BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Harry palmer]

Any word or rumour of when DEP may reopen? Posted on ppjn a shortage of people on the Airbus fleet!

[SinBin]

Shortage due to people placed disproportionately on new and running down fleets, surpluses on some fleets, shortages on others, it's being addressed internally first and with FPP cadets. After this is anybody's guess. No rumours of DEP recruitment yet.

[Nelson15]

I wouldn't imagine any before 2015 at earliest.

[NigelOnDraft]

The way things are headed you could look here:
"BA" SH T&Cs (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Vueling)

[wiggy]

Shortage due to people placed disproportionately on new and running down fleets,

Agreed

The management will tell you that overall the company is not short of pilots, so there's not a cat in h**** chance of Head Office sanctioning DEP recruitment any time soon.

NOD

That was very naughty :E...but perhaps nearer the truth than some would like to think :bored:

[BASHLH]

According to a couple of sources BA will be opening up DEP again for A320, 500hrs on type to start in Jan 2015.... Keep your eyes peeled on the recruitment website! Info from in the CRC yesterday confirmed by LC head of recruitment.

This is a fact! Please don't start the interrogation of how do you know BASHLH... It's true 2 of my mates heard it yesterday from the horses mouth & they wouldn't lie! Apparently it's not a secret so I'm happy to post here. We are very short at the mo on the Airbus, thank goodness is all I can say! This is great news for everyone, either in BA or out! :)

[wiggy]

Problem is that as far as the company is concerned overall BA is not short of pilots and is planning to move bodies from other "in surplus" fleets onto the bus to cover the shortfall. This is currently causing a certain amount of heated debate in another place and suggests to me that despite our wishes the company is not about to rush out and hire DEPs.

Current Airbus manning issues aside there's a lot going on at the moment that could have an impact on manning next year, e.g. Possible changes to Bid line (our scheduling agreement) and there's still much work to be done on the impact of the EASA FTLs so I'm not sure anyone in BA management is really in a position at the moment to predict if/when they are going to allowed to recruit. The business case has to be approved by IAG and there's no sign of that happening at the moment. What anybody heard at a management briefing session at, say, a ground training day might be wishful thinking by a BA manager.......

All that said there's obviously no harm in being prepared and it would be nice to see BA back in the market for DEPs so fingers crossed.

[BASHLH]

Wiggy, I take your comments well & don't disagree with anything you have said... Except with the CAP levels on all fleets the way they are, it doesn't take much working out to see as a company we are short! As an average across all fleets CAP is 2.5 hrs over (yes that's in the BLR's) however it's unsustainable! The company line 'Bidline is not fit for purpose' rubbish is all to do with the current pay & BLR negotiations IMVHO. I'm sure BLR's need the 21st century tweak but at the same time Bidline works great with another 50 on each status!

People reading my previous post... BA will begin interviewing in July for DEP's to start around Jan 15. A320 500 hrs on type... FACT!

I will publicly apologise if this turns out not to be true but I wouldn't have put it here in the first place if I wasn't 100% confident that this is the case! I've just got back off a trip today & my skipper said they had been talking in passing to LC on Sunday and was told to expect to be contacted ref interviews as they are on the interview team. As I've said it's going to be common knowledge soon enough anyway so I'm happy to post here as my friend said LC said it wasn't a secret!

If people don't want to take my post seriously & want a career in BA then that's no sweat off my nose... I'm genuinely trying to give my fellow colleagues in other airlines a heads up if they want to be in BA. I've told all my mates about it if they fancied giving it a crack. The last campaign in Nov 2010 was I believe closed for applications within 4/5 days as so many applied it crashed the system. At least if your looking for the application it may be just the luck you need to get in quick. Remember BA isn't for everyone & it's not the be all & end all! However I enjoy the security & hopefully the long term career prospects that BA offers.

I hope this helps, & good luck to all when it comes around!

[Callsign Kilo]

All that said there's obviously no harm in being prepared and it would be nice to see BA back in the market for DEPs so fingers crossed.

Its admirable that you are positive about the future hiring of DEPs, however I hope to God that, if it is the case, then BA get it right. It sounds like the same old uncertainty regarding DEPs exists. One department fighting their corner and another fighting against. What I'm sure LC will want to prevent is another undesirable hold pool situation. The last two recruitment drives were quite unlucky for a number of candidates who made it through selection. I'll add myself to that number. Although I'm not Bus rated and don't see myself being invited to reapply because of that fact, I do sincerely hope that any further DEP campaign is a complete success. From my experience, the guys within pilot recruitment are a good bunch and will want to ensure that this is the case.

[wiggy]

I will publicly apologise if this turns out not to be true

Don't worry about it, there's obviously something going around because I see someone (not management) has made a claim on the company forum that he/she has heard interviewing will start next month.

I know our union Posting and Promotion guys are generally pretty well informed and they are adamant that IAG will not sanction BA starting recruiting on to any fleet until every fleet is running at it's correct manning level. Maybe on the quiet the company thinks even when it's finished playing musical chairs at the end of the year it will still be short on the Airbus and there is a business case for starting an interview process this summer.

As I said, fingers crossed.

[Harry palmer]

Well said EMB145-LR.

[bex88]

A friend of mine has been force drafted or attempted force draft 5 times since the start of April.

In my view if your interested keep your eyes peeled but not sure LC or anyone else can tell you 100% until the button is pushed. It's all positive signs.

Can we send anyone who provides false information to west base car parking as a punishment :}

[wiggy]

Today's very hot rumour is interviews in July for those already A320 rated. Sorry if that's not good news for some....

[Wirbelsturm]

DEP interviews in July for start dates potentially in Jan 2015.

I'm sure everyone is aware that the troll to gain airbus rated pilots is the obvious first step as it reduces BA's training risk.

If they either don't get enough or not enough of a good enough quality then they will undoubtedly cast the net wider.

[BASHLH]

It's on our BALPA Forum page now. The interviewers have been notified... July interviews for JAN 15 start dates, 320 500hrs on type!

Glad I got this correct to begin with, but then again I knew it was true haha! :ok: Good luck to everyone applying over the next few months!:)

[737 Jockey]

I'm really interested to know how many easyJet pilots would consider leaving to join BA? Strange question you might ask.... But the older easy contracts are pretty decent, and the newer BA contract less so, 34 point pay scale etc.

Would be interested to know, contract/age/time at easy/reason to join BA.

Just for fun :ok:

Good luck!

[Dct_Mopas]

I'm with 737_Jockey,

The majority of EZY FO's are now permanently employed and reasonably happy on good salaries with a prospect of (industry wise) a quick command.

Saying that those I know are pretty much all in regional bases, why move to London? Different story entirely for LGW based guys....

Oh and to answer 737_Jockey's query: UK FO/ 29 / 4 years at EZY / not a chance I'm moving company now (asked me a year or so ago things would have been different)

[THRILLSEEKER]

Taken (sic) from the wannabes forum




I just did the Maths on the Finance, with some assumptions about time to command (ie 9 years at easyJet and 18 years at BA). These are based on Oxford's PARC Finances and exclude any tax implication of bond repayments, bonuses and differences in Interest Rates etc.

To summarise:
* There isn't much difference between BA and easyJet in the first 8 years.
* The big difference hits when you get your command at easyJet.
* In the 10 years where you are a Captain at easyJet vs SFO at BA, you accumulate 420k more in pay.
* After 30 years (which is when I would want to retire) the deficit is reduced to 200k.

For me, 1st Class Travel and Long Haul isn't such a big issue. I like my own bed and my own time zone. Likewise seniority is a big negative for me, I'd rather have weekends off when hopefully the kids are growing up than when I'm nearing retirement. Also I think the below highlights that your taking a 400k bet that BA is still around, needs Captains and the pay delta still exists in 10 years time. My preference is that I would rather have the cash in my pocket. The contract is a negative point, but one that I'm comfortable with. The regional point is a positive for me, not just within the UK but across Europe.

I also get your point about wanting to fly for BA. I agree that our generation has been brought up in an environment that people aspire to fly British Airways. Who knows if that will be the case in years to come?

So I think the easyJet MPL and the Future Pilot Program are both great initiatives. Your choice on which one is your preference does probably boil down to your Career aspirations of Long Haul vs Short Haul.

YEAR BA easyJet Deficit
1 45,425 38,750 6,675
2 50,704 38,000 19,379
3 55,982 57,006 18,355
4 63,372 70,396 11,331
5 69,707 70,396 10,642
6 72,874 70,396 13,119
7 75,513 70,396 18,236
8 65,842 70,396 13,682
9 68,171 121,005 -39,152
10 70,500 121,005 -89,656
11 72,830 121,005 -137,832
12 75,159 121,005 -183,678
13 77,488 121,005 -227,195
14 79,817 125,696 -273,074
15 82,146 125,696 -316,624
16 84,475 125,696 -357,845
17 86,805 125,696 -396,737
18 89,134 125,696 -433,299
19 131,035 125,696 -427,961
20 133,590 125,696 -420,067
21 136,146 125,696 -409,617
22 138,701 125,696 -396,612
23 141,256 125,696 -381,052
24 143,812 125,696 -362,936
25 146,367 125,696 -342,265
26 148,923 125,696 -319,039
27 151,478 125,696 -293,256
28 154,034 125,696 -264,919
29 156,589 125,696 -234,026
30 159,145 125,696 -200,578


Notes:
Payscales are based on pilotjobsnetworks and Future Pilot Program Presentation.
BA Drops at year 8 after the bond is repaid
For easyJet I assume 600 sectors per year (ie 150 working days, 4 sectors per day)
I include the current loyalty bonuses for easyJet ie 5, 10, 15 salary.
For BA, I assume a linear progression from paypoint 1 to paypoint 34.





A friend who is a SH FO LHR who has been with BA for 5 years thinks it will be 10-12 years from now till he will get his SH command!


Yikes

[Harry palmer]

Not forgetting guys at Monarch, Thomas Cook and people out in the Middle East that may want to return home. I very much hope there is a need for non rated experienced people soon too.

[NigelOnDraft]

Plastic78

Not trying to discourage you - you've thought it through and your reasons make sense if all stays "as is".

I would just check the master plan has included the possibility of:

EASA FTLs making "commuting" even in LH impractical
BA, maybe via a FRMS, making commuting "difficult" (maybe due 1 above)
BA SH being killed off / outsourced / made intolerable
BA LGW ditto
CRA moving on from 65
You will join BA as ~#4000, with little planned recruitment after you - this DEP recruitment is a "panic" measure to a current crisis. Not only is there a very long queue of SH (S)FOs awaiting LH ahead of you, if either 3 or 4 become fact (some would say they will imminently, others will say they are already fact), then SH Capts will also join the queue for LH RHS.

It is no secret that various industrial negotiations are on-going, largely but not entirely targeted at SH. Apply by all means, but keep your ears and eyes very wide open, and delay as far as possible burning your current situation.

[Hotel Mode]

Not sure about those Easy V BA salary figures, they seem considerably light for BA. They certainly don't include allowances or the FPA payment which could be considered part of basic these days. Roughly 20k PA down for a mid range long haul FO. Is it based on short haul pay scales? That's not a realistic profile in BA.

[bigjarv]

Well would someone be able to give us the Ba pay scale and outline the extras? I got some planning to do!!!

[EpsilonVaz]

Easy also has:


5% annual bonus on basic after 3 years
10% annual bonus on basic after 5 years
15% annual bonus on basic after 10 years


I think that will push up the easy earnings a fair bit (not to mention the other bonuses and share awards).


I know where my better half wants me to stay.

[EllanVannin]

Sorry, but I too don't agree with the maths suggested. I took the plunge and left easyjet to join BA, and so am privy to the finer details of the pay scales of both outfits.

In addition to what has been mentioned already, there is a duty pay per hour away from base at BA. This is not fully taxable and results in roughly 500-800 pounds a month extra in take home pay (generally more on long haul than short haul).

My father in law is an experienced treasurer and chartered accountant. Prior to joining BA he crunched all the numbers for me (basic pay, fixed allowances, duty pay, bonuses, varying tax rates for different pay types, 34 point pay scale, higher pay for long haul vs short haul at BA, pension tax breaks etc etc), assuming a command at easyjet at circa 5 years, and BA at 25 years. This was based on DEP pay scales. With everything taken into account the career earnings came out very similar. Easyjet was roughly 5% ahead. That said, the current BA pension for new joiners pays in roughly 6 or 7 % more at BA than easyjet. So there's really not much in it.

Finance is only one part of the decision about whether BA is right for you. Frankly, you are not going to be on the breadline at either company. I agree with those that suggest it is not a clear cut decision these days but, if it is something that matters to you, I would say that I feel healthier and much less tired since I joined BA from easyjet. Consequently, I am much happier in my job and enjoy it more.

Horses for courses and all that.

Good luck to all those who decide to give the selection a go.

[Plastic787]

Come on NigelOnDraft I appreciate this forum is more often than not doom and gloom but are we really now suggesting that BA short haul is about to be killed off? If that's the case then I'd just have to roll with the punches and go out to the sandpit I guess, not ideal but not a personal disaster. You'll do yourself into an early grave speculating about all the negative things that could happen to you! ;)

[NigelOnDraft]

Hi Plastic

Sorry for trying to give you some advice ;)

At my point in my BA career, it's largely irrelevant. But I just fly with Airbus P2s, some of whom query their decision to join BA - and they've been in say 3 years.

BA SH is at risk of being "killed off", in BA pilot terms. Naturally not in brand terms. I suggest if you are serious about joining BA, you ask about the recent GMM and what was said about the BA SH career risks.

Whilst if either LGW or BA SH were "killed off" (e.g. wound down) I am sure BA/BALPA would try to avoid CRs, the processes followed would be in strict seniority order. A 2015 join date based on getting to BA LH for commuting / tax reasons might not be a great place to be :eek: 1500 people ahead of you in the queue for LH, and retirements running at say 10pa, is a long wait!

[101325]

Whilst I believe it is good news that BA have decided to open recruitment again for DEP (all be it type rated candidates only), I am curious as to what might happen to those of us who are still ‘on hold’ for an interview from the last round of DEP recruitment conducted in 2012? My application is still active. I do not hold an airbus rating. Thoughts?

[NigelOnDraft]

You mentioned 10 retirements/other losses per year out of a total of 4000 pilots? Are you trying to tell me BA has an attrition rate of 0.25%? Forgive me if I've missed somethingIt is in that order, albeit actual rate is hard to determine, and whether due the pilot's own choice, or "other factors" :oh: I suspect 10 is an under-estimate, but it is still tiny hence my caution over flying beyond 65 :ooh:

What might also be interesting is that there are approx as many "retirements" from P32L as there are "old f*rts" off LHS LH. Which partly accounts for the "panic" recruitment, and also might say something about life in BA as P32L - before the outcome of the WC talks, SH "business review" and round 2 of the SH bmi savings in 2015 :{

[macdo]

It is all very well number crunching how much more you might make in one airline over another, but money is not everything in life.
I've been in this industry over 20 years and I find the happiest pilots are those that have good t&c, thats a given. But added to that, variety, choice and lifestyle play a big part in overall satisfaction. If you are looking at your whole career, working for an airline where you can change fleet, LH/SH and role is almost equally important to remuneration. For this reason, BA, while acknowledging that it is not the gold standard that it once was, is the best bet for a pilots career, IMHO.
I think it is also fairly pointless to predict who will be solvent in 25 years time, who, 25 years ago, would have predicted an industry like we have today?

[bad bear]

I doubt that many pilots have a career as long as 40 years. Given a pilot work force of 3,500 that would suggest an average retirement of approx. 90 per year. The change of retirement date from 55 to 65 and the slow down it caused should work its way through the system very soon and retirements from age alone can be expected to return to normal in the near future. Sadly there are other factors such as death in service and severe illness that claim a few every year. Some pilots do leave to pursue other careers or change airline.

Plastic787, did any pilots actually get laid off by Flybe and when are they planing to recruit?

[Callsign Kilo]

101325

In a word, nothing. I was in the last DEP hold pool and we were told that after our 18 month tenancy expired we would have to reapply and go through the entire process again. The last guys sank in the pool towards the middle of last year however, as I understand, a few Airbus guys were plucked at the turn of year for LGW. I don't see guys 'on hold' for interview being shown any preference, especially without the rating. Equally, I don't see anyone non-airbus who made it through to the pool last time round being shown any preference either.

[Harry palmer]

Any ideas on the numbers required here? Is this a small fire fight or the start of a recruitment campaign again for experienced people, rated or non rated if needed.

[Matey]

In reply to Macdo. Ts and Cs, variety, etc...sounds like a good advert for Thomson to me! Short haul 737, short,mid, longhaul on the 756 or pure longhaul on the 787. Part of the large TUI airlines group, and add to that private health, loss of licence etc and a 15% Company contribution to your pension scheme. Definitely worth considering when they recruit again.

[Mooney12]

Hi all,

Good news for some that BA looks set to open some limited DEP recruitment.

Overall however, I think BA is far from the attractive option it used to be.

BA used to hoover up fo's from EZY for example. I fail to see why you would now leave EZY to join BA. I realise it's a difficult start at Easyjet, however, if the time to command there is 5/6/7 years, it makes a lot of financial sense to stay, especially if you have a few years under your belt there.

I believe an EZY captain gets a basic pay of £93k. Added to that, sector pay + loyalty bonus, you're looking at well over £100k. With the new 34 point payscales at BA, the ridiculous time to command, the uncertainty over shorthaul.. It'll take years to earn that.

There are BMI captains taking longhaul p1 slots on the 787 etc.. No senior captains retiring, the CRA of 65 looking set to be abolished.. A mountain of BMI fo's looking for longhaul p2 slots.. It is a real mountain to climb.

[EpsilonVaz]

As someone else also mentioned, it's not just about the money.


If you want to do longhaul for the rest of your life, BA is for you. The majority of shorthaul are trips now (so I hear), so you might aswell be doing long haul.


I like being home most nights, I'm not a parent yet but I know that this will make a huge difference when I am.

[Fursty Ferret]

If you want to do longhaul for the rest of your life, BA is for you. The majority of shorthaul are trips now (so I hear), so you might aswell be doing long haul.

Depends. I used to work for EZY (although on the Parc contract) and it was a no-brainer to move across. Very different if you have kids, I imagine, but I love finishing the day with a lazy beer and then retiring to a decent hotel in a European city. Not bothered about pay - in my third year here and earn upwards of £70k with a bit of overtime, plus guaranteed increments for the next thirty years. Anyone who says PP24 was sustainable is deluding themselves.

The Airbus fleet now has Tel Aviv, Baku, Amman, Beirut etc with a day off downroute and easy flying without the faff of jet lag.

The cabin crew are generally pretty good but there's still a weird gulf - pilots are referred to as "flight deck" or "tech crew", even by managers, and it's bloody annoying being handed the last two meal choices after the rest of the crew have cooked and eaten the others first.

Granted, there's a lot of BMI P2s, but equally a lot of them are getting on a bit. ;-)

[EpsilonVaz]

Firsty Ferret, you're right, the idea of enjoying a beer downroute does sound appealing!


I always thought that the career paths in flying are a bit back to front (SH first then LH). At the beginning of my career (which I am now, mid twenties and have been with easy for 6 years), I would have loved to do long haul, or something similar. However I know that as time moves on and the older I get, I will want to be at home more and more, and the time away might start feeling a little stale if I'm ever blessed (cursed?) with little ones running around at home.

[Northern Monkey]

The problem with easyJet is the sheer relentlessness of it. Can you imagine doing 35+ years of 5453? Long 4 sector days, day after day, rounded off with a Larnaca or something on the end? I couldn't and that's why I left. That and the hopeless roster stability - every single time I checked in or out and yep, there is the red writing of doom. Life just became impossible to plan.

In 3 years at BA I've had my roster change ONCE and that was them taking a trip off me for training! What price do you put on that? Bidline is an excellent rostering system, probably the best. We'll fight to keep it and as long as we do, that's worth the quick(ish) command I could have had, for me at least.

[Fursty Ferret]

The other point is that BA FOs are given somewhat more autonomy in how they run the operation on "their" sector than at EZY (this has changed a bit since BMI merged due to their autocratic approach to CRM).

You can do as much or as little as you want, but in general you can choose fuel, brief the crew, handle the tech log, liaise with ground staff, do all on-board PAs, autoland, park etc. Training co-pilots, management opportunities, sim stand-ins, technical roles, recruitment etc.

Briefing is easier - we don't labour our way through every waypoint on the SID but instead focus on the specific threats of the day - and most Captains are pretty easygoing.

But... (and it's a big "but")

Heathrow stinks. The crew car park is full. The buses don't run often enough. You're nearly always holding. Stands are frequently occupied, or lacking someone to turn on the guidance or position the bridge.

[peacekeeper]

Good to see people looking at more than the money here. If you became a Pilot to travel and see the places you fly then Easyjet probably isn't the best place for it. I've been at Easy for 7 years and Captain for 2 and can't imagine staying for another 35! I would seriously consider BA if I passed the selection. I think if you have even the faintest desire to join you should apply while it's open and worry about the finer detail if they offer you the job. Variety is the spice of life!

[Big Birdie]

Just to add my penneth worth. I joined BA on the 757/767. Then CHOSE to move onto the 747. Recently I CHOSE to move to the 777. The time down route has been some of the most fantastic experiences I have had. My roster is basically set in stone. I earn well over 100k. I am treated totally as an equal on the Flight Deck. My Family have enjoyed some amazing holidays with Dad as the Pilot........
On the other hand....I am just a number. Jet lag sometimes makes me an old grump.The enormity of the company can be a frustration. Staff travel can be a lottery. Command is still (LH) a long way away.
However, once the doors are closed, then the gears up......it's a pretty good place to be.
I qualify my opinion by adding that I have flown for regional and charter previously.

[SinBin]

I don't regret the move to BA from EZY LGW 3 yrs ago! (I talk from a Heathrow POV) Bidline with a bit of seniority, which on short haul rises quite quickly, means I can have a mix of tours, day trips, weekends off, roster stability, rarely a 4 sector day, never home later than 11 usually. Some short haul pilots commute globally due to the rostering system to enable this!

Short term career prospects include long haul (5 fleets currently) , junior Gatwick commands, very junior OpenSkies secondment commands, we have training co pilots too if that's your thing.

At Easyjet an A319/20 command after 5 years, great then what? Same unreliable rostering system, fatigue like no other!:ouch:

Sorry to those that bang the orange drum, but I feel my life is far and away better at BA. Most months take home recently for me is between £4-5k with overtime etc, at EZY as a SFO my average was c. £3300 on a busy month (may have changed a little since I was there).

Not sold on the pension though! Crew food is, well...crew food! The relationship between the cabin crew and flight crew is improving, although it is very disjointed and still can be dreadful some days! Hotels are great usually in city centres, my Mrs has joined me on the odd trip!

There is a big BUT to all this though! ITSU in T5 is closing! No sushi for lunch! Disaster! It's a deal breaker!:{

[ManUtd1999]

junior Gatwick commands, very junior OpenSkies secondment commands
How junior is junior?

Reasons I'd pick BA over EZY (if I was in the lucky position of being able to choose):
- Option of LH should it appeal in the future
- Training/management opportunities
- Stable rosters and bidline
- Huge variety of routes/aircraft
- A recruitment policy that doesn't involve making cadets pay 100,000 for a flexicrew contract

[Alexander de Meerkat]

There are some very interesting arguments here, and there are some good points well made on both sides. ManUtd1999 - there are plenty of opportunities at easyJet for those that want them. I would also say that roster stability is generally very good and the picture being painted by some others here is not the norm and certainly not my own experience. The reason I joined easyJet was because I thought my previous airline was about to be taken over by BA and I just did not want to work there (Heathrow, time away, time to command, 'being a number', etc). That is an entirely personal view, but I have never regretted my move to easyJet, who have been excellent to work for from my point of view. It would be very difficult, however, for me to say to a young pilot of, say, 25 years old, to stay at easyJet and not go to BA. I do not think that a lifetime on 5/3/5/4 is supportable long term, but I would also have to say that being away from home as much as you are at BA is also potentially catastrophic for married and family life. I think the financial analysis some posts back is pretty accurate - you will take some years at BA these days to get back the financial gain at easyJet, but over a career working for BA is still better financially than at easyJet. The 14.5 percent pension contribution is also incredibly attractive. As a TRE at easyJet I take home about £5500 a month (I am paying £375 into share scheme/25 percent into pension pot) plus I get a one-off 15% bonus annually plus various extra titbits here and there. Of particular note is the excellent share scheme which is about to generate £55k in cash for a £9k contribution - a good return that will probably never be repeated. Nonetheless, BA pilots are well paid and my TRE salary will not be a million miles off that of a BA SFO.

I think there is a powerful but indefinable attraction for many young people about working at BA that we can never really offer in terms of kudos. Also the potential range of flying is much better than relentless short haul. Offsetting that, our fixed-pattern roster, regional bases (if you can get one!) and very pleasant working environment with cabin crew etc is a big selling point for easyJet. That said, it is a very brave man indeed who turns down a job at BA, and in the event few people ever do. There clearly are going to be recruitment opportunities in the near future at BA and many, but not all, of those selected will come from easyJet, who are a known quantity with a guaranteed product. It does not do it for me, but for any young person it would be a massive decision to turn down the opportunity to work for the national carrier. Given that there is no bond and a BA 320 pilot can probably go anywhere he wants afterwards if he does not like it, there would seem to be little to lose and everything to gain by going there. Where the decision is less clear would be for those pilots with current commands elsewhere in their 30s and thinking of what to do with themselves in the future. I would be very wary of giving up a command at that age to go to 15 years in the RHS. It is ultimately horses for courses, and no one is right or wrong in their choice - it is just what fits in with the individual's aspirations and circumstances. There are very few people who go to BA who seem to regret it, so again that tells a story that is hard to ignore. Frankly, if you are in the fortunate position of trying to work out if you want to give up a command at easyJet to be an FO at BA, you are in a great place and many, many people would love to have those sort of choices available to them. Good luck to all those nibbling at the BA door, which appears to be standing ever so slightly ajar.

[wiggy]

I would also have to say that being away from home as much as you are at BA is also potentially catastrophic for married and family life.

Interesting observation and one that I heard from colleagues in another organisation many times just before I joined BA as a Longhauler...in reality for me and my own it wasn't a problem. From what I have seen whilst my short haul colleagues aren't always "Back Every Afternoon" ;) neither are they away from home for days on end - yes there are short haul multi-day tours but there are also day trips.

I'm sure somebody who has recent experience of BA short haul rosters will be able to give chapter and verse

[Tay Cough]

How junior is junior?

Everything is relative. You will join BA with a seniority of around about 4000. It is not likely to rise particularly quickly. While the lucky ones who beat the 55 retirement age will begin to hit 65 next year, there are only around 300 or so of them and there is another big stagnation bulge behind them. By way of example, I am a LHR SH Captain, have been a Captain for 8 years and if I were to get a LH command next year, I will be in that seat for at least 20 years (or until I get fed up).

Command seniority generally appears as follows:

LGW SH 2200
LHR SH 1900 (no significant vacancies currently)
LHR LH 1100

There is some variation in these numbers with some parties suggesting longhaul commands will move to about the 1300 level. As time goes on, that is likely to be the case as the acquired BMI LHR slots move from shorthaul to longhaul. Obviously that will be at the expense of shorthaul commands. In theory, the remaining LHR SH commands are likely to get more senior however there are some productivity changes coming which may make them less attractive to the senior LH SFOs who may just hang on for a seat swap. As things stand, there are approximately 300 pilots in that position currently.

There had previously been secondments to GSS (747-8 freighters, now defunct) and to Open Skies. To my knowledge there are literally one or two secondees to OS. Again, their current seniority is at around the 2000 level.

[SinBin]

According to the latest PnP 3006 for OS. Anyone know how many DEP vacancies?

[Flaperon75]

I would also have to say that being away from home as much as you are at BA is also potentially catastrophic for married and family life.

That sounds a bit dramatic to me. I've been with BA for 3 years now on the Airbus and average about 3 to 6 nights away a month. I could do more if I wanted, I could do less if I wanted, but this works about right for me and much as I love being woken at 6am every morning by my "darling little cherubs" at home, having the odd lazy morning down route is a bonus (and probably gives the missus a bit of a break from me too!)

(Written from my hotel bed in Rome after a couple of late night Pernonis and a lie in. Just about to head down to the Piazza in front of the Pantheon that is outside the hotel door to sup a cappuccino in the morning sun before a lunch time pick up :ok:;))

[bex88]

I am quite happy at BA but with experience would I have taken easyjet out of a airport close to home? I think I would to be fair. BA is hard at the bottom but "we have all done our time there and it gets better" says the guys who got commands in 5-6-7 years. 18-20 days work a month and generally 1 weekend off every couple of months. You feel as though you are trapped in stagnation but on the other side of the coin you have so many choices and hopefully a long career in a company that do look after you to achieve them. It's good and bad in equal measure.

My biggest worry is the short haul review. Will short haul go? I don't see how because without it the long haul won't work. It's a question of how it will change. The one thing I think that won't come as a surprise is, if or when the fur flies the current BA pilot group will take up residence in either the BOAC or BEA camp and harp on about how it's a short haul / long haul issue and nothing to do with us.

[shaftsburn]

Not rated on the Bus, but just out of interest what are the options during the Winter period at BA? Reduced salary with time off? Part-time?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Shaftsburn - voluntary unpaid leave has been offered fairly consistently over the past year or two but we have been carrying extra pilots on SH from the BMI merger, that is no longer the case - just ask the LHR crews!

I think Bex has made the most salient point. The SH review will bring about fairly significant changes. My bet is more hours at work (EASA FTLs), shorter night stops in hotels much closer to the airport and potentially the end of the current bidline rostering system (as we know it) for SH. If you're a junior BA SH pilot this will already sound very familiar..

And the biggest question mark is what IAG do next. Vueling and IB Express are growing. BA SH will only likely grow at LGW - our "cost low" base. IAG has 100 narrow body Airbus on order - and they are currently white-tailed. Any ideas where most of these A/C will end up and hence future expansion will take place......?

BA will continue to offer an attractive set of T&Cs and the lifestyle on LH will still appeal to many but changes are coming, and this is worth thinking about.

[CABUS]

I am not in BA and it is not for me however, no matter how hard you try you are going to struggle selling Easy NCL base over sipping Pina Colada's in the Maldives.

[razor27]

'Guys that have just joined on the LGW fleet are not massively happy either from what I hear.'

Really? I'm delighted with the move actually. Whilst there are frustrations and things that easyjet does a lot better it is a significant improvement overall. Most importantly I can foresee myself being here for the rest of my career without having to move to part time just to be able to cope with the fatigue levels I experienced at easy.

[Captain Spam Can]

The reason ADM takes home £5500 as a TRE as he says, he puts the max amount into the share schemes BAYE and SAYE and puts 25% of his salary into his pension....I'm guessing to stay below the £100k mark.

Just to put my '2 cents' in with an unbiased opinion, I'm an EZY SFO on an 'old contract' command coming up. It's a good life at both, at EZY (regional base) I have good roster stability vary rarely have changes and rarely get called off standby, usually work 3-4 days a week, good mix of routes from 4 sectors to long 2 sectors, good pay and bonus's, work with great people and all things going well an early command this year. However that command will be in Gatwick which i have heard is a busy base, and for some people they say the best the job is just a line captain no stress or worries, well I'm quite ambitious and it's a long time 30 plus years in the same role.

Now this is the BA thread not BA or EZY thread, I haven't worked at BA just know what I've read from here and usual 'mates' who work there. BA pay is actually better due to the duty payments from being away, okay your spending it down route that's what it's there for but putting SFO EZY against FO BA side by side it's a few hundred more at BA. At BA my friends do work very hard up to 6 on due the shortages of A320 f/os. Pension is also better at BA.

My honest opinion is life at BA short haul prob isn't as good as EZY, however overall BA is better long term let's face it if your 35 and younger, as there's more opportunity in the company to switch fleets, see the world, go into training and recruitment as an f/o, and feel proud to fly the flag.

It's horses for courses but overall BA is a legacy carrier and the terms are slightly better, and if you want to go long haul there is no comparing. If you do get into BA And EZY or You are in EZY and get into BA let's face it your in a good secure position and lucky to have that choice.

For me like for like pay isn't a factor as it works out about the same over a career, but it does come down to lifestyle and if you want to see the world and fly differnt aircraft go to BA, if you want to be home most nights and are happy short haul then it's EZY.

Btw I'm looking at BA when they recruit, it costs nothing to apply and see what's on offer, you can only make the choice if your lucky to get the job and that applies to any airline you apply for.

[SinBin]

Anyway BA are recruiting DEPs on the airbus.....:8

[Jenson Button]

Its great that BA might be taking a few DEPs. But what do you do if you don't fly Airbus huh…If you happen to fly ATPs, Boeings, ATRs, Jetstreams, Dashes or Embraers eh. If you've been flying those for the last 5 years or so and really want to move your career onwards then the future is either orange or green after buying a rating. The other alternatives are look east and not just the middle east. If anyone on here is wishfully thinking that BA might take non typed guys in the next five years I'd suggest you have plan B, because plan B is more likely. And just for information, the BA salary (or easy for that matter in the UK) over a 20 or even 30 year plan is coming up short against so many other industries. The pay in the far east, middle east and the US is superior, especially when you factor in working 1000 hours under EASA very soon. Good luck, but writing my own schedule and a better quality of life than number 4000 are more important. :E

[clearedfortaxi]

Have they opened recruitment? I cannot find the vacancy on their website.

[simples]

Jb, where is the future green after buying a rating?

[Callsign Kilo]

In the last round of recruitment, DEPs were mostly type streamed. With the 737,767 and 744 being culled off slowly; are the guys who went there most likely going to head to the bus due to their lowly seniority? Just a curious question relating to the Airbus shortage and the lengthy waiting list for LH positions.

[LastPastthePost]

I did the Maths on the EZY vs BA that is referred to on page 2.


I made it to the final stage at Waterside for the FPP, but screwed up the group exercise so didn't make the cut. I was working out if it was worth waiting for next years FPP or getting on the easyJet equivalent.

It assumes the FPP pay scale and PP34. So thats why the numbers might look a bit low for a DEP on PP24..

When I get a minute, I will work the numbers again based on the public information on pilotjobsnetwork for DEP and put them on here..

[Fursty Ferret]

DEPs will join on PP34.

[BASHLH]

The info on PPJN isn't correct! The 2013 pay figs are...

Starting DEP salary is Year 1 - £51819
Year 2 Short Haul - £53835 therefore increment of £2016 per year.
Year 2 Long Haul - £54602 therefore increment of £2783 per year.

Fixed 'Flying Pay Allowance' Short Haul (FPA every month) £581 per month.

Duty pay per hour (swipe in to swipe out) Circa £3.40 an hour.

Unite through BALPA etc have recently turned down a 2.7% pay rise so expect starting salary DEP to be Circa £53300 at least!

For April I did 18 days work (as we are short), 7 nights away (my choice), pay point 4 short haul (£57867) & took home £4500.

That's PP24... I don't have the PP34 but the starting salary will be the same, just the increments will be slightly less.... Hope this helps!

[Megaton]

DEPs will, I hope, join on PP1 of a 34 point pay scale.......

[bex88]

34pp year two = approx 4k a month. A busy month is about 4.5 after tax. That assumes you are paying in 9% of your salary to pension, loss of licence and medical insurance at about £70 a month.

There are loads of other benefits which I personally don't use such as staff travel. But importantly costa coffee in the CRC is £1.23

Oh and for June. 17 days on in three blocks of work. Mainly trips but that my choice and believe me I am about as far to the bottom as it gets. Not always this good but somehow I got a good line for June.

If you want to join us I am sure everyone will make you very welcome. Especially as part of the elite SAS crews

[fruitbat]

I'm hearing there will be 40-50 DEP's recruited in July/August for a Jan 2015 start and a further 80 DEP's recruited in 2015.

Time to get those CV's up to date...:ok:

[clearedfortaxi]

where is the job posted????

[Plastic787]

Bex88 you mean you already know what you're going to be doing in June and can plan a life accordingly?!! Jealous!! Here where I am we are left guessing until about five days before... Yet another reason I want to join BA.

[Al Murdoch]

Patience is a virtue...

[bex88]

Plastic 787. Yes I know what line of work I have been awarded for June. Because I achieved CAP (required credit hours) at the first stage of bidding I don't have to bid at stage two. To be completely true because we are so short CAP has been raised so high that providing you get 2hrs over the normal level you can't be docked pay or have your hours taken off you (it's all very complex and covers about 300 pages :eek:) If you need to bid at stage two you will know in a weeks time.

[Harry palmer]

Is that going to be 40/50 type rated for the first openings and the requirement for 80 next year opened for Non Rated experienced people?

[ManUtd1999]

Command seniority generally appears as follows:

LGW SH 2200
LHR SH 1900 (no significant vacancies currently)
LHR LH 1100

Hard to answer I know, but what's the attrition rate like? These numbers are a bit meaningless without it.

It never fails to amaze me how many people on here seem to argue about money at BA.
Starting DEP salary is Year 1 - £51819
That puts you in the top 10% of all UK taxpayers, and that's year 1. Regardless of what you can earn elsewhere, it is a more than fair salary that you can live well on. The only reason I would join/stay at EZY or others over BA would be for lifestyle, and while I'm young the only advantage EZY seems to have is regional bases. If I was older/married, I guess being home every night and a quicker command could swing it.

[no sponsor]

Based on rumour inside BA, it appeared the first 50 or so would be type rated to go the the Airbus SH fleet. Don't know about the remaining numbers for next year, however, based on the queue of eligible people wishing to escape to LH, I would suspect they are destined for SH too. Of course I could be completely wrong.

[Wirbelsturm]

The only reason I would join/stay at EZY or others over BA would be for lifestyle, and while I'm young the only advantage EZY seems to have is regional bases.

Interestingly I bumped into an old colleague of mine who is LHS for Easy a few weeks back. He was just returning from a block of '4 sector earlies' and was saying how tired he felt. I was just off on a 5 day trip, one day sector out, 2 days in resort on the beach, 1 night sector back.

Direct monetary comparison is okay but there also needs to be a workload/style balance equated to it as well. LHR short haul ops do night stop and some of the destinations are fantastic, even for a short stop. Money is broadly comparable but it hasn't stopped the migration of Easy pilots into BA short haul with the idea of moving to Long Haul which, in my opinion, is a completely different lifestyle choice.

At the moment the exodus of senior co-pilots from the Airbus to Long Haul is large leading to the requirement for DEP on the bus. Personally I cannot foresee the necessity to recruit DEP onto LH for quite some time. Aspirational bids from SH to LH for the RHS need to be fulfilled before DEP onto LH can be approved unless the board decides that either money issues or training issues become more prevalent.

All IMHO of course. :ok:

[WhyByFlier]

That puts you in the top 10% of all UK taxpayers, and that's year 1. Regardless of what you can earn elsewhere, it is a more than fair salary that you can live well on.

We also invested more financially and study wise than the bottom 98% of the population, have a far greater responsibility than the bottom 99% of the population and work disgustingly anti social hours in an unhealthy environment that gives me a dry nose, itchy tired eyes, the possibility of cataracts, a sore lower back and possible NIHL. Every time I wake up at 0300 in the morning my eyes, my heart and brain can't quite believe it. Every time I go to bed at 0100 in the morning my body clock can't quite adjust to the change. This is a serious job that requires a proper salary. It's a fair starting salary but don't expect experienced people to be grateful at it's value.

[dontforgetthecowls]

Its a really interesting debate on here, I'm going through it too albeit from a difference stance.

I applied to the Easyjet MPL last year and got resoundingly rejected. I did bounce back to be selected to join the BA Future Pilot Program. Some of the above has made me consider (depending on my allocated start date) whether I should try again at easyJet.

For me the pros (quite obvious!) and the cons (less so in some cases are) :

Pros:

Stability - BA isn't going to double its fleet over the next 10 years, but you can also bet it wont halve it! The compulsory redundancies at BA speaks very loudly.

Fleet- I'm not sure I want to do long haul permanently. For me the very best option would be Gatwick Short Haul, with the NYC A318 thrown in occasionaly. Best of both, a bit like Thomas cook. You have the choices at BA.

Training - The type rating is included in the FPP.

Prestige - I'm sure we won't admit it, but sublminaly it matters. Saying your a BA pilot/captain at pub, nightclub, dinner party or golf club is certainly a conversation starter!

Pay - The pay is good and more importantly predictable

Permanent - Your permanent from day 1, which isn't the case for most cadets and DEP these days.

Cons:


Risk - You are taking a huge risk that the current seniority and pay scale will be around in 20 years time. Remember we are talking about 2035 - 2040 here, so a lot can change. All it would take would be for BA to do a Mixed Fleet for Pilots on a LCC pay scale and your 20 years of loyal service are suddenly devalued. (At this point having earned hundreds of thousands less than a LCC) They could say the existing payscale will be run down with all promotions on new terms with a different pilot group. For those that say this will never happen, even with todays employment/union law its impossible to prevent new new groups on differnt terms joining. Look at the Cabin Crew and Openskies despute as evidence.

Financial - It wasn't that long ago that everyone at BA was asked to work "for free" because of the financial problems. Its not clear they are quite there yet in regards the deficit and profit targets.

Relations with crew - Still can't quite believe that BA asked pilots to fill in for striking crew and some actually did it. This one will take a while to get over!

Competition - Emirates has hundreds of wide bodies on order, which can't all go into Dubai. If it decided to buy its way into Heathrow or Gatwick and setup a hub, how long could BA compete given the efficiency of the fleet and other overheads?

Culture - I might be a victim of the press here, but it seems every month or so you hear about BA pilots in the press. Ie not doing ground checks properly, reading charts, sending inappropriate photos, murdering their wife, rude messages on ecam, suicide. Is this a problem at BA because the culture says your the best of the best and can get away with things? I really hope not and I appreciate that this is a tiny minority.


For those interested in the selection. I gained a lot from getting a note book, comfy chair and reading the whole of the DEP thread on here. However the main differences from it and the FPP selection (which I guess will be similar to the DEP)

1. The interview is very long, I was in there for over an hour. Expect the usual why do you want to work for BA etc. Over half of the time was competancy based questions, expect for questions on times when you did show the compentancy and when you didn't. Ie when you failed a customer.

2. The numerical / verbal reasoning didn't seem as challenging as the old ones. They were definately different as the time /question numbers stated in the DEP was different. Everyone else on the day felt the same, although we has all been screened on those at our FTO, so maybe we were already the best at them. The majority did finish the tests.

3. The aptitude tests, we only did 2. One was similar to the radar test described, the other was completely new. It was basically a capacity test, with lots of multi taskings. Think of your worse day in the office when everything is going wrong. It was based on a hybrid ECAM screen, so as qualified pilots you should be fine!

4. The group exercise(s!). One was a traditional exercise, which you would expect. The other one actually involved doing something with your hands. I won't say the exact thing but if you think of a traditional "bridge building with paper" then its not that far off.

Good luck for those going for it. If things work out we should see most of our Careers together.

[maxed-out]

Whybyflier,

You decided to go to CTC and blow a wad of cash and thus spent more than the 1% as you put it.

You agreed to easy Swiss T's and c's.

When have you ever felt fresh as a passenger after a short haul flight with a cabin pressure at 8k and the usual symptoms associated with that? So you knew what to expect. Same with the shock/ horror at being up at 3am. Really? Common....

Did you really think that you'd be sipping pink champagne while the gals swoon and drool over the young FO?

Time and money my ass. My degree took six years, been working for some time and don't come close to captains money. Moron.

[WhyByFlier]

Deleting my post because it's not relevant to the thread and debating with 'maxed-out' will be futile.

[maxed-out]

You haven't a clue have you. Have you actually worked another field or lived life beyond your brief CTC to easyJet bubble? Amazing insight there.

I only commented because you seemed unhappy( read ungrateful)!

[Blantoon]

There does seem to be quite a critical gap of anecdotal evidence that is quite impossible to fill. Easyjet pilots will readily admit that even just a few years ago their airline was a very different (read: worse) place to be. So naturally those that have left it for BA in that sort of timescale will quite rightly say their life has improved with the move.

At the same time, someone who joined BA more recently might only have experienced the low seniority, no weekends off side of the BA machine, and be disappointed.

Nobody can have experienced both the modern day easyjet and the "off the bottom" side of BA, so we're left with trying to build a picture of life at either airline with what we've heard from friends/colleagues.

[ManUtd1999]

Excellent post dontforgethtecowls. I'm in a similar position, hopefully applying to FPP this year and considering EZY. The one thing I'd add is the loan guarantee with FPP. For me this puts it head and shoulders above anything else out there. If the worst happens and you get made redundant, you're not going to lose your (parents) house. Plus you know BA must be confident re the future if they're prepared to back themselves to the tune of 80,000/cadet. EZY aren't even prepared to guarantee you a min number of hours.


Of course for DEP this isn't really relevant....

[clearedfortaxi]

This thread is BA DIRECT ENTRY PILOT...Though everyone is welcome here, please take your cadet bickering to the appropriate section.:ok:

[PENKO]

If it is your ambition to fly for BA, to fly long haul, or to fly the flag, then BA is the place to be and I wish you all the luck in applying.

Don't leave easyJet because it is such hard work. If you think five earlies are though, then crossing twelve time zones a week will definitely kill you. If you moan about all those night stops in LGW, well...you ain't seen nothing yet!

Don't leave easyJet for a better career. Career wise in BA you'll be in the same position as you are now, only 10-15 years later, flying the same short haul from the same left seat, in the same aircraft, through the same European skies. You'll be much older though.

[JB007]

Don't leave easyJet for a better career.

What a very strange comment!

[PENKO]

What a very strange comment!
Why? Care to explain? I think I very clearly made my point.

[Wirbelsturm]

Don't leave easyJet because it is such hard work. If you think five earlies are though, then crossing twelve time zones a week will definitely kill you. If you moan about all those night stops in LGW, well...you ain't seen nothing yet!

This is the classic quote of someone who has never done Long Haul. The work is very 'person' dependent, some like it (me) some find it a bit tough. Adequate provision is made down route for rest and recuperation in some fantastic hotels in some fantastic locations. The difference being that the bidding system allows you to choose your destinations thus avoiding UK-USA-Uk then UK-NRT-UK which can be a killer! EASA regs are also tightening up on these patterns as the can be fatiguing.

If you don't like night stops then don't bid for them. It will take a year or two to get to a position where you can take only day trips but it does come. As for Gatwick they don't night stop any more. Only 3 on the route structure now as I seem to remember and they are quite popular.

Don't leave easyJet for a better career.

Is an odd comment as, generally, any workforce is mobile for the prospect of improving their career paths and choices. If you want to fly the same patterns in the same aircraft to the same destinations there and back for 45 years then please enjoy. If you want variety then perhaps the Easy Jet career path is not for you.

Financial - It wasn't that long ago that everyone at BA was asked to work "for free" because of the financial problems. Its not clear they are quite there yet in regards the deficit and profit targets.

Well into the procurement of A380's, 787's and awaiting the A350. Rumours of rotating the aging 777-200 to 777X in the future. Operating profits on track to cover capital investments. Workforce expectations for 'costs flat' being maintained. (for how long is anyones guess but that goes for any company)

Culture - I might be a victim of the press here, but it seems every month or so you hear about BA pilots in the press. Ie not doing ground checks properly, reading charts, sending inappropriate photos, murdering their wife, rude messages on ecam, suicide. Is this a problem at BA because the culture says your the best of the best and can get away with things? I really hope not and I appreciate that this is a tiny minority.

4000+ pilots now, you will get a cross section of society in that despite the best efforts of HR. There is historical evidence that shows that those who want to operate outside of the law in their private lives are extremely adept at doing so and very good at hiding it.

The ground checks is a tricky one, pressure from managers to reduce turnaround times at Heathrow led to the cowl checks moving from a walkround item ( one that was already and still is done by most flight crew) to a counter signed engineering function. The engineers made a sad mistake that day.

Competition - Emirates has hundreds of wide bodies on order, which can't all go into Dubai. If it decided to buy its way into Heathrow or Gatwick and setup a hub, how long could BA compete given the efficiency of the fleet and other overheads?

Operating out of the sand pit is highly efficient for the Gulf Carriers. They call the shots, they run the slots and they supply the fuel. Once operating a 'hub' out of LHR they will be as constrained by the lunacy of the UK system at Heathrow as the rest of us. They generally won't be able to tanker return fuel into LHR and they will have to compete for slots and stands like the rest of us.

Relations with crew - Still can't quite believe that BA asked pilots to fill in for striking crew and some actually did it. This one will take a while to get over!

99% of that has disappeared. You needed to follow what was happening behind the headlines to appreciate the actions taken by some. It was not as black and white as many would have you believe. Due to that the relations between the crews and the flight crews has been on the up for a long time and I for one would say that it is a very pleasant place to work at the moment.

A long post but summed up by saying that it is always easier to stay where you feel safe and established. Changing employer in our industry is a difficult and time consuming affair. BA is definitely not for everyone but it is a great place to work despite the occasional 'wart'. All companies have them.

BA intends to grow its presence at Heathrow even if only through SH to LH slot transfer. The routes are great, the hotels are lovely, the people are (barring the occasional one or two) fantastic, well trained and competent.

Make your choice but don't only ever read one side of the story. :ok:

[Northern Monkey]

Quote:
What a very strange comment!
Why? Care to explain? I think I very clearly made my point.

Your point is, don't leave easyjet because you think BA will be a better career. (I'm guessing because you think it won't be).

JB0007 meanwhile has not interpreted your quote in the same way and has assumed a very literal meaning. "Don't leave X for a better career" taken in isolation and without the subtext would be a strange comment to make. Why would anyone not want a better career if it was on offer?

If you think five earlies are tough, then crossing twelve time zones a week will definitely kill you.

That must be why the waiting list for long haul is so short then right? Why just about everyone aspires eventually to a long haul command?

[JB007]

It's a personal thing and choice based on personal circumstance, as is this job generally, and just IMHO, BA has so much to offer a UK based pilot, at whatever stage/age, I simply wouldn't blame anyone having a very serious look at it and don't believe UK based pilots can't see that! My only comment with regards to PENKO's statement! Those I know from within, all joiners within the last few years - 1 on the B763 and 1 on the B744 - couldn't be happier.

I have a 1000 hours wide-body, and found my world-wide long haul inspiring, fun and far less tiring than any multi-sector day! Very happy to have experienced it...

As I say, it's personal and whatever drives you, be it money, lifestyle or LHS, but big picture stuff - BA is still a good choice and very best of luck to those who wish to apply.

[SinBin]

Top post Wirbelsturm, I agree with everything you say! I feel there is a little justification from those who failed or have never gone for BA selection here, as to why you shouldn't join. It's a little pants at the mo on short haul, was fine a year ago, due to numbers primarily, which is why DEP recruitment is happening! IMHO

[PENKO]

Northern Storm, thanks for pointing out how my comment re careers can be misunderstood. If I was at the start of my career and 15 years younger, I would grasp the opportunity to apply for a FO position within BA with both hands!

For an experienced captain, it is a different proposition, especially one based in one of easyJet's more exotic bases.

[fruitbat]

The DEP recruitment should be advertised in the next couple of days. Good luck

[Superpilot]

Let's hope the web server and bandwidth holds up :}

[Basil]

Saying your a BA pilot/captain at pub, nightclub, dinner party or golf club is certainly a conversation starter!
I don't; and my wife didn't at the school where she taught either.

[Narrow Runway]

"Just an aside - when it has been demonstrably shown that the likes of paedophiles and murderers can cartwheel through the BA hoops and slip through the net."

"By contrast Monarch still (as I write) do not simcheck or extend the interview past a casual chat on flying history and their motivation to join the company."

I know that my reply is off topic, but please bear with me.

I am defending BA here.

Monarch had an FO, who was jailed for 6 1/2 years in about 2006 for paedophilia and child attempted rape.

How did that interview go? What was his motivation to join Monarch? To be near his home in Northants in order to carry on his filthy predilection.

And, you wonder, how do I finish this reply? Well, I could tell you that before he fooled Monarch, he was a pilot at easyJet. And before that, a cadet at jmc Airlines, via CTC.

So, you see, not everything is as simple as it seems.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can slip through several nets.

[FANS]

The merits of BA vs EZY are right for each individual to consider. Certainly if you want to fly from a regional airfield, EZY may be a much better option.

In reality, BA will always attract more candidates than it can deal with, which must reflect that it's still one of the best options, especially for those living in the SE.

[PitchPitch]

Out of interest, will not having A levels preclude someone from being invited for assessment regardless of whether or not one may have 1500+ hours on type?

Ta!

[finncapt]

Don't know about A levels but I do remember once sitting beside a co-pilot who went to a comprehensive school.

When I told Scottish Centre of this "phenomenom" the controller replied that he, too, had been to a comprehensive school.

I let the co-pilot do the comms for the day (and the flying) whilst I sat and sulked!!

Is this derigeur for the National Airline these days!!!

I wouldn't let it stop you applying - it's the least of your worries!!!!

Don't wear brown shoes with a blue suit, as a captain once told me.

[no sponsor]

Very amusing finncapt.

[finncapt]

Basil

I'm sure we probably know each other but that is by the by.

I often wondered how it would go down in the pub (I don't play golf) if I say I'm a retired BA captain.

Oh dear we don't really have pubs here in Finland - they are places where vast quantities of alcohol are consumed and people fall over - bit like the six o'clock swill.

But these young whippersnappers wouldn't know aabout that.

Too many red wines, I better stop!!

[Peter Chube]

"de rigueur" is two words. Standards chaps!

[Juan Tugoh]

Thanks Superpilot,very helpful:yuk:

[Shaman]

... but it seems every month or so you hear about BA pilots in the press. ...

and sometimes it has nothing to do with flying!

Britons face losing homes in Cyprus to pay builders? debts | Property | News | Daily Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/property/475341/Britons-face-losing-homes-in-Cyprus-to-pay-builders-debts)

[Firestorm]

Superpilot: BA CC have always been "posh". Back in the day they were the debs who didn't get snatched up at the first coming out ball by chinless wonders from my old school. So they went on to try and snare a Nigel. It's not a bad tactic I suppose.

[Narrow Runway]

So skint, that the poor chap who is losing his Cyprus "bolt hole" seems to still be wearing his pilot shirt in retirement.

[finncapt]

NR

Nah, it hasn't got pockets!!

If you knew the chap, as I do, you wouldn't say that.

He is one of the least pretentious blokes I know.

[Narrow Runway]

FinnCapt,

Good spot!

Glad to hear he's a nice fellow. As a foreign property owner myself, I wholeheartedly agree with his sentiment that it must be extraordinarily stressful to feel so conned.

[matzpenetration]

Thread creep.......... To get back on topic, DEP recruitment will start soon for A320 rated pilots. I know it is frustrating if you have experience on a different type but market forces dictate type rated pilots as they can undertake a "short course" adapting to BA SOP's and get on line quicker thus earning money for the company. I don't agree with this policy but there it is.

As for the merits of joining BA I think your age determines whether it is a lucrative long term proposition. Under 28? It's a no brainer. Realistically, a command by your early 40's will close the financial career earnings gap to easyjet in the long term. 28-35? Then I would only choose BA for lifestyle and control rather than money. Over 35? Easyjet would be my choice, as you will earn more over the course of a career, gain command experience quickly while you still have the mental capacity to pass the course and benefit from a fixed work pattern which becomes important as you get older.

BA is still a great place to work but the gap to other airlines is closing rapidly and LHR is a tedious place to operate an Aircraft from.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Matzpenetration assuming BALPA call the company's bluff and IAG respond by farming out S/H to Vueling or what have you, what would be the point in joining a fleet that is staring potential obliteration in the face?

Yes it may well just be a great ruse to wangle a pay cut. Many operational fixes are required such as greater use of fixed links etc etc. But all of that aside, a threat still exists, albeit there are now only 6/5/whatever sounds scarier weeks to sort it.

[bex88]

if you join us bring your tin hat as you will be under constant attack. If you have a sleeping bag that would be good to because we won't have time to go home.

Unless this company changes the way it is run and gets rid of the silo mentality of top heavy departments don't worry to much about where you may get to on PP34 because the company won't even be around.

Sorry if it sounds doom and gloom but moral on the line is rock bottom. More to the point when does DEP to easy open?

[Superpilot]

It's open, and it's a contract position that is on offer, apply via PARC, if you get rejected expect zero feedback

[Superpilot]

So looking at this sensibly, BA are looking to hire between 100-150 pilots by this time next year. That's the number of pilots a loco normally hires for 10-15 new frames. If BA know what's around the corner (collapse of S/H, Spewling taking over etc), would they really go through the time and cost associated with hiring that many new pilots only to then deal with the mammoth ball-ache 3-5 years down the line? I mean, it's not like they are hiring contractors through an agency that provides pilots to The IAG group, or is it?

[bex88]

Superpilot, thanks but as frustrated as I am right now I don't think a parc contract would tempt me, but DEP SFO......I don't think any of us really believe that IAG, BA are going to pull the plug on short haul. It's the same threat which is always used. During the bmi take over it was agree to x or IAG will set bmi up as a loco out of heathrow (BA express etc etc) and all the growth will be there and you will be left to stagnate. Now it's a case of you must reduce costs, increase productivity etc etc or else IAG won't approve investment into short haul and Vueling will be the area of growth. IAG are not going to risk harming its most profitable brand which has just delivered the 4th best results in its history and is on track with its 5 year plan. All investors want more more more and IAG will be pushing BA management to deliver. In turn they are leaning on us.

I don't think you will find a single pilot who would say no, we are not prepared to agree to changes to strengthen our business. But what you will find is all of us saying we need to change how we work, improve productivity through structural changes throughout the business. Not the usual example of poor leadership of leaving the difficult tasks alone and targeting the pilot work force with a cut in terms.

Back to the thread

The only reason BA need more pilots and are opening DEP is they simply got their numbers wrong. How? I don't know but I guess it's all to do with new aircraft, delayed deliveries, delays to retirement of 767, the biggest flying program ever. I think there has been uptake of part time contracts and also a reduction in people doing overtime.

[Callsign Kilo]

The only reason BA need more pilots and are opening DEP is they simply got their numbers wrong. How? I don't know but I guess it's all to do with new aircraft, delayed deliveries, delays to retirement of 767, the biggest flying program ever. I think there has been uptake of part time contracts and also a reduction in people doing overtime.

A lot of guys in the very recently abolished DEP holding pool (we are talking less than a year here for some folk) predicted this as being the case. Because it was also the case back in 2008. I'm a firm believer that quite a few in pilot recruitment regarded it as being the case too. So another DEP campaign, more time and money. And then what? A job, a hold pool position, no job? Only Airbus pilots are good enough when in times previously it was the person not the rating that was good enough (I know the last campaign was mostly type streamed). And don't give me the training risk, shortened bridge course argument. BA transfer it's own crew from Boeing to Airbus back to Boeing regularly. Plus they still recruit military pilots with zero commercial experience plus FPP guys with diddly squat. Who really decides things in BA? People with actual operational or training experience? I doubt that. IAG want all the 'leanness' of a modern day airline but I reckon the ivory towers structure of a government owned institution still exists in places.

[bex88]

The build a bridge, suduko type recruitment is a load of tosh IMHO. Experienced guys should be a interview, quick sim and minimal conversion course. Job done

Who decides things? Accountants and the city boys saying they will take their money elsewhere if the don't get more more more I assume

[Bob Lorentz]

I wanted to at least read it, but can't find the offer. Taken down already ?

[NigelOnDraft]

Who really decides things in BA?Nobody. They are told what/when to do by Madrid :=

[FANS]

And if you don't like it, don't apply. BA won't give a stuff of your view when it always gets an oversupply.

[Juan Tugoh]

FANS is right, BA will not change until they cannot get enough suitably qualified people that can jump through the hoops that BA want. It may not be quite the holy grail that it once was, but BA are never short of applicants. Until they are short of applicants or the turn over is such that they cannot cover flights BA will not change and if you don't like it then build a career elsewhere.

[ApproachStable]

Are there any murmurings of what is expected from the SH review and when this is likely to take place?

[wiggy]

Are there any murmurings of what is expected from the SH review and when this is likely to take place?

The management are pushing for fundamental changes across all of Flight Ops at the moment. I think it's pretty much guaranteed that there are going to be significant changes in the rostering agreement (Bidline) and as far as the Short Haul review is concerned a tremendous amount of unhappiness at the management's demands/thoughts are being displayed by many Flight Crew members on the internal company forum (including some fascinating insights from those who joined BA after working for a certain LoCo). I think anyone currently thinking of moving to BA from a reasonably rewarded job with stable rosters in another outfit might want to be very thorough with their due diligence.......

We should know about the possible changes to rostering by the end of June, can't give a date for the Short Haul review......

[Al Murdoch]

"including some fascinating insights from those who joined BA after working for a certain LoCo"

What's your point?

[wiggy]

Al M.

For completeness: BA Short Haul manager grumbles (on-line) about the competition from the LoCos, clearly hinting at how IAG/BA management feel BA pilots T&C's are completely out of kilter with the likes of that enjoyed by those who work for Easyair, Ryanjet, et al.:E and therefore clearly something must be done, or else....:mad:

Unfortunately for him several of his pilots, who are former employees of Easyair, point out that at least at their previous employer they had relatively stable rosters (especially the days off), they didn't have to spend a large portion of their (often extended) working days compensating for the inefficiencies of LHR, and that at their previous airline they (and/or their former colleagues) benefited from a profit share scheme that they felt actually rewarded them for the graft they put in.

I'm not quite sure if they regretted their decision to change employer but it's certainly given everybody food for thought ...... and the manager has not compared apples with oranges since.......;)

[Al Murdoch]

I love it when a Manager has to shut his cake hole...

[no sponsor]

I'm not entirely sure he has shut up. I'd expect him to be back with more demands in perhaps a few days time after meetings to decide on which new premises need to be introduced now that the old ones were outed as a load of old cobblers.

It is interesting to read the strength of feeling among the pilot community at BA to the allegations that there is a 'gap-to-market' when there are ex-Easy and RYR folks saying they were earning more and working less with a more stable roster than those at BA, while we have to wait upwards of 18 years for a command.

I get the distinct impression this isn't going to end well.

[Al Murdoch]

Doesn't BALPA have something to say about this? Or am I being hopelessly naïve?

[FANS]

But people are still queuing to join, and the costs of the RHS (and indeed LHS) are far higher BA vs EZY for operating an identical aircraft.

The costs have to come down unfortunately, and then roster etc can be managed with more staff.

[wiggy]

But people are still queuing to join,

True

and the costs of the RHS (and indeed LHS) are far higher BA vs EZY for operating an identical aircraft

I think the argument elsewhere is whether that sort of statement is actually true, especially for the more recent joiners.....

The costs have to come down unfortunately, and then roster etc can be managed with more staff.

The suspicion is that the rosters could be managed with the current staffing levels, without stretching people and their duty/flying hours to breaking point, if management would address the inefficiencies elsewhere in the operation.......

[FANS]

BA has not gone down the route of zero hour contracts, flexi-crew, self employment status etc etc.

The flightcrew costs are indisputably higher.

The point is they always have been the highest, but the need for that and the other reasons behind that have now moved on.

[The African Dude]

There is undeniably going to be some criticism of BA from many who have not had the chance young enough, or not got through the selection, or for one reason or another would have loved the BA life but didn't get a crack at it. However, some very good points are being made here. As has been alluded to by Wiggy et. al. you are looking at gambling an awfully large part of your life in the hope that things don't end up looking like a LoCo with a hat.

If bidline goes, and if like many of my mates at BA you need to keep working something like 6/3 to make cap each month, then that wait for long haul or command can appear very long indeed. On the other hand, working for BA is "certainly a conversation starter down at the golf club" according to some of the posters in here. :rolleyes:

There is no set answer on this IMHO. What makes us happy is different for all. Apples and oranges.

[Plastic787]

Meanwhile, back on topic, the wait for recruitment to actually open goes on....

[The African Dude]

Sorry Plastic but the pros and cons of applying are a perfectly relevant topic to a thread entitled "BA Direct Entry Pilot" - particularly as you so keenly point out, there is no other news.

[Plastic787]

But not particularly relevant if recruitment isn't even open eh? Still while we wait it'll give you a chance to pull your knickers out your arse ;-)

(The comment "back on topic" was to indicate that the original post asked about a shortage of A320 Pilots at BA and potential recruitment and was clearly fishing for any further news. It wasn't meant to cause the personal offence it seems to have elicited).

[bex88]

"recruitment are working more than flat out to bring our FPPs into BA, to bring in some DEPs towards the end of this year (who will largely be going into training over the very end of 14/early 15) and to launch a significant DEP recruitment campaign for 2015. This is caused by real growth in the flying programme, and is obviously great news. The refined number is being worked on at the moment, but it’s a good number"

The latest from the horses mouth. I only post this to try and reduce the speculation.

If your at another airline have a look, the grass is greener it's just the brown patches are indifferent places

[The African Dude]

Equally so, I'd say. Either way now you know how it came across, don't you? Best of luck...

[Steff36H]

African Dude hope you are not bitter about not passing selection last time.


Speaking of hats, there is a rumour Easy are trialling some top quality hats?


If it does open up, best of luck to all.

[OnceBitten]

For those interested I'd check the BA careers page, info updated.

[billybuds]

2 days of assesment before you even get to the sim now.......jesus.

[alpha.charlie]

Seems like it's the same stuff, just split over two days instead of crammed into one. An improvement, no?

[Flying Wild]

Spread over two days which won't be consecutive? Sounds like a pain in the backside (which I'm sure you'd take if interested in applying) and a somewhat inefficient use of resources. The previous one day for experienced pilots worked last time I went. Why change it if it's not broke?

[Plastic787]

That's before mentioning the enormous ball ache it's going to be for some of us to get back to the UK for interview in the middle of a hectic 90 hour month summer schedule and having to find three days from somewhere in which to do it!

3 separate sickies? Yeah that's not gonna be at all obvious. Plus I'm at a completely crap employer where you need a sick note just for one day of absence and you have to fill in your entire leave application for the full year ahead in January. The odds of days off falling in my favour are remote, why must this be so hard!?

[StopStart]

Hilarious. If you want the job and think you're good enough to make the grade then make it happen.

BA sets the dates and sets the standards. The rest is up to you.

[ETOPS]

Here you go...

BA Careers - Direct Entry Pilots (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/directentrypilots.shtml)

Good luck everyone :ok:

[Plastic787]

StopStart as I've just demonstrated there are major factors at work outside of simply being "good enough for the job" that can throw a major spanner in the works, it's not quite as simple as making it happen. If life were that simple I'd be nowhere near this career, right now I'd be sitting poolside in Malibu on the mobile phone organising funding and getting together the cast and director for my next action motion picture blockbuster ;-)

[Widebdy]

Plastic787 the reality is this will be completely over subscribed with applicants. If a minority can't complete the process why should they care?

Personally I would prefer if BA had a chat with me for 20 minutes before sticking me in the sim for 45 minutes instead of a day of "psychobabble". However I don't see how any outsider is in a position to moan about the hoops any operator elects to setup for Pilots to jump through. Do not like the hoops or can't jump them then do not apply.

On a positive note BA in the past are very good with regards to interview schedules. If successfully achieving an invitation you will be forwarded a link with a list of dates and slot times allowing you to select which time suits you best. The joys of a proper airline:}

[Plastic787]

Yeah but to get the full benefit of that you need to be at a proper airline to start with, not one that regularly leaves it until less than a week to go until the next month when they finally deign to issue you with a roster.

I take the points though and I'm not arguing them at all. Just pointing out that running assessment centres on non consecutive days in the summer is going to make it enormously difficult for some people and possibly not just a minority.

[ExSp33db1rd]

The joys of a proper airlineA "proper" airline would keep the promises that they make to you on joining.

BA have just kicked a lot of us "oldies" out of the promise of access to rebate travel for the duration of our retirement, a bunch long retired, slowly dying off so that we will soon be out of their hair altogether, with pensions earned on salaries set many moons ago, not present day rates, so travel costs are now very significant as a result and beyond the reach of many.

( Please don't tell me that Staff Travel in retirement was always only "concessional" not "contractual", we know that, but "promises" mean nothing to them.

Be careful what you wish for. The present BA Management are a bunch of ......... ( you fill in the blanks) BOAC ( used) To Take Good Care Of You. Not any more.

[EZY_FR]

Is this new programme likely to affect the number of places available for those wishing to get in via FPP?

[wiggy]

AFAIK the DEP tranche will have no impact on FPP recruitment (i.e. it's in addition to FPP, not instead of).

Had a bit of a smile at the promise of a "industry leading roster bidding system", seeing as that's all up for grabs at the moment and at best will be less leading than it was.

Nevertheless good luck to those who apply.

[FlyingTinCans]

BA short haul without bidline is just easyjet with a different uniform & a significantly longer time to command.
And if you are 30 plus and choose the longhaul route there is a real possibility you will retire as an FO. Nothing wrong with that of course, but as an FO myself with a command spot in sight I'll take the command first then join BA as a career FO.

This post does come across as bias, but I don't work for easy and I've passed the BA selection twice before drowning both times.

Just my 2 cents

[Tourist]

Exspeedbird


Are you seriously expecting any sympathy?!


Seriously?


Your old BA pension is something todays generation will never ever have.

[wiggy]

FTC

.... if you are 30 plus and choose the longhaul route there is a real possibility......

Just to avoid any confusion AFAIK the new DEPs will not have any choosing to do now or for the foreseeable future - long haul vacancies are being filled by internal transfer. Given the seniority list, the rate of movement within the same :hmm: and the fact that the very first FPP graduates are already propping that list up any prospective new joiners must base their expectations on staying on short haul (and probably the RHS) for quite some time (think decade(s) rather than months...).

This post does come across as bias

Not to me, seems to be fair comment.

[Callsign Kilo]

Candidates who are successful at all stages of the selection process will be contacted and placed into our DEP Hold Pool until a suitable vacancy becomes available, at which time they will be offered a first officer’s position with the airline. Candidates are normally offered a maximum of 12 months in the hold pool, during which we will endeavour to match successful candidates with a vacancy.

Ahh yes, that old chestnut. Or is it a disclaimer? Been there, done that. Surely not again though? Good luck to all involved but be aware, DEP hold pools have historically been bad news. On the brighter side, the maximum of 12 months is often extended to 18 months should the requirement arise. Plus, nice people in the pilot recruitment side and the B747-400 is a lot of fun…even though it was an assessment

[binsleepen]

Wiggy,

Had a bit of a smile at the promise of a "industry leading roster bidding system", seeing as that's all up for grabs at the moment and at best will be less leading than it was.

It may be that bidline 2014 is still market leading but with a less steep seniority gradient. I.e. The most senior bidders on each list may have to help cover the work on weekends and bank holidays. As it is at the moment, it is the more senior pilots who are the ones getting force drafted as the junior filth are already working most of the unsociable days.

All

I get the feeling that the management have finally realised that they need more 320 pilots as soon as. Those of you first through all the hoops may well find yourselves being asked, How soon can you start?

Best of luck to all

Regards

[FlyingTinCans]

Just to avoid any confusion AFAIK the new DEPs will not have any choosing to do now or for the foreseeable future - long haul vacancies are being filled by internal transfer.

Just to clarify, I meant after doing your 7 or so years as an FO on short-haul you move to long haul and decide to stay long haul until a command on long haul came available rather than take a short haul command. But we both agree a very very long wait whatever path you choose, BA rarely take DEP long haul but it has happened in the past.

binsleepen
If BA are that desperate they could ring the guys that were in the last hold pool, we are still flying, we haven't developed Schizophrenia, and they still have our contact details....

[keeno]

Haven't posted in here for years...thought I'd add some advice for the aspiring DEP's...

My advice, and it is only my opinion so please hold fire on it and don't burn me at the stake just yet... join BA because it's something that you WANT to do. If money is your thing then yeah, as we know, you'll find that else in the world or perhaps with another airline that gave you free shares. Time to command? Stick with where you are now possibly?

Motivation will come in all different types and forms... and yes, they have recruited directly onto long haul, it happened last time they recruited and roughly 20/30 pilots went onto the 747... even though they weren't even rated on it. They are looking for Airbus pilots this time around though and me thinks they will go straight onto the Airbus right now...

[wiggy]

keeno

join BA because it's something that you WANT to do. If money is your thing then yeah, as we know, you'll find that else in the world or perhaps with another airline that gave you free shares. Time to command? Stick with where you are now possibly?

Funnily enough one of the managers involved in recruiting said pretty much exactly that earlier today in "another place".....(I guess there's a hint there as to one question to expect when going for interview...and how not to answer:E)

yes, they have recruited directly onto long haul

They have indeed.......as you probably know that only happens when there aren't enough pilots who meet the criteria for an internal transfer via the annual bid process, and/or if there aren't sufficient people bidding to leave short haul (yes, in the dim and distant past it used to happened....blimey, those were the days.....:ooh:).

me thinks they will go straight onto the Airbus right now...
Yep.

[keeno]

Hi Wiggy,

Haha "another place".. I like that touch ;) Whether to join BA or not will ALWAYS be a topic up for discussion, it always has been... even without the current changes in situation and the vice versa's going on between a career at easyJet or at BA. This thread always crops up at time for recruitment and as well all know it can only boil down to the individuals desire and/or preference for their own career.

They have indeed.......as you probably know that only happens when there aren't enough pilots who meet the criteria for an internal transfer via the annual bid process, and/or if there aren't sufficient people bidding to leave short haul (yes, in the dim and distant past it used to happened....blimey, those were the days.....).

I was one of them and consider myself highly fortunate to not be in the position that some of my friends are in on the Airbus right now....

Interesting times lay head and it will be genuinely interesting to see if the level of applications is as high this time around as it was back in October 2010 when the doors were last opened!

[The English Passenger]

If you have an A320 type rating the application is live now for submissions on the BA website. Just click on the link at the bottom of the DEP page....have fun.

[Daneflyer]

Okay, can't keep quiet any longer.

I was recruited onto the airbus last time round, and I for one, seriously doubt wether coming to BA was the right move for me.

Having worked both in the Middle East and in the UK before, I think I have some idea of how other airlines are to work for.

And although BA is excellent in so many ways, it lacks in so many others.

I think, as it's been said before, unless career progression is far down on your wish list for a new job, and security and stability is the only 2 things you wish for, then I wouldn't apply.

You'll join SH which is a nightmare at the moment. You'll not see LH for years, and when you finally do, you won't have a weekend off again for a decade!
And then there is the whole command issue.

Commuting even from within the UK is no longer a desirable lifestyle. I would advice people to think very carefully before considering even a short commute 2-3 hours drive..

Having said that, the flying is pretty good, although busy. There is a very shallow gradient in the FD even more so than many other airlines.

The pilots normally tend to meet up down route - just a shame that you'll forget all about that person before you see him/her again.

Good hotels down route, but layovers are getting shorter, and increased pressure on SH might mean new hotels in the future...

If I was to sum up BA, I'd say the following.
- lonely place to work
- being senior means everything, if you're not then, well...
- Getting days off for important birthdays/weddings etc, is very difficult when junior. And if you're lucky enough to get the time off, you are in risk of being force drafted, as it's happened to me this weekend.

- management do not care, if you don't like it, leave. This is obviously the same most places, but people do think BA is different, which it isn't.
One guy was recently told when asking a manager about career progression, and what the company thought about it? To which the reply was. 'Guys have already left for EK recently, so if that's what people want to do, that's what people should do' ...

What ever your decision, good luck

[keeno]

Hi Daneflyer,

You'll not see LH for years, and when you finally do, you won't have a weekend off again for a decade!

If I'm honest, as very junior pilot on one of the most senior fleets, even I'm able to get a weekend off here and there... and no, that's not from (seeded)blind lines or leave, that's from a trip line. Yes, sure, I work weekends but again this comes down to what you want for lifestyle... it suits me down to the ground to be at home during the week to see my wife (she works 9-5 in an office)... going away at the weekends is actually not too bad.

Everything else you mention though... spot on. People need to know all the facts before they apply so that they don't feel disillusioned in any way, shape or form. I know this much for sure... I wouldn't want to go back working for easyJet, it just wouldn't suit my lifestyle... and there in lies the rub.

[pile.it]

Application states A320 500hr minimum; I won't have this at the time of applying however will do by the start date of Jan '15, possibly by the sim assessment if this summer proves to be as busy as last.

Is it worth applying? Don't want to put a black mark for any future applications because "the candidate can't read the requirements". Thanks!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

pile.it, questions like yours are common, but the answer remains the same.

If you don't have the hours at the time of application, then you don't meet the requirements. If you turn up for an interview and are asked about your flying experience, and then have to tell them you don't yet have the 500 hours on A320, then how do you think that will look? Or will you lie? You will have to bring your log book .....

So, you will be awarded the black mark for precisely the reason you have acknowledged: Don't want to put a black mark for any future applications because "the candidate can't read the requirements" And deservedly so!

[WhyByFlier]

How busy can last summer have been if you haven't achieved 500 hours in a year?!?!

[Plastic787]

Stuart yes I agree but there are grey areas, Emirates will let you apply with (up to 500hrs?) less than the minimums providing you have them by the time you come to interview. BA, however, is not Emirates so I don't think it would be the same situation. Considering they have stated there will be Direct Entry next year I would be inclined to wait rather than piss them off by applying with less than the minima.

(WhyByFlier I was about to post exactly the same thing!)

[Watersidewonker]

Imagine life without bidline?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Tourist

Are you seriously expecting any sympathy?!

Your old BA pension is something todays generation will never ever have.What's that got to do with it ?

I presume that present BA staff accepted the pension - or lack of it - option that was presented to them at time of engagement ? Present staff are enjoying rebate travel facilities that I could only dream of when I joined, good luck to them, I just want what I signed up for - and worked for - too.

It's to do with trust and integrity - a word BA wouldn't even know how to spell.

Your attitude just mirrors that of the present BA management, just confirms my opinion of BA, and apparently All Who Sail In Her.

Should I be surprised ?

Goodbye.

[Chief Brody]

Ex Birdseed.

I think you've conveyed your dismay clearly over your last few posts.

It's always irritating when things promised/strongly implied don't play out like you think they will.

You have the sympathy of us 30 something's reading. But only as much sympathy as it commensurate towards a final salary pension, 5 bed leafy Surrey dwelling, new car every 4 years, 3 holidays per annum, retired at 55 former airline pilot.

Sit back, download 'Time to say goodbye' from iTunes, sink a couple of unpronounceable Scotches and think about tomorrow when you breeze into the 19th hole and in hushed tones someone says 'That's xxx, retired BA 747 Captain' accompanied by a simultaneous deferential slow nod.

Life's not so bad.

[bex88]

Retired BA skipper or not let's give him the respect he is due. Fortunate enough to fly in the glory days but does that mean his life is perfect? Probably not and who knows what challenges he may face. If your company says x and does y then we are all screwed. As pilots we need trust in our managers. I am working hard to fund investment and pensions now and in the future all being well someone will be doing the same for me.

[Tay Cough]

Depending on the outcome of the current talks about work coverage, if any changes made are significantly detrimental to Bidline, it is likely that shorthaul commands will become more junior as the senior trash choose to remain on longhaul and wait for a seat swap.

A big gamble for those joining now but it is entirely feasible that you could find yourselves senior enough for a shorthaul command but too junior for longhaul FO. Not dissimilar to the US system.

Suffice to say that without Bidline, your lifestyle control will be reduced significantly, even though it may be "industry leading" at the moment. Career progression will be slow. You'd hope the pay and pension would make up for that but you can achieve better elsewhere.

Come in by all means and you will be welcomed. Just come in with your eyes properly open.

[Widebdy]

Without that control and lifestyle that BA currently offers a quick loco command will be a better option for many.

Given the increasing time to long haul it doesn't make sense why short haul pilots will accept any further squeeze? I imagine there is guys flying short haul that would rather die fighting to protect the core systems and perks which make BA the lifestyle decision it is?

[deeceethree]

Imagine life without bidline?

Watersidewonker, I don't suppose it is surprising that your bitter view, as beaten cabin crew, brings you back here. Where does your complete lack of expertise in Bidline place you in the hierarchy?

You might be better placed posting, elsewhere, about the hurricane that is about to whirl through Eurofleet cabin crew. I think they are shortly going to get some idea of what Mixed Fleet cabin crew do for a living.

[Iver]

Just curious how long before a SH Airbus newhire could bid the LCY-JFK flying? Super senior for FOs?

[SinBin]

With most junior FO at position 3632, most junior LCY FO is around the 2800 mark, you're talking many years!

[Iver]

Cheers SinBin.

Just curious again - do these LCY pilots also fly Europe short haul out of LHR or LGW or do they just fly LCY-JFK routes? Can they mix their flying with LHR short haul?

Would be nice to get a mix of short and long haul like the departing 767 fleet...

[champair79]

A318 pilots fly the 319/320/321s out of LHR too so get a mix of SH and LH flying. The A318 flights use LGW cabin crew.

[OMDB30R]

What are the requirements and how long does it take to become SFO in BA?

[FlyingTinCans]

SFO after 4 years length of service. IIRC

[wiggy]

Just be aware that whilst that might be a nice fact to know at interview it's mainly a cosmetic promotion (no offence intended to my two/three ringed colleagues). Yes, you get the extra ring on the uniform but your job spec doesn't change (i.e. keeping the likes of me out of the dwang) and you remain in place on your fleet's "P2" seniority list.

[alpha.charlie]

Force drafted.....as in made to come in to work on your day off?!

How would it work without bidline, just a purely random roster?

[Stage5]

There are plenty of other software programmes capably of replacing bid line. The problem is, the company will choose one which benefits the pilot community the least.

The replacement is being sought.

And essentially, yes. If you pick up that phone, don't expect to open the wine.

[Tay Cough]

While the 767 is likely to around for a few more years it is planned to become a Shorthaul only fleet.

[a-ricky-town]

I am thinking of applying next year so I can be closer to the 1700 hrs as opposed to the 1000 hrs I have now. Apparently you can not reapply within a 12 month period and I guess the most experienced candidates will always be in a better position to make it through to the end.

As per what I have read in one post here in 2015 BA may be recruiting again.

If this year's selection of A320 DEP turns out to be the only one in the foreseeable future I may give it a go instead.

Anyone here knows what's more likely to happen? 2014, 2015, or both?

Many thanks in advance.

[Blighty Pilot]

I would suggest that if BA is the company you want to work for a-Ricky-town and if you meet their minimum requirements then apply as soon as possible. At 31 I wouldn't waste any time and I certainly wouldn't try and second guess their future needs!
The BA recruitment is very black and white. If you tick the right boxes by way of your minimum requirements, essay answers on your application and then the subsequent recruitment process then you'll be given a shot.

My advice to anyone looking to join a large airline would be to apply as soon as possible in order of getting on that seniority list sooner rather than later as seniority is key in the path of your future career within the large airlines.

[Jet Set Willie]

LCY 318 pilots don't fly the 321 either, so they are restricted in how much Europe flying they can do, and do very little mid haul. As a result of a small band that are LCY qualified, they are doing the trip fairly regularly.

[NigelOnDraft]

LCY 318 pilots don't fly the 321 eitherNews to me... :confused:

[SinBin]

Yes funny that? Recently did an AMM with a LCY guy, on none other than an A321.:confused:

[Tall Boy]

LCY 318 pilots don't fly the 321 either, so they are restricted in how much Europe flying they can do, and do very little mid haul. As a result of a small band that are LCY qualified, they are doing the trip fairly regularly.

Totally and completely wrong.

[Dozza2k]

No weekends off in longhaul for a decade? Total balls.

Whole complete consecutive weekends off? Quite hard, go work in an office if you want that.

I can comfortably get landing early sat or departing late Sunday evenings etc, so most of a weekend off and I am 15% off the bottom of my fleet status.

It does mean that sometimes I don't go to the 'glamour' spots but days off at home with family are more important than where I work, single friends of mine work weekends and go to nicer spots because they want to. Lots of choice in BA, and I am steadily marching up the seniority list on my fleet, slowly mind but steadily.

I also haven't met anyone on my fleet who is truly unhappy, my friends still on short haul are getting towards that though unfortunately, but FPP and recruitment hopefully will bring CAPS back down.

[FullTanks]

Dozza2K
I couldn't agree more.
As far as some other posters are concerned............
I'm quite astonished that so many aspire to work as a pilot for an airline, which by its very nature is a 24/7, 365 day a year operation, only to become fixated on whether or not they may get weekends free of duty.
Days off during the week can be very useful, especially so for those with a family. You will also need to be very circumspect when it comes to your ability to be at home for Christmas, parents' evenings, children's parties, sports days and notable birthdays etc. It's not the end of the World if you can't always be there; of course, as you progress up the seniority list you will begin to be a little more successful in bidding for specific dates, but then (like 'Snakes and Ladders') a command puts you down at the bottom again.
Enjoy the variety and spoil the family when can't always be there. If you think the lifestyle is not for you, perhaps you should seriously consider why you chose this career in the first place.

[varyamereon]

Lot's of interesting information on here! Could any of the BA FOs maybe share an example roster? I am quite interested in the kind of trips that are usual, ie. are they 1 day, 3 day, 5 day? I am trying to decide whether it makes sense for me to apply, would enjoy the night stops but it's also important for me to be at home too!


Thanks guys!

[bex88]

But it speaks volumes when your 8 year old daughter comes home from school with 1 ticket for a school event for mummy. When asked why she did not get daddy one the reply was "its at the weekend and he's never here"

It does get better with improved seniority but in 2 years a movement of 75 places.........:ugh:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EASA FTL may impact life at BA also. Commuting for long haul, mixed East - West combo's, swapping trips will need careful planning

[4468]

Jet Set Willie
LCY 318 pilots don't fly the 321 either, so they are restricted in how much Europe flying they can do, and do very little mid haul. As a result of a small band that are LCY qualified, they are doing the trip fairly regularly.

Complete and utter :mad:! Who are you?

Largely irrelevant though to anyone thinking of applying, as LCY-JFK won't be available (even for P2s) for 5-10 years after joining.

Anyone (young) thinking there is any better 'gig' than BA, anywhere in the world, should probably think again!

[Blighty Pilot]

Let's also consider a SH/LH split. Maybe in the not too distant future ;-).

SH drivers and new joiners on vastly reduced T's and C's and further selection required before getting your "new" position at BA longhaul and back at the bottom of their seniority list also with new T's and C's for new joiners.

Perhaps the new short haul airline could be called "Go" or more inventively "British Airways Shuttle".

Good luck to y'all.

[wiggy]

Gammon

Relentless management attacks...agreed on that but:

when was the last time a crew member came up to the cockpit for a chat? Offered you an espresso from first? ......Acknowledged your existence if you walk in the galley?

Er.... Last trip ( and personally I find it happens most trips).

The bizarre situation where the pilots sit at one end of the bar and your crew at the other
Very bizarre indeed, haven't seen that since the IA days. Last trip we all ( 11'ish) sat together at the bar - a long haul legacy crew on the second part of a back to back. There's no doubt some crews can be hard work but if somebody feels they are being cold shouldered on every trip maybe the problem doesn't lie with everybody else on the crew.....

Quite a high percentage of knobs and weird characters in the flight deck - very aware of their "status".
Is that based on personal observation from working in BA and if so from which side of the flight deck door?

[bex88]

You get some rubbish on here.

Last flight I did the skipper bought coffee for all of the crew and we had a chat about stuff before heading off to find our aircraft. Cabin crew bought in snacks and we all helped each other to get the job done. For 99% it's a job and what matters is lifestyle, renumeration and future prospects.

A quote from management about the short haul review "this is a BA pilot issue not a BA SH pilot issue" I doubt we are about to go the days of BEA and BOAC again. Our contracts are as British Airways pilots. That may change for new joiners after the review or if SH was to follow the route of Lufthansa with German wings and mainline.

Sit on the fence or take a chance. For what it's worth the best gig in town is the Thompson, Thomas Cook job out of Bristol

[Full Left Rudder]

I would advise anyone reading this thread, to help them decide whether or not to apply to BA, to treat many of the recent negative posts with a generous pinch of salt.

Yes, there is uncertainty at the moment because of the short haul review, bidline review etc. However, making your decision based on wild speculation from anonymous posters would be a little foolhardy. Changes will come to BA, but I don't think many level-headed people seriously believe that bidline will disappear or that there will be any drastic changes to working practices and/or Ts&Cs for BA pilots. Small and probably negative changes yes, but the BA pilot world isn't going to fall into oblivion like some on pprune would like you to believe.

[Callsign Kilo]

My advice would be apply and try all that you may in order to get an assessment, pass the assessments, wade through the hold pool and then end up with an offer.

BA isn't the airline it once was. Hell, its a different airline than the one that I applied to three years ago. But so is the industry that we work in. This is a reflection on the industry, not BA.

There'll be no shortage in candidates. The majority fall at the first hurdle. Worry if BA is right for you when someone from pilot recruitment rings you with a start date. By then you should know.

[no sponsor]

Err Gammon Flaps, we get our FPA paid every month now, regardless of if you fly or not.

[wiggy]

GF

Thanks for the further thoughts (and apologies for the grump!!),

the 400 is probably slightly less conducive to harmonious crew relations;

Fair cop, yes the layout of the 744 always made "interaction" with most of the crew and access to the fancy bev. maker a challenge....

but people need to think long and hard about joining these days - especially anyone over 30.


If prospective joiners take away one just one fact from this thread it should be that one.

Rgds.

[clearofconflict]

So is it worth applying?
Do people actually enjoy working there?
Or are we suffering from PPrune Bias?

[Al Murdoch]

"I, and everyone I know, refuse to speak to flight crew unless they speak to me. They get what they are entitled to from the tech trolley and nothing else, I NEVER go out with them down route". Quote from a Eurofleet cabin crew member that I was chatting to recently. That's what you're up against I'm afraid - these folks have long memories it seems.

[SinBin]

Yes I do! But I ignore all the **** and rumour, and have worked elsewhere, where BA comes out on top, for me! Living in the BA bubble, you forget the realities of outside sometimes. I have no regrets. What people miss with the stagnation at BA, is that although people are now going to 65, many won't retain their medicals that far! Bid line won't disappear, it will change, but is the current bid line incumbent the best solution for lifestyle or is there a better version? I put my faith in those that represent me from BALPA, and will vote accordingly.

My career at BA will be more interesting and varied over the next 28 years, than had I had stayed at EasyJet. It's not all about the money and pension, at EasyJet you'll probably by dead at 66, then what?

Thompson and Thomas Cook are struggling companies in the current airline and travel industry, and having worked for a struggling airline once before, I'd rather give that a miss thank you. There is little threat of losing one's job at BA, and we aren't about to sign onto another company that is short haul. According to management we are competitive from a cost base, other areas have the spotlight on them.

As has been said above, apply, jump through the hoops and then make the decision when the phone call comes.

I always have a pleasant time down route, yes some crew don't come out, but who cares! 'Oneteam' which is part of the review may change this, and those people who spout this rubbish of 'talking to me first' are in the minority and not worth socialising with anyway!

[wiggy]

Do people actually enjoy working there?

Personally very much yes, but I'm senior'ish on a Longhaul Fleet. Short hauler might quite understandably give you a different answer.


Al M

"these folks have long memories it seems."

Well Eurofleet are under a bit of pressure from management at the moment so needless to say I expect the gripes aimed at pilots will go on from that quarter for a while.

Across the crews there are some who will never come to terms with past events and then again others who just want to get on with life and are good company on and off the aircraft. Usually with a Long haul crew you can filter out/ignore any embittered individuals and still be left with a reasonable number to socialise with.

[SinBin]

Those with crystal balls, :rolleyes: it could all change in that time, I'd say that is length of time for long haul command, that's all some want. Command isn't the be all and end all at BA. It's not why I joined.

[go around flaps15]

I dont think Thomson are struggling to be quite frank. According to the 25 or so ex colleagues of mine that have joined recently they are actually doing quite well.

However the charter industry is fickle so I do see your point.

Someone made a point about Norwegian using the 787 out of LGW and how it might be a threat to long haul at BA. I think the 787 for Norwegian is only in LGW to get the short haul name known.

The major expansion for Norwegian will be short haul out of LGW.

I still think BA is the safest bet in town and if your under the age of 27 the best one as well.

What a pity us Boeing guys arent getting a look in this time.

[NigelOnDraft]

What a pity us Boeing guys arent getting a look in this timeAnd a good chance that will remain the case I'm afraid :{

With both "junior / SH" fleets now Airbus, stagnation, and the SH "lifestyle" I doubt BA will recruit other than onto the Airbus. Unless the supply of suitable Airbus rated pilots dries up, not sure we'd look elsewhere?

NoD

[Three Lions]

So where on earth are BA going to find a number of young A320 FOs to fill these positions?

It has to be a potential option for any FO rated on the A320 series

It does look, to the uninitiated, that DEP recruitment for BA does look likely to be SH A320 for the forseeable future

It is however positive news, hopefully for all. And if not successful at BA, hopefully then it does provide opportunities at the Airlines that have lost FOs to BA for pilots from all the career streams. The operators further down the pecking order will have to find replacement pilots to operate their own flights

Hopefully positive news for all quarters, historically a legacy carrier is usually good news for all. Best of british to all those thinking of applying and those not sure, my advice, go for it anyway see how it develops.

[Narrow Runway]

"So where on earth are BA going to find a number of young A320 FOs to fill these positions?"

easyJet, Wizz Air, Aer Lingus, Vueling, Thomas Cook.......

In answer to your question. Any of the above, but mainly easyJet.

[girlpower]

Three Lions,

The BA recruitment drive won't open up doors at the other end of the spectrum, as you say, because those doors are closed due to Cadet only recruitment from CTC.

[Narrow Runway]

John Smith,

20 years to Command in BA, 20 years to Command in TCX.

I'd have been in TCX 13 years this year if I'd have stayed and I'd be about 200 places away from my upgrade still. They just demoted skippers didn't they? Maybe about 225 away then.

BA is a better bet.

[Plastic787]

Superpilot, totally agree. I love it how people talk as if time to command is some massive issue. Ok for some people and some airlines it is. But let's face it, as a BA SFO (as it stands of course) you are hardly on the financial breadline.

[Widebdy]

Easyjet is a huge company so even if 10% are interested in BA it's enough to cover their recruitment. There will be a sizeable pot of people in easyjet who want to advance to a company which is not low cost and has potential for some variation in fleets/operation. The easyjet guys alone will be able to fill BA if nobody else applied in my opinion. I only know a few guys at easy, all under 29 and all applying. Doesn't hurt to apply and if under 30 it's financially more or less the same except BA gives you options with your life once you get a few years under your belt.

Also as mentioned before Aer Lingus closing LGW base so potentially a few airbus guys there wishing to stay in the south east.

Good news for airbus pilots but for us boeing guys I see absolutely nothing for us in Europe bar the odd vacancy at thomson where options to move between fleets are nothing like BA. Personally the fleet and lifestyle options in BA can't be beaten in Europe unless you speak German or Dutch:}

[Plastic787]

Widebdy I know it's possibly not the point that you're trying to make but, although BA will clearly take a large part of their intake from easyJet, they do like a mix and it won't be in isolation.

[Callsign Kilo]

It'll be a huge draw. When I was assessed in 2011, three out of the six in my group were from EZY. I met a girl who, on the day, had been trough the sim; she was from EZY. When I did my sim my partner was from..yeah, you guessed it. I'd say BA are pretty happy with ex easyjet guys. It is one of the biggest bus operators in Europe so numbers quantify.

I will also add that there were one or two in that group who believed they were BA pilots in waiting. Some folk still regard it as the be all and end all. You can't discard that factor, regardless of what is said here.

[Officer Kite]

Hello All,

I was just wondering what people's views are on whether BA may open DEP for the 777. Like is it a likely occurence or is it so remote for the next coming 5 or so years you wouldn't even consider preparing for it with the mass short haul recruitment planned. I'm not entirely sure on when the last time BA did this but think it was about 7 yrs ago. It would seem that future long haul crewing requirements are going to be met by guys on the A320 within BA and few if any to "outsiders" so to speak.
The site at the moment for the DEP states clearly that it's only for A320 and from reading on here I get the impression that even with an A320 TR you're at a huge disadvantage if you've now gone onto the 777 or any other aircraft and so aren't current on it. I'm considering a move home in the coming years but as you may have guessed I would really like to remain on the 777. Please don't berate me, i'm aware beggars can't be choosers but i'm just interested in the likelihood of me getting my break. I'm not bothered about command for the time being either.

Thank you to all who help !

[Polorutz]

john_smith, I'm a SFO for EZY and I can tell you that almost everyone I know is applying for the job.

All the new guys on the SO scale with more than 500 hours will apply.

Most of the brits that are in Europe following their European exodus to escape flexicrew will apply.

I'm sure almost every single LIS FO will apply after speaking to them and sensing their morale.

The guys who'll think twice about it will be the ones who are in the command process, even then a few of them will apply as well.

I believe that you can easily find everyone for this intake from easyjet provided they pass the assessments.

[Plastic787]

And I say again, it won't be in isolation. If an airbus operator from another airline passes all the requirements and performs well at selection he (or she!) will be offered a position, regardless of whether they are employed by easyJet or not. Naturally as a demographic there will be more successful people from easyJet than anywhere else because they are the largest A320 (A319) operator in Europe. It's not rocket science.

[go around flaps15]

It's a bit like the last intake at Thomson. The majority of new joiners were Ryanair. That doesn't mean they have any preference for Ryanair guys it just means a lot of the applications came from that source. Incidentally someone mentioned earlier that there isn't much chance for change of fleets etc at Thomson. Not true apparently. A few ex colleagues told me that from joining on the 737 you could expect a shot at the 787 in as little as three to four years.

Anyway going back to the earlier point I think the same would apply to BA and Easyjet applicants. Most will come from Easy and most that are successful will be Easyjet simply because that's were the majority of applications will come from.

[Officer Kite]

Can i ask people's opinions on whether BA might consider recruiting dep to the 777 or any long haul for that matter. I'm not being fussy but for those flying the 777 in the m.e, going back to fly the a320 will be difficult as you're not current despite having flown it in the past putting you at a disadvantage at selection, according to most. I'm not too bothered about command, just want to come home. From here I take it it's likely all future long haul requirements will be fed by shorthaul guys. Not good news for long haulers looking to come home on the boeing then :uhoh:

[Gingerbread Man]

I'm not in a position to apply for this, but if I ever am in the future, I will be over 30. Why is a BA application only seen as worthwhile if you're "under 30" to quote many posters, or even "27 or under" to quote another more specific poster?

I can do the maths of maximum likely retirement age vs. 34-year pay scale, but is that the only thing people are referring to?

[stiglet]

Good news for all then. Observation as an easy captain. If you're mid to late 20's apply to BA.

If easy keep their more mature FO's and those who really want to work for us, and maybe recruit more older, experienced pilots who hopefully will stay; there wont be the need for this revolving door of cadets. Of course there is still the initial pain of lower pay but if you want to join easy and can look further ahead it's good.

Good luck to all - whichever direction you're travelling.

[DooblerChina]

Thompson and Thomas Cook are struggling companies in the current airline and travel industry.

Eh????

If half a billion profit is struggling I'd love to see your idea of success!! Get out Of your BA bubble and look around. TOM is hugely successful and rewards us with the second best remuneration in the UK and arguable the best conditions... and its pretty mandatory to come out for beers downroute as one crew!!

Sorry for interrupting your back slapping competition.

[wiggy]

I can do the maths of maximum likely retirement age vs. 34-year pay scale, but is that the only thing people are referring to?

No, it's not just the pay, it's the fact that given the current rate of progression,and the fact that the first tranche of FPPs are already on the seniority list it will take a long time for the DEPs to get a command and/or get a Long Haul seat. Any older DEPS joining in the next few years need to be aware that if the current P&P system or something like it stays in place they could quite possibly "time out" before achieving a Status/Fleet change.

[stiglet]

GM

I think, notwithstanding hours, knowledge and ability there is a right time to get a command.

You need to be of a certain minimum age commensurate with maturity to give authority and confidence to your crew, handling partners and passengers. So depending on the individual and aircraft type earliest age would be late 20's to early 30's. Time to learn the aircraft and job properly can be, say, 5-10 years so after that time you're ready and hungry for the command. Unless you're constantly being challenged with new routes or fleets you can become stagnant in the RH and fall into a 'FO mentallity' with not thinking about the wider issues of the job.

If you join an airline in your 30's with a 15-20 yr wait for a command slot you'll most likely be 50+ before you get the chance at an upgrade. It's a know fact that changing/learning is more difficult at that age. Combine that with the fact you have been in the RH seat for a long time it becomes an uphill slog.

Most people aspire to a command. If you don't and are happy with your lot as a 'professional' FO there's not a problem with whoever you work for.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys just to give another prospective here, forgetting about command for a minute (which no matter what anybody says on here, is a very important step in a pilot's career) even only considering money and bases, by no means this is the best job as someone is suggesting. Best option in the UK, possibly.

When talking about some of the other companies you are forgetting about base options and local contracts which make a HUGE difference in money, conditions, schedule, lifestyle depending on where you are.

BA is a fantastic airline I think, with a great fleet and destinations, but we have to be honest and realise that no legacy is what it used to be 20 years ago. So someone joining now should be very aware, to avoid becoming a gold member of that moaning club which we all know too well.

[Watersidewonker]

and its pretty mandatory to come out for beers downroute as one crew!
Friends on Shorthaul tell me it's pretty much like the old days ..... With the ex BMi guys!!! Mix in a few ex EZJ and things could be looking a little more sociable.

[binsleepen]

As I understand it, just over 100 pilots will be recruited this year and just under 200 next year. This will include the cadets who number 70-80 this year and 60-70 next year. These cadets are the ones recruited over the last few years.

Regards

[binsleepen]

Window for applications closes today.

All the best

[Wind Calm]

Hello all,

An interesting thread with a range of opinions offered. In the end, I decided to apply. I see there is little to be lost by applying and the chances are I will be unsuccessful anyway given the stiff competition there is likely to be.

However, is someone able to shed some light on the BA pay scales (or point me in the right direction) so I can do my own due diligence from a financial perspective? Though, personally, that isn't the most important factor if I were in the position of being offered a job, it does form part of the picture.

Are these numbers on PPJN accurate, especially with regard to the top and bottoms of the scales for both FO and Capt? British Airways pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

[cloudn9ne]

Hi WC,

Yes those figures on ppjn are accurate.

The flying allowances have changed recently. About half of the total is now fixed if you fly or not. About £7700pa gross for LH and about £6500 SH.

The other half is variable and depends on flying. So add a total of about £16,000 gross pa to your basic.

You'll be on SH for about 6 years currently before having the seniority to get onto LH. With the current SH review and focus on competing better with the like of easyjet Ts and Cs will drop further and time to LH may increase. That said it's still a great place to be In my opinion.

[NigelOnDraft]

You'll be on SH for about 6 years currently before having the seniority to get onto LH. With the current SH review and focus on competing better with the like of easyjet Ts and Cs will drop further and time to LH may increase. That said it's still a great place to be In my opinion.I can only echo the part I underlined... It's sometime worrying hearing current BA pilots implying the goal posts have moved, and when they joined they were told "X years to Command, Y years to LH" and it did not happen :{

Moves to LH and/or LHS are essentially seniority and retirement driven. When you have some SH Capts bidding to RHS LH already, I leave the applicant to judge what effect the 2-3 "agreement" "business" reviews currently going on might have :oh: (1 clue is that "SH" appears in 2 of the savings / review items)

[Cattivo]

The only thing we can be certain of re movement in BA is that nobody knows for sure. As a SHW myself I had a very pessimistic view of when I'd get the opportunity to move but an email from our P&P guys left me way more optimistic. There are rumours of a higher than predicted retiral rate next year, a high number of ex-BMI guys aren't sticking around, the 55-65 bubble is bursting in the next 2-3 years, a shed load more Triples and the 350 (hopefully!) which will require Airbus recency all means that the opportunity to move MAY not be too far away. It's not unusual for guys to see out their 5-yr engagement freeze anyway, so I don't actually think things are much worse than they would be normally. The wait probably feels a lot longer just now to most SH guys due to current circumstances. A little birdie also tells me pilots aren't the target in the upcoming Review. Personally, I think it's not great at the moment but things should improve.

[4468]

Cattivo
a shed load more triples
How big is your shed?:rolleyes:

[NigelOnDraft]

Cattivo

As a SHW myself I had a very pessimistic view of when I'd get the opportunity to move but an email from our P&P guys left me way more optimistic
Your post echos my point, and the caution needed by new joiners. When we launch a DEP recruitment campaign (as we seem about to do - the current one is not a campaign but crisis (mis)management), it indicates movement for everybody. Hence why you simultaneously see things looking up for the SH escape rope :ok:

The point the applicants need to judge however is "what" the situation will be like in min 5 years time, yet gamble on the decision today. If the SH review / round 2 of bmi / WC talks don't solve the "SH is unprofitable" mantra of BA/IAG, and we see Vueling coming in to LHR, then the new entrants will be bottom of the BA list forever. Much as IB pilots were for some time, with zero prospects IIRC? (albeit I believe things are changed there now...)

Summary: Using todays "time to command" "time to LH" is a poor basis for serious career decisions. When I joined BA (1996), time to SH Command was 21yrs. But access to seniority lists etc. meant for those joining then, I calculated likely 7-8yrs, and in fact became nearer 5 for some. All I can urge prospective joiners is to really research the issue... and a pPrune thread is not going to get you that info ;)

[dontforgetthecowls]

I watched A Very British Airline last night.

Lets hope we don't forget to apply our lipstick 4 times, or we are out?

Also I thought drinking in uniform was a big no no? Yet they were feeding all the Cabin crew various wines, knowing some were driving home!

I also thought the mixed fleet cabin crew were supposed to be young and good looking? Didn't see much evidence of either (in both sexes to be fair!).

[razor27]

'I watched A Very British Airline last night.

Lets hope we don't forget to apply our lipstick 4 times, or we are out?

Also I thought drinking in uniform was a big no no? Yet they were feeding all the Cabin crew various wines, knowing some were driving home!

I also thought the mixed fleet cabin crew were supposed to be young and good looking? Didn't see much evidence of either (in both sexes to be fair!).'


Got your PFO then? :rolleyes:

[dontforgetthecowls]

Not yet.. I keep my lipstick topped up and my tights ladder free!

Good luck guys and girls..

:):)

[student88]

Nothing yet.

[fa2fi]

Nor me :-(

[a-ricky-town]

Me neither. How long does it usually take BA to come back with an answer?

[Plastic787]

Are you guys seriously expecting BA to turn around the absolute mountain of applications they must have had in less than a week?

[Blighty Pilot]

They mark down on spelling! Hard luck old boy I guess your application has been ** thrown** away!

[NigelOnDraft]

The sun is out. The weekend approaches. "Bidline is broken".

In BA speak, this means the recruitment team will have been Force Drafted and not able to process applications until... ;)

[Doug E Style]

...or a tug, or your TSAT, or a stand, or for the stand guidance to be turned on, or for the jetty to arrive, or for steps, busses, ground power, hi-lift for wheelchair passengers etc.... Waiting for stuff is a HUGE part of being a Nigel. The impatient need not apply...

[silverknapper]

Or your final figures whilst sitting at the holding point.

[WhyByFlier]

This 'force drafting' is a bit of a bugger in BA isn't it?! To clarify - does it mean they can give you 24 hours notice on any day off that you will be working instead of having a day off? I've heard several mates bitching about it.

Is it also true that SH captains are bidding back to the RHS of long haul?

[SinBin]

I've just been met on the jetty at T5 by a manager force drafting me for Sunday afternoon! :ugh: I hope they move faster with recruitment, forgot to pack my cunning disguise!

[wiggy]

SinBin

:{



WBF

....does it mean they can give you 24 hours notice on any day off that you will be working instead of having a day off?

In a nutshell and roughly speaking -yes. It is part and parcel of the bidline system - the justification for it goes along the lines that "if you, the pilots want a preference bidding system/Bidline then we, the company, need an emergency mechanism to catering for uncovered work." Now according to the rule set it's meant to be a "random and infrequent" process, and it used to be so - uncovered work was generally picked up pilots bidding for overtime or by those on Reserve & standby. Problem is that recently for some (mainly but not exclusively the short haul P2s) it has become anything but "random and infrequent".....as reasons for that happening..:oh:

[Al Murdoch]

Don't you have people on home standby?

[bex88]

Normally a pilot in his reserve month will have some home standby yes. At the moment I think our reserve lines are working flat out and any holes are covered by force draft. Arrived at 11pm on Thursday night onto the C gates to find a manager.......for the skipper who is seriously high up in the company. Everyone is at risk of draft right now so for summer it's best to consider yourself as at work or on standby. Days off don't exist