All borders to reopen.

[Stickshift3000]

For other people, their $200 per week delivering junk mail is all that they have. Take that away and they have nothing.

The dole pays more...

[Capn Rex Havoc]

43In - you have an uncanny knack for picking one example and somehow proffering that as evidence that everything is ok. Paragraph377 was giving a general - realistic view of the economic hardship that is a bloody reality out there for tens of thousands. So maybe your local junk mail delivery fellow is still working (hard to see how delivering junk mail is essential) but the their are a hell of a lot of other people, in the arts, hospitality, tourism etc etc who have had a gut full. The protests will get bigger and bigger from now on.

[Xeptu]

The average australian is increasingly accepting that when we get to a point where all those who can/will are vaccinated then the validity of lockdowns become increasingly questionable.
The average australian is also increasingly accepting that at some stage we have to live with this and accept a level of sickness, hospitalisation, ICU and death; being vaccinated will lessen the effects of Covid, Covid cannot be eliminated.

The timeline is nominally end of this year, the Feds will make it clear - they already are - there will be no hope for financial assistance to lockdown states after this time; there'll probably be assistance/infrastructure grants available for states who won't lockdown.

I agree with what you say here and I'm sure most do. I think the timeline is pushed back now because of what's about to unfold in NSW. The states understand that by waving the carrot around about open borders and reduced restrictions too soon only inflames the restless ones and promotes covid fatigue. Something I'm sure NSW deeply regrets.
I wouldn't read too much into what the leaders say nationally in the media, that's more about staying the path, what they actually do is quite different.

[Lead Balloon]

You do realise these people are not locked down, I say hello to my local junk-mailers and paper rounders as I walk around my 5 km limit. ....And that's the problem!

The virus does not know that "lockdown" and "border closure" are mere rhetorical flourishes. There have been a small number of circumstances in which the reality has come close to the rhetoric, and NSW moving a little closer in some LGAs, but the delta between the reality and the rhetoric is the primary cause of the spread (pun intended).

[Paragraph377]

43In - you have an uncanny knack for picking one example and somehow proffering that as evidence that everything is ok. Paragraph377 was giving a general - realistic view of the economic hardship that is a bloody reality out there for tens of thousands. So maybe your local junk mail delivery fellow is still working (hard to see how delivering junk mail is essential) but the their are a hell of a lot of other people, in the arts, hospitality, tourism etc etc who have had a gut full. The protests will get bigger and bigger from now on.

Thank goodness someone understands my point.

Then again, this is PPprune, a land where opinionated self serving pilots (and ex-pilots, including yours truly) inhabit and offer robust opinion, debate and argument on all manner of things from world politics and the theory of a universal deity to cooking truffle and goat cheese soufflé’s, to anal bleachings!

[43Inches]

If you are going to use an example or analogy, make sure it's valid. Don't just spew opinions based on some thought, that you haven't thought through. I find that some of you are very removed from the reality of one, covid and two what low paid life is really like and are speaking for people you have little connection with. This really shows in your comments, hence why I have added I have friends on both sides of the fence both in big business and in low paid work, both sides are coping fine, but are suffering some stress (for various reasons). It's quite easy to spot what's going on when you actually engage with your community rather than sit and rummage through internet conspiracies about what might be happening to your neighbors. Get out and speak to them it's great for your mental health.

I watched a Psycologist from Cairns on the morning news talking about the effects of Lockdown on Sydney and Melbourne kids and sprouting that Dan is Covering up important information on teenage girls. Now I listened to what he had to say, but surely they could have got one of thousands of child psychologists in Melbourne or Sydney to talk about this, from an actual front line point of view. From an anecdotal point of view our parents group has mentioned a number of young girls who have gone to see the psych this year, because they are struggling with school, mainly bullying when its open, not lockdown. So context to the numbers in our area is nothing to do with lockdown at all, that could be different for different communities, but who knows.

[minigundiplomat]

China’s eyeing 50% cuts to their iron ore exports from Australia; about the only thing keeping the national economy afloat at the moment.

Whatever the plan, the deadbeats, misfits and wannabe dictators we’ve somehow elevated to power need to stop bickering and get the hell on with it.

[machtuk]

Thank goodness someone understands my point.

Then again, this is PPprune, a land where opinionated self serving pilots (and ex-pilots, including yours truly) inhabit and offer robust opinion, debate and argument on all manner of things from world politics and the theory of a universal deity to cooking truffle and goat cheese soufflé’s, to anal bleachings!

Guys there are many who don't subscribe to the indoctrinated fear prolific poster merchants in here so you are not alone, they just don't spend their entire lives as Govt soldiers:-)
When the draconian laws of the criminals in charge ramp up to the point where food parcels will be delivered then the push back will explode!

[SHVC]

NSW are changing the narrative of the current marathon covid press conferences. I can see once 60% or the 70% target being reached Gladys will not report case numbers. It looks we are heading in just reporting vaccination levels and deaths.

Also, is it just me or BH and CMO KC are never in the same room since the inquest few weeks ago almost seems they can’t tolerate each other.

[Ascend Charlie]

One problem is the dip****s who refuse to acknowledge the existence of the virus.

Another problem is the selfish types who are only looking out for themselves - like the drug dealer from the country who drove to western Sydney, collected his drugs and a dose of Covid, and went back to the regional centres to sell his drugs and hand out a free dose of the disease. With any luck, it will only be the users who catch it, but sadly they will pass it on to the non-users and keep the rounds of lockdowns going.

Spare a crocodile tear for the Internet Influencer (Influenza?) who organises protests and somehow gets paid for it, got arrested 3 times, got bailed 3 times, told police he was homeless and couch surfing when he was really in a luxury hotel, at somebody else's expense. He finally gets caught again, the story unravels, and to poor little thing starts to cry about his misfortune as the conviction is draped around his neck.

[White Knight]

It’s going well then Ozmates???? Much of the rest of the world opening up and you’re still p1ssing around with pointless lockdowns! Laughable!!!

[Al R]

Guys there are many who don't subscribe to the indoctrinated fear prolific poster merchants in here so you are not alone, they just don't spend their entire lives as Govt soldiers:-)
When the draconian laws of the criminals in charge ramp up to the point where food parcels will be delivered then the push back will explode!

It was clear quite early on that Covid was largely a disease of institutions. Care home residents comprised c50% of all deaths, despite making up a fraction of the population, and hospital infections have been the major driver of transmission rates. Citadel protection was vital. God only knows what has been going on in Oz and NZ. The world is opening up and in NSW, they’re shooting dogs, gassing kids and firing a ton rounds at tax payers. Sure, maybe there was a case for restrictions when Covid was new and unknown, but that point of reasonable as was passed long ago.

[Ladloy]

It’s going well then Ozmates???? Much of the rest of the world opening up and you’re still p1ssing around with pointless lockdowns! Laughable!!!
Scotty forgot to order enough vaccines, that's all there is to say about it. The states are paying for the federal government's failings.

[Xeptu]

It’s going well then Ozmates???? Much of the rest of the world opening up and you’re still p1ssing around with pointless lockdowns! Laughable!!!

Yeah! but then the rest of the world is vaccinated, we are not, apparently it wasn't a race according to Slomo. Doing our best to catch up.

[Foxxster]

Scotty forgot to order enough vaccines, that's all there is to say about it. The states are paying for the federal government's failings.

and for their own politics. Like Queensland. And their big scare campaign on AstraZeneca. Knowing full well it was Morrison’s weak point. Utterly f cking disgraceful.

[machtuk]

It was clear quite early on that Covid was largely a disease of institutions. Care home residents comprised c50% of all deaths, despite making up a fraction of the population, and hospital infections have been the major driver of transmission rates. Citadel protection was vital. God only knows what has been going on in Oz and NZ. The world is opening up and in NSW, they’re shooting dogs, gassing kids and firing a ton rounds at tax payers. Sure, maybe there was a case for restrictions when Covid was new and unknown, but that point of reasonable as was passed long ago.

Well said but it's way too late for common sense now like other countries, we have too many power trip lunatics in control being manipulated by un-elected bureaucrats behind the scenes, essentially we are F**ked!

[Ladloy]

and for their own politics. Like Queensland. And their big scare campaign on AstraZeneca. Knowing full well it was Morrison’s weak point. Utterly f cking disgraceful.
it could have been prevented if the federal government didn't handball responsibility to the states from the start. He and Hunt could have continued the narrative but instead when the AZ reports started to come out they hid away. It's just like when NSW started to fall, Scomo didn't speak publicly for five whole days but was happy to get in front of the mic in May when Melbourne went into lockdown. All of it is bull**** politics.

[43Inches]

It was clear quite early on that Covid was largely a disease of institutions. Care home residents comprised c50% of all deaths, despite making up a fraction of the population, and hospital infections have been the major driver of transmission rates. Citadel protection was vital.

Correct for 1 year ago, unfortunately that info is not correct anymore, the rate of those in ICU during delta is up to 25% under 40s. I know personally 3 families in the US that have had their under 5 year old in ICU for up to a week, not just for observation. Severe nausea, vomiting and diarrhea, they have to be sedated and put on fluids as they refuse to eat, drink or even talk, that is how covid affects them. These were completely healthy active toddlers. BTW something not mentioned here is that Delta does have different symptoms to Alpha strain.

[Foxxster]

Entertainment break.

https://youtu.be/ESJRwqU3ARw

[Xeptu]

Hahaaar! now that's a gold standard

[43Inches]

Hahaaar! now that's a gold standard

One thing NSW has achieved in glorious fashion is having relegated "gold standard" now to a symbol of overconfidence and pride before the fall.

[Gnadenburg]

Spoken like a true chinese national beating to a different drum.

Another bizarre post. I don't have any idea what you are on about.

[Xeptu]

Another bizarre post. I don't have any idea what you are on about.

That's because your a commie, on ya bike mate, your blown

[43Inches]

Hmm. The fatality rate published by Public Health England for those under fifty shows that more youngsters die if they’re vaccinated than if they’re not. “Vaccine passports” are now dead in the water, especially with a population already irate with the government and a squeamish Johnson.

Not sure what you mean by youngsters, no vaccines are approved for under 12 yet in the UK or USA, and not expected for another 4-6 months.

As for higher mortality of vaccinated we covered that way back 100 posts ago, that's just skewed data as the vaccine does give many people total immunity, the few that get severe breakthrough have a higher rate only. The UK study also found that some of the Unvaxed were on their second go at covid, ie had been reinfected, so had some immunity. There is no doubt that vaccination was proved to be 80-97% effective and preventing, and reducing symptoms and death rate.

Also be very careful when reading data out of context, as in what level of vaccination did they have, the Israeli study on Pfizer had people that only had one shot at the start, so vaccinated was from 1 shot to two shots and minimum 2 weeks post full vaccination. It was quite clear in the Israeli study that within 2 weeks of the first shot the infection rate was similar to unvaxed and by 45 days, or complete vaccination + 2 weeks the vaccinated cohort virtually had no infection and similar drop in hospitalisation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-55718553

Covid passes seem far from dead, only news about them at the moment is Boris stuffed up some legislation with regard to forcing nightclubs to only allow vaccinated patrons in. Otherwise their use for travel and other things is ongoing. Otherwise you will need a NHS Covid pass to go clubbing from September.

[601]

it could have been prevented if the federal government didn't handball responsibility to the states from the start.
Better brush on the Australian Constitution.

[3Greens]

That's because your a commie, on ya bike mate, your blown

this absolute stroker doesn’t even know the difference between “your” and “you’re”. Doubtful he,or she, could contribute anything of any use to the thread.

[Dannyboy39]

I think the reinfection rate was only like 4% of cases.

[Agent_86]

Only 753 cases today :D

[Gnadenburg]

That's because your a commie, on ya bike mate, your blown

To the contrary:

I outlined early, Australia's COVID response being a civil defence failure and a template for coercion or defeat at the hands of the Chinese Communist Party. This all exacerbated by foolish State parochialism's who seem to weigh up the economic benefits of a vassal state status with the CCP versus a federated Australia.

COVID is round one with the CCP. Round two will likely be a weakened Australian economy and a deteriorating strategic outlook.

Get vaccinated and hide under your bed.

[Xeptu]

To the contrary:

I outlined early, Australia's COVID response being a civil defence failure and a template for coercion or defeat at the hands of the Chinese Communist Party. This all exacerbated by foolish State parochialism's who seem to weigh up the economic benefits of a vassal state status with the CCP versus a federated Australia.

COVID is round one with the CCP. Round two will likely be a weakened Australian economy and a deteriorating strategic outlook.

Then if I have made an unfair accusation then I apologise, the thread indeed the site is hijacked by call centre commies with the sole purpose to spread misinformation, divide and collapse our democracy. If that where to happen they will say, see democracy doesn't work, you need our peace keeping forces. not likely to happen I know but that's what they do.

Round two as you describe it would just mean back to how it was 20 years ago before china opened it's population to the world. Not ideal but not catastrophic either.

[43Inches]

Can we come back to reality now?

All I'm seeing is some real insight into some paranoid delusions that need to be addressed by a professional.

CCP conspiracies, next will be lizardmen and aliens are making the vaccines. It all feels like we have regressed to the 1950s.

[43Inches]

Only 753 cases today https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gif

Meanwhile China stomped on Delta and ate it for breakfast....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-23/china-crushed-covid-again-with-containment-on-steroids

[Paragraph377]

Meanwhile China stomped on Delta and ate it for breakfast....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-23/china-crushed-covid-again-with-containment-on-steroids

43, I’m not sure that I would be believing a) China, and b) Bloomturd. Two sources that have been synonymous with telling many many porkies.

[43Inches]

43, I’m not sure that I would be believing a) China, and b) Bloomturd. Two sources that have been synonymous with telling many many porkies.

While I agree with the sentiment, there's obviously some belief in some weird and wonderful things by what is contained in these posts, China and Bloomberg seem credible compared.

[WingNut60]

43, I’m not sure that I would be believing a) China, and b) Bloomturd. Two sources that have been synonymous with telling many many porkies.
If only they had the "Gold Standard" integrity of Rupert or Nine.

[Paragraph377]

Chief health officer Kerry Chant has warned NSW that masks may still be needed 'for years' to battle COVID-19. Woohoo. How exciting that will be! It’s a great day to be a NSW resident.

[KRviator]

Chief health officer Kerry Chant has warned NSW that masks may still be needed 'for years' to battle COVID-19. Woohoo. How exciting that will be! It’s a great day to be a NSW resident.She's at least being more realistic and sensible about it than McGoose, Anna Stay-Away or Dan...And from comments of various medico's overseas, she's probably right!

"Zero Covid! Queenslander's haven't given up on it! Look how great we're doing, you can go to school, the pub, etc..." - Anna Stay-Away's comments today... (https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/news/we-havent-given-up-queensland-premier-palaszczuks-swipe-at-nsws-handling-of-delta-outbreak/news-story/b7eaf8a3d28df439e86784445a178574)
"Zero Covid! I will not tolerate any Covid cases or deaths in WA on my watch!" - McGoose's comments a couple days ago. (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/nsw-in-full-lockdown-as-defence-help-grows-c-3684935)
"Zero Covid! My never-ending supply of lockdowns and arresting kiddies in the playground can make it happen!" Dan Andrews' comments today (https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/daniel-andrews-hits-out-at-sydney-over-covid-spread-amid-victorias-sixth-lockdown/news-story/51cee1bdfe98954808a192b3a3c054d2)

Then there's the reality of vaccination and actually living with the Delta strain, as demonstrated by several jurisdictions overseas - including the ones that Premier's like McGowan like to overlook because they've got vaccination rates above that to which he agreed he would open the border's, ease restrictions, move to more targeted lockdowns etc..

It is here to stay, it will get in, no matter how hard you try to keep it out, and case numbers will blow out, no matter what you do - unless you plan to lockdown your capital city for every individual case Mr McGowan??

[Gnadenburg]

Can we come back to reality now?

All I'm seeing is some real insight into some paranoid delusions that need to be addressed by a professional.

CCP conspiracies, next will be lizardmen and aliens are making the vaccines. It all feels like we have regressed to the 1950s.


To follow up a few minutes later with the below, makes the above the funniest or most Sino-ignorant post in some time. The CCP always stomps out COVID. Along with anyone suggesting otherwise.


Meanwhile China stomped on Delta and ate it for breakfast....

[layman]

Reported on the ABCs page "Tracking Australia's COVID vaccine rollout"

As of 24 August, 97.85% of ACT 70+ year olds have had their first vaccination.

If other Australians are as committed, Covid will become (almost) a non-issue

[Icarus2001]

Chief health officer Kerry Chant has warned NSW that masks may still be needed 'for years' to battle COVID-19. Woohoo. Are these the paper masks that the WHO says are not effective? No medical standard used in their production.
Pure theatre.

[JustinHeywood]

…[this] thread indeed the site is hijacked by call centre commies with the sole purpose to spread misinformation…

Not so crazy. Certain threads have posters whose main activity seems to be to defend the CCP or Russia, and attack the west.
Indeed Russia is believed to be have been recently busted actively spreading disinformation through social media- not the west is short of useful idiots already.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57928647.amp

[Lead Balloon]

Are these the paper masks that the WHO says are not effective? No medical standard used in their production.
Pure theatre.And I just marvel - actually despair - at the number of people I see with their nose hanging out of top!

Might as well wear it on an elbow.

[43Inches]

Not so crazy. Certain threads have posters whose main activity seems to be to defend the CCP or Russia, and attack the west.
Indeed Russia is believed to be have been recently busted actively spreading disinformation through social media- not the west is short of useful idiots already.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www....g-57928647.amp (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57928647.amp)

Not promoting or saying the CCP or Russian government are good guys. However the links are to a Russian businessman, not to Russia in general, yes that is a sort of smoking gun, but the same disinformation comes out of similar businessmen in Australia like Palmer and Co. Just because Palmer is a raging lunatic does not mean all of Australia is. A lot of whacko anti-vax ideas come out of the USA and other "western" places including Australia, and yes there are most likely some underhanded international efforts going on as well. Within Australia we have Neo-Nazi groups and such linked with other organised groups that revel in anarchy and will spread this info without any push from a foreign nation, do not underestimate how much reach and finance these groups can muster. Then you have religious and other groups, that can be just as devious as they know the direct message from "god" can seem like lunatics words so they hide behind false scientific information.

End game is, that's your irrational 10% who are non vaxers. You won't be able to change their narrative, just look out for it and be wary of it.

Do masks work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6cTDGqcUpA

The best example I've seen this whole pandemic.

[Xeptu]

End game is, that's your irrational 10% who are non vaxers. You won't be able to change their narrative, just look out for it and be wary of it.

It's about 17% and they are not necessarily anti vaxers, they are anti authority the "don't tell me what I can and cannot do brigade"

Gladys is in serious trouble now, the worst thing you can do is wave the freedom carrot at your population. Just within our own ranks those from NSW firmly believe freedom is imminent.
The Premiers must hold the line right up to the moment you change it, no hesitation. If she doesn't do it now there will be riots akin to those we saw in the US on the capital, right when her health system is about to be overwhelmed.

We're still not coming Gladys.

[SHVC]

Well QLD and WA have gone to a new low with their political jargon. QLD closing to NSW, ACT and Vic due hotel quarantine issues, guess they’re not fit to cope with covid and WA canceling and not accepting any NSW residents on compassionate grounds. What a mess Australia is, Americans thought Trump was bad look at Aussie politicians.

I really wish NSW would open up internationally and leave QLD and WA behind to keep their own bubble.

[Paragraph377]

Well QLD and WA have gone to a new low with their political jargon. QLD closing to NSW, ACT and Vic due hotel quarantine issues, guess they’re not fit to cope with covid and WA canceling and not accepting any NSW residents on compassionate grounds. What a mess Australia is, Americans thought Trump was bad look at Aussie politicians.

I really wish NSW would open up internationally and leave QLD and WA behind to keep their own bubble.

In the words of the chief obsfucator Scott Morrison; “it’s not my problem”. Now, where’s my Hillsong invitation and my healing hands…

[Chronic Snoozer]

Well QLD and WA have gone to a new low with their political jargon. QLD closing to NSW, ACT and Vic due hotel quarantine issues, guess they’re not fit to cope with covid and WA canceling and not accepting any NSW residents on compassionate grounds.
If it’s any consolation, McGowan’s extended family is from NSW. What’s good for the goose……

[turbantime]

Do masks work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6cTDGqcUpA

The best example I've seen this whole pandemic.
That is brilliant. Will be saving that for future use.

[layman]

WA, SA, Qld, & Tas all seem to have the same border restrictions.

[Ladloy]

WA, SA, Qld, & Tas all seem to have the same border restrictions.
shhhh that goes against their political bias.


(Mods will delete this like all my other political posts)

[dr dre]

WA, SA, Qld, & Tas all seem to have the same border restrictions.

It is funny how we hear non stop about Dictator Dan! PalaChook! McClown! But never about Steven Marshall or Peter Gutwein given they’ve basically done the same things as the other 3 this entire time.....

[SHVC]

Yes you’re correct Dre, however McGoose and Palachook are very content and happy that their borders are closed and even more content at not even working with a national plan that was agreed to for a uniformed approach out of this mess. Australia seems to be on the only major country that you can’t travel over your own fricken border domestically.

[WingNut60]

Yes you’re correct Dre, however McGoose and Palachook are very content and happy that their borders are closed and even more content at not even working with a national plan that was agreed to for a uniformed approach out of this mess. Australia seems to be on the only major country that you can’t travel over your own fricken border domestically.
In what way has McGowan "not worked with the national plan"?
If he has contravened any agreement that he made then all West Australians should be made aware of it.

[SOPS]

In what way has McGowan "not worked with the national plan"?
If he has contravened any agreement that he made then all West Australians should be made aware of it.

Thats what I keep wondering? Is the plan to get 1000s of cases a day, ICUs overrun, people dying,… and tell the rest of Australia this is normal, let’s all open up and have fun?

[Xeptu]

Yes you’re correct Dre, however McGoose and Palachook are very content and happy that their borders are closed and even more content at not even working with a national plan that was agreed to for a uniformed approach out of this mess. Australia seems to be on the only major country that you can’t travel over your own fricken border domestically.

That would be quite sensational if it were true. WA is the largest state, less than half vaccinated, don't have full supply anyway, some diverted to NSW because they need it right now.
If you are infected it'll be 3 months before you can be vaccinated, 15% of those will have longcovid that will have those issues that preclude vaccination, they will be vulnerable to the disease most likely for the rest of there lives. We can't provide a date to open when we can't guarantee that. It's gut wrenching, soul destroying stuff when it doesn't happen.

Are you still keen to open up.

[SHVC]

McGowen has already said they agreed to the national plan, now he wants that revised because NSW outbreak was not occurring at the time it was agreed. He wants zero covid before following through with the 80% and even then he will lockdown at the sniff of covid.


I ask you WA people this. If we were in the same position we were in back in June, with 80% vax rate would you agree to opening up domestic and international borders also? Or are the UK or China cases etc to high?! you have all been lobotomized to think covid zero is the only way. Yes if you lockdown stay in the cave then yeah good on you having zero. I want to open up 80% as per the plan no if’s, no buts that’s it time to move on. I want to live my life they way it should be, not live in the cave like others want to be.

[Xeptu]

Firstly I already stated, don't worry too much about what McGowan says in the media "nationally" he must stay the path, the alternative is look like gladys and that's only going to get worse in the coming weeks.

The Answer, YES of course we are going to open up, when our population is vaccinated, post covid measures are in place and our Health System is ready.
AND NOT BEFORE, no matter what you the other states or the PM has to say.

[SHVC]

I agree here we will see 2000 by early September that’s why NSW is going warp speed with the vaccinations. 18 months on and WA is still not ready? I’d guess you will never be ready. I’m not worried what McGowen is saying in the media that’s a WA problem, what I worry about is the WA person who listens to his rhetoric rubbish and read the endless misinformation on Facebook etc thinking that zero is the go. To make it clear I’m not trying to be a savage here I don’t want it ripping through like the next person, 80% then it’s go time no excuses.

[Xeptu]

I agree here we will see 2000 by early September that’s why NSW is going warp speed with the vaccinations. 18 months on and WA is still not ready? I’d guess you will never be ready. I’m not worried what McGowen is saying in the media that’s a WA problem, what I worry about is the WA person who listens to his rhetoric rubbish and read the endless misinformation on Facebook etc thinking that zero is the go. To make it clear I’m not trying to be a savage here I don’t want it ripping through like the next person, 80% then it’s go time no excuses.

That's because NSW wants our vaccines and no doubt our help when it all goes pear shaped in a couple of weeks.
Sounds like those outside WA are reading rubbish.
Go Time is yet to be determined., there will be no excuses because we won't announce it until we are doing it.

[WingNut60]

I agree here we will see 2000 by early September that’s why NSW is going warp speed with the vaccinations. 18 months on and WA is still not ready? I’d guess you will never be ready. I’m not worried what McGowen is saying in the media that’s a WA problem, what I worry about is the WA person who listens to his rhetoric rubbish and read the endless misinformation on Facebook etc thinking that zero is the go. To make it clear I’m not trying to be a savage here I don’t want it ripping through like the next person, 80% then it’s go time no excuses.
So he hasn't actually done anything that contravenes the agreement, right?
But he has indicated that, in the face of rampant non-compliance in NSW, he thinks that the terms of the agreement are too loose.
How dare he!

[ExtraShot]

So he hasn't actually done anything that contravenes the agreement, right?
But he has indicated that, in the face of rampant non-compliance in NSW, he thinks that the terms of the agreement are too loose.
How dare he!


McGowan stated he wants to continue to aim for ‘zero Covid, zero deaths’ even after 80% is reached, can you show us where that is in the National Agreement?

[neville_nobody]

Closed Borders are starting to build pressure in WA. There are plenty of sectors which are starting to complain. If miners start winging then you know there is a problem as they can afford to pay more than any other sector.

Monadelphous is paying up to 10 per cent more to hire and keep workers due to Western Australia’s stringent border closures, managing director Rob Velletri said after the engineering group reported a 29 per cent jump in annual net profit to $47.1 million.

About 40 to 50 per cent of its construction workforce in the Pilbara typically comes from states other than WA, and the group has used between 2000 and 3000 fly in, fly out workers at a time over the past 12 months.

‘‘The state restrictions mean there is very little mobility of labour across the country which fly in, fly out operations just rely on,’’ Mr Velletri said. He said the biggest problem was that WA’s border closures were ‘‘so unpredictable’’ and that potential FIFO workers were worried about getting stuck in the state.

Turnover of employees at Perth-based Monadelphous has doubled in the past 12 months and wages paid had risen by 5 to 10 per cent, he said.

The shortages of quality workers for trades such as electricians and mechanical fitters had also increased recruitment costs, hurt productivity and made it difficult to complete existing projects on time, he said.

The company, which is trying to win back ‘‘departed talent’’ amid what it claims are unprecedented skills shortages and will hire 200 or so workers over the next few months, employed 7791 people in the 12 months to June, up 37 per cent on a year earlier.

It has committed to having Indigenous people make up at least 3 per cent of its workforce and is devising a new gender diversity plan.

The higher costs have made it harder for Monadelphous to make money out of fixed price contracts, which make up most of its construction jobs, signed before the COVID-19 pandemic hit.

Its profit margins for the full year were 5.6 per cent, flat on a year earlier. However, margins in the second half of the 2021 financial year slid to 5.1 per cent from 6 per cent in the first half, well down on the 6.6 per cent for 2019.

Mr Velletri said most of the decline in second-half margins was due to the higher staff turnover and labour costs.

Net profits were boosted by new resources, energy and infrastructure contracts, including work in the booming iron ore sector, but they were lower than analysts expected and its shares slid 14 per cent, or $1.70, to $10.09.

Revenues in Monadelphous’s engineering construction division rose 59 per cent to $979 million as it secured $480 million of new contracts, of which nearly half were in the iron ore sector and 27 per cent in the copper sector.

Maintenance and industrial services revenues dropped 7 per cent to $977 due to lower demand for its services from the oil and gas sector. Oil and gas spending had not returned to pre-COVID-19 levels, Mr Velletri said.

Revenues for the financial year ending in June 2022 were likely to be lower than the previous year due to the timing of new projects, Monadelphous said. But it forecast construction activity would rebound in FY 2023.

Monadelphous will pay a final dividend of 21¢ compared with a 13¢ dividend a year earlier, bringing its total dividend for the year to 45¢ compared with 35¢ a year earlier.

It received $7 million of JobKeeper subsidies in the first half of the financial year.

[layman]

SHVC

"...80% then it’s go time no excuses."

I might be misinterpreting the intent of your statement, but this does not appear to be what the Doherty Institute modelling is suggesting. My bolding in the following two paragraphs taken from their web site:

https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/statement-on-the-doherty-institute-modelling

"In an average year of influenza, we would roughly have 600 deaths and 200,000 cases in Australia. Any death is a tragedy, but our health system can cope with this. In the COVID-19 modelling, opening up at 70% vaccine coverage of the adult population with partial public health measures, we predict 385,983 symptomatic cases and 1,457 deaths over six months. With optimal public health measures (and no lockdowns), this can be significantly reduced to 2,737 infections and 13 deaths.

We’ve learned from watching countries that have removed all restrictions that there is no ‘freedom day’. We will need to keep some public health measures in place – test, trace, isolate and quarantine – to keep the reproduction number below 1, but as vaccination rates increase, we’ll be able to ease up further and it is unlikely that we will need generalised lockdowns."

My interpretation is that only once we've reached 70% of the over 16 year olds having received two doses of the vaccine, and a further two weeks for the vaccine to become fully effective, then easing of restrictions will commence - but an immediate cessation of all restrictions will not occur. It may even be that partial lockdowns will still be required for some time yet.

At least one jurisdiction is suggesting the 70% should include all those over 12 years of age.

Not directly related to Covid, but to hospital capacity overall, apparently Tasmania already has endemic "ramping" occurring even with no Covid cases. ("ramping" - where ambulances spend considerable time queueing before being able to discharge patients into the care of the hospital). This was cited as one of the reasons Tasmania has severe border restrictions in place.

[Cafe City]

I would hardly describe it as ‘warp speed’. Not even quite 1/3 of NSW fully vaccinated??!
I have serious misgivings how this pathetic jab rate will suffice if it turns out we all need to have a booster every year like the flu.
If that’s the case, I can see me being due my 2022 shot before everybody has had their 2 shots.
Seems nobody in Govt is able to do simple maths.

[dr dre]

I think some actually need to read the National Roadmap.

We are currently all in Phase A:

This is what is happening now in phase A, which everyone seems to be doing:

 Accelerate vaccination rates;
 Close international borders to keep COVID-19 out;
 Early, stringent and short lockdowns if outbreaks
occur;
 Minimise cases in the community through effective
test, trace and isolate capabilities;
 Implement the national vaccination plan to offer every
Australian an opportunity to be vaccinated with the necessary doses of the relevant vaccine as soon as possible;
 Inbound passenger caps temporarily reduced
 Domestic travel restrictions directly proportionate to
lockdown requirements;
 Commonwealth to facilitate increased commercial flights to increase international repatriations to Darwin for quarantine at the Centre for National Resilience in Howard Springs;
 International Freight Assistance Mechanism extended;
 Trial and pilot the introduction of alternative quarantine options, including home quarantine for returning vaccinated travellers;
 Expand commercial trials for limited entry of student and economic visa holders;
 Recognise and adopt the existing digital Medicare Vaccination Certificate (automatically generated for every vaccination registered on AIR);
 Establish digital vaccination authentication at international borders;
 Prepare vaccine booster programme; and
 Undertake a further review of the national hotel quarantine network.

When we get to 80% (Phase C), it won’t be freedom day or go time or treat it like the flu, there’ll still be some containment measures:

 Minimum ongoing baseline restrictions,
adjusted to minimise cases without lockdowns;
 Highly targeted lockdowns only;
 Continue vaccine booster programme;
 Exempt vaccinated residents from all domestic restrictions;
 Abolish caps on returning vaccinated Australians;
 Allow increased capped entry of student, economic, and humanitarian visa holders;
 Lift all restrictions on outbound travel for vaccinated Australians; and
 Extend travel bubble for unrestricted travel to new candidate countries (Singapore, Pacific);
 Gradual reopening of inward and outward international travel, with safe countries and proportionate quarantine and reduced requirements for fully vaccinated inbound travellers.

Even in the end stage (Phase D, treat it like the flu stage) there’s still some restrictions like quarantine from high risk countries and on arrival testing and vaccine requirements.

Its going to be a gradual transition, not a “freedom day”.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I think some actually need to read the National Roadmap.

What a buzz kill. What's the point of a rumour network if there's pre-reading involved?

[WingNut60]

McGowan stated he wants to continue to aim for ‘zero Covid, zero deaths’ even after 80% is reached, can you show us where that is in the National Agreement?
But what was claimed above was that he doesn't follow the terms of the current agreements.

My question remains "what has he done that contravenes current agreements"?

[ExtraShot]

But what was claimed above was that he doesn't follow the terms of the current agreements.

My question remains "what has he done that contravenes current agreements"?


Pedantic, but you mean - The current step in the agreement - Fair enough, I didn't read that many posts back. . Though one could argue you don't 'Accelerate National Vaccination Rates' by saying you'll be staying shut at the agreed vaccination targets anyway, or by telling your citizens life here is normal (mine certainly isn't, and I'm not the only one by a long shot), if I'm going to draw a longish bow and again be pedantic!

However, He has telegraphed that he has every intention not to follow the later steps as he sees fit. The steps, and yes I have read them, are actually very conservative and very well thought out. No, there is no 'Freedom Day', but there is also no "zero Cases, Zero deaths', anywhere. There is a reason it's not there. It just won't be possible to maintain. There is also a reason that he'll try it on, the public hospitals here are a complete and utter disaster zone and it will take them YEARS to fix the mess. And it absolutely won't be fixed with the current Health Minister in place, who I wouldn't trust to tie a shoelace.

[Xeptu]

I'm amazed at how some of you guys interpret the written word, If it makes any difference about percentages, we in WA already have about 70% registered for their jab and no hope in hell of getting all of us that wants it, jabbed with two doses this year. We will continue to maintain zero covid until they are, then the health system has to be ready for rising cases, before any discussion will be entered into regarding open borders date. I can't make it any clearer than that.

[Lead Balloon]

What a buzz kill. What's the point of a rumour network if there's pre-reading involved?
A long and very enjoyable belly laugh for me, CS.

Thanks!

But back to matters serious, how can these be reconciled: Close international borders to keep COVID-19 out
...
 Inbound passenger caps temporarily reduced
...
 Commonwealth to facilitate increased commercial flights to increase international repatriations to Darwin for quarantine at the Centre for National Resilience in Howard SpringsIt's the border closure you have when you don't want to close your borders.

[KRviator]

I'm amazed at how some of you guys interpret the written word, If it makes any difference about percentages, we in WA already have about 70% registered for their jab and no hope in hell of getting all of us that wants it, jabbed with two doses this year. We will continue to maintain zero covid until they are, then the health system has to be ready for rising cases, before any discussion will be entered into regarding open borders date. I can't make it any clearer than that.And there is the problem right there. You seem to think you can't handle it. Maybe you're right. Then again - your CHO - Andy Robertson, testified in Clive's original s.92 case that the WA health system is capable of handling 5,000 active Covid cases, with, IIRC, 500 in ICU at any one time - and that was a year ago! So what's changed that you now cannot handle it?

If the WA health system can't handle a few thousand cases, with maybe 5% of those in hospital, you've got bigger problems than Covid...Though, if reports of WA hospitals having to ramp ambulances for many hours at a time are indeed accurate, then maybe you do!

Sounds like those outside WA are reading rubbish.We're not the one's reading PerthNow where McGowan proudly proclaimed:
The Premier said that despite National Cabinet agreeing that Australia would open up when an 80 per cent vaccination rate was achieved, he would retain a zero COVID policy and not tolerate any cases or deaths in WA. Source (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/nsw-in-full-lockdown-as-defence-help-grows-c-3684935)Now, maybe I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but...the only way I can see this occurring - The only way - is if he continues on his current crusade of border restrictions a'la John Howard and his boat people "We vill dezide who comes into our state and ze manner in vich zey come!"

Last I checked, Zero Covid was not mentioned anywhere in the Doherty modelling or the 4-stage roadmap - and present evidence of multiple overseas jurisdictions demonstrates it is an unattainable goal, no matter your Countries' vaccination level! That being the case, for how long are Australian Citizens expected to be denied their constitutional right to travel to WA without being penalised because of the state in which they live?

[Keg]

But what was claimed above was that he doesn't follow the terms of the current agreements.

My question remains "what has he done that contravenes current agreements"?

Stated specifically that even at 80% he may keep the hard border up to NSW!

[aussieflyboy]

The muppet can keep the ‘hard border’ up for as long as wants. Once everyone else opens up to each other and Covid is everywhere there will be no stopping it from entering WA. There are 100s of truck drivers crossing the border everyday and numerous Facebook pages with hints and tips on how to get into WA undetected (plenty of bush tracks).

[SOPS]

The muppet can keep the ‘hard border’ up for as long as wants. Once everyone else opens up to each other and Covid is everywhere there will be no stopping it from entering WA. There are 100s of truck drivers crossing the border everyday and numerous Facebook pages with hints and tips on how to get into WA undetected (plenty of bush tracks).

Lets hope WA police are checking those face book pages.

[43Inches]

That being the case, for how long are Australian Citizens expected to be denied their constitutional right to travel to WA without being penalised because of the state in which they live?

As long as the WA government can prove there is a threat to public health restriction of movement is perfectly legal. If you can prove otherwise you can force them to allow freedom of movement. International law on human rights and our constitution allows restriction of movement for public health, public order or to protect others rights. No point quoting constitutional rights if they don't apply in current circumstance. It does not even have to be a public health emergency, that just makes the case stronger for the rules.

That's why the protesters are double morons, if they create civil disorder they give the state further power to restrict movement.

[Xeptu]

We know it will come into the state, we know we will have to live with it, we must maintain zero until the state is ready, it won't be this year. The Premier is entitled to stick it up the liberals any way he likes, it won't change the plan.

[Xeptu]

As long as the WA government can prove there is a threat to public health restriction of movement is perfectly legal. If you can prove otherwise you can force them to allow freedom of movement. International law on human rights and our constitution allows restriction of movement for public health, public order or to protect others rights. No point quoting constitutional rights if they don't apply in current circumstance. It does not even have to be a public health emergency, that just makes the case stronger for the rules.

A state of emergency must be declared, it's not forever and we don't want it to be forever, nor will it be.

[43Inches]

A state of emergency must be declared, it's not forever and we don't want it to be forever, nor will it be.

The states rules require that, not the general human rights we are signed up to.

[goodonyamate]

We know it will come into the state, we know we will have to live with it, we must maintain zero until the state is ready, it won't be this year. The Premier is entitled to stick it up the liberals any way he likes, it won't change the plan.

and there’s the problem. The fool is so focussed on political posturing. If federal labor were in, there’s no way he’d be such a recalcitrant prick. Each way albo even says he supports the reopening plan. Mcgoose will just change the ‘best health advice’ to suit his political agenda.

you don’t need to be clear. You will have as much say in what happens with the borders as I do.

[dr dre]

The Premier said that despite National Cabinet agreeing that Australia would open up when an 80 per cent vaccination rate was achieved, he would retain a zero COVID policy and not tolerate any cases or deaths in WA. Source (https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/coronavirus/nsw-in-full-lockdown-as-defence-help-grows-c-3684935)

Here’s an example of where the media twists a quote to get a headline where the real quote wasn’t exactly what was said (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/wa-premier-defends-stance-to-keep-borders-and-lockdowns-after-reaching-80-per-cent-jab-rates-20210816-p58j4n.html):

“If you imagine we get to 80 per cent vaccination, and Aboriginal communities, remote communities, some country towns are at much lower levels, we may have to lock those down at some point in time for whatever reason – I think that makes total sense and that was what was agreed,” Mr McGowan said.

“I’m just keen to have minimal or no COVID”

So a lot of nuance and media putting their own spin on quotes - not a “zero Covid policy and No cases or deaths”, just “keen to have minimal or no Covid”.

Not full lockdowns at 80%, targeted lockdowns for specific areas like indigenous communities.

And nowhere had the cabinet agreed to a plan where Australia “opens up” at 80%, we move to Phase C at 80% which still involves some restrictions, Phase D is more open but still there’s some countermeasures.

Everything isn’t going back to normal the day we hit 80%, it’ll be better but it’ll also be gradual and phased.

[MickG0105]

... International law on human rights and our constitution allows restriction of movement for public health, public order or to protect others rights. ...
The Australian Constitution is largely silent on the matter of restrictions of movement, save for s 92.

[Xeptu]

Here’s an example of where the media twists a quote to get a headline where the real quote wasn’t exactly what was said (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/wa-premier-defends-stance-to-keep-borders-and-lockdowns-after-reaching-80-per-cent-jab-rates-20210816-p58j4n.html):

“If you imagine we get to 80 per cent vaccination, and Aboriginal communities, remote communities, some country towns are at much lower levels, we may have to lock those down at some point in time for whatever reason – I think that makes total sense and that was what was agreed,” Mr McGowan said.

“I’m just keen to have minimal or no COVID”

So a lot of nuance and media putting their own spin on quotes - not a “zero Covid policy and No cases or deaths”, just “keen to have minimal or no Covid”.

Not full lockdowns at 80%, targeted lockdowns for specific areas like indigenous communities.

And nowhere had the cabinet agreed to a plan where Australia “opens up” at 80%, we move to Phase C at 80% which still involves some restrictions, Phase D is more open but still there’s some countermeasures.

Everything isn’t going back to normal the day we hit 80%, it’ll be better but it’ll also be gradual and phased.

Yep, all correct as far as I can see, why is it people turn it into something it isn't, Is it desperation driven.

[WingNut60]

Stated specifically that even at 80% he may keep the hard border up to NSW!
Correct - as the agreement allows.

[WingNut60]

Yep, all correct as far as I can see, why is it people turn it into something it isn't, Is it desperation driven.
I am amazed that, while NSW festers, so many people are desperate to point out failings that they think they can see in WA and McGowan.

[ExtraShot]

McGowan is also quoted saying:

"Our preferred option is zero COVID obviously and that's what we'll attempt to do,"

Mr McGowan on Sunday said WA's "preferred option is zero COVID-19" and he would not tolerate any cases or deaths in his state.

"We don't want to have deaths and we don't want to have spread of the virus, but there can be some easing of some of the rules," he told Sky News Australia.



What other conclusion are people supposed to make from that?

[KRviator]

The Australian Constitution is largely silent on the matter of restrictions of movement, save for s 92.Though it does protect you from being penalised based solely on the state in which you live, which would be applicable if it were demonstrable that there is no health basis to the blanket decision. Ie someone in Broken Hill who could fly to Perth via Adelaide is no risk to WA compared to someone at Bondi who has to travel through Sydney. Granted, they now have cases out there, but for argument's sake, if there is no demonstrable risk, then you should not be penalised for it - and that's where WA needs to be careful, I think, as you cannot keep locking out everyone in a state for a handful of cases...

“I’m just keen to have minimal or no COVID”Okay, we'll us your words if it'll make you happy...But, do tell the rest of us, just how McGowan plans on actually getting "minimal or no" Covid in WA?

Isn't "No Covid" (Your words...) the same as "Zero Covid"? Mark McGowan says his “preferred position is that we don’t have COVID” He said the lockdown of NSW showed it’s “better not to have COVID” and he would only abandon borders and lockdowns as virus suppression weapons when Australia reaches the last phase of National Cabinet’s four-step plan out of the pandemic.
"Obviously, if we get cases in here certainly we will have to deal with it but we're doing everything we can to keep it out."

“(Zero COVID) is now the accepted position,. People will criticise, I just want to say, ‘Look at our life, look at all this’. People out having lunch, having fun, people at work, the office blocks have got the highest staffing levels back of anywhere in Australia, our schools are operating, our economy is going the strongest in Australia of anywhere in the world — isn’t a good thing?Source (https://thewest.com.au/news/coronavirus/mark-mcgowan-holds-tough-zero-covid-stance-even-when-wa-reaches-80-per-cent-vaccination-coverage-ng-b881969246z)I am amazed that, while NSW festers, so many people are desperate to point out failings that they think they can see in WA and McGowan.Maybe because Australian's don't like being taken advantage of by smug pricks who won't pull their own weight? It's all fine and dandy for McGowan to have a crack at Gladys and say "You should've locked down earlier!", but perhaps McGowan should've been pulling his weight with incoming passengers and particularly airfreight per capita? Same for Dan, when they screwed the pooch last year, they cancelled all incoming arrivals through Melbourne. Last I looked, Sydney is still taking the vast majority of incoming passengers, with the risk that entails...

He conveniently forgets to mention that NSW handles the majority of both, yet seems content for everyone to reap the benefits of it...

[Xeptu]

I think people are just frustrated with the whole Covid issue and want it to be over. I think everyone will pull their heads in as NSW deteriorates and has the entire nations undivided attention.

[ExtraShot]

Correct - as the agreement allows.


Actually at Phase C, post 80% vaccination it says:"Exempt vaccinated residents from all domestic restrictions..." - happy to be corrected but I assumed this meant domestic travel restrictions.

[dr dre]

Okay, we'll us your words if it'll make you happy...But, do tell the rest of us, just how McGowan plans on actually getting "minimal or no" Covid in WA?

Isn't "No Covid" (Your words...) the same as "Zero Covid"?

Minimal or no Covid - it’s up to interpretation how much you think is “minimal”, but we’re a long way off where the answer will be known.

Reading far too much into it it could even be a comment about the “Disease” of Covid-19, rather than case numbers of the virus. And having “minimal” Covid may mean minimising the amount of disease affecting the health system. But I think that’s reading too much into it and honestly at this stage we’re reading too much into any comments about what’s going to happen post Phase A.

"Obviously, if we get cases in here certainly we will have to deal with it but we're doing everything we can to keep it out."

“(Zero COVID) is now the accepted position,


Seems to be referring to “now”, as in the present day, Phase A. What happens when Phase B/C is reached is a matter for that time, for the moment just need to keep the vaccinated numbers increasing.

There’s some info out there saying that going from Phase C to D would only be a matter of weeks.

[Ladloy]

and there’s the problem. The fool is so focussed on political posturing. If federal labor were in, there’s no way he’d be such a recalcitrant prick. Each way albo even says he supports the reopening plan. Mcgoose will just change the ‘best health advice’ to suit his political agenda.

you don’t need to be clear. You will have as much say in what happens with the borders as I do.
I'm going to take a stab and say the NSW outbreak was the result of political posturing

[machtuk]

Well QLD and WA have gone to a new low with their political jargon. QLD closing to NSW, ACT and Vic due hotel quarantine issues, guess they’re not fit to cope with covid and WA canceling and not accepting any NSW residents on compassionate grounds. What a mess Australia is, Americans thought Trump was bad look at Aussie politicians.

I really wish NSW would open up internationally and leave QLD and WA behind to keep their own bubble.


too true, we must look like a bunch of incompetent fools to the rest of the world having one snake with several heads that all need chopping off!

[PoppaJo]

The next emergency appears to the be NSW hospital system. Seems to be on borrowed time sadly. Might be the big story of Q4.

[Keg]

Must be a very localised thing. A major Sydney hospital close to me had zero Covid patients as at yesterday arvo.

[rattman]

Must be a very localised thing. A major Sydney hospital close to me had zero Covid patients as at yesterday arvo.

Westmead hospital has a covid outbreak there. Outpatient clincs have been moved Quodos(spelling) stadium, emergency cases are being redirected to concord.

The figures I saw a few days ago which are all online at nsw health. They have about 800 ICU bed over the whole state. about 100 are being used for covid and 300 are being used non covid. Apparently its ambulances being hit more atm, the ambulances are having to park up wait for a hours to get the patients into the hospital

At Concord Hospital last night, ambulances redirected from overflowing Westmead queued for hours. With no infrastructure to support COVID delays, Paramedics were given a choice–wait in the confined car space with a confirmed COVID-19 patient, or wait outside in the freezing rain

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/sydney-hospitals-turn-away-covid-patients-as-health-system-under-strain/news-story/0a24a8935772dfc798b0c91d1a24cc90

[turbantime]

First hand info; overnight Westmead, Napean, Concord and Blacktown were all turning away ambulances. 75% of Concord’s Covid patients arrived in the last 24 hours, all unvaccinated I might add. The dam is bursting. Get vaccinated to protect yourself and the entire health system is the message.
At this rate it won’t be long before we start hearing stories of people dying of other ailments because of not being able to be treated due to hospitals full of Covid patients.

[WingNut60]

too true, we must look like a bunch of incompetent fools to the rest of the world having one snake with several heads that all need chopping off!
If you think this is unique to Australia then you need to get out more.

If you need examples then please take a look at the individual states of the so-called USA or the provincial premiers of Canada.
Or Boris and Nicola, or ..............................

[SOPS]

First hand info; overnight Westmead, Napean, Concord and Blacktown were all turning away ambulances. 75% of Concord’s Covid patients arrived in the last 24 hours, all unvaccinated I might add. The dam is bursting. Get vaccinated to protect yourself and the entire health system is the message.
At this rate it won’t be long before we start hearing stories of people dying of other ailments because of not being able to be treated due to hospitals full of Covid patients.

Gold Standard….

[Foxxster]

Queensland is going ahead and building a dedicated quarantine centre. I guess they are paying for it themselves as the feds have already said no to it.

oh, and the main reason Queensland is being so tough re border closures and are desperate to keep WuHu flu out is because their health system has been so badly managed and run down that if they had an outbreak like we have in nsw, their hospitals would already be overwhelmed. And not just some, the whole system. But don’t let the truth out. Shhhhh.

[601]

too true, we must look like a bunch of incompetent fools to the rest of the world having one snake with several heads that all need chopping off!

At least we only have 7 as against the 52 in the un-United States.

[galdian]

Gold Standard….

OK get it, some people will always hate regardless, last year NSW was largely open and free whilst VIC was largely closed, I would have thought a good effort - apparently not for some.
You want to hate/dislike GB, I'll dislike intensely DA for his obvious contempt for the Westminster system and embedded Ministerial responsibility (under which Australia/Victoria operates and from which he receives his considerable stipend), anyone who thinks "creeping assumption" is an acceptable recognition or understanding of Ministerial responsibility should do the majority in Australia a favour and piss off to China where you can discuss controlling the peasants with Xi Jinping to your hearts content.
Please don't return - and please take Chairman Dan with you.:ok:

The Delta variant is obviously CV19 on steroids - yes GB stuffed up BUT if not her someone else would have, the Delta strain cannot be eliminated unless hermit states with absolutely zero travel are created....until that one infected person wanders over the border into the hermit state, coughs on someone and Delta takes hold. Whether the hermit state natives would accept becoming a hermit state - or for how long - be interesting to observe.

If anything rather than dissing GB she should maybe be applauded - by stuffing up so badly she's forced the masses to decide whether ongoing, eternal lockdowns or vaccinations are the way to go. Gave the vaccine numbers/awarness the kick along it needed.
Who knows - maybe a well deserved acknowledgement in the Christmas honours for services to Australia.:eek: :D

Once all those who wish a vaccine are covered things will change, QF will have all staff vaccinated - and VA will have to follow or lose some market, ScoMo will win the election and use sticks/carrots to push forward the "re-opening" of Australia.
The majority of Australians will increasingly question the need for lockdowns once everyone vaccinated, how individual states Premiers deal with the peasant's expectation of "living with covid" will be interesting to observe.

Pleased to have straightened things out for the benefit of all Ppruners. No thanks required! ;)

[KRviator]

Gold Standard….I wouldn't get too cocky...It appears that it took a global pandemic to achieve that in NSW. WA has achieved that without Covid! Could explain why McGowan is so $hit-scared of it getting into WA....

09 Feb 2021 - Why ambulance ramping crisis is compromising patient safety (https://www.6pr.com.au/why-was-ambulance-ramping-crisis-is-compromising-patient-safety/)
07 Mar 2021 - WA Election: AMA says WA's health system is heading towards crisis point (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-07/wa-health-election-ambulance-ramping/13222088)
07 May 2021 - Another day of chaos at Perth hospitals as pressure in ED ramps up (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/another-day-of-chaos-at-perth-hospitals-as-pressure-in-ed-ramps-up-20210507-p57pxe.html)
05 July 2021 - Ambulance ramping leaves RFDS patients stuck in shed for hours (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/ambulance-ramping-leaves-rfds-patients-stuck-in-shed-for-hours-20210628-p58523.html)
02 Aug 2021 - Ambulance ramping hits another high as unions slam government over hospital safety (https://thewest.com.au/politics/state-politics/ambulance-ramping-hits-another-high-as-unions-slam-government-over-hospital-safety-ng-b881953961z)
05 Aug 2021 - Patient care threatened by ambulance ramping rise at Perth hospitals, paramedics claim (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-05/claims-of-rise-in-ambulance-ramping-at-perth-hospitals/12527424)

Hell, even the WA Health department's own data show around only 75% of all Emergency "Triage 2" cases are seen within the recommended time of 10 minutes over the last year.bAnd that figure has been trending lower over the last several years, too, according to the Federal Government's AIHW dataset....

[Xeptu]

At least we only have 7 as against the 52 in the un-United States.

And 4 in the UK

[dr dre]

Every state has a problem with hospitals and ambulance ramping, every single one:

Brisbane hospital at 191 per cent capacity, wait times top several hours (https://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-ambulance-ramping-reveals-hours-of-delays-resulting-in-queensland-deaths/4bbe6764-c478-4468-9eaa-9c2390a8b5ec)

Statistics reveal thousands of hours lost to ramping outside SA hospitals (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-07/sa-ramping-statistics/100125640)

Ambulance ramping at Royal Hobart Hospital hits nearly 10,000 hours in nine months (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-17/ambulance-ramping-hits-10000-hours-at-hobart-hospital/11215264)

NSW hospitals running a 'crisis medical service', parliamentary inquiry into regional health care hears (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-03/nsw-regional-health-inquiry-hears-of-crisis-medical-service/13115936)

Five-hour ambulance delays outside hospitals a ‘public health disaster’ (Victoria) (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/five-hour-ambulance-delays-outside-hospitals-a-public-health-disaster-20210421-p57l5k.html)

WA ambulance ramping at 'troubling' levels (https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/6865620/wa-ambulance-ramping-at-troubling-levels/)

Worsening situation at Royal Darwin Hospital (https://acem.org.au/News/December-2019/Worsening-situation-at-Royal-Darwin-Hospital)

[Lead Balloon]

And that's because Australia has, for decades, relied on immigration to staff hospitals. A very (very) senior public servant then in the Commonwealth Department of Health and Ageing told me, a decade and a half ago, that without immigration Australia would not have a public hospital system.

The lazy way works until the source is closed off.

There was a news story yesterday that said Victoria is bringing in 350 medical staff from overseas (through our 'closed' borders of course) to help remove pressure from its hospital system.

[43Inches]

Ambulance ramping and hospital bypass are common during peak periods in cities pre-covid. You can't just have a system that has capacity for extreme events and peaks on Fridays and weekends due to drunk idiots and thrill seekers, it would cost a fortune to maintain that over 365 days a year. Instead they share the load across a city with the triage system. Now covid presents extra problems in that processing inbound patients takes longer, due to having to quarantine them and make sure hospital staff and other patients are protected, therefore if a number of patients turn up at once, they will hold them on ramp while they process them in. This has knock on effects of taking ambulances off the road and tying up the ambulance system. Again proof that Covid imposes a lot of stress on the health system in all areas, even relatively small numbers.

One health official said earlier in the week, "if you ask the health minister if we have extra capacity the answer will always be yes". Why, because there is always capacity, it just might be eaten away if a sudden influx occurs in a short period of time and not enough staff are positioned for the event.

[KRviator]

Every state has a problem with hospitals and ambulance ramping, every single one:

Brisbane hospital at 191 per cent capacity, wait times top several hours (https://www.9news.com.au/national/queensland-ambulance-ramping-reveals-hours-of-delays-resulting-in-queensland-deaths/4bbe6764-c478-4468-9eaa-9c2390a8b5ec)

Statistics reveal thousands of hours lost to ramping outside SA hospitals (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-07/sa-ramping-statistics/100125640)

Ambulance ramping at Royal Hobart Hospital hits nearly 10,000 hours in nine months (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-17/ambulance-ramping-hits-10000-hours-at-hobart-hospital/11215264)

NSW hospitals running a 'crisis medical service', parliamentary inquiry into regional health care hears (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-03/nsw-regional-health-inquiry-hears-of-crisis-medical-service/13115936)

Five-hour ambulance delays outside hospitals a ‘public health disaster’ (Victoria) (https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/five-hour-ambulance-delays-outside-hospitals-a-public-health-disaster-20210421-p57l5k.html)

WA ambulance ramping at 'troubling' levels (https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/6865620/wa-ambulance-ramping-at-troubling-levels/)

Worsening situation at Royal Darwin Hospital (https://acem.org.au/News/December-2019/Worsening-situation-at-Royal-Darwin-Hospital)The least you could do, if you're trying to prove a point about ambulance ramping, is actually link to articles that discuss it. Or at least, compare apples with another fruit, not a vegetable...:ugh: Maybe, by using the comparisons provided by the AIHW or other federal government analytical datasets...

For example, not once in the ABC NSW article you linked to, does the word "ramp" appear...It's also a bid disingenious to try to prove your point about ramping by linking to an article that discusses issues at Griffth hospital, which serves a catchment of around 35,000 in the local area or Wee Waa- that doesn't even have a hospital and instead relies on a GP as does the vast majority of other small, regional areas, and trying to compare them to major metropolitan Perth or other metropolitan hospitals that have a catchment of several hundred thousand to nearing the million mark...

And in other news...We're over the 1,000 mark today, with 1,029 new cases... :*

[ruprecht]

And that's because Australia has, for decades, relied on immigration to staff hospitals. A very (very) senior public servant then in the Commonwealth Department of Health and Ageing told me, a decade and a half ago, that without immigration Australia would not have a public hospital system.

The lazy way works until the source is closed off.

There was a news story yesterday that said Victoria is bringing in 350 medical staff from overseas (through our 'closed' borders of course) to help remove pressure from its hospital system.

Aged care is the same.

[Xeptu]

OK get it, some people will always hate regardless, last year NSW was largely open and free whilst VIC was largely closed, I would have thought a good effort - apparently not for some. The Delta variant is obviously CV19 on steroids - yes GB stuffed up BUT if not her someone else would have, the Delta strain cannot be eliminated

I feel your frustration, but to be clear, there were a lot of lessons learned in the VIC event, many mistakes made and many of those as a consequence of fatigue, many are still paying the price for that.

VIC should have been the last event of that magnitude in Australia. It isn't because not only did NSW fail to learn those lessons it thumbed its nose at them and rolled out the Gold Standard. In fairness I think it was scomo that labelled that.

We need a vaccine that works, lasts more than the current 5 months, prevents infection and therefore spread. I don't believe it's unreasonable for the other states to take all reasonable steps to remain Covid free at this time under the current circumstances, until at very least we are all vaccinated. To not do so means 15% longcovid with severe side effects and 30% with concerning side effects among the unvaccinated. a very big price to pay.

[Lead Balloon]

Yes. That's true as well (ruprecht re aged care).You can't just have a system that has capacity for extreme events and peaks on Fridays and weekends due to drunk idiots and thrill seekers, it would cost a fortune to maintain that over 365 days a year.Yes 43I, but...

We're over 365 days into a pandemic, we need the extra capacity for at least another 365 days, and since when has spending a "fortune" been any impediment to the response to the pandemic?

[43Inches]

It's not that hard to get into healthcare and start work, thing is, do you have the stomach to stay in the work, get abused and clean up **** daily for your job. Australia gets immigrants for hospital work, mostly because locals don't want to do it. The real issue is not immigrants but casualised workforce that are forced to work across multiple sites as they can't get enough livable hours on one facility, which from a healthcare point of view is just inviting the spread of disease like Covid.

[-41]

RFDSWO rotary wing fleet should be unveiled soon.

https://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/wa/news/australian-first-was-flying-doctor/

[43Inches]

We're over 365 days into a pandemic, we need the extra capacity for at least another 365 days, and since when has spending a "fortune" been any impediment to the response to the pandemic?

You could train an orderly up in a few months and have them "helping out" around the place. But Doctors and Nurses are years of lead time training, and they are always in short supply. So even if they threw money at health care, which they haven't, all they can do is add extra wings and beds with no one to actually staff them. Paramedics and ambulance staff are they same, you can buy a fleet of ambulance and have no crew for them. Turnover rate is very high in both areas. And seriously, why in your right mind would you want to be a paramedic, half your calls are drunks and drug ODs on weekends most of which get angry and violent. And recently I've been told some of the Sydney covid calls to houses have been getting abused as well.

Shout out to all the ambulance staff out there, I know a few are ex aviators, Keep up the amazing work!

[-41]

The WA health department has refused to offer permanent contracts to 1000’s of nursing graduates in the last 18months. If WACHS and WA health refuse to offer permanent contracts trained personnel will move interstate.

[WingNut60]

07 Mar 2021 - WA Election: AMA says WA's health system is heading towards crisis point (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-07/wa-health-election-ambulance-ramping/13222088)

Not saying that the WA hospital situation is beyond criticism but in March the AMA was being headed up by Andrew Miller who seemed to have a very political drum to beat.
I'm pretty sure that the only thing stopping him from stepping up as the next rising WA Liberal star is the dilemma of a potential loss of revenue.

The comments from the AMA have been much less acerbic since Dr Omar Khorshid took the reins.

[Lead Balloon]

It's not that hard to get into healthcare and start work, thing is, do you have the stomach to stay in the work, get abused and clean up **** daily for your job. Australia gets immigrants for hospital work, mostly because locals don't want to do it. The real issue is not immigrants but casualised workforce that are forced to work across multiple sites as they can't get enough livable hours on one facility, which from a healthcare point of view is just inviting the spread of disease like Covid.
Indeed, which is why the system - and hospitals and aged care aren't the only examples - breaks down when the pipeline of cheap, menial labour is shut off.

Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.

[MickG0105]

Not saying that the WA hospital situation is beyond criticism but in March the AMA was being headed up by Andrew Miller who seemed to have a very political drum to beat.
I'm pretty sure that the only thing stopping him from stepping up as the next rising WA Liberal star is the dilemma of a potential loss of revenue.

Pretty sure that Dr Andrew Miller was courted as a potential candidate by the Labor Party in WA.

[43Inches]

Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.

Could not agree more, same as teachers etc, but health care and training are considered cost burdens to business and community. The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce was one area that should have been cleaned up as soon as covid hit. Most are working fulltime hours across several facilities, it would be easy to offer them full time work in single facilities and have the same workforce. But, like supermarkets and such, casual workforce are easier to manage and control. The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.

[Xeptu]

Could not agree more, same as teachers etc, but health care and training are considered cost burdens to business and community. The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce was one area that should have been cleaned up as soon as covid hit. Most are working fulltime hours across several facilities, it would be easy to offer them full time work in single facilities and have the same workforce. But, like supermarkets and such, casual workforce are easier to manage and control. The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.

They learnt it all from us in aviation.

[MickG0105]

... The casualised nature of the Aged care workforce ...
What leads you to believe that the aged care workforce is 'casualised'? The data that I've seen shows the opposite, that the aged care workforce is largely made up of permanent full-time and part-time employees - around 75 percent - with the number of casual and contract arrangements shrinking over the past decade.

[43Inches]

What leads you to believe that the aged care workforce is 'casualised'? The data that I've seen shows the opposite, that the aged care workforce is largely made up of permanent full-time and part-time employees - around 75 percent - with the number of casual and contract arrangements shrinking over the past decade.

Might depend on your state, Victoria is still very casualised. The federal government has put in place some restrictions this year on it, so I am really referring to last years issues, but these are covid measures, so does it mean post covid will it return to the same with them dying from the flu for the same reason.

[neville_nobody]

The government could easily fix this by mandating % of workforce be permanent to ensure casuals are only a small part, but they wont do this as it would piss off Coles and Woolies and many other government backers in big business.

That doesn't work. Pre aviation I worked in a highly casualised industry and people were refusing to take full time or permanent part time because it was a pay-cut. Things became a bit nasty as the business expected people to migrate to full time arrangement but the workers refused which ended up increasing the labour cost.

Similar situation in hospitality. Alot of people don't want the full time work and be forced to work. Plenty of staff with side gigs or other responsibilities/interests.
I would be curious in health how many of the casuals would take the full time work with the associated lower pay rate. I'm guessing they can work across a few hospitals and get paid more.

[43Inches]

Similar situation in hospitality. Alot of people don't want the full time work and be forced to work. Plenty of staff with side gigs or other responsibilities.

Been there seen them, almost all then get to a point they want a loan for a house or car and then suddenly want full time employment and no-one offers it and they complain bitterly about how unfair it is. They are also very short sighted in that they don't realise for the 25% (much less if part time) extra pay they have opted out of super and holidays.

When Coles offered to take aviation employees on they also dropped the hours on many others working for the company significantly, which being a major casual employer they can do without reason.

[MickG0105]

Might depend on your state, Victoria is still very casualised.
Really? Do you have any data to support that contention?

You sure you're not confusing 'casual' with 'part-time' ? There's no dispute that the bulk of the aged care workforce is employed as permanent part-time.

[43Inches]

Really? Do you have any data to support that contention?

You sure you're not confusing 'casual' with 'part-time' ? There's no dispute that the bulk of the aged care workforce is employed as permanent part-time.
26th Aug 2021 12:30

Not sure what you are arguing here, of course they are, if you add in administration and those running the show. The main issue is the general staff, which of that possibly the figure is up to 40%. They are the ones changing the bedding and cleaning toilets, and if they get covid, they pass it on to the whole facility in quick time. The Karens that run the facilities and their buddies are all on good full time packages, as well as team leaders and medical staff etc.

You could say a Supermarket has 30% full time staff, but, everyone on the shop floor will be casual or limited part time.

You are right I probably am including part time in those figures, but they are the same issue, just less spread of workplaces.

[rattman]

Maybe - and I know I'm off with the fairies here - Australia should learn a lesson and focus on developing greater capacity to train doctors and health care staff locally, and pay them properly.

Know some registered nurses all 3 have moved to australia because they are paid more here than for the NHS, aged care is totally different kettle of fish

[WingNut60]

Pretty sure that Dr Andrew Miller was courted as a potential candidate by the Labor Party in WA.
Really? I would never, ever have picked or thought that. Though I did find this reference:

AMA WA President Dr Andrew Miller has rejected rumours that he will be turning his hand to politics ahead of the upcoming 2021 state election.

The rumours were broadcasted this morning on 6PR radio, tipping WA’s top doctor Andrew Miller has been approached to run as the Labor Candidate for Cockburn.

Dr Miller has laughed hysterically when he was asked to confirm whether the rumour is true or not.

“Not true,” Dr Miller replied to WAMN News.


I suspect that any such rumour was tongue in cheek.

[MickG0105]

Not sure what you are arguing here, of course they are, if you add in administration and those running the show. The main issue is the general staff, which of that possibly the figure is up to 40%. They are the ones changing the bedding and cleaning toilets, and if they get covid, they pass it on to the whole facility in quick time. The Karens that run the facilities and their buddies are all on good full time packages, as well as team leaders and medical staff etc.

You could say a Supermarket has 30% full time staff, but, everyone on the shop floor will be casual or limited part time.

You are right I probably am including part time in those figures, but they are the same issue, just less spread of workplaces.
Your original contention was that the aged care workforce is "casualised". That term, casualised, has a specific meaning; the replacement of a permanently employed workforce by casual workers.

That is most assuredly not the case in the aged care workforce. The National Institute of Labour Studies at Flinders University conducts the National Aged Care Workforce Census every four years so there is an excellent dataset for that workforce. Due to collection issues with the 2020 census, the 2016 census (https://gen-agedcaredata.gov.au/Resources/Reports-and-publications/2017/March/The-aged-care-workforce,-2016) provides the most recent data.

The data shows that the trend in the aged care workforce has been away from casual employment; between 2012 and 2016 permanent full-time employment in the sector increased, permanent part-time employment also increased and casual employment decreased by almost half. That is the opposite of a casualised workforce.

[Lead Balloon]

And do the data to which you referred distinguish between the workers who spend most of their time in contact with and moving among the aged in their care, on the one hand, and the 'administrators' - for want of a better term - on the other?

[43Inches]

Again just an argument in semantics.

The problem with aged care is the casualised part of their workforce. The cleaners, cooks, casual carers, etc. These are the ones that travel between sites and move around the entire facility, and are most likely the lowest paid and lowest education level, coming from backgrounds with other casual working family members that congregate in numbers. The professional workforce, ie nurses, doctors, specialists, accountants, marketing, liaisons and management are most likely full or part time and are not the issue. Again even if its just 25% of your workforce is casual and travelling between multiple sites, that's still too much. The facility is only as secure as its weakest link.

I don't know why I needed 4 posts to explain that a Aged care facility is not just a bunch of nurses, I thought that would be obvious.

[MickG0105]

I don't know why I needed 4 posts to explain that a Aged care facility is not just a bunch of nurses, I thought that would be obvious.
Possibly because you don't know the meaning of some of the words that you use. If only there was some sort of resource, like a list of words and their meanings, that people could refer to.

[MickG0105]

And do the data to which you referred distinguish between the workers who spend most of their time in contact with and moving among the aged in their care, on the one hand, and the 'administrators' - for want of a better term - on the other?
Yes, it does. For residential direct care workers (ie workers who spend most of their time in contact with and moving among the aged in their care), 10.1 percent of the workforce was casual or contract.

The breakdown by sub-group was Registered Nurses - 9.8 percent, Enrolled Nurses - 7.8 percent, Personal Care Attendants - 10.8 percent, and Allied Health Workers - 4.8 percent. In 2012 those numbers were 18.7 percent of the direct care workforce was casual or contract; Registered Nurses - 19.4 percent, Enrolled Nurses - 14.8 percent, Personal Care Attendants - 19.5 percent, and Allied Health Workers - 15.1 percent.

And just by the bye, only 4 percent of the direct care workforce had a second job in residential aged care.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Possibly because you don't know the meaning of some of the words that you use. If only there was some sort of resource, like a list of words and their meanings, that people could refer to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOSYiT2iG08

[43Inches]

Yes, it does. For residential direct care workers (ie workers who spend most of their time in contact with and moving among the aged in their care), 10.1 percent of the workforce was casual or contract.

The breakdown by sub-group was Registered Nurses - 9.8 percent, Enrolled Nurses - 7.8 percent, Personal Care Attendants - 10.8 percent, and Allied Health Workers - 4.8 percent. In 2012 those numbers were 18.7 percent of the direct care workforce was casual or contract; Registered Nurses - 19.4 percent, Enrolled Nurses - 14.8 percent, Personal Care Attendants - 19.5 percent, and Allied Health Workers - 15.1 percent.

And just by the bye, only 4 percent of the direct care workforce had a second job in residential aged care.

This is just silly, at least two aged care facilities the virus spread to via a casual delivery driver, so those figures mean nothing. As I said measuring how many nurses are at a facility does not matter. You are just pulling stats out of your backside to make some weird argument that somehow casual workforce was not involved in the spread. When in Melbourne it was directly responsible for it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-17/coronavirus-vic-melbourne-casual-aged-care-worker-restrictions/12464302

The Victorian aged care sector is trying to stop casuals from working at a number of different residential homes because, in some cases, staff who were unwell had inadvertently brought the virus into aged care facilities.


By the by, the federal government as I said earlier has actually restricted movement between sites, as they have recognised it as an issue. Basically you have to just work at the site that gives you the most work.


I decided to change tact with the issue,

Aged care is considered highly casualised for a simple reason, the part time positions that 78% of the workforce are on are basically casual conditions (or worse) in a contract. A lot of those contracts guarantee less than 10 hours a week and only exist as they corner the applicant into working casual hours at agreement pay (less than casual rates) rather than casual pay rates. Now maybe I should have used the words quasi-casualisation, but most people involved with the industry refer to it as straight casualisation. The term is used to show a move away from full time positions and the part time positions are actually worse than being on casual rates. Part-timilised workforce doesn't quite sound correct.

[MickG0105]

This is just silly, at least two aged care facilities the virus spread to via a casual delivery driver, so those figures mean nothing. As I said measuring how many nurses are at a facility does not matter. You are just pulling stats out of your backside to make some weird argument that somehow casual workforce was not involved in the spread. When in Melbourne it was directly responsible for it.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-17/coronavirus-vic-melbourne-casual-aged-care-worker-restrictions/12464302



By the by, the federal government as I said earlier has actually restricted movement between sites, as they have recognised it as an issue. Basically you have to just work at the site that gives you the most work.


I decided to change tact with the issue,

Aged care is considered highly casualised for a simple reason, the part time positions that 78% of the workforce are on are basically casual conditions (or worse) in a contract. A lot of those contracts guarantee less than 10 hours a week and only exist as they corner the applicant into working casual hours at agreement pay (less than casual rates) rather than casual pay rates. Now maybe I should have used the words quasi-casualisation, but most people involved with the industry refer to it as straight casualisation. The term is used to show a move away from full time positions and the part time positions are actually worse than being on casual rates. Part-timilised workforce doesn't quite sound correct.
Your original contention was about the "casualised nature of the Aged care workforce". I've demonstrated with verifiable data from a reputable source that the aged care workforce has not been casualised. Don't like the data, come up with something better rather than trying to change the meaning of words.

For fear of stating the blindingly obvious, delivery drivers, casual or otherwise, are not part of the aged care workforce; they're part of the transportation industry workforce.

As to yet another false contention from you, that I've argued that the casual workforce was not involved in spreading COVID-19, I haven't said boo about that. That's just something else you've made up. I commented quite specifically on your patently and demonstrably false contention that the aged care workforce was casualised. It's not. If you're going to trot out misconstrued opinion in the unconditionally declarative form as a fact, expect to be called on it once in a while.

As to your changing tact, I've seen little demonstrated in this exchange. Unless you were looking to change the accepted meaning of another word, I suspect that you meant "tack".

[43Inches]

Oops did mean change tack,

However my assertion still stands correct, the nature of the aged care sector is casualised. The part time agreements are casual in nature. So still efectively are casualising the workforce.

[minigundiplomat]

Mick, try googling the information. You seem to be proactive at googling statements or reports that support your premise that everything isn’t that bad. You are always on here saying how well the economy is going and how things are better than they seem. I call bollocks. There are countless economists online discussing how many businesses are failing. There are equally as many psychologists mentioning how counselling services are out of control. There are countless medical experts telling us that lockdowns are causing people to cancel doctors visits and things like cancer are going undiagnosed. Sure, online shopping, camper van and caravan sales and vehicle sales have skyrocketed. But ask the tourism operators and businesses, the taxi and transport industry and the hotel/motel industry how things are going and it’s a different story. Our economy has been broken in half. We have now been saddled with decades more debt. Using rigged stock market prices and inflated house prices as a measure of a strong economy is an absolute false reading.

I would have suggested Mick visits Cairns and tells local businesses owners how well the economy is booming, but I fear it may result in him getting his lights punched out.

I think this thread, in running its course, has highlighted how rooted Australia (and NZ) actually are; there are two distinct groups who are never going to see eye to eye on a major contemporary issue, and I see that also across society.

[MickG0105]

I would have suggested Mick visits Cairns and tells local businesses owners how well the economy is booming, but I fear it may result in him getting his lights punched out.

I think this thread, in running its course, has highlighted how rooted Australia (and NZ) actually are; there are two distinct groups who are never going to see eye to eye on a major contemporary issue, and I see that also across society.
For the avoidance of any doubt and further embarrassment to some contributors, I have not said nor argued that the economy is booming. As I pointed out to P377 at the time I hadn't said boo about the performance of the Australian economy other than to simply to state the facts that while the Australian economy shrank in 2020, by Q1-21 the economy had recovered such that it was larger than in Q4-19.

I have family in Cairns, I am well aware of the two-speed economy up there.

But, you know, glass half full - thanks for thinking of me.

[Torukmacto]

WA to ban people living there after 2 truck drivers test positive . Premier said it’s a tough step to take but best for the state going forward .

[SHVC]

Lock down now, go hard McGowen Delta is very deadly and highly virulent squash and crush this virus early.

[PoppaJo]

AFL grand final in Cairns or Hobart I say.

[machtuk]

Searth YouTube "House bill 4471"
this ought to be good!:}

[dr dre]

Searth YouTube "House bill 4471"
this ought to be good!:}

How - we aren’t in the US State of Michigan? Australian legislatures aren’t controlled by the now crackpot US Republican Party. That bill (that bans mask and vaccine mandates) is doomed to fail in Michigan anyway, so zero chance of anything similar passing in Australia where both major parties support mandates.

[minigundiplomat]

Lock down now, go hard McGowen Delta is very deadly and highly virulent squash and crush this virus early.

SHUT THE BORDER….

[pithblot]

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)

[Obba]

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)

Ivermectin is a Parasitic drug. Not a Anti-Viral drug. It is used in humans for parasitic worms, head lice etc. More commonly used on horses.
The FDA is currently doing tests to see its effectiveness with Covid.

Of course it may help Covid symptoms, but it may not...
The Vaccines are NOW are proven to negate or hugely reduce Covid deaths.
There are side effects to any drug.

And still to this day, there is no known cure for any known Virus - including the common cold...

[Ladloy]

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)
Definitely not a trusted source of infomation, especially when the other videos are from infowars

[dr dre]

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)

It’s a poorly shot video on a camera phone of someone called Nicole, first name given only, who claims to be an ICU Nurse and cries “we’re all being lied to!” and tells us to watch the JRE podcast for “the truth”.

As far as the rubbish I’ve seen from anti-vaxxers in the last 12 months that was one of the worst.

[rattman]

Ivermectin is a Parasitic drug. Not a Anti-Viral drug. It is used in humans for parasitic worms, head lice etc. More commonly used on horses.
The FDA is currently doing tests to see its effectiveness with Covid.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a-police-captain-who-refused-the-vaccine-and-took-the-anti-parasitic-ivermectin-to-combat-covid-19-dies-from-the-virus/ar-AANQm8D?ocid=msedgntp

[KRviator]

1,218 new cases in New Sick Wales today, completely skipping the 1100's...The genie is well and truly out of the bottle, but of the 6 new deaths, all over 70, 4 unvaccinated, and two with only one dose. Now that makes me wonder, as I'm in my 30's having my second dose this arvo - though I would have preferred to not have them at all, that's not an option if I want to get back to work the way McGoose is carrying on...

But anyways... if people in their 70's & 80's haven't had even one dose the question needs to asked, why are millions of people lockdown, losing literally billions of dollars in salary & super, to protect people who won't try to protect themselves!?? At what point do we say "You've had your chance to get the shot, you've not taken it, so you're on your own! Good luck!" because I refuse to believe someone who is over 70 has not had a chance to get both vaccinations by now.

[Xeptu]

1,218 new cases in New Sick Wales today, completely skipping the 1100's...The genie is well and truly out of the bottle, but of the 6 new deaths, all over 70, 4 unvaccinated, and two with only one dose. Now that makes me wonder, as I'm in my 30's having my second dose this arvo - though I would have preferred to not have them at all, that's not an option if I want to get back to work the way McGoose is carrying on...

But anyways... if people in their 70's & 80's haven't had even one dose the question needs to asked, why are millions of people lockdown, losing literally billions of dollars in salary & super, to protect people who won't try to protect themselves!?? At what point do we say "You've had your chance to get the shot, you've not taken it, so you're on your own! Good luck!" because I refuse to believe someone who is over 70 has not had a chance to get both vaccinations by now.

A better question might be Why weren't they vaccinated. Is it because they chose not to be or is it a health department failing. Also does the 1218 include unlinked cases or hasn't that come into effect yet.

[machtuk]

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)

You are wasting yr time presenting anything that goes against the infected/indoctrinated here, they simply believe in their own insulated world of Govt skewed figures that suits the lunatic Govt & nothing will convince them otherwise!

[Ladloy]

You are wasting yr time presenting anything that goes against the infected/indoctrinated here, they simply believe in their own insulated world of Govt skewed figures that suits the lunatic Govt & nothing will convince them otherwise!
you're cooked if you think that link is a viable source of information.

[Ladloy]

1,218 new cases in New Sick Wales today, completely skipping the 1100's...The genie is well and truly out of the bottle, but of the 6 new deaths, all over 70, 4 unvaccinated, and two with only one dose. Now that makes me wonder, as I'm in my 30's having my second dose this arvo - though I would have preferred to not have them at all, that's not an option if I want to get back to work the way McGoose is carrying on...

But anyways... if people in their 70's & 80's haven't had even one dose the question needs to asked, why are millions of people lockdown, losing literally billions of dollars in salary & super, to protect people who won't try to protect themselves!?? At what point do we say "You've had your chance to get the shot, you've not taken it, so you're on your own! Good luck!" because I refuse to believe someone who is over 70 has not had a chance to get both vaccinations by now.
A few 30yos died in the last week. Unvaxxed

[Chronic Snoozer]

But anyways... if people in their 70's & 80's haven't had even one dose the question needs to asked, why are millions of people lockdown, losing literally billions of dollars in salary & super, to protect people who won't try to protect themselves!?? At what point do we say "You've had your chance to get the shot, you've not taken it, so you're on your own! Good luck!" because I refuse to believe someone who is over 70 has not had a chance to get both vaccinations by now.

Some elderly may not have had vaccinations due to medical reasons.

[pithblot]

Ivermectin is a Parasitic drug. Not a Anti-Viral drug. It is used in humans for parasitic worms, head lice etc. More commonly used on horses.
The FDA is currently doing tests to see its effectiveness with Covid.

Of course it may help Covid symptoms, but it may not...
The Vaccines are NOW are proven to negate or hugely reduce Covid deaths.
There are side effects to any drug.

And still to this day, there is no known cure for any known Virus - including the common cold...


Dr Altman’s letter deals with Ivermectin in the management of covid. It has info worth considering.

Veteran of the drug-testing industry speaks out, ‘A Total Lack of Therapeutic Perspective’ (https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/public-health/2021/08/a-total-lack-of-therapeutic-perspective/)


Post # 7966

This video deals with covid. It has info worth considering.

ICU nurse speaks out (https://www.bitchute.com/video/3gjQE9cFSc1p/)

[43Inches]

Invermectim is an anti parasite drug, for use vs round worm and similar. It also has some bad side effects that can be detrimental to your health and has no proven effect vs Covid or any other virus. What that has to do with Covid vaccines I have no idea, but it's use is along the lines of Trumps hydroxycloroquine assertions.

Stop spreading this crap and go get vaccinated.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

And please don't take the animal forms of this stuff, as what has been happening in the US, taking horse drugs just proves how stupid people are when deciding whats good for them.

[SHVC]

A better question might be Why weren't they vaccinated. Is it because they chose not to be or is it a health department failing. Also does the 1218 include unlinked cases or hasn't that come into effect yet.

NSW does not do break down of cases anymore, meaningless and pointless. The premier reiterated many times today, 70% vax rate which will be 5-8 weeks from today NSW will not be in lock down or go into a lock down ever again.The break down in ICU patients as of today of the 125 only 1 patient is double vaccinated NSW health system will be able to cope. Shame other states haven't pulled their fingers out.

[Dannyboy39]

I see that Qantas is looking at moving it’s ultra long run from London to Perth, to Darwin instead because of the way WA are acting. How many lads and lasses are based in PER on the 787 fleet? Or are they usually MEL based for this run?

[JustinHeywood]

You are wasting yr time presenting anything that goes against the infected/indoctrinated here, they simply believe in their own insulated world of Govt skewed figures that suits the lunatic Govt & nothing will convince them otherwise!

Why is that conspiracy nutters ALWAYS think they have some superior insight or intelligence.

Its ironic that the latest iteration of this lunacy is that only ‘sheeple’ take the approved vaccine, apparently the really smart people are taking an unapproved livestock dewormer, based on something they’ve been fed on YouTube.

[43Inches]

Ivermectin was used widely in India due to some flawed reasoning, it has since been removed from treatment advice as a result of a rethink.

https://medicaldialogues.in/news/health/government-policies/govt-excludes-anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-from-covid-19-treatment-protocol-70790

There is some suggestion that IN LARGE doses far above normal it may offer some protection, however the doses required result in other complications, as this is not what the drug was designed for. Hence the FDA warning as some have ended up in trouble after taking the Equine tablets thinking the increased dose was safe and ending up dead or in hospital.

In normal safe doses it has negligible to no benefit vs Covid. Treatment using it is akin to saying, lets douse you in petrol and light it, yep, that kills the virus, but also the patient, oops. Maybe that's why we have orgs like the WHO and FDA to say what's safe to use.

India was also pumping patients full of other drugs including steroids which ended up giving some black fungus, which is nasty and kills at about 50% rates.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Why is that conspiracy nutters ALWAYS think they have some superior insight or intelligence.


To compensate for the fact that deep down, they know they don’t really. And it helps them feel a bit special.

[Torukmacto]

Yep , it’s unfortunate but some people have weakened immune systems , some are old and frail and some have a weakened mind . Not everyone can be saved and Australians are having trouble getting their heads around this fact , in the meantime we are losing time and wealth while we all pull in different directions .

[Xeptu]

NSW does not do break down of cases anymore, meaningless and pointless. The premier reiterated many times today, 70% vax rate which will be 5-8 weeks from today NSW will not be in lock down or go into a lock down ever again.The break down in ICU patients as of today of the 125 only 1 patient is double vaccinated NSW health system will be able to cope. Shame other states haven't pulled their fingers out.

Did she really say that? I read loosened restrictions, like you can go to the park if the adults are vaccinated, but nothing about lockdowns.

[SHVC]

Did she really say that? I read loosened restrictions, like you can go to the park if the adults are vaccinated, but nothing about lockdowns.

You can go to the park if you're vaccinated from 13th September max 5 ppl. presser today 70%= freedoms at 80%=no lock downs. it will become a pandemic of the un vaccinated.

about 33 minutes.

[Cirressna]

Ivermectin was used widely in India due to some flawed reasoning, it has since been removed from treatment advice as a result of a rethink.

https://medicaldialogues.in/news/health/government-policies/govt-excludes-anti-parasitic-drug-ivermectin-from-covid-19-treatment-protocol-70790

There is some suggestion that IN LARGE doses far above normal it may offer some protection, however the doses required result in other complications, as this is not what the drug was designed for. Hence the FDA warning as some have ended up in trouble after taking the Equine tablets thinking the increased dose was safe and ending up dead or in hospital.

In normal safe doses it has negligible to no benefit vs Covid. Treatment using it is akin to saying, lets douse you in petrol and light it, yep, that kills the virus, but also the patient, oops. Maybe that's why we have orgs like the WHO and FDA to say what's safe to use.

India was also pumping patients full of other drugs including steroids which ended up giving some black fungus, which is nasty and kills at about 50% rates.

I'm by no means an Ivermectin advocate, and let's not turn this thread into that, but Oxford has started a trial on the drug for the treatment of covid. It will be very interesting what the results are. Does basically everyone have to apologise to Craig Kelly etc if it does prove effective? Reminds me of the lab leak 'conspiracy' that Fbook had to uncensor.

Study Link (https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial#:~:text=Oxford's%20PRINCIPLE%20trial-,Ivermectin%20to%20be%20investigated%20as%20a%20possible%20t reatment%20for,19%20in%20Oxford's%20PRINCIPLE%20trial&text=PRINCIPLE%20is%20one%20of%20UK,looking%20for%20treatmen ts%20at%20home.)

[Xeptu]

She said there won't be a "statewide" lockdown beyond 80% double dose. A fair call too, very unlikely any of the states would need to do that. The NSW critical care unit is at 50% capacity, if that were SA or WA we would be at full capacity. It didn't go un-noticed that Scomo got the credit for the extra 500,000 doses either. What are the odds that should a breakout occur in SA or WA the states will be slated as incompetent fools for not having enough people vaxed. The political web we weave.

[43Inches]

Ciressna, yep, the initial studies were positive, but it's my understanding that the dose required for it to work is way above the regarded safe dose. The resultant side effects from that dose level can result in nausea, severe diarrhea and other not so nice things, which is pretty much what covid gives its mild sufferers anyway. Like steroids it may have some use in this amount vs severe cases where the patient might die otherwise, but it seems India has backed away from it's use due to no firm evidence over thousands of uses that in real life it achieves anything. Indian doctors have done all sorts of weird things with different drugs that has actually made some patients worse off, like the incorrect application of steroids in early cases rather than to treat severe symptoms, resulting in black fungus infection.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

Interesting read that where it seems the study was completely bogus with false data presented, then revoked as "ethical concerns"

It's nice to think that it could be some sort of magical elixer vs covid, but the fact that it and HCQ have been removed from recommended treatment lists in India means they are pretty sure it has no beneficial effect, otherwise why not continue it's use. It's cheap and abundant.

[SHVC]

She said there won't be a "statewide" lockdown beyond 80% double dose. A fair call too, very unlikely any of the states would need to do that. The NSW critical care unit is at 50% capacity, if that were SA or WA we would be at full capacity. It didn't go un-noticed that Scomo got the credit for the extra 500,000 doses either. What are the odds that should a breakout occur in SA or WA the states will be slated as incompetent fools for not having enough people vaxed. The political web we weave.

No, Gladys said “the whole point of getting to those vaccination milestones you don’t have lockdowns in the future you manage the disease” 35 minutes in.

[Ladloy]

I'm by no means an Ivermectin advocate, and let's not turn this thread into that, but Oxford has started a trial on the drug for the treatment of covid. It will be very interesting what the results are. Does basically everyone have to apologise to Craig Kelly etc if it does prove effective? Reminds me of the lab leak 'conspiracy' that Fbook had to uncensor.

Study Link (https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial#:~:text=Oxford's%20PRINCIPLE%20trial-,Ivermectin%20to%20be%20investigated%20as%20a%20possible%20t reatment%20for,19%20in%20Oxford's%20PRINCIPLE%20trial&text=PRINCIPLE%20is%20one%20of%20UK,looking%20for%20treatmen ts%20at%20home.)
If it's effective it will be in the data from the trial, just like the vaccine. Ill trust the science over the facebook conspiracies. No apology necessary

[Xeptu]

No, Gladys said “the whole point of getting to those vaccination milestones you don’t have lockdowns in the future you manage the disease” 35 minutes in.

feel freer, more freedoms, is the whole point of vaccinations so that lockdowns are not needed, did not commit to "no lockdowns" other than a statewide lockdown. Political speak is a wonderful thing. When what you heard is challenged, she will say noooo! I didn't say that, I said......

Keep her answers to the questions separated, don't see what she says as a press release statement

[machtuk]

If you have to be persuaded, locked down, curfewed, reminded, pressured, coerced, lied to, socially shamed, incentivised, guilt tripped, paid, threatened, punished and or criminalised to gain your compliance then you can absolutely be certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest!

[nivsy]

If you have to be persuaded, locked down, curfewed, reminded, pressured, coerced, lied to, socially shamed, incentivised, guilt tripped, paid, threatened, punished and or criminalised to gain your compliance then you can absolutely be certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest!
Ok so easy to say ...and your solution is?

[Xeptu]

Ok so easy to say ...and your solution is?

Ask nicely for the fence sitters, everyone will most likely be vaccinated when they can anyway without the need to ask. I'm not sure that anyone can just get vaccinated tomorrow anywhere.

[WingNut60]

Ask nicely for the fence sitters, everyone will most likely be vaccinated when they can anyway without the need to ask. I'm not sure that anyone can just get vaccinated tomorrow anywhere.
They can. That's if they're in the >60 age group and prepared to accept A-Z.
Asked at my local pharmacy on Saturday. Yep, no problem, we have plenty.

[dr dre]

I'm by no means an Ivermectin advocate, and let's not turn this thread into that, but Oxford has started a trial on the drug for the treatment of covid. It will be very interesting what the results are. Does basically everyone have to apologise to Craig Kelly etc if it does prove effective?


I don’t see how another study is going to show Ivermectin is the miracle drug it’s claimed to be given the countless studies that’s proved it isn’t. Or the studies that recently had to be retracted due to being outright fabrications (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns).

So I’m fairly sure we can continue laughing at Craig Kelly instead of ever having to apologise to him.

Here’s a real life example (https://www.insider.com/texas-leading-anti-mask-protester-caleb-wallace-dies-of-covid-19-2021-8) of Ivermectin’s effectiveness, and the theories of Charles Darwin at work:


A man from Texas who organized protests against COVID-19 safety measures has died of the virus after spending nearly a month in hospital.

Caleb Wallace's death was confirmed by his wife Jessica on a GoFundMe page that she had created to raise funds for medical and household bills.

The 30-year-old father of three helped organize rallies last year to protest against pandemic safety measures, including lockdowns, masks, and vaccinations, which he called "COVID tyranny."

His wife, Jessica Wallace, told the San Angelo Standard-Times that her husband began showing symptoms on July 26 and initially refused to get tested or go to the hospital.

Wallace chose to treat himself with ivermectin, an anti-parasitic medication used to deworm horses, and high doses of Vitamin C, zinc aspirin, and an inhaler.

[highflyer40]

If you have to be persuaded, locked down, curfewed, reminded, pressured, coerced, lied to, socially shamed, incentivised, guilt tripped, paid, threatened, punished and or criminalised to gain your compliance then you can absolutely be certain that what is being promoted is not in your best interest!

No all it means is you Australians are a strange lot!

2 billion people are fully vaccinated. Another 2.5 billion have had their first dose.

People aren’t falling dead all over the globe after receiving their vaccine.

[aviation_enthus]

1,218 new cases in New Sick Wales today, completely skipping the 1100's...The genie is well and truly out of the bottle, but of the 6 new deaths, all over 70, 4 unvaccinated, and two with only one dose. Now that makes me wonder, as I'm in my 30's having my second dose this arvo - though I would have preferred to not have them at all, that's not an option if I want to get back to work the way McGoose is carrying on...

But anyways... if people in their 70's & 80's haven't had even one dose the question needs to asked, why are millions of people lockdown, losing literally billions of dollars in salary & super, to protect people who won't try to protect themselves!?? At what point do we say "You've had your chance to get the shot, you've not taken it, so you're on your own! Good luck!" because I refuse to believe someone who is over 70 has not had a chance to get both vaccinations by now.

Well you can believe that, YES it is the case that plenty of 70+ year olds haven’t had a “chance to be vaccinated” yet.

Personally have extended family in Sydney that struggled to get the first dose (due to having to navigate the overly complicated system) and then when they went to get the second AZ dose were told there wasn’t any!!

Other older friends in Melbourne took 3 weeks-running around (of personal time) before he could get the first AZ dose.

As for aged care residents and workers, I don’t understand why they haven’t all been done months ago!! I mean aged care residents live there, not exactly hard to find them is it….

But given how overly complicated and ridiculous the vaccine rollout has been, I don’t think we are at the point of “everyone has had an opportunity”. That time will come, I’d argue by 1st December* we should be able to easily say “you’re on your own now if you choose not to get vaccinated”.

*80% double jabbed plus two weeks to allow full protection.

[SHVC]

Aussie truck drivers are doing the work for Anna stay away, road block into QLD nice relief for her. She will be spewing her Amazon order won’t be arriving today tho.

[blubak]

I see that Qantas is looking at moving it’s ultra long run from London to Perth, to Darwin instead because of the way WA are acting. How many lads and lasses are based in PER on the 787 fleet? Or are they usually MEL based for this run?
Pretty sure no PER base,they would use PER as an overnight stop from an east coast city before doing PER -LHR & vv.

[Cafe City]

Aussie truck drivers are doing the work for Anna stay away, road block into QLD nice relief for her. She will be spewing her Amazon order won’t be arriving today tho.

I understood they were blocking the M1 southbound…

[Xeptu]

No all it means is you Australians are a strange lot! 2 billion people are fully vaccinated. Another 2.5 billion have had their first dose.
People aren’t falling dead all over the globe after receiving their vaccine.

For you guys in the UK I'll try and put some perspective on it for you. The 20% population we are talking about are mostly our regional people, our primary producers, the nations food bowl, not only ours but yours too. The area has small communities of about 150 people spread over the length and width of the entire UK, these don't have hospitals and the nearest doctor can be 500km's away. We know that because of their isolation they are lower priority, so vaccines are redirected to higher priority zones and in some cases to another state. We know the virus will eventually arrive in their communities, so the vaccines must get there first. At the moment we simply don't have the vaccines and a limited number of delivery teams.

Some in our nation, those in the cities that don't understand the logistics involved, the ones that think Sydney is Australia, want to forge ahead anyway. Our regional communities don't think that way and nor do our leaders in those states. I hope that sheds some light on the magnitude of the problem, they are not antivaxers or protesters, they're all in the capitol cities, the same as yours.

When I commute between properties to move shearers an harvest teams around, its like flying from Dublin to Berlin, then back to London via Madrid, All those little communties are along those routes.

[rattman]

Aussie truck drivers are doing the work for Anna stay away, road block into QLD nice relief for her. She will be spewing her Amazon order won’t be arriving today tho.


Weird know an actual truck driver and QLD is one the easiest state to get into according to him if the paperwork is correct, one of the few states that actually has drive through testing capable of taking heavy vehicles. Other states like VIC he has to park the truck then transport to a testing facility and back again.

[SHVC]

It did t last long only an hr, PH of all ppl spoke with the drivers to move on allegedly.

[43Inches]

Weird know an actual truck driver and QLD is one the easiest state to get into according to him if the paperwork is correct, one of the few states that actually has drive through testing capable of taking heavy vehicles. Other states like VIC he has to park the truck then transport to a testing facility and back again.

Not weird at all when most likely CP and his mob are most likely behind stirring this up. There's a lot of this sentiment and poor advice coming from Queenslanders and I'd hazard a guess that one large person may be the prime agitator.

[rattman]

Not weird at all when most likely CP and his mob are most likely behind stirring this up. There's a lot of this sentiment and poor advice coming from Queenslanders and I'd hazard a guess that one large person may be the prime agitator.
they are also turning one of the boondall complex in 24/7 heavy vehicle drive through testing

[Xeptu]

In my humble opinion, there are elements to that statement that are quite correct, "except" in a "state of emergency" It gets interesting where the feds open the international borders, does that mean an end the the national state of emergency. The states have those powers also with respect to their own borders, irrespective of what the feds decide. Can the feds do that without the states. Either way it would be federal political suicide. I wonder what the governor general is thinking right now.

[Potsie Weber]

1. Australia does not have Emergency Use Authorisation for vaccines. The COVID vaccines were provisionally approved as per any vaccine.
2. Vaccines cannot be forced upon people, but it is quite legal to deny service/benefit or offer incentive.
3. It is likely businesses will not sack people for not being vaccinated, but will make them compulsorily redundant.

[Xeptu]

1. Australia does not have Emergency Use Authorisation for vaccines. The COVID vaccines were provisionally approved as per any vaccine.
2. Vaccines cannot be forced upon people, but it is quite legal to deny service/benefit or offer incentive.
3. It is likely businesses will not sack people for not being vaccinated, but will make them compulsorily redundant.

point 3. is however discrimination, replace vaccinated, with religion.

[highflyer40]

point 3. is however discrimination, replace vaccinated, with religion.

It’s not discrimination. As the laws on discrimination in Australia are very specific in that it only applies to certain attributes. Such as age, disability, sex, religion, and a few others I can’t be bothered to type. So there is no framework in law in Australia for someone to claim discrimination for being made redundant for not being vaccinated. There may be other laws you could use, but this isn’t one of them.

[MickG0105]

point 3. is however discrimination, replace vaccinated, with religion.
To quote from the Fair Work Ombudsman webpage (https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employee-entitlements/protections-at-work/protection-from-discrimination-at-work) on workplace discrimination;

Discrimination occurs in the workplace when an employer takes adverse action against an employee or prospective employee because of a protected attribute.

Religion is a protected attribute; medical status is not. They are not interchangeable for the purpose of determining discrimination in the workplace.

[SHVC]

Anna stay away has done her self and state proud once again. Banning all entry into QLD not even allowing a lady that’s had cancer treatment and lives 75km from the health center. But, if you’re a family member of the NRL you’re good to go come in as you please. QLD and WA have their own agendas which premier is more sick in the mind? Keeping hotels free for NRL family’s is just wrong QLDnrs should be ashamed of their premier.

[Colonel_Klink]

1. Australia does not have Emergency Use Authorisation for vaccines. The COVID vaccines were provisionally approved as per any vaccine.
2. Vaccines cannot be forced upon people, but it is quite legal to deny service/benefit or offer incentive.
3. It is likely businesses will not sack people for not being vaccinated, but will make them compulsorily redundant.

The third point is wishful thinking to say the least. The QF group have come out and said if you don’t fulfil the requirements of your role (ie have the COVID vaccine), your employment will be terminated.

They are certainly not going to be paying QF long haul pilots a 96 week redundancy if they refuse to be vaccinated.

Airline pilots in Australia (both QF group and Virgin) have a very clear decision to make over the next 6-8 weeks - get vaccinated or run the very real risk that you will no longer have a job.

Pretty easy decision really.

[DirectAnywhere]

The third point is wishful thinking to say the least. The QF group have come out and said if you don’t fulfil the requirements of your role (ie have the COVID vaccine), your employment will be terminated.

They are certainly not going to be paying QF long haul pilots a 96 week redundancy if they refuse to be vaccinated.

Airline pilots in Australia (both QF group and Virgin) have a very clear decision to make over the next 6-8 weeks - get vaccinated or run the very real risk that you will no longer have a job.

Pretty easy decision really.

I’m very confident that the number of pilots willing to be terminated on the basis of principle will be counted on the fingers of less than one hand.

[Colonel_Klink]

I’m very confident that the number of pilots willing to be terminated on the basis of principle will be counted on the fingers of less than one hand.

Couldn’t agree more.

Plenty of shouting from the rooftops from the usual suspects, but I would suggest that all of these ‘principled’ pilots won’t be putting their $200k airline job at risk.

[galdian]

More likely I'd expect there'll be some who are looking to "manufacture" a medical reason why they cannot partake of the vaccine.

Could be an interesting tightrope to find something that doesn't bring into question your ability to hold a Class 1 medical.

[Xeptu]

If there's any chance of opening borders at 80% vaccinated in or about DEC, which I agree that is what the federal government is implying, then we need to get some bus loads of distribution teams with vaccines on a road trip into the remote regions of the national food bowl fairly smartly, that's going to take a long time to vaccinate all those farming communities. If the virus gets in there before they are vaccinated there won't be a harvest this year or crops next year. That would be a national catastrophe. How do we make this happen, the National Party isn't what it used to be.

[Chronic Snoozer]

If there's any chance of opening borders at 80% vaccinated in or about DEC, which I agree that is what the federal government is implying, then we need to get some bus loads of distribution teams with vaccines on a road trip into the remote regions of the national food bowl fairly smartly, that's going to take a long time to vaccinate all those farming communities. If the virus gets in there before they are vaccinated there won't be a harvest this year or crops next year. That would be a national catastrophe. How do we make this happen, the National Party isn't what it used to be.

Mandate the vaccine?

[Xeptu]

Mandate the vaccine?

No need! they want the vaccine, they just can't get it, all the focus is on NSW first and even then the Cities not so much the regions, same for VIC. How long do we have to wait.

[Maggie Island]

How long do we have to wait.

No need! We have all the AZ we could want and then some!!

[SHVC]

Gladdy is mad keen on opening international to NSW at 80% vax rate. I wonder if thats her indicating NSW going their own course leaving the other states to manage travelers as they approach their borders.

[Xeptu]

No need! We have all the AZ we could want and then some!!

Well get it to us then

[JustinHeywood]

Well get it [AZ vaccine] to us then

Dont know where you are Xptu but in the NSW regions there’s virtually no waiting for an AZ.

Trouble is, many people have decided that Pfizer is the one they want and not many takers for the AZ.

There is a risk of side effects for both vaccines of course, but it’s minuscule. This hasn’t stopped people playing politics with the public’s fears and ignorance though.

[Xeptu]

Dont know where you are Xptu but in the NSW regions there’s virtually no waiting for an AZ.

Trouble is, many people have decided that Pfizer is the one they want and not many takers for the AZ.

There is a risk of side effects for both vaccines of course, but it’s minuscule. This hasn’t stopped people playing politics with the public’s fears and ignorance though.

The regions have never been ones to complain about choice, that's you city folk. AZ is fine by us, in fact it's preferred, just get scomo to get it to us like he's supposed to be doing.

[KRviator]

ZOMGORRRZZZ! We've just passed 1,000 Covid deaths (https://www.news.com.au/national/covid19-deaths-in-australia-pass-1000-as-nsw-delta-outbreak-worsens/news-story/8dae0c458bcf9e87f0b90d73ac842c4f). That's terrible! A true tragedy, horrible! We MUST do something to stop all these people DYING from Covid! Lockdown! And over there, there's children playing in the park! Police! ARREST THEM! :mad:

Meanwhile, in the Oncology ward, a Doctor sighs as he fills out the death certificate and says "That's the 5,658th lung cancer victim this year...":ugh:

[layman]

ACT 70+ year olds now at 99.45% having had their first dose ... and still going higher each day.

Supply (of an ‘acceptable’ vaccine) & our ability to deliver, would seem to be the main constraints.

Obviously not the whole story, but vaccine hesitancy may be more a very small (but noisy) minority than a real issue

[JustinHeywood]

The regions have never been ones to complain about choice, that's you city folk. AZ is fine by us, in fact it's preferred, just get scomo to get it to us like he's supposed to be doing.

I’m in the regions Xep, and most people I know are either waiting for Pfizer or ant-vax idiots anyway (NSW north coast). Pretty much anyone can get AZ - my son got it yesterday after booking in over the weekend.

[MickG0105]

Meanwhile, in the Oncology ward, a Doctor sighs as he fills out the death certificate and says "That's the 5,658th lung cancer victim this year...":ugh:
On the basis that around 4,527 of 5,658 deaths from lung cancer were likely directly related to smoking, little doubt as to what your fictitious doctor was sighing about.

[Chronic Snoozer]

ZOMGORRRZZZ! We've just passed 1,000 Covid deaths (https://www.news.com.au/national/covid19-deaths-in-australia-pass-1000-as-nsw-delta-outbreak-worsens/news-story/8dae0c458bcf9e87f0b90d73ac842c4f). That's terrible! A true tragedy, horrible! We MUST do something to stop all these people DYING from Covid! Lockdown! And over there, there's children playing in the park! Police! ARREST THEM! :mad:

Meanwhile, in the Oncology ward, a Doctor sighs as he fills out the death certificate and says "That's the 5,658th lung cancer victim this year...":ugh:

I wasn't aware lung cancer is a highly contagious virus. How long would the average lung cancer victim have been known to the medical system and how much treatment would they have received versus a COVID victim? Do lung cancer sufferers often die within 12 days? Adriana Takara (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-26/nsw-covid-victim-identified-as-adriana-midori-takara/100322722)

[KRviator]

I wasn't aware lung cancer is a highly contagious virus. How long would the average lung cancer victim have been known to the medical system and how much treatment would they have received versus a COVID victim? Do lung cancer sufferers often die within 12 days? Adriana Takara (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-26/nsw-covid-victim-identified-as-adriana-midori-takara/100322722)You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.

[Xeptu]

ACT 70+ year olds now at 99.45% having had their first dose ... and still going higher each day.

Supply (of an ‘acceptable’ vaccine) & our ability to deliver, would seem to be the main constraints.

Obviously not the whole story, but vaccine hesitancy may be more a very small (but noisy) minority than a real issue

Yes! I'll try and explain it for the benefit of our own city people. I'm double dosed AZ, the second dose was only a week ago and done the moment I was eligible. I'm based near a major community centre of about 20,000 people. Less than half of those in that centre are vaccinated, not because they don't want to be but mostly because in truth they are fence sitters, there isn't a need right now, there's no covid in the community. Now this part is the serious bit. Anyone outside of 100Km's of those centres only comes to town about once a month. Up to now they either haven't been eligible or there wasn't any or anywhere you could get it. These are by far the greater majority of the region.
Would it be fair to say that we can expect the virus to arrive in those areas around the end of the year, regardless of the borders, is that a fair call?? If that happens at harvest, it will be catastrophic for the nation and the Industry. NO FOOD If we can't get those same people into WA at harvest, very little harvest.

All I'm trying to tell you is the impending problem is bigger than tourism and travel. There is still time to fix it, but scomo better get his finger out.

[Ladloy]

ZOMGORRRZZZ! We've just passed 1,000 Covid deaths (https://www.news.com.au/national/covid19-deaths-in-australia-pass-1000-as-nsw-delta-outbreak-worsens/news-story/8dae0c458bcf9e87f0b90d73ac842c4f). That's terrible! A true tragedy, horrible! We MUST do something to stop all these people DYING from Covid! Lockdown! And over there, there's children playing in the park! Police! ARREST THEM! :mad:

Meanwhile, in the Oncology ward, a Doctor sighs as he fills out the death certificate and says "That's the 5,658th lung cancer victim this year...":ugh:
Classic whataboutism.

[43Inches]

Xeptu,

That is worrying, considering to be fully vaccinated you need at least 6 weeks from first does of Pfizer, 8 weeks given current constraints, and if AZ double that. It's important that any fence sitters are aware that is the case and that if it does arrive in their town over night they can't just vaccinate the next day and be done with it.

Harvest is going to also be a worry as a lot of city folk will be going country to help, increasing the chance of spreading it in rural communities. Hopefully someone is accounting for this in planning.

BTW I swayed two very vulnerable fence sitters by highlighting that issue of time, they are now vaxxed had no side effects apart from a sore arm and they feel safer vs the virus, so are much more relaxed about the situation.

[pithblot]

“Frustrated and at a loss to understand why a considerable and growing body of evidence in favour of the cheap, off-patent medication is being not merely ignored but actively rejected, Dr Phillip M. Altman, a veteran of the drug-testing and appraisal industry, wrote to Dr Elliott to demand “revised recommendations for the use of ivermectin within 14 days”. That letter is reproduced …”

….in the Quadrant Online article I linked to recently.


If you take the time to peruse the, 53 to date, reader responses you will see some very compelling and salient comment. I highly recommend that you do, noting in particular the first letter from Dr R L Clancy AM.


Dr Clancy writes,

Robert Clancy – 22nd August 2021

Dr Altman, Excellent letter, and outstanding support from Dr Lawrie and her colleague. I assume you have a strategy when you do not get a response.

There is no need for me to add to the evidence you summarise, other than to say that data confirming the clinical value of Ivermectin (IVM) appears on a daily basis. Yesterday the British Medical Journal asked me to review a paper showing rapid virus clearance following IVM. In normal times, given the many studies showing exactly that, the paper would be rejected on the basis that the information is not new. It will probably be rejected this time on political and ideological grounds.

As one of the senior clinical immunologists in Australia, and the only one whose research has focussed on mucosal immunology and host-parasite relationships at mucosal surfaces in man (squarely relevant to Covid-19 infection), I find the current disinformation with respect to early treatment of Covid-19 infection beyond my understanding and without precedent in 50 years of practise. The two principles on which Australia has forged the highest levels of medical practice are neglected: the rule of science, and the rule of the doctor-patient relationship.

The situation that defies logic and sense is that, on one hand, repositioned drugs with Pharma support (and patents) focussed on RNA polymerase such as Remdesivir that has failed repeated randomised controlled trials (RCT’s) yet continues to be used in our intensive care units at $4,000-$5,000 a course, while on the other, safe, cheap and effective repositioned drugs without patents that focus on changing the way cells process infectious agents, with numerous supporting RCT’s, are dismissed.

The cynicism of Merck having publicly dismissed ivermectin the day before it announced a $US300 million government grant to develop an “early treatment”, starting its “rolling registration” around the world (our TGA last week) for son-of Remdesivir, the repositioned “Molnupirivir”, as a “breakthrough” oral treatment (recently sold to the US government before its trials are completed at $1,000 per course), is not lost on anyone.

I wrote 8 months ago that the biology of Covid-19 infection dictates that while the parenteral genetic vaccines available to us will be important in short term Covid control, they will have little impact on infection, will be short in duration, and that antigen drift will create variants that will severely compromise efficacy. They will settle along influenza-vaccine lines. Moreover, genetic vaccines by stimulating uncontrolled synthesis of spike protein will cause highly concerning adverse events of a short and long-term nature that we can only surmise at this stage.

All these outcomes have come about. My point was, and is, that ivermectin and like drugs are immediately needed, not to compete with vaccines, but to complement them: to reduce community spread; to treat early disease; to reduce progression to severe disease requiring admission to hospital and possible death; and to reduce the growing community repository of “long Covid” .

Making ivermectin available across the Covid community now will shorten the current community crises where infection is out of control, will be synergistic with the vaccine programme facilitating movement through the planned stages, and greatly facilitate our reconnect with the world outside the bubble.

The question almost every experienced clinician is asking in Australia is ‘we have a problem that we are doing nothing for, one that is threatening the very fibre of our nation, and vaccines are looking a little iffy. There is a drug available for early treatment of Covid-19 with more evidence supporting its safety and efficacy than there is for most drugs I use every day. Why are we not using this drug? What on earth has my patient got to lose?’ Where is the leadership?

Dr Altman, I support your plea to those who can make decisions, based on evidence as summarised in your open letter. Lives are lost while positions are defended.

Best wishes,
Robert Clancy

‘A Total Lack of Therapeutic Perspective’ (http://quadrant.org.au/opinion/public-health/2021/08/a-total-lack-of-therapeutic-perspective/)

[Chronic Snoozer]

You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.

Errr, no. That is exactly the point. You are comparing apples with a comedy squirting flower. The government most certainly has done quite a few things about 'it' but that's by the by. But seriously, can I catch 'smoking' by walking into Bunnings?

[Xeptu]

Xeptu,

BTW I swayed two very vulnerable fence sitters by highlighting that issue of time,

I was in an office in the centre only yesterday preaching that very argument, they were young people so it's only just become available to them, but clearly hesitant all the same. I impressed upon them that it'll still take a few weeks for the vaccine to do its thing. Don't leave it till it's too late, look what's happening in Sydney, don't think that can't happen here.

[43Inches]

You've missed the point. Lung cancer, as MickG rightly points out, is mostly (90% male, 65% female according to the Cancer Council) caused by voluntary smoking. And Governments of all persuasions, do sweet FA about it - and it sure as hell doesn't rate a mention in the papers the way Covid is racking up column inches. It's just..."accepted", as part of everyday life.

Ok, so the ridiculous price of cigarettes, confronting pictures on packets, plain packaging, bans of smoking in almost all public areas and venues now as well as bans on smoking around kids etc etc is the gov doing nothing.... I was a smoker many years ago, I quit because it became too hard due to the restrictions and cost, as well as being dumb for my health. You also increase a number of premiums and some doctors may defer surgery on you if you smoke, how many forms do you fill out regarding health that refer to smoking status, why, because many things recognise it's bad for you.

[Lead Balloon]

Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says a world where States and Territories stay at “zero COVID forever” is “unrealistic”, and warns States not to expect the same level of financial support for lockdowns enforced after 80 per cent of the population was vaccinated.
…
“When is it that businesses can reopen, when is that the kids can go back to school, when is it that when we can attend the funeral is on the weddings of loved ones, when is it that we can move more freely in our own country?”

He warned States that continued to use lockdowns and border closures after 80 per cent of the population was vaccinated should not expect the same level of financial support from the Morrison Government.

“I wouldn’t use that term sanctions but what I would say is that I’ve made it very clear that there should be no expectation on behalf of the premiers and the chief ministers that our emergency economic support will continue at the scale that it is currently when we reach the 70 to 80 per cent targets,” he said.
…That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

[Xeptu]

Xeptu,

Harvest is going to also be a worry as a lot of city folk will be going country to help

Help!! really we couldn't get them to come out and pick fruit. Unless you know your way around a heavy vehicle, preferably a multi combination or know how to track a line in a header, they might as well stay home out of the way, completely useless.

All I'm seeing at the moment is NSW in deep crisis by NOV and if they can't get a few thousand tiny bottles with a few nurses to use them out here, what chance do we have of getting a couple of thousand farmers into an ICU in the capital city.

[Xeptu]

That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

Sounds to me like he just lost the election.

[ExtraShot]

That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?

The biggest problem with the Feds doing that is it’s people like us, aircrew that are currently finding federal support payments very useful, that will suffer if the support is removed.

McGowan, Marshal, Palachook et al along with Morrison and co haven’t lost a cent, and they’ll continue to collect full freight throughout. They states will point the finger at the feds and say, “see, they’re taking away your assistance”… they’ll argue back and forth until the federal election while many more of us lose houses cars and all the rest, and neither Side will give a stuff how many of us get hurt.

[SOPS]

Listening to some nurses from NSW, just now being interviewed on the ABC radio, it sounds like the entire NSW public health system is close to collapse.

If that is true, you can forget any state borders opening anytime soon.

[Lead Balloon]

The biggest problem with the Feds doing that is it’s people like us, aircrew that are currently finding federal support payments very useful, that will suffer if the support is removed.

McGowan, Marshal, Palachook et al along with Morrison and co haven’t lost a cent, and they’ll continue to collect full freight throughout. They states will point the finger at the feds and say, “see, they’re taking away your assistance”… they’ll argue back and forth until the federal election while many more of us lose houses cars and all the rest, and neither Side will give a stuff how many of us get hurt.
Never fear. The states will take the hint from Josh from Accounts. That's how the power of the vertical fiscal imbalance works.

[JustinHeywood]

Dr Clancy writes…Why are we not using this drug [Ivermectin]?


Always dangerous for amateurs like most of us to focus on the outlier academics who support our personal views.

The fact that the vast majority of specialists in the field favour a vaccine
and discount or dismiss the utility of Ivermectin should be enough for those of us who are, at best, interested observers.
There is plenty of articles opposing professor Clancy’s viewpoint, and his own university says he is speaking beyond his field of expertise.

This doesn’t mean he is wrong necessarily, but there’s no way the average person can make a judgement.

[Icarus2001]

ABC radio, it sounds like the entire NSW public health system is close to collapse.
Come on big guy, I know you have been around long enough to know the rules. For the ABC anything in a Liberal state is a total disaster and anything in a Labor state is well handled. Then simply seek out an overworked employee or a sympathetic expert to confirm your headline. Simples.
Can we remember that Covid is a flu with a 98.2% survival rate please.

[dr dre]

The fact that the vast majority of specialists in the field favour a vaccine
and discount or dismiss the utility of Ivermectin should be enough for those of us who are, at best, interested observers.

Here’s the US FDA’s take on it:

You are not a horse. You are not a cow. Seriously, y'all. Stop it.

There is plenty of articles opposing professor Clancy’s viewpoint, and his own university says he is speaking beyond his field of expertise.

This doesn’t mean he is wrong necessarily, but there’s no way the average person can make a judgement.

Robert Clancy is even more irrelevant than that, he retired 8 years ago, Newcastle University hasn’t funded his research for 12 years and he himself hasn’t commented on the numerous studies showing the worthlessness and dangerousness of Ivermectin since the start of the year.

If anyone wants to take livestock dewormer as treatment and forego a vaccine go ahead, but your fate will be similar to this:

A police captain who refused the vaccine and took the anti-parasitic ivermectin to combat COVID-19 dies from the virus (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/georgia-anti-vaxx-cop-took-ivermectin-dies-of-covid-19-2021-8?r=US&IR=T)

[ExtraShot]

I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchocerciasis/treatment.html


Yes, I realise the blurb says '...to treat covid-19', but it seems they're trying to spin a narrative by trying to frame it as 'not for human consumption'. Plenty of substances used for odd purposes are remade and repurposed as medicine for humans. Its a real shame that ivermectin has been proven not to be effective for Covid 19 because its cheap and easily made. We aren't getting out of this Covid mess without anti-virals in addition to vaccines, so I'd hope to see some come to the fore soon. Maybe PharmAust with their Monepantel (https://pharmaust.com/monepantel-anti-covid-19-activity-confirmed/) (wait, that's sheep drench, tsk, tsk)... or whatever Pfizer (https://www.pfizer.com/science/coronavirus/antiviral-efforts) is working on.

[dr dre]

I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.


Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic. River blindness is a disease caused by parasites. Covid isn’t.

The reason the FDA is giving these warnings is people are going into livestock stores in the US and are panic buying Ivermectin (https://www.newsweek.com/not-humans-store-says-shoppers-wanting-ivermectin-must-prove-they-have-horse-1624384) meant for Horse or Cow deworming as a treatment or prophylactic for Covid.

Where do people get this idea that Ivermectin will help them?:

How the right’s ivermectin conspiracy theories led to people buying horse dewormer (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/24/how-rights-ivermectin-conspiracy-theories-led-people-buying-horse-dewormer/)

And in case you think it’s an “only in America” thing.....:

Sky News Australia deletes dozens of videos promoting unproven Covid treatments (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/aug/10/sky-news-australia-deletes-dozens-of-videos-promoting-unproven-covid-treatments)

[43Inches]

There was anecdotal evidence Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine had done some good in India. However if you look at the amount of different drugs they pumped into patients in the early stages it's very difficult to say which if any were doing anything, and how much was just early intervention in any case. Both were proven to have little effect, if any at all past mild onset relief. The kicker is that India completely about faced 2 months ago and removed both from the treatment list completely, and from the look of it, it hasn't made much difference since, so either they were doing nothing or doctors are continuing to use them against recommended procedure.

I think someone may have already posted that a key instigator of the use of Ivermectim in the USA died of covid not long ago. There's been a few of these key anti vaccine, covid is just a flu types get killed by covid recently in the US, a lot of folks there poking fun at them, so the FDA line is not out of line with that.

[machtuk]

Come on big guy, I know you have been around long enough to know the rules. For the ABC anything in a Liberal state is a total disaster and anything in a Labor state is well handled. Then simply seek out an overworked employee or a sympathetic expert to confirm your headline. Simples.
Can we remember that Covid is a flu with a 98.2% survival rate please.

Spot on! The grubby corrupt Govt will do anything to bolster their tyranny! The ABC are the biggest pack of biased grubs out there!

[DirectAnywhere]

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/31/morrison-admits-states-at-different-points-in-reopening-journey-but-must-reach-same-destination

Looks like Morrison has given up on a timely, uniform opening of state borders. Polling on the issue must be looking dire as it’s the only thing the man responds to.

[JJ 789]

I don't vouch for Ivermectin as a treatment for covid (just get vaccinated FFS), but for a government body like the FDA to write off a drug that has safely treated river blindness in Africa for 20 odd years, as merely a treatment that only horses and cows should be given is complete stupidity.

https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/onchocerciasis/treatment.html


Yes, I realise the blurb says '...to treat covid-19', but it seems they're trying to spin a narrative by trying to frame it as 'not for human consumption'. Plenty of substances used for odd purposes are remade and repurposed as medicine for humans. Its a real shame that ivermectin has been proven not to be effective for Covid 19 because its cheap and easily made. We aren't getting out of this Covid mess without anti-virals in addition to vaccines, so I'd hope to see some come to the fore soon. Maybe PharmAust with their Monepantel (https://pharmaust.com/monepantel-anti-covid-19-activity-confirmed/) (wait, that's sheep drench, tsk, tsk)... or whatever Pfizer (https://www.pfizer.com/science/coronavirus/antiviral-efforts) is working on.

Hopefully Monepantel can prove more effective as a safe, low toxicity antiviral... We need something, especially if a vaccine resistant variant rears its ugly head!

[43Inches]

Here's a good little local perspective of Covid running through Galveston County in Texas. Things to note are the numbers regarding deaths and ICU admissions overwhelmingly un-vaccinated people.

https://www.galvnews.com/news/free/article_b15f43bc-1f16-59ed-bdf8-c9230de56e04.html

Also to note one of the GOP members there who was strongly against vaccines and mask wearing died recently as well. Ironically his last tweet before catching Covid and then quickly ending up in hospital was anti mask/vaccine related.

Then there's Caleb Wallace, very vocal anti masker....

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/569921-texas-anti-mask-movement-leader-dies-of-covid-19

I think the moral here is if you are an anti-vaxxer or anti-masker, don't die of covid, it will be really embarrassing for you....

[Tucknroll]

Come on big guy, I know you have been around long enough to know the rules. For the ABC anything in a Liberal state is a total disaster and anything in a Labor state is well handled. Then simply seek out an overworked employee or a sympathetic expert to confirm your headline. Simples.
Can we remember that Covid is a flu with a 98.2% survival rate please.

It’s not a flu mate. And it’s not just an overworked employee that says the health system is at risk of collapse, it’s the AMA (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/national/hospitals-at-breaking-point-would-not-cope-with-rampant-covid-ama-says-20210709-p588d9.html)

[ExtraShot]

There's been a few of these key anti vaccine, covid is just a flu types get killed by covid recently in the US, a lot of folks there poking fun at them, so the FDA line is not out of line with that.

The FDA is a government body, they are completely out of line mocking people no matter how foolish their cause of death.

Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic. River blindness is a disease caused by parasites. Covid isn’t.

Yes, so imagine the outcome if a community in deepest Africa getting a hold of information that imparts the opinion that the white man is giving them stuff meant only for cows and horses or is somehow unsafe... Also, if people are buying ivermectin from animal suppliers, treating people like they're stupid usually works really well to convince them to change their behaviour, doesn't it?

Honestly, there must be some freaking adolescents in charge of the FDAs social media.

[Ladloy]

Spot on! The grubby corrupt Govt will do anything to bolster their tyranny! The ABC are the biggest pack of biased grubs out there!
I'm sure you think sky news, SMH, The Australian are all gold standards on unbiased media. Meanwhile not a peep from the Murdoch media about the NSW government's huge mess, but still running front page attacks on the Victorian government.

[SHVC]

The AG has fired a shot across the bow to reluctant premiers regarding border closures. Once 70% and 80% targets are reached they may have no legal grounds to keep domestic borders closed. I’m sure CP is getting his case ready again for WA. Willl McGoose purposely slow And already slow roll out in WA and Anna stay away whom is in hiding from her CHO go even slower.

[De_flieger]

The FDA is a government body, they are completely out of line mocking people no matter how foolish their cause of death.

Yes, so imagine the outcome if a community in deepest Africa getting a hold of information that imparts the opinion that the white man is giving them stuff meant only for cows and horses or is somehow unsafe... Also, if people are buying ivermectin from animal suppliers, treating people like they're stupid usually works really well to convince them to change their behaviour, doesn't it?

Honestly, there must be some freaking adolescents in charge of the FDAs social media.
You've mis-read, they're not. The FDA is warning people not to take livestock medication, not mocking anyone. Other people on social media are mocking those who are buying drugs from farm suppliers, then dying because they refuse to trust the doctors. There is a never-ending stream of social media posts following a very similar pattern, it goes roughly like this:

- posting memes about how vaccine mandates are bad and covid is a lefty hoax or only affects the elderly and infirm, but they are young and healthy so they can choose their own risks, or how if you have your vaccine why should you care if they have theirs or calling people who get vaccinated sheep who submit to government control, or that they would rather get covid than submit to government tyranny.

- explaining how they've got covid, but it's only minor and they'll be back out soon.

- pleading for prayers before they go on a ventilator.

- dead. Usually with a GoFundMe to cover funeral expenses or to help look after the children they've left behind. Sometimes they're in their 30s, sometimes 40s, they all assumed that it would be someone else that died.

People who get affected by covid, deserve treatment, help and sympathy. People who have spent months and months explaining how hospitals and doctors are all in it for the money, and mocking and undermining public health measures to prevent the spread of disease, loudly and publicly calling those people who take vaccines sheep and cowards, before pleading for prayers in a hospital bed then dying of a disease they refused to protect themself against, when it keeps happening over and over and over again...No sympathy. And I understand why people are mocking them. I feel bad for their children growing up without a parent, but maybe those children will learn that even if you think covid is a lefty hoax, covid is a virus that doesn't care about your political leanings.

[RodH]

How about this for utter hypocrisy by the Qld. Premier.

The story below is an excerpt from the ABC news web site and it appears that again there are different rules for sports people and VIP's. and they are coming from a hot spot in Sydney

"The play in question is the NRL jetting in about 100 league officials, players' wives, girlfriends and children into Brisbane from the COVID-19 hotspot of Sydney. "

The Qld. Govt has sanctioned this little visit.

How can our citizens be told to take things seriously and how important it is to maintain social distancing etc. and that these rules are vital if we are to beat this Pandemic when things like this happen. The Premier even states that she is very concerned about " border hopping " that puts Queenslanders at risk!!! and yet this happens.

It really makes a mockery out of the whole Covid thing.

It just goes to show where our Qld Premiers priorities are and it's not for upholding the rules that the rest of us have to obey!!!!

Disgraceful.

[43Inches]

It is a very bad look for both QLD and WA allowing sports events with interstate teams and support staff to go ahead when there is so much issue around travel even for compassionate grounds.

The only mitigating factor is those sports are footing the bill for quarantine and such. If they are not and the state govs are also funding them to play in those states then the electorate should take them to task. I'm not a resident of either state so have no say in their politics, it's up to the locals to decide if that's appropriate for them.

[SHVC]

How about this for utter hypocrisy by the Qld. Premier.

The story below is an excerpt from the ABC news web site and it appears that again there are different rules for sports people and VIP's. and they are coming from a hot spot in Sydney

"The play in question is the NRL jetting in about 100 league officials, players' wives, girlfriends and children into Brisbane from the COVID-19 hotspot of Sydney. "

The Qld. Govt has sanctioned this little visit.

How can our citizens be told to take things seriously and how important it is to maintain social distancing etc. and that these rules are vital if we are to beat this Pandemic when things like this happen. The Premier even states that she is very concerned about " border hopping " that puts Queenslanders at risk!!! and yet this happens.

It really makes a mockery out of the whole Covid thing.

It just goes to show where our Qld Premiers priorities are and it's not for upholding the rules that the rest of us have to obey!!!!

Disgraceful.

Are you surprised? just look at WA same thing with the AFL leaps and bounds for a sporting event, pushed to the back of the que if you're an Aussie trying to return home or worse a resident wanting to leave and return to NSW for urgent funeral, which in my opinion would trump any celebrity or sporting code that needs to be played.
Netflix canceled a major production that was to be filmed in Australia, the difficult border logistics, constant juggling of border arrangements along with constantly changing worker permits. A Russel Crowe production was shut down yesterday also due to a "positive"case. one thing Hollywood hates is loosing money and thats what is happening now when they come to Australia. I am happy that this is happening as Australia's attraction has waned in recent months due to a low rate of vaccination, the arrival of the more infectious COVID-19 delta variant and a sprawl of localized logistical complications. Pull your finger out Premiers.

[43Inches]

A Russel Crowe production was shut down yesterday also due to a "positive"case. one thing Hollywood hates is loosing money and thats what is happening now when they come to Australia.

Nothing new, a lot of filming of series in the US was put on hold and some still on hold due to covid concerns, hence why I've caught up with most of my netflix streams. There was a number of shoots moved to Australia because it was considered safe, the idiot brigade have ensured that's probably no more.

[MickG0105]

That looks suspiciously like the Commonwealth government using the vertical fiscal imbalance to bring pressure to bear on the states to behave in the way the Commonwealth wants. Who knew the Commonwealth had powers beyond those listed in s 51 of the Constitution...

Thoughts, Mick?
I would have thought it manifestly self-evident. If the Commonwealth had a power beyond those listed in s 51 to ensure that the states complied, they would exercise that power and you would see compliance. That's not happening. Draw your own conclusions.

[ExtraShot]

You've mis-read, they're not. The FDA is warning people not to take livestock medication, not mocking anyone. Other people on social media are mocking those who are buying drugs from farm suppliers, then dying because they refuse to trust the doctors. There is a never-ending stream of social media posts following a very similar pattern, it goes roughly like this:

- posting memes about how vaccine mandates are bad and covid is a lefty hoax or only affects the elderly and infirm, but they are young and healthy so they can choose their own risks, or how if you have your vaccine why should you care if they have theirs or calling people who get vaccinated sheep who submit to government control, or that they would rather get covid than submit to government tyranny.

- explaining how they've got covid, but it's only minor and they'll be back out soon.

- pleading for prayers before they go on a ventilator.

- dead. Usually with a GoFundMe to cover funeral expenses or to help look after the children they've left behind. Sometimes they're in their 30s, sometimes 40s, they all assumed that it would be someone else that died.

People who get affected by covid, deserve treatment, help and sympathy. People who have spent months and months explaining how hospitals and doctors are all in it for the money, and mocking and undermining public health measures to prevent the spread of disease, loudly and publicly calling those people who take vaccines sheep and cowards, before pleading for prayers in a hospital bed then dying of a disease they refused to protect themself against, when it keeps happening over and over and over again...No sympathy. And I understand why people are mocking them. I feel bad for their children growing up without a parent, but maybe those children will learn that even if you think covid is a lefty hoax, covid is a virus that doesn't care about your political leanings.


Nope. Didn’t misread at all. Saying ‘you are not a horse, you are not a cow’ in a headline is condescending and an attempt at mocking those who seek what they believe is alternative treatment. That is NOT a government body’s role, and I believe Would generally have the opposite effect on many, driving them further away.

Most of the people who the FDA are trying to speak with those posts wouldn’t read, or believe that information anyhow so it seems it could be more of an attempt to galvanize opinion against those types and stop more people joining them if anything.

You can’t force needles in the arms of people to get vaccinated, many of the people seeking ivermectin probably aren’t the ones who think Covid is a hoax anyway as they’re actually seeking something for it. An honest evidence backed campaign that uses respect and repetition, along with practical encouragement such as what qantas is attempting will be most likely to change their minds.

[43Inches]

Saying ‘you are not a horse, you are not a cow’ in a headline is condescending and an attempt at mocking those who seek what they believe is alternative treatment.

Taking another countries problems out of context is why you are struggling with it's meaning. A few lost individuals have 'heard' Ivermectin can cure Covid and can't get prescribed it as they don't have worms, instead they turn to black market sales of horse and cow versions of the drug. Which are much larger doses and contain other ingredients not suitable for human consumption, they are then getting sick or dying because of this. The FDA is not mocking them in that statement, it is not mocking the dead or dying, it is making a clear statement that those drugs are not for humans, especially if you read the material on the site. I'm pretty sure the message is working in the US now, a few of the 'anti' protagonists have died from covid scarring the others into vaccination. As I said earlier the FDA statement is pretty much in line with sentiment and media coverage of the issue.

[ExtraShot]

Taking another countries problems out of context is why you are struggling with it's meaning. A few lost individuals have 'heard' Ivermectin can cure Covid and can't get prescribed it as they don't have worms, instead they turn to black market sales of horse and cow versions of the drug. Which are much larger doses and contain other ingredients not suitable for human consumption, they are then getting sick or dying because of this. The FDA is not mocking them in that statement, it is not mocking the dead or dying, it is making a clear statement that those drugs are not for humans, especially if you read the material on the site. I'm pretty sure the message is working in the US now, a few of the 'anti' protagonists have died from covid scarring the others into vaccination. As I said earlier the FDA statement is pretty much in line with sentiment and media coverage of the issue.


Sorry, but it absolutely is mocking them. Most people won’t read beyond the headline. It is condescending. I don’t know you struggle with that (see what you did there?). It’s a ‘deplorables’ type moment. You won’t win over people speaking to them like that.

[43Inches]

It’s a ‘deplorables’ type moment. You won’t win over people speaking to them like that.

With that comment you just lost your credibility and obviously trying to make this political, poorly.

It's also not a headline, it's a tweet. Twitter is quite clearly aimed at those already listening to the FDA, not trying to win over crackpots who won't listen anyway. Again you are taking something out of context and getting offended by it, showing some personal investment in the anti idea.

If you want respect from mainstream society and not be treated like a joke, don't act like one in the first place. Govs don't reason with extremists, they just deal with them by ignoring them, mocking them or education programs, arguing with someone that's nuts never works. If you think someone is going to apply reasonable conversation when the opposition starts from an irrational point of view, well you might be kidding yourself. They get air time from media as they attract attention with their far out views, but even the media showing them often mocks them to the face with the tone of interview.

[ExtraShot]

With that comment you just lost your credibility and obviously trying to make this political, poorly.

It's also not a headline, it's a tweet. Twitter is quite clearly aimed at those already listening to the FDA, not trying to win over crackpots who won't listen anyway. Again you are taking something out of context and getting offended by it, showing some personal investment in the anti idea.

If you want respect from mainstream society and not be treated like a joke, don't act like one in the first place. Govs don't reason with extremists, they just deal with them by ignoring them, mocking them or education programs, arguing with someone that's nuts never works. If you think someone is going to apply reasonable conversation when the opposition starts from an irrational point of view, well you might be kidding yourself. They get air time from media as they attract attention with their far out views, but even the media showing them often mocks them to the face with the tone of interview.

Oh please. That comparison is absolutely valid. Hillary only needed a small percentage of those ‘deplorable s’ and things would have been very different. You don’t need all the anti vax extremists, that’s not realistic. You just want as many as you can, but you aren’t getting most of them past the headline of it starts out by giving them $h&t. Besides, The political comparison was already made above. It’s no secret that ivermectin is a favorite topic among many on the right.

I’ve implied repeatedly you’re going to struggle to get those people to change their minds, but if you want to win any of them over, use Honey, not vinegar.

It is not the government’s place to use people’s taxes mock any of their citizens.

[43Inches]

Look up the Herman Cain Award if you want to see proper mockery of the dead.'The Herman Cain Freedom Award'.

Qualifications for nomination:

Public declaration of one's anti-mask, anti-vaxx, or Covid-hoax views.

Admission to hospital for Covid.


Qualifications for award:

Award is granted upon the nominee's release from their Earthly shackles.


This is normal behaviour in the US for this type of thing, the FDA comment is not even close to mocking the dead.

[ExtraShot]

Look up the Herman Cain Award if you want to see proper mockery of the dead.


This is normal behaviour in the US for this type of thing, the FDA comment is not even close to mocking the dead.

Indeed. Both completely inappropriate IMO…

[43Inches]

Regardless, the tweet is one of the highest rated tweets made by the FDA recently with over 110,000 likes and 70,000 retweets, 50% higher than their news that Pfizer was approved in the US. Is the wit appropriate? well that's personal. Did it get the message circulating? a resounding yes in FDA terms, therefore was it successful use of FDA resources, most definitely. Will a few people feel stupid and alienated, yes they will. Will a lot stay away from taking horse drugs to treat covid, most certainly yes. So did tax payers get bang for their buck, most certainly yes as the message was spread quickly and effectively.