BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Phantom4]

LH suitability is your ability to demonstrate effectively that you can operate the sim which in this case is 744 to a high standard.By this I mean close to LPC standard.It used to be 2000hrs but the process has evolved.
The assessor has to ask himself will the candidate be able to cope with maybe just two or three landings a month with extremes of weather possible.If in doubt revert to SH until they have built up enough competency to cope with the aforementioned scenario.

[capt.sparrow]

LH suitability is your ability to demonstrate effectively that you can operate the sim which in this case is 744 to a high standard.By this I mean close to LPC standard.It used to be 2000hrs but the process has evolved.
The assessor has to ask himself will the candidate be able to cope with maybe just two or three landings a month with extremes of weather possible.If in doubt revert to SH until they have built up enough competency to cope with the aforementioned scenario.

Pretty much as I saw it. In fact in the sim brief the instructor asked what rumours we had heard about the session. To clear it up he said you have to prove you will not be a financial liability to BA and pass the TR and line training without fuss. Secondly, do you have the ability to handle a heavy off the bat (based on virtually no candidate arrives with 747 experience). If you check the LH box your hold pool says hold pool, if you don't it says A320 hold pool (apparently).

[boeing89]

Pretty much as I saw it. In fact in the sim brief the instructor asked what rumours we had heard about the session. To clear it up he said you have to prove you will not be a financial liability to BA and pass the TR and line training without fuss. Secondly, do you have the ability to handle a heavy off the bat (based on virtually no candidate arrives with 747 experience). If you check the LH box your hold pool says hold pool, if you don't it says A320 hold pool (apparently).

I can maybe add a bit to this...I was told by a member of the HR team that I’d had the suitable for LH box ticked but, due to my low total hours (around 600 at the time of the assessment, LH wasn’t an option at this stage.

[kookiesandkreme]

Has anyone without a 320 rating been called for a SH start yet? Or should those of us that are not rated expect to swim a little longer?
Did you get a start date at all?

[capt.sparrow]

I got A320 starting April. Not typed and in the pool since Sept.

[boeing89]

Did you get a start date at all?

Yes I have a start date now - was swimming for around 7 months in total.

[Mister Geezer]

Whilst I am unaware of the criteria that are used to determine if they can shorten a type rating course based on previous experience, those with widebody experience will probably be earmarked for a widebody type from the outset. This would reduce the availability of widebody courses for those without experience and who may be hoping for a course.

[Falling_Penguin]

Would any recent SH joiners be able to PM me some sample rosters they are working please. Received an offer and weighing up the pros and cons.

[aaa333]

How long do you have to decide whether to accept or not?

[Jumbo2]

Would any recent SH joiners be able to PM me some sample rosters they are working please. Received an offer and weighing up the pros and cons.

I can understand your question and it must be hard to weighing up the pro and cons. Before joining BA a while ago now I only worked for airlines were on Roster day you got given a computer generated roster and the only limited control you had on the roster was the ability to place a few requested days off on it every month.

Rosters in BA are completely different to what you probably experienced before. They are a very personal thing since we can put so many preferences into the system. Sharing a junior roster would therefor not be of any use since you are most likely unable to find out what the owner (once the roster is published in BA you become the owner of your roster, it therefor doesn't change anymore and is pretty much written in concrete, on average I had 1 roster change every other year) their rostering preferences are.

For example I'm relatively senior on SH and if you look at my roster you would probably be disgusted, I work pretty much every weekend. For me on the other hand weekends are not important and preventing them is not something I put in my preferences. The same goes for consecutive days off, early/lates, tours/daytrips, destinations, etc., etc.

With regards to SH rosters expect to have limited control on your roster the first year. If you want one weekend off and that is your only preference you probably get it. If you want a weekend off, LIS night stops, lates and only three day tours you will fail until you get around 50% seniority. At the current rate of recruitment getting to 50% seniority should take you about 2-3 years. What I'm trying to say with the previous example is the more senior you get the more picky you can get with your preferences till the point were you are no 1 on the list were you litterly write your own roster.

On LH you get the same, with the difference being that every unfrozen pilot who joined the company before you once they move to your LH fleet will slot in more senior to you. To get to 50% seniority on LH could therefore easily take up to 8-10 years.

[VinRouge]

On LH you get the same, with the difference being that every unfrozen pilot who joined the company before you once they move to your LH fleet will slot in more senior to you. To get to 50% seniority on LH could therefore easily take up to 8-10 years.

Depends on the luck of the draw. Looking at Priam, Some LH fleets will be seeing unprecedented fleet seniority moves in the next 12 months - bottom feeders moving >20% this year.

[Jumbo2]

Depends on the luck of the draw. Looking at Priam, Some LH fleets will be seeing unprecedented fleet seniority moves in the next 12 months - bottom feeders moving >20% this year.

True, but it will still take 8-10 years before you get to 50% on LH. Most likely you will lose some seniority after you gained some on the LH fleets with lots of SH pilots being un frozen now, we have the 74 fleet about to go into rundown so they will move to other LH fleets and if you join now you are behind a group of around 1500 pilots who joined in the last 5 years.

[VinRouge]

True, but it will still take 8-10 years before you get to 50% on LH. Most likely you will lose some seniority after you gained some on the LH fleets with lots of SH pilots being un frozen now, we have the 74 fleet about to go into rundown so they will move to other LH fleets and if you join now you are behind a group of around 1500 pilots who joined in the last 5 years.

im scheduled to be at 65-68% in 12 months, with less than 2 1/2 in...

Most guys seem to be picking to go to the newer types at the mo, particularly 350 and 787 (not forgetting -10 expansion) as both fleets are turbo junior on the FO list. There are also a lot who are leaving from the upper end, 12-15 years in, who want to grab command before their pensionable benefits get locked out from the changes. 777X is scheduled in too around when, 22-24, so wouldn’t mind betting A lot of 747 chaps go that way (shiny new jet)

Unusual times, it won’t continue, but for now I’m not complaining.

[Falling_Penguin]

Jumbo2 - Thanks for the reply, helpful stuff. :ok:

[Float15]

VinRouge, I'm sure I've just missed it but what are the pension changes you mention? Ta

[GS-Alpha]

VinRouge, I'm sure I've just missed it but what are the pension changes you mention? Ta
The closure of the NAPS final salary pension scheme a couple of years back, came with a transition period within which FOs could move to the equivalent captain pay scale for pension purposes. Commands must be obtained by the end of 2023 for this to happen. Many will have initially held out hope for a long haul command, but as 2023 draws closer the more junior ex NAPS FOs will likely give more consideration to taking short haul commands in order to lock in the NAPS pension uplift.

[kookiesandkreme]

The closure of the NAPS final salary pension scheme a couple of years back, came with a transition period within which FOs could move to the equivalent captain pay scale for pension purposes. Commands must be obtained by the end of 2023 for this to happen. Many will have initially held out hope for a long haul command, but as 2023 draws closer the more junior ex NAPS FOs will likely give more consideration to taking short haul commands in order to lock in the NAPS pension uplift.


Apologies if I’m completely off the ball, but would this apply to a new joiner?

[VinRouge]

Apologies if I’m completely off the ball, but would this apply to a new joiner?

It doesn’t directly, but impacts how quickly you will move up your fleet seniority list if you join Direct Longhaul. Which in turn impacts quality of life.

[kookiesandkreme]

It doesn’t directly, but impacts how quickly you will move up your fleet seniority list if you join Direct Longhaul. Which in turn impacts quality of life.
So final salary pension is dead and gone for new joiners? Sorry I know nothing about the pension scheme!

[GS-Alpha]

So final salary pension is dead and gone for new joiners? Sorry I know nothing about the pension scheme!
Final salary pension has been dead and gone for new joiners for well over a decade!

[kookiesandkreme]

Final salary pension has been dead and gone for new joiners for well over a decade!
haha I thought as much but saw it mentioned and I had a faint hope! :{

[Float15]

The closure of the NAPS final salary pension scheme a couple of years back, came with a transition period within which FOs could move to the equivalent captain pay scale for pension purposes. Commands must be obtained by the end of 2023 for this to happen. Many will have initially held out hope for a long haul command, but as 2023 draws closer the more junior ex NAPS FOs will likely give more consideration to taking short haul commands in order to lock in the NAPS pension uplift.


Roughly how many people are in that situation? It could have quite a dramatic effect at pushing out the time for SH command?

[thetimesreader84]

I don’t know the numbers, but I’ve heard anecdotally that a fair few of the Long Haul SFOs affected are looking at the type of SH roster they could get if they swapped seats and are deciding to take the pension hit.

Lowest LHR command this year was 3700-ish, which is what, 3 years in? Maybe 4? Gatwick went down to 4000 which is 18 months service. I think if the NAPS people were serious about going to SH those numbers would be higher - but maybe they will be next year.

All rumour & supposition, but that’s what this websites about isn’t it?

[GS-Alpha]

Please do not quote me on this but if memory serves me correctly, the figure was approximately 550 NAPS SFOs at the time of the scheme closure. If I had to guess what people are planning, I would say the bottom 100-150 NAPS SFOs will start including short haul commands in their bids for 2021 and 2022.

I know of several more senior non-NAPS SFOs who bid for short haul commands this year because they did not want to be blocked from doing so for the next three years during the predicted NAPS SFO rush.

[wiggy]

I don’t know the numbers, but I’ve heard anecdotally that a fair few of the Long Haul SFOs affected are looking at the type of SH roster they could get if they swapped seats and are deciding to take the pension hit.


Yep, "they" exist, I've flown with a couple of quite senior SFOs recently who have told me that they are staying put in the RHS until retirement and also explained the logic behind the decision - funnily in both cases it wasn't SH rosters that was the problem, it was the rosters that they would have moving RHS to LHS on Long haul that was the issue..

That said I have absolutely no idea how many more have the same plan across all the fleets.

[johnnyflyer]

If anyone has an upcoming Sim assessment booked and would be interested in pairing up for practice sim then please send me a PM! Cheers.

[Kibathepilot]

Hi everyone I am in the middle of the assesments at the moment, Just a random question that I was hoping someone may be able to shed a bit of light on.
I have a few holidays booked with family and friends for later this year that my current company has approved already.If I was to be succesful with the BA assesments
would they honor these holidays at all? I am willing to give up the holidays of course for the chance at the job and the type rating and all that but was just wondering
if there was any chance they would slot the initial training around it and just deduct the holiday days off me as usual. bit of a random one but hope I have explained it well.
thanks

[GS-Alpha]

Hi everyone I am in the middle of the assesments at the moment, Just a random question that I was hoping someone may be able to shed a bit of light on.
I have a few holidays booked with family and friends for later this year that my current company has approved already.If I was to be succesful with the BA assesments
would they honor these holidays at all? I am willing to give up the holidays of course for the chance at the job and the type rating and all that but was just wondering
if there was any chance they would slot the initial training around it and just deduct the holiday days off me as usual. bit of a random one but hope I have explained it well.
thanks
Hmm, I think you might need to lower your expectations of what employment by BA looks like.

[Kibathepilot]

Like I said not expecting them to honour it and would gladly drop the holiday to work for them.I only ask as where I live and work currently it is something that happens. thanks for the reply though....

[wiggy]

Hmm, I think you might need to lower your expectations of what employment by BA looks like.

Cruel but fair...:E

[MaverickPrime]

Does anyone know if there is a plan, or likelihood, that BA will run the scheme for newly qualified pilots this year?

[GS-Alpha]

Does anyone know if there is a plan, or likelihood, that BA will run the scheme for newly qualified pilots this year?
This is purely my opinion, but I suspect the recruitment plans for this year are gong to reduce significantly once the world realises this Coronavirus is already out of control. So I think that is unlikely MaverickPrime. I am expecting a severe cut in capacity with 747s leaving earlier than currently scheduled.

[VinRouge]

Does anyone know if there is a plan, or likelihood, that BA will run the scheme for newly qualified pilots this year?

Imho, yes, and a fair few of them too.

[RexBanner]

I suspect the recruitment plans for this year are gong to reduce significantly once the world realises this Coronavirus is already out of control..

back in the real world where more people die of flu than the Coronavirus I would imagine recruitment won’t alter much if at all.

[anson harris]

back in the real world where more people CURRENTLY die of flu than the Coronavirus I would imagine recruitment won’t alter much if at all.

There, I fixed it for you.

[wiggy]

The only given in all this is that retirements will continue at a decent rate. On one hand that might mean recruitment continues throughout the year, OTOH if this gets really nasty and the flying plan takes a big hit that attrition might simply mean those pilots already in BA get to keep their jobs.

As someone who is old enough to have has seen up close how BA responded to the impact of Gulf War 1, GW 2, 9/11 etc I will offer one bit of advice:

If you really want to leave wherever you are currently , and you really want to join BA then now is really really is not the time to finesse a joining date....... grab the first start date that BA put on the table.

[Phantom4]

Wiggy spot on as usual and has seen it all.
Take first offer and do not ruffle their feathers as they will just ring next person on the list.
’when can you start?’ 8.00am tomorrow is the response,not that hard.
FWIW BA May be shying away from MPL licences due lack of SA and teamwork skill set.

[Sleepybhudda]

Wiggy spot on as usual and has seen it all.
Take first offer and do not ruffle their feathers as they will just ring next person on the list.
’when can you start?’ 8.00am tomorrow is the response,not that hard.
FWIW BA May be shying away from MPL licences due lack of SA and teamwork skill set.

Surely thats their training providers fault for not teaching it properly. MPLs are bespoke courses to the sponsoring airlines needs. I would expect BA to tell the relevant ATO to rectify the deficiencies in training rather than just giving up on a chunky investment of time and money. No guarantees taking cadets from elsewhere will result in anything better.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Have the first of the BA MPL cadets started on the A320 yet? I thought the scheme opened in 2018. I know BA city flyer have had MPL cadets for a few years now.

[Yellow Sun]

As someone who is old enough to have has seen up close how BA responded to the impact of Gulf War 1, GW 2, 9/11 etc I will offer one bit of advice:

If you really want to leave wherever you are currently , and you really want to join BA then now is really really is not the time to finesse a joining date....... grab the first start date that BA put on the table.

OTOH; and purely anecdotal; the son of a friend of mine was due to fly to the US to start training as a BA cadet the day after 9/11. Needless to say, this was delayed with no indication of when or if it would be reinstated. The employer he had just left took him back and he’s now on the main board of a FTSE 100 company. As one door closes another opens.

YS

[Phantom4]

SleepyBhudda,You make a very good point but these are three,four years out of school in established airlines both domestic and ME.A colleague recently witnessed the candidate’s CFIT during procedural letdown due turning the wrong way.

[student88]

Good news for those of you who are crap at flying/CRM/decision-making etc, BA are trialing ditching the sim assessment for a select number of A320 DEPs.

[Phantom4]

Bad idea and could be expensive long term.
IMHO only one category is capable of that path is RAF.
BTW I’m not ex military.

[wiggy]

Don't worry..it's only a trial :bored:...there's obviously no chance of screening by way of a sim being dropped for all candidates, even if a cost saving does get demonstrated....no, no chance at all..:oh:

[RogueOne]

Good news for those of you who are crap at flying/CRM/decision-making etc, BA are trialing ditching the sim assessment for a select number of A320 DEPs.
Interesting.

What's the criteria for these fine individuals?

[V1__]

Anyone else got a start date In May and looking to share accommodation for TR course?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Bad idea and could be expensive long term.
IMHO only one category is capable of that path is RAF.
BTW I’m not ex military.

what utter tosh. In my experience ex mil are often the ones that need it the most! CRM and all that!

but that’s another thread.

ditching the sim is a very very bad idea! I think most people at coal face are horrified.

[wiggy]

what utter tosh. In my experience ex mil are often the ones that need it the most! CRM and all that!
.

:rolleyes:

ditching the sim is a very very bad idea! I think most people at coal face are horrified.

:ok:

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The only part of the selection that actually assesses the candidate under a bit of pressure while working alongside someone they’ve probably never met and managing the day to a safe and sound outcome regardless of issues coming up here and there. Ie what we actually do every day at work.

And it’s being ditched!

That verbal reasoning garbage is obviously much more valuable!

We’ve seen some odd decisions made in the last few years dressed loosely as anything other than cost cutting, but this is by far one of the most shocking.

[Phantom4]

I respect your comments 2Whites 2Reds.
Do you have any idea of the Fail rate in the sim up to the time that this decision to waive the sim ride was made.
I understand it only relates to 320 applicants.
My Take is the Group Exercise is the most important element up to the sim.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I respect your comments 2Whites 2Reds.
Do you have any idea of the Fail rate in the sim up to the time that this decision to waive the sim ride was made.
I understand it only relates to 320 applicants.
My Take is the Group Exercise is the most important element up to the sim.


no idea on the figures I’m afraid. Sorry, didn’t mean to snap. Wrong side of bed this morning.

Like many, I view the sim as a vital part of the recruitment process and I’m appalled they’ve decided to ditch it regardless of background or intended destination fleet. The sim has never really been about ability to fly. But more about navigating your way through a sector to a safe outcome alongside someone you’ve probably never met regardless of what’s thrown at you.

I think we could all do without the computer games and maths tests. But the sim.....bad idea.

Guess which part of the recruitment process costs the most.

[Phantom4]

2Whites 2Reds
Absolutely correct with what you say and £6k pails into insignificance against some potential long term problem and HR should step in because it will be their headache to terminate.
Hopefully they will see sense
Someone very close to me was320 rated ,Did sim assessment and then only 4 sim details before Line Trg
If they eliminate the sim assessment they BA are taking considerable risk.
Best Wishes

[Float15]

Is there anyone who's been offered a 320 job recently who can give me an idea of how long they were in the hold pool? Ta

[MikeAlpha320]

Please forgive me here but if you can fly a 320 for ezy (majority of 320 rated will be ezy) why can't you fly one for BA?

[kookiesandkreme]

Please forgive me here but if you can fly a 320 for ezy (majority of 320 rated will be ezy) why can't you fly one for BA?
suppose they want to see a level of CRM which may not be present (lot of easy are ex cadets that don’t do a sim there)

Also the ability to learn/adapt as you go (looking to a future long haul TR)

[zero/zero]

Please forgive me here but if you can fly a 320 for ezy (majority of 320 rated will be ezy) why can't you fly one for BA?

Why bother interviewing either? If you can pass the interview for EZY then why can’t you pass one for BA?

[Phantom4]

Coal face Captains getting on the issue and they will have to fly with this elite group without a sim ride and before that sim trainers to satisfy..

[Phantom4]

Lindsay would never have endorsed the no sim ride idea and Knight will fall on his sword when it comes back to bite him.
The BA sim assessment is different from many carriers flight test in which there are usually four candidates to process in four hours so just fifty minutes each and a blur of faces for the assessor.Fine that’s what Ryan do,Emirates ,CX and works for them.
The BA is two candidates over Five and a half hours including brief,PowerPoint and four hours in the box.
This allows the assessor ,who are chosen for their interpersonal skills to get to know their charges and say to himself a number of questions before making recommendation to accept or reject.
Perhaps the only sim ride which exceeds BA’s scrutiny is Lufty.

[skyflyer737]

Lindsay would never have endorsed the no sim ride idea and Knight will fall on his sword when it comes back to bite him.
The BA sim assessment is different from many carriers flight test in which there are usually four candidates to process in four hours so just fifty minutes each and a blur of faces for the assessor.Fine that’s what Ryan do,Emirates ,CX and works for them.
The BA is two candidates over Five and a half hours including brief,PowerPoint and four hours in the box.
This allows the assessor ,who are chosen for their interpersonal skills to get to know their charges and say to himself a number of questions before making recommendation to accept or reject.
Perhaps the only sim ride which exceeds BA’s scrutiny is Lufty.

My BA sim ride was nowhere near 4 hours in the box. It was about 45 mins pre-sim briefing, 2.5 hrs in the box and a chit chat over a coffee afterwards. Job offer the next day. Pretty much the same as at Ryanair.

Still, a good workout, a good challenge and utterly essential in any recruitment process I’d say.

[V1__]

Is there anyone who's been offered a 320 job recently who can give me an idea of how long they were in the hold pool? Ta

two weeks to the day from hold pool email to phone call with offer

[kendrick47247]

The BA is two candidates over Five and a half hours including brief,PowerPoint and four hours in the box.

On paper, maybe. In reality, no it isn’t that.
I certainly didn’t do anything like four hours in the box; as the above post says, a chat over coffee then good news a few days later.

Passing the sim certainly doesn’t make you some elite breed... they let me in 🤷🏼‍♂️

[wiggy]

TBH I don’t think it’s the timing that’s bothering people on the line, whether they are trainers or not.

It’s the loss of the ability of a pilot to observe/screen another pilot operating in his/her natural environment that is bugging people....we must now all bow down to the wisdom of HR folks who in all probability will never have to interact with the candidates once they join the airline..

and BTW...it appears to be another example of what a certain CEO meant when he talked about “cost cutting is in (our) DNA”. If those outside BA ( perhaps some of those contemplating joining ) are sometimes puzzled by the grumbles of cost cutting at the company then they would do well to ponder upon this little tip of the iceberg...

[Heathrow09L]

Would it not be better to actually do the sim on day one? and ditch those maths and verbal reasoning tests, plus I hardly see what use the computer test actually serves.

The sim and interview surely would be a better way of assessing people.

[Hank Moody]

Perhaps the only sim ride which exceeds BA’s scrutiny is Lufty.

Well KLM sim is kinda crazy as well,
two day sim,
day one 5hours including 1hour briefing.
day two 5hours including 1hour briefing.

two day sim assessment consist of two candidates.

[Phantom4]

Wiggy,Two Whites Two Reds.
Good morning and kindly humour me.
HR are trying to wrest control of Pilot Recruitment as it falls under their budget and not Flight Ops.
Its happened before and a Senior TC approached FoD who resisted it at that time.
HR do not understand nor would I expect them to the intensity,dynamic and mental Model required to perform in the simulator.They have minimal concept of terms such as MSA and CFIT.
Pilot Recruitment is Perhaps the only career path that is not exclusively run by HR and they don’t like it that way.
I stand corrected on Knight falling on his sword but if he wants to save his team he had better stand up to the task or it will be the thin end of the wedge.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Wiggy,Two Whites Two Reds.
Good morning and kindly humour me.
HR are trying to wrest control of Pilot Recruitment as it falls under their budget and not Flight Ops.
Its happened before and a Senior TC approached FoD who resisted it at that time.
HR do not understand nor would I expect them to the intensity,dynamic and mental Model required to perform in the simulator.They have minimal concept of terms such as MSA and CFIT.
Pilot Recruitment is Perhaps the only career path that is not exclusively run by HR and they don’t like it that way.
I stand corrected on Knight falling on his sword but if he wants to save his team he had better stand up to the task or it will be the thin end of the wedge.

Morning Phantom4

As Wiggy eluded to above, this sort of thing is just the tip of a very big and nasty cost cutting iceberg.

The short answer is, I think many at Waterside forget what we are. An Airline. And a hugely profitable one at that despite the significant costs involves in flying big aeroplanes around the globe. The back office departments such as HR are simply there to supply admin functions to for the part of the business which actually generates the revenue. Flight Ops. Unfortunately it seems to greatly annoy some at HQ that BA continues to spend lots on flying aeroplanes.

Thats not to say there isn't room for efficiencies...but not when they come at this sort of cost. When I joined British Airlines I started to see some of the daftest things I'd ever seen in my career. Baggage dollies being intentionally left behind aeroplanes, stuck chocks, no stand guidance, crew room staplers locked away at night "just in case" (WTF!!!)...the list goes on (and this was all at our home base). Having come from airlines where this sort of s*** just wouldn't be tolerated on any level I found it tough going for the first year or so. I'd never seen anything like it. Slowly but surely (and as my colleagues promised would eventually happen) these things started to wash over me. Not because I cared any less, but simply that trying to fight the system was pointless and allowing the nonsense at BA to get to you is a recipe for some sort of breakdown at an early age! Unfortunately, there seems to be no end to the appetite for more cost cutting. It's horrible to see from the inside. There's running an efficient business and making lots of money....GREAT....then there's flogging the cash cow until it falls over and dies....NOT GREAT. IAG are firmly on a road to doing the latter if they carry on. Which they will.

[Kibathepilot]

Just a quick one about the DEP interview, I have been speaking to a few people and got some info on what questions to expect during the interview from a HR point of view but I was wondering are many tech questions asked during it?
Are these based on your current type or the a320 also?

thanks, been trawling through this forum to see if anyone mentioned it but couldnt see anything so sorry if I missed it!

[RogueOne]

Are they skipping the Sim for everyone who is already 320 typed, or all applicants?

Or perhaps there's a criteria if you have several thousand hrs and are NTR?

[kendrick47247]

Are they skipping the Sim for everyone who is already 320 typed, or all applicants?

Or perhaps there's a criteria if you have several thousand hrs and are NTR?

Only those who are 320 rated and currently flying/flown recently.

For now...

[bex88]

320 rated = no sim? Why? All sim checks were on 747 when I did it. You were not being assessed on type, but for your CRM, decision making and observed learning.

Whatever, as with all “trials” management run, it will be declared a huge success with little evidence and quickly rolled out across the board.

[GS-Alpha]

as with all “trials” management run, it will be declared a huge success with little evidence and quickly rolled out across the board.The only evidence required is the immediate cost saving within their little silo.

[Mylius]

320 rated = no sim? Why? All sim checks were on 747 when I did it. You were not being assessed on type, but for your CRM, decision making and observed learning.

Clearly such a policy is designed to save money but also to put a stop to the negotiations between candidates and the company about which fleet they will join in an environment where DEPs onto long-haul will be in high demand and short-haul remaining an undesirable fleet to join for those with experience elsewhere.

By allowing 320 rated applicants to avoid a sim check it provides an incentive to apply for short-haul and gives no opportunity to negotiate a long-haul fleet since you only get a tick in the “eligible for long-haul” box during a sim check.

[RexBanner]

I think you’re giving BA far too much credit over and above what’s really going on which is it’s cheaper not to put candidates in the sim, that’s all that matters to BA post Walsh and especially Cruz.

I’ve already stated that the process has been watered down recently by all this “suitable for long haul” nonsense. In the (not so) old days part and parcel of the BA sim assessment was looking at you with regard to your ability to pass any conversion including onto a Long Haul type if required so if you passed the sim the possibility of Long Haul was a given if you had the requisite hours. Any question mark and you failed, nowadays any question mark and you’re waved in onto the A320 Fleet seeing as no other bugger will take it.

[Doug E Style]

For the benefit of those heading (or hoping) for the A320 at LHR, the following may be of interest. This is a breakdown of what sort of trips are available in April:

19 5-day trips of which just over half have a layover day (all in LIS)

214 4-day trips of which about 20% have a layover day (12 different destinations) and 9 have two layover days (all in TLV)

522 3-day trips of which about one third have a layover day (20 different destinations)

884 2-day trips of which 28 are night flights (DME)

1581 day trips of which 19 are four sectors

In additional 63 people will be on reserve, the details of which have been discussed before on this thread. All of this flying will be divided up between around 500 pilots. This is just a snapshot and the above numbers will change to some degree throughout the year.

The LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY trips are excluded from the above figures, as are trips extracted for training.

[Dupre]

For the benefit of those heading (or hoping) for the A320 at LHR, the following may be of interest. This is a breakdown of what sort of trips are available in April:

19 5-day trips of which just over half have a standover day (all in LIS)

214 4-day trips of which about 20% have a standover day (12 different destinations) and 9 have two standover days (all in TLV)

522 3-day trips of which about one third have a standover day (20 different destinations)

884 2-day trips of which 28 are night flights (DME)

1581 day trips of which 19 are four sectors

In additional 63 people will be on reserve, the details of which have been discussed before on this thread. This is just a snapshot and the above numbers will change to some degree throughout the year.

that's great info for pilots looking at joining Doug! I'll just add that a standover is a full calendar day off down route. (I had never heard the term before coming to ba!)

[bex88]

Day off down route.....? Is that not just being at work for no credit?

[Doug E Style]

Day off down route.....? Is that not just being at work for no credit?

Some people treat them as Heathrow aggravation recovery days...

[student88]

Are they skipping the Sim for everyone who is already 320 typed, or all applicants?

Or perhaps there's a criteria if you have several thousand hrs and are NTR?

From what I have heard it's only for easyJet applicants.

[kendrick47247]

From what I have heard it's only for easyJet applicants.

Then I’d suggest being a little more selective with your hearing

[bringbackthe80s]

Then I’d suggest being a little more selective with your hearing

kendrick got offended, he also wants to be elite😂😂

[kendrick47247]

kendrick got offended, he also wants to be elite😂😂

😂 elite? It was a tongue in cheek response.

Even on a rumour network I think it’s worth squashing things that aren’t true.

[GKOC41]

Wiggy,Two Whites Two Reds.
Good morning and kindly humour me.
HR are trying to wrest control of Pilot Recruitment as it falls under their budget and not Flight Ops.
Its happened before and a Senior TC approached FoD who resisted it at that time.
HR do not understand nor would I expect them to the intensity,dynamic and mental Model required to perform in the simulator.They have minimal concept of terms such as MSA and CFIT.
Pilot Recruitment is Perhaps the only career path that is not exclusively run by HR and they don’t like it that way.
I stand corrected on Knight falling on his sword but if he wants to save his team he had better stand up to the task or it will be the thin end of the wedge.

Gone are the days when Chief Pilots used to ring each other up and if they got a recomendation they knew the guy coming was a right wayne kerr or a good egg. Failing that the assessors and HR both said no this guys no good but then someone up the chain said take him on.
Anyone else familiar with that? :ugh:

[student88]

Even on a rumour network I think it’s worth squashing things that aren’t true.

Okay clever clogs, what information do you have which refutes what I have heard?

[kendrick47247]

Okay clever clogs, what information do you have which refutes what I have heard?

Didn’t mean it to come across like that at all, apologies. Ex-Thomas Cook friends were passed in January with no sim.

Word is that during the “lunch” presentation candidates are told that only NTR A320 will be required to attend the sim assessment

[Alrosa]

Interesting. So presumably you can have zero CRM skills, or missing tonnes of BA pilot competencies, but as long as you can fly an A320 you’re in. If you’re not A320 TR these skills must be assessed in the sim.

Unless I’ve missed the point of the BA sim assessment, this doesn’t seem right.

[wiggy]

Interesting. So presumably you can have zero CRM skills, or missing tonnes of BA pilot competencies, but as long as you can fly an A320 you’re in. If you’re not A320 TR these skills must be assessed in the sim.

Unless I’ve missed the point of the BA sim assessment, this doesn’t seem right.

i think somebody has decided that some, if not all of the above mentioned competencies can be assessed in an interview or group exercise scenario.

if this is anything like the many other trials I have seen over the years at BA then the result has already been decided...

[nightfright]

Stop bein bitter and get on with it - their train set and their decision ........ the sheer fact that A320 TR guys are cheaper means they have an advantage - BA wants A320 guys not anyone else and don’t be delusional thinking that they will choose you for the competencies only -..... cash is king and if they get a bum on the seat with less spend - that’s what they will have

[wiggy]

Stop bein bitter and get on with it - their train set and their decision ........ the sheer fact that A320 TR guys are cheaper means they have an advantage - BA wants A320 guys not anyone else and don’t be delusional thinking that they will choose you for the competencies only -..... cash is king and if they get a bum on the seat with less spend - that’s what they will have

I think most of the recent contributors to this thread successfully got “on with it” a few (or in at least one case many) years ago...but thanks for the advice...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It is without doubt a cost saving measure and of course relieves the pressure on the training department.

However all this worry over “standards falling” needs to be offset against the fact that sim check or not, these A320 DEPs will still have to pass the initial BA “short” course with not a huge amount of time to get used to the SOPs and BA, erm, “philosophy” when it comes to how we operate. It’s not like they pass an interview and start flying the line the next day is it? I know a few highly capable people from ezy back when I joined who failed the sim check at BA for who knows what reason, and they are every bit if not more capable than me, so go figure. If you can fly an Airbus for ezy/shamrock/TC you can most likely fly it just as well for BA and if you can’t you won’t get past the sim short course or line training.

Still plenty of time to **** up if you aren’t up to scratch. And let’s face it, if there is a sudden spike in failures from guys who didn’t have to jump through the sim ride hoop then the “trial” will be ended pronto given that would be a far most costly and time consuming issue for the various beancounting silos that make up what used to be called BA.

I really don’t see this affecting the price of fish tbh.

[wrong_attitude]

Morning all,

For anyone joining on the SH course commencing 20th April - Let me know / DM me!

For anyone with upcoming assessments DM me also, more than happy to help others.

Safe flying and have a good weekend folks.

WA

[RexBanner]

In the current climate are start dates even still being handed out? Rumours of 3 weeks unpaid leave being offered on the 777.

[CXKA]

Have not heard anything re 3 weeks, they have offered us to be able to drop trips for unpaid leave on the 777. I do worry that those in the pool may be swimming a lot longer now, though hopefully I am wrong on this as I have a few mates swimming.

[wiggy]

In the current climate are start dates even still being handed out? Rumours of 3 weeks unpaid leave being offered on the 777.

As CXKA says unpaid leave of some duration very definitely being offered on the 777, notice came out a few days ago.

IMHO it’s hard to see how both the hold pool and recruitment are not going to be hit by this.

[VinRouge]

Recruitment was stated today in the Times business section as one way of pairing back expenditure and reducing costs.

[Jock Trapped]

Have not heard anything re 3 weeks, they have offered us to be able to drop trips for unpaid leave on the 777. I do worry that those in the pool may be swimming a lot longer now, though hopefully I am wrong on this as I have a few mates swimming.

Does anyone have an informed opinion as to where one might stand having been given a start date and submitted notice to current employer, awkward timing and wondering how much of a “done deal” a signed contract actually is 😬

[kookiesandkreme]

Does anyone have an informed opinion as to where one might stand having been given a start date and submitted notice to current employer, awkward timing and wondering how much of a “done deal” a signed contract actually is 😬


+1!!



c h a r a c t e r s

[boeing89]

Does anyone have an informed opinion as to where one might stand having been given a start date and submitted notice to current employer, awkward timing and wondering how much of a “done deal” a signed contract actually is 😬

Same here...and already left previous airline in anticipation of starting.

[Subria321]

Does anyone have an informed opinion as to where one might stand having been given a start date and submitted notice to current employer, awkward timing and wondering how much of a “done deal” a signed contract actually is 😬 Same boat here, have a start date in May. I’ve emailed the recruitment team to ask what’s going on. Not an ideal situation to be in.

[PilotViking]

How many of those who's been through stage 3 did sim prep beforehand?
There are a few places out there who offers xHours on a 747 for $$$

For those who's done it was it worth it or was it better not having any experience on the 747 coming in to the sim and having a greater learning curve (for those who didn't)
Is it needed or can it in someways have a negative impact on the actual sim?

[122.85]

How many of those who's been through stage 3 did sim prep beforehand?
There are a few places out there who offers xHours on a 747 for $$$

For those who's done it was it worth it or was it better not having any experience on the 747 coming in to the sim and having a greater learning curve (for those who didn't)
Is it needed or can it in someways have a negative impact on the actual sim?

There maybe some benefit but personally I would be practicing flying needles all around UK airports. This will be much more useful than spending loads on a 747 sim. They will take lack of experience on a 747 in to account but if you can’t fly a raw data SID/STAR or hold then that will be an issue. I spent a good few days sat on flight sim at my old flying school and it made a big difference on the day. Best of luck

[EMB-145LR]

Judging by the very high number of begging texts for P2s to pick up trips and come and fly on their days off, I don't think those in the pool have too much to worry about right now. That comes with the caveat that if offered SH, take it. Take the first offer you get. Delaying for LH could really come back to bite you in the backside at the moment.

We seem to be desperate on the A320 at LHR the moment. I received five texts asking for volunteers to cover flights at very short notice yesterday, and another five on Friday. They're offering Leave Buy Back in February, which is quite unprecedented. I shudder to think what the summer is going to be like.

[Phantom4]

Best advice from EMB,take first offer.Ten years ago hold pool drained and swimmers left floundering.
Guys and girls had to repeat application 18 months later,wasn’t pretty.

[WonderBus]

Unfortunately all recruitment (operational and non operational), except for offers already made, are being suspended for the time being.

[wiggy]

Source for that info (or at least a hint at where it came from )?

[WonderBus]

From RN this morning

[wiggy]

Ok thanks...I wonder how long it will take to permeate as far as the Yammersphere and/or “One”...?

Oh hang on, it’s a weekend.......

[Sliderson]

Unfortunately all recruitment (operational and non operational), except for offers already made, are being suspended for the time being.

Don’t suppose you’d know whether that includes BACF as well?

[Smell the Coffee]

So has anyone told recruitment that there is a hiring freeze ? Roles still being advertised and upcoming assessments this week yet to be canned ...

[wiggy]

TBH I have only heard of a freeze by way of that one post upthread, nothing elsewhere that corroborates that..

Being charitable one can only guess the situation is evolving so quickly, and it’s still only Monday PM............

Then again AFAIK nobody on the line pilot side of things has been informed about the widely reported route cutting that SKY and BBC have reported this evening...(rumour has it cabin crew were told details by e-mail within minutes.)

Sounds like “ Ops normal” as far as communication between pilots and their management goes.

[Jwscud]

To be fair I did have a notification in eMaestro when I updated my roster for times for my logbook. What more could I possibly want ?

[wiggy]

To be fair I did have a notification in eMaestro when I updated my roster for times for my logbook. What more could I possibly want ?

:E..........

[WorcesterPilot]

Same boat here, have a start date in May. I’ve emailed the recruitment team to ask what’s going on. Not an ideal situation to be in.

Just gave them a call and they said they’ve not been told anything new so expect the course to remain the same date etc. If anything changes we’ll get emailed.
Apparently they’re honouring contract offers already been made according to a BALPA source. That being said if anyone hears anything to the contrary please share, still considering begging my current company to accept a notice withdrawal...

[Twiglet1]

Just gave them a call and they said they’ve not been told anything new so expect the course to remain the same date etc. If anything changes we’ll get emailed.
Apparently they’re honouring contract offers already been made according to a BALPA source. That being said if anyone hears anything to the contrary please share, still considering begging my current company to accept a notice withdrawal...
Nervous times, keep the faith and worry about it if/when it happens

[thetimesreader84]

That being said if anyone hears anything to the contrary please share, still considering begging my current company to accept a notice withdrawal...

If the email that I’ve seen is genuine (seen, not sent, crucial difference) and I’ve no reason at the moment to think it’s not, then anyone with a confirmed start date is as secure now as they were before Corona Virus.

And Given the the amount of uncovered trips in March for 320 FO, At this stage I can’t see why we’d stop recruitment. We’re a long way undercrewed.

[kendrick47247]

If the email that I’ve seen is genuine (seen, not sent, crucial difference) and I’ve no reason at the moment to think it’s not, then anyone with a confirmed start date is as secure now as they were before Corona Virus.

And Given the the amount of uncovered trips in March for 320 FO, At this stage I can’t see why we’d stop recruitment. We’re a long way undercrewed.

Perhaps we’ve seen different emails, but as far as I’m aware there’s definitely a recruitment freeze (operational and non-operational) for the time being.

But you’re right, we certainly were massively undercrewed, who knows now with the reduction/redistribution of flights

[bex88]

From a CC perspective a trainer I was flying with told me that all training other than non essential training was cancelled. Recruitment and promotions were suspended.

From a flight crew perspective there has been no official word. The rumour is the 320 fleet is going to have to work harder to ensure the slots are flown as long haul flights are reduced. I believe we have to fly the slot 80% of the time?

Is this all a overreaction? Hopefully summer and a level head will see a cautious but more measured response from the public

[wiggy]

Perhaps we’ve seen different emails, but as far as I’m aware there’s definitely a recruitment freeze (operational and non-operational) for the time being.

The only freeze message I am currently aware of is that Mixed Fleet Customer Service Managers (CSMs) have allegedly been told there is a freeze..now that’s only anecdotal since I haven’t seen the message myself and if it does exist the context might be a freeze only on Mixed Fleet Recruitment.

(edit to add: Whilst was typing bex seems to have possibly confirmed that’s the story)

Re slots - I believe given the circumstances there’s a move Internationally to produce an agreement to protect airport slots (any airport) regardless of whether they are flown or not....frankly it wouldn’t look good if aircraft were flown around empty simply to slot sit. I think such agreements have been made in the past (possibly post 9/11).

http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2020/03/airlines-suffering-from-fewer-passengers-due-to-coronavirus-want-relaxation-of-80-slot-use-it-or-lose-it-rule/

[V1__]

I have a start date in May. Contract signed and notice given. I rang recruitment line this afternoon who advised me that my start date will still go ahead. I do have a mate who has been told he was successful through sim and placed in hold pool but there will be no more start dates given for the foreseeable.
I fully understand my response from recruitment today is only valid for as long as it’s not.

[Smell the Coffee]

If there is a freeze it’s a bizarre way of going about it. Roles continue to be advertised on the external website (including a new role advertised today for DEC at CityFlyer) and assessments for DEP going ahead tomorrow as planned!

[GS-Alpha]

If there is a freeze it’s a bizarre way of going about it. Roles continue to be advertised on the external website (including a new role advertised today for DEC at CityFlyer) and assessments for DEP going ahead tomorrow as planned!
What does CityFlyer recruitment have to do with proving or disproving a freeze on BA recruitment though?

As far as I am aware, BA have never failed to honour a signed employment contract, so I wouldn’t be at all worried if I had given my notice to a previous employer after signing a contract with BA.

[Smell the Coffee]

I wasn’t trying to prove or disprove anything, just adding my tuppence’ worth to the discussion on a rumours forum. The facts are BA are still advertising externally for a number of roles, and assessments (for DEP at least) continue to run. Of course that could change in 24 hours...

[RexBanner]

As far as I am aware, BA have never failed to honour a signed employment contract, so I wouldn’t be at all worried if I had given my notice to a previous employer after signing a contract with BA.

what’s the old disclaimer, past performance is no guarantee of future performance? There’s nothing remotely honourable about our current management. At any level. The simple fact is though that we’re undercrewed, there’s no doubt about that. It remains to be seen how much the flying schedule changes will affect that. You’d certainly hope/expect that the guys given start dates are fairly safe and that most of the internal courses will go ahead as planned. As far as I’m aware the new aircraft are still coming this year, even if the 787-10 is being continually pushed back (that was the case pre Coronavirus).

[Chief Willy]

From what I’ve heard all current offers remain,
no change there. If you have an offer you are safe. Future opportunities have to be signed off via CEO/CFO.

[kendrick47247]

From what I’ve heard all current offers remain,
no change there. If you have an offer you are safe. Future opportunities have to be signed off via CEO/CFO.

This rings true from what I’ve seen

[capt.sparrow]

Reuters report a snip interview with WW regarding aircraft orders. They remain firm on all orders and see the coronavirus as a temporary issue, and won't do anything to jeopardize the long term business direction. I would presume this would include making sure the crews are ready as planned.

[Vokes55]

As far as I am aware, BA have never failed to honour a signed employment contract, so I wouldn’t be at all worried if I had given my notice to a previous employer after signing a contract with BA.

Tell that to all the cabin crew that signed "world class" contracts for start dates this year, only to be told a month before starting that they would be on mixed fleet contracts instead (on a much lower basic pay). BA certainly have form in not honouring signed employment contracts.

[Rottweiler22]

The only time I’ve heard of airlines pulling job offers in the last few years, is before a contract is signed and from people practically in hold pools. I know a few cadets who had offers from RYR withdrawn last year due to their “restructuring” late summer. However, this was shortly after the assessment outcome, and as far as I know it was a pre-offer with a “rough” start date and no contract at that time. Given the typical “we’ll keep you on file, and let you know when we start running courses again” lip service. A regional airline did the same with cadets when they hit a bit of rough air, except they were told to PFO.

I’m very confident those with signed contracts and start dates have nothing to worry about whatsoever. And I think the odds of those in the pool are just as well. It will just be a few anxious months of waiting for BA to pull their finger out and get back on track after this fiasco.

I’m still waiting for the sim, so can’t see that happening until the Summer. No response from recruitment.

Got to stay positive. Just not tested positive for Coronavirus.

[EMB-145LR]

The company have just sent out an email saying there is now a blanket ban on all external recruitment with immediate effect. Temporary part time and voluntary unpaid leave are also being offered. Fingers crossed none of this lasts too long. As I said above, on the A320 we seem to be chronically under crewed at the moment.

[kendrick47247]

Is it true now that all future assessments have been cancelled?

[GetTheQRH]

Is it true now that all future assessments have been cancelled?

All future assessment dates have been removed, but candidates are frozen at their current stage and will be able to continue through the process from where they left off when recruitment reopens.

[kendrick47247]

All future assessment dates have been removed, but candidates are frozen at their current stage and will be able to continue through the process from where they left off when recruitment reopens.

Thanks for clarifying; I guess we’re fully crewed for the time being then 🤔

[WorcesterPilot]

Well we were all wrong... just had an phone call from someone in flight ops to tell me theyve retracted my offer of employment and stuck me at the top of the hold pool until further notice.

[Mrglass]

Coming classes cancelled and everyone back in the hold pool is what i'm hearing!

Everyone affected is too busy trying to stop their lives falling apart to post here. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Best of luck to those caught up in this heinous act of cruelty.

[Mylius]

An absolute disgrace if this is true.

[capt.sparrow]

Afraid so. 3 weeks to go on my notice from current job and back in the pool. Just had a call from flt ops.

[rhs4life]

I can confirm this... Got the call that my course has been cancelled.. 4 weeks to go with current employer. Tried to cancel my resignation and base manager has been told not to take back any pilots who have had courses cancelled by BA

[SissySkinner]

Afraid so. 3 weeks to go on my notice from current job and back in the pool. Just had a call from flt ops.

Yup just had the call as well, same time frame, 3 weeks until start date. Unlikely that my current employer will keep me on any longer than my notice period. Pretty gutted.

[Fursty Ferret]

Afraid so. 3 weeks to go on my notice from current job and back in the pool. Just had a call from flt ops.

This is appalling. If you have a signed job offer you have legal protections - at the minimum you're entitled to the pay for the three month notice period (+ the accrued holiday pay).

[Jwscud]

I hope there are legal options available for breach of contract for those of you in such an awful position.

[kendrick47247]

I hope there are legal options available for breach of contract for those of you in such an awful position.

I certainly hope so; or BALPA take a strong position on it.

Terrible news for those involved, not a nice thing to have to tackle with your soon to be employer

[WorcesterPilot]

I'm in the same boat, May 11th course 'postponed'. Cheeky bugger who called me said he 'hoped it would be months rather than years' before I get a course.

Problem I can see with BALPA/those involved kicking up a fuss is them cancelling the courses indefinitely as punishment, I really wouldn't put it past them to make an example of those to seek legal action based on their recently cold heartedness.

[GS-Alpha]

This corona virus is serious. As soon as I heard you could be infectious before presenting symptoms, I knew it was a serious problem and I couldn’t see the world treating it seriously enough. I still do not think it is being treated seriously enough, even with clear examples of heath services being crippled by the demand. A coordinated global effort is required to nip it in the bud, but the worlds leaders are hoping they can avoid economic damage by getting lucky with pussyfooting around.

That being said, whilst I am pleased the company are recognising the seriousness of this outbreak, I am both saddened and surprised that they are choosing to display their true colours to all future pilot applicants by cancelling signed contracts.

Good luck to you all.

[Joe le Taxi]

I hope there are legal options available for breach of contract for those of you in such an awful position. I don't think there are any - until you start, you don't have a contract in force, therefore there is no breach!

[WorcesterPilot]

Quote from my friend who is a BALPA rep:

"It stinks. It’s also unexpected. They’ve always honoured signed contracts even after 9/11 and in 2008"

Cheers union, makes all those union subs worth it.

[WorcesterPilot]

I don't think there are any - until you start, you don't have a contract in force, therefore there is no breach!
What's the point in signing it before day one then?

[RexBanner]

Quote from my friend who is a BALPA rep:

"It stinks. It’s also unexpected. They’ve always honoured signed contracts even after 9/11 and in 2008"

Cheers union, makes all those union subs worth it.

Rams home the point I made earlier about our management. God knows what they’re dreaming up now by way of salary reductions/redundancies. Sincere apologies and commiserations to those who are affected by all this. If anything it’s a heads up and eye opener as to the true nature of the company you would have been joining. Fingers crossed you can get things sorted out ASAP. I get the feeling all of us are going to need good luck over the next few months.

[RogueOne]

I don't think there are any - until you start, you don't have a contract in force, therefore there is no breach!

Existing case law disagrees with you.

[Ollie Onion]

I would think this would qualify as ‘Force majeure’, BA are likely to be able to alleviate all contractural obligations to the new joiners whilst the effects of Corona Virus are impacting the business. Of course can only be applicable if the BA contract includes a clause allowing the application of Force Majeure but I would be shocked if they don’t have it in the wording. Corona Virus is clearly an event outside of the control of both parties.

[Mister Geezer]

A friend of mine was due to start next month and he asked about hold pool validity and if there would be any ramifications of lack of currency, for those who have already resigned from their current position.

He said that he was assured that in a worst case scenario, there would be indefinite validity for those entering the hold pool again. There would also be no problem for those that may have a gap in flying activity, prior to eventual employment with BA.

[bex88]

The current situation is unlike any before. This is expected to be a very significant but relatively short time frame event. What does the company do? In this situation it needs to minimise losses in the short term without affecting the medium term plans. If there were to be a panicked mass redundancy of hundreds of pilots, it would then prove very difficult to get them all back into work quickly enough when we see recovery.

We see offers for unpaid leave (up to one month), part time options and recruitment freezes (although did we not only two days ago recruit a load of new managers?). What’s the next step? Voluntary retirement package? Part time working across all pilots? As a group what we need to do is all take some of the pain and not see our more junior colleagues out of work. We all complain about workload, lack of time off and tax, this maybe a opportunity to address those issues and save jobs.

Yes I am full time, yes I would go 75% for a fixed period and no I am probably senior enough to not have to do that. I have been at risk a number of times and I was saved by the good will of more senior pilots and I am prepared to do the same for my colleagues.

All speculation of course, hopefully we don’t get to that point.

[Sliderson]

Great post, well said.

[BluSdUp]

First I would like to express my deepest sympathy for the pilots here that resigned from current job after getting a contract and a start date with BA.
I have had the great joy to listen to probably 100s of FOs being on the way out of my outfit for greener grass.
It always strike me as odd how obsessed they are with " honoring" the present contract with regards to notice.
In bad times as we have had lately,there is no points for being a Gentleman. It is survival, for individuals and companies alike.
It is brutal but do NOT hand in resignation before course start at the new company. Burn that bridge if You have to.
Regards
Cpt B

[Mylius]

First I would like to express my deepest sympathy for the pilots here that resigned from current job after getting a contract and a start date with BA.
I have had the great joy to listen to probably 100s of FOs being on the way out of my outfit for greener grass.
It always strike me as odd how obsessed they are with " honoring" the present contract with regards to notice.
In bad times as we have had lately,there is no points for being a Gentleman. It is survival, for individuals and companies alike.
It is brutal but do NOT hand in resignation before course start at the new company. Burn that bridge if You have to.
Regards
Cpt B

Surely they can have you for breach of contract if you do that?

[LlamaFarmer]

First I would like to express my deepest sympathy for the pilots here that resigned from current job after getting a contract and a start date with BA.
I have had the great joy to listen to probably 100s of FOs being on the way out of my outfit for greener grass.
It always strike me as odd how obsessed they are with " honoring" the present contract with regards to notice.
In bad times as we have had lately,there is no points for being a Gentleman. It is survival, for individuals and companies alike.
It is brutal but do NOT hand in resignation before course start at the new company. Burn that bridge if You have to.
Regards
Cpt B

If you have a notice period of 3 months, you have to give notice.
You can't just walk out the door. They will sue you for breach of contract, which you will lose. And it will cost lots.

If you've been given a start date then that constitutes an employment contract and it does not have to be verbal.
Unless there is a force majeur clause in any BA contract or agreement you sign, then they have to honour it.

[kendrick47247]

It always strike me as odd how obsessed they are with " honoring" the present contract with regards to notice.
In bad times as we have had lately,there is no points for being a Gentleman. It is survival, for individuals and companies alike.
It is brutal but do NOT hand in resignation before course start at the new company. Burn that bridge if You have to.
Regards
Cpt B

I’m sure I’ve heard worse advice in my life, but I certainly can’t think of it right now.

[Phantom4]

Not a clever comment from Blu.Aviation has big ears and recruiters all know each other.
Besides if they hear you have left without notice,are you going to do it again.
Most airlines would ask for reference from previous employer,won’t end well with Blu advice.

[Callsign Kilo]

First I would like to express my deepest sympathy for the pilots here that resigned from current job after getting a contract and a start date with BA.
I have had the great joy to listen to probably 100s of FOs being on the way out of my outfit for greener grass.
It always strike me as odd how obsessed they are with " honoring" the present contract with regards to notice.
In bad times as we have had lately,there is no points for being a Gentleman. It is survival, for individuals and companies alike.
It is brutal but do NOT hand in resignation before course start at the new company. Burn that bridge if You have to.
Regards
Cpt B

Remarkable. There's all sorts of integrity issues with his sort of behaviour and this is no industry for having your integrity questioned. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who finds themsevles in hard times at the moment, through job loss or loss of potential employment, however taking this sort of advice will leave you as the biggest sitting duck on the lake.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I’m sure I’ve heard worse advice in my life, but I certainly can’t think of it right now.


My thoughts exactly!

[VariablePitchP]

If you have a notice period of 3 months, you have to give notice.
You can't just walk out the door. They will sue you for breach of contract, which you will lose. And it will cost lots.

If you've been given a start date then that constitutes an employment contract and it does not have to be verbal.
Unless there is a force majeur clause in any BA contract or agreement you sign, then they have to honour it.

No they won’t. They can take you to the high court to seek an injunction to stop you working but why an earth would they bother for a pilot. Yes if you’re a board member who is a genuine threat to the business by going elsewhere, just a pilot though? Absolutely not.

Sorry to say it but if you think you are that important that Ezy/Ryanair will fight that hard to keep you (particularly at the moment) then you’re nuts.

Integrity argument... kind of. Again... do you think your new employer actually gives a damn? There is no blacklist of people that have jumped ship, you forget you’re just a number (not always a bad thing!)

Not to say that people should run out and start doing this (ideally you’d always want to honour your employment obligations obviously!) but there has to come a point where you put yourself first if the circumstances demand it. Imagine you’re working in an office with a three month notice period waiting for your first airline job and your dream job phones you up and wants you in the very next day, of course you’d be there, as would everyone reading this. It’s really not that different.

[The Foss]

Not that I’m advocating this but I remember a few years ago TAP were offering positions at very short notice and were actively encouraging pilots to leave their previous company without notice, saying they were happy for them to join without a reference etc.

At an airline where recruitment/movement up the MSL is slower than BA, the DOJ was even more important and I know FR for example lost a not insignificant number almost overnight!

[BluSdUp]

" All recruiters know each other!" NO!
" He might need a reference,," For what , he just started in BA, Only leaving for the Oldfolks Home!
A company I know of does not even give reference!! So arrange with a " friendly" Cpt or Trainer to give You a letter!
" You will get sued " NO! FOR WHAT! Two of my friends left with no notice , never heard a thing!
" Aviation has big ears" NO! It used to , when it was the CP or Head of Training doing the culling of CVs on his table. HR is a different beast.

I am afraid we have quite a few pilots presently working the last days of notice. To be available for a course that might not start until next February.
This is the context I issue this advice to be considered for anyone in similar position in these uncertain times.
I would not advice this for normal procedure, not even Non Normal , we are talking Recall Item Emergency here!

I have been way to many places in my 32 years in Aviation and this crisis has the potential to unhinge the market for us pilots like nothing I have ever seen.
But by all means question my integrity for coming with tough advice.
I am not going anywhere.
For now!
Good Luck to All
Cpt B

[VariablePitchP]

" All recruiters know each other!" NO!
" He might need a reference,," For what , he just started in BA, Only leaving for the Oldfolks Home!
A company I know of does not even give reference!! So arrange with a " friendly" Cpt or Trainer to give You a letter!
" You will get sued " NO! FOR WHAT! Two of my friends left with no notice , never heard a thing!
" Aviation has big ears" NO! It used to , when it was the CP or Head of Training doing the culling of CVs on his table. HR is a different beast.

I am afraid we have quite a few pilots presently working the last days of notice. To be available for a course that might not start until next February.
This is the context I issue this advice to be considered for anyone in similar position in these uncertain times.
I would not advice this for normal procedure, not even Non Normal , we are talking Recall Item Emergency here!

I have been way to many places in my 32 years in Aviation and this crisis has the potential to unhinge the market for us pilots like nothing I have ever seen.
But by all means question my integrity for coming with tough advice.
I am not going anywhere.
For now!
Good Luck to All
Cpt B

Great post

Key takeaway here is the HR point. References really don’t exist anymore. All you will EVER get is a ‘confirmation of employment dates’ or something similarly titled. Reason is no one wants to be sued for giving a bad reference so are scared of them, quite reasonably. And absolutely right about the chief pilot point, modern airlines are not old boys clubs where if daddy wore the right squadron tie you got in, everyone is equal and you’re based purely on the application, nothing else.

[Doug E Style]

I expect that once this crisis is over, BA won’t be able to get new pilots in fast enough. They have acquired the Flybe slots and I’d be very surprised if they sell any of those.

[Vokes55]

Plenty of people have left Ryanair without serving their notice period. I flew with a captain who received a job offer on a turnaround down route, handed his ID and iPad in on return to base and was never seen again. It’s not the worst advice in the world in the current climate, and airlines have bigger fish to fry right now than chasing an FO for not serving their notice.

The best advice though is don’t go to BA. Their true colours have been shown in their treatment of pilots and cabin crew with signed contracts to join. From what I gather, the goodwill doesn’t improve after joining either.

[PPRuNeUser0204]

Plenty of people have left Ryanair without serving their notice period. I flew with a captain who received a job offer on a turnaround down route, handed his ID and iPad in on return to base and was never seen again. It’s not the worst advice in the world in the current climate, and airlines have bigger fish to fry right now than chasing an FO for not serving their notice.

The best advice though is don’t go to BA. Their true colours have been shown in their treatment of pilots and cabin crew with signed contracts to join. From what I gather, the goodwill doesn’t improve after joining either.

i don’t think they are any different to any other company.

[WorcesterPilot]

" All recruiters know each other!" NO!
" He might need a reference,," For what , he just started in BA, Only leaving for the Oldfolks Home!
A company I know of does not even give reference!! So arrange with a " friendly" Cpt or Trainer to give You a letter!
" You will get sued " NO! FOR WHAT! Two of my friends left with no notice , never heard a thing!
" Aviation has big ears" NO! It used to , when it was the CP or Head of Training doing the culling of CVs on his table. HR is a different beast.

I am afraid we have quite a few pilots presently working the last days of notice. To be available for a course that might not start until next February.
This is the context I issue this advice to be considered for anyone in similar position in these uncertain times.
I would not advice this for normal procedure, not even Non Normal , we are talking Recall Item Emergency here!

I have been way to many places in my 32 years in Aviation and this crisis has the potential to unhinge the market for us pilots like nothing I have ever seen.
But by all means question my integrity for coming with tough advice.
I am not going anywhere.
For now!
Good Luck to All
Cpt B

Out of interest, where's this no course until next February coming from?

[Black Pudding]

The current situation is unlike any before. This is expected to be a very significant but relatively short time frame event. What does the company do? In this situation it needs to minimise losses in the short term without affecting the medium term plans. If there were to be a panicked mass redundancy of hundreds of pilots, it would then prove very difficult to get them all back into work quickly enough when we see recovery.

We see offers for unpaid leave (up to one month), part time options and recruitment freezes (although did we not only two days ago recruit a load of new managers?). What’s the next step? Voluntary retirement package? Part time working across all pilots? As a group what we need to do is all take some of the pain and not see our more junior colleagues out of work. We all complain about workload, lack of time off and tax, this maybe a opportunity to address those issues and save jobs.

Yes I am full time, yes I would go 75% for a fixed period and no I am probably senior enough to not have to do that. I have been at risk a number of times and I was saved by the good will of more senior pilots and I am prepared to do the same for my colleagues.

All speculation of course, hopefully we don’t get to that point.

bex88, I don’t know you nor have I ever met you, but I would gladly buy you a beer if and when we ever crossed paths.

[RHS]

Here here Bex 88. Calmer heads need to prevail over the next 6 months.

[Northern Monkey]

This is just a completely unprecedented situation which is quite clearly going to require some sacrifice from everyone if no one is to lose their job.

The press conference today with the CSO and CMO suggests we are 10-14 weeks away from the "peak" of the epidemic in the UK. But it WILL be back next winter. Companies are going to have to take action which preserves their survival through till 2021 when a vaccine is available. Personally I suspect government intervention will sooner or later be necessary, but we're obviously not there yet.

Anyone who underestimates the challenges we face over the coming months is only deluding themselves. We have to stick together and try to share whatever pain is coming our way.

[TheAirMission]

This is just a completely unprecedented situation which is quite clearly going to require some sacrifice from everyone if no one is to lose their job.
.

Well, coincidently, a number of pilots will be without a job following their soon-to-be employer deciding to withdraw their job offer...

[BluSdUp]

Why do I pick NEXT February?
Well, considering they just closed Norway as I was out fishing today, I would say the hysteria has just begun!
( 600 cases and 1 dead ! )
Anyway
I could be wrong, but no airline , in Europe needs a single extra pilot the next 13 months!!
Easter starts 1 April 2021 and then summer starts with a lot of pent up " travel energy" amongst the survivors. Airlines and folks alike.
As an old Head of Training I happen to know a thing or two about recruitment and providing the Max is back and the Corona is backing off, there is no point in committing to new pilots until well after newyear.
I hope I am wrong, and feel free to remind me if I am,

Stay healthy!
Cpt B

[Berbly]

Why do I pick NEXT February?
Well, considering they just closed Norway as I was out fishing today, I would say the hysteria has just begun!
( 600 cases and 1 dead ! )
Anyway
I could be wrong, but no airline , in Europe needs a single extra pilot the next 13 months!!
Easter starts 1 April 2021 and then summer starts with a lot of pent up " travel energy" amongst the survivors. Airlines and folks alike.
As an old Head of Training I happen to know a thing or two about recruitment and providing the Max is back and the Corona is backing off, there is no point in committing to new pilots until well after newyear.
I hope I am wrong, and feel free to remind me if I am,

Stay healthy!
Cpt B

Sounds like Blu has caught the supposed hysteria from Norway! Picking random numbers and dates out of the air does not a sensible analysis make.

Considering there has not been a virus like this for a generation, there is no relevant comparison. Watching interviews with actual professional analysts, they say there is a pick up in holiday bookings for this winter (ie delaying their summer holidays), so I suspect we will see a quick economic pick up in the second half of this year.

I’m going to stick to the professional advice from scientists and economists rather than guess work based on pure speculation.

[4468]

bex88
What’s the next step? Voluntary retirement package?
Voluntary ‘redundancy’, (I presume that’s what you mean?) comes at a cost to the employer. As those volunteers may not come from the fleets the employer would prefer to shed pilots.

How much of your own T&Cs are you prepared to sacrifice for redundancies to be VR rather than CR? (If your union are even in a position to influence your employer??

I see you are rather senior, and don’t feel under any threat? You have been ‘saved’ more than once by your colleagues. That’s great. You’re well placed to take one for the team.

[bex88]

4468. 100% I am willing to take a part time working option or job share for a fixed term.

I feel under threat. I have seniority within the company and on fleet but not in P1 status.

I can pay my bills with less money. It will not be fun but I will do that so colleagues do not loose everything.

Yes VR costs money but it is something which has been offered in the past. Surly it needs to be a option made available should anyone wish to accept it. Regardless of seniority, now is the time to come together and share the burden.

Alex Cruz’s video message does not sound good at all.

[GS-Alpha]

Alex Cruz’s video message does not sound good at all.
Agreed. I have to say I am feeling pretty vulnerable on the 747, but I resigned myself to it months ago. The minute I heard this was infectious with few or no symptoms, I knew it was already out of China and it was going to be serious on a global scale. People were saying it is just the flu, but I knew it was not. A new virus is always more of a problem than an old one such as the flu, because of the lack of resistance within the population. I suspect the rumours from months ago, of twenty jumbos being offloaded early, is bang on the money.

[PilotRoger]

more likely unpaid leaves, but yes, it's coming. brace for impact

[Riskybis]

An inevitable outcome , Yes BA makes large amounts of money BUT that’s lots of staff and lots of empty aircraft .
I often think if we didn’t have media we would all be sailing along with out a care , it’s so blown out of proportion!!

[Riskybis]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1224x1600/8d2d8053_6428_45f8_ac40_1ffe1a4f5b2d_882946bb9830d7f3eb55908 0f6db9d2656e7f2e7.jpeg

[VariablePitchP]

An inevitable outcome , Yes BA makes large amounts of money BUT that’s lots of staff and lots of empty aircraft .
I often think if we didn’t have media we would all be sailing along with out a care , it’s so blown out of proportion!!

I’m afraid that attitude is a big part of the problem. It isn’t blown out of proportion, at all.

Google the Spanish flu of 1918, if it’s anything like that then BILLIONS may be infected. The whole ‘meh, more people die of the flu’ is what will kill people because if that’s what you believe then you’re not going to be doing your hit by self isolating, washing hands constantly and being cautious. Society has to beat this collectively, any chinks in the collective and the whole defence is worthless.

[CW247]

I'm not sure about that. I'm a 'meh, more people die of the flu' type (because it's TRUE) but at the same time the majority of people are not going to let their guard down with Covid-19 especially considering the hourly barrage of news updates and statistics.

[GS-Alpha]

It would be so wonderful if it turns out that more people end up dying of flu than of Cov19, however without the so called madness going on across the world right now, there is absolutely no way that statement would hold true. Sadly, even with the current action, flu related death figures are highly likely to be dwarfed by the Cov19 related death figures over at least the next two year period. After that, the world will hopefully have developed similar levels of immunity to Cov19 as it has to flu, and the figures may well come a bit closer together. Anyone who thinks all of the economic carnage of the last month or so is simply due to some overblown media coverage of a harmless disease, really needs to pull their head out of the sand.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The language being used in the media is a huge issue. If I hear “LOCKDOWN” one more time!

Most of our home delivery from Sainsburys was marked out of stock so didn’t arrive yesterday. Popped to my local supermarket to buy the missing bits to find scenes akin to an end of the world zombie movie! Absolutely ridiculous.

This is serious for those that are vulnerable ie the elderly and/or those with serious underlying health conditions, but I’m far more concerned about the economic crisis developing. This will be catastrophic for our industry and others. Thousands of people will be made jobless shortly but meanwhile many more people will probably die from normal influenza and falling down their stairs at home. Let alone the roads! I’m not insensitive to those that will be affected by this, which includes members of my own family. But the world needs to stop and have a real think about the ramifications of alarmist coverage.

Harsh as it may sound, the world will keep on spinning once this temporary crisis is overcome and if millions are unemployed the social problems that follow will make the Corona virus outbreak look very insignificant.

And as for daft comparisons to the 1918 Spanish flu.....come off it. The world has moved on significantly since the oxygen and aspirin used a century ago!

[CLN1E]

Evening all.

Is anybody else here due to start on the 23rd? I haven’t heard a thing from BA yet, growing increasingly worried...

Thanks

[Stone Cold II]

Evening all.

Is anybody else here due to start on the 23rd? I haven’t heard a thing from BA yet, growing increasingly worried...

Thanks
Surely you’ve seen the news and therefore unfortunately have your answer? I wouldn’t be expecting to start any time soon. Good luck.

[VariablePitchP]

I'm not sure about that. I'm a 'meh, more people die of the flu' type (because it's TRUE) but at the same time the majority of people are not going to let their guard down with Covid-19 especially considering the hourly barrage of news updates and statistics.

The problem with this view is that it crumbles under the slightest questioning.

I highly doubt that after the first week of the the second world war people were sticking their heads in the sand and laughing it off on the basis that by that point no one had actually been killed yet and therefore bee stings, shark attacks and accidents involving ice cream dispensers had still killed more people, and therefore we’re a bigger threat to life?

More people die of flu than in car crashes in the U.K., I suspect you still wear a seatbelt... And more people die of old age than cancer, I still think it’s worthwhile researching cancer treatments though!

Flu is not COVID, they are totally totally different and one has zero effect on the other one. Apathy is more dangerous than the virus itself.

as for daft comparisons to the 1918 Spanish flu.....come off it. The world has moved on significantly since the oxygen and aspirin used a century ago!
Not a daft comparison at all. Swine flu, 10 years ago, infected over a billion people. Only reason there wasn’t 50 million dead as with the Spanish flu was luck as it wasn’t a serious disease. You may think that people in the 1900s lived in caves and still worshipped trees but sadly not. They had exactly the same number of ways to cure Spanish flu as we have for COVID. Zero, nada, zilch. Tell me again that it’s a daft comparison.

[clvf88]

Evening all.

Is anybody else here due to start on the 23rd? I haven’t heard a thing from BA yet, growing increasingly worried...

Thanks

I'm obviosuly not in any positon to clarify, but the most recent comms I've read suggest that all March start dates are going ahead. Good luck - we'll all need it!

[Dupre]

Evening all.

Is anybody else here due to start on the 23rd? I haven’t heard a thing from BA yet, growing increasingly worried...

Thanks

Check your PMs

[Raph737]

The problem with this view is that it crumbles under the slightest questioning.

I highly doubt that after the first week of the the second world war people were sticking their heads in the sand and laughing it off on the basis that by that point no one had actually been killed yet and therefore bee stings, shark attacks and accidents involving ice cream dispensers had still killed more people, and therefore we’re a bigger threat to life?

More people die of flu than in car crashes in the U.K., I suspect you still wear a seatbelt... And more people die of old age than cancer, I still think it’s worthwhile researching cancer treatments though!

Flu is not COVID, they are totally totally different and one has zero effect on the other one. Apathy is more dangerous than the virus itself.


Not a daft comparison at all. Swine flu, 10 years ago, infected over a billion people. Only reason there wasn’t 50 million dead as with the Spanish flu was luck as it wasn’t a serious disease. You may think that people in the 1900s lived in caves and still worshipped trees but sadly not. They had exactly the same number of ways to cure Spanish flu as we have for COVID. Zero, nada, zilch. Tell me again that it’s a daft comparison.

Just watched the guy who discovered Ebola, and helped identify Covid-19, make that comparison to Spanish flu, you’re right on the ball there, is not daft.

Other news, Will be interesting to see if Bojo will agree to the £7.5bil lifeline to UK airlines that Virgin will request on Monday. Right now I’m feeling very insecure and seriously fearing for my job....

[GS-Alpha]

It is fair to say that for most people, this will be just a mild, ranging through to nasty, respiratory infection from which they will recover, with ranging from no long term effects, to life long scarring of their lung tissue. However, given how many people would get it, the small percentage it would kill if left unchecked, would be a very big number. Now the governments of the world could just sit back and let it happen, and watch tens of millions die, or they can cause economic damage but save many many lives. There will always be some who would rather forego the economic pain and let millions of people other than themselves die, but fortunately, the governments of the world, together with their health care and economic advisors, have deemed it better for society that they do something to try and limit the fatalities. Mistakes will I am sure be made, but fortunately in most people’s world, life versus death is more important than employment or money in the bank.

[Flying the flag]

Evening all.

Is anybody else here due to start on the 23rd? I haven’t heard a thing from BA yet, growing increasingly worried...

Thanks

Im supposed to be starting on the 23rd as well and as far as I’m aware and from the call I had last week then all is ok for the 23rd....However with the doom and gloom coming from the news I’m getting increasingly worried for the week ahead.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The problem with this view is that it crumbles under the slightest questioning.

I highly doubt that after the first week of the the second world war people were sticking their heads in the sand and laughing it off on the basis that by that point no one had actually been killed yet and therefore bee stings, shark attacks and accidents involving ice cream dispensers had still killed more people, and therefore we’re a bigger threat to life?

More people die of flu than in car crashes in the U.K., I suspect you still wear a seatbelt... And more people die of old age than cancer, I still think it’s worthwhile researching cancer treatments though!

Flu is not COVID, they are totally totally different and one has zero effect on the other one. Apathy is more dangerous than the virus itself.


Not a daft comparison at all. Swine flu, 10 years ago, infected over a billion people. Only reason there wasn’t 50 million dead as with the Spanish flu was luck as it wasn’t a serious disease. You may think that people in the 1900s lived in caves and still worshipped trees but sadly not. They had exactly the same number of ways to cure Spanish flu as we have for COVID. Zero, nada, zilch. Tell me again that it’s a daft comparison.

Ok, you asked for it, it's a daft comparison. Luck had nothing to do with it. Years of medical research developing a range of broad spectrum antibiotics to treat the underlying health conditions like pneumonia thus making those infected more resilient to the virus itself was the reason 50 million didn't die.

Protect the elderly, vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions which make them susceptible to Covid at all costs of course. The rest of the world needs to carry on and quite frankly, get a bloody grip.

Back to the thread.....

I feel very sorry for those that have been caught in no mans land and only hope their current airlines allow them to rescind resignations. All I would say is that the news coming out of BA is very very sobering. I've been in 5 years or so and for the first time in my career I'm fearing for my job. Next week will probably reveal wide ranging survival measures. It's not going to be pretty.

Best of luck all.

2W2R

[Black Pudding]

Word on the street, some of our FOs from near here in the Middle East are working their notice on the basis they did have a job offer and start date at BA.

BA cancelled their start dates and put them back in a hold pool. The company here not letting them stay as not required.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Word on the street, some of our FOs from here in the Middle East are working their notice on the basis they did have a job offer and start date at BA.

BA cancelled their start dates and put them back in a hold pool. The company here not letting them stay as not required.

Absolutely awful. I feel very sorry for them. The global situation is truly unprecedented and I wonder who will be left standing when this is all over. I'm preparing myself for some major news from my employer and the CC early next week. As some of my colleagues have already said, I'm really hoping we can avoid any pilot job losses and am prepared to take a hit to achieve that if needs be.

Again, best of luck folks. This isn't gonna be pretty.

[Black Pudding]

Absolutely awful. I feel very sorry for them. The global situation is truly unprecedented and I wonder who will be left standing when this is all over. I'm preparing myself for some major news from my employer and the CC early next week. As some of my colleagues have already said, I'm really hoping we can avoid any pilot job losses and am prepared to take a hit to achieve that if needs be.

Again, best of luck folks. This isn't gonna be pretty.

I would suggest a good way of helping would be if all staff were asked to take one months unpaid leave anytime over the next 8 -12 months, then your company uses this to cut capacity by a quarter or third and hopefully this situation will be gone soon. Once this crap has gone, people will want to get away. SARS lasted 9 months.

Good luck to all

[CW247]

There's perhaps no easy way to say this but the over 60s should consider calling it quits, life, particularly at BA has been good to them. What they have, the next generation of pilots could not even hope for. Besides, I read somewhere flying in your last few years taxes the body as much as it did in the last 20.

[Douglas Bahada]

CW247.

Why not tell them to roll over and die instead.

[Tay Cough]

BA have just issued an HR-1 redundancy notice for an unspecified number of pilot redundancies.

While at face value, this is perhaps a little alarming, it’s part of a longer process involving negotiations between BA and BALPA. Previous form suggests compulsory redundancies will be avoided but obviously everything else will come to a halt for some time.

[Rottweiler22]

BA have just issued an HR-1 redundancy notice for an unspecified number of pilot redundancies.

While at face value, this is perhaps a little alarming, it’s part of a longer process involving negotiations between BA and BALPA. Previous form suggests compulsory redundancies will be avoided but obviously everything else will come to a halt for some time.

What do you reckon will come from it? Pay cuts, unpaid leave, dilution of Ts & Cs, etc?

[Busdriver01]

What do you reckon will come from it? Pay cuts, unpaid leave, dilution of Ts & Cs, etc?

I cant imagine BALPA would let them offer anything other than unpaid leave, voluntary redundancies (aimed at the top 747/777 skippers id assume) and part time options as most other carriers (all in worse financial situations) have offered.

I also cannot believe that, after the chaos and damage that was caused at the end of last year, they'd accept a permanent attack on Ts and Cs - Covid-19 aside, the company make a fortune.

[Smooth Airperator]

I hope BALPA are on the ball with this. Remember, what they take away they'll never give back. At the same time they'll justify their huge bonuses by claiming they delivered an amazing turnaround even though it will be the lowest paid who made the biggest sacrifices.

[Percula]

New joiners and the internal guys on conversion/promotion courses at TBC today have had their training terminated and been sent home, with the exception of those on the A350. Uncharted waters indeed, god knows what’s about to happen.

This is untrue. Please can we not try and spread rumours. This is stressful enough as it is.

[Plastic787]

BA today issued a FAN suspending Schedule F of the Memorandum of Agreement. Some
ongoing training courses are indeed being canned.

[Spudder]

This is untrue. Please can we not try and spread rumours. This is stressful enough as it is.


It very much is true..

[Raph737]

Rishi Sunak just announced financial help to UK businesses and airlines with a series of measures, with an initial bailout of £330Bi. I guess BA has no excuse to make pilots, or any other employee redundant now, considering their profits and cash liquidity they have plus Government cash injections to avoid redundancies.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Macron stated €300bn is to protect french jobs.....no french redundancies. The same must apply to the UK £300bn

[GKOC41]

Lot of banter in previous threads about Nigels wanting part time. Well the door should be wide open now surely? Or will guys n girls back track?
This would mitigate only a small amount I appreciate.

[wiggy]

No, the "Nigels" :rolleyes: I know who have been pushing for Part Time aren't back tracking.

Whether offering Part Time fits in with the company's plans remains to be seen.

[GS-Alpha]

Yes, once you’ve started day one, you are an employee. I don’t think anyone was suggesting people been told to go home from a course and rejoin the holding pool.

[GS-Alpha]

Sadly I very much doubt they’ll be going anywhere but short haul.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

LH SFOs doing A320 command courses have had their courses canned and are being directed RHS 320. It’s not pretty.

[student88]

They're also offering temporary secondments from the A380 to A350, killing two birds with one stone (dealing with the A380 surplus whilst filling the gaps of the poor A350 bound DEPs who had their contracts torn up..

[RogueOne]

It’s not pretty.

But it is necessary

[Black Pudding]

LH SFOs doing A320 command courses have had their courses canned and are being directed RHS 320. It’s not pretty.

I’d be thankful to have a job.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Were you two sent here by management? You sure sound like it.

[Oh gaim]

Were you two sent here by management? You sure sound like it.

Indeed. Some companies seem significantly more forthright and open than others and ultimately ours is very generous indeed.

IAG are not debt laden I thought?

[4468]

IAG are not debt laden I thought?
Nor would one imagine, they have any intention of being. IAG are utterly ruthless. Particularly with their Golden Goose, BA.

[Buter]

Were you two sent here by management? You sure sound like it.
Well, I'm pretty sure Black Pudding is P. Nye, so kinda understandable...

B

[757drivergla]

Epic....outed. Loving your work dude

[RexBanner]

Looking at the posting history of said individual I’m not convinced.

[Buter]

Was merely a joke, dear boy. The fruit was hanging too low to ignore; besides, I needed to make my yearly post!

We got to see how truly awful some people could be during last year's pay talks. I personally hope said individual never works in aviation again.

Cheers and good luck to all those affected by this stupid bug.

Buter

[RexBanner]

Was merely a joke, dear boy. The fruit was hanging too low to ignore; besides, I needed to make my yearly post!

We got to see how truly awful some people could be during last year's pay talks. I personally hope said individual never works in aviation again.

Cheers and good luck to all those affected by this stupid bug.

Buter

I certainly hope I never share a flightdeck with him. That would be.....interesting. (Careful what you wish for in the current climate too I guess!)

[SissySkinner]

After the announcement today that the government will cover 80% of an employees wage with a limit of £2500.

Is there any possibility that would include the FO’s who have had their job offers withdrawn due to Covid-19? Or do you have to be employed by the company and have your salary paid by BA and then the government pay the 80% back to BA?

Sorry if it’s a silly question, can’t really find the details anywhere at this early stage.

[WorcesterPilot]

After the announcement today that the government will cover 80% of an employees wage with a limit of £2500.

Is there any possibility that would include the FO’s who have had their job offers withdrawn due to Covid-19? Or do you have to be employed by the company and have your salary paid by BA and then the government pay the 80% back to BA?

Sorry if it’s a silly question, can’t really find the details anywhere at this early stage.

Word is IAG aren’t accepting any govt assistance including this wage thing so they look good to shareholders/the city. I was hoping the same as you but I think it’s wishful thinking. Asda, Lidl, Aldi and Maccies applications going in tomorrow, ezy fleet is grounded from Tuesday

[socks77]

After the announcement today that the government will cover 80% of an employees wage with a limit of £2500.

Is there any possibility that would include the FO’s who have had their job offers withdrawn due to Covid-19? Or do you have to be employed by the company and have your salary paid by BA and then the government pay the 80% back to BA?

Sorry if it’s a silly question, can’t really find the details anywhere at this early stage.

I should really hope so. I wander if BA could honour our start dates and place us immediately on unpaid leave?

For those of us who have a family and mortgage to pay for and no prospect of returning to our previous employers this would be a lifesaver.

[bex88]

IAG don’t have a choice on the government wage guarantee, unless of course they just make thousands redundant. That would do far more damage to them than allowing employees to accept help offered by the government.

[SissySkinner]

IAG don’t have a choice on the government wage guarantee, unless of course they just make thousands redundant. That would do far more damage to them than allowing employees to accept help offered by the government.


Agreed. Unfortunately I don't think it will help us who have had our contracts rescinded already, from my understanding the company would have to request a grant from HMRC to cover up to 80% of the employees wages.

1. I can't imagine IAG wanting to do that.
2. They would need to reinstate our rescinded contracts and put us on the payroll. A big ask of a company that are willing to withdraw your job offer just weeks before your start date.

[Berbly]

Agreed. Unfortunately I don't think it will help us who have had our contracts rescinded already, from my understanding the company would have to request a grant from HMRC to cover up to 80% of the employees wages.

1. I can't imagine IAG wanting to do that.
2. They would need to reinstate our rescinded contracts and put us on the payroll. A big ask of a company that are willing to withdraw your job offer just weeks before your start date.

worth asking though, isn’t it?

[USERNAME_]

1. I can't imagine IAG wanting to do that.



How much authority do IAG have over BACF? As they are actively looking at keeping everybody employed through this government scheme according to a letter from the union.

[WorcesterPilot]

To the kind person who offered to add me to the WhatsApp for withdrawn contract people... can’t sent over my number or the number of another chap in the same position, if you could delete the messages in your inbox so I can send them that’d be great. Thanks and apologies to everyone else for spamming the thread!

[WorcesterPilot]

Also re: not accepting govt help, I’m only going off a slide on a presentation I wasn’t meant to see outlining current operational proposals

‘BA not looking for government support to keep investor confidence high’

Make of that what you will and I tend to agree with those who have replied, but I’m just reporting what I’ve seen.

[bex88]

This should clear things up a bit. Read it all, just not the headline.

BA-Owner Has Not Asked for State Aid: CEOBy Reuters


March 16, 2020









LONDON — British Airways-owner IAG has not asked for state aid, said its CEO, as he detailed the group's response to the coronavirus crisis, including accelerating the retirement of some aircraft and possible cuts to 2021 capacity.

"I think individual airlines have been approaching governments looking for state aid, we have not done so," IAG CEO Willie Walsh said on an investor call.

"Governments would expect airlines to look at self help before they would call on governments to provide state aid."

He said that IAG would, however, make use of any general state-support for employees where it becomes available.
ADVERTISEMENT

Continue reading the main story (https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/03/16/business/16reuters-health-coronavirus-iag-ceo.html#after-story-ad-1)
The group's dividend will still be put to shareholder approval in June, Walsh said, adding that he had "nothing to add" when asked about whether a plan to buy Air Europa would still go ahead.

[SissySkinner]

From the BBC News website

‘But he added the government intervention - covering wages of up to £2,500 a month - would mean workers should be able to keep their jobs, even if their employer could not afford to pay them.

It is understood the wage subsidy will apply to firms where bosses have already had to lay off workers due to the pandemic, as long as they are brought back into the workforce and instead granted a leave of absence.’


I think its certainly worth us asking. Unless I’ve got the wrong end of the stick it’s not going to cost BA any money and it would massively help out the people who are now unemployed since having their contract withdrawn.

Fingers crossed they will understand and be willing to help.

[GS-Alpha]

it is certainly worth asking, but it probably depends what the contract you signed actually says. Unfortunately, you were never actually on the payroll, and I suspect that might be an issue.

[Heisenb3rg]

What’s the thought on getting some of that £2500 in the month of unpaid...

[hunterboy]

There does seem to be a lot of naivety displayed here. As much as BA may want you to think you are joining a big happy family, I’m afraid that hasn’t been the case for many years. You will be regarded as a cost. Many years ago, pilots were historically treated as quasi managers in terms of terms and conditions. That was firmly stopped in 2009 with the Staff travel rewrite.
Many of our colleagues also believed that we were “professionals” with a firm contract. Again, we have been disabused of that notion. We are simply “piece-workers” as this unpaid stand-down has shown. You aren’t available to work, or we don’t have work for you to do? We stop paying you.
BA is still an attractive place to work (compared to many of the other airlines), but come in with your eyes open, and be aware that on the day you join, you will have the best T&C’s that you will ever enjoy, as it will all be downhill from there.
This isn’t meant to sound negative, just be aware of what you are joining , and how IAG and the BA board will do its upmost to strip the earnings out of the company, which directly affects your salary and lifestyle. Ask around how high CAP’s are and how many days are spent at work. It is relentless. As many find out at, say EJ or RY, it isn’t sustainable over a 30 year career.

[WorcesterPilot]

There does seem to be a lot of naivety displayed here. As much as BA may want you to think you are joining a big happy family, I’m afraid that hasn’t been the case for many years. You will be regarded as a cost. Many years ago, pilots were historically treated as quasi managers in terms of terms and conditions. That was firmly stopped in 2009 with the Staff travel rewrite.
Many of our colleagues also believed that we were “professionals” with a firm contract. Again, we have been disabused of that notion. We are simply “piece-workers” as this unpaid stand-down has showed. You aren’t available to work, or we don’t have work for you to do? We stop paying you.
BA is still an attractive place to work (compared to many of the other airlines), but come in with your eyes open, and be aware that on the day you join, you will have the best T&C’s that you will ever enjoy, as it will all be downhill from there.
This isn’t meant to sound negative, just be aware of what you are joining , and how IAG and the BA board will do its upmost to strip the earnings out of the company, which directly affects your salary and lifestyle. Ask around how high CAP’s are and how many days are spent at work. It is relentless. As many find out at, say EJ or RY, it isn’t sustainable over a 30 year career.

I can guarantee pretty much everyone who’s even stuck an application into BA, never mind actually got an offer, has spoken to someone who either works there or knows someone who does, usually coupled with a myriad of captains at our current airlines telling us we’re stupid for doing it. We know what we’ve let ourselves in for, we know we’re just a number just like we are at EZY, RYR etc. We’re just trying to stay positive, not being naive.

[SissySkinner]

I can guarantee pretty much everyone who’s even stuck an application into BA, never mind actually got an offer, has spoken to someone who either works there or knows someone who does, usually coupled with a myriad of captains at our current airlines telling us we’re stupid for doing it. We know what we’ve let ourselves in for, we know we’re just a number just like we are at EZY, RYR etc. We’re just trying to stay positive, not being naive.


Couldn't agree more with Worcester. Also If you think your T's & C's are declining at BA you should see what the new COO of easyJet is trying to do. He's basically used COVID 19 as an excuse to put everyone on a Ryanair contract. No crew food, no tea or coffee, unable to refuse roster changes on report, back to full EASA FTL's, unable to refuse working into your day off, the list goes on...

[dubaiwarrior]

Rather lousy timing: Resigned too early, attempted to join BA too late, and as a final knock to the nads, too late to benefit from the benefit.