All borders to reopen. [Archive] - Page 24

Transition Layer

10th Jul 2021, 06:43

I can’t believe the rest of the country (including the State Premiers and media outlets) are sitting back and saying NSW should have done this or that sooner. Most States have gotten their response wrong at some point during the pandemic, with differing outcomes. Quarantine leaks due to poor hotel choices, unnecessary lockdowns over single cases, poor or non-existant contact tracing etc etc.

As a country we have done the same thing and looked at other countries around the globe and think we know best. There is no playbook for this, and geography and demographics play a big part in how this virus impacts a nation (or a state).

Comparing WA to NSW and McGowan pointing fingers at Gladys is not really helpful. The arrogance of the guy never ceases to amaze me. Anyone can lock down a sparsely populated city like Perth with minimal high density living and have quick results. Sydney is a different beast altogether!

SOPS

10th Jul 2021, 07:48

Why are places like IKEA still open? You can’t eat flat packs.

DirectAnywhere

10th Jul 2021, 07:58

Why are places like IKEA still open? You can’t eat flat packs.

Agreed. It's too late for a short, sharp lockdown now. They'll be left with a long, sharp lockdown as the only option. They tried to keep non-essential "essential" retail open and it's screwed them.

The list of locations visited by an infectious person on Thursday at Broadway reads like a choose-your-own adventure shopping expedition - Kmart, JB Hi Fi, Coles, ALDI, Harvey Norman and Liquorland.

Chris2303

10th Jul 2021, 08:02

Worth watching but probably needs to be tempered by noting that Professor Kulldorff is a co-author of the Great Barrington Declaration, essentially a push for natural herd immunity through community spread with Focussed Protection for the vulnerable. Kulldorff, a Swede, backed Sweden's broadly Focussed Protection approach to managing COVID-19 and seems to remain wedded to that style of management.

Kulldorff routinely gives out-and-out nonsense oxygen by endorsing or spreading it on social media. His latest foray into the twilight zone is circulating lockdownsceptics.org's hysteria about New Zealand hospitals being 'flooded' with children suffering respiratory illness because lockdowns prevented them from acquiring general immunities through socialising.

The facts of the matter are that there has been an outbreak of respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) centred on Wellington, New Zealand. RSV is typically very common in the cooler/colder months and generally affects infants up to two years of age (older children and adults can be affected but most just register it as a cold). RSV infections in New Zealand had been at record lows coming into this outbreak, 98 percent below normal levels. There had been a similar near absence of RSV in Australia over the last 18 months which ended with a spike in March-April this year. Notably in Australia the RSV surges started in New South Wales and Western Australia; two states that had not used lockdowns (as opposed to lockouts) anywhere near as widely as other states during the period prior to the March-April 2021 RSV outbreaks.

The Wellington outbreak is thought to be linked to the opening of travel under the Trans-Tasman Bubble.

Meanwhile in Seattle - not known for it's cold weather at the moment
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/cold-weather-virus-in-summer-baffles-docs-worries-parents/

mattyj

10th Jul 2021, 08:27

The Gods of the Copybook Headings

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

Rudyard Kipling 1919

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 08:43

Meanwhile in Seattle - not known for it's cold weather at the moment
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/cold-weather-virus-in-summer-baffles-docs-worries-parents/
They've been seeing the same thing in Texas - the CDC issued a bulletin on it back in mid-June.

In all those places - Texas, Seattle, New Zealand and here - RSV was largely or entirely absent during the typical 2020, 2020-21 winter season. Some regions of Texas reported a previously unheard of zero RSV cases during their fall/winter season. What do you reasonably expect from a transmissible respiratory illness when you start removing the prophylactic effect of masking and social distancing?

mattyj

10th Jul 2021, 09:00

The prophylactic for respiratory viruses is regular human contact

the other things you mentioned were not tried before and if we have the ability to learn from our foolishness..never again.

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 09:44

The prophylactic for respiratory viruses is regular human contact

Yes, of course, 'regular human contact' worked so well for the Spanish flu, the Asian flu, the Hong Kong flu, SARS, MERS, ... We could probably just rub dirt into it or try walking it off too.

the other things you mentioned were not tried before and if we have the ability to learn from our foolishness..never again.
The other things I mentioned were masks and social distancing. Pretty sure that they've been tried before ...
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/554x554/images_97__64b8a4ed7ce87210db84e46538eec40d9c593ed4.jpeg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/212x237/images_2__6d87986721a20d5e57e5ef5790cb62d09033cc29.png

mattyj

10th Jul 2021, 09:55

They all went away quicker than this one didn’t they? Stupid people are making this one stick around for ever

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 10:14

They all went away quicker than this one didn’t they?
I guess we'll have to see. The Spanish flu, the Hong Kong flu and SARS all took years to contain.

Lead Balloon

10th Jul 2021, 10:22

What is your estimate of the number of lives saved through the mitigation steps taken Australia, versus the cost of those steps, so far Mick?

Round thousands of lives and round billions in cost.

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 10:47

What is your estimate of the number of lives saved through the mitigation steps taken Australia, versus the cost of those steps, so far Mick?

Round thousands of lives and round billions in cost.
Back of the napkin, lives saved would have to run to around 47,500 - 48,000 (that's taking the US/UK deaths/million rate and applying to our population less the number of deaths we've had). What would you put the cost at? The $311 billion budget number for government relief and support? That'd be around $6.5 million per life saved in crude terms.

SHVC

10th Jul 2021, 10:50

This is the problem, lockdowns to most of you are the go to solution. F$&k that no lockdown let it go let’s experience what Italy and UK had ppl need to see what this virus can actually do. Make rest of Australia close to NSW costing 1 Billion a week let everyone see shop fronts boarded up The Ppl need to see hard reality. Ppl scared of getting vaccine because of BS they see on Facebook or Instagram without reading the real facts Then, the ppl will realize there is only one way out and that’s the jab. Plenty of AZ waiting to be used also Pfizer on the way. NSW could very well be the only state open to international by 2023 whilst rest of the country keep open close over 1 case of the next Delta variant.

This eradication rubbish by keep closing major city’s is not the solution 18 months on and we are in no better position then when this started.

SOPS

10th Jul 2021, 10:52

And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.

I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong.

Lead Balloon

10th Jul 2021, 11:06

Back of the napkin, lives saved would have to run to around 47,500 - 48,000 (that's taking the US/UK deaths/million rate and applying to our population less the number of deaths we've had). What would you put the cost at? The $311 billion budget number for government relief and support? That'd be around $6.5 million per life saved in crude terms.It certain that the cost is far (far) more than the 'government' - do you mean Federal alone? - budget for just 'relief and support'. Given your obviously well-informed and researched posts, I'm surprised you'd price it on that very narrow basis.

I reckon Australia's 'let it rip' rate would have been lower than the UK and USA, given demographic differences, but I'll accept your numbers for 'back of napkin' purposes.

(SOPS: It's "goes rogue", not "goes rouge". The latter is a cosmetic...)

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 11:35

It certain that the cost is far (far) more than the 'government' - do you mean Federal alone? - budget for just 'relief and support'. Given your obviously well-informed and researched posts, I'm surprised you'd price it on that very narrow basis.

I reckon Australia's 'let it rip' rate would have been lower than the UK and USA, given demographic differences, but I'll accept your numbers for 'back of napkin' purposes.

(SOPS: It's "goes rogue", not "goes rouge". The latter is a cosmetic...)
Yes, I just ran the Federal budget numbers there, at least in part for the sake of getting back to you in a reasonable timeframe. I'll have a further look at it over the next few days and look to roll in the state spending but there's at least a starting point there - we're going to be looking at something in the order of around $10+ million per life 'saved'.

The problem with trying to cost this thing beyond a fairly simple, fairly narrow basis is that calculations rapidly become complex. Even doing just lives saved versus federal government spending is a bit flaky in that it ignores the cost of a death, even if it's just in terms of whether there's a net cost/benefit to government (beyond that there's almost certainly a cost to the economy).

If you try to do it on a GDP basis then that needs to be comparative as well. We've doubtlessly spent more at the government level but our bounce-back in terms of GDP has been comparatively stellar. You'd have to ask if we were clocking over 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 deaths what would that look like in terms of business confidence, productivity, and the like.

As I said, as soon as you start breaking out from the super-simple approach the calculations get super-messy.

Turnleft080

10th Jul 2021, 11:35

And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.

I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong.
Yep, 35,000 cases overnight, with Wimbledon and the England v Italy Euro Cup Final tomorrow it should go ballistic. A Kent Dr that does regular Covid updates on his
Youtube channel predicting 100,000 cases in the next couple of weeks. What will Boris do? We will see how hospitalisation go as well. They are up to 50% vaccinations
so this could be an eye opener or a trial when we get to the 50% mark. Glady's is in dreamworld regarding her 80% figure.

Transition Layer

10th Jul 2021, 11:39

And I am waiting to see what happens when the UK ‘goes rouge’. Let’s all have a Summer Holiday.

I predict it’s going to be a disaster. I hope I’m wrong.

Gosh you really love to promulgate some fear mate. I reckon you’re going to need plastic sheets with all the bed wetting nonsense you sprout here.

Joker89

10th Jul 2021, 11:43

SOPS

10th Jul 2021, 11:43

SOPS

10th Jul 2021, 11:48

Gosh you really love to promulgate some fear mate. I reckon you’re going to need plastic sheets with all the bed wetting nonsense you sprout here.

We will wait and see.

MickG0105

10th Jul 2021, 12:06

No one seems to be able to explain why Singapore has 36 deaths from 60k cases.
My understanding is that they took a pre-emptive approach to hospitalisations. On top of their very aggressive early testing regime they pre-emptively hospitalised anyone 45 and over who returned a positive test regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms or not. You can probably add the relatively compliant culture to that.

mattyj

10th Jul 2021, 19:10

Because Asia is regularly exposed to seasonal coronaviruses they have a better innate immunity than European countries.

the days of mass casualties in overrun hospitals are over. Doctors have a good list of therapies now including corticosteroids, zinc and Vitamin D supplements, monoclonals..and other things..

they no longer send Covid patients home with useless remdesivir to wait it out.

Bend alot

10th Jul 2021, 20:26

Sweden with no lockdowns, schools mostly open, little mask wearing has had 14,000 deaths and a population of 10mil.

Population is centered in cities but unlike Australia most people live in apartments and not houses. So for 25 mil in Australia would have been 35-40k. If it behaves the same way.

However that doesn’t count those deaths that were of the old and at risk who were likely in their last days and wouldn’t survive a bad cold let alone a 2 year covid pandemic.

No one seems to be able to explain why Singapore has 36 deaths from 60k cases.
Your information on Sweden is VERY wrong!

Many many months ago "people" all said that Sweden had it right with "no lockdowns" but even Sweden admitted they had it wrong.

Schools were shut (most) and they had very stringent travel restrictions (no more than 2km from memory) for a long time - cell phone were used for tracking!

Life was not normal in Sweden.

Many countries have "low" death numbers v COVID cases, there are a number of ways to count the deaths I assume?

But more telling is there are many countries with little or no resources to fight COVID and 12/18 months later the villages and small towns are not noticeably devastated. Australia did some testing in PNG and that result was 50% COVID positive many months ago now.

Check_Thrust

10th Jul 2021, 23:23

Your information on Sweden is VERY wrong!
...
Schools were shut (most) and they had very stringent travel restrictions (no more than 2km from memory) for a long time - cell phone were used for tracking!

Life was not normal in Sweden.

Can you provide a reference for that? I have family in Sweden with school age children and not once have they mentioned those sorts of restrictions or events. At one point they wanted to keep their children home from school and government authorities threatened action against them if they did so (not really good for Australian's living there that can't easily return home).

For the record I (and my family) don't disagree that the Swedish government got things wrong. Neighbouring countries shut their borders for a while to Sweden and the Swedes also got to a point where they were asking their neighbours for assistance with hospital admissions as their own were approaching capacity.

Station Zero

11th Jul 2021, 00:36

My understanding is that they took a pre-emptive approach to hospitalisations. On top of their very aggressive early testing regime they pre-emptively hospitalised anyone 45 and over who returned a positive test regardless of whether they were exhibiting symptoms or not. You can probably add the relatively compliant culture to that.

About 55K or the around 63K total cases were from the workers dormitories here in Singapore. They are all mostly young and fit individuals. So do not fall into the age brackets/risk categories most associated with death as a result of the disease the virus causes.

As for the other about 8K which is made up of about 5K of overseas infections and 3K of community since the start of all this, a positive result means it is off to hospital for treatment or if deemed well enough a stay in a community care facility until clear of the virus.

Ladloy

11th Jul 2021, 01:36

Onya gladys

SOPS

11th Jul 2021, 02:00

Ok… the person was 90, however the first death has occurred. Police find people playing cards together.. and IKEA stays open. What wil it take, Gladys?

Joker89

11th Jul 2021, 02:20

IKEA has to stay open, what if you recently moved and need furniture, you expect people to live in an empty house with no bed, nothing to sleep on etc. not everyone in a city of 5 million is in the same situation.

KRviator

11th Jul 2021, 03:02

Ok… the person was 90, however the first death has occurred. The first death in what, 6 months? And she wasn't 90, she was in her 90's, already well past the average life expectancy for someone in their age range, which, IIRC, is somewhere around 82-83. My question - to which there will never be an answer - is "Replace Covid with Influenza, would she have survived that infection?"

While any death is tragic, I cannot fathom why we have, and are continuing, to spend such sums as mentioned by MickG when the Government has placed a specific value on human life for everything else - yet with Covid they've thrown that right out the window and are throwing money around like confetti, with scant regard for who is going to pick up the tab at the end of the party.

...we're going to be looking at something in the order of around $10+ million per life 'saved'.If that figure is even close to reality, based on around 45,000 deaths, it is obscene. No person is worth that amount of spending, no matter who they are. The Government's own figure puts a health adult, with 40 years ahead of them at only $6M, and your typical healthy adult is not the one's we are protecting - but they are the ones who are going to be stuck paying this several-hundred-billion-dollar bill for generations to come, and they've got absolutely no say in it!

Police find people playing cards together.. and IKEA stays open. What wil it take, Gladys?That's ridiculous, and be buggered if I know what the answer is. There was a group of teens at an 18th party for fuxake! Talking to the inlaws who live down that way, they reckon the Rozzers are now set up with ANPR technology on the roads in and out of their local area - and not a minute too soon, if you ask me.

I might not necessarily agree with lockdowns, et al, but when they're imposed, everyone has an obligation to comply with them.

Derfred

11th Jul 2021, 06:06

The Federal Government didn’t spend the money on saving lives.

The Federal Government spent the money on keeping the economy going, to keep people in jobs, and to help business survive.

They did a similar thing a decade ago, and it was generally regarded as a good investment.

The economies of the countries that let covid rip suffered more than Australia’s did.

International aviation and tourism has, however, of course been decimated.

MickG0105

11th Jul 2021, 07:33

The Federal Government didn’t spend the money on saving lives.

The Federal Government spent the money on keeping the economy going, to keep people in jobs, and to help business survive.

Well, yes and no. You need to remember that the need to keep the economy going was largely driven by the public health decisions that drove closing the international border, the initial lockdown, restrictive practices such as social distancing and the like. They were all aimed at preserving public health (also known as 'saving lives').

But your point shouldn't be lost - any assessment of the efficacy and efficiency of Australia's approach needs to consider both the public health outcomes (deaths, hospitalisations, etc) AND the economic outcome (GDP, unemployment and the like). That economic component was what was missing from the simple dollars spent per lives saved analysis I offered last night.

SOPS

11th Jul 2021, 07:52

Vic border to close to NSW at midnight. And people from the NT in NSW being told to come home. Here we go.

Stick Flying

11th Jul 2021, 08:23

The economies of the countries that let covid rip suffered more than Australia’s did.

You seem to be inferring the data is now past tense. This is far from over. The true cost to economies are not likely to be known for decades. If NZ and Australia don't have some form of exit strategy they will almost certainly be suffering the economic fallout long after other countries are on the path to recovery.

Chris2303

11th Jul 2021, 08:26

With Delta/Lambda affecting those as young as 15 is the death of anybody affected still a valid strategy?

That seems to be what Marketing and Boris are planning

Chris2303

11th Jul 2021, 08:37

If NZ and Australia don't have some form of exit strategy they will almost certainly be suffering the economic fallout long after other countries are on the path to recovery.

Quote from NZ Hansard from Thursday this week
"

Question No. 3—Finance3. Dr DUNCAN WEBB (Labour—Christchurch Central) to the Minister of Finance: What recent reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON (Minister of Finance): I know that this is a popular moment in the day for everybody. The Government's efforts to secure the recovery has been recognised once again by the global ratings agencies. Standard & Poor's global rating said in its mid-year update released yesterday that New Zealand's strong fiscal and monetary response to the pandemic, as well as the confidence in the Government's public health measures, have seen the economy recover much faster than expected. The ratings agency expects New Zealand to outpace its peers in the Asia-Pacific region, noting that economic activity has returned to its pre-pandemic trend in early 2021, making New Zealand one of the first countries to do so.

Dr Duncan Webb: What impact has the economy's recovery had on the labour market?

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Well, the Government's efforts to secure the recovery are reflected in the jobs market, which is going from strength to strength. The SEEK New Zealand Employment Report increased by 1 percent in June from the previous month to another record high for job advertising numbers. For the year, job ads rose to 115 percent, while job ad numbers are now 24 percent above pre-COVID highs—

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: On a trend basis, job ads were above pre-COVID levels for all regions. Unemployment has fallen to 4.7 percent, and while there are challenges for businesses in finding workers, this is, in fact, a reflection of a stronger-than-forecast economic activity and the economy operating above pre-COVID levels. The Government will continue to work with businesses to support them as the recovery continues.

Dr Duncan Webb: What other reports has he seen on the New Zealand economy?

Hon GRANT ROBERTSON: Thank you very much. The latest global dairy trade auction shows prices are consolidating and actually declining 3.6 percent. The easing in prices comes after strong gains earlier in the year, which is, in turn, due to robust global demand for New Zealand dairy products. Economists are saying that the decline in prices is partly due to strong milk production, which rose 9.3 percent in May, compared to the same month a year ago. For the entire 2020-21 season, production rose 2.7 percent. Commentators expect dairy payouts to farmers to retain near-historic highs in the new season, which is positive for farm incomes, positive for the regions, and positive for the economy overall."

This report from Stats NZ makes interesting reading
https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/gross-domestic-product-march-2021-quarter

My feeling is that the only problems NZ has are outside our direct control
1. Australia can't control the Covid outbreaks because a cadre of Australians refuse to do as they are told
2. We have fishing boat crew who arrive in AKL, are transferred by car to NPL, then test positive on the vessel so the vessel has to go to WLG for quarantine. (This one could have been solved if the crew had been refused entry)
3. Returnees undergo mandatory isolation and are negative on release. They then develop symptoms in the community. (The 14 day incubation period is reported as insufficient for Delta/Lambda)

blubak

11th Jul 2021, 08:50

The first death in what, 6 months? And she wasn't 90, she was in her 90's, already well past the average life expectancy for someone in their age range, which, IIRC, is somewhere around 82-83. My question - to which there will never be an answer - is "Replace Covid with Influenza, would she have survived that infection?"

While any death is tragic, I cannot fathom why we have, and are continuing, to spend such sums as mentioned by MickG when the Government has placed a specific value on human life for everything else - yet with Covid they've thrown that right out the window and are throwing money around like confetti, with scant regard for who is going to pick up the tab at the end of the party.

If that figure is even close to reality, based on around 45,000 deaths, it is obscene. No person is worth that amount of spending, no matter who they are. The Government's own figure puts a health adult, with 40 years ahead of them at only $6M, and your typical healthy adult is not the one's we are protecting - but they are the ones who are going to be stuck paying this several-hundred-billion-dollar bill for generations to come, and they've got absolutely no say in it!

That's ridiculous, and be buggered if I know what the answer is. There was a group of teens at an 18th party for fuxake! Talking to the inlaws who live down that way, they reckon the Rozzers are now set up with ANPR technology on the roads in and out of their local area - and not a minute too soon, if you ask me.

I might not necessarily agree with lockdowns, et al, but when they're imposed, everyone has an obligation to comply with them.
I hear what ur saying,many dont agree with lockdowns but hasnt everyone got an obligation to comply as you say.
I listened to a 35 yr old doctor who got covid last year talking on a melb radio station.
He gave a very in depth account of how it affected him & its taken him 9 months or so to feel normal again.
He stressed highly to get the jab & not only protect yourself but those who you love & cherish most.
For those that disagree,thats your choice but maybe think how it would feel if you were the 1 to pass it to someone you admire or love.

Lead Balloon

11th Jul 2021, 09:09

Yes, I just ran the Federal budget numbers there, at least in part for the sake of getting back to you in a reasonable timeframe. I'll have a further look at it over the next few days and look to roll in the state spending but there's at least a starting point there - we're going to be looking at something in the order of around $10+ million per life 'saved'.

The problem with trying to cost this thing beyond a fairly simple, fairly narrow basis is that calculations rapidly become complex. Even doing just lives saved versus federal government spending is a bit flaky in that it ignores the cost of a death, even if it's just in terms of whether there's a net cost/benefit to government (beyond that there's almost certainly a cost to the economy).

If you try to do it on a GDP basis then that needs to be comparative as well. We've doubtlessly spent more at the government level but our bounce-back in terms of GDP has been comparatively stellar. You'd have to ask if we were clocking over 30,000, 40,000 or 50,000 deaths what would that look like in terms of business confidence, productivity, and the like.

As I said, as soon as you start breaking out from the super-simple approach the calculations get super-messy.I look forward to the outcome of your further analysis.

But, just as a matter of principle: Are you suggesting that we should put no price on the cost of things like the curtailment of liberties or the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions? No price?

MickG0105

11th Jul 2021, 09:26

But, just as a matter of principle: Are you suggesting that we should put no price on the cost of things like the curtailment of liberties or the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions? No price?
It would be nice to be able to reduce all factors to a dollar figure but that often proves difficult, to the extent that it remains one of the largely intractable problems with public policy to this day.

Could we perhaps agree that the costs of the mental health implications, curtailment of liberties and the like are roughly equivalent to the costs of the mental health implications, social dislocation and economic impacts associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths over the period. That would solve one maths issue.

mattyj

11th Jul 2021, 09:27

Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt

dr dre

11th Jul 2021, 09:46

Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt

It’s moments like this I’m glad this libertarian nonsense hasn’t infected Australian culture like it has the USA, and most of us know to do the right thing (most of the time) and contribute to a well functioning society rather than worry about their individual wants. Examples - higher compliance with mask wearing and anti vaxxer/lockdown protests barely noticeable here in Oz.

The fact Qld/WA/NT already have most of their liberties back is a testament to that fact.

Lead Balloon

11th Jul 2021, 09:50

It would be nice to be able to reduce all factors to a dollar figure but that often proves difficult, to the extent that it remains one of the largely intractable problems with public policy to this day.

Could we perhaps agree that the costs of the mental health implications, curtailment of liberties and the like are roughly equivalent to the costs of the mental health implications, social dislocation and economic impacts associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths over the period. That would solve one maths issue.I'm chuffed to be able to expose some of the specious arguments of someone who's obviously a formidable intellect.

No: There is no automatic correspondence between the costs of the 'lockdown' and other restrictions imposed on the one hand and the lives saved on the other.

Your argument only begs the question.

SOPS

11th Jul 2021, 10:07

Turnleft080

11th Jul 2021, 10:28

SOPS, it's called covid fatigue. When Melbourne recorded 100 cases it took 16 weeks to get to zero. If Sydney get to 100 tomorrow (as Gladys indicated)
the mental pain just fogs up your brain. That's what lockdowns do, (it's like chemo) it may temporary reduce cases, they also mentally disintegrate you
and stress your wallet and relationships. We are humans and we are meant to be social beasts.

dr dre

11th Jul 2021, 10:47

I just saw on the News here, pictures of Sydney today. Masses of people out and about, no social distancing, no masks. Is this for real? Is this really happening? If it is, it’s no wonder the case numbers keep going up.

Seems like it (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/closures/mayhem-as-sydney-crowds-defy-lockdown-advice-to-stay-at-home/news-story/786f3ba4eede8a6a31b7ef1cd7a70765):

At one venue, Sydney’s Centennial Park, a visitor said it was “mayhem” with cars and crowds and that she had “never seen it so busy”.at Centennial Park, where the park’s centre was closed off, people crowded around the edges and customers crammed into the cafe without masks while failing to observe social distancing rules.

“It was busier than the Easter Show,” one park visitor, identified as Natasha, said

“Cars were honking horns, we were getting pushed off the footpaths and on to the horse track.

At Bondi, which has had more than 70 “venues of concern” listed by NSW Health, including 20 on the “close contacts” list, maskless people strode the promenade by the beach.

At Double Bay, a personal training group appeared to have done exactly what Premier Berejiklian warned against: “If you are outdoors exercising in a group of ten, make sure the ten doesn’t become 20”.

Elsewhere in Sydney, including at Flemington Markets, people crowded in to do their Saturday morning shopping, while a reader reported that at Darling Square, “every outdoor table and bench is full”, and that Sydney Park was “packed like a normal Saturday”.

And that was a week ago.

The government should’ve locked down earlier and been serious about it rather than saying “pretty please” but the populace have to lift their act, otherwise they’ll be in their “sort of” lockdown until after winter and aviation will continue to be adversely affected.

galdian

11th Jul 2021, 11:07

Liberty is priceless and the government has already missed several payments..it’s time for the people to call in the debt

OK I'll bite because seriously interested.

Short and sweet - what (fairly specifically) would matty do as supreme leader?
Point form great - can expand if required later.
Explaining how to deal with the states/federal conundrum would be appreciated within the (short) answers.

Ta!

SOPS

11th Jul 2021, 11:14

Seems like it (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/closures/mayhem-as-sydney-crowds-defy-lockdown-advice-to-stay-at-home/news-story/786f3ba4eede8a6a31b7ef1cd7a70765):

At one venue, Sydney’s Centennial Park, a visitor said it was “mayhem” with cars and crowds and that she had “never seen it so busy”.at Centennial Park, where the park’s centre was closed off, people crowded around the edges and customers crammed into the cafe without masks while failing to observe social distancing rules.

“It was busier than the Easter Show,” one park visitor, identified as Natasha, said

“Cars were honking horns, we were getting pushed off the footpaths and on to the horse track.

At Bondi, which has had more than 70 “venues of concern” listed by NSW Health, including 20 on the “close contacts” list, maskless people strode the promenade by the beach.

At Double Bay, a personal training group appeared to have done exactly what Premier Berejiklian warned against: “If you are outdoors exercising in a group of ten, make sure the ten doesn’t become 20”.

Elsewhere in Sydney, including at Flemington Markets, people crowded in to do their Saturday morning shopping, while a reader reported that at Darling Square, “every outdoor table and bench is full”, and that Sydney Park was “packed like a normal Saturday”.

And that was a week ago.

The government should’ve locked down earlier and been serious about it rather than saying “pretty please” but the populace have to lift their act, otherwise they’ll be in their “sort of” lockdown until after winter and aviation will continue to be adversely affected.

What does Sydney not understand ???

Foxxster

11th Jul 2021, 11:51

I hope this kind of crap isn’t what we have to look forward to when our vaccination rates are around the uk’s current level. But alas I suspect it might be.

https://youtu.be/QLXoT0S0zaU

neville_nobody

11th Jul 2021, 11:55

It’s moments like this I’m glad this libertarian nonsense hasn’t infected Australian culture like it has the USA, and most of us know to do the right thing (most of the time) and contribute to a well functioning society rather than worry about their individual wants. Examples - higher compliance with mask wearing and anti vaxxer/lockdown protests barely noticeable here in Oz.

The fact Qld/WA/NT already have most of their liberties back is a testament to that fact.

You are missing the point that in a libertarian society it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and not be dictated to by a government authority.

And you are smoking alot of drugs if you think anyone in the Australian Commonwealth has most of their liberties back. How long have the so-called "state of emergency" laws been rolling on for now?? 18 months?? How long are they going to be around?? What's your freedom of movement within in your own country looking like?? You realise this sort of stuff would have started civil wars 100 years ago, but now we are so soft that it is all just 'accepted'.

The problem with all this is that it could be used as a basis of a proper permanent removal of liberty and a move toward a much more totalitarian state. Only time will tell on that one.

What does Sydney not understand ???

Maybe they prefer their freedom and are happy to take the risk?

gordonfvckingramsay

11th Jul 2021, 12:20

You are missing the point that in a libertarian society it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and not be dictated to by a government authority.

I don’t think the point was missed at all. Libertarianism requires a level of maturity in order for it to work. It has nothing to do with not giving a fvck about your fellow humans, even though most think it does. The way it is applied in the US (disguised as freedom) is pretty poor.

SOPS

11th Jul 2021, 12:28

You are missing the point that in a libertarian society it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and not be dictated to by a government authority.

And you are smoking alot of drugs if you think anyone in the Australian Commonwealth has most of their liberties back. How long have the so-called "state of emergency" laws been rolling on for now?? 18 months?? How long are they going to be around?? What's your freedom of movement within in your own country looking like?? You realise this sort of stuff would have started civil wars 100 years ago, but now we are so soft that it is all just 'accepted'.

The problem with all this is that it could be used as a basis of a proper permanent removal of liberty and a move toward a much more totalitarian state. Only time will tell on that one.

Maybe they prefer their freedom and are happy to take the risk?

Have freedom and take the risk.. ok.. fill you pants. Enjoy.

Transition Layer

11th Jul 2021, 12:38

Have freedom and take the risk.. ok.. fill you pants. Enjoy.
Mark is that you? How is Rockingham this evening?

dr dre

11th Jul 2021, 12:46

You are missing the point that in a libertarian society it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and not be dictated to by a government authority.

Does that person also accept responsibility if they don’t wear a mask and infect others, or don’t get vaccinated and clog up the medical system? Eventually a society of millions individuals doing what they want will lead to disaster. Look at how well East Asian societies have controlled the pandemic, with their emphasis on collective rights and following the directives to stop the outbreaks vs most western nations, especially “Liberty Central” USA and how all those individuals deciding they weren’t going to let the government tell them to wear a mask worked out?

You realise this sort of stuff would have started civil wars 100 years ago, but now we are so soft that it is all just 'accepted'.

Yeah, you’re right, about 100 years ago there’s no way Australians would’ve tolerated this bullsh-

The Australian Quarantine Service monitored the spread of the pandemic and implemented maritime quarantine on 17 October 1918
The city of Sydney implemented strict measures in an attempt to limit the spread of the disease. This included closing schools and places of entertainment and mandating the use of masks.
In Perth, the combination of the city’s relative isolation and effective state border quarantine control ensured that pneumonic influenza didn’t appear there until June 1919.

1919: Influenza pandemic reaches Australia (https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/influenza-pandemic)

The problem with all this is that it could be used as a basis of a proper permanent removal of liberty and a move toward a much more totalitarian state. Only time will tell on that one.

Ok live with that paranoia if you want. In Australia we’ve already decided as a society we don’t want the extreme libertarianism of the USA by having things like gun control, universal healthcare and mandated annual and personal leave provisions.

Green.Dot

11th Jul 2021, 19:34

SOPS, it's called covid fatigue. When Melbourne recorded 100 cases it took 16 weeks to get to zero. If Sydney get to 100 tomorrow (as Gladys indicated)
the mental pain just fogs you up

Exactly what excuse can Sydney use as covid fatigue? It’s been about a week of a full blown (not quite Melbourne style) lockdown. If anything people should be more vigilant. If it was three months on and people showing no interest that is different.

Some people are selfish beasts though, carry on like this and the only thing to save Sydney will be the vaccine. How that plays out time wise is anyone’s guess.

blubak

11th Jul 2021, 21:33

I just saw on the News here, pictures of Sydney today. Masses of people out and about, no social distancing, no masks. Is this for real? Is this really happening? If it is, it’s no wonder the case numbers keep going up.
Somebody posted that it took us here in melbourne 16 weeks to get numbers of around 100/day down to a few a day,we were getting 700/day at the height of it which was prob late aug/early sep last year.
It looks like the current restrictions arent working so its either keep going as they are & see how far it goes or the lockdown has to be made exactly that,a true lockdown.
I guess a big decision is imminent.

SHVC

11th Jul 2021, 22:11

I would expect at 11am announcement of 100+ cases for SY, half of those at least in the community during their whole infectious period. Then about 11:15 she will have to announce something a little tougher seems Sydney ppl are just not getting it.

MickG0105

11th Jul 2021, 22:12

I'm chuffed to be able to expose some of the specious arguments of someone who's obviously a formidable intellect.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. You framed the line of inquiry - number of lives saved through mitigation versus cost of mitigation - I'm just plugging some best estimates into that. If you think that there's something specious about that approach, let's deal with that now before I waste any more time looking into it.

No: There is no automatic correspondence between the costs of the 'lockdown' and other restrictions imposed on the one hand and the lives saved on the other.
That's not what I proposed. You suggested that a range of non-financial factors - things like the curtailment of liberties, the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions - should be costed. I pointed out that that is difficult. What's the objective dollar cost of, or a reasonable surrogate cost for, the 'curtailment of liberties'? If it can't be costed the alternative is to see if it can be reflected in the other factor we're looking at, the denominator - deaths (negative lives saved). Is there an estimate of the number of deaths that arose from the 'curtailment of liberties'?

Getting back to the question asked, what I proposed was that if you could cost those factors for the mitigation scenario we're living in, might the cost be somewhat similar to the costing of the range of non-financial factors associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths. Just to be clear, do you think that there would be mental health implications associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths?

Flipping the question around now into the 'currency' of deaths, might the number of deaths that have arisen due to the curtailment of liberties, the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions be roughly equivalent to the number that might have arisen due to having to deal with some 40,000-odd excess deaths? Any thoughts on what the numbers might be for each scenario?

601

12th Jul 2021, 01:01

So people we need to get a bit of perspective here.
Lockdowns for a few weeks are nothing compared to what 63,000 of us endured when we had our lives turned upside down for 2 years back in the 60s.

ruprecht

12th Jul 2021, 01:13

So people we need to get a bit of perspective here.
Lockdowns for a few weeks are nothing compared to what 63,000 of us endured when we had our lives turned upside down for 2 years back in the 60s.
The 1860s?

Chris2303

12th Jul 2021, 01:20

Ladloy

12th Jul 2021, 01:23

112 cases, 34 in the community while infected. Onya Gladys.

jrfsp

12th Jul 2021, 01:28

Someone infected went to VIC and SA....just fantastic

Lead Balloon

12th Jul 2021, 01:35

That's not what I proposed. You suggested that a range of non-financial factors - things like the curtailment of liberties, the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions - should be costed. I pointed out that that is difficult. What's the objective dollar cost of, or a reasonable surrogate cost for, the 'curtailment of liberties'? If it can't be costed the alternative is to see if it can be reflected in the other factor we're looking at, the denominator - deaths (negative lives saved). Is there an estimate of the number of deaths that arose from the 'curtailment of liberties'?So what if it's 'difficult' to cost?

Are you suggesting that because it's 'difficult' to cost, the curtailment of liberties and other intangible consequences of lockdowns should just be valued at zero?

Getting back to the question asked, what I proposed was that if you could cost those factors for the mitigation scenario we're living in, might the cost be somewhat similar to the costing of the range of non-financial factors associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths. Might it? You're just speculating.

That's my point: We shouldn't be speculating.

Just to be clear, do you think that there would be mental health implications associated with some 40,000-odd excess deaths?Ummm. I'm pretty sure I know the correct answer to that one. Is it 'yes'?

Flipping the question around now into the 'currency' of deaths, might the number of deaths that have arisen due to the curtailment of liberties, the mental health implications of the 'lock downs' and other government actions be roughly equivalent to the number that might have arisen due to having to deal with some 40,000-odd excess deaths?There you go again: "might" there be "roughly equivalent" costs?

I say again: That's my point. We shouldn't be speculating. We should be formulating proper estimates.

Let me do some flipping around.

Let's say another country wants to invade and take over Australia. The new regime will initially control when and where we can travel, go to work and run businesses, but promises that we will 'eventually' be 'allowed' to make and implement those decisions ourselves.

Fighting a war with the other country will cost an estimated 150,000 Australian lives.

Why wouldn't we just surrender, in order to save those 150,000 lives? No lives lost and the 'only' sacrifices are things that are difficult to cost in dollar terms. The business case writes itself, surely?

MickG0105

12th Jul 2021, 02:08

So what if it's 'difficult' to cost?

Are you suggesting that because it's 'difficult' to cost, the curtailment of liberties and other intangible consequences of lockdowns should just be valued at zero?

Might it? You're just speculating.

That's my point: We shouldn't be speculating.

Ummm. I'm pretty sure I know the correct answer to that one. Is it 'yes'?

There you go again: "might" there be "roughly equivalent" costs?

I say again: That's my point. We shouldn't be speculating. We should be formulating proper estimates.

Let me do some flipping around.

Let's say another country wants to invade and take over Australia. The new regime will initially control when and where we can travel, go to work and run businesses, but promises that we will 'eventually' be 'allowed' to make and implement those decisions ourselves.

Fighting a war with the other country will cost an estimated 150,000 Australian lives.

Why wouldn't we just surrender, in order to save those 150,000 lives? No lives lost and the 'only' sacrifices are things that are difficult to cost in dollar terms. The business case writes itself, surely?
Right, let's draw this argy-barge to a close because I do not have the time to be formulating "proper estimates" for non-financials.

If you want to compare a speculative 'let it rip' scenario to the actual solution that Australian Governments have pursued, run with a cost of around $450 billion (that's $350 billion for the federal response (including tax revenues foregone), $60 billion for the aggregate state based responses an $40 billion for the 'non-financials'). If that doesn't suit, put your own numbers in.

Lives "saved" - 35,000 if you use Sweden to calculate the likely deaths under a minimalist mitigation approach; 45,000 if you use UK/US.

Raw dollars/life saved is in the range $10 million - $12.9 million. Adjust to suit your needs.

We came into this with a Federal government with a two seat majority in the House and the minors controlling the Senate having to work under the Constitution with the various State governments, three or four of which were facing upcoming elections. A low/no-mitigation approach was never a realistic alternative. Either the states would have done there own thing or on the day we reached a deaths milestone (5,000 in total, 500 on one day, etc, take your pick ) the Federal government would likely have lost a vote of confidence.

If your going to compare our actual camel of an approach/outcome with a unicorn of a speculative scenario, gee, I wonder how that's going to play out? The problem of course is that unicorns aren't real.

Foxxster

12th Jul 2021, 03:38

10 to 12.9 million per life. And the average age of those who die is around 82. Certainly that is the case in the uk and Australia. Which is about 1 year over the average age of all deaths. Hmmmmm. I wonder how many people would take on a family debt of 10 to 12.9 million to keep 82 year old grandpa or grandma alive for perhaps another few years.. that debt passed down through the generations of that family until it is repaid. Just like the 500 or whatever billion we have just spent will be….

answers on a postage stamp please. Just food for thought.

I would have thought that kind of money would be better spent on the overall health budget, medical research or social housing or education.

but then I guess nobody had any idea how this would play out and we still don’t.

oh to be a national leader..

aviation_enthus

12th Jul 2021, 03:43

Right, let's draw this argy-barge to a close because I do not have the time to be formulating "proper estimates" for non-financials.

If you want to compare a speculative 'let it rip' scenario to the actual solution that Australian Governments have pursued, run with a cost of around $450 billion (that's $350 billion for the federal response (including tax revenues foregone), $60 billion for the aggregate state based responses an $40 billion for the 'non-financials'). If that doesn't suit, put your own numbers in.

Lives "saved" - 35,000 if you use Sweden to calculate the likely deaths under a minimalist mitigation approach; 45,000 if you use UK/US.

Raw dollars/life saved is in the range $10 million - $12.9 million. Adjust to suit your needs.

We came into this with a Federal government with a two seat majority in the House and the minors controlling the Senate having to work under the Constitution with the various State governments, three or four of which were facing upcoming elections. A low/no-mitigation approach was never a realistic alternative. Either the states would have done there own thing or on the day we reached a deaths milestone (5,000 in total, 500 on one day, etc, take your pick ) the Federal government would likely have lost a vote of confidence.

If your going to compare our actual camel of an approach/outcome with a unicorn of a speculative scenario, gee, I wonder how that's going to play out? The problem of course is that unicorns aren't real.

Good summary of the “other factors”. It’s never as simple as the personal liberty VS lockdowns argument is put (by most people).

Even if we had followed a minimal restrictions approach and instead spent stacks of $$$ on health etc, business demand in various sectors would have dropped.

So a large number of business would have gone under anyway due to a change in spending patterns due to a large outbreak.

Airlines would have still put a lot of staff on unpaid leave because demand would have dropped at least 40%, plus international would have dried up because of the various restrictions all around the world.

Having quarantine on arrival made sense as a policy for Australia (an island). Plays to our massive strength. Having the nationwide lockdown last year made sense, originally to flatten the curve….

But that time should have been used to rapidly build “donga cities” in BNE/SYD/MEL/PER by mid year 2020.

Instead of arguing over a couple of dollars, Australia should have negotiated a similar deal to Israel for the Pfizer vaccine (as well as the AZ deal for onshore production, plus the failed UQ vaccine). This would have given us much better options. And a way out of the current mess!!

The general strategy wasn’t bad. And as mentioned was politically possible in our federation (states actually run the various health sectors, feds control the money). But around October last year, Australia was to busy saying “awesome job!” “Look how good we are!” when they should have been working harder than ever….

PoppaJo

12th Jul 2021, 04:44

112 cases, 34 in the community while infected. Onya Gladys.
‘Lockdown’

https://mobile.twitter.com/ijmullen/status/1414419056304685057

SOPS

12th Jul 2021, 05:11

https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/29b913b9d7f670eac2c6656becebeef0?impolicy=wcms_crop_resize&cropH=3333&cropW=5000&xPos=0&yPos=0&width=862&height=575

This is a photo of police in Fairfield. What’s with all the cars? Sydney really does not understand ‘ lock down’, does it?

Capn Rex Havoc

12th Jul 2021, 05:40

what's with the police not wearing masks?

Lead Balloon

12th Jul 2021, 06:18

A very good question.

What is happening in Sydney is that lots (and lots) of people are saying: Well, if it's OK for the bottleshop to stay open and it's OK for the furniture store to stay open and it's OK for the police to ride around without masks on and it's OK for..... C-19 can't be that serious a risk.

And there are lots (and lots) of Sydneysiders who are saying: Stuff it. I'll do what I like and you can go your hardest on me.

Lockdowns need be done fully-arsed rather than half-arsed, if they are going to have much chance of succeeding.

jrfsp

12th Jul 2021, 06:22

If a serious lockdown had been imposed two weeks ago this could have all been knocked on the head...but no "NSW does things differently'

There has been no containment over the last two weeks its now spread all over the city and numbers are climbing.....im not sure what GB is waiting for - "burdens" are needed,

Foxxster

12th Jul 2021, 06:23

The chook is urging Queenslanders in NSW to come home.

Border closure from midnight tonight coming up….

Lead Balloon

12th Jul 2021, 06:30

...thus causing a stampede of people, including potentially infected people, from NSW to QLD. What could possibly go wrong?

Xeptu

12th Jul 2021, 06:45

And our leaders still manage to find a way to balls it up. We are so fatigued. The virus is perfect, the fatal strain is inevitable, we are not preparing for it, it is preparing us.

NephewBob

12th Jul 2021, 06:59

https://www.covidchartsquiz.com/

mattyj

12th Jul 2021, 09:05

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/460x666/f2fbe373_4c44_4c48_9f06_5f51f334f736_896718e660a7a1ff4b5e310 7c584bee5bc6f37a5.jpeg

SOPS

12th Jul 2021, 09:06

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/460x666/f2fbe373_4c44_4c48_9f06_5f51f334f736_896718e660a7a1ff4b5e310 7c584bee5bc6f37a5.jpeg

And that is exactly the problem.

PoppaJo

12th Jul 2021, 10:27

Loved the footage of the bloke fishing who said he was ‘fishing for food to survive’. He was able to continue.

Try that in a Dan lockdown last year. Be at least 5k fine.

machtuk

12th Jul 2021, 11:47

This lunacy will continue for years to come, this one event will change the way we live get used to living with fear & tyranny!

Ladloy

12th Jul 2021, 12:04

Loved the footage of the bloke fishing who said he was ‘fishing for food to survive’. He was able to continue.

Try that in a Dan lockdown last year. Be at least 5k fine.
hunting for food was allowed

cynphil

12th Jul 2021, 21:18

The chook is urging Queenslanders in NSW to come home.

Border closure from midnight tonight coming up….

Queensland won’t close borders until all the NRL teams are relocated …..probably after Wednesday…..

C441

12th Jul 2021, 21:30

The chook is urging Queenslanders in NSW to come home.
Border closure from midnight tonight coming up….
Not until the NRL teams, their entourage and families are 'safely' in Queensland and the State of Origin has been played. After all, the CHO said they present absolutely no risk to the Queensland community….:rolleyes:

Cafe City

12th Jul 2021, 21:40

cynphil

12th Jul 2021, 21:46

hunting for food was allowed

Sorry that’s not correct!

https://mcusercontent.com/3f16118677092c3c98ca13bd5/files/b5551547-10b4-4603-8263-6e2c31771cb2/Restrictions_update_2_August_2020.pdf

highflyer40

12th Jul 2021, 21:48

hunting for food was allowed

Never heard of a supermarket?

Foxxster

12th Jul 2021, 22:30

Not until the NRL teams, their entourage and families are 'safely' in Queensland and the State of Origin has been played. After all, the CHO said they present absolutely no risk to the Queensland community….:rolleyes:

ah of course. Absolutely. Didn’t think of that. But 100% correct. I was wondering why she didn’t act last night. The warning was put out just like Victoria did. But Victoria acted the same day. No footy players relocating there though…

SHVC

12th Jul 2021, 22:32

QLD is broke as f&$k, they need that NRL dollars. To think it was all about the health advice

Cafe City

12th Jul 2021, 22:35

ah of course. Absolutely. Didn’t think of that. But 100% correct. I was wondering why she didn’t act last night. The warning was put out just like Victoria did. But Victoria acted the same day. No footy players relocating there though…

And hence why the thinly veiled warning to Qld residents in NSW, along the lines of “Get home now. I can’t make it any clearer than that”.
Well you could… you could stop speaking with a forked tongue.

MickG0105

12th Jul 2021, 22:38

It’s never as simple as the personal liberty VS lockdowns argument is put (by most people).

It's probably more correctly a personal liberty versus public health argument in that the lockdowns are being used to pursue public health outcomes. Thus it boils down to the discussion/debate that first started a few millennia ago when people first started organising themselves into societal groups - how you reconcile the trade-off between the individual and the group.

Unsurprisingly, some people are firm advocates for individual rights first, while others believe that the welfare of the group is more important. To tap Aurelius, it's the bee and the hive discussion. At the end of the day it comes down to personal values. And frankly who is anyone on this forum to tell anyone else that their values are wrong?

I think that it is fair to say that what some people see as an unreasonable imposition on civil liberties others see as a reasonable public health measure. Those pesky values again. You do you.

Even if we had followed a minimal restrictions approach and instead spent stacks of $$$ on health etc, business demand in various sectors would have dropped.

Trying to get good country-to-country spending comparisons is problematic for a number of reasons but Sweden's COVID spending in per capita terms appears to be not dissimilar to ours. As a proportion of GDP we have committed around 19 percent, a bit more than the UK, similar to Canada but significantly less than any of Japan, France or Germany.

In terms of how Sweden and Australia have ridden through COVID economically to date, we're doing better in terms of GDP growth (compared to Q4-19, our economy has actually grown to Q1-21; Sweden's (as are most developed countries') is still down) and unemployment (at 5.1 percent we're back to where we were coming into the pandemic whereas Sweden at 9.8 percent is stuck some 2+ percentage points higher than where their were coming in). Draw your own conclusions from that.

SHVC

12th Jul 2021, 23:23

Vic and SA reporting new cases. This could be spreading country wide by months end.

hoss58

12th Jul 2021, 23:28

It's probably more correctly a personal liberty versus public health argument in that the lockdowns are being used to pursue public health outcomes. Thus it boils down to the discussion/debate that first started a few millennia ago when people first started organising themselves into societal groups - how you reconcile the trade-off between the individual and the group.

Unsurprisingly, some people are firm advocates for individual rights first, while others believe that the welfare of the group is more important. To tap Aurelius, it's the bee and the hive discussion. At the end of the day it comes down to personal values. And frankly who is anyone on this forum to tell anyone else that their values are wrong?

I think that it is fair to say that what some people see as an unreasonable imposition on civil liberties others see as a reasonable public health measure. Those pesky values again. You do you.

Trying to get good country-to-country spending comparisons is problematic for a number of reasons but Sweden's COVID spending in per capita terms appears to be not dissimilar to ours. As a proportion of GDP we have committed around 19 percent, a bit more than the UK, similar to Canada but significantly less than any of Japan, France or Germany.

In terms of how Sweden and Australia have ridden through COVID economically to date, we're doing better in terms of GDP growth (compared to Q4-19, our economy has actually grown to Q1-21; Sweden's (as are most developed countries') is still down) and unemployment (at 5.1 percent we're back to where we were coming into the pandemic whereas Sweden at 9.8 percent is stuck some 2+ percentage points higher than where their were coming in). Draw your own conclusions from that.

Mr Spock may have been on to something when he said quite succinctly "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few."

Just some food for thought.

Fly safe (when you can) and play hard (when you can)

Cheers Hoss

MickG0105

12th Jul 2021, 23:41

Mr Spock may have been on to something when he said quite succinctly "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few."

And then, of course, in the next movie you had Kirk saying that sometimes "... the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

You do you.

Ladloy

13th Jul 2021, 01:53

And then, of course, in the next movie you had Kirk saying that sometimes "... the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."

You do you.
89 cases. Onya Gladys

Lead Balloon

13th Jul 2021, 02:03

And some of us are arguing that the response be the subject of a proper cost-benefit analysis. It's a completely uncontroversial concept applied in many other aspects of the workings of our society.

It may be that the real costs of the response outweigh the value of the lives saved. Or it may not be. And the real costs are not confined to just curtailed liberties.

(I was struck by the implications of a societal phenomenon of which I was not aware but recently heard explained by a doctor practising in the inner suburbs of Sydney: Many older people go to shopping centres to get warm, because they cannot afford to heat their homes. And well-known psychologist, social researcher and writer, Hugh Mackay, recently pointed out that the worst punishment we inflict on prisoners is solitary confinement. But we are effectively ordering all these old people to go into solitary confinement. At least prisons are heated. It reminds of that song by another well-known public figure: Ozzie Osbourne. "Killing ourselves to live.")

If Australia continues to stumble from outbreak and lockdown to outbreak and lockdown, without some clear and credible evidence of why it's all 'worth it', I fear that the 'circuit breaker' will be very, very ugly.

MickG0105

13th Jul 2021, 02:29

...
And well-known psychologist, social researcher and writer, Hugh Mackay, recently pointed out that the worst punishment we inflict on prisoners is solitary confinement.
In some countries the worst punishment inflicted on prisoners is the death penalty. We officially took that off the table as a sentencing option over 35 years ago.

Lead Balloon

13th Jul 2021, 02:36

Your point being?

blubak

13th Jul 2021, 08:46

Vic and SA reporting new cases. This could be spreading country wide by months end.
So,we now learn that the family in melbourne who returned from sydney broke their stay at home isolation requirements & the 3 removalists have varying stories on where they visited etc.
Im really curious how hard it is for people to understand exactly what 'stay at home' means.
I constantly see on here comments about how home isolation is the way to go & how it would be much better that having people in hotel quarantine.
I wouldnt be surprised to see them running to the media now with stories of how badly they have been treated.
The govt have said they wont be fined as they have been forthcoming about their movements,guess u dont have much choice after being caught red handed.

ScepticalOptomist

13th Jul 2021, 08:55

Vic and SA reporting new cases. This could be spreading country wide by months end.

Good thing everyone will have had a vaccination by then!

Just needed a little outbreak to motivate people.

Cafe City

13th Jul 2021, 09:22

Can we hold a sweep on how long after the NRL settles in their hotels in Qld until AP suddenly finds a reason to close the border?
She’s not even a good actor… written all over her and JY’s faces tonight on the news.

DHC8 Driver

13th Jul 2021, 10:08

Turnleft080

13th Jul 2021, 10:29

Vic and SA reporting new cases. This could be spreading country wide by months end.

A Geoffrey Robertson hypothetical.
If every state and territory declared 100 cases or even 500 cases and all the borders are open.
Which state would close their border to which state? Why would they do so? Every state is on an equal footing.
One state would complain "you can't close the border because your state is just as infected as ours".

Or let's say all the borders are shut. All state cases jump to 1000 then 2000. Then you could argue, the border is no longer a border
it's just an imaginary line.

MickG0105

13th Jul 2021, 11:42

Your point being?
Just noting that the formerly worst punishment we inflicted on prisoners, the death penalty, is precisely what gets put on the table as a possible outcome for at least some of "these old people" if we don't "effectively order all these old people to go into solitary confinement". It strikes me as somewhat odd that "well-known psychologist, social researcher and writer, Hugh Mackay," hadn't observed the incongruity in being so perturbed by the lesser of the two punishments.

Separately, it is also notable that nearly four decades ago we determined that the death penalty should not be countenanced for even the most heinous crimes yet in some quarters that is exactly what has been seen as an acceptable outcome for entirely innocent people so that we can avoid public health measures that temporarily impact civil liberties. That strikes me as a tad incongruous but I expect that others will have no issues with reconciling that. You do you.

Tucknroll

13th Jul 2021, 13:05

A Geoffrey Robertson hypothetical.
If every state and territory declared 100 cases or even 500 cases and all the borders are open.
Which state would close their border to which state? Why would they do so? Every state is on an equal footing.
One state would complain "you can't close the border because your state is just as infected as ours".

Or let's say all the borders are shut. All state cases jump to 1000 then 2000. Then you could argue, the border is no longer a border
it's just an imaginary line.

Yeah but that’s the whole point.
right now everyone in Sydney has a 10km imaginary line around their place of residence.
They way you break a pandemic is to stop the spread of the virus. You can do that through vaccination or by reducing contact between people. That’s it. Those are the options.

The vaccine rollout has been a mess, the only other option is to limit the movement and contact that people have with each other.

This isn’t a conspiracy for the government to take control. I guarantee they’re having a far worse time than previous governments who just needed to worry about whether to build a new stadium, or which rich political sponsor they were going to have dinner with this week.

Icarus2001

13th Jul 2021, 13:11

Can we remember that 98% of COVID positive people recover.

Tucknroll

13th Jul 2021, 13:15

Can we remember that 98% of COVID positive people recover.

There isn’t enough research done on the long term effects of Covid for you to make that assessment.

SOPS

13th Jul 2021, 13:31

There isn’t enough research done on the long term effects of Covid for you to make that assessment.

I know some one with long Covid. It’s not pleasant. I wish I did not have to wait another 3 weeks for my second AZ.

WingNut60

13th Jul 2021, 13:56

I know some one with long Covid. It’s not pleasant. I wish I did not have to wait another 3 weeks for my second AZ.
You don't need to wait.
My SIL (age 69) rang yesterday and asked if she could have her 2nd A-Z early - 8 weeks in.
Yes. No problem.
Got her 2nd A-Z this morning.

SOPS

13th Jul 2021, 14:10

You don't need to wait.
My SIL (age 69) rang yesterday and asked if she could have her 2nd A-Z early - 8 weeks in.
Yes. No problem.
Got her 2nd A-Z this morning.

Thanks for the info.

Transition Layer

13th Jul 2021, 14:21

Can we remember that 98% of COVID positive people recover.

Don’t forget…all deaths “with Covid” (not from) are counted.

Bur not all Covid cases are counted. So there’s no way in hell the mortality rate is actually 2%.

Bend alot

13th Jul 2021, 20:53

Can we remember that 98% of COVID positive people recover.

Another way to look at it, is 1 in every 50 positive cases don't recover!

(Not that I agree with your 98% figure)

Lead Balloon

13th Jul 2021, 21:34

Just noting that the formerly worst punishment we inflicted on prisoners, the death penalty, is precisely what gets put on the table as a possible outcome for at least some of "these old people" if we don't "effectively order all these old people to go into solitary confinement". It strikes me as somewhat odd that "well-known psychologist, social researcher and writer, Hugh Mackay," hadn't observed the incongruity in being so perturbed by the lesser of the two punishments.

Separately, it is also notable that nearly four decades ago we determined that the death penalty should not be countenanced for even the most heinous crimes yet in some quarters that is exactly what has been seen as an acceptable outcome for entirely innocent people so that we can avoid public health measures that temporarily impact civil liberties. That strikes me as a tad incongruous but I expect that others will have no issues with reconciling that. You do you.So the little old lady sitting alone and freezing in her home, who'd rather go to the warm shopping centre to meet her friends and take the risk of contracting C-19, would be 'sentenced to death' if she made that choice? If yes, presumably it would be her doing the sentencing? I know what my dearly-departed Granny would have said and done about all this. Her life; her choice.

But back to the point you keep avoiding.

Would you advocate that our society spend - let's pluck $100 Billion - to save one innocent life? Yes or no.

Would you advocate that our society spend $100 Billion to save two innocent lives? Yes or no.

Three? Yes or no.

If you've answered 'yes' to all of the above, we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you've answered 'no' to all of the above, what is the number at which your answer changes from a 'no' to a 'yes' and what is the basis for the change at that number?

We as a society make decisions about how much to sacrifice to save lives, all day, every day. That's why we have a road toll. It could be zero, but the cost of making it zero outweigh the astronomic costs of doing it. We could build unsinkable ships and uncrashable aircraft. We could put every life-saving drug on the pharmaceutical benefits list.

Tucknroll

13th Jul 2021, 21:49

Climb150

13th Jul 2021, 22:02

Lead Balloon

13th Jul 2021, 22:13

It's called "reality", Tucknroll. It may be unpalatable, but executing the messenger won't change it.

I know people who can't afford a life saving drug and I know why the government hasn't put it on the pharmaceutical benefits list: Cost.

Foxxster

13th Jul 2021, 22:13

pretty callous mate.

whats a life worth then?

$50? $100? $10,000?

how much money would you want the government to spend if it was spending it to save your child’s life?

It’s different when it’s not a faceless person.

And your granny wouldn’t have just been risking herself, she would be risking others. So I don’t care too much for the ‘my life, my choice’ idea.

a ridiculous argument.

I sure hope you have never had an overseas holiday or have ever bought anything but a basic second hand car or own a nice big tv or any other item that isn’t necessary for basic survival. Because if you have or do, you have chosen your own self gratification over saving lives. Especially those of children in third world countries. Just think how many lives 10,000 or 20,000 or 50,000 dollars would save there.

how callous of you. Oh, it’s ok because they are unseen.

see how that works. Oh and it isn’t up to government to look after that, you are perfectly able to give to charities.

SHVC

13th Jul 2021, 22:52

How long will it be before WA and SA close off to Vic? They’re getting steady cases again. One more tomorrow and Dan will do a sharp quick snap lockdown for three days.

dr dre

13th Jul 2021, 23:14

How long will it be before WA and SA close off to Vic? They’re getting steady cases again. One more tomorrow and Dan will do a sharp quick snap lockdown for three days.

Don’t stir people up unnecessarily, there was one new case today and they were isolating throughout their infectious period.

dr dre

13th Jul 2021, 23:30

Don’t forget…all deaths “with Covid” (not from) are counted.

Bur not all Covid cases are counted. So there’s no way in hell the mortality rate is actually 2%.

That old chestnut. Have a look at the excess mortality charts:

Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid)

Excess Deaths Associated with Covid 19 (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)

As far as true infection fatality rate goes Australia has been very thorough at testing, tens of thousands of tests whenever there’s an outbreak, so it’s likely we can record most infections when one occurs. And with 30,000 cases and 900 deaths that’s about a 3% IFR.

But we already know that, regardless of the IFR,
the pandemic has had consequential effects on excess mortality and health systems where it has been allowed to run unchecked in unvaccinated populations.

SHVC

13th Jul 2021, 23:34

Don’t stir people up unnecessarily, there was one new case today and they were isolating throughout their infectious period.

Im not at all, it’s the new country we live in. Constantly shutting borders over a few cases because they could potentially lead to a mass breakout of 20. Having border papers to cross into another city, a test just to leave the airport.

dr dre

13th Jul 2021, 23:39

Im not at all, it’s the new country we live in. Constantly shutting borders over a few cases because they could potentially lead to a mass breakout of 20. Having border papers to cross into another city, a test just to leave the airport.

They won’t close up for cases isolating throughout their infectious period. Just restrictions on those who’ve been to an exposure site.

When there’s unlinked cases spreading throughout the community that’s when restrictions tighten, both in the state and out.

When it’s spreading unchecked due to an incompetent government (Gladys) and a population that isn’t taking stay at home orders seriously (Sydney) then you get hard borders.

MickG0105

13th Jul 2021, 23:51

So the little old lady sitting alone and freezing in her home, who'd rather go to the warm shopping centre to meet her friends and take the risk of contracting C-19, would be 'sentenced to death' if she made that choice? If yes, presumably it would be her doing the sentencing? I know what my dearly-departed Granny would have said and done about all this. Her life; her choice.

But back to the point you keep avoiding.

Would you advocate that our society spend - let's pluck $100 Billion - to save one innocent life? Yes or no.

Would you advocate that our society spend $100 Billion to save two innocent lives? Yes or no.

Three? Yes or no.

If you've answered 'yes' to all of the above, we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you've answered 'no' to all of the above, what is the number at which your answer changes from a 'no' to a 'yes' and what is the basis for the change at that number?

We as a society make decisions about how much to sacrifice to save lives, all day, every day. That's why we have a road toll. It could be zero, but the cost of making it zero outweigh the astronomic costs of doing it. We could build unsinkable ships and uncrashable aircraft. We could put every life-saving drug on the pharmaceutical benefits list.
Okey doke, before you light too many more candles at the altar of cost-benefit analysis, let's be very clear on its shortcomings broadly and more specifically when applied in regimes such as public health, environmental matters or cultural issues. In order for CBAs to be performed properly, both sides of the equation, the costs and the benefits, must be expressed in a common measure. That common measure is typically dollars, often dollars as Net Present Value in order to address timing factors.

Broadly, CBA loses its objective utility whenever the analysis has to include non-market factors, that is, elements that are not marketed, not openly and routinely bought and sold, such that their dollar value cannot be determined objectively. When CBAs have to include factors such as lives (public health), something like air quality (environmental management) or say a cave of historical significance (cultural issues) the value assigned to those factors is arbitrary. And as soon as you introduce that arbitrariness into the equation, the utility of CBA breaks down. It is no longer a cut-and-dried objective analysis, it is now just an articulation of subjective values.

If you want to get into a your values versus someone else's values debate, fine and beaut, but don't try to dress that up under the veil of an objective tool like CBA. And no, I'm not going to play The Price Is Right - Human Life edition. While I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer I am most assuredly not dumb enough to step out onto that slippery slope. If you want to assign a dollar value, knock your socks off. My only caution would be to watch your footing because it's a long way down.

KRviator

13th Jul 2021, 23:55

pretty callous mate.Not at all. Realistic, and financially responsible, I would argue. There comes a point at which we, as a people, have said "enough is enough", which in turn gives the answer to your question below:whats a life worth then?

$50? $100? $10,000?As of August, 2019, the average "Healthy adult, with 40 years ahead of them" was valued at $4,900,000 AUD. Call it a round $5.0M in 2021 dollars. That's not a figure I've plucked out of my asre - that is the official "Value of a Statistical Life" from the Department of Prime Minister & Cabinet (https://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/value-of-statistical-life-guidance-note_0_0.pdf), and is used to judge everything from "Do we build a new bridge to save that hazardous water crossing?" to "Will we make this an AD or is it 'acceptable' to kill 'x' number of passengers because it'll cost too much?" It is not a new concept!

But...The concept itself has been thrown out the window for Covid, with no explanation given as to why it is now deemed ok to spend double, maybe triple that amount to save a significant number of people who, rightly or wrongly, wouldn't even be valued at that $5.0M figure due to their age.

how much money would you want the government to spend if it was spending it to save your child’s life?

It’s different when it’s not a faceless person.No, it isn't. If you allow emotions to cloud your judgement when dealing with decisions such as that, you do what ScoMo, et al have done. Run up a massive bill, or expend enormous resources for no significant benefit as opposed to making a rational, informed judgement.

And your granny wouldn’t have just been risking herself, she would be risking others. So I don’t care too much for the ‘my life, my choice’ idea.Then take some responsibility for your own health. If you don't want to run the risk of Covid, wear a mask, wash your hands, carry your own sanitizer, and do what you can to minimize your risk, instead of expecting society to do so for you.

ruprecht

14th Jul 2021, 00:01

And no, I'm not going to play The Price Is Right - Human Life edition. While I may not be the sharpest tool in the drawer I am most assuredly not dumb enough to step out onto that slippery slope. If you want to assign a dollar value, knock your socks off. My only caution would be to watch your footing because it's a long way down.

You may not like to do it because it’s “too icky”, but rest assured we do it every day.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 00:12

It's called "reality", Tucknroll. It may be unpalatable, but executing the messenger won't change it.
I know that response was to another comment but let's apply that reality test. Under the reality of the Federal government's paper thin parliamentary majority, the Constitution's division of powers between the Federal government and the States, and the current state governments can you articulate for us an alternative public policy approach that would have had even a ghost's chance of being enacted. Like it or lump it, here in the real world the guillotine test for public policy is implementability - can it be made real.

Happy to be proven wrong on this but there appeared to be a manifest lack of sufficient political support for alternative approaches to the pandemic for said alternative to get implemented. You can say that your 'unicorn' of an alternative approach would have been far superior on every dimension to the camel that we've got but the camel is what was realistically achievable, the unicorn is imaginary.

DirectAnywhere

14th Jul 2021, 00:35

You may not like to do it because it’s “too icky”, but rest assured we do it every day.

Precisely. This is what health economists do every day - they assign a $$ value to human life. You can guarantee the Doherty Institute will be looking at precisely these kinds of issues as part of their ‘four phase plan’ modelling. We need to have a detailed and nuanced national debate about what the future is going to look like - something that seems all but impossible in modern Australia.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 00:45

You may not like to do it because it’s “too icky”, but rest assured we do it every day.
Do you use the statistical life value of $5m for a 35 year old in good health or do you have a different value?

Foxxster

14th Jul 2021, 00:49

Do you use the statistical life value of $5m for a 35 year old in good health or do you have a different value?

not sure why anyone is using a 35 year old.

the average age of WuHu flu deaths here is 82, same as the uk and representative of world wide figures.

I would think the statistical value of a 82 year old is somewhat less than 5 million.

perhaps use that number instead.

oh and many if not most people who die of WuHu are most certainly not healthy but have significant co morbidity factors.

Icarus2001

14th Jul 2021, 01:47

Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=11078008#post11078008)
Can we remember that 98% of COVID positive people recover.
There isn’t enough research done on the long term effects of Covid for you to make that assessment.

I am not making an assessment, I am quoting the inverse of the Case Fatality Rate, the survival rate if you will. How many of the 98% who recover suffer "long Covid"?

The lowest CFR I could see is Qatar at 0.3% and most are between 1 & 2 %.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

It found that of the patients studied, 80 per cent recovered within a month, and just under 5 per cent were still experiencing symptoms three months after their diagnosis.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 01:47

not sure why anyone is using a 35 year old.

the average age of WuHu flu deaths here is 82, same as the uk and representative of world wide figures.

I would think the statistical value of a 82 year old is somewhat less than 5 million.

perhaps use that number instead.

oh and many if not most people who die of WuHu are most certainly not healthy but have significant co morbidity factors.
Sure, why not. We'll just put them down as a miscellaneous write-off - we could probably have covered it with petty cash.

Foxxster

14th Jul 2021, 02:38

Sure, why not. We'll just put them down as a miscellaneous write-off - we could probably have covered it with petty cash.

oh dear, did the facts hurt you. Show me on the dolly whereabouts.

Lead Balloon

14th Jul 2021, 02:55

I know that response was to another comment but let's apply that reality test. Under the reality of the Federal government's paper thin parliamentary majority, the Constitution's division of powers between the Federal government and the States, and the current state governments can you articulate for us an alternative public policy approach that would have had even a ghost's chance of being enacted. Like it or lump it, here in the real world the guillotine test for public policy is implementability - can it be made real.

Happy to be proven wrong on this but there appeared to be a manifest lack of sufficient political support for alternative approaches to the pandemic for said alternative to get implemented. You can say that your 'unicorn' of an alternative approach would have been far superior on every dimension to the camel that we've got but the camel is what was realistically achievable, the unicorn is imaginary.If the Commonwealth had stepped up to and competently discharged the responsibilities that fall squarely within its power, when it became obvious what was needed, we would all be in a different place now. Quarantine, vaccine purchase and roll out and aged care facilities.

We all realise that Scotty doesn't hold a hose or a syringe or lay bricks or work in a laboratory or run aged care facilities, but it's his government that pays the Piper and could and should have called the tune a lot earlier.

But I agree with you about the underlying politics. That's why the rumours of an early Federal election have evaporated. Scotty and his team are becoming very unpopular, as a consequence of their incompetence and - most recently - the differential treatment of Victorians compared with New South Welshmen.

All they know how to do well is react to political risk. And many, many Australians are getting very, very angry.

As I've said before, I earnestly hope that the urgency with which vaccines are now being purchased and rolled out will be the 'circuit breaker'. The alternatives are pretty ugly.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 03:42

If the Commonwealth had stepped up to and competently discharged the responsibilities that fall squarely within its power, when it became obvious what was needed, we would all be in a different place now. Quarantine, vaccine purchase and roll out and aged care facilities.

We all realise that Scotty doesn't hold a hose or a syringe or lay bricks or work in a laboratory or run aged care facilities, but it's his government that pays the Piper and could and should have called the tune a lot earlier.

But I agree with you about the underlying politics. That's why the rumours of an early Federal election have evaporated. Scotty and his team are becoming very unpopular, as a consequence of their incompetence and - most recently - the differential treatment of Victorians compared with New South Welshmen.

All they know how to do well is react to political risk. And many, many Australians are getting very, very angry.

As I've said before, I earnestly hope that the urgency with which vaccines are now being purchased and rolled out will be the 'circuit breaker'. The alternatives are pretty ugly.
Couldn't agree more that the vaccination program needs fixing. That said, when the initial roll-out and targets were announced I can't recall a groundswell of opinion that it wasn't fast enough (that could be down to bad recall).

I don't know about many, many Australians getting very, very angry. I've been trying to find polling on that topic. According to the Lowy Institute (https://www.lowyinstitute.org/publications/covidpoll-2021) back in May,
Almost all Australian adults (95%) say that Australia has handled COVID-19 ‘very well’ or ‘fairly well’ so far.
It's fair to say that a lot has happened since May but by the same token, 95% is a high ceiling to be dropping from.

According to Essential (https://essentialvision.com.au/tag/covid-19) it's a mixed bag. As late as last week people rating the federal government’s response to the Covid-19 outbreak as very poor had tripled since the start of the year but only to 12 percent.

Speaking of the vaccination program if you go to the third page of the Essential Report, there's some interesting (and worrying) data. Back in April, well before the AstraZeneca pile-on, 16 percent were saying they'd never be vaccinated! You might wonder what that number is now.

In terms of what people think about the spending on the pandemic response, nearest I've found is the response to the budget - a pretty good approval rating but with many people confused about exactly what it meant for them. Time will tell.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 03:44

oh dear, did the facts hurt you. Show me on the dolly whereabouts.
Thanks for taking time out to raise the standard of the discussion.

Lead Balloon

14th Jul 2021, 03:48

That said, when the initial roll-out and targets were announced I can't recall a groundswell of opinion that it wasn't fast enough (that could be down to bad recall). Your recall is accurate.

There wasn't "a groundswell of opinion that it wasn't fast enough" because Scotty was telling everyone it wasn't "a race" and, back then, people were putting more trust in him than they are now.

Vag277

14th Jul 2021, 04:50

An interesting study 17 years ago into Australia's capability to respond to a pandemic. Also has some interesting references to previous lock downs and quarantine. NSW reaction to ordered lockdown during smallpox epidemic sounds like today!
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp0405/05rp03

601

14th Jul 2021, 04:52

And many, many Australians are getting very, very angry.

Got any reference to backup this statement.
From a quick pole amongst the members a few organisations I belong to, the reverse is true.
Of course most of my associates are in the senior "vulnerable" cohort.

And a show of hands at a meeting last Wednesday. all but two have had at least one jab and had no confusion on what jab to get.

Lead Balloon

14th Jul 2021, 05:01

Try a "pole" of small business owners in locked down cities and essential workers whose businesses and lives are thrown into complete turmoil each time there's a leak from inadequate quarantine arrangements.

Lead Balloon

14th Jul 2021, 05:03

In terms of what people think about the spending on the pandemic response, nearest I've found is the response to the budget - a pretty good approval rating but with many people confused about exactly what it meant for them. Time will tell. Indeed.

The trillion in debt will be paid off 'later' by 'someone'. Big problems if the immigration-driven Ponzi scheme doesn't start again, soon.

ruprecht

14th Jul 2021, 05:11

Indeed.

The trillion in debt will be paid off 'later' by 'someone'. Big problems if the immigration-driven Ponzi scheme doesn't start again, soon.
That’s ok, I’m sure China will be along to sign a few Premiers up to the Belt and Road Initiative.

blubak

14th Jul 2021, 06:26

Don’t stir people up unnecessarily, there was one new case today and they were isolating throughout their infectious period.
The 1 case has gone to 8 now & guess what,those 3 furniture removalists are a big source of the ongoing outbreak.
These 3 & the owner of the removal business should be made accountable & fined heavily.
They have thumbed their nose at mask wearing requirements & many other conditions of their permit to travel/work in victoria.
Lets go with $5k each as a fine & $50k for the business.
We are so sick of these self entitled people so lets give them a memory jolt & maybe some others will take notice.

jrfsp

14th Jul 2021, 06:38

The 1 case has gone to 8 now & guess what,those 3 furniture removalists are a big source of the ongoing outbreak.
These 3 & the owner of the removal business should be made accountable & fined heavily.
They have thumbed their nose at mask wearing requirements & many other conditions of their permit to travel/work in victoria.
Lets go with $5k each as a fine & $50k for the business.
We are so sick of these self entitled people so lets give them a memory jolt & maybe some others will take notice.

Indeed, the reason home quarantine works in Singapore is people are scared of literally getting flogged if they dont comply. (Well imprisonment)

Too many people think the rules dont apply to them.

Agent_86

14th Jul 2021, 06:40

Western Australia has just closed its border with VIC...

SOPS

14th Jul 2021, 06:43

Western Australia has just closed its border with VIC...

Yep if you come from Vic to WA now, it’s 2 weeks Q.

jrfsp

14th Jul 2021, 06:50

Stand downs are now inevitable

Don't forget quarantine is 99.9% successful - the consequence of the 0.1% doesn't matter....

blubak

14th Jul 2021, 06:56

Indeed, the reason home quarantine works in Singapore is people are scared of literally getting flogged if they dont comply. (Well imprisonment)

Too many people think the rules dont apply to them.
U are 100% correct.
If we tried anything like that here(maybe a flogging is over the top) can you imagine the response of the anti everything brigade.
Like its such an inconvenience to wear a mask & of course its not within human rights to make someone wear 1😷

ruprecht

14th Jul 2021, 06:58

Stand downs are now inevitable.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x220/f49dead1_b72f_49d2_b977_c372ebbd39c3_05e79dbea08ca7e511b3e62 a049c3e062cd4ab9a.gif

:(

PoppaJo

14th Jul 2021, 07:16

Scotty better get on that phone himself perhaps to organise those doses ASAP or just resign FFS. His done.

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 07:51

Scotty better get on that phone himself perhaps to organise those doses ASAP or just resign FFS. His done.
So whom exactly will Scotty be on the phone to and how exactly will they be conjuring up "those doses". Manufacturing a vaccine is not like bottling water or making dunny paper.

Pfizer takes a minimum of 60 days to produce a batch of vaccine, AstraZeneca takes a minimum of 90 days. And those timelines are only achievable if all elements of the supply chain fall exactly into place. Presently, one of the critical supply chain elements are the vials.

Add to that the annoying reality that production is pretty much at capacity currently due to the global demand and, in any event, you can only ramp up as fast as the weakest link in the supply chain will allow.

The vaccine then has to be shipped and there's a complication with shipment protocols - AstraZeneca is shipped chilled and must not be frozen; Pfizer on the other is shipped frozen and must not be thawed. In other words, co-shipping to maximise the efficiency of limited refrigerated shipping assets is problematic.

Of course, the other issue now is the fallout from the AstraZeneca pile-on. Thanks to the likes of Palaszczuk's and Young's politicisation of the AstraZeneca vaccine, there are now doses of that vaccine available that nobody wants. I don't know about other states but Queensland now has a growing surplus of AstraZeneca doses because people are eschewing it and waiting for the opportunity to get Pfizer shots.

So, is a phone call is likely to fix it - you could ask Kevin07, I guess.

SHVC

14th Jul 2021, 08:25

Kevin 07 was proven false by Pfizer themself.

PoppaJo

14th Jul 2021, 08:30

Canada and Mexico had the initiative and called the Pfizer Global Ceo and increased supply, changed order dates.

That specific executive was actually asked if he had ever fielded a call from the Prime Minister of Australia. The answer was no.

SHVC

14th Jul 2021, 08:31

Don’t stir people up unnecessarily, there was one new case today and they were isolating throughout their infectious period.

Soooo, I told you so! WA not accepting goods from Vic freely now. Won’t be long until the others follow.

ruprecht

14th Jul 2021, 08:32

Surely Rudd’s “Australia 2020 Summit” saw this coming?

Remember that?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x366/8e0105f8_3117_4d78_b919_75dd1abf42ee_26c1e642fba3733debac319 3c249bf9112b67ded.jpeg

MickG0105

14th Jul 2021, 08:48

Canada and Mexico had the initiative and called the Pfizer Global Ceo and increased supply, changed order dates.

Uh-huh. Are you talking about these calls (https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/trudeau-speaks-to-pfizer-ceo-as-delays-to-vaccine-shipments-get-worse-1.1552403), six months ago, about delivery delays against the previously agreed schedules? Or this arrangement (https://www.nsnews.com/bc-news/covid-19-canada-signs-deal-with-pfizer-for-65m-booster-doses-over-two-years-3660035), from three months ago, for Canada to get more Pfizer vaccines in two years time?

Ladloy

14th Jul 2021, 08:53

Kevin 07 was proven false by Pfizer themself.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrKRudd/status/1414459193692590081?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7 Ctwgr%5Etweet

Rudd never negotiated. Just made a call and even shared with the PM. You know the PM who is currently underground and only emerges to sling **** at Labor politicians (Dan and Rudd). Couldn't find the time to call the head of Pfizer in a crisis.

Lead Balloon

14th Jul 2021, 08:55

Scotty's just being a 'leader'.

Buster Hyman

14th Jul 2021, 09:36

Need to change this title to the Oz Politics thread. So much BS from all sides. It's more about the next Election than the Covid response!

Turnleft080

14th Jul 2021, 10:33

Need to change this title to the Oz Politics thread. So much BS from all sides. It's more about the next Election than the Covid response!
I think their was a Covid thread early in March or talking Covid under a Virgin thread. I may have said in those
way back then, and most of you now that the scary thing about this virus is not the virus, it’s how politicians react to it.
Dan enjoyed his 122 consecutive press conferences, the power in his body language and dower voice made sure
he was going to suppress this virus and everything else in its way like chemo.
Problem is he got on the beers and spiked Glady’s drink and now invited NSW to bat chasing a target of 123.

WingNut60

14th Jul 2021, 10:47

I think their was a Covid thread early in March or talking Covid under a Virgin thread. I may have said in those
way back then, and most of you now that the scary thing about this virus is not the virus, it’s how politicians react to it.
Dan enjoyed his 122 consecutive press conferences, the power in his body language and dower voice made sure
he was going to suppress this virus and everything else in its way like chemo.
Problem is he got on the beers and spiked Glady’s drink and now invited NSW to bat chasing a target of 123.
A pretty good example of what Buster just said.

machtuk

14th Jul 2021, 12:48

Remember politicians face re-elections, their whole mantra is to groom enough followers in order for them to continue their lunacy!
upon election time reflect back on what they have done to destroy this nation.,

SHVC

14th Jul 2021, 21:05

ML to enter a 3 day lockdown from today. This madness needs to stop time to just move on.

Ladloy

14th Jul 2021, 21:08

ML to enter a 3 day lockdown from today. This madness needs to stop time to just move on.
The US and UK have moved on and there's one giant reason why.

Green.Dot

14th Jul 2021, 21:18

ML to enter a 3 day lockdown from today. This madness needs to stop time to just move on.

Source please?

SHVC

14th Jul 2021, 22:07

Expected to be announced today, just news reports but I would believe it.

blubak

14th Jul 2021, 22:30

So whom exactly will Scotty be on the phone to and how exactly will they be conjuring up "those doses". Manufacturing a vaccine is not like bottling water or making dunny paper.

Pfizer takes a minimum of 60 days to produce a batch of vaccine, AstraZeneca takes a minimum of 90 days. And those timelines are only achievable if all elements of the supply chain fall exactly into place. Presently, one of the critical supply chain elements are the vials.

Add to that the annoying reality that production is pretty much at capacity currently due to the global demand and, in any event, you can only ramp up as fast as the weakest link in the supply chain will allow.

The vaccine then has to be shipped and there's a complication with shipment protocols - AstraZeneca is shipped chilled and must not be frozen; Pfizer on the other is shipped frozen and must not be thawed. In other words, co-shipping to maximise the efficiency of limited refrigerated shipping assets is problematic.

Of course, the other issue now is the fallout from the AstraZeneca pile-on. Thanks to the likes of Palaszczuk's and Young's politicisation of the AstraZeneca vaccine, there are now doses of that vaccine available that nobody wants. I don't know about other states but Queensland now has a growing surplus of AstraZeneca doses because people are eschewing it and waiting for the opportunity to get Pfizer shots.

So, is a phone call is likely to fix it - you could ask Kevin07, I guess.
I had my 1st az shot in early june & had to wait 4 days for an appointment time even though it was a walk in centre however now 'walk in' means exactly that,there is no waiting time.
I think this is exactly what is happening across the country due to as you say the panic put into people by morons such as the chook & young.

Icarus2001

14th Jul 2021, 22:54

ML to enter a 3 day lockdown from today. This madness needs to stop time to just move on.

Simply untrue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/victoria-covid-sydney-two-transmission-control-restrictions/100293522

blubak

14th Jul 2021, 23:01

Simply untrue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/victoria-covid-sydney-two-transmission-control-restrictions/100293522
Well hopefully that is true. I think most of us can cope with mask wearing & less people in ur home if it avoids lockdown.
1 big difference between us & nsw is that here in vic the % of people that comply is very high,i guess thats due to what we went through last year.

WingNut60

15th Jul 2021, 00:04

Well hopefully that is true. I think most of us can cope with mask wearing & less people in ur home if it avoids lockdown.
1 big difference between us & nsw is that here in vic the % of people that comply is very high,i guess thats due to what we went through last year.
That's a very polite way of explaining the difference.

But similar here in W.A.
I went down to the local Coles/Woolies late Sunday afternoon just 8 hrs before the mask requirements were lifted.
Rough scan - 99.9% compliance.
That in an area with 3 cases 2 weeks ago.

I guess that most people can see that while wearing masks is massively unpopular and unpleasant, it's a burden that you just have to bear.

SHVC

15th Jul 2021, 00:08

Meanwhile in SY, no gives a rats a$$. people flouting the rules pushing them to their limits not doing as they're told. Early on it was the opposite outbreaks were handled well, whats changed with the ppl?

dr dre

15th Jul 2021, 00:39

I guess that most people can see that while wearing masks is massively unpopular and unpleasant, it's a burden that you just have to bear.

This will annoy the libertarians amongst us, but I solidly support mandatory masks at least indoors until vaccination levels are high enough.

A slight inconvenience but nothing compared to the inconvenience of lockdowns, even half baked ones like Sydney.

Every traveller in an Australian airport or aircraft this year has had to wear a mask the whole time but that didn’t dampen the enthusiasm for domestic travel at all. Make it mandatory across the board and people will just get on with life.

WingNut60

15th Jul 2021, 00:40

.................. whats changed with the ppl?
Underlying supercilious egotism as scattered liberally through the above 5000 posts and every press conference that Beryl has ever made.

SOPS

15th Jul 2021, 01:52

Can’t Gladys just do it properly, and lock the place down? A painter going from Sydney to the regions to paint a house is NOT essential and not a lockdown. It however, does cause spread.

Ladloy

15th Jul 2021, 02:08

This will annoy the libertarians amongst us, but I solidly support mandatory masks at least indoors until vaccination levels are high enough.

A slight inconvenience but nothing compared to the inconvenience of lockdowns, even half baked ones like Sydney.

Every traveller in an Australian airport or aircraft this year has had to wear a mask the whole time but that didn’t dampen the enthusiasm for domestic travel at all. Make it mandatory across the board and people will just get on with life.
A purist Libertarian would support mask mandates. The Libertarian ideology is basically to be able to do what you want if it doesn't affect others. I'm no Libertarian but it always annoys me that Libertarianism gets confused with anarchism.

cLeArIcE

15th Jul 2021, 03:04

1 big difference between us & nsw is that here in vic the % of people that comply is very high,i guess thats due to what we went through last year.
Honestly, the last little Lock down Melbourne had I observed the complete opposite. Most people were Just going about their normal life irrespective of any restrictions. I Was even surprised to see many of the crew that were devout followers of the restrictions last time, not really care anymore. However, there was certainly an element of common sense being applied. E.g. wear a mask around people, don't go visit granny if sick, isolate after a test etc. I couldn't care less if my neighbour has his son over for dinner that lives 5.5km away. But don't have a massive party FFS. Can't we all apply a bit of common sense and get on with life?
On another note, great to see most of the crew rolling their sleeves up and getting the big V. Only met one girl that didn't want it (Incase she lost her medical and couldn't get a payout from her insurance etc). Honestly didn't know what to tell her.

Tucknroll

15th Jul 2021, 03:11

WingNut60

15th Jul 2021, 03:20

A purist Libertarian would support mask mandates. The Libertarian ideology is basically to be able to do what you want if it doesn't affect others. I'm no Libertarian but it always annoys me that Libertarianism gets confused with anarchism.
EVERYONE hates wearing masks. That's not the problem.

The problem is with those who are opposed to being TOLD to wear masks.
And many of those are opposed to just about everything.
And that is definitely a form of anarchy.

ScepticalOptomist

15th Jul 2021, 03:36

blubak

15th Jul 2021, 03:55

Honestly, the last little Lock down Melbourne had I observed the complete opposite. Most people were Just going about their normal life irrespective of any restrictions. I Was even surprised to see many of the crew that were devout followers of the restrictions last time, not really care anymore. However, there was certainly an element of common sense being applied. E.g. wear a mask around people, don't go visit granny if sick, isolate after a test etc. I couldn't care less if my neighbour has his son over for dinner that lives 5.5km away. But don't have a massive party FFS. Can't we all apply a bit of common sense and get on with life?
On another note, great to see most of the crew rolling their sleeves up and getting the big V. Only met one girl that didn't want it (Incase she lost her medical and couldn't get a payout from her insurance etc). Honestly didn't know what to tell her.
Common sense is the real hurdle here particularly for those in the community who dont believe any of this is real or the rules dont apply to them.
Like you say,how hard is it to put a mask on if required to do so or stay away from those you love if you dont feel well.
I worked in the airline industry for 40 + years & know full well the fears of my x workmates still there.
The situation the country finds itself in yet again can be attributed to the selfish people in our world i.e 3 X furniture removalists.

SOPS

15th Jul 2021, 03:56

Reports here in the West that Victoria will lock down at midnight.

Are the going to jail these removal people? Seems like they have caused a big mess.

blubak

15th Jul 2021, 03:59

Reports here in the West that Victoria will lock down at midnight.
Guardian has just reported the same.

Green.Dot

15th Jul 2021, 04:12

Are the going to jail these removal people?

It’s Australia. Of course not.

A small $$ fine that they will never pay should suffice. :ugh::mad:

cloudsurfng

15th Jul 2021, 04:32

Reports here in the West that Victoria will lock down at midnight.

Are the going to jail these removal people? Seems like they have caused a big mess.

if they are white boomers, no chance. Anyone else, I guess it’s possible.

jrfsp

15th Jul 2021, 05:04

SA closing to VIC and not reopening to SE QLD.

Should change this thread to "All borders to close"

Check_Thrust

15th Jul 2021, 05:13

The main issue in NSW is the low testing rates.
went to a Covid test in a ‘red zone’ today and there was no queue, only two other cars on site.

I think the actual rate of Covid in the community is much higher than the daily numbers would suggest.
Low testing rate? Over 58,000 in 24 hours equals low (713 tests per 100,000)? If you want low look at Tasmania where the premier declared 1,500 tests in one day was "very high" (277 tests per 100,000).

Not saying your second statement is wrong though.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1058/screenshot_20210715_150610_chrome_fcff168629367ec18a4a004679 8f14cfbdfe46eb.jpg

Foxxster

15th Jul 2021, 06:32

Victorian media conference at 4.45 think we all know what is coming

5 day state wide Victorian lockdown announced by Chairman Dan. Confirmed.

SHVC

15th Jul 2021, 06:54

Simply untrue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/victoria-covid-sydney-two-transmission-control-restrictions/100293522

This is very true, hate to say I told you so.

Like I said this madness needs to stop.

Tucknroll

15th Jul 2021, 07:07

If everyone is locked in their homes, the testing rate means didly!!

Who is locked in their homes? I met a florist two days ago who thought they were an essential worker.

Foxxster

15th Jul 2021, 07:10

Who is locked in their homes? I met a florist two days ago who thought they were an essential worker.

I think funerals are still allowed,….

cloudsurfng

15th Jul 2021, 07:43

I think funerals are still allowed,….

why were you out? Why were you meeting new people?

that’s the thing. Everyone thinks they’re essential at any time. The dudes cutting trees down around my burn think they’re essential too.

LostWanderer

15th Jul 2021, 07:49

SA closing to VIC and not reopening to SE QLD.

Should change this thread to "All borders to close"

Ooof…this thing just keeps from bad to worse for all commercial aviation in Australia and many of our jobs too if this continues regardless of how deep pockets may have been pre-covid.

None of our airlines will likely be immune from some more severe down sizing to stay alive so long as international travel is dead indefinitely, borders domestically close at a moments notice and punters decide its not worth leaving their state at the risk of ending up on a lockdown or even barred from getting home/to their holiday all together.

I can only speak directly for my neighbours and family, none of them plan to fly anywhere til this stuff is firmly under control and I’m pretty sure that sentiment is only growing from the loads some of my mates (who are thankfully working) have been taking lately.

SHVC

15th Jul 2021, 08:02

Well, I agree 100% even with staff travel no cost of flights with credits still remaining. My wife wanted to go on a holiday in September I didn’t want to risk loosing my money with the hotel because state border closure.

What is the solution?! Faster vaccine uptake? Will that stop the border closures? Personally the Australian mentality with the general population is they want zero, because that’s what they’ve always been told is acceptable. We need state and federal governments with some balls to get our country moving quicker as opposed to the easy “lockdown” solution after all to these premiers locking down is just a word to them it actually doesn’t cost them anything financially and mentally.

jrfsp

15th Jul 2021, 08:13

What we need is greater supply (especially Pfizer), i think the vast majority of people are willing but are as yet unable to get vaccinated.

This push to reduce interval for AZ (to 4 to 6 weeks) seems to be very short sighted, yes it increases efficacy in the short term but is still reduced by 10-20% compared to the 8-12 week interval - even the UK with their covid rate did not reduce the dose interval to what we are doing (in some cases).

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n326

Xeptu

15th Jul 2021, 08:33

What is the solution?! Faster vaccine uptake? Will that stop the border closures? Personally the Australian mentality with the general population is they want zero, because that’s what they’ve always been told is acceptable. We need state and federal governments with some balls to get our country moving quicker as opposed to the easy “lockdown” solution after all to these premiers locking down is just a word to them it actually doesn’t cost them anything financially and mentally.

Faster Vaccine up take means taking more risks, we were warned not to treat this as the silver bullet, but clearly that's what we intend to do, should we even be calling it a vaccine since it's more a pre exposure treatment than a vaccine. What's the solution, no-one coming into Australia should be in our capital cities at all, instead directly to an isolated quarantine facility. Anyone that could be infected like international crew is isolated in all other cases. It's only a matter of time before there's a fatal strain and we seem content to just let it spread far and wide before we even know about it. We've had 18 months to do this and what have we achieved, not very much. The last round of state border closures should have been the last.

Australopithecus

15th Jul 2021, 08:37

Just got advised that I shared a passenger cabin* six days ago with a now confirmed case whom they reckon was infectious. Despite being fully vaccinated the right thing is to of course quarantine for the balance of the fortnight. (Not that I have a choice) I think that as long as we have half-arsed measures we will get a half-arsed result: constant cases with spikes. As soon as the rugby is resolved I expect Queensland borders to shut.

*QF SYD-BNE

Cirressna

15th Jul 2021, 08:39

Faster Vaccine up take means taking more risks, we were warned not to treat this as the silver bullet, but clearly that's what we intend to do, should we even be calling it a vaccine since it's more a pre exposure treatment than a vaccine. What's the solution, no-one coming into Australia should be in our capital cities at all, instead directly to an isolated quarantine facility. Anyone that could be infected like international crew is isolated in all other cases. It's only a matter of time before there's a fatal strain and we seem content to just let it spread far and wide before we even know about it. We've had 18 months to do this and what have we achieved, not very much. The last round of state border closures should have been the last.

And you can go work in that facilty and be isolated from the world indefinetly :ugh: So far all your predictions Xeptu have amounted to garbage.

Foxxster

15th Jul 2021, 08:43

Well have a look at the UK and think ahead when some international travel is allowed. Do you think people are going to be racing to book.

uk now charges for covid tests, I wonder if that will happen here. 200 pounds per person is for two quick tests required if fully vaccinated. So for a family of four that’s 800 pounds or 1,600 dollars. And if you test positive despite being vaccinated, two weeks quarantine.

one wonders if this is how it will play out here. I suspect so.

https://youtu.be/ZTgjIY5oEEA

Xeptu

15th Jul 2021, 08:53

And you can go work in that facilty and be isolated from the world indefinetly :ugh: So far all your predictions Xeptu have amounted to garbage.

Howard Springs works perfectly. Amounts to garbage, until it's not.

SOPS

15th Jul 2021, 10:59

Tasmania is shut to Victoria.

StudentInDebt

15th Jul 2021, 11:28

Well have a look at the UK and think ahead when some international travel is allowed. Do you think people are going to be racing to book.

uk now charges for covid tests, I wonder if that will happen here. 200 pounds per person is for two quick tests required if fully vaccinated. So for a family of four that’s 800 pounds or 1,600 dollars. And if you test positive despite being vaccinated, two weeks quarantine.so.

https://youtu.be/ZTgjIY5oEEAUK isn’t the best place to look at the cost of COVID tests I’m told. They pay well over the odds compared to their European neighbours. My mates in EasyJet, Ryanair and BA tell me that there is plenty of demand despite this.

Icarus2001

15th Jul 2021, 11:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/632861-all-borders-reopen-post11078840.html#post11078840)
Simply untrue.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-...ions/100293522 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-15/victoria-covid-sydney-two-transmission-control-restrictions/100293522)
This is very true, hate to say I told you so.

Like I said this madness needs to stop.

Let us be clear. It was not true when posted. It became true 24 hours later.

SOPS

15th Jul 2021, 12:58

And in the meantime.. all is good with the AFL and NRL and the Olympics.

The above is madness !!

Stick Flying

15th Jul 2021, 13:48

uk now charges for covid tests, I wonder if that will happen here. 200 pounds per person is for two quick tests required if fully vaccinated.

Not quite correct, the UK does not charge for test's. You are required to have a test at one of the designated providers (of which there are many). The costs of the PCR test (required on day 2) has plummeted and can be as low as £42 per test.

Turnleft080

15th Jul 2021, 13:55

Regarding welcome back to the party pal. Us Vics couldn't resist. Why should NSW have all the lime light and Claytons. That's according to PHA-Public Health Advice
Lockdown 5 was inaugurated today to show how to drive the beast into the ground. While NSW have found a new actress that's about to do a Linda Blair, Vic is about to get the charts back with hits like 'I was only Covid 19' and 'Covid on the storm'. This will be punched out while you order a burger/coke, 'oh would you like an AZ/Pfizer with that'.
What about these other tight ass states. Miserable bastards, party poopers. Just like leaving the bar and it's your shout.
Don't tell me your PHAs have obtained proper medicals degrees. Well Vic/Nsw PHAs got theirs from the good old corn flakes packet.
Bring on the next press conference, I want plenty of "according to Public Health Advice" mentions.

unobtanium

15th Jul 2021, 14:00

According to health advice, my gentleman regions are too warm, so from today on I'm going to walk around butt naked. And no I do not have to show proof of medical examption to wear pants.

Seriously is there no leader with a proper backbone in this country.

Torukmacto

15th Jul 2021, 14:53

Daily vaccinations looking good , just cracked %10 fully vaccinated and at this rate it should only take 40 days to vaccinate the next %10 .

SHVC

15th Jul 2021, 19:51

Let us be clear. It was not true when posted. It became true 24 hours later.

No, Illl be clear it was less than 8hrs they were talking about it all morning.

PoppaJo

15th Jul 2021, 19:57

Looks like someone in Gladys Platinum team is leaking details each night to this bloke. Been on the money all week.

97 cases today

https://www.instagram.com/jonbernardk/?hl=en

MickG0105

15th Jul 2021, 21:59

...
uk now charges for covid tests, I wonder if that will happen here. 200 pounds per person is for two quick tests required if fully vaccinated. So for a family of four that’s 800 pounds or 1,600 dollars. And if you test positive despite being vaccinated, two weeks quarantine.
...
Somewhat less expensive than £200 according to this (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/pcr-test-for-travel-buy-online-b1880252.html) recent reporting.

A couple of excerpts:
Gatwick, Heathrow, Manchester and Stansted AirportsThe leading airport Covid-19 testing provider has announced it will drop the price of its PCR and antigen tests.

Collinson, which offers onsite testing at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton, City, Manchester, East Midland and Stansted airports, will cut PCR and lateral flow antigen test prices to £66 and £32 respectively from 17 May.

The provider has also announced it will be rolling out same-day result Lamp tests across the UK’s airports.

These can be used by travellers returning from amber countries in order to leave quarantine early on day five (providing the result is negative)

Here’s the full price list:

PCR Fit to Fly: £66
Lateral Flow (Antigen) Fit to Fly: £32
LAMP Fit to Fly: £68
Antibody Fit to Fly: £32
Green Arrivals PCR: £66
Amber Arrivals PCR: £132
Same Day Test to Release: £76

British AirwaysBritish Airways is offering discounted rates with government-approved Covid-19 testing providers with prices starting from £39.

Options available include:

- Test before you fly (evidence of a negative Covid-19 test at your departure airport)

- Arrivals testing (on arrival in the UK for quarantine tests on days two and eight)

- Test to Release (reducing your time in self-isolation by paying for a Covid-19 test as part of the Government’s ‘Test to Release’ scheme)

Test providers include Qured, Randox, Halo, Medicspot and LetsGetChecked.

Tests can be done at home, at testing centres and selected major UK airports.

Passengers travelling on selected routes can also upload their Covid-19 test results to an app called VeriFLY to certify their test certificates.

Lead Balloon

15th Jul 2021, 22:04

Great news for the economy: More lockdowns!

Who knew a virus would be virulent?

(Methinks Australia has just about reached the end of the beginning.)

Foxxster

15th Jul 2021, 22:16

Yes, they might be cheaper at some places. But you also need to get one before you depart the country you have visited so are at the mercy of what they charge. And if you are on holiday in a country you don’t know, you are not going to want to spend a day finding the cheapest place and then have to get there and back. You will choose the closest, easiest option.

the other points made in the video was the use of the traffic light system for counties. And how they can change overnight. Which is obviously extremely problematic. Both if you are just about to leave or if you are just about to return from one of those countries.

article here about current state of uk testing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9793169/Shocking-525-cost-single-Covid-test-Holidaymakers-confronted-extortionate-prices.html

and regarding the tests. The question arose as to what happens if you are fully vaccinated and one of your family members test positive just before you want to return. You are now stuck for two weeks, having to find and pay for accommodation and the rest and missing two weeks work.

We need to see our governments plans for the future of international travel. Because I suspect it will be a similar fiasco. And if it is anything like that, don’t expect many people to be booking holidays.

MickG0105

15th Jul 2021, 22:31

Who knew a virus would be virulent?

Anyone old enough to have done Latin? Vīrulentus, vīrulenta, vīrulentum as in vīrus (a slime or poison) + -ulentus, -ulenta, -ulentum (full of, replete). It's sort of right there on the tin.

ManillaChillaDilla

15th Jul 2021, 22:49

jrfsp

16th Jul 2021, 01:05

Oh "just the flu again"

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57840825

When will gladys increase the restrictions, clearly the current settings arnt working

SOPS

16th Jul 2021, 01:16

Can we please stop this.. it’s just a bad case of the flu rubbish… because It is not!!!!

And Gladys, can you please stop being stupid and do a proper lockdown. You are putting the whole country at risk.

PoppaJo

16th Jul 2021, 01:27

ruprecht

16th Jul 2021, 01:37

Is it a race yet?

:hmm:

SOPS

16th Jul 2021, 02:13

And there goes QLD. Off limits to Victorians. But it seems NSW is still ok??!!

cloudsurfng

16th Jul 2021, 02:15

Yesterday one of the mad cows said they have all the wastewater data from Nsw and we’re comfortable it was contained within syd. Perhaps there have been some detections in country vic?

Lookleft

16th Jul 2021, 02:19

galdian

16th Jul 2021, 02:21

Gladys Gladys your talking out of your @rse

Further pressure on her leadership as Andrews will cycle in and out of his ‘how it’s done’ lockdown in 5 days.

Surely she will be knifed in the next year.

Time will tell but think anyone honestly expecting just 5 days in Vic are kidding themselves.

jrfsp

16th Jul 2021, 02:31

Time will tell but think anyone honestly expecting just 5 days in Vic are kidding themselves.

Quite possibly, what's becoming evident is that delta strain spreads far too quick for any states contact tracing, but going hard and fast is best option.

WA and NT did this for the delta strain and essentially did a lockdown after the 1st case almost. It still all comes back to the intl border leaks

jrfsp

16th Jul 2021, 02:37

Is it a race yet?

:hmm:

The race is near the end except we missed the starting gun

Foxxster

16th Jul 2021, 03:01

And there goes QLD. Off limits to Victorians. But it seems NSW is still ok??!!
I think there are still some NSW AFL teams still to relocate to qld. Plus all the league wives, girlfriends and families

actually it seems the Swans at least went up yesterday. Not sure if any afl teams are outstanding as of today but the wives etc of the league players most certainly are still in nsw wanting to go to qld.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/clubs-on-the-move-as-covid-chaos-hits-afl-20210715-p589v8.html

neville_nobody

16th Jul 2021, 03:23

This has been an unmitigated failure of leadership starting at the top. The pain caused to all by poor policy decisions is decimating our country. The current loop of failure and blameshifting by our " Leaders " is simply shamefull.Pi$$ them all off and start again.

The only way to fix it would be to convene Federal Parliament and pass a bill for the State Borders to be Federally Controlled. It would then be WW3 between the State Labor Parties and the Liberals. There would probably be a constitutional challenge in the High Court which could go anywhere. Canberra was angling to take control of the borders in the beginning but that was ended by the Clive Palmer Court case.

SOPS

16th Jul 2021, 04:11

DHC8 Driver

16th Jul 2021, 04:55

The only way to fix it would be to convene Federal Parliament and pass a bill for the State Borders to be Federally Controlled. It would then be WW3 between the State Labor Parties and the Liberals. There would probably be a constitutional challenge in the High Court which could go anywhere. Canberra was angling to take control of the borders in the beginning but that was ended by the Clive Palmer Court case.

Please do yourself a favour and read the Australian Constitution.

https://www.aph.gov.au/constitution

jrfsp

16th Jul 2021, 04:57

Australia looks to be joining the list of once successful countries in managing the pandemic, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam etc.

We become too complacent and did not proactively foresee emerging strains and change our management as appropriate....and the management have disappeared...

neville_nobody

16th Jul 2021, 05:13

please do yourself a favor and read the Australian Constitition

In relation to what specifically?

MickG0105

16th Jul 2021, 05:33

In relation to what specifically?
Section 51 would be a good place to start. Anything that is not specifically listed in S.51 remains a state, rather than federal, matter. You'll note that health is not listed in S.51. Lockdowns, travel and gathering restrictions, mask mandates and the like are being dealt with by the states as directions under their respective public health acts. The High Court has already upheld the states' constitutional rights in that regard.

In any event, how would Federal legislation overriding state-based restrictions, like border closures or mask mandates, work? Those matters are being enforced, by and large, by state police. Are you going to send in the Army to stop the various state police enforcing state legislation?

theheadmaster

16th Jul 2021, 05:37

In relation to what specifically?
I suspect it is a reference to section 51.
The federal parliament only has powers to pass legislation with regard to the specific powers granted in section 51. If it is not covered in section 51, it is the domain of the state governments.

Lead Balloon

16th Jul 2021, 05:42

Do yourselves a favour and google “Nationhood Power in Australia”.

If a nationally consistent and effective response to a pandemic is not squarely within the Commonwealth’s executive power, I’ll cartwheel nude down Northbourne Avenue.

It’s just that Scotty wants to be able to spread the blame.

Lead Balloon

16th Jul 2021, 06:04

And to anticipate the inevitable…

Do yourselves a favour and google ‘vertical fiscal balance in Australia’. The Commonwealth doesn’t need to use brute physical force against the states. It can (and does) use brute fiscal force.

“The result of the limitations on state taxing power is that the Commonwealth collects the money through taxes, and distributes that money to states. The power to distribute funds to states, on conditions, is contained in Section 96 of the Australian Constitution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_96_of_the_Australian_Constitution). As a result, the sphere of Commonwealth power has expanded through dictating policy through conditional grants. This limits the autonomy and power of the states in controlling policy.”

If you’re going to advocate reading the Constitution, best to read the Constitution noting that most of the law is between the lines.

Turnleft080

16th Jul 2021, 06:15

Section 51. Couldn't find the bit where it should read, we will never put the fear of god, or threaten any fear with all constituents.
Dan's eyes lit up with gold. So in today's press conference quote "a 5 day lockdown is better than a 5 week lockdown or even better than a 5 month lockdown".
Good job Commonwealth.

blubak

16th Jul 2021, 06:28

Fast developing situations. As from midnight, you are not allowed to enter WA from Victoria AT ALL. Even if you are from WA. West Australians are been told to come home now!!!

I think it’s time to stop all international arrivals until proper quarantine centres can be built. Every time we get a leak, it’s from overseas. And international flight crew should be provided with facilities airside at every airport.
Int arrivals are definitely a problem however in their defence the leak is usually caused by unsuitable quarantine facilities or people working here such as transport drivers or removalists for example who decide the rules that apply to them dont suit them.
I can understand to some extent the govt saying the information they need to get from these people is crucial to contact tracing & fining them will make them lie etc but at some point the excuses have to stop & offenders need to be dealt the consequences.
These selfish few are throwing the livlihoods of millions of people into turmoil right now & unfortunately it will happen again when somebody else decides the rules arent for them🤦‍♂️

PoppaJo

16th Jul 2021, 06:29

I think it’s time to stop all international arrivals until proper quarantine centres can be built. Every time we get a leak, it’s from overseas. And international flight crew should be provided with facilities airside at every airport.
The Limo driver who started all this was transporting a FedEx crew of 3. Not pax ops.

When Dan halted Pax flights, the cargo ops still continued. Risk still there. Can’t stop those flights coming and going.

neville_nobody

16th Jul 2021, 06:31

Section 51 would be a good place to start. Anything that is not specifically listed in S.51 remains a state, rather than federal, matter. You'll note that health is not listed in S.51. Lockdowns, travel and gathering restrictions, mask mandates and the like are being dealt with by the states as directions under their respective public health acts. The High Court has already upheld the states' constitutional rights in that regard.

In any event, how would Federal legislation overriding state-based restrictions, like border closures or mask mandates, work? Those matters are being enforced, by and large, by state police. Are you going to send in the Army to stop the various state police enforcing state legislation?

No I wasn't arguing that. The only thing they could do is attempt to get back control of the State Borders federally. That could help the airlines tremendously. I would agree that there is nothing the Feds can do about local State of Emergency Powers and enforcement it's a State matter.
From what I have read the Border issue is still a open question which hasn't really been contested and as usual 6 Lawyers have 8 opinions on the matter so it really depends on who you are asking. The current Federal Government hasn't really challenged the States over Border Control even though there are provisions in Section 117 & 92 that would suggest freedom of movement but these aren't absolute. Since noone is going to make a challenge I would suggest it will stand as is.

My original point is that really nothing can be done as all the States are running their own show hence the appearance that there is no leadership. As Lead Balloon suggests it may be a deliberate strategy.

Foxxster

16th Jul 2021, 06:36

The Limo driver who started all this was transporting a FedEx crew of 3. Not pax ops.

When Dan halted Pax flights, the cargo ops still continued. Risk still there. Can’t stop those flights coming and going.

not to mention the big Victorian outbreak was caused by guards having sex with people in quarantine. A dedicated quarantine station would not have stopped that either. Or the northern beaches outbreak.

the more you look into the practicality of a dedicated quarantine station, the more you see it faces the same or more issues than hotel quarantine. It only takes one person, like the limo driver who has set off this latest fiasco. And as said above that was from a freight crew. So that would not have been stopped either. In fact I don’t think any of the outbreaks would have been stopped.

jrfsp

16th Jul 2021, 06:40

not to mention the big Victorian outbreak was caused by guards having sex with people in quarantine. A dedicated quarantine station would not have stopped that either. Or the northern beaches outbreak.

the more you look into the practicality of a dedicated quarantine station, the more you see it faces the same or more issues than hotel quarantine. It only takes one person, like the limo driver who has set off this latest fiasco. And as said above that was from a freight crew. So that would not have been stopped either. In fact I don’t think any of the outbreaks would have been stopped.

Yes, it still only needs one person to undo it all, but Howard Springs is the only place in the country not to have issues.....that in itself should be proof enough.

But yes the limo driver guy would still have happened....although the fedex crew is still only "the most likely theory"

Foxxster

16th Jul 2021, 06:48

Yes, it still only needs one person to undo it all, but Howard Springs is the only place in the country not to have issues.....that in itself should be proof enough.

But yes the limo driver guy would still have happened....although the fedex crew is still only "the most likely theory"

to date Howard springs has not had any issues. Let’s see how they go with the new staff and now taking larger numbers of international arrivals from highly infected countries.

MickG0105

16th Jul 2021, 07:22

Do yourselves a favour and google “Nationhood Power in Australia”.

The top search response is for the Australian Parliament House's Parliamentary Paper No 63 - Commonwealth Executive Power and Accountability Following Williams (No 2) (https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedures/pops/pop63/c07) (where Williams (No 2) is Williams v Commonwealth (No. 2) (2014) 252 CLR 416, as opposed to Williams v Commonwealth (2012) 248 CLR 156 (Williams (No. 1)).

Apart from the problem that "nationhood power" is essentially a legal construct that sits outside of the Constitution, there's prior High Court precedent, specifically Williams (Nos 1 and 2), that has found that the concept of a "nationhood power" does not trump the the division of legislative responsibilities spelled out in S.51. In the cases where the High Court has found that the "nationhood power" provides a legitimate basis for the Commonwealth exercising a power not otherwise articulated it has been largely related to S.61 - for example, Davis v Commonwealth (1988) 166 CLR 97 regards the Commonwealth's power to establish the Australian Bicentennial Authority.

Then there's the matter of what exactly is "nationhood power"? The High Court has found that it is an implied executive power derived, in part, from Australia’s national status. And the only reason that the concept of "nationhood power" gets a run is that when the Constitution Act was passed in 1901, there were certain external national powers that Australia could not at that time exercise. For example, at the time Australia could not declare war or enter treaties. It was only after the retreat of the Crown through things like the Imperial Conferences of 1926 and 1930, the passage of the Statute of Westminster and the corresponding Australian legislation, the Statute of Westminster (Adoption) Act, and finally the Australia Acts, that Australia had the opportunity to fully exercise external powers.

With regards to what exactly falls under "nationhood power", the High Court routinely relies on a definition provided by Justice Mason in Victoria v Commonwealth and Hayden (the AAP Case) (1975) 134 CLR 338; specifically he describd it as ‘a capacity to engage in enterprises and activities peculiarly adapted to the government of a nation and which cannot otherwise be carried on for the benefit of the nation'. It's often referred to as 'peculiarly adapted' test although the 'which cannot otherwise be carried on' element is also important.

On the basis that a determination on how best to manage health matters had been made at the outset of federation, there's an argument that the 'peculiarly adapted' test was done and dusted 120 years ago - the determination was that the Commonwealth was not 'peculiarly adapted' to manage the nation's health, that would be an activity that would be 'otherwise be carried on for the benefit of the nation' by the states. The fact that that arrangement was tested by a pandemic less than two decades later could be seen as an argument in its favour.

Further, without having to invoke "nationhood power" to support a Federal power grab, there are a range of mechanisms to provide for a nationally coordinated and effective response to national health emergencies, things like the Australian Health Ministers’ Advisory Council, the Australian Health Protection Principal Committee, the Advisory Committee on Vaccines and the like.

If a nationally consistent and effective response to a pandemic is not squarely within the Commonwealth’s executive power, I’ll cartwheel nude down Northbourne Avenue.

That'd be a matter for the High Court - just in case, you would probably want a summer hearing on the matter.

LapSap

16th Jul 2021, 07:33

Yes, it still only needs one person to undo it all, but Howard Springs is the only place in the country not to have issues.....that in itself should be proof enough.

But yes the limo driver guy would still have happened....although the fedex crew is still only "the most likely theory"

I seem to recall one woman scaling the fence at Howard Springs in the earlier part of the pandemic and started heading into Darwin.
Just one case... but as you say....

SHVC

16th Jul 2021, 07:33

I cant wait for Monday, this will most certainly be a test of Liberal Vs Labor C-19 delta strain battle techniques, after all C-19 is more political than medical now.

Will Gladys lock down thats not a lock down because everyone is still out and about work? AMA already saying SY could face indefinite lock down but Gladys saying SY is in lock down so is it really a lock down because I can still go buy tracksuit pants at Rebal as they're essential, or, Dan quick snap sharp circuit breaker for 5 days where literally all of ML only leave home to buy food win this battle.

MickG0105

16th Jul 2021, 08:00

From what I have read the Border issue is still a open question which hasn't really been contested and as usual 6 Lawyers have 8 opinions on the matter so it really depends on who you are asking. The current Federal Government hasn't really challenged the States over Border Control even though there are provisions in Section 117 & 92 that would suggest freedom of movement but these aren't absolute. Since noone is going to make a challenge I would suggest it will stand as is.

The s 92 argument was tested in Palmer v WA. All five High Court Justices found unanimously that the state's border closure did not infringe the constitutional limitation in s 92. So, on that front, the question is closed. No one has brought a s 117 case and on the basis that the High Court closed out on s 92, arguably the stronger case, it's unlikely that anyone will chance their arm there.

highflyer40

16th Jul 2021, 08:14

Who is locked in their homes? I met a florist two days ago who thought they were an essential worker.

Ha! Here in the UK the first lockdown when schools were closed to all but essential children in a school of 180 kids there were 12 children who came to school because BOTH their parents were essential workers.

The last one in January when they closed schools they had 120 children still coming to school as the parents classed themselves as essential.

One runs a cafe. One is a photographer. One in marketing. It was just nuts, and nothing the school could do as the governments list of “essential workers” was so broad and open to interpretation.

Foxxster

16th Jul 2021, 08:50

Also in the uk.. I think we can forget international travel for 2021, and 2022.

https://youtu.be/kU-dxdxizKk

ruprecht

16th Jul 2021, 10:27

The last one in January when they closed schools they had 120 children still coming to school as the parents classed themselves as essential.

One runs a cafe. One is a photographer. One in marketing. It was just nuts, and nothing the school could do as the governments list of “essential workers” was so broad and open to interpretation.

Well, 2 out of those 3 sound like small businesses. Maybe, just maybe, they were quite happy with the first lockdown to “flatten the curve” because “we were all in this together” and watched their savings deplete while their friends who could work from home were minimally affected. Now they’re probably at the end of their tether, both emotionally and financially, and they figure they might as well try and make some money while they can.

There are only so many times you can ask the same sector of society to pay for the pandemic before they tell you to shove it.

Turnleft080

16th Jul 2021, 11:17

That sector represents 12 million people. Half the country shut down. How much longer can that last?

One thing about the virus. Even if you record Zero cases, It's still out there. It hides it lurks it want's to spread i.e. sewage water. That's it's job.
The faster it spreads the faster it will dissipate. The longer you lockdown the longer the pandemic will continue. Tell that to the CHOs.
Weather we are 50/60/70/80% vaccinated it's still going to go ballistic and it must in order for it to go. The other variants
have just about infected as much as they can and are now dissipating. i.e. UK now have 98% Delta. USA have 58% Delta and climbing.
We are not hearing about the other variants because they have come and gone or going.