BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Pickled]

After more than 20 years in BA I am a reasonably junior LH skipper. My first JSS roster is a disaster, far far worse than under Bidline. It may be another 10 years or so before I become senior enough to get a decent lifestyle again.

Think long and hard before committing yourself to joining BA. It has its clear advantages but also a lot of negatives...and the negatives have been steadily increasing whilst the advantages have been quite drastically eroded.

Timing is everything and anyone joining now will be behind the huge recruitment campaign of the last few years.

[bex88]

Pickled. I am sure someone will be along shortly to remind you that it was your choice to take a command and you could have stayed in the RHS bla bla bla.

Pickled speaks volumes of our system. Someone who has been in BA for 20 plus years and still finds themselves junior and with worse rostering than in the past.

With 27 posts Pickled is not “a moaner” but someone who gets on with it. BA seems to be a great place to join if you have little desire to progress beyond the RHS anytime within the next 20 plus years.

What I would say Pickled is while I don’t know exactly what you wanted on your roster I am super junior on my status and my bid reflected that. I went into fall back but I did not get completely shafted because of the construction of my later bid groups. I am sure a JSS trainer could get you from a disaster to something more palletable. Again that’s my new positive side coming out.......sorry 🙄

[Paperplanes89]

Does anyone know if BALPA/BA are still working on tweaking the JSS seniority gradient? Looking at January rosters it would seem fair to say you will literally -no exaggeration to say- never see a weekend off work for years beyond your few (6?) golden days for the junior folk...quite alarming for potential new joiners...

[wiggy]

Does anyone know if BALPA/BA are still working on tweaking the JSS seniority gradient? Looking at January rosters it would seem fair to say you will literally -no exaggeration to say- never see a weekend off work for years beyond your few (6?) golden days for the junior folk...quite alarming for potential new joiners...

Dunno...I’ve heard so many stories about stuffed up rosters and good rosters from both senior and junior grumblers, So maybe a lot ATM is down to finger trouble and a lack of familiarity with the system (TBF the company interface is pants). I think it will be Easter until we see how it is really going to work. That said when I was a junior grumbler (RHS and LHS) I do recall weekends off being in short supply, both on Blindlines and Triplines. I think my record run of working weekends as a junior TLH (in the LHS) was 6 months without a weekend off other than during leave.

I suspect JSS made some a bit overly optimistic about what it would deliver.

[MOA]

As a junior (~3years) LH DEP (80% ish on my fleet), I made sure I fully understood JSS. I put the work in, spoke to the trainers and put a lot of careful time and effort into my bid. I was awarded Bid Group 19...... I am working 'fully' over every weekend apart from one Golden Day. My third BG was feasible but Global Constraints trashed everything. In the last 12 months, the worst I have had is working 3 of 4 weekends and that was due to being 'shafted' by pre-ops (note to self - never tick 'drop below clash'...). On average, and this is not down to swapping, I have 1-2 completely free weekends a month and working another 1/2 a weekend. If Global Constraints keep acting in the way they are, it is untenable for me (I'm a single Dad and can't work that many weekends). I have a plan to leave BA if this continues which I have to enact in May. The clock is ticking for me.

My take-away (yes it is early doors) is think long and hard if you have family commitments and you are joining direct onto LH. You'll stay junior for a lot longer than SH. Also, think when you'll likely get a command and what your commitments will be then too. You'll be junior for a while again...

[Wireless]

. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.

mmm I don’t know about the integrity of that statement. Your junior years aren’t exactly the same are they?

You’ll never have been junior under JSS. A PP24’s early pay years will never be the same as a PP34’s early years. Just examples of why one generations early years aren’t necessarily totally the same as the following generations junior years.

[red9]

Panel3:
I've done 14 years in BA now and have seen terms and conditions erode but I don't and I hope don't negotiate a new seniority bidding gradient. I, like most was the same on joining thinking it not fair to miss out on weekends and some of my colleagues almost demanding that they should have weekends off and more control over their rostering but it is a fair system, even now. We were ALL junior when we joined, we have ALL missed out on weekends, parties, family time but as your seniority grows, you gain more control. That is a fair system and the reward for loyalty and years put in. That is what you are or have joined. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.
I have nearly seven years in and remain at 80% MSL........
RexBanner:
One simple issue with that, just because that’s where their registered address is, doesn’t mean that that’s where they’ve come from that morning/day. People can and do book hotels within spitting distance of T5 (information unavailable to BA due to all sorts of data protection laws). Short of fitting a GPS tracker to everyone’s car and monitoring that car in and out of the car park, it is impossible to know how anyone has made it into work that day unless they’ve travelled with British Airways on a flight.

They are tracking the company issued ipad.

Wiggy:
BTW I’m struggling to find any missive from BA saying you should be back in the U.K. the day before departure.

A friend received a phone call from bizarrely a traing manager questioning his hotline flight ( returning from holiday in Europe ie not LH ) when he had an early report the next day - It wasnt very friendly.

[wiggy]

Wiggy:

A friend received a phone call from bizarrely a traing manager questioning his hotline flight ( returning from holiday in Europe ie not LH ) when he had an early report the next day - It wasnt very friendly.

Yep, I was aware those phone calls were happening, I was just interested in the claim made that there was a “missive” - i.e. Admin Notice or similar .

[RexBanner]

I've done 14 years in BA now and have seen terms and conditions erode but I don't and I hope don't negotiate a new seniority bidding gradient. I, like most was the same on joining thinking it not fair to miss out on weekends and some of my colleagues almost demanding that they should have weekends off and more control over their rostering but it is a fair system, even now. We were ALL junior when we joined, we have ALL missed out on weekends, parties, family time but as your seniority grows, you gain more control. That is a fair system and the reward for loyalty and years put in. That is what you are or have joined. I get tired of newbies coming in and saying, you don't understand, it's not fair, it's alright for you but rest assured my first 6 years in were very much the same. Suck it up.

Ah yes the I suffered it so you must argument. If the human race had that attitude we’d have never progressed beyond the dark ages. Alexander Fleming’s history could be very different, “well guys I’ve discovered this fantastic medicine that protects against the spread of disease but I’m afraid I won’t be releasing it to the general public because our generations before didn’t have it, bad luck”.

red9 if they’re truly tracking the iPad then simple, I shall be switching it off for the 24h period preceding the first day of a block of work.

[GS-Alpha]

I get the general feeling that people who have a better understanding of JSS are quite satisfied with their rosters whereas those who made fundamental mistakes in their bidding technique are very unhappy. However, this does not translate into JSS is great. The only time we will know how good or bad the system is for the junior guys, is when everyone is bidding with a full understanding of the system. At the moment junior pilots have picked up trips which senior pilots thought they were bidding for, and many junior pilots have been able to almost build their own rosters. I guarantee things will not remain this way. When Carmen first arrived at Gatwick, I was very junior yet I was always incredibly happy with my roster. Eventually everyone learns how to use the system.

[OBK!]

Ah yes the I suffered it so you must argument. If the human race had that attitude we’d have never progressed beyond the dark ages. Alexander Fleming’s history could be very different, “well guys I’ve discovered this fantastic medicine that protects against the spread of disease but I’m afraid I won’t be releasing it to the general public because our generations before didn’t have it, bad luck”.

red9 if they’re truly tracking the iPad then simple, I shall be switching it off for the 24h period preceding the first day of a block of work.

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

[OBK!]

Panel3:

I have nearly seven years in and remain at 80% MSL........


Are you sure? My friend has been in almost exactly (slightly less) than 7 years and is 65% on the MSL.

Edited for quotations

[RexBanner]

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

Can’t find a valid rebuttal so just throw insults around. It’s very easy to call someone a moaner or negative but harder to actually refute what someone is saying. For the record I don’t moan at work I get on with it, pprune is an outlet to vent when I’m bored. It’s very easy not to read pprune or, alternatively, just stick me on your ignore list.

[OBK!]

mmm I don’t know about the integrity of that statement. Your junior years aren’t exactly the same are they?

You’ll never have been junior under JSS. A PP24’s early pay years will never be the same as a PP34’s early years. Just examples of why one generations early years aren’t necessarily totally the same as the following generations junior years.




My junior years won’t have been the same as the older generations junior years, it’s a fact, I knew it and had no complaints. You do your time at the bottom of whatever list it is you are bottom of and work your way up.

[OBK!]

Can’t find a valid rebuttal so just throw insults around. It’s very easy to call someone a moaner or negative but harder to actually refute what someone is saying. For the record I don’t moan at work I get on with it, pprune is an outlet to vent when I’m bored. It’s very easy not to read pprune or, alternatively, just stick me on your ignore list.

If you’re bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. You’ve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.

[Wireless]

My junior years won’t have been the same as the older generations junior years, it’s a fact, I knew it and had no complaints. You do your time at the bottom of whatever list it is you are bottom of and work your way up.



I think you’ve missed the context of what I was saying.

I’m not disagreeing with the fact you start at the bottom. That in itself is quite simple. I was replying that citing one’s experience of being at the bottom will be the same as someone joiner years later is not a fact.

Was I actually moaning about this? No. I didn’t say anything along those lines.

Mmm. Rather than everyone falling out as a few posts above, I reckon it’s important to keep it basic. We need to stick together not squabble. There’s fantastic things about life at the “firm”. But equally it needs work to keep from going down hill as there’s already been a lot of changes. Nothing wrong with that I don’t think.

[RexBanner]

If you’re bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. You’ve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.

I commute, genius. Something that should be immediately obvious if you’ve been reading as many of my posts as you seem to have judging by your butthurt reaction. Of course I have time on my hands.

[OBK!]

I think you’ve missed the context of what I was saying.

I’m not disagreeing with the fact you start at the bottom. That in itself is quite simple. I was replying that citing one’s experience of being at the bottom will be the same as someone joiner years later is not a fact.

Was I actually moaning about this? No. I didn’t say anything along those lines.

Mmm. Rather than everyone falling out as a few posts above, I reckon it’s important to keep it basic. We need to stick together not squabble. There’s fantastic things about life at the “firm”. But equally it needs work to keep from going down hill as there’s already been a lot of changes. Nothing wrong with that I don’t think.

I agree. Once we all understand BA is the long game. Too many times I hear of junior guys being hard done by and wanting more pay, less work, less seniority gradient because it suits them at that time. Pretty much all of us will spend less time being junior than senior so let’s work together smartly towards bettering what we’ll have to look forward to....

if if you’re joining BA, think about how many years you’ll have here and where you want to be. No good coming if you’re not willing to stomach the first 5/6 years at least.

[Enzo999]

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a “youth”. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children it’s much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to “suck it up” or “leave” is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one don’t care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesn’t he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to “suck it up”.

[OBK!]

You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a “youth”. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children it’s much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to “suck it up” or “leave” is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one don’t care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesn’t he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to “suck it up”.













The youth/junior was to separate the two, not put them in the same bracket.

Enzo if you find the seniority system offensive how is it you came to join? You did your research as to what to expect beforehand surely? Was it a case of getting in and then wanting to change it? What do you expect 16 years at another airline to actually give you in BA?

I wouldn’t compare that part to any other profession. But if it was the same and a senior surgeon made his own choice to leave and join again at the bottom....yes, your choice, live with it. It’s not the companies fault.

[Enzo999]

The youth/junior was to separate the two, not put them in the same bracket.

Enzo if you find the seniority system offensive how is it you came to join? You did your research as to what to expect beforehand surely? Was it a case of getting in and then wanting to change it? What do you expect 16 years at another airline to actually give you in BA?

I wouldn’t compare that part to any other profession. But if it was the same and a senior surgeon made his own choice to leave and join again at the bottom....yes, your choice, live with it. It’s not the companies fault.

What if that Surgeon had to leave because the hospital he was working at closed, would that still be his fault, would it still be fair enough that his personal life was destroyed? Anyway you nicely sum up the I am alright jack attitude that exists in BA. JSS, PP34, BARP etc etc etc all introduced by your beloved company all of which adversely effect junior guys, but hey it’s not their fault it’s mine for joining.

[GS-Alpha]

Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isn’t quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.

[bex88]

OKB, unfortunately you do reflect the attitude of this company and it stinks.

Seniority has its place but it should not be used as a weapon or on anything which so fundamentally affects the day to day lives of any pilot.

I fly with with a lot of guys who have life experience, some have lots of flying experience and are here because of need rather than choice. Many of our junior pilots have come from other professions where they contributed so much more to the world than what they ever will do as a pilot and quite honestly some treat them like dirt.

The whole argument of i did my time does not stack up. The world has changed, we fly a lot more. Hell 15 years ago I could drive past Heathrow on the M25 at 15:00 on a Friday and not be stuck in a traffic jam. Some will be junior for a long time, others less so.

I am not saying and I don’t think anyone else is saying that we should reinvent the wheel but the opportunity to change the gradient has been taken and it has only increased it. We should be looking to have a balanced reward for seniority but a acceptance of the needs for all. We are talking about pilots who are hiding stress, depression and family break downs because of the damage our rostering system does.

As enzo999 hinted not everyone chose to join and not everyone is afforded the luxury of seniority that you talk of.

Rex is a top bloke, or girl, I am never sure which so lay off and just try and understand a position other than your own.

[RexBanner]

I’m never sure either Bex, I’ve just used the girlfriend’s strawberry scented shampoo (it’s glorious) and have started buying scented candles so it’s getting ever more confusing! I’m sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then I’m going to respond. I’d never deny I’m guilty of moaning but generally it’s stuff which I’ve got every right to, company treating you like a pariah and targeting my lifestyle personally just for taking a 35 minute flight to work instead of driving an hour and a half on the motorway. That’s the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, which it should. Nobody is saying you senior guys should start working every weekend again, but at least giving the junior one or two every once in a while might be nice. The fact that you consider such a thought abominable speaks volumes as Bex says.

[Wireless]

sorry for taking it to the level of the playground but if someone comes after me personally in a direct and unprovoked attack then I’m going to respond


I don’t think anyone was pointing the blame of that one on you mate ;)

[Tay Cough]

Pickled. I am sure someone will be along shortly to remind you that it was your choice to take a command and you could have stayed in the RHS bla bla bla.

Pickled speaks volumes of our system. Someone who has been in BA for 20 plus years and still finds themselves junior and with worse rostering than in the past.

Similar position. Similar JSS outcome. When you seemingly become more junior, the goalposts have been moved based upon a career decision you may have made several years ago. Seriously considering life outside BA now. Just need to convince Mrs Cough that her life will be acceptable with me working abroad.

...not everyone chose to join...

Don’t be ridiculous. There’s no conscription into BA. Yes, some joined by default due to mergers (such as CFE or BMI) and decided to stay but no-one was forced.

[Wireless]

. That’s the main thing. But seemingly all I did to get attacked was stand up for the junior guys by implying it ought to be more equitable, .


Thats an important thing. It’s quite common for seniors in industry (not just at BA) to vote out things that affect those behind them, creating a divided workforce. The Chickens do come home to roost eventually..

Becomes a real problem when firms start captilising and offering split deals.

Recruit a generation of juniors with B scales pensions, pay points and exposure to junior working on a roster system they didn’t vote for. Give it a while to cultivate a toxic “them and us” atmosphere fuelled by the same seniors who voted their changes telling juniors to shut their gobs, and it’s a breeding ground for disaster. For everyone.

Recruit enough juniors in with union votes and guess what they’ll be voting for at the next split deal. Everyone starts plodding down a few steps. I’ve seen it happen. It’s one of the oldest tricks in the industrial black art hand book.

Never, ever sell out terms for those joining after you to protect your own. It bites you back as a workforce. It’s hapoened so many times in industry.

[Enzo999]

Enzo, I find myself wondering why you chose to join BA if you find a seniority system so offensive? I am not passing comment on whether such a system is good or bad, but you surely knew it was like this within BA? Why did you not choose to join a different airline where seniority isn’t quite so important? It is akin to choosing to move to France but then finding it offensive that everyone speaks French.

Well it’s simple really, I needed a job that was not a contract position, my family are all very settled in the SE and I did not want to relocate them, I liked short haul flying so my options were very small and I naively thought how bad can it be.

Just for clarification it’s not the seniority system per se I find offensive, I understand it’s a nessecary evil. It’s the attitude it installs in others that their lives are somehow more important than mine, that my time and family are less valuable simply because I happened to join a company later.

The trouble is the seniorty system at BA is so deep routed and ingrained that it affects the very fabric of your life and it’s almost impossible to understand until you live with it. There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same “you knew what it was like before you joined” BS.

[NLP]

Rosters: Seniority gradient definitely steepened with JSS (I was happy with mine but I dont mind working weekends).
Commuting: Is being monitored and pilots receive warnings for sensible commutes.
Fatigue: Is only the responsibility of the pilot, not the company.
Salary: Falls short of other flag carriers.
Brexit: Weak pound, not great spending it in Euro's

I've been positive up to now and have reccommended people to join (just check my old posts). Few friends are in the final stages of the assessments and I'm really not sure what to reccommend them anymore. After 2,5 years BA has finally broken my positive spirit.

If a better opportunity comes I might take it.

[GS-Alpha]

There will be people on this formum reading this who will still join and in a years time you will be shouting at them with the same “you knew what it was like before you joined” BS.
I am not shouting at anyone, and it is not BS, it is factually the way it is, for better or worse. The majority always wins, and since seniority is one system which is always going to benefit the majority, it is a near impossible thing to change. I will soon be right back down the bottom again in the left hand seat. I cannot be bitter about that though, because I can always choose not to do it.

[Ron Swanson]

I only come on to PPRUNE to see if people are moaning about the same things I'm moaning about. But now people are moaning about the moaning; well I would like to be the first to moan about the people moaning about the people moaning.

Do I win £5?

PS being junior at BA is sh1t but eventually it fades away. But PLEASE tell me again how much better the old guys had it when you joined, can't hear that enough.

[MikeAlpha320]

That is an utterly ridiculous argument. Stop trying so hard to be negative and making excuses for it. The sense of entitlement really does baffle me with some of our youth/junior guys coming through. I did 5 years at the bottom on blind lines before recruitment started again and I gained some seniority to be able to bid, I couldn’t have been happier when there was movement. Some new starters are in tears over having to do 3 months at the bottom and are complaining they’re not moving quick enough.

Leave aviation. Or go back to the airline you came from at least.

If you’re bored you must have time on your hands, do some overtime or go and have root canal or something. You’ve obviously spending too much time convincing your self how hard done by you are. Or trying to convince others at least.

Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA :} One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself. :ok:

[OBK!]

Do some overtime? Maybe Rex has a life outside of BA :} One of the worst posts I've seen on this forum actually- and I've posted some pretty stupid things myself.

Of course being junior now is more difficult than before. The MOA (SH) has been torn to shreds, we work EASA FTLs and the company is constantly trying to squeeze more productivity. Were people flying 900/pa 10/15/20 years ago? JAR FTLs certainly more restrictive than EASA, pay was better (relative to PP34) and less 'efficient' rosters. We all join knowing we'll be junior etc- that doesn't mean a little sympathy/compassion sometimes might go a long way. If you are sat complaining that you had it just as bad as we do now why are you not a bit more understanding? Perhaps if the response wasn't 'I had to do it so now you do' the unity in BA might actually improve. The arrogance and total lack of compassion for some of your colleagues is really quite sad. No-one is asking you to give up all your 'hard-earned' weekends - rather that we pull together as a work force and gain back some of the ground BA pilots seem to have lost.

It won't be that long until PP34 are the majority - BARP are majority and those 'junior' to you will be the majority in the company. Shall we start lobbying for PP34 only pay deals? Enjoy being sat up on your senior perch... its a long way down.

Perhaps your polite request to 'leave aviation' to Rex could be considered by yourself. :ok:

My overtime comment wasn’t serious, neither was root canal....

You seem to have me as someone senior, I’m very much not, by choice. All weekends worked (hopefully on lates now though with JSS, not really in trip line territory) and BARP contributor from the start. Redundant from previous outfit too if that helps, so you could say I was ‘forced’ to join BA as well. But I won’t use that term, I made a choice given my situation. Neither will new joiner friends of mine, they chose BA and are perfectly happy with how the seniority system works. PP34 is a bitter pill I get that (so was giving up NAPS for those senior folk, for a couple of extra % on DC scheme) but the alternative may have been worse. BA ain’t all that and I’m in the fight to make it better, but if I’m fed up and miserable to the extent of some of the people I fly with make out, I’d definitely consider moving on. Or change fleets/seats/destinations/base.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The regulations talk about people whose journey to work usually exceeds 90 minutes. BA have targeted people whose journey takes less than this, I know that for a fact. A few Amsterdam commuters have received phone calls for instance. easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not so let’s not pretend that this is mandated by the regulator.

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

I’ve flown with a captain who drove down same morning from Manchester for an early LHR report. Yet the commuter who spends 8h 52m in base overnight having flown in that evening from Amsterdam gets the sh*tty phone call whilst he walks around with impunity. There is nothing right about that scenario and yet it is going on all the time.

Rex the 90 minutes assumes a car journey. One of the AOC's mentioned above did a trial of crew members driving in a car simulator after a night flight. It filmed them as they started micro sleeping. So your correct the Captain from Manchester is the biggest risk unless your driving for 4 hours after your plane home. BA's operation is completely different depending on what flights / schedules are being operated. Lets say your doing a 2100 to JFK - will you be flying in mid afternoon and hanging around the crew room for hours or will you fly in the morning and be tucked up in bed having a nap before the flight. BA can't mandate that only you under crew members responsibilities and your professionalism can.

[RexBanner]

Assumes a car journey yes I agree. However seeing as there’s absolutely nothing written down as to what constitutes an acceptable commute by air, you have to assume the same applies. The problem is as Wiggy has said in the past, so I have to credit him with this particular example, you could get up at the crack of sparrows to fly into Heathrow and sit around the CRC for 12 hours before operating a long haul flight in the evening and tick every box of what EASA says constitutes proper rest, yet we know doing that you’d be laughably tired. What’s wrong with treating us like proper professionals and allowing us to judge what is sensible? Yes some people take the mick but take those individuals to one side and deal with them. Don’t band them together with all of us and treat the rest of us like naughty children. That’s all I’m arguing. I’ve done a drive from Birmingham to Heathrow to go to work (90 mins) and I’ve taken a flight from Jersey to Gatwick to go to work (I think everyone knows who I am by now) and I know which journey I felt more tired after (rhetorical).

[Thegreenmachine]

At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), I’ve just been told I’m in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!
Was in the pool for a few weeks before being lifted out for 320 at lhr.

​​​​​​As you were.

[tommytailwind]

You seem to be completely missing the points some are trying to make. Not everyone that is Junior in BA is a “youth”. The man up boy I had to live through it attitude really irritates me. I joined BA with 16 years worth of Airline flying behind me, not because I wanted to but because I had to, not everyone who joins BA does so out of a desperate desire to wear the hat. To be told all you previous experience and time has been completed wasted is a bitter pill to swallow. Remember BA are not doing us a favour giving us jobs, they asked us to join, to be told you are less important and hence rewarded less and expepected to live with s#it jut because you have worked less time BA is offensive to me.

If you join BA in your early 20s then maybe you can afford to waste 10 years of your life, but when you are 35 and have young children it’s much more painful. Children only grow up once and missing out on their lives Is very painful to me, being told to “suck it up” or “leave” is not very helpful and in actual fact goes to speak of the toxic environment we work in. I for one don’t care if I get weekends off when my children are 20!

People on here constantly compare what we do to other high skilled professions and certainty expected to be rewarded as one. So tell me when a Surgeon leaves a hospital doesn’t he suddenly then become a junior doctor and is expected to work every weekend? Does a senior partner at a law firm have to start at the bottom on sub standard pay just because he goes to work at a new firm? Would love to see you tell those guys to “suck it up”.








Enzo, are you sure you joined BA with 16 years of airline flying behind you? Thought you were at flightschool with me back in 2005/06. Anyway, I completely agree with you. I joined BA longhaul from an easyJet command with a young family and cannot express strongly enough how difficult life can be joining BA in those circumstances. As a warning to anyone considering joining if you're married with kids - think long and hard. Money is of secondary importance and lifestyle is of primary importance. If you're single, enjoy the opportunities BA has to offer. If you're not, you may well end up regretting your decision. I did a 180 and returned to easyJet after a few months of fatigue and stress that would undoubtedly have lead to (and this is no exaggeration) being at best on the edge of depression and I haven't regretted my decision for a second. The introduction of JSS will only make things worse. I feel a different individual back at Easy despite the challenges of a shorthaul roster. The 3-4 days off between blocks of work and fixed roster are fantastic in terms of being able to recover.

Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Please try and resist the temptation to join BA to call yourself Speedbird or join because you consider it a 'prestigious' job unless you're absolutely sure it's what you want. Only when 5-7 years in as a LH FO or 25 years in as a LH Capt will you reap the lifestyle rewards. That said, my time at BA was a pleasure in terms of the training and the colleagues I met. Great bunch of guys and girls who treat you as an adult.

Very good concise advice.

Regarding JSS. There is a huge amount of negativity out there. Put simply, if you want to write your own roster and have lots of weekends off then you will perpetually be pissed off with life as an airline pilot. Whoever you work for. Most negative reviews are down to a perceived loss of control over what you are bidding for as we now lack visibility of the actual lines of work that are on offer. The principle of seniority hasn’t changed though, and the simple rule is the lower down you are the less control you will have regardless of how the work is bid for.

In BA if you are junior you will, to some degree, shovel manure for a few years, depending on how quickly recruitment takes place and which fleet you are on. Then you will have a series of choices to make over your career that will affect your seniority. If you choose DEP LH or an early command on SH you will be consigning yourself to being junior for a longer period of time than the “average”.

None of this is news. It’s fairly common knowledge for new recruits if you do your homework.

As Tommytailwind has said be careful with your reasons for joining. I applaud anyone with the wherewithal to quit and go back to ezy etc if they find it really doesn’t work for them. If you find life here isn’t for you, look elsewhere. I agree that it is rubbish at the bottom. BA management don’t think so because people are queuing up to join and not enough vote with their feet when they find the job doesn’t work for them, because when it comes down to it admitting you have stuffed up and going back to an ex-employer cap in hand is difficult.

In summary, I really don’t think, from a new joiners point of view, that a lot has changed. We’ve had one roster under JSS. I do however understand the gripes and confusion from more established pilots. It will take time to figure out if things are better or worse than life under the previous system. My feeling is it won’t make much difference. We still have the same amount of work to cover. The variable will ALWAYS be how many pilots we have to cover that work. How we bid for it and who gets what has always been driven by seniority. It still is.

[Capt Ecureuil]

OK I'll pip in.

What is this "Toxic Atmosphere" that a few post about? Is it the management, the training department, or fellow crew?

Nearly 30 years in I still remember joining with many thousand hours at the bottom of the most senior fleet, twas the way that it is was then and always has been, perhaps because we didn't have the internet there wasn't so much bitching.

Just to add in all those years there is only one guy that I wouldn't shake hands with after a trip.

[Mansnothot]

At a risk of upsetting people on here and bringing this thread back to what it really is all about (Direct Entry), I’ve just been told I’m in the hold pool for the A320, to be based at LGW or LHR.

Can anyone indicate how long people are staying in the pool for at present? Also, which of the two bases is most likely to be awarded?

Thanks for the help!

I got word that I passed the sim on the Monday and got called for A320 Heathrow that Thursday. Don’t know if there’s any particular base that you are more likely to get. I have heard of people getting offered one, and after asking for it they got the other. Hope that helps. Take care!

[wiggy]

OK I'll pip in.

What is this "Toxic Atmosphere" that a few post about? Is it the management, the training department, or fellow crew?

Nearly 30 years in I still remember joining with many thousand hours at the bottom of the most senior fleet, twas the way that it is was then and always has been, perhaps because we didn't have the internet there wasn't so much bitching.

Just to add in all those years there is only one guy that I wouldn't shake hands with after a trip.

Wasn’t me was it:uhoh::\

Seriously....good point about the intergripe.....I think the big irritant ATM is managements never ending bearing down on some aspects of the day job and what some perceive as the hectoring of the line staff whilst they seem OTOH to be ignoring things that really do need fixing but don’t get it done because doing so would cost 10 pence....

As for previous comments about senority and JSS...There seems to several different sides to this and I think the point made about some people expecting every weekend off is very valid. The way I’ve heard it in the last few days is some of the community got their heads around the JSS process early on / got lucky/ constructed bids iaw with their senority and associated expectations and achieved rosters that probably were a match to anything they got under Bidline, if not better. Some of the absolute disasters might have been finger trouble/people being stupidly optimistic and then not having a realistic backstop (if that is not too controversial a term these days) which meant when those didn’t work out they got dumped on, and then there is the issue of those that were previously on Blindlines finding they are now being rostered to a full months flying...I do understand some of the angry reactions I have read elsewhere but I’ve spoken to a lot of people who were happy with the result...I still think it will need until at least Easter until we see how it will work long term.

The really big thing to understand is the senority aspect of working at BA is not going away any time soon.

[Jumbo2]

Have a few mates who are JSS trainers and got another mate who is a BALPA rep. Both say 9 out of 10 are happy with what they got given in January with their first JSS bid. From the 10% who are not happy around 75% made an error in their bid or simply didn't put in the work to fully understand JSS.

I guess it always the 2.5% who weren't happy who scream the loudest. I for one really appreciate seniority, it makes things fair and transparent. Have seen it in previous airlines who rather took Direct Entry Captains than promoting their own staff. In BA at least loyalty is rewarded and everybody begins at the bottom of the long list and works him/herself up. I still remember we got told on day one "In BA you only have to be junior once" this is so true. With that in mind it makes me laugh some choose to be junior for a prolonged period with their career choices and then start complaining about it. I doubt they will get much empathy from anybody they fly with.

[Pickled]

Have a few mates who are JSS trainers and got another mate who is a BALPA rep. Both say 9 out of 10 are happy with what they got given in January with their first JSS bid. From the 10% who are not happy around 75% made an error in their bid or simply didn't put in the work to fully understand JSS.

I guess it always the 2.5% who weren't happy who scream the loudest. I for one really appreciate seniority, it makes things fair and transparent. Have seen it in previous airlines who rather took Direct Entry Captains than promoting their own staff. In BA at least loyalty is rewarded and everybody begins at the bottom of the long list and works him/herself up. I still remember we got told on day one "In BA you only have to be junior once" this is so true. With that in mind it makes me laugh some choose to be junior for a prolonged period with their career choices and then start complaining about it. I doubt they will get much empathy from anybody they fly with.

You only have to be junior once? I guess that is true if you wish to stay in the same fleet and seat all of your career.

I believe that your comments about JSS are just as accurate for many of us. It is early days for JSS but I think that in time most of us will bitterly regret giving up BidLine, just as we have regretted so many other changes over the last 10 years.

[Jumbo2]

You only have to be junior once? I guess that is true if you wish to stay in the same fleet and seat all of your career.


Not really, what they meant with it at the time was you are only junior when you join the airline after that it is by choice. You don't need to jump at the first command opportunity or go straight into LH after your SH engagement freeze is over after 5 years. You could stay 1 or 2 extra years on the fleet in a senior position before going LH. Having said that with the 800+ pilots recruited over the last few years, of which a fair few went straight onto LH, if you move to LH after your engagement freeze is over you would be around 75-80% on any LH fleet at the moment.

I hear what you say about JSS, it wasn't my choice either, but the majority has voted and unfortunately JSS is reality now. Being a JSS critic myself I have to admit I was impressed with my January roster. But I do think there is still a fair bit of work to do on the inhibitors to make the (mainly LH) seniority gradient similar as what we had with Bidline.

[bex88]

Jumbo2. I have to agree that the seniority system is about the only one which works. Start at the bottom and work your way up. You earn the opportunity for a seat change or command but you still have to prove you are capable.

What I disagree with is how seniority is used to such a extent that it so negatively affects the day to day lives of a good 20% of any status. Yes there should be a gradient but that gradient is very steep. We have a problem getting people to take commands because of it.

There are simple solutions which could resolve this but the top rules and there is no appetite to do anything.

Some of us would love to “start at the bottom and work our way up” the reality is we stay at the bottom forever unless we give up our command. That is not a fair system at all.

[red9]

Some of us would love to “start at the bottom and work our way up” the reality is we stay at the bottom forever unless we give up our command. That is not a fair system at all.



Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........

[Tay Cough]

Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........

Apart from the ones who jumped the seniority to get Longhaul commands. There are some on 747 and 787. I believe there may even be some into the A380 this year.

[BASHLH]

Like all of the ex BMI Boys and Girls who remain at the bottom.........

Not quite true is it Red9...

From day one the ex bmi boys & girls have been able to join RHS LH & therefore leave the bmi bubble... indeed I watched through my 5 year engagement freeze junior pilots do exactly that... & get commands on LH&SH! Frustrating for me yes but that was the deal. Any ex bmi Pilot bidding for a protected command also knew the deal & therefore would enter the bmi bubble, wether that’s fare or not that’s the deal. So to assume there was no choice is frankly wrong, it was their Choice!

However in 2016 Commands went so junior that a group of ex bmi pilots achieved an aspirational position, I along with many feel they should be in the BA list & why BALPA doesn’t correct this I don’t know... I guess because it doesn’t suit them & by them I mean IG. I’ve also been told that it’s to do with MPE , but that’s a load of pony because as people eventually retire it will become impossible to maintain that MPE. Don’t forget it was the ex bmi Pilots that scuppered the last JSS vote too!

Red if you want the bmi bubble to be disbanded then be my guest to complain to BALPA, we’re all BA pilots which means we all adhere to the MOA & all have a MSL position. I respect the negative aspects of the integration deal, so should everyone.

[bex88]

BASHLH. The protected command thing is all very grey and mostly not covered in the agreement. 100% spot on with the 2016 commands though.

I just wish it could be sorted. It’s nearly 7 years now and it is still paralysis. The only way out is from the top to take a LH command (< 2 % ) of LH commands or give up your command.

Anyway I repeat myself again and again. I think we agree on the subject.

[king surf]

It is true The ex BMI could go right hand seat and go long haul.
Believe it or not not everyone wants long haul despite more money etc etc, so the only choice they have is to go RHS short haul if they want to leave the bubble,
I take my. Hat off to the FO’s who chose to take command and re enter the bubble to forward their career which I believe is what we all probably wanted when we first started out. I do get it as to why so many long haul pilots just stay where they are with many retiring in the RHS.

[Mansnothot]

Hi all,

Anyone passed the sim recently knows the time frame from entering the hold pool to getting a offer/start date? And what fleet is currently being offered?

Thanks!

Scroll up a couple of posts and you can read some peoples experiences. Most people seem to be waiting about 1/2 weeks before they get an offer. As advertised, the 320 is still the main fleet being offered but people have also been getting 74, 77, and 78.

[OBK!]

By way of an update and for m’2pence worth the latest is command airbus at LHR has now gone senior, Gatwick is off the end of the list, very junior. A friend of mine who is airbus rated has just been given long haul 787, 5 days in the hold pool. I think the lady in charge has now been given the green light to offer courses out. If you’re swimming, expect news very quickly. If you’re applying, expect a very quick application process and gen up on the 767 pitch and power numbers for the assessment. You won’t have to wait long, they’re using the 76 now full time for selection. Good luck

[wiggy]

I think the lady in charge has now been given the green light to offer courses out.

Isn’t it a bloke now?

In any event as you say there seems to have been a major reshuffle/rejig of Airbus courses and training.

[pilotpete123]

With JSS and the new crack down on pre duty commuting, would current pilots now consider it difficult to commute in from other parts of the UK while maintaining a decent quality of life? LH or SH.

[wiggy]

I think it’s a bit early to see how JSS will really work out, it will take another 2-3 months before we see how typical rosters shape up and how they would fit with “commuting”.

[pilotpete123]

I think it’s a bit early to see how JSS will really work out, it will take another 2-3 months before we see how typical rosters shape up and how they would fit with “commuting”.

Thanks for the reply. Having run into a fair number of (usually) long haul crews on my particular shuttle I gather it has been possible in the past without being too detrimental to quality of life? I suppose you’d need at least two completely clear days off between trips or tours otherwise you could be spending an awful lot of single days off in the T5 travelodge.

[wiggy]

Thanks for the reply. Having run into a fair number of (usually) long haul crews on my particular shuttle I gather it has been possible in the past without being too detrimental to quality of life? I suppose you’d need at least two completely clear days off between trips or tours otherwise you could be spending an awful lot of single days off in the T5 travelodge.
.

FWIW on Longhaul you are usually going to get two or more complete clear days off between trips anyway, unless you opt to reduce rest or actively try for a back to back...

[Somko transition]

Hi All,

I attended stage 1 of the assessment on the 3rd Dec as yet I have not heard anything regarding the outcome.

Has anyone else heard anything who attended an assessment early Dec?

Cheers.

[ChrisE]

Hi All,

I attended stage 1 of the assessment on the 3rd Dec as yet I have not heard anything regarding the outcome.

Has anyone else heard anything who attended an assessment early Dec?

Cheers.

Hey bud, I attended on the same day as you - we probably spoke! I haven't heard either and kinda assumed that meant I was unsuccessful - however I phoned them yesterday and they said they haven't given any results out yet from that day and to wait patiently for an email... starting to lose my mind slightly! Good luck!

[kendrick47247]

Hey bud, I attended on the same day as you - we probably spoke! I haven't heard either and kinda assumed that meant I was unsuccessful - however I phoned them yesterday and they said they haven't given any results out yet from that day and to wait patiently for an email... starting to lose my mind slightly! Good luck!

Such a bizarre recruitment process; I know of people who have been progressed to stage 2 that attended stage 1 later than 3rd December.

But I guess it’ll all remain quiet until the new year now

[Daddy Fantastic]

Can any of you fill us in on what stage 1 was like, what was involved and how you would prepare if doing it again. PM's are welcome as well.

[Somko transition]

Such a bizarre recruitment process; I know of people who have been progressed to stage 2 that attended stage 1 later than 3rd December.

But I guess it’ll all remain quiet until the new year now

That doesn't fill me with confidence for my chances of progressing to stage 2...

[kendrick47247]

That doesn't fill me with confidence for my chances of progressing to stage 2...
No no no, don’t let what I said make you think that.
I think they’re just a little bit backwards about coming forwards in their processing of stuff

[NLP]

Give them a call or send them an email guys. They're pretty approachable. You have the right to hear something within a few weeks. They should be very happy that you're taking the effort to apply for the job. Good luck with the rest of the assessments!

[ChrisE]

Give them a call or send them an email guys. They're pretty approachable. You have the right to hear something within a few weeks. They should be very happy that you're taking the effort to apply for the job. Good luck with the rest of the assessments!

Thanks NLP, I called on Friday (assuming they were finishing for Christmas) and they said that if I don't hear by January 3rd give them another call! However like a reply above, I've had friends who've had their results within 10 days! Just annoying but understandable now the DEP application is open again. They must be snowed under!

[LeMoul]

Hi! Can someone who attended stage 3 confirm the sim is on 767 now?

Thanks

[kendrick47247]

Hi! Can someone who attended stage 3 confirm the sim is on 767 now?

Thanks

All 767 now, and for the foreseeable future apparently

[Phantom4]

Don't put your mortgage on it being 767.Revise 747 RR and GE pitch power.

[738BusDriver]

Hi all,

Merry Xmas.

Who is booked in for sim assessment on Jan 8th at 0930? PM me if so.

[wiggy]

Don't put your mortgage on it being 767.Revise 747 RR and GE pitch power.


Puzzled of BA here ...747 GE in the context of BA?

[Phantom4]

Brief for sim has pitch power for 767,744 RR and GE just in case sim tech or decommissioned would switch to 744 in whichever configuration.GE third party work.

[wiggy]

Ah I see, thanks :ok:

[cessnapete]

When flying for GSS we occasionally used BA 744 sim, which could quite quickly be reconfigured for GE engines.
GSS used leased Atlas B774F with GE power plant.

[crazypilot]

Hi all,

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and didn’t work too hard!

I did my interview / group ex stage mid November, received the “please book your sim assessment” email shortly after but still yet to have any dates populated on the careers website. Don't suppose anyone knows if they will be releasing dates soon or have they forgotten about me? 🙈

Many thanks!

[Dupre]

Crazypilot, this is common. Don't worry they haven't forgotten about you, just keep checking regularly for slots to be added to the system. They get snapped up pretty quickly so don't dilly dally when you see a date that you can make. I was waiting months, but that was probably an extreme case. Good luck!

[crazypilot]

Good to know, thanks!

Crazypilot, this is common. Don't worry they haven't forgotten about you, just keep checking regularly for slots to be added to the system. They get snapped up pretty quickly so don't dilly dally when you see a date that you can make. I was waiting months, but that was probably an extreme case. Good luck!

[GE115b]

Wondering if someone could help me out with some figures?

I am curious; what is the current basic salary for a long haul FO with 5 years seniority in the company? I've played around with the figures on ppjn and I'm guessing it is circa £78,500 gross basic pa?

How much would be paid into their pension in a year?

Is there profit sharing at BA or a share scheme?

[clvf88]

Wondering if someone could help me out with some figures?

I am curious; what is the current basic salary for a long haul FO with 5 years seniority in the company? I've played around with the figures on ppjn and I'm guessing it is circa £78,500 gross basic pa?

How much would be paid into their pension in a year?

Is there profit sharing at BA or a share scheme?

On top of this, would anyone be able to clarify what other payments are made? I'm aware of the 'flight pay' and 'away from base' payments. Is there anything else we should factor into our calculations, i.e overnight, overtime, disruption payments etc?

Many thanks :)

[Eddie_Crane]

Wondering if someone could help me out with some figures?

I am curious; what is the current basic salary for a long haul FO with 5 years seniority in the company? I've played around with the figures on ppjn and I'm guessing it is circa £78,500 gross basic pa?

How much would be paid into their pension in a year?

Is there profit sharing at BA or a share scheme?

Your figures are way wide of the mark.
Basic for LH FO at pp5/34 is just over £67K.

If you pay 6% into pension, BA will pay 15.6%.

No share scheme. There has been some profit sharing, but peanuts really compared to the £Bn profits.

[VinRouge]

Your figures are way wide of the mark.
Basic for LH FO at pp5/34 is just over £67K.

If you pay 6% into pension, BA will pay 15.6%.

No share scheme. There has been some profit sharing, but peanuts really compared to the £Bn profits.


Longhaul With 16k duty pay/allowances, not really that far off the mark. Year 3 on 75% contract I've heard a few individuals quote 4300 a month including allowances and pension/BAlpa fees deducted. As you are only removing the bit you are paying 40% tax on, the impact to net is more like a 17% reduction vice 25% gross. I think typical allowances on a 3/4 trip month longhaul on 75% contract are around 1300-1500 gross.

[wiggy]

On top of this, would anyone be able to clarify what other payments are made? I'm aware of the 'flight pay' and 'away from base' payments.

I’ll let one of the newer joiners come up with actual numbers but general observation..

You’ve come up with the two main variables to add to basic: flying pay and time away from base payment..

Closest to an “overnight payment” is the “Daily Overseas Allowance”...which will not make you a millionare..

Overtime (if you can fit it in) is available ...but doesn’t pay a staggeringly high multiple of the normal rate.

Disruption payments (and similar such as the much lamented “lateness credit) have been whittled down over the years and on Longhaul only really starts to kick in if you are a day late back into base or more, so it is not something you can plan on as a regular top up to the income.

[Enzo999]

Year 5 L/H FO basic is £67658

Additional pay is as follows.

flight pay block to block £10 per hour
Time away from base (starts getting paid at check in and stops at check out in LHR) £3 something an hour of which about 30% is tax free although that won’t last much longer.

I would say factor in about another 15 to 18k a year in flight pay and TAFB pay.

Bonus forget about it, apparently there was some share scheme but I have never been paid out from it so I would write that off to.

Pension as previously mentioned 6/15.6%

overtime will be paid at about £60 per hour of credit (which I still don’t understand properly).

As with most things at BA the rostering/Pay/contracts/agreements are so complicated it’s almost impossible to give you a straight forward answer to the question.

[GE115b]

Thanks for the figures.

Very surprising to be honest; a lot of people would be giving up commands on 737/320s if joining BA. I didn't realise that the pay cut you would have to take is so dramatic!

[clvf88]

Thanks for taking the time to post the numbers gents.

GE115B - agreed.

[Riskybis]

The pay isn’t the reason to get into BA , I honestly think the main reason people want to get into this weird outfit is to “fly the flag” , “to fly to serve” . Just awful :ugh:

[wiggy]

The pay isn’t the reason to get into BA , I honestly think the main reason people want to get into this weird outfit is to “fly the flag” , “to fly to serve” . Just awful :ugh:





If you think that is the “main” reason, or has even been on the radar of any of us had for joining BA in recent years or even 20 or 30 years ago I think you are to put it very politely very very badly mistaken. If you have gathered that opinion whilst working in BA I can only think have been keeping very strange company and I won’t ask what fleet you are on.

I’ve been in BA just a few decades and In all honesty I have never ever heard any crew (pilots or cabin crew) parroting those old and somewhat dated advertising slogans as their reason for joining....at all..ever.
.
More likely reasons for joining I have heard from my pilot colleagues are things like being based in the south east U.K, being able to fly the likes of the 747, 777, 787, even the 380....In days of old people joined in part because it was a company with a decent pension scheme, and a “world leading rostering system” (stop laughing at the back) and the Aspirational bid system was and is a plus because it still allows people to dabble in Shorthaul, move to Longhaul, see the world..etc.

Just my MHO though (oh, I do agree with your comment about pay)

[skaterboi]

The pay isn’t the reason to get into BA , I honestly think the main reason people want to get into this weird outfit is to “fly the flag” , “to fly to serve” . Just awful :ugh:

I've just heard I've been successful in my Sim Assessment and have a start date in the Spring. I'm coming to BA from the military and of all of my friends and colleagues who have also got in, not one has stated the reasons you cite for joining. Whilst the pay isn't stellar, it's not bad and is comparable to what we get now. For us, BA represents job security, excellent training, incremental pay (as many of us have topped out in the RAF), the ability to fly LH and get a 777,787 etc type rating, the ability to settle in one location and finally travel to destinations that don't require you to live in a tent and get shot at on a regular basis.

Whilst I concede that BA isn't going to perfect (show me a job that is), it'll do for me and I'm very happy to have made the grade. In the unlikely event that I don't like it, I'll move to somewhere else (and give 3 months notice, not 12).

[wiggy]

Skaterboi...Firstly congratulations...

... and finally travel to destinations that don't require you to.....get shot at on a regular basis.


Well...there is the return to ISB on the 787.........:E :E..., that aside you will find there are some “interesting destinations” with security issues at ground level, plus silly stuff like the odd scud thrown in the very general direction of RUH from time to time and at least one other occasionally “hot” ME destination where one has been known to have to take cover...but I do take your point :ok:

[VinRouge]

Skaterboi...Firstly congratulations...

Well...there is the return to ISB on the 787.........:E :E..., that aside you will find there are some “interesting destinations” with security issues at ground level, plus silly stuff like the odd scud thrown in the very general direction of RUH from time to time and at least one other occasionally “hot” ME destination where one has been known to have to take cover...but I do take your point :ok:


Need to increase Cap to these destinations then and make them more enticing for some of those enjoying the golf too often down in Jo Berg!

[red9]

The pay isn’t the reason to get into BA , I honestly think the main reason people want to get into this weird outfit is to “fly the flag” , “to fly to serve” . Just awful :ugh:

Really - Trust me there are many/some on the SH fleet........particularly two stripers......

[wiggy]

Oh well...I stand corrected .. I’ve never witnessed that myself ....are you actually literally hearing people saying e.g. they joined “ to fly the flag” or similar...:yuk: ??? I’ve never even heard the real real youngsters on the other side of the flight deck door -Mixed Fleet, regurgitate that sort of nonsense..

Maybe too much recruiting/exposure to some of our social media hero’s is causing this....I suggest we should make sure we continue to recruit more cynical/grounded old f*******:suspect: The Forces used to have a few...

[GS-Alpha]

I do not think there are especially many who joined purely because they wanted to fly the flag. There are plenty who assumed the ‘national flag carrier’ would have superior terms and conditions though.

[pilotpete123]

What will happen to crews as the 747 is withdrawn? Could someone join on the fleet and then be directed to any fleet without any consultation? I understand that during your fleet freeze you can be directed to any fleet but obviously this is more relevant on the 747.

[no sponsor]

Correct. You can get directed anywhere where BA wants. So you could in theory get booted off the 747 as the fleet reduces in size. That might be to SH. The 350 is going to replace the 747 on an hull for hull basis.

However, there might be enough guys bidding off the 747 to fill their requirements leaving you protected. I guess it’s a last resort thing. Some new guys were directed off the 380 a couple of years ago. If they have an oversupply of pilots on a fleet, they normally run a supplementary bid and people can put in their preference as to where they’d like to go. Happened on the 318 when they reduced the fleet to 1 aircraft a while back.

[GS-Alpha]

That could potentially happen Pete, but I personally doubt the 747 will run down in anything like the currently planned timescale.

[pilotpete123]

Thanks for that insight. Currently watching a fleet being retired at my current airline and the associated drama that brings. I can also relate to how a planned timescale means very little. Now oil has tanked again I can imagine they may well be around a little longer...

[Tricia Takanawa]

Thanks for that insight. Currently watching a fleet being retired at my current airline and the associated drama that brings. I can also relate to how a planned timescale means very little. Now oil has tanked again I can imagine they may well be around a little longer...

In probably my only positive post re BA so far, I have a few mates on the 767 who are obviously in the fleet retirement predicament at the moment. Obviously BA can do what they want during the first 5 years, but they are being released to their fleet of choice (777 & 747) after 3 years or less in BA, and are over the moon.

Also based on nothing but my humble opinion, if you joined in 2019, I don't foresee see you being directed off the jumbo due to fleet retirement during the initial engagement freeze. They are cash cows for BA at the moment with oil at $55 pb.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

What will happen to crews as the 747 is withdrawn? Could someone join on the fleet and then be directed to any fleet without any consultation? I understand that during your fleet freeze you can be directed to any fleet but obviously this is more relevant on the 747.

I joined onto the 767 as a rated DEP. As you may know, the 767 fleet has recently been retired so I (and others) faced a bit of an uncertain future when we entered official run down. During your initial 5 year engagement freeze the company can pretty much do what they like with you so we did have fears that we would be directed somewhere we didn't want to go, in our case that was SH Airbus. And tbh there's nothing we could have done about it (except bid off as unfrozen ASAP). Thankfully we were all given the opportunity to submit an aspirational bid in the usual way and were then processed accordingly.

Within reason we all got what we asked for or very close to it. The junior guys including me have largely ended up on the 777 and are very happy chappies after what has been a pretty awful couple of years for those at the bottom. Having done it once, I would avoid a dying fleet as far as humanly possible but I'm sure others will back me up when I say just get in, get your number and bide your time. The jumbo is the next to go but its a while off yet and it won't endure the same short haul pain the 767 did in its final 2 1/2 years.

Happy New Year all!

[3Greens]

I sadly didn’t get to the SIM have to wait a year to reapply. I have however changed my opinion of BA. I assumed the ‘national flag carrier’ had superior terms and conditions and had the thought of how amazing it would be to fly for BA. I do feel a bit naive now. I put a lot of work into prepping for BA but actually didn’t research T&Cs what’s it actually like etc. I now know people who have jumped to BA, I’m talking people I’ve worked with trained with, and the picture they paint is not what I had in my head. I was disappointed to not get to the SIM but I’m actually more disappointed in what I have learnt about BA. I was looking at it as that would be my forever airline but I feel the first 5 years at least would be so challenging, having a very young family, wife who wants to quit her job to be with family, would test us to the max. SH trips away seem inevitable and having seen rosters guys have sent me I feel EZY would be a better choice, command is quicker and pays more. LH doesn’t look as bad, you get few more days off but may have to wait 5 years to get LH and 15 years to command!!! Im mid thirties now at least 50 before command. I don’t plan on working in to my 60s. It took a heart attack for my dad(68) to stop work. Pay that’s not very good compared to how much money BA makes!!! Wife has to keep working so we can afford our bills/plan on early retirement.

I spent most of 2018 waiting for BA to open up recruitment and waiting for slots to stages 1 and 2 as that’s what I wanted I didn’t focus on much else apart from EK.
Maybe it’s because it’s 2019, 2018 went by so quickly, I need to be more proactive.
Happy New Year.

you won’t get a LH command at BA in 15years. Currently it’s sitting at around 19/20 years

[RexBanner]

you won’t get a LH command at BA in 15years. Currently it’s sitting at around 19/20 years
I think he means fifteen years after the initial 5 year wait to get long haul.

[VinRouge]

I think he means fifteen years after the initial 5 year wait to get long haul.
​​​​​​For many experienced pilots with a decade plus large aircraft command (particularly military), the decent FO pay scale and seniority system means that many consider a move straight to BA a release from ever having to bother with command again. Why would you want to go junior LH command again at 58? I'm considering a move to SH (potentialo command) after 10-15years once we are living closer to LHR. But then again, why bother?

​​​​With a small mil pension included, a move to RHS salary after a decade of military command with allowances is around a 17-20k pay rise. I sh#t you not. This is what you move across on.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The pay isn’t the reason to get into BA , I honestly think the main reason people want to get into this weird outfit is to “fly the flag” , “to fly to serve” . Just awful :ugh:
Wouldn't be surprised at all don't forget a lot of wannabie Nigels are fresh out of Flight School when they join BA.
At my last gaff there were 2 Low Hour FO's who told me on day 1 they were going to be at Gaff Airways for the rest of their life - Guess where they are now after 3 years....

[cessnapete]

​​​​​​For many experienced pilots with a decade plus large aircraft command (particularly military), the decent FO pay scale and seniority system means that many consider a move straight to BA a release from ever having to bother with command again. Why would you want to go junior LH command again at 58? I'm considering a move to SH (potentialo command) after 10-15years once we are living closer to LHR. But then again, why bother?

​​​​With a small mil pension included, a move to RHS salary after a decade of military command with allowances is around a 17-20k pay rise. I sh#t you not. This is what you move across on.

To counter the negatives re BA joiners, agree completely with VR. I relative of mine joined from the RAF DEP to BA LH.
Lifestyle and pay superior to previous, even after a wide body Command at 28 in RAF. The long wait for LH BA Capt not a problem and still able to live in the shires, only driving to the airport 4/5 times a month. On a small happy fleet and no chance of being shot at. The golf, even as junior on the fleet, good in JNB!!
The inital pay and Command prospects may be better in ie Ezy but they have no wish to do a life time (No change with a Command except pay) of multiple sectors daily out of Gwk/ Ltn, no night stops, and have to live close to an airport.
Of course that is available in BA SH where Command is available much sooner.
“Horses for courses!!”
Although it surprises me that BALPA has seemingly trashed the LH aspirations of many SH copilots by allowing out of Seniority movement direct to LH.

[blimey]

SH and LH in either seat, whatever fleet you're on, it's a lot better if you relax and come to work with a smile on your face. The flying's better SH, the lifestyle better LH. More pressure in the LHS than the RHS.

Whatever, there's no better view out of the office window whichever company you work for, even if you're shagged out.

[Venco]

Hi everyone, just doing some research on BA and after reading this thread getting a bit curious about what’s wise. i obviously read about the salary scaled and stuff, but currently being in the LHS on a shorthaul airline I would like to know how big of a paycut I would have to take moving to RHS LH.
Someone here who is able to tell me what net pay to expect monthly as a year 1 LH FO? Including the flightpay/time away from base?
Main reason to apply would be the LH experience which I would never get at my current employer, but I would like to know how big the money sacrifice would have to be..

[Phantom4]

Venco,there is no guarantee you would be offered LH aircraft.It is assessed on your ability to adapt effectively to the aircraft that they are using for sim assessment at the time,not solely on hours accrued and is non negotiable unless it suits BA.

[Black Pudding]

Main reason to apply would be the LH experience which I would never get at my current employer, but I would like to know how big the money sacrifice would have to be..

The thought of having to spend a long time in a flight deck to then have 24 hours off in a different time zone, getting through airport security twice and travel to and from a hotel room does not appeal to me. I really don’t get it.

[Jwscud]

6 hours chatting, great view of Manhattan, sleep, wake up early well rested, jog round Central Park, walk the high line, nice lunch, snooze, awful night flight home, drive h9me, to back to sleep or a few hours and back in synch. Long haul has its good and bad points but you spend time (away from the family, true) being a tourist in some cool places. Even the rubbish layovers can be a really good time with the right mix. You can take your family away on a trip easily enough - I have done Christmas in New York and New Years in San Francisco.

It sure as hell beats triple Dublin on a windy day.

[738BusDriver]

Hi all,

Is anyone doing stage 3 sim this coming Tuesday at 0930?

[CessNah]

Hi all,

Hope you're all doing well and a happy New Year to you all. I know this is a bit of a random and off topic question but I've been wondering with regards to BA's SOPs and policies, how much manual flying do you folks get to do on the line? I very vaguely know about the monitored approaches that are performed on every approach, does this prevent you guys from being able to hand fly your approaches?

Best Regards!

[student88]

In all honesty I think it's down to the individual and the SOPs have never made me feel like I shouldn't fly the aircraft. Most guys in the left hand seat are encouraging.

[Doug E Style]

I very vaguely know about the monitored approaches that are performed on every approach, does this prevent you guys from being able to hand fly your approaches?

No, it doesn’t.

[CessNah]

In all honesty I think it's down to the individual and the SOPs have never made me feel like I shouldn't fly the aircraft. Most guys in the left hand seat are encouraging.
Thank you for the swift reply, appreciate the insight!

[cessnapete]

No, it doesn’t.


Well sort of!
Friend on BA LH says even in CAVOK on his Fleet, most pilots only disconnect the autopilot between 500/1000ft on a manual landing. Not forgetting of course, on all Fleets except the B744, you are forbidden by rigid SOPs to control your speed manually using the thrust levers. Auto throttle mandated for continuous use in flight until the landing flare.

[ETOPS]

Auto throttle mandated for continuous use in flight until the landing flare.

I did 4 years in command on the 777 with BA before transferring to the 747 so have seen both systems. The '77 is FBW so no pitch/power couple when altering thrust. Hand flying around the Caribbean is a pleasure I will never forget. This is because the autothrust works very well and always "has your back" with smooth adjustments to keep you on speed. I even liked the little nudge you felt through the levers at 25R which was the start of thrust reduction - it was a great clue to commence a gentle pitch up.
The 747 was a previous generation so autothrust wasn't as smooth and I found I could do a much better job fully manual. The trick was to pick your moment - two crew early morning arrival into LHR being a great excuse............to autoland!!

[GS-Alpha]

I am on the 747 and love flying manually, but whilst I tend to fly until about FL150 on departure, it is incredibly rare that I fly a manual approach as P2. This is not due to SOPs, but because we are generally just too knackered by the end of the flight. There is not so much enjoyment to be found in anything when you are desperately wishing you were in your bed. I and many others used to fly manual approaches, back before EASA FTLs and final assign, but in my experience it is very rare nowadays. Who knows, perhaps JSS will end up leaving us less tired again, and we will be able to return to the days of manual approaches?

[cessnapete]

I did 4 years in command on the 777 with BA before transferring to the 747 so have seen both systems. The '77 is FBW so no pitch/power couple when altering thrust. Hand flying around the Caribbean is a pleasure I will never forget. This is because the autothrust works very well and always "has your back" with smooth adjustments to keep you on speed. I even liked the little nudge you felt through the levers at 25R which was the start of thrust reduction - it was a great clue to commence a gentle pitch up.
The 747 was a previous generation so autothrust wasn't as smooth and I found I could do a much better job fully manual. The trick was to pick your moment - two crew early morning arrival into LHR being a great excuse............to autoland!!

Not normally a Pedant, but manual / hand flying is defined as controlling the speed and flightpath.

[birdstrike]

Couldn't agree more. If you don't do both, are you a pilot or merely a systems operator?

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I am on the 747 and love flying manually, but whilst I tend to fly until about FL150 on departure, it is incredibly rare that I fly a manual approach as P2. This is not due to SOPs, but because we are generally just too knackered by the end of the flight. There is not so much enjoyment to be found in anything when you are desperately wishing you were in your bed. I and many others used to fly manual approaches, back before EASA FTLs and final assign, but in my experience it is very rare nowadays. Who knows, perhaps JSS will end up leaving us less tired again, and we will be able to return to the days of manual approaches?


Please avail the differences from the good old days to the days now with EASA FTL. I must be missing a trick here - you mean 3 crew ops iso 4 maybe? There are plenty of limits under EASA that are more restrictive than CAP371 your not missing the FE are you?

[GS-Alpha]

I mean trip two days off followed by trip two days off, and repeat with FA should you try and create a block of days off so you can recover. If you were given such a string of work in the past, you could at least swap a trip to a back to back, giving you 4 days off afterwards for decent recovery (not ideal, but considerably less fatiguing than 2 days off continuously).

[student88]

Couldn't agree more. If you don't do both, are you a pilot or merely a systems operator?

.......eh?

[zero/zero]

Couldn't agree more. If you don't do both, are you a pilot or merely a systems operator?

A modern pilot is both. He/she is also employed to carry out their duties in accordance with whatever SOPs their employer has deemed safest/most efficient

[Northern Monkey]

Couldn't agree more. If you don't do both, are you a pilot or merely a systems operator?

Off topic alert.

You're a pilot. Just because we don't spend our days wrestling with the controls in the same way as we might have in the past doesn't mean the job hasn't evolved and developed new challenges. For starters, 900 hrs/year is now a target not a limit. Fatigue is a real concern these days. Automation has changed the industry. Most jobs are evolving all the time at the end of the day.

[hans brinker]

Just curious, flew there for 8yr, now 15 yr in the US. Back then I felt everyone in the US was working much harder, and often for less pay. Has that totally changed around? I honestly don' think I have to work too hard, and I have a lot of flexibility, can drop down to zero or pick up to the legal limit. Normal schedule for me is 3 4-day and a 3-day. TAFB 250 hours, block 65/70 hours, credit 70/75 hours. Add some other pay stuff so total around $200K/yr before tax, excluding company pension contribution, and I am a 6yr captain at the bottom paying loco. It sounds like everyone there is sick of the job....

[Venco]

Venco,there is no guarantee you would be offered LH aircraft.It is assessed on your ability to adapt effectively to the aircraft that they are using for sim assessment at the time,not solely on hours accrued and is non negotiable unless it suits BA.
Hi Phantom, I am aware of that. Doesn’t mean though that I will accept the job offer if it’s shorthaul. Hence my curiosity to net pay on LH :-) Unfortunately no news yet.

[Phantom4]

Good luck Venco.My advice,the answer’s yes,even if SH offer.I have known a crew on day three 744 being politely asked to relocate to the 320 CBT

[NLP]

Hi Venco,

As a fellow Dutch guy my advice would be to say no to SH and yes to LH. Unless you're at a very bad place at the moment, only then I would say yes to SH.

To answer your question:
Basic pay year 1: £58.847
Allowances: Just under £20.000 (standing by to be corrected).

Net is hard to say. Depends on your tax situation in the UK/Netherlands.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

I mean trip two days off followed by trip two days off, and repeat with FA should you try and create a block of days off so you can recover. If you were given such a string of work in the past, you could at least swap a trip to a back to back, giving you 4 days off afterwards for decent recovery (not ideal, but considerably less fatiguing than 2 days off continuously).
EASA FTL doesn't like back to back trips especially at home base as it forces the operator to give crews hotel accommodation (if my memory serves me right). This might be OK at BA but at other UK AOC's it's frowned upon especially as Mr Tax man see's it as a taxable benefit. The other issue which I know from experience is those crews that live close to base often seem happy with such rosters whereas those using the C word don't....

[GS-Alpha]

I know EASA doesn’t allow them. You asked me to explain how EASA changed things so I did.

[Vokes55]

Looking at the 777/787 DEP recruitment, Is there any reason why BA don’t offer a LGW base on the 777? I believe there will be 14 aircraft based at Gatwick this Summer, so it’s a sizeable operation.

Given the destinations, some longer trips and the fact it’s not LHR, this would certainly be an attractive prospect in an airline that, by most accounts on this thread, is quickly running out of attractive prospects.

[wiggy]

Looking at the 777/787 DEP recruitment, Is there any reason why BA don’t offer a LGW base on the 777? I believe there will be 14 aircraft based at Gatwick this Summer, so it’s a sizeable operation.

Given the destinations, some longer trips and the fact it’s not LHR, this would certainly be an attractive prospect in an airline that, by most accounts on this thread, is quickly running out of attractive prospects.





Unless you are going to crew it with pilots on reduced T&Cs I don’t really see what’s in it for the company...it’s not as if Flight Ops has problems getting people to volunteer to do the work.

There are plenty on the 777 fleet who bid specifically for the LGW work and by a combination of both bidding and swopping trips are in reality pretty much Gatwick based.

[cycles gladiator]

Hi, now that DEP has opened up for LGW on 320, would anyone be able to give me an example roster.
The few trips they do and the pros and cons of choosing Lgw over Lhr.
Many thanks

[buzzc152]

I’ve been waiting since mid December for some stage 2 dates to be offered. Anyone know what’s going on ?

[C212-100]

Hi,

Any chance to get an idea on the A380 fleet standard rosters? How many trips a month? If someone could share a few A380 rosters, I would very much thankful.

Cheers!

[wiggy]

Hello Everyone,

I'm contemplating applying for DEP at LHR and would like to be on LH.
Can someone please enlighten me on how many trips a month can be expected, their duration and time off between
trips?


That depends:

Trip lengths..anything from the odd/rare one day outliers, most trips are 3,4 or 5 day, max at the moment is the SYD trip (currently on the 777 ) which touches 9 days (departs evening of day one, gets back into LHR AM of day 9).

Time off between generally a minimum of two clear days, though in certain circumstances with certain trips it may be possible to opt to reduce time at base to a local night..OTOH the aforementioned Sydney trip demands 4 days/5 local nights off at base due to FTL constraints.

In very simplistic terms in a month with no leave embedded you possibly end up with 5 or 6 of the short (e.g. 2 or three day) trips, or say 3 or 4 of the longer trips.

[Vokes55]

Unless you are going to crew it with pilots on reduced T&Cs I don’t really see what’s in it for the company...it’s not as if Flight Ops has problems getting people to volunteer to do the work.

There are plenty on the 777 fleet who bid specifically for the LGW work and by a combination of both bidding and swopping trips are in reality pretty much Gatwick based.



I assume with EASA FTLs, the positioning from LHR to LGW needs to be shown. So an immediate benefit to the company is a reduction in duty hours spent (not) on the M25. I don't know exactly what arrangements BA have for pilots operating from LGW (HOTAC, taxis if required?) to comment further. What's the current benefit to the company of having all 777 drivers based in LHR?

For me personally, and I know I'm not alone, it's the difference between applying and not. One less CV to throw in the bin I suppose.

[wiggy]

I assume with EASA FTLs, the positioning from LHR to LGW needs to be shown. So an immediate benefit to the company is a reduction in duty hours spent (not) on the M25. I don't know exactly what arrangements BA have for pilots operating from LGW (HOTAC, taxis if required?) to comment further. What's the current benefit to the company of having all 777 drivers based in LHR?

For me personally, and I know I'm not alone, it's the difference between applying and not. One less CV to throw in the bin I suppose.

1. There is nil positioning. The company/Union agreement, approved by the CAA, is that if you have a LGW trip on your roster you make your own way to Crew report at Gatwick, i.e. your report is at LGW. FWIW a significant number of Longhaul pilots live around the Gatwick area anyway and for them a Gatwick report is easier than heading around the M25 to LHR.

2. Yes there is an agreement for a hotel room (but no allowances) if the individual requests it, but again because many of the “locals” elect to bid for the LGW work I’m not how many actually take the option.

I’m not sure why there not being a Gatwick stand-alone 777 base is a deal breaker for you....there is nothing to stop you applying to BA and seeing if you can get an offer of the T7...if that worked out then you’d be in a position to bid for the Gatwick work, as long as it continues.

[RexBanner]

I assume with EASA FTLs, the positioning from LHR to LGW needs to be shown. So an immediate benefit to the company is a reduction in duty hours spent (not) on the M25. I don't know exactly what arrangements BA have for pilots operating from LGW (HOTAC, taxis if required?) to comment further. What's the current benefit to the company of having all 777 drivers based in LHR?

For me personally, and I know I'm not alone, it's the difference between applying and not. One less CV to throw in the bin I suppose.

LGW and LHR are less than 45 miles away from each other and much less than 90 minutes apart most of the time (M25 dependent of course). Plus 777 Pilots do not report at Heathrow they report straight to Gatwick so there is no impact on duty times or FTLs. Anyone at the bottom of the P2 List hoping to get more than one Gatwick trip (at least pre swaps) every three to four months or so is likely to be disappointed.

[Vokes55]

Thanks for clearing that up, wiggy.


Anyone at the bottom of the P2 List hoping to get more than one Gatwick trip (at least pre swaps) every three to four months or so is likely to be disappointed.


Pretty much what I expected. Even the JFK?

[Wakarider]

Hi,

Any chance to get an idea on the A380 fleet standard rosters? How many trips a month? If someone could share a few A380 rosters, I would very much thankful.

Cheers!

Fairly straightforward C212 you’ll get a combination of somewhere between 3-4 trips each month. The fleet has it’s Western Cowboys doing the LA’s and SFO’s Chinese Barons doing SIN and HKG’s and the golfers doing the JNB’s. There is a lot of swapping going on under JSS. As a DEP you won’t get the variety that the Boeing’s do or the Cinderella (A350) fleet eventually. That can be good or bad depending on what you want to do.

[fruitbat]

380 fleet is certainly the one to be on for a new joiner. All good trips and no low credit 2 crew stuff in winter at least. If the 350 launch route crewmour is true, it won’t be half as glamorous!

[Flap33]

Actually, the FDP is reduced by 1 hour when operating out of LGW on 777... apparently assumes you've driven from LHR

[Capt Ecureuil]

I assume with EASA FTLs, the positioning from LHR to LGW needs to be shown. So an immediate benefit to the company is a reduction in duty hours spent (not) on the M25. I don't know exactly what arrangements BA have for pilots operating from LGW (HOTAC, taxis if required?) to comment further. What's the current benefit to the company of having all 777 drivers based in LHR?

For me personally, and I know I'm not alone, it's the difference between applying and not. One less CV to throw in the bin I suppose.

Why knowing the benefit to the company makes the difference to you applying or not... strange.

I think the answer to your question however is probably flexibility, with more trips rumoured to be going down there who knows.

Looking at the P2 777 list very little LGW work seems to go down to the juniors and if it did ever go to a Beach Fleet on current terms then I think the bids would go senior so I would save that CV for when Level takes it over.

[C212-100]

Fairly straightforward C212 you’ll get a combination of somewhere between 3-4 trips each month. The fleet has it’s Western Cowboys doing the LA’s and SFO’s Chinese Barons doing SIN and HKG’s and the golfers doing the JNB’s. There is a lot of swapping going on under JSS. As a DEP you won’t get the variety that the Boeing’s do or the Cinderella (A350) fleet eventually. That can be good or bad depending on what you want to do.

Dear Wakarider,

Thank you very much for your reply. So, I assume for those getting DEP into the A380 would a fairly feasible commuting position, even if very junior and even if commuting from the Western Europe. Is my assumption correct or way off?

Cheers and again, thank you!

[C212-100]

380 fleet is certainly the one to be on for a new joiner. All good trips and no low credit 2 crew stuff in winter at least. If the 350 launch route crewmour is true, it won’t be half as glamorous!

Thank you fruitbat,

Any chance to go deeper into what the a350 is supposed to be getting tripwise?

Thanks!

[wiggy]

Actually, the FDP is reduced by 1 hour when operating out of LGW on 777... apparently assumes you've driven from LHR

Ah, thanks, as in the specific Box A tables in Bidline rules?..(.there’s also the one hour non-control NCP, )

[Stocious]

Thank you fruitbat,

Any chance to go deeper into what the a350 is supposed to be getting tripwise?

Thanks!

Nobody really knows yet. All rumours at current, even those going onto it first.

[rotordisk]

Can someone clarify; to be considered for airbus F/O long haul you need to have 500 hrs on 350/380?
There are no long haul seats offered to those without long haul experience?

[Vokes55]

Why knowing the benefit to the company makes the difference to you applying or not... strange.
.

You’ve misinterpreted my post. I meant that offering an LGW-only base on the triple is the difference between applying or not, not any individual reasons why it does or doesn’t exist.

As for why that makes a difference, well I drive past Gatwick on my way to Heathrow.

[Emma Royds]

With there being no exclusive LGW base on the triple, I guess that makes the decision-making process of whether to apply or not, a little easier? :E

[Vokes55]

Correct :ok:

[Wakarider]

Dear Wakarider,

Thank you very much for your reply. So, I assume for those getting DEP into the A380 would a fairly feasible commuting position, even if very junior and even if commuting from the Western Europe. Is my assumption correct or way off?

Cheers and again, thank you!

G’day C212,

No worries, looking at a few rosters I’d say from a commuting perspective, from Europe. The A380 would be the best fleet when you start out.

Cheers PM if I can help you out more

🤙🏾🤙🏾🤙🏾

[pilotting]

That depends:

Trip lengths..anything from the odd/rare one day outliers, most trips are 3,4 or 5 day, max at the moment is the SYD trip (currently on the 777 ) which touches 9 days (departs evening of day one, gets back into LHR AM of day 9).

Time off between generally a minimum of two clear days, though in certain circumstances with certain trips it may be possible to opt to reduce time at base to a local night..OTOH the aforementioned Sydney trip demands 4 days/5 local nights off at base due to FTL constraints.

In very simplistic terms in a month with no leave embedded you possibly end up with 5 or 6 of the short (e.g. 2 or three day) trips, or say 3 or 4 of the longer trips.





Wiggy, or anyone else who knows. Could you provide some examples of trip rotations. E.g. LAX, Singapore, Johannesburg? is that a 4/3? (just guessing)? Delhi 3/3?
thanks!

[GS-Alpha]

BA does not work 4/3 or anything of that nature. Bidline rules currently give you a minimum 2 days off after a long haul trip, or you’ll get EASA rest if that requires longer. Bidline days off can be waived when bidding, but EASA obviously cannot (although you can bid for back to backs as long as you pay for and use the company supplied hotel). When you bid, you can request more days off, but that does not mean you will get them.

People regularly ask for typical rosters on here, but typical rosters do not really exist because they very much depend upon seniority. Typically, I would say new entrants can expect a trip then two days off, continuously, with the odd three days off perhaps once every month or two. The frequency of two days off in between trips depends on fleet, monthly CAP and the credit/length of the trips you are managing to pick up. If you work on 2 days off all the time, you might be pleasantly surprised and do a little bit better than that, but in order to join with your eyes open, you need to assume just two days off is typical or you will almost certainly be disappointed with your move.

[bringbackthe80s]

BA does not work 4/3 or anything of that nature. Bidline rules currently give you a minimum 2 days off after a long haul trip, or you’ll get EASA rest if that requires longer. Bidline days off can be waived when bidding, but EASA obviously cannot (although you can bid for back to backs as long as you pay for and use the company supplied hotel). When you bid, you can request more days off, but that does not mean you will get them.

People regularly ask for typical rosters on here, but typical rosters do not really exist because they very much depend upon seniority. Typically, I would say new entrants can expect a trip then two days off, continuously, with the odd three days off perhaps once every month or two. The frequency of two days off in between trips depends on fleet, monthly CAP and the credit/length of the trips you are managing to pick up. If you work on 2 days off all the time, you might be pleasantly surprised and do a little bit better than that, but in order to join with your eyes open, you need to assume just two days off is typical or you will almost certainly be disappointed with your move.


Sounds tempting

[RexBanner]

Looking at the P2 777 list very little LGW work seems to go down to the juniors and if it did ever go to a Beach Fleet on current terms then I think the bids would go senior so I would save that CV for when Level takes it over.

Good job you’re not in charge of revenue management for IAG. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there is not a cat in hell’s chance Level is going to replace the beach fleet. For emphasis not a chance in hell. The premium cabins are always full and make BA/IAG a fortune.

Let me get this straight, you seriously think the management are so stupid that they’ll trash all of that yield and reduce their profits significantly just to spitefully reduce Pilots’ Ts and Cs? Not happening. The fear around Level is ridiculous and unwarranted.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Good job you’re not in charge of revenue management for IAG. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there is not a cat in hell’s chance Level is going to replace the beach fleet. For emphasis not a chance in hell. The premium cabins are always full and make BA/IAG a fortune.

Let me get this straight, you seriously think the management are so stupid that they’ll trash all of that yield and reduce their profits significantly just to spitefully reduce Pilots’ Ts and Cs? Not happening. The fear around Level is ridiculous and unwarranted.



Whoa! Down boy.

Touchy nerve or something. I'm quite aware of the loads thanks although I wouldn't spout about them on here, as for management stupidity, well I'll hold those views to myself.

My comment "I would save that CV for when Level takes it over." as I think most would have read was tongue in cheek. Vokes55 was looking purely for a 777 LGW roster or a 777 LGW base, tell me that my answer wasn't accurate......

But then again who knows for sure what new aircraft / routes and in what colour the future brings.... ��

EDIT
Rex.... We called their bluff on a LH LGW base a number of years ago if you remember.

[RexBanner]

I’m making the point because there’s some people who genuinely believe that level are a threat to their livelihoods and take that fear into industrial negotiations with IAG and are afraid to call their bluff. No more no less.

[hunterboy]

I wouldn't put it past the management to hand over the routes and/or aircraft to Level at LGW. How long would it take to refit a Level aircraft to put a Club seat in?
This company cares more for cutting costs than growing or maintaining revenue, even at the price of long term damage to the brand.

[bex88]

Integrate bmi or we will set up BA express

SH must be more efficient or else all investment will go to Vueling

Invest for today, invest in your future so we can pay shareholders today.

Level this, level that. Norwegian etc etc. Never, Lufthansa, KLM, American etc

We need to be sensible, after all how many cars are built at Longbridge now? But we also need to share in the success we are delivering and have confidence in our value to IAG. Let’s not sell ourselves short. Have confidence in the value we provide and the power of the brand.

Anyway, if BA want to be competitive with Easyjet and Ryanair then they need to start paying us better and working us less. 😉

[cycles gladiator]

Hi, now that DEP has opened up for LGW on 320, would anyone be able to give me an example roster.
The few trips they do and the pros and cons of choosing Lgw over Lhr.
Many thanks

Anybody? Would be good to know what the trips are from LGW on Airbus.

[pilotting]

Integrate bmi or we will set up BA express

SH must be more efficient or else all investment will go to Vueling

Invest for today, invest in your future so we can pay shareholders today.

Level this, level that. Norwegian etc etc. Never, Lufthansa, KLM, American etc

We need to be sensible, after all how many cars are built at Longbridge now? But we also need to share in the success we are delivering and have confidence in our value to IAG. Let’s not sell ourselves short. Have confidence in the value we provide and the power of the brand.

Anyway, if BA want to be competitive with Easyjet and Ryanair then they need to start paying us better and working us less. 😉


is there already more known on the cla proposal that the unions did; profit share and the salary Increase? The union/ balpa proposal was submitted beginning of december right?

[eckhard]

Anybody? Would be good to know what the trips are from LGW on Airbus.
January Trips for BA Airbus out of LGW.

Just a snap-shot. Other listings are available.

(*means some are night-stop, **means some include a stand-over day):




AGP

SVQ

PMI*

JER*

ALG

GVA

SZG

EDI*

EDI**

INN

TRN

FAO

VCE

FCO

AMS

NCE

GLA*

GNB

BOD

GOA

NAP

LYS

FNC

ACE

TIA

FDH

NUE

RAK

BCN

MLA

TFS

VLC

CGN

DBV

OPO







​​​​​​​

[cycles gladiator]

Thanks eckhard. Appreciated.

[thetimesreader84]

Just one correction to the above; there’s no PMI night stop, just a night flight in summer I believe.

[LeMoul]

Hi all, was at the first stage on December 3rd and was successful. Haven't heard about stage 2 yet, except as mentioned earlier. Which means BA released one slot for the 3rd of January and that was it. Is it the same for you guys?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[aceman18]

Hi all, was at the first stage on December 3rd and was successful. Haven't heard about stage 2 yet, except as mentioned earlier. Which means BA released one slot for the 3rd of January and that was it. Is it the same for you guys?

Thanks a lot in advance.
There was a slot that opened up on the 29th of Jan for a microsecond .

[LeMoul]

Thanks for the info! I’m checking the website every hour or so, and still I missed it... it’s quite incredible. Any feedback most welcome for those who were there lately.

Cheers

[C212-100]

Hi everybody,

I just got the invitation to be assessed. Can anyone be kind enough to let me know what Stage 1 consists of? What about Stage 2?

I have the option of doing only a Stage 1 day or a date that comprises both Stage 1 and Stage 2 on the same day. Does it make sense to take a day where you can do both? Or from your experience you would avoid the extra work?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers!

[clvf88]

Hi everybody,

I just got the invitation to be assessed. Can anyone be kind enough to let me know what Stage 1 consists of? What about Stage 2?

I have the option of doing only a Stage 1 day or a date that comprises both Stage 1 and Stage 2 on the same day. Does it make sense to take a day where you can do both? Or from your experience you would avoid the extra work?

Thank you in advance.

Cheers!

Stage 1 - Maths paper, verbal reasoning paper and a 'capacity test' style game on a computer
Stage 2 - Interview and Group Ex.

Personally, I'd have definitely elected to do Stage 1 and 2 on the same day if given the choice. I don't think theres much you can do to prep for Stage 1 - and you'll be out in a couple of hours if you do it on its own. Also, as you'll see from other comments on here, there are limited days available and it can be hard to get one that coincides with time off work. All told, I had nearly 2 months between stage 1 and 2 which will cost you a good number of places on the seniority list with the current level of recruitment.

Good luck!

[MikeAlpha320]

As others have said above don't come here for SH. You'd have to be somewhere pretty bad to better off. FTL's are targets and I've never been so close to 60 hours duty/ 7 days more than I have been here. I made the mistake of leaving ezy for BA short haul and IMHO you're not better off. More work for similar pay. Fatigue isn't a recognised concept here and you'll get patronising comments from management telling you to bid for more days off.

As always its each to their own- long term there is more variety and yes the staff travel for Long Haul is a nice addition. Come here for short haul and you will probably be on the airbus for at least 5 years and with all the Long haul DEP possibly even longer. Even when your freeze is up you still need seniority for it. That currently sits about 3400 and as a new joiner you will be somewhere about 4400. Who knows how long it will take. What is long haul even going to look like in 5/6/7 years? BA are after productivity and you bet the workforce here will give it. Never seen so many people offering days off at a pretty embarrassing market rate (330£/day LGW FO) and coming in on days off to 'help-out' when we get extended none of it back.

You can blame BALPA for the huge decline in T&C's here but we are the only ones to blame from what I've seen in a short period of time IMHO. Its look after number 1- the division amongst us as a work force is genuinely quite depressing at times. LHR/LGW SH/LH PP24/34 BARP/NAPS just to name a few. Company have cleverly manipulated the pilots into this position where will they pick away until there is very little left with almost little to no response from us. I remember reading about what people were willing to do to defend NAPS, Bidline e.t.c but surprise surprise where are they both now?

I'm sure there will be plenty along to tell you how great 24 hours in Cairo/Beirut/Tel-Aviv is (:E) and spending every weekend sat in Pret at T5.. at least you can wear your hat and tell everyone you work for BA! :D If you're lucky enough you might even get to come in unpaid on days off to be a pilot ambassador ;)

Ok, I'll stop now. Its each to their own- I don't see why you would leave other UK (stable) SH operators to come here and I suppose I'd like people to know what I now know about lifestyle on BA short haul. Probably just bitter and don't want to work 85 hours in February when LGW winter is 'Quiet'.

[Enzo999]

As others have said above don't come here for SH. You'd have to be somewhere pretty bad to better off. FTL's are targets and I've never been so close to 60 hours duty/ 7 days more than I have been here. I made the mistake of leaving ezy for BA short haul and IMHO you're not better off. More work for similar pay. Fatigue isn't a recognised concept here and you'll get patronising comments from management telling you to bid for more days off.

As always its each to their own- long term there is more variety and yes the staff travel for Long Haul is a nice addition. Come here for short haul and you will probably be on the airbus for at least 5 years and with all the Long haul DEP possibly even longer. Even when your freeze is up you still need seniority for it. That currently sits about 3400 and as a new joiner you will be somewhere about 4400. Who knows how long it will take. What is long haul even going to look like in 5/6/7 years? BA are after productivity and you bet the workforce here will give it. Never seen so many people offering days off at a pretty embarrassing market rate (330£/day LGW FO) and coming in on days off to 'help-out' when we get extended none of it back.

You can blame BALPA for the huge decline in T&C's here but we are the only ones to blame from what I've seen in a short period of time IMHO. Its look after number 1- the division amongst us as a work force is genuinely quite depressing at times. LHR/LGW SH/LH PP24/34 BARP/NAPS just to name a few. Company have cleverly manipulated the pilots into this position where will they pick away until there is very little left with almost little to no response from us. I remember reading about what people were willing to do to defend NAPS, Bidline e.t.c but surprise surprise where are they both now?

I'm sure there will be plenty along to tell you how great 24 hours in Cairo/Beirut/Tel-Aviv is (:E) and spending every weekend sat in Pret at T5.. at least you can wear your hat and tell everyone you work for BA! :D If you're lucky enough you might even get to come in unpaid on days off to be a pilot ambassador ;)

Ok, I'll stop now. Its each to their own- I don't see why you would leave other UK (stable) SH operators to come here and I suppose I'd like people to know what I now know about lifestyle on BA short haul. Probably just bitter and don't want to work 85 hours in February when LGW winter is 'Quiet'.

Agreed, been said lots of times before but please think long and hard before coming here on to SH. We are not making this stuff up, it’s bleak really bleak!!!

[blimey]

You can blame BALPA for the huge decline in T&C's

Yes you can. And you'd be right to do so.

[Callsign Kilo]

I would like to query this; when you joined BA short haul at LHR on PP34, what exactly did you expect? Exactly why leave somewhere like EZY with stable fixed rostering, regional basings and better and fairer command prospects? The misery of BA SH at Heathrow as been long publicised; certainly for those at the ass end of the list. I’m not having a go, I’m just interested to hear the thought process? I can just about get the LH arguement however anyone doing a straight swap from the orange brigade to BA SH in the last 3 or so years must know something that most don’t?!

[FACoff]

As others have said above don't come here for SH. You'd have to be somewhere pretty bad to better off. FTL's are targets and I've never been so close to 60 hours duty/ 7 days more than I have been here. I made the mistake of leaving ezy for BA short haul and IMHO you're not better off. More work for similar pay. Fatigue isn't a recognised concept here and you'll get patronising comments from management telling you to bid for more days off.

As always its each to their own- long term there is more variety and yes the staff travel for Long Haul is a nice addition. Come here for short haul and you will probably be on the airbus for at least 5 years and with all the Long haul DEP possibly even longer. Even when your freeze is up you still need seniority for it. That currently sits about 3400 and as a new joiner you will be somewhere about 4400. Who knows how long it will take. What is long haul even going to look like in 5/6/7 years? BA are after productivity and you bet the workforce here will give it. Never seen so many people offering days off at a pretty embarrassing market rate (330£/day LGW FO) and coming in on days off to 'help-out' when we get extended none of it back.

You can blame BALPA for the huge decline in T&C's here but we are the only ones to blame from what I've seen in a short period of time IMHO. Its look after number 1- the division amongst us as a work force is genuinely quite depressing at times. LHR/LGW SH/LH PP24/34 BARP/NAPS just to name a few. Company have cleverly manipulated the pilots into this position where will they pick away until there is very little left with almost little to no response from us. I remember reading about what people were willing to do to defend NAPS, Bidline e.t.c but surprise surprise where are they both now?

I'm sure there will be plenty along to tell you how great 24 hours in Cairo/Beirut/Tel-Aviv is (:E) and spending every weekend sat in Pret at T5.. at least you can wear your hat and tell everyone you work for BA! :D If you're lucky enough you might even get to come in unpaid on days off to be a pilot ambassador ;)

Ok, I'll stop now. Its each to their own- I don't see why you would leave other UK (stable) SH operators to come here and I suppose I'd like people to know what I now know about lifestyle on BA short haul. Probably just bitter and don't want to work 85 hours in February when LGW winter is 'Quiet'.

There's not much I can add to this, other than to say I'm afraid this has been my experience entirely. In a vain attempt to be positive, I do enjoy the trips/night stops, and some of the hotels are truly fantastic. But unfortunately this is almost totally eclipsed by the rest of the job.

As always, perspectives vary, and they'll invariably do so depending on where you came from. If your airline is dying or has been abusing you somehow, join. If not, I'd personally avoid it like the plague - unless you're desperate for long haul. Bear in mind though that JSS now destroys any kind of roster control for the juniors, irrespective of fleet. Short haul can be truly appalling - you'll have no control over days off and you'll find yourself switching between earlies and lates relentlessly, often with only one or two days off between. Equally some junior long haul rosters now appear to feature 6 full trips per month, again regularly with only a single day off between trips. How you manage any kind of home life with that kind of roster really is a mystery to me.

As I've seen mentioned before - don't get drawn in by being able to say you work for BA, calling yourself speedbird, or just going there because everyone else is. Think long and hard about it and ask yourself if it's really worth it.

[FACoff]

I can just about get the LH arguement however anyone doing a straight swap from the orange brigade to BA SH in the last 3 or so years must know something that most don’t?!

Yep, they know they'll get double the pay they had during the lower ranks of EZY. How about leaving for future prospects? You're only ever going to do day trips at EZY, for the rest of time, on the 320. Admittedly for good money and potentially at regional bases. Some aspire to more though.

Sadly of course things at BA have deteriorated so drastically that the above is actually becoming the more appealing option. You only have to look at the current recruitment options to see what BA are having to do to entice people in these days.

[Black Pudding]

You can blame BALPA for the huge decline in T&C's here but we are the only ones to blame from what I've seen in a short period of time IMHO. Its look after number 1- the division amongst us as a work force is genuinely quite depressing at times.

Apologise for posting in advance. I don’t and never have worked for BA, but have daily read this thread for the last few years.

Divide and conquer, I’m alright jack. If it does not effect me, I’ll ignore it. BA and easyJet management must be loving reading this thread. I used to work for Shell Aviation at Manchester Airport as a refueller. Many many years ago, the money earning potential for those guys was unreal. Then they offered the Shell guys a mega pay rise as long as they allowed a new rate in for new joiners, like a 2-3 tier pay scale. When the new joiners outnumbered the Shell guys, the Shell guys were made redundant and the work was contracted out to ASIG. Yes you now see them all over LHR and LGW.

BALPA is only as strong as its members. It all depends on how many I’m alright Jacks you have for anything to change or the number of staff leaving outstrips the number arriving and required. Why you would want to leave easyJet to go to BA I often wonder. You even have several pay scales for your cabin crew, again I’m alright Jack. Divide and conquer.

I once jump seated a flight many years ago before I gained my license. It was with Britannia and was just before they starting painting their aircraft a lighter shade of blue thomson.co.uk. I asked the Captain was he sad to lose the old name and colour scheme. His reply was he did not give a sh@t as longer as his terms and conditions don’t change. I’ll never forget it. Is flying for BA really any better than flying for easyJet in terms of pay, terms and conditions and base options. I even hear BA staff leaving to return to Jet2.

MikeAlpha320 is the best post I’ve read on here for ages and hits the nail on the head.

Good luck to all at BA. About time you backed BALPA and grew some.

[Doug E Style]

Apologise for posting in advance. I don’t and never have worked for BA, but have daily read this thread for the last few years.

Divide and conquer, I’m alright jack. If it does not effect me, I’ll ignore it. BA and easyJet management must be loving reading this thread. I used to work for Shell Aviation at Manchester Airport as a refueller. Many many years ago, the money earning potential for those guys was unreal. Then they offered the Shell guys a mega pay rise as long as they allowed a new rate in for new joiners, like a 2-3 tier pay scale. When the new joiners outnumbered the Shell guys, the Shell guys were made redundant and the work was contracted out to ASIG. Yes you now see them all over LHR and LGW.

BALPA is only as strong as its members. It all depends on how many I’m alright Jacks you have for anything to change or the number of staff leaving outstrips the number arriving and required. Why you would want to leave easyJet to go to BA I often wonder. You even have several pay scales for your cabin crew, again I’m alright Jack. Divide and conquer.

I once jump seated a flight many years ago before I gained my license. It was with Britannia and was just before they starting painting their aircraft a lighter shade of blue thomson.co.uk. I asked the Captain was he sad to lose the old name and colour scheme. His reply was he did not give a sh@t as longer as his terms and conditions don’t change. I’ll never forget it. Is flying for BA really any better than flying for easyJet in terms of pay, terms and conditions and base options. I even hear BA staff leaving to return to Jet2.

MikeAlpha320 is the best post I’ve read on here for ages and hits the nail on the head.

Good luck to all at BA. About time you backed BALPA and grew some.




I don’t know about people going back to Jet2 but at least three Airbus skippers left last year to go to Jet2. I suspect where they live played a part in the decision but at least one hated the prevailing atmosphere.

[wiggy]

As an important aside BA has finally started to publish advice to employees re BREXIT and it may have consequences for some planning on joining BA and “commuting”...

BA are now telling EU27 nationals (other than those with an Irish passport) to “consider your place of residency (where you live)”, since as it stands ATM the BA assessment of the UK government position is that if you are not settled in the U.K. post BREXIT you will not have the right to work in the U.K.....

Just a reminder to those not following U.K. politics in detail that if there is no agreement and no extension to the Article 50 process we are heading a non negotiated BREXIT that will occur at midnight Central European time, 29/30 March this year, and there will be no transition period.

[NLP]

Spot on MikeAlpha

I would like to query this; when you joined BA short haul at LHR on PP34, what exactly did you expect? Exactly why leave somewhere like EZY with stable fixed rostering, regional basings and better and fairer command prospects? The misery of BA SH at Heathrow as been long publicised; certainly for those at the ass end of the list. I’m not having a go, I’m just interested to hear the thought process? I can just about get the LH arguement however anyone doing a straight swap from the orange brigade to BA SH in the last 3 or so years must know something that most don’t?!

I left EZY to join BA before EASA FTL's kicked in (3 years ago) and pre-Brexit. When I joined BA £1,- was worth €1,40. And then some -(fill in yourself)- decided to leave the EU.

First year in BA was actually quite good but then someone decided we should stop recruiting..

Basically, 3 years ago things were different. Would I make the move to BA now? Definitely not.

[Jumbo2]

I don’t know about people going back to Jet2 but at least three Airbus skippers left last year to go to Jet2. I suspect where they live played a part in the decision but at least one hated the prevailing atmosphere.



That and with the bubble they where in at BA, having been part of the take-over a few years back, they were never going to be happy at BA. Some were promised a LBA base by Jet2 before they signed. However when the inkt on the contract was dry they were based in NCL.

I'm Shorthaul myself and coming from an airline different then EasyJet a few years back, I don't find BA SH that harsh. Maybe that was because I did my homework before I joined or maybe was it because with my previous airline the roster was not worth the paper it was written on (in the summer at the end of the month looking back at the given roster 89% of the rostered duties were completely different duties/flights compared to the original roster given) and with the BA rosters I manage to have a life outside work. During the JSS trail runs I was shocked by the rosters it produced, however now it has gone live it ain't that bad (pretty good actually). Looking at some of the junior ibid rosters they look very similar, if not better, as what I had when I was that junior. Some of the swap comments in iBid do make me laugh though. Being in the bottom 20% of the list complaining that you didn't get every weekend off (only 1). Maybe that has more to do with expectation management then JSS :8 or a generation thing; I want it all and I want it now!!:eek:

[WhatTheDeuce]

I joined BA from low cost and I’m a couple of percent from the bottom in the LHS on short haul.

I still find the work really straightforward compared to EZY - minimal stress, few weekends off so far under JSS. Busy in the summer but I’ve had either one or two weeks leave plus wraps in the school holidays every year since I’ve joined. Most half terms and a couple of Christmas weeks.

I try and do earlies and day trips / short night stops though. Did a few late tours on reserve and they drove me mad! Each to their own. Reasonable notice of your final roster and swapping is very common.

Still enjoy working here - especially so in the left seat where you don’t have to listen to the benefits of UKIP any more. Can’t say that I’ll be wearing that 100 badge any time soon though.

[Pickled]

Dutch pilots at BA are leaving for KLM, with 6 gone so far and more resignations from BA in the pipeline. There are many reasons for making such a move, but BA's audit of pilots who spend more than 90 minutes travelling to LHR can not have helped. Not many can afford to live comfortably in the south east of England these days.

[pilotting]

Spot on MikeAlpha



I left EZY to join BA before EASA FTL's kicked in (3 years ago) and pre-Brexit. When I joined BA £1,- was worth €1,40. And then some -(fill in yourself)- decided to leave the EU.

First year in BA was actually quite good but then someone decided we should stop recruiting..

Basically, 3 years ago things were different. Would I make the move to BA now? Definitely not.
But why would you not recommend moving to BA? There is growth coming up, preforming among the best in the market?

If you want to fly SH and LH then only Air France- KLM and Lufthansa remain. AFKL has almost no growth, financial performance is behind compared to the rest, costs are increasing instead of decreasing and fly also 850-900 hrs LH.

Lufthansa, might be a comparable option to BA., they have growth, good financial results. But also there you fly 850-900 hrs.
People always tend to act if everything is better at the airline they work for. But actually they do not tell you how they really feel. ‘’It is always better at the other side’’.

Our job is changing unfortunately and this is industry wide, unfortunately everywhere we see fatigue. I think the aggressive strategy of Lufthansa and BA is the only way to survive, because eventually we will get a new financial crisis . They start making reserves, which is good. If we talk money, then I fully agree; BA should align with the other legacies. Profit share and a significant pay increase. The same what happened with the other legacies.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Dutch pilots at BA are leaving for KLM, with 6 gone so far and more resignations from BA in the pipeline. There are many reasons for making such a move, but BA's audit of pilots who spend more than 90 minutes travelling to LHR can not have helped. Not many can afford to live comfortably in the south east of England these days.

Maybe the Norwegian crews based in AMS will join them now the AMS base is closing...
BA would be wise to speak to the UK AOC's with approved FRMS and how they handle the C word. You only need to talk to the sleepy folk that driving a car for 4 hours to work can be the same as sitting watching TV for 2hrs 30 mins and then driving in for 90 mins. It all depends on how (each) crewmembers manage their rest and how BA manage the % that take the pi$$.

[NLP]

Dutch pilots at BA are leaving for KLM, with 6 gone so far and more resignations from BA in the pipeline. There are many reasons for making such a move, but BA's audit of pilots who spend more than 90 minutes travelling to LHR can not have helped. Not many can afford to live comfortably in the south east of England these days.

It's 7 I believe and I hope to be nr 8

[nrn]

It's 7 I believe and I hope to be nr 8


You are aware that you cannot transfer your license anymore if you haven’t started it by now?

[NLP]

You are aware that you cannot transfer your license anymore if you haven’t started it by now?


Yes that's what I heard as well. I'm sure there will be a sensible solution, but it might take time

[The Foss]

You are aware that you cannot transfer your license anymore if you haven’t started it by now?



Is that just from UK CAA to EU state or from EU to UK as well? I found the 'eu exit' microsite on the CAA website that shows the recommended date to start the process from UK to EU but not vice versa

[red9]

It's 7 I believe and I hope to be nr 8

then I am 9

[Jwscud]

One of the key reasons for the 777/787 rated campaign is exactly the same reason as the A320 rated campaign - training capacity. The BA training system is running full speed and rated applicants get through the system in less than half the time, using half the resources that a non rated pilot does.

Looking at the bid results, a seniority of 3400-3500 where people are moving Airbus to Longhaul seems pretty much bang on 5 years in the company. The numbers are simply representative of the amount of recruitment that has gone on over the last 5 years.

[speed freek]

But why would you not recommend moving to BA? There is growth coming up, preforming among the best in the market?

Because it's fashionable to badmouth the company whenever possible.

The best flying job is flying for a legacy in your home country. Dutch pilots going to KLM isn't an accurate reflection of "deterioration" in BA as some would have you believe.

[The Blu Riband]

But why would you not recommend moving to BA? There is growth coming up, preforming among the best in the market?

If you want to fly SH and LH then only Air France- KLM and Lufthansa remain. AFKL has almost no growth, financial performance is behind compared to the rest, costs are increasing instead of decreasing and fly also 850-900 hrs LH.

Lufthansa, might be a comparable option to BA., they have growth, good financial results. But also there you fly 850-900 hrs.
People always tend to act if everything is better at the airline they work for. But actually they do not tell you how they really feel. ‘’It is always better at the other side’’.

Our job is changing unfortunately and this is industry wide, unfortunately everywhere we see fatigue. I think the aggressive strategy of Lufthansa and BA is the only way to survive, because eventually we will get a new financial crisis . They start making reserves, which is good. If we talk money, then I fully agree; BA should align with the other legacies. Profit share and a significant pay increase. The same what happened with the other legacies.

You haven't bothered to read much of this thread have you?

[MikeAlpha320]

Because it's fashionable to badmouth the company whenever possible.

The best flying job is flying for a legacy in your home country. Dutch pilots going to KLM isn't an accurate reflection of "deterioration" in BA as some would have you believe.


And here is the reason why we end up in the state we do. I love it. People here have genuine gripes & issues. A lot of us have come from other airlines (are you at BA? were you a cadet?) and have had other experiences- some good, some bad. I am NOT badmouthing BA. I am simply relating my previous experience to my current one. Flying SH airbus from LGW/LHR. I am trying to give people my opinion on the actual reality of working here. Not someone on Instagram/Facebook trying to impress everyone with their fabulous rosters and wonderful work life.

If I was really 'Bad mouthing' them my posts would be far longer and would probably be removed by mods for my colourful language :E. Why is the best job legacy in your home country? I have plenty of friends working 4 on 4 off home every night at their regional base on part time contracts earning far more than I do in their loco, but I suppose BA is better because its a legacy, right?

You are crazy if you can't see the decline in T&C's at BA. People are leaving, back to where they came from. They are struggling to fill LGW commands. They are getting SH offers refused left right and centre. It has got nothing to do with being fashionable and in all honesty I think you are just insulting those of us that actually go against the grain and don't pretend BA is this utopia that some love to pretend. Ill leave that to the centenary pin wearers :ok:

[speed freek]

are you at BA? were you a cadet?

it wasn't a personal attack on you but seeing as you've taken it that way yes I am at BA, I haven't been a cadet for many many years and when I were a lad my first flying job wasn't a shiny A320 with a loco. In other words I've done enough rubbish jobs for enough airlines long gone to know that what we have here is actually very good. You voiced your opinion. I've voiced mine.

If I was really 'Bad mouthing' them my posts would be far longer and would probably be removed by mods for my colourful language :E. Why is the best job legacy in your home country? I have plenty of friends working 4 on 4 off home every night at their regional base on part time contracts earning far more than I do in their loco, but I suppose BA is better because its a legacy, right?

We have worked for the same loco. I don't see unhealthy crew food here, max FTL days followed by min rest night stops in the airport Novotel using the hotel provided shuttle because the company is too tight to pay for crew transport followed by a day with an aircraft with a U/S oven so the crew food replacement is a pot noodle! If that's your experience of BA then I take it all back and those guys going to KLM are mad when they should be applying for easyJet Amsterdam, Transavia or Ryanair.

You are crazy if you can't see the decline in T&C's at BA.
I flew for easyJet long enough to see the carton of orange juice and the cakes taken away from the crew food, 2 hour early standbys removed and fatigue go up. Or have you forgotten about their near walk out a couple of years ago? Everywhere is in decline. Us, the sand pit, Lufthansa, Doctors, teachers, etc. It is the new norm.

People are leaving, back to where they came from.
Allegedly.

They are struggling to fill LGW commands.
No they're not. Feel free to ask those in the know.

They are getting SH offers refused left right and centre.
Allegedly. All I know is my position on the master seniority list continues to go up as a percentage.

It has got nothing to do with being fashionable and in all honesty I think you are just insulting those of us that actually go against the grain and don't pretend BA is this utopia that some love to pretend. Ill leave that to the centenary pin wearers :ok:
I think I'm the one against the grain on this thread actually trying to say it's quite nice here. Of course it's not perfect. Please find me the employer that is and I'll join you in applying.

In the mean time I have the opportunity to fly long haul for an airline making money and I'm in my home country. I'm a simple person. That makes me happy.

[red9]

Speedfreek : "Allegedly. All I know is my position on the master seniority list continues to go up as a percentage."
Surely the number (%) must be getting smaller ?

[MikeAlpha320]

Speed Freek:

Crew food is almost identical. Just as unhealthy and arguably less variety (LGW). I didn't eat it at easy and try not to at BA.

In Almost 3.5 years I had the oven u/s twice. Went into terminal and got hot food which we then charged back to the company.

Night stops weren't min rest LIN is currently 16 hours, INV 17 hours and MAD 16 hours (on lates) . Some long links in the summer but when they tried to pair RAK with INV it lasted about 2 weeks before people kept going fatigued and it got canned. Jersey night stop is paired with Marrakech and Tirana at BA. In summer landing about 0230.

Max FTL days were there in the summer but when you'd had too much you went fatigued and weren't bothered with ridiculous emails in response. After 2016 Balpa got significant alleviations at the planning stage to avoid max FTLs. I was there during the 'near walk out' and it was a horrendous summer. 17 was far better and from what I hear 18 was a similar story. I didn't do single days off, I didn't do 6 day blocks, when enough was enough I made the professional and legally correct decision to report fatigued. I wasn't interrogated about my commute, I wasn't told I had to bid for more days off, I wasn't told I shouldn't do things before work on lates. I wasn't told I was 'simply tired' and that it was 'hard to see what was fatiguing about my roster construction'.

People are leaving - check iBid rosters.

Why did they have to do a supplementary bid then? Why did the command go all the way to the bottom of seniority list? Hardly strikes me as a particularly popular position.

Post on yammer says several people failing to turn up for courses and lots of refusals. Had several friends refuse SH from ezy alone.

SH BA is a long way from EJ SH in my experience. I work far harder and get far more hassle for the privilege. Cant speak for LH but as my previous post states- I wouldn't join here for SH knowing what I know now.

[737 Jockey]

Any idea on the number of easy Captains leaving for BA or swimming in the pool?

[LeMoul]

Hi all, could anyone tell me if he/she was able to book stage 2 these last couple of days?

Cheers

[speed freek]

Red 9, yes quite right. Yet more clear evidence I can't multi task :}

MikeAlpha, it's very clear both our experiences of both companies are widely different, such is the nature of this job. But to help the people on the outside make an informed decision - if it's that bad here why don't you leave? It seems, like myself, you're junior enough it's non-jeopardy and you could be on a part time command contract earning more money like your mates before too long.

[speed freek]

Any idea on the number of easy Captains leaving for BA or swimming in the pool?

Couldn't give you numbers but many get in touch and apply.

[Riskybis]

Red 9, yes quite right. Yet more clear evidence I can't multi task :}

MikeAlpha, it's very clear both our experiences of both companies are widely different, such is the nature of this job. But to help the people on the outside make an informed decision - if it's that bad here why don't you leave? It seems, like myself, you're junior enough it's non-jeopardy and you could be on a part time command contract earning more money like your mates before too long.

but people are leaving , I have recently left , I know that their is a course starting in April which is ALL BA guys and girls ,
it is happening , it isn’t all rose tinted , open your eyes .
I have been in my new job for less than a month and already feel much more relaxed and excited

[hans brinker]

then I am 9

username checks out r/Reddit. ...

[737 Jockey]

but people are leaving , I have recently left , I know that their is a course starting in April which is ALL BA guys and girls ,
it is happening , it isn’t all rose tinted , open your eyes .
I have been in my new job for less than a month and already feel much more relaxed and excited


at easyJet do you mean?

[MikeAlpha320]

Red 9, yes quite right. Yet more clear evidence I can't multi task :}

MikeAlpha, it's very clear both our experiences of both companies are widely different, such is the nature of this job. But to help the people on the outside make an informed decision - if it's that bad here why don't you leave? It seems, like myself, you're junior enough it's non-jeopardy and you could be on a part time command contract earning more money like your mates before too long.


Who is to say that I'm not? LGW commands have gone very junior ... back for DEC easy for a 30k payrise and fixed roster 5/4/5/3.... :ok:

[MikeAlpha320]

at easyJet do you mean?

Think Riskybis went to Virgin. Know of a few guys/girls that have gone BA to VS and vice versa.

[student88]

Why anyone would leave BA for Virgin I'll never know - frying pan, fire.

[speed freek]

Riskybis, I never said everything is rose tinted and perfect. Read my post again. And if you did go to virgin I know many guys there who are unhappy and looking at their options. Deteriorating Ts and Cs are but one of many reasons someone might choose to leave. Without asking we won't know their reasons. Maybe being based in Liverpool is suddenly more important than working for a blue or red legacy. But whatever, don't let that get in the way of a good BA bash.

MikeAlpha, good luck to you mate. After 10 years I couldn't do 5 earlies anymore. Hope it works out for you.

[Riskybis]

Well it’s swings and roundabouts, I wasn’t happy and have taken the leap . I am now happy , was in the wrong company .
Upset that I never received my 100 year badge .....

[VJW]

MikeAlpha, good luck to you mate. After 10 years I couldn't do 5 earlies anymore. Hope it works out for you.

Me too! A year in at eJ and haven’t worked a single early shift yet :)

[Black Pudding]

It’s very sad that any UK airline has such a bad terms and conditions that people are looking to leave. You would have thought BA would have been dead man (women) shoes. I wonder how many are unhappy to the point they are considering leaving TCX or TUI. Surely BA must be wasting a lot of money each time someone leaves.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

MikeAlpha
Max FTL days were there in the summer but when you'd had too much you went fatigued and weren't bothered with ridiculous emails in response. After 2016 Balpa got significant alleviations at the planning stage to avoid max FTLs. I was there during the 'near walk out' and it was a horrendous summer. 17 was far better and from what I hear 18 was a similar story. I didn't do single days off, I didn't do 6 day blocks, when enough was enough I made the professional and legally correct decision to report fatigued. I wasn't interrogated about my commute, I wasn't told I had to bid for more days off, I wasn't told I shouldn't do things before work on lates. I wasn't told I was 'simply tired' and that it was 'hard to see what was fatiguing about my roster construction' .

You might find that Easy Pilots had those sort of questions when they first started FRMS - what it must be 15 years ago? probably when you were still at school?
I'm sure Easy do look at commuting and BA are quiet correct in asking you - just look at Crew Members Responsibilities if not.
BA have just started down the FRMS it was only a few years ago the normal comment was "there is no fatigue at BA" . So its early doors when you get what seem like daft questions when you come from Easy which has a mature FRMS (and it was only a few years ago they came under a lot of flack from BALPA about FRMS)

[Up North Like]

Maybe being based in Liverpool is suddenly more important than working for a blue or red legacy. But whatever, don't let that get in the way of a good BA bash.

How devalued has the term 'legacy' actually become? If legacy means working 6 days on and 1/2 days off then I'll take Liverpool! Or how about working 5/3/5/4 at a regional base with decent days out and manageable hours, but without the hat and tie pin of course.

Delusional Speed Freek

[MikeAlpha320]

MikeAlpha
.

You might find that Easy Pilots had those sort of questions when they first started FRMS - what it must be 15 years ago? probably when you were still at school?
I'm sure Easy do look at commuting and BA are quiet correct in asking you - just look at Crew Members Responsibilities if not.
BA have just started down the FRMS it was only a few years ago the normal comment was "there is no fatigue at BA" . So its early doors when you get what seem like daft questions when you come from Easy which has a mature FRMS (and it was only a few years ago they came under a lot of flack from BALPA about FRMS)


Mr Angry, I am aware of crew members responsibilities. I have a short, driving commute. BA are being particularly invasive and trying to make commuters adhere to unpublished rules and rules which they will then break themselves. People are being contacted by management about their commute but with no actual adherence to disciplinary procedure- surely you can see why that is frustrating?

Hence my point about BA being behind EJ wrt SH. I appreciate guys/girls/union at easy had to endure that attitude to fatigue but it doesn't mean that BA should plead ignorance. The foundations have been laid elsewhere, its no excuse to be 15 years behind.

Not sure why school comment is relevant (or indeed accurate) :ok:

[speed freek]

How devalued has the term 'legacy' actually become? If legacy means working 6 days on and 1/2 days off then I'll take Liverpool! Or how about working 5/3/5/4 at a regional base with decent days out and manageable hours, but without the hat and tie pin of course.

Delusional Speed Freek

That's assuming you can get into your regional base of choice. How is Bristol, Liverpool, Belfast or any of the Scottish bases looking? Still dead man's shoes? Maybe you meant Portugal and the award winning contract.

5453 was amazing. So amazing everyone goes part time and ends up FRV. I have even heard of FOs on the 75% contract staying part time because they prefer the reduced levels of work over fixed roster patterns.

Delusional Up North Like

[red9]

How devalued has the term 'legacy' actually become? If legacy means working 6 days on and 1/2 days off then I'll take Liverpool! Or how about working 5/3/5/4 at a regional base with decent days out and manageable hours, but without the hat and tie pin of course.

Delusional Speed Freek

Just starting my 7 on/2 off with our legacy carrier.....

[kendrick47247]

I've been asked a question by a potential new joiner that I dont have the answer to:

Can you be considered for a long-haul position with a frozen licence?
She says the job listing states the following "Preference for the longhaul fleets will be given to those currently flying a jet type
with a MTOM of 25 tonnes or greater and holding an unfrozen ATPL (A)".

But if there is a need on LH could she still possibly be considered?

[back to Boeing]

I've been asked a question by a potential new joiner that I dont have the answer to:

Can you be considered for a long-haul position with a frozen licence?
She says the job listing states the following "Preference for the longhaul fleets will be given to those currently flying a jet type
with a MTOM of 25 tonnes or greater and holding an unfrozen ATPL (A)".

But if there is a need on LH could she still possibly be considered?

as far as I can tell no. Because you need to ATPL
to be acting pilot in command on a 3 crew trip when the captain is on break.

[kendrick47247]

as far as I can tell no. Because you need to ATPL
to be acting pilot in command on a 3 crew trip when the captain is on break.

Just as I thought; thanks for clarifying

[Eddie_Crane]

as far as I can tell no. Because you need to ATPL
to be acting pilot in command on a 3 crew trip when the captain is on break.

Correct. OM-D refers. Full ATPL(A) required for APIC duties on A380/B777/787/747 types. I’d imagine that to be the case for A350 conversions too.

[The Foss]

I've been asked a question by a potential new joiner that I dont have the answer to:

Can you be considered for a long-haul position with a frozen licence?
She says the job listing states the following "Preference for the longhaul fleets will be given to those currently flying a jet type
with a MTOM of 25 tonnes or greater and holding an unfrozen ATPL (A)".

But if there is a need on LH could she still possibly be considered?
I was offered 787 about two months ago if that helps.

I think it more depends on your experience, type etc, as I know another guy that was offered SH and was told they couldn’t consider him for long haul.

It could be that they unfreeze people during the training?

[TheAirMission]

People with frozen ATPLs have been offered LH positions, on the basis that they have the hours prior to joining the airline and then the LST completed during the TR to unfreeze the ATPL.

[wiggy]

TAM beat me to it ....I don’t want to do a cut and paste from the relevant source but I’ll offer this, which may or may not help....

Managed Path/DEPs can begin a conversion course with a CPL (A) only if they have the hours to upgrade to an ATPL(A). By the time they reach the final line check they must be able to present a full ATPL(A)...

[kendrick47247]

Thanks to Eddie, Foss, airmission, and wiggy, as I suspected, just couldn’t find the relevant reference!

[louelle100]

as far as I can tell no. Because you need to ATPL
to be acting pilot in command on a 3 crew trip when the captain is on break.
What about the L3 VS people? They were all MPLs with frozen atpls?

[Flap62]

I honestly don’t have an issue with anyone leaving BA. Crack on! Everyone has different situations and needs and if somewhere else ticks the boxes then go for it! BA is neither better or worse than Easy - it’s impossible to make that distinction for everyone because everyone wants something different.

What I would say is that lots of people leaving is a good thing because the one thing management understand is a rise in training and recruitment costs and so that can only help improve t&c in the long term to promote retention.

[wiggy]

What about the L3 VS people? They were all MPLs with frozen atpls?

That’s a question for someone from VS, possibly in a VS thread. As far as BA are concerned any non ATPL on longhaul fleets would have a restriction placed on their flying duties because the Ops manual states they can not operate as Acting Pilot-in-Command.

[LlamaFarmer]

I guess as far as VS are concerned, you can't all be APIC.

VS MPL didn't work though, they're doing line training at EZY now and going back to VS after they have a couple years experience

[cessnapete]

I guess as far as VS are concerned, you can't all be APIC.

VS MPL didn't work though, they're doing line training at EZY now and going back to VS after they have a couple years experience

An expensive mistake for VS perhaps! Recruiting MPL direct onto a LH fleet(A330) looks good to the Accountants, low salary pilots etc. But only a couple of route sectors/ landings a month with a Training Capt. surely won’t work, and ties up your Training staff for a long time. Good work if you can get it though on almost continuous Caribbean trips. Apparently none of the VS MPL recruits are checked out yet as P2 after two years or so. So transferred to EZY with VS paying the salaries.

[4engines4longhaul]

Not quite correct Cessnapete. Course 1 is out on the line, albeit after about 100 sectors of line training. Course 2-5 is at or off to Easy for a year or so which was probably the most sensible decision made in relation to VS’s dabble into the Cadet world.

[Pulluptoga]

An important info for people living abroad and thinking about applying for BA and commuting:

BA has recently published a guidance regarding Brexit. As a commuter not living in the UK, according to this guidance and a risk assessment done by BA, only EU nationals who live in the UK will keep their rights to work in the UK after March 29th in case there is no deal...

My advise would be to look elsewhere. Commuting is a pain, the british government is unstable, company is being annoying with commutes, conditions are like the braking action in Moscow in the middle of the winter: medium to poor!

By the way just to put things in perspective, AF pilots just got a 4.7% payrise on top of the 4% that have been given already to all employees at the end of last year, so basically a 8.7% payrise for our French legacy airline pilot colleagues!

[wiggy]

An important info for people living abroad and thinking about applying for BA and commuting:

BA has recently published a guidance regarding Brexit. As a commuter not living in the UK, according to this guidance and a risk assessment done by BA, only EU nationals who live in the UK will keep their rights to work in the UK after March 29th in case there is no deal...


I’m not sure that is a “given” ..yet....but the situation is highly complex and from what I have seen and heard, e.g. via yammer I suspect the company are scratching around to provide a definitive answer....for info and background have a look at this:

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/free-movement-no-deal/

I certainly agree things are almost certainly about to get much more complicated for any EU27 nationals, as for your other points, yes, inclined to agree.

[JulietSierra6]

Hi all,

I've got a start date soon but I'm worried my IAA licence isn't going to be transferred to a CAA one in time. Does anyone have recent experience with this? Any estimate for how long the entire process took for you? Apparently the CAA have got over 2000 licences they're trying to convert before March 29th thanks to the B-word.

Apparently BA can send the CAA a 'request to expedite' email, has anyone tried this?

Is it absolutely required to have the CAA licence on day 1? Or is it possible to continue with training up to maybe the final sim (LST) check?

Any help appreciated. Feel free to PM.

The expedite request worked well for me, although this was a few years ago. I’m pretty sure as you said you would just need the licence in hand by the LST.

[wiggy]

This is a concern if I'm successful with the final stages.. current employer is forcing us all to the IAA away from the British License and if I'm successful I'm not sure on the time line or post brexit situation of getting my uk one back!

Standing by to be corrected but I thought U.K. government had said it would continue to recognise “EU licences”, certainly in the event of a negotiated Brexit.

[pudoc]

Standing by to be corrected but I thought U.K. government had said it would continue to recognise “EU licences”, certainly in the event of a negotiated Brexit.

They have said that but some companies aren’t taking the risk. I don’t think it’s guaranteed yet and the CAA are still working on it. So I’ve been told anyway.

[wiggy]

They have said that but some companies aren’t taking the risk. I don’t think it’s guaranteed yet and the CAA are still working on it. So I’ve been told anyway.

Understandable given the circumstances (whatever they turn out to be :confused:)

[lansen]

Was invited to an assessment (777/787 DEP) and given the opportunity to schedule an appointment. When I however tried to book that assessment, no available dates were shown. In fact, the page is basically blank. Does anybody else experience this issue?

[zerotohero]

Was invited to an assessment (777/787 DEP) and given the opportunity to schedule an appointment. When I however tried to book that assessment, no available dates were shown. In fact, the page is basically blank. Does anybody else experience this issue?

i have the exact same issue. I thought it was a browser issue so I downloaded google chrome but apparently you just have to keep refreshing the screen at 9am for newly released slots a friend told me? Seems a bit poor to me so was thinking to phone and check.

[pudoc]

It's completely normal, they usually email you once or twice a week around 9am saying "we've released new dates". When you get that e-mail they'll all be gone within hours so be quick.

[papajulietpapa]

Hello there,

Anyone here doing the BA simulator assessment soon wanting to go in a sim with an instructor before to get ready ? So we can split the costs ?

PM me if interested.

Thanks a lot.

[papajulietpapa]

Hey try again if you are going to do the simulator soon. Not sure yet which fleet I will apply for.

[Nauti]

Was invited to an assessment (777/787 DEP) and given the opportunity to schedule an appointment. When I however tried to book that assessment, no available dates were shown. In fact, the page is basically blank. Does anybody else experience this issue?

Out of interest, do you have hours on the 777/787? Thanks in advance and best of luck.

[Nauti]

I have a frozen atpl and was offered 787 about two months ago if that helps.

I think it more depends on your experience, type etc, as I know another guy that was offered SH and was told they couldn’t consider him for long haul.

It could be that they unfreeze people during the training?

Hi and apologies for the questions out of the blue,

Did they offer you SH before LH? At what stage/how did you indicate that LH would be your preference? And which role did you initially apply for (DEP/A320 DEP/777/787 DEP etc)?

All the best and thanks in advance.

[Reversethrustset]

Provided long haul and short haul is available your offer is based on your simulator performance.

[Mansnothot]

Provided long haul and short haul is available your offer is based on your simulator performance.

That is the official stance from BA. Although I would take that with a pinch of salt, it seems like they’ve just put that in place so people won’t moan about getting SH cause they can just say it’s due to performance. As always, they will just place you where they need you, if they happen to need to fill a lot of SH slots and you perform very well in the sim, you still might get offered a SH position.

[Reversethrustset]

Several of my base colleagues, including myself were successful at the sim stage and their experiences along with mine is they got offered SH/LH based on how well they did. Of those that got SH they said "Yes, it could've gone alot better, not sure if I've passed" whereas those who got LH said the opposite. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just stating what happened in our instances.

[lansen]

Out of interest, do you have hours on the 777/787? Thanks in advance and best of luck.

Yes, currently flying the 787.

[kendrick47247]

Yes, currently flying the 787.

Sent you a PM

[Nauti]

Yes, currently flying the 787.
Great, thanks for the reply.

[Nauti]

When I applied I don’t think it was split like that, it was just DEP. I had mentioned I wanted SH LGW at phase 2 and 3, and also on getting the news I’d passed the sim check. They then offered LHR 787 so I asked again if SH LGW was available, and got that instead later the same day! As a side note, they did say they don’t usually accommodate requests, but as what I was after was usually less popular they could do it on this occasion, so can’t hurt to ask.

Thank you for the very thorough reply. All food for thought. All of my hours are A320, though I do more than meet the requirements for LH that I see in the job descriptions etc. Not sure LH will be an option for me (sim dependant of course) but I'd be more than happy with SH LGW.