BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[followthegreens]

The other problem with Work To Rule at BA is... what's the rule? The psychedelic maze that is Bid Line Rules (BLR) is very hard to navigate without taking a wrong turn. Individuals would be exposing themselves to dismissal far too easily.

[Phantom4]

Rumour that 767 has been sold and BA may revert to 744 sim.Just for info for those awaiting assessment.

[wiggy]

Has it been confirmed that new recruits have to pay £18k for A320?



AFAIK the only “new recruits” paying 18k are those joining on the newly announced “newly qualified” pilot scheme (e.g. straight out of the likes of L3), not the DEP route....

[RexBanner]

Give Klaus time...

[rossbaku]

For what it's worth, when I joined my first commercial outfit (and this wasn't that many moons ago!), we were bonded for £15k, payable up front before commencing the type rating, albeit paid back in 36 monthly instalments...

The starting salary at that outfit plus the bond I paid was still significantly less (I'm talking greater than £10k) than the starting salary these new pilots would earn in their first year at BA.

Just my "two cents", but I don't see the problem with the £18k up front given the starting salary. A very controversial viewpoint I'm sure but sadly its the nature of the industry. I can't think of many another professions out there that requires you to pay up front to get the job.

[The Mixmaster]

Worth pointing out the starting salary for those paying for TR is significantly less (about £20k less) than experienced DEP starting salary. There’s simply no justification for this. IAG get a reduced flight ops budget and pilots take it up the tailpipe while shareholders laugh all the way to the bank.

[Reversethrustset]

It's quite simple, a message to all those wannabes, don't pay it, it'll soon disappear. The only reason these schemes exist is because people are prepared to pay it.

[The Mixmaster]

Reversethrust - the same argument was made years ago by current Ryanair pilots to new hires paying 30k for their TR. How did that work out?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Do they pay £18k upfront and get the money back after a period of time, similar to NLH bond, or is this paying for a type rating?

Starting salary of £20k?!

[Stocious]

Starting salary is mid 30s for SSP payscale which has been in existence for quite a few years now, long before I joined. Goes up pretty quickly though.

[GS-Alpha]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. BA works purely on market forces. They don’t care about employee morale or particularly much about what BALPA thinks either. In the last financial year for the company, they have closed the FSS pension and have announced an additional dividend to the shareholders which is pretty much identical to the sum of money saved by the closure. They have no problem at all with taking money from anyone who will let them, and giving it to their shareholders. Current pilots collectively allowed the company to raid their pensions and close bidline for JSS, and new joiners will allow the company to take £18k from them. When they’ve been doing that for a while, I expect internal pilots will have to pay for aspirational type courses. And so it will continue until individuals stop applying and start leaving in excessive numbers. Until that day, we’ll have more and more of our money redirected to the shareholders. They take as much as they can get away with from the customer, and they take as much as they can get away with from the employee. It is that simple.

[The Mixmaster]

Starting salary is mid 30s for SSP payscale which has been in existence for quite a few years now, long before I joined. Goes up pretty quickly though.

The difference of course is that SSP’s used to join with their TR paid for by BA so the reduced salary was arguably fair enough. Now the TR cost is paid upfront and the pilot does not catch up to DEP pay until year 5 on the PP34 scale.

GS-ALPHA. Spot on.

[Reversethrustset]

Reversethrust - the same argument was made years ago by current Ryanair pilots to new hires paying 30k for their TR. How did that work out?

It didn't work at all; why? Because they were prepared to pay it. The point is if people don't pay it the scheme won't exist. The obvious issue is people are always prepared to pay it so until they dry up the scheme will remain.

[Jason Derulo]

I will be doing the sim assessment fairly soon. Applied under one of the DEP FO ZFT campaigns last year, there has never been a mention of having to fund a TR. Is this only going to be applicable to the new CPL/IR campaign??

[Stocious]

Yes it is.

[red9]

14 leaving to KLM - another 6 awaiting sim assessment
8 this month to Easy
No shows at interviews
`Unable to fill slots......
People are beginning to smell the coffee........

[MikeAlpha320]

14 leaving to KLM - another 6 awaiting sim assessment
8 this month to Easy
No shows at interviews
`Unable to fill slots......
People are beginning to smell the coffee........

Finally...

[FRYVA]

Finally...

Me being one of them.

6k+ in various large aeroplanes, plus other vaguely exotic stuff and previously worked in similar cultures. Did stages 1-3 last time around before accepting something else. Applied recently again on a whim but the thought of going through the hassle of 3x trips to LHR at considerable expense to do the same rubbish I previously managed, alongside the clusterf*ck of equal opportunies BA HR, made me realise I just couldn’t. Not for a c.£55k basic and mediocre pension to (likely) sit RHS in a 320 out of LHR working every weekend until the kids have left school, sat next to a 26 year old #BAsmart. Frankly the thought was akin to being repeatedly stabbed in the knackers with a blunt pair of scissors. (N.b I do appreciate most at BA are decent guys and gals).

Shame, once upon a time I’d have sold my Gran to work for BA.

That grumble aside though, in my opinion it is the best designed recruitment process out there. If you get through it you obviously meet their standards and you really, really want to work for BA. I’m evidently not that person. The process seemingly works well... Fair enough!

[Justanothervoice]

Hi everyone. Managed to work my way through the last two years of this thread and got a lot of answers but if someone could help me out with just a couple of questions I would be very grateful. I have focused on LH questions as this is all I would be prepared to accept even if that meant not joining at all. Please don't view this as arrogant but as I am sort of happy where I am, it is a case of only taking what would work for me.

Pay:

Do the newer pay scales still make it a financially viable move to join BA in your mid 20s with the view to remain on a LH fleet?
What would a 10-15 year LH FO be expecting to make?

Commuter Specific:

Do people literally set up shop in London for 21 days of reserve?
Any hope of getting home between trips while on reserve if on LH?
Given the apparent crack down, are commuters still finding they can commute and still maintain a sustainable lifestyle?
Is there a minimum number of days off between trips?
In terms of practicality, can staff travel be used for commuting?

New rostering system:

Is it still possible to swap duties to get some sort of favourable roster?
As a commuter would you stand any chance of binning your standbys for a flying duty to save a possible wasted trip?


General Lifestyle on LH fleet:

Any junior guys who are happy? Commuters in particular?
Are trips a sense length?
Do BA have a sensible approach to 3 and 4 person crews on long sectors to at least mitigate some fatigue?
Is the cockpit gradient reflective of the relatively high experience levels of FO's whether that be those just joining the company or those who have been in the company 15-20 years? Will be given a decent amount of responsibility for your sector and do people find that enough to make up for a long time to command?

Moral: (A difficult one, I know)

Is the general level of moral as low as it seems on here? Do BALPA run a survey or anything that would provide some numbers on how the workforce is feeling?

Benefits:

Is the staff travel still as good as it was? Could I plan a holiday months in advance and still get some benefit (Cheaper or premium cabin)?
Good package for Loss Of License and Income Protection?


If anyone could take a stab at answering any or all of these, it would be absolutely invaluable so thank you in advance.

[DDobinpilot]

I’ve always found the BA recruitment process a little bit strange tbh. Very set in their ways, I feel there is no scope for example saying “well he didn’t have the best interview, but he seems like a nice guy so lets see how he gets on in the sim”.

I remember running into a guy who was once in the holding pool for them, ended up drowning. Applied again and didn’t get through the interview, seems to make little sense to me.

That said, my initial airline had an incredibly long winded recruitment process and I saw loads of good guys get canned during that process also. I think like most things, if comes down to how you feel on that particular day and a large degree of luck of the draw in relation to interviewers and sim checkers etc.

[hunterboy]

So do we think they will improve the T&C’s or just lower the standards? Answers on a postcard to Waterside......

[OBK!]

14 leaving to KLM - another 6 awaiting sim assessment
8 this month to Easy
No shows at interviews
`Unable to fill slots......
People are beginning to smell the coffee........

can I ask where you get this info from? I can only see a total of 7 people leaving this month of which 3 are retirees.

[nrn]

I personally know 4 whom have left BA to KLM. With me being nr 5 in June. I have the feeling there are more than that. Looking at iBid there are a fair few Dutch names leaving

[Stocious]

Good for them I say.

[rossbaku]

Speaking from my own personal experience, the T’s & C’s on offer at BA, along with the ‘fringe benefits’ far outweigh that of my previous employer.

So for some of us, the move is definitely a positive.

Just my two cents though.

[NLP]

Ibid does not show everyone who's leaving. It does not show RT on my roster and did not happen to my mate who left last November. I would say 20 guys/girls leaving for KLM is probably pretty close.

[RexBanner]

Struggling with the accuracy description of a “mediocre” pension too, tell me where you’re going to find better in the UK now given that pretty much all final salary schemes are now closed in all industries, not just ours? In that context, it’s actually pretty decent.

[FRYVA]

Struggling with the accuracy description of a “mediocre” pension too, tell me where you’re going to find better in the UK now given that pretty much all final salary schemes are now closed in all industries, not just ours? In that context, it’s actually pretty decent.

VS and pre 2015 TCX for a start, granted the later no longer available to new joiners.

I do take your point, “mediocre” is perhaps a little flippant but for somebody leaving either of the above, as but two examples, it’s a definite backward step and probably not industry leading if you already have your feet under the table elsewhere. But yes, I would agree fairly decent in this day and age in the context of UK airlines.

[RexBanner]

Virgin has exactly the same company contribution as the new BA scheme so its on par not better. Not only that but they (VS) want to remove this benefit to new joiners. Thomas Cook as you said not available any more either, so whatever you think of the BA pension, you’re not going to find anything better as a new joiner anywhere nowadays. I do take your other points though, BA isn’t for everyone, I’ve wrestled with the decision whether to leave myself over the last few months, I’m staying put and the only reason for that is Long Haul. Short Haul (whilst I’ve already said it’s not as bad as many make out on here) there are better options out there nowadays.

[A320baby]

Virgin hasn't removed anything for new joiners!

[Flap62]

Virgin hasn't removed anything for new joiners!


He didn’t say that they had.

[A320baby]

Ok I'll rephrase, Virgin hasn't and won't be changing anything regarding pension for new joiners!

[SpainHire]

Speaking from my own personal experience, the T’s & C’s on offer at BA, along with the ‘fringe benefits’ far outweigh that of my previous employer.

So for some of us, the move is definitely a positive.

Just my two cents though.

What sort of fringe benefits are there exactly?

[red9]

wearing a Hat ? .......

[airspeed75]

Sorry if this is not strictly on the topic but has anyone any idea how long the swim is in the BACF hold pool? Any chaps or chapesses on here in this pool? The recruitment process was the exact same as the DEP and done at waterside, just thought i'd ask here...

[wiggy]

Hi everyone. Managed to work my way through the last two years of this thread and got a lot of answers but if someone could help me out with just a couple of questions I would be very grateful.....


Commuter Specific:

Do people literally set up shop in London for 21 days of reserve?
Any hope of getting home between trips while on reserve if on LH?
Given the apparent crack down, are commuters still finding they can commute and still maintain a sustainable lifestyle?
Is there a minimum number of days off between trips?
In terms of practicality, can staff travel be used for commuting?
New rostering system:

Is it still possible to swap duties to get some sort of favourable roster?
As a commuter would you stand any chance of binning your standbys for a flying duty to save a possible wasted trip?


Scatter gun reply whilst you wait for a junior pilot to reply:

Firstly for those that are wondering about the specifics - Reserve period (Long Haul) is a 28 day block, first 7 days clear of work then 21 available days during which you can be assigned a duty, either flying or a "Home Standby" (HSB). You normally get notified of a trip or HSB the evening before the duty and when on HSB the requirement is to be able to get to the Crew car Park at LHR in two hours or less. You can be assigned HSB's on multiple consecutive days...FWIW first 6 days of the period HSB on the trot for me last time around, then, finally, some trips...

Whether you have to live at LHR for the reserve block depends on timings and frequency of commuting flights. The reason for the "depends" is that on Longhaul reserve the general rule is (with the exception of the day of return from a trip) you are "contactable" in an evening for duties the next day ( e.g. flights or a stand-by block)...So you can get a phone call as late as 2000 UK LT informing you of a trip/ standby period the next AM and because of that many Longhaul commuters I know of plan on living around LHR/LGW for the 21 days and grab days off at home as a bonus.

Getting home after a trip on reserve? You are free on the day of arrival back into London (day 1) so you could nip home, but (FTLs allowing) you are then "contactable" the next evening (of day 2) for a duty AM next day (day 3).....it's a personal preference thing.

Plenty still commuting, but the company will still audit. Lifetsyle probably depends on number of trips per-month, gap between trips.

Min time between trips? Driven by bidding and FTLs now, whether you are willing to waive Industrial agreements to pack the work in/get enough work on your line to reach the hours target...You could probably plan on 2 days (3 local nights, longer for some trips with big time zone change elements) but it might suit you to reduce when bidding...

Can staff travel be used for commuting? ATM yes, but watch out trying to commute from somewhere with lots of more senior commuters and not many flights. Other option is slightly (and I means slightly) discounted commercial tickets ("hotlines").

Swapping trips in the general scheme of things when not on reserve is still possible when legal.

Swapping standbys ( when on reserve) with a trip is v tricky...You can tell "crewing" perhaps at the start of the Reserve period that you would prefer trips to standby's, but they are meant to equalise trips and standbys across all those on reserve. Once you actually get nobbled (the evening before) with a standby period for the next day crewing will have run their plan and are unlikely to want to change it...and they do like to keep their standby's intact "just in case".



General Lifestyle on LH fleet:

Do BA have a sensible approach to 3 and 4 person crews on long sectors to at least mitigate some fatigue?
Examples - East coast states and a bit further ( up to and including ORD, sometimes even MIA) 2 pilot, the Gulf, Central Africa (LOS, ABV) 2 pilot...other extreme such as SIN/EZE is 4 pilot, stuff in between generally 3 pilot.

HTH

[Stocious]

It is marginally better because it includes Flying Pay in the 15% calculation. The reduction in joining pension was suggested but soundly rejected by the current workforce, something which would definitely not happen in BA!

BA Pension contributions are based on a seperate 'Pensionable pay' payscale however, which for me is nominally £12k higher than my basic pay.
I'd suggest that the current BA workforce are pretty united at the moment though, given the most recent ballot!

[zero/zero]

BA Pension contributions are based on a seperate 'Pensionable pay' payscale however, which for me is nominally £12k higher than my basic pay.
I'd suggest that the current BA workforce are pretty united at the moment though, given the most recent ballot!

PP1 ‘pensionable pay’ from the current MoA is £57403 under BARP (what a new joiner will get). Year 1 at Virgin is £77000.

The fact that there are 3 different pension schemes and 2 different salary scales in the company suggests something other than a united workforce. That’s before we start talking about JSS and the differences that’s created between the most junior and the most senior.

[Stocious]

Good for Virgin. I still won't be applying to join.

For every year after PP1, it;s higher than the basic pay, all the way up to £40k more on the P1 payscale.
BARP doesn't exist any more, and only one pension scheme now for us all. In fact the only differing thing for us now is PP24 vs PP34 but that's hardly going to affect new joiners is it?

[zero/zero]

Good for Virgin. I still won't be applying to join.

For every year after PP1, it;s higher than the basic pay, all the way up to £40k more on the P1 payscale.
BARP doesn't exist any more, and only one pension scheme now for us all. In fact the only differing thing for us now is PP24 vs PP34 but that's hardly going to affect new joiners is it?

I stand ready to be corrected but you’re quoting LGW P1 figures, where a lower local pay scale combined with mainline pension makes for a big difference. For a PP34 Mainline LH Captain, the pensionable pay is less than his basic.

[Justanothervoice]

Scatter gun reply whilst you wait for a junior pilot to reply:

HTH

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

A friend sent me a chunk of sample rosters of junior FO rosters off a cross section of long haul fleets fleets. From some very rough calculations it seems like weekend days off are going to be at a premium.

Percentage of weekends with either a Saturdays or Sundays clear of any duty: 24% (35% Including leave)
Percentage of weekends with either a Saturdays or Sundays was partially off (Allowing for approximately 8 hours of leisure time after a duty) : 16%
Percentage of weekends where both Saturdays and Sundays where spent on duty or away in trip: 59%
Percentage of weekends when the whole weekend was clear of duty: 17% (30% including leave)

Is there anyone who can tell me if these figures are realistic?

Thanks again for any input.

[red9]

24% would suggest one in four week ends off , which I find hard to believe - having been over 12 months personally without a week end off - and I am not quite at the bottom of the pile.

[Justanothervoice]

24% would suggest one in four week ends off , which I find hard to believe - having been over 12 months personally without a week end off - and I am not quite at the bottom of the pile.

Sorry, my post was poorly worded. I have corrected it now. Looking through the rosters, only 17% of weekends were off while 24% percent of weekends had a duty either starting or ending on a Saturday or Sunday. 59% of the weekends where were completely taken up by trips.

Your reply does seem to tie into what I was which was an awful lot of people could go through a whole month without having even one Saturday or Sunday off.

[red9]

" a whole month" - try 12 months +

[MikeAlpha320]

Not had a weekend off besides leave on SH... been here nearly 12 months.

[V737]

Could someone give me some more information about this requirement? What exactly is it?

5 GCSE’s including Math’s, English and Science (excluding General studies and Critical
Thinking) grade C and above plus 112 UCAS points according to the 2017 UCAS point
system or equivalent.

[Jumbo2]

Not had a weekend off besides leave on SH... been here nearly 12 months.

12 months, so no weekend of during 9 months of Blindlines under the old bidline system and neither during the 3 months of JSS?

At least JSS produces simular results as the old system then. Looking at the junior SH roster they look very similar as the old blindlines and junior trip lines.

Good thing is on SH your seniority will go up far quicker then as a DEP LH and within BA you only have to be junior once!

[zero/zero]

... within BA you only have to be junior once!

This is indeed true, but in reality this means refusing command and therefore an effective pay cut in order to have a liveable lifestyle

[Jock Trapped]

Not had a weekend off besides leave on SH... been here nearly 12 months.

Could I ask about reserve months? I read somewhere here that they include 7 days in a row free of duty? Obviously that would include a weekend. Can you bid for reserve or is it just allocated to you from time to time?

[Stocious]

I stand ready to be corrected but you’re quoting LGW P1 figures, where a lower local pay scale combined with mainline pension makes for a big difference. For a PP34 Mainline LH Captain, the pensionable pay is less than his basic.

Not sure which figures you're looking at but for every year on the PP34 P1 Mainline scale, every pensionable pay point is higher than the basic with the exception of PP1, some of PP2, PP33 and PP34. The figure I chose for the biggest difference is SH PP24 where the difference is over 40k.

LGW doesn't have a lower payscale though, it's identical to LHR SH, just with a cap.

[hunterboy]

You can bid for reserve, though probably struggle to get it from Sep to Dec, when pilots start strategically bidding for their Christmas roster . To be honest, reserve isn’t a bad gig if you live within 2 hours of the car park and don’t mind being flexible. The last few reserves months I’ve done, I’ve sat at home on call or visited my parents and counted that as a day off if not called. I ended up with an average of 18 days “off” each month. I accept that you don’t know it’s a day free of duty until the end of the standby period, but if you are happy to be flexible and drop what you are doing if the company call, then it’s not a bad gig. I know some junior guys were doing 4 a year on some fleets and gaining another 4 weeks off a year with the 7 day fixed days off block.

[wiggy]

Could I ask about reserve months? I read somewhere here that they include 7 days in a row free of duty? Obviously that would include a weekend. Can you bid for reserve or is it just allocated to you from time to time?


In the context of Longhaul as was mentioned upthread the first 7 days are days free of duty which will include a weekend off.

You bid for reserve but there's an associated points system and also tier/banding system tied into time in the company so your "time to time" can be fairly often though you can't be "assigned" (i.e. forced) to do two reserves in consecutive months.

As hunterboy has correctly pointed out if you live within 2 hours of the airport Reserve can work to your advantage if you are prepared to live with a bit of uncertainty.

[wiggy]

We were told at a BA presentation that it takes about 7 years seniority to get at least 1 weekend day of regularly.


I'm looking right now at some Longhaul (very new) DEP rosters ( middle 4000 seniority) and FWIW there are a few some with single weekend days off (i.e; the Saturday or the Sunday completely clear)..but certainly not many, and there a lot of rosters where every weekend day of the month (April)is touched by work.

There are very very few who can guarantee regularly getting a particular specific weekend day off, to do that on a regular basis you need to be extremely senior (left or right seat). That was certainly the case under Bidline and looks like being the case underJSS.

..and it is tough on family life, hence the attractiveness of the various part time contracts

[Jock Trapped]

..and it is tough on family life, hence the attractiveness of the various part time contracts

Thanks for all the info Wiggy, as a potential new joiner, hopefully faced with that decision in the near future, it’s really useful to be looking at a DEP role with eyes open.

Does anyone know how accommodating BA are wrt parental leave, not for a new born, but the gov’t allocation of unpaid weeks upto 18yrs old. Thinking using that, along with reserve, leave, and an understanding other half may all make the move manageable re lifestyle.

[skyflyer737]

When I was at BA you had to complete 12 months’ service before parental leave was an option. Then, you could email them and they’d email back with dates available for your fleet / seat. They were accommodating in so far as they have to offer it but not so accommodating with regards to when it was available. Ultimately family life was unmanageable for me as a junior longhaul FO who lived more than 2 hrs from LHR.

[Tay Cough]

We were told at a BA presentation that it takes about 7 years seniority to get at least 1 weekend day of regularly. The first 3-4 years very unlikely to get a full weekend off. The pilots were quite honest showed us loads of rosters.

If you have a young family with partner working as well it won’t be easy.


You can guarantee a weekend off every month at pretty much any seniority by doing reserve. Not ideal for the other three weeks - but in desperation...

As mentioned, as a junior bod you should be able to get a Saturday or a Sunday most months. What you won’t be able to guarantee is a specific one. You may be able to be a bit picky about specific midweek days (probably not a Friday) but that’s about it.

In short, if you need specific weekend days off - especially if it’s every month - you will not be able to achieve them at BA, irrespective of fleet, until you have been in for several years.

[VJW]

As mentioned, as a junior bod you should be able to get a Saturday or a Sunday most months.

Wow that sounds beyond horrific for anyone with a life outside of work; be it family or social and/or a combination of the two.

[no sponsor]

I’ve been in 8 years. I regularly get at least one of the weekend days off a month. Either by landing early on a Saturday and subsequently having the Sunday off, or departing on a Sunday, therefore getting the Saturday off. I honestly don’t specifically bit for that, it’s just how it seems to work out. Don’t forget a lot of guys don’t care about working weekends. Everyone has different ideas of what is good or not. Spending a Saturday night in Accra could be for you!

Dont forget we we do have our six golden days per year. These are days on a first come first served basis where you bid for a specific 1-2 days off. Seniority doesn’t come into it.

I am LH, and I can’t speak for SH, as I left that a few years ago. I don’t recall it being too bad though. No ideas under JSS.

At LGW there are other ways of getting out of duties and swapping stuff with those in charge in the office, as long as you were reasonable and flexible. :}

[wiggy]

I get the impression that the issue that might be raising eyebrows for some at the moment is the difficulty (or not) in getting a specific day off on a regular basis, perhaps to tie in with domestic issues such as a partner's working arrangements or children's activities..

I'm inclined to say it can't be done without going part time, but as you say the newly introduced Golden Days might provide a solution 6 days of the year.

[bex88]

JSS is terrible at the bottom. I essentially bid for all work, anything, everything but please limit my day trip to 4 or less. Result.....fall back and 14, possibly 15 reports to LHR. I live well within the required 90 minutes but that is more than 1 and a half days driving!

There are some benefits to JSS but the protections and inhibitors need adjusting. As has been mentioned weekend work is not a issue. Has anyone actually tried to go anywhere at the weekend? Nightmare! Give me a week day off most of the time thanks

[Hotel Mode]

The vast majority of the most junior Capts and FOs are doing plenty of 2 - 5 day tours though, so its something in your bid that's putting you in fallback not a fundamental result of JSS.

By limiting JSS even in your lowest BG to 4 day trips in a month on a short haul fleet you are seriously harming JSSs ability to create a roster. Surely it would be better gradually relaxing that limit and not going into fallback and at least getting some of what you want?

[red9]

I wouldnt have thought that requesting a maximum of 4 day trips in a month to be unreasonable ?, especially for some one who is perhaps a commuter or someone who just prefers night stops and doesnt mind where / when / with whom ? I agree JSS just doesnt work when your near the bottom ( by near I mean less than 50%)

[Hotel Mode]

I wouldnt have thought that requesting a maximum of 4 day trips in a month to be unreasonable ?, especially for some one who is perhaps a commuter or someone who just prefers night stops and doesnt mind where / when / with whom ? I agree JSS just doesnt work when your near the bottom ( by near I mean less than 50%)

No, its not. I'm not saying don't bid for only 4, but, if JSS needs to give you 5 for whatever reason do you really want lose every other preference? Just gradually release the requirement until JSS can produce a roster. Limiting day trips to 4 is a very powerful bid.

[bex88]

Its not a bidding issue 100% guarantee. Even the JSS trainers are powerless to help. It’s a JSS issue

[WhatTheDeuce]

Are you in the ex bmi bubble? Could have something to do with it

[bex88]

:ugh: It may have a lot to do with it.

Is it different?

[red9]

:ugh: It may have a lot to do with it.

Is it different?


It shouldnt be, but it is.........

[WhatTheDeuce]

I think as your group is 1/3 the size of the other pool it leads to reduced satisfaction towards the bottom of the list.

Especially as each group has to whittle down to only one trip per day leftover on global constraints.

That, combined with the lack of movement up the list for eternity, were the shocking outcomes of your former colleagues volunteering you under the bus at the last zipper vote.

[Justanothervoice]

Minimal days off on weekends for junior pilots seems to be a very prevalent theme.

So the only realistic expectation for weekends off are going to those that have been booked through "Gold" days and leave. What is the leave allowance? Is it based on seniority or is it points based depending on what leave you had the previous year (Peak summer/Christmas ect.)?

Thanks.

[italian stallion]

Just been invited to an assessment , but now after reading this thread I'm not sure anymore..
nothing mentioned yet about paying for type rating, and I need to fund my own airfare and accommodation, for an airline with 3 daily flight from my city......

[hunterboy]

As far as Parental leave goes, BA are pretty accommodating as long as you aren’t for school holidays off. As you can imagine, there is a waitlist for the public/school holiday periods, but outside that, you’d stand a pretty good chance . I believe you can only use 4 weeks a year per child though?

[SpainHire]

Just been invited to an assessment , but now after reading this thread I'm not sure anymore..
nothing mentioned yet about paying for type rating, and I need to fund my own airfare and accommodation, for an airline with 3 daily flight from my city......

Are you a new pilot or experienced? Only new pilots have to pay and it was clearly written on the job description document before you applied....

[wiggy]

Just been invited to an assessment , but now after reading this thread I'm not sure anymore..
nothing mentioned yet about paying for type rating, and I need to fund my own airfare and accommodation, for an airline with 3 daily flight from my city......

As SpainHire has pointed out as it stands DEPs are not being asked to fund the type rating.

I'd offer the option that you are right to be concerned about only having 3 daily "commuting" flights...it can be done, but stating the obvious you can end up with a lot of "dead" time, either at LHR after arriving or before going home.

[wiggy]

Minimal days off on weekends for junior pilots seems to be a very prevalent theme.

So the only realistic expectation for weekends off are going to those that have been booked through "Gold" days and leave. What is the leave allowance? Is it based on seniority or is it points based depending on what leave you had the previous year (Peak summer/Christmas ect.)?

Thanks.

Basic answer follows..open to correction/amplification.

Two leave "seasons" - Summer & Winter.

In each season you are entitled to 14 days leave and one Duty free Week (DFW)

So total 28 leave days and 2 X DFWs every twelve months

Leave can be taken as one 14 day block ( traditionally starts on a Saturday, though under JSS you may now be able to slide leave start by +- I think 3 days) or two 7 day blocks ( starting on a Saturday, now also subject to possible "slide").

One block has a couple of "wrap" days before where the company can't assign work ..the other block has "wrap" days after. Those days accrue zero credit.

You cannot break annual leave down into any smaller blocks, such as single days or two day blocks .

DFW is a single week, with one (optional) credit free day of free duty before it starts.

leave is awarded on the basis of a points system..if points are equal senority rules.

HTH.

[eckhard]

Just to add to Wiggy’s excellent post, one of the benefits of the DFW is that you can elect to work during some or all of it, thereby earning extra credit which can be ‘spent’ by taking days off elsewhere. Thus, if the dates of DFW awarded are not your first choice, you can maybe get some better free days. This used to be easier under bidline and I’m no expert on JSS but worth considering anyway. You can’t work during leave, so that is the main difference.

[Stocious]

You can work during all leave at LGW though.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

You can work during all leave at LGW though.

You sure? Do you mean by selling it back?

[Northern Monkey]

As far as Parental leave goes, BA are pretty accommodating as long as you aren’t for school holidays off. As you can imagine, there is a waitlist for the public/school holiday periods, but outside that, you’d stand a pretty good chance . I believe you can only use 4 weeks a year per child though?


This hasn't been my experience. Out of 4 applications for parental leave I have only been successful once. On top of that it is never approved out of the gate, it is always waitlisted and you are left unable to make plans.

[Jock Trapped]

This hasn't been my experience. Out of 4 applications for parental leave I have only been successful once. On top of that it is never approved out of the gate, it is always waitlisted and you are left unable to make plans.

Do you mind me asking if for the other 3 they offered you alternative dates? The theory goes that you can ask for upto 4 weeks per year per child and whilst your employer can refuse, has to give you an alternative time within 6 months of the original date requested.

(FWIW I tried that argument at a previous employer and they offered dates unpaid that I was already due to be on leave, not really in the spirit!!)

[Stocious]

You sure? Do you mean by selling it back?

Very sure. You can swap trips onto LGW leave without issues or do overtime, done it many times.

[Busdriver01]

I read somewhere else in the depths of this site that long haul layovers are to eventually be reduced to 24hrs. Any truth to that or just plain rumour mill? Doesn’t sound like time for much more than dinner, very short sightseeing trip if you can be bothered, sleep, eat, fly home...

[Riskybis]

I read somewhere else in the depths of this site that long haul layovers are to eventually be reduced to 24hrs. Any truth to that or just plain rumour mill? Doesn’t sound like time for much more than dinner, very short sightseeing trip if you can be bothered, sleep, eat, fly home...
when I used to be at BA , Seattle was a night stop and supposedly rumours that SFO/LAX may get reduced to 1 night

[wiggy]

I read somewhere else in the depths of this site that long haul layovers are to eventually be reduced to 24hrs. Any truth to that or just plain rumour mill? Doesn’t sound like time for much more than dinner, very short sightseeing trip if you can be bothered, sleep, eat, fly home...






It has been “suggested” by one of the very senior management...:*

I think it went something along the lines of “ you know, if you reduced rest down route it would mean more time at home”......I might be wrong but the follow up might have. been something to do with having a bridge to sell.

I guess the idea might get some traction with those who get bored with LAX, HKG or SFO etc but I don’t think most people are interested so IMHO it’s not an immediate threat but it is obviously on a wish list.

Riskybis - the slip timings you describe, a consequence of the ancient and cunningly named “West Coast agreement”, are still intact.

[V737]

I recently applied for BA and now I have to complete an online assessment. Can anyone give me some more details about what to expect?

Thank you!

[Jumbo2]

I recently applied for BA and now I have to complete an online assessment. Can anyone give me some more details about what to expect?

Thank you!
Is that for BA mainline or BA cityflyer?

Both vacancies show on the BA.com career website but as far as I'm aware an online assessment is not part of the BA mainline selection.

BA mainline selection:
-Online application
-Day 1; Verbal and Numerical Reasoning and a computer test
-Day 2; Interview and Group exercise
-Day 3; Simulator assesment

[DuctOvht]

Are you sure he/she isn’t talking about the pre-selection personality profile, or has that been canned?

[onichols1]

Can anyone shed any light on the Maths test? Is it the same as the FPP?

[V737]

Can anyone shed any light on the Maths test? Is it the same as the FPP?

It is quite easy, just make sure you work quick enough.

[ph-sbe]

SFO/LAX may get reduced to 1 night

Bad idea. More fatigued crew in 0A/B will not improve safety statistics.

[Justanothervoice]

Is there any truth in plans to change how reserve is allocated to address the senior/junior imbalance of working weekends? I've heard that basically the more weekends you work, the less reserve periods you'll be allocated. Thus, some senior guys may start electing to do more weekend work to avoid reserve I suppose?

[RexBanner]

Not really true. The points you accrue by doing weekend work under JSS only become used as a tiebreaker when assigning reserve periods to people with otherwise equal points. (According to recent posts on yammer). Weekend points therefore make absolutely naff all difference to the frequency you’ll do reserve as a junior pilot, especially as all the junior guys will have broadly equal weekend points as they’re the ones who’ll be working all of them!

[Justanothervoice]

Not really true. The points you accrue by doing weekend work under JSS only become used as a tiebreaker when assigning reserve periods to people with otherwise equal points. (According to recent posts on yammer). Weekend points therefore make absolutely naff all difference to the frequency you’ll do reserve as a junior pilot, especially as all the junior guys will have broadly equal weekend points as they’re the ones who’ll be working all of them!

Thanks for clarifying.

Is this disparity of lifestyle between junior and senior pilots something that is trying to be addressed? I'm in a seniority based airline and while rosters are meant to have some seniority weighting, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as critical as at BA. Is this just going to be a fact of life at BA or is there a push for some change while maintaining some advantage of being senior?

[champair79]

BALPA keep amending the inhibitors to try and broadly flatten the gradient slightly and allow a greater spread of work down the seniority list. However, someone’s gold is another person’s sh*t. Everyone has their own preferences. I’m about 75% on the Airbus FO list and broadly get what I want (providing I don’t get shafted with global constraints). The downside is that I have to work every weekend to have a chance of achieving reasonable trips.

Weekends worked seems to be the main bug bear at the moment. I really think BA needs to perhaps introduce a minimum number of weekends worked even if you’re at the top of the list. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 or even 8 weeks with junior people getting 1 off in 4 (or 8). How it would be introduced is a discussion for later. Personally I don’t mind on the whole but it really affects others. Golden days are great but the lead time for putting them in is quite long and many of my friends outside of the industry haven’t quite grasped that. Therefore a lot of social invites for weekend get-togethers have to be turned down due to work.

Reserve is something else that needs to be looked at. A 28 day block is tough on your personal life. I believe BALPA and BA are thinking of introducing shorter blocks in addition to the current blocks to give people a bit of a choice. Without moaning about part timers, a lot of them haven’t done reserve for years if the computer is physically unable to insert a reserve period into their roster without clashing with their part time weeks. That to me doesn’t seem fair and would spread out the reserve duties a bit if it was fixed.

champ

[ChrisE]

Does anybody have any insight as to current wait time in the pool, or number of swimmers please?

[FACoff]

BALPA keep amending the inhibitors to try and broadly flatten the gradient slightly and allow a greater spread of work down the seniority list. However, someone’s gold is another person’s sh*t. Everyone has their own preferences. I’m about 75% on the Airbus FO list and broadly get what I want (providing I don’t get shafted with global constraints). The downside is that I have to work every weekend to have a chance of achieving reasonable trips.

Weekends worked seems to be the main bug bear at the moment. I really think BA needs to perhaps introduce a minimum number of weekends worked even if you’re at the top of the list. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 or even 8 weeks with junior people getting 1 off in 4 (or 8). How it would be introduced is a discussion for later. Personally I don’t mind on the whole but it really affects others. Golden days are great but the lead time for putting them in is quite long and many of my friends outside of the industry haven’t quite grasped that. Therefore a lot of social invites for weekend get-togethers have to be turned down due to work.

Reserve is something else that needs to be looked at. A 28 day block is tough on your personal life. I believe BALPA and BA are thinking of introducing shorter blocks in addition to the current blocks to give people a bit of a choice. Without moaning about part timers, a lot of them haven’t done reserve for years if the computer is physically unable to insert a reserve period into their roster without clashing with their part time weeks. That to me doesn’t seem fair and would spread out the reserve duties a bit if it was fixed.

champ

Totally agree, this stuff desperately needs addressing. Even some of the more senior guys admit (not even reluctantly) that JSS is totally unfair in its current form. They get literally everything they want whilst we juniors work the weekends and suffer bi-monthly reserve at the cost of having a life. As one of these lemmings, I can honestly say that my lifestyle has never been this bad - even my whopping £400 net bonus hasn't made up for it.

BA are well known for their glacial pace of change, so I think it's fair to assume that any improvement to these significant issues won't gain momentum unless it transpires a few quid can be saved. We can live in hope though!

[Tay Cough]

Reserve is something else that needs to be looked at. A 28 day block is tough on your personal life. I believe BALPA and BA are thinking of introducing shorter blocks in addition to the current blocks to give people a bit of a choice. Without moaning about part timers, a lot of them haven’t done reserve for years if the computer is physically unable to insert a reserve period into their roster without clashing with their part time weeks. That to me doesn’t seem fair and would spread out the reserve duties a bit if it was fixed.

You can probably expect to see some shorter Reserve periods before much longer in Shorthaul. There is a suggestion that some 28 day periods (with 7 Fixed Days Off) will be retained as some people like the big block of days off. The intent is to bring shorter reserves onto Longhaul as well but that is a work in progress still, given that the longest longhaul trips is 9 days. I would expect to see shorter periods there too eventually, although perhaps ten or fourteen days (with pro-rated FDOs) in addition to the current format. What longhaul really needs though is reserve with two Fixed Days Off at the end to stop Current Ops taking the mick...

[Jwscud]

Does anybody have any insight as to current wait time in the pool, or number of swimmers please?

As soon as they can plug you into the training plan you will get called I believe, particularly if you are already rated on a type we operate. No swimming as such these days!

[Mylius]

Quite correct, but the Madrid viewpoint is no incident = no problem! Push is as far as you can and see what happens to the share price.

Bad idea. More fatigued crew in 0A/B will not improve safety statistics.

[ChrisE]

As soon as they can plug you into the training plan you will get called I believe, particularly if you are already rated on a type we operate. No swimming as such these days!

Great thanks for the info! Sort of - although the majority of my experience is on Boeing pencils and slightly fatter pencils.. which obviously aren't in your fleet anymore! Been waiting a couple of weeks now, but heard that some people have waited 24hrs-4weeks for a fleet/start!

[3Greens]

Great thanks for the info! Sort of - although the majority of my experience is on Boeing pencils and slightly fatter pencils.. which obviously aren't in your fleet anymore! Been waiting a couple of weeks now, but heard that some people have waited 24hrs-4weeks for a fleet/start!
it seems the manpower team in flight ops, are critically short of well, manpower.

[matzpenetration]

As someone with over 15 years in BA, I can say that, in my opinion BA is only worth it if you live within 60mins of LHR and want to remain living in the SE of England. To get any quality time with your family on SH you need to book parental leave and take strategic sickness to avoid alienation by your children and divorce from your other half. Pay is now on a par with EZY and the much touted safety culture is nothing more than a myth peddled by senior managers desperate to hit their punctuality targets at all costs. With hindsight, I should have joined EZY as the overall package is better, the training far superior and the operational culture more geared towards efficiency in a way that we could only dream of.

[RexBanner]

In contrast there are guys commuting from outside of 60 minutes of Heathrow residing in a more tax friendly regime on Long Haul 75% Part Time living the absolute life doing (due to a mixture of part time weeks and leave) an average of two trips a month every other month and taking home as much as their full time counterparts living in the UK. Granted these guys are (occasionally) having to spend additional nights in the UK pre duty post the Staff Travel Audit - but not a significant amount - and it’s a relatively unique position in which to be in but let’s not pretend it’s not still possible to make BA work for you.

If if you’re happy with the monotony (just my opinion, horses for courses etc) of doing multiple sector days day in day out for the rest of a 30+ year career then fill your boots, easyJet is a fantastic airline to work for I’d never argue that. I’ve been there and done it. However if you want many varied directions in which to take your career, many of which are not available in the land of orange, then BA is (despite all its flaws and there are many) the best show in town.

(I appreciate the lack of coherence that because a small minority of the workforce can have it spectacularly good so that’s a convincing argument for the majority to join. However it’s really just to highlight BA is a place where you can make it work for you, more so than any other airline).

[Boeing 7E7]

In contrast there are guys commuting from outside of 60 minutes of Heathrow residing in a more tax friendly regime on Long Haul 75% Part Time living the absolute life doing (due to a mixture of part time weeks and leave) an average of two trips a month every other month and taking home as much as their full time counterparts living in the UK. Granted these guys are (occasionally) having to spend additional nights in the UK pre duty post the Staff Travel Audit - but not a significant amount - and it’s a relatively unique position in which to be in but let’s not pretend it’s not still possible to make BA work for you.

If if you’re happy with the monotony (just my opinion, horses for courses etc) of doing multiple sector days day in day out for the rest of a 30+ year career then fill your boots, easyJet is a fantastic airline to work for I’d never argue that. I’ve been there and done it. However if you want many varied directions in which to take your career, many of which are not available in the land of orange, then BA is (despite all its flaws and there are many) the best show in town.

(I appreciate the lack of coherence that because a small minority of the workforce can have it spectacularly good so that’s a convincing argument for the majority to join. However it’s really just to highlight BA is a place where you can make it work for you, more so than any other airline).

Hear hear, tax avoidance at its best. Paying tax is for plebs. Or something like that.

[RexBanner]

Hear hear, tax avoidance at its best. Paying tax is for plebs. Or something like that.

Pray tell, if the guys and girls in question are residing and domiciled outside the UK in places where they have been born and bred then why the hell should they pay tax in the UK simply for setting foot in the CRC for an hour or so before their duty of which they will spend less than 10% of the time inside UK airspace?

[bex88]

Because they are ferried from Dublin via London to Barcelona on staff travel and have great pride in telling me they pay bugger all tax. My question, so what trip have you got.......”oh nothing I just need to attend a hospital appointment then I will go back to Dublin”

[wiggy]

It is Monday so...colour me confused, what's this about DUB/LHR/BCN???..

Who are "they"? and how often does this "ferrying" happen?

..and to address the hoary old point about "commuters" and Tax avoidance: living outside the UK does not in itself automatically mean an individual is paying "bugger all tax"..(thinks..that reminds me, I must get back to working on my Tax return later..the non UK one)

Anyhow I fear we have strayed wildly off piste..

[bex88]

They split their time between Dublin and somewhere in Europe. I believe it’s some dodge in Ireland but they can only spend x days a year there so they split their time. Fair enough but the hospital appointment got me. Anyway....Corbyn government and maybe we should all do the same.

What was the original topic anyway ����

[GS-Alpha]

There are plenty of people commuting from outside the UK who pay their taxes in the countries in which they reside, and there are plenty of people who are pretty much avoiding paying tax altogether, by not actually being properly resident anywhere. To be honest I wonder why I don’t go and become one of them. The taxation system on some BA pilots is extreme. I will be working for the next two years as a high earning UK tax payer and my net income during that time will be zero! The tax man will receive it all, via a mixture of my income tax, national insurance, and tax on my final salary pension increase due to promotion. That is not a fair taxation system and the fact it drives many to extremes to stop giving the tax man any more than they absolutely have to, is of no surprise to me. Many would call me lucky to have a final salary pension scheme, but it doesn’t matter which way you skin it, working for free for two years is not a fair taxation system, and rebellion against that unfairness is why many people decide enough is enough and actively avoid as much tax as they can.

[hunterboy]

I wonder how all these ME and China ex pats sleep at night knowing they’re avoiding all these first world taxes? Pretty well, I imagine.

[Lordflasheart]

Apparently 'Inbox full' is prunish for 'newbies can't send or receive pms' (and similar restrictions) until established as genuine members, whatever that means. I still can't find specific C&V for those rules.


....

[Raph737]

Hi everyone, anyone else having issues with booking assessments? no availability in the last couple of weeks every time I log in...

[V737]

Is there anyone who already received some feedback?

[Stocious]

Does anyone have an idea of current waiting time in the hold pool for type rated guys/girls?

Not long! A week or two max atm.

[ChrisE]

Not long! A week or two max atm.

Well i've been there for 4 weeks... not that i'm complaining considering there aren't any B777 or B787 courses until the summer (supposedly!)

[VJW]

Well i've been there for 4 weeks... not that i'm complaining considering there aren't any B777 or B787 courses until the summer (supposedly!)

Try waiting 18-24 months that the batch before you had to ;)

[Daddy Fantastic]

So which are the most tax friendly havens these other pilots live in and commute from?

[hunterboy]

Portugal seems to be the fav at the moment.

[RexBanner]

Lots commuting from the crown dependencies, but you need the right to live there, not easy and generally speaking it’s by birth, hence my previous comment about people who were born and bred there.

[Buter]

Not sure if you’re referring to the Channel Islands, but you have every right to live there with a UK passport. Portugal would leave quite a bit more in your pocket, however.

Cheers

B

[Freehills]

Not sure if you’re referring to the Channel Islands, but you have every right to live there with a UK passport. Portugal would leave quite a bit more in your pocket, however.

Cheers

B

True, but without a housing permit, your options on what property you can buy or rent in CI are severely restricted/ more expensive...

[RexBanner]

True, but without a housing permit, your options on what property you can buy or rent in CI are severely restricted/ more expensive...

precisely. You can’t buy property in Jersey unless you are residentially qualified. That takes over ten years nowadays. Renting a non qualified property for ten years commensurate with the standard in which you want to live is extremely difficult and going to severely set you back and (together with commuting costs) negate any saving you would make in tax. So theoretically possibly yes but practically pointless.

Anyway sincere apologies for the immense thread drift for which I am again partially responsible!

[Buter]

All correct. You actually left out the fact that the commute itself sucks.

Therefore, Portugal is a far better option for weather, commuting and tax avoidance (avoidance is perfectly legal, evasion is what gets you in trouble).

Are people still trying to join BA...?

B

[SinBin]

All correct. You actually left out the fact that the commute itself sucks.

Therefore, Portugal is a far better option for weather, commuting and tax avoidance (avoidance is perfectly legal, evasion is what gets you in trouble).

Are people still trying to join BA...?

B

Apparently!

[HardLanding1]

Hi All,

I'm joining BA soon on LH and I've got a fair amount of information about how stuff works, but I haven't got any info on part time. Could anyone shed some light on what part time options are available and what hoops need to be jumped through before I'd be eligible?

Cheers
HL

[Northern Monkey]

I can't be too specific - someone else will be along with the exact options. What I can tell you is that it will probably be quite a long wait. As far as I'm aware, no part time has been granted whatsoever in 2019.

[P0tt3r]

I can't be too specific - someone else will be along with the exact options. What I can tell you is that it will probably be quite a long wait. As far as I'm aware, no part time has been granted whatsoever in 2019.

Maybe no “aspirational” part time has been granted. “Right to request” part time has I believe.

[HardLanding1]

Thanks for getting back to me, I'm sorry for being completely clueless, but is aspirational just like attaching it to a bid? the same way you would indicate what fleet/rank you would like to be?

As for right of request, I thought it was now a statutory right to request part time under flexi-working rules, although the company has a million and one easy ways to reject it as per the usual UK employment laws... Do BA have a different (improved?) system to this?

My main reason for asking is I'm going to be commuting from mainland Europe (not to tax dodge as seems to be the main motivation according to this thread!), and ideally I'd like to get onto something like a 75% contract as soon as possible to ease some of the burden of commuting off. Is this something I could expect within say the first 5 years, or something that will have to wait until further in my career? And do factors like having newly born children effect the likelihood of getting accepted?

Thanks in advance everyone and hope to see you on the line soon!

[RexBanner]

Thanks for getting back to me, I'm sorry for being completely clueless, but is aspirational just like attaching it to a bid? the same way you would indicate what fleet/rank you would like to be?

As for right of request, I thought it was now a statutory right to request part time under flexi-working rules, although the company has a million and one easy ways to reject it as per the usual UK employment laws... Do BA have a different (improved?) system to this?

My main reason for asking is I'm going to be commuting from mainland Europe (not to tax dodge as seems to be the main motivation according to this thread!), and ideally I'd like to get onto something like a 75% contract as soon as possible to ease some of the burden of commuting off. Is this something I could expect within say the first 5 years, or something that will have to wait until further in my career? And do factors like having newly born children effect the likelihood of getting accepted?

Thanks in advance everyone and hope to see you on the line soon!


Right to Request is exactly as it says on the tin, you have the right to request part time working (for whatever reason you like nowadays, having children is not a prerequisite). The company cannot simply refuse/reject it, you’ll be put on a waiting list and eventually it’ll be granted. How long is anyone’s guess, it seems to be roughly a year at the moment but I know some who’ve had it granted more quickly than that (also longer too).

Aspirational part time is a different pattern of working and part of the annual Priam bid whereas right to request can be done at any time of year by going through the official application channels with HR.

Theres plenty of pilots who’ve had RTR granted within the first five years (some within the first two years!) as there’s no minimum time stipulation.

[Right Engine]

Recruitment is in a death spiral at the moment, because not only are their usual supply lines running dry, there are increasing numbers of pilots in their first year just upping sticks and leaving.
Recruitment are either being really clever and resourcing the line to be fighting fit for a downturn OR really stupid and racing towards a mass cancellation Summer (similar to Ryanair in 2018?)

It’s not pretty at the moment. Bidding via JSS has gone to ratsh*t on some fleets due to not enough pilots.

Not one pilot got awarded part time this year.

It’s going to be a very uncomfortable Summer.

But…Totally predictable too. Yet ‘Finance’ insisted on keeping their boot on the throat of all other departments. And the guy who created this mess. The guy who said ‘NO’ on repeated loop for the last 4 years?

They promoted him to IAG CFO!

[GS-Alpha]

Not one pilot got awarded part time this year.
I presume you are referring to aspirational part time only? I know for a fact that at least one pilot has been given RTR part time in 2019.

[Underdog]

No way!!! What is the bond at BA?


There is no bond per-se at BA (though SSP Pilot’s do pay circa £18K for an Airbus type rating I believe.

The only part-time contracts that have been awarded this year are for compassionate reasons under the RTR scheme. No aspirational contracts have been awarded, and none that have applied for increased PT either (72% moving to 58%).

BA is massively under-resourced at the moment, in practically every department. A toxic management environment keeps everybody just about working through threats of disciplinary procedures if one dares to be too sick in any annual period.

if you’re enjoying short haul somewhere else, my advice would be to stay where you are. It is only the attraction, for some, of long haul that continues to lure people to our airline of faded glory.

As long as you can put up with never having a weekend off for the next few years, working to EASA limits, and a company that will try to give you a self funded pay cut year after year then come on in, the waters lovely!:rolleyes:

Plenty of recent joiners are finding that where they’ve come from is actually a better gig than BA and head back - EZ, RYR, VS et al - even some from the sand pit have returned!

[Propellerhead]

Recruitment is going flat out at the moment, the problem is too little too late. Unfortunately those previously in charge of pilot resources ran down pilot numbers to save money and it's coming back to bite now. I'm sure when the next recession hits they'll be biting the hands off those that want to go part time.....

[geardown1]

Anyone know how often they recruit experienced crew or when they're likely to re-open recruitment? Not BACF, mainline.

Cheers!

[Gingerbread Man]

Is it possible to have rough timeframes for being able to achieve a couple of weekends off each month, for each seat in each fleet? I know it’s a big ask and not very representative without knowing how much future recruitment there would be, but it would be useful to guesstimate the sort of choices you’d have to make for your lifestyle.

I look at a fixed pattern roster and see how many weekends there are off, and then think how tempting BA is that with time served, you can bid to not work any... until your next move! I can’t work out which is preferable; having some off, but having that pattern forever, or the snakes & ladders situation of a seniority list with fleet/seat moves. I was pretty staggered to read on here, and hear from friends how rare a weekend off is in the early days. Obvious when you think about it, but still. A close friend who joined at the start of the latest recruitment wave gets nearly every weekend off on SH. But if he wants to upgrade, or go LH...

[wiggy]

Weekend working and the whole rostering/bidding system is a very controversial issue at the moment.

Whilst you may get best guesses from some on whereabouts on a seniority list you need to be to get a chance of getting a certain number of weekends off e.g. - "A3XX, 25% from the top, get every other W/E off" I'm not sure anyone can give you a definitive timescales in terms of “X months" or “Y years" simply because your rate of movement up a list depends on all sorts of unknowns.

Just for the sake of overview I'll offer that there are lots of grumbles from the Junior and not so junior on both Longhaul and Shorthaul that getting weekends off under JSS is difficult, and guaranteeing specific weekends free is problematic for almost everybody, regardless of seniority, unless they resort to using Golden days ( 6 per year) qnd/or leave or Duty Free Weeks.

[Gingerbread Man]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it and understand the difficulties.

I don’t have an offer or anything, but wanted to be as informed as possible should one come my way in the future.

[RexBanner]

Your seniority will increase more rapidly on short haul (having said that I’ve been in nearly 3 and a half years now and still haven’t quite cracked the top 50% on the Airbus (LHR) despite the 700+ pilot feast of recruitment behind). Stated before here but 50% is the rough watershed moment on any status list. You may well get the odd weekend below that figure but they’ll be rare. Otherwise if you’re bottom 50% on any list expect to work every weekend. On Long Haul fleets where it’s going to take you at least 10 years to crack the top 50% that means you’ll be working every weekend outside of leave for over ten years. If you have a young family at home that’s going to be a major stressor. IMHO it’s an untenable situation. When one of the former Balpa P&P reps has already conceded privately that seniority is ripe for legal challenge it’s surely only a matter of time?

(BTW I stress I’m not advocating that course of action but it would not surprise me one little bit the way things are going).

[wiggy]

Thanks for the reply.



You're welcome, not sure how much use the advice really was but as Rex B has said rostering under JSS seems to be a major stressor for many at the moment, most especially for many at the bottom.

[TheAirMission]

Whats the situation with the BA BALPA pilots that hit the news with the racism email stuff?

[Northern Monkey]

Stated before here but 50% is the rough watershed moment on any status list. You may well get the odd weekend below that figure but they’ll be rare. Otherwise if you’re bottom 50% on any list expect to work every weekend. On Long Haul fleets where it’s going to take you at least 10 years to crack the top 50% that means you’ll be working every weekend outside of leave for over ten years.

While acknowledging that JSS is FAR from perfect this isn't entirely accurate. I'm 60% ish on the 787 and I have been getting weekends off no problem. And going to the places I want to go to. I've been in 8 years so I guess your 10 to 50% is about right though.

That said, the bottom of some fleets (certainly 777/320) looks pretty unpleasant. What remains to be seen is what, if any, effect the tripling of weekend points has on the availability of weekends off. Personally, I will definitely try to work at least a couple of weekends a month because I absolutely don't want to do more reserve.

[bex88]

The tripping of weekend points will have little effect in my opinion. What is needed is for weekend points to actually count towards weekends off. That looks like it’s in the pipeline. I am no fan of the seniority based rostering but with some mechanisms built in to stop the abuse of the system it is probably one I would keep. It is not right that junior guys are working 3-4 days a month more to achieve the same credit.

Weekends are over rated. I am off today and it’s a nightmare, every man and his dog is out. Occasionally it’s nice to get the day off that you need though. Back to work for the rest of the weekend though

[Riskybis]

The tripping of weekend points will have little effect in my opinion. What is needed is for weekend points to actually count towards weekends off. That looks like it’s in the pipeline. I am no fan of the seniority based rostering but with some mechanisms built in to stop the abuse of the system it is probably one I would keep. It is not right that junior guys are working 3-4 days a month more to achieve the same credit.

Weekends are over rated. I am off today and it’s a nightmare, every man and his dog is out. Occasionally it’s nice to get the day off that you need though. Back to work for the rest of the weekend though


do you have kids ? Or a wife/gf that works 9-5 ?
If so, not having weekends off can be very damaging in the long run

[GS-Alpha]

i personally think seniority works for some things, but not others. For instance, I think the points system we utilise for leave works very fairly. If you bid for unpopular leave periods you build up enough points such that you can bid for popular leave periods and expect to get them.

Similarly, I think seniority coupled with the freeze periods after a successful move, works well with PRIAM bidding for fleet and status.

I am not sure how well seniority works for bidding for monthly work though. A bidding system should exist, whereby pilots get some say over when they want to work and the kind of work they’d prefer, but the level of difference that being senior or junior makes is currently ridiculous with JSS. Bidline at least created lines of work in a generally fair work distribution, and you had to pick one that had what you wanted, but more often than not had something you weren’t so keen on in order to get it. That meant the senior pilot could be happy they got the line they wanted, whilst the junior guy wasn’t being well and truly shafted. Now it is very much the case that the senior pilots pick just what they want and the junior guys end up getting shafted. Generally people want to work as little as possible, so the senior guys achieve that, whilst the junior guys have as many trips as possible squeezed onto their lines. Then they get global constraints and crew repair to mess with their bid so that they can have even more work squeezed in. Couple that with the fact the junior guys are paid less, and it really isn’t a fair system at all.

A points system for working weekends needs to be points for avoiding working weekends, not for avoiding reserve. The amount of reserve the junior guys have to do is already way more than what the senior guys have to do. It won’t deter the senior guys from avoiding weekend work. Similarly with trips, there should be a requirement for the system to get everyone as close as possible to the average credit per trip over the year. Junior long haul pilots doing 50% more reports than senior pilots is wrong.

[Smooth Airperator]

Probably a very ignorant question but how hard can it be to put to vote the following concept?

Seniority rules for only 50% worth of weekend work. The other 50% is random.

[3Greens]

Probably a very ignorant question but how hard can it be to put to vote the following concept?

Seniority rules for only 50% worth of weekend work. The other 50% is random.

Because some some of us worked every weekend when we were junior too. It’s not a JSS problem, it was the same with bidline too. I’m sorry, but BA is seniority driven, and it takes time to get the rewards. If you want everything now, you’ve joined the wrong airline.

[GS-Alpha]

I don’t think anyone wants everything now, and you’re wrong, being junior under JSS is not the same as being junior under bidline back when you or I were junior. Not even close.

[wiggy]

Because some some of us worked every weekend when we were junior too. It’s not a JSS problem, it was the same with bidline too.




Agreed, and I'm afraid I'm going to be controversial GS-Alpha because I certainly do remember working every weekend outside of leave for well over 6 months, maybe a year, as a junior Long Haul P1- Bidine, Blindline holder. The only solution I could find was to transition to the Aspirational part time contract....FWIW I still work most weekends in a Full Time Month and of course clobber a weekend during a Part Time Month...IMHO that goes with the territory to some extent but there were some very naive expectations being expressed in the run up to the introduction in JSS, such as " I won't have to work weekends anymore" from someone who had been in the company just over a year..

That said I'm not of the opiion it is fair to inflict perpetual weekend working on the junior, I really am not..

As for the new weekend points system...I think it was set up to make it appear at least something was being done by offering some sort of incentive.... but the link to Reserve Vulnerability rather than weekend work vulnerability was done because (IMHO) the company will be very reluctant to add another clashing/blocking tool by allowing points to be swapped for weekends off.. Given how much BA hates people being able to clash/block work ( part of the reason Bidline went)I was pleasantly surprised that BALPA managed to negotiate the Golden Days....

[GS-Alpha]

Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.

[A340Yumyum]

Whats the situation with the BA BALPA pilots that hit the news with the racism email stuff?

Idiot alert 🙄

[wiggy]

Back in the day, junior pilots did indeed tend to do low credit two man trips over weekends, plus some time assignable days to get them somewhere near a credit protected CAP. Under JSS, junior pilots are doing low credit trips over weekends, plus a couple more trips. 6 long haul trips in a month did not happen for junior pilots in days of old. Weekend working is to be expected because two sevenths of our work is over weekends. However it is wrong that senior pilots can do 4 trips with time in the bunk to help with the fatigue, whilst junior pilots are doing 6 trips because the credit system deems that to be the same amount of work.



I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong.

Obviously you need some way of quantifying work done, but doing it by perhaps simply by looking at number of reports ex-base would open up a whole new can of worms.; on the T7 for example if you go down that road the senior might opt for, say, 5 or 6 TLV 2 day trips, per month, leaving them lots of days off, whilst OTOH the junior would struggle to fill their lines with the longer trips...and how for example do you propose to quantify the single report at base 9 day SIN/SYD/SIN which is on the T7? That can be a real nasty in terms of fatigue and funnily enough often doesn't go massively senior in the bidding, either under Bidline or JSS...

I'd agree "something must be done" to alleviate the problems some are facing but I'm not sure what the solution is, perhaps seeding junior rosters with a "heavy trip"? That of course would takes us back to something that was done in those "days of old...." and back to a fairness element of a system that many people seemed to be very unhappy with and voted to get rid of.

I suspect ultimately the solution lies in addressing the amount of "output" the company thinks is reasonable, there is only so much that can be gained by tinkering with JSS.

[3Greens]

I don’t think anyone wants everything now, and you’re wrong, being junior under JSS is not the same as being junior under bidline back when you or I were junior. Not even close.

how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with
5 trips and two sims.
Took me about 3 years to achieve a couple of weekends a month off. Average hours were maybe a tad less I grant you that. But not a huge amount.
We ahve only had 4 JSS months so I’d say it’s too early to make a massive call on it. Although, I’m not sure I agree with you when you say there’s a massive difference in what the junior are doing now. I think we tend to look back on careers with rose tinted glasses. As said above, a quick trawl on iBid of the last year reveals quite a few lines with 6 trips due FA on them.
i do however think there needs to be a limit on work done though. 5 LH 3 month is probably the limit imo. Unfortunately, BA have found they can sweat the assets so I don’t see it changing soon.

[hunterboy]

I think part of the problem is that our rostering system has been brought into the 21st Century. The ability of computer power to “optimise” rosters was never available before, which meant “inefficient “ rosters as far as the company were concerned. Or extra time off as far as pilots were concerned.
It is a pity that optimise meant different things depending on whether you were BA or a pilot.

[wiggy]

how so then? Because your post made me doubt myself so I had a look at my logbook from 1999 when I joined. Seems very similar actually. Every weekend worked. 4 reserves a year. 790 hours. And 5 east coasts a month the norm. Few months with
5 trips and two sims.


Sounds about right - I joined a while before you ( 747 then 744)....during the early years if the trips weren't long on Time Away from base/low low earning (nil box payments and allowances in soft non convertible currency, multiple weekends away from home) then they were trips involving bouncing across the Atlantic multiple times a month.

It has pretty much always been pants (in relative terms), one way or another, at the bottom of a seniority list...on one fleet (744) it was mitigated by seeding the Blindlines with a "decent" trip...(e.g. HRE or GRU), and what saddens me is it appeared around the time of the ballot that many thought getting rid of Bidline would be the answer to all their problems..

Now, we've done "The four Yorkshiremen" ... do we need to think about trying a look on "The Bright Side". Maybe somebody can come up with a solution to weekend working that doesn't drop everybody in the muck...I reckon setting a flying hours target of 750 a year would be a start and might get JSS working as advertised pre-ballot..fat chance of that.

[GS-Alpha]

I thought we were starting on occasions to see to six trips a month on some lines in relatively recent "days of old" under Bidline and Roster assign/FA but I'm probably wrong.
You are not wrong, but I’m not sure I’d call bidline with FA, the days of old. It was a temporary alleviation to the rules. In the same way that a year or so of hanging about for an hour waiting for a bus from the aircraft to the car park prepared us well for the one hour it tends to take to get from chocks on at T5 to the car park, a few years of FA prepared us well for JSS. Quite clever of BA really. 5 trips a month is busy but doable, and is probably a fair price for being junior, but 6 trips a month is a recipe for serious fatigue in my opinion. Bidline used to have a rule where if you had 5 trips but were not at CAP at stage 1, you could drop as many of them as you liked with the hope of getting closer to CAP with the 5 trips you might pick up at stage 2. I presume the intention there was that 6 trips a month was a bit much. I agree that if you set a max 5 trips or adjusted credit for shorter trips, the senior guys would then switch to picking up 5 of the shortest trips and leave junior guys with 5 long trips. Hence why I stated that a seniority system for monthly bidding doesn’t really work very fairly. I’m all for there being some advantage to being senior, but the advantages are way too high.

Introducing some kind of points system for weekends is an attempt to remove the seniority advantage for that element of monthly bidding. Messing about with inhibitors is an attempt to do away with the seniority advantages there also. We seem to be attempting to use a strict seniority system with a load of sticky plasters. It is true that the BALPA members voted for JSS. When 50% of the pilots are more senior than the others, and many of those in the bottom half recognise they will be in the top half by the time the system comes in, funnily enough, it gets voted in - particularly when tied to a paydeal, it doesn’t mean it is a good system for the guys in the bottom portion.

I know plenty of people who are refusing commands purely because they don’t want to give up the huge lifestyle advantages afforded be being senior.

[Snowflack]

Plus one to working every weekend when junior, first on short haul, as an FO, then again long haul, a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row, admittedly the 3rd was allocated from TASS, but today’s snowflakes would be at the priory after that!

JSS is rubbish, I didn’t vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything.

But JSS is not the problem, it’s the people that promote themselves into a command, then moan about working weekends, like they didn’t know and the people who join a seniority based company, with 34 pay points then moan about it. Those people are the problem!

I wanna be a Captain.......... but I shouldn’t, have to work weekends, poor me........

[wiggy]

"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..

That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going :confused: take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing.

[BA_Baracas]

I’ve been with BA for quite a while now.
I’ve had the best 22 odd years of my life. Great people to work with, going to great places round the world. I really have had a ball.

JSS has changed all of that. If you’re junior you’re going to work every weekend, every month, doing a lot of the most fatiguing trips available with minimum days off. And that’s just long haul, I can’t speak for short haul.

Anyone applying, just bear that in mind...

[Twiglet1]

"a glance at my log book shows the delightful 183/182 combo 4 times in a row"..

That's nasty..very very nasty.... for those going :confused: take a quick look at the timings of the BA183/182 (available on an Internet near you) and translate it into UK time/UK body clock timing.

That's pretty grim deep night into an early. Previous life did a sleep study on a (longer) night into day rotation - classic 18-30hr rest period but in fact it worked a treat - quick 4hrs when you arrive, force yourself up and enjoy a night based on you local TZ get up and fly home.
OK you do get two shots at a sleep but my (in-experienced) view would be the sleepy scientists would have a field day with that trip.
Looks good on paper I can roster anything job.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

JSS is rubbish, I didn’t vote for it, and those did are stupid for following BALPAs advice, give the promise of a free gift in their packet of cereals and pilots will vote for anything.


Total bollocks. Not why anyone voted for JSS. Feel free to rewrite history for your “I told you so moment” but it’s not why JSS is here. If you’re that clever sort our the pay mess will you? Nah, didn’t think so.

[bex88]

Snowflack: “those that promote themselves into a command?” Nobody promotes themselves. They get the opportunity to prove they can meet the required standard. It’s a good job somebody will take a SH command because just imagine how many course failures there would be if we were dragging long term SFO’s from LH to SH LHS against their will.

Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command

[Mylius]

Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command


All very well at an airline with one fleet where all the work is the same, of course....

[wiggy]

.Ryanair has it right. Seniority based on the day you join. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command upgrade. It would solve the problem we have regarding SH command

It depends what exactly you think the "problem" is but I suspect such a scheme might have consequences for those who join or who have joined BA hoping for a fast SH command

In passing just an observation that I think might be worth making to avoid any tendency to stereotype parts of the BA workforce:

Over the years at BA there have been more than a handful of "long term" Long Haul Co-pilots who have successfully gone to Short Haul for a command by way of a Command conversion.

[The Blu Riband]

Snowflack: “those that promote themselves into a command?”

You know what he meant; don't be difficult.

You joined BA late, got an early short haul command, and now can't stop moaning about the BA / seniority system.
Get over it!

[bex88]

The Blu Ridband. Wrong, wrong and the seniority system is fine as a concept but the delivery of it is not. Since you know me send me a email and I will happily meet you to give you the facts surrounding my position. You are probably misinformed as many are and I don’t blame you for that. Email is just the standard BA one.

wiggy, quite correct. It is one of the most challenging courses RHS LH to LHS SH. If you are not committed to it, it will be a much greater ask than it is. It’s the attitude of guys I have flown with that gets me. The system as I said is fine but the attitude of a minority shows a lack of compassion or empathy and in some cases a spiteful enjoyment. Re reading I should have worded my point better.

[RexBanner]

No more Short Haul courses until the end of the summer schedule according to latest Comms on yammer.

[Stall-turn-Go]

Hi All,
I’ve been in the BA holdpool for just over 2 months now. Slightly unexpected as we were told during the process that the holdpool was pretty much non-existent and to expect to be called up very quickly. Anyone else been waiting that long, or would anyone that’s recently received an offer be able to let me know how long they were waiting before it came?
cheers

[3Greens]

Hi All,
I’ve been in the BA holdpool for just over 2 months now. Slightly unexpected as we were told during the process that the holdpool was pretty much non-existent and to expect to be called up very quickly. Anyone else been waiting that long, or would anyone that’s recently received an offer be able to let me know how long they were waiting before it came?
cheers
I don’t think the new chap in recruitment and manpower planning has a clue what is going on. Granted he’s been chucked in at the deep end with a new team, but he’s sent pilots out of seniority for commands, which will cost tens of thousands in pass over pay, and there just isn’t enough external applicants coming in. Heard it on good authority this week that pilots aren’t turning up for their courses. One chap went to TUI on the 787 this week instead of BA 320.

[Hank Moody]

TUI is probably the best at the moment.

Unless you’re French or Dutch. KLM pay a massive bonus if TR on joining

I don’t know what kind of TR bonus you’re talking about regarding KLM.
-we do get a compensation if we still have a pilot loan on the date of joining.
-this year is the last year we get a compensation for slashing klms pension contribution to the half. For the last four years. Next year back to normal pension contribution(which is much better than the compensation)

[The Foss]

TUI is probably the best at the moment.

Unless you’re French or Dutch. KLM pay a massive bonus if TR on joining

I wouldn’t think so - there’s people leaving TUI after less than a year to join as type rated 787 at BA. Came across one who’d left tui for a320 as well. Be surprised if any going the other way.

[SEBBES]

I wouldn’t think so - there’s people leaving TUI after less than a year to join as type rated 787 at BA. Came across one who’d left tui for a320 as well. Be surprised if any going the other way.

Just to play devils advocate, on my TUI initials course, 3 of the 12 had turned down courses at BA. 2 of them offered 787 and the other, 320. All opting for TUI 737 instead.

[Enzo999]

To be fair I don’t know any moving either way but rosters I have seen plus remuneration, TUI is not bad.

How many FOs year 1 or 2 at BA grossing 90k?

I know of 3 at TUI from the 6 I personally know.


Please give details? I would say something has gone badly wrong with TUIs staffing levels if they are giving every new FO in the business 3 day off working payments a month, even more remarkable considering the seasonality issue of their business.

[SEBBES]

I'd say 600 hours quoted above as being a slight exaggeration. At least in my experience - on the 73 fleet my average was around 700 - which when you consider for the winter period I averaged 4/5 flights (even as little as 1 flight) per month, it gives a taste of how busy the summer can be.
the figures quoted above in regards to FOs earning potential within TUI can also be true, but is by no means guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the crewing levels being wrong though. As a charter airline, it has to be adaptable, and therefore crewing at around 80% and offering considerable remuneration to pilots willing to work on days off, is actually cheaper in the long run than having a surplus of pilots and paying for pensions, national insurance, etc for the next however many years. Most duties attract 2 WDO payments, some even 3 - so its quickly quite easy to see how 90k is achievable if 1. The opportunity to work on days off is there, and 2. You are willing to be flexible.

[wiggy]

Reading some off the above I'm beginning to understand and believe some of the rumours going around that people haven't been turning up for courses and perhaps have headed elsewhere...:oh:

[clamchowder]

I'd say 600 hours quoted above as being a slight exaggeration. At least in my experience - on the 73 fleet my average was around 700 - which when you consider for the winter period I averaged 4/5 flights (even as little as 1 flight) per month, it gives a taste of how busy the summer can be.
the figures quoted above in regards to FOs earning potential within TUI can also be true, but is by no means guaranteed. It has nothing to do with the crewing levels being wrong though. As a charter airline, it has to be adaptable, and therefore crewing at around 80% and offering considerable remuneration to pilots willing to work on days off, is actually cheaper in the long run than having a surplus of pilots and paying for pensions, national insurance, etc for the next however many years. Most duties attract 2 WDO payments, some even 3 - so its quickly quite easy to see how 90k is achievable if 1. The opportunity to work on days off is there, and 2. You are willing to be flexible.

I'm sure there is an obvious reason, but why haven't BA adopted this style? Company reduces costs + pilots make more = winwin?

[Twiglet1]

Please give details? I would say something has gone badly wrong with TUIs staffing levels if they are giving every new FO in the business 3 day off working payments a month, even more remarkable considering the seasonality issue of their business.

Enzo999
Your obviously new to the business, Tui/Thomson have adopted this process since Pontius was a Pilot - well for at least 20 years I imagine.
They were the first Airline to work out to cover 3 flights a day you need 3 standby crews. Or, just 1 Pilot on a day off payment. 1 or even 3 days off payments is also cheaper than a sub charter - Simples and keeps the Nigels happy

[Twiglet1]

I'm sure there is an obvious reason, but why haven't BA adopted this style? Company reduces costs + pilots make more = winwin?

Not sure it would work at BA but you have to remember you need to get the Accountable Manager and bean counters to sign up for it - those costly, moaning Nigel's should be on min days off mentality rules ok. You also have to remember eventually the tax man will get more greedy so there becomes a point when the reward is reduced,
In the old days of CAP371 it didn't take much for crews to work out if they flew on 2 days off the regs would likely mean they would get another 1-2 days off - result. Not so much under EASA FTL however tut tut.

[Tricia Takanawa]

BA do basically use the same model. Only there is a significant difference in reward. Less than 25% bonus over normal hourly rate. And people lap it up as soon as its available. Factor in no pension contributions on the above, and BA basically get the additional work covered for the standard hourly rate.

[Riskybis]

Yeah BAs day off payments were awful !

[hans brinker]

BA do basically use the same model. Only there is a significant difference in reward. Less than 25% bonus over normal hourly rate. And people lap it up as soon as its available. Factor in no pension contributions on the above, and BA basically get the additional work covered for the standard hourly rate.

USA:
Flying on day off: 200% (and sometimes more because last minute duties generally have deadheads attached that I don't have to do as a commuter. just got 20 hours of pay to work a 4 hour flight, I was gone from home 15 hours.) There is absolutely no chance anybody here would take a last minute assignment for 25%-115%pension=10%extra.

[Mrglass]

Could any kind soul decode the following gray / amber tiles from a crewlink roster:

CL
LA
LB
WR
BW
SW
S2, S3, S4, S5
NA
DD
ZZ
RP
PR
PL
PD
GT
GD
LFS
FDO
HSB

Also, looking at a roster (screenshot I took from a roadshow), how can you tell if it's 747, 777, 787 etc? Are the aircraft number coded? Where do I look?

Thank you.

[99jolegg]

CL - compassionate leave
LA - annual leave with wraparound days after x4
LB - annual leave with wraparound days before x3
WR - wrap around days off (workable)
BW - bank withdrawal
SW - not sure off the top of my head
S2, S3, S4, S5 - simulator. The number refers to the time slot. I2, I3, I4, I5 would refer to the instructor’s roster.
NA - non-assignable day associated with DD usually
DD - duty free week associated with NA day at the beginning. Can be worked in if desired.
ZZ - break, usually to denote days off after a trip on reserve
RP - reserve period
PR - protected day off, for a variety of reasons
PL - not sure EDIT: paternity leave
PD - part-time days off
GT - ground training e.g. SEP
GD - ground duty
LFS - Leading Flight Safety course
FDO - fixed days off associated with a reserve period
HSB - HSB associated with a reserve period

Depending on the roster format you’re looking at but you can usually tell by the destinations.

[wiggy]

Don’t know what SW is either but just a health warning that it would be best to be cautious of drawing too many conclusions if the rosters in question are from prior to Jan 19.

[WhatTheDeuce]

SW means the trip was swapped in some way.

[Ghostwing]

Anyone with an idea on when DEP might/will reopen?

[Tay Cough]

If I was a betting man, fairly shortly for shorthaul....:}

[Jumbo2]

If I was a betting man, fairly shortly for shorthaul....:}

we are not short of pilots, it’s our roster bidding which is causing the problem 😉

[Jumbo2]

O no, sorry, that doesn’t work anymore and was the old bidline answer.

Under JSS the questions about the very high level of global constraints just get ignored 😉

[GS-Alpha]

I am curious to see what will happen when global constraints and crew repair goes senior in a few months time. At the moment the junior are being worked hard as a result of those mechanisms, but when they become hours restricted, GC and CR will have to go much further up the seniority!

[The Blu Riband]

schadenfreude?

[Jumbo2]

I am curious to see what will happen when global constraints and crew repair goes senior in a few months time. At the moment the junior are being worked hard as a result of those mechanisms, but when they become hours restricted, GC and CR will have to go much further up the seniority!

Goes further up the seniority?!? Looking at Yammer and the BALPA forum it has already hit <25% from the top on the A320 and B777 fleets. I don't think the senior guys are doing any less hours then the Junior guys since JSS, the problem with JSS is unlike under bidline, if a fleet is short of pilots the whole fleet of pilots will get hit by Global Constraints, while JSS will still make sure there is barely any uncovered work.

[RexBanner]

Concur with Wiggy, you want to take any potential Long Haul roster you have been shown on a roadshow with a huge pinch of salt. I’m taking it they haven’t been advertising the most recent JSS rosters for those junior particularly on the 777 & 747 fleets.

[king surf]

Interesting that there are more people leaving with seniority numbers above 3500 than those naturally reaching retirement date some with numbers above 4300.
i think JSS has been a game changer for many and looking at junior rosters they look unsustainable in the long term.
cant believe it was voted for.

[GS-Alpha]

It is very easy to understand why it was voted in - BALPA recommended it. Within BA, pretty much all ballots go the way BALPA recommends. A very large proportion of the membership cannot even be bothered to read the detail of what they are voting for.

I agree with your point about the sustainability of rosters at the bottom of JSS. BALPA are desperately tweaking inhibitors in an attempt to find a solution which is not as drastic as rolling seniority, but it has not really worked so far. I think the time will come where they have to at least vary the block of seniority affected by global constraints and crew repair. Hitting the same people over and over and over with extra work is not going to be tolerated in the long term. In the past, extra work was given to those who were not working so hard. With JSS, extra work is going to those at the bottom until they can work no harder, regardless of how hard the senior guys are working. That is inefficient rostering and will lead to sickness at the bottom, which will lead to more inefficiency. BA will not accept that and will demand solutions.

[king surf]

Ai I said before time will tell but I think BA need to address JSS issues sooner rather than later. It might work for those at the top but falls way short of giving a junior pilot a reasonable roster.

[Daddy Fantastic]

What are the chances of a new hire with enough time for upgrade on the A320 getting LHR instead of LGW purely for the fact they could possibly be commuting so would prefer tours instead of coming back most nights like I believe is what happens at LGW.

Also what are pilots likely to end up on that are accepted in the DEP program? Is there room to negotiate which fleet you would like. I would prefer 320 to long haul as a commuter.

Im only going on my experience which is 6000 hours and 3000 plus jet hours, 2000 plus twin turboprop hours.

Any input is much appreciated.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Anyone know what the constraints are for reapplication? Receiving mixed messages. Thank you.

If you have taken the Maths/Verbal Reasoning/Aptitude tests then its 12 months from then - if you didn't get that far then its 6 months....

[737275]

Can anyone shed some light on the reapplication process? I’m just coming up on a year since an unsuccessful assesment, and hoping to re apply. Dose the website just free you up to reapply, or is there something else that needs to be done. Any info appreciated.

[rotordisk]

I applied in December but I didn't get a reply.. It says that I can't apply now..

[CXKA]

I applied in December but I didn't get a reply.. It says that I can't apply now..

You should only have a 12 month embargo if you attended one of the stages at Waterside or the Sim Centre and were not successful, the clock starts I believe is from the date of your last stage.

Best of luck

[red9]

I heard there has been some mass resignations on B777 recently ?

[Cattivo]

CL - compassionate leave
LA - annual leave with wraparound days after x4
LB - annual leave with wraparound days before x3
WR - wrap around days off (workable)
BW - bank withdrawal
SW - not sure off the top of my head
S2, S3, S4, S5 - simulator. The number refers to the time slot. I2, I3, I4, I5 would refer to the instructor’s roster.
NA - non-assignable day associated with DD usually
DD - duty free week associated with NA day at the beginning. Can be worked in if desired.
ZZ - break, usually to denote days off after a trip on reserve
RP - reserve period
PR - protected day off, for a variety of reasons
PL - not sure EDIT: paternity leave
PD - part-time days off
GT - ground training e.g. SEP
GD - ground duty
LFS - Leading Flight Safety course
FDO - fixed days off associated with a reserve period
HSB - HSB associated with a reserve period

Depending on the roster format you’re looking at but you can usually tell by the destinations.

SW = Swap
PL = Parental Leave ie annual allowance, unpaid

[rotordisk]

You should only have a 12 month embargo if you attended one of the stages at Waterside or the Sim Centre and were not successful, the clock starts I believe is from the date of your last stage.

Best of luck

I didn’t attend any stage and I did not even get a response.
The only thing I got was a confirmation that my application had been submitted.

[Jumbo2]

I didn’t attend any stage and I did not even get a response.
The only thing I got was a confirmation that my application had been submitted.

It might be your application is still in the pipeline to be reviewed. Maybe send recruitment an email or give them a ring. They are a really friendly bunch who are very helpful and understanding.

[rotordisk]

It might be your application is still in the pipeline to be reviewed. Maybe send recruitment an email or give them a ring. They are a really friendly bunch who are very helpful and understanding.

thanks
Do you know what the application status should say when I have been rejected? On the BA job website.

[TheAirMission]

Recruitment automatic email FAQs:

I was unsuccessful at a previous British Airways recruitment application, when can I reapply?

If you had stumbled at the initial online application screening stage, you would be eligible to apply again after 6 months. If you attended Waterside for any of the subsequent selection stages, the wait is 12 months from the date of testing, or 6 months from any other stage of application whichever is the greater.

[Mrglass]

Maybe not the ideal thread for this queation, but how will the LHR ULEZ affect BA employees and their ability to park at LHR?

Are BA employees essentially going to have to pay to go to work and park in a private vehicle?

Has this issue been raised internally or by the Union?

Just curious.

Thanks.

[wiggy]

I think you are correct AH....Heathrow media statement here. (http://mediacentre.heathrow.com/pressrelease/details/81/Corporate-operational-24/11116)

As I understand it from other sources those working at the airport will be exempt from the charges.

[Toolonginthisjob]

I heard there has been some mass resignations on B777 recently ?
You we’re misled.

[wiggy]

I heard there has been some mass resignations on B777 recently ?

As Toolong says it’s definitely “Fake News”, though in various forms it has been circulating for a few days. Don’t know why how or why it started and FWIW yours is the first version where it’s been tagged as being associated with a specific fleet.

[GS-Alpha]

I expect it is a case of Chinese whispers. There are more than a few people looking at other airlines and hoping to leave, which has then morphed into ‘mass resignations’.

[bananaman2]

I expect it is a case of Chinese whispers. There are more than a few people looking at other airlines and hoping to leave, which has then morphed into ‘mass resignations’.

Although you say, ‘Chinese whispers’/rumour or whatever... as someone who has always hoped, considered, been intrigued with working for their national carrier... where would a 777 bod (I accept it was mentioned the rumour was tagged to 777) be potentially looking to go? I get the debate on the 320 vs Easy DEC... but for a longhaul guy/gal who’s living at home you take the rough with the smooth, generally living with the niggles that every company has (there is no perfect company). Not much else going on longhaul in the UK at the moment or is there - Virgin, TUI? Commuting contract overseas? or are these folks young, super junior and being screwed by the bidding system and looking to earn a few bucks wherever they can get it?

[Joe le Taxi]

I hear it can reach 6 trips per month on the 777. That's more than a niggle - I used to just about cope with four, 5 would wipe me out, but six!!! That's really really unhealthy, to the extent I would personally quit flying if I couldn't find something else less damaging.

[Busdriver01]

I’m constantly amazed by the way this industry works. In many ways it’s very safe - we learn from our past and are constantly striving to improve. Why, then, has the industry allowed pilot (and presumably cabin crew) rostering to get to the stage where you are flying 6 long haul trips per month. That HAS to be dangerous.

Will it take a catastrophic hull loss attributed entirely to roster induced fatigue before the industry wakes up and sees how absurd things are getting?

[Captainrawdata]

Hello,
I'm aware this thread had been going for a while and Ive looked over thtjs thread for the last while.

Is there any recommendations on preparing for the initial stage. On previous attempts I always thought I had prepared enough but apparently not.

thanks in advance

[Tay Cough]

...where would a 777 bod (I accept it was mentioned the rumour was tagged to 777) be potentially looking to go?


If the rumour was to be believed, the golf course or the Sunseeker.

[FACoff]

Will it take a catastrophic hull loss attributed entirely to roster induced fatigue before the industry wakes up and sees how absurd things are getting?



Even if that were to happen, you can guarantee that airlines would simply find a way of pinning the blame on the pilot for reporting for work fatigued in the first place. It's all over the manuals - "pilots should not operate if they suspect they are fatigued". Clearly it's written with about as much sincerity as BA's latest box-ticking email on mental health, but it's something they'll still gladly point to in the event of any fatigue related incident.

Which is why we continue to be our own worst enemy. In BA especially, I have been astounded at how many people relentlessly soldier on through some of the most appalling roster sequences I've ever seen (6/1 and repeat on SH), as if their own health is irrelevant and reporting fatigued isn't even an option. Perhaps if more people told the company where to shove it, things would eventually change - working everyone to the bone would then become counter productive. I've not been in BA long, but I myself have already had far more roster-induced sickness here than my previous airline. The problem however is encouraging more people to say enough is enough. BA have played a blinder by instilling a culture of fear that seemingly dissuades people from doing so.

One would hope of course that eventually companies like BA will acknowledge (forcibly or otherwise) that rostering everyone to the extremes of EASA is unsustainable and ultimately costs more when people finally fall over later down the line. KLM certainly made a step in the right direction when they awarded their pilots a 4% pay increase along with a 4% reduction in work. It's a shame BA still have the blinkers so firmly in place.

[Thegreenmachine]

Even if that were to happen, you can guarantee that airlines would simply find a way of pinning the blame on the pilot for reporting for work fatigued in the first place. It's all over the manuals - "pilots should not operate if they suspect they are fatigued". Clearly it's written with about as much sincerity as BA's latest box-ticking email on mental health, but it's something they'll still gladly point to in the event of any fatigue related incident.

Which is why we continue to be our own worst enemy. In BA especially, I have been astounded at how many people relentlessly soldier on through some of the most appalling roster sequences I've ever seen (6/1 and repeat on SH), as if their own health is irrelevant and reporting fatigued isn't even an option. Perhaps if more people told the company where to shove it, things would eventually change - working everyone to the bone would then become counter productive. I've not been in BA long, but I myself have already had far more roster-induced sickness here than my previous airline. The problem however is encouraging more people to say enough is enough. BA have played a blinder by instilling a culture of fear that seemingly dissuades people from doing so.

One would hope of course that eventually companies like BA will acknowledge (forcibly or otherwise) that rostering everyone to the extremes of EASA is unsustainable and ultimately costs more when people finally fall over later down the line. KLM certainly made a step in the right direction when they awarded their pilots a 4% pay increase along with a 4% reduction in work. It's a shame BA still have the blinkers so firmly in place.

Well said. Also a recent new joiner and have noticed the same mentality of refusing to report fatigued. Some people will work any roster at all and still report.

[VinRouge]

Well said. Also a recent new joiner and have noticed the same mentality of refusing to report fatigued. Some people will work any roster at all and still report.

Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?

[wiggy]

Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?

Partly that, though that is something that the somewhat controversial JSS inhibitors are meant to mitigate by putting a limit on credit dense trips per individual per month.. :bored:,

As for the resistance to “going fatigued” which has been noted, I think a lot of that is down to historic reasons:

Certainly “in the old days” where your working hours were (possibly, certainly in Long Haul on some fleets) much more likely to be capped by time away from base (I.e. TAFB/4) than flying hours there was a mindset that “no-one gets fatigued under Bidline”/“no-one gets fatigued at BA”. Of course rostering has morphed over the years but that attitude is still very much entrenched in the institutional memory. It is certainly interesting to hear many of the newer DEPs explain how relatively straightforward it was to declare fatigue at their previous operator vs. how difficult it can appear to be at BA.

[VinRouge]

Partly that, though that is something that the somewhat controversial JSS inhibitors are meant to mitigate by putting a limit on credit dense trips per individual per month.. :bored:,





Not sure how limiting to 3 ABV and 3 JFK is supposed to mitigate fatigue though. Needs to be done by limiting the max number of trips operating in the WOCL if fatigue were the target... EASA is unrealistically too focused upon time zone changes that have little to nil effect on fatigue with the time spent away.

[wiggy]

Not sure how limiting to 3 ABV and 3 JFK is supposed to mitigate fatigue though.

True...but then again there are some contrary so and so’s around and one person’s bad JFK is another persons good one..

Needs to be done by limiting the max number of trips operating in the WOCL if fatigue were the target

Looking at the Long Haul schedules I’d be seriously impressed if somebody can find a way of doing that...apart from the few oddballs you almost always end up operating in the WOCL at some point.

apart from the EASA is unrealistically too focused upon time zone changes that have little to nil effect on fatigue with the time spent away.

Agreed.

[pudoc]

To add some perspective to how fatigue is managed at 2 other UK airlines I've worked for.

Call crewing.

"Im fatigued for my duty"
"Ok I'll take you off"
"Thanks bye"

And you'd never hear about it again from anyone. No follow up phone call or email. All you would have to do is fill in a fatigue questionnaire as to what caused your fatigue. And anything from jet lag, to a night flight to a screaming baby at home are perfectly acceptable reasons. In fact, you're completely untouchable when you go fatigued. More so than if you call sick.

[VinRouge]

Looking at the Long Haul schedules I’d be seriously impressed if somebody can find a way of doing that...apart from the few oddballs you almost always end up operating in the WOCL at some point.


you do, but my point is if you end up doing 6 2 man low credit trips as opposed to 4x 3/4 man, with 4-6 hours in the bunk and 3 Local nights rest trips when you get back, one is not sustainable long term and the other one is. Guess which trips filter to the bottom.

That said, the culture imho is very different to the one represented above. I am curious to see if views are based upon actual bad experience or perception of how one would be treated. I’ve not heard bad things from people who have needed to take a little recovery time, it’s a shame those views are not represented above.

[PPRuNeUser0204]

To add some perspective to how fatigue is managed at 2 other UK airlines I've worked for.

Call crewing.

"Im fatigued for my duty"
"Ok I'll take you off"
"Thanks bye"

And you'd never hear about it again from anyone. No follow up phone call or email. All you would have to do is fill in a fatigue questionnaire as to what caused your fatigue. And anything from jet lag, to a night flight to a screaming baby at home are perfectly acceptable reasons. In fact, you're completely untouchable when you go fatigued. More so than if you call sick.

What is the procedure at BA?

[Mylius]

In my experience it’s basically the same. Contrary to popular belief BA won’t hunt you down if you report fatigued. I’ve had nothing but support when I’ve called in fatigued and all they’ve asked me to do is fill in an ASR with “Fatigue Report” in the title and let them know when I’m happy to resume my roster.

[Hotel Mode]

In my experience it’s basically the same. Contrary to popular belief BA won’t hunt you down if you report fatigued. I’ve had nothing but support when I’ve called in fatigued and all they’ve asked me to do is fill in an ASR with “Fatigue Report” in the title and let them know when I’m happy to resume my roster.


Agreed. Never any come back in my experience, although, its worth checking the ASR once its been through the system to check they haven't tried to reclassify it as unrested or sickness.

[hunterboy]

Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Having said that, I understand that on not a few occasions, fatigued pilots were subsequently questioned why they had logged onto crewlink and emaestro in the run up to calling in fatigued. That to me shows a complete unawareness of the issue. If I was to publish the DFCM’s name I’d probably get banned, but would have several thousand pilots nodding in recognition.



hmmmm...

When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation.

What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems.

Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all.

[Thegreenmachine]

Is it not a problem partially of the workforces making though? If you have huge constraints placed on rostering by a seniority based system that has junior guys picking up multiple low credit trips, because those above them are picking out the highly credit dense stuff, leaving the scraps at the bottom?

Yes that's a very valid point. However the ultimate responsibility lies with the individual. That's what I find staggering, the reluctance of the individual to report fatigued.

​

[Twiglet1]

hmmmm...

When I went fatigued it was very easy and dealt with by one of our fantastic DFCMs (most of them are bloody good in my experience). I apologised and felt (wrongly I guess) as though I'd let the company down or dropped them in it some how to cover my roster. I was very impressed at the response I received and reassured that this was a daily occurrence and an extremely regular conversation.

What wasn't so clever was the DFCM (no names mentioned) who picked it up a day or so later and explained how I'm fine now I've had 24 hours at home and would likely be ready for work as they're very short of FO's. When I said no I was subtly interrogated on my drives to work, rest management / arrangements between day trips and home life situation. It was disappointing to say the least when I was then asked at the end of the call to put it all in writing via email. Gave them both barrels on my email but smelt a rat.....so when I was back in I had a look in the system audit trail to find that my fatigue had been re classified. Never got to the bottom of what to but I insisted it was changed back. The trail went cold but suspect it was re categorised. Shame really, it's just masking the problems.

Overall, a very very good experience initially but the follow up and company audit trail wasn't good at all.

My advice when calling in fatigued is either call your Manager first (or immediately after a call to Crewing) and ideally don't email him. Why call your Manager? Firstly why not and secondly it means your being open and honest.
One of the two UK AOC's with approved FRMS now get a sleep scientist (who has done work for AOC's and BALPA to maintain a good balance) to give "science of sleep" training to all their Crew, Crewing staff etc. It might help if BA put some of their Pilot Managers in touch?

[red9]

As Toolong says it’s definitely “Fake News”, though in various forms it has been circulating for a few days. Don’t know why how or why it started and FWIW yours is the first version where it’s been tagged as being associated with a specific fleet.

For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc

[Jumbo2]

For resignations read resignations in order to take early retirement if you wish. Not to move to another company. Just people disillusioned with JSS / Pensions / Morale etc

Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.

[Mylius]

Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.

Correct. I’ve counted 10 777 resignations so far this year including a few FOs. For comparison that’s less than 1% of the fleet establishment.

[RHS]

Don't believe all the rumours, the retirees are at the moment pretty much only 65 year olds pilots, a few from within the bubble who moved to an airline up North and around 20 junior pilots who joined KLM and Aer Lingus.

Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”.

Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now.

[Busdriver01]

Not true, I personally know of 3 in the Jet 2 hold pool (DEPs last 5 years mix of LHS/RHS), one to a private jet operator, one in the TUI hold pool and one in the Easy hold pool for DEC. Then there’s the two who left in January to Virgin off the 787, plus another who’s gone back to Ryanair. BA is 100% now a “if you’re from the SE and it suits your lifestyle”.

Someone will disagree with me, but hey ho, before I’m called massively negative, right now I quite like it, the pay cheque is regular and stable, my roster doesn’t change and I have decent lifestyle control, would I recommend you join the bottom of any fleet on JSS, unless you’re 24 and single, or a realist who knows the score and is willing to put years in before you see fruits? Absolutely not. Even then, ask me in another five years time, if current trajectories of our T&Cs being assaulted continues, I probably wouldn’t recommend it full stop. Very very sad to have that as my honest opinion right now.

My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you.

My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again?

[Joe le Taxi]

The insanity of seniority!

[bringbackthe80s]

The solution to this is to stay single!

[hunterboy]

How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?

[VJW]

How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?

They pay a lot more :/
I don’t think BA has trouble getting people through the door mind you. The pass rate in their assessments can only be about 20% max maybe from start to finish...

[BeeSevenSevenDoubleU]

Hi Guys and Gals

If anyone could assist in providing some info I'd be most grateful.

I'm a South African with British Passport (have lived in UK before), busy with my EASA ATPL (yes, I know the ins and outs with Brexit).

Living in SA I really don't know a hell of a lot about BA in terms of what fleet you get put on, LH or SH, career progression and roster patterns, as well as the ability to commute and even what starting pay is,
Unfortunately I don't know anyone at BA so figured this is best place to ask.

Not quite sure what direction SA is going at the moment so thought it best to have a plan B in case things really go to the dogs! (seems like they are)

Thank you!

[Busdriver01]

I understand there’s a certain amount of “doing your time” / earning your command etc but I struggle to see how one would enjoy the early years of their command having their well established home life totally ruined. Or am I missing something? Are the command lines somehow better?

Edit: obviously I’m talking about the situation where you join RHS long haul, and wait the full time to swap to LHS. I suppose swapping to the 320 would improve things a bit with all the junior commands recently.

[RHS]

My query here is that even for a 24 year old with no real commitments (other than the fact most of their friends will likely work normal mon-fri jobs, which makes socialising with them a nightmare), is JSS in 17 years time (or whatever roster system is in place) going to be very desirable as a new captain? Ie you spend 5-10 years doing the rubbish lines because you’re junior, the enjoy the next half a decade at the top of the FO list for your fleet, picking and choosing the trips you want and not working weekends. You’re ready to take your command, age roughly 40 (which is when you more than likely will have commitments) and then just like that, you’re the most junior again. It takes until you’re 50 to regain any sort of relative seniority, all the while family are left for another weekend without you.

My question being will the introduction if this system / general assault in Ts+Cs result in more career SFOs who refuse to be junior again?

Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS.

JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more.

In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare.

All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours.

[Doug E Style]

I don’t know if this information is of any use but purely as a point of interest, in the last seven years, recruitment (and the bmi takeover) has been such that just over one third of BA pilots today have been in the company for seven years or less. If you’d joined straight after the takeover, this is where you could be today in approximate percentage terms from the top of each list:
Gatwick Airbus: Captain 65%, FO <5%
Heathrow Airbus: Captain 95%, FO 10-15%
747 FO 50-55%
777 FO 65-70%
787 FO 60-65%
A380 FO 80-85%
As the A350 is a new, and growing, fleet no meaningful data will be available for quite some time. This information is a statistical snapshot and should not be taken to mean that if you join now, this is what you can achieve in seven years.

[Heisenb3rg]

Certainly career SFO is what I’m thinking of doing. I have the advantage that I was able to join young from elsewhere. But yes, realistically I’ll still be 40 odd by the time I’m senior enough for any sort of lifestyle in the LHS.

JSS has changed things in ways I don’t think as yet have been quite understood. Someone else points out US majors, but it’s a level playing field in that they are all seniority driven, they generally work less (certainly not 6x LH trips a month) which negates some of the negatives of juniority as at least you have a fair amount of time at home, and are paid a lot more.

In the UK that certainly isn’t the case. Right now in BA it’s the perfect storm. We have a seniority driven system unlike any other carrier, working to the absolute limits of both industrial and legal rules, which makes the lifestyle pretty tough even for the most senior, combine that with juniority and it’s a nightmare.

All the while actually not being paid anywhere near what other even European legacy carriers earn never mind Easy/Ryr/TUI/Jet2 all paying their SH skippers more than the majority of ours.

I know this will probably have been asked a million times and depends on personal circumstances / desires etc etc etc but I find myself at a bit of a crossroads and I’m not sure what to do.

I fly for a British loco, A320, which has reasonable financial security so long term will likely survive. I’m 23 and have an ATPL. Command at my current job could be as early as 2.5/3 years from now - 26 years old. If that happens I’ll be earning £140k.

On one hand I think that opportunity is too good to miss - get all of my debt paid off, buy a house and be mortgage free relatively early in in life. Then the opportunity to go part time is readily available, just in time for the midlife crisis. On the other hand I think maybe I shouldn’t get suckered in by the golden handcuffs - I’m young and single and should probably go and try long haul (if I can get in of course).


What are peoples thoughts? Accept that for the next 10 years I’d be living a junior long haul life, then be senior, then get command and be junior again, and not earn as much in the process, (also who knows what long haul lifestyle will actually be like in 15 years time - think min rest down route everywhere...) or take the golden handcuffs, earn far more for the next 18 years (I’ve done the numbers, 18 years is the minimum for BA to overtake where I am atm) and then go part time and enjoy life with my family, seeing the world in my own time with the people I want to?

[bringbackthe80s]

You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with!

[Heisenb3rg]

You’re planning waaay to far ahead. One thing is for sure, if I was to do the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years I would not be a happy captain to fly with!

The difficulty is that this decision ultimately decides how the rest of my career (Read: life) pans out. Though I infer that you mean staying at my current loco would be to do “the exact same thing for the next 20/30 years”?

[MikeAlpha320]

Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.

The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June.

Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH.

Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO)

[Tay Cough]

You need to be about a third of the way up the list on any fleet to start having reasonable control (i.e. days off or trips of choice, not both).

[Check Airman]

How do the pilots in US and other airlines that use seniority rostering systems manage to recruit pilots?

Our pay system is totally unlike the (more or less) flat salary that you'd get at BA. That leads to different work rules. Let's say I'm on a narrowbody, and have 4 trips this month, each 4 days long. If staffing permits, I can drop any of those trips. With each dropped trip, my pay goes down by 25%. If I'd still like to make that money, I can find other higher value trips so that my pay is restored.

Depending on a number of factors (seniority being paramount among them), you can end the month with no pay credit, or up to triple your monthly guarantee. Even within a fleet, there's significant variation in the pay and time off that each pilot gets, which will depend on his/her goals for the month.

[Jumbo2]

Stay at EZY if they offer you SH. Its not worth 'getting on the seniority list'. Im 80ish percent on the 777 list but doesn't mean anything for at least another 4 years. Thats assuming I get LH when my freeze up- which there is no guarantee of- especially given number of DEP LH recently. Like you say - what will LH look like in 6/7/8 years when you get there. If the hotels they are forcing on us are any indication, its not very nice.

The lifestyle is better at EZY, I had more days off, enjoyed it more and do wish I had stayed. I made the decision to accept SH, Ive learnt to live with it and will stay put unless I can find a better option. Call their bluff, they realise nobody wants SH, so are trying to offer to anyone they can to get bums on seats. We are desperately short already and it's only June.

Don't come here for SH, you will regret it. BA are years behind on what is acceptable rostering- single days off, six day blocks e.t.c and you'll be kicking yourself for not waiting maybe another year or two (if it came to having to re-apply) for LH.

Get a command, enjoy the cash. If LH comes your way, go for it. Friends that have gotten DEP LH love it. Don't give up orange life for BA short haul. Not worth it. (IMHO)

Funny that is. Know of lots of pilots in the top 40% on the SH Airbus list who will have the opportunity to go LH next year since their engagement freeze is over and have decided not to bid in this years PRIAM bid. All of them wanted to go LH as soon as possible when they joined BA with 1000's of hours in previous airlines. Now they have the chance to go LH they elect to stay for a bit longer on SH while more new people get recruited onto LH and therefor when they do jump get more seniority and therefor say about their rosters.

For me personally the good thing about BA is that there is no fixed roster pattern and you can do with your roster what you prefer. I like to work long blocks with little days off in between so in return I get longer blocks off as well. Saying BA is lightyears behind with rostering is a bit like the discussion on Yammer where a FO had a massive go at crew food and particularly the cold breakfast on SH which he deemed an inappropriate breakfast because HE didn't like it.