All borders to reopen.

[Gnadenburg]

Indeed. Look at Israel too. Delta is spreading amongst a partially vaccinated society yet hospitalisations are down. Health officials are cautious with measured reintroduction of restrictions.

“We have reached a level of herd immunity in Israel that also provides cross-protection against the delta variant, and for that reason the virus does not spread as quickly, it doesn’t reach the most vulnerable population and it doesn’t cause a lot of hospitalizations,” Yoram Weiss, director of Jerusalem’s Hadassah University Medical Center, said Monday. “It is making all the difference.”

Is COVID now a non-lethal disease with vaccinations and your most vulnerable protected?

“At this point, I still don’t have a single patient,” Weiss said. “Yes, we need to remain vigilant. But we need to understand that this time we are confronting the virus in a different situation than we had before.”

However, back in Australia, the idiocy continues! Health Bureaucrats present like rock stars, many public servants and private sector enjoy working from home or their holiday houses and the number of unprofitable Aussies on the rise; ignorant that their grand kids may be burdened with crippling debt and taxes so they can get a gov handout and go further into debt.

[Cirressna]

Share it with those who need convincing. The vaccines are doing their job just nicely…

Read the comments on the article...unfortunately seems like there's still work to do!

[dr dre]

Read the comments on the article...unfortunately seems like there's still work to do!

Basing any judgement of wider opinion on comments in an article (which can be subject to bots or trolls) is a poor idea but sort the comments by “Most Respected” rather than the default “Newest” and you’ll see the most respected replies all endorse the pro-vaccine position.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Melbourne GP slams QLD CHO (https://www.smh.com.au/national/australia-news-live-covid-19-cases-continue-to-grow-across-nation-four-states-and-territories-in-lockdown-20210630-p585o1.html#p52ewo)

[Chronic Snoozer]

I sometimes wonder if I am talking to 8 year olds with a learning disability . That’ll be the MMR vax.:rolleyes:

”Foxxster’s Law” - the longer an internet argument goes on the greater the chance your fitness to hold a pilot’s licence will be challenged.

[Icarus2001]

So Daniel Andrews and Scott Morrison in heated agreement. Go and see your GP and get their advice about AZ.

[mattyj]

You know that death rates from all Covid variants have gone down all around the western world because doctors have learned how to treat it better..we’re talking about steroids and vitamin D and monoclonals..not to mention the 2 drugs that shall not be mentioned but work very well.

[dr dre]

You know that death rates from all Covid variants have gone down all around the western world because doctors have learned how to treat it better..we’re talking about steroids and vitamin D and monoclonals..not to mention the 2 drugs that shall not be mentioned but work very well.

Please provide links from credible sources to back up those claims.

Not links that say those treatments CAN have an effect on death rates, I want sources that say those treatments are the MAIN or SOLE reason death rates have gone down, not vaccination as you have said.

Looking forward to your answer......

[cloudsurfng]

Where’s the dude who said just eat garlic and you’ll be right?

[SOPS]

You know that death rates from all Covid variants have gone down all around the western world because doctors have learned how to treat it better..we’re talking about steroids and vitamin D and monoclonals..not to mention the 2 drugs that shall not be mentioned but work very well.

Spare me.. not this again. Just go and get vaccinated!!!

[WingNut60]

You know that death rates from all Covid variants have gone down all around the western world because doctors have learned how to treat it better..we’re talking about steroids and vitamin D and monoclonals..not to mention the 2 drugs that shall not be mentioned but work very well.
And also because a large section of the most vulnerable group within the Western populations are now dead.

[ruprecht]

Where’s the dude who said just eat garlic and you’ll be right?
I think he’s now immortal.

[turbantime]

Had a brain dead moron remark how the survivability of this virus is increasing. Wouldn’t accept that it had to do with vaccination rates increasing. Some people literally cannot put two and two together.

[mattyj]

Well deaths in Australia have dropped off a cliff and the vaccination level is 4.5 percent..it’s a stretch to claim that is the reason

[WingNut60]

Well deaths in Australia have dropped off a cliff and the vaccination level is 4.5 percent..it’s a stretch to claim that is the reason
Well many of the first lot, the ones with a high fatality rate, were in aged care.
Whereas most of the current crop of infectees seem to be regular gym enthusiasts so maybe it's that.............or the steroids.

[mattyj]

it’s pretty easy to claim that the worldwide death rate was well on the decline before the vaccination rate picked up..except maybe Israel and the UK..most countries in OurWorldInData show a marked decline in deaths by mid March at which point most countries in the graph hadn’t passed 20% with only one dose:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/737x1231/9a29cc30_ac08_4bdf_8f3a_98cf6c7efa23_1c35cf7ff33bcf62a03d92b 6d176f09ab9d902b5.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/742x1145/420aace5_593c_4e78_931e_e30c410f2987_5f2c06727672248769e2269 90562b5a9469613ce.jpeg

[dr dre]

it’s pretty easy to claim that the worldwide death rate was well on the decline before the vaccination rate picked up..except maybe Israel and the UK..most countries in OurWorldInData show a marked decline in deaths by mid March at which point most countries in the graph hadn’t passed 20% with only one dose:


Most of those nations were in lockdown until mid March, plus the natural curve of a viral illness will decrease post the middle of winter.

The first dose vaccinations at 10-20% of the population were prioritised for the most vulnerable groups, the elderly. The percentage of over 65s in those nations is about 15-20%, so a big majority of the vulnerable in those nations would have gotten a first dose by mid March, so would've had a good level of protection and decreased the death rate.

But the main point is look at a comparison between vaccinated and unvaccinated in the same demographics at the same time. And there's no debate:

Almost All U.S. COVID-19 Deaths Now in the Unvaccinated (https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210629/almost-all-us-covid-19-deaths-now-in-the-unvaccinated)

[SOPS]

It has just been stated that since this began.. there have been 51000 people through HQ in WA alone. Some have been through HQ as many as 8 times!!! This rubbish has to stop. You come in, you stay in. You leave now, you don’t come back. And that included ‘ sports people’ and such.

[KRviator]

How many of those are interstate travellers though, as opposed to international? Particularly as McGoose is quite fond of his hard - sorry, "Controlled interstate" - border that requires Australian citizens to quarantine just to go see their grandparents because they happen to live in the same state as someone who sneezed a thousand miles away...

But I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. You leave - you stay the phuck gone. You come in, you ain't going back out unless you refer to part 1.

There's more people wanting to come home now than there were at the start of the pandemic! WTF is up with that?!?

[SOPS]

To be clear.. these are International arrivals. Some people have been in and out 8 times. It’s BS.

[Torukmacto]

International arrivals won’t stop , just get vaccinated and get on with it . This is part of life now .

[morno]

To be clear.. these are International arrivals. Some people have been in and out 8 times. It’s BS.

Because it’s complete and utter bull**** that they’re closed to start with.

Ohh that and the fact that maybe some people might have very legitimate reasons, ie. work.

Not everyone believes in a North Korean fortress style border.

[morno]

I sometimes wonder if I am talking to 8 year olds with a learning disability .

I think I have stated many many times that it cannot be done. It is up to you to provide the means of implementing and more importantly police the measures that YOU want to put in place.

as for being an expert. Well I have had that line before. About that charlatan, sorry demographer. You may want to refer to my post just above regarding that. The one with the link to the news article…

as for your role as a pilot. You have proven a complete lack of rationality, critical thinking and common sense.

I would think they are necessary requirements for most jobs that have people’s lives in their hands.

I give up, there’s no point arguing with a 7 year old.

And honestly, if you think flying is that hard that I need to be a psychologist and hold a doctorate, you’ve got serious issues buddy. It’s not that fecking hard. :rolleyes:

[ruprecht]

International arrivals won’t stop , just get vaccinated and get on with it . This is part of life now .

Yup, what a shambles this is turning into. Scomo won’t provide a roadmap to recovery because then there is no reason to keep the LNP in power. So it’ll be “keeping you safe” and “envy of the world” until the election is called.

[aviation_enthus]

It has just been stated that since this began.. there have been 51000 people through HQ in WA alone. Some have been through HQ as many as 8 times!!! This rubbish has to stop. You come in, you stay in. You leave now, you don’t come back. And that included ‘ sports people’ and such.

So by that logic the PM should stay out then? What about the various government ministers that need to travel?

What about Australians that live overseas and need to come home to deal with various family issues? They can’t go back overseas?

What about the various business owners in Australia that need to travel to keep their businesses running?

What about Australians that have family overseas they need to see?

I could go on and on, but I’m sure you get the point. The border CAN NEVER be closed. No country on earth functions that way. By your logic, all airlines should stop flying to Australia as well, good luck getting any of that Pfizer vaccine that’s so important now!

Australian citizens have a right to access their own country. It’s up to the government to create a safe and effective way for that to happen during a pandemic. Just shouting “shut the border!” is not safe and effective.

Do you get that point? ITS UP TO THE GOVERNMENT to create an effective quarantine system. To allow citizens to move around so the country continues to function.

If there actually was a safe and effective quarantine system (NOT hotel quarantine), that was user pays, with an associated cap on numbers, plus all the issues with international air travel at the moment, plus the risk of getting COVID (cause most Aussies aren’t vaccinated) and people STILL want to travel with all that hassle and risk, who are you to say “no”??

What happened to our liberal democracy? What happened to some level of personal responsibility when presented with the associated risks?

This is not something that will go away this year or probably the next, the influenza continued to spike every year well into the mid 1920’s after the original outbreak in 1919. Shutting the country off from the world for multiple years is not a suitable response.

[Potsie Weber]

About time we incentivised vaccines in this country. There is enough vaccine to to cover the most at risk and at risk of causing breakouts.

You cannot enter this country unless you are fully vaccinated
You cannot leave this country until you are fully vaccinated
You can travel freely within this country if you are fully vaccinated. You are not subject to state border restrictions or lockdowns.
You can travel freely overseas to low risk countries from 31 Oct if you are fully vaccinated with quarantine on return for 1 test and then no quarantine but a follow up test in 7 days
You can travel freely to low risk countries from 1Dec if you are fully vaccinated with no quarantine but a test on return.
If you work in front line health, borders, emergency, international freight movements etc you get paid double time every single time you go to work for the next 6mths if you are fully vaccinated and you will receive a tax credit for the next 3yrs for your service to the greater good of the country.

Just watch how many would suddenly think the minimal risk of AZ side effects is acceptable when freedom and money comes into it.

All it needs is a plan!

[Dannyboy39]

I'm intrigued by what is going on in Australia right now, looking from afar in the UK. I still haven't cancelled my hotels in late Nov / early Dec in Brisbane and Adelaide for the Ashes, although I'm resigned to the fact I am locked out of Aussie for a long time. Did I see somewhere that there is talk of border closures until potentially 2023? Its insanity.

Are everyday Aussies really putting up with this never ending cycle of scare tactics, lockdown and political game playing? I thought there was a plan? I deeply feel for my fellow Australian friends and aviation comrades who are having to put with this nonsense day after day.

Were they putting up with it when Scotty from Marketing was walking around freely in the UK, tracing his family tree and mingling with political mates at the G7? At the same time saying how dangerous the UK is right now.*

*Newsflash - it isn't. The delta variant of course is a more infectious and possibly deadlier variant, but each of the vaccines are strongly effective against it and now over 80% of the adult population has had one dose and as of now all of the priority groups would've had their second. Life has almost returned to normal domestically and in fact, in reality, with Euro 2020 ongoing, it already has. In 18 days time, in theory, all restrictions will have been removed in the UK although I'm dubious as to what might happen later in the year. Right now there are around 20,000++ cases a day on average, but only around 200 a day going in hospital and on average around a dozen a day are dying. On a typical day probably around 1,300 people die every day in the UK. Perspective - something a lot of governments don't seem to have.

Being double vaccinated, I couldn't be any more protected apart from the exposure from widespread community transmission. But the vaccines are so miraculous, in over 90% of cases prevent you getting severe disease, even more so if you're under 50 where the risk really was significantly reduced before vaccines. Eventually, people who are fully vaccinated will be able to travel to amber countries without a return quarantine and most of Europe are now doing this from today with their new travel pass.

For what it's worth, I am 33 years old and had the AZ vaccine in around late March. I was groggy for 24 hours first time like most but absolutely fine - like 100,000s of others in my age bracket who had early access for whatever reason. Back at the time when there were question marks over this vaccine, there was 1.1 case in 100,000 of severe reaction which was slightly larger than the severe Covid risk for this cohort and as such the decision was made by UK JCVI, the regulator. Not for scare tactics, but a strategic risked based decision.

The world really is full of inconsistencies at the moment... it does irk me how science differs depending on your nationality, wallet size or celebrity status.

[Lead Balloon]

So by that logic the PM should stay out then? What about the various government ministers that need to travel?Yep. Either don't go, or stay out if you do. And it's by their own logic.

Define "need". Who's going to die if pollies don't travel overseas? Who's going to declare war on us or stop sending us Christmas Cards?

Each of those trips involves dozens of hangers-on who each pose a 'quarantine' hotel leak risk, and each of those leaks has cost and continues to cost the country billions.
What about Australians that live overseas and need to come home to deal with various family issues? They can’t go back overseas?Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't come home or can't go back overseas unless they stay there until the pandemic is under control?
What about the various business owners in Australia that need to travel to keep their businesses running?Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't travel?What about Australians that have family overseas they need to see?Define "need". Who's going to die if they don't "see" the overseas family?

There are inumerable examples of people who "need" to travel within Australia but are prohibited from doing so. Lives and businesses are being destroyed here, and people are being cut off from family here, due to the restrictions on travel within Australia, and those restrictions have been triggered by outbreaks caused by infections from overseas travel!

And there are thousands of travellers let in from overseas who aren't Australians and aren't visiting dying relatives!

It's about the rank hypocrisy.

Much of this could have been avoided if the Commonwealth had stepped up to its responsibilities and started building proper quarantine facilities over a year ago. But, just as Scotty from Marketing doesn't hold a hose, he doesn't lay bricks.

[blubak]

It has just been stated that since this began.. there have been 51000 people through HQ in WA alone. Some have been through HQ as many as 8 times!!! This rubbish has to stop. You come in, you stay in. You leave now, you don’t come back. And that included ‘ sports people’ and such.
Thats a disgrace & needs to be stopped as you say.
You get 1 chance & 1 chance only.
This situation is controlled by federal govt?

[Lead Balloon]

Yes. The Federal government decides who comes here, and the circumstances in which they come.

[hawkerxp]

Thats a disgrace & needs to be stopped as you say.
You get 1 chance & 1 chance only.
This situation is controlled by federal govt?

So you’ll pay my mortgage when I can’t travel
overseas for work. Or better still, can you please point me to a job based here I can take… maybe I’ll call up some local airlines and offer to work at pennies on the dollar and ruin it for local crew (that’s sarcasm). Some. People have a legitimate reason to travel overseas multiple times.

[Lead Balloon]

And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

[Torukmacto]

The country will reopen , up to you to be vaccinated or not when living with covid .

[Gnadenburg]

And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

What about those who have and will lose their livelihoods due to an extended border closure in Australia?

Quarantine was bungled, vaccination rollout a shambles and lockdowns debatable. I really can't blame Australians travelling overseas to make a living. Seems unfashionable to be a profitable Aussie these days.

[Lead Balloon]

I agree.

My point is that the 'fallout' from the bungled quarantine arrangements and vaccine rollout should be equitably shared. But it seems that some people are more equal than others.

[Chronic Snoozer]

And what about the people who can't pay their mortgage because their business in Australia has died, due to lockdowns caused by overseas travel by others?

It’s not the porous border policy that is causing this. They’ve had 15 months to sort this out by throwing practically unlimited resources at it and the net result is arguments about traveller quotas and a plan to build quarantine centres God only knows when. What about the complete lack of common sense that sees limo drivers (of international flight crew FFS) not testing or masking up (allegedly), receptionists working outside a COVID ward unvaccinated, the sub-standard information flow about which vaccines are available and to whom slowing the entire roll out down, not to mention unmasked, multi-jobbing hotel ‘security’ guards and mixing domestic and international travellers at quarantine hotels?

If someone wants to go through hotel quarantine 8 times, that is their business, however that’s 7 people that could have returned from overseas - that is an issue.

[Lead Balloon]

I agree.

But I don't agree that tolerating numerous stupid things is a justification for continuing to tolerate all of those stupid things.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

About time we incentivised vaccines in this country. There is enough vaccine to to cover the most at risk and at risk of causing breakouts.

You cannot enter this country unless you are fully vaccinated
You cannot leave this country until you are fully vaccinated
You can travel freely within this country if you are fully vaccinated. You are not subject to state border restrictions or lockdowns.
You can travel freely overseas to low risk countries from 31 Oct if you are fully vaccinated with quarantine on return for 1 test and then no quarantine but a follow up test in 7 days
You can travel freely to low risk countries from 1Dec if you are fully vaccinated with no quarantine but a test on return.
If you work in front line health, borders, emergency, international freight movements etc you get paid double time every single time you go to work for the next 6mths if you are fully vaccinated and you will receive a tax credit for the next 3yrs for your service to the greater good of the country.

Just watch how many would suddenly think the minimal risk of AZ side effects is acceptable when freedom and money comes into it.

All it needs is a plan!
So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

[Keg]

So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.

[Fonz121]

So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

The same way you stop people coming on fake documents of any kind I’d suggest. I can’t see it being an issue.

[Potsie Weber]

As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.

Doesn’t seem much of an improvement. We are going further backwards with 50% caps for the rest of this year and “hope we are living in the second phase next year”. The second phase means unvaccinated caps back to today’s level, possible increase in vaccinated travel but still existing quarantine for unvaxxed and maybe 7 day home quarantine for vaxxed. That’s hardly opening up.

[jrfsp]

Doesn’t seem much of an improvement. We are going further backwards with 50% caps for the rest of this year and “hope we are living in the second phase next year”. The second phase means unvaccinated caps back to today’s level, possible increase in vaccinated travel but still existing quarantine for unvaxxed and maybe 7 day home quarantine for vaxxed. That’s hardly opening up.

Even with home quarantine - its still not fun and really only those who need to travel or those taking extended leave will be going, no-one will be going to Bali for a week only to return to a week or two of home quarantine.

[neville_nobody]

As long as Covid doesn’t morph into something that can beat the vaccines, borders will be more or less completely open by this time next year. Wouldn’t surprise me if we’re allowing those vaccinated to travel to certain countries with minimal iso on return by February or March.

Why do you believe that? I just can't see the impetus for anyone in government to do anything. The Feds are hamstrung by the States and the States are basically running their own countries now so why will they surrender that? There is no constitutional pressure, and the states can just keep on waivering any sort of rule of law by declaring emergencies. What's the circuit breaker to end this?

[Foxxster]

Even with home quarantine - its still not fun and really only those who need to travel or those taking extended leave will be going, no-one will be going to Bali for a week only to return to a week or two of home quarantine.

or there will be massive non compliance. Can you really see the 20 and 30 somethings actually complying completely with a weeks home detention. Uni students…etc…


Once we reach around 70% fully vaccinated, there should be NO measures like social distancing, QR codes, masks, lockdowns or ANY quarantine period for returning international travellers. That’s the whole point of a MASS vaccination program. Anything else and there will be bloody riots and I’ll be up the front.

as for fake certificates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/16/fake-covid-vaccine-and-test-certificate-market-is-growing-researchers-say


and fake vaccines

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/antibiotic-jabbed-instead-of-covid-19-vaccine-at-fake-centres-in-kolkata/article34979344.ece

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3134124/do-fake-covid-19-vaccine-arrests-china-herald-global-crime-wave

[Troo believer]

or there will be massive non compliance. Can you really see the 20 and 30 somethings actually complying completely with a weeks home detention. Uni students…etc…


Once we reach around 70% fully vaccinated, there should be NO measures like social distancing, QR codes, masks, lockdowns or ANY quarantine period for returning international travellers. That’s the whole point of a MASS vaccination program. Anything else and there will be bloody riots and I’ll be up the front.

as for fake certificates.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/16/fake-covid-vaccine-and-test-certificate-market-is-growing-researchers-say


and fake vaccines

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/antibiotic-jabbed-instead-of-covid-19-vaccine-at-fake-centres-in-kolkata/article34979344.ece

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3134124/do-fake-covid-19-vaccine-arrests-china-herald-global-crime-wave

Something positive and you talk it down with negatives that are just crap. Digital certificate embedded in your passport. Problem solved. Facial recognition scan. Problem solved. Government encrypted app. Problem solved.

[Torukmacto]

Get enough vaccinated and no need for health passports , facial recognition , hotel quarantine, home quarantine , daily updates on coronavirus or lockdowns and border control .
It gets called a common virus and we forget about it .

[Foxxster]

Something positive and you talk it down with negatives that are just crap. Digital certificate embedded in your passport. Problem solved. Facial recognition scan. Problem solved. Government encrypted app. Problem solved.


you should get onto the FBI and international customs departments. I’m sure they will value your input and you easily, cough cough implemented ideas. After all seeing as they are so easy, they have already been implemented world wide so there are actually no fake certificates now and nobody using them and getting caught.

and as I said, once we get to around 70% vaccinated there should be NO NEED FOR ANY MEASURES.

[ScepticalOptomist]

So how do you stop people coming to Australia with fake Vaccinnation certificates ? Unlikely for borders to open before 2025.

I believe you have missed the point completely.

[SOPS]

So this magic 30000 number of Australians wanting to get home has popped again today.

The new international arrival cap is 3035 people a week. So in around 10 weeks, all Australians that want, should be home, right?

[Lead Balloon]

You'd like to think so, but nah.

Most of the 30,000 are nobodies like us.

Most of the 3,035 will, in contrast, be special people. Some are going for their Platinum Frequent Quarantiner membership.

[Keg]

Why do you believe that? I just can't see the impetus for anyone in government to do anything. The Feds are hamstrung by the States and the States are basically running their own countries now so why will they surrender that? There is no constitutional pressure, and the states can just keep on waivering any sort of rule of law by declaring emergencies. What's the circuit breaker to end this?

The circuit breaker will be significantly decreased sickness and hospitalisation overseas from Delta Covid. The circuit breaker will be a population that is 80%+ vaccinated by Christmas this year demanding to know why they can’t travel without onerous restrictions that the rest of the world doesn’t have to deal with. The Australian public have been pretty resilient and patient waiting for the ‘way out’ (vaccines). Once that arrives the patience will start to dissipate as quickly as the virus.

[aviation_enthus]

So this magic 30000 number of Australians wanting to get home has popped again today.

The new international arrival cap is 3035 people a week. So in around 10 weeks, all Australians that want, should be home, right?

Nope!! Congrats on figuring out the basic maths, but what you keep missing is the “30,000” is not static.

Pre-COVID there was upto 1 Million Aussies living and working overseas. Combine that with the fact 1/3rd of Australians were born overseas, means there’s a never ending amount of people with a need to get back.

I’m overseas and not included in that 30,000 along with dozens of other Aussies I know. So what happens later this year or early next when we all decide to come back?

(For any reason by the way, why people travel is none of your business to be honest! I’m an Aussie citizen, access to my own country eventually would be nice “mate”)

[Lead Balloon]

What is the continuous period (up until now) you've been stuck overseas, aviation enthus?

[aviation_enthus]

What is the continuous period (up until now) you've been stuck overseas, aviation enthus?

Define “stuck”. I’m lucky to still have a job, a visa and a house to live in. Over the past 18 months I’ve encountered plenty of people that had massive problems returning home due to the border restrictions.

Haven’t visited Australia on holidays since mid 2019. Given the current issues around travel and the border, I don’t expect to visit again until mid next year. So that’ll be about 3 years by then. That’s longer than normal, as an expat you anticipate being able to head home once a year.

Currently working overseas, but like many it’s not a permanent decision, we will come back. Australia is our country. Our home.

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

[ozbiggles]

Define “stuck”. I’m lucky to still have a job, a visa and a house to live in. Over the past 18 months I’ve encountered plenty of people that had massive problems returning home due to the border restrictions.

Haven’t visited Australia on holidays since mid 2019. Given the current issues around travel and the border, I don’t expect to visit again until mid next year. So that’ll be about 3 years by then. That’s longer than normal, as an expat you anticipate being able to head home once a year.

Currently working overseas, but like many it’s not a permanent decision, we will come back. Australia is our country. Our home.

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

[aviation_enthus]

I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

No I’m sure they aren’t. And I’m also glad that elderly relatives have largely been saved back home.

However….

You misunderstood why they are laughing. It’s the lack of care and respect for their own citizens both inside and outside of Australia. COVID can be tackled will still showing some care for you own citizens….

- only country ON EARTH to threaten jail time for citizens trying to come home

- look at the fiasco around Christmas/NYE when Victorians were locked out of returning to their own homes

- the multiple times QLD has denied access for people from NSW to access hospitals in SEQLD

That’s just a few off the top of my head that regularly come up in conversation.

Now Australia is an island. So a strategy that plays to that strength is great. By all means have quarantine on arrival, even user pays after the first few months.

But the way Australian citizens are treated is what they’re laughing at mate. What are we loosing in the name of “health advice”…??

[GA F15]

I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

What annoys me is the way the Aussies look at death rates and claim victory over the Poms like it’s the ashes!
Yes they did well by locking down hard and fast, but they never seem to acknowledge the luck that geography and population density differences provided. Apples and Oranges.

[Jetsbest]

What annoys me is the way the Aussies look at death rates and claim victory over the Poms like it’s the ashes!

It may appear that way but remember, all politics is ‘local’. I can’t comment for all Aussies… (as ‘average’ as I am) but I don’t think most gloat in that way.

Media & politicians are all pandering to the click-bait / re-election motivators; sad & frustrating to many.🙄

[Lead Balloon]

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!That's my observation, too.

One of the reasons those Aussies and their families and friends are so pissed off is that they are slowly getting a better insight into how many non-Aussies have been getting special treatment and permitted to travel back and forward to Australia. The rich and 'important'. Orwell's more equal animals.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Are politicians risk adverse and keeping us all " safe " or politically and electorially selfish unwilling to make the call that is obvious to most?

What really is the point of the last 18 months if there is no exit strategy or drive to leave this farce behind, move on and learn to live with this disease like we do with all others?

Remember, COVID19 is a health affliction as well as a major industry with many hangers on with a vested interest in the current rudderless situation.

This embarresment is certainly nothing to be proud of. Smilling politicians and bureaucrats milking it for all its worth whilst the country slowly implodes.

They are simply Scum.

MCD

[WingNut60]

..........The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

Careful that you're not just transposing your personal view as that of the rest of the world.
I have not had any of my overseas friends, expatriate or otherwise, express the contempt that you seem to think is universal.

[minigundiplomat]

Probably 99% of the Aussies I’ve spoken to in the last 18 months are pissed off about the way they’ve been treated by their own country. Plus it’s ironic that Australia thinks it’s the “envy of the world” with their pandemic management. I can tell you with a straight face that’s a load of BS. The rest of the world is laughing at us!!

my experience also

[ChrisJ800]

I was working overseas in Malaysia for 2 years but made the decision in March 2020 not to stay there during a pandemic so came home in the 2nd week of March just before borders were shut and with a cheap $400 airfare. Admittedly at the time I thought I would be able to return after 1 or 2 months but I do not regret my decision as would much rather ride out a pandemic here. Friends of mine in Asia have got seriously ill from catching Covid possibly left with long term health issues.

Many ozzies stuck overseas can return if they have the money for a First or Biz class airfare and I know people who have done this and then also spent money on hotel accommodation. And of course if you have a boat or private plane you can get back fairly easily. Most boat entry ports other than Thursday Island are operating normally to process international arrivals. So its unfortunately often economic reasons why ozzies are still stuck overseas.

ScoMo has his Shark One A330 to fly around in and luxurious home quarantine. For most of the rest of us, saving up for a first class airfare would be the practical way to get home at the moment.

[ManillaChillaDilla]

Hotel quarantine failure after failure.

Vacine rollout failure after failure.

State governance failure after failure.

Why push on with an approach that is obviously unstable and has been since the IAF?

Unjfortunately we are all the passengers on this one way flight.

MCD

[Clare Prop]

So this magic 30000 number of Australians wanting to get home has popped again today.

The new international arrival cap is 3035 people a week. So in around 10 weeks, all Australians that want, should be home, right?

Not so, because so many are also leaving and coming back. Plus only 39% of arrivals are Australians. So if they could prioritise them a 50% cut would make no difference.

Overseas Travel Statistics, Provisional, May 2021 | Australian Bureau of Statistics (abs.gov.au) (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/overseas-travel-statistics-provisional/may-2021)

[White Knight]

I'd suggest to you the relatives of the 128, 000 dead UK citizens from Covid aren't laughing....

The 128,000 who died within 28 days of receiving a positive covid test you mean? Death could have been from many other causes but they were all logged as covid deaths (even some road accident victims in there). Bear in mind too that Australia is a Cul-de-Sac in the worldwide scheme with a very low population density whereas UK is a major crossroad with a far denser and more elderly population.

The fact that your pollies are STILL locking down more than fifteen months after the Pandemic was declared is, quite frankly, laughable...

[Sue Ridgepipe]

I do not regret my decision as would much rather ride out a pandemic here
I'm actually the opposite of this - I'm glad I decided not to return as I'm fortunate to be in a place where life is relatively normal, we haven't had any lockdowns, new case numbers are very low, I've recieved both doses of my preferred vaccine and I'm still lucky enough to have a job and being paid. Sure the money is less than what I was getting when flying a full roster, but it's more than enough to survive on and still put some away.

IMHO the way the Australian politicians (especially state premiers) have been carrying on during this pandemic is an absolute disgrace, and the on-again-off-again lockdowns would be enough to drive you mad, so I'm more than happy not to have to put up with that. The same with panic buying in the supermarkets and people abusing health officials at vaccination centres.

Of course it's still home, and it's frustrating not to be able to come and go freely, but I made the choice not to return for a visit whilst they still have the quarantine requirements in place for overseas arrivals. It'll probably be next year at the earliest before that will be an option, which means it will have been over 2 years between visits for me, but I know others who have been happy to go home and serve the quarantine time. Good for them, that's their choice. I still think I'm lucky to be in the position I'm in as I know there are many trying to return but for various reasons they cannot, also there are many expats that have lost jobs and some will more than likely never fly again. It's a mad world at the moment and I'm happy to ride things out where I am, but I do miss home.

[Qwark]

Not so, because so many are also leaving and coming back. Plus only 39% of arrivals are Australians. So if they could prioritise them a 50% cut would make no difference.

Overseas Travel Statistics, Provisional, May 2021 | Australian Bureau of Statistics (abs.gov.au) (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/overseas-travel-statistics-provisional/may-2021)

Did you even read the statistics? 45% of arrivals are from New Zealand. I seem to remember Australia has a travel bubble established so maybe they are not using the quarantine system.

So how about we cut out the NZ arrivals and keep the returning aussies at the existing level. That is almost a 50% reduction. Same stats can be used for both sides of an argument. Our politicians are a disgrace in this country!

[mattyj]

There is a certain breed of human (I use human with qualifiers) that are revelling in this crisis..these people come to the fore whenever something like this happens..wartime, pandemics, floods, earthquakes etc etc.

They are the minimum wage earning, or bureaucratic desk holding, utility belt wearing, clipboard holding, fluro vest wearing, 2 way radio carriers. This is their time, this was what they were born to do, they’re f$&king loving it..

They have the authority to tell you to pull up your mask!, keep your distance!, wash your hands!, get your vaccine!, show your vaccination cert!, scan your app!…

they sigh, it’s so frustrating, why can’t people just fall into line, “we’re just doing our jobs.”

Don’t believe they’re gonna let this opportunity go in a hurry!

if ever

[Chronic Snoozer]

There is a certain breed of human (I use human with qualifiers) that are revelling in this crisis..these people come to the fore whenever something like this happens..wartime, pandemics, floods, earthquakes etc etc.

They are the minimum wage earning, or bureaucratic desk holding, utility belt wearing, clipboard holding, fluro vest wearing, 2 way radio carriers. This is their time, this was what they were born to do, they’re f$&king loving it..

They have the authority to tell you to pull up your mask!, keep your distance!, wash your hands!, get your vaccine!, show your vaccination cert!, scan your app!…

they sigh, it’s so frustrating, why can’t people just fall into line, they’re just doing their jobs.

Don’t believe they’re gonna let this opportunity go in a hurry!

if ever

Then there is this breed of human......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/bowral-organic-store-owners-arrested-over-alleged-covid-breaches/100262790

[Chronic Snoozer]

Did you even read the statistics? 45% of arrivals are from New Zealand. I seem to remember Australia has a travel bubble established so maybe they are not using the quarantine system.

So how about we cut out the NZ arrivals and keep the returning aussies at the existing level. That is almost a 50% reduction. Same stats can be used for both sides of an argument. Our politicians are a disgrace in this country!

Why cut arrivals that don't use the quarantine system? As long as the travel bubble is established, it is 'quarantine-free' travel and unlikely to be a burden on states.

[Lead Balloon]

Then there is this breed of human......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-02/bowral-organic-store-owners-arrested-over-alleged-covid-breaches/100262790
And there is the special breed of policeman with his nose hanging out of his facemask while man-handling someone for not wearing mask.

I suppose the policeman could be one of those 'mouth breathers'...

[Chronic Snoozer]

And there is the special breed of policeman with his nose hanging out of his facemask while man-handling someone for not wearing mask.

I suppose the policeman could be one of those 'mouth breathers'...

Yes, I see what you mean. Continue the arrest of someone who can't follow simple rules or constantly fiddle with the mask not designed for physical exertion? This is the policeman's lot.

[Lead Balloon]

The point of arresting the woman was, surely, that she may be a carrier of Covid 19 and spreading it to patrons by not wearing a mask, in breach of the law? What, then, is the point of a policeman getting up close and personal with the women, without proper PPE?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Here is the 4 stage plan that Scomo announced yesterday -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSXIetP5iak

[Servo]

Here is the 4 stage plan that Scomo announced yesterday -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSXIetP5iak

Hahahahahahaha. Absolutely perfect and very fitting.

[Chronic Snoozer]

The point of arresting the woman was, surely, that she may be a carrier of Covid 19 and spreading it to patrons by not wearing a mask, in breach of the law? What, then, is the point of a policeman getting up close and personal with the women, without proper PPE?

I agree.

But I don't agree that tolerating numerous stupid things is a justification for continuing to tolerate all of those stupid things.
.......................

[Lead Balloon]

If the policemen who arrested 'Sister Mary Jane Rainforest I Don't Wear Masks' from Bowral all contracted the Delta strain of Covid 19, would we all be aghast and wondering how that could possibly happen?

Why are so many things done in such a half-arsed way in this country?

I don't really blame the individual policemen. I blame their leadership. Sending them in, without proper PPE, to arrest someone for not wearing a mask mandated for the purposes of reducing the spread of a highly infectious strain of Covid 19 is like sending them without weapons to a reported armed hold-up.

[Clare Prop]

Did you even read the statistics? 45% of arrivals are from New Zealand. I seem to remember Australia has a travel bubble established so maybe they are not using the quarantine system.

So how about we cut out the NZ arrivals and keep the returning aussies at the existing level. That is almost a 50% reduction. Same stats can be used for both sides of an argument. Our politicians are a disgrace in this country!
Kiwis don't take up quarantine spaces.

[Chronic Snoozer]

If the policemen who arrested 'Sister Mary Jane Rainforest I Don't Wear Masks' from Bowral all contracted the Delta strain of Covid 19, would we all be aghast and wondering how that could be possibly happen?

Why are so many things done in such a half-arsed way in this country?

I don't really blame the individual policemen. I blame their leadership. Sending them in, without proper PPE, to arrest someone for not wearing a mask mandated for the purposes of reducing the spread of a highly infectious strain of Covid 19 is like sending them without weapons to a reported armed hold-up.

Australia - the half-arsed country. Apt.

[Keg]

The point of arresting the woman was, surely, that she may be a carrier of Covid 19 and spreading it to patrons by not wearing a mask, in breach of the law? What, then, is the point of a policeman getting up close and personal with the women, without proper PPE?

Ever crossed your mind that he was wearing it correctly but after the female started resisting arrest that the PPE then slipped out of place?

I don’t envy the coppers in this situation and given they’d already spent more than an hour trying to reason with them I reckon they showed remarkable restraint. Yes, some coppers have been WAY over the top (I’m looking at you Victoria and WA in particular) but to suggest the copper in this specific circumstance was doing the wrong thing is a bit tough.

[Lead Balloon]

That was the first thing I thought of, Keg.

And that is the first risk that anyone, and his or her supervisor, doing a proper risk assessment of the task should have thought of, too.

That's why I keep using the word "proper" in front of PPE. In this case, a paper mask that slips off at the first wiggle of a nose and can't be repositioned because both the officer's hands are occupied arresting someone is not "proper" PPE.

[mattyj]

Every copper from every totalitarian nightmare government who was beating someone who was standing up for their civil liberties was “only doing their job”

..that defence didn’t work at Nuremberg..eventually when the facts come out there should be some people made a public example of.

[Lead Balloon]

I don't think we need to go quite to that extreme to foresee that most people who have a fundamental objection to wearing facemasks - whether the objection is based on religion, essential oils, crystals, voices in their head or a belief that Covid-19 is a means by which to implement some form of world government - is going to resist and ignore requests from the constabulary to wear a facemask.

After that, it's not that hard to foresee that the constabulary are either going to have to arrest or retreat. Being appropriately prepared for an arrest seems like a pretty obvious planning step, including the use of proper PPE, for the constabulary in the circumstances.

[601]

I don't think we need to go quite to that extreme to foresee that most people who have a fundamental objection to wearing facemasks - whether the objection is based on religion, essential oils, crystals, voices in their head or a belief that Covid-19 is a means by which to implement some form of world government - is going to resist and ignore requests from the constabulary to wear a facemask.

After that, it's not that hard to foresee that the constabulary are either going to have to arrest or retreat. Being appropriately prepared for an arrest seems like a pretty obvious planning step, including the use of proper PPE, for the constabulary in the circumstances.

So next time I become SLF, I shall expect the cabin crew to be in full PPE.

[WingNut60]

...................Yes, some coppers have been WAY over the top (I’m looking at you Victoria and WA in particular) ..................

Really? Which particular incident are you referring to in W.A.?

[Keg]

Admittedly most were in Victoria. Use of the riot squad in Victoria markets and in other places around Melbourne. Deciding that teaching your daughter to drive a car isn’t ‘educational purposes’ and fining them for being more than 5km from home. Arresting a pregnant woman (and cuffing her) in her own home for a facebook post. Telling another pregnant woman she couldn’t sit down to rest on a park bench when out for a walk. Telling a law professor with cerebral palsy to ‘move on’ when she was resting during a walk with her 70 year old mum.

Fining people who are running on their own but don’t happen to be wearing a mask in WA? WA police accessing contact tracing information despite the government saying they wouldn’t? There were other similar examples to do with the whole exercise thing either for mask wearing, spending too long out of home or too far away from home.

[dr dre]

Arresting a pregnant woman (and cuffing her) in her own home for a facebook post.

C’mon that wasn’t just for a mere “Facebook post”, she (allegedly, it’s still in the courts) was trying to organise a “freedom rally” and promote it on social media, a mass gathering at the peak of that outbreak in which every man, woman, child and dog in Victoria knew was clearly illegal.

I watched the video of the arrest, the arresting police were gentle, calm, didn’t do anything that would have put her or her child at risk.

But being pregnant is never an excuse to break the law. Seeing she (allegedly) chose to break the law whilst pregnant I’d be questioning her fitness to be a parent.

[dr dre]

Fining people who are running on their own but don’t happen to be wearing a mask in WA?......There were other similar examples to do with the whole exercise thing either for mask wearing, spending too long out of home or too far away from home.

Nope, there’s a mask exemption for performing vigorous exercise so you wouldn’t be fined for running without one.

The only stories of fines (and there haven’t been many) issued in WA for not wearing masks have been those who explicitly refused to do (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/woman-charged-for-twice-refusing-to-wear-a-face-mask-in-perth-cbd-20210429-p57ndc.html) so when requested by police.

Maybe NSW needs to get a bit more serious with their mask wearing:

Hundreds seen flouting Sydney lockdown rules, with July 9 lift under threat (https://www.9news.com.au/national/nearly-80-fines-handed-down-in-last-down-for-covid-breaches-in-nsw/efa7a22b-3ce6-48bc-8650-7079af9e039b)

[aviation_enthus]

C’mon that wasn’t just for a mere “Facebook post”, she (allegedly, it’s still in the courts) was trying to organise a “freedom rally” and promote it on social media, a mass gathering at the peak of that outbreak in which every man, woman, child and dog in Victoria knew was clearly illegal.
.

I love reading these sorts of posts, it’s an interesting argument on whether any sort of protest should even be illegal to start with.

I’m going to play devils advocate.

Protesting against the government should never be illegal. Doesn’t matter what level of public health “risk” is justified to classify them illegal, removing the right to protest limits the function of our democracy. You only have to look at the double standards applied in Victoria to see the risks in this approach:

- BLM protest were ok
- another protest was also allowed (the subject suited the government) can’t remember what it was about.

- Any “freedom/anti lockdown” protests were met with a VERY heavy police response in return.

My main point with this is, once we start deciding “certain types” of protest are illegal, it’s a very slippery slope. Who is the ultimate arbiter of “what’s ok”, the government? Which is the very subject most people chose to protest about. Massive conflict of interest!

Combine this with the various powers available under the Public Health Orders and it can very quickly be open to abuse.

- right of entry to your home without a warrant
- right of arrest under whatever “order” the CMO creates (not parliament)
- right to confiscate property under similar “orders”
- closure of various sectors of business (with almost nil rights of appeal)
- just to name a few

I’m not talking “Nazis” or whatever conspiracy theory you might think I’m alluding to. It’s all about having good governance in our country, I personally don’t believe that includes some of the heavy handed actions we’ve seen in the last 18 months.

To add, I think the lack of a “rights charter” or something similar means in Australia we are at huge risk of laws being crafted by various levels of government that are detrimental to whatever level of “freedom” you support. The point with this is, until a law is tested in court in Australia and found illegal/detrimental, we are subject to whatever the government of the day creates. I believe we need some sort of rights charter to measure new laws (and old) against.

*for the record the only state with anything approaching a rights charter is Victoria. Conveniently they have made all reports secret since the pandemic started. Plus as far as I’m aware, we are the ONLY Western democracy without a Bill/Charter of Human rights.

[mattyj]

That’s exactly correct, organising a protest should be an activity protected by a bill of rights (if we had one worth the paper it’s written on)..you may tut tut, or shake your head..but there are NO exceptions for taking away a free persons civil liberties. Once this is all over that policeman needs to be jailed for a very long time..he is an enemy of the people.

plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC

science as a concept has crapped all over itself though..there’s decades of work needed now to get any credibility back.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I have been enjoying your commentary mattyj. Good to have balance.

In my view - vaccinate vaccinate vaccinate - that's the only way forward.

This ABC report from the US seems to show that.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-03/america-covid-victory-independence-day-australian-expats/100261924

[Green.Dot]

I probably shouldn’t feed a troll, but I am curious…

Mattyj has your career/earnings been effected negatively by COVID? If the answer is no, don’t bother replying.

If yes how do you propose things will improve for YOU without mass vaccination? What’s YOUR plan B?

This is more than political/medical beliefs, it’s about moving forward.

[Icarus2001]

plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC

Do you have a link or reference for this news?

[dr dre]

plus have you all not heard the latest “science”?
along with many other strategies adopted last year, outdoor masking has been categorically denounced as pointless and worthless by the CDC

No, they’ve revised their guidelines because of the higher level of vaccination in the US and subsequent decrease in risk. They still recommend (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fco ronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fprevent-getting-sick%2Fsocial-distancing.html#stay6ft) mask wearing for the unvaccinated in crowded outdoor settings and in close contact with other unvaccinated in high Covid spread areas, even in summer.

science as a concept has crapped all over itself though..there’s decades of work needed now to get any credibility back.

On the contrary the use of science to combat this pandemic, especially the use of science to quickly create effective vaccines, is one the greatest achievements of humanity in years and scientists deserve to be placed far higher up the totem pole of who is honoured in our society. How many Australians would recognise our last Nobel Prize Winner versus some C grade “celebrity” spouting nonsense like Pete Evans I wonder?

The credibility of those who spend their days trolling on the internet trying to attack the “so called experts” without any evidence themselves? Well they never had any credibility to begin with.....

[minigundiplomat]

No, they’ve revised their guidelines because of the higher level of vaccination in the US and subsequent decrease in risk. They still recommend (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html?CDC_AA_refVal=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cdc.gov%2Fco ronavirus%2F2019-ncov%2Fprevent-getting-sick%2Fsocial-distancing.html#stay6ft) mask wearing for the unvaccinated in crowded outdoor settings and in close contact with other unvaccinated in high Covid spread areas, even in summer.



On the contrary the use of science to combat this pandemic, especially the use of science to quickly create effective vaccines, is one the greatest achievements of humanity in years and scientists deserve to be placed far higher up the totem pole of who is honoured in our society. How many Australians would recognise our last Nobel Prize Winner versus some C grade “celebrity” spouting nonsense like Pete Evans I wonder?

The credibility of those who spend their days trolling on the internet trying to attack the “so called experts” without any evidence themselves? Well they never had any credibility to begin with.....

Right back in early 2020 those so called experts told us the science spoke to them and told them we weren’t to wear masks. Don’t p1ss in my pocket and tell me it’s raining, scientists and doctors have been winging as much of this pandemic as they have been guided by science. And I still want guarantees that decision making that affects our civil liberties won’t be based solely on Professor Neil Ferguson’s shonky modelling in the future.

[Green.Dot]

Right back in early 2020 those so called experts told us the science spoke to them and told them we weren’t to wear masks. Don’t p1ss in my pocket and tell me it’s raining, scientists and doctors have been winging as much of this pandemic as they have been guided by science. And I still want guarantees that decision making that affects our civil liberties won’t be based solely on Professor Neil Ferguson’s shonky modelling in the future.

Seriously is it that f*cking hard to wear a mask for a couple weeks?!

Civil liberties- some of us are precious!

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

[dr dre]

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

Exactly. Here’s a great article on why the recommendations for mask wearing have changed throughout the course of the pandemic.

How Masks Went From Don’t-Wear to Must-Have (https://www.wired.com/story/how-masks-went-from-dont-wear-to-must-have/)

Basically more knowledge was gained over the first few months about the nature of transmission of the virus. There were also concerns at the start the panic buying of the existing low stocks of PPE would deny supply to medical workers and vulnerable people.

Thats what science is, the ability to change understanding based on observation of evidence.

[compressor stall]

A lot of the don't wear masks message in early 2020 was driven by in part:

Poorly handled masks can increase the risk to the wearer (bringing particles on the outside of the mask into a clean environment) - remember this was pre aerosol, back when it was determined that you needed 15 mins next to someone else to get it).
Not enough masks around to protect those who needed them (health care professionals).

No matter mow much the anti intellect brigade repeat their mantra, the no mask phase is not an indication of a failing of science or medicine . It was proportional reaction to what was around / known at the time.

[minigundiplomat]

Seriously is it that f*cking hard to wear a mask for a couple weeks?!

Civil liberties- some of us are precious!

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?

You obviously have reading difficulties- where did I say wearing a mask was an issue? I said the advice was incorrect and yes, given the circumstances that’s perfectly understandable.

Likewise, it’s understandable to question and assess advice, especially when the advice is constantly changing, often contradictory and based on data that isn’t publicly available.

To answer your flight deck analogy, there’s this new fangled thing called CRM, where we question decisions that don’t make sense.

Finally. preventing citizens from leaving or entering their nation, banning them from leaving their homes or destroying their means of income is a civil liberties issue and, although it might be the right solution, it needs questioning and more consistent and transparent data than is offered at the moment.

[601]

As for changing guidance, have you ever decided to make a change to a previous decision you made on the flight deck due to change in circumstance?
It amazes me that as professional pilots we cannot accept that the knowledge about this virus gets better with time and therefore will/may require a change to our response.
As pilots we do this all the time.
Why do some of us do not allow other professionals and Governments to change advice?
I would hate to assume that this stance against the changing advice/response is based on a political position.

To answer your flight deck analogy, there’s this new fangled thing called CRM, where we question decisions that don’t make sense.

To enable the CRM analogy to be considered in this conversation, the general population would need to have the same level of knowledge as the medical profession.
I am sure that when you moved on to a new type, a lot of what was written in study material did not make sense. You studied it and eventually it did make sense.
The medical profession is in the learning phase with this virus without any guidance or study material.

As they learn more things will change.

W

[Chronic Snoozer]

We need to “crack down” on the real problem. Rampant overreach.

On Thursday, the Western Australian premier Mark McGowan claimed that “more than 100,000” people had travelled overseas “unnecessarily”.

“They book a conference somewhere in Europe, then have a holiday, then come back and join the queue,” McGowan told reporters in Perth. “It’s just not right. We need to crack down on this.”

McGowan claimed that a “large group of people” have gone overseas on multiple occasions, increasing the risk of Covid-19 spread on their return and displacing returning Australians.

He cited the fact that of the 51,000 people who had been through hotel quarantine in Perth, 1,308 had been through twice, 506 people had been through three times, and 82 had been through four times.

McGowan called to “crack down very, very heavily on the number allowed to go overseas”.


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/03/travel-exemptions-rise-as-more-australians-apply-to-fly-overseas

Correct me if I’m wrong but the halving of caps on international arrivals has come in the face of the ‘Delta’ strain of the virus, not because there has been another leak in the hotel quarantine system. A limit on arrivals has always been in place, it makes no difference if people head overseas in numbers, they know there is a queue to get back in. So instead of halving the caps, just do a better job of prioritising which people are permitted to enter Australia.

[Foxxster]

Hopefully our future. My guess or hope sometime first quarter 2022. As we are behind in our vaccination program and it won’t be until February or March that we will match the current UK rate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9753097/Sajid-Javid-goes-speed-ahead-lifting-lockdown-restrictions.html

[Lead Balloon]

[P]reventing citizens from leaving or entering their nation, banning them from leaving their homes or destroying their means of income is a civil liberties issue and, although it might be the right solution, it needs questioning and more consistent and transparent data than is offered at the moment.What it "needs" is a price put on it. Dollars. Along with the price of the mental and physical and mental health issues, suicides, and plain old economic loss. Dollars.

The dollars might be an estimate, but at the moment there is not even that.

Whether the approach taken to Covid 19 is "the right solution" depends on how much it really costs.

The approach being taken at the moment is to 'throw everything' at the virus, irrespective of the cost (though it would have been nice if the Federal government had thrown money at proper quarantine facilities earlier, when it was durr-obvious they were needed). Covid 19 is 'public enemy number 1' and it's being fought no matter the cost. No price is put on the value of the lives saved.

But why, then, don't we shut down the roads, permanently, to prevent the loss of life in road accidents? Our political 'leaders' won't say it, but the reason is because the consequential costs to society of shutting the roads down would far outweigh the value of the lives that would be saved.

Maybe a life lost on the road is less valuable than a life lost to Covid 19?

The response to Covid 19 reminds me a lot of aviation safety regulation in Australia.

Our political 'leaders' have abdicated their responsibilities to technical - in this case medical - experts. The medical experts have been asked how to fight Covid 19 and our 'leaders' have 'acted on the medical advice'.

The medical experts have not been asked for - because they couldn't tell you - an estimate of the cost of fighting Covid 19 in the way they've recommended. Estimating the value of curtailed liberties, the value of the physical and mental health impacts of those locked down or restricted in travel, the businesses and livelihoods lost and just plain old economic activity, is not their job. The medical experts might 'care' about those costs, in the sense that they'd prefer the costs not be paid, but it's not the medical experts' job to decide whether or not the costs should be paid in return for following their recommended approach to mitigating Covid 19 risks. That's supposed to be the job of our 'leaders'.

Ask CASA for the real costs of, for example, the 'community service flight' changes. CASA wouldn't know and doesn't care. It's moved risks out of the air to 'somewhere else' where 'someone else' will pay the price.

Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is randomly locking down cities, randomly shutting down interstate and international borders and going the odd trillion or so into further debt). What could possibly go wrong?

[dr dre]

Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is ... randomly shutting down interstate and international borders.

It’s already been suggested:

LNP Senator Gerard Rennick says borders should stay closed to prevent foreigners pushing down wages (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/senator-says-borders-should-stay-close-to-prevent-foreigners-pushing-down-wages-20210526-p57v58.html)

[PoppaJo]

Didn’t McGowan also want his border closed permanently to try and keep the meth out?

[Foxxster]

It’s already been suggested:

LNP Senator Gerard Rennick says borders should stay closed to prevent foreigners pushing down wages (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/senator-says-borders-should-stay-close-to-prevent-foreigners-pushing-down-wages-20210526-p57v58.html)


well he is right that the third world level of population growth driven by various forms of immigration most certainly have kept wages low and is a deliberate policy lobbied by big business.

as for keeping the borders closed, that part is madness.

you can of course open the borders AND significantly reduce immigration at the same time.

[KRviator]

Dunno about the border, but he certainly wants to keep his G2G pass so they can track not only who's coming in, but where you'll be going once you're in.

[Dannyboy39]

We need to “crack down” on the real problem. Rampant overreach.



https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/03/travel-exemptions-rise-as-more-australians-apply-to-fly-overseas

Correct me if I’m wrong but the halving of caps on international arrivals has come in the face of the ‘Delta’ strain of the virus, not because there has been another leak in the hotel quarantine system. A limit on arrivals has always been in place, it makes no difference if people head overseas in numbers, they know there is a queue to get back in. So instead of halving the caps, just do a better job of prioritising which people are permitted to enter Australia.
I just can't believe people are happy to live in North Korea.

[WingNut60]

That’s exactly correct, organising a protest should be an activity protected by a bill of rights (if we had one worth the paper it’s written on)..you may tut tut, or shake your head..but there are NO exceptions for taking away a free persons civil liberties...............
I won't argue with the principle of protecting the right to protest.
What I do not accept is that anyone either needs to nor has the right to break the law in order to protest.

The examples that you cite involved people breaking the laws regarding wearing of masks and social distancing.
If you allow people to break the law in order to "big note" their protests then which laws do you think that they should be allowed to break? Common affray? Manslaughter, perhaps?

[SOPS]

well he is right that the third world level of population growth driven by various forms of immigration most certainly have kept wages low and is a deliberate policy lobbied by big business.

as for keeping the borders closed, that part is madness.

you can of course open the borders AND significantly reduce immigration at the same time.

I agree. You can have open borders.. but the pre Covid level of immigration has to stop. Aside from anything else, wages have to stop been driven to rock bottom, and we have to stop importing other countries problems.

[WingNut60]

Didn’t McGowan also want his border closed permanently to try and keep the meth out?
No. He wanted to keep the state border police inspection posts to scrutinise for narcotics traffic. Not quite the same as closing the border.

Just for the record, WA has had those border inspection posts for at least 30 years (Eucla and Kununarra).
Police conduct both random and targeted inspections of cars crossing the border for firearms, etc.
And quarantine check cars for prohibited movement of agricultural products.

I have seen exactly the same in the U.S.
The inspection post on the MonIda border comes to mind.

[WingNut60]

I agree. You can have open borders.. but the pre Covid level of immigration has to stop. Aside from anything else, wages have to stop been driven to rock bottom, and we have to stop importing other countries problems.
Yep. Big business wants cheap labour. All mention of "skilled labour" is horse feathers.
Just ask Gina Hancock.

If they want skilled labour they should be recruiting in Europe and South America, not just S-E Asia.
Or they could try spending a couple of dollars on training domestic employees.

[Potsie Weber]

No. He wanted to keep the state border police inspection posts to scrutinise for narcotics traffic. Not quite the same as closing the border.

Just for the record, WA has had those border inspection posts for at least 30 years (Eucla and Kununarra).
Police conduct both random and targeted inspections of cars crossing the border for firearms, etc.
And quarantine check cars for prohibited movement of agricultural products.

I have seen exactly the same in the U.S.
The inspection post on the MonIda border comes to mind.

No. What he and Dawson wanted to do was keep the controlled border and the g2g pass post pandemic. That means you would have to apply to enter the state and supply a range of personal details. He back peddled pretty quick when people questioned his police state mentality. WA police have used the g2g to track criminals as well as accessing the COVID check-in app for criminal investigations. Such actions are an appalling abuse of police powers into health and undermines the success of the check-in app which should be solely for public health.

[WingNut60]

No. What he and Dawson wanted to do was keep the controlled border and the g2g pass post pandemic. That means you would have to apply to enter the state and supply a range of personal details. He back peddled pretty quick when people questioned his police state mentality. WA police have used the g2g to track criminals as well as accessing the COVID check-in app for criminal investigations. Such actions are an appalling abuse of police powers into health and undermines the success of the check-in app which should be solely for public health.

People have asserted that as being his avowed aim however I have seen nothing that shows that to be the case.
I saw a very brief clip on the news where he responded briefly about the possible benefit of ongoing border controls however he did not say anything specific in that interview.
It was later reported as ".......Mr McGowan would not rule out extending the G2G application system beyond the pandemic, arguing it had been effective in keeping not just COVID-19 out, but also illicit drugs such as methamphetamine......."
My recollection is that it was a very short, almost throw-away reply to a leading question.
I'm calling "fake news" on that one.

Perhaps he made those assertions in a different interview in which case I'd be interested to see the footage.

As for the mis-use of the Covid check-in app, I agree.
A terrible abuse of trust for which all responsible should be held to account.
I am further interested to know whatever happened to the promise to permanently delete records after 28 days.
Records older than 28 days can be of no further use for legitimate contact tracing.
So, are they being deleted?

[Chronic Snoozer]

People have asserted that as being his avowed aim however I have seen nothing that shows that to be the case.
I saw a very brief clip on the news where he responded briefly about the possible benefit of ongoing border controls however he did not say anything specific in that interview.
It was later reported as ".......Mr McGowan would not rule out extending the G2G application system beyond the pandemic, arguing it had been effective in keeping not just COVID-19 out, but also illicit drugs such as methamphetamine......."
My recollection is that it was a very short, almost throw-away reply to a leading question.
I'm calling "fake news" on that one.

Perhaps he made those assertions in a different interview in which case I'd be interested to see the footage.

As for the mis-use of the Covid check-in app, I agree.
A terrible abuse of trust for which all responsible should be held to account.
I am further interested to know whatever happened to the promise to permanently delete records after 28 days.
Records older than 28 days can be of no further use for legitimate contact tracing.
So, are they being deleted?

Here you go. McGowan backflip (https://7news.com.au/news/wa/wa-could-track-travellers-beyond-pandemic-c-2270059). Make of the reporting what you will.

Asked specifically whether incoming travellers would need to continue using the G2G pass, the premier said he couldn’t predict exactly what restrictions might remain.

It wasn’t what he said, it’s what he didn’t say. Journos will read into things far more than politicians intend. Alternatively, it’s possible politicians intend for things to be interpreted in a particular way.

But hours later, Mr McGowan backtracked, confirming the G2G pass system would “obviously” be scrapped when the pandemic ended.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/wa-premier-mark-mcgowan-wants-border-controls-to-continue-beyond-covid19-pandemic/news-story/e3c051bb087c8e01d593fb0f0bd85acb

If he wasn’t even contemplating it why not provide a direct ‘NO’ when asked if the G2G pass would continue post pandemic? McGowan was most likely just thinking out loud.

[WingNut60]

.................It wasn’t what he said, it’s what he didn’t say. Journos will read into things far more than politicians intend. .................

Exactly!

I had already seen that article; and others.
I also saw the original interview.
A refusal to confirm is not a confirmation of intention.

He was dumb not to come straight out and say what he knew all along - that he would never be able to carry that one off, even if he wanted to.
And unlike the journos, I didn't see anything in his response that suggested that he had any such intention in the first place.

Chris Dawson? Maybe.
He's a copper and they've never been squeamish about trampling on civil rights.

[Paragraph377]

Still, all of the economic numbers are great. Record house prices, low unemployment, GDP and inflation numbers looking good. Perhaps what Australia should keep doing indefinitely, and irrespective of Covid 19, is randomly locking down cities, randomly shutting down interstate and international borders and going the odd trillion or so into further debt). What could possibly go wrong?

I couldn’t agree more! House prices are booming so that must be good, right? Couldn’t be a bubble. Nah. And inflation, it’s rising in Australia, Europe and the USA so that’s a good thing, right? And yes, an extra trillion dollars in debt, who cares! Just print some more money, right? Of course. So yes, closing borders and locking down countries for everyone (except the wealthy, famous and of course politicians) is a great thing. Can we have some more please sir? I mean, flu cases are at an all time low so keep the place under lock and key I say.

[PoppaJo]

What’s the plan next week Gladys? Care to take a one week full blown Dan Lockdown to exit this ****show? I wouldn’t mind some of my roster back thanks let alone all those poor people who have got absolutely nothing for what appears is going to be a long while yet.

Is she seriously thinking she can get out of this mess via a suppression strategy from next week? I mean I’m sure it can be done, however they will be a red zone until September. Hurry the $!&@ up!

[blubak]

What’s the plan next week Gladys? Care to take a one week full blown Dan Lockdown to exit this ****show? I wouldn’t mind some of my roster back thanks let alone all those poor people who have got absolutely nothing for what appears is going to be a long while yet.

Is she seriously thinking she can get out of this mess via a suppression strategy from next week? I mean I’m sure it can be done, however they will be a red zone until September. Hurry the $!&@ up!
Just read an article in the SMH referring to her as a 'cool mum'.
Looks like people are just doing as they like & as long as they have a story to back it up,theres no problem.
I know that many agree with her stratergy but like you point out there are many who just want it over with asap.
We in vic know all about lockdowns & of course there are as many that agree as disagree so hopefully for all in nsw right now it ends quickly.

[PoppaJo]

Kingsford Smith cannot be at a standstill until the end of August. I can’t believe that I am siding with McGowan here, but if there is a time to play whack a mole, now is it.

I have stood by her approach in the past but for heavens sake get it over and done with and we can get back into YSSY by the end of this month.

My colleagues down there all are fairly upfront that they are living on scraps for the next 8 weeks. I don’t know how half of them do it. Some are so financially screwed they are asking to move base to a regional port to get back in the black. Many industries will go back under her suppression attempt next week however Aviation will be 4-8 weeks behind.

[KRviator]

You're missing the point. It isn't Gladys that has the issue. She's not only trying to keep things going, she's trying to keep Australia going, avoiding a state/city-wide lockdown and arguing against reducing the arrivals cap (though I disagree with her there, though, it should be reduced, "they" have had plenty of time to get home, and if you want to go, you can bloody well stay gone, till we get a handle on it).

IMHO, the problem is the likes of McGowan and Queen-P and their "Zero Covid at any cost" mantra that's butt-phucking Victoria (first) and now NSW & Queensland residents. Have a look at the statistics - in the last 6 months, there's been over 1,000 new cases in NSW alone, yet not a single death. However the borders are "slammed closed" every time someone in Cobar sneezes.

If NSW can go from 4,700 cases to 5,700 cases in 6 months, without a single fatality do you really think it warrants border closures? Or if you go back a year, going from 3,200 cases & 51 total deaths to 5,700 cases and 56 total deaths (2,500 new cases but only 6 Covid deaths in 12 months), can anyone honestly say it warrants the over-reaction from the likes of McGoose or Anna-Stayaway - or is it they are so shyte-scared of it in their respective states as their state health systems couldn't cope with it the way NSW has? And let's remember, in Clive v WA, the WA CHO testified they could handle 5,000 actuve cases of Covid at any one time....

So who is it that really has a problem with Covid management??

[mattyj]

The media and cowards

[jrfsp]

Avoiding a city wide lockdown??? Isnt that whats currently happening?? Half arsed and will drag on for longer....just get on with it.....the borders to the rest of the country are thankfully starting to open up again after the quick lockdowns.

Why always single out WA and QLD.......SA and TAS are also on the zero covid mentality - nothing to do with politics obviously....

[KRviator]

Why always single out WA and QLD.......SA and TAS are also on the zero covid mentality - nothing to do with politics obviously....Why am I always singling out WA and Qld? No, it ain't politics, I don't subscribe to either Labor or Liberal, rather I genuinely believe they're all a pack of asreholes and you're only voting on who is going to use the most lube while they screw you over...

But, to actually answer your question, for WA simply because I work there, and their standard response is to lock out everyone from NSW, not just the LGA. By the end of this dance, I will be well over $100K out of pocket because I cannot get to work. I had 11 months off work last year, burning through what leave I could access at half-pay, then going on LWOP. I am going on LWOP again now because I am in NSW and can't get to work, even though I live in an LGA that has had exactly zero local cases, since Covid began! But obviously, the 'expert' health advice being given by the WA CHO is that we're all too much of a risk out here in the sticks of NSW, so I'm SOL, along with dozens of colleagues.

But you've raised Tasmania, so let's consider what would happen if I worked in the apple aisle:
New South Wales - border restrictions
New South Wales remains low-risk apart from:
The Local Government Areas (Level 2) listed below and as shown in this map
High-risk (Level 1) premises listed below.
Source (https://www.coronavirus.tas.gov.au/travellers-and-visitors/coming-to-tasmania/travel-alert#nsw)South Australia is copying WA and locking out anyone and everyone from NSW, no matter if you live in Walgett, Wyong or Waverly! The difference is, only one of those places has Covid issues...

And as for Queensland, no one in NSW is going to let her off the hook after her "Queensland hospitals are for Queenslanders!" comment that led to the death of an infant, even if indirectly. Nor are they going to forgive the impact on NSW citizens who live in Northern NSW and their being locked out of Queensland, while at the same time, the Queen-P's-Land CHO openly declared "if you're famous, a footy player, or are going to bring some $$ with you, we'll welcome you with open arms!" while at the same time, thumbing her nose at everyone else.

So no, it isn't politics, if you treat Australian citizens like shyte, expect to be called out on it.

[Chronic Snoozer]

apple aisle

Does that come off Orchard Road? ;)

[Chris2303]

And here we go again

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-lambda-strain-hits-uk/BSJ52H5XDJJEB6NGMFIOWYZG44/

[blubak]

Kingsford Smith cannot be at a standstill until the end of August. I can’t believe that I am siding with McGowan here, but if there is a time to play whack a mole, now is it.

I have stood by her approach in the past but for heavens sake get it over and done with and we can get back into YSSY by the end of this month.

My colleagues down there all are fairly upfront that they are living on scraps for the next 8 weeks. I don’t know how half of them do it. Some are so financially screwed they are asking to move base to a regional port to get back in the black. Many industries will go back under her suppression attempt next week however Aviation will be 4-8 weeks behind.
Agreed her approach has been very sensible but now its a bit of a different story.
There are all of these close contacts of the unvaccinated nurse & also the staff in a nursing home of whom 2/3 are not vaccinated.
The feds say all healthcare workers have to have been vaccinated by Sept 1st,thats 2 months away ffs!
If these are the facts & nobody is taking any notice of her stay at home orders & whatever else she has in place it is now time as you say to go full tilt to control it.
Personally i hate strict lockdowns along with most others i know but looking at whats unfolding in nsw now,its going to go on for a long time & end up in a long lockdown just like ours last year.
Good luck to everyone being affected(again),we are all hoping this is over very soon.

[Gnadenburg]

(though I disagree with her there, though, it should be reduced, "they" have had plenty of time to get home, and if you want to go, you can bloody well stay gone, till we get a handle on it).

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans.

[dr dre]

And here we go again

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-lambda-strain-hits-uk/BSJ52H5XDJJEB6NGMFIOWYZG44/

No need to worry:

The results suggest that vaccines in current use will remain protective against the lambda variant

SARS-CoV-2 Lambda Variant Remains Susceptible to Neutralization by mRNA Vaccine-elicited Antibodies (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.02.450959v1)

[ScepticalOptomist]

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans.

Couldn’t have said it better - what a bunch of cowardly, spineless, heartless pr!cks some have become.

[KRviator]

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans.Spoken like someone who expects a handout when things go to shyte. I'd love the Government to show me the same support you expect them to show someone stuck overseas - because so far, I have received exactly $0.00 from CenterLink / JobKeeper / JobSeeker / 'the Government' in support, be it financial or otherwise, despite looking at a 6-figure financial loss due to this. I don't think I am alone in that either...

At the start of the pandemic, we were told there were approximately 30,000-odd Australians registered with DFAT who wanted to come home. Since then, thousands have left and returned, a few multiple times over, and we are still at or above, that original figure.

Australia has done pretty well in terms of Covid cases, though no doubt it is due to paranoid state leaders raising the drawbridge themselves when there's a sniffle somewhere, but I don't see you arguing against that mentality to allow the hundreds of thousands of Australian's who are already in Australia their "right to travel" (or rather, their constitutionally-protected right to not be penalised based on the state in which they live) vs the comparatively few stuck overseas their "right to return home".

The rights of 26,000,000 Australian's to travel freely within their own country without the border bollocks - or simply to their place of employment outweigh the desire of a few to come home. I'll be quite frank, were I PM, there wouldn't be any international arrivals until Australia had reached either herd immunity, or the vaccination target. Whether it is international flightcrew passing it on to their transport/hotel workers, or HQ leaks - and I do agree with you that that system is an abortion - from returning passengers have cost this country tens of billions of dollars. IIRC, the ABC quoted the last Victorian lockdown at $125M per day, the current Sydney one, $140M per day!

Reckon that is truly worth the cost of bringing a few thousand 'stranded' citizens home? I don't think it is...

[Torukmacto]

Cowering entitlement!

Not since the Fall of Singapore in 1942 have so many Australians around the globe been abandoned. Those dark times were compounded by the fact we were at war.

The attitudes of the Australian public to fellow Australians abroad has been a disgrace. Akin to blaming bushfire victims for living in the bush, flood victims for living near rivers. Now, the public hysteria and abandonment of overseas Australians has been turned into political mileage. Distracting politicians and Australians alike, from not only the systemic failure of government in meeting the first challenge of the century ( God help us if war involving near-peer adversaries such as China ) but also the decency on what it took to build this country on the basis of immigration and diversity last century.

There are simple, pragmatic solutions to what we have have faced with a million Australians abroad that don't involve mixing them all up in a failed hotel quarantine system. It is not difficult nor impossible to ensure returning Aussies vaccinated from countries offering such. Look at our top 15 trading partners and at least half would be viable in having returnees vaccinated or at least government sponsored programs. COVID vaccinated and tested returnees pose little risk.

I don't doubt that when Australians start travelling again, the masses with the screw the Aussies abroad and raise the drawbridge attitude, will expect the Australian government to come rescue them and their families from any troubles they may experience. Terrorism, natural disasters or consular support from being "banged up abroad".

Cowering fools and bogans

Exactly ,
Not that long ago a generation offered the ultimate sacrifice to defend the country now we won’t risk a jab for a better future . Happy to leave the next generation paying off our debts so we can sit at home feeling safe . Get the impression many feel entitled to having a life of no sacrifices and leave to others for protection . It’s governments job to keep me safe it’s unions job to protect my job while I offer nothing but take everything .

[SHVC]

And here we go again

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/covid-19-coronavirus-lambda-strain-hits-uk/BSJ52H5XDJJEB6NGMFIOWYZG44/


This is becoming a bit of a joke! Lambda more contagious than delta, delta more contagious than beta. So I'm guessing by years end we will have a virus that will be so contagious it will be transmitted by mobile phone waves whilst talking to an infectious person.

[SCPL_1988]

Yes, NZ has done a better job than Australia to this point in time.
The world has enough idiots and getting 100% vaccination is not going to happen.

There is an absence of reality planning, either legislate 100 vaccination for 99.999%
of every thing or maintain the crazy world of denial and the loony news from Mr. Conflation and Mrs Cherry Picker

[Chronic Snoozer]

This is becoming a bit of a joke! Lambda more contagious than delta, delta more contagious than beta. So I'm guessing by years end we will have a virus that will be so contagious it will be transmitted by mobile phone waves whilst talking to an infectious person.

You probably caught a new strain just reading about it.

[MickG0105]

This is becoming a bit of a joke! Lambda more contagious than delta, delta more contagious than beta.
It's not 'a joke' rather it is simply how mutant strains emerge and become prevalent enough to make it into a sizeable enough proportion of the population to become noticeable.

Given the current pandemic spread of the coronavirus mutations are likely bobbing up frequently. However, in order for any of the new variants to 'succeed' enough to be noticed they need to be doing something 'better' than the current dominant variant. Transmissibility and virulence are two ways of succeeding. You will rarely if ever see less successful - that is less transmissible or less virulent - mutated variants outside of laboratories.

A couple of blokes - Darwin and Wallace - wrote about this sort of thing some time back.

[Icarus2001]

I think the media sensed that the great unwashed were not scared enough any longer, so they keep reporting minor changes to the C19 virus. Imagine if suicides in Australia were reported at the same rate…or motor vehicle deaths.

Suicide deaths in Australia, around 3200 per annum.

Motor vehicle accident deaths around 1100 per annum.

[SCPL_1988]

The Conservative fake news brigade is out in force, conflating irrelevant facts with covid
when Australia has due its actions, kept covid so far to very low numbers.
Its this kind of toxic propaganda that poses a greater long term risk to logical
thinking.

[Icarus2001]

I made no claim about fake news. Read my post again.

For the last 18 months the media has been in a Covid frenzy. massively over reporting tiny details, small case numbers etc. Misrepresenting ATAGI advice on Astra Zeneca to the point that the media claimed it was unsafe for under fifties/forties/sixties. To the point the Qld CHO weighed in and was reported massively but when the Australian CMO (federal) contradicted her medical advice it was hardly reported in the media.
Misrepresenting Morrison (no not a fan but still) that he told young people to get the AZ vaccine. I saw his press conference, he said go and see your GP about it, exactly what Dan Andrews said, don't take medical advice from a politician go to your GP.
The media are making a bad situation worse, they are not helping in any way, they are pushing their own agenda. Just like they do on most topics.

[nonsense]

Just read an article in the SMH referring to her as a 'cool mum'.
Looks like people are just doing as they like & as long as they have a story to back it up,theres no problem.
I know that many agree with her stratergy but like you point out there are many who just want it over with asap.
We in vic know all about lockdowns & of course there are as many that agree as disagree so hopefully for all in nsw right now it ends quickly.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/nsw/sydneysiders-are-like-a-pack-of-teens-taking-advantage-of-glad-s-cool-mum-parenting-20210704-p586pz.html

[Icarus2001]

But there is a flaw in this approach because Sydneysiders are like a pack of clueless teenagers.

Appalling “journalism”.

[Lead Balloon]

In fairness to the author, she claims only to be a 'writer and musician', not a journalist.

[Chris2303]

This is becoming a bit of a joke! Lambda more contagious than delta, delta more contagious than beta. So I'm guessing by years end we will have a virus that will be so contagious it will be transmitted by mobile phone waves whilst talking to an infectious person.

More likely to be transmitted by those 5G chips in your arm.

One moment please, my shoulder is trying to talk to me

[SHVC]

Given the current pandemic .

Its only a pandemic in Australia, Its almost Endemic in rest of the world. There must be a media block on showing footage of whats going on outside Australia. Are we the next North Korea!

[MickG0105]

Its only a pandemic in Australia, Its almost Endemic in rest of the world.
Debatable but utterly irrelevant to the point I was making. The reason that newly emerged variants are more transmissible has nothing to do with humour or reporting, it's a simple matter of evolutionary biology.

There must be a media block on showing footage of whats going on outside Australia. Are we the next North Korea!
​​​​​​?!

[Gnadenburg]

Spoken like someone who expects a handout when things go to shyte. I'd love the Government to show me the same support you expect them to show someone stuck overseas - because so far, I have received exactly $0.00 from CenterLink / JobKeeper / JobSeeker / 'the Government' in support, be it financial or otherwise, despite looking at a 6-figure financial loss due to this. I don't think I am alone in that either...

At the start of the pandemic, we were told there were approximately 30,000-odd Australians registered with DFAT who wanted to come home. Since then, thousands have left and returned, a few multiple times over, and we are still at or above, that original figure.

Australia has done pretty well in terms of Covid cases, though no doubt it is due to paranoid state leaders raising the drawbridge themselves when there's a sniffle somewhere, but I don't see you arguing against that mentality to allow the hundreds of thousands of Australian's who are already in Australia their "right to travel" (or rather, their constitutionally-protected right to not be penalised based on the state in which they live) vs the comparatively few stuck overseas their "right to return home".

The rights of 26,000,000 Australian's to travel freely within their own country without the border bollocks - or simply to their place of employment outweigh the desire of a few to come home. I'll be quite frank, were I PM, there wouldn't be any international arrivals until Australia had reached either herd immunity, or the vaccination target. Whether it is international flightcrew passing it on to their transport/hotel workers, or HQ leaks - and I do agree with you that that system is an abortion - from returning passengers have cost this country tens of billions of dollars. IIRC, the ABC quoted the last Victorian lockdown at $125M per day, the current Sydney one, $140M per day!

Reckon that is truly worth the cost of bringing a few thousand 'stranded' citizens home? I don't think it is...

What an extraordinary post. Appallingly ignorant of the plight of your "fellow" Australians. Appallingly and fanatically self-righteous, deflecting the blame of incompetent governence on Australians with the misfortune of being caught out abroad.

What do you think Australians stuck overseas receive from the government? I'll tell you what they get. Nothing! You get a bill for a hotel quarantine that often presents more of a chance of catching COVID than the country you have left.

At the start of the pandemic, a panicked Prime Minister told Australians through media and DFAT to stay put if safe and gainfully employed. Despite claims from some Australians 12 months later that expatriates should have come home when they had the chance, this original instruction is overlooked. Why do you think the numbers coming home has swelled? Perhaps because of job losses months after the pandemic began? Economic turmoil was staggered.

When all is said and done, Australia has probably bungled COVID. It's also potentially been exposed, providing a template for coercion and defeat, as aggressive nations see ease of division amongst State governments and even the social fabric of our communities.

Back to your opening line. I expect no financial assistance from government. I will not ever qualify for a government handout. This is typical of many Australians returning home. However, some Australians abroad have lost their livelihoods and have limited resources. Just to simply have a chance to repatriate, it may cost a similar to what you claim COVID to have cost you- six figures wasn't it?

Yours is an indecent and once un-Australian attitude.

[aviation_enthus]

Spoken like someone who expects a handout when things go to shyte. I'd love the Government to show me the same support you expect them to show someone stuck overseas - because so far, I have received exactly $0.00 from CenterLink / JobKeeper / JobSeeker / 'the Government' in support, be it financial or otherwise, despite looking at a 6-figure financial loss due to this. I don't think I am alone in that either...

At the start of the pandemic, we were told there were approximately 30,000-odd Australians registered with DFAT who wanted to come home. Since then, thousands have left and returned, a few multiple times over, and we are still at or above, that original figure.

Australia has done pretty well in terms of Covid cases, though no doubt it is due to paranoid state leaders raising the drawbridge themselves when there's a sniffle somewhere, but I don't see you arguing against that mentality to allow the hundreds of thousands of Australian's who are already in Australia their "right to travel" (or rather, their constitutionally-protected right to not be penalised based on the state in which they live) vs the comparatively few stuck overseas their "right to return home".

The rights of 26,000,000 Australian's to travel freely within their own country without the border bollocks - or simply to their place of employment outweigh the desire of a few to come home. I'll be quite frank, were I PM, there wouldn't be any international arrivals until Australia had reached either herd immunity, or the vaccination target. Whether it is international flightcrew passing it on to their transport/hotel workers, or HQ leaks - and I do agree with you that that system is an abortion - from returning passengers have cost this country tens of billions of dollars. IIRC, the ABC quoted the last Victorian lockdown at $125M per day, the current Sydney one, $140M per day!

Reckon that is truly worth the cost of bringing a few thousand 'stranded' citizens home? I don't think it is...

And with an attitude like that, you shouldn’t be entitled to any taxpayer money even if you needed it!!

I’m glad to see there is a growing number of people on this forum who are finally realising what a farce our current border policy is. It’s good to see people like you becoming the minority.

The “rights of 26 million Australians” are not dependent on your location. Just like “Queensland hospitals for Queenslanders” was abhorrent, so is the idea that somehow you aren’t “Australian” once you leave our shores.

To be clear, “rights” don’t include a handout. Seeing as you are so concerned about precious taxpayer dollars I thought it important to make this CLEAR. “Rights” include something as simple as being able to get home, something that doesn’t actually cost the government anything, seeing as quarantine is user pays and all that…. And I pay for my own ticket... And I pay for the PCR test on departure…

Where does taxpayer money come into that other than getting in my way??

Guess what?! Home quarantine would be even cheaper for the government, probably require far less staff given the high tech monitoring options available (bracelets).

And the staggering part?? Returning Australians are probably more likely to be vaccinated than plebs like you. Wife and I got ours back in March, did Australia even have the Pfizer then?? 😂

I certainly hope you NEVER become PM.

[Gnadenburg]

Returning Australians are probably more likely to be vaccinated than plebs like you. Wife and I got ours back in March, did Australia even have the Pfizer then?? 😂

Sadly, a high percentage of Australians are equating the lethality of COVID to that of Ebola! Too much reality TV and celebrity worship? Or just the continued erosion of our education system?

However, politicians are drawing mileage out of the public hysteria and their own bungled quarantine and vaccine programs and have halved caps for retuning Australian citizens. They are looking back and not forward! As you indicated, vaccine roll-outs in other First World countries are way ahead of ours. The way forward is to adjust the quarantine system and consider science for vaccinated returnees.

Now if Aussies are equating COVID to Ebola, they are not going to have much consideration for the vaccinated. Politicians can draw mileage again, out of paranoia of the at home Aussies, and leave Australians abroad to the mercy of their circumstances ( who cares? )

So what would science say? A returning Australian is fully vaccinated and COVID tested before departure. They are put into hotel quarantine where finally, staff are vaccinated. What would science say the risks of a COVID leakage now? Requires a vaccinated to vaccinated transmission and then a further transmission into the community. But look what we've done. Instead of moving forwards, it's a backward step to months ago in the pandemic where airliners are coming to Australia empty due slashed caps.

If leaders looked forward, it is not beyond the realm of possibility to repatriate mostly vaccinated Australians. Government charters of unvaccinated Australians where leakage of COVID a historical issue, could se better concentration of quarantine protocols.

[turbantime]

Real data from NSW for vaccinated returned travellers 1 March - 26 June 2021 shows vaccinated travellers posing a very low risk.

NSW Epi report (https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports.aspx)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/996x697/7916174c_7bb6_4684_89ea_795ab87e4362_5321dafb23e4b6a2044da4d 8516a1b5f279b04a4.jpeg

[KRviator]

Gnadenburg]What an extraordinary post. Appallingly ignorant of the plight of your "fellow" Australians. Appallingly and fanatically self-righteous, deflecting the blame of incompetent governence on Australians with the misfortune of being caught out abroad.
...
Yours is an indecent and once un-Australian attitude.You can think of it as being ignorant of those overseas or as it being unAustralian, but while I've always subscribed to the concept of 'doing the right thing', I don't believe it should be done 'at any cost'. That's what people are suggesting. "Reopen the borders, bring our people home, let them quarantine at home, it'll be fine!'

Except it won't be.To be clear, “rights” don’t include a handout. Seeing as you are so concerned about precious taxpayer dollars I thought it important to make this CLEAR. “Rights” include something as simple as being able to get home, something that doesn’t actually cost the government anything, seeing as quarantine is user pays and all that…. And I pay for my own ticket... And I pay for the PCR test on departure…

Where does taxpayer money come into that other than getting in my way??The PPE for the staff to process you. The ongoing & repetitive cleaning of the vehicles used to transport you. The overtime and diversion of GD police to monitor the respective HQ sites. The salaries of the security guards who monitor the corridors, government-sponsored repatriation flights, if you can get one. And let's not forget, the hundreds of millions of dollars it costs your fellow Australian's when not if it gets out of HQ again, because some asreclown of a driver of the flightcrew who brought you over wasn't vaccinated, caught it, and spread the love throughout the eastern suburbs, or an UberEats driver tarried in the corridor delivering someone's dinner.

More returnee's = more flightcrew = more chance of it getting out, even if you quarantine at home!. Going back to pre-Covid flight numbers, which some here seem to be suggesting happen, will likely result in a similar number of flight & cabin crew in HQ as we have returning citizens now. And as we've proven so many times, HQ can't keep it contained, and that being the case, where is the reward for the additional risk?

Guess what?! Home quarantine would be even cheaper for the government, probably require far less staff given the high tech monitoring options available (bracelets).

And the staggering part?? Returning Australians are probably more likely to be vaccinated than plebs like you. Wife and I got ours back in March, did Australia even have the Pfizer then?? 😂You say you can quarantine at home. Fat chance of that. We have seen far too many examples of returning citizens, or even interstate travelers breaking out of the HQ system, the old couple who was reported to have triggered the northern beaches outbreak after they decided to go for lunch at the RSL, HQ guards getting it on with 'inmates', the bird who climbed down two balconies and broke a door to get out.... Face facts - people cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Vaccinated or not. Home quarantine or not. Most people will play by the rules but there will always be those that don't! And that's probably why home quarantine isn't even on their radar. Because sooner or later, someone will decide home-quarantine isn't all its' cracked up to be, will go to the shops and will spread it through the community. Being vaccinated simply means there is less risk of it happening.

Real data from NSW for vaccinated returned travellers 1 March - 26 June 2021 shows vaccinated travellers posing a very low risk.If I read that right, 5% of those in that chart were vaccinated of some description, and still caught, or had, the pestilence.

If you apply that to the so-called magic figure of 30,000 overseas citizens, that's still 1,500 people coming home, to suggested home quarantine, with the virus. Even reducing it to the 2% reported to be fully vaccinated still gives you 600 people coming home with it. Whether that number will stay static or reduce as time goes on, I can't say. If it doesn't though, the Government will be knowingly importing Covid at a rate of roughly 4 cases per aircraft (assuming 200 pax), with the core belief that every one of those people will not pass it on to their housemates or family while they are in home quarantine.....Until we reach herd immunity or the vaccination target, I can't see that happening...

[Chronic Snoozer]

And the staggering part?? Returning Australians are probably more likely to be vaccinated than plebs like you. Wife and I got ours back in March, did Australia even have the Pfizer then?? 😂

Yes, it did.

[patty50]

And the staggering part?? Returning Australians are probably more likely to be vaccinated than plebs like you. Wife and I got ours back in March, did Australia even have the Pfizer then?? 😂


Truly a mystery why locals don’t give a toss about emigrants.

[PoppaJo]

Cases have further deteriorated overnight since 8pm. See you in September Sydney.

[aviation_enthus]

If I read that right, 5% of those in that chart were vaccinated of some description, and still caught, or had, the pestilence.


Nope you’ve read it wrong.

From the 1st March
- 458 total cases
- 11 of the those cases were in fully vaccinated travellers
- 405 were unvaccinated.

If you consider that as a percentage of arrivals:
- 1st March to 26th June (15.5 weeks)
- NSW takes 3000 per week
- 46,500 arrivals.

So those 11 FULLY VACCINATED positive cases represent 0.0002% of all arrivals.

But don’t let some facts get in the way of your irrational fear.

[MickG0105]

Real data from NSW for vaccinated returned travellers 1 March - 26 June 2021 shows vaccinated travellers posing a very low risk.

NSW Epi report (https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Pages/weekly-reports.aspx)

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/996x697/7916174c_7bb6_4684_89ea_795ab87e4362_5321dafb23e4b6a2044da4d 8516a1b5f279b04a4.jpeg
You can't draw that conclusion because you don't know what percentage of travellers were fully vaccinated.

That 11 fully vaccinated people tested positive out of a total of 456 positive results from all sources (fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated and unvaccinated) tells you nothing about the efficacy of vaccination in preventing infection. You need to know how many were in the total population of fully vaccinated people to determine whether 11 cases is significant. I can't find that data in the full report.

[aviation_enthus]

You can't draw that conclusion because you don't know what percentage of travellers were fully vaccinated.

That 11 fully vaccinated people tested positive out of a total of 456 positive results from all sources (fully vaccinated, partially vaccinated and unvaccinated) tells you nothing about the efficacy of vaccination in preventing infection. You need to know how many were in the total population of fully vaccinated people to determine whether 11 cases is significant. I can't find that data in the full report.

That’s probably because Australia considers vaccination irrelevant in regards to COVID.

I’ve read plenty of comments from people going through hotel quarantine and they’ve told the staff they are fully vaccinated. The general response is “so?”.

It would be useful to at least collect the data on how many are vaccinated.

No need for a “pilot program” of home quarantine either. Plenty of real world data exists to show the low risk of transmission from vaccinated arrivals.

Taiwan even reports a 98% compliance rate for its quarantine system (tracking location via a mobile app).

Even if we still put arrivals in a hotel, at least raising the limits on fully vaccinated arrivals would be a good start! (Just put them in a “clean” hotel, eg fully vaccinated only)

[jrfsp]

Cases have further deteriorated overnight since 8pm. See you in September Sydney.

Unless there is a tightening of restrictions, Sept could be ambitious

[Foxxster]

Unless there is a tightening of restrictions, Sept could be ambitious
no year specified… 2022 ? 2023 ?

[MickG0105]

It would be useful to at least collect the data on how many are vaccinated.

Yes, it would.

[glekichi]

Someone tell me if I've got this completely wrong, but;

If the vaccine works and you get exposed to the virus you're still possibly going to give a positive PCR result as they can pick up the virus RNA even after its been defeated.
Even the governments seem to be ignoring this in their consideration of PCR results - the PCR doesn't mean the virus is still live.

[Ladloy]

All hail Comrade Gladys

[PoppaJo]

Looks like it’s taking off in the South West. Ring fence it for heavens sake and kill it.

You cannot rely on the people in those specific areas to follow the rules. She is pleading with them do obey the rules please please please. They are largely the great unwashed and have no idea.

[dr dre]

Unless there is a tightening of restrictions, Sept could be ambitious

It she would’ve just taken it seriously rather than boast about how NSW can handle anything better than any other state.

I know McGowan is loathed here but 3 quick lockdowns and it’s over in a few days. 12 days in total. Now Sydney is looking at 21 days minimum. That’s if the people of Sydney actually take the restrictions seriously. I saw pictures from Bondi Beach over the last week, it was packed and almost no one wearing a mask even if just strolling or sitting. In Perth it is almost unseen to see a person without a mask outside during lockdown unless they are doing heavy exercise.

You can blame the government for their slow acting, but the people’s lax approach to taking this seriously is equally contributing to their situation.

[SOPS]

Gladys and NSW was the Gold Standard that the rest of us should follow… until it wasn’t. She has lost control of this.

It really appears that lots of Sydney is just not listening and/or just don’t understand what lockdown means. (Especially in some ‘multi cultural’ areas.)

This could go on for weeks.

(I for one, think that Mark has done a good job.)

[dr dre]

And for the “Covid isn’t really that bad” brigade:

347 cases in this NSW outbreak
37 in hospital (over 10%)
14 of those under 55 (40%)
7 in the ICU, one of those in their 30s.

Yes, vaccination will establish a herd immunity and get things running back to normal but we just don’t have enough vaccinated yet to do this.

[jrfsp]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-07/nsw-delta-variant-may-never-be-controlled/100273956

Questions as to whether NSW will return to covid zero status. I do wonder if this is purposeful by the state gov, based on the current restrictions blind Freddy can see that it wont be enough to go back to covid zero.

If this is the case it will have serious implications for domestic (and TT) travel, with NSW essentially cut off from the rest of the country until the vaccination reaches the required threshold (Whatever that % is).

[Stickshift3000]

Someone tell me if I've got this completely wrong, but;

If the vaccine works and you get exposed to the virus you're still possibly going to give a positive PCR result as they can pick up the virus RNA even after its been defeated.
Even the governments seem to be ignoring this in their consideration of PCR results - the PCR doesn't mean the virus is still live.

There are NO tests out there that can determine if the virus is viable ('alive'), or to differentiate between viable and non viable virus particles. The labs and public health authorities understand this.

PCR replicates a piece of the virus's DNA many times, so that if it's present in a sample (swab, blood sample etc) the DNA can then be detected by traditional lab techniques.

It's debatable whether viruses are living organisms; most of science deems them not to be:
https://www.newscientist.com/question/are-viruses-alive/

[SOPS]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-07/nsw-delta-variant-may-never-be-controlled/100273956

Questions as to whether NSW will return to covid zero status. I do wonder if this is purposeful by the state gov, based on the current restrictions blind Freddy can see that it wont be enough to go back to covid zero.

If this is the case it will have serious implications for domestic (and TT) travel, with NSW essentially cut off from the rest of the country until the vaccination reaches the required threshold (Whatever that % is).


Did you read the third dot point in the article above?

She is talking about life after October…. I think she is warming NSW up for something. I could we wrong of course.

[neville_nobody]

I for one, think that Mark has done a good job.

Sure but at what price? You can argue endlessly about which strategy is best but the other States need to realise how big Sydney is and you can't just keep grinding to halt every time someone sneezes.

If they just let it go, it could bankrupt an airline or both as all the other states won't open up to them.

[jrfsp]

Sure but at what price? You can argue endlessly about which strategy is best but the other States need to realise how big Sydney is and you can't just keep grinding to halt every time someone sneezes.

If they just let it go, it could bankrupt an airline or both as all the other states won't open up to them.

I think the two majors could cope with NSW out of action IF all the other states are open to each other. The biggest loser would be SYD - the buyout offer could be very timely.

The other potential loser would be the ACT, who are basically lumped in with NSW.

[SOPS]

Sure but at what price? You can argue endlessly about which strategy is best but the other States need to realise how big Sydney is and you can't just keep grinding to halt every time someone sneezes.

If they just let it go, it could bankrupt an airline or both as all the other states won't open up to them.


Can you please explain the point you are trying to make. In your fist paragraph you say “ you can’t shut down Sydney”. In your second, you say, “ if they just let it go it could bankrupt an airline. “

Which is it? Lockdown or let it rip? You can’t have both.

[KRviator]

Nope you’ve read it wrong.

From the 1st March
- 458 total cases
- 11 of the those cases were in fully vaccinated travellers
- 405 were unvaccinated.

If you consider that as a percentage of arrivals:
- 1st March to 26th June (15.5 weeks)
- NSW takes 3000 per week
- 46,500 arrivals.

So those 11 FULLY VACCINATED positive cases represent 0.0002% of all arrivals.Yep, I'll cop that and I agree my figures were wrong.But don’t let some facts get in the way of your irrational fear.It's only irrational if it isn't based on fact.

Given the response of various state Premiers so far to relatively insignificant numbers of cases, when viewed against population, I'd argue it is completely rational! Take McGowan, no local cases in my LGA since time began, but still locked out - and based on his CHO's 'irrational fear' it doesn't look like I]'ll be going back to work anytime soon. So much for science-driven decisions. The complete lockout is nothing more than scaremongering and political point scoring.

I know McGowan is loathed here but 3 quick lockdowns and it’s over in a few days. 12 days in total. Now Sydney is looking at 21 days minimum.I wouldn't bother comparing WA to NSW, look at how many each state has taken in international arrivals, both raw data and as percentages of the Australian population. WA doesn't hold a candle to NSW in that regard. In the period April 20-April21 (last month for which figures are available) (https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/webmonthlyairportapril2021.xlsx) Perth took 35,896 international arrivals. Sydney took 165,018. And let's not forget McGowan is often the first to whine about the number of arrivals, agreeing to take 1000/week, and being pretty quick to drop it to 500-odd if something happens he doesn't like. Fewer arrivals = lower risk = fewer outbreaks = fewer lockdowns and the smug asrehole has the gall to say "look how good we are, everyone should learn from us!":yuk:

Sure but at what price? You can argue endlessly about which strategy is best but the other States need to realise how big Sydney is and you can't just keep grinding to halt every time someone sneezes.

If they just let it go, it could bankrupt an airline or both as all the other states won't open up to them.That'd be an interesting argument if Gladys wanted to play that game. Declare "No more international arrivals via Sydney - you other Premiers want Aussies to come home, you step up and carry the load, we've got our own issues" and just see how long it took for other states to give in. Melbourne could pick up a bit of the slack, Anna-Stayaway would probably baulk at it. But how long until one of the other premiers blinked in the game of chicken? Or forced ScoMo's hand should QF/VA/Rex go to the wall with interstate travel at a fraction of what it should be?

[Fonz121]

Personally I think it’s great that it’s out in the community bubbling along. Everyone needs to lose the elimination mindset, it’s not going to happen. The only way restrictions get relaxed is when the general public finally accept that a Covid case is not ‘Breaking News’.

Additionally, every single person in this country (over 18) has now had a chance to vaccinate. If you are that worried about getting Covid you can get the vaccine available. If not, you can have your own private lockdown where you work from home and get everything delivered.

[neville_nobody]

The problem is how the other States will react if NSW just let it go. That is going to cause major headaches for the airlines.

The States went to Canberra and agreed that lockdowns were the last resort. McGowan walked out and said that his definition was different so WA will be carrying on as they were and locking down early. We could very easily be at gridlock again if the country can't agree on a strategy.

[jrfsp]

The problem is how the other States will react if NSW just let it go. That is going to cause major headaches for the airlines.

The States went to Canberra and agreed that lockdowns were the last resort. McGowan walked out and said that his definition was different so WA will be carrying on as they were and locking down early. We could very easily be at gridlock again if the country can't agree on a strategy.

The premiers agreed to lockdowns being the last resort as of "Phase 3 or 4" of scotty's cunning plan. Essentially when vaccination has reached that magic number (which is yet to be disclosed).....we are nowhere near that at the moment.

I cant see any other state doing anything other than covid zero until that point. The economic damage would be too great (greater than that of a lockdown anyhow).

[kingRB]

And for the “Covid isn’t really that bad” brigade:

347 cases in this NSW outbreak
37 in hospital (over 10%)
14 of those under 55 (40%)
7 in the ICU, one of those in their 30s.


oh totally - 347 is an amazing data set to back that position and invalidate all the rest of the data collected around the world that says otherwise.
Maybe you'd like to expand on the metabolic health of these people who've been struck down with this plague to end all plagues. Or didn't news.com.au go into that?

[blubak]

Gladys and NSW was the Gold Standard that the rest of us should follow… until it wasn’t. She has lost control of this.

It really appears that lots of Sydney is just not listening and/or just don’t understand what lockdown means. (Especially in some ‘multi cultural’ areas.)

This could go on for weeks.

(I for one, think that Mark has done a good job.)
What you describe has been the problem almost everywhere,the minority(in most cases) that thumb their noses at requests to stay home yet complain the loudest when things get worse or the ones who say they dont understand yet have no issues undetstanding how to apply for benefits.
She probably should have imposed a harsher lockdown but as i have said before,governments are dammed if they do & dammed if they dont.

[mattyj]

Telling people to stay home or shelter in place is worthless and a waste of time..if you’re going to declare some people “essential workers” and require them to work..then they are exposed. Also they’re usually the poor and minorities filling those jobs, delivering your food, stacking toilet paper on shelves, driving the bus..

​​​​​….usually once their shifts are finished they go back to the most crowded, poorest ventilated and most unhealthy accommodation with their extended families where all respiratory viruses hide.

a half arsed lockdown is worse than no lockdown

[aviation_enthus]

Telling people to stay home or shelter in place is worthless and a waste of time..if you’re going to declare some people “essential workers” and require them to work..then they are exposed. Also they’re usually the poor and minorities filling those jobs, delivering your food, stacking toilet paper on shelves, driving the bus..

​​​​​….usually once their shifts are finished they go back to the most crowded, poorest ventilated and most unhealthy accommodation with their extended families where all respiratory viruses hide.

a half arsed lockdown is worse than no lockdown

What you have just described is why “the advice” pre 2019 was “lockdowns are a last resort”. Because multiple pre-pandemic studies (Eg done with a clear mind), had overwhelming shown lockdowns are bad for poor people every time.

That’s also why countries like Indonesia can not follow the same steps as say Australia to combat the virus.

Even in Australia, there is plenty of evidence starting to show up that the majority of people affected by lockdowns are poor/lower middle class, generally in casual or part time employment, in hospitality, retail or other “people” industries (ie shut during lockdowns).

People on higher income are generally more able to WFH, hence they’re happy to continue lockdowns.

Lockdowns are a bad policy. Especially “snap” or “circuit breaker” lockdowns that contribute to business uncertainty.

[WingNut60]

Lockdowns are a bad policy. Especially “snap” or “circuit breaker” lockdowns that contribute to business uncertainty.

And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.
Maybe not in tatoo parlours and gyms but businesses that actually produce something.

[aviation_enthus]

And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.

WA had what, 180 odd days without a case after April 2020? You can hardly link WA with evidence against lockdowns. The effects on WA will be more like a slow burn, inflation, lack of skilled workers etc.

Lock at the effect of the “circuit breaker” lockdown in Victoria for actual evidence.

WA is it’s own special place.

[WingNut60]

.......................... You can hardly link WA with evidence against lockdowns. ..............

And yet, in the 5687 posts above yours, that is EXACTLY what has been asserted multiple times.

[Bend alot]

WA is a Lockout place NOT a Lockdown place.

The economy effects are more comparable to Australia's Lockout we have with the rest of the World. There have been some gang buster sectors in Australia's economy during our Lockout, but that depends on what glass you have been given.

[SOPS]

https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/liverpool-canterburybankstown-fairfield-facing-further-coronavirus-restrictions-as-cases-spike/news-story/d0680493900d2c996882ee6e8be1d844

Does not seem the message is getting through.

[highflyer40]

Personally I think it’s great that it’s out in the community bubbling along. Everyone needs to lose the elimination mindset, it’s not going to happen. The only way restrictions get relaxed is when the general public finally accept that a Covid case is not ‘Breaking News’.

Additionally, every single person in this country (over 18) has now had a chance to vaccinate. If you are that worried about getting Covid you can get the vaccine available. If not, you can have your own private lockdown where you work from home and get everything delivered.

Seriously? Every adult in Australia has been offered the vaccine? Yet only 8% of Australians are fully vaccinated? Either you are the world capitol of anti-vaxxers or I think you may be mistaken on your statement.

[aviation_enthus]

And yet, in the 5687 posts above yours, that is EXACTLY what has been asserted multiple times.

Lockdowns (Victoria/NSW)

NOT

Lockouts/border controls. (WA)

There is a massive difference between the two!!

[Fonz121]

Seriously? Every adult in Australia has been offered the vaccine? Yet only 8% of Australians are fully vaccinated? Either you are the world capitol of anti-vaxxers or I think you may be mistaken on your statement.

Deadly serious. If you are motivated and don't believe everything Jeanette Young tells you, then you can book in right now for a vaccine. I did and I'm definitely on the younger side.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1441/20210708_083043_8d875dee6c22079cb31335171fa8d1c2bcac3f80.jpg

[KRviator]

And yet, business confidence in W.A. is the highest seen for decades.
Maybe not in tatoo parlours and gyms but businesses that actually produce something.But why is that? Because WA residents can't go to Bali for their holidays, they can't go interstate unless they want to risk McGowan closing the border while they're away, so they're forced to holiday intrastate. It isn't voluntary - as history shows... Not to mention WA has reaped the benefit of surging iron ore prices - which at almost $220USD a tonne are giving one hell of a topup to the state's coffers, with prices almost tripling from the start of the pandemic.

Equating state business confidence solely to the lack of lockdowns, without recognizing the role WA's border restrictions play is disingenuous and doesn't reflect the whole story...

[WingNut60]

Equating state business confidence solely to the lack of lockdown..........
Did I say that? I don't think so.

[Gnadenburg]

You can think of it as being ignorant of those overseas or as it being unAustralian, but while I've always subscribed to the concept of 'doing the right thing', I don't believe it should be done 'at any cost'. That's what people are suggesting. "Reopen the borders, bring our people home, let them quarantine at home, it'll be fine!'

Except it won't be.The PPE for the staff to process you. The ongoing & repetitive cleaning of the vehicles used to transport you. The overtime and diversion of GD police to monitor the respective HQ sites. The salaries of the security guards who monitor the corridors, government-sponsored repatriation flights, if you can get one. And let's not forget, the hundreds of millions of dollars it costs your fellow Australian's when not if it gets out of HQ again, because some asreclown of a driver of the flightcrew who brought you over wasn't vaccinated, caught it, and spread the love throughout the eastern suburbs, or an UberEats driver tarried in the corridor delivering someone's dinner.

More returnee's = more flightcrew = more chance of it getting out, even if you quarantine at home!. Going back to pre-Covid flight numbers, which some here seem to be suggesting happen, will likely result in a similar number of flight & cabin crew in HQ as we have returning citizens now. And as we've proven so many times, HQ can't keep it contained, and that being the case, where is the reward for the additional risk?

You say you can quarantine at home. Fat chance of that. We have seen far too many examples of returning citizens, or even interstate travelers breaking out of the HQ system, the old couple who was reported to have triggered the northern beaches outbreak after they decided to go for lunch at the RSL, HQ guards getting it on with 'inmates', the bird who climbed down two balconies and broke a door to get out.... Face facts - people cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Vaccinated or not. Home quarantine or not. Most people will play by the rules but there will always be those that don't! And that's probably why home quarantine isn't even on their radar. Because sooner or later, someone will decide home-quarantine isn't all its' cracked up to be, will go to the shops and will spread it through the community. Being vaccinated simply means there is less risk of it happening.

If I read that right, 5% of those in that chart were vaccinated of some description, and still caught, or had, the pestilence.

If you apply that to the so-called magic figure of 30,000 overseas citizens, that's still 1,500 people coming home, to suggested home quarantine, with the virus. Even reducing it to the 2% reported to be fully vaccinated still gives you 600 people coming home with it. Whether that number will stay static or reduce as time goes on, I can't say. If it doesn't though, the Government will be knowingly importing Covid at a rate of roughly 4 cases per aircraft (assuming 200 pax), with the core belief that every one of those people will not pass it on to their housemates or family while they are in home quarantine.....Until we reach herd immunity or the vaccination target, I can't see that happening...

Stop being sensationalist. Bringing home fellow Australians is as moral a debate as why shut down our economy to protect many who will be dead soon anyways? That's the line you have taken. The cost of it? Or more likely, the cost to you? Not very nation building in a century that's going to need strength and resolve.

Repatriating Australians stimulate the economy at a time when the economic panacea of immigration is on hold.

You have no idea what goes on in hotel quarantine! Uber drivers don't deliver. And why the hell aren't transport staff vaccinated? Just as quarantine staff must be. The Fox Footy channel wasn't working in my hotel and it took a week to find a vaccinated technician. Stop making stuff up!

This brings me back to what are the risks of a COVID tested and COVID vaccinated fellow Australian repatriating, passing on COVID, to a COVID vaccinated, daily COVID tested, hotel quarantine staff member in PPE equipment? What are now the chances of community spillage? Near zero.

Wow! There's a big problem solved. The caveat being repatriating Australians lying about their vaccination status. This may be the case in the positive cases of NSW vaccinated returnees and it is easily countered by presenting legitimate vaccination evidence. I had to offer my vaccination status to the Vic Government who mixed me up with returnees from high risk countries.

The most frightening issue with COVID, is the common sense solutions, lost on those who would rather live in irrational fear.

[PoppaJo]

Western Australia Premier @MarkMcGowanMP (https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkMcGowanMP) has threatened an indefinite border closure with New South Wales until the virus has been “crushed and killed”.

The others will follow. She will basically be her own state with spread and open to nobody. However the people of that state will be able to move about the state I guess.

Alan is going to need more cash soon.

[ruprecht]

Western Australia Premier @MarkMcGowanMP (https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkMcGowanMP) has threatened an indefinite border closure with New South Wales until the virus has been “crushed and killed”.

The others will follow. She will basically be her own state with spread and open to nobody. However the people of that state will be able to move about the state I guess.

Alan is going to need more cash soon.

I assume Mark McGowan would be happy for all available vaccines in the country to go to NSW at the moment?

NSW should concentrate on its own citizens now, including limiting repatriation to NSW residents only for the duration of this lockdown. If WA wishes to repatriate WA residents then they can make that decision.

[Torukmacto]

Controlling the masses with fear . Politics 101 . Take your life back , protect your family and friends and be part of the solution to get life back to a new normal . Get vaccinated!

[Icarus2001]

The most frightening issue with COVID, is the common sense solutions, lost on those who would rather live in irrational fear.

I think that summarises this thread very well.

[Cafe City]

Controlling the masses with fear . Politics 101 . Take your life back , protect your family and friends and be part of the solution to get life back to a new normal . Get vaccinated!

That’s been my feeling for a while now.
Covid has presented an opportunity for these politicians to get what they have always wanted- Power.
Let’s face it, It’s their whole raison d’être. They’re certainly not in the job for altruistic motives and few have any practical life skills to be able to lead with any credibility.
Think for yourselves and take some personal responsibility.
These clowns are leading us on wild goose chase.

[The The]

I assume Mark McGowan would be happy for all available vaccines in the country to go to NSW at the moment?

NSW should concentrate on its own citizens now, including limiting repatriation to NSW residents only for the duration of this lockdown. If WA wishes to repatriate WA residents then they can make that decision.

I'd be more than happy to see vaccination focused where most needed. Each state keep very limited Pfizer to continue front line or vulnerable vaccinations and pour the rest into Sydney. Get the population of Sydney vaccinated as soon as possible with Pfizer which only has 3wks between jabs.

[jrfsp]

I'd be more than happy to see vaccination focused where most needed. Each state keep very limited Pfizer to continue front line or vulnerable vaccinations and pour the rest into Sydney. Get the population of Sydney vaccinated as soon as possible with Pfizer which only has 3wks between jabs.

There would be blue murder if this happened and would essentially spell the end of any re-election of scomo - i cant see it happening

[PoppaJo]

The PM just slip something much harder is coming for Sydney. Go Hard Gladys and let’s get it over and done with. Stop believing your people will do the right thing.

[blubak]

The PM just slip something much harder is coming for Sydney. Go Hard Gladys and let’s get it over and done with. Stop believing your people will do the right thing.
I just listened to her news confetence from earlier today,many dont believe covid is real & that of course is an entitlement of every person however for the sake of everyone(believers or conspiracy theorists) isnt it now time to do as she asks & comply for the sake & best outcome of everyone.
She will be blasted for going harder next week by many yet on the other hand she is being ridiculed right now by the people she is trying to appease & those are the ones using any excuse to live completely as normal.
I dont live in nsw & last year i was jealous of all the freedom they had but for anyone who thinks a long lockdown is not a reality,think again,you do not want to be part of it,just comply & think of everyone-not just yourself.

[mattyj]

“Just comply”


listen to yourself :yuk:

[SOPS]

“Just comply”


listen to yourself :yuk:
And what do you suggest, Matty?

[Mafortion]

Deadly serious. If you are motivated and don't believe everything Jeanette Young tells you, then you can book in right now for a vaccine. I did and I'm definitely on the younger side.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1441/20210708_083043_8d875dee6c22079cb31335171fa8d1c2bcac3f80.jpg
The information from that clinic is not exactly true. Evidence suggests that having an AstraZeneca shot, followed by Pfizer, provides a stronger response than two AstraZeneca doses.

[dirtyd]

And what do you suggest, Matty?
As long as there is covid there is no answer to suggest.
The borders will remain closed until covid is eradicated like smallpox.
Asking when borders will reopen is like listening to a child asking if we are there yet every 30 seconds.
Are you really that much worse off than you were 16 months ago?
It would be such a shame if covid entered the country now after so much sacrifice so until it’s stamped out and no one can be infected, borders will be shut.

[aviation_enthus]

As long as there is covid there is no answer to suggest.
The borders will remain closed until covid is eradicated like smallpox.
Asking when borders will reopen is like listening to a child asking if we are there yet every 30 seconds.
Are you really that much worse off than you were 16 months ago?
It would be such a shame if covid entered the country now after so much sacrifice so until it’s stamped out and no one can be infected, borders will be shut.

Eradicated? Hahahaha! Oh dear that was a good laugh.

No other country on earth expects it to be eradicated.

“The first smallpox immunization was created by Edward Jenner in 1796 (https://www.who.int/csr/disease/smallpox/vaccines/en/). But it took more than 200 years and a worldwide vaccination program to eradicate the disease”

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/65304-smallpox.html

[Green.Dot]

‘Straya to get 1 million Pfizer doses a week from July 19.

Hang in there, ignore the nay-sayers, guaranteed* the game should change in a very good way soon enough.

*a guarantee is not a guarantee.

[MickG0105]

The information from that clinic is not exactly true. Evidence suggests that having an AstraZeneca shot, followed by Pfizer, provides a stronger response than two AstraZeneca doses.
You need to be mindful of the fact that the recently published Com-COV Study (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3874014) notes that the increased reactogenicity seen in the Az-Pfizer group when compared to the Az-Az group may be related to the prime-boost interval of only 28 days for both groups. The recommended interval for Az-Az is 84 days. The study group will be publishing the results for the recommended 84 day interval Az-Az group once they are to hand.

You're correct though in that the study shows that, on the face of it, you can mix vaccines. All the usual caveats for short-term, small group (463 adults ≥ 50 years) studies applies though. This was not the equivalent of a Phase III trial.

[mattyj]

Great Britain has something like 85% vaccination rate and a 600% increase in Covid cases in the last month..and giving up on mitigation. Hopefully their British version of the vaccine is keeping hospitalisations down but eradication will never happen..NEVER

[MickG0105]

Great Britain has something like 85% vaccination rate and a 600% increase in Covid cases in the last month..
I don't know where you get 85 percent from; as of two days ago the UK had 51.1 percent of the population fully vaccinated (68.3 percent had received at least one shot).

For the month of June the three day moving average of new cases actually rose by nearly 700 percent, from 3,262 to 22,700. Deaths, which should lag new cases by about 14 days, are also starting to tick up - up by about 500 percent for the month off a very low base of 3.

[mattyj]

Oh yeah it’s not the whole of uk..just England 1 shot

[Foxxster]

Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers have skyrocketed by 184 per cent in the past six months.

Disturbing new data from the Kids Helpline revealed the shocking statistic after Victoria was plunged into its fourth major Covid-19 lockdown in the past 12 months.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653

[Lead Balloon]

But all that and more is a price 'worth' paying, surely? All the economic numbers are great. Everyone should be 'living it up in lockdown' and relishing the increasing price of their home. And think of all the lives saved from C-19.

The end of the beginning of the response to the pandemic in Australia will come when an increasingly frustrated, desperate and disillusioned population finally says: "F*ck it. We're over this and we'll do what we want and you can fine and lock us up for as long as you like." I know people who've said they'd rather die than lose the business they've spent a lifetime building (including employing many people).

Sooner or later, someone's gonna have to put a price on the response and justify why that's worth paying in return for the lives saved from C-19. That price includes the increased suicides.

Hopefully it won't come to widespread refusal to comply. But what's the plan if the goals start overflowing with people who do refuse and burn their PINs?

Let's hope that Scotty from Marketing's announcement about millions of doses of Phyzer hitting the shores soon will overcome vaccine hesitancy and result in vaccination rates that he should have been facilitating around a year ago (along with proper quarantine facilities), and relaxation of restrictions.

[PoppaJo]

Right Ok, see you in 6 months Sydney.

[MickG0105]

Attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers have skyrocketed by 184 per cent in the past six months.

Disturbing new data from the Kids Helpline revealed the shocking statistic after Victoria was plunged into its fourth major Covid-19 lockdown in the past 12 months.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/mental-health/attempted-suicide-rates-among-victorian-teenagers-soar-by-184-per-cent-in-past-six-months-kids-helpline-reveals/news-story/db9d5136075a7c7edf4750a0391b0653
As is pretty typical these days when you find the primary source reporting (https://www.yourtown.com.au/media-centre/new-kids-helpline-data-reveals-spike-duty-care-interventions) you'll see that it does not match the subsequent secondary reporting in the media.

There most assuredly has not been a 184 percent increase in attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers at all. The 184 percent increase in Victoria was for 'duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people'. For starters, 'children and young people' is not just teenagers; it covers those aged between 5-25. As noted in the primary report, '75% of emergency interventions were for young people aged 13-18'.

Further 'duty of care interventions' includes but is not limited to emergency interventions relating to child abuse (these made up 31 percent of the interventions in Victoria) as well as interventions in response to an immediate intent to enact suicide (44 percent).

What the primary reporting does show is that there is a disparity between Victoria, and Queensland and New South Wales, with regards to the increase in duty of care interventions enacted over the six months from 1 December 2020 – 31 May 2021. During the six months covered Victoria had two lockdowns, their third and fourth, between 12-17 February and 27 May - 10 June (note that this lockdown just fell into the reporting period so its impact would be questionable). During the same period Queensland also had two shorter lockdowns, their second and third, between 8-11 January and 29 March - 1 April. New South Wales had no lockdowns during the period covered by the report but saw a not dissimilar increase in duty of care interventions to Queensland, up by 40 percent compared to Queensland's 46 percent increase.

Sitting below the reporting is of course the data and we don't seem to have access to that. A persistent concern with the Kids Helpline data is that they have a very low Call Answer Rate, typically less than 50 percent. When doing any form of comparative analysis on a state-by-state basis you would want to be satisfied that there wasn't biasing in the calls answered/abandoned by state.

[WingNut60]

As is pretty typical these days when you find the primary source reporting (https://www.yourtown.com.au/media-centre/new-kids-helpline-data-reveals-spike-duty-care-interventions) you'll see that it does not match the subsequent secondary reporting in the media.

There most assuredly has not been a 184 percent increase in attempted suicide rates among Victorian teenagers at all. The 184 percent increase in Victoria was for 'duty of care interventions enacted by Kids Helpline on behalf of children and young people'. For starters, 'children and young people' is not just teenagers; it covers those aged between 5-25. As noted in the primary report, '75% of emergency interventions were for young people aged 13-18'.
............

Wash your mouth out, Mick.
Don't you dare go spouting out facts and common sense on this thread.

[MickG0105]

Wash your mouth out, Mick.
Don't you dare go spouting out facts and common sense on this thread.
Mea culpa. Whatever was I thinking?! Ah, there you go - thinking - maybe that was the problem.

[StudentInDebt]

Mea culpa. Whatever was I thinking?! Ah, there you go - thinking - maybe that was the problem.
Lost art nowadays it seems.

[Foxxster]

mkay. Always glad for facts to be flushed out.

[Clare Prop]

Beware the lurking variable...

[galdian]

Beware the lurking variable...

Is a lurking variable in any way related to a creeping assumption??

[Ladloy]

Where are all the Dan haters now? What do they have to say about Gladys?

[Icarus2001]

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/07/coronavirus-covid-19-at-a-glance-8-july-2021.pdf


I will bite. Gladys is STILL doing a much better job than Dan. Check out the numbers.

[Turnleft080]

Where are all the Dan haters now? What do they have to say about Gladys?
Here is one. Back from the living dead. Dan must of spiked Glady's drink when they got on the beers.
Remember the tv show "The Comedy Company" ( the last time we laughed) looks like the Premiers and their CHOs are making series 2.
It used to be a weekly show, the new version is a daily show.

[SOPS]

Mark McGowan has just said that anyone from WA that is in NSW should come home now. He said that the hard border with NSW is about to get harder.

Sounds like no one from NSW will be allowed in.. no exemptions at all. Hope I am wrong.

[Bend alot]

Mark McGowan has just said that anyone from WA that is in NSW should come home now. He said that the hard border with NSW is about to get harder.

Sounds like no one from NSW will be allowed in.. no exemptions at all. Hope I am wrong.
He does seem to get his medical advice from his Kellogg's morning brain farts. (can be quoted as such)

He has the consistency of extremums diarrhoea.

[mattyj]

Everything improved in Victoria when Dan fell down the stairs and took some time off

[SOPS]

He does seem to get his medical advice from his Kellogg's morning brain farts. (can be quoted as such)

He has the consistency of extremums diarrhoea.

I assume you don’t think there is a problem in NSW??

[Green.Dot]

Where are all the Dan haters now?

Still here buddy. Bring back Merlino.

[KRviator]

I assume you don’t think there is a problem in NSW??There isn't a problem in "New South Wales".

There is a very definite problem in "Sydney" and as much as McGowan would like to believe that makes up most of the state, a great many people still live outside it.

Broken Hill is closer to Adelaide than Sydney, Ballina closer to Brisbane, and Albury closer to Melbourne. None of whose residents would fly via Sydney to get to Perth, but they are locked out by default, which is nothing more than a cheap political scaremongering and in can in no way be supported by "health advice".

[Foxxster]

Here is a Harvard professors view.

https://youtu.be/8OLoqg22M7M

[machtuk]

In a nut shell there's two sides to this debacle, you either agree wth the lunatics or you don't, pick one and live by it!

[SHVC]

International travel is looking good I’m 2022 hahahahahahaha. 2024 if we’re lucky. Can’t even agree on a strategy to keep our internal borders open. I’m Glad Gladys is taking the current approach and not “falling in to line” as the emperor of the West calls it.

[dr dre]

I’m Glad Gladys is taking the current approach and not “falling in to line” as the emperor of the West calls it.

This is Berejiklian yesterday (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/09/nsw-covid-update-stronger-restrictions-for-sydney-as-gladys-berejiklian-flags-lockdown-extension):Berejiklian warned unless there was a turnaround, the lockdown could be extended beyond the three weeks.

“Unless there is a dramatic change, unless there is a dramatic turnaround in the numbers, I can’t see how we would be in a position to ease restrictions by next Friday,” she said.

The NSW premier talked down health minister Brad Hazzard’s earlier comments that the state might have to learn to live with the virus, and said case numbers would need to be as close to zero as possible before lockdown would end.

“No state or nation or any country on the planet can live with the Delta variant when our vaccination rates are so low. So please, do not think that the NSW government thinks we can live with this when our rate of vaccination is only at 9%,” she said.

“When you only have 9% of your community vaccinated, opening up before you get as close to that zero number as possible, it means you would subject thousands and thousands to hospitalisation and death.”

“I don’t want anyone to feel like that. But if you are not doing the right thing, please know that we will have to have the law come down on you, because the simple fact is, people doing the wrong thing means that all of us suffer,” she said.

I don’t see how that differs from the basic approach every other state is taking or is “learning to live with” the virus.

[Transition Layer]

I assume you don’t think there is a problem in NSW??

From the loads I’ve seen, there’s probably less than 200 people a day flying into WA from NSW at the moment, with all being tested and going into quarantine.

So I’d say the current measures are more than enough and anything more is a gross over reaction from McClown. But that’s how he operates, so who knows.

[SHVC]

If she followed the approach of other states she would lock everyone up 5 days no movement just stop living. She is still keeping a balance. All that’s affected is a few coffee shops that will bounce back and tourism/aviation which will bounce back. Rest of the world has moved on so should we.

[MickG0105]

Here is a Harvard professors view.

https://youtu.be/8OLoqg22M7M
Worth watching but probably needs to be tempered by noting that Professor Kulldorff is a co-author of the Great Barrington Declaration, essentially a push for natural herd immunity through community spread with Focussed Protection for the vulnerable. Kulldorff, a Swede, backed Sweden's broadly Focussed Protection approach to managing COVID-19 and seems to remain wedded to that style of management.

Kulldorff routinely gives out-and-out nonsense oxygen by endorsing or spreading it on social media. His latest foray into the twilight zone is circulating lockdownsceptics.org's hysteria about New Zealand hospitals being 'flooded' with children suffering respiratory illness because lockdowns prevented them from acquiring general immunities through socialising.

The facts of the matter are that there has been an outbreak of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) centred on Wellington, New Zealand. RSV is typically very common in the cooler/colder months and generally affects infants up to two years of age (older children and adults can be affected but most just register it as a cold). RSV infections in New Zealand had been at record lows coming into this outbreak, 98 percent below normal levels. There had been a similar near absence of RSV in Australia over the last 18 months which ended with a spike in March-April this year. Notably in Australia the RSV surges started in New South Wales and Western Australia; two states that had not used lockdowns (as opposed to lockouts) anywhere near as widely as other states during the period prior to the March-April 2021 RSV outbreaks.

The Wellington outbreak is thought to be linked to the opening of travel under the Trans-Tasman Bubble.

[Ladloy]

If she followed the approach of other states she would lock everyone up 5 days no movement just stop living. She is still keeping a balance. All that’s affected is a few coffee shops that will bounce back and tourism/aviation which will bounce back. Rest of the world has moved on so should we.
yeah lots of balance.....

[WingNut60]

..................... Notably in Australia the RSV surges started in New South Wales and Western Australia; two states that had not used lock-downs (as opposed to lockouts) anywhere near as widely as other states..........

Not sure how you work that one out Mick.
WA has had five lock-downs (I think), four of them being short, sharp lock-downs.

If people are restricted to their homes except where they cannot work from home or allowed out for shopping for essentials, restricted exercise, etc, etc. then I, and Mark, call it a lock-down.
What makes you think that that is not a lock-down? What criteria has not been met?

[dr dre]

Here is a Harvard professors view.


His views are an outlier. He’s still pushing the Swedish Herd Immunity idea that the Swedes themselves admitted was a failure. His hasn’t presented numbers or studies on Delta, just some dismissive sentences, there have been studies printed with data showing Delta leads to an 85% rise in hospitalisations (https://www.bioworld.com/articles/508183-sars-cov-2-delta-variant-driving-rise-in-hospitalizations-scotland-study), and somewhat more infectious (https://aci.health.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/critical-intelligence-unit/sars-cov-2-variants) than Alpha. But these are amongst the unvaccinated, and the aforementioned professor also has some anti-vaxxer views. He called for vaccinations to be stopped for young people but then thought it find for them to contract the virus naturally.

Plus Sky News Outsiders? Of all the nutjob Sky News After Dark presenters those guys could qualify as the most nutty, they are still pushing stolen US election conspiracy theories months after the event. Just red meat to attract lunatics.

[dr dre]

If she followed the approach of other states she would lock everyone up 5 days no movement just stop living. She is still keeping a balance. All that’s affected is a few coffee shops that will bounce back and tourism/aviation which will bounce back. Rest of the world has moved on so should we.

The lockdown is costing $2 billion a week. It’s predicted to extend weeks, even months beyond the start. The other states that went into a short lockdown immediately lasted 4/5 days. And now they’re out of it.

It’s more than just a “few coffee shops” affected.....

EDIT: Sorry $1 billion a week. It’s still a massive hit on the economy

[WingNut60]

The lockdown is costing $2 billion a week. It’s predicted to extend weeks, even months beyond the start. The other states that went into a short lockdown immediately lasted 4/5 days. And now they’re out of it.

It’s more than just a “few coffee shops” affected.....
And McGowan has caught never-ending derision from the east, notably Beryl & associates, for "locking up the whole state over just one or two cases" when he should have been following Beryl's Diamond Standard.
Those diamonds are starting to look like glass.

[MickG0105]

Not sure how you work that one out Mick.
WA has had five lock-downs (I think), four of them being short, sharp lock-downs.

If people are restricted to their homes except where they cannot work from home or allowed out for shopping for essentials, restricted exercise, etc, etc. then I, and Mark, call it a lock-down.
What makes you think that that is not a lock-down? What criteria has not been met?
Yes, you're right, Western Australia has had a number of short lockdowns.

What I should have said is that most of them - the ones in April, May and June 2021 - occurred subsequent to the March-April respiratory syncytial virus outbreak and therefore could not have been causal or contributory. I've tweaked that in the original post now.

[Torukmacto]

No one in NSW hospitals with covid 19 has been fully vaccinated.

[Ladloy]

And here we are again. 50 new cases, 20 odd in the community. 14k people in iso. 16 in ICU, including a teenager. Hospitalisation rate just under 2%

[jrfsp]

I wouldnt be surprised if VIC / QLD close the entire border soon.

I cannot fathom why GB wont close non essential businesses.....its a no brainer....

[Foxxster]

No one in NSW hospitals with covid 19 has been fully vaccinated.

only about 9% of the population fully vaccinated.

[mattyj]

The RSV virus is most certainly not minor in NZ..our health system is fairly parlous at the best of times which was the reason for our strict lockdowns in the first place. There is dozens of infant or preschoolers in hospital and over a thousand reported cases nationwide. It’s almost certainly as a result of reduced immunity levels because of Covid mitigation strategies. There’s always a price to be paid for thumbing your nose at the Gods of the Copybook Headings

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dozens-of-children-today-battling-respiratory-syncytial-virus-in-hospital-intensive-care-units/EDXQD7J7IHDURN6PHPIW6SNQ7Q/

[DirectAnywhere]

Hospitalisation rate just under 2%

Horses&^t. Hospitalisation rate is closer to 10% at the moment. 47 hospitalised out of about 500 active cases. 16 in ICU, five ventilated.

Recovery rate is about 50% post ventilation. People will die in the coming days. It's inevitable with these numbers. The only positive is that it might refocus attention on just how dangerous COVID is, particularly when compared with the very low risk associated with vaccination.

[Ladloy]

Horses&^t. Hospitalisation rate is closer to 10% at the moment. 47 hospitalised out of about 500 active cases. 16 in ICU, five ventilated.

Recovery rate is about 50% post ventilation. People will die in the coming days. It's inevitable with these numbers. The only positive is that it might refocus attention on just how dangerous COVID is, particularly when compared with the very low risk associated with vaccination.
ah yep sorry. Under 2% in ICU, as it's not the total hospitalisation. My mistake.

[SOPS]

Victoria has just issued a ‘ Come Home Now ‘ message to people in NSW. It seems they are about to lock out NSW.