BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Feck]

Very helpful, CAT3C, thank you.

[wiggy]

Joining BA as a junior pilot, you will find yourself in blind line territory, so you can put in preferences for the trips that you want, however on saying that last month I noticed a hell of a lot of junior guys on trip lines.


Funnily enough the reason for that has come up in debate elsewhere about the short haul life style, and might be worth knowing.

Blindline=company writes your complete roster - their job to get you to CAP.

At the moment under the current rule set the company is quite constrained on how it "builds" the lines - result is lots of blindlines end up under CAP, possibly bulked out with a day/days Time Assignability ( sort of home stand-by), nevertheless a Blindline holder is "pay protected", i.e. always paid as if they had worked to CAP.

Tripline= Trip line holder tries to build their own roster. Their own job to make CAP - don't make it they may lose pay in certain circumstances,

You may have sacrifice days off to avoid losing cash, or these days increasingly risk having extra work that gets dropped on the line during the Roster Assign process....

It seems to be becoming increasingly common to see the very junior guys working like the clappers on carp triplines whilst the guys just above them are picking up blindlines in order to try to get some time off - which works well if you don't mind a few days uncertainty over any Time Assignable days.

However...I'll also add the heads up that some of the constraints on the company regarding blindline build are being removed later this year, more controls may well come off in a couple of years under Bidline 2017, so blindlines are going to be more efficient, which certainly won't mean working less... :oh:

[TopBunk]

Hi Wiggy

It seems tobe becoming increasingly common to see the very junior guys working like the clappers on carp triplines whilst the guys just above them are picking up blindlines in order to try to get some time off - which works well if you don't mind a few days uncertainty over any Time Assignable days.


I know quite a lot has changed since I took VR back in '09, but are junior guys 'forced' to pick up a Trip Line now even if they don't bid for it? If so, that's quite a change as back in the day they became Blind Line holders and all unallocated Trip Lines were broken up with the individual trips going back into the Stage 2 pot.

[wiggy]

TopBunk

AFAIK that's still the case but I know some are still reluctant to effectively "nil bid" because of the loss of any control over days off and so would rather chance things with a poor trip line. I rather suspect that might start to change over the next few months - which might make things interesting for the company.

[Widebdy]

Given the levels of recruitment over the next 12-24 months would it be fair to conclude new joiners will move up the 320 seniority list at rates faster then previously seen in BA?

Is it possible to explain how different life is for someone in the bottom 20% of the LHR 320 fleet compared to say someone sitting half way up. Would it be described as marginal or substantial? Is it possible to compare the life of a senior A320 pilot to that of a junior pilot who will remain junior for years as a DEP onto a longhaul fleet?

[wiggy]

Given the levels of recruitment over the next 12-24 months would it be fair to conclude new joiners will move up the 320 seniority list at rates faster then previously seen in BA?

Who knows?..That depends on the whole host of unknowns that determine whether recruiting continues...as I'm sure you realise.

In general recruiting at BA has always been stop and start since they started (?restarted) DEP recruitment in the late 80's. In any event the nearer the front end of a recruitment bulge you are the better, so I suspect the likes of CAT3C is probably well placed, whereas someone joining in a year or two might end up stuck at the bottom of a list if for unknown reasons recruitment dries up again.

[bex88]

Here is how it goes. In the last three years I have moved up about 75 places on the MSL. Then suddenly whilst not really moving up the list you find that you are 300-350 places off the bottom and shooting up the Airbus list. It will then probably slow and become stagnant again for a while with just the normal attrition rates etc. What is causing this movement at the moment is the result of the BMI slots starting to transfer to LH and BA expanding into new markets. If your offered a place on the A320 today or the 747 next month for Christ sake take the A320 now because your position on the MSL determines everything. If you don't believe me you should see the number of shoes that have been left for me to polish :}

[wiggy]

If your offered a place on the A320 today or the 747 next month for Christ sake take the A320 now because your position on the MSL determines everything.

Your logic's sound re the MSL, as long as both the MSL and the company continues in it's current form. TBH though if they really were both guaranteed slots (and there's no such thing I know), I know which I would be inclined take....

[Globally Challenged]

CL.730.A Specific requirements for pilots undertaking a zero flight time type rating (ZFTT) course – aeroplanes
(a) A pilot undertaking instruction at a ZFTT course shall have completed, on a multi- pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least:
(1) if an FFS qualified to level CG, C or interim C is used during the course, 1500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors;
(2) if an FFS qualified to level DG or D is used during the course, 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
(b) When a pilot is changing from a turbo-prop to a turbo-jet aeroplane or from a turbo- jet to a turbo-prop aeroplane, additional simulator training shall be required.

So - what is the MTOW / seating config of your rating as this is the primary consideration

[Papa_Golf]

Just out curiosity: does anybody know if there a non british nationals (non Commonwealth as well) flying for BA?

[wiggy]

Well apart from lot and lots of Europeans there's at least one of our American friends.

[Megaton]

I can think of Americans, Lebanese, Colombian as well as loads of Australian, Canadian and European pilots.

[NigelOnDraft]

Your logic's sound re the MSL, as long as both the MSL and the company continues in it's current form. TBH though if they really were both guaranteed slots (and there's no such thing I know), I know which I would be inclined take....So do I... another 9/11 and I know which type/role is more likely to be secure :oh:

[Buter]

Well apart from lot and lots of Europeans there's at least one of our American friends.
The Texan doesn't even have a British passport!
;)

[wiggy]

The nationality question and questions about the number of Brits as BA seems to crop up on a regular basis...BA's requirements are pretty clear:

"A valid passport (with minimum of 12 months before expiry date) allowing unrestricted worldwide travel

The unrestricted right to live and work in the UK".

Remember the unrestricted right to live and work in the UK can be gained through family ties/links, not just nationality (e.g being an EU national).

Given what we see on the Flight Deck every day I'd say (as previously stated) there's a wide spread of nationalities.

[Lead]

Are pension contributions based on the old 24pp or the new 34pp salary?

[Harry palmer]

I see the application is open until May the 24th now. Is this still for 2015 places? Hope its open again in September for round two.

[ChaseIt]

You spoke my mind Harry fingers crossed

[Wirbelsturm]

Judging by internal comms recruitment will be alive, active and 'quick' for some time to come!

[nrn]

Does anyone have some more hints with regards to the verbal reasoning bit? I've done all the assessmenttoday stuff but I'm not feeling quite confident just yet..

[Papa_Golf]

Speaking about quick recruitment. I've applied last week and got my invitation today for the next month!

Finger crossed! :cool:

[wiggy]

P G

As Wirbelsturm has mentioned the company is suddenly in a bit of a hurry, although training capacity might cap the rate at which folks can actually be given start dates.

[Lead]

What are the t&c's of the "pilot only share scheme" they mention in the offer?

[JamesHerriot]

Hi,

Any idea if inverted axis is used on the computer test ?

[Down in front]

I don't intend to repost anything that has not already been given elsewhere on this thread / site - but I will say that you get plenty of chance to practice each stage of that test before the test begins, so you will be comfortable with what is required.

[Primary Governor]

I've a JAA CPL, ATPL Theory, valid MEIR, MCC, Class 1 Medical
1,765 hours TT
770 hours as FO on Twin-Otter
700 hours as FO on Beechcraft 1900D, current type on licence
ELP Level 6
EU Passport

Can I apply?

I read you can apply with 500 hrs and valid TR. It doesn't stipulate the TR right?

Or am I missing something?!

[nick14]

I don't think the Twotter will allow ZFTT as its too small so I fear you don't qualify.

I shall dig through the ZFTT requirements.

Multi pilot turboprop with a MCTOM not less than 10 tonnes or pax seating of more than 19, not sure if the Twotter is that big?

[4468]

Can I apply?
Absolutely!

Will you progress?

With a Twotter rating? No chance!

However, you've probably got the most fun job you will ever have. Enjoy!! Don't knock it!

[stable_checked]

Can anybody recommend any material to prepare for the selection ?
Thank you

[Wirbelsturm]

'Piloting for Dummies' ?????

Sorry, not very helpful but it has helped me for years!!!!

:}

(Keep an eye on the business sections, what's BA up to, what's IAG up to, who are the primary players, what direction does each branch of the company want to go in, what's affecting the market/global economy, currency ($£E etc) markets, oil prices, hostilities around the globe, terrorism, taxes, competition, Gulf regions, level playing fields, impact of Chapter 11, employment markets, local issues affecting staff/pax plus lots more other more clever people will think of)

That's just for the interview!

p.s. Top tip, if there are magazines lying around on the table.......read them. :ok:

[Superpilot]

How come no one has mentioned the email advising those who applied > 6 months (but <12 months) ago to re-apply? I mean... everyone and their pet dog received it right?

Not going to bother though as I truly believe I'm not what BA are looking for with regards their selection process (which I'm certain will have changed by this time next year). Being in a flying job I actually want to be in for the first time in my career has also helped make that decision! :ok:

[RexBanner]

Superpilot there's not much to say about it really other than that we know that they're recruiting and we know that they're having difficulty finding people so it's no surprise.

Hopefully I'll get the benefit this time around of having experienced the tests already and actually having time to prepare for them rather than just panic booking the first available slot - after having been initially told there were no slots available - leaving very little preparation time.

Here goes nothing!

[JamandJar]

Can anyone who has done the BA DEP aptitude tests before answer me a quick question or two please?

How long does the multitask/shapes/count down test last?

How many answers are you required to give over that time?

Hope you can help,

Cheers

[Harry palmer]

Sorry what email is this? If you applied greater than 6 months but still inside the 12 month rule after attending any point in selection people are getting emails inviting them back early?

[Superpilot]

Yes Harry, check PMs.

I think it might be Bus rated only though.

[RexBanner]

Yes as far as I'm aware it's type rated only at this stage. (To reapply within the twelve month timeframe of course)

[Widebdy]

Someone asked about reapplying at the end of my day one!! It got a chuckle after the computer tests. We were advised the maths and verbal testing results are "good" for 12 months and hence the 12 month rule for those attending day one.

[Down in front]

Has anyone had the good/bad news from their Day 1 yet?

[Down in front]

I just had my day 2 email come through :)

[kirungi1]

Down in front; You've answered self perfectly and good luck with day 2.

[EMB-145LR]

Does anyone have a brief timeline or course structure for the new joiner DEP A320 type rating course at BA? It's my understanding that most training is being conducted at CTC in Southampton at the moment as opposed to Cranebank? Do the company provide HOTAC and duty pay as you're essentially not in base, or is it just base pay throughout training until you hit the line? Finally, is groundschool essentially Monday - Friday 9-5, or are the hours more irregular? I've heard sims are mainly being done at Gatwick for the 320 at the moment?

Just trying to work out arrangements for the family before I start in the summer. Many thanks in advance.

[nick14]

Down in front, how long was it that you waited to hear?

[Down in front]

4 days.......

[nick14]

Thanks,

How did you feel you did with the verbal reasoning? I didn't manage to get through too many questions. I felt fairly good about the rest of the day.

[Harry palmer]

Out of interest for those being contacted to reapply early what stage did you get to previously?

[polepilot]

Stage 2, out of interest to superpilot, is he the man or his dog?

[Primary Governor]

Based on my experience (ref post 1584) I was invited to initial assessment. Email received today, applied last Tuesday.
Surprising.

[Down in front]

Nick14

I noticed to my surprise around half way through how short I was on time so prioritised the passages with the most questions - I skipped 1 or 2 passages I think so 4-5 questions in total.

[Harry palmer]

Have many bus rated guys from last year recieve s the early invite? Any chances non rated from last year may get an early reapplication?

[Harry palmer]

Have many bus rated guys from last year recieved the early invite? Any chances non rated from last year may get an early reapplication?

[a-ricky-town]

Hi,

I applied last year and managed to get through to the interview. I didn't pass it.

However a few days ago I received an email inviting me to take part in the process this year, I re-applied and I got an invite to Day 1 but only to sit some tests, not all of them.

Anyone in the same situation? Which of those "selected" tests can I expect?

Thanks!

[Harry palmer]

Are you Airbus rated mate?

[VJW]

I failed day 1 last year so no hope for me, but I asked a mate who got to the sim...as of yet he hasn't heard back, but he knows people who have and they aren't 320 rated...

[a-ricky-town]

I am airbus rated. So they are not calling people who failed day one? Only those who managed to get to the personal interview?

In my case hey said they knew it wasn't 12 months but they said they would like to invite me anyway.

If anyone knows how this "shortened day 1" looks like please post here or pm me.

Thanks for your help!

Regards

[Glidestar64]

Hi

I failed the assessment last year and got invited for one with less that 12months

I had failed on day 1 but they still said I would only have to re sit a few tests, I presume the ones I failed...should here about them this week...

[Harry palmer]

If this is the case has anyone who failed at the sim been contacted just to resit the sim?

[VJW]

Those that failed day 1...are you airbus rated?

Also, when did you fail, trying to figure out timeframes..could be nice to give it another shot sooner then 12 months..

[Wirbelsturm]

For info:

Training capacity is at overload even with outsourcing.

Internal transfers going on as there are problems with the summer schedule that could impact long haul (where the money is! :) ) which are being addressed now shunting the problem to SH!

Company are desperately trying to cover gaps in the SH programme which caused chaos last year and are looming again this year.

IMHO if you're airbus rated (thus only needing a basic course not the full conversion) and only failed on a minor point or two they might come knocking at your email 'door'.

It's going to be an interesting summer (again)

[Permafrost_ATPL]

For those of you who got a 'recall' email for another shot at it, how far back was from assessment?

Had my sim at the beginning of the year and, according to the very nice feedback phone call chap, there wasn't much in it :(

[Juan Tugoh]

Commercial pressure not affecting standards then?

[Superpilot]

Dare I say it but I think the "it's their train set" argument is giving way little by little :p. I had a strong hunch this was going to happen as the recruitment model is unsustainable and must be costing millions to maintain every year if you think about the logistics of organising visits and repeat visits. Too much of a good thing? Out of my extended circle of friends and acquaintances I don't know of a single person who got through. People want to work for BA but they think twice whenever they have to take 3 separate days off work each separated by anywhere between 1 to 5 weeks. They think twice when they have to pay up to a grand each time just to fly to London for the selection.

[VJW]

Sorry Juan Tugoh but are you implying the hundreds of guys/gals that don't get through the hoop jumping are incompetent flight crew, or at least of a less standard then those in BA?

[Wirbelsturm]

I don't think anyone is implying a lowering of 'standards' but the goal posts for acceptable parameters may well be moving due to commercial pressures!

Tagged for management!!!!

[Juan Tugoh]

Sorry Juan Tugoh but are you implying the hundreds of guys/gals that don't get through the hoop jumping are incompetent flight crew, or at least of a less standard then those in BA?

No, that is not what I said, nor did I imply it. If you wish to feel touchy about it that is your affair.

What I was implying and or saying is that if BA reject someone - for whatever reason, and then change their mind in order to fill spaces because the schedule is falling falling apart as they have insufficient pilots, then commercial pressure is affecting standards.

I make no comment upon the validity or the worth of those standards. We all know some very capable pilots that have not passed BA's selection process.

Pilots within BA have been telling management they have not had enough pilots for several years. Management blamed all the crewing woes on Bidline, which was then destroyed with BALPAs willing assistance. Now management can no longer blame BLRs and it is still bloody obvious that there are not enough pilots; the desperation is becoming increasingly obvious.

[VJW]

Not sure I'm being touchy mate, that's how I took it, and I'm sure that's what you meant anyway- otherwise what is the point of your post, other then to state the obvious? It's called supply and demand, it has an effect on 'standards' as you put it all the time - at least in a lot of other airlines. Perhaps that's what you meant, that BA's recruitment process is always of the same standard and doesn't change, however it was different last year to 2010, so not sure that's true either. It's not like BA are changing their minds on their initial assessment of the person, as far as I have read, people are having to be retested....just sooner then the original 12 months. Hardly worth someone in BA already commenting about the standards are changing, based on what you've said I assume you are in fact happy that the standards are perhaps increasing? That maybe finally, they're using some common sense?

On the flip side to, 'We all know some very capable pilots that have not passed BA's selection process,' I guess we also know some useless ones pass?! ;)

[Juan Tugoh]

VJW - I explained what I meant, I really do not care whether you accept it or not. The comment was a reflection on management ineptitude. Dress up your sensitivity anyway you like, you are still being somewhat touchy.

[VJW]

Lucky for me, I too care not that you think I'm being touchy.

You explained what you meant, because it needed an explanation. It might well have been about your managements ineptitude, but it still has an undertone of insinuating that any of us fortunate enough to get in having not waited the 12 months, was somehow doing so having not met the recruitment standard (What I was implying and or saying is that if BA reject someone - for whatever reason, and then change their mind in order to fill spaces because the schedule is falling falling apart as they have insufficient pilots, then commercial pressure is affecting standards). They aren't presumably changing their minds, and offering jobs to people that failed. It appears they are retesting people on elements they failed, so unless as Wirbelsturm suggested, they widen the goalposts a little (which no one here will actually know), the recruiting and testing standards to which you refer remain unchanged, the wait period is all that'll change. Is that such a big deal for someone already in BA, who's admitted you're short of crew?

[MonarchOrBust]

Alright ladies, thank you...


Now BA SH is 100% blind line (am I right in saying that?) what do rosters look life for the latest joiners? Can anybody give an indication of how many forced overnights a typical low seniority FO can expect in a month?


Thanks

[Stocious]

It is most certainly not 100% blindline!!

[Private jet]

Juan Tugoh & Wirbelsturm,

Perhaps you were both recruited as the result of "commercial pressure"
Can you deny it & prove otherwise? Glass houses & stones etc.......

[wiggy]

Now BA SH is 100% blind line

Not so, but OTOH the level of roster control one used to have with a Tripline has been very much reduced
now that there's the possibility of extra trips being added to lines by the company after provisional roster publication.

Same now applies for Long Haul.

[Wirbelsturm]

Perhaps you were both recruited as the result of "commercial pressure"
Can you deny it & prove otherwise? Glass houses & stones etc.......

Absolutely!!! The only reason any company would invest in expensive manpower (personpower????) is due to commercial pressure leading to a stretching of the available assets. That's business!!!! We were all recruited under commercial pressure to keep aircraft flying and revenue generated.

What is interesting in this case, and thus my comment about moving goalposts, is that the HR department have always been obstinately stubborn about allowing a change to the set down procedures for those who don't pass either the day 1 or day 2 procedures. IIRC the recruitment department has often looked into changing the swimming time in the pool, the time frame between applications, retesting day 1 etc. etc. etc. and it has been resisted as 'it's the BA way'.

What is happening now is that due to the death of Bidline, the move to 34 pay points, the time to command, the BARP pension scheme and the workload on SH there are fewer candidates applying for the role and the 'pig headedness' that used to exist in the system doesn't have a place anymore. Perhaps this is a stark wake up call to senior managers and the board who have always believed that BA is the 'Golden Goose' of the UK airline world that it is no longer seen that way and other companies are just as enticing. If the recruiters are going to fulfill their mandate to the training department they need greater flexibility and thus, I believe, the ability to recall those that fell at a purely test driven hurdle, that may well possibly have just been a bad day, is a good thing. The commercial pressure is generating company side change, finally!

No need for the glazier as no stones were thrown. :ok:

[wiggy]

Wirbs..

Nail firmly hit on head, most especially the penultimate paragraph.....

Given the factors you mention (all of which I agree with) it will be interesting to see what effect any feedback today's DEPs give to their mates is going to have on future recruitment.

[Wirbelsturm]

Just for balance,

For those applying or looking at applying it is a great job with lots of great people and, in my opinion, a relaxed, professional end enjoyable atmosphere to fly in.

It is very busy on SH, so I've been told. LH is a different beast but, if the doom mongers be believed, LH is the next to feel the EASA axe so that might or might not change, we'll see when November comes around! :sad:

The first few years on blind lines are undoubtedly tough however the opportunities are there if you can slog it out.

It's a good company but with it's warts, pretty much like any other company. Is it the 'best' employer? Well that depends upon your requirements and your lifestyle choices but it is a good employer.

[VJW]

Wirbelsturm well said.

I have to wonder though, lots of guys already in BA always imply that while a good employer things can of course be better, i.e. you work hard on SH it seems etc etc. While I'm sure that is of course true, I sometimes would just love for you guys to go work for a Loco for a month and come back and tell me how hard it really is in BA :ok:

[Shaka Zulu]

VJW, I worked for a Loco for over 3 years and can categorically state that the short haul rosters in terms of time in uniform is on par or even worse than a loco roster.
LGW BA short haul roster is uncannily similar to an EZY one.

So am sorry but you are stirring the pot without knowing people's backgrounds

[VJW]

That's why I ask!

Don't work for Easy so no idea what their roster is like.

[Wirbelsturm]

I sometimes would just love for you guys to go work for a Loco for a month and come back and tell me how hard it really is in BA

No need, one good friend and former colleague of mine is a TSC with Ezy at Gatwick and we have discussed his, admittedly self built, training rosters in comparison to LGW SH rosters and they are, from a training perspective, broadly similar.

I also have another friend and former colleague who is a line swine Skipper at LGW for Ezy and the rosters are also broadly similar. Ironically the stock line at Ezy is more predictable than the 'new' bidline as BA now have the ability to 'Force Assign' if you have the audacity to bid low to release bank or even fancy a specific day or two off.

On the plus side once the rosters are fixed they are generally bomb proof.

I would assume that bumping 850+ hours a year in SH is pretty busy, it's many years since I was there and it wasn't anywhere near as back breaking as it is now but then that's the world we live in now. :eek:

[VJW]

Sorry, but I didn't intend to compare EZY to BA. While they are by definition Loco, compared to my lot I'd say they have it 'easy'....pun intended.

[Wirbelsturm]

Ezy is the only 'Loco' that I still have friends in, those in Ryanair and Jet2 moved along pretty quickly!!!!

[SinBin]

As a shorthaul pilot at BA, I got a tripline for June, and every month previous to that for the last 4 years, except 1....I think was through choice. Yes BA have tweaked the ruleset somewhat, but only if you bid low on credited hours on a month. I strategically block all my work up at the beginning of the month so as to avoid a forced assigned trip at the end of the month which seem to be few and far between. Certainly not 100% blind lines on shorthaul. Probably 25% blindlines but for someone getting in now, would only be in that territory for a matter of a few months.

[Juan Tugoh]

Wirbelsturm you have said all that I was trying to say far more diplomatically than I did or can, for that I thank you.

[wiggy]

SinBin

BA have tweaked the ruleset somewhat, but only if you bid low on credited hours on a month. I strategically block all my work up at the beginning of the month so as to avoid a forced assigned trip at the end of the month

:confused:


Maybe you've been lucky or maybe that's a consequence of Short Haul roster construction.

Those DEPs considering/heading for Long Haul need to be aware that there certainly pilots, most especially the 744, who have been force assigned extra trip(s) having been at or very close to CAP. The "tweak" is more than a "somewhat" and bidding high /blocking the work at the front of the month certainly offers no protection from "Force Assign" (on any fleet).

[grasshopper50]

My husband had a sim test with BA yesterday and we're waiting to hear from them. Do you know how and when they'll contact him? I'm finding the waiting agony.

[italian stallion]

I want to join BA! :{

[ChaseIt]

Same... Don't know what's harder jumping through all the hoops to convert to EASA ATPL or the thought of the BA selection process!

[Nikonair]

Just got the email that I made it through to round 2 :eek:

[hunter ace]

I have been asked to re-apply to BA.Has anybody here done this.....did you re-do all the questions.....I figure the only thing that has changed is my total hours on the A320. I only got as far as the first assessment day at LHR last time...I wonder what has changed...BA desperation perhaps?
Anybody got any ideas?

[SinBin]

Wiggy, perhaps it is a shorthaul thing, granted it is still a risk, but the lines I go for are the ones with more work at the front, and looking on ibid you will see most RA trips are at the front of the month on shorthaul, as far as long haul especially the 400, it's probably much different. If they had the right numbers in the first place, instead of the constant figure fudge, we wouldn't be talking about this. Anyway sorry for the thread creep!

[wiggy]

hunter ace

I only got as far as the first assessment day at LHR last time...I wonder what has changed...BA desperation perhaps?
Anybody got any ideas?

Yep..just about every pilot in BA knows what's gone on (and it's been mentioned by others in earlier posts), it goes roughly like this:

1. Once upon a time work coverage was getting tight but rather than recruit in large numbers some in management convinced themselves that this shortfall was down to the pilots being lazy or inefficient. They thought they could avoid costly recruitment of costly pilots if they could get rid of significant elements of the scheduling agreement.

2. Management succeeded in getting rid of significant elements of scheduling agreement :mad:....however...

3. Now it seems the cunning plan hasn't fixed things and with an increase in the flying programme, new aircraft deliveries and retirements starting to pick up they're now really really struggling to cover the work and they've got themselves on the back side of the drag curve, so to speak. There's little if any flex left in the system but in any event they start asking for the likes of sell back of leave (but many full timers are ringing the 900 hour bell so that just kicks the can a few months down the road..) ask Part Time pilots to give up days off, and also it seems they are going back into the market place urgently looking for DEPS who they can fast track through the recruitment process because they were needed yesterday - which is where you come in....... :ooh:

SinBin

Tell you what, if you've genuinely found a solution to FA I'd patent it, bottle it and sell it....;) hope it continues to work for you.

[Harry palmer]

Understand why they are targeting Airbus rated to ease the training capacity issue and get the SH numbers up as quickly as possible. But is it likely enough will be sort? Will this apply soon to us non rated guys who just fell short last time? Very much hope so.

[Wirbelsturm]

The fix is easy- return to the old pay scale or at least lose a few steps

Well that's never going to happen!!! They've gone from 'costs flat' to 'cost saving', killed Bidline as it was all our fault that the work couldn't be covered, killed the final salary pension scheme with rumours that it will be closed this year to further accruals, extended the pay points and rehashed duty and working hours just prior to EASA.

Sad to say that there is almost no going back from that, death by a thousand cuts. :{

On the brighter side there is some constructive work going on on the pre departure sandwiches front. (not for you flat earthers obviously!!! ;) )

[Superpilot]

Just got the email to say I can re-attend and all that's required of me is to resit the maths. That's exactly what I thought I failed, probably due to burning myself out whilst concentrating so hard on the other tests. As I've now got a serious shot at making Stage 2, I think I will give it another shot after all :ok:

[Wirbelsturm]

Good luck! :D

[stable_checked]

For those that have been successful, what material did you use to prepare?

[power.on.spin]

Superpilot when did you initially apply?

[Right Engine]

BA need around 200 Airbus rated DEP's right now. Pilots who can do the abbreviated conversion course with minimum sectors/fuss. So if you're being asked back sooner than you thought, there's your answer in black and white.

[Superpilot]

power.on.spin

August last year

[power.on.spin]

Best of luck. Now you know what to expect you'll be fine.

[toplux]

Has anyone with no a320 TR been able to reapply before the 12months?

[Harry palmer]

It appears they want A320 rated only. I'm non rated and got to the Sim last year. I can see why there's the requirement and its great people are being given an early second shot. Are guys getting a recall just to redo the sim? What does it mean for future attempts for non rated people as and when? A change to the recruitment process like that being used for Type rated people on further attempts?

[Wirbelsturm]

HP,

BA is a simple beast and they go for the path of least resistance first. Let the type rated tranche die down first and then wait and see what their next cunning stunt will be.

You might be pleasantly surprised. :ok:

[Harry palmer]

Very much hope so.

[toplux]

I'm in that exact situation HP.It appears they want A320 rated only. I'm non rated and got to the Sim last year. I can see why there's the requirement and its great people are being given an early second shot. Are guys getting a recall just to redo the sim? What does it mean for future attempts for non rated people as and when? A change to the recruitment process like that being used for Type rated people on further attempts?

[JamandJar]

If they only want rated applicants why did they advertise for Managed Path military people? Do they get an A320 type rating when they leave?

[Harry palmer]

The DEP and managed entry is open but the above is referenced to people who didn't get through selection in the last round getting contacted to reapply inside of the 12 month reapplication ban. Those that have been contacted so far are all A320 rated.

[JamandJar]

Thanks Harry - I just wondered why not invite none type rated people too. Surely that ex military people are also none rated?

[Jumbo2]

The pilots applying under the managed path option have a very long lead time before they can actually start their employment with BA. Unlike DEP who generally have a 1-3 months notice period, the armed forces have one which could be anything up to a year. Hence why managed path is probably open since successful candidates will only slot in somewhere over the next twelve months (on the line for summer 2016). While at the same time the rated DEP pilots are fast tracked because of the current requirement for Airbus pilots.

[cessnapete]

Not a large number, but RAF Voyager/A330 crew with the required previous experience, can get an EASA ATPL with Airbus Type Rating, (A330/350)with the Course. AirTanker is also a civil ATO with EASA rated Instructors.

[Wirbelsturm]

The military managed path, RAFCARs as it used to be known, has a long lead in time for the participant. For example the process starts when the applicant is within the last 2 years of their military service.

Oddly enough it is quite tricky getting an EASA licence on anything the military flys except for the Voyager which is run by a civvie company! The RAF managed to spectacularly mismanage the alleviations process from National to JAR to EASA. Go figure.

BA has a history of sourcing from a wide variety of backgrounds, Cadets, Self Improvers, DEP's and Military. Given the large amount of ex-military pilots in the mamangement food chain I wouldn't expect that to change even though the source of ex-military pilots is slowing to a trickle as the vicious defence cuts over the past 2 decades take their toll.

As the recruitment of Managed Path applicants often runs non concurrently to DEP applications there can be no correlation between the two. The process only allows direct access to Braincrank for interview, often without a valid civvie licence. The application process and timeline take this into account.

I'm sure that non-type rated re-applications will occur if and when the flow of necessary type rated applicants is exhausted. Rumour has it that, for reasons given in a previous post, the number of overall applications wasn't overwhelming!

[Harry palmer]

Has anyone been recalled just to attend the Sim or day two? Certainly interesting times at BA.

[VJW]

I know one lad that passed day one and has been asked to redo the interview only...ie pick up from there on day 2..

[Harry palmer]

I take it he's also A320 rated too? Any indication of how many are being recalled?

[Primary Governor]

I was invited last week, I checked the slots available, all were for 22nd, 23rd, 24th of June. I will be on duty in my current roster during those dates so I wasn't able to pick them. Now when I login there aren't any slots available.

I've emailed them but no reply thus far.

Does anybody have any idea how long an invitation to assessment day 1 is valid for? I guess not as long as I'm currently hoping for but just wondering if anyone could share.

[Widebdy]

Invitation is valid as long as recruitment is open I would suspect, but can not confirm.

As for the discussion about recalls and why non rated are not being recalled, don't over complicate the situation with theories or discussions on military V DEP etc. BA need pilots on the line now. Naturally the first port of call is to target rated pilots.

If that does not work obviously the net naturally needs to be extended. Patience.

[Harry palmer]

I see the DEP application has reopened again closing on the 8th of June! Still inside 12 months, unless the recall reaches non rated people. Are they just not getting the numbers applying that's required for 2015?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

If they only want 320 rated, why then advertise for A320/A350/747/757/767/777/787 pilots.

[VJW]

I know I'm bad at verbal reasoning but even I read this-

'The majority of postings will be as an A320 First Officer based at London Heathrow. There may also be opportunities to join our A320 fleet at London Gatwick or our longhaul fleets subject to your experience.'

I don't read that as only wanting A320 rated.

;)

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Exactly. This thread could be misleading some folk from applying.

[VJW]

You'd have to read every post on the last 83 pages to know if this 'thread' has been misleading. The last couple of pages have been us talking about guys like myself that applied and failed at the assessment stage last year, who are now being emailed back early (prior to the normal 12 month minimum reapplication period) to give it another go. Most, if not all the people this has happened to in the last week have failed either day 1 or 2 and are currently A320 rated.

I'm not A320 rated, hence haven't been emailed, but reading the last few pages of this forum over the last week or so and assuming we are talking about the entry requirements posted on BA's recruitment page today, is where your confusion begins.

:)

[Widebdy]

This is a forum where facts and rumours become confused. It should be obvious to anyone applying for any job to read the advert with a fine tooth comb instead of pprune:} . I was surprised at the amount of colleagues who didn't understand 737 pilots could apply in one recent recruitment window. There was also a requirement for a cover letter in one previous window which several people seemed to miss out on because they weren't bothered enough to read:confused:

[Harry palmer]

Have many more been contacted to reapply early? Interesting its reopened again so early. Still within the 12 months for me, very much hope that changes for non rated people.

[JStone]

I've applied and been asked to attend the first assessment. When I try to book it tells me there are no slots available.

Is anyone else in the same boat or had a similar experience?

Thanks

[Primary Governor]

JStone, I'm in the same situation as you. No slots available for over a week now, maybe we missed the boat!

[Primary Governor]

Just received email this morning from BA stating that assessment slots will be available from next week

[macdo]

Having just read the Norwegian thread currently ongoing, I couldn't help but wish the guys/girls above the best of luck with their interviews. You may get one of the few remaining decent #careers# left in aviation. Most of the rest is joining the race into financial oblivion.
Thankfully, only five years to retirement for moi!

[flydog]

Does anyone have any RECENT and positive info on the City Flyer assessment day?

City Flyer thread says see main line thread, but I have been reading for an hour and found nothing?

Appreciate any info as only a week to prepare

Thanks

[VJW]

Off topic but there's nothing positive to say about their interview process from what I experienced in 2011. It's a total mickey mouse ordeal, that tries to copy the BA mainline one.

Maths, verbal tests and the group exercises are what they are. The interview however was almost insulting they way they hashed together a few people not busy in the office that afternoon. Mine was conducted by an FO who had less hours then I did at the time, and some spotty 18 year old temp it seemed, neither of which had clearly ever interviewed someone before, and hadn't even read the questions someone had nicely laminated for them. One read them while the other tried to write down your answers for someone else to read at a later date I presume.

For a cadet I'm sure it's cool, but as someone applying with experience, I could have been made to feel somewhat wanted a bit more then the show they put on.

[light and variable]

They're not a real airline

[BASHLH]

DEP numbers for 2015 set to rise from 311 - 362.

Good Luck to everyone who is applying!

[manflexsrsrwy]

Hi Guys, has anyone had a response who applied on the closing day of May 24th ?
I have received acknowledgement of my application but I suppose no news is good news eh ?
anyone have any different info ?
:ok:

[EMB-145LR]

manflexsrsrwy, it took nearly 9 weeks for me to hear back and get the invitation to Stage One after my application in October, so I wouldn't worry. I know others for whom it took even longer. BA, unlike many others, do actually respond to every application. It would seem that the length of time it takes them to get back to you offers very little indication of whether they are interested or not.

All the very best with the application.

[manflexsrsrwy]

thanks ....

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

I heard BA is to launch Pilot Recruitment Roadshows starting with LGW in June :)

[Papa_Golf]

I've got the invitation for Stage One, however now I'm sick, my screening date is around the corner and there very little chance for me to attend the day. I will phone them to deal with this, but I would like to know if anybody else had the same misfortune in the past. Did you manage to postpone the assessment?

Thanks in advance

[Widebdy]

Papa_Golf in my experience British Airways are very flexible when it comes to rescheduling people who need to postpone their date. Just call them up as per the details on your invitation. If there are no dates available you may have to wait a while - you will just have to log into the online portal as you did to book the initial date.

[Papa_Golf]

Widebody thank you very much!

[kirungi1]

Crew Visa; Who/how is this facility, Entry clearance, into Turkey for short haul, Russian, et cetera and indeed to other destinations where automatic entry is not in any privilege. I suppose this has a bearing on bidding!


In lay, how is entry arranged to certain Visa destinations, such as Turkey etc, at short notice especially for short haul for standby pilots and others?

[Cattivo]

Kirungi1

Try arranging the above post into some sort of sentence. You might get the response you're looking for.

PS Apologies if you typed that whilst completely leathered, that would make perfect sense:)

[kirungi1]

PS Apologies if you typed that whilst completely leathered, that would make perfect sense
Cattivo; Grandpa used to be a master of executive briefs - maybe his influence!:} Thanks for guidance.

[clearofconflict]

It's done with Gendec's and passports from my experience, and has no effect on bidding.

Cheers

[wiggy]

AFAIK the only country that BA operate into that demands crew have a formal printed visa stuck in their passport is the good old US of A, so if you end up going onto a fleet that visits the States you'll have some admin to do during the conversion course and a visit to a nice embassy near you. Every ten years you have to jump through the hoops again.

Most everywhere else it's done a clearofconflict describes, you gain entry with ID and/or Passport by the simple fact that you are on the General Declaration and in the case of the PRC, the company submits your name on the quaintly titled waterguard list....

[kirungi1]

clearofconflict & wiggy; Thank you for your thorough responses :ok:

[dave_1829]

Hey Guys!
i know that the applications closed today (8th June) i had the screen up with the required questions on my Macbook, but accidentally refreshed it and its all disappeared :/ Now getting to my point, has ANYONE still got a copy of those questions they wanted us to answer as part of our application? As i would have completed my licence conversion prior to the next open date, and would love to start preparing those answers beforehand to save time!

Cheers

PS: If anyone has any gossip on the next openning dates, i understand its prob a guess at most - but all answers appreciated :)

[manflexsrsrwy]

got my sod off letter today...very sad :(

[PitchPitch]

Was that after the assessment day Manflx?

[flite idol]

got my sod off letter today...very sad

Very sorry to hear that. I have so many sod off letters dating back decades. I have kept all of them and my retirement project is to wallpaper my downstairs loo with them so I can read them while.........well you know. I probably have enough for your loo too! Chin up........you will get where you want to be. Good luck!:ok:

[manflexsrsrwy]

thanks , i will, got passed the assessment in 2008 but that only resulted in a years swim, since then been consistently told to sod off, 2011, 2014 & now 2015 without even attending crane bank again....puzzling to say the least

[VJW]

That is unfortunate, and makes the whole system look a bit naff- how have you got worse over the years? :)

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

BA is having a roadshow at at Gatwick for experienced airline pilots. Details and tickets can be found here: British Airways Flight Operations Pilot Recruitment Team Events | Eventbrite (http://www.eventbrite.co.uk/o/british-airways-flight-operations-pilot-recruitment-team-8163019932?s=38185487)

Regards

[WHYEYEMAN]

I wonder who they're targeting.......

[glipglop]

Anyone else got their initial assessment on the 24th of June?

Or anyone done the assessment recently, and know what to expect? Thanks! :)

[hautemude]

If you're thinking of it, don't bother since comprehension is quite important!

The presentations are aimed at experienced pilots including those who hold type ratings on any of the aircraft BA currently operates or has on order. We are not seeking attendees who are low-hour or trainee pilots, but if you fall into one of these categories we'd be delighted to meet you at one of the other events we support including Pilot Careers Live, formerly the Flyer Professional Flight Training Exhibition.

[Cavallier]

They might have heard that there are alot of disgruntled Cathay Pacific guys and gals who are either 777, 747 or Airbus rated who might be interested.

[SOPS]

Might be a few EK people interested as well.

[bringbackthe80s]

What should make you wonder is why on earth would BA need to roadshows..? Not a good sign if you ask me

[flyboy1818]

I went to the assessment (tests) yesterday and I'm non rated, with experience on a Biz Jet. I got the overall impression that BA are only really looking for A320 rated people and it seems quite strange that they have invited some non rated people for assessment. Still hoping to hear the good news next week, my fingers remain crossed!

[glipglop]

How was the assessment flyboy1818? Just like the emails or anything out of the ordinary?

Best of luck!

[VJW]

While I'm not A320 rated, it doesn't mention you need to be to attend this seminar. So I might pop by...

[Capn]

Question regarding roadshows at Gatwick

A Flight instructor with 3000hrs, Non type rated, is it worth attending?

Too many hours to apply for FPP, not experienced enough for DEC as no Type rating. Stuck in between the two extremes.

Worth attending?

[binsleepen]

Capn,

I am sorry to say that this is probably not for you. On the bright side though, with all the recruitment that BA is doing, sucking in pilots from other UK airlines, there should be plenty of opportunities come the autumn as these airlines start recruitment for next year.

What should make you wonder is why on earth would BA need to roadshows..? Not a good sign if you ask meThis will be just the first roadshow of many planned across the country. It should allow pilots to learn more about BA, ask a few questions and decide whether BA is for them prior to applying. It may cut down on wasted applications or persuade some to apply who thought they were not suitably qualified. A better understanding of BA and what it does or does not offer cannot be a bad thing surely (don't call me surely)

regards

[sidtheesexist]

I agree BB80s......why on earth should Britain's legacy carrier, hitherto regarded as nirvana to many British airline pilots, be in need of road Shows?? Could it possibly be that folks out there are waking up to the fact that the grass on the BA side of the fence is'nt actually that green after all? I could post a helluva lot more but it might come back and bite me in the arse. Do your research folks to get the TRUE picture of what life in BA is really like. Don't be under any illusions as to how hard the company will work you should you join. I'm not suggesting BA is a bad company to work for but things have changed a heck of a lot over last coupla years and definitely not for the better. Good luck :ok:

[Juan Tugoh]

Do your research folks to get the TRUE picture of what life in BA is really like. Don't be under any illusions as to how hard the company will work you should you join

Find out all you can from people on the fleets you are likely to join, find out from people who have joined recently what life is really like. BA rosters are different from other companies out there - there has been much talk in BA comparing Easyjet and Ryanair rostering to BA rostering, little of it favours BA at the moment.

Longhaul is different but is "evolving", the EASA FTLs that come in later this year are likely to change LH rostering hugely. Life in BA is very different to what it was two years ago when Bidline still existed.

[wiggy]

Juan & Sid - Wise words....

when Bidline still existed.

:=

Exhibit A: My 2010 paper copy of Bidline Rules..
Exhibit B: The latest Notice/e-mail entitled something like: "Work Coverage; this month's attempt to get a quart out of a pint pot...."

[Wirbelsturm]

Bidline?

Ballots?
New System?

Even that is back up in the air! Ludicrous situation all around! :ugh:

[Right Engine]

I reckon the last remaining carrot to dangle is a DE Command at LGW.

[bringbackthe80s]

This will be just the first roadshow of many planned across the country. It should allow pilots to learn more about BA, ask a few questions and decide whether BA is for them prior to applying. It may cut down on wasted applications or persuade some to apply who thought they were not suitably qualified. A better understanding of BA and what it does or does not offer cannot be a bad thing surely (don't call me surely)

binsleepen are you for real? I don't see AF, LH or KLM doing roadshows

[manflexsrsrwy]

Hi all, does anyone have any idea what the " unofficial cut off age" of BA is ? Through the years rumours I've heard vary from 28-32, anyone able to corroborate ? PM me if you prefer...
Surely galley fm has heard something different as there always is an exception to the "rule"

[no sponsor]

There's no age limit. Lots of guys hired in their 30s, 40s etc.

[Primary Governor]

Advertising again with new closing
date:

Airbus 320 First Officer Direct Entry (London - Heathrow)-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/85.html)

I'm due to attend initial assessment in mind July. 0 jet experience and now 30 yrs old, just 1800 TT.

[speedrestriction]

binsleepen are you for real? I don't see AF, LH or KLM doing roadshows

I would argue that, simply put, BA is no longer the employer of choice for those who wish to fly SH and live in the UK. From my own perspective: I cannot be bothered with LHR, the roster is worse than my current airline (5/3 5/4) where I am flying less than 800 hours per year. The financial package is not appreciably different either from what I can see.

BA need to be competing on either remuneration or lifestyle to attract more type rated, experienced folk from the UK to their SH fleet.

[Wirbelsturm]

binsleepen are you for real? I don't see AF, LH or KLM doing roadshows

Sometimes you need to see the forest for the trees! A look at both Lufthansa's and Air France/KLM's current balance sheet, drastic cost cutting and future aircraft order book should tell you a lot about why they are NOT doing 'roadshows'.

A little rumour is going around that a bunch of managers were off to SEA to have a chat with Boeing about a future order of a large twin jet. Wonder which one that might be? Willie Walsh has stated in the past that IAG will no longer be a launch airline. A policy that has borne fruit after the messes that were the A380 and the 787. He also intimated that the order of 16 A350-1000's was a 'stop gap' measure.

A fair bit of smoke and mirrors from the management has resulted in, yet again, a lack of flight crew for this summer. The company wants to expand but is currently struggling to cover the summer flying programme. The source of DEP's is being trolled through, there are few, if any ex-Mil guys coming through and the FPP programme is, currently, choc-a-bloc.

Retirements are starting up again, fleets are expanding and the company is pushing to find people to join. Is it really only and all about T's & C's?

Yes we are all working harder, yes EASA is going to throw the whole mix back in the melting pot but I for one welcome recruitment if it reduces CAP.

All IMHO of course. :ok::}

[Juan Tugoh]

Yes we are all working harder, yes EASA is going to throw the whole mix back in the melting pot but I for one welcome recruitment if it reduces CAP.

That is a huge "IF" there Wirbelsturm.

[Wirbelsturm]

Granted. :{

[Juan Tugoh]

LH command on 777 now down to nearly 1500. Looks like all the changes are finally starting to clear the log jam. Killing Bidline seems to have relieved the logjam caused by the changes to the retirement age. SH commands at 3100 too.

[sandeagle2808]

Dear all,
Happy to read an email from BA to book a slot for Day 1 of DEP :)
I am currently on duty in Asia and very concerned about not preparing properly with the lack of time I have in front of me. For the ones who recently passed this first step: how much time did you allocate to your preparation? Preferable web sites? In total how many tests the D-Day: Math/physics+numerical+verbal reasoning+2 computer tests= 5?
For Computer tests are pen and paper authorized?
Thanks a lot,
sandeagle (would love to increase female FO ratio within BA ;))

[nrn]

Has anyone recently converted an IAA ATPL to a CAA ATPL? BA gave me exactly 12 weeks to covert mine which isn't a lot a time.

Does anyone have experience with the whole process and how long it takes?

[VJW]

Might take 8 weeks, won't be 12. Just chase up the medical stuff from the IAA once the UK CAA has requested all your details, that's what takes the longest.

[Wirbelsturm]

LH command on 777 now down to nearly 1500.

Watch that one, those look to be slightly out of seniority due to the requirment for command courses on type (right to left).

Requires less training assets!!!

A few waifs to come from those one feels.

[OttoMatic]

Sandeagle:

I passed the day one tests about a month ago and still await my day two assessment. I prepared by using the verbal tests from practiceaptitudetests.com which I found quite useful. For the numerical reasoning I just brushed up on general math skills. I wish I had prepared better for the first computer tests, joystick with shapes and numbers (which might sound weird since I passed it :}) while the second computer test is probably quite hard to practice at all.

IMHO the tests are hard to practice in general but I would recommend to do as much as possible to prepare, if nothing else then at least to be able to say to yourself that you did your best if you fail and not to beat yourself up about it. What it comes down to in general is if you have a bad day you fail anyway and if you have a good day you might just pass.

The verbal reasoning was 18 minutes with 32 questions.
The numerical reasoning was 12 minutes with 25 questions
For the computer tests no one mentioned anything about pen and paper but to be honest, I don't think you'll have much time to use them any way.

Hope that helps a bit, best of luck. :ok:

[pomme pilot]

Thanks for all the information on the thread.

I understand that it is impossible to answer accurately. But what is the usual timeframe for cmd at BA? Most of my colleagues are stating 18 years, but Ive also heard less than 10 for a LGW SH CMD.

Are the retirements going to make a discernible difference like they are predicting over the pond? Or is that just wishful thinking?

I am getting on a little in life now, and apart from wanting to satisfy the LHS itch, I also want to make sure I earn enough on the higher pay scales before retirement.

Also, has ALL the most recent recruitment been 320. I understand that is the current priority, but is there any realistic chance of a Boeing slot?

Thanks again for all the good info!

[nrn]

Just been assigned the 777, friend of mine got 747. Both 737 instructor first officers

[SinBin]

And just to throw some petrol on the fire, I've just been told to expect a command in a couple of months, after 4 years in the company!:eek::ok:

[Superpilot]

A reward for you(r) sin(s)? :ok:

[SinBin]

Not sure I'd view it as a reward, slightly terrifying:uhoh:! Movement is unprecedented at the moment, and it's a fantastic time to join! All IMHO!

[Widebdy]

Quote:
LH command on 777 now down to nearly 1500.
Watch that one, those look to be slightly out of seniority due to the requirment for command courses on type (right to left).

Requires less training assets!!!

A few waifs to come from those one feels.

Could you elaborate? At what point do balpa accept sim capacity is an issue? BAs own sim capacity or global sim capacity problems? Surely upgrading out of seniority is a big no no? Are the pilots skipped/delayed compensated?

[BASHLH]

SinBin can I ask do you start your C32X in August? I think I'm Not far behind you.... Mental! Good luck with it all & enjoy, hopefully see you down there 😬

[bluepilot]

Its all exciting for the moment, however this business is very cyclic and it will change! BA is a fantastic career opportunity, but do not expect the current bubble to last, TandC in legacy airlines are becoming less and less attractive with the seniority system, hence the need for road shows etc. With the current system unless you are under 35 you MAY end up with a frustrating career. All I am saying is go in with your eyes wide open :)

[Wirbelsturm]

Are the pilots skipped/delayed compensated?

Yes.

(apparently 'yes' is too short an answer)

:}

[pomme pilot]

Thats excellent news all around! Shame I didn't make the mark back in 2010... Fingers crossed for this time.
Thanks again for the info!

[SinBin]

BASHLH, Sept I think.

[GS-Alpha]

You've got to ask yourselves why are people getting short haul commands after just four years? The answer isn't because of unprecedented movement, or equipment freezes etc.. The fact that more senior FOs don't want the positions should tell you something.

[Wirbelsturm]

Never a truer word said!

[MonarchOrBust]

It tells us, most are hanging around for LH commands at an airline that doesn't have the demand right now? What can be done about that?

[SinBin]

The PP16 thing may also have something to do with it, also for me a junior slot on long haul next year would mean blind lines for a few years. LGW is better for junior Captains than LHR with Carmen bidding. Six of one, half a dozen of another. I'm a quarter of the way up the MSL after 4 years. Expansion in numbers has been real, in that time I've moved up 100 places. Who knows, its right for me now! I'll let you know in 3 years!

No airline is perfect, BA is certainly not a nirvana, but I've worked elsewhere and this is the best gig I've had experience of! But it could be better of course.

[VJW]

I'm going to swing by this open day tomorrow morning at LGW. Quick question on dress code. Sounds silly I know, but don't want to be smart casual when everyone is in shirt and tie, and don't want to turn up looking like I'm in an interview when everyone else is in relaxed wear.

Thanks.

[GS-Alpha]

SinBin, don't get me wrong, my post was not directed at you. I couldn't be happier for you and I think you have made the right decision (not that it should matter to you what someone else thinks). As a junior FO already in short haul and unlikely to get the opportunity to move any time particularly soon, I'd say a short haul Command is a no brainer. There is just one place in BA that is worse than being a junior short haul Captain - being a junior short haul FO, so you are definitely taking a step up. My point though, is that BA short haul is not what it was and so senior FOs no longer want to take the earliest available command. It is nothing to do with any other factor than that.

The suggestion that most 5 year (and above) FOs think they'll get a long haul command within the next 5 years and so are unwilling to take the equipment freeze is totally false. Trust me, that ain't happening and we all know it. I'm 15 years in and don't anticipate a long haul command any time in the next five years - or ten years for that matter! Neither does anyone of my seniority or below who has ever spent five minutes looking at the demographics within the company.

[Flight714]

For VJW - Shirt and chinos. Nobody in suit and tie. Thought they put on a good session this evening, recommended to all if you get the opportunity and are interested.

[ChaseIt]

Flight714, what are the key points from the session, i'm unable to make the session due to distance and work...

[PitchPitch]

Any idea how long it took to hear back with a 'Yes' after the first assessment day?

[RexBanner]

Finished my tests in the afternoon around 16:00. Had the invitation to interview the next morning around 11 o clock. Don't get too carried away if you haven't heard anything though, I suspect it varies.

[wiggy]

GS

I'm 15 years in and don't anticipate a long haul command any time in the next five years - or ten years for that matter!

Have faith, I know that's easy to say from where I sit but I honestly think there's going to be a lot of movement in the next year or two as factors such as the iFad/EASA/pension and tax rules wear us old ****s down and we decide to head off into the sun set....in short be ready for the unexpected.

BTW when I joined some time in the last century I was "promised" a LH command in about 7 years, it was actually nearer 17, so despite current grumbles in reality not much has changed over the years (I never did bid for a SH command, for all the usual reasons..)

[GS-Alpha]

Wiggy

I think you are right about expansion, and that a lot of guys over 55 will choose to retire in the near future. (They've been lucky and have enjoyed a windfall of an extra x number of years as a Captain compared to what they were expecting just a few years before the age legislation changes). However, whilst these factors will help out a lot of senior FOs, it won't get down to the likes of my seniority. At that point, things will freeze up again for a very long time. These new Captains have had their commands denied them for x number of years and they'll want to have those x years back. I therefore predict the majority will stay well beyond 55 all over again. All the talk from BALPA during the BMI deal about loads of expansion etc. does indeed help out a certain number of senior FOs. However, after that, it's just waiting for dead mans shoes all over again. A lot of people failed to appreciate that point at the time, and BALPA chose not to point it out because it suited their cause. I'm very confident that I'll not achieve the seniority for a long haul command until over 20 years in, and probably close to 25.

But I appreciate the thought :o)

[Flap62]

Wiggy,

With the greatest of respect you have totally missed the point. You had 17 years to command. I have done 15 and could perhaps (if I was completely mad) get a short haul command within 17 years. Times have changed. I know that, but so has my attitude. Why should I go the extra mile for a company that has consistently shafted me at every opportunity over the last 7 years? Well done to you fellas in the left hand seat but the company are dreaming if they expect any loyalty from us "right hand seaters".

[Juan Tugoh]

In commercial aviation anyone (on either side. company or employee) that expects loyalty beyond three months notice is deluding themselves.

[Superpilot]

PitchPitch, I received a positive response 4 days after re-sitting the assessment very recently. Looking at stage 2 slots, there appears to be nothing for the next month!

[kirungi1]

superpilot; nice one :ok:

[sandeagle2808]

Hi All,
My selection starts in a few days and they are still ambiguities:
- Numerical reasoning: are there some graph analysis?
Second Computer test: are posts on latestpilotJob correct? about a long test with TCAS...?
Thanks,

[glipglop]

Sandeagle2808! Are you at the assessment process next week? I am looking for advice as well. Any help would be appreciated guys! :)

[JW411]

I simply cannot believe that it still takes 17 years to get a command in BA.

Can anyone joining BA right now even begin to understand what BA will look like in 17 years time?

It really is not very encouraging.

[MonarchOrBust]

That's 17 years to achieve a LH command. SH command, as has been demonstrated can come in at under 5 years.

[sandeagle2808]

Did anyone attend the BA Pilot Recruitment Seminar?

[TopBunk]

JW411

Why is it surprising?

Someone joining now at 25 will have a 40 year career. Assuming normal P1:P2 ratios, why would you expect to have more than half your career in the LHS, especially on LH?

Re your q about what things will be like in 17 years. I grant you than no one can predict any airline will survive, but if BA does survive (and I hope it does for my pension), I suspect that the conditions will be better/as good there than elsewhere in the UK/Europe.

Far from being discouraging, I would counter that with the growth in pilots within BA (3200 to 4000 in the last 5 years), in comparison to other 'legacy' carriers around Europe, things are looking quite hopeful. Sure, there are 'growing' pains with not enough pilots at present, but would still rather have that problem than the ones at Iberia and Qantas and ... and...

[G-IZMO]

Any (non-rated) applicants who succeeded at stage one who had waited a few days before receiving a good news e-mail?

[matt85]

Hello,

I've had a skim through this thread but couldn't find a current and conclusive answer to my question.

Just wanted to ask if it is still possible and realistic to join on a longhaul fleet, depending on background? I have c.3000hr A330/340. No 320 or Boeing time though. If so, is there any chance you could be offered a start on the 777, for example, and rock up on day one to be given a 320 course? (the old bait and switch...)?

Basically I would really like to join BA but in truth I have already had my fill of abysmal rosters and wouldn't be willing to start again from scratch for a minimum of 5 more years!

Cheers,

[FGE319]

I simply cannot believe that it still takes 17 years to get a command in BA.

Can anyone joining BA right now even begin to understand what BA will look like in 17 years time?

It really is not very encouraging.

I've been given a rough estimate of 5 years for SH from someone within BA already, and as we currently have no ambitions for LH (we're both pilots, 2 young kids etc etc), suits me fine.

[Juan Tugoh]

I've been given a rough estimate of 5 years for SH from someone within BA already, and as we currently have no ambitions for LH (we're both pilots, 2 young kids etc etc), suits me fine.

Things change fairly rapidly within BA. This year some will be getting commands one at a very junior level, but that is not indicative of anything. Last year the time to SH command was 15 years or so. What it will be next year or the year after is anyone's guess.

Many factors affect the time to command, some internal to BA some external. These factors are very hard to predict and are not necessarily consistent on a year by year basis.

TopBunk made some valid points regarding length of career and time to command. there are c 4000 pilots within BA, there are more FOs than captains as we use heavy FOs on LH.

SH rostering at the moment is changing and becoming more difficult. LH is likely to follow in the next year or so. Those that look to BA and think of BidLine are living in the past, BALPA has effectively allowed that to be destroyed. Consequently, this year there has been much jockeying for position, BA have also introduced new types while reducing old aircraft numbers.

All this has lead to a massive increase in the training burden, the old "truths" are changing, the jumbo is not the best fleet to be on, but a new best fleet is still a matter of opinion. Part time is becoming more desirable, some of the older pilots are now starting to retire earlier, rather than staying to 65.

Pension and tax laws are affecting the situation as will any global events like the global economic crash of 2008. No one know how the possible Grexit will affect the European economy. Life is uncertain and all that affects time to command.

I would take the estimate of 5 years with a pinch of salt. It could easily be right or massively wrong.

Work on 10 years for SH command and hope to be surprised, not disappointed.

[Beyfan]

I am also looking for any additional info for 1st day assessment😀 please

[jetting]

Hi,

I've got my sim at Cranebank coming soon and have 2 questions...

- I understand that bidline is going. Does anyone know what it is being replaced with and if there will be any control over rosters in the future. My current airline uses a 'preferences' system which seems to try it's best to not match these preferences. Having some control over my roster is a big attraction for me.

- The job advert mentions an 'income transition scheme' in relation to the pension scheme. Can somebody shed light on this?

Thanks

[Private jet]

The best question they could ask during the assessment is "Do you enjoy dining alone on a table for one in restaurants?"....

[Stocious]

If you find yourself often dining alone in BA, perhaps it's worth asking yourself whether the problem really does lie with your crew...

[BA_Baracas]

Haha pj.

I've been in ba for nearly 16 years and while it's far from perfect, I have NEVER dined alone, and I go out for dinner every night I'm down route.

Maybe it's you?

[no sponsor]

No one knows what the new bid line is going to look like. BALPA gave away one of the greatest aspects of life in BA. They might have got rid of forced draft, but it's been replaced with Roster Assign, which for many is pretty much the same, except it happens every month, whereas forced draft didn't. The days off you bid for can be assigned work after the final roster is published. BALPA agreed bid line was broken and we had enough pilots. 400+ pilots have been hired since and we still don't have enough pilots, but we've lost bid line. Now at the behest of BALPA, it's all up in the air again. No one knows what Is going to happen now. We've got another vote coming up, but no info as of yet. I see the propaganda machine is being fired up though. Reading between the lines, however....

On Short Haul we spend hours sitting around in the T5 canteen on the most inefficient roster you could hope to publish, but that's lost on BALPA too! Still, we lost bid line and got nothing in return.

There are a hardcore of CC commies. It's easy to identify them and due to their hatred of pilots and of BA they tend to sit in their hotel rooms. I've had some good nights out, mostly with mixed fleet though...:cool:

[SinBin]

Amen to that, at least there's Yammer:ugh::ugh:

[Juan Tugoh]

Roster Assign is more convenient if you commute from Canada though:}:eek:

[Chief Brody]

It's not as simple as...

Mixed fleet = fun
Euro fleet = pilot-hating-commies

Some of the best at-work nights I've had have been totally impromptu back street bars in the wee hours with EF blue-rinses whose 'Customer Plan' photo suggests they'd prefer to be tucked up at 7pm watching Poldark with their cat.

Conversely I've dined with 4 gorgeous iPhone/Facebook obsessed MF girls who've momentarily detached themselves from tapping away to chat about Britains Got Talent thinking to myself: get me the :~%k out of here!

I flew with an ex-BMI* guy a few weeks back - one of the nicest people I've ever met - we arrived at the hotel after a 30 minute bus ride with the EF crew who we'd been chatting to and laughing with the whole way, skip suggested a beer I was wiped so abstained, all the cc said the same. Next day I saw him and he relayed that he'd gone for a glass of wine only to spot the entire crew walk by. I reiterate that for 30 mins everyone had been pally and full of banter on the bus, then they went and flat out lied. Weird.

It'd drive you mad if you cared enough to try figure it out...

* CC refer to ex-BMI pilots as Barry's and the rest as Nigel's

[sandeagle2808]

Hi all,
Has anyone already seen any graph analysis in Numerical reasoning test of DEP day 1?
Thanks,

[VJW]

There isn't any...just 25 very simple questions.

[sandeagle2808]

Thanks VJW.
For computer tests: are commands inverted? (if the bar goes to the left I have to push to the left, of the bar goes up I have to pull down)?
Any advice about the second computer test?

[nrn]

Is there anyone who can give me an insight of the 777 roster for a very junior FO? I start in September and I'd like to know what I'm up for.


Also, does anyone have any experience with getting a criminal record check from Spain and Germany? I've never actually lived there but I was based in both countries for longer than 6 months..

[Megaton]

nrn

I've just had a quick and the most junior guys on the Triple are getting 4/5 trips per month but with such a huge variety it's hard to generalise. For example, six from the bottom is a SIN-SYD which some consider senior. Not much further up is a 5 day St Lucia (with shuttle unfortunately). There's also the usual mix of HNDs, NRTs, TLVs, DFWs etc. Not much help I suspect but the work does seem fairly well spread out. You will be on Blind Lines so it's up to the company to ensure you meet CAP (your contracted monthly hours).

[City or Jet]

Stay at Thomson (?) mate

[BAP]

Stay where you are mate. Only consider it, if you are offered LH and even then think very carefully about it.

My life outside work has deteriorated massively, and it is now apparent that unless I get LH soon, I will have to apply for part-time to be able to have any life outside work.

Being ex-Thomson (made redundant) now BA SH. (approximately half way up the SH Seniority list.)
Very rare to have more than 3 days off in a row, mostly 2 days off 4,5 or 6+days on, then 2 days off. No control over days off, as they can force assign you work up to a week before the beginning of the month.
No gold/silver days, so anything important you have to book a weeks leave.

Most days are very long, with a lot of wasted time. More and more 4 sector days are appearing on the roster and this is expected to get even worse with EASA.

Earlies 5-7am, lates 12-3pm.

10mins on the bus form the carpark, but it can be difficult to find a space, so allow at least 20 mins but ideally more.

[Northern Monkey]

No control over days off, as they can force assign you work up to a week before the beginning of the month.

I don't think that is entirely fair. We've been living under so called "force assign" for nearly 12 months now and I've been stung only once, and I haven't been working to CAP + 3 or 4 every month or anything ridiculous like that. Most of the time I get the days off I need (I am about 40% from the top of the Airbus at LHR). Sensible bidding offers a level of protection. Nevertheless I do agree that there is no way to cast iron guarantee a day off without having leave booked. But then, draft in some form has always existed at BA.

I would concede that increasingly I never seem to get more than 2 days off in a row, July being a good example. There can be no question we are working as hard as I ever have in a flying job. We are however, hopelessly short of pilots and the situation will doubtless improve as a) more pilots are recruited and b) CAP necessarily starts to reduce towards the year end to avoid an overrun.

As a very junior FO you would, without doubt, find yourself working nearly every weekend and probably not having more than 10/11 days off a month during the summer months. That's how a seniority system works, at the bottom of the pile you get little choice over what you do. Quite how EASA will affect rostering at BA is a big unknown at the moment but it probably won't be for the better.

I support the various other comments made about BA being a good, secure job with good training and almost always you fly with good people. The camaraderie with the crew is non existent a lot of the time though and would probably be a big shock coming from a charter airline. That's not to say you don't have a good night out every now and then, but it's rare.

Average number of 4 sector days in a month is around 2 at the moment.

Hope that helps.

[Father Fintan Stack]

Are things really that bad when compared to the vast majority of regional and charter outfits within the UK and Europe? For example, I can't imagine many operators, if any, are a Mon-Fri existence and particularly at the regionals, 4 sector days are the norm.


I would be very much interested in finding out more about the lifestyle and perks of a recent entry to the SH fleet, for example...


Sample roster
Days off
Ability to get certain days off in advance (i.e. 4-6 weeks)
Ability to get leave booked well in advance
Staff travel (when eligible)
Length of working day


Also, I have been told that a hold pool is used for successful candidates? As someone who is part of the way through the selection process, it would be interesting to know how long people are spending in that hold pool once they get the nod from BA. Does anyone know current waiting times for a contract to be offered?


Thanks all.

[wiggy]

My fourpence worth on the stuff not specific to shorthaul.

Leave is allocated twice a year (two "seasons"). Keeping it simple you get a couple of weeks in the "summer", couple of weeks in the "winter" season. You also get a Duty Free Week in each season...Roughly speaking the lead time for leave is around 6 months (e.g. bid in the Spring for winter leave), lead time for a DFW 2-3 ish months minimum (e.g. we're bidding now for the winter DFWs). There's a points system to ensure that the senior pilots don't perpetually hoover up the attractive dates.



Ability to get certain days off in advance (i.e. 4-6 weeks)

Aside from compassionate reasons and possibly days off associated with a reserve block there's effectively Nil/zero/nada official mechanism in place to guarantee a specified single day off on a full time contract. Obviously (?) your first option is to frame a suitable monthly bid around the day in question, but even if you do manage to be successful at the end of the rostering process you might still up being Force Assigned (FA) extra work, possibly neatly clobbering that special day off that you thought you'd managed to keep clear. About the only hope than is that you can find someone to swap with.

If you really need a day off you need to embed it in a leave block or a DFW - and you can't do that with 4-6 weeks notice.

[Father Fintan Stack]

Thanks Wiggy, that's really kind of you to take the time to explain things. Also thanks to everyone else 'in the know' at BA who are helping out with information.


Interesting points about leave, particularly the points system. Maybe there is hope that a lowly FO may be able to get that one particular school holiday week at some point in the first few years of their BA career?


Can understand the frustration around not being able to get that one particular day off - personally speaking, I'm quite happy to work hard in between days off etc. as long as I know they are set in stone.


I'm quite interested in staff travel - can crew use it to travel in premium cabins on a regular basis and if they chose to do so, pay slightly more to guarantee a firm seat?


Thing is, when all is said and done, the deal that BA offers is still one of the best options in the UK and Europe.


Once again, my thanks.

[EMB-145LR]

Regarding the hold pool wait, it seems to vary. I was in the pool for a month to the day from hearing I'd be successful. I know of people that haven't even dipped a toe in the water and were given course dates along with the good news that they had been successful. I also know of one guy that has recently waited nearly 10 weeks to get a course date.

[wiggy]

can crew use it to travel in premium cabins on a regular basis and if they chose to do so, pay slightly more to guarantee a firm seat?

Without getting too specific:

After 6 months (I think) you can buy an unlimited number of basic economy standbys, or more expensive enhanced standbys which improve your chance of a seat in a premium cabin.

Each year the individual also has an entitlement to buy a (very) limited number of bookable tickets which have enhanced boarding/premium cabin priority...however even though they are sometimes called "firms" you are still vulnerable to being offloaded in favour of commercial pax.

[Iver]

What percentage of newhires are getting Airbus LHR?

[bluepilot]

even in the old days a "firm" was never a "firm" , misuse of the english language in the highest order!

[Amigo South]

An interesting thread - to which I'd like to add my view.

Joining BA is obviously no longer the clear cut decision that it used to be. Our managements eagerness to join the race to the bottom (and BALPA's willingness to help them) means that there is little left to differentiate BA from other airlines. To put it very bluntly, if you have an easy drive to work, like who you work with and enjoy what type of flying you do then don't bother coming here unless it's as a LH DEP and even that needs some consideration.

Sadly BA is very much 2 different airlines, LH and SH. On LH you'll get to fly a heavy jet around the world and will probably get 14-15 full days off at home every month. You'll have limited exposure to LHR and the M25. Not a bad job but God only knows what bidding system will be in use 18 months from now and as previously stated you will not be able to guarantee a single day off in any month unless you have leave. If you never want a SH command, be prepared to spend 20 years in the RHS.

SH is another matter altogether. You'll fly 800+ hours but will also spend as much time again on duty. Expect 10-11 days off a month with mostly only 1 or 2 days off at a time. There are 2,3,4 and 5 day tours - the majority with 3 sectors on the first and last day. Mid-tour 4 sector days with 3 aircraft changes and 4 sets of cabin crew are not unheard of. There are long airside turn rounds of up to 3.30hrs, spent in dirty, windowless airside canteens. The impact of EASA FTLs later in the year is a huge worry - 5/6/5 anyone? Also do not under estimate the frustration factor of working out of LHR. 20 minutes to get from the car park to T5, 20 minutes to taxy out, 10-15 minutes holding to get back in and then a long wait for the bus to take you back to the car park after work (up to 45 minutes after 10.30pm).

More importantly, BA is not a nice/happy place to work and the working/socialising relationship with cabin crew is unlike any other airline. There is still a great deal of bitterness and hatred from a number of CC (this was evident before the dispute too). Thankfully on SH there is a nice mix of EF, ex-BMI and MF so every now again you'll have an enjoyable night stop. There are some great guys/girls on the FD but be prepared for those with limited emotional intelligence who will moan about their crystallised APS pension and their property portfolio, whilst you're wondering how you'll ever get on the property ladder!

You'll never get a consensus from BA pilots about whether or not to join because our opinions very much depend on our fleet/ pay scale/ pension. However, it does not take a genius to realise that a senior pp24 744 Captain will have a very different lifestyle to a junior pp1 or 2 Airbus F/O and that lifestyle and level of remuneration has gone - no matter how much BA/BALPA promise jam tomorrow.

Finally, BA at the moment is all about the money. Everything boils down to cost and there is no care for the employees or the value that they can add to the company. If I had to make my choice again in today's climate I would not join - and I was a DEP on to LH!

[Sky115]

What is life like flying SH at LGW? I'd like to be LGW based and not currently interested in LH. Just wondered how different it is to the LHR rosters.

Many thanks.

[Tay Cough]

Same as you get now, except the A319s are blue and white and you don't get a predictable roster. There's a preference bidding system called Carmen which is almost not worth using. Once again, seniority wins but there's not a lot in it between junior and senior. The only positive of note is that once your roster is out, it's effictively set in stone.

If you're not interested in LH and have a command in the immediate offing, for your own good stay put.:uhoh:

[ChaseIt]

So applications close soon, any speculation when they may reopen?

[Amigo South]

ChaseIt,


I would imagine very soon! 350+ pilots needed this year with rumours of similar numbers for next year. There's a greater take up of part time and parental leave now, plus an increase in retirements. The managers are already saying that summer 2016 will be as bad as summer 2014 and 2015!


Our roster assign process finished yesterday. This is basically enforced overtime after final roster publication. It is very depressing to see the number of pilots on the Airbus who have had their only weekend off in the whole of July filled with a forced overtime 2 day 6 sector trip. So what is the point of bidding?! This issue on it's own is pushing people into retiring early or taking part time.

[Lead]

Does anyone actually enjoy working at BA!? :confused:

[Primary Governor]

I'm going to the initial assessment next month. Of course I'm far from passing at the moment but, the comments here about SH life are depressing me :{

Makes it hard to study bloody numerical reasoning and the like!!

[Superpilot]

Depressing indeed. If it's one thing that gets on my tits it's inefficiency and hanging around doing nothing. I've flown for an operator where we also often had 2 sometimes 3 aircraft changes per day. That adds to fatigue. Going for stage 2 next month, I hope the truth is somewhat better than described above!

[wiggy]

Does anyone actually enjoy working at BA!?

Some do...I actually enjoy most of my working days but then I'm in that minority group that is Long Haul, part time, on PP a lot....(but I hasten to add not APS:ooh:). TBH haven't run into to many problems with the Cabin Crew/Flight Crew divide...but yes, it does exist.

OTOH I very much recognise the sentiments that Amigo South used in his/her excellent description - recently my shorthaul colleague have used words/phrases such as "nasty"/"horrible"/"untenable in the long term on full time" to describe their feelings about work and the work place.

.