BA Direct Entry Pilot. [Archive] - Page 13

wiggy

27th Jun 2016, 14:42

Some of the comments here might have something to do with it:

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-clouds-horizon-britains-airlines-072831386.html

Personally even sceptical old me is now becoming slightly concerned about where this could lead if the current uncertainty continues...I think we're below a share price that can be explained by a bit of a readjustment and " no surprise there then" and are heading more into "OK, this is starting to feel a bit uncomfortable, you can stop now...!!"

..CW, you're more clued up on the stocks and share stuff than me - do you have any thoughts on the AFP piece?

GS-Alpha

27th Jun 2016, 15:29

I could have sworn Walsh said IAG would be unaffected by Brexit though. Yes, I can see that statement may well have been made on the basis that traffic can be moved within the group and so still effect BA greatly for instance, but if his words are true the IAG share price should not be experiencing such a violent hammering.

RexBanner

27th Jun 2016, 17:24

IAG is a Spanish registered company, right? And BA (whilst nominally British but owned by a Spanish company) don't in any case do any intra-Europe flying. So aside from the short term reduction in passengers - even if that does become reality - what exactly is the problem? Thought it would be more easyJet affected by this as per the previous post and Willie Walsh's comments.

In any case it has got me worried to the point where I've actually registered and started applications elsewhere. To be sped up or ignored as necessary.

hunterboy

27th Jun 2016, 18:01

I reckon if anybody comes out and says they know what's going to happen in the forseeable future they're having you on.
Certainly none of the political elite knew what the result was going to be and seem amazed and shocked.
I can't imagine the likes of the BA or IAG board having planned for a Brexit, and having just finished Taleb's book Black Swan, can see it is the unforeseen consequences of Brexit that are likely to scupper future plans, whether for expansion at LHR or BA.
That coupled with the fact that the second raters are about to take charge of the UK economy doesn't bode well for the future.

Chief Willy

28th Jun 2016, 00:04

Yes that article does make for worrying reading Wiggy.

On the revenue side it seems like 2 large customer bases for BA will show less tendency to travel due to Brexit. The first group are the city and business types. The current uncertainty puts corporate deals, IPOs etc on hold until there is some idea of what a future trade agreement will look like with the EU, thus there will be less demand for business travel. The other group to be affected will be UK based would-be holiday makers now less likely to travel due to the value of Sterling.

On the flip-side it is worth noting that a devalued sterling makes our flights, and our country, more affordable for foreign points of sale, and other BA markets such as connecting India-USA flows via LHR may be unaffected so it is not all bad news.

On the cost side the price of fuel (paid for in US dollars) has just shot up as a result of sterling's devaluation. There will also be significant other costs paid for in foreign currency that have now just shot up in price. But we do also earn revenues in foreign currency so this mitigates it to some extent.

Overall the analysts paint a bleak picture in the short to medium term. I wouldn't expect any immediate reaction from IAG ( apart from perhaps accelerated cost cutting and delaying capex). But if things do go south it isn't unthinkable for the company to shrink again with 744s being sent to the desert. On topic this could halt any further recruitment, apart from that required for new sickness assumptions, retirements, and EASA, although these would be far smaller numbers than required for growth.

Fingers crossed and all that.

FMS1

28th Jun 2016, 13:40

Hi all
I have a sim assessment 27th July, PM me if you have the same.

Many thanks

Run-and-break

28th Jun 2016, 18:21

These may be of interest to some of you.

British Airways Seeks Brexit Tourism Boost as Ryanair Downbeat - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/british-airways-owner-sees-tourism-boom-balancing-brexit-impact)

Brexit: British Airways owner IAG claims it won't cut UK jobs or move assets (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-british-airways-owner-iag-claims-it-wont-cut-uk-jobs-move-assets-1567913)

Pork chop express

29th Jun 2016, 19:21

.....apart from that required for new sickness assumptions, retirements, and EASA, although these would be far smaller numbers than required for growth.

" Sickness and Fatigue levels are unsurprisingly on the rise in BA (and many other airlines i'd expect) due to EASA FTL's, some fleets doing 5-6 LH trips a month which isn't sustainable long term so certainly numbers will be needed to cope with this continuing problem.

RexBanner

29th Jun 2016, 19:34

5-6 LH Trips a month. Factually correct but the annual limits stand unchanged. So yes they may be able to roster 5-6 trips in a month for a while but sooner or later in the year you are going to hit the 900 hour buffer. Sooner in this case! 90 hours a month leaves you with November and December off by my reckoning, not much number crunching involved. So no, these rosters are not sustainable even as it stands.

Flap62

30th Jun 2016, 20:32

90 hours a month is not unusual and doesn't necessarily mean two months off at the end of the year. Factor in six weeks leave and two simulator blocks/SEP etc and it all comes together.

Club World

30th Jun 2016, 20:40

Just wanted to clarify what the new verbal reasoning test entails, is it similar to the old one in respect of reading a long passage and then answering either True/False or Cannot say?

RexBanner

30th Jun 2016, 20:49

Flap62 that wasn't meant to be taken literally it was just to highlight that to all practical purposes it is completely impossible to do 90 hours month after month.

bradandwhitney

30th Jun 2016, 22:10

@cw

Yes, and apart from true/false some answers are a sentence and you have to pick which one is correct according to whats featured in the text.

What are some good resources for day 2? Thanks all!

Club World

1st Jul 2016, 10:26

BW

Thank you very much for the clarification, best of luck in the remainder of the selection process.

FullClimb

1st Jul 2016, 12:20

BW - Reading the previous 154 pages of this thread and the low down part 1 thread gives you all the preparation material you need! Good luck!

MikeAlpha320

1st Jul 2016, 20:43

Any thoughts on when application window will open again?

Any news on change of requirements or still expecting 320 TR with 500+ hours ?

MA

:ok:

binsleepen

3rd Jul 2016, 20:48

Hi all,

Just for info the BA PRIAM bidding process has just opened and will stay open for the next month. This is the system that allows current BA pilots to put in a request for a fleet transfer. It is seniority based, and takes into account forecast vacancies, retirements, part time requests, fleet growth or decline and any freezes relevant to the individual.

Bidding now is for the training year starting Jan '17 and it is worth noting that this will be the first time that those pilot who started in 2012, when recruitment started to ramp up, will be able to bid without the initial 5 year freeze. Once the bidding closes BA then allocates courses on a seniority basis and then looks at what seats it has left and recruits appropriately.

What this means in terms of numbers and LH/SH I have no idea and I suspect neither will BA until the end of the summer/ early autumn.

Regards

8029848s

14th Jul 2016, 06:00

I would not be overly pessimistic about the effect of BREXIT.

Revenue has been under pressure for a while now and the industry trend is downward at the moment.

Companies like BA will fair much better than the larger ones out there in the long run as long as Mr Cruz does not go mad.

Whilst some fixed and variable costs will go up with the weakened pound we are neutrally hedged on a number of fronts.

The 747 plan will remain unchanged. We own them, and they are full so making good money, so I do not foresee a huge change in the retirement plan for them.

Biggest threat to employees / pilots is the company itself using the present uncertainty to leverage more efficiency and cost reductions.

As a manager I told guys years ago "Go part time asap and do something that either makes you happy, or rich (not necessarily monetary) in your spare time but do not rely on BA in the future to deliver on all your needs".

My advice remains un changed.

Off on holiday.....

Hope your well Wiggy.

JazzyKex

14th Jul 2016, 07:13

It looks like the A320 campaign has just opened...it also looks like the window is quite short too, end date of 27th July!

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/584/description

pollypilot

14th Jul 2016, 08:19

[QUOTE=JazzyKex;9439321]It looks like the A320 campaign has just opened...it also looks like the window is quite short too, end date of 27th July!

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/584/description

avigator

21st Jul 2016, 19:56

Only able to apply if one can attend one of two available dates on this short notice?

angelo26

22nd Jul 2016, 12:25

Hi all
I have a sim assessment 27th July, PM me if you have the same.

Many thanks
Dear Fms1,
Hi, may I ask you when did you book the slot for the sim assessment?
I'm trying to book a sim slot since the beginning of june but on the webpage says "slots not available".

Best Regards,
Angelo26

Jack the rabbit

26th Jul 2016, 09:15

I always looked at BA but I'm not sure what the actual positives are beyond the ones of variety, large company, image. Those are low down on my personal list. Genuine question, reading though the threads it seems a common theme:-

1/900 hours pa airline. Only one in UK that does this LH
2/ changing terms, not for better with variable flight pay, bidline going
3/ New boss with cost cutting on horizon
4/ decent pay but not the best
5/ only base south east

I was reading the VS thread and it seems they get paid more and fly a lot less. People who fly for Thomas Cook, Mon, Thomson seem happy with the lifestyle. So what apart from the image and reckoned security attracts people to BA lifestyle wise? It has to be lifestyle as priority surely? Even with bidline you still fly max hours. Just seems reading its potentially worse than likes of Vs or charter operators. Has anyone joined BA recently and regretted it?

Please don't take this as a dig, I'm interested. I considered applying but I am not sure it's for me and for the reasons above so interested to hear what those on t' inside thought of these things.

hunterboy

26th Jul 2016, 11:24

Hi Jack, all good questions to ask. If more guys thought like you, the T&C's would probably rise. Sadly, if I was a young thrusting pilot with a few thousand hours and a decent type rating, I would be looking East. The way aviation is regarded and taxed in the Uk and EU, it is a dying industry. For a semi decent lifestyle and decent money , stay out of the U.K. By decent money , I'm talking 100K+ take home.
Many of us in BA do ok because we joined 20+ years ago, and are towards the top of the seniority lists for bidding. Many live abroad, paying reduced levels of taxation.
If I had other options, I don't think I'd join BA again, knowing I'd be stuck in the SE.

Pork chop express

26th Jul 2016, 12:27

Hi Jack

some really good questions and having been at BA now 18 months i'd say a lot of your assumptions are right!

I'm LH and never worked so hard in my career and the tiredness is a killer if you aren't the type that can just sleep anywhere!

EASA has certainly made getting good chunks of time off a lot harder add to which if you leave a gap of more than 3 days you risk being forced assigned anyway! Lots of Trip 2 days off trip 2 days off trip 2 days off and after a while you just don't feel recovered. :sad:

Bidline going who knows how the new system will be until it comes in but the sceptical side of me thinks it will be much like a Blind Line with very little control especially if junior but time will tell. :E

The new boss definitely has cost cutting on the agenda how much of that will come our way no one knows but one of the biggest things as a newbie in BA that surprised me is how low morale is on the line, i guess for many the reality of being in BA and not being immune to the downward changes going on is starting to sink in for many. That said the people you fly with are mostly great and no different from any of the other airlines I've worked at.

I'd say the command gradient is shallow at BA you are given a lot of responsibility on your sector as an FO which i think is good for progression.

If you want a big corporate and the security that goes with it then i guess BA gives that a big tick but i came from a bucket and spade company where the airport was 35 mins away and i was home every night and felt like my flying skills were much sharper than they are now! Never felt as tired as i do now and was Parked back outside my house within 55 mins of shutting engines down, now I'm lucky if i am at my car within that time. :{

All i'd say is BA certainly is not the holy grail it once was but you know that already, but many don't and i think once the honeymoon period is over some will be in for disappointment. The current work load is not sustainable full time in my opinion unless you want serious health issues or death early into your retirement which i guess is why many are going earlier than planned at the top! I flew with a skipper who was 75% a few months back, he said he's working harder 75% than he was full time 6 years ago! I have a mate at VS and he doesn't work anywhere near as hard. I guess do what works for you. Hope that helps. :ok:

wiggy

26th Jul 2016, 12:53

Interesting questions from Jack, and I wouldn't quibble with the responses.

I flew with a skipper who was 75% a few months back, he said he's working harder 75% than he was full time 6 years ago!

In my experience that sounds very credible.

The current work load is not sustainable full time in my opinion

Judging by the numbers trying to get onto one of the part time contracts you are not alone in that belief. The ability to sustain the full time workload is becoming a major concern for many, in both seats.

Cliff Secord

26th Jul 2016, 15:36

Interesting the 900 hour point. Some great stuff from BA people above.

Far from me to say I know about BA's approach being a cantankerous fart, but they've always struck me as being a very safe, cautious lot riddled with an approach not to push up to fixed safety limits. Presume like most they don't like pushing to limits on anything regularly - it's bad practice. Odd then that they regularly and decisively push crew to the legal limit on hours.

Hotel Mode

26th Jul 2016, 17:28

Before we get too hung up on the 900 hrs thing. On the 4 long haul fleets there are only 82 pilots over 800 hrs in the 11 months to 31st Aug (ie within a fighting chance of hitting 900 before 30th Sept). Some of them probably have leave etc that will keep them well below.

That's out of 2800 odd pilots.

There's only around 300 who'll even be over 750hrs in the same 11 months.

It was much worse a few years ago. 1/3 of the 747 fleet were 'on the list' at one point

wiggy

26th Jul 2016, 17:51

It's not just the 900 hours though is it HM?

There's the whole associated issue of Force assign and it's effect on people's the ability to generate predictable and/or usable block of days off that is causing grief for some in their off duty lives, hence the some of the increased demand for Part Time.

There certainly seems to be an increase of days at work on some fleets (Short haul Duty Rig)....

Northern Monkey

26th Jul 2016, 18:14

I'm now in the top 20% of the Airbus RHS and about to move on, but I can report that life as an SFO at BA on short haul is a lot better than other airlines I've worked at. On around 750 hours at the moment although that's less than most.

The main thing for me about BA is the roster stability. I've been force assigned once (my fault for messing up the bid) and other than that its rock solid. The only time it changes is when trips are taken off you for training and they normally apologise for that!

Oh and I don't know how many thousands of pounds of club class travel my wife and I have enjoyed at staff rates, but its a LOT.

So it still does have perks... although other posters are right to point out that there is increasing pressure on terms and conditions at BA.

Twiglet1

26th Jul 2016, 18:42

Nice to see reasoned discussion for a change. Its almost like Jeremy Corbyn at PM's question time

Jack the rabbit

26th Jul 2016, 21:19

I appreciate the replies, it is always best to obtain opinions from those actually working for a company.

I must say I see some positives hinted at but I'm suprised at the little amount of people who say overwhelmingly they have a better quality of life as a result. To me, joining a new company is a big thing that presents large challenges, stressors and gives my family a slight headache so it needs to reward in quality of life. That's why I go to work, so always is my priority.

For a lot of years I always had the opinion that BA would provide a good quality of life and I aspired to join. But I've done some serious digging and tired to ask some searching questions. I tried to get away from the temptation to brush over niggles and wrote down as factually as I could what the draw backs and positives were as if it were a company that was unheard of, and was quite surprised. So suprised I did it again! Hence the reason I asked. I really do appreciate the honest input.

Thanks all.

Cheers

RexBanner

26th Jul 2016, 21:33

Shouldn't Force Assign become a thing of the past under JSS? However no one knows exactly quite what we've voted for with that..

Northern Monkey

26th Jul 2016, 22:02

Hotel Mode

26th Jul 2016, 22:32

Under JSS, force assign becomes known as "optimisation" I believe. But since it all happens before the rosters are published you never get to know how good your roster was before it was "optimised". You can't mourn the loss of something you never knew about I suppose! At least that is my understanding of it.

The difference is that optimisation looks at your bid groups and fulfills them as much as possible. Whereas Roster assign couldn't give a flying **** what you wanted if it can insert a trip in the gap you skilfully built.

With JSS, If your last bid group says I need 13/14 off for your brothers wedding and that's it, then, the chances of you working it even post optimisation are slim to none. The rest of your roster may look horrendous, but, let's face it it's the day off we want really, not the nights in Vegas or Cape Town.

Bid group 1 is your dream roster, bid group X is the back stop. Jeppesen don't think we'll get to bid group X.

FlyingTinCans

27th Jul 2016, 07:06

Has the new variable pay system started yet? Its common knowledge that the bottom of BA's pay scale isn't the best, any evidence of it being made better or worse by this new system?

RexBanner

27th Jul 2016, 07:33

wiggy

27th Jul 2016, 07:37

H M

Good post - Unlike eMaestro I hope JSS is delivered 100% as promised (both by BALPA and the company) and works as you describe.

bringbackthe80s

27th Jul 2016, 08:35

I've taken home consistently over £4000 a month since I joined, highest around £4,500. That's post the highest possible pension contribution and without any overtime whatsoever. If that "isn't the best" then I just want to ask, where exactly are you going to get more than that as a junior FO in the UK nowadays?
£4000 is a fantastic salary and much more than the average person makes for sure. Now, what £4000 will get you in the London area (especially with a family) is a different story and I think this is why people suggested to leave the UK for better money, many places (even in the EU) have lower taxes for pilots, and most likely a quite different and less expensive government benefits system.
Having said that, to stay or not in the UK is a totally personal choice and need, I guess looking at contracts paying 3-4 times as much for the same or less work make some people wonder. As it' s been said many times before, it's just not that different anymore...go ask a 30 years captain if he would fly 900 hrs a year in the 80s in BA and you' ll get the drift.

nrn

27th Jul 2016, 10:01

Icanseeclearly

27th Jul 2016, 11:10

Thoughts from someone on the 320 (LHR) who joined BA 18 months ago.

I am thoroughly enjoying my time at BA, this is after 16 years military flying and 8 years in a low cost airline.

I am nowhere near the 900 hrs, in the last 12 months (July to July) I have flown 675hrs.

Like Rex above I am taking home on average £4100 after tax and max pension contribution, better than I was earning as a skipper at my previous airline.

Having a say on my roster is invaluable, I am already 40% off the bottom of the seniority list and got my third choice of tripline for September, how will JSS affect it? Who really knows but if (and it's a big if) it works as advertised then it should also allow us the ability to influence our rosters, certainly something most airlines don't allow.

I commute form Scotland and so far this year have averaged 10 days at home a month, when working I bid for trips which means little or no time in Heathrow hotels.

E-maestro allows us to use our bank to swop trips, drop trips and pick up overtime - again something most places don't allow.

Leave is generous and split evenly across the year so summer holidays with kids are possible if that's your thing - again in some airlines it's not possible to take leave over the summer period.

Crew food, crew hotels and time down route are good (there are some min rest trips but these are few and far between).

Staff travel is superb, as someone who not only commutes but also travels extensively it's saving me a fortune, we get concessions, hotline and standby travel not only on BA but most of the world airlines.

Yes there are issues, if the south east doesn't suit then commuting is possible, certainly from within Europe, is BA what it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago, of course not but show me a company in any line of business that is.

How is Alex Cruz going to affect the airline, who knows but from what I have been told he understands the brand and obviously wants to make it a success, that said it is a business and he is responsible to the shareholders, I don't believe we will be too affected at the sharp end (unlike those in the back rooms).

BA is a huge company with fantastic opportunities (fleet changes, training, management, recruiting etc) with a huge route network, like I said at the top I am enjoying it thoroughly that said its horses for courses and wouldn't suit everyone.

NEDude

27th Jul 2016, 13:05

How long is the A320 captain upgrade? Is upgrading done just on seniority or are other factors involved? How quickly could an experienced A320 captain take to get to the left seat?

Megaton

27th Jul 2016, 16:33

How quickly could an experienced A320 captain take to get to the left seat?

All based on seniority, company requirements and the bidding aspirations of those more senior than you. In practice, at the moment, Airbus commands have taken as little as a year from joining the company.

Saab0409

27th Jul 2016, 20:35

Some really excellent posts highlighting the pros and cons of BA. It'll still be a huge step up personally and I'll be even switching from left to right seat.

I'm very happy to be in the hold pool, just over 2 months and 3 weeks now, anybody got any offers recently or a tad more news? Cheers!

Tay Cough

28th Jul 2016, 10:21

All based on seniority, company requirements and the bidding aspirations of those more senior than you. In practice, at the moment, Airbus commands have taken as little as a year from joining the company.

... and passing the course. The above only entitles you to the course. The upgrade is dependent on ability.

Saab0409

28th Jul 2016, 12:07

Actually received an email from BA recruitment today, all vacancies are now filled for 2016. Next update will be around September for vacancies opening up in 2017 after they have analyzed and planned all the internal transfers/training. Would they have the same type of demand in terms of numbers of pilots externally required? I believe 2016 has been an extraordinary busy year in terms of external recruitment.

RHS

28th Jul 2016, 16:42

I think it all depends on where you're coming from, as I personally came from a quite unstable company, with simply unmanageable rostering, I have come to BA and I think life is pretty easy.

Pluses at BA:

Decent skippers
Good Pay
An absolutely bullet proof agreement, roster changes and general messing around are a thing of the past. This was my major bug bear at my last operator
Lots of holidays and time off, it seems like I am always about to have leave or time off
12/13 days off a month, compared to my previous 8/10
Easily the most secure job in UK aviation
Good Pension
Fantastic staff travel
A fair seniority system.
Variety of routes
Good training.
I'll say it, some very decent, fair managers.
Variety of types,
An ops department who will ask favours, but also give them back. I have done them a few favours (coming in a little early, staying behind, swapping a trip to help them out) but they have in turn gotten me a best mates wedding off, taken exceptionally good care of me when I had a sick family member, swapped some leave, given me the trips i've wanted on reserve, you get the idea.

Negatives at BA:

Huge organisation and you can be very anon (some people like this)
Morale can be an issue, again nothing compared to how negative things can when you're about to be made redundant, or dealing with constant roster changes.
Uncertainty around JSS and management plans
Only SE base, this is really the only big downside for me, I would really love to be based closer to home up north.

Of course these are big issues for other guys, and I'm sure these negatives differ for other people, but these are purely as I have found them.

As for 900 hours, I would say I will do about 800 this year, summer is pretty heavy, but winter seemed very easy. I would agree the current manpower levels will undoubtedly need to be adjusted, but I guess that's why they are recruiting?

All in all a very good move FOR ME. I wouldn't come to BA just because its "the best job in UK aviation" because if being based in Manchester flying the 737 and being home every night is something you enjoy, BA isn't for you.

Pork chop express

28th Jul 2016, 21:02

Very good post RHS..

And I'll second the "I'll say it, some very decent, fair managers."

I have a son with special needs and have needed some support twice in 18 months for my son and my fleet manager could not have been more supportive or helpful, i can literally pick the phone up and call him which is a big plus. If you have a genuine problem i think BA are very good indeed, in my experience anyway.
Being such a big organisation the problem can be knowing who to call!! :confused:

And if you don't like being away from home BA is definitely not for you!

Desk-pilot

31st Jul 2016, 08:03

I'm about a year in on shorthaul having spent several years at a regional airline. There's lots of positives to BA which have been covered above like the generally nice Captains and crew, the roster stability etc. I have to say the biggest thing I miss about my old employer was the fact that in a smaller operation with regional bases you are flying with your mates everyday and build a really strong network of pals.

I certainly miss driving into work and flying with guys who I actually meet up with outside work, who I have around with their families for Sunday lunch etc or go for bike rides and pub lunches with. BA can feel really anonymous and isolating and it's literally rare to fly with the same guy twice within a year. It's taken quite some time for me to start to get to grips with this but then I'm a people person and building good relationships with people at work has always been important to me.

It's not that the people aren't nice because they are but starting a new job and a new type and feeling like you're the new boy at school every single day certainly gets wearing so just keep that in mind. It's not something I gave any thought to before I joined but it's been the single biggest challenge at least for me. I still miss the 'sixth for common room' banter of my old crewroom, the wit, the mockery and the flirting with an extensive array of delightful young cabin crew!

No regrets though and I still walk around that union jack tailfin and still feel genuinely thrilled that I achieved my boyhood dream and made it here! I feel proud to work for BA for sure and I love the strong customer service ethic that runs through everything they do i.e. I think they still really care about the catering, the customer service etc and for me that's an important element to the job - I like to work for a company whose product I believe in.
Hope that's helpful but it is a point I think nobody else has made amidst all the talk about bidline, days off, hotels and salaries.

Desk-pilot

wiggy

31st Jul 2016, 09:10

I think that's fair comment, certainly one shouldn't join BA expecting a crewroom culture (there isn't one..a crewroom that is, although as you know there is a coffee bar of sorts in crew report) - if you crave banter you either have to hope a group of your mates join BA with you, or you may well have to cultivate a peer group outside BA.

BA can feel really anonymous and isolating and it's literally rare to fly with the same guy twice within a year.

That can be the case, and can have it's advantages, but it also can depend on the fleet - I can't speak for shorthaul but certainly on longhaul one consequence of the seniority system can be the same subset of folks going to the same destinations...be that NBO, LOS or SIN.. doing the late JFK...etc etc. Depending on bidding and preferences certainly on Longhaul you can end up flying with the same colleagues several times a year.

mr ripley

31st Jul 2016, 16:10

Agreed,

Been with the company for almost 11 years all on the 777. I take pleasure in going to work and flying my roster as published or more likely 'as swapped'.

I bid to go to the same places (out of about 55 different 777 destinations) and get to socialise with the same group of people, who like those places. Reserve is an eye opener when you get to fly with the rest of the fleet to all those places you probably forgot about.

Now have a to pop into Heathrow and finally decide my bid for 2017, remain on the 777, go to the 787 or Airbus Command? Other choices are available!

Pistolpete47

3rd Aug 2016, 08:18

Have a Sim date in August. Anybody else in the same boat want to chat about tips etc? Pm me.

NEDude

4th Aug 2016, 07:35

How long does it take to hear the results of the first assessment? Had it recently and have not heard yet.

LondonLenny

4th Aug 2016, 10:23

Hi all, I have an assessment on the 9th Aug.
Has anyone who sat it recently got any feedback or advice?

Len.

Boebus720

5th Aug 2016, 12:02

Anyone used PMflight before going in to the SIM assessment?

Any feedback appreciated as I have the SIM in August, thanks.

When is your assessment, mine is in August as well. Do you know if the 757 has definitely been retired as a sim option?

Dupre

5th Aug 2016, 17:10

student88

5th Aug 2016, 23:34

I'm an FO A320 LHR and I've flown no more than 750 hrs in the last 365 days.

A340Yumyum

6th Aug 2016, 02:54

'Do you know if the 757 has definitely been retired as a sim option?'

I think you realllllly need to do some homework, if you are asking this question.

VJW

6th Aug 2016, 09:10

To be fair though- the sim notes they provide for day 3 includes the 757 which is why he's probably asking..

Phantom4

6th Aug 2016, 12:18

Many military colleagues have used PM Flight with positive results and not just BA assessment.

A340Yumyum

8th Aug 2016, 15:18

To be fair though- the sim notes they provide for day 3 includes the 757 which is why he's probably asking..

Nope, to be fair, he should read through this thread........homework.....

Alanrobins01

8th Aug 2016, 16:09

@A340Yumyum, he does ask a perfectly reasonable question and if you don't want to answer it, don't waste your time replying back to him, you only put off our fellow colleagues within the industry from asking for advise. The answer to that question is not definitively answered within this forum. However, even if it was, I don't see that reading through 157 pages of Pprune is doing your homework and taking 'goodness knows who wrote that article' as gospel.

tommytailwind

8th Aug 2016, 17:48

757 sim has definitely gone and its space is now occupied by a newly built 787 sim. Assessment is only on the 747 now.

Twiglet1

8th Aug 2016, 19:37

757 is dstill in use, at Fed Ex

Pistolpete47

14th Aug 2016, 14:09

Boebus, Pistolpete, LondonLenny,

It seems that as you have just made your first posts, you will not be able to receive PMs yet.

However I am interested to ask how you managed to book sim dates in August? I have been checking at least daily for nearly 4 months and have not seen a single date available on the system... am I doing something wrong or do they just get snapped up that fast?

Ta!

Hey Dupre, sorry about the late reply. Got sent the Sim dates in an email direct from recruitment. Replied straight away and got a date. Didn't log in to the system at all.

Reckon you should email them to check in and let them know you are still keen.

binsleepen

14th Aug 2016, 23:21

MSN001

Very unlikely until all the bid results have been analysed and fleet plans and course requirements for next year firmed up. So end of this year at the earliest. I suspect that there will be quite a few SH FO's with successful LH bids this year. They should get courses before any LH DEPs are recruited.

Regards

RexBanner

14th Aug 2016, 23:29

And rightly so!

AFrotary

15th Aug 2016, 18:15

I heard that BA has a direct entry path for UK military aviators.
Does anyone know if there is also a possibility for foreign military aviators to join BA without heavy fixed wing experience?

Icanseeclearly

15th Aug 2016, 18:35

AFrotary

Don't think so the website says

"If you are a service pilot in the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, Royal Marines or Army Air Corps you can apply via the Managed Path"

Seems pretty specific but probably worth a try

deeceethree

15th Aug 2016, 20:31

Does anyone know if there is also a possibility for foreign military aviators to join BA without heavy fixed wing experience?
I am pretty certain that any such application would be discarded, without a further glance. BA's stated criteria for DEP, with regard to previous experience, are pretty specific. Ignoring them is a sure way to getting your application binned.

MackTucker

16th Aug 2016, 07:26

I am pretty certain that any such application would be discarded, without a further glance. BA's stated criteria for DEP, with regard to previous experience, are pretty specific. Ignoring them is a sure way to getting your application binned.

You my friend are 100% incorrect.

wiggy

16th Aug 2016, 07:50

I heard that BA has a direct entry path for UK military aviators.
Does anyone know if there is also a possibility for foreign military aviators to join BA without heavy fixed wing experience....

Hopefully somone who has benefitted for "Managed Path" will have chapter and verse but as I recall it Managed Path was the result of some discussion between some UK airlines and the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD), and certainly initially the MOD/UK individual services facilitated and administered the scheme internally. See the bottom of this page:

RAF Learning Forces - Flying Training (http://www.raf.mod.uk/raflearningforces/courseinfo/flyingtrg.cfm)

......An MOD scheme has been established with airline and aviation related companies. It provides targeted assistance in entering the civil sector, which eases the transition process and encourages a longer Service flying career for RAF pilots. All service pilots, of 32 years of age or above, who are serving on a Permanent Commission (or equivalent), are eligible to register with the scheme. Military intranet users should access GAI 1028 ......

mr ripley

16th Aug 2016, 08:00

Quite correct. It is a retention scheme to allow British Military pilots to take the initial parts of selection and then just the simulator in the final months before leaving. The idea is to stop pilots leaving the military early in fear of missing out on selection.

AFrotary

16th Aug 2016, 10:04

Thanks for the info!

Sounds like a good deal for UK service men, they can count themselfs lucky.
In most places in Europe ex-mil is treated the same as just out of flightschool newbies.

Wirbelsturm

18th Aug 2016, 20:35

AFrotary,

Unfortunately you will have to provide the full DEP requirements for an application and BA will not look at your military experience 'per se'. As discussed above the DEP 'Managed Path' was an agreement between the military and the CAA as to the necessary requirements of ex military pilots to gain (f)ATPL status. This allows the applicant to interview whilst still in the ATPL training process and whilst still leaving the MOD.

BA are willing to forgo the necessary licensing requirements for interview only (successful applicants will still be required to hold valid EASA licenses for the sim checks) to allow UK military personnel to attend the interview stage without the licenses being 'in hand' so to speak.

You can speak to your governing body to see if there are allowable exemptions for you through your authorities but you will need to attend an interview with the (f)ATPL(A) in hand I'm afraid.

Mizar

19th Aug 2016, 17:01

Hi All,
Any dep expecting sim session soon interested in some preparation and splitring costs. Please pm me
Mizar

Saab0409

19th Aug 2016, 22:03

Courses being postponed by at least 2 months for DEP who received a date? Anymore news on the inside? Is this because of crystal results?

no sponsor

25th Aug 2016, 15:23

I think slowing down courses for DEPs after the summer was always the plan. There's a very long list of moves from both LH and SH fleets to the 787 and other LH fleets, which are due to take place between now and the end of the year. It was the same pattern last year.

A340Yumyum

26th Aug 2016, 14:32

It's purely because the training department(s) are working at max capacity.

chocolateracer

26th Aug 2016, 20:51

Around 170 to be recruited next year (always was a planned slow recruitment year) and then between 250-300 a year for the 4 years after that. All is good.

ManUtd1999

26th Aug 2016, 20:56

2017 is the only year in the foreseeable future when no (or maybe 1?) LH aircraft are due to be delivered so slower recruitment would be expected. 250+ a year for 4 years seems optimistic though!

chocolateracer

26th Aug 2016, 20:57

Retirements and part time....

wiggy

27th Aug 2016, 06:26

250+ a year for 4 years seems optimistic though!

Here's part of the reason recruitment will go up significantly:

By sheer coincidence I was going through some files at home yesterday and came across the letter the company sent in 2006 detailing changes to compulsory retirement ages for pilots. The ability to work on as a pilot at BA to age 65 took place 1st Oct 2006..

I'll let you all do the maths, but would add that when demography meant retirements picked up just prior to the 2006 change the status lists on Bidpacks made interesting reading (i.e highly fluid).

Club World

28th Aug 2016, 11:54

Not sure if its accurate but I was told that a new Pilot Manger will be taking over so I guess thi smay slow future DEP recruitment.

Alanrobins01

28th Aug 2016, 12:37

On the PPruNe forum for the BA FPP, Lindsay Craig has said and I quote "it's time for my recruitment wings to take a break! After 1000 pilots recruited I'm handing over to a new manager at the end of this month, so she'll be looking after things from thereon in." I'm not sure though Club World that that implies a slowdown in DEP recruitment.

RexBanner

28th Aug 2016, 12:44

The current Pilot Recruitment Manager is indeed leaving however, as Wiggy has said there is a continuing need for pilots at BA for the foreseeable not least because of the retirements. It's just going to be a different person in charge of it, the need will still be there and won't (shouldn't) be affected.

TopBunk

29th Aug 2016, 06:37

I agree with Rex. The number of pilots required in BA is driven by lots of different things (retirements, part time working, avaliable slots, business plans, numbers of aircraft in different fleets and crewing ratios, training capacity, simulator availability, projected sickness levels, rostering systems, etc).

The Pilot Recruitment Manager and his team run the numbers and parameters and eventually come up with the plan (which varies frequently) in conjunction with BALPA. This plan includes recruitment.

In practice, replace person A with person B and you end up with the plan. The personality won't change the plan as much as you imply, the other factors will have a greater impact.

Club World

29th Aug 2016, 16:41

Ok that's good then, I guess one of his two deputies will most likely takeover and carry on from previously unless they decide to change the whole selection process

angelo26

30th Aug 2016, 20:16

Hi All!

Would be possible to have any feedback from someone who has recently attended the sim session??
thank you very much in advance!
Regards

Angelo26

champair79

30th Aug 2016, 20:33

The new pilot recruitment manager will be a non-pilot on an office contract rather than a management pilot like Lindsay was. I don't think it was entirely Lindsay's decision to stand down. It's all part of 'streamlining' the business under the new CEO.

Champ

RexBanner

31st Aug 2016, 07:02

wiggy

31st Aug 2016, 07:42

Not saying I agree with it, but I've heard the opinion expressed well before our current CEO arrived that it was a waste of resources to have a pilot holding a management post that could be performed by a non pilot. Basically the opinion expressed was that a Pay Point XX pilot should flying the line, not sat at a desk.

Edit to add: To avoid any misunderstanding - Personally I think manager pilot recruiting should be a pilot, but I'm not an accountant.

Club World

31st Aug 2016, 09:31

Yes I agree it would be appropriate to have a actual "pilot" taking over the Pilot recruitment and not some HR person, I guess this non pilot will have people doing cartwheels and tunnel building as part of the pilot selection process in due course that is if they change the current selection process, at least with LC and his team you could chat to them directly.

champair79

31st Aug 2016, 12:03

I would have thought replacing someone doing two jobs, having them go back to their day job and getting someone else in to do the other job on a full time basis was the polar opposite of streamlining?

You would think. As wiggy alluded to, whether LC was sat at Waterside or flying the line, he still took up a sim slot every 6 months regardless of how many hours flying he carried out. The new CEO views this as an inefficient use of resources.

Personally, I agree with wiggy. You want the head of pilot recruitment to be a pilot. How much difference to the bottom line is it really going to make vs the quality of candidates recruited and how BA are perceived in the industry?

Champ

EMB-145LR

31st Aug 2016, 13:40

LC was superb. Everything you want in a pilot recruiter. To have a pilot heavily involved in the process was excellent. He steered the ship very well. Thankfully I believe our pilot selectors will still be involved in the overall process though, namely during the interview phase and of course the final sim. So all is not lost.

FullClimb

14th Sep 2016, 14:33

Has there been any further movement in the holding pool?

Are days two and three still being held?

JulietSierra6

14th Sep 2016, 15:55

As far as I know, no.

We were told a few weeks ago there was to be no more courses to be allocated this year. Disappointing having been in the pool nearly 6 months but the need to sort out internal bids first is of course understandable. 2017 plans should be finalised by early to mid October so hopefully we will know more then. I know through friends a few sim sessions are still to be completed, no idea about day 2.

MikeAlpha320

16th Sep 2016, 18:17

Anyone got the sim on 21 Sep afternoon slot?

PM me!

320Airbus

19th Sep 2016, 10:48

Anyone got a sim week beginning 26th sept??

PM me if you do :)

VJW

20th Sep 2016, 12:04

FYI- few weeks ago prior to my sim, BA emailed me with the details of my sim partner who wanted to get in touch and gave permission for them to forward his phone number and email. Might have better luck trying that, rather then using prune ;)

Mizar

23rd Sep 2016, 12:19

Anybody waiting for october slots has been able to book them since yesterday?

angelo26

24th Sep 2016, 17:44

Hi all!
I am waiting to book a sim.
Any suggestions on to how to book it??
I got an email about 3 weeks ago about the new platform.
I did all the required steps but still no news.
thanks for the help
Best Regards
Angelo

Love_joy

25th Sep 2016, 19:50

Anyone know with reasonable certainty how many are in the pool? And approx SH/LH mix?*

*fully aware postings could be to any fleet

E170

29th Sep 2016, 12:07

80 Pilots are waiting for their Sim Slots.
I am already waiting for 2.5 month now.

E170

29th Sep 2016, 12:26

Ladies and Gents,
I just started to prepare myself for my upcoming Sim Screening.
There are quite some diverse informations out there concerning the program.
I would appreciate, if someone who just attended to the screening could contact me per pm.
Anyway I am open for any tips and advices.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Smokie

2nd Oct 2016, 07:33

Anyone have an idea as to when the recruitment will be open again?
Can't find anything on their website. A link a couple of posts a few pages (308) back shows
Vacancy Closed.

wiggy

2nd Oct 2016, 07:53

Word on the street is all is on hold until the full business plan is announced...sometime soon.....

Without going into exact details current thought is there will be ( very low) three figure DEP recruitment, timing of recruitment unknown.

RexBanner

2nd Oct 2016, 08:19

Wiggy is right but it's also worth pointing out again (as has been mentioned many times recently in this thread) that 2017 was always going to be a comparatively slow recruitment year (measured against 2015 & 2016 anyway). The large numbers resume from 2018 onwards.

VJW

2nd Oct 2016, 09:13

Guess it's a good time to have recently been told you're swimming then ;)

polepilot

2nd Oct 2016, 12:33

Cant tell if the last comment is sarcasm, none the less as someone who recently started swimming i dont know if i should be worried......

FullClimb

2nd Oct 2016, 12:55

As a fellow swimmer I can't say I feel too confident about the situation. The recent silence is quite deafening. Surely once the bids are sorted whenever this month, there will be a much better idea?

wiggy

2nd Oct 2016, 14:13

Surely once the bids are sorted whenever this month, there will be a much better idea?

Perhaps, but as mentioned earlier I don't think you'll actually hear anything until Alex Cruz has unveiled the business plan. FWIW I think the sentiment is that extraction from the pool and further DEP recruiting will happen, but at the moment no one knows when.

Saab0409

2nd Oct 2016, 14:47

Any idea when that might happen Wiggy? The unveiling of the business plan? Thank you very much for any info, for some mid to long term swimmers, approaching 6 months now, it's an interesting scenario. Keeping in mind the 12 month limit.

VJW

2nd Oct 2016, 14:48

Sorry if my comment sounded sarcastic. If 2017 is a year with less recruitment than the last few years, then being told you're already swimming at the end of 2016 is a good thing isn't it? At the interview in July they told us there weren't any job's until 2017 (apart from a few A320 courses for type rated people). So I'm most definitely not worried. In fact if recruitment opens again in 2017, all the swimmers should feel confident. I doubt BA would have 500 people in the pool for only 150 positions they knew they had. What would be the point in the time and investment on their part. I know that after 3 attempts I'm just over the moon to finally be 'swimming!'

(PS. My comment was based on my own experience, having only been in the pool a month- I didn't know there are people already in the pool for 6 months or more)

wiggy

2nd Oct 2016, 15:19

Any idea when that might happen Wiggy? The unveiling of the business plan?

No idea other than "soon", but I'm not the best at keeping an ear to the ground when it comes to "The City" stuff, hopefully somebody more clued up than me will be along with an answer soon..

Smokie

3rd Oct 2016, 05:36

I have been trying to find current Salary scales and get directed to "Glassdoor" which actually is not very helpful or user friendly.

Anyone got other ideas of where this info is or is it top secret?
Thanks for any help in advance.:)

nrn

3rd Oct 2016, 07:07

We don't want Alex Cruz to find out so we keep it a secret :).

Take home pay for a new FO on LH is between 3500 and 4500 gbp after tax. (Depends on how much you fly etc)

kirungi1

4th Oct 2016, 13:07

I know that after 3 attempts I'm just over the moon to finally be 'swimming!'

VJW, Congratulations and the very best of luck! However, what did you do differently on your third attempt? :ok:

Rougueg

4th Oct 2016, 13:26

Dear All,

I would be most grateful of any information or tips people would be willing to provide about the BA Sim assessment. PM or public post.
Just had the opportunity to attend next week become available.

VJW

4th Oct 2016, 13:32

I passed the verbal on day 1. Was the only thing holding me up. Interview and sim both passed on first attempt

wiggy

5th Oct 2016, 16:15

According to Union sources today the aforementioned business plan should be made public some time in November....

That was about the only non-controversial/good news bit of the news letter I could find....:hmm:

Edit to add after rereading some more info this AM: Just be warned that following recent developments unless the union takes a stand ( and I'm sceptical) we are fast becoming " autorostered" to 900 hours per annum, ..... with little control over days off, regardless of hours worked in the month or previous month ( i.e. banked hours), Bidline is becoming a vague memory, especially for shorthaul.

Be advised that this isn't just an old f**t's grumble, of relevance to prospective DEPs is the fact is that for the first time we are hearing recent joiners starting to gripe publically (via Union and/or other comms) over hours worked/days off/roster predictability verses their previous employer - who was often a LoCo.

PressTheTit

6th Oct 2016, 14:43

VJW

6th Oct 2016, 18:46

Personally I've no idea- my 500 above wasn't me trying to guess, it was more to help make a point. As you can only stay in the pool for 12 months, I think it's unlikely they'd have more in the pool now then jobs available for the upcoming year...

2 Whites 2 Reds

6th Oct 2016, 19:32

wiggy

"Be advised that this isn't just an old f**t's grumble, of relevance to prospective DEPs is the fact is that for the first time we are hearing recent joiners starting to gripe publically (via Union and/or other comms) over hours worked/days off/roster predictability verses their previous employer - who was often a LoCo."

Thank god it's not just me. I'm a relatively recent joiner and have bumped into a large number of colleagues that joined around the same time or later than me who all feel the same. Many of us at the bottom feel very let down at the moment. I've been in little over a year and yet in that time I've watched both Bidline and Fixed FPA being whipped away. And now BALPA choose to pick a fight over things that affect those on a the jumbo and trainers while highlighting in the same letter that 25% of the pilot workforce have been in 5 years or less. Unreal really. The negativity around the place is overwhelming and it's not limited to either side of the flight deck door. Many of our ground based colleagues are also feeling the pinch.

I have to say, having aspired towards and frankly worked BLOODY hard to get into BA, it's all a bit disappointing at the moment. I feel like a spoiled brat saying that while there are many on this forum who'd give their right nut for my seat. Many will undoubtedly pipe up and say "if you don't like it, leave. I'll have your job!". I accept that. But right now, with all the negativity and racing to the bottom, I miss my old LOCO job where I was home every night.

Just my totally honest two cents worth.

To those of you waiting for the magic call or even a sim slot. Please see this post for what it is and not a whinge. It's an honest appraisal of one blokes interpretation of the current situation. There are still some serious tangible benefits to joining BA but the list of benefits is dwindling fast!

Very best of luck.

nrn

6th Oct 2016, 19:50

Couldn't agree more 2 Whites 2 Reds!

Jwscud

6th Oct 2016, 20:09

Are you short or long haul 2W2R?

My general view as a long haul DEP is life is very good compared to Loco life and even on a blind line swapping and open time allow me a lot of control of my lifestyle. I have also received significant help with family issues I would not have had in my precious job.

Friends who ended up on the 320 however seem to be having a hell of a time of it and are almost working for a different airline.

2 Whites 2 Reds

6th Oct 2016, 20:27

Jwscud

Both, until recently. So that'll tell you what fleet I'm on. The 76 has been a great fleet and the people on it are awesome. It's like a flying club these days with 7 hulls remaining, albeit a flying club that's mostly open from 0505 til midday! (On my roster anyway)

RexBanner

6th Oct 2016, 20:40

I commute for SH and things are not ideal but not for one moment would I say I was having a hell of a time of it. It's difficult but will hopefully get better with increased seniority. I do share the concerns though of 2W2R that the company morale is absolutely in the toilet. Nothing prepared me for that. If things start going south from here (is 900 hours per year even feasible or possible on a SH schedule out of Heathrow?? I'd hate to find out!) then I would seriously start to question my decision in coming here.

One thing that does really stick in the craw is the constant implication from management (Cruz in particular since he came in) that we need to behave as if we are in some desperate battle to survive, despite being in an overwhelmingly dominant position at Heathrow and having made over a Billion in profit in two consecutive years.

2 Whites 2 Reds

6th Oct 2016, 21:01

Rex....

I wouldn't for a minute say I'm having a hell of time of it either. The 320 guys and girls work significantly harder than me.

The culture and morale across the BA spectrum is absolutely at rock bottom, not sure whether that'll change anytime soon. If I sat here and did a proper OMA style 'Post Employment Review', I too was completely unprepared for it and find myself so so disappointed that BALPA have sold the junior folk completely down the river.

Looking forward to a new fleet in 2018, shortly followed by going on some form of part time contract to ensure a minimum level of control over my life without relying on JSS (whatever that is) or BALPA.

AGAIN....

Those prospective joiners should take this with the usual health warnings. Everyone is different and I don't regret joining but please come in bearing in mind the very significant changes in direction that are currently taking place. Some of the vastly more worldly chaps such as Wiggy etc have far more informed opinions.

JulietSierra6

6th Oct 2016, 22:01

As someone in the long haul hold pool who was recently told a short haul offer is now more likely, this definitely makes for interesting reading.

Trying to weigh up whether or not to hold out for a long haul offer has been playing on my mind over the last few days. Now hearing guys say they miss their LOCO job is definitely food for thought. Having said all of that with potentially 40 years left in the job I genuinely believe it's in my best interest to accept whatever offer comes first, get my place on the seniority list and worry about fleets later on.

There are no doubt positives to life in the LOCO's but for myself as a 'contractor' the lack of pension, LOL, holiday pay, sick pay, travel benefits and the looming potential of a command based somewhere I don't want to be, on less money (in some places) than I'm on now, doesn't make staying all that appealing.

I am most definitely not discounting the issues mentioned regarding BA short haul, merely stating for some/most it is still a great career move and arguably still one of the best jobs around. Though what that says about where we are heading is for another time.

Megaton

6th Oct 2016, 22:04

If you have 40 yrs to go in the industry then a few years of BA short haul is not the end of the world.

wiggy

7th Oct 2016, 05:14

Some of the vastly more worldly chaps such as Wiggy etc have far more informed opinions.

Thanks but I'm probably more Christmas crackered and cynical than worldly.....

I can't add much about lifestyle to the comments you guys who are living the shorthaul dream have posted, it ties in with comment elsewhere.

What I would say is that the management line of "we're in a fight for survival so we need cuts" has been the standard line at BA since the year dot, even when the shares were up at over £7 decades back. If we're doing well there will always be a caveat of "but looking ahead things aren't so good, so...." ...I think that is why you are seeing morale so low, because the troops feel they are always always under the cosh - and away from the waterfront some departments such as IT have already been decimated. Ultimately I don't think I've ever read or heard an unqualified "well done" from the BA head office.

As for the comments about BALPA at BA - IMHO it, or some of the hierarchy, are going to have to pee or get off the pot shortly. Bidline has been dismantled month on month in a series of small calculated steps that management know won't trigger a "call to arms", shorthaul were clobbered particularly badly by the move to EASA FTLs. I think even most of the Company council must realise that you can't solve everything by negotiation when dealing with some of those in power (who seem increasingly gung ho and are imposing changes to agreements at short notice) but it does seem that often as not a series of newsletters to the troops is the company council's weapon of choice. I'm personally not surprised the new joiners feel let down.

OTOH even the cynic in me would agree that BA can be very very good if you have a major family crisis, but the description about small problems and treacle rings true. If asked I'd still recommend Longhaul at BA, but I think shorthaul is becoming increasingly difficult to sell - other than as a route in to BA with a view of going Longhaul ASAP...which might only take a few years now but who knows what is down the road - not that long ago a few years was easily a decade.

Enzo999

7th Oct 2016, 08:43

I have been reading some of these comments over the last few days with interest, I to joined BA fairly recently and have been slightly disalusioned by the whole experience. Whilst I enjoy not having to constantly worry about bankruptcy, restructuring or redundancies I have found myself pining over my previous life.

Don't get me wrong there are still many good points about a life at BA, but anyone thinking it's the holly grail of jobs needs to stop and think very carefully.

I personally think if you are close to command at one of the LCCs you are by far better off staying, "personal opinion"!

VJW

7th Oct 2016, 09:39

How about going from a poor loco to having a choice of BA shorthaul or Easy DEC?!

Jwscud

7th Oct 2016, 09:56

I took BA over an imminent command at Ryanair and would do so any day of the week. I far prefer moaning about BALPA to "working" for an airline with no union representation. Battles with management over rosters and T&Cs are hardly unique to BA. The whole experience of going to work (LHR embuggerance and driving half the M25 included) is significantly better than anything I had at FR.

Wider morale within the organisation isn't great, and the holy grail it certainly isn't, but I would still describe the job as first among equals. If you have no desire ever to do LH and you are at EZY say, consider carefully. If you are at Ryanair, I'd jump at the chance. If you just want longhaul Virgin is just as good an option, better in some ways given their lower annual hour limit and beach fleet options.

GS-Alpha

7th Oct 2016, 10:00

The sad fact of the matter is that flying is not what it was. Everyone wants to fly for next to no money, and yet the airlines' costs are forever increasing. The Brexit induced pummelling of the pound must be costing something like £150-£200m per quarter at the moment, and management are bound to be looking for ways to try and offset that. Who knows when the pound will rise again? IAG is not alone. Check out EasyJet's share price. Sadly EASA FTLs have been adopted as a target rather than a limit, but I'm not sure anyone expected anything else in such a competitive environment. Full-time shorthaul flying within the UK is no longer a sustainable lifestyle. There it is in black and white.

Most people are seeing longhaul as the way out, and so I guess they see BA as attractive even if they are close to a command at an LCC. Even if they have to accept a decrease in Ts & Cs in the short term by accepting a shorthaul placement, it is perceived as The price to pay to attain the goal that is longhaul flying. And then once you finally get to longhaul, all will be good. The flaw in that thought process is that I've flown with long haul DEPs who regret their decision to join too!

In my own personal opinion, longhaul in BA is still not bad, but the changes to lifestyle over just a few years have been severe. Unfortunately, I think it will only be a few more years before it too is unsustainable over an entire career on a full-time contract. It is the way of the world. Custom and practice dictates that BA say "Jump" and BALPA will say "How high?". Why does this happen? Probably because BALPA knows that to refuse will cost them and the pilots dearly.

Spookster

7th Oct 2016, 11:08

2 whites 2 reds gave a similar experience to myself.

I'm a relatively newish joiner on LH. I think from the reading it's somewhat fleet dependant. I haven't been all that bowled over with my decision. This has been hard to stomach as I worked like a Trojan to join. I'm hopeful my view will change and I am working hard to keep my chin up with it.

For me the lifestyle and tiredness (dirty F word) are a problem. It's a dynamic situation (in the downward sense). Having tried LH elsewhere I don't feel the level of workload at the minute with the style of LH flying BA carries out goes hand in hand with the long term. It's 5 sometimes 6 complete nights sleep missing a month you never get back with lots of 2 "days off" between trips. Essentially it feels like long haul on a short haul roster.

You come back from a trip, spend the time off trying to recover and due to short time off go away again still not recovered - after a while you are simply frazzled. I work hard spending most of my time off dedicated to trying to recover, my own life seeming a sideline.

I do sense the tone from the machine is they want more. Already subtle tweaks here and there. With this sentiment perceptible from above I have asked myself what more my body can give. What is already in place is different to what was on the table when I joined and its still moving. I cannot see myself doing this for the next lot of decades. I'd have to take part time I think if they will give it to me or even look at other options. Something I didnt think id be saying.

BA is a good company itself. Its a little austere and icyly corporate - whether they know they come across like this or not. The pay is decent, the pension is still pretty decent, staff travel is ok, i wouldnt say its as great as you might expect from a huge scheduled airline. The leave is good and spread out - there's no "trump" off day system. From what I hear the line managers seem to be very helpful if something goes wrong for you in life which is good to know.

All my own perception and im sure there are people very happy there, it is a vast company.

BitMoreRightRudder

7th Oct 2016, 13:46

Lots of good points being made. I escaped SH to LH this year, and even being bottom 20% on my new fleet I have far more control of my workload than I did on the Airbus at Lhr. I'm a lot less tired and far more with it compared to 3 day, 10 sector disaster missions via T5 and T3. Even with nights out of bed it feels like a new job, new airline. And I have a young family and enjoy drinking as much beer as possible down route. The difference to me is night and day. I can do another 30 odd years LH.....I think. If I go part time....

So if you are recently joined on SH don't give up hope, I too had a "WTF have I done" moment during the first couple of years in the company having walked away from command at a Loco. With time in the company and seniority come options - and that is why I joined BA. A career path of sorts.

In short, all IMHO, BA short haul is a bloody disaster. Long haul is do-able, but 30-40 years of any form of full time flying....thanks EASA and welcome to the future.

A quick point re Balpa, lots of understandable griping over their supposed inaction but what they have done is keep all pilots on one Master Seniorty List, and kept all work in house - no mean feat given the reality of the aviation world outside BA. After 5 years in the company I had the seniority to bid for any LH co-pilot seat or go left seat SH Airbus Lhr or Lgw - those options were on the table solely because of the direction the Balpa guys have taken us. Keeping the career path open has involved some painful decisions, particularly for SH.

Ultimately, the comms from the union suggest (reading between the lines) that BA will keep our pay scales relatively intact, but the bidding system, lifestyle control and ability to self manage your workload that has for decades set BA apart from other airlines, are all features that are becoming nigh on impossible to defend in a new world of low cost thinking from a very aggressive management team.

When I joined the Training Captain at my sim assessment said something along the lines of "BA is a good company to work for on balance, but it is totally unrecognisable from the company I joined 20 years ago. I recommend working here but you must accept the company you are joining now will be completely unrecognisable in another 20 years." I remember thinking that was bloody good advice.

wiggy

7th Oct 2016, 16:48

BMRR..

Excellent post, one observation

A quick point re Balpa, lots of understandable griping over their supposed inaction but what they have done is keep all pilots on one Master Seniorty List, and kept all work in house

Fair point, but at danger of going off at a tangent increasingly that seems to be the leading item in any newsletter, and almost the Union's only "raison d'etre" at BA....as you know we've just had another major impostion of agreement change by BA and the relevant newsletter leads with :

" We find ourselves in the fortunate position of having over 4,000 pilots in BA for the first time, following a sustained period of growth and unprecedented pilot recruitment. We have succeeded in maintaining a single pilot workforce within the airline"..

Well yes, well done, but rather than starting the newsletter by patting yourself yet again on the back it might have been better to cut to the chase and tell us about what is going to be done over yet another line in the sand being crossed. I honestly think it is time we were told if the endless emphasis from some at BALPA about BA pilot numbers and the single seniority list are actually hints about some unspoken threat from IAG which could lead to a reduction in headcount if BALPA stands firm on anything, at all........err, ..sorry...(/rant and thread drift off....)

BTW I think your last two paras were spot on, and your Training Captains advice was excellent.

tommytailwind

7th Oct 2016, 18:00

This makes very interesting reading indeed. I joined in the spring straight onto longhaul having previously been an Easy skipper. I completely second the somewhat disillusioned thoughts of those above. I genuinely enjoyed the flying at Easy more than I do at BA. I too am more tired than I used to be (several nights a month of lost sleep are already taking their toll) and I wonder if even a 75% part time option would be sufficient to recover. A good friend of mine joined on the 747 from Ryanair (also a former skipper) and truly hates it. Now that is saying something! Yes, it has its advantages but if you're approaching or already have a loco command and are based in the country of your choice, think very carefully about a job at BA. I miss my old 4 sector days, believe it or not! No jetlag, no nights out of bed, 3 or 4 days off after a hard week, no living out of a suitcase, better salary. All worth considering in my view!

Jwscud

7th Oct 2016, 19:24

How much of that do you think is simply going left to right and short to long haul though?

wiggy

7th Oct 2016, 20:02

jwscud makes a fair point,

Despite rumours to the contrary regardless of the airline Long haul can be v hard on the body, especially the 2 pilot stuff across the pond or similar which usually involves a day flight, 24 hour slip and then a night shift home... 2 clear days at home, wash and repeat. I've certainly seen a few internal transfers from BA shorthaul come to Longhaul and not settle at all and try to get back to short haul ASAP, so it is not just a LoCo to BA thing - Long haul can be a lifestyle that some people simply don't adapt to. I'd also add that when it was 600-700 hours flying a year full time it was sustainable, nowadays most mere mortals are going to need to be on part time even in Long haul to survive a full career.

Spookster

7th Oct 2016, 20:27

Just to add to wiggy's point, I actually have flown LH in the past, albeit different type - it wasn't nearly as tiring. So for me it's not that I can't stomach long haul itself. It's the combination of the BA style of LH coupled they do not mitogate that with a healthy level of work, addtionally the minimum time off between trips due to the way credit/cap works make it so destroying. You simply can't get away doing that in LH for 40 years without something breaking. Normally on the body first.

Every return is a deep night and there is often only regional airline length of days off afterwards. It simply isn't enough to recover let alone have a life that involves human interaction beyond a grunt. When I looked at sample rosters prior to joining it seemed 3 days plus were the norm after trips. Even at that, I knew that having done LH that was ok, not ideal but ok. The reality when I got here was semmingly different. It seems every minute there's a sentiment or e mail from above regarding working levels. I do regret my choice at the minute.

That said, I am aware that having been here just over a year it maybe worth giving it some time, have to see how it pans out. Like I said the company are decent and there are many benefits so that side is good.

wiggy

7th Oct 2016, 22:02

When I looked at sample rosters prior to joining it seemed 3 days plus were the norm after trips. Even at that, I knew that having done LH that was ok, not ideal but ok. The reality when I got here was very different and its still changing.

Sorry to hear that. Problem was for a while some (even well meaning folk) were using traditional Bidline as part of the sales pitch. Under that system you'd often see at least 3 days of between trips and still have a chance of making CAP. As you say the reality has very rapidly changed and now on many lines you're more likely to see 2 days off. Worse still is if you've got have by good fortune got a big gap in your published line regardless of how hard you've worked previously you'll need to consider opting to do extra work yourself or risk being Assigned work in the gap, so even if you've made CAP there's no respite, something that was utterly utterly unthinkable even a couple of years ago.

4468

7th Oct 2016, 23:26

Wiggly
Under that system you'd often see at least 3 days off between trips and still have a chance of making CAP. As you say the reality has very rapidly changed and now on many lines you're more likely to see 2 days off.
I'm obviously missing something??

If annual CAP (your contracted work commitment) has not changed, and the Duty Rig (calculation of a trip's 'worth') has not changed. On Long Haul at least, how can you have fewer days off????:confused:

Notwithstanding Roster Assign, which generally only affects a few people on any status.

I accept SH has been totally sold down the river by the BACC, and their 'so called' SH reps, many of whom were on Long Haul, and some of whom had never flown a single aisle Airbus!!!!

tommytailwind

8th Oct 2016, 05:56

How much of that do you think is simply going left to right and short to long haul though?

For me, there is a small element of left to right regret but the main issue is longhaul and its physical effect on my body and mind. I've turned into a miserable git at home! As far as BA itself is concerned - no grumbles. Everyone is very friendly and training was enjoyable. I just don't see longhaul as a way of life for more than a couple of years without - as someone said - something breaking. And sadly a move to SH seems like a no-go at the moment due to lack of lifestyle and levels of work. I'd always held out hope that once into BA my career would be 'sorted' but sadly it's left me wondering if flying is even for me. It's not so much a BA thing - more an industry thing I guess.

wiggy

8th Oct 2016, 06:34

4468

how can you have fewer days off????

I understand the scepticism but one look at my diaries and logbook shows it to be so, though I appreciate that's almost ancient history by some standards.

More recently there have been more lower credit three day trips than their used to be on some fleets ; some of it the routes, basically "Short Longhaul"...some of it with the newer equipment is down to faster flight times..often marginal differences but they add up, so yes you may well need to work more days to make CAP....Whilst I accept forced assign (FA) only effects a few how many people now feel they have to bid for a trip of their choice to CAP + to try and avoid being FA'd in the first place? It's no wonder people are having problems controlling their banks...something which of course is not going to be helped by the recent change.

Sporran

8th Oct 2016, 10:00

Just found this thread (as a link from the BALPA forum) and am VERY impressed at how fair and balanced the comments are.

I have just moved to LHS on L/H and for ME the move has been a complete joy! Lots of years LHS on the airbus flogging around Europe was very hard work indeed. I thoroughly enjoyed the flying, with lots of really top people, but the ‘LHR factor’ is awful. Long taxi times, no stands available, no tugs etc etc and the slothful union driven working practices from ground staff can make it much more challenging and energy sapping than it needs to be. Unfortunately, particularly with the new EASA limits S/H in BA has become very, very tiring indeed.

The L/H lifestyle suits me very well. I seem to do a good job ‘managing’ jet-lag and find that I am much more refreshed after a L/H trip than I was after a multi-day S/H tour. That said I enjoy the benefit of lots of 3-person trips and the bunks really are very comfy indeed.

The BIGGEST problem at present in BA is the VERY LOW MORALE amongst all staff – not just pilots. The level of ‘management’ is really poor and there appears to be a complete breakdown in trust between 90% of senior managers and pilots. Decisions are made by bean-counters!!! Cost of everything and value of nothing is very much the BA bean-counter mantra!

I feel that the BALPA guys and girls have received a lot of unfair stick over the last few pages. Particularly with the many problem areas at the present time it would be inappropriate for them to make too much comment – in case comments could be used by legal teams later. I cannot see BA pilots taking strike action, but I do feel that some kind of go slow is very much on the cards.

One thing is a definite – the vast majority of BA pilots have always been very ‘on-side’ and willing to go the extra mile. I see that coming to an end and for the first time in decades I feel that I will not be busting a gut any more.

Challenging times ahead for pilots in BA! I echo the balanced comments of DEPs above, but the variety, options for fleet and seat changes and ‘job security’ still mean BA is a good option – even with dreadful management!!!

4468

8th Oct 2016, 10:26

Sporran

Couldn't agree more.

Wiggy
More recently there have been more lower credit three day trips than their used to be on some fleets ; some of it the routes, basically "Short Longhaul"...some of it with the newer equipment is down to faster flight times..often marginal differences but they add up, so yes you may well need to work more days to make CAP.
All I'm trying to do here is 'pressure test' the claim that LH works more days than it did? Or more precisely, understand WHY we might?

Annual CAP has not changed significantly? (Though CAP overrun in certain months can be significant.) Also the duty rig (on LH) has not changed either. In any event, LH credit is usually based on nothing more than 'block time'.

So my two questions are; what are these 'new' "Short Longhaul" destinations, and how much faster is the new equipment?

Because I don't think they're the reasons we are working harder.

In any event, significant numbers on LH always worked very close to 900 hours. That limit hasn't (yet) changed. So if they have remained on the same status, with similar destinations, how CAN they be working any harder?

I think you have to look elsewhere for your answers!

Edited to add: Obviously SH has 'enjoyed' a seismic shift in output under the current BACC!

VJW

8th Oct 2016, 10:45

I have to say as a recent addition to the pool, the last few pages on here paint a very bleak outlook on the airline I've worked so hard to join.

As an 8 year contractor to the company I 'provide a service' to, where I am on a zero hours contract, have spent many of my days off commuting back an forth to various bases in different countries for my entire career, where I have to pay for my uniform, food on board, medical renewals, sim checks, where I get zero pension, zero paid holiday/sick pay, zero travel benefits and zero loss of licence insurance, I find it hard to stomach that BA's management is dreadful compared to how bad it could be.

Is it likely that on the whole, as a human race, we are just never satisfied? Sure BA's management might be trying to squeeze more and more out of their workforce, but that's just the way of the world these days, and I'd love to know if there has ever been a BA pilot that has left to go seek work at the airline I describe.

If staff have low morale, I'm of the opinion that you simply can't just blame other people. I fully expect to work hard when I finally join, I want too! I'm pretty sure that if and when I meet someone in BA that tries to put a dampener on the company and morale, and then having explained where it is I've just come from, it will soon make them realise in fact they don't know how fortunate they are.

I bet the average office workers are tired on their 9-5 jobs Monday to Friday, working for a fraction of what we make, getting less days off a month then we get. Being tired by definition is the net result of 'work' and should be expected.

Of course people are all different. Different stages of their career and family life, so what might be tough for one person might be perfect for another. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and the last few paragraphs is simply mine. I still can't wait to join. The last few pages have been extremely helpful though so thanks for all the input and advice. It would be foolish of me however to go to BA thinking everything is perfect there, what I'm certain of is it's a ridiculous amount better than where I am, and if BA management is dreadful, we're all in trouble.

wiggy

8th Oct 2016, 11:00

4468

I think our debate might be for another place, and I'm not about to turn this into a LH vs. Shorthaul argument....but briefly once you start batting around at the sort of Mach numbers the 380 and 787 do on longer sectors flight times come down, even slightly, and a flight time credit trip will have it's value reduced, (with the backstop of TAFB /4) , but nevertheless reduced - marginal perhaps on a daily basis but over year it will make a difference, especially if you're junior and have a significant number of such trips ( it was interesting to me to hear someone describe their situation as doing Longhaul on a shorthaul roster, you would never have describe it as such a few years back)

Short Longhaul would be something like a TLV nightstop ( which seems to switch between LH or ) or Cairo.

4468

8th Oct 2016, 11:13

Wiggy

As you will know, TLV and CAI have been LH destinations for a very, very long time.

Juan Tugoh

8th Oct 2016, 11:53

4468, you are not upto date CAI is now a SH destination on the 321.

Tay Cough

8th Oct 2016, 12:34

CAI (and TLV) are Longhaul routes flown on long range A321s with a LH cabin fit. As trips, they are handled slightly differently within the SH rule set (for example, a day off afterwards and a trip constructed to LH rules).

4468

8th Oct 2016, 12:59

Juan

Do keep up.

As Tay explains, CAI remains a LH destination. You just have to understand how LH and SH are defined.

For example, DME has been both a LH AND a SH destination in recent years!

With VERY different scheduling arrangements for the exact same destination, obviously!

blimey

8th Oct 2016, 18:40

And have a look at the new SH breakfasts if you want to know what hardship really is.

Permafrost_ATPL

8th Oct 2016, 19:17

DEP here, LHS LoCo to LH.

A lot of good feedback on this thread, so I thought I'd throw in my two pence on a couple of points that have not been raised.

The first is that LH can be rather difference depending on your fleet. The most senior FO on the 747 will look at the blind line of the most junior FO on the 380 with amazement. So even though LH is still a much better gig than SH (if you can manage the sleep), your lifestyle and contentment may vary somewhat based on your fleet.

My second point is that a switch from LHS to RHS, even if it can be a bit frustrating at times, brings a significant reduction in stress. I can see why the guys who go EZY to BA SH regret their decision at times, as their hours an stress levels will be comparable. But for yours truly, going from the stress of 5 days in a row of bad weather, dodgy Greek islands, disruptive passengers and very junior FOs, to flying ILS to ILS four or five times a month with very experienced skippers, has been very enjoyable. And I, for one, am less tired than I was with the LoCo.

In general, I find people to be very pleasant to work with at BA. Training was very relaxed and 90 percent of the skippers seem to recognise I know a thing or two about flying. I work 3 out of 4 weekends though and going from a fixed roster to the vagaries of being junior on a bidding system has impacted family life to an extent. On the plus side, I am a lot less stressed and tired. I enjoy looking after the kids more than the last two years in the previous job (I had become pretty grumpy). Even the missus thinks I'm slightly more likeable than before.

One last point, which has been mentioned a couple of times on the thread, is that no one knows what the future holds. Alex Cruz might tighten the screw so much that the likes of five year fleet freezes might become 6, 7 or more. And heaven knows what else. But then no one knows what the future holds for any airline, and my ex-colleagues tell me on a regular basis that things are getting worse at my old outfit. You could draw lines to chart the decline of terms and conditions at all airlines and they would be more or less parallel. But BA would be one of the top lines, which makes me think I made the right choice.

P0tt3r

8th Oct 2016, 19:55

Having done pretty much exactly the same, (same LHS loco job, to same BA LH fleet), I pretty much agree with all of that.

A couple of things...

LONG HAUL- suits some people, won't suit others. Dependent on how you cope with time differences and nights out of bed. Also depends on number of trips/slip lengths/crew complement (so at BA fleet dependent). For me, on my fleet, I'm a lot less tired than 5 earlies.

LHS to RHS- this is also an individual thing. Can your ego take it? How used to your own way are you? I've found it ok. People seem to respect my experience level.

I couldn't agree more re stress levels. That said, I don't think LH skipper is a stressful as SH loco skipper. 1-3 experienced crew members to support you, and about 40 less sectors per month. Nice.

Will LH go the way of SH? Will BA go the way of the locos? Time to get out of that happens...

4468

9th Oct 2016, 07:24

The previous two posts sum up LoCo to BA LH pretty well. Overall it represents a reduction in stress, and an increase in quality of life. Not quite as cushy as it used to be, but little changed frankly.

OTOH, move from LoCo to BA short haul, and you are likely to get rather a shock! You will spend far more time in uniform than you used to. More days at work, and longer days at that! Coupled with min rest night stops, or with more than a 60 minute commute to Heathrow, and you could easily, like I have, look back on the previous 6-7 days, and realise you have worn nothing but uniform! BA will issue you with, I think, 6 shirts. That's not nearly enough. They, and the rest of the uniform will inevitably start to look very shabby, very quickly!

BA weren't interested in an 'Easy' style pattern of work, as they wanted more days at work out of their crews!! They also like their pilots to hang around in a cafe for hours on end, waiting for their next aircraft to arrive. Meaning you'll probably fly fewer hours in your increased days at work!

But, as with many things, there is a silver lining. Anyone joining recently, with sufficient experience for commands, can be the captain of an A319/320/321 within a year. Because so few people who have escaped to LH can stomach the idea of returning!

So basically, if all you want to be is a SH pilot, I would recommend staying at Easy, or aiming to work for them!

LH at BA still (currently) remains a very good, and well paid, option.

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 07:45

Anyone joining recently, with sufficient experience for commands, can be the captain of an A319/320/321 within a year. Because so few people who have escaped to LH can stomach the idea of returning! .

You'll be more tuned in to Sort Haul than I am but I must admit from reading elsewhere that the balance of opinion was that 2016/command in under a year shock event was an outlier and that next year will see a move back to some form of normality - as long as someone doesn't tamper with the rules. If the company decides to meddle with freezes and decides to unfreeze junior P2s to go RHS to LHS Airbus whilst freezing those on Longhaul who have bid to move to Airbus LHS then of course all bets are off (it's costs and that darned business plan again).

FWIW regardless of the strength of their stomachs I do know of some Long Haul P2s who bid for a move to shorthaul for command.

GS-Alpha

9th Oct 2016, 08:01

4468, there's little doubt shorthaul is working harder than it used to, but your perception of longhaul is wrong - little has changed? Sorry I disagree. You ask how we are working harder and suggest FA effects only a small number on any status, which is not correct. Longhaul has been highly efficient within BA wrt achieving the hours for many years it is true, but it could be achieved in a way that suited each individual's coping mechanisms for fatigue. You can do three trips with two days off inbetween them, or you can do two trips back to back, followed by 4 days off and then the third trip. The latter of those two scenarios is far less fatiguing for most people, and I for one am significantly more fatigued now that EASA prevents it. On the subject of FA, it's effected me directly about four or five times a year since it came in. On the occasions when it has, it's resulted in trip one day off, trip two days off, and because I was already working hard in the rest of the month to make the gap in the first place; an incredibly fatiguing month has been the result. Indirectly, it forces me to work over CAP almost all the time. What do I do with those hours once they are in the bank? If I could discharge them in a later month then you're right, we couldn't be working significantly harder. However, most people are prevented from doing this, because you get FA'd when you try it. So you're left with PBW. Nope, you can't due to closed days. So then what? You ring ops who allow a PBW with immediate pick up again. You're bank is now reduced, and you've just done some forced overtime without actually being FAd. In this way, FA and highly restricted PBW effects everyone even if you never actually been FAd, you've had enforced overtime via the back door. How else has long haul got harder? Well we gave up leave days for shorthaul, five day trips now exist that have the same credit as four day trips used to years ago etc.. No one is suggesting shorthaul is not working harder, but I think it paints an incorrect picture to come on here and suggest to DEPs that longhaul hasn't changed and you'll love it.

I've flown with many long haul DEPs who regret their decision, and they've come from both shorthaul and long haul backgrounds. Back when I was shorthaul, I was ready to quit. I tried longhaul and it suited me far better. However, the changes over the last few years have left me regretting becoming a professional pilot on far more occasions than I'd like. As I highlighted in my previous post though, I don't think this is a 'BA specific' problem. Flying has become incredibly fatiguing almost everywhere. The point is, BA is now pretty much like any of the other main choices out there. It is no longer the pinnacle of a UK pilot's career, and you should think long and hard before giving up your current position. It may well be that it still suits an individual to move, but it's definitely not as black and white as it used to be in days of old.

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 08:46

GS-Alpha

You put that all much better than I could

Indirectly, it forces me to work over CAP almost all the time.

Yep..and if I may by way of explanation for those interested in the detail.

Under Bidline you used to be able to work high (above CAP - the monthly target in notional credited hours, not hours that get paid off in cash), put the excess credited hours above the CAP in your "bank", and then when you had enough credited hours built up you could drop a trip from your roster in exchange for paying the banked credited hours back to the company ( a Personal Bank Withdrawal or "PBW"). There used be a limit on the credited hours you could build up (40 hours in Longhaul last time I looked) - go above that and there were sanctions - temporary loss of bidding rights, so routinely people would bid high and then low, (leaving gaps on their line) vs. the CAP across the months (which was the whole point of bank in the first place, it was a smoothing device to allow you to bid high and low). Remember the large gaps in Longhaul Rosters mentioned by some in previous posts? That's one of the reasons why they existed.

What has changed is that nowadays people are consistently bidding above CAP to avoid leaving gaps on their line because a change to the rules now means the company can drop trips into those self same gaps (aka "FA"). That in turn means their banks are building up towards the 40 hour limit - pilots need to get rid of banked hours somehow.

Now once upon a time you could contact ops and request to drop a trip as a PBW, and as long as you had enough credited hours in the bank and unless there was a manning crisis it was done. Nowadays the company is very very resistant to work being dropped (even though we have people on Reserve/standby) so they are increasingly limiting PBWs or taking the line, in Longhaul at least, of saying: ..." you must do the trip, but we'll take the hours out of your the bank in return for cash.", so as GS-Alpha has said it's effectively forced paid overtime for cash. Some may well be right in claiming that CAPs haven't increased that much on Long Haul, but there has been a increase of hidden work above CAP across fleets...and a massive loss in flexibility for the individual. Also TBF to shorthaul, exactly the same may be happening there, but I have no idea of the reality so I can't comment on that...

I'll close this ramble by saying I think the vast majority BA pilots know and acknowledge that Short haul got stuffed by the move to EASA FTLs, but to consistently claim by way of contrast that Longhaul is a sunny upland that has hardly been touched by recent changes is, sadly, something of an exaggeration.

HTH, hope it's of interest.

nuclear weapon

9th Oct 2016, 09:37

I've been following this thread with interest and I have to admit I'm a bit surprised at some of the things I've read. Perhaps I was naive to think BA won't have some of the problems of the other airlines pilots are running away from.

However my biggest surprise so far as I've deduced from some of the posts is that BA don't do fixed links. This is a procedure where a crew is attached to the same aircraft for multiple sectors. I work outside of UK and where I'm based was standard procedure in my two previous companies. You can resume for a four sector day at 6am and be on your way home 2pm, provided weather corporates and aircraft doesn't go tech.

It reduces duty time and fatigue and so far most pilots myself included are happy with it. I find it hard to think a crew will do Lhr to Cdg and back then wait some hours to fly the same aircraft type currently tied up with another crew somewhere later in the day. Is there a reason for this or BA is too big for that to work. By the way the companies I was referring to are small in comparison.

anson harris

9th Oct 2016, 10:51

Coming from a LH background, before that Euro LoCo, personally I find the BA LH roster pretty good. A lot of it depends on where you live. If you want to commute from abroad or even from more than a couple of hours away, then you are going to find some frustrations I guess, but that's your choice.
If you live within an hour's drive of LHR then I think it's actually pretty easy for now. I do 4-5 trips a month with credit for sims, leave, reserve etc. I've found BA to be enormously accommodating when I've had genuine problems such as sickness and a personal issue that prevented me going to work. They were even pretty awesome when there was nobody on reserve and I lost my ID... There's a very good electronic swap system backed up by decent (but overworked) Current Ops staff who in my experience always try to help you out if you approach it in the right way. The bidding system has a lot of plusses once you get a degree in BA history and customs. The training was incredibly grown-up, my colleagues are (on the whole...) very easy to work with and I feel incredibly lucky to have been working for BA for the last few years.
Yes, there are people that are deeply unhappy, but they seem to often have zero experience of other airlines, or other careers, or are disgruntled commuters who used to have an amazing (yet clearly unsustainable) lifestyle and have now had their lives turned upside down by EASA.

4468

9th Oct 2016, 12:33

nuclear weapon

You are correct. Fixed links are definitely preferable. But just to give you a glimpse into the 'BA way'. I have in the past, worked a four sector day, on four different aircraft (including three different variants) with four different groups of cabin crew.

It is also perfectly possible, on a five day gypsy tour of Europe, to operate with TEN different lots of cabin crew!

That's what BA affectionately term 'One Team'!

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 12:36

nw

However my biggest surprise so far as I've deduced from some of the posts is that BA don't do fixed links....
Is there a reason for this or BA is too big for that to work.

One for a shorthauler to answer but as you can see from the previous comment it's certainly a common complaint (i.e. long duty days). I think the standard answer from the head shed is that the SH /LH tie up with transfer passengers and also slots complicates matters, another theory (well mine anyway) is that over the years no-one has actually stripped the schedules back to the bare essentials and seen if fixed links are possible. Stick in the different industrial agreements for the cabin crew and then chuck in the (BALPA approved) duty rig that doesn't penalise the company financially for producing long duty days and you've got a recipe for long days and the situation 4468 describes..

Anson

Wouldn't disagree with a lot of what you wrote, but as I'm sure you are aware a lot of the angst/frustration is that ( as in many companies) the rate of change is increasing and in BA at least as you know we're increasingly seeing unilateral imposition of rule changes....I'm guessing you'll have live with the consequences longer than I will so I wish you luck down the road.

BTW on the subject of grumbling commuters I think many commuters (I'm one) frustration is the way BA decided to interpret some of the EASA rules when writing them into the Ops manual, it was almost as if they had a "thing" against commuters.:oh:

That said one solution is part time, if you can get it.

anson harris

9th Oct 2016, 12:57

the rate of change is increasing and in BA at least as you know we're increasingly seeing unilateral imposition of rule changes
Yes, hence "for now"!

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 13:22

anson

......:ok:.

FullClimb

9th Oct 2016, 14:49

Out of interest, are the bid results out yet? If not, any idea when they are expected?

anson harris

9th Oct 2016, 15:09

Within the next month or so.

ManUtd1999

9th Oct 2016, 16:49

However my biggest surprise so far as I've deduced from some of the posts is that BA don't do fixed links....
Is there a reason for this or BA is too big for that to work.

Once you have large numbers of crew switching a/c it makes sense to increase the amount of "down time" between flights. That way the crew can be waiting for the inbound aircraft and the next flights won't be delayed due to out of position crew.

As to why changing aircraft is necessary in the first place, no idea.... Surely BA's schedule is fixed enough (and a/c turnarounds short enough) for the aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to all do more or less the same? Just think of the savings in rostering complexity and associated costs...

Twiglet1

9th Oct 2016, 18:30

BTW on the subject of grumbling commuters I think many commuters (I'm one) frustration is the way BA decided to interpret some of the EASA rules when writing them into the Ops manual, it was almost as if they had a "thing" against commuters.

What exactly is this Wiggy - my experience of EASA so far is its pretty black or white. Assume your on about days off after long haul?

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 18:53

Twiglet

I don't want to give the impression I'm always whinging..honestly. Keeping it simple it was felt intially that the company were very resistant to allow the continuation of Flight Crew back to backs under EASA ...now their hands were tied re trip construction but there's a thought they could have been more helpful if there had been a will to help out. Ultimately "commuters" that want back to back to have now learnt the tricks and trips that allow them to operate within the current rule set so it's water under the bridge.

Probably more importantly was the (AFAIK the still untested by disciplinary) argument over BA's interpretation of the rule about the need to be acclimatised for report post days off/leave...something which of course applies to everybody, commuter or not.

wiggy

9th Oct 2016, 19:17

Man U the aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to all do more or less the same?

Again one for a short hauler but have a look at 4468's comments about "Gypsy tours"....AFAIK part of the problem on short haul is that legacy cabin crew and flight crew work to very different industrial agreements regarding turn around times, meal breaks, and crew composition across the varients so they often don't do the same days work at all...

4468

9th Oct 2016, 19:35

EASA has absolutely no basis in common sense. I think everyone accepts that?

However the back to back restrictions may at least have been partially based in a desire to protect folks from themselves? For example, the back to back to back to back to back merchants. Who have commuting/UK income tax issues.

It's also the case that many in BA, don't like back to backs. BA MAY have allowed them, (as they do for cabin crew) had they been given a free hand to impose them on all.

My personal view is that the current arrangements are about right?

nuclear weapon

9th Oct 2016, 20:42

Thanks guys for the replies as to why BA don't do fixed links. It's hard to think that with the sophistication levels of rostering softwares out there it shouldn't be too hard to achieve.

wiggy

10th Oct 2016, 07:06

' Morning all (note to self: must get out more)...

4468

(At the danger of staying off topic, though perhaps relevant as history).

However the back to back restrictions may at least have been partially based in a desire to protect folks from themselves? For example, the back to back to back to back to back merchants. Who have commuting/UK income tax issues.

As you say rightly EASA often makes no sense, the back to backs being a classic example: The "protect folks from themselves", was a popular comment from those who didn't want them/do them (and dare I say it somewhat parent > child in tone) but as somebody else pointed out earlier in the thread some individuals genuinely found a back to back, even across the pond, easier than cross the pond and back, two days off, then stateside again (I certainly found it easier and mea culpa, even I was guilty of b2b2b'ing suitable trips a few times....it's horses for courses). Back to backs are now an option for roster control that has been reduced to pilots due EASA, so be it. Above all I'd certainly agree with you that I wouldn't want them forced on anyone.

If you want a personal take on this from a commuter I just work around the changes and FWIW whilst the change has made commuting slightly more frequent some months it's not a big deal, as for tax "issues"...? Of course a very large number of those described as "commuters" do live in the UK - Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, etc.

Anyhow, all water under the bridge, perhaps for the sake of prospective DEPs we should move on..

n w

Thanks guys for the replies as to why BA don't do fixed links. It's hard to think that with the sophistication levels of rostering softwares out there it shouldn't be too hard to achieve

I think if you saw the various industrial agreements in play you'd probably have a better handle on why even the most sophisticated software would struggle to produce economical fixed links.

champair79

10th Oct 2016, 11:10

BA has a lot of connecting traffic onto short haul plus LHR can be subject to delays. You'll often see equipment swaps between the 319, 320 and 321 even up to a few hours before departure as passengers miss connections, aircraft go tech, late inbounds etc. I think BA's reasoning is to keep the aircraft allocations as fluid as possible to try to mitigate delays and optimise seating availability otherwise you'd have a cascading problem. Yes it means longer duty days but that's the nature of the beast. Revenue Management will always sell to a set aircraft type but these can change once the flight enters operational control. Thats one of the advantages of the A320 family - flexibility.

Then of course there's the different union agreements. It's complex!

4468

10th Oct 2016, 12:12

Conversely, you will also enjoy the experience of arriving late. (Normality at home base!) Then doing a 'tail to tail' transfer between aircraft and terminals across the campus. To arrive at the next aircraft at ETD +10, with cabin crew there you have never met, passengers all boarded for the past 25 minutes, and a despatcher standing with a load sheet to sign, and itching to close the door!

You then have the joy of explaining to the customers what happened, because they all saw with their own eyes it was YOU and your colleague that were holding up their departure!

It's either boredom, or bedlam. There seems little in between.

Sporran

10th Oct 2016, 18:54

4468,

Boredom, or bedlam - so very true.

The lack of fixed-links (or really long links) on S/H does not cost the company any money (since the last change in how credit was calculated), but it gives the company much more flexibility. As mentioned above (somewhere) it almost offers a firebreak to ensure that crews get back on track. Admittedly, BA did reduce the number and length of these breaks, but it was still rather tedious to have to sit about for 2-3 hours waiting for your next link.

Gypsy tours have been a HUGE annoyance for pilots for as long as I was on the airbus fleet. It is no exaggeration for pilots to do 12 sectors with at least 10 different sets of cabin crew. Another huge bug-bear would also be that often the cabin crew were only doing a single sector out and a single sector back - sometimes even with a lay-over day in between.

Oh the joy to be back on L/H and only have to do one out, time off and one back!!!

Spookster

10th Oct 2016, 22:38

Nuclear Weapon

I think you have hit an important nail upon its head and to give credit to Wiggy and GS-Apha - a sentiment that has been echoed before.

I think someone said previously in this thread "BA is very easy to join for the wrong reasons". To think about that for a second. Pilots are terrible for dining from the rumour table. There has always been a perception that BA is utopia and the supply to the company has mainly been based off a self feeding association with this idea. Those within BA from the old days had been in so long they did not know otherwise - how bad, or how sometimes it were better elsewhere. That has to be said in balance.

BA now has an unprecedented level of new people joining and these preconceptions are being rent usunder, not least by some recent unprecedented ways in which the company is approaching its obligations on indistrial agreements.

This public airing of introspection is not a bad thing, but a healthy thing, not based on sweeping generalisation that "its BA". So, before joining, strip away any preconceptions, treat it as Joe blogs airlines and do an appraisal.

You will be for the moment well paid - at the top of the uk tree for first officers. You will be relatively secure. You will work for a company that still is slightly Victorian on its interpretation of how to be soft and friendly towards employees (it's working on that one I hear). But you will be working for a company that works you foot to the floor, full octane. No one despite all the posturing can deny that at the moment. There is no escaping that. And do not make the mistake many has made that thinking more money makes for a better coffin. Judge for yourself, no one else. Its your life, no one else's of course. The situation is changing, bare that in mind. Be astute and judge for its merits and warts in honesty and you won't be disappointed. And be aware there are subtle changed that foretell changes no one can know, but has many wondering.

It's a complicated job to assess and not at all a basket place to apply for. It's an all or nothing sort of place. Marmite. I've not had a great impression so far but that's not to say I've lost complete faith already. As said, I'm still working hard to keep my chin up not least because I placed so much on coming here, but I'm no fool and if it stops working for me long term, I will seek plan B.1.2

angelo26

21st Oct 2016, 13:10

Hi,

Was somebody able to book a simulator slot for November?
I received a email at 1030am and when I logged in at 1300 there were already no slots availbale!
Regards

Dupre

21st Oct 2016, 15:45

Hi,

Was somebody able to book a simulator slot for November?
I received a email at 1030am and when I logged in at 1300 there were already no slots availbale!
Regards

I logged in 45 mins after the email but no slots available 😟

VJW

21st Oct 2016, 16:31

Angelo you REALLY need to call them. I think you passed your day 2 at least a month before me. And I've been in the pool for over a month now...

FoxChaRomeo

21st Oct 2016, 18:14

Only 5 slots available today, was lucky enough to be on my iPad when the email came in and for one of them to fall on a day off...

bradandwhitney

22nd Oct 2016, 09:06

This question goes to anyone who has attended or is preparing for the 2nd stage (group exercise, interview)?

How to interpret this question and come up with a suitable answer?
Give us an example in your life when you have been too accommodating for reasons of cultural diversity and thereby have let someone else down.

Fatigued Fred

22nd Oct 2016, 09:55

How long has Nigel Farage worked for BAs recruitment team? Awful question.

average-punter

22nd Oct 2016, 10:25

Was that question actually asked? If so it's a ridiculous question which has absolutely zero relevance to the operation of an airliner. This is what happens when HR are allowed to get too close to a pilot recruitment process. This process has gone completely mad.

Stone Cold II

22nd Oct 2016, 10:34

A friend of mine who's been at BA for a few years now, mentioned he was asked that question.

Total nonsense and irrelevant.

Lafyar Cokov

22nd Oct 2016, 10:40

I don't think that is a question you need to have an answer to!

blimey

22nd Oct 2016, 11:15

How long has Nigel Farage worked for BAs recruitment team? Awful question.

It can be asked to a person of any race/creed/colour/gender/sexual orientation by a person of any race/creed/colour/gender/sexual orientation. BA is about as diverse as you get.

McNugget

23rd Oct 2016, 04:13

That is hysterical. Pilot recruiting gone mad.

There are plenty of ways to assess the non-technical persona of the candidate with "tell me about a time when" questions, if they still flatly refuse to have a technical interview.

This is just proof that the lunatics are running the asylum.

Right Engine

23rd Oct 2016, 04:55

BA would prefer culturally aware pilots. That question probably exists to check you're not some UKIP voting, Daily Mail letter writer. But it seems some of you are ;-)

Think about it. You're getting upset about a politically correct question? Don't you get it? You'll be sharing a cockpit with a diverse ethnic/sexuality/gender spread in BA. If you get all het up at the ambiguity it'll just prove you're another one of those veiled intolerant-types that quite frankly, we have enough of in BA already.

McNugget

23rd Oct 2016, 05:29

I work in an outfit every bit as diverse as BA, thank you. Per capita, I'd say far moreso.

My cultural awareness is fine. The question doesn't bother me personally - I just fail to see how this isn't a case of HR being given too long a leash. It would seem plenty agree.

But, thanks for joining in. Without people like you, we'd be stuck with technical questions and personality-gauging questions based on relevant experience. How would we cope?

sudden twang

23rd Oct 2016, 08:17

Right Engine,
I'm having trouble believing that this is an actual question.
It's right/ necessary to investigate cultural diversity but this question delves deeper requiring the answer to include a time when you've been too accommodating. To expand that to it having affected a third party makes it very difficult.
The acid test as to whether this question is reasonable or not would be to present it to a random selection of current BA pilots and see if they can answer it.
Personally I have an okish response to it but it took me 10 minutes to think of a specific example and I've been flying a long time so should have far more examples than most applicants.
Logically any pilot selector is going to think the same and treat answers pragmatically.
Personally at 5nm into BOM with +TSRA it would help me if pilot recruitment concentrated less on those who had overdone cultural diversity but focussed more on those who can fly a jet.
This question, if it is a question, gives BA a bad name as evidenced by the posts above.
Right Engine, your final sentence is ironic in the extreme.

Right Engine

23rd Oct 2016, 08:28

McNugget,

I appreciate your point. But BA HR's opinion of a good BA employee is not mutually exclusive to PPrune's collective opinion of what makes a good pilot.
In order to join BA, it's only fair that the odd question about diversity awareness is thrown at you. Despite it's clichéd PC origins, a tell-tale frown from an interviewee will hint at someone who hasn't given diversity much thought. And for those whose frowns are most pronounced, that maybe are from a more bigoted origin.... I hope you'd appreciate why BA might prefer not to employ them.

Having flown with the odd bigot over the years (not many : but we've got 'em!) I'd prefer if our future recruits were easier for everyone to get on with.

I do agree that a question worded "have you ever been too accommodating in a situation regarding cultural diversity/sexuality" is a bit over complicated. But surely that would be a great opportunity to exhibit / show off your excellent communication skills in pointing out the complexities of the question, the sensitive nature of the topic and (hopefully) the lack of anecdotes to answer with!

FWIW, I've got nothing to do with recruitment!

no sponsor

23rd Oct 2016, 08:30

I did have a similar question several years ago, so it's not a recent addition.

At the end of the day, it's their train set, so you just need to jump through the hoops.

sudden twang

23rd Oct 2016, 08:43

Right Engine,
Our posts crossed, I'm glad we are in agreement that the question is too complex.

Did you use the words " veiled intolerant types" and "bigot" during your interview for BA?

anson harris

23rd Oct 2016, 11:09

Diversity awareness or lack of it has precisely zero bearing on one's ability to be an effective pilot.
I completely disagree and so do BA. Has it occurred to you that people who don't stop to consider the differences among others generally make poor team players and even worse leaders? Imagine the scenario where a Captain says something upsetting about a subset of society that he feels are beneath him or her - yet the co-pilot is either part of that group or maybe married to somebody in it. Is that co-pilot going now going to go the extra mile to support that Captain (consciously or otherwise)? I doubt it.
Further to that - you obviously misunderstand the point of such questions. Yes, demonstrating that you are aware of cultural issues is a bonus, but they are also looking to see that you are flexible in your approach and open minded.
They're basically looking for people that aren't arseholes. Sometimes I wonder if that's a rare quality.

average-punter

23rd Oct 2016, 11:42

I agree you need to be aware of other cultures, to a point. It's certainly very low on my list of priorities though. As John Smith says acting in a professional manner will cover you for all bases.

This question is ridiculous and as with any question like this let's face it the person who is the best at lying will have the best answer in the eyes of HR!!!

It's one big joke

Bloodhound Loose

23rd Oct 2016, 11:44

Give us an example in your life when you have been too accommodating for reasons of cultural diversity and thereby have let someone else down

I think that there are 2 actual interview questions that have been merged into one as the story has been retold. "Send two and fourpence" springs to mind. I suspect the two questions looked something like this:

- Give an example of a time when you have been too accommodating and thereby have let someone else down.

- Give an example of a time when you have had to be accommodating due to reasons of cultural diversity.

Diversity awareness at BA is not just important for working alongside multi-cultural colleagues; 50% of BA passengers are NOT British (store that stat for your interview!) Think about serving alcohol, or a bacon butty, inbound to Riyhad. Imagine an aircraft outbound from Mumbai with 70% local passengers and none of your cabin crew can speak Indian. A couple of small examples of how cultural awareness must pervade throughout the business. It's taken very seriously and I don't think it unreasonable to expect a couple of minutes of probing over the course of a 3-day selection procedure.

anson harris

23rd Oct 2016, 11:46

The key is to act in a professional manner whatever your views of a person or group are.

Of course you're entitled to your own views, regardless of how ignorant they are. And yes, professionalism involves occasionally putting your beliefs to one side - we all have prejudices whether we like it or not.

...does not mean snivelling and scraping to avoid offending someone's cultural sensibilities.

Nobody, least not BA, would expect you to do that. What you are expected to be able to do is demonstrate some key qualities like empathy, social awareness and, for want of a better word, manners.

It's for those in a minority to fit in with the majority

Well luckily for BA, the majority of people there are aware of differences among us and recognise that it is a strength. The best workplaces are the ones where everyone comes to work not being embarrassed of who they are or where they come from.

JulietSierra6

23rd Oct 2016, 11:49

Anson is on the money here.

John smith you must be joking with this statement.

Why? Diversity awareness or lack of it has precisely zero bearing on one's ability to be an effective pilot.

nrn

23rd Oct 2016, 11:53

Give me an example of when you were flying the Space Shuttle in an inverted negative g dive whilst flipping off the martians on the moon yesterday in 2034...

Some questions might be a bit weird but it's BA's trainset so if you want the job you better come up with an answer.

binsleepen

23rd Oct 2016, 12:11

Surely if the airline is to be representative of society it needs both bigotts and pc luvvies working for it! If you weed out the biggotts could the arline not be accused of institionalised biggottism?:rolleyes:

regards

anson harris

23rd Oct 2016, 12:25

once great British institution
I think they want to be a great British business, not an institution. If you want institutions, I can recommend the WI.

BitMoreRightRudder

23rd Oct 2016, 12:36

When I was still flying

Ah, now it makes sense.

Max Angle

23rd Oct 2016, 12:44

I can assure you that the booze flows freely on BA flights to and from Saudi but not (I think) in their airspace. However its not a good idea to arrive there visibly intoxicated.

JaxofMarlow

23rd Oct 2016, 13:29

I also do not believe this is a question, but two amalgamated to make it seem ridiculous.

wiggy

23rd Oct 2016, 14:11

I'll admit it's a very odd question but:

it's BA's trainset so if you want the job you better come up with an answer.

Just about sums it up.

Unfortunately BA are not going to pay to put every applicant through a sim on day one so that those that can fly an outside loop, engine out can display their wares. Given numbers "HR" (or their outsourced recruiters if applicable) are going to put a pretty fine net on the pre sim no-tech filters.

For the unaware BA do make a very big deal out of their Diversity and Inclusion policy (going as far as having on some suitably selected line pilots pretty much on call to offer advice on the subject) so I'd suggest whether you think the question stinks or not if you're appying it's a case of "forewarned is forearmed....."

john smith:

BA is a British Airline. I can't think of many places worse to visit that Saudi, but in the event I ever had to go there, I'd be pretty irritated if the airline refused to serve alcohol or pork products to avoid offending cultural sensibilities.

You may well be irritated, I would as well, but as Max rightly says says booze is served on Saudi flights...

What a sad state of affairs that a once great British institution has allowed itself to descend to this.

Descend to what? I'd have thought having an policy which fundamentally boils down to: talk to people and treat people as you would wish to be talked to/treated yourself is a good thing.

In many ways it's like other formerly state run organisations (see the BBC, inter alia).

Oh no it's not...I can promise you any idea of BA being run like the BBC went out of the window the day Bob Ayling left.

bradandwhitney

23rd Oct 2016, 19:15

Thanks to all for the discussion following my post.

Would someone kindly point out an actual example/a situation that relates to this interview question.

Thanks!

PS: My personal opinion is (again this is just personal!) that a "good pilot" in addition to outstanding flying skills features a fair share of non-technical talents as well.
I think it is a good thing that BA are taking that into consideration.

HadEnough

23rd Oct 2016, 19:19

Just to confirm, I can categorically state that the question posed has never been asked and is certainly not in the current bank of questions!

Capt Ecureuil

23rd Oct 2016, 19:24

John Smith,

I don't normally post on this forum but feel compelled to say that I'm glad to hear that you're not to be found on any flighdeck let alone a BA one.

anson harris

23rd Oct 2016, 19:31

I'm just thankful that I don't have to put up with such tosh in my new career.

I'd love to know what that is.

blimey

23rd Oct 2016, 23:04

Two pages of some very strident views? Perhaps you all need to chill and be accepting of other peoples' opinions.

4468

23rd Oct 2016, 23:06

Give us an example in your life when you have been too accommodating for reasons of cultural diversity and thereby have let someone else down
Well, how about this?

I personally have strong beliefs regarding animal welfare. Many others do too, and strongly disagree with halal slaughter. We neither need, nor want it. However, since halal is EVERYWHERE, in order to paint ourselves as 'diverse' in this PC world, we either become vegetarian, or sacrifice our beliefs, as we are forced to accept, 'our' beliefs are seen as less important?

Am I letting myself down?

sudden twang

24th Oct 2016, 08:27

4468,
Quite possibly a perfect answer that many of us could use but I doubt I'd have thought of that on the spot.
Without wishing to detract from your thought provoking post how about a flippant example.
It's the belief ( now rescinded)of the airport authority at a certain UK airport is / was that Tabards should be worn to collect your case. The collection point is in the open air. However reading the user instructions of said tabard it states not to expose to UV light. So to adhere to the beliefs of the airport owners I'm damaging my employers property. I could of course wait for nightfall, a cloudy day or indeed wear the tabard under my uniform jacket as the requirements state a tabard must be worn but doesn't demand that it is used as an outer layer.
The requirement for female crew to wear a winter coat into a ME destination in 40 degree heat and your duty of care as a commander is another potential example.
I'm pleased it's not a real question though and agree it's an amalgamation of 2 questions.

wiggy

24th Oct 2016, 09:09

The requirement for female crew to wear a winter coat into a ME destination in 40 degree heat and your duty of care as a commander is another potential example.

Please s t , that's such an incredible/daft scenario nobody here will believe it's worthy of an answer...:ok: :ok:

sudden twang

24th Oct 2016, 09:26

Oh yeah you'd only have that as an example AFTER you'd got the job,my bad.

wiggy

24th Oct 2016, 10:37

..yep, and you'll only realise after you've got the job just how much time and effort is spent by some in trying to avoid spending a penny more of the flight ops budget......but I digress....

BTW what's the answer to the question ? :hmm:

shabon

26th Oct 2016, 19:21

Joined around 6 months ago, last few months of submitting preferences have resulted in a total of zero of those preferences becoming reality (and they weren't particularly unrealistic!)

The swapping system however works well and gives junior guys like myself a chance to control things to an extent.

Jwscud

26th Oct 2016, 19:25

Expect to work 3 out of 4 weekends per month roughly. If you are a sharp swapper and user of open time that can be reduced if you can hack the minimum 2 local nights rest at base or are willing to back to back the 3 day African trips.

Blind lines thus far as someone 80-90% down the fleet list are pretty good. Preferences depend on how you use them - if you ask for lots of things you are unlikely to get much. If you make one or two, you are more likely to be in luck. Whenever I have needed a specific day or weekend off, solely putting that as your preferences or a call to preops have solved the problem.

Trip swapping with other guys on the fleet is what really allows you control of your life. In the months I've been on line, I've never flown more than one or two of the trips on my original line, and never once flown the roster I was originally given.

It's a great fleet, you'll love it.

Edit to say strange that my experience with preferences is so different, maybe Ive just been lucky thus far.

FullClimb

1st Nov 2016, 10:06

Has anybody heard any rustlings regarding any more long haul positions becoming available or is it still only short haul?

Hearing that the bid results have been delayed?

mr ripley

1st Nov 2016, 15:41

The requirement for female crew to wear a winter coat into a ME destination in 40 degree heat and your duty of care as a commander is another potential example.
High of 21 Low of 6 tomorrow

mr ripley

1st Nov 2016, 15:44

wiggy

1st Nov 2016, 16:04

Agreed, but we have been here before when eMaestro was introduced, what, a decade or so back? Given the current state of play excluding the "whim of the person" in management seems to be the big problem..

Denti

2nd Nov 2016, 08:30

Swapping and sector swapping is the way ahead. Can completely re-write the roster and extend or reduce trip length. All subject to FTLs. The beauty is that if its legal then it can be done, via computer and not at the whim of a person.

Just out of interest, is there an issue with overtime or is there no overtime payment with BA? We have serious limits on my outfit on swapping because of course some try to maximise overtime while others try to maximise leasure time.

Pork chop express

2nd Nov 2016, 12:51

O/T is paid at a rate of 1.25 so isn't particularly appealing to many! Certainly when they are desperate the offer of Clash and Protect is there which basically means you go on a trip earlier than the one you were rostered often over a weekend but you keep the credit for the trip that you've been clashed off so essentially you are paid twice which is lucrative if you can get it.! (Hope that makes sense)
It has all but dried up on the 744 in the RHS this year it could well be there on other fleets though but its best not to count on it as its not consistent generally.
:ok: