BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[RHINO]

Ah yes RexBanner but that does not mean there was not the odd wetdream last night.....

[FACoff]

Can anyone elaborate? Is 200-250 genuine?

[RexBanner]

Haven’t seen anything on yammer or the usual channels to elaborate further but I recently had a four day trip with a trainer and he quoted the same figure.

[EllanVannin]

It came from a Chief Pilot video. A figure of 200 was mentioned. Interestingly, this is before the impact of the Monarch slots is taken account of. Good luck to all those in the pool. Sounds positive to me.

[RudderTrimZero]

How many in the hold pool right now? I would guess less than 50 FPPs would be ready this year?

[Retrojet]

Seems that all the new routes/expansion from the monarch slots have been announced on BAs website.....all Europe beach/leisure routes!

[student88]

60 FPPs to join from Dec 17 onwards.. I thought we only had 100 in the hold pool.

[Northern Monkey]

Retrojet

Whatever the plan for them is in the short term, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about their use beyond 2018. It may well be the plan to transfer them slowly across to long haul as was/is the case with the BMI slots at Heathrow.

[Retrojet]

Fair enough....but even for short term....good news for TR'd guys and girls, well I guess it depends on the leasing of Qatar and Titan aircraft initially and then what ever happens in terms of sourcing extra aircraft

[Jet Set Willie]

BA Cityflyer now flying some of the routes till the end of the year at least confirmed.

[Retrojet]

I wonder how all these leased aircraft will affect recruitment for us lot.... BACF, Qatar? and Titan?

[Jumbo2]

Retrojet the Monarch slots will affect the amount of intake in a positive way. Using BA Cityflyer, Titan and Qatar is more expensive then having (bigger) BA aircraft operate these slots.

The post from Jet Set Willie is incorrect, there is a lot of wishful thinking within BACF, but so far BACF will only operate a few slots out of LGW, mainly in the weekend, from the 9th of Feb till the end of the winter season. This is when mainline think they have enough aircraft to do these flights themselves.

[Love_joy]

I understand recruitment have been contacting those who were rated previously to clarify their circumstances, I guess something is about to start somewhere.

Can anyone clarify the latest info?

[Retrojet]

Which ratings were they asking about?

[one day soon]

"Can anyone clarify"

Approx 200 this year, 60+ are cadet with the rest dep
Expecting it to be similar numbers each for the next 4 years
Could be more if lots leave over the current pension and bidding system changes

Source : top horses mouth

[Retrojet]

Any ideas when the next lot of movement will happen? I know they said next update will be mid-January....any rumours floating around.

[student88]

Hopefully soon Retrojet but the new flight ops manpower department seem to like saying they'll give updates which never turn up on time.

[tfly737]

Min 30 Direct Entry onto the 787 this year.

[keepitlit]

80 new FPPs who have already started to filter into the training system
200DEPs to be recruited with airbus type ratings first.
No DE longhaul until airbus requirements filled or pool of type rated airbus drys up!
As for next year, it’s anyone’s guess, as with this year and with previous years its all reactionary. They do not seem plan for more than 12 months ahead.
However pilot numbers in 2019 are expected to exceed 5K. (Currently about 4100+) :ok:

[frozenpilot]

TRE who did my recent sim said trainers had been told at a recent meeting we need to recruit at least 300 this year. This was without having factoring the Monarch LGW slots. Training managament had also advised we are becoming very short of F/o's on long haul. Factor in the announced expansion of long haul and the deployment of people later in the year for the arrival of the 350.... Seems like it's all about to kick off again!

[thetimesreader84]

I realise you could still make an argument for it being “mid January”, but has anyone had the promised update from recruitment?

[Mizar]

Nope not yet I hope it is going to come next week, they were even talking about another web conference so will see

[nrn]

Min 30 Direct Entry onto the 787 this year.

Who gave you that information?

[student88]

They're waiting on an update from network planning regarding the Monarch slots and the 787 fiasco before announcing anything, but that doesn't mean to say any of the above is true.

[4468]

No DE longhaul until airbus requirements filled or pool of type rated airbus drys up!
Highly unlikely to be the case. Due...
we are becoming very short of F/o's on long haul. Factor in the announced expansion of long haul and the deployment of people later in the year for the arrival of the 350
Any internal bidders for RHS LH who are unfrozen, will likely be 'released' at some point in the training year, as fast as FPPs/recruits can replace them. That won't be sufficiently quickly to satisfy the LH training sausage machine.

Which is why...
Min 30 Direct Entry onto the 787 this year.
(As long as they get the Tupperware jet fixed!) is quite likely to be an underestimate.

If 'today's' plan runs it's course!

[FL370 Officeboy]

No DE longhaul until airbus requirements filled or pool of type rated airbus drys up!

There's already been 747 and 777 DEP recruitment over the last few weeks

[Retrojet]

777? We were told about 4 x 747s back in December has there been more since?..how many taken onto the 777?

[VJW]

Mate of mine who is probably on here somewhere was called for 777 couple days ago.

[BASHLH]

Yammer has just confirmed 10 777 offers so far! Glad to see things are beginning to move!

[student88]

... and NO 787 DEP!

[Retrojet]

Was that expected?

[Retrojet]

Anyone know if any A320 LGW or LHR offers have been given yet?

[EF1S]

Yes they have. LGW.

[Retrojet]

Great news....any idea how many?

[RHINO]

Isn't it funny how PPRUNE is the last to know what is really going on:E

[VJW]

I presume the 320 offers mentioned above were to FPP cadets and not DEP.

[JulietSierra6]

There have been DEP offers as well as FPP’s onto the Airbus

[bex88]

I know people in low places and dark corners but PPrune seems to know before me and most of the time before BA too.

[RHINO]

Bex88

The point I was making is that the offers etc had been out for a number of weeks but that those in the know had elected to keep stum. PPRUNE is not the font of all things aviation.

[Retrojet]

Does anyone know how many a320 offers went out.....any other offers made?

[wiggy]

As was mentioned by others a few posts back, defo a handful of offers for the triple, and I think a few for the 744.

[no sponsor]

As someone on the 744 in BA, we're definitely short of FOs...loads of uncovered work and the caps are high!

[Jumbo2]

As someone on the 320 in BA, we're definitely short of FOs...loads of uncovered work and the caps are high (5 hours above normal cap)!

60+ are leaving the fleet in the first quarter heading to long haul fleets and are in training at the moment.

[student88]

FOs on long term sick, FOs dossing about giving power point presentations on JSS whilst the rest of us work our asses off, the CAPs will always be high.

[bex88]

Student88 😂 the JSS bit...love it so true

[SinBin]

One in particular!

[followthegreens]

With a guess of around 600 FOs SH at LHR, a reduction of 7 FOs for JSS training brings a CAP of 90 hours to 91 hours. I can see why you're working a lot harder. Poor you!

[wiggy]

I’ll admit to sometimes wondering about some of the reps time, but before chucking brickbats I suppose someone has to ask: have those doing the JSS training been pulled off line to do so or are they just doing the “job” in their normal BALPA days but are visible for once.

FWIW there’s at least one Longhaul C status list where CAP is well above normal and I somehow doubt that is down to individuals getting involved in JSS training.....

Basically everybody on a fleet with working engines seems to be pretty busy....:E

[NLP]

Actually the rosters for March are pretty :mad:. CAP is 93:11 for FO's on the Airbus. Out of 307 trip lines only 11 of them will be sufficient for me to reach CAP. If this is March, what's the summer going to look like.

Would be great to see new guys coming in.

Obviously it's not the 7(?) guys out of the 479 FO's leading to the high CAP. It's the many people being promoted to LH or Captain (fantastic news btw). If I would run the show I would start at the bottom and make sure we have enough FO's on the Airbus before people leave the fleet, but I guess the beancounters don't want to have 10 FO's too many on a fleet...

Edit: Reading Wiggy's post, everyone seems to be working hard. Hope they get the recruitment machine up and running to the maximum.

[wiggy]

If I would run the show I would start at the bottom and make sure we have enough FO's on the Airbus before people leave the fleet,

Err....right, nice in theory, ideal world etc, but be very careful with that thought.

[followthegreens]

have those doing the JSS training been pulled off line to do so or are they just doing the “job” in their normal BALPA days but are visible for once.

The 7 JSS trainers do about half their CAPs with Ground Days, either writing material or doing presentations, etc. So in fact it's 3.5 FOs worth of available FOs that have been taken away from the 320. None of them are BALPA reps. Normal line FOs who applied for the job.

[wiggy]

Ah OK, I haven’t been in a position to actually attend one of these sessions so far but I stupidly assumed (yes I know) they were reps so many thanks for clearing that up.

[student88]

Writing material? Like stand up comedy?

Must be nice collecting all those Caffè Nerro stamps I guess.

Even a CAP increase of 1 hour can make the difference between having to pick up another day trip or not.

90 hours = 20 x 4.5 hr credit day trips, so 100-140 trips to be picked up by everyone else, so essentially 100-140 people with one or two less days off.

[appleACE]

The only job for experienced pilots advertised on the BA website at the moment is for Cityflyer DECs.

[wiggy]

:confused:

Err ...that’s no doubt true because of the FPPs arriving and the DEP hold pool

[nrn]

Expect some DEP 320 rated soon. They'll get as many 320 rated guys from the pool if possible to do a short typerating. Current holdpool non rated pilots might be surpassed by a new DEP round for rated guys/gals.

About 170 DEPs still in the holdpool. With the current plan all of those will get an offer in 2018. (Perhaps not on the position you have applied for (LH))

Horse's mouth

[RexBanner]

They'll get as many 320 rated guys from the pool if possible to do a short typerating.

And they’ll receive a five year freeze for that whopping three sims on the Operators Conversion Course.
(Dons flak jacket, retreats to safe distance).

[Saab0409]

Current holdpool non rated pilots might be surpassed by a new DEP round for rated guys/gals.

I hope that’s for short haul only? I reckon there won’t be too many 74/77/78 rated guys and gals in the pool. Seeing as one has entered the LH pool as a regional jet jockey, one hopes to receive a call :)

Thanks for any updates from within lads! Much appreciated.

[nrn]

From what I gather, there is no LH pool. There is a BA holdpool. Might not be the news you want, but managing expectations and all of that.

(Hope you'll get what you applied for of course, but be prepared for something else).

[Saab0409]

Of course, theres only one pool. Should’ve been more precise. I applied to the LH campaign back then. If a SH position comes around I’ll be happy to take it! It’s just being passed by type rated guys left right and centre is sometimes not easy. But it’s their train set!

[VJW]

Well that’s 3 RYR guys I know of, off to BA. 1 747 and 2 777. If they were plucking rated LH DEPs out the pool then clearly they’ve exhausted them all, that or they’re just going down the list in order. Either way it’s good news for you Saab. Especially as their last email said they’d be no DEP offers in 2018. You’ll get your call soon don’t worry.

Plucking type rated guys out the pool is understandable. Last I checked, I’ve not received anything that says we’ll be called in the order we entered the pool. Very very first email mentioned that, ‘when matched with a pilot position in the airline, you will be contacted and given a verbal offer.’

[Saab0409]

I wonder if people with a 737 rating will have a shorter course? I know, bit far fetched perhaps but I do believe Qatar airways did do a shortened course for small boeing to big boeing.

Perfectly understandable if they have a huge need for Airbus guys and need em ASAP. It’s all good news to be honest. From no DEP to at least a few :)

[Threethirty]

No it won't be a shortened course, far from it!

[MikeAlpha320]

Any idea of split between LHR/LGW?

[Jumbo2]

On the SH airbus fleet leave buy back is now being offered for this summer for both first officers and captains.

I presume this is very positive news for the hold pool pilots.

[Jwscud]

The latest company newsletter states rated DEPs joining the 777 in April, with more to come. Also anticipates DEPs on the 787 later in the year. Add that to those I know one way and have had long haul offers recently, there seems to be a fair bit of movement again all of a sudden. Good news for all!

Goes to show that any news from pilot recruitment, who, like everyone, are subject to the vagaries of the Big Plan, is accurate up to 0.01ms after the send button is pressed.

[wiggy]

Goes to show that any news from pilot recruitment, who, like everyone, are subject to the vagaries of the Big Plan, is accurate up to 0.01ms after the send button is pressed.

Ain’t that the truth...though you might need to revise that figure to 0.001 milliseconds due to the introduction of JSS..., which, rumour has it, is leading to some of the current difficulties with predictions/forecasts regarding manning levels... .:oh:

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for everybody over the next few months:

For those already “in” will Bidline monthly rostering get a stay of execution? (edit to add: Just read something that might lead one to believe there might indeed be a temporary reprieve..though that would lead to high CAPs..there's a surprise)...

For those waiting to get into BA just how quickly and by how much will the level in the hold pool be lowered?

Anyway has been said by previous posters it can only be good news for the hold poolers, though of course 0.001 milliseconds will be up by the time you have read this.....

[bex88]

On the subject of leave buy back I can’t see a big uptake as the deal is not very good.

[RexBanner]

I for one have no intention of giving up eighteen straight days off in peak summer for all the tea in China, especially as the CAPs this summer are likely to be so high. I’m acutely aware in part of the irony that the CAPs will remain high as a result but some respite will be needed.

[wiggy]

For those in the pool (and prospective poolers) planning on travelling to/from LHR/LGW by using staff travel

... you might need to know that we have found out from the union overnight that BA are going to be quite proactive from now on in checking how and when people have travelled into base prior to work - they have just announced a two month audit.. This to ensure crewmembers comply with the latest rules BA have come up regarding personal travel into base and subsequent rest at base prior to a duty. At the moment it seems BA are only going to look at those who fly in using Standby tickets or the discounted commercial tickets available to staff.

I’m sure for the vast majority here that won’t be a deal breaker but be careful about planning a lifestyle based on flying into base the same day as report, or at the very least owning up to doing the same...that might cause problems :rolleyes:

[RexBanner]

Double standards methinks. Especially as British Airways’ own policy for a home standby (ie being allowed to drive two hours to the T5 Car Park) technically contravenes what they consider as being rested. Yet sit back in an airline seat for a (in some cases) 40 minute flight and you’re under the microscope as that’s apparently more fatiguing. It’s sickening.

[banterbus]

Is it too early to say exactly how much this is going to drain the pool; potentially leading to more recruitment later in the year?

[wiggy]

Rex

Double standards methinks.

Absolutely....

banterbus

Is it too early to say exactly how much this is going to drain the pool

Yes..see previous comments about plans at BA being valid for at most 0.01 or 0.001 milliseconds...

[wiggy]

]TBH many drivers can't "get from home.... and report to the LHR reporting point all within two hours".........even on a good day.

That said people are going to have to live with this (or make plans to plan to live with it if they have yet to join - just said that to keep this on thread).

Rumours are starting to circulate that once the flying commuters have been audited to the company's satisfaction then some of the utterly crazy driving commutes that we all darn well know go on will get looked at.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

What are these latest ba rules for commuters. You must plan adequate rest. ie overnight hotel if you reside more than 2 hours from base?

And how will they enforce non-compliance. Temporary removal of staff travel?

[wiggy]

Devil is in the detail and I may well have got this wrong but as I read it even for short haul commuters ( so MAN, GLA, AMS etc) it looks like 12 hours "rest" required between arriving at base using what BA call "personal travel" ( which seems to defined as traveling to base by air) and report for any duty...there is no mention of a local night or a room being required, just "rest".

In fact to my uneducated eye there appears to be room for some sillyness in the rules as written..for example it looks like you could beat the system by getting up at sparrows dodah to arrive at LHR at 0800, hang around in a coffee bar, not working, watch iPlayer or something all day, and then be legal for a 2000 or later report, OTOH you could sleep in at home till gone midday, fly into LHR arriving at 1900 and be deemed illegal for the same report....:bored:

IMHO probably much much more understandably there are more restrictive rules for Long Haul "commuters", even those experiencing a minimal time zone change.

No idea where we are with "punishment"....as yet we are looking at a two month audit. Just a IMHO but hopefully worse that would happen to a transgressor first time round might be a *****ing and a note on file...I wouldn't like to test the system too often though, the rules are in the Ops Manual and I wouldn't like to be the first one up against the wall.

[RexBanner]

Well, if you can get from home, through the local airport, complete the commuting flight and report to the LHR reporting point, at the report time, all within two hours, then yes, you would have a point.

If we’re going to start nitpicking then all crew, regardless of whether they’re commuters or not should have their activities monitored because apparently every activity inbetween lying in bed and reporting for duty could be construed to be fatiguing. But it’s not in the company’s remit to be policing people’s personal lives. We’re all professional individuals and should be given the right to exercise their judgement as to what constitutes sufficient rest and a stressful commute.

For the record and putting my neck on the line I don’t think I’ve ever had twelve hours rest at base in that case before the first day of a block of work - and neither for that matter has someone driving ninety minutes on the motorway - but not once have I reported to work unfit for duty and the number of ASR’s (absolutely minimal and none in any way related to my performance at work) submitted would seem to bear that out.

It is fortunate then that I commute on another airline most of the time outside of the gaze of over officious and prying eyes.

[bex88]

As soon as middle management have got bored it will be some forgotten text to be used for arse covering. It gives very good guidelines on what is not rested though. Anytime you have a min rest turn at LHR just say your are not rested in accordance with OMA.....7 as you don’t sleep in the car park.

[Retrojet]

anyone know if any offers went out this week?

[VJW]

Yes- a mate was called for 777 on Tuesday last week I believe. He'd been in the pool 2 years come April time and they gave him 3 months 2 days notice for a course date

[Jwscud]

The internal course list for April and May was rather short, suggesting the main training load is new entrants of one sort or another. More offers likely to come soon if that is the case...

There are also less substantial rumours of a new campaign for Airbus rated DEPs as they have apparently got the numbers v wrong yet again. Perhaps if they didn’t use antiquated legacy software to do all their manpower planning...

[tfly737]

Lots of LHR 320 FO's have had their 787 / 777 courses binned. There were already planned DEP's to go LH but likely to increase as a result.

[WonderBus]

Where did you get this gem from? Not saying you’re wrong, but there hasn’t been comms from BALPA, as they have to agree all P&P changes, there hasn’t been a massive outcry on yammer.... yet, and the company hasn’t issued anything on it. That said, I can see why the company would do it given the 320 manpower cock up.

[Retrojet]

So whats happened with the A320 "cock up"..... is recruitment looking less likely....have we gone from needing loads to only a few....whats the situation?

[FoxChaRomeo]

I would say (speculating) that it’s a shortage cock up, not an overcrewing cock up. Have heard multiple sources talking of leave buyback offers on SH at LHR over the summer, and offers were made from the pool last week for May start dates.

I suspect the floodgates may be opening. Good luck to all.

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Re the binned SH to LH conversions - anyone with an OK bid who is yet to have a course date would have been a freeze waive. According to NS, the plan now is for no further freeze waives this year. Followed it closely as it looks like I've just missed out. Usual 0.01ms caveats notwithstanding.

Good news for those that want in and are happy to do he LH junior thing. But what about next year? We'll want to be flying those Monarch slots ourselves. Super junior LGW commands anyone?

[bex88]

Time will tell but the whole NAPs thing is supposed to result in commands going senior again.

[Retrojet]

Smokey Lomcevak

When you say "happy to do the junior Long Haul thing"....what do you mean? What's the pros and cons?

[EllanVannin]

Smokey Lomcevak - when you say NS has said there will be no further freeze waives this year, do you mind me asking where you read that?

As one of said people with a potentially cancelled freeze waive, I’m clearly very keen to know about it. Thanks for your help. I can’t see anything on Yammer that says such a thing?

[4468]

Retrojet
When you say "happy to do the junior Long Haul thing"....what do you mean? What's the pros and cons?
Nobody can answer that question as BA pilots are just about to change to a method of rostering that is brand spanking new. Few, if any, have the slightest idea how it will all pan out.

As far as freeze waivers is concerned, this issue comes up from time to time. BA are obviously able to do whatever they wish with pilots during their 5 year engagement freeze. It’s bad news for those already in the company, who wish to move on. But great news for those hoping to join BA on LH, skipping completely the SH ‘grind’!

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Retro: I think it's been done to death, here and elsewhere, and ultimately 4468 says it all: its a massive unknown.

Ellan: look in the comments to a previous thread on there. Not the most recent one. Can't remember which. Expect the "uproar" when the June and onwards plan is released, if my understanding is correct.

Re freezes - it really doesn't mean anything - if one was unfrozen, and one's fleet was more underestablished than first anticipated, there's nothing to stop LH DEP taking place to protect the choke point. Didn't we see that 2 years ago?

[GS-Alpha]

Comment from NS about freeze waivers was made in the yammer thread started by initials RW. My reading between the lines is that they were going to mainly cover the recruitment requirement through FPP to short haul and freeze waiver to long haul. However, the now increased requirement means FPPs alone won’t do it, so they’re cancelling the freeze waivers, putting FPP into short haul, and then any further requirement will just go wherever, from the DEP pool.

[EllanVannin]

Thank you guys. Found it now.

Interestingly, the Yammer post says that “potentially” some of those who’ve had their freezes waived and who are not yet coursed will get refrozen. So there’s still a glimmer of hope from my perpective!

[RexBanner]

Well I for one wish you the best of luck Ellen in the interest of fairness and getting the whole process moving as it should. For those of us a little further down the list this has the potential to delay our moves away from the short haul grind for at least another year on top of the time remaining on our freeze. I’m certainly willing to serve my time but DEP’s coming in and immediately gaining access to a better lifestyle than those hundreds of places above them on the MSL really does stick in the throat, even if I’m aware of the reasons why it’s done.

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Ellan and Rex - it sounds like we're all not too far from one another. Personally I'm secretly a little bit chuffed. I've gained 10% in seniority going into March, and the more I thought about doing a course to slot in at 90% on LH, the less appetising it became. It looks like Spring is going to be hard work at both airbus bases, but that brings opportunities for OT/RDW too.

[RexBanner]

Some FPP courses now being binned...

Without revealing the source, an FPP Cadet with a start date in March has had his course indefinitely delayed. This has come directly from the person involved.

[4468]

If summer is similarly ‘hard work’, it will certainly unveil JSS in all it’s glory too! Best put that back to later in the year!

Surely not ANOTHER case of Flt Ops making promises (to network) their department can not fulfil?

[EllanVannin]

I’m happy for you Smokey that you’re chuffed. I’m not at all though. I’d be slotting in around the 78% point on long haul, so I was feeling reasonably happy about that level of seniority.

As for OT and RDW, stuff that for a game of soldiers. Each to their own I guess.

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Only trying to suggest a way of looking at the positives. I agree I'm in a fortunate position. Best of luck kind Sir/Ma'am.

[RexBanner]

I’m not either Ellen. I’m not even that close to a LH slot but it was nice to imagine that we’d be moving further up the Airbus P2 list and gaining the benefit of better bidding power etc in the meantime. Now stagnation looms again after probably a tiny bit of movement next month whilst a load of guys get onto long haul ahead of those waiting patiently.

As a commuter even the most junior 747 P2 is enjoying rosters that are immeasurably better in terms of lifestyle than those enjoyed in the right hand seat of the Airbus. (Yes I know I choose to commute and I’m aware of that, first world problems and all, but my argument still stands).

The argument that we all slot in ahead of these guys eventually once we move to LH is bogus too or at the very least only applicable for the younger guys. With those of us who are more advanced in years that time lost in the Airbus RHS is precious and also with seniority likely to be legally challenged (and probably successfully I might add) in years to come that only compounds the issue.

Sorry for venting but I fail to see the upside here. I’ll calm down shortly and get on with life though.

[Retrojet]

Rumors of FPP courses now being binned...

Oh that doesn’t sound too good for DEPs? Or are these new courses/new white tails being binned in favour of more DEPs?

[FoxChaRomeo]

I think it sounds very good for DEPs...

Rumors of FPP courses now being binned...

Any more detail on this Rex? I can see the logic... delaying a course of 6 FPPs releases a huge amount of training capacity that could be used to bring many more DEPs onto the line.

At a guess, each FPP trainee needs half a dozen sims (post type rating) and ~50 line training sectors? Against maybe 3 sims and 10 line training sectors for DEPs?

That course of 6 FPP guys who need 300 (minimum) line training sectors could be pushed and allow 30 DEPs in. That alone should take a bit of pressure off the SH fleet? Not to mention sim capacity...

[Retrojet]

Ah ok that would make sense....fingers crossed!

[wiggy]

Reading across various sources I think FoxChaRomeo and others are probably right...

All the signs are that BA have very recently discovered that they need more Short Haul pilots on line PDQ....

[tfly737]

I’m not either Ellen. I’m not even that close to a LH slot but it was nice to imagine that we’d be moving further up the Airbus P2 list and gaining the benefit of better bidding power etc in the meantime. Now stagnation looms again after probably a tiny bit of movement next month whilst a load of guys get onto long haul ahead of those waiting patiently.

As a commuter even the most junior 747 P2 is enjoying rosters that are immeasurably better in terms of lifestyle than those enjoyed in the right hand seat of the Airbus. (Yes I know I choose to commute and I’m aware of that, first world problems and all, but my argument still stands).

The argument that we all slot in ahead of these guys eventually once we move to LH is bogus too or at the very least only applicable for the younger guys. With those of us who are more advanced in years that time lost in the Airbus RHS is precious and also with seniority likely to be legally challenged (and probably successfully I might add) in years to come that only compounds the issue.

Sorry for venting but I fail to see the upside here. I’ll calm down shortly and get on with life though.

More ITSU, it will help you get through 8o)

[Enzo999]

Not everyone has the luxury of choice!

[4468]

Not all DEPs would have taken the SH offer
Anybody who wants to have a long career in BA would!

BA are delighted to show the door to anyone who doesn’t, and wish them good luck elsewhere. There’s certainly no shortage of applicants behind them!

[RexBanner]

heli-wings

I’ve already said I’m perfectly willing to wait my time. What does grind my gears though is that waiting time increasing significantly because of DEPs onto the long haul fleets, all of which I met the requirements for when I joined. With the added pain of in the meantime being significantly disadvantaged in my current posting by more senior guys who should have left my fleet in accordance with their aspirations (given the normal sequence of events) being forced to remain.

That’s not exactly hard to understand. And I’m as much outraged for those who are unfrozen or had freeze waivers who are now being disadvantaged by this.

[wiggy]

....because of DEPs onto the long haul fleets, all of which I met the requirements for when I joined.

Did you have the option of LH when you joined?

[RexBanner]

That option was made unavailable to me because of my Airbus rating, Wiggy. I know for a fact there were turboprop pilots who went direct entry Long Haul after me despite never having flown a jet. Hours were not the issue, the rating was. Anyway I’m going to stop moaning about it now because there’s nothing that can be done and I’m sounding like a stuck record.

[Retrojet]

Those of us in the holdpool have been warned that if we decline the offer made, we will most likely be dropped from the holdpool due to the length of time we have been swimming.... so chances are people will accept anything to get their foot in the door...do the time/5yrs and bid for another fleet if required/desired.

[wiggy]

Rex..

I get where you are coming from...I guess the BA POV was they would have to give the turbo-prop pilots a full TR etc, regardless of which fleet they went on. In your case they could save cash by putting you effectively your existing type...but yes I can see how it grates.

[Icanseeclearly]

Rex,

I understand why you are peeved, I too was only given the choice of SH and joined almost exactly 3 years ago, 9 months later people from my previous company with no jet experience were streamed straight onto LH.

That said we both knew we were to be frozen SH for 5 years so I have no beef about it.

I am now at 40% seniority, one of my friends who went LH is still in the 90% bracket and my pattern of work as a commuter is far superior to his (note - pattern of work, we most definitely work harder but I get more days at home)

With the implementation of JSS and the ability to request working patterns I believe senior SH will be far better placed than junior LH to create and be awarded rosters that work for the , so much so I am seriously considering not bidding for LH this year (for the same reason will not be bidding for command) so I think it’s wait and see time.

From what I understand (from someone in the know) regarding those who had their freeze waived this year, most if not all will get the move but there may be a small number who are refrozen (by no means a given)

Don’t know anything about the FPP courses but if it means more DEPs then we will be working less...

LH will come if that’s really what you want just need to wait, there’s worse places to be - honest.

[efarto]

Can anyone share what the A320 (low seniority) roster at LGW is like? Is it commutable and am I right in thinking it's mostly day trips?

No reason, asking for a friend.

[4468]

I don’t think it’s very smart to put pilots with no jet experience straight on to LH. Sorry, but that’s my view! Particularly the case if there’s lots of heavy sectors on the fleet. That kind of decision is driven by accountants. Not pilots!

OTOH. Yes, joining on SH puts you at, what some consider as, the bottom of the pile. But believe it or not, there are actually some advantages. As has been explained by a previous poster, accelerated progression up the status list being one of them. Particularly significant one imagines with JSS? On SH, since most destinations are frankly, much of a muchness, pretty much the only significant differentiator between the upper parts of the list, and the lower, are the days of the week you choose to work, and access to one or two significant days off in a month, such as birthdays, wedding anniversaries, night School, sporting fixtures etc. You will get that sort of control FAR earlier on SH! Not to mention Xmas at home!!

Alternatively, join LH at the bottom, and spend your life going to the Middle East in the height of summer, or North America in the winter. West coast of Africa or India. If you’re really lucky, you’ll join a fleet that has decent destinations. But you’ll only get to them when nobody else wants to go. You’ll also work every Xmas and probably New Year, that you can’t protect with leave or duty free week! Oh, and best get used to more people joining your status list above you, than below you!

Those who join BA first will ALWAYS enjoy the advantage of seniority over those who join even the following day. In BA (currently!) Seniority is EVERYTHING! If I was offered SH today, or LH next week. The answer is a no brainer! SH today please!!

Life is full of stepping stones. If you moan about SH, you’re probably the kind of person that will moan about LH! Do your damndest to enjoy wherever you are TODAY. Because that’s where you live your life!

[VJW]

Well said 4468 - thats why I'll be turning down BA and going DEC to Easy ;)

Just received an email that mentions BA recruitment to open again for 320 rated guys.

[oleostrutbasher]

VJW by 'recruitment open again for 320 rated guys' does that mean 320 rated people currently in the hold pool or they're going to kick off a new round of the recruitment process? Cheers

[rustynut]

Don’t cut your nose to spite your face. Opportunities like this don’t come around everyday, 6 months ago recruitment looked very dull. Fast forward to now, looks like LH DEP is back on the cards, I recon this is only the beginning! I feel I was very lucky to get the LH fleet I did but I would have taken a SH offer time and time again! Having worked at one of the UK’s other big airlines I will never look back. I was in the company less than a day and I suddenly felt valued, appreciated and treated like a professional. Maybe it’s my attitude but I would think very hard about turning down an offer, after all the hard work you must have put in to get in the pool. You won’t get the same opportunities elsewhere. I generally love working for the company, which was a very different story at my previous! Good luck to you all, I hope you get what you’ve waited so patiently for!

[VJW]

The email says, 'Initial forecasting shows that the majority of offers for 2018 will be to the A320 with the majority being based at LGW. While we have a number of you in the holdpool who have an A320 rating, the numbers that are being predicted mean we will need more ROT A320 Pilots than there are of you in the holdpool so we will shortly be launching a new A320 recruit on type campaign.'

I understand that to mean that every A320 rated guy in the pool now will get offered a SH position eventually, but as there isn't enough of them and rather than type rate those that have been waiting 12-24 months in the pool, to save time and more importantly money they'll see if they can't get more rated guys externally first.

[JulietSierra6]

Can anyone share what the A320 (low seniority) roster at LGW is like? Is it commutable and am I right in thinking it's mostly day trips?

No reason, asking for a friend.

Yes mostly day trips although there are a fair amount of 2-5 day tours around aswell if that’s your thing. I’m in the bottom 20% and still get a reasonable satisfaction from Carmen (takes a while to work out how to get out what you want though!)

Summer was fairly full on as to be expected. I’d say maybe 12 days off per month on average May-Sep. The winter provides a welcome break with more like 15-17 days off per month. All of the above depends on how you bid of course.

[4468]

VJW
Well said 4468 - thats why I'll be turning down BA and going DEC to Easy
You illustrate my point perfectly. Many like you are delighted to do exactly the same thing, in the same seat, (of the same airframe?) for 30 years or more. Visiting the same strips of tarmac but rarely experiencing those destinations. Working the same fixed rosters, and knowing 10 years in advance whether they’ll be off for anniversaries/ birthdays etc. There’s a lot to be said for that kind of life. As I’ve said BA isn’t for everyone. So why did you bother ever applying?

Should BA make you an offer, you’ll have the ‘pleasure’ of turning them down, and BA will be delighted to show you the door, before shouting, “Next!”

[Icanseeclearly]

VJW,

Well done you, I am sure you will be a great loss to BA...

We will miss you on this thread as now you are not joining I assume you will desist from posting.

[wiggy]

...... Is it commutable......? No reason, asking for a friend.

Depends where from and more importantly how...He/she shouldn’t plan on travelling into base by air on the same day as reporting for duty.

[VJW]

I applied before I had kids and my opinion has since changed. No need for all the hostility chaps. I worked hard to pass BA’s assessment and really wanted to join. All I’m saying and I thought I was agreeing with 4468 in that I’ve had to take matters into my own hands and take/be happy with the actual opportunities I’ve been offered.

It’s a shame of course but for 16 months I’ve only ever had emails from BA that ended with, ‘I’m sorry this might be disappointing news.’

Icanseeclearly FWIW, I'm not sure you need to be at or soon to be joining an airline in order to post on 'it's' thread. I note you've been in BA over 3 years yet you have posted on RYR threads within this time. How is it you've been able to do that?

[alpha.charlie]

A320 LGW DEP recruitment now open, come on in!


https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/direct-entry-pilot---a320-1994-gatwick-south-terminal-london/2012/description/

[Smokey Lomcevak]

Re. Commuting to LGW: as mantioned above there are some tours available, but they're generally quite popular in the RHS as guys try and max out their take-home pay. They're generally more popular for FO's than Captains, and you'll see more uncovered ones for the LHS. And who doesn't like an afternoon bike ride pub crawl in Jersey?

I guess you'd definitely need some sort of bolthole. Generally day trips, and you can expect to do one or two trips clearing after midnight each month in the summer. There will be times where it's 6 on, 1 off, 6 on, and no-one will be too far away from 100 hours in 28 days by the time it gets to August/September.

[FlipFlapFlop]

VJW,

Well done you, I am sure you will be a great loss to BA...

We will miss you on this thread as now you are not joining I assume you will desist from posting.

I wasn't aware that this thread was for BA or BA pool sitters only. Like myself, VJW's situation has changed considerably since entry to the pool. He has a command at easy to go to and with a young family to feed that is a significant difference in short term finance needs. An easy command salary now or sit in the seniority list waiting for years for the same at BA. Given domestic circumstances it becomes a no brainer.

[Tricia Takanawa]

Don't blame you one bit VJW. Just to put the finances into perspective, according to PPJN, EZY skipper is on £104k plus £30 per sector straight out of the box. To make the same basic salary at BA would involve 13 years service, plus approx £10ph flying.

In addition you wont be "junior trash" for years, and might see a weekend off occasionally.

No brainer to me...

[FACoff]

Is it really a no brainer though? Yes the finances in the LHS at Easy are wonderful, but if cash was the only consideration then one would also be better off staying put in the LHS at RYR.

I think you'd find a few differences in lifestyle between an Easy skipper and a 13 year BA FO, mainly in favour of the latter... the big shiny salary isn't necessarily always as important as having the control over your life that you seemingly do at BA. Surely a few years slumming it at bottom seniority is worth it in the long run?

[frozenpilot]

Second that... I am a junior 320 skipper @ BA! Not a nice place to be. If one can happily say goodbye to long haul then Easy really is a no brainier.

[Shaka Zulu]

One word of caution:
After 5 years at EasyJet I really needed part time as there was no way I could keep it up full time.
So those figures only work if you manage to do 13 years full time at EZY. I’m now on year 13 in BA and nowhere near feeling I need part time. Of course it would be nice but that’s another story altogether....

[VJW]

Sorry if I’ve caused a thread drift. All I meant to imply was whoever were to call me first out their pool wins. Both are good jobs but I can’t turn down one waiting for the other, especially when the other has kept me waiting well over a year and still suggests a call isn’t coming this year.

[WhatTheDeuce]

I've worked at EZY across a few bases and I'm now a junior SH skipper at BA after around 5 years.

BA is by far the easiest flying I've ever done.

[4468]

I’m genuinely intrigued.

When you say “easiest”, what do you mean?

Clearly you can’t mean time in uniform? So do you mean easiest as far as the colleagues you work with? The base you fly from? The destinations you serve? Rostering agreement? Stability? Opportunity?

What is it that’s ‘easier’?

Thanks

[WhatTheDeuce]

Flying 20% less than I used to, excellent colleagues (same at EZY to be fair), decent number of weekends off even at the bottom, days are way shorter, control over the type of flying that suits you (earlies, lates, daytrips, tours etc), rock solid roster stability, weeks of leave in school holidays, helpful ground team that gives you compassionate / dependent leave.

Downsides are the company is enormous so can be difficult to feel at home when you don’t recognise anybody on a 2 day your with 5 different crew. Slighty awkward aircraft changes with 2 hour turns but there’s virtually always possibility for coffee and a decent meal in T5 that’s not crew food.

There’s a thread in the airline of course that SH is terrible and exhausting but it’s way better than the grind of long term low cost flying in my experience. LHR night jet ban is great!

Could all change at the bottom with JSS but I’m cautiously optimistic.

[Saab0409]

FWIW, non type rated in the pool for a long time, received and accepted the offer for A320 LHR. Happy to be in and settle in for the long road ahead. Most definitely a step up from my current regional gig!!

[student88]

When was that offer made Saab? Do you have a starting date?

[clvf88]

I've been following this thread for a while. Can anyone on 'the inside' confirm my inference that we're likely to see some non-Airbus rated recruitment for LH (+ possibly SH) in the near future?

[LlamaFarmer]

I think that might suggest so.

I'd have thought they'd recruit rated guys onto SH before non-rated though. So does this mean that there are very few A320-rated swimmers left?!

Would explain why they opened up the A320-rated recruitment page again.

[FoxChaRomeo]

There are definitely some 320 rated swimmers still in the pool... me, and I think FACOff and TimesReader both did their sims after me?

For reference I did mine mid Nov ‘16... anyone else?

[Retrojet]

Late sept/early oct TRd a320 have been called from what I know

[thetimesreader84]

Early Dec 2016. No call from BA yet.

[flap full landing cx]

Late October 2016, A320 rated.. no call.

[Shaka Zulu]

One 787 offer has been made. Offers will go out for 747/777. Rest 320 offers I presume

[tubby linton]

Virtually all of the Monarch people have jobs, though I am sure some will apply

[fightthepower]

Is the 500hr requirement valid at point of application or joining the company?

[FlipFlapFlop]

You are making a statement about your hours at the time of applying not at a date sometime in the future.

[nrn]

We are recruiting A320 guys and gals because we can't fly the schedule with the current pilots. We need them right now basically, so that is why we are opening for DEPs rated on the 320 so they can do a short course.

Came straight from the manpower manager

[tubby linton]

BA could have had the pick of over four hundred well trained annd highly experienced Airbus pilots if they had been quicker off the mark, but they failed to engage this talent , unlike Virgin who could see the quality of what was available.

[Enzo999]

There are so many things about that comment which are laughable! Virgin needed pilots because their 787s have no engines and the timing of Monarch’s demise was fortunate, nothing to do with the extreme talent on offer. Let’s hope Virgin remain so impressed when those 787s come back on line!

[tubby linton]

Enzo,you have missd the point. Virgin took 50 Monarch pilots because they were hugely experienced and could be online in a very short time, not just on the Airbus fleets. Whether the gig is going to be more than short term remains to be seen, but those that have gone there are hoping it is for the long term. Monarch people tend to be loyal and fully committed to their employer.

[wiggy]

BA could have had the pick of over four hundred well trained annd highly experienced Airbus pilots if they had been quicker off the mark,

But another point would be that IMHO that is an easy criticism to make with the benefit of hindsight.

At the time Monarch went to the wall the BA hold pool, which contained a number of 320 rated pilots, appeared to be almost stagnant and BA didn’t see the need to leave the blocks, let alone be quicker off the mark than the likes of Virgin....

[spottyemm]

IAG got exactly what they wanted from Monarch.... Slots at LGW and plenty of work for their mates in Qatar. If they wanted the crews they could have made a bid for the LGW bit of Monarch. Lets face it Easy could have had Monarch crews in MAN as well but it seems they also would rather use Qatar. Isn't the free global market wonderful :(

Monarch is gone...lets move on.

Good luck and well done to all those getting picked up by BA, I'm sure you'll have a great time.

Now I must remember to change my profile name :)

[tubby linton]

But another point would be that IMHO that is an easy criticism to make with the benefit of hindsight.

At the time Monarch went to the wall the BA hold pool, which contained a number of 320 rated pilots, appeared to be almost stagnant and BA didn’t see the need to leave the blocks, let alone be quicker off the mark than the likes of iVirgin....
IAG had been in direct negotiation to take the Gatwick operation before Monarch failed. Any sensible business would alao have had an alternative strategy to make the most of the opportunities presented by the failure and they were certainly quick enough to preposition Qatar personnel into the UK a week before the airline failed.Based on your supposition Wiggy you are saying that your management has no forward vision

[Enzo999]

They obviously did not want the Gatwick operation, just the slots and they got exactly what they wanted. It is well documented BA can’t plan for toffee but I am sure they will have no problem filling their 320 positions.

[wiggy]

.Based on your supposition Wiggy you are saying that your management has no forward vision

Err, No you are saying that, I would appreciate it didn’t start putting words in my mouth.

Fair enough?

As Enzo has said they will fill the LGW positions.

[tubby linton]

The whole thing is irrelevant to me,but I would like to have seen the experience of some of my colleagues appreciated, and the agony of months unemployed could have been curtailed.

[tmtxpress]

Can we still expect a relatively fast upgrade to command on the SH fleet? Thanks.

[VJW]

Sorry the world doesn’t work like that. Ex Monarch pilots are no more loyal, skilled or experienced than the guys/girls already in the BA holding pool.

In fact those in the pool clearly wanted to join BA having gone through the process already, not simply because their own airline failed recently. How many of the people you refer applied to BA two years ago when the rest of us did?

The pool at BA probably has between 100-200 people swimming in it, some of which for 2 years all trying to better their careers with improved T&C’s and worklife etc. Why you imply there should be a god given right to jump from one of the best employers to the next and to do it sneakily via a back door, I don’t understand. I’m sure the monarch pilots could have applied the last time BA’s recruitment was open- and while you wish they had recognised your colleagues experience immediately after Monarch went under, at least they can all apply now and leapfrog the unrated souls in their pool.

A word of advice for the BA interview to your friends- think carefully about how you’ll answer BA’s first question to you, ‘So why do you want to join BA?’

[Cattivo]

tmtxpress Can we still expect a relatively fast upgrade to command on the SH fleet? Thanks.

Impossible to say, as you may have gathered from this thread, you can’t second guess movement/recruitment in BA. After going very junior for 1-2 years, the SH command time has gone back this year to being 7years+ but I really wouldn’t base your decision on joining on current command times. It can change in the blink of an eye and this year was (maybe) skewed by the pension shenanigans ongoing in BA currently. If I was to take an educated guess I’d say commands will come back down to 3-4 years but that’s just a guess.

Standard advice, just get in and see what opportunities come your way.

Good luck

[bex88]

Commands were at around seniority 2200-300 ish. The rest of the commands down in the 3000’s are BMI protected ones. What do we have 4300 pilots now? I think junior commands were an exception and would expect with NAPS closing etc they may remain higher than we expect. Junior commands are not well rewarded financially and are really crap lifestyle wise. Each to their own but I would not join based on an assumption of quick command.

[FACoff]

I know this will have been covered before but would anyone mind confirming these numbers for a BA year 1 FO are still correct?

Salary - 56,529/yr
Flight pay - 9.94/hr
Duty pay - 3.52/hr

Based on 800 hours (approx £8k) and 1500 duty hours (approx £5300), I'm assuming total salary is about £70k gross, just under £4k/month after 6% pension contributions. Is this roughly accurate?

[4468]

I think junior commands were an exception and would expect with NAPS closing etc they may remain higher than we expect. Junior commands are not well rewarded financially and are really crap lifestyle wise. Each to their own but I would not join based on an assumption of quick command.

Mmmm.

Not at all sure I agree? Number one. The effect of NAPS closure is debatable? Many of our LH senior copilots, simply can’t stomach the idea of a SH command. They’d prefer a smaller pension, or at the very least, pushing it to the last possible opportunity. After which many of them will undoubtedly miss out.

As far as SH commands providing a ‘crap’ lifestyle.. Two things. First, it just depends what you’re comparing it to? If it’s a ‘senior’ LH copilot’s life, then I accept, it’s sub optimal! Compare it to Easy, Jet2, Ryan...... Really?? I doubt it!

So, frankly, I personally imagine, there’s a fair chance that SH commands will remain fairly junior. Especially at LGW. Many people in BA simply hold their nose at the idea of ‘dirty’ SH!

That’s the truth. Life is (currently!) just TOO comfy on LH!

It will change.

[Flyer2007]

I notice on the holdpool update email it mentioned, “Longhaul offers for the moment are being made to those with a current Boeing rating”. Does this mean Boeing only until the number of Boeing rated Pilots in the pool runs out? Or are they going to change to include those who are not Boeing rated too? Any idea on how many LH offers are likely to be made? I appreciate most offers will be for the A320.

[ChrisE]

Will/do BA open recruitment for Boeing rated guys? Over the last few years I've only seen A320 ads!

[VJW]

4468 - Have you been a Captain at Easy/Jet2/Ryan and BA? Seeing as though it has been mentioned on here that it takes about 13 years inside BA to get the SH command salary close to that of the three LoCo’s you mention, please tell me what the lifestyle is like at BA as a junior Captain that makes it worth it. Bearing in mind two of those LoCo’s have a package worth in excess of £120k a year before bonuses with a fixed roster pattern and home each night - ideal for a having a life outside of work.

[GS-Alpha]

Many of our LH senior copilots, simply can’t stomach the idea of a SH command. They’d prefer a smaller pension, or at the very least, pushing it to the last possible opportunity.
I’m not sure ‘can’t stomach’ is the right phrase. We have simply for whatever reason, favoured the long haul lifestyle just like many have before us. It doesn’t have much to do with being senior, other than that you generally need a bit of seniority to get a move to long haul if you’re not fortunate enough to be recruited directly onto a long haul fleet. Suggesting long haul is too comfy is just incorrect. Some long haul fleets have it easier than others it is true, but to make the blanket statement that long haul is comfy in BA is wrong. Most on my fleet believe part time is the only way they’ll be able to stave off fatigue in the long term.

The top of the seniority long haul SFOs will unlikely now start bidding for short haul commands, because that would freeze them off a long haul command for five years and that’s where they really want to be. The more junior NAPS SFOs will probably just bid for short haul commands immediately (if they value their pensions over their current lifestyles - although I suspect many won’t, because they don’t totally believe they’ll ever receive the pension). It is the middle ground who will probably wait a year or so before starting to bid for short haul commands, just to see how things are looking and whether they might just squeak a long haul command in time. They are the one ones who are taking a little bit of a gamble and may end up losing out if there is a bit of a downturn in command availability.

However overall, I think all of the above means there will probably be very limited availability of new LHR commands to any BARP seniority pilots for the next five years (after 2018). There will also be several (although not all) pp16 capped LGW Captains bidding for LHR too. I suspect the only short haul command availability to BARP seniority pilots will be at LGW.

[Northern Monkey]

There are definitely some downsides of taking a shortfall command early on (even if it is available to you). I'm talking about those who achieve their command within the first 2/3 years in BA, which is historically unlikely anyway.

1. Zero or close to zero roster control (indefinitely)
2. Frequent reserve periods
3. One of the lowest command salaries in the UK for an A320 command.
4. Potentially years of stagnation as senior pilots transfer across ahead of you

If an A320 command is your thing and you're not interested in long haul it makes zero sense to leave somewhere like easyJet IMO.

If you join as an FO anytime soon you have a decent chance of achieving some lifestyle control pretty quickly based on the latest estimates for recruitment. What you then do is up to you.

As was said to me when I joined, you only HAVE to be junior once.

[Enzo999]

4468 - Have you been a Captain at Easy/Jet2/Ryan and BA? Seeing as though it has been mentioned on here that it takes about 13 years inside BA to get the SH command salary close to that of the three LoCo’s you mention, please tell me what the lifestyle is like at BA as a junior Captain that makes it worth it. Bearing in mind two of those LoCo’s have a package worth in excess of £120k a year before bonuses with a fixed roster pattern and home each night - ideal for a having a life outside of work.

Unless you have a burning desire to fly long haul then there is absolutely no reason to join BA at all. Unless you like never ending conversations about pensions and JSS. Oh and of course the company has really “strong” union recognition hahaha!! Trust me if your close to LoCo command stick with it, most normal people go to work to earn money and BA is simply not the place to do that anymore all the rest is smoke and mirrors designed to convince us how lucky we are to work at T5s favourite airline.

[rustynut]

I completely disagree with that! I felt like I was a financial inconvenience to the management at my previous LoCo. I had to flight for everything while there, I couldn’t face another couple of years working there, let alone another 35! Albeit I got a Longhaul position here, I would have taken SH, the majority of my friends did and are very happy. My work life is no longer stressful and therefore my home life has become stress free. I think the majority of this has to do with the attitude and culture at BA, where pilots are still treated like professionals, left to get on with the job!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Its been done to death, on this thread and others. there are pros and cons a plenty.

From my perspective, if you are in your 20s/early 30s and single(ish) then BA is still as good a gig as any. The main reason being you can bid to move around between SH and LH every 5 years. I find that kind of career choice liberating and it helps stoke up enthusiasm for the job.

Realistically, most join and do around 5 years A320 and then move to a LH fleet, then take stock after 5-10 years about a SH command. Many stay LH as the lifestyle is to their liking. Very few actually do a new Type Rating every 5 years/jump around between SH/LH but it is possible if you really love Groundschool.

Joining straight onto LH is a nice move for already experienced guys but you will sit at the bottom of a very long list with hardly any appreciable movement for quite some time.

If you want big money early then forget it. My mates at Locos are all far better off than I am. That said you can be at £100k p.a within 7-8 years as a LH F/O - with overtime and bonus.

Glad to hear the patient swimmers are being rewarded. A350 joins the fold in 2019 for anyone who fancies it.

[Retrojet]

Any more offers made to those who had their sims mid to late oct 2016?

[Mizar]

Retrojet, rated or non rated? My sim partner was called few days ago for SH position and we did our check early october 16.

[Retrojet]

Either! Glad to hear about more offers going out...I know of some late SEPT/mid OCT a320 rated people getting SH offers....

just wondering if any mid to late OCT people had received offers yet...???

[blimey]

The main reason being you can bid to move around between SH and LH every 5 years.

......at the moment.

And 25% joined in the last 5 years so it's a big bulge.

Jewel in the crown was bidline :{

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Aiminghigh, yeah makes sense. I've got kids and a big mortgage too, and I wouldn't leave a loco command at the age I am now unless I absolutely had to fly LH. That said some people do just that and they make it work so your guess is as good as mine - its all extremely subjective!

Blimey

......at the moment.

SHHHHHH! (I heard a year ago that AC and SG had a list of big ticket items they were pointing both barrels at, number 1 was pensions, guess what number 2 was.

[RexBanner]

And I’ve heard from others ITK that it’s not even remotely on the radar so depends which rumour you want to believe really. You can drive yourself mad if you worried about everything you heard on the rumour mill.

Not exactly a Nostradamus prediction to say they were looking to address the pension situation, especially as Steve Gunning had said it himself directly in his introductory video almost two years ago!

[Retrojet]

Just read on Airliners.net (Airbus Is in Talks With British Airways on More A380s - Page 7 - Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1384197&sid=05041ee771f9d0debf7abe3e6eebf4de&start=300))

Someone said someone posted on yammer that a new A380 order is imminent, but since posting the post has been removed from yammer.....

Anyone on the inside have any more info?

[student88]

Well the most recent flight ops news said the A380 fleet is planning to remain at 12 aircraft for the foreseeable future..

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

BA has delayed retirement of some of their 747s and expanded their fleet so that now they are 11 aircraft short for completing the replacement. If they want to further expand their fleet then that number would rise further.

Be nice to finally see a launch customer for the B777-10X stretch and the pilots to go with it.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Not exactly a Nostradamus prediction to say they were looking to address the pension situation

Not exactly wrong either was it.

[Retrojet]

Any news this week?

[thetimesreader84]

My understanding from the conference call was that rather than let you know in advance, (“Hey TTR, we’re putting you on a course in October, that ok?”) they are waiting until 90 days before your expected start date to contact you.

In that instance, it may be a flurry of activity followed by periods of radio silence.

[Boeing 77W]

A few DEP long haul offers went out last week. I believe a mixture of rated and non rated.

[Jwscud]

TTR, I suspect that is simply because nobody in BA has a clue what the course/manning status is like in October. People in the company only get notified 6 weeks ahead of a course (with all planned leave &c being wiped off your roster) so you are actually getting twice the notice we are!

[thetimesreader84]

Jwscud, I completely understand the reasoning behind why they aren’t giving more than the bare minimum notice for start dates. Doesn’t make it any easier when you’re at the bottom of the (TR) hold pool acutely aware of how quickly things can change. One morning you’re flying to Tenerife, prepping for a command interview, 24 hours later you’re unemployed...

Just putting my spin on why it’s a bit “peaks & troughs” with people getting called for start dates.

[Retrojet]

From what I have heard, some A320 offers might have gone out today... fingers crossed!

[WonderBus]

They have yes, 320 for LHR

[thetimesreader84]

Good news.

Do we know when the lucky ones came into the hold pool? I.e. how far through the hold pool are BA? I heard during the last intake a few weeks ago they were up to about mid October hold pool entry dates.

[Mizar]

Timesreader, true but these were only 320 rated afaik

[sudden twang]

if anyone is in the pool with experience as a DFO you maybe in luck.

[G SXTY]

Ooh, you are naughty. :ok:

[captain.weird]

For rated 320 positions?

[CXKA]

Be interesting to know when they entered pool as doubt are 320 rated, my sim partner still waiting to get the call.

[Flyer2007]

I know of a couple of people being offered 777 and 747 in the last few days. They have a current Boeing rating.

[Retrojet]

From people I know.....late Oct to Nov holdpoolers and a320 type rated

[Mizar]

Those who got long haul offers is it possible to know when they had their sims?

[dhps]

I got a call for a long haul position early February.

My sim was back in April 2016, I am a 737 FO, approx 5000 hrs.

[midnight cruiser]

Quite a volte face from when they used to turf people out of the pool after only 12 months

[Fadecwithnos]

For the A320, does anyone know if its a short notice necessity?
Or we will be requested to be in the hold pool for several months?

[Flyer2007]

May and June for the LH offers I believe. So getting through the Boeing hold poolers fairly quickly, unless there’s a bulge of them further on in the pool.

[Retrojet]

A320 offers are going out with just about the 3months notice

[Mizar]

May and june sim checks getting called now, is it confirmed?

[Boeing 77W]

The last few weeks appear to have been a mixed bag. I know of 777/787/747 rated guys doing their sim checks between May and September 2016, now starting in May. Other non rated who did sim checks in April also starting in May.

[Flyer2007]

May and june sim checks getting called now, is it confirmed?

The guys I know were May and June for sim checks. Whilst not type rated, they’re both current on a Boeing aircraft, which from the update email seems to be the case for LH positions at the moment.

Not sure where they are with “pure” non rated such as Dash /EJet etc.

[wiggy]

Hot off the press for those getting the calls..

...BA makes a whopping £1.7 billion profits for the year, BA staff bonus is 1.4% of basic pay..Director of Flight Ops going, going, gone, ..nobody is owning up to why but there are v v strong rumours that of all synthetic training about to be outsourced ( anyone planning on joining and applying to be a trainer take note).......new rostering system (JSS) delayed 'cos only Bidline can cope with this summer's required level of work..increased restrictions on the ability of flying staff on duty having their teenage dependents accompany them as passengers when Mum or Dad is on a working trip..etc etc etc

Welcome aboard folks, you are joining at an in interesting time ..but do please bring your sense of humour and a thick skin, you'll need both....

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Hey Wiggy you forgot to mention the new uniform!

Apparently we get to design it ourselves....

[Threethirty]

Where did you read that? Can't see anything about a new uniform

[oleostrutbasher]

I know this has been done before, but with the continuing negative changes I am genuinely wondering if there is any point in continuing through the current selection process with BA, or whether to just stick with ezy where I am pretty happy. The trajectory BA seems to be on is a little worrying especially when moving there is playing the long game. Thoughts?

[Enzo999]

Hot off the press for those getting the calls..

...BA makes a whopping £1.7 billion profits for the year, BA staff bonus is 1.4% of basic pay..Director of Flight Ops going, going, gone, ..nobody is owning up to why but there are v v strong rumours that of all synthetic training about to be outsourced ( anyone planning on joining and applying to be a trainer take note).......new rostering system (JSS) delayed 'cos only Bidline can cope with this summer's required level of work..increased restrictions on the ability of flying staff on duty having their teenage dependents accompany them as passengers when Mum or Dad is on a working trip..etc etc etc

Welcome aboard folks, you are joining at an in interesting time ..but do please bring your sense of humour and a thick skin, you'll need both....

Is that what the bonus is 1.4%? I would rather have last years £300 and an extra ticket. Just starting my 5th reserve month in 18, somehow I feel so much better about it knowing I have £800 coming my way, not!!!!!

[wiggy]

Where did you read that? Can't see anything about a new uniform

Not sure you'll find reference to that in today's intrablah announcement but there's been talk of a new uniform for a while..I haven't heard BMRR's verson of this is going to be done. The version I heard was it was going to be "make it yourself", with BA sending the design out to individuals via e-mail and then the individual building their fetching ensemble at home.

I know many of those not yet cognisant in the current BA way will perhaps find it hard to understand why many inmates probably think either of the above is actually a possibility.

They will achieve great understanding and become wise beyond their years the first time they do battle with mission critical stuff like the company iPad and software. They might just perhaps find..maybe...it doesn't work as advertised (I know with BA being gold standard and all that they'll find even that hard to believe), ask for advice from a manager or an "executive" and get told "but you just follow the instructions" or " there's an ESS form for that online".....or the all time favourite "it's self help, self teach, you shouldn't need my assistance, all you need to know is on My Learning Academy...".:yuk:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It’s hidden in the email blurb, 2019, centenary year, new uniform. Designed by crew.

Personally I’m going to donate my “bonus” to the uniform design fund. I wonder if the A380 folks will ask for a gold pair of trousers?

[wiggy]

Naah, more likely some on that fleet are lobbying for a uniform hat with built in GoPro.....

(Sorry, not helpful for the prospective DEPs so I’ll knock it off now) .

[bex88]

I know this has been done before, but with the continuing negative changes I am genuinely wondering if there is any point in continuing through the current selection process with BA, or whether to just stick with ezy where I am pretty happy. The trajectory BA seems to be on is a little worrying especially when moving there is playing the long game. Thoughts?


Nope!.......long long list of pilots above in a seniority based company and not even LOCO pay.

[Magnus456]

Hi guys,

Any idea what aptitude tests BA are currently using for day 1? I know a couple of years ago there were two tests:

- The Flight director test, with numbers counting down and coloured shapes etc.
- The test with a NAV display, TCAS, electrical display and fuel pumps etc.

But a mate of mine who got in around a year ago didn't have to do the flight director test. Is this still the case?

Thanks a lot

[FACoff]

Nope!.......long long list of pilots above in a seniority based company and not even LOCO pay.

Just out of interest, were you one of the few who took an early command?

[FoxChaRomeo]

I know this has been done before, but with the continuing negative changes I am genuinely wondering if there is any point in continuing through the current selection process with BA, or whether to just stick with ezy where I am pretty happy. The trajectory BA seems to be on is a little worrying especially when moving there is playing the long game. Thoughts?

The answer is different for everyone because everyone‘s situation is different. If you’re applying, hopefully you will have read much of this thread and will be well aware of the pros & cons.

There are some strong voices on here, both for and against the company. Ignore them all, and make the decision based on your situation alone, not theirs.

And remember, the key to happiness is not just the dollars in the bank at the end of the month!

Good luck with your application.

[JOSHUA]

Generally agree, however, BA has changed soooo much in the 10+ yrs that I’ve been there, unfortunately not for the better good of the employee. If you feel it has more to offer than Easy, than join but do so with open eyes, take heed of all the advice on here and make a decision that suits your circumstances.

[blimey]

The bottom line is:

Is long haul your sole destiny and are you happy to be RHS for a very long time.

The rest is much of a muchness. BA is not the same compared to 5/10/20 years ago. Goodness knows what it will look like in the near future.

[Jumbo2]

Naah, more likely some on that fleet are lobbying for a uniform hat with built in GoPro.


With an altimeter in it so it only works above FL200 :O

[bluepilot]

why on earth as an experienced pilot you would want to join the bottom of a very long list with race to the bottom TandC I do not know. BA used to be the aspiration for many, it is now just another airline competing in the marketplace for what is becoming a scarce commodity, if you are young with many years ahead of you maybe, to others there are far better deals out there.

[blimey]

bluepilot

As you know, it's whether LH is the be all and end all.

Otherwise, the grass isn't always greener.

Good luck to those that are 'blessed'; whilst their contemporaries may be fat, dumb, wealthier and happier.

[thetimesreader84]

why on earth as an experienced pilot you would want to join the bottom of a very long list with race to the bottom TandC I do not know.

Because that race to the bottom is going on everywhere, and maybe BA will level off at a point above the LoCos?

It’s not for everyone, I agree. If I was high houred FO or Captain at a regional base with a LoCo (particularly if that base was far from London) with no particular desire to go long haul, I’d probably stay where I am. But if Long Haul is the aspiration, or you buy into the prestige (yes, it’s easy to sniff at it, but it is our nations flag carrier, and that does count for something) then it’s a harder decision.

And it’s not like it’s a prison camp - I’m sure you can put in your notice and leave if it’s not for you, same as any other job.

[Northern Monkey]

Have to agree with the sentiments above. Clearly there are a few BA pilots who think only BA pilots are in the firing line.

The truth is the race to the bottom is well and truly on, everywhere. It’s not a BA problem specifically, it’s an industry problem. The latest rumours about design your own uniform or training being outsourced are just this weeks examples. And at the moment it’s all just rumours.

There will be new rumours every week between now and when you retire - none of which are likely to be morale inspiring in their content. Its been like that in all 3 companies I’ve worked for. Even in times of record profitability the next swing of the axe is (rumoured at least) to be just around the corner. If you can’t handle that I’m afraid you’re in the wrong industry. Our terms and conditions will always be under attack.

What I can say with certainty is that the grass isn’t always greener. We have our problems and other companies have their problems.

[thetimesreader84]

You'll earn significantly more at Easy as a Captain for 20 years as oppose to a BA FO.

And as an FO? The BA offer for short haul was a chunk more than Monarch (not exactly known for crap wages) paid me.

As I originally said, if you’re a captain or Senior FO at a regional base, then BA may not be for you. For everyone else, I’d say it’s an option to consider.

[VJW]

TTR - I'm genuinely intrigued....what is the 'prestige' actually worth to you.

[thetimesreader84]

For me, the difference between taking a commuting job and BA.

[Doppio]

Just for information; I've recently left BA to take a command at Ryanair. Spent several years as a Longhaul DEP but it's going nowhere; BA went from a Legacy carrier to a Longhaul LoCo in the space of several years... And I figured if I'm going to work for a LoCo I might as well work for one that pays more than BA.
It's sad but there you have it.
All of the former reasons for joining are no longer there; bidline, pension, 24 point payscale, early shorthaul command, early retirement and working less than 850hrs per year... And Alex Cruz isn't done yet; not by a long shot. All that's left now is prestige, I tried paying for my groceries the other day with that, but they wouldn't take it.
Obviously make your own decison, but I've made mine; I'm out.

[skyflyer737]

To echo Doppio above, I too rejoined Ryanair as a Capt last year having done a stint as a longhaul DEP at BA.

It’s not just about the money at all but I’m earning 60% more in net salary now I’m back at Ryanair, with only a v.small difference in company pension contributions. Time to command longhaul would have been 17 to 20 years. Bidline didn’t work for me as a pilot at the bottom of the seniority list and I hated night flying. I have more days at home per month now than I did at BA and my quality of life and bank balance is much healthier.

Many of those I joined BA with think along similar lines and I know of a couple of who have gone back to their previous employers.

Having said that, for some joining BA (longhaul) has been like winning the lottery. It’s still a good job but it all depends what your other options in life / career are. Be careful giving up an easy, well paid life elsewhere to have the ‘prestige’ of a British flag on the tail of your aircraft.

[tommytailwind]

I also left BA as a DEP to return to my former loco outfit. Should never have left in the first place. It taught me a valuable lesson not to give up a command chasing the apparent prestige of flying for one’s flag carrier.

Not that it’s a bad job at all. For some it’s fantastic I imagine, but most on my intake are hugely questioning whether to stay or go back.

Good luck to those in the pool though if that’s what you really want.

[VJW]

TTR you gave an answer but I don’t understand it. BA’s ‘prestige’ you refer isn’t you simplying saying that they offer you a job near where you live is it?

For me to join BA I’d have to drive further to work than I do now- would you call a decision for me to go to BA from RYR less prestigious because of that?

Plenty to of people (the majority I’d say) work at LoCo’s live close to their home base. Additionally there are people in BA who commute in from abroad- I’m not sure location of your base in relation to your house is what makes the airline itself prestigious or not...

[wiggy]

But if Long Haul is the aspiration, or you buy into the prestige (yes, it’s easy to sniff at it, but it is our nations flag carrier, and that does count for something) then it’s a harder decision.

Reads above, takes deep breath...removes pin...

Is there a general assumption by those here in the know that aspirational bidding for fleet/seat movement will still be existence at BA in anything like it's current form in, say, 5-6 years time...

Retires to safe distance.

[bex88]

Facoff Just out of interest, were you one of the few who took an early command?

I did not know early or late commands existed. In answer to your question I was granted my bid when my seniority allowed the opportunity to undertake a command course. I am junior on the status but not in time served. The simple truth is BA pays less and rostering is pretty poor at the bottom. There are some benefits of course and if I did not value them I would consider a different fleet and status or a different airline. Would I join from a command position or close to it from RYR or EZY? I would struggle to recommend it, but I would happily say BA is a good employer.

[Jwscud]

For those long haul DEPs who left to return to previous employers, what fleets were you on? I believe junior life on the Jumbo is pretty rubbish and has left a few friends of mine a bit disillusioned. Similarly, DEP Airbus.

Conversely, the 777 and to an extent the 787 offer a pretty good lifestyle wherever you are on the status list.

[vrb03kt]

Wiggy, are you suggesting that aspirational bidding to a different fleet might become a thing of the past and you might end up being ‘stuck’on whatever fleet you join on?

[wiggy]

The following really is just my opinion but:

1.I don't see any reason for the cost cutting to stop,

2. The amount of low hanging fruit on the Flight Ops tree is reducing and the whole Aspirational Bid/PRIAM process in it's current form is still hanging there..

..and

3.BALPA is very fond of hinting the next big issue is the line in the sand...

With all that in mind I certainly think in the near future it is almost inevitable that the company are going to try to reduce aspirational options and conversion frequencies - the Aspirational Bidding agreement will come under the sort of pressure that Bidline suffered...

Worse still if ( big "if" I know ) the current rumour turn out to be true and training gets outsourced to an external company then there really will be pressure to minimise conversions.

As it stands at the moment I don't think people will inevitably get stuck on the fleet they join on but I can see the company really pushing hard in the near future to reduce/restrict seat and fleet changes across a career.

[Pork chop express]

I was DEP 747...lasted just over 2 years and called it a day! Tough decision and BA was a good employer but for those chasing LH go in with your eyes open and prepare to feel like you have mild permanent Flu the tiredness is a constant battle!!
From my short time at BA Cruz will cut costs where he can ...he must surely be asking what value is there to BA for a pilot on one LH aircraft bidding to go and fly another one just because they fancy something different!?

Good luck to all in the pool for many I’m sure it’ll be a good move just have your eyes open. If I was command with a Loco or close to it I’d not even consider BA unless you have to do LH to tick that box.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Is there a general assumption by those here in the know that aspirational bidding for fleet/seat movement will still be existence at BA in anything like it's current form in, say, 5-6 years time...

I’m no more in the know than you Wiggy but it’s no secret it is on Cruz and Gunnings wish list as it is a cost they can hack away at. I can see aspirational moves being limited to something similar to the Lufthansa set up (SH f/o - LH f/o, SH Cpt - LH Cpt) Which would be a massive shame as it is one of the few great remaining features of BA.

[JW411]

I am just totally fascinated by the fact that some BA pilots fly "for the prestige".

What "prestige"?

Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.

He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".

[EllanVannin]

To add a little balance to the negativity that seems to be in abundance on pprune.....

Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -

1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)

2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.

3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.

4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.

5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....

6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.

7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.

8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.

9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?

10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.

11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.


I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.

Good luck to all who are considering their options.

[sudden twang]

The first FPPs are moving LH or getting commands A320

[Enzo999]

To add a little balance to the negativity that seems to be in abundance on pprune.....

Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -

1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)

2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.

3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.

4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.

5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....

6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.

7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.

8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.

9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?

10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.

11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.


I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.

Good luck to all who are considering their options.

I enjoy a good bit of BA bashing as much as the next person but I largely agree with the above. There are plenty of positives about working for BA, if you don’t like it or think finacially it’s not good enough then don’t join, simple. And to put things in to context the only reason the debate exists between LoCo and BA salaries is because of the ridiculously short command time at most LoCos, remove that factor and BAs pay is better, let’s face it if your young enough you will retire at BA on close to 200k as a long haul Captain (maybe only for 1 year, but still), it’s hardly insulting money!

I agree the lure of a quick command and instant pay day is very tempting (especially to those of us with a few miles on the clock, so to speak) but for others BA is a perfectly decent option and the endless negativity is slightly boring.

[polepilot]

If iphones where crap they wouldnt sell so many, my point is when recruitment opens applications come pouring in......

Also people are very quick to quote salaries at Loco airlines but the facts are that many skippers look towards part time to make it managable long term

[reeko]

Speaking of recruitment... any insider info on if they’ll open again for NTR?

[Tay Cough]

2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.

How do you know? It's still being "built".

There are some issues with it and it has been delayed until at least September because no-one wants to take the risk of implementing it during the summer when the schedule as it is looks a bit optimistic.

It may be that it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread but until everyone is bidding with it simultaneously, any suggestion that it is "better than any other system" is conjecture.

[rustynut]

The negativity towards BA astounds me on this forum. If guys who have been in for 10+ years thinks the T’s+C’s at BA are as bad as you make out on here, what do you think the LoCo’s are doing....Its certainly a race to the bottom but what we have is bloody good in comparison!

Complaining about the new bidding, yes I would prefer to keep Bidline, but did I have any say over my roster at previous? NO, and did my roster stay as what was allocated, NO, it changed every single day I checked out from previous day! I know shorthaul is not everyone’s dream fleet but in 5 years average, +\- you can bid off and spend your months playing golf in South Africa, drinking Beer/eating chicken wings on West coast, and generally seeing the world on a monthly basis! This is not to mention being treated like a professional pilot, left to make decisions in the right seat which is far from the Loco I came from!

How about this feed is used to help the guys that ACTUALLY want to join BA and therefore help them to do so, rather than moan about first world problems that quite frankly are absent at most of UK Loco/airlines today!

And if we’re going to mention money, as an SFO at previous Loco(6 years), I make a lot more at BA. Albeit some overtime, again not an option at most Loco, you roster just gets changed to cover the work!

If your not convicted by joining BA, leave the guys/girls that are, the jobs that they actually want!

Lastly, the majority of my friends that work at my previous, hate every single day the alarm goes off to go to work! The company treats them badly, they work extremely hard and they get nothing more that what’s written in the basic contact they sign. The FO’s I know are probably on a combination of around 6 different contracts.

The proof is in the pudding as you can count the pilots that leave BA on one hand, that in itself says an awful lot, when Loco’s are loosing hundreds when the market starts moving!

If your keen to apply, I recommend you do so, I never looked back...

[Buter]

Just joined, Ellan?

[Buter]

Rusty - just because this outfit is better than your last, don’t preach to us about how good we have it.

We’ve had our t’s and c’s destroyed over the last few years so you can politely **** off. If you think that losing bidline is no big deal then you really need to examine why you joined BA.

I kinda hope your post is just a wind up. Sadly, you probably believe what you’ve written.

[wiggy]

TBH I suspect Buter has a point, and I’m sure that if someone had joined from certain airlines where for example rosters instability was rife then for a time BA can appear brilliant, but at some point you have to look over the rose tinted glasses:

Saying we still have a document labelled Bidline is technically true but the “device” is a shadow of it’s former self.....it really is.
JSS....the new rostering system .. well aside from a select few has nobody has seen it function yet.
Hotels...ATM generally good, sure, but there is definitely an increasing downwards tendency in terms of location and quality as IAG screw down on the group hotel budget...
Staff travel.....I’m not sure many with families would describe it in Whickeresque terms...talking to some new joiners I gather the BA version is relatively quite limited but using it can certainly lead to some adventures.

Now most of the above, or similar would probably be standard gripes at any airline but until the last few years it was almost unheard of for people to join BA, give it a try and then return to their former outfit, or simply be mid career BA and decide to jump ship....The fact that that is now happening, even in small number, is a powerful indicator of how the airline has evolved.

If you are joining then like joining any airline make the most of what you have on day one.....I’m sure for many it is a great place to be now...

[Buter]

Cheers, CC.

Far more eloquent than myself, as always.