view

Obviously BHP isn't going to be getting FIFO workers from out of state into WA for the short term, so any new positions would obviously be staffed with WA locals. It would also save these companies money as I'm told the costs of moving out of state workers temporarily to WA are quite expensive. However, after the borders have come down, I would expect these requirements to be dropped, as there wouldn't need to be any need for them. Interstate FIFO is only a small proportion of overall FIFO anyway. You'd find mostly the companies would only pay for a ticket to/from Perth, and those who chose to live interstate then would buy their own ticket to their state of residence anyway. Once they're off their shift the mining company cannot control their movement.

I don't think a long term imposition of one state only residence would be constitutional anyway. Section 117 of the Constitution resident in any State, shall not be subject in any other State to any disability or discrimination which would not be equally applicable to him if he were a subject of the Queen resident in such other state. So whilst it could be imposed whilst borders are closed once borders are open they wouldn't be able to get away with it.

[KRviator]

Of fairly significant news today, is BHP permanently axing interstate FIFO roles instead opting for WA based staff. I can see the other big resource companies following suit. This will have significant demand impacts in my viewNot really.. It's only for new positions. If enough WA residents wanted to actually do the bloody job in the first palce, there wouldn't be any need for interstate FIFO. The simple fact is, not enough of them want to do it, or are reliable enough (by that I mean actually taking the job and staying in it) to do the work. As recently as last month there were jobs going for loco driver's to do FIFO into Port Hedland with flights paid for to any capital city, not just Perth. When BHP find they can't get enough locals to do the job, we'll be right back where they were.

BHP to axe interstate FIFO work as mining industry conforms to WA's 'hard borders'
By Nathan Hondros (https://www.watoday.com.au/by/nathan-hondros-h0ywjt) and Hamish Hastie (https://www.watoday.com.au/by/hamish-hastie-h0ywju)September 8, 2020 — 10.11pm

BHP will shift much of its interstate FIFO workforce to Western Australia in the face of the state's border restrictions, requiring new operational employees to live in the state or be willing to move there. The move is in response to pressure from the state government, which has urged WA's resources sector to relocate its 7000-strong interstate workforce to reduce the risk of COVID-19 entering the state.

Before the pandemic interstate mine workers, a majority living in Queensland, supplemented WA's workforce. But BHP will now give preference to West Australian job applicants for operational jobs in its iron ore, nickel and petroleum operations, with some exceptions for maintenance and project based jobs. All job advertisements will stipulate the requirement that candidates must live in or be willing to move to WA for the duration of their employment.

The company has offered financial assistance for interstate employees to temporarily relocate to WA, which has resulted in over 800 employees moving to the state. The resources giant also offered incentives for employees already on the books willing to move to WA permanently.

Premier Mark McGowan has been on record urging resources companies to do more to move workers to WA or to employ WA workers first.

He said BHP had set a new benchmark for the rest of the industry, and encouraged other mining companies to follow. Mr McGowan said the move would have a positive impact across the state's economy, with more income generated from mining staying in WA.

"It means more West Australians will be employed in our resources industry," he said. "I look forward to more people making WA their home, just like I did when I was in the Navy and relocated to WA. "We don’t believe flying in workers from over east is sustainable any longer."

After the state closed its borders in April, the industry was forced to negotiate travel exemptions and strict quarantines for its interstate workers."This is the time for the resources industry to rethink the way it employs workers in WA and move interstate workers here," Mr McGowan said.

"WA workers should be first in line for WA jobs. There are many West Australians that can perform the roles needed in the sector." Mr McGowan has asked the federal government to assist in helping it fill jobs in regional areas while the WA border is closed, calling on Prime Minister Scott Morrison to allow West Australians to keep their JobKeeper payments if they take up employment outside of major population centres. Source (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/bhp-to-axe-interstate-fifo-work-as-mining-industry-conforms-to-wa-s-hard-borders-20200908-p55tpg.html)

[neville_nobody]

WA workers should be first in line for WA jobs. There are many West Australians that can perform the roles needed in the sector." Mr McGowan has asked the federal government to assist in helping it fill jobs in regional areas while the WA border is closed, calling on Prime Minister Scott Morrison to allow West Australians to keep their JobKeeper payments if they take up employment outside of major population centre

So they want the Federal Government to pay for their decision to keep their borders closed again?

[LapSap]

IMHO to appease the fact gatherers. It makes no difference if the borders are open, there still won't be too many passengers travelling anywhere, for what purpose, why do you think we are all going to rush to the airports and travel somewhere. Are you suggesting that alone will restore the economy.

Well you better ask the pax on the couple of thousand flights that I could see around me on my long range surveillance system at work in SE Asia this morning.....
Domestic traffic looking pretty lively in Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia to name a few.
Sure, cross border traffic is still slow til countries start trusting each other.
But gee, I guess they reckon its worth getting on with their lives! Hard as it may seem for you to imagine. Or you just think they're being reckless.

[exfocx]

Plenty of these present interstate based FIFO started when there was a massive demand that couldn't be filled from here, however thats not been the case for a while, unfortunately for the companies you just can't sack workers because you've found a closer replacement. So those who are flying in at the expense of their employer are safe.

[exfocx]

Well you better ask the pax on the couple of thousand flights that I could see around me on my long range surveillance system at work in SE Asia this morning.....
Domestic traffic looking pretty lively in Japan, Korea, China, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia to name a few.
Sure, cross border traffic is still slow til countries start trusting each other.
But gee, I guess they reckon its worth getting on with their lives! Hard as it may seem for you to imagine. Or you just think they're being reckless.


Does your long range surveillance system also give you the load factor? Have a rellie in the US with Delta, lots of flights back up but loads way down.

Don't know if you read much, but lots of the data shows that where they have taken a lackadaisical approach to control the economy has taken a BIGGER hit than where they haven't. Now, maybe it's just my perverted view, but I'd have thought that if that's the case you expect that would flow through to people flying as well.

[Turnleft080]

Melbourne?

Hey Maggie thanks for pointing out Melbourne is the capital of the leper colony.
Our health officer Mr Sutton actually threw Dan under the bus today.
Mr Sutton through all this wonderful modelling advised us today that the curfew was not calculated
when the road map was constructed. "Quite frankly not to sure where that came from".
This 8pm to 5am curfew looks like a mandated Danism he may of picked up when the Chinese brainwashed him
while walking along the Great China Wall. The one that keeps the rabbits out. Consulted only with the constabulary
which was given the powers to arrest grandmas sitting on park benches and pregnant women. The supercomputer never spat that out.
Dan gave it a good old bang like a B&W tv set still no joy on curfew. Stuff it it's now implicated.
Labor backbenches now starting to sweat. I wonder why? Interesting road map. Can't see any bitumen yet, all
gravel, pot holes, wet boggy patches.

[Green.Dot]

Our health officer Mr Sutton actually threw Dan under the bus today.
Mr Sutton through all this wonderful modelling advised us today that the curfew was not calculated
when the road map was constructed. "Quite frankly not to sure where that came from"

Well I hope Sutton doesn’t get the sack and locked up for challenging his leader. Dictator Dan will have him moved on in no time if he questions his decision making.

[Xeptu]

let it rip. We can’t go on like this forever. The screaming will get louder when other people are affected by the end of jobkeeper.

Well at least you have the balls to stand up and be counted, I respect that, well done you. it appears the rest of the soft cock whingers on here choose to quietly merge with the popular opinion when the time comes. what a surprise, not.

[thisishardtochoose]

Hey Maggie thanks for pointing out Melbourne is the capital of the leper colony.
Our health officer Mr Sutton actually threw Dan under the bus today.
Mr Sutton through all this wonderful modelling advised us today that the curfew was not calculated
when the road map was constructed. "Quite frankly not to sure where that came from".
This 8pm to 5am curfew looks like a mandated Danism he may of picked up when the Chinese brainwashed him
while walking along the Great China Wall. The one that keeps the rabbits out. Consulted only with the constabulary
which was given the powers to arrest grandmas sitting on park benches and pregnant women. The supercomputer never spat that out.
Dan gave it a good old bang like a B&W tv set still no joy on curfew. Stuff it it's now implicated.
Labor backbenches now starting to sweat. I wonder why? Interesting road map. Can't see any bitumen yet, all
gravel, pot holes, wet boggy patches.

Came from the Victorian Police Commissioner.

Turnleft, You and I don't agree to much, but take this advice. Get some rest for the next couple of days and let go of the technology and media

[Turnleft080]

Well I hope Sutton doesn’t get the sack and locked up for challenging his leader. Dictator Dan will have him moved on in no time if he questions his decision making.

I don't think it will come to that, if it did that will indicate to all vics they have hit the panic button. It feels like though they have already hit the panic button.
To put it aeronautically Dan has lost situational awareness. The stall warning is blaring, wing buffet occurred, AoA exceeded 16, nose & wing dropped and now he is in a spin.
Question is will he recover, does he know how to recover.

Roger thisishardtochoose. switching off have a good evening.

[Xeptu]

Roger thisishardtochoose. switching off have a good evening.

Seat Belt sign off

[Ragnor]

Well at least you have the balls to stand up and be counted, I respect that, well done you. it appears the rest of the soft cock whingers on here choose to quietly merge with the popular opinion when the time comes. what a surprise, not.

that’s two for let it rip, cancel Jobkeeper tomorrow also expose the real unemployment and zombie business

[Xeptu]

that’s two for let it rip, cancel Jobkeeper tomorrow also expose the real unemployment and zombie business

Not sure what you mean with reveal zombie business, The real unemployment is 13.7% and expected to rise nearer 20% by end of year.
That's dependant on what happens in NSW, if it falls then GDP will fall to minus 10% as well.

[vne165]

Xeptu,
keep at it mate.

https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/

[currawong]

Why we are not "letting it rip", from an epidemiologist. Old news, btw.

"allowing it to just rip through the community does not get rid of it. What happens is, you have cycling epidemics" - Professor Raina MacIntyre (MBBS Hons 1, FRACP, FAFPHM, M App Epid, PhD) is NHMRC Principal Research Fellow and Professor of Global Biosecurity.

https://vimeo.com/405717515

[thisishardtochoose]

Xeptu,
keep at it mate.

https://www.coviddoctorsnetwork.com/

And not one of them is an Epidemiologist. I wouldn't be surprised these Doctors are only speaking up because it's actually hurting their own pockets and are being egged on by the Victorian Libs

[vne165]

And not one of them is an Epidemiologist. I wouldn't be surprised these Doctors are only speaking up because it's actually hurting their own pockets and are being egged on by the Victorian Libs
No, perhaps not Epidemiologists.
But they are learned.
That counts.

[thisishardtochoose]

No, perhaps not Epidemiologists.
But they are learned.
That counts.

You don't send a Heart surgeon to conduct brain surgeries or vice versa.

So no it does not count.

[dr dre]

And not one of them is an Epidemiologist. I wouldn't be surprised these Doctors are only speaking up because it's actually hurting their own pockets and are being egged on by the Victorian Libs

Well the 13 signatories have increased to 18 but still far short of the 500 they are claiming. Who are the other 482 senior doctors as they say who have put their names to this letter but haven’t been named on their website?

As far as the named signers go, there’s quite a few of them who have some far out political views (https://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/15/anti-gay-doctor-falls-on-sword-as-religious-links-mount/), and who actively run political campaigns on them. (https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/1754258/ballarat-surgeon-peter-denton-distributed-gay-marriage-pamphlet/) Fundamentalist Christians (https://www.christianstoryteller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160:john-mathai-dr-mbbs-frcpsych&catid=39:authors&Itemid=157) and a lot of anti gay views too. (https://en.s4c.news/2020/05/31/australian-medical-conference-defends-christian-vision-amid-lgbt-pressure/) Leading me to believe it’s a small group of fundamentalist doctors with a political motive not a health one.

[Buster Hyman]

Interesting road map. Can't see any bitumen yet, all gravel, pot holes, wet boggy patches.
Don't worry, we have a Belt & Road plan for that.

Sad to see the country revert to party lines & State Parochialism that hasn't existed for roughly 120 years now.

[Telfer86]

It will be interesting to see the latest BIRE data when it is released , think for month of June 19 as compared to June 20 went from
5 million to 400k. I think August 20 will be much worse , maybe around 200 k of RPT

So lifting about 4% of total load, domestic is effectively closed

To a large degree what is occurring OS just isn't relevant to the decision making here , our guys/gals(State/Territory leaders) are on their own path, genuinely believe they know
more & are the smartest going around. & that you Joe Average citizen is stupid & ignorant - that is why they talk to you with bubsy babytalk

Only states that are open to each other are SA, Qld, NT ; Tas ? - impossible to tell from online information what they are doing

WA closed to everyone & QLD stating they will remain closed to Vic/NSW until 28 days of zero new cases (hasn't been achieved anywhere)

Everywhere (aside from NT , but 14 days quarantine) closed to NSW & Vic , NSW closed to Vic , Vic open to all Aussies (as is NSW , aside from Vic ?)

It's difficult to get your head around how complex it is in Australia atm. What is ACT doing ?

It is looking fairly certain domestic will remain as it is now (effectively closed) over the summer holiday period , likely what the State & Territory leaders
want

Domestic to "maybe" start proper beginning of 2021 , assuming Vic gets Covid under control & no third wave & no significant outbreak elsewhere in Australia & no imported
cases if one of our illustrious State Leaders does a dash for cash by allowing large numbers of OS students back early 2021 & then mucking up hotel quarantine. How could that happen with the team of living legends we have running our states & territories - they are the best of the best

You can throw all the data & expert medical & science opinions to our State & Territory leaders , they won't listen. All just loving the attention & limelight right now
running their own little fiefdoms

Great if people are organising petitions, I just think it you got all the medicos/scientists who aren't on the Govt payroll these characters will just raise
both middle fingers , give you an arrogant put down & then ignore you

The only concern of the Vict Govt is re-election, the fact that many people have passed as a direct result of how they handled many aspects
of Covid is of absolutely no consideration. It is firstly about your own personal political survival and then party re-election & hopefully a greater majority, the number of bodies in the ground - that doesn't come into it

Not good numbers domestic at 4% ,international (meaning QF/VA/JQ) at 0% , 7.5 months in

[highflyer40]

Any party that’s happy to front the next election with a ~1000% tobacco tax will definitely get my vote!

To start with I’m a non smoker and hate the smell. The big BUT here is would you also vote in that same party with a 1000% tax on alcohol? It’s a bit hypocritical to jump on the things you don’t like and deprive a fellow citizen but not feel the same about your own vices.

[Maggie Island]

To start with I’m a non smoker and hate the smell. The big BUT here is would you also vote in that same party with a 1000% tax on alcohol? It’s a bit hypocritical to jump on the things you don’t like and deprive a fellow citizen but not feel the same about your own vices.

Look, I dare say I would (after hoarding my favourite drops) but it also would be political suicide so a little academic.

[Sunfish]

My advice from the police was that everybody has an excuse why they were out all the time. The only way to stop the BS was quarantine. It also helped the police in other ways. The only illegal drivers were crooks. There have been some magnificent car chases as a result - with no bystanders to get injured. One was so long that a police chopper actually stopped to refuel.

[Turnleft080]

My advice from the police was that everybody has an excuse why they were out all the time. The only way to stop the BS was quarantine. It also helped the police in other ways. The only illegal drivers were crooks. There have been some magnificent car chases as a result - with no bystanders to get injured. One was so long that a police chopper actually stopped to refuel.

The attack of the phone snatches have reaped in $165,000 bucks a night after 8pm.

[601]

And not one of them is an Epidemiologist.


As far as the named signers go, there’s quite a few of them who have some far out political views (https://www.crikey.com.au/2012/05/15/anti-gay-doctor-falls-on-sword-as-religious-links-mount/), and who actively run political campaigns on them. (https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/1754258/ballarat-surgeon-peter-denton-distributed-gay-marriage-pamphlet/) Fundamentalist Christians (https://www.christianstoryteller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160:john-mathai-dr-mbbs-frcpsych&catid=39:authors&Itemid=157) and a lot of anti gay views too. (https://en.s4c.news/2020/05/31/australian-medical-conference-defends-christian-vision-amid-lgbt-pressure/) Leading me to believe it’s a small group of fundamentalist doctors with a political motive not a health one.


These views sound very similar to comments when debating CC.

[dr dre]

These views sound very similar to comments when debating CC.

You’re exactly right, just replace “climate scientist” with “epidemiologist”....:

“who cares what those biased “scientists” with their “PhDs” and their “decades of experience” in climatology who work for laughable groups like NASA or the CSIRO think, I’ve watched a couple of YouTube clips of Alan Jones and read some Andrew Bolt columns, so I know infinitely more about this topic than the “so called experts”.....”

[Ragnor]

Looks like the border closures are creating some issues, how long will Queen P hold her ground!

Coronavirus: Bereaved daughter Sarah Caisip allowed to view dad’s body but not to attend funeralhttps://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/689ed1544fcb749436825ef0f321bca5?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/689ed1544fcb749436825ef0f321bca5)Sarah Caisip (left) with her father Bernard Prendergast and younger sister Isobel Prendergast, 11

Sarah Elks (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Sarah+Elks)
Queensland Political Reporter
@sarahelks (http://twitter.com/sarahelks)
https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/component/author/67c79f5a424fa2e22e82025073fdb6bf/?esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget&td_bio=false&td_location=none
22 minutes ago September 10, 2020
4 Comments (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/coronavirus-bereaved-daughter-sarah-caisip-allowed-to-view-dads-body-but-not-to-attend-funeral/news-story/26030ab4e7dfacb30103289e1aa8b328#coral)

Bereaved young Canberra woman Sarah Caisip, in quarantine in Queensland, has been granted a last minute exemption to view her father’s body after an outcry over the state government’s treatment of her.

Queensland’s Chief Health Officer Jeannette Young granted the exemption early Thursday afternoon. However the 26-year-old will not be able to attend the funeral in Brisbane on Thursday afternoon, despite Prime Minister Scott Morrison ringing Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk about the case this morning.

Ms Caisip is stuck in hotel quarantine after fighting to enter Queensland, from COVID-free-Canberra, to see her father before he lost his battle with cancer.

Unable to say goodbye to her dad, Ms Caisip was devastated to be refused permission to attend his funeral,

The Australian understands Ms Caisip will now be allowed to attend a private viewing after the funeral. It is not clear whether she will be able to see her grieving mother and 11-year-old sister.

In a letter tabled in parliament by the LNP Opposition, Ms Caisip pleaded to be allowed out of quarantine. She said her father died on September 2, but she had been denied an exemption to attend his funeral.

“Dear Premier, my dad is dead and you made me fight to see him, but it was too late, and now you won’t let me go to his funeral, or see my devastated 11 year old sister,” Ms Caisip’s letter reads.

“The fact that I’m being denied my basic human rights to care for my grief-stricken mother and little 11-year-old sister enrages, disgusts and devastates me at the same time.”

Mr Morrison earlier on Thursday made an impassioned plea to Ms Palaszczuk to allow Ms Caisip to attend the funeral.

The Prime Minister, who struggled to talk at times when reflecting on his own father’s death earlier this year, said he had spoken with Ms Palaszczuk this morning to appeal for an exemption for Sarah.

“I appealed to overrule the decision that would allow Sarah to go to the funeral today and to be honest, it’s not about borders. It’s not about Federation, it’s not about politicians, it’s not about elections,” he told 2GB.

“The only thing that matters today is that Sarah can be with her 11-year-old sister, Isabel, and her mother Myrna to mourn the passing of their father and husband.”.

Mr Morrison said it was heartbreaking Ms Caisip had missed the opportunity to say farewell to her dad because she was in quarantine.

“All of us who have been through that process know how important a day like today is,” Mr Morrison said, his voice breaking. “It’s still fresh in my mind.”

“This isn’t about the Premier of Queensland and me or anyone else – it’s just about that. Surely, in the midst of all of this, in COVID, and everything that everyone’s going through. Surely just this once. This can be done. It can be done,” he said. “There’s been no COVID cases in the ACT for more than 60 days.”

“I just hope they don’t change their mind.”

Health Minister Greg Hunt called on the Premier to “show compassion” and change her mind to allow Ms Caisip to attend her father’s funeral.

Mr Hunt said the Commonwealth had worked quietly behind-the-scenes on many cases, which had resulted in a positive outcome for those involved.

“I know that the Prime Minister and myself and so many others are urging the Queensland Government to show compassion,” he said.

“This is a very difficult situation and somebody facing the loss, the agony that Sarah has faced, as we all do at different times in our journeys, I think is deserving of compassion and we have quietly worked behind-the-scenes on many cases with many states and had very strong compassionate outcomes and I would gently, but clearly, urge the Queensland Government to show compassion in this case.”

Asked specifically about the Queensland government’s decision to allow Ms Caisip to have a private viewing of her father’s body, but not attend today’s funeral, Mr Hunt said there needed to be a transparent system where people could appeal decisions.

“We would like to see a very transparent system,” he said. “So there is a capacity to appeal for exemptions or compassionate or other grounds... and there is a transparent process to make that appeal.”

Mr Hunt said he thought the most sensible and compassionate thing to do with regard to Ms Caisip’s case is if she were able to attend the full funeral in a “COVID-Safe way”.

“I think that would be the most humane, compassionate thing to do.”

Earlier, Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton attacked Ms Palaszczuk, saying people were suffering because of her “pig headed” border policies.

“This young lady, tragically, will be scarred for life. She’s missed her father’s dying moments, she’s going to miss the funeral and these are obviously moments you can’t get back,” he told 2GB.

“This is Australia in the 21st century. There can be border restrictions put in place if there are good health reasons for it but there’s no health reason, there’s no argument from the doctors here in Queensland for the borders to be shut.

“It’s all for political reasons and unfortunately a lot of people are suffering and feel the consequences of this action.”

Mr Dutton urged the bureaucrats involved in the case to use discretion, saying it was unnecessary to prohibit someone from Canberra – where there have been no new coronavirus cases for more than 60 days – from entering Queensland.

“It’s really upsetting and heartbreaking,” he said.

“I just can’t understand why the government would put someone through that extra grief.”

On Thursday morning Ms Palaszczuk defended the decision.

Opposition leader Deb Frecklington asked Ms Palaszczuk to order a review into “Sarah’s case,” but Ms Palaszczuk said it was “disgusting” that the LNP would raise a personal case in parliament, even though the LNP said it had been asked to by Ms Caisip.

“Everything we do in this house is about saving people’s lives from a pandemic no one asked for,” Ms Palaszczuk said.

She said the bullying and intimidation she had faced over the border closures were the worst she’d seen, to which Opposition MPs interjected: “the Premier is not the victim”.

Ms Palaszczuk said Ms Caisip’s case was “absolutely tragic” but she did not make decisions about exemptions, the Ms Young did.

Opposition health spokesman Chris Bowen refused to say Ms Palaszczuk was wrong to deny MS Caisip access to her father’s funeral, but encouraged “everybody to take as compassionate approach as possible” based on health advice.

“In every case exemptions that are put in place for various reasons, they will be and should be worked through as cooperatively and carefully and compassionately as possible,” Mr Bowen said.

“We have to say we’re all in it together, we have to mean it. While the border restrictions are very important, and we continue to support all premiers regardless of partisanship in those decisions they’ve taken based on health advice, of course there will need to be exemptions made and exemptions are made.”Sarah Elks (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Sarah+Elks)Queensland Political Reporter

[Green.Dot]

C’mon Ragnor, let’s not be too critical of Premier Pinochet! It’s all in the interests of public health ;)

[MrPeabody]

You’re exactly right, just replace “climate scientist” with “epidemiologist”....:

“who cares what those biased “scientists” with their “PhDs” and their “decades of experience” in climatology who work for laughable groups like NASA or the CSIRO think, I’ve watched a couple of YouTube clips of Alan Jones and read some Andrew Bolt columns, so I know infinitely more about this topic than the “so called experts”.....”
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1038x576/untitled_design_3_c3330326e93d0ed75332c0fef919cdb3e93f0d37.p ng
A good read on the scientific experts of today!
https://www.euroscientist.com/a-reflection-on-current-academia-reality-is-it-gaining-religious-features/

[Turnleft080]

A question to Dr dre
In the mid 80s we had a disease called AIDS. Did the WHO advise all governments
to shut down the economies and tell all pollies to close all borders. Did the premiers at the time
give out curfews. All they said is go via the chemist to practice your horizontal recreation.
The grim reaper adds were like the population is doomed as we know it.
We didn't have the premier coming to the mic, day in day out, saying we have so many deaths in their age groups.....
It would of been John Cain at the time. He wouldn't be carrying on like this drongo we got at the moment.
AIDS & Covid. Two diseases that will put you in a box though going about it very differently.
Use a condom for one and use a face mask, sanitiser, and whatever social distance for the other.
Doesn't make sense does it. I know stupid isn't it. Can't wait for the mixed answers on this one.

[rcoight]

So, if we should ignore the opinions of any doctor who isn’t an epidemiologist, it follows that I’m right to ignore the likes of Tim Flannery, as he’s not a climate scientist.
Got it.

[dr dre]

A question to Dr dre
In the mid 80s we had a disease called AIDS. Did the WHO advise all governments
to shut down the economies and tell all pollies to close all borders. Did the premiers at the time
give out curfews.

One is a communicable primarily respiratory flu like illness transmitted by close contact, coughing or sneezing.
The other is transmitted only via intercourse, IV needle sharing and blood transfusions. Two totally different methods of transmission for two totally different viruses so obviously the responses will be different.

The grim reaper adds were like the population is doomed as we know it.

The Grim Reaper Ad campaign was considered so successful it gave Australia one of the lowest HIV and AIDS rates in the world.

[exfocx]

[QUOTE=Telfer86;10881759]..........WA closed to everyone & QLD stating they will remain closed to Vic/NSW until 28 days of zero new cases (hasn't been achieved anywhere).........................[/QUO

I believe it's 28 days of no new community transmissions.

[exfocx]

A question to Dr dre
In the mid 80s we had a disease called AIDS. Did the WHO advise all governments
to shut down the economies and tell all pollies to close all borders. Did the premiers at the time
give out curfews. All they said is go via the chemist to practice your horizontal recreation.
The grim reaper adds were like the population is doomed as we know it.
We didn't have the premier coming to the mic, day in day out, saying we have so many deaths in their age groups.....
It would of been John Cain at the time. He wouldn't be carrying on like this drongo we got at the moment.
AIDS & Covid. Two diseases that will put you in a box though going about it very differently.
Use a condom for one and use a face mask, sanitiser, and whatever social distance for the other.
Doesn't make sense does it. I know stupid isn't it. Can't wait for the mixed answers on this one.

Your question is why, I for one, am glad that most people are happy for our STATE politicians to allow their decisions to be driven by the medical experts. I can see people having opinions that are driven by personal belief / political / financial position etc, but this!!!

[Xeptu]

A question to Dr dre
In the mid 80s we had a disease called AIDS. Did the WHO advise all governments
to shut down the economies and tell all pollies to close all borders. Did the premiers at the time
give out curfews. All they said is go via the chemist to practice your horizontal recreation.

I was Aeromedical at the time, we were clad up like surgeons, complete with booties. I'll be honest, we were ****ting out pants because we had young children and didn't know how it was transmitted. The fear and unknown lasted about 2 months when with a sigh of relief the news came, it's ok guys it's blood to blood, you can lose the protective gear and became limited to the paramedics only when the patient was bleeding. The grim reaper campaign went on for some time after that. International travel back then was only qantas and a minuscule of what it is today. (well before march anyway)

[KRviator]

..........WA closed to everyone & QLD stating they will remain closed to Vic/NSW until 28 days of zero new cases (hasn't been achieved anywhere).........................I believe it's 28 days of no new community transmissions.28 Days of no new community transmission from unknown sources. But if you read the Judges' comments in the Palmer trial, it goes above that even, to the point where if they don't know if there's unknown transmission or not they'll keep the border closed too...I consider that the views of Associate Professor Lokuge and Professor Blakely that the Western Australian border should remain closed to any place with community transmission from unknown sources within the last 28 days should be extrapolated to the situation where it is unknown whether there is ongoing community transmission from unknown sources.
Reference: Palmer v WA (No 4) Pg. 66 [291]

EDIT: And as a guide, NSW's best run in that regard to date has been 22 days, followed by 13 and then 10 days.

[Joker89]

I just don’t understand how you can trust an expert who is paid to give advice to help the pay master spin their yarn.

[exfocx]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1038x576/untitled_design_3_c3330326e93d0ed75332c0fef919cdb3e93f0d37.p ng
A good read on the scientific experts of today!
https://www.euroscientist.com/a-reflection-on-current-academia-reality-is-it-gaining-religious-features/

Yes, just read the first few paragraphs and I agree, but you obviously didn't read much as you've have understood where he was heading with this and whom he was criticising.

"Science is probably the last bastion of true freethinking but is being swallowed by this make-money-get-profit world. Science and scientists are becoming more and more detached from the pure curiosity that once drove them, and they are embracing this notion of profitable science, which means that an idea must first be sold in order to be explored."

I wonder where this is heading......?

"In naturally profitable scientific fields, for e.g. pharmacology, biotechnology or applied physics, the price is lower, and usually consists on adjusting the direction of a certain study to the best economic outcome."

Well, I expected that! But what followed was also no surprise:

"........But what when there is no direct profit? Fundamental science (https://www.euroscientist.com/?s=Fundamental+science), for example. To be able to sell it in order to get funding a scientist is frequently forced to bend or adjust the narrative used to describe its project. From that moment onwards, it doesn’t matter how hard he will then fight to ignore the adaptations used in the marketing plan. His focus, his scientific agenda is forever deviated, since he must present results in line with what was proposed. One good example is how climate change is frequently introduced into projects which have nothing to do with it."

And the same with this:

"We are embracing, in science and as scientists, the same values and rules of the financial markets (https://www.euroscientist.com/?s=financial+markets). We have transformed it into the monetisation of science (see Horton, 2016). This means that no longer the primary goal of science is to increase knowledge for the growth and prosperity of mankind but to obtain profits and be economically strong, under present neoliberal economic principles" So those same neoliberal economic principles which are damaging our societies are also responsible for pulling down our higher education; surprise, surprise!

And on it goes with pointing out the present failures in the world's higher education systems. But I think your wedded anti science view has clouded your ability to read this with an independent mind, allowing you to jump to the conclusion that this piece supports your political views, but it doesn't. Sure, there are problems, but this piece doesn't provide evidence that the system has corrupted the science that is used to support the view on CC or CV. The argument on "peer" reviewed work is well known and there is a scientist in Melb who has taken it upon herself to shine a light on this problem and she has had a reasonable amount of media expose for it recently (last 6 mths or so). A lot of this "peer" reviewed work is out of very low level journals (and a reasonable % out of China) and are large part of the problem is the need for published "research" by Unis etc. So for peer reviewed work, it's the standing of the journal that matters, claiming peer reviewed means nothing if the journal is of low standing, and the highest standing journals guard their reputations because without them, they're are worthless.

However, conflating this issue with all climate science is pure rubbish, most of the direction on CC is coming from the likes of, Australia: CSIRO, BoM, previous Fed Gov Chief Gov Scientist, UNSW CC unit, US: NASA's Goddard Institute, NOAA, Academy of Sciences, US equiv of BoM, UK: Royal Society (oldest science org in the world), UK Academy of Science. Afaik, every reputable science org supports the consensus on CC. We are not talking bottom of the rung science, we are taking the top levels.

The article also points out the profit driven area of science these days, that being the bio / pharma areas. So who is corrupting the actual outcome of science, those at the bottom rung or the profit driven areas. Who provides the money for all of these web based anti CC stances? The fossil fuel and vested interests in not wanting any change that will impact their profitability.

I'm not wedded to CC, for the life of me I cannot see for me, an emotional benefit and definitely no financial benefit in accepting CC, or CV responses. Why would a normal person want to, with all of the negative outcomes of that acceptance. For me it's simple, the bulk to the science supports it. Unfortunately we now have to endure that fallout.

Mr Peabody, the article doesn't support your view, you've conflated it with your beliefs.

Edit: "A good read on the scientific experts of today! " Yeah nah. It isn't a read of scientific experts today, it's a comment on the declining "standards" of science in general, just as you have varying standards of aviation around the world REGARDLESS of the same regulatory standards worldwide. Imo your comment is further evidence of your misunderstanding of the article.

[exfocx]

I just don’t understand how you can trust an expert who is paid to give advice to help the pay master spin their yarn.

So I guess that's the paid experts on both sides of the fence, that means the side of the fence you sit on as well? Because one way or another they are both paid for their opinion, however public health experts are nowhere near at risk if the disagree with their paymasters, which is not the case for the private arena.

[Xeptu]

So I guess that's the paid experts on both sides of the fence, that means the side of the fence you sit on as well? Because one way or another they are both paid for their opinion, however public health experts are nowhere near at risk if the disagree with their paymasters, which is not the case for the private arena.

You need look no further than "religion" for the answer to those questions.

[layman]

Just some general comments on peer review (academic, not science)

Tonight I’m in the process of peer reviewing (rejecting!) a paper for one discipline’s annual conference. I don’t know the author(s). They won’t know who reviewed their paper.

Peer-reviewed journals within disciplines are usually rated (category A, B & C in the discipline I’m most familiar with). It has to be much higher quality research to get published in a Cat A.

[Joker89]

So I guess that's the paid experts on both sides of the fence, that means the side of the fence you sit on as well? Because one way or another they are both paid for their opinion, however public health experts are nowhere near at risk if the disagree with their paymasters, which is not the case for the private arena.

I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think public service is more susceptible to corruption. Anyway, your point that you can’t believe anyone holds true. Hence just follow the statistics and formulate ones own opinion on the state of play.

[MrPeabody]

Edit: "A good read on the scientific experts of today! " Yeah nah. It isn't a read of scientific experts today, it's a comment on the declining "standards" of science in general,

THAT WAS MY POINT YOU ********!!!

[currawong]

I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think public service is more susceptible to corruption. Anyway, your point that you can’t believe anyone holds true. Hence just follow the statistics and formulate ones own opinion on the state of play.

I too find myself referring more and more to government websites, source documents and scientific papers.

The difference between those and what appears in the media is disappointing to say the least.

[601]

I am afraid that our CMO let the cat out of the bag.
Queensland health chief officer admits heartless reason for double standard that sees A-listers and sports stars allowed to bypass border closure while grieving families suffer

AFL players and officials allowed into the state to plan for upcoming Grand Final
US actor Tom Hanks and a film crew can also isolate in luxury Gold Coast hotel
State's chief medical officer said entertainment industry brings money to state
'We need every single dollar in our state,' she said in Thursday press conference
Meanwhile, Sarah Caisip applied last month to visit her sick father in Brisbane
Ms Caisip was banned from attending funeral and only granted a private viewing
Have you been affected by border closures? Email [email protected]

[Derfred]

I really feel for the CHO and Premier when it comes to non-quarantined requests to attend a funeral.

If you say NO you will be heartless. But if you say YES, well, we all know how likely “social distancing” is expected to succeed at a funeral.

A single COVID case at a funeral could easily become 50-100 in a day, and next you know it, you have Melbourne in July. There are usually a lot of elderly and vulnerable people at a funeral. So you, as Premier, or CHO, will get to feel like Dan for the next 6 months at least, because you gave her an exemption.

[rcoight]

I really feel for the CHO and Premier when it comes to non-quarantined requests to attend a funeral.

If you say NO you will be heartless. But if you say YES, we’ll, we all know how likely “social distancing” is expected to succeed at a funeral.

A single COVID case at a funeral could easily become 50-100 in a day, and next you know it, you have Melbourne in July. There are usually a lot of elderly and vulnerable people at a funeral. So you, as Premier, or CHO, will get to feel like Dan for the next 6 months at least, because you gave her an exemption.

Yeah. True. Unless, of course, it’s a “very significant“ funeral.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/coronavirus-queensland-funeral-mourners-indigenous-significant/12132614

[Buster Hyman]

I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think public service is more susceptible to corruption. Anyway, your point that you can’t believe anyone holds true. Hence just follow the statistics and formulate ones own opinion on the state of play.
Yep. Been there, seen it, bought the T shirt! :suspect:

[Derfred]

Yeah. True. Unless, of course, it’s a “very significant“ funeral.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-04-09/coronavirus-queensland-funeral-mourners-indigenous-significant/12132614

I guess the “crossing state border from a hot zone without quarantine” factor was not involved in that one.

But your point is well noted. Poor form.

[murder most fowl]

What’s the QLD definition of a hotspot? ACT has a better record than QLD. All because 1 person from NSW flew from Canberra into Brisbane. But you can sail a super yacht from Melbourne for maintenance that could be done in Melbourne, lie on the paperwork about not stopping anywhere and be allowed to stay.

[lucille]

As each day passes, the Sweden model looks like it was the more rational option. Let’s also not forget that Covid is not Ebola. Listening to the media, you’d be forgiven for thinking they were one and the same.

[Ragnor]

Seems Queen P house is falling down around her receiving a flogging in the media today, Queen P wouldn't allow CMO to do a conference without her as thats her spot on the TV but now CMO stands alone at press conference to take the heat, 3 ministers quit. The thing that gets me our PM has allegedly had a phone call to plead to QLD to allow a daughter attend a funeral who comes from ACT (over 60 days without a case) and she reverts to "I'm being bullied" seems she cant handle the heat. Then for the ultimate slap in the face admits to giving the wealthy special treatment Tom hanks brings nothing to Australia really but "because we need the money"! open your border let the business operate to what they were.

QLD GOV is a disgrace to our nation, another family had to get a Go Fund Me page going so they could pay for the quarantine to see their dying son, this is having real effects on peoples lives.Coronavirus Australia: Queensland’s border rules cruel, hypocritical state … unless you’re Tom Hankshttps://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/0f96f9365c783dd6b0a529d2beb5090a?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/0f96f9365c783dd6b0a529d2beb5090a)Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk welcomes the AFL grand final – and more than 400 hangers-on, to Queensland, left. 'Crew' aboard Victorian Mark Simonds' superyacht sail in against the rules, but can stay, top. Meanwhile, the borders are policed, and requests for exemptions to attend funerals denied. Pictures: News Corp/Channel 9/News CorpAh, Queensland.

Outrageously hypocritical one day. Horrendously cruel the next.

How else to explain decisions being made around the NSW border – which, by the way, is open to Queenslanders.

They are welcome in Byron, and in Bondi.

No quarantine required. Just come on down.

But just try being getting into Queensland, henceforth, the callous state.

Ray Hadley has been leading the charge on this, on radio 2GB in Sydney.

Yesterday, he had a man who is 39 years old, and dying from cancer. He lives in Brisbane.

His four children, aged seven to 13, live with their Mum, across the border in NSW.

They want to see their dad before he dies.

Permission denied.

Denied!

Scott Morrison tried to intervene. He is an evangelical Christian, but you don’t have to be, to ask for mercy in this case.

Okay, said Queensland. One of the children can come over the border, and he’ll be driven to his father’s beside to say goodbye for one hour, and then it’s back to NSW with him.

And why?

Nobody can explain it.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/b7f6fc80daf2d9d7805018df0d6ea31d?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/b7f6fc80daf2d9d7805018df0d6ea31d)Traffic at the NSW-Queensland border. Picture: Jason O'BrienCovid is not rampant in NSW. What are the chances of this man’s children having it and spreading it? Minuscule.

Then, today, another case: Sarah is 26 years old, and she was raised in Queensland, but now lives in Canberra.

Her father was dying.

She applied for permission to see him before he died.

She didn’t get her exemption until Friday. It was too late. He died on Wednesday. So she won‘t ever see him again.

Well, at least she could go to the funeral, and be with her family, and pay her respects.

She took her exemption paperwork and went to Brisbane, and straight into hotel quarantine.

From there, she applied for an hour’s release to attend the funeral.

Denied!

But not just denied: the bureaucrat in charge told her she shouldn’t even be in Queensland. Why not?

Because the exemption was to visit her dying father. And he’s dead, so, you know, what are you even doing here?

The inhumanity boggles the mind.

Again, there is essentially no Covid in Canberra. What chance that she’s infected? None. Why can’t she quarantine with her family? Distance herself at the funeral for an hour?
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/946f097aafeab8b5c370cf0a269506b0?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/946f097aafeab8b5c370cf0a269506b0)The Lady Pamela at a Gold Coast marina after millionaire construction magnate Mark Simonds and his family sailed her up from Melbourne for maintenance. They were fined and quarantined, but they can stay. Picture: News CorpPeople are carrying on like the rest of the country has been to Chernobyl. Like everyone else is toxic. But we know that‘s not actually the case.

Which brings us to the shocking hypocrisy.

Tom Hanks flew into Queensland this week. He’s not in hotel quarantine. He came on a private jet. So if you’re famous, in you go.

It also helps to be rich.

We all know the story of the millionaire family from Victoria who sailed up to Queensland on a luxury yacht (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/tycoon-border-breacher-mark-simonds-can-stay-in-qld-if-he-wants-after-completing-quarantine/news-story/567fd37632d74b06b1cc15ee85c6255c), saying the boat needed maintenance.

They hopped off at Eden to get coffee. They weren‘t crew, as they claimed, but a man, his wife, their kids, and a friend, who is Lindsay Fox’s daughter.

They were fined, and forced into quarantine, but they’ve been allowed to stay in Queensland, which was of course their goal.

And why? One of them is a major sponsor of the Geelong Cats.

They want to go to the footy.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e723cab794dad986f949a1d94324a2ad?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/e723cab794dad986f949a1d94324a2ad)The AFL’s Gold Coast hotel quarantine bubble. Picture: SuppliedSpeaking of footy, who are all the people allowed into Queensland, on the guise of being with the AFL (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/coronavirus-qld-premier-under-fire-over-afl-luxury-bubble-as-borders-stay-shut/news-story/3eee6ddbe8f5e835d2f62c16a8e15581)?

We’ve been told that James Sutherland – former boss of Cricket Australia – is there.

How did he get an exemption to travel? He is on the board of the Geelong Football Club. And he’s apparently got “experience with touring sports teams.”

There are a heap of wives, kids, support staff, hangers-on as well.

Ah yes.

If only you were the second cousin of an AFL commissioner’s son, you too could be in Queensland. Beautiful one day, acts of beastly cruelty the next.
Caroline Overington (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Caroline+Overington)