All borders to reopen.

[WingNut60]

And just in, from the West Australian newspaper :-

Huge number of West Aussies who still back hard border
Support for WA’s hard border remains almost as high as it was a year ago, with the overwhelming majority of West Australians backing Premier Mark McGowan’s stance.

[dr dre]

And just in, from the West Australian newspaper :-

I’ve noticed The West has a habit of putting loaded headlines on paywalled articles as a draw card to get you to subscribe, and then the article text usually paints a less sensationalist picture. I’d really like to know the specifics of the article and the exact questions the poll asked.

I would assume the questions asked were referring to the situation when the survey was conducted, which was probably over the last few weeks, whilst the double vax rate was only 50%. It will be a different story at 80%.

A question like “do you support a border closure now whilst infections in NSW and Victoria remain high?” is going to get a different response to “do you support support border closures once WA vaccination levels are higher?”.

In a way, as the headline indicates support for the “stance” of the government, as the government is making tangible moves to get ready for reopening then I guess 82% support it according to that headline? Even today there was more talk about this (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-15/wa-covid-rules-will-change-as-necessary-when-border-reopens/100541858), getting the populace used to it.

[WingNut60]

I’ve noticed The West has a habit of putting loaded headlines on paywalled articles as a draw card to get you to subscribe, and then the article text usually paints a less sensationalist picture.


It'd take more than that to get me to pay money to read their opinionated drivel.

My take is that most people in WA are happy to leave things as they are for now with an expectation that "opening up" is not that far off anyway.
It has been like this for eighteen months. A couple more is not really intolerable.

I think that the estimation of the extent to which people are yearning for travel, inter-state or international, is over-blown.

As for those busting a gut to get to Bali, have you considered what you're going to do for insurance?
Or to get a bed in a Bali hospital if you need it?
Or to get a flight home if you're Covid-blown or otherwise infected with some unidentified disease?

[ruprecht]

Huge number of West Aussies who still back hard border
Support for WA’s hard border remains almost as high as it was a year ago, with the overwhelming majority of West Australians backing Premier Mark McGowan’s stance.


The trick is asking the right questions.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6GSKwf4AIlI

[Ladloy]

1.

2. The vaccine uptake was low due to supply being diverted to NSW. The uptake of the available vaccine in the state is rated as “Fully Utilised” with little to no spare available in the last Health Department weekly update (page 18 (https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/10/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-11-october-2021.pdf))

Diverted to Sydney*. There are alarmingly low vaccine rates in regional NSW and anecdotally I know people who booked two months ago only getting their first this week.

[KRviator]

Oh, Gee, McGoose, whodathunkit...You lock out hundreds, if not thousands, of FIFO employees and production goes down...:ugh:Rio Tinto cuts iron ore shipments target amid worker shortage
Mining giant Rio Tinto has slashed its full-year target for shipments of the steel-making raw material iron ore as a severe labour shortage across Western Australia causes project delays.

The mining giant told investors on Friday it now expected to ship between 320 million tonnes and 325 million tonnes of iron ore – Australia’s biggest export – during the 12 months to December 31 after previously targeting as much as 340 million tonnes.

Rio largely attributed the downgrade to delays in commissioning new greenfield mines and mine-expansion projects due to the “tight labour market in WA”. Mining industry leaders say the state’s labour shortage has been exacerbated by coronavirus-related travel restrictions reducing mobility between states. Meanwhile, miners are also having to compete harder for skilled and experienced workers amid a government-backed construction boom on the east coast.

Production has also slowed down across Rio’s operations as the miner puts enhanced focus on Indigenous heritage issues following its ill-fated destruction of the ancient Juukan Gorge rock shelters.
Much of the increase in mining profits was driven by iron ore prices, which climbed well above $US200 a tonne earlier this year. Rio Tinto chief executive Jakob Stausholm on Friday said the third quarter had demonstrated the resilience of Rio’s workforce in dealing with ongoing COVID-19 challenges, but acknowledged it had been “another difficult quarter operationally”.

“Despite improving versus the prior quarter, we recognise the opportunity to raise our performance,” Mr Stausholm said. “We have consequently modestly adjusted our guidance.” Rio’s third-quarter iron ore shipments were 83.4 million tonnes, an increase of 9 per cent on the previous quarter, but 4 per cent lower than the same time last year.

The boom delivered huge profits and bumper dividends across the resources industry and helped bolster Australia’s finances during the depths of the COVID-19 crisis. In 2020-21, iron ore accounted for an extraordinary $150 billion in export earnings.

However, the commodity is now under mounting pressure as Beijing deepens production cuts across its steel mills to curb emissions from one of its worst-polluting industries. After reaching an all-time high of $US230 a tonne earlier this year, iron ore has had its price nearly cut in half and is now below $US120 a tonne. Source (https://www.watoday.com.au/business/companies/rio-tinto-cuts-iron-ore-shipments-target-amid-worker-shortage-20211015-p5908f.html)Gotta love some of the comments in that article: "the third quarter had demonstrated the resilience of Rio’s workforce in dealing with ongoing COVID-19 challenges" - No, what you actually mean is your interstate FIFO workforce that cannot afford to be locked out of the state has all but had a gun held to their head to ensure they remain in WA during their RnR so they can still pay their mortgage - many of these staff, from sparkies to boilermakers through to the ISS staff in the camp have not seen their partners or children in months, and in a few cases close to a year.

And Rio are not the only ones, either...They just look to be the first ones to publicly acknowledge the downgrade...Rio Tinto's one saving grace is they have robot trains - A significant percentage of the rail crews up there, from all 4 major miners, come from outside WA.

[Transition Layer]

Not a particular fan of McGowan, However your saying that people in WA are "inbred bogans" says more about you than it does about us.

When 90+% of the population in WA supported McGowan’s isolationist approach to covid, it’s hard not to direct frustration towards them.

And now here I’m getting the classic “if you don’t like it…leave!” Hilarious :hmm:

[Buster Hyman]

Like the U.S., do you mean?

Or do you just mean a republic where the most populous states can impose their self-proclaimed superiority over the smaller states?
Oh God no! I mean where there are no States at all.

[SOPS]

When 90+% of the population in WA supported McGowan’s isolationist approach to covid, it’s hard not to direct frustration towards them.

And now here I’m getting the classic “if you don’t like it…leave!” Hilarious :hmm:

May I ask.. why are you frustrated, Because we are not locked down, don’t have to wear masks.. can go to the pub.. what frustrates you?

[Clare Prop]

When 90+% of the population in WA supported McGowan’s isolationist approach to covid, it’s hard not to direct frustration towards them.

And now here I’m getting the classic “if you don’t like it…leave!” Hilarious :hmm:
No, I said why don't you focus your bitterness and hatred elsewhere. Perhaps see someone about the problem you have that means you are so consumed with anger and spite about things you have no control over that you can't help yourself post over and over again anonymously insulting strangers about it..
It is very tedious having to read you go on and on about how much you loathe Western Australia, its Premier and the "inbred bogans" who live here.

[Chronic Snoozer]

May I ask.. why are you frustrated, Because we are not locked down, don’t have to wear masks.. can go to the pub.. what frustrates you?

Because the reason WA is so strict has to do with a teetering health system.

[Chronic Snoozer]

No, I said why don't you focus your bitterness and hatred elsewhere. Perhaps see someone about the problem you have that means you are so consumed with anger and spite about things you have no control over that you can't help yourself post over and over again anonymously insulting strangers about it..
It is very tedious having to read you go on and on about how much you loathe Western Australia, its Premier and the "inbred bogans" who live here.

How ironic. Mark McGowan, the New South Welshman? Seems his electorate is doing well in the vaccination race, fewer than 50% fully vaxxed. But hey that’s fine, we can all wait while people exercise their rights.

[Chronic Snoozer]

The trick is asking the right questions.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6GSKwf4AIlI

Where is the like button PpRuNe moderators!?

[WingNut60]

........... But hey that’s fine, we can all wait while people exercise their rights.

I think that's about right.
Most West Aussies wants to see this all over as soon as possible.
And the comfortable life that we have been living has dis-incentivised far too many of the younger cohort from lining up.

But any possible benefits to be had by opening up prematurely are insufficient to justify throwing grandma onto the cooking fire.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I think that's about right.
Most West Aussies wants to see this all over as soon as possible.
And the comfortable life that we have been living has dis-incentivised far too many of the younger cohort from lining up.

But any possible benefits to be had by opening up prematurely are insufficient to justify throwing grandma onto the cooking fire.

Grandma’s been vaxxed. Set a date, make the vaccine available. If you’re not vaxxed in time problem belongum u

[neville_nobody]

May I ask.. why are you frustrated, Because we are not locked down, don’t have to wear masks.. can go to the pub.. what frustrates you?

Maybe something to do with the economic impact of a hard closed border, North Korean style approach to governance. If I took away all your income for a few years and put you on the dole I think you would feel differently about it.

Anyway WA is going to struggle next year if they want to keep it up. Rio have just started with production slow down due lack of staff. If they are having problems good luck finding anyone to work on a farm or in a remote town next year. If they don't want to open up it could blowup their whole economy as it grinds to halt. All very well to have lots of fully paid office workers sipping their morning latte but at the end of the day without people at the literal coalface nothing happens regardless of which industry you are in.

[volare_737]

Maybe something to do with the economic impact of a hard closed border, North Korean style approach to governance. If I took away all your income for a few years and put you on the dole I think you would feel differently about it.

Anyway WA is going to struggle next year if they want to keep it up. Rio have just started with production slow down due lack of staff. If they are having problems good luck finding anyone to work on a farm or in a remote town next year. If they don't want to open up it could blowup their whole economy as it grinds to halt. All very well to have lots of fully paid office workers sipping their morning latte but at the end of the day without people at the literal coalface nothing happens regardless of which industry you are in.


You are spot on !!! I can tell you how frustrating it is to speak to people here in WA and they can't see past there nose !!!

[Icarus2001]

It is very tedious having to read you go on and on about how much you loathe Western Australia, its Premier and the "inbred bogans" who live here.

My bolding.
Is someone making you read his/her posts?

[aviation_enthus]

May I ask.. why are you frustrated, Because we are not locked down, don’t have to wear masks.. can go to the pub.. what frustrates you?

The way this statement is made by many on here, it’s as if you believe you are the only place on the planet that has such “freedoms”.

Maybe within Australia you are doing better, but come the end of this year, I’d argue NSW (and maybe VIC in January) are going to have pretty similar quality of life, yet living with COVID.

Plenty of countries around the world are allowed to do all of the things you mention RIGHT NOW, with Covid cases…. Almost all of Europe is like this. The reality is once high rates of vaccination are achieved, the world moves on.

A lot of EU countries pushed vaccinations with various measures and then set a date to open up. McGowan needs to do the same. The people of WA need a reason to hurry and get vaccinated. At the moment I don’t think they have one.

PS, if you think WA will always be able to live like this without getting vaccinated, you’re living in La La Land. It’s inevitable that COVID will eventually get in. Same applies for QLD and the other states. So for this reason they also need to hurry up!!

[Xeptu]

I have 2 remote groups in SA and WA scheduled for their first dose on the 20th and 22nd Oct, these were scheduled weeks ago back in August. I was alarmed at how far away that was, now that the time approaches I worry that something goes wrong on the day. There has been no hesitancy but I'm aware it exists in the suburbs of the capital cities, you guys in Perth would know more about that.
I believe Marshall Stevens and Emperor McGowan are right not to set a date for opening, it's too crushing when it doesn't happen, one just needs to look at NSW to see what happens.
As we approach 80% double dosed I would expect more urgency around the need to get vaxxed for opening the borders and I would expect that to occur around mid November.

As I see it all going well, I should expect SA WA and the NT will open their borders about mid December and I would expect scomo to open the International border at the same time.

The best thing you guys can do is encourage the deliberate stragglers in the burbs particularly the teenagers, "come on get it done the virus will be here for Christmas" lets try not to have any covid illness until after the new year.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I believe Marshall Stevens and Emperor McGowan are right not to set a date for opening, it's too crushing when it doesn't happen, one just needs to look at NSW to see what happens.
As we approach 80% double dosed I would expect more urgency around the need to get vaxxed for opening the borders and I would expect that to occur around mid November.

Yes it's much better we have vague statements like this.

Daddy says.... (https://7news.com.au/travel/mark-mcgowan-says-was-international-border-wont-reopen-according-to-pms-timeline-c-4123738)

I feel for anyone that has a business and just wants to get on with it. Zoom meetings don't cut it - a lot of business just has to be done face to face.

[compressor stall]

May I ask.. why are you frustrated, Because we are not locked down, don’t have to wear masks.. can go to the pub.. what frustrates you?

Let me guess, you haven't been to North America, Europe or the Middle East in the last 6 months? 'Cos they have those three things too.

[Angle of Attack]

It’s all about the woefully inadequate WA health system, it’s not just the last several years it’s the last few decades. I’ve lived in every State and Territory except Tassie in the last 25 years and without an inch of doubt WA has the absolute worst public health system in the whole country. McGowan is just scared, that’s why he is pursuing his crappy strategy. And for note I lived in Perth for a few years 20 years ago and even then the health system was an absolute joke, totally ineffective. All good to have a nice surplus but pretty **** when you have 18000 hours of ambulance ramping a month…..without Covid…….. don’t ever move to that sand cesspit it has been crap for decades and will be for decades more, especially with Iron ore now tanking and now no workers…..up the proverbial creek without a paddle…Open up and leave the lepers in their own prison. I support WA opening the borders in 2080.

[Thirsty]

“if you don’t like it…leave!” Hilarious :hmm:I hear Poland is accepting refugees from Australia...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhUB0zSohcw

[Koizi]

To move away from the WA bickering, I was wondering about this thought I had comparing the covid case load between SYD and MEL.

Sydney of course is a few weeks ahead of Mel in vax rate, but the case load differences still don't seem to align.

I'm wondering whether the relaxing of restrictions (making gatherings in outdoor settings more available quickly) actually has helped to stop the spread.
I cant help but wonder if the overly tight restrictions in Melbourne are actually pushing the population to meet in the very place they don't want us to - our homes.
Perhaps if even now, we opened outdoor dining etc, residents wouldn't not be forced to have their gatherings behind closed doors in their homes, which is where all our spread it coming from.

Maybe a big part of Sydney's success so far is consciously nudging the population into the great outdoors - or at least the world beyond their cosy homes.

[Lead Balloon]

I think the more-likely explanation is that many Melbournians were well and truly 'over it' a long time ago and there was widespread non-compliance with the 'tight restrictions'. But I have no hard evidence to support that.

[Koizi]

I think the more-likely explanation is that many Melbournians were well and truly 'over it' a long time ago and there was widespread non-compliance with the 'tight restrictions'. But I have no hard evidence to support that.

No doubt.

But surely someone in the ivory tower could sense the attitudes of the people wandering around below.
Rather than fighting that with tougher restrictions, which only promotes further non-compliance, they could have let people be more free outdoors with probably a far less case load than they have now.

[compressor stall]

I think the more-likely explanation is that many Melbournians were well and truly 'over it' a long time ago and there was widespread non-compliance with the 'tight restrictions'. But I have no hard evidence to support that.
Plenty of mk 1 eyeball evidence, as well as the amount of traffic on the roads and volumes of people out and about. Has been like that for last 2 months. Taxi drivers reporting traffic much much busier than last year's lockdown, at the same time of year roughly.

[Icarus2001]

As for those busting a gut to get to Bali, have you considered what you're going to do for insurance? International travel insurance is readily available. Have a look.

[SHVC]

So Bali is opening to international country’s, which are questionable. Has Australia pi$$ed off Indonesia? They won’t let Aussies in now.

[Koizi]

They won’t let Aussies in now.

Perhaps it's more a case of: we won't open to them yet, so why put us on the list.
5 days of quarantine isn't all that appealing anyway.

Whereas if you look at Fiji, they know Australia is planning to start flying there and as such we are on their list. No quarantine required (in either direction).

[Ladloy]

To move away from the WA bickering, I was wondering about this thought I had comparing the covid case load between SYD and MEL.

Sydney of course is a few weeks ahead of Mel in vax rate, but the case load differences still don't seem to align.

I'm wondering whether the relaxing of restrictions (making gatherings in outdoor settings more available quickly) actually has helped to stop the spread.
I cant help but wonder if the overly tight restrictions in Melbourne are actually pushing the population to meet in the very place they don't want us to - our homes.
Perhaps if even now, we opened outdoor dining etc, residents wouldn't not be forced to have their gatherings behind closed doors in their homes, which is where all our spread it coming from.

Maybe a big part of Sydney's success so far is consciously nudging the population into the great outdoors - or at least the world beyond their cosy homes.
Right now Sydney case numbers are low because testing is so low. 69k tests yesterday, it was 150k a day a week or so ago. Give it a few weeks and the case rate will shoot up considerably. Hopefully hospital rates stay low.

[hoss58]

I hear Poland is accepting refugees from Australia...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhUB0zSohcw
I only watched about the first 2 minutes of this clip but I am really getting pi$$ed of with other countries telling us how badly OZ has stuffed up our management of covid.

There isn't a country in the world that has nailed covid management 100%

A quick look at some stats show:

Poland total cases circa 2.9 mil deaths circa 76000 deaths per million of population 2014

Australia cira 140,000 /1516/ 59 respectively.

Do Poland or any other country for that matter really have the moral high ground to be telling OZ whats what in terms of covid management.

I realize there are many other factors to consider for example mental health issues and financial stress.

In terms of VIC and NSW there have been some monumental blunders but I doubt Poland haven't made their fair share.

Cheers Hoss58

[WingNut60]

International travel insurance is readily available. Have a look.
Can you perhaps point one out that offers Medivac to Oz in the case you come down with Covid because that's what you'll need for Bali.

Not that they were ever much better but there are now so many ifs, buts and exceptions in the policies that the only foreseeable use for most is if you develop diarrhea.

[43Inches]

Yes it's poor form to say we are restricting 'freedoms' when you sacrificed 76,000 of your elderly and vulnerable for yours. As the quote goes, "Responsibility is the price of Freedom". In a civilised society you have the Freedom to do the right thing, not the Freedom to do anything.

International travel insurance is readily available. Have a look.

I suggest you read the fine print of what's covered in each insurance, Covid ain't new and insurance companies are not suckers, unless it's in reference to them sucking money from your wallet that is.

[KRviator]

Can you perhaps point one out that offers Medivac to Oz in the case you come down with Covid because that's what you'll need for Bali.10 seconds with Google shows Allianz appears to cover you, if you are diagnosed with Covid including a medevac back to Australia. Page 28 of their PDS (https://travel.allianz.com.au/pds) refers, however they won't cover changed travel plans, etc, you must have taken sufficient precautions etc...

[43Inches]

10 seconds with Google shows Allianz appears to cover you, if you are diagnosed with Covid including a medevac back to Australia. Page 28 of their PDS (https://travel.allianz.com.au/pds) refers, however they won't cover changed travel plans, etc, you must have taken sufficient precautions etc...

Be very careful about this statement in the PDS in regard to travel alerts/warnings;

But please note, other terms, conditions, limits and exclusions continue to apply, including (for example) the exclusions set out in section 2.1.2 below and the General Exclusion concerning Travel alerts and other warnings (see page 64 in the General Exclusions section). That means, you will not be covered if you or your travel companion contracted the epidemic or pandemic sickness when you had travelled against an advice or warning by an Australian government and did not take appropriate action to avoid contracting the sickness (for example by delaying travel to the country or part of the country referred to in the warning).

Current advice for travel to USA (travel ban not withsatanding);We continue to advise:

Do not travel (https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/consular-services/travel-advice-explained#level4) to the United States of America, including Alaska, Puerto Rico and the Hawaiian Islands due to the health risks from the COVID-19 pandemic and the significant disruptions to global travel.

Germany;

We continue to advise:

Do not travel (https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/consular-services/travel-advice-explained#level4) to Germany due to the health risks from the COVID-19 pandemic and the significant disruptions to global travel.

UK;

We continue to advise:

Do not travel (https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/consular-services/travel-advice-explained#level4) to the United Kingdom due to the health risks from the COVID-19 pandemic and the significant disruptions to global travel.

Again the fine print will catch you. Make sure the travel advice says there are no pandemic health risks (level 1 and level 2 with some caveats). I can't see them dropping the Covid health risks warning for some time in those countries.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Be very careful about this statement in the PDS in regard to travel alerts/warnings;



Current advice for travel to USA (travel ban not withsatanding);

Germany;



UK;



Again the fine print will catch you. Make sure the travel advice says there are no pandemic health risks (level 1 and level 2 with some caveats). I can't see them dropping the Covid health risks warning for some time in those countries.

Which will of course change as soon as the border is open.

[Icarus2001]

So as I said travel insurance is readily available.
Of course there will be COVID exemptions.
Just as there are for motorcycle accidents by unlicensed riders in Bali.
Never seems to stop anyone.

[WingNut60]

10 seconds with Google shows Allianz appears to cover you, if you are diagnosed with Covid including a medevac back to Australia. Page 28 of their PDS (https://travel.allianz.com.au/pds) refers, however they won't cover changed travel plans, etc, you must have taken sufficient precautions etc...
Worth having a look at:

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/our-services/resources/choice-travel-insurance-guide-covid-19
Smart Traveller - Covid (https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/crisis/covid-19-and-travel)

If you're still that keen to get to Bali or wherever then go for it.
Let me know how you get on.

[SHVC]

Right now Sydney case numbers are low because testing is so low. 69k tests yesterday, it was 150k a day a week or so ago. Give it a few weeks and the case rate will shoot up considerably. Hopefully hospital rates stay low.


Thats not entirely correct, before DP eased the restriction there was still 110k + test a day and the numbers were still falling, lord daddy tried to suggest that NSW numbers were falling because of reduced testing even at the time he did say that testing was still 110k.

What we need to do in order to move on and live as covid normal as possible is stop looking or even reporting positive cases that is not important anymore. What is important and is still on a downward trend because no matter how many test are conducted you can’t change these numbers without high vaccination is the ICU, ventilator and hospitalization cases and NSW is still trending down with these no matter what you or any other state gov want to say about it.

[Ladloy]

Thats not entirely correct, before DP eased the restriction there was still 110k + test a day and the numbers were still falling, lord daddy tried to suggest that NSW numbers were falling because of reduced testing even at the time he did say that testing was still 110k.

What we need to do in order to move on and live as covid normal as possible is stop looking or even reporting positive cases that is not important anymore. What is important and is still on a downward trend because no matter how many test are conducted you can’t change these numbers without high vaccination is the ICU, ventilator and hospitalization cases and NSW is still trending down with these no matter what you or any other state gov want to say about it.
While I agree, Sydney vaccination rates are great, sure, but the rest of NSW is still lagging behind. This is partly because their supply has been diverted and now it's ripping through regional areas. So high testing is required for tracing as that will still be required for the short term future, as outlined in the modelling every state is using to go back to 'normal'

[KRviator]

Worth having a look at:

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/our-services/resources/choice-travel-insurance-guide-covid-19
Smart Traveller - Covid (https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/crisis/covid-19-and-travel)

If you're still that keen to get to Bali or wherever then go for it.
Let me know how you get on.Who said anything about me wanting to go to Bali - you're the one who couldn't be asred spending even a few seconds on Google even trying to present a rebuttal to your claim about the availability of travel insurance or the thereof. Personally, I can't think of anywhere I'd be less inclined to visit, if I wanted to socialize with bogans and their screaming kids, I'd go to Rockingham, and I don't need a passport to get there. Yet...

[WingNut60]

Who said anything about me wanting to go to Bali - you're the one who couldn't be asred spending even a few seconds on Google even trying to present a rebuttal to your claim about the availability of travel insurance or the thereof. Personally, I can't think of anywhere I'd be less inclined to visit, if I wanted to socialize with bogans and their screaming kids, I'd go to Rockingham, and I don't need a passport to get there. Yet...
I didn't say "to Bali."
I said "to Bali or wherever..............."

There is a difference.

The rebuttal is in the two links I gave.

[Keg]

Right now Sydney case numbers are low because testing is so low. 69k tests yesterday, it was 150k a day a week or so ago. Give it a few weeks and the case rate will shoot up considerably. Hopefully hospital rates stay low.

The rate of positive tests in NSW has remained relatively stable over the last week or so and continues to sit around the 0.5% mark. Compare that with Victoria which is still in the 2% range and has been for quite some time.

[krismiler]

My travel insurance was due to auto renew last year, and COVID was specifically excluded from the coverage in the new policy. As this was no good to me and I wasn't travelling anyway, I let it lapse and have saved 18 months of premiums so far. With borders gradually opening up, I'll be looking for another policy soon but might start off with single trip rather than annual until things settle down a bit. Some countries want a policy specifically for COVID and a general one might not meet the local requirements.

I go SCUBA diving and have a special policy for this activity as it normally comes under general exclusions in normal travel insurance. It's not worth trying to get it added onto a normal policy and I find a specialised insurer to be much better.

COVID is serious for unvaccinated senior citizens with underlying health conditions, but these people have expensive premiums and don't travel very much anyway. For fully vaccinated under 60s in normal health, the extra cost should be minimal. No doubt the insurers have their actuaries crunching numbers as we speak and suitable policies with terms and conditions will be available soon.

[KRviator]

So, Queensland has finally publicized their roadmap to the border reopening, with dates included.
Queensland border details revealed

At 70 per cent of full vaccination, expected on November 19, fully vaccinated people will be able to enter the state by air, if they have a negative test in the 72 hours beforehand and complete home quarantine for 14 days after arriving.

At 80 per cent, expected on December 17, fully vaccinated people will be allowed in via road or air, as long as they test negative 72 hours beforehand. They will not be required to complete a quarantine period.

Queensland Minister for Health Yvette D’Ath said the December 17 deadline meant the latest people could get vaccinated was six weeks before then to ensure they made the cut-off. Source (https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/australia-covid-news-live-new-freedoms-cases-and-vaccinations/news-story/3fce7058153a931445a771235d354024)Meanwhile, in Wes-Tyrannical Australia:
WA government refuses to release COVID modelling guiding extended border closure decision

The West Australian government is refusing to release the COVID-19 modelling guiding its decision to keep borders closed and coronavirus out for months longer than the rest of Australia. Modelling undertaken by the Department of Health, including scenario planning for what WA might look like once COVID is allowed in, has been supplied to Premier Mark McGowan and Health Minister Roger Cook.

However, a Freedom of Information request to view the reports, lodged by WAtoday in August, was refused under a clause which permits a document provided to an executive body such as cabinet to be kept secret. The documents detail how WA would respond to an outbreak and its future options for managing COVID hospitalisations based on vaccination rates.

A spokeswoman for Mr McGowan’s office did not directly respond to why the government was keeping the state’s modelling under wraps. “It’s important to note that as our experts learn more about the Delta variant and its impact, particularly over east now as communities begin to come out of lockdown, modelling continues to be assessed and updated accordingly,” she said. “When policy decisions are made, the WA government has consistently provided the WA public with the evidence that backs up those decisions.” WA’s hospitals are already in crisis 18 months into the pandemic, even without COVID circulating in the community.

Hospital bed reports obtained by WAtoday for the last week of August showed Perth’s three main hospitals – Royal Perth Hospital, Sir Charles Gardiner Hospital and Fiona Stanley – were full or over capacity most days, with patients waiting hours in the emergency department to be seen and staff shortages plaguing service. The pressure has forced the indefinite cancellation of elective surgeries to free up beds.

Mr McGowan has previously indicated WA was aiming to achieve a jab rate between 80 and 90 per cent for those aged 16 and above, and would open the borders six to eight weeks after that point – likely around February or March. Source (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/wa-government-refuses-to-release-covid-modelling-guiding-extended-border-closure-decision-20211015-p590dc.html)

[ChrisJ800]

I tried making a travel insurance medical claim 2 years ago (annual global cover) when I had a skin cancer removed in Asia and gave up trying to get the money out of the insurers as they kept on requiring more and more proof and doctor letters, not just from Asia but from my GP here in Oz despite me being a year away in Asia. I hope my basic American express insurance will cover me here on in. Not getting any more global cover.

I have three anti vaxer acquaintances in Asia, one just passed away and the other very crook, and another recovered after 2 months but still with long covid symptoms . I will be heading to Philippines early next year fully vaxed, fingers crossed.

[Ladloy]

Qld roadmap outlines an opening a week before Christmas. Tasmania 90%, WA outlining 80 to 90%. Covid normal here we come.

[SHVC]

So, who or what has changed Anna stay away to Anna come my way?! Watching her this morning and she thinks what she has done and said in the past is all forgotten. She even went as far as saying there will be no more border closures to domestic travel.

Lord Daddy will have to lock out QLD now.

[Icarus2001]

So we can visit Queensland, great.

Are their hospitals still only for Queenslanders?

[KRviator]

So, who or what has changed Anna stay away to Anna come my way?! Watching her this morning and she thinks what she has done and said in the past is all forgotten. She even went as far as saying there will be no more border closures to domestic travel.

Lord Daddy will have to lock out QLD now.Today's changes also permit Canberrans to travel to Greater Sydney from November 1 without the need to quarantine when they return, ending confusion over ongoing border arrangements between the two jurisdictions.

"Subject to the public health risk at the time, the ACT will remove the COVID-Affected Area declaration across NSW from 1 November," Mr Barr said. "This means that ACT residents will not have quarantine when they return to the territory from any part of NSW — including Greater Sydney. Source (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-19/changes-to-act-covid19-roadmap-retail-returns/100549602)

Don't forget the ACT - afterall, if those filthy, infected NSWelshmen can freely travel to the ACT, then they cannot, under any circumstances, be allowed to use the ACT as a jumping-off point to get into WA. The way their State Daddy is carrying on, WA will be forced to lock out every state in Australia from around mid-December, if SA, the NT and Tasmania reopen too. As South Australia looks towards reopening to the eastern states at the end of the year, the decision could see its border close in the west.

SA Premier Steven Marshall has previously said the state would shift from statewide border restrictions to locking out localised areas once COVID-19 vaccination rates reach 80 per cent.BHP’s September-quarter output dips on maintenance, train driver shortages (https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-output-dips-on-maintenance-labour-shortages-ng-b882044256z)

In response to that stance, WA Premier Mark McGowan said on Tuesday that he would wait and see what happened but would close the WA-SA border if necessary. "Obviously if South Australia then has community spread of the virus, they may regret that decision," he said. "And if they do, well obviously we'd take health advice, but most likely we would close to that jurisdiction." Source (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-western-australia-updates-mark-mcgowan-says-hard-border-could-stay-until-2022/dd5c71e3-fd5e-4c76-b44b-de6ec5e356ba)

EDIT: and following on from Rio Tinto announcing a major downgrade to their production outlook BHP has now followed suit - and guess what they mentioned? A shortage of Train Driver's - just as I'd put forward here two days ago (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=11127212) - because there are nowhere near enough WA-based FIFO Driver's for the Pilbara operators, all 4 rely on interstate blokes, and it would appear I'm not the only one that has told their employer that I'll be back when the borders reopen...:ugh:

BHP’s September-quarter output dips on maintenance, train driver shortages (https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-output-dips-on-maintenance-labour-shortages-ng-b882044256z) - it's a paywall at The West, but you get the idea...

[Dannyboy39]

It seems to be a question thrown at every country at this point, and it remains relevant here.

Theoretical scenario: I could live with a mate who has an Australian passport (I’m British). We could work in the same office, drive the same car, get the same public transport, go to the same bars and restaurants and the same stadiums. We are both fully vaccinated for months in what is a waning immunity after 6 months.

Come Nov 1, he is accepted across the Australian border yet I am not. Why is that? Is it about a virus?

[ChrisJ800]

It seems to be a question thrown at every country at this point, and it remains relevant here.

Theoretical scenario: I could live with a mate who has an Australian passport (I’m British). We could work in the same office, drive the same car, get the same public transport, go to the same bars and restaurants and the same stadiums. We are both fully vaccinated for months in what is a waning immunity after 6 months.

Come Nov 1, he is accepted across the Australian border yet I am not. Why is that? Is it about a virus?
Yes its because of the virus. There are around 50,000 Australians trying to get home for over 18 months who have priority. Im sure by Christmas or early next year borders will fully open to you. We are behind Europe for vaccination rates as was not helped by EEC blocking supply and government incompetence.

[Dannyboy39]

Yes its because of the virus. There are around 50,000 Australians trying to get home for over 18 months who have priority. Im sure by Christmas or early next year borders will fully open to you. We are behind Europe for vaccination rates as was not helped by EEC blocking supply and government incompetence.
So an Australian is less likely to be infected than a British person who has access to the same locations? Covid doesn’t look at the colour of your passport.

[Fonz121]

So an Australian is less likely to be infected than a British person who has access to the same locations? Covid doesn’t look at the colour of your passport.

I think you're missing the point. Under this new and temporary policy it's not about the risk of having covid, it's about giving Australian's the best possible chance to get home without competing with non-residents for highly sought after seats. I'm sure it will change pretty quickly.

[SOPS]

Yes its because of the virus. There are around 50,000 Australians trying to get home for over 18 months who have priority. Im sure by Christmas or early next year borders will fully open to you. We are behind Europe for vaccination rates as was not helped by EEC blocking supply and government incompetence.

I always wonder about this 50000 people who are trying to get home. The number has never changed. But at Perth airport alone, more than 60000 people have passed through since the pandemic began. I don’t know what the numbers for the other states… but the total would far exceed 50000. I can’t figure out why the number never changes.. there are always 50000 people waiting to get home.

[Dannyboy39]

I think you're missing the point. Under this new and temporary policy it's not about the risk of having covid, it's about giving Australian's the best possible chance to get home without competing with non-residents for highly sought after seats. I'm sure it will change pretty quickly.
No one should be shut out of their own country... it is why the response to this pandemic from the AU government has been so repugnant in this situation.
Its amazing how many return trips and non-resident celebrities have been through the revolving doors (but you can throw this at most governments).

[Obba]

To SOPS:
I agree, the figure stays the same.

Albiet 40k or 50k Australians outside, that seems a large number considering our 'traveling age - ability to live and be overseas' population out of 25m..
And as you say, 'repatriation flights' have been brought about 40k already...!

Something's wrong somewhere...

[KRviator]

I always wonder about this 50000 people who are trying to get home. The number has never changed. But at Perth airport alone, more than 60000 people have passed through since the pandemic began.I'm not sure it's as high as 60,000. BTRE figures for April 2020 - June 2021 show 48,234 international arrivals through Perth, and with your State Daddy demanding the arrivals cap be slashed to only 265 per week (compared to NSW's 215 per day, for example...) that'd probably be under 55,000, and still less than WA's fair share.
I don’t know what the numbers for the other states… but the total would far exceed 50000. I can’t figure out why the number never changes.. there are always 50000 people waiting to get home.The numbers are freely available from the BTRE, but here they are - and no, I don't know why BTRE excludes specific repatriation flights through Darwin and only shows 63 arrivals...
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/730x316/borderpercentages_2e4473ab2a2f1822ddc3880fc04c24ebb84f6e64.j pg
Maybe more Wes-Tyrannical Australian's should be made aware that WA are being jack c*nts (those Ex-ADF folk will recognise this term) and lobby their State Daddy to actually pull their weight. Then again, the way they've carried on, I think I've got more chance of taking home the Powerball jackpot tomorrow...

[aviation_enthus]

I always wonder about this 50000 people who are trying to get home. The number has never changed. But at Perth airport alone, more than 60000 people have passed through since the pandemic began. I don’t know what the numbers for the other states… but the total would far exceed 50000. I can’t figure out why the number never changes.. there are always 50000 people waiting to get home.

And to quote your illustrious leader…..

”some people have been in and out of Australia 8 times!”

Even the Aus govt figures have show that almost 50% of arrivals in 2021 have been NON Australian citizens (movie stars, business people etc).

So halve your 60,000 to 30,000. Out of a city the size of Perth, that’s jack****. Considering some of the remaining 30,000 would be people with lots of cash coming for a holiday to visit family (rich expats), you can reduce that number even further.

I can tell you from personal experience that buying tickets from where we are (UAE) would have cost a minimum of $30,000 AUD, ONE WAY (highest was $45,000) If you wanted to come from the USA, last price I saw was $14,000 USD per ticket.

How many families have that sort of cash lying around?? We certainly don’t. It’s fine if you’re single and the boss is paying (business travel) or even a couple that really needs to get back, but for families, forget it.

Plus to add to this cost, because the government keeps changing the caps, if your flight is rebooked you might have to wait an additional 3-5 months for a new spot. Really helpful if you’ve just moved out in expectation of your flight in a few days. Because you’ll only find out a few days before that you no longer have seats. Then if you try to get a refund a rebook with another airline, you’ll need an ADDITIONAL $30,000+ to book again while you wait for Qatar/EK/Etihad/etc to refund your tickets.

So if you’re wondering why the number of “stranded Aussies” keeps growing, look at what it actually takes (and the money required) to get home. Ask yourself if you would be stuck if that’s what it cost to get back to your own country???

But this has been explained to you (SOPS) many times before and you still don’t seem to understand.

[aviation_enthus]

It seems to be a question thrown at every country at this point, and it remains relevant here.

Theoretical scenario: I could live with a mate who has an Australian passport (I’m British). We could work in the same office, drive the same car, get the same public transport, go to the same bars and restaurants and the same stadiums. We are both fully vaccinated for months in what is a waning immunity after 6 months.

Come Nov 1, he is accepted across the Australian border yet I am not. Why is that? Is it about a virus?

There is no difference between your mate and you.

But perhaps in some small way the Australian Government is feeling a little bit guilty over the way they’ve treated Aussies on the “wrong side” of the border for almost 2 years. Allowing a small snippet of sympathy and letting us buy tickets first is a small luxury after being royally ….. for the last 2 years.

To add, the flights I can see into Sydney are filling rapidly well into November already. So this idea that we “need” tourists to generate demand is rubbish. Clear the backlog and give Australians a chance first. Maybe in December when Victoria opens up, then they can make it open to anyone.

[Telfer86]

The RPT passenger numbers for August are truly woeful , about 12 % of pre-Covid pax numbers , Perth - Karratha up there as a major route
Numbers will remain woeful until EOY
Good news Qld to open to hotspots at 80% , predicted to be December 17th
Difficult to see anybody doing advance bookings , in anticipation the event will occur given how the airlines have conducted themselves (no refund for you peasant)
What are SA, NT , Tas going to do ?
Clearly they won't open before Qld , hopefully they will match it but heard something about some places wanting 90%

Also anyone want to hazard a guess as to what might happen if Victorian numbers remain high ? 2000 + or so , or are we just going to keep shrieking & repeating the phrase "numbers are irrelevant" & do a rain dance
Each to their own opinion , the issue is it seems a lot of OS Medical guys(& countries, ie: Singapore) don't subscribe to that little theory - will invoking Australian exceptionalism make it it different for us ?

[Ladloy]

Also anyone want to hazard a guess as to what might happen if Victorian numbers remain high ? 2000 + or so , or are we just going to keep shrieking & repeating the phrase "numbers are irrelevant" & do a rain dance
Each to their own opinion , the issue is it seems a lot of OS Medical guys(& countries, ie: Singapore) don't subscribe to that little theory - will invoking Australian exceptionalism make it it different for us ?

Isn't this what PPRuNE has been wanting this whole time? The wheels are in motion and there's no stopping it now, lockdowns in Vic and NSW are now a thing of the past, people will die and who knows what will happen with demand in flying.
The modelling is public with different scenarios.
Here is the modelling for vic https://burnet.edu.au/system/asset/file/4929/Burnet_Institute_VIC_Roadmap_20210918_-FINAL.pdf

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x596/screenshot_2021_10_20_at_20_53_33_burnet_institute_vic_roadm ap_20210918_final_pdf_f422b0a97e743988c08ea155f25f285c8d16b4 0e.png

[Clare Prop]

I always wonder about this 50000 people who are trying to get home. The number has never changed. But at Perth airport alone, more than 60000 people have passed through since the pandemic began. I don’t know what the numbers for the other states… but the total would far exceed 50000. I can’t figure out why the number never changes.. there are always 50000 people waiting to get home.
Numbers here. Overseas Arrivals and Departures, Australia, August 2021 | Australian Bureau of Statistics (abs.gov.au) (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/overseas-arrivals-and-departures-australia/aug-2021)
I know that only something like 39% of people arriving were Australian citizens a few months ago.

[PoppaJo]

Many people are leaving that’s why. Funerals, Partners, Study, ‘Study’, Internet love, weddings, and a whole lot of other useless reasons I won’t bore you.

I know someone who went to the states to ‘study’, to catch up with his newly found online lover, and now wants to come back.

I think the vast majority are back. That’s those who are actually coming home after a long time away. Then there are those who have always been back, yet find themselves overseas largely for no good reason at all, and now whinge cause they can’t get back!

[Expired101]

SOPS and Obba,

I’m an overseas Aussie and have been overseas since well before the pandemic started. I have been employed mostly throughout, as have roughly a dozen other Aussie friends I have in the country that we are in. To my knowledge none of us have ever registered with DFAT to come home and therefore would not be included in the 40,000-50,000 waiting to return. I imagine there are tens of thousands out there in similar situations to us. And to be honest, Australia is not the same place it was when I left, and I’m quite happy not being there. I’d be lying if I said I was proud to be an Aussie at certain times over the course of the last 20 odd months.

Should any of us have the unfortunate circumstance arise such as, losing a job, contract completion, being placed on LWOP indefinitely, have a family member become ill (here or at home), and we wish to come home, then we would have to register with DFAT and would be added to the list of those 40-50,000 waiting to come home.

Or maybe we might register because we just feel like trying to come home and reunite with family and friends who continually check in on us to see if we are doing ok, and perhaps meet new additions to the family that arrived since we were last home. There really is hundreds of reasons how people like us have found ourselves in the position we are in, each slightly different. The decision to jump in line is easier for some than it is for others.

Add the issue of the ever diminishing arrival caps, and it’s pretty clear how the number doesn’t go down.

Can you now figure it out fellas?

[rattman]

I’m quite happy not being there. I’d be lying if I said I was proud to be an Aussie at certain times over the course of the last 20 odd months.


So you created a new account to tell us that you are happy not to be here. Should I create a new account to tell you that I am happy that you aren't here as well ?

[kiwi grey]

I always wonder about this 50000 people who are trying to get home. The number has never changed. But at Perth airport alone, more than 60000 people have passed through since the pandemic began. I don’t know what the numbers for the other states… but the total would far exceed 50000. I can’t figure out why the number never changes.. there are always 50000 people waiting to get home.
For contrast, New Zealand currently conducts what is in effect a lottery for Hotel Quarantine (we call in Managed Isolation & Quarantine, "MIQ").
That system has released between 3,000 and 4,000 places each fortnight or so, and every time so far there has been around 30,000 entries (i.e. "lottery tickets" bought). One in ten may not be bad odds for a lottery where you're hoping to win some / lotsa money, but it's pretty depressing when it's your chances of getting home to share Grandma's 90th birthday.
Seeing as how Australia has about five times the population of NZ, the estimate of 50,000 expatriate Aussies wanting to come home seems pretty low, actually

[C441]

Seeing as how Australia has about five times the population of NZ, the estimate of 50,000 expatriate Aussies wanting to come home seems pretty low, actually
And even lower when you consider there's more than 4000 Queensland residents (and another 9000 prospective residents) who have been stuck just outside that state for weeks, in some cases months, trying just to get home which in some cases is no more than hour's drive away.:rolleyes:
"No problem" says the Health Minister; "you'll be able to drive home in another 9 weeks and wont even have to quarantine."

[aviation_enthus]

And even lower when you consider there's more than 4000 Queensland residents (and another 9000 prospective residents) who have been stuck just outside that state for weeks, in some cases months, trying just to get home which in some cases is no more than hour's drive away.:rolleyes:
"No problem" says the Health Minister; "you'll be able to drive home in another 9 weeks and wont even have to quarantine."

Now this policy really is pathetic. I honestly don’t know how Palletjack and Miles sleep at night.

Imagine a policy that CREATES homeless people in Australia just because that state can’t create a process to allow residents to get home.

As a proud Queenslander, this pandemic has made me despise the heartless decisions of the state government.

[Ironpot]

Now this policy really is pathetic. I honestly don’t know how Palletjack and Miles sleep at night.

Imagine a policy that CREATES homeless people in Australia just because that state can’t create a process to allow residents to get home.

As a proud Queenslander, this pandemic has made me despise the heartless decisions of the state government.


Not pathetic at all. They are in "results" business ... their results are brilliant! Maybe you should move somewhere else?

In case you missed it, all Palaszczuk does is follow Jeanette Young's instructions. EXACTLY what Deb Frecklington intended to do too!

[logansi]

Victoria will join NSW and open international borders with no quarantine from Nov 1.

[KRviator]

The latest from the Democratic People's Replublic of Wes-Tyrannical Australia:

Tuesday: We're going to open the border to Queensland - (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-western-australia-updates-border-relaxed-with-queensland/c156e304-5908-4d99-a6a7-00aa0fbf4f4a)No quarantine required! (https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-western-australia-updates-border-relaxed-with-queensland/c156e304-5908-4d99-a6a7-00aa0fbf4f4a) Hooray!
Wednesday: Under no circumstances will we be reopening WA to either NSW, Victoria or the ACT before Christmas. If we do that, WA citizens might have to wear masks on Christmas Day, and I won't have that. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-19/wa-stands-firm-on-hard-border-with-nsw-and-victoria/100548710) Oh, and I don't care that NSW is now below the 500 cases threshold that they shouldn't be Extreme Risk anymore. We're keeping them there because their cases are going to go up again. (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/mark-mcgowan-shuts-down-suggestions-of-lifting-extreme-risk-designation-for-people-travelling-from-new-south-wales/news-story/de7bde948447851b758a4839d34b143d)
Thursday: Oh, well, now Queensland have had 1 Covid case who might have been out 'n' about while infectious, so you know what, we ain't gonna reopen the border tomorrow, we'll have another look at it next week. Maybe. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-21/wa-dumps-plan-to-relax-border-with-queensland-after-covid-case/100557860)

Seriously, how TF is anyone supposed to make any kind of plan with this asreclown in charge? His comments about not reopening to NSW because WA might have to wear masks or have capacity limits for Christmas show exactly where his train of thought is - and it's no longer the health advice!

[PoppaJo]

If WA drifted off mysteriously into the Indian Ocean tomorrow, it wouldn’t even make the 6pm news over here.

I mean, they are normally the butt end of many jokes these days in the cockpit over this way anyway. Nobody cares.

[logansi]

If WA drifted off mysteriously into the Indian Ocean tomorrow, it wouldn’t even make the 6pm news over here.

I mean, they are normally the butt end of many jokes these days in the cockpit over this way anyway. Nobody cares.


Even better they could somehow float into the South China Sea and join the country they are mirroring. China is trying to build some islands out there aren't they?

[Ladloy]

Even better they could somehow float into the South China Sea and join the country they are mirroring. China is trying to build some islands out there aren't they?
That's such an insane stretch

[Colonel_Klink]

The ABC and The Age are both reporting tonight changing border requirements:

- ABC saying that international arrivals won’t have to quarantine arriving into Vic from start of November in line with NSW

- The Age reporting that NSW will open up to Victorians to holiday as of November 1.

Both of these requirements only applying to those that are double vaccinated.

A sense of normality starts to return?

[logansi]

The ABC and The Age are both reporting tonight changing border requirements:

- ABC saying that international arrivals won’t have to quarantine arriving into Vic from start of November in line with NSW

- The Age reporting that NSW will open up to Victorians to holiday as of November 1.

Both of these requirements only applying to those that are double vaccinated.

A sense of normality starts to return?

The beginning of the recovering starts now, it will be long and bumpy but the worst of the aviation decimation is over.

[PoppaJo]

The beginning of the recovering starts now, it will be long and bumpy but the worst of the aviation decimation is over.

As long as we get boosters well underway before next winter. UK dragging its feet at the moment heading into winter has many nervous.

[Bleve]

Qantas staff to return to work before Christmas as nationwide restart of international travel begins (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-22/qantas-international-travel-restart/100559036)

Fantastic news for Qantas staff. Now the pressure is well and truly on the recalcitrant State Premiers to open up. I think Anna Stay-away will fold pretty quickly, not sure about what's his name in the west.

[josephfeatherweight]

As long as we get boosters well underway before next winter. UK dragging its feet at the moment heading into winter has many nervous.
Yep - I imagine many of us are now beyond the 6 month mark since our second dose. I'm ready for mine, though I say that mindful that we also need to assist our northern neighbours and Pacific cousins with initial vaccinations if we have any hope of warding off the next (worse?) strain. And Australia has elected to cease AstraZeneca production - beggars belief.
News in the paper today says we've also got a large stock of Moderna about to expire - seriously, we couldn't organise a r00t in a brothel with a fist-full of fifties.

[SHVC]

NSW is seeing a small steady increase in number, the important one that matter are falling tho. Hospital admission down by 22 today, ventilator consistently falling down further 2 today I U has been falling but remains the same today at 124 this is fantastic news that the vaccines are working. Lord daddy will be hating this.

[logansi]

Yep - I imagine many of us are now beyond the 6 month mark since our second dose. I'm ready for mine, though I say that mindful that we also need to assist our northern neighbours and Pacific cousins with initial vaccinations if we have any hope of warding off the next (worse?) strain. And Australia has elected to cease AstraZeneca production - beggars belief.
News in the paper today says we've also got a large stock of Moderna about to expire - seriously, we couldn't organise a r00t in a brothel with a fist-full of fifties.

The booster issue isn't really a government issue. Pfizer and Moderna have been difficult with submitting the paperwork. Its likely they want more money even if we only paid for the doses.

[KRviator]

Tasmania open to everyone, without quarantine from December 15 (presumably, Dec 15 2021...)

Queensland has already stated December 17
NSW, ACT & Vic are already open, only leaving SA & the NT to disclose their dates.

Wes-Tyrannical Australia might be better off speculating what year they are considering reopening, given their health advice seems so starkly different to every other jurisdiction on the planet....
All vaccinated interstate and international arrivals can enter Tasmania without a need for quarantine from December 15, as long as they have returned a negative COVID-19 test, the state government has announced. When 80 per cent of the Tasmanian population over 16 years is fully vaccinated, interstate and international travellers can enter the state from a high-risk area if they undertake hotel quarantine or qualify for "risk-based" home quarantine.

From December 15, with a 90 per cent vaccination rate of those aged over 12, anyone can enter Tasmania without a need for quarantine as long as they are fully vaccinated. Interstate and international arrivals will need to provide a negative COVID-19 test within 72 hours of travel, but returning Tasmanians will not need a test if they are returning from a trip shorter than seven days. Mr Gutwein said the reopening date of December 15 was a firm one.

"We are not going to turn back from that date," he said. "I'm signalling to every eligible Tasmanian over the age of 12, if you are not vaccinated, get it done, and get it done as soon as you can. "Don't wait until December 14."

'COVID will come to Tasmania, make no mistake' Mr Gutwein said he was confident the vaccination targets would be met if people continued to turn up. He said Tasmania's older and more vulnerable population had influenced the Government's reopening plan. "We know once our borders are relaxed, COVID will come to Tasmania, make no mistake of that," Mr Gutwein said.

The Premier also said the mandatory face mask rule still in place despite the end of the three-day snap lockdown in southern Tasmania would end immediately. That rule had been scheduled to end at 6pm today, but the Premier said it could end early with no new cases. There are still some circumstances where masks are required, including events like the Royal Hobart Show and Salamanca Market. Visitor restrictions for aged care and hospitals will end at 6pm as planned.

Modelling informing reopening plan
Mr Gutwein said modelling from the Kirby Institute was helping inform Tasmania's reopening plan. "This modelling is Tasmanian-centric, updated for the aged specific population of Tasmania and hospital capacity of our state and specific Tasmanian targets for vaccination," he said. "While they do not predict the future, they do help inform plans based on different scenarios." The modelling runs over 200 days and will begin on December 1, and assumes 10 infected cases on day one. The model assumes that during the outbreak, 90 per cent of 12-15 year olds would be vaccinated by mid-January, but Mr Gutwein said he expected Tasmania would reach 90 per cent among that age group sooner. "We expect less impact than what the modelling shows," he said. Mr Gutwein said he expected a plan to vaccinate the 5 to 11-year-old age group would be approved in coming weeks.
Source (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-22/tasmania-covid-border-plan-reopening-december-vaccination/100558954)

[Telfer86]

Interesting rules in Tasmania , no test for locals going interstate , at least they are opening
The case numbers in Victoria are a problem , record case numbers 2300 , record deaths & 100 or so on ventilators & rising
Vic Govt are off the charts with their boasting & self-congratulations about what a Jolly Good Show it has all been

Andrews said today "I'm Bloody Proud" - what's he talking about here ?

The concern I have is that if Vic numbers blast through 3000 , 5000 daily - the other States will review their position

[hyg]

Interesting rules in Tasmania , no test for locals going interstate , at least they are opening
The case numbers in Victoria are a problem , record case numbers 2300 , record deaths & 100 or so on ventilators & rising
Vic Govt are off the charts with their boasting & self-congratulations about what a Jolly Good Show it has all been

Andrews said today "I'm Bloody Proud" - what's he talking about here ?

The concern I have is that if Vic numbers blast through 3000 , 5000 daily - the other States will review their position
what other choice does he have really? ppl don't like lock down, ppl don't like to wear mask, many ppl got the 'not my family in the hospital, who cares' attitude....

honestly, I couldn't tell the diff today heading out, looks to me the same amount of cars on the street as the last 3-4 weeks

[compressor stall]

The VIC lockdown was effectively over a couple of months back. Just now you can go into bars and restaurants and get your haircut.

[Buster Hyman]

Yes, this last lockdown in MEL had a distinct "Boy who cried Wolf" feel to it.

[morno]

Interesting rules in Tasmania , no test for locals going interstate , at least they are opening
The case numbers in Victoria are a problem , record case numbers 2300 , record deaths & 100 or so on ventilators & rising
Vic Govt are off the charts with their boasting & self-congratulations about what a Jolly Good Show it has all been

Andrews said today "I'm Bloody Proud" - what's he talking about here ?

The concern I have is that if Vic numbers blast through 3000 , 5000 daily - the other States will review their position

Ah yes, let’s all hide inside of our homes for the rest of our lives and quiver in fear.

Jane was right, people will die, but it’s a fact of life.

Let’s get on with it and stop counting.

[SHVC]

WA will not open anytime soon more than likely April 2022 Lord Daddy is given December 1st and 31st depending which group industry you work in as a deadline for first dose of vaccine. This just proves he is still trying to make noice to keep himself relevant. Stay closed WA please.

[SRFred]

This just proves he is still trying to make noice to keep himself relevant. Stay closed WA please.

Nah he has his eye on the Federal election and helping Labor as much as possible. Worked for him at the state level.

[Ladloy]

Ah yes, let’s all hide inside of our homes for the rest of our lives and quiver in fear.

Jane was right, people will die, but it’s a fact of life.

Let’s get on with it and stop counting.
Why can't we both open up and also care about the death rate? The modelling that every state uses still has contavt traving, home isolation, RAT in businesses. It's simply not a case of ignoring it, but living with it and still making small sacrifices for the hospital system and our compromised loved ones.

[neville_nobody]

Nah he has his eye on the Federal election and helping Labor as much as possible. Worked for him at the state level.

Might want to be careful as it could implode on him when WA folk see everyone else going to Bali but they are still locked in. Since there is no State election due the voters may take it out on the Federal Labor.

[SHVC]

The April date is coincidental with the May dead line for a federal election. It’s rumored Sco Mo is going to call it when getting back from the Glasgow summit. Imagine doing the election in January whilst WA is shut and eastern states are traveling freely around the world. Labor will loose WA big time.

[Ladloy]

The April date is coincidental with the May dead line for a federal election. It’s rumored Sco Mo is going to call it when getting back from the Glasgow summit. Imagine doing the election in January whilst WA is shut and eastern states are traveling freely around the world. Labor will loose WA big time.
right now West Australians couldn't give a flying **** about borders, but will be interesting. Scomo calling it post Glasgow is risky.

[ScepticalOptomist]

right now West Australians couldn't give a flying **** about borders, but will be interesting. Scomo calling it post Glasgow is risky.

WA is what, 10% of the Australian population? Let them stay closed, the bogans amongst them will miss Bali soon enough and demand change. McGowan will do as he’s directed by public sentiment.

[dr dre]

WA will not open anytime soon more than likely April 2022 Lord Daddy is given December 1st and 31st depending which group industry you work in as a deadline for first dose of vaccine. This just proves he is still trying to make noice to keep himself relevant. Stay closed WA please.

So if the deadline is Dec 31st where’d you pull April from?

[SOPS]

What I can’t understand is why all these people that live east of our border are obsessed with what we do in WA.

You are all open, enjoy it. Leave us alone. We enjoy what we have her. And you might be shocked .. but WA is not full of bogans.

[morno]

What I can’t understand is why all these people that live east of our border are obsessed with what we do in WA.

You are all open, enjoy it. Leave us alone. We enjoy what we have her. And you might be shocked .. but WA is not full of bogans.

Because you account for thousands of hours of flying every month that are unavailable because of some idiot who is power hungry and won’t admit his other failings in the public health system.

[dr dre]

Because you account for thousands of hours of flying every month that are unavailable because of some idiot who is power hungry and won’t admit his other failings in the public health system.

But that didn’t stop one airline announcing yesterday that based on the information they’ve received in negotiations with all governments and their future plans that they are comfortable in a few months to stand up all crew as they expect they’ll all be needed by then.

[Chad Gates]

Dre: except international crews in states that are subject to self isolation, unless the crew member agrees. That is in the Q&A. Perth longhaul crews are still stuffed for the time being.

[dr dre]

Dre: except international crews in states that are subject to self isolation, unless the crew member agrees. That is in the Q&A. Perth longhaul crews are still stuffed for the time being.

International flying will probably take a few extra months to come back to normal, I was more thinking of domestic restrictions. You need a lot more CC to operate widebodies than narrowbodies so if if all domestic CC are stood up they would expect a return of most widebodies on domestic routes, mainly transcon, and therefore are happy with the behind the scenes information they’ve received with the border situation to have those available crew stood up in a few months. Because I don’t think they would hesitate to continue to keep those crew stood down if they thought they wouldn’t need them for many months ahead.

[43Inches]

Not sure why anyone really cares about WA borders. The flying is marginal profits, QF has already organised re-routing for international. At the end of the day the state can do what it wants, the population there supports it, so yelling at them to open up is like screaming at China to comply with something. They won't and will probably stay closed longer in spite of being told what to do.

In other news, does anyone else find it convenient that an anti-vax group specifically targeting Michael Gunner in the NT appeared a day or two after his smack down of Ted Cruz. Shouting his address and suggesting action be taken against him and his family. It reeks of another countries method of politics being wielded here.

[rattman]

The April date is coincidental with the May dead line for a federal election. It’s rumored Sco Mo is going to call it when getting back from the Glasgow summit. Imagine doing the election in January whilst WA is shut and eastern states are traveling freely around the world. Labor will loose WA big time.

He wont call a campaign over xmas. He will either call it when he get back from glasgow where he can bask in the glory of his carbon zero policy and hopefully a successful reopening, but not have to worry about yet about the nats going crazy about the carbon zero. Or it will be late Jan or early Feb for march. He might go real hardcore and not call it so we have just the senate and the later the HOR. Split senate and HOR is my bet on whats going to happen

[Potsie Weber]

Not sure why anyone really cares about WA borders. The flying is marginal profits, QF has already organised re-routing for international. At the end of the day the state can do what it wants, the population there supports it, so yelling at them to open up is like screaming at China to comply with something. They won't and will probably stay closed longer in spite of being told what to do.

In other news, does anyone else find it convenient that an anti-vax group specifically targeting Michael Gunner in the NT appeared a day or two after his smack down of Ted Cruz. Shouting his address and suggesting action be taken against him and his family. It reeks of another countries method of politics being wielded here.

During the last mining boom it was the “marginal profits” of trans continental and intra WA that funded the ridiculous capacity war on the east coast, a senior executive told me of his frustration watching massive profits from WA being eaten away by empty flights every 15mins between Sydney and Melbourne.

Throughout COVID, it has been WA that has provided a reliable steady income for airlines.

With no domestic competition to the QF wide body product, the trans continental market is a sitting gold mine of profit. As soon as the WA border opens, those cashed up bogans will pack business class on these flights.

McGowan is an idiot, but airlines aren’t about to cut off their nose to spite their face with him. As soon as they can, they’ll jump heavily back into that market, coast to coast flying has always been a solid money spinner.

[43Inches]

During the last mining boom it was the “marginal profits” of trans continental and intra WA that funded the ridiculous capacity war on the east coast, a senior executive told me of his frustration watching massive profits from WA being eaten away by empty flights every 15mins between Sydney and Melbourne.


Perth runs make some profit and mostly for QF in the business class area. Until the early 2000s Perth was a backwater with few flights that cost a fortune under the duopoly. Virgin tried at wide-bodies and struggled to make anything of it, it was fairly well known they were breaking even at best on the route with those and the 737 fleet was doing the hard yards. I flew with both QF and VA on the A330 and 767 products regularly, there was always an empty row of seats I could stretch out on for the last 10 years some flights being 1/3rd full. The 737/A320 flights were always full and uncomfortable. Ticket prices were nothing compared to the AN days being 1/4 of the actual prices they charged back then, not even adjusted for inflation.

Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane merry go round is the money spinner, and if you are not cashing in on that, you wont be around long.

[planedriver]

Not sure why anyone really cares about WA borders.


The Perth long haul crew that are stood down with very limited flying forecast over the next 4-6 months probably care I’d say

[43Inches]

The Perth long haul crew that are stood down with very limited flying forecast over the next 4-6 months probably care I’d say

I sympathies with them, however would it really help them that much to open WA borders. Seriously transcontinent is done by domestic 737, so opening up the east to west really does not do much for them. You want international travel to the US and Europe and Asia for them to have proper work return. I mean its talked about like Perth is the center of QFs, network, when in reality we all know that Sydney, Sydney South (Melbourne) and Sydney North (Brisbane and Cairns) are the bulk of their services.

[Clare Prop]

What I can’t understand is why all these people that live east of our border are obsessed with what we do in WA.

You are all open, enjoy it. Leave us alone. We enjoy what we have her. And you might be shocked .. but WA is not full of bogans.

Hear hear. It's very tedious reading all the bile and hatred.

[dr dre]

As soon as they can, they’ll jump heavily back into that market, coast to coast flying has always been a solid money spinner.

And PER-LHR was quite profitable too, a monopoly on the route will ensure that, they want more flights on that route, and that’s why they’ll restart it in April as announced.

[neville_nobody]

You are all open, enjoy it. Leave us alone. We enjoy what we have her.

Yeah sure you enjoy the benefits of cheap interstate and foreign labour. Ultimately the government can't afford not to open the border. Things will just stop happening as there will be no one to do it. The airlines know this they will just bide their time eventually probably cutting off WA when the free money from Canberra stop flowing. Just maybe the locals need to learn the hard way you need the rest of the country to actually survive, as unpalatable that might be.

If Mc Gowan really screws it up he will have a Hospital Crisis with people dying in the street because there is not enough staff. Let's all hope he isn't so stupid to get to that point.

[SOPS]

Yeah sure you enjoy the benefits of cheap interstate and foreign labour. Ultimately the government can't afford not to open the border. Things will just stop happening as there will be no one to do it. The airlines know this they will just bide their time eventually probably cutting off WA when the free money from Canberra stop flowing.

Again Neville. Why do you care?
If everything comes to a grinding halt because we can’t possibly survive without all you wise men from the east, we will sort it out when it happens. No need for you to worry.

[neville_nobody]

Again Neville. Why do you care?
If everything comes to a grinding halt because we can’t possibly survive without all you wise men from the east, we will sort it out when it happens. No need for you to worry.

Because ultimately we are one country as much you might hate to admit it might just be time to join the team

[43Inches]

Yeah sure you enjoy the benefits of cheap interstate and foreign labour. Ultimately the government can't afford not to open the border. Things will just stop happening as there will be no one to do it. The airlines know this they will just bide their time eventually probably cutting off WA when the free money from Canberra stop flowing. Just maybe the locals need to learn the hard way you need the rest of the country to actually survive, as unpalatable that might be.

Not quite sure where this free money is coming from, oh that's right the gov is giving back WA citizens 40 cents in every dollar they pay in taxes.... The rest goes to subsidizing QLD, SA and the NT. Why QLD needs subsidising when they have wondrous COAL who knows... Oh that's right no one needs that stuff anymore so we sell it at close to cost to make it seem like there's an industry and take money from WAs profitable iron ore and gold production to prop up our economy.

[Chad Gates]

SOPS

May I ask why you believe that those in this board critical of MM are from over east? Hint: they are not


Clare

Is it true you believe that only West Australians that support MM should be able to post on this board?

[Chronic Snoozer]

SOPS

May I ask why you believe that those in this board critical of MM are from over east? Hint: they are not


Clare

Is it true you believe that oly West Australians that support MM should be able to post on this board?
Yep. ...............

[Potsie Weber]

I sympathies with them, however would it really help them that much to open WA borders. Seriously transcontinent is done by domestic 737, so opening up the east to west really does not do much for them. You want international travel to the US and Europe and Asia for them to have proper work return. I mean its talked about like Perth is the center of QFs, network, when in reality we all know that Sydney, Sydney South (Melbourne) and Sydney North (Brisbane and Cairns) are the bulk of their services.

Pretty sure pre-COVID there were more A330’s doing coast to coast than 737’s, probably around 5 flights per day to each Sydney and Melbourne. Business class usually full and good coin with many on corporate policies like business class for flights over 3hrs. It wasn’t just full of FF upgrades.

Dont think anyone believes Perth is in any way the centre of QFs network, doesn’t mean it’s not important though. For the 330 based crew, coast to coast is their bread and butter. During the short period domestic was fully open earlier this year, all Perth crew who wanted to fly were stood up.

[43Inches]

No doubt, but that comment was in regard to the long haul pilots having work, not domestic A330 crew, who would still be doing east coast runs as well.

With regard to A330 vs others that's now purely a QF consideration with no other airline operating the wide-bodies on that route so its all 737 and A320 traffic otherwise. In the days VA did it, there was a short run of good A330 coverage, but the last few years with yield management more and more 737 were being used to alleviate cost factor. Even in the US there is a move towards more cost effective large single aisle, with more A321 on order than ever, which shows they are over the issues the 757 was culled for, the expectation of long turn around times due to one aisle. QF is more unique, in that it has good corporate contracts so it can make profit on lower load factors due to its brand loyalty, something it's lived off for some time now.

[KRviator]

No doubt, but that comment was in regard to the long haul pilots having work, not domestic A330 crew, who would still be doing east coast runs as well.True, however the only reason the Perth LH crews are going to stay stood down until the year 2325AD is due to one reason, and one reason only. McGowan's border bollocks. Were he to see sense and do as other states have done, then they'd likely be getting recurrent if not now, then in the very near future and flying again by Christmas.

If everything comes to a grinding halt because we can’t possibly survive without all you wise men from the east, we will sort it out when it happens. No need for you to worry.Clearly not.

Rio Tinto lost $3.2B profit - not revenue - profit due to the labour shortage in their iron ore operation. Work out the lost royalties on that, the lost payroll tax, the lost income tax from employee bonus payments, etc. BHP would be similar, and they have just advertised for Drivers for their rail network for the third time this year because they have introduced a "Thou shall live in WA" clause to their selection criteria. And the fact BHP - who pay a bucketoad more $$ on a far better roster than most any other operator outside the Pilbara cannot get WA-based crew show that WA can't do the job. If they could, Rio & BHP wouldn't be out billions of dollars and neither they, nor the tourist operators would be crying about the labour shortage in the state.

But they are. Because WA cannot manage things themselves, no matter how much you would like to think you can. If you could - I wouldn't have had a job there for well over a decade!

Hear hear. It's very tedious reading all the bile and hatred.No one's forcing you to read it.

But you know what I've noticed from reading it? It isn't really directed at Steve Marshall, or Peter Gutwein or Michael Gunner, nor has it ever been. It has been, almost without fail, directed at McGowan & Anna-Stayaway, because it has been their border polices that have caused so much heartache. Even now, McGowan is not following his own border policies. NSW is still classified as "Extreme Risk" - defined as an average caseload of 500/day on a 14day rolling average. NSW has been under that for days - since the 19th October when we went from 508/day to 483/day on a 14-day rolling average.

The other interesting tidbit about that is the ACT remains Medium Risk for the WA border bollocks and has been for yonks, IIRC. However, if you correct the ACT case numbers, for NSW's population (NSW having 18.9x the population of the ACT), you will find the ACT has been above 500/day on a 14 day average since the 4th October. But they remain "Medium risk", even though they have a higher percentage of cases. :ugh:

[neville_nobody]

ot quite sure where this free money is coming from, oh that's right the gov is giving back WA citizens 40 cents in every dollar they pay in taxes.... The rest goes to subsidizing QLD, SA and the NT. Why QLD needs subsidising when they have wondrous COAL who knows... Oh that's right no one needs that stuff anymore so we sell it at close to cost to make it seem like there's an industry and take money from WAs profitable iron ore and gold production to prop up our economy.

Who then in turn have members of their population serve in the ADF to live in and defend your state.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

No doubt, but that comment was in regard to the long haul pilots having work, not domestic A330 crew, who would still be doing east coast runs as well.



Not sure what you mean here. There is no such thing as ‘domestic A330 crew’ - all QF A330 crew are long haul, who sometimes fly domestic sectors.

[43Inches]

Rio Tinto is a bad example of Covid problems, 1st half 2019 revenue $21.8 Billion vs 1st Half 2021 revenue of $33.1 Billion. The other indicators are even stronger, they doubled EBITDA and free cashflow over the same period. So whatever losses they claim to have made from covid are overshadowed by a MASSIVE increase in revenue and profitability. To be honest they are just looking for excuses as to why they can't continue 50% growth factors and anyone can see that next year will look bad even if they have 20% growth, "oh but it's half the growth of last year...."

Not sure what you mean here. There is no such thing as ‘domestic A330 crew’ - all QF A330 crew are long haul, who sometimes fly domestic sectors.

I don't fly the A330 so I thought there was a domestic vs LH crew, my apologies. In any case I thought the 330s were still flying east coast and some WA as well, I was actually suprised to see them slinking around during lockdown.

[dr dre]

I don't fly the A330 so I thought there was a domestic vs LH crew, my apologies. In any case I thought the 330s were still flying east coast and some WA as well, I was actually suprised to see them slinking around during lockdown.

All domestic CC are to be stood up from sometime in December, last time that happened was earlier in the year when borders were mostly open and the 330 was doing a substantial amount of transcons. As there hasn’t been any real loss of CC since then (the VR was done earlier) then it could be assumed that the same amount 330 flying would be done domestically from the start of next year too.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I don't fly the A330 so I thought there was a domestic vs LH crew, my apologies. In any case I thought the 330s were still flying east coast and some WA as well, I was actually suprised to see them slinking around during lockdown.

From the context, I assume you meant pilots - but if referring to cabin crew, you’d be quite right, both LH and SH operate on the 330 (and both LH & SH have been operating east coast to Perth).

[Transition Layer]

Seems like there are plenty of people commenting on this thread who don’t understand the huge and direct impact that the WA Govt policies have on the ability of airline crews to do their jobs. And if you want to be more specific, the quarantine requirements for WA are now the difference between full time work and stand down for QF Long Haul pilots, as per Friday’s announcement.

If you don’t understand the finer details and realise why it’s infuriating, then don’t comment. It’s an insult to the rest of us who just want to live in Perth and do our jobs. International Pilots in the rest of Australia will very shortly be able to go back to normal…who knows when that will happen in WA.

[SHVC]

So if the deadline is Dec 31st where’d you pull April from?


31st first does for group 2 industry, say if they use AZ December 31st min 4 weeks maximum 12 for second dose which will be March then he is quoted in many statements that he will look at opening when 80% is reached.

I want WA to remain closed I want those mines to keep
scaling back due labor shortages and I want to see WA wake up and get pi$$ed at each other when they see the rest of us living. WA is in lockdown and you don’t even realize it.

February, March April (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/coronavirus/mark-mcgowan-says-western-australia-could-keep-borders-shut-until-april-2022/news-story/34f98e14d336a58f457782ae259b8cd6%3famp)

[KRviator]

Rio Tinto is a bad example of Covid problems, 1st half 2019 revenue $21.8 Billion vs 1st Half 2021 revenue of $33.1 Billion. The other indicators are even stronger, they doubled EBITDA and free cashflow over the same period. So whatever losses they claim to have made from covid are overshadowed by a MASSIVE increase in revenue and profitability.I don't think you can compare their finances from 2019 to 2021 and say they Covid hasn't caused an issue, which was the point of my comment. In January 2019, the ore price was around $75/T for most of the month, before finishing at $117/T in July. That same period in 2021 was $166/T & $218/T so of course their earnings will be substantially higher, even though their unit costs have increased by 25% over that time while their tonnages have remained almost static at 327MT shipped 2019 vs expected 320-325MT shipped 2021.

However, that doesn't alter the fact they could have made several billion more had they had sufficient staff on site. Which they have admitted they don't have, as have BHP. If SOPS were to be believed, there wouldn't be a labour shortage in WA as they can handle everything they need to, in-house.

Evidence across a range of industries in WA shows that to be false.

EDIT:
And NSW now has a 14-day rolling average case # below 400 being only 384 / day yet continue to be held in the "Extreme Risk" category for WA while even if the ACT records zero cases today, they would still be above the 'magic 500' when adjusted for population, while WA keeps them in only the "Medium Risk" category. But of course it's based on "health advice". :yuk:

[havick]

I don't think you can compare their finances from 2019 to 2021 and say they Covid hasn't caused an issue, which was the point of my comment. In January 2019, the ore price was around $75/T for most of the month, before finishing at $117/T in July. That same period in 2021 was $166/T & $218/T so of course their earnings will be substantially higher, even though their unit costs have increased by 25% over that time while their tonnages have remained almost static at 327MT shipped 2019 vs expected 320-325MT shipped 2021.

However, that doesn't alter the fact they could have made several billion more had they had sufficient staff on site. Which they have admitted they don't have, as have BHP. If SOPS were to be believed, there wouldn't be a labour shortage in WA as they can handle everything they need to, in-house.

Evidence across a range of industries in WA shows that to be false.

EDIT:
And NSW now has a 14-day rolling average case # below 400 being only 384 / day yet continue to be held in the "Extreme Risk" category for WA while even if the ACT records zero cases today, they would still be above the 'magic 500' when adjusted for population, while WA keeps them in only the "Medium Risk" category. But of course it's based on "health advice". :yuk:

Thats the problem, the ‘advice’ is taken as gospel for ass covering from someone that has no skin in the game.

[dr dre]

31st first does for group 2 industry, say if they use AZ December 31st min 4 weeks maximum 12 for second dose which will be March then he is quoted in many statements that he will look at opening when 80% is reached.

AstraZeneca has already been phased out (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/australia-likely-won-t-use-astrazeneca-after-october-except-by-request-20210623-p583n6.html), it’s all Pfizer and Moderna now with a shorter second dose interval. 80% will be reached early December (https://covidlive.com.au/wa), and 90% prior to year’s end. An apparent change in policy from the Health Minister yesterday, indicating a reopening plan to be announced prior to reaching the 80% target (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-23/wa-health-minister-flags-announcements-open-up-plan/100563288). Previously it was to be announced somewhere between 80-90%. That’s was probably why the vaccine mandate for 75% of workers was bought in, to get the rates up quicker. If WA were truly blasé about reopening then they’d hardly institute such a widespread mandate.

I want WA to remain closed I want those mines to keep
scaling back due labor shortages and I want to see WA wake up and get pi$$ed at each other when they see the rest of us living.


Criticise actions of governments all you want, but wishing the people of a place to suffer to prove a point is a bit demented.....

[43Inches]

While there is some squeeze on workforce, most is of Rios creation with the move to more contracted work (2016) in lieu of full time in house due to 'volatile ore prices'. There is also a major weather event thrown in which disrupted ports and and operations during the period. Rio is also operating at close to maximum capacity anyway until Koodaideri comes on line, which is fairly soon, that will add another 40 MgT of ore capability. Outside of that the wild iron ore prices are probably thanks to covid.

With regard to crews infuriated in WA. Us pilots in Victoria and NSW have been in lockdown and more or less permanent stand down, so while there is a little bit of sympathy for the plight of the few QF pilots that can't work or have to quarantine a while I assume still being paid. Many, if not most on the East coast have been existing on dole level income for close to 2 years, that's airlines domestic, long haul, short haul, regional, GA, even private pilots could not fly in Melbourne, we don't even have the option to fly and then quarantine. If you are an intrastate pilot in WA or any other state based worker you are probably working with reasonable income, and have been the whole pandemic, which I am happy for them.

If you choose to live in a state with known isolationist policies, times will happen when you are isolated from the world. The locals have chosen this path, they set a clear mandate to the government in the election.

The question is in a few years time when the state pushes for independence, will you stick with the republic of McGowan or move back to the Kingdom of Morrison. :E

[KRviator]

Criticise actions of governments all you want, but wishing the people of a place to suffer to prove a point is a bit demented.....I don't think so in the slightest. You reap what you sow, and for such a large percentage of the WA population to vote for McGowan on the basis of his state border policies to the detriment of the rest of the country, to me, says they deserve everything that comes their way.

How many hundreds of thousands of people have suffered as a result of WA's border policies? As a result of Queensland's? Take a look at the hundreds of media reports about people being detained in hotel quarantine while their parent dies only a mile or two away, parents being told they cannot enter the hospital to see their child undergoing critical treatment as they're from NSW and an unelected official declared an entire state a Covid Hotspot or health staff being told they'll not be allowed to leave their home if they go to work across the border as they'll need to quarantine (endlessly) on their return. So no, I don't think wishing ill will on a state that does that is out of line - for the simple reason they have done it to everyone else - and keep right on doing it!

While there is some squeeze on workforce, most is of Rios creation with the move to more contracted work (2016) in lieu of full time in house due to 'volatile ore prices'. There is also a major weather event thrown in which disrupted ports and and operations during the period. Rio is also operating at close to maximum capacity anyway until Koodaideri comes on line, which is fairly soon, that will add another 40 MgT of ore capability.You need to stop focussing on Rio Tinto and consider the broader context, I used Rio as they were the first ones out of the gate to complain about the worker shortage. Fast forward a few days and BHP did the same, yet you've not commented on them at all. Or the cafe's who are short of chefs, the c0ckies who need workers for the harvest or the pubs up north who don't have backpackers pulling beers.

[43Inches]

I never said there was no worker shortage, I was stating just that Rio is a bad example of doing badly in covid. BHP the same.

We (Melbourne) just opened up here, so many shops are just happy to see customers let alone worry about staff, however we are still short staffed here as well as many casuals laid off have become used to sitting around or moved into other occupations. Many local larger shops are taking walk in applications as net based recruiting is not gathering enough. So it's not just a WA issue at the moment. You would think from all the moaning that people would be dying for work, but it's not really showing up in applicants for the basic stuff with local supermarkets in large suburbs still struggling to get staff. Local managers asking staff if they have any kids or friends etc that need work, different from a few years ago where you had to take a job in a burb 20 km away to begin.

I won't be surprised if Melbourne in particular starts to see logistics issues with lack of delivery drivers leading to pay and condition pushes, like in the UK. A lot of supermarkets are already having delivery issues with congested distribution centers, and shelves lacking some goods. This is in part due to covid hitting a couple of major distribution hubs, but is also due to lack of drivers.

PS Auspost and most other delivery services are screwed here, it takes a week plus to get things sent across the city, and don't bother paying the extra for 'express' it gets there at the same time. It's going to totally implode by Christmas.

[SixDemonBag]

There will be a lot of relief from shops re-opening. The sky won’t fall. Calm down

[Clare Prop]

Clare

Is it true you believe that only West Australians that support MM should be able to post on this board?

I have never posted any such thing and I'm not a supporter of him myself, I think he is a one trick pony with far too much power. I live in the electorate that had to put up with his "Walter Mitty" pal Barry Urban, I have no time for any of them.

I have never posted that I am a fan of closed borders, I am one of many who had to watch a parent die on Facetime and attend a Youtube funeral, so you can wind your neck in there.

There are no politicians or political parties that give a toss about small aviation businesses or deserve out support, so we actually get on with our lives despite whatever the governments throw at us; my aviation business has been trading steadily throughout the pandemic, keeping GA props turning.

There really are some posters here who are full of hatred they decide to label 2.5 million people as "bogans" and seem to really want us to have the virus here because apparently we deserve it for having a premier that they don't like. It's pathetic to watch these bitter and twisted people go on and on.

Criticise McGowan all you like but ridiculing a state full of people just makes you look like a stupid bully. FWIW the tide does seem to be turning against him.

[Chad Gates]

Fair enough I guess Clare. Might be easier to understand your support of a statement, if you only quote the statement and not the whole post. Especially when you are quoting someone like SOPS, as we know he’s a myopic MM lover.

[SOPS]

Fair enough I guess Clare. Might be easier to understand your support of a statement, if you only quote the statement and not the whole post. Especially when you are quoting someone like SOPS, as we know he’s a myopic MM lover.

No Chad.. you know very little actually. I like Clare, get sick of people that seem to want us overrun we Covid because they don’t like our Premier. Please don’t assume things.

[KRviator]

No Chad.. you know very little actually. I like Clare, get sick of people that seem to want us overrun we Covid because they don’t like our Premier. Please don’t assume things."Overrun with Covid"...Puh-lease. You're more melodramatic than Anna-Stayaway and her "thousands will die each month if we open the border (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/queensland-premier-says-thousands-will-die-each-month-if-borders-open/news-story/b0f42f461b947eba077ea94e7fec6146)" rubbish.

YOUR CHO - not NSW's, not Qld's, and not whoever is advising ScoMo - testified under oath that the WA health system is capable of managing 500 new cases per day or 5,000 total cases.

IF that is true, then on what grounds does WA continue to exclude 2/3rds of the country from the state based on nothing more than the state in which they live? To the untrained eye, that's against s.117 of the Constitution. If it were based on a defined risk, I'd have no problem with it, nor any leg on which to stand. However, I didn't stand up in court and say "We can manage 5,000 cases". Dr Andy Robertson did.
Dr Robertson estimates that for 100 new cases per day (or 1,000 active cases), 130 hospital beds and 25 ICU beds would be required, and 14 deaths expected; while for 500 new cases per day (or 5,000 active cases), 650 hospital beds and 124 ICU beds would be required, and 70 deaths expected. These numbers would remain within the capacity of the Western Australian health system to manage, but would substantially increase the burden upon the health system.So, if the WA health system can manage with upto 500 new cases per day, is it really fair or just to deny 2/3rds of the population entry to Western Australia based on nothing more than their state of residence?

Unless there's something more at play...

[Clare Prop]

Yes, when that state of residence had Covid rampant in the community.

And for those who think I am a McGowan fan, he has just decided that aviation businesses who were forced to close during the last lockdown are not eligable for the government small business assistance payment. So I am NOT a fan of him or any other politician. Doesn't mean I want to throw the borders open to people from states that have lost control of the virus. I've been involved in quarantine in the agricultural industry and this is no different.

[galdian]

I saw an article that quoted Queen P as saying "...when Delta arrives....' regards vaccinations in QLD.
For an elimination proponent (as a preference ) I thought a major change of direction for her leadership.

Chairman Dan has followed in the NSW footsteps, not his preferred direction maybe but he's pivoted based on vaccination levels.

Tasmania/South Australia/NT have/will pivot and decide direction based on vaccinations.

The success of all the above (or not) will only be determined by time BUT those states have decided a certain path to move forward.

I perceive (rightly/wrongly) McGowan is still a covid eliminator and his actions will be determined more by elimination rather than vaccinations.
It will be interesting to see if/when he makes a Queen P pronouncement "...when Delta arrives....." if he ever does, major change of direction to be handled.

Separate but find it quite offensive he's so proud to spruik the WA budget deficit - which is all well and good.
Just surprised didn't follow with "...and this will allow us to fund improvements in health/infrastructure/welfare housing/..........whatever.

Leadership? Hmmmmmm.

[Potsie Weber]

I don't think so in the slightest. You reap what you sow, and for such a large percentage of the WA population to vote for McGowan on the basis of his state border policies to the detriment of the rest of the country, to me, says they deserve everything that comes their way.

How many hundreds of thousands of people have suffered as a result of WA's border policies? As a result of Queensland's? Take a look at the hundreds of media reports about people being detained in hotel quarantine while their parent dies only a mile or two away, parents being told they cannot enter the hospital to see their child undergoing critical treatment as they're from NSW and an unelected official declared an entire state a Covid Hotspot or health staff being told they'll not be allowed to leave their home if they go to work across the border as they'll need to quarantine (endlessly) on their return. So no, I don't think wishing ill will on a state that does that is out of line - for the simple reason they have done it to everyone else - and keep right on doing it!

You need to stop focussing on Rio Tinto and consider the broader context, I used Rio as they were the first ones out of the gate to complain about the worker shortage. Fast forward a few days and BHP did the same, yet you've not commented on them at all. Or the cafe's who are short of chefs, the c0ckies who need workers for the harvest or the pubs up north who don't have backpackers pulling beers.

Whilst strong borders were McGowan’s election mantra, it was the absolute lack of any alternative that saw the landslide. The Libs were an embarrassment, so much so, even there most diehard liberal supporters could not vote for them. It was the most one sided election ever, with the libs left begging for sympathy votes as their main policy. If you believe it was all McGowan and his borders that got the landslide, you are simply stoking his inflated ego.

[galdian]

Whilst strong borders were McGowan’s election mantra, it was the absolute lack of any alternative that saw the landslide. The Libs were an embarrassment, so much so, even there most diehard liberal supporters could not vote for them. It was the most one sided election ever, with the libs left begging for sympathy votes as their main policy. If you believe it was all McGowan and his borders that got the landslide, you are simply stoking his inflated ego.

Interesting, when discussing with a friend he thought some of the policies of the Lib's were worth considering and that the leader of the Lib's carried himself OK for a young'un considering circumstances.

I always thought the template (Qld election) indicated the way things were go, from what I saw Deb F was less than useless but some upside in the WA opposition leader yet WA has a total of 2 (yes 2) members of the opposition.

Wait to see if/when MM decides he has to open up and abandon "hermit" mentality, could be fun to watch. Popcorn anyone! ;)

[43Inches]

I don't hold much weight to arguments like 'the libs had no policy' such widespread swings shows the whole state rejected everything liberal en-masse as a point. The swing completely obliterated any local members efforts to bring a constituency around to their points. Even if the libs had no policy some local members would have had some line and worked hard, or were all 53 members who were rejected just terrible. A government of 53 out of 59 seats is not formed just by one man alone, there's 52 others who were voted into parliament for their local area. Or are we that ignorant to how democracy works in Australia. Governments that are voted in on the whim of 'better the devil you know' don't get huge majorities. One thing I see in the rhetoric of Labor is strong patriotism in state matters, which obviously correlates with the voters. He stands up for WAs rights in the face of those nasty Easterners, hence why I say (with some joking and some seriousness) to be prepared for a WAXIT referendum back on the agenda if they continue with this popularity, if not only to wrangle more tax dollars back in WAs favor.

[De_flieger]

Interesting, when discussing with a friend he thought some of the policies of the Lib's were worth considering and that the leader of the Lib's carried himself OK for a young'un considering circumstances.

I always thought the template (Qld election) indicated the way things were go, from what I saw Deb F was less than useless but some upside in the WA opposition leader yet WA has a total of 2 (yes 2) members of the opposition.

Having spent a bit of time in WA in the last few years it's been interesting to watch the political tide - in 2017, pre-covid the Libs lost the state election in what their own reports described as a landslide too, so they've had ongoing problems. It can't all be written off as insular sandgropers who want to slam the borders shut thanks to covid and to hell with everything else.

Throw in a bunch of apparent branch-stacking, some poorly chosen candidates ( one who was a 5G-covid conspiracist, and another woman married to a pastor who thinks pornography viewers are going to hell and that homosexuals need to be "cleansed", and who wasn't allowed to answer questions about whether she shared his views ), as well as a lot of people felt that the selected candidates had extreme and unrepresentative religious views, and the brand was on the nose. That's taking things from the Liberal Party's own post-election report as to why people didn't vote for them, not my personal views. Throw in Scott Morrison backing Clive Palmer, which set up an easy free kick for McGowan, and the leader of the opposition announcing defeat well before the election, and the outcome was fairly much in line with what would be expected.

[Ladloy]

I don't hold much weight to arguments like 'the libs had no policy' such widespread swings shows the whole state rejected everything liberal en-masse as a point. The swing completely obliterated any local members efforts to bring a constituency around to their points. Even if the libs had no policy some local members would have had some line and worked hard, or were all 53 members who were rejected just terrible. A government of 53 out of 59 seats is not formed just by one man alone, there's 52 others who were voted into parliament for their local area. Or are we that ignorant to how democracy works in Australia. Governments that are voted in on the whim of 'better the devil you know' don't get huge majorities. One thing I see in the rhetoric of Labor is strong patriotism in state matters, which obviously correlates with the voters. He stands up for WAs rights in the face of those nasty Easterners, hence why I say (with some joking and some seriousness) to be prepared for a WAXIT referendum back on the agenda if they continue with this popularity, if not only to wrangle more tax dollars back in WAs favor.
and hey, the federal libs had no policy last election and still won!

[SOPS]

Having spent a bit of time in WA in the last few years it's been interesting to watch the political tide - in 2017, pre-covid the Libs lost the state election in what their own reports described as a landslide too, so they've had ongoing problems. It can't all be written off as insular sandgropers who want to slam the borders shut thanks to covid and to hell with everything else.

Throw in a bunch of apparent branch-stacking, some poorly chosen candidates ( one who was a 5G-covid conspiracist, and another woman married to a pastor who thinks pornography viewers are going to hell and that homosexuals need to be "cleansed", and who wasn't allowed to answer questions about whether she shared his views ), as well as a lot of people felt that the selected candidates had extreme and unrepresentative religious views, and the brand was on the nose. That's taking things from the Liberal Party's own post-election report as to why people didn't vote for them, not my personal views. Throw in Scott Morrison backing Clive Palmer, which set up an easy free kick for McGowan, and the leader of the opposition announcing defeat well before the election, and the outcome was fairly much in line with what would be expected.

And you wait until the Federal election advertising starts in WA. Clive Palmer is despised here. The worst thing ScoMo did was back him. Labor will milk that for all its worth.

[KRviator]

Yes, when that state of residence had Covid rampant in the community.Is being such a drama king a WA thing? "Rampant in the Community"...Really? Have you bothered to look at the figures yourself? Or are you one of those people who believe everything your State Daddy tells you?

The ACT has more Covid cases per capita than does NSW, and has done since the 17th October, yet is classified two steps lower than NSW, to the point you can quarantine at home if you were to travel to WA, whereas Joe Q Public from NSW cannot travel to WA at all - even if their only child lays dying in hospital - not even to quarantine at their expense in a Government managed hotel...

The ACT is currently classified as "Medium Risk" according to the WA Controlled Border program, while NSW is assessed as "Extreme Risk". The 14-day rolling average for those states sits at 384 for NSW and 27 for the ACT, however, if you normalise those figures for population, you get 518 for the ACT (as NSW's population is 18.9x greater) and, again normalised for population, the ACT has peaked at over 700 on a 14-day rolling average, but IIRC they have never gone above the "Medium Risk" category, because it does not factor in population size, so as an assessment tool, it is useless, and unfairly penalises those states with higher populations.

IF that's the quality of the "health advice" being provided in WA it's no wonder your health system is up the shyte.

[Transition Layer]

Extremely valid points you raise about the disparity between NSW and ACT case numbers KRviator. :D

Hopefully someone calls them out on it soon, although it’s unfortunately very rare to see any tough questions asked of McGowan or Cook at any press conference.

[43Inches]

Unfortunately apart from NSW and Vic who seem to react to each others progress and adjust I doubt you will see any change over west, probably the opposite. QLD, who knows, that state is erratic and could just open or go full McGowan at any time for any reason not related to anything.

[galdian]

Unfortunately apart from NSW and Vic who seem to react to each others progress and adjust I doubt you will see any change over west, probably the opposite. QLD, who knows, that state is erratic and could just open or go full McGowan at any time for any reason not related to anything.

Disagree regards QLD, think Queen P's new position is "live with Delta, it will come, get vaccinated", like when Chairman Dan saw the light in Victoria the change in direction was immediate and forceful.

McGowan will run his own race until his conversion to "live with Delta, it will come, get vaccinated", good luck betting when it'll happen.

[Ladloy]

Disagree regards QLD, think Queen P's new position is "live with Delta, it will come, get vaccinated", like when Chairman Dan saw the light in Victoria the change in direction was immediate and forceful.

McGowan will run his own race until his conversion to "live with Delta, it will come, get vaccinated", good luck betting when it'll happen.

It will happen when the vaccination rates pick up, just like it did in every other state. The issue is supply of vaccinations has been woeful to begin with coupled with diverting to Sydney during this delta outbreak. To think that the QLD and Vic government has seen the light is beyond stupid. If you think they intended to keep borders shut and people locked down indefinitely you have rocks in your head. The narrative has to be black and white for the simpeltons.


I also love when people use names like Chairman Dan, palachook, Queen P. Straight away I know what flavour of propaganda you consume. Using it detracts from your argument.

[galdian]

It will happen when the vaccination rates pick up, just like it did in every other state. The issue is supply of vaccinations has been woeful to begin with coupled with diverting to Sydney during this delta outbreak. To think that the QLD and Vic government has seen the light is beyond stupid. If you think they intended to keep borders shut and people locked down indefinitely you have rocks in your head. The narrative has to be black and white for the simpeltons.


I also love when people use names like Chairman Dan, palachook, Queen P. Straight away I know what flavour of propaganda you consume. Using it detracts from your argument.

What's changed is their direction from contain/eradicate to "live with it".
I see WA as the only state that - for whatever reasons - hasn't seen the light, it will be interesting when McGowan does.

Personally can't think of any pollies at the moment who provide any inspiration, I don't see using terms of endearments as in any way detracting from anything.

[43Inches]

To be fair the 'Dan plan' has always been since vaccination became available to Suppress, Contain and then open up and live with once a certain level of vaccination was achieved. Living in Victoria I've watched a lot of his announcements to see what applies to me and the narrative has not changed much in 9 months. The idea of suppression and containment was to try to have some sort of normal life until vaccination rates peaked, the recent outbreak forced their hand to move faster. What was not spelled out until recently was what level of vax equated to what level of 'living with'. It's quite clear that as NSW has opened up with no real huge spikes, Vic has adjusted and offered more freedoms at similar stages than what was planned, the expectation that the state will be pretty much completely open, possibly with just mask requirements by Christmas is looking pretty good.

[logansi]

To be fair the 'Dan plan' has always been since vaccination became available to Suppress, Contain and then open up and live with once a certain level of vaccination was achieved. Living in Victoria I've watched a lot of his announcements to see what applies to me and the narrative has not changed much in 9 months. The idea of suppression and containment was to try to have some sort of normal life until vaccination rates peaked, the recent outbreak forced their hand to move faster. What was not spelled out until recently was what level of vax equated to what level of 'living with'. It's quite clear that as NSW has opened up with no real huge spikes, Vic has adjusted and offered more freedoms at similar stages than what was planned, the expectation that the state will be pretty much completely open, possibly with just mask requirements by Christmas is looking pretty good.

Exactly this. I've mostly supported Dan through the pandemic and always said to friends that, that would change if he didn't open up once the best available protection was available to all. People who criticise him and use childish names have been fed lies that this wasn't always the plan, be it Victoria or NSW the long-term plan was the same, the only real difference being that sadly Victoria ended up having the outbreak last year NSW didn't. I will never understand how people, including some here are praising NSW but still chanting "chairman dan", Victoria is literally doing everything NSW is doing, opening borders, almost all rules gone.

[morno]

I also love when people use names like Chairman Dan, palachook, Queen P. Straight away I know what flavour of propaganda you consume. Using it detracts from your argument.

Actually, given that her surname is Polish with original pronunciation very much like “palachook”, not the ridiculous pronunciation that she uses now, then I’d say that it adds to the argument, not detracts from it.

[Taggert]

Exactly this. I've mostly supported Dan through the pandemic and always said to friends that, that would change if he didn't open up once the best available protection was available to all. People who criticise him and use childish names have been fed lies that this wasn't always the plan, be it Victoria or NSW the long-term plan was the same, the only real difference being that sadly Victoria ended up having the outbreak last year NSW didn't. I will never understand how people, including some here are praising NSW but still chanting "chairman dan", Victoria is literally doing everything NSW is doing, opening borders, almost all rules gone.
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome!

[Telfer86]

Interesting article in todays age/smh , "Can you come home , what happens if you get COVID overseas"

You won't have travel insurance if you travel to any country on DFAT "do not travel" list & that is all countries except NZ

How interesting is it then to see the PM at the QF Love In last week , pumping up the volume, telling everyone how wonderful if all is
& of course lots of "look at me" time with QF people. When his Governments official advice is "do not travel"

If you contract Covid in the USA & need hospitalisation you won't receive treatment unless you hand over a very large amount of cash upfront circa $50K - or no treatment for you

Contact Aust Embassy all you like , they will not assist you financially & will point out that you ignored Fed Govt travel advice & the fact that the PM attended
a QF OS travel promotion is meaningless

You may well find yourself in over your head if you wish to go yodelling in the Swiss Alps over summertime or duck over to Cali to get that selfie with MIckie & Minnie

The Airline staff will all get VIP medical/swift evacuations - not available to Joe Average

You go down hard with Covid OS , you are on your own Feds won't touch you, QF will sell you a biz class fare to RIo but they sure aren't going to put their hand in their pocket to get you out of there if you get Covid

[Green.Dot]

Telfer, despite all the doom and gloom you paint one thing is for sure- people are ready to live (and travel) again. Maybe it has something to do with the science/proof we see of people being double vaccinated. Not even you will be able to scare the travellers away with your endless negative rambles!

[Transition Layer]

Telfer, hopefully this puts you at ease. God knows you need some cheering up!

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/australian-government-updates-international-travel-warnings

[Gnadenburg]

Yep onward and upward. It needs to become fashionable to push aside those still thriving in the wallows of COVID regressiveness and disproportionate caution. There were folks on this thread just months ago, predicting a dire collapse of the NSW medical system and telling us how they were not sending "their" nurses and health workers into the pandemic inferno. Time's up- it's actually now time to build the economy and opportunities for younger generations.

[Dannyboy39]

So Dan Andrews last week: unvaccinated tennis players wouldn’t get a visa for Australia.

Today: they can come in unvaccinated but with hard quarantine.

Once again, sports people and celebrities get their own way.

[logansi]

So Dan Andrews last week: unvaccinated tennis players wouldn’t get a visa for Australia.

Today: they can come in unvaccinated but with hard quarantine.

Once again, sports people and celebrities get their own way.

No Tennis Australia is saying they can come but the Federal governments saying they won't get a Visa.

[601]

No Tennis Australia is saying they can come but the Federal governments saying they won't get a Visa.
Isn't that how ride share entrenched its model in Oz.

[Ladloy]

Yep onward and upward. It needs to become fashionable to push aside those still thriving in the wallows of COVID regressiveness and disproportionate caution. There were folks on this thread just months ago, predicting a dire collapse of the NSW medical system and telling us how they were not sending "their" nurses and health workers into the pandemic inferno. Time's up- it's actually now time to build the economy and opportunities for younger generations.
not with this government

[GoldCoastTobacconist]

SA open Nov 23.

When will NT and TAS open?

As one open WA closes. West Australians seeing Maui and New York in their feed while they can go to Margaret River and Broome (again).

MMs time is coming.

[A320 Flyer]

Not quite sure where this free money is coming from, oh that's right the gov is giving back WA citizens 40 cents in every dollar they pay in taxes.... The rest goes to subsidizing QLD, SA and the NT. Why QLD needs subsidising when they have wondrous COAL who knows... Oh that's right no one needs that stuff anymore so we sell it at close to cost to make it seem like there's an industry and take money from WAs profitable iron ore and gold production to prop up our economy.

”they pay in taxes”…… you mean GST? WA residents don’t pay for all that iron ore do they????

[galdian]

To a degree I think you just have to ignore WA, things will change only when interested parties indicate their concerns/problems to MM and he finally decides to "pivot", draw your own timeline.

Some of that maybe - second hand - but a friend from east coast wanted some travel, initially booked Porn* early April to Bali, now early Feb and required covid insurance for $80.00 available on arrival, imagine have to be supported/underwritten by the Indonesian government.
As with all insurance "read the fine print" but believe that's what's available.

Along with the WA mining companies staff shortages there'd be more than a few locals wondering why east coast can fly to Bali - but WA can't.

[Icarus2001]

Isn't that how ride share entrenched its model in Oz. Good point. That subject deserves a thread of its own. Move in to a country, blatantly break the law and then demand the law is changed. They bloody got away with it.

[ChrisJ800]

SA open Nov 23.

When will NT and TAS open?

As one open WA closes. West Australians seeing Maui and New York in their feed while they can go to Margaret River and Broome (again).

MMs time is coming.

Tas opens Dec 15th

[chookcooker]

So pretty much the whole country excepts NT and WA by 20/12, with NT joining approx end of Jan. WA ? Who knows, who cares.

[WingNut60]

”they pay in taxes”…… you mean GST? WA residents don’t pay for all that iron ore do they????
Why would they pay for it? They own it.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Why would they pay for it? They own it.

Hahaha, that made me snort my coffee!

I love your ignorant bliss WingNut!!

[WingNut60]

Hahaha, that made me snort my coffee!

I love your ignorant bliss WingNut!!
OK. Actually owned by the Crown, but the only body empowered to collect royalties on behalf of "the community" is the Western Australian government.
And there is no requirement to share that with any other state.

No GST involved.

[43Inches]

The ride share economy is a classic example of the government just waiting for something to break the strangle hold of a powerful institution, taxi companies. They had created a monster they couldn't touch by law by artificially restricting cab numbers and making licence plates worth hundreds of thousands of dollars when the issue fee is a few hundred. Add to that a taxi directorate that was a law unto itself. The situation could have been fixed years ago with unlimited licences available and proper rules and conditions for drivers which would have self stabilised the industry. Instead the money involved led to a corrupt system where drivers made no more than basic wage and plate owners played ponzi scheme with cars. Now you have an unlimited amount of cars with unlimited drivers with no minimum conditions which will just end up eventually in a mess once the novelty runs out.

[43Inches]

And there is no requirement to share that with any other state.

Why should a state have to share it's royalties?

Most states have mineral resources they can take advantage of, why is NT, SA and QLD which are mineral rich unable to take advantage of these deposits like WA? Are they all just stupid except for WA?

I get pissed off my tax goes to subsidise Joyces and Palmers crap in QLD.

[WingNut60]

Why should a state have to share it's royalties?

Most states have mineral resources they can take advantage of, why is NT, SA and QLD which are mineral rich unable to take advantage of these deposits like WA? Are they all just stupid except for WA?

I get pissed off my tax goes to subsidise Joyces and Palmers crap in QLD.
Precisely.

But some like to obfuscate the royalties and taxation (GST) arguments.
Your state attracts billions in royalties therefore you shouldn't get any of your GST contribution back.

Eh????

[43Inches]

I'm in Victoria we only get 80 cents in the dollar back on taxes, those 3 states I mentioned get the lion share because of, relative size and scope of infrastructure, which is BS. Population is as much a driver of costs as physical land area. Considering how much emphasis Barnaby puts on coal as an industry in QLD, why is it the state needs to be subsidised by the others.

[mostlytossas]

As a South Australian I love it that you convict states pay us through the GST. LOL.:}

[WingNut60]

As a South Australian I love it that you convict states pay us through the GST. LOL.:}
There is ample justification for the equitable re-distribution of SOME of the wealthier states taxation.

But for those who think re-distributing 63% is fair (Mattias and Joe even wanted 70%) I would remind you of the outcome of the little clash between the American colonies and the Crown a couple of hundred years ago.

[WingNut60]

To a degree I think you just have to ignore WA, things will change only when interested parties indicate their concerns/problems to MM and he finally decides to "pivot", draw your own timeline.

Some of that maybe - second hand - but a friend from east coast wanted some travel, initially booked Porn* early April to Bali, now early Feb and required covid insurance for $80.00 available on arrival, imagine have to be supported/underwritten by the Indonesian government.
As with all insurance "read the fine print" but believe that's what's available.

Along with the WA mining companies staff shortages there'd be more than a few locals wondering why east coast can fly to Bali - but WA can't.

And yet, Smartraveller advises :

You must apply for a visa in advance of travelling to Indonesia. Contact your nearest Indonesian Embassy or Consulate for information. To enter Indonesia, travellers aged 12 and above must have been fully vaccinated against COVID-19 at least 14 days before travel. You must have evidence of medical insurance coverage for COVID-19. Local authorities may also require you to install and use the COVID-19 ‘Peduli Lindungi’ app. You must meet COVID-19 testing requirements and quarantine at a hotel for five days in the city of arrival. Contact your travel provider for up-to-date details.

We continue to advise:

Do not travel (https://kcl89h5n.r.ap-southeast-2.awstrack.me/L0/https:%2F%2Fwww.smartraveller.gov.au%2Fconsular-services%2Ftravel-advice-explained%23level4/2/020800007k7mbhfn-nm37mn82-ti7u-2pn7-foha-bod42dfsn900-000000/Xa1Af0DfknVVF2Wbdk4gVocYMeE=21) to Indonesia, including Bali, due to the health risks from the COVID-19 pandemic and the significant disruptions to global travel.


Yeah, I can hardly wait.

[galdian]

Lots happening, maybe smarttraveller not updated quite yet?

Dunno, he's done his research, doesn't want to quarantine and the available medical insurance on arrival looks legit.

Also said when the February flights announced took a couple of days for porn* BC to only have 2 seats left so looks like there will be demand from some/many who are vaccd and decide to get on with life.

[43Inches]

The DFAT warning will hold current until borders officially open and then countries, provinces, cities will have more specific warnings if Covid is a risk factor.

The insurance companies will take your money, as the condition on insurance just says that the DFAT warning is not current at 'time of travel', and to postpone or change travel to that location if it is. It's your responsibility to ensure you comply with terms and conditions of travel at the required time. Insurance, Warranties, etc are worth nothing if the fine print is not complied with.

[WingNut60]

Lots happening, maybe smarttraveller not updated quite yet?
.....
That update was issued on Monday.

[43Inches]

I would say DFAT will not be updated until 1st of November when you are allowed to travel without an exemption. We are still under a blanket ban for travel so DFAT reflects that. That does not mean the advice will definitely change then, but it can't until that date.

[Dannyboy39]

No Tennis Australia is saying they can come but the Federal governments saying they won't get a Visa.
Scotty from Marketing has overruled this and is saying they can come into Aus. Got to love consistency.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Scotty from Marketing has overruled this and is saying they can come into Aus. Got to love consistency.

Yeah and we have to be double vaxxed to leave. WTF.

[C441]

Yeah and we have to be double vaxxed to leave. WTF.
I'm guessing that would be to ensure you are double vaxed when you return…...

[Koizi]

https://www.traveller.com.au/australia-international-borders-opening-dfat-removes-global-do-not-travel-warning-h1zfok

DFAT to remove global do not travel warning.

[WingNut60]

https://www.traveller.com.au/australia-international-borders-opening-dfat-removes-global-do-not-travel-warning-h1zfok

DFAT to remove global do not travel warning.
It'll be interesting to see what they do with Indonesia.

They just released a travel advice on Monday (24/10) affirming "Do not travel" for Indonesia.
Why would you do that if you intended to remove it just four days later???

Right hand not knowing................... etc??

[Cloudee]

Scotty from Marketing has overruled this and is saying they can come into Aus. Got to love consistency.
Vic Premier Dan has overruled Scotty and said unvaccinated tennis players won’t be competing in Victoria.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I'm guessing that would be to ensure you are double vaxed when you return…...

Sure. But to then allow unvaccinated tennis players to enter? Seems a tad hypocritical.

[galdian]

Vic Premier Dan has overruled Scotty and said unvaccinated tennis players won’t be competing in Victoria.

OK so where's the 2022 Oz open going to be held?

Perth's a no-go, Sydney the most obvious as probably most obliging, perhaps Brissie or Adelaide outside bets??

No offence to other capitals but difficult to handle the scale of the event.

I am of course assuming that Chairman Dan would never renounce that which he has announced!
Cheers

[601]

Vic Premier Dan has overruled Scotty and said unvaccinated tennis players won’t be competing in Victoria.

How did Dan overrule the PM?
One controls the State borders the other controls the International borders.
Your statement would have credence if Dan overruled the decision on the international borders.

[Derfred]

I don’t think there is actually any contradiction.

Scotty said “same rule for everyone, no exceptions” - and that rule is unvaccinated entry is allowed, you just need 14 days’ quarantine.

Dan said “same rule for everyone, no exceptions” - and that rule is you must be vaccinated to attend or participate in the Australian Open.

So Novak is welcome to come and watch the Australian Open on TV from quarantine at the Tullamarine Holiday Inn, but that’s as close as he’ll get to it.

[AceMT]

You following events in the USA?

The USA is bad right now. I can tell you it is nowhere near as bad as Australia and NZ. We have relinquished some freedoms here, but down under you people are lost. You will NEVER get back the freedoms you have given away so easily. I have traveled to almost 100 countries and previously loved both A & NZ, but I wouldn't go back now if you gave me a free first class ticket.

Oh wait, you wouldn't let me in anyway since I haven't taken the mandatory poison...

[dr dre]

The USA is bad right now. I can tell you it is nowhere near as bad as Australia and NZ. We have relinquished some freedoms here, but down under you people are lost. You will NEVER get back the freedoms you have given away so easily. I have traveled to almost 100 countries and previously loved both A & NZ, but I wouldn't go back now if you gave me a free first class ticket.

Oh wait, you wouldn't let me in anyway since I haven't taken the mandatory poison...

Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.

Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.

If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

[neville_nobody]

Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.

Well lets start with the freedom of movement within your own country without restriction or prejudice. Then let's look at the powers that Daniel Andrews wants passed in Victoria. When are these "emergency powers" going to end around the country? What is the trigger to even end them? Even the most lefty American would be horrified by what is going on here, it's a joke.

[Lead Balloon]

...And the freedom of an Australian citizen to return to his or her own country.

[aviation_enthus]

If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.



...And the freedom of an Australian citizen to return to his or her own country.

Hear, hear!!!

“oh but you were always allowed to return”…..

If you were travelling for business (company pays) or you were a single traveller, yes. But if you didn’t have the cash, forget it ($50,000+ for a family).

Is that the “egalitarian” country we all thought we lived in???

[Cloudee]

Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.

Well next time you go the USA as a non citizen you will have to show proof of vaccination (rules commencing 8th November 21. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/noncitizens-US-air-travel.html

What You Need to Know

You must be fully vaccinated to travel to the United States by plane if you are a non-U.S. citizen, non-U.S. immigrant (not a U.S. citizen, U.S. national, lawful permanent resident, or traveling to the United States on an immigrant visa). Only limited exceptions apply.
You are required to show a negative COVID-19 test result or documentation of recovery from COVID-19 when you travel to the United States by air. The timing of this test depends on your vaccination status and age.
Wearing a mask over your nose and mouth is required in indoor areas of public transportation (including airplanes) traveling into, within, or out of the United States and indoors in U.S. transportation hubs (including airports).

[Cloudee]

How did Dan overrule the PM?
One controls the State borders the other controls the International borders.
Your statement would have credence if Dan overruled the decision on the international borders.
Yeah you’re right, but Scotty said Novak could come ( presumably to play tennis at the AO ) but Dan won’t let him play on his court. As far as Novak is concerned it’s an overrule.

[dr dre]

Ahhhh no. This is NOT a requirement to enter the USA. Any arrival over 2 years old MUST have a negative PCR test and sign a form to state they have done a test or had COVID in the last 3 months.

No requirement to be vaccinated (even as non-citizen).

However the CDC “recommends” if you are unvaccinated, you isolate and get another test after arrival.

Unlike Australia, “recommend” is not enforced, I’ve travelled to the USA twice this year with family, we were never asked about our vaccination status.



That changed a few days ago, all non citizens arriving by air require proof of vaccination with only a few exemptions:

Requirement for Proof of COVID-19 Vaccination for Air Passengers Required for non-U.S. citizen, nonimmigrant passengers arriving from a foreign country to the United States by air (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/proof-of-vaccination.html)

There’s restrictions on Australian citizens movement for now but they will be largely over by early next year. The previous posts were indicating a permanent long term loss of freedoms compared to the US, I’m just enquiring what those freedoms are that have been permanently lost?

[aviation_enthus]

That changed a few days ago, all non citizens arriving by air require proof of vaccination with only a few exemptions:

Requirement for Proof of COVID-19 Vaccination for Air Passengers Required for non-U.S. citizen, nonimmigrant passengers arriving from a foreign country to the United States by air (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/proof-of-vaccination.html)

There’s restrictions on Australian citizens movement for now but they will be largely over by early next year. The previous posts were indicating a permanent long term loss of freedoms compared to the US, I’m just enquiring what those freedoms are that have been permanently lost?


Fair enough. Obviously things are changing there as well.

Just shows how frustrating travel is at the moment with all the changing requirements.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.


For perspective 750,000 sounds like a lot, and it is.

As a percentage of the US population - 0.24% have died with CV.

Everyone holding the US model as disastrous fails to see that 99.75% of the population didn’t die with CV.

But let’s keep peddling the fear and outrage at any loss of life, conveniently ignoring everything else that’s killing us and will continue to kill us long after CV is just another one of the many endemic diseases amongst us.

[43Inches]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x413/m_jvp210048t1_1620430592_92326_3304a6e5fcf87e64ac6d80a0e635e 79534164dd8.png

There's the actual US stats on 2020, 2021 will have higher proportion of COVID deaths as it will have a full year of full infection. It's quite clear that the overall death rate jumped some 10% or more over trend, meaning sadly for the skeptics out there they didn't just blame Coivid for other things. We also have to remember this is living with compensation for the disease including lockdowns, social distancing mask wearing. If it was left to spread like flu it would be significantly higher, NYC locked down pretty hard to stop the spread there as with other major cities affected. So being 3rd (10%) on the list of nasty things to die from in a year is nothing to sneeze at, especially when your target is doing things to stop you.

PS also have to remember that if they cure CVD, Cancer and Alzheimer, humans will be well on the way to living forever baring intervention from accidents and intentional harm. So Covid tops the list of external things trying to kill you.

Things that are vulnerable to Covid infection such as Heart disease and Diabetes also jumped in 2020, indicating maybe some were possibly Covid related as well.

BTW I see a worrying trend of Alzheimer deaths increasing in the US, hopefully they can find a cure or good treatment for that soon.

[AceMT]

Oh well I guess 750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off.

Could you list the “freedoms” Australia supposedly has given away? From your statement you seem to be in the US and relying on American media for your view of Australia, perhaps you watched Tucker Carlson’s show to form your view.

If you’re talking about vaccines for entry a non US citizen needs proof of vaccination to enter the US as well you know.

You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours

[SOPS]

You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours


Oh dear. Another one who knows the ‘truth’ and thinks Covid is just the flu. I thing you will find most people who are on the front line, treating people with Covid, will assure you it’s not. However, you are free to believe what ever truth you choose.

[Ladloy]

You're not even worth discussing facts with. You have been blinded by fear and liberalism. If you haven't watched the videos where people are being arrested for not wearing a MASK and think that is ok, then I have nothing more to say to you. "750,000 dead, the biggest mass death event in US history, is the trade off." You may want to do a little more research before you embarrass yourself. I watch ALL the media. The fake media AND the fact media. I am intelligent enough to discern which is real, you obviously are not and would rather be spoon fed the narrative that fits your agenda. Sheep!

Just to be clear, I have been exposed to Covid multiple times. I am NOT afraid of the flu. If you are get the jab, however, do not tell me what to put in my body, especially after the lecture about "my body my choice" regarding abortion after all these years.

PS I love Tucker. That has not always been so. However, he is one of the few mainstream media geeks standing up for true freedom. You have already acquiesced yours

This has to be satire.

[aviation_enthus]

There's the actual US stats on 2020, 2021 will have higher proportion of COVID deaths as it will have a full year of full infection.

But will it really? Given the widespread availability of the vaccine in the USA from at least mid-year, I’d argue the deaths will be similar. Total deaths is upto 750,000, so that would mean around 400,000 this year (yes it’s not over yet). Hardly a dramatic increase.


Things that are vulnerable to Covid infection such as Heart disease and Diabetes also jumped in 2020, indicating maybe some were possibly Covid related as well.

Heart disease was already on the rise every year displayed in your statistics. Diabetes as well. That’s probably got more to do with the rise in obese Americans than Covid!!

[43Inches]

But will it really? Given the widespread availability of the vaccine in the USA from at least mid-year, I’d argue the deaths will be similar. Total deaths is upto 750,000, so that would mean around 400,000 this year (yes it’s not over yet). Hardly a dramatic increase.


Never said it was going to be a dramatic increase, however that being said it will be about 20% higher than 2020, depends whether you think that a 20% increase is a similar number, large increase or whatever.

Heart disease was already on the rise every year displayed in your statistics. Diabetes as well. That’s probably got more to do with the rise in obese Americans than Covid!!


Trend is what you look for, the numbers will increase because the population in increasing. But, when you see CVD rising by 30,000 deaths in 4 years (average of less than 8,000 a year) and then jump 30,000 deaths in 1 year, that's above trend and usually indicates some additional factor. Diabetes follows a similar path, about 4500 a year trend then suddenly a 13,000 jump in 2020. This is all pre-Vaccine so no hand of those in additional deaths either.

As far as Obesity increase, that horse bolted probably back in the 80s for the US, as a trend % of population it would be statistically neutral or maybe slightly on the improve as of late. Like Covid tallies, most of those CVD and cancer deaths would be in the old aged as well, like I said if you could completely cure those you would be seeing humans live forever.

[AceMT]

Oh dear. Another one who knows the ‘truth’ and thinks Covid is just the flu. I thing you will find most people who are on the front line, treating people with Covid, will assure you it’s not. However, you are free to believe what ever truth you choose.
Gee, thanks for allowing me to think freely. I assure you in the future ,at the rate we are going, that will NOT be the case as many of you are giving away freedoms too easily.

As for your stupid comment about front line folk thinking differently, I know many, and a lot of them echo what I am saying. Do you actually know any or are you just regurgitating the medias line? My niece is a nurse and she refuses to take the jab after what she has seen. If you have no comorbidity, it isn't much worse than the flu at all. If you are obese, have diabetes, etc, then your risk is obviously higher.

Good luck out there socialists....

[turbantime]

As for your stupid comment about front line folk thinking differently, I know many, and a lot of them echo what I am saying.
No they’re not. Depending on the state, statistically 97-99% of health workers have got the jab. Every single doctor/nurse/allied health professional I know has got the jab. There is a pragmatic world outside of your echo chamber.

[43Inches]

Good luck out there socialists....

And you do know that the opposite of a mandated socialist health policy is not capitalism, as that is an economic model, but is being a Libertarian, which is still a leftist Marxist philosophy and can be considered part of a communist agenda, therefore still socialism. Libertarian means you are against mass social controls and structured authority choosing for you, rather each individual can choose their own path without government or corporate interference (oops who would've thunk socialism is so complicated). Right wing libertarianism is focused on property, and taxes between entities being free of interference and cost, not health related.

So before you call out others with political slogans, make sure you know what you actually stand for. As you might just be on the same side of the fence in reality of what you are calling out.

[neville_nobody]

And you do know that the opposite of a mandated socialist health policy is not capitalism, as that is an economic model, but is being a Libertarian, which is still a leftist Marxist philosophy and can be considered part of a communist agenda, therefore still socialism.


I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.

Meanwhile I read that the lunacy of Australian State Borders is continuing where you can now fly half way around the world but not within your own country. This then begs the question of how legal the state border restrictions have become. Are we going to start following the constitution or are we now 7 independent countries?

[43Inches]

I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.

You are talking economic policy not health policy. A "Health System" is a socialist policy, same as shared fire services and police forces. If the user pays for each use then that is Capitalism as a method of paying for the system, the user may not get a choice of options, but is left to pay for it by themselves at whatever cost may be. A socialist community could have a pay as you use system, the difference being its run by the community and not by state or corporation. If you have communal systems such as health and you demand a choice of opting in or out and are free to do so that is Libertarian. If the system demands you participate with no choice then that is Totalitarian and on into Fascism.

Communism is a socialist ideology so expands on socialism into more structured government, they are not one and the same thing.

So in short Socialism is a ideal of communal run services, you can run those services as opt in or out or have a number of choices for the same service. Libertarians (left wing) will demand all services and rules are optional to pay and participate in, Fascism (right wing) authority will command the opposite that the state dictates whats good for you and how you pay for it.

Capitalism is a system of economics, where the economy is allowed complete freedom to operate, which in turn means survival of the fittest. In pure capitalism there are no rules just trade and the economy sets the price for goods, until of course you get monopolies and services no one wants to do. Then you need government intervention to modify the economy to make the whole system work. Socialism and Capitalism are not directly relatable but do interfere with each other in various ways, there's no such thing as a Socialist/Capitalist slider that you can move either way in government like they make out.

[logansi]

Gee, thanks for allowing me to think freely. I assure you in the future ,at the rate we are going, that will NOT be the case as many of you are giving away freedoms too easily.

As for your stupid comment about front line folk thinking differently, I know many, and a lot of them echo what I am saying. Do you actually know any or are you just regurgitating the medias line? My niece is a nurse and she refuses to take the jab after what she has seen. If you have no comorbidity, it isn't much worse than the flu at all. If you are obese, have diabetes, etc, then your risk is obviously higher.

Good luck out there socialists....

Where is the freedom for the dead people soon as freedoms are so important to you.

Also just to give you an idea of how bad things are in America, I lived in America working as a pilot for 2 years about 10 years ago. From the small group of friends and colleges I worked with, I know personally of 8 people who have died of covid, including 4 pilots, all 4 of whom we're current Airline Pilots and thus held current class 1 medicals, 3 of them under 50.

For those in Australia, think of your an airline a bit smaller from REX and the people you would know personally by name while working there for 2 years. Now imagine 4 of those pilots died in the same year from the same cause.

Meanwhile I've living here in Victoria for the rest of my life and know of 2 people who have had covid,1 of whom was hospitalised.

[StudentInDebt]

I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance
Um, that’s going to be an interesting health system…. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertine

[43Inches]

Haha, and yeah a Libertine is another thing all together, I missed that...

[neville_nobody]

That's why you don't rely on spell check to correct your typos!:\ Libertarianism is what I meant.

[Icarus2001]

If you have communal systems such as health and you demand a choice of opting in or out and are free to do so that is Libertarian. If the system demands you participate with no choice then that is Totalitarian and on into Fascism. So Medicare is evidence of a Totalitarian state? I cannot opt out of it...:ugh:

[43Inches]

I was pointing at the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Modern democracies sit in the middle somewhere but lean to the left, so you get a mix of everything. It's quite obvious that there will be things that have to be forced on people, ie don't kill your neighbour, otherwise you are forced into jail. Something like medicare is a simple argument that the whole population must be in it or the system doesn't work. Should it have been farmed out as a separate 'tax', well that's political, as making you see how much it costs makes you feel like you don't need it and encourage moves towards privatisation and user pays systems. If the tax system also gave you a bill for our defense budget you would feel the same so they don't play with that so they can adjust it at will.

The other option to medicare is insurance based user pays, which in the US is pretty much un-affordable by the lower socioeconomic populations. So they just take their chances uninsured and usually with no way to afford the medical bills.

[AerialPerspective]

I suggest you brush up on your definitions as Marxism, socialism, and Libertinism are not what you are describing here. The opposite to a socialist style health system is user pays, either out of your own pocket or the insurance company's.

Meanwhile I read that the lunacy of Australian State Borders is continuing where you can now fly half way around the world but not within your own country. This then begs the question of how legal the state border restrictions have become. Are we going to start following the constitution or are we now 7 independent countries?

Perhaps you should re-read the Constitution. Yes, in s92 it guarantees free movement between the States, but in s118 it requires "Full faith and credit shall be given, throughout the Commonwealth, to the laws, the public Acts and records, and the judicial proceedings of any State."

That means what is says, as States have health powers within their individual jurisdictions, they have the right to impose internal quarantine measures in relation to the territory they control and/or have jurisdiction over, not national quarantine as that is a Commonwealth responsibility and only relates to entry into the Commonwealth from external territories and/or sovereign States and not internal carriage.

I don't think we want to interfere with that provision in the interests of what is really a once in a hundred year pandemic. If we do, then you might find yourself needing to get a Drivers' License in every State and Territory if you want to drive across the country, because it's that sort of thing that allows freedom of movement.

I think everyone just needs to calm down a bit as this is not going to last forever. However, there is a perfectly sound constitutional basis for what is being done, the States have the power. The Commonwealth constitution ONLY applies where it relates to a Commonwealth head of power enumerated in s51.

And s109 won't help either (inconsistency of laws) because it does not apply unless the Commonwealth has jurisdiction, because State Constitutions are preserved upon establishment of the Commonwealth, except in areas ceded to the Commonwealth.

It's not as simple as reading one section of the constitution.

[AerialPerspective]

I was pointing at the two opposite ends of the spectrum. Modern democracies sit in the middle somewhere but lean to the left, so you get a mix of everything. It's quite obvious that there will be things that have to be forced on people, ie don't kill your neighbour, otherwise you are forced into jail. Something like medicare is a simple argument that the whole population must be in it or the system doesn't work. Should it have been farmed out as a separate 'tax', well that's political, as making you see how much it costs makes you feel like you don't need it and encourage moves towards privatisation and user pays systems. If the tax system also gave you a bill for our defense budget you would feel the same so they don't play with that so they can adjust it at will.

The other option to medicare is insurance based user pays, which in the US is pretty much un-affordable by the lower socioeconomic populations. So they just take their chances uninsured and usually with no way to afford the medical bills.

It also creates a free-for-all where the medical system is designed to benefit ONLY the profit motive of the insurance companies.

I often equate Medicare with the TAC in Victoria, having lived in other States, such as NSW, the cost of TAC 3rd party coverage in Victoria is chicken feed compared with the obscene 'green slip' system in NSW which is at least 3-4 times as much and only covers the basics, whereas in Victoria, if you are incapacitated, TAC as it's non-profit, has the capability to supply, for example, a person to mow your lawns (pay for it that is) until you are recovered. Why?? because the GREED element is removed as TAC is non-profit with any excess being piped into items such as the above or into road safety initiatives.

In large populations, single payer is ALWAYS going to be the better option - imagine if, like in the past, you had to pay a private police force to protect you or the fire brigade and they just drove past if your premium was late or unpaid. That's a crap system. The problem is that most Americans call that 'socialism' yet they have more publicly funded policing than just about any other country and their military is largely a smorgasbord of unnecessary expenditure - i.e. 'socialism' to get the vote of a Senator or a Representative in a certain district. The US DoD is the very essence of socialism by the US definition.

Truth is, they, and most people who throw the term around wouldn't actually know socialism if it stood up in their morning corn flakes. If they knew anything about it they would recognise it because, as in the Soviet days, their 'corn-flakes' would be a box containing hundreds of little plastic cosmonauts with a single plastic bag contain a single cornflake (crop failures).

That's because 'socialism' is actually ownership of ALL the means of production by the State/people via the State - what we have is a mixed system, where some things that are more logically done by the government because of economies of scale are done for the common good - just look at the cost of our system in Australia, something like 9% of GDP and in the US it used to be 17%, probably more now, and nearly 50m are not covered.

I'm happy to live in such a society where a child who has a rare disease gets to live a near normal life because all of us effectively throw in fractions of a cent each to get him/her the million dollar drug - whereas the US attitude is "sucks to be you, sell your house for 12 months worth of medicine".

Still, for a corrupt government that throws up 'voter ID' as a thought bubble when there are so many other REAL problems to be solved, such as election funding corruption, who knows what we'll end up with if this mob stays in - it's clear at this point they have no shame regarding doing anything to get their miserable a-ses re-elected.

Have no doubt if the AEC didn't exist they'd be gerrymandering to hell.

[Clare Prop]

Socialism is where the state owns and controls the means of production. Communism is when the people own and control the means of production, Similar to your example of little plastic Cosmonauts, a friend who lived in the USSR said there were shops full of identical ugly shoes, but no bread.
We have a mixture of socialism and capitalism in Australia and although far from perfect it works a lot better than many other places. Being a monarchy seems to be enough of a safety valve to protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...

[43Inches]

Socialism is not really a form of goverment, its an ideology, marxism and onto communism are governmental forms. The construct of capitalism being the enemy of the proletariat was brought in by Marx as part of Marxism. Capitalism was portrayed as being the same system evolved from feudalism, with the same protagonists at the top oppressing the masses. Hence where the socialist vs capitalist dogma that has abound since.

PS many in the field do not regard the USSR as ever having practiced communism, rather more a direct form of dictatorship.

[Clare Prop]

Socialism is not really a form of goverment, its an ideology, marxism and onto communism are governmental forms. The construct of capitalism being the enemy of the proletariat was brought in by Marx as part of Marxism. Capitalism was portrayed as being the same system evolved from feudalism, with the same protagonists at the top oppressing the masses. Hence where the socialist vs capitalist dogma that has abound since.
Whereas communism is different protagonists oppressing the masses!

[White Knight]

protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...

But it would seem there are lunatics at State Premier level:rolleyes:

[WingNut60]

But it would seem there are lunatics at State Premier level:rolleyes:
Well, at least one has gone.

[SHVC]

Well, at least one has gone.

Could very well be two by mid next yr.

[AerialPerspective]

Socialism is where the state owns and controls the means of production. Communism is when the people own and control the means of production, Similar to your example of little plastic Cosmonauts, a friend who lived in the USSR said there were shops full of identical ugly shoes, but no bread.
We have a mixture of socialism and capitalism in Australia and although far from perfect it works a lot better than many other places. Being a monarchy seems to be enough of a safety valve to protect us from lunatics becoming presidents...

The monarchy has zero to do with it. It is an enduring commitment by Australian's generally and even our leaders to date, that respect the law and quietly go when the people speak. The United States shows that when people decided to push the guide-rails at the edges, any system will potentially fracture. What we have in Canberra now is a government that has shown no shame when it comes to virtually ignoring the High Court (a la Dutton getting a visa cancellation overturned, then going back to his office and cancelling the visa again for a different reason, tantamount to contempt of the HC), raiding journalists for reporting the truth about government corruption and even the alleged murder of innocent civilians by our military and orchestrating to spy on a friendly and very poor country to fraudulently do them out of their oil and gas revenue, then the sorry sack of crap that orchestrated it left politics and along with his department head, took a job with the private company that stood to benefit. He's not in jail, neither of them are, but this corrupt successor government is currently persecuting the whistleblower and his lawyer under the guise of a secret trial - if there was ANY justice or descent laws against corruption, the former Minister and the Dept. Head would be in jail or being tried now.

People tend to point to Trump who is only ONE of 44 Presidents to be an imbecile and a crook, yes, what Nixon did was bad but he wasn't as bad as Trump and Buchanan was useless but that's three out of 231 years so one can hardly say we are 'safer' just because we have an imaginary figurehead who seems to be a person but lives in another country, that is skipping over all the facts.

This country is worse than the US when it comes to a rampant executive with virtually zero checks and balances which can basically do whatever it wants - with no restraint in terms of a bill of rights or any constitutional guarantees of process. Trump tried, but he was incompetent and the US Constitution is in many ways a very well structured document that effectively saw just about every attempt he made be resisted by the system. There is at least a chance Trump will go to jail for election interference if not for out and out fraud from the many State cases against him. He is desperately trying to hide documents and information from prosecutors and investigators. However, Congress is really the problem, it is a body that has basically, in many ways, ceased to function, being dominated to a large extent by morons who think wildfires are caused by Jewish 'space lasers' and who think nothing matters because Jesus is coming to rapture them.

Nothing at all to do with the fact they are a republic. Just look at some of the things Trump tried, banning certain religions from the country, overturned by the courts because it violated the First Amendment, attempting to illegally steal an election by 'finding votes' but was thwarted by the separation of powers and the independence of the State apparatus. He tried extortion of a foreign leader and was impeached by the House of Representatives, twice, he wasn't convicted in the Senate but the impeachment stands and at least a couple of Republicans voted for removal from office.

None of those protections exist in Australia and as I said, the Queen has nothing whatsoever to do with it, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting....... that there's some magical stabilising influence, if so, how did it go with the Coup in Fiji - QEII must have been so busy keeping Australia stable that Fiji overthrew their government and declared themselves a republic (not a republic actually in the correct sense of the word, just as China can call themselves a republic all they like, but they never will be a 'republic' in the correct sense while they are a one-party state). QEII's influence also didn't stop the US invading Grenada. The United States, a constitutional republic, overthrowing a Commonwealth realm when the Queen presumably ran out of stabilising 'puff'.

The notion that the Queen saves us is fantasy, just as the notion that this is a purely representative democracy. The current government in Canberra rules virtually by feat, they know they're on the nose so what do we get, with the myriad problems that need solving such as poverty, indigenous disadvantage, rebuilding the economy after the pandemic?? Voter ID, FFS, it's a solution searching for a problem. The number of irregularities in our elections which are HEAVILY scrutinised by party representatives and independent scrutineers is almost non-existent and invariably the result of confused people voting, then forgetting they voted and voting again - even that will be eradicated when the electoral rolls used at polling booths go to networked PCs that instantly update records so if you go to another booth, you'll be shown as already being marked off - the only difference to now is that it's picked up a little later after polls close by the machine reading of electoral rolls at each booth.

But of course, Voter 'ID' isn't a solution to any electoral process problem, real or imagined, it's a solution for a different problem, that being that this government has p-ssed so many people off, most of them poor (robodebt), has gone against its promises to retirees and has done nothing for the indigenous, ALL of whom are likely to vote against them so we'll pass this hasty and ill-thought out piece of legislation to make sure the sort of people who hate them, who also don't have the social mobility or wealth to own cars or a passport will be turned away at the ballot box and queues will be 10 times as long, effectively disenfranchising those they stand to lose through their votes. It is cynically and likely the most disgusting and shameful move by any government since federation. From a PM who can't lie straight in bed. I'm no fan of the French but think back and ask which other PM any of us can remember being called a 'liar' in public by an ally.

All of this happens, whistleblowers facing life in jail, laws that can put you in prison for satirical parody of a government institution - just ask Juice Media how they were brow-beaten by the 'Feds' and warned to stop using their clearly parodied coat of arms. The performance of the then AG was almost laughable.

And guess what, all this happens and QEII just sits in her castle, sipping tea and eating scones and doing what she's bloody well told when an Australian PM asks her to appoint a GG (or remove one) and a constitution that removes ANY power other than that from her and bestows it upon a GG who is not elected and MUST do precisely what the Cabinet tell him/her to do without question or face removal.

Sorry, but being a monarchy makes no difference. Thailand is a monarchy and their previous Monarch was considered a 'god' but the country can't go a week without a coup or shooting of people by the Army - and their current King is a buffoon.

Constitutional guide-rails, respect for the people's judgement and a general respect for the rule of law is what has kept us stable, not the Queen (for goodness sake, before he abdicated, Edward considered Hitler a great friend and he was an admirer.

[AerialPerspective]

Whereas communism is different protagonists oppressing the masses!

Reminds me of an old Soviet joke - "Dimitry, do you think our grandchildren will see full communism achieved??" "Yes Vladimir, the poor bastards."

[Chad Gates]

While I’ll hold judgment until we see details, McGowan has said he will announce a roadmap for living with COVID on Friday. That’s a heck of a movement forward from next year.
Also, after making up a ridiculous excuse (something about border hopping, but actually couldn’t be done) to keep NSW “extreme risk” 2 days ago, he’s now received “updated health advise” that says he can reduce it to high risk. Looks like he had no choice after he let the bloke from the US in to see his dying mother, he now has to give everyone with a compassionate reason to return a G2G.
Somebody must be applying some pressure. He looks quite uncomfortable these days when being asked about the borders.

[SHVC]

I didn’t even know the border was still shut with WA. Covid is non existent over here over the last two or so weeks I’ve read or heard barely nothing.

[Chad Gates]

That’s great (I’m assuming you’re over east?). We in the west though are still very much effected by it. Not all of us are happy clappers like SOPS and the 3 blokes he knows who keep telling him at BBQ’s how much they love all this ;)

[SHVC]

I feel your pain, your lockdown has a few months to run yet. As MM fades away and no one cares he will open a little earlier… maybe.

[nivsy]

Sometimes frankly, WA being so remote loses all grip on reality especially over vaccinations and COVID . You just need to watch the news programmes and they never real touch on international issues...and they are I am afraid inward looking full of own self importance (many), and don't know much about world reality (nor how to drive)!!

I've lived in Europe for many years and while I have been here for two years now (my wife wanted to come back and is from WA) I am astounded sometimes at the arrogant nature and self entitlement culture. I also want to fly again!!

Now I know many are likely to disagree and probably tell me to go back (I'm working on that) but it's my observations from over 50 years in Europe.

[WingNut60]

Sometimes frankly, WA being so remote loses all grip on reality especially over vaccinations and COVID . You just need to watch the news programmes and they never real touch on international issues...and they are I am afraid inward looking full of own self importance (many), and don't know much about world reality (nor how to drive)!!.

Well Nivsy, being a man of the world you might also have noticed that, with the exception of Kerry Stokes' Channel 7, the news on WA TV is not only Australian-biased, it is also heavily NSW / VIC biased.
Great if your interested in the weather in Killara or crowd numbers at the rugby league games or why every state should erect giant statues of Beryl.
That is because the bl....dy lot comes out of the "eastern states".

Channel 7 is the only one giving substantial WA content and that is a deliberate counter to the drivel that we have to endure from the others.

[SOPS]

That’s great (I’m assuming you’re over east?). We in the west though are still very much effected by it. Not all of us are happy clappers like SOPS and the 3 blokes he knows who keep telling him at BBQ’s how much they love all this ;)

it’s actually 8 guys. 😆

[43Inches]

Population of Perth can't be much more than a few hundred, so he has maybe 80 people that like him. Maybe when they get to 1000 they can have some local TV and stuff.

[WingNut60]

Population of Perth can't be much more than a few hundred, so he has maybe 80 people that like him. Maybe when they get to 1000 they can have some local TV and stuff.
We had local TV.
It was all taken over by east coast propagandists long ago.

[SHVC]

That’s to funny, WA always talking of a secession, can’t run a health system and does not have local TV network to tell them how bad it is. Maybe that’s why it was sold off.

[Potsie Weber]

We still have Fat Cat telling us to go to bed at 7:30pm. Last bastion of local TV.

[dr dre]

Well you’ve got some sort of a plan out of WA.

Whilst a specific date is not locked in yet it’ll be around late January, which if you’ve listened to what was being said in local rags shouldn’t be too surprising.

The one thing that was a bit unexpected was the announcement that international travel will resume around the same time subject to conditions (vaccination and neg test before and after arrival) and no quarantine.

I had thought that there would be a delay of several months between domestic and international borders reopening, which is why some airlines had forecast scheduled international services resuming in April/May.

Surely better news, albeit not perfect, for those operating international flights out of Perth than what was previously expected.

[nivsy]

It's a plan yes. Now let's see if the population "embraces" the percentage figure for vaccination quoted before anything happens. Call me cynical but with WA who knows!

[SOPS]

It's a plan yes. Now let's see if the population "embraces" the percentage figure for vaccination quoted before anything happens. Call me cynical but with WA who knows!

Well with the number of people currently calling talk back radio to say the will never get vaccinated because they know ‘ the truth’ ( that has been hidden from the rest of us) , we may never get to the required number for the borders to open.

[nivsy]

Well with the number of people currently calling talk back radio to say the will never get vaccinated because they know ‘ the truth’ ( that has been hidden from the rest of us) , we may never get to the required number for the borders to open.
Yep .words fail me...😤😒..funny how certain people in WA know "the truth" yet the world does not....so WA

[dr dre]

It's a plan yes. Now let's see if the population "embraces" the percentage figure for vaccination quoted before anything happens. Call me cynical but with WA who knows!

From what was announced once the reopening date is set it’s locked in, and if the vax targets are not met they still reopen but there’ll be further restrictions on masks and capacity limits, so the state will be open but it puts a burden on the lazy to get vaccinated so they can be blamed for any mask wearing requirements.

As far as doses go NSW, Vic have reached 90% first dose, Tasmania is just about to and the ACT is over 90% double doses so the figure is easily achievable.

[dr dre]

Well with the number of people currently calling talk back radio to say the will never get vaccinated because they know ‘ the truth’ ( that has been hidden from the rest of us) , we may never get to the required number for the borders to open.

The volume of anti-vaxxers is always far out of proportion to their actual numbers.

For instance in some companies both in Australia and overseas while in surveys 15-20% of people said they wouldn’t get vaccinated, in reality when push came to shove the actual amount of refusers was less than 1%.

Like on this forum, at various times I’d say 20-30% of posters were anti-vax, but the rate of vaccine refusal in aviation workers is minuscule.

Yep .words fail me...😤😒..funny how certain people in WA know "the truth" yet the world does not....so WA

There’s been anti-vax protests in every state. I think Victoria has had the most and they’re over 90% DD.

[SOPS]

From what was announced once the reopening date is set it’s locked in, and if the vax targets are not met they still reopen but there’ll be further restrictions on masks and capacity limits, so the state will be open but it puts a burden on the lazy to get vaccinated so they can be blamed for any mask wearing requirements.

As far as doses go NSW, Vic have reached 90% first dose, Tasmania is just about to and the ACT is over 90% double doses so the figure is easily achievable.

We currently need 250000 people to get vaccinated to reach the 80 percent when the opening date will be set. That’s a quarter of a million people that need two vaccinations. If they reckon that will happen by January.. they are dreaming

[dr dre]

We currently need 250000 people to get vaccinated to reach the 80 percent when the opening date will be set. That’s a quarter of a million people that need two vaccinations. If they reckon that will happen by January.. they are dreaming

Tomorrow WA hits 80% first dose. Almost all who have one will have two and with mRNA vaccines the interval will be 3-4 weeks so then 80% double dose will be reached, and then set the date based on 90% which is currently around 13th of January. Even if that blows out by a week or two it’ll still mean a late January date is locked in around the end of this month.