BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[A340Yumyum]

I had mentioned I wanted SH LGW

Have you been to see a Dr recently?
;-)

[burnable gomi]

Does BA have status pay? Same pay no matter what fleet you are on? If so wouldn't short haul get you senior much more quickly and therefore more control of your roster?

I'm trying to compare salaries. What would a 5/10/15/20/25 year BA captain earn on PP24 and PP34?

[wiggy]

Does BA have status pay? Same pay no matter what fleet you are on? If so wouldn't short haul get you senior much more quickly and therefore more control of your roster??

It’s what you are actually able to get control of that’s the problem...and still a bit of an unknown with JSS.

Compare and contrast the grumbles we hears about short haul rosters that have umpteen days of consecutive work and a nasty mixture of “lates” and earlies” vs. the grumbles about having to four or five trips in a month, three of which are HKGs and therefore not getting a weekend off....(not making that 3 HKG in a month grumble up BTW, it was made publically by a junior 380 P2 recently)

Different strokes, apples vs. Oranges etc.

[738BusDriver]

Hi all,

I did stage 3, 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from recruitment team yet. We were told we would hear within 2 weeks. Anyone waiting a similar time?

Thanks.

[Phantom4]

Hi all,

I did stage 3, 3 weeks ago and haven’t heard from recruitment team yet. We were told we would hear within 2 weeks. Anyone waiting a similar time?

Thanks.
737,Ring them up,sometimes they forget to get back to you.Happened to someone close to me

[MikeAlpha320]

Get your application in before everyone else beats you to it... offer of a 2.3% pay rise with over a billion pound profit :D

What an insult.

[red9]

Get your application in before everyone else beats you to it... 2.3% pay rise with over a billion pound profit :D

What an insult.

How the hell did BALPA let them get away with that ???????

[BitMoreRightRudder]

How the hell did BALPA let them get away with that ???????

They haven’t. It’s the derisory BA response to a pay claim that is far more substantial. It will be rejected out of hand by all unions involved.

If you join now you will get treated with contempt by any and all management but you will get a lovely centenary tie pin.

Swings and Roundabouts.

[SinBin]

Well I was stood next to a new batch of DEPs yesterday in the CRC, all looking super happy. All carrying a cardboard box, I wonder what was in there?!

[GS-Alpha]

That all depends on whether it was centenary pin sized or iPad sized?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

All carrying a cardboard box, I wonder what was in there?!

Vaseline??

[MikeAlpha320]

Vaseline??





:D:D

Give it 6 months and see how happy they are working every weekend, constantly changing early/late and working ridiculous rostering patterns. But we have leave? They'll just fit all the hours into the rest of the month!

[MikeAlpha320]

Sadly there isn't much better alternatives out there. It may not be perfect but it isn't exactly a bad gig is it.


I never had pay withheld at previous (cap overrun). I understand Christmas NCP has also been 'missed'. SH rostering is far better elsewhere. Its great to see BALPA standing up given the company response to the pay deal, though.

[BizJetJockey]

When was the last time BA released slots for the 3rd stage?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Its great to see BALPA standing up given the company response to the pay deal, though.

Agreed. Let’s see how far the courage for a fight goes over an insulting pay offer. That said, the initial pay claim was very weak given the current profitability of the airline.

Not sure if this has been discussed before but has a Fixed Pattern Roster ever been explored? Had it at a previous company many moons ago and it made a HUGE differerece when it was introduced. It has big benefits without really costing the company a penny save for the extra manpower hours required to administer it. I reckon it would decrease sickness and fatigue which would more than payfor those office hours.

Any thoughts from applicants at EZY, FR & DHK?

[MikeAlpha320]

Agreed. Let’s see how far the courage for a fight goes over an insulting pay offer. That said, the initial pay claim was very weak given the current profitability of the airline.

Not sure if this has been discussed before but has a Fixed Pattern Roster ever been explored? Had it at a previous company many moons ago and it made a HUGE differerece when it was introduced. It has big benefits without really costing the company a penny save for the extra manpower hours required to administer it. I reckon it would decrease sickness and fatigue which would more than payfor those office hours.

Any thoughts from applicants at EZY, FR & DHK?


Would never get fixed roster at BA I don't think. It doesn't guarantee you every weekend off/ specific days of the week people bid for. Senior guys/girls wouldn't let it happen IMHO. I think it would be great to get some more days off but can't see it happening!

[RexBanner]

For what it’s worth I quite like a random roster in the sense that yeah you might only get a couple of days off after a long six (or even seven!) days but to balance that you get 5+ days off somewhere else which are far more useful for commuting than just three days for instance. Horses for courses I suppose but I wouldn’t welcome a 5354 pattern at all.

[PilotStepper]

To anyone that has attended stage 1 recently - can you recommend any online software for practice?

[wiggy]

Not sure if this has been discussed before but has a Fixed Pattern Roster ever been explored?

Certainly not at BA during my aeons at the company.


Had it at a previous company many moons ago and it made a HUGE differerece when it was introduced. It has big benefits without really costing the company a penny save for the extra manpower hours required to administer it.



I think I can see how fixed pattern could work quite well somewhere that is pretty much limited to day trips but I think it would tough to do it on BA Shorthaul due to the mix of single day trips, night stops through to multi day tours,without getting rosters very limited in their variety. It would probably be a complete non starter on Longhaul where you have anything from the odd (very odd) day trip right through to the 9 day trip down to SYD on the 777.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Certainly not during my aeons at the company.



I think can see how it could work quite well somewhere that has limited nightstops but I think it would tough to do it on BA Shorthaul with the mix of day trips and tours, and probably a complete non starter on Longhaul where you have anything from the odd (very odd) day trip right through to the 9 day trip down to SYD on the 777.





FWIW it was decided at said company that it wasn't possible to implement Fixed Patterns on the LH aspect of the company but it worked REALLY well on the SH side where we were doing almost exclusively day stops all over Europe. The flying was a mix of 1-4 sector duty periods. Not everyone was on it or indeed wanted it but the ones that did want it and got it were generally very happy with the rostering part of the job.

I'm just thinking maybe BALPA could have made real inroads into improving conditions for our SH colleagues rather than just chasing money money money (and not much of it at that in this particular claim!) The numbers clambering to achieve part time would suggest money isn't the be all and end all. Possibly a conversation for another thread but just my thoughts.

[ChrisE]

Quick question - I applied for DEP in October and am still going through the recruitment process. The application is now split between 777/787 or A320/A350/A380. I've been placed into the latter bracket, despite only having a few hundred airbus hours. Will this have any bearing on fleet offer if successful? Or is it still a 'placed where needed' system?

Thanks

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Quick question - I applied for DEP in October and am still going through the recruitment process. The application is now split between 777/787 or A320/A350/A380. I've been placed into the latter bracket, despite only having a few hundred airbus hours. Will this have any bearing on fleet offer if successful? Or is it still a 'placed where needed' system?

Thanks

From what I garnered on a recent internal conversion course, the training system is at max chat and will remain so for some time to come. So while the systems needs will always feature heavily, the current rating on your licence will also be taken into account as minimal footprint on the training system is now more important than ever.

That said, a guy I know who is airbus rated applied to the general DEP LH recruitment (and was then labelled A320/A350/A380 when they recently split it) has just been offered 777.

It remains a variable feast. Best of luck with it.

[8029848s]

2 Whites..2 Reds...

No the stratergy is correct.

SH work / life balance is top of a list of items to be addressed, most likely departmentally at the back end of the ongoing corporate pay deal.

A return of the duty rig from 1.8 to 2.0 to be specific but the financial figure to achieve this is relatively small.

Cold hard cash pays for mortgages, buys part time ( when available) pays for schools etc etc.

The current plan for this summer is so ambitious that it will most likely fall apart due LTS, fatigue, etc so Flt Ops will have to do something about it anyway.

Why solve their issues at the front end of a pay negotionation? We are about to post huge profits....go for the cash while it is there would be my advice.

[captain8]

Why solve their issues at the front end of a pay negotionation? We are about to post huge profits....go for the cash while it is there would be my advice.

Same case at CX/EK and most every other airline these days. Seems only BA actually will type rate without taking it out of pay etc.

What happens when there are insufficient pilots who are able and/or willing to try to pass the BA selection process? Will they up pay, or change the process, as they did in the mid 90s?

[ChrisE]

From what I garnered on a recent internal conversion course, the training system is at max chat and will remain so for some time to come. So while the systems needs will always feature heavily, the current rating on your licence will also be taken into account as minimal footprint on the training system is now more important than ever.

That said, a guy I know who is airbus rated applied to the general DEP LH recruitment (and was then labelled A320/A350/A380 when they recently split it) has just been offered 777.

It remains a variable feast. Best of luck with it.

Great, thanks for the info. I've just gone back to the A32X fleet at my current employer from the B757/767 so I guess BA will be spoilt with choice should I progress further.

[Right Engine]

2 Whites..2 Reds...
A return of the duty rig from 1.8 to 2.0 to be specific but the financial figure to achieve this is relatively small.

The current plan for this summer is so ambitious that it will most likely fall apart due LTS, fatigue, etc so Flt Ops will have to do something about it anyway.

I think you meant return the Duty Rig from 2.0 to 1.8. This would mean most low credit 4 sector days will attract up to an extra 45 minutes credit and the odd 2 day 6 sector similar. The overall cost would be around 800 hours extra credit for the same monthly work requirement. Equivalent to 9 extra Captains and copilots on the Airbus.
Getting agreement from Finance for that would be tough.

[ChaseIt]

Not to long ago their was barely any recruitment at BA, now it seems that every few months their are opportunities and even road shows. Is BA getting desperate or just very picky?

[ETOPS]

was barely any recruitment at BA

Not certain that is correct. BA have recruited around 250 new hires every year for some time now. There have also been cadet schemes, on and off, as well.
The combination of expansion against retirements, resignations and medical failures has driven a steady flow - gross employment increasing from 3500 heads 5 years ago to around 4100 today.

[wiggy]

Not to long ago their was barely any recruitment at BA,


Just to add to ETOPS’s comments....there was pretty much zero for 15 years from mid 70’s through late 80’s but ever since the first batch of “modern” :ooh: DEPs and Prestwick cadets joined (in I think ‘88) there has been a pretty steady trickle of recruitment over the years, even during the 10 years when retirements almost stopped due to the change in the retirement age (there was however still an incoming trickle simply due to ill Heath attrition and/or people simply leaving anyway before 65).

I agreew ith ETOPS that the upturn we are seeing at the moment is I suspect based on nothing more sinister than the need to replace those now retiring at or close to 65, plus some expansion.

[ChaseIt]

Cheers lads, overlooked such facts. Must just be more visibile with advertisement.

[no sponsor]

Add the fact that many many more people have chosen to go part-time, particularly in short haul, then you have the reasons why recruitment is running. To understand why you’d have to do a year or so of flying in BA SH....

There are more than a 1000 pilots now in BA than there was 7 years ago. The BMI takeover accounts for about 300 of those, the rest recruitment.

[GS-Alpha]

There was a recruitment ban which lasted several years in the early noughties too. NAPS was closed to new BA employees sometime in 2003 and the ban had already been in place for a significant period of time at that point. I remember the BALPA mantra was that they could not legally do anything until the first pilot was recruited without a NAPS pension. I think it was several years until that actually happened, by which time it seems the membership had got used to the idea, and voted to accept BARP for new pilots. I cannot remember how long the recruitment ban lasted, but I would guess close to five years?

[FRYVA]

Hello folks,

Couple of quick questions...

a) I have recently been offered an interview date 2 weeks or so back but whenever I try to click on a date there is nothing there (“No entries so far”). Any top tips for actually getting a foot in the door here?

b) I have c.6000 total with A320, A330/A350 on my licence (despite never flying the A350 but, alas...) . Current on both. To be blunt, knowing what I do I have zero interest in SH at BA. Any idea what fleet I would likely be offered? And, if for example, I was offered the A350, what, if any, is the chances of the old bait and switch before starting onto the A320?

Many thanks in advance 👍🏻

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

A few guys I know have struggled getting an interview date sorted. From what I gather it’s just a case of patiently waiting for slots to open up and keep checking. Frustrating I know.

As for what fleet you might get offered.....being Bus rated doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll use that but would imagine they’ll try to if poss. As I said above, a guy I know is A330/A350 currently and has a start date on the 777. A350 DEP’s are probably a way off yet judging by the internal comms but never say never.

You could literally be offered anything but wouldn’t expect BA to start you on something and then switch you to the 320 on day one. As I said, never say never.

Best of luck with it.

[red9]

Hello folks,

Couple of quick questions...

a) I have recently been offered an interview date 2 weeks or so back but whenever I try to click on a date there is nothing there (“No entries so far”). Any top tips for actually getting a foot in the door here?

b) I have c.6000 total with A320, A330/A350 on my licence (despite never flying the A350 but, alas...) . Current on both. To be blunt, knowing what I do I have zero interest in SH at BA. Any idea what fleet I would likely be offered? And, if for example, I was offered the A350, what, if any, is the chances of the old bait and switch before starting onto the A320?

Many thanks in advance 👍🏻



I would expect you to be offered the A320 with a seniority number of around 4600

[clvf88]

FRYVA,

I know two people with current 320 ratings, and no Boeing experience, whom have recently started on the 777. It does seem rather hard to predict what fleet you will be offered and seems very dependent on needs at that time (/ day!). This assumes long haul suitability demonstrated in the sim of course.

I'm sure someone will have a contrary story, but I have been told that offers have only ever been changed on a very small number of occasions and this has always been from one LH fleet to another. If you're not interested in SH, personally, I'd not worry about the 'bait and switch' you describe.

Good luck.

[FRYVA]

Many thanks for the replies, most informative 👍🏻

[A340Yumyum]

Hello folks,

Couple of quick questions...

a) I have recently been offered an interview date 2 weeks or so back but whenever I try to click on a date there is nothing there (“No entries so far”). Any top tips for actually getting a foot in the door here?

b) I have c.6000 total with A320, A330/A350 on my licence (despite never flying the A350 but, alas...) . Current on both. To be blunt, knowing what I do I have zero interest in SH at BA. Any idea what fleet I would likely be offered? And, if for example, I was offered the A350, what, if any, is the chances of the old bait and switch before starting onto the A320?

Many thanks in advance 👍🏻




They choose your suitability for LH/SH depending on how well you do in the Sim.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

They choose your suitability for LH/SH depending on how well you do in the Sim.

This assumes long haul suitability demonstrated in the sim of course.


Surely there is only one standard in your initial selection sim. And that would be the BA standard. How do they assess you are suitable for long haul in your selection sim? Sounds like nonsense.

[bex88]

Some would have you believe those who excel go to LH. Those that just meet the standard go to SH to gain experience. 🤔 sounds like a lot of rubbish to me.

Ex BMI pilots.......there are no more than 180-200 now.

[clvf88]

Surely there is only one standard in your initial selection sim. And that would be the BA standard. How do they assess you are suitable for long haul in your selection sim? Sounds like nonsense.



It might be nonsense, but its true.

EDIT - To be clear, you get.determined as LH suitable or not. That doesn't mean you'll be a assigned a LH fleet, just that you can be. And it certainly doesn't imply that the 'cream' are all being sent LH.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

It might be nonsense, but its true.

EDIT - To be clear, you get.determined as LH suitable or not. That doesn't mean you'll be a assigned a LH fleet, just that you can be. And it certainly doesn't imply that the 'cream' are all being sent LH.

So, what criteria is used in the sim to determine if someone is suitable for LH or not?

You will require an unfrozen ATPL and I’m guessing 2,000 hours anyway.

[Jwscud]

The short answer is are you likely to get through to the line in absolute minimum time, given that the course is compressed to the absolute legal minimum and your 7th landing on type will be during your final check.

Training capacity is is bursting at the seams, and BA have some very unusual ways of doing things that take time to get used to if you come from somewhere more sensible.

[Phantom4]

Long Haul suitability is your ability to effectively demonstrate the transition from your present type to the 767 sim at this time during the assessment.In short how good are your pure handling skills and whether you can cope with just two or three landings in marginal weather on LH type.Used to be in excess of 2000 hours,but assessment has evolved and is the judgement of the assessor,subjective.
Just heard 737 applicant,sim on Monday,777 offered Tuesday. Good luck.

[AFA]

Long Haul suitability is your ability to effectively demonstrate the transition from your present type to the 767 sim at this time during the assessment.In short how good are your pure handling skills and whether you can cope with just two or three landings in marginal weather on LH type.Used to be in excess of 2000 hours,but assessment has evolved and is the judgement of the assessor,subjective.
Just heard 737 applicant,sim on Monday,777 offered Tuesday. Good luck.

Does this not lead to the slightly odd situation of current LH pilots being offered SH & all the super current young SH pilots being offered LH slots?
After 18yrs of one or two landings a month on long haul it’s safe to say my pure handling skills were better when I was 19 flying Highlands & Islands in an ATP - so I’d now be sent SH A320 to improve I guess!!

[Right Engine]

It might be nonsense, but its true.

EDIT - To be clear, you get.determined as LH suitable or not. That doesn't mean you'll be a assigned a LH fleet, just that you can be. And it certainly doesn't imply that the 'cream' are all being sent LH.

Long Haul will slowly over the years degrade your skills due to the fact you perform about 1/5th of the sectors you do on Short Haul. Short Haul is a proving ground, where the less experienced get 5 times more exposure to operational decision making, crosswinds, marginal weather (etc the list is long)
The likelihood is once you get put into a LH fleet at BA, you will probably never leave. It is therefore important that LH takes the most experienced DEP's for the wide bodies. So essentially recruitment are saying to anyone who is offered short haul only "You have all the skills but lack the experience" or "You have the experience but the skills need some work"

It's up to the applicant to choose which assessment was made!

[VinRouge]

Anyone know what the current wait time is for people in the hold pool?

its a a very thin puddle

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

You could literally be offered anything but wouldn’t expect BA to start you on something and then switch you to the 320 on day one. As I said, never say never.


Merely for illustration, two chaps whom I know well, both with plenty of 4-jet command time, were offered 777 and 747. Then, during their first week with BA, whilst doing induction and generic SEP training, they were suddenly switched to the 767 and A320 respectively! So yes, it does happen.

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Not certain that is correct. BA have recruited around 250 new hires every year for some time now. There have also been cadet schemes, on and off, as well.
The combination of expansion against retirements, resignations and medical failures has driven a steady flow - gross employment increasing from 3500 heads 5 years ago to around 4100 today.

I started almost exactly 4 years ago. Looking at the seniority numbers of folk doing conversion courses this month, there have been almost 1000 new starts in that time period, so you're bang on the money!

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Have you been to see a Dr recently?
;-)

If you think about it, SH LGW is not a bad decision as a new start, depending on where you live and what your priorities are. Mostly day trips, so pretty decent if you live nearby. Relative seniority isn't going to matter so much, and whichever Heathrow fleet you'd be on as a DEP, you'll not be getting weekends off anyway with JSS. No more cushy blind lines at Heathrow.

Anyone joining as a LH DEP is going to be super junior for a very, very long time, unless of course they bid for right seat short haul after a few years! Whether you're towards the bottom of 700 FOs on the 777 or on a small fleet like the 380 (which arguably, though, only has good trips), you're going to stagnate in that position every time a short haul FO with more seniority joins your fleet and leapfrogs you.

How long do you think it's going to take to reach 50% on the 777 list as a DEP FO? Maybe a decade?

[RexBanner]

Longer. I flew with a Gatwick captain who’d been in 13 years and he still hadn’t got to 50% on the P77L status list by relative seniority.

[Jwscud]

However, at c80% and full time on the P777 list I am getting pretty much what I want out of JSS. Those joining the fleet above me tend to replace those leaving to commands or other fleets, and the recruitment rate is such that I am still edging up the list. You don’t need to be 50% on the list to have a pleasant lifestyle by any means. The list is also skewed as the top third are waiting for a long haul command rather than returning to the Airbus.

Being junior on a large fleet like the 777 is pretty reasonable as there is a lot of varied work to go around, and as long as you don’t want to go to CPT/PUJ and the like pretty much everything else filters all the way down.

[VinceR]

Being junior on a large fleet like the 777 is pretty reasonable as there is a lot of varied work to go around, and as long as you don’t want to go to CPT/PUJ and the like pretty much everything else filters all the way down.


With 80%, how many weekends off can you expect to get every month ?

[FACoff]

With 80%, how many weekends off can you expect to get every month ?

On the 320, none (without leave). You need to be in the top two thirds before weekends start appearing with any kind of regularity.

[WhatTheDeuce]

Ignoring, of course, those lower than that who actually have 1, 2 or 3 weekends off...

[RexBanner]

With regards to complaints about working every weekend and changing from earlies to lates. At a regional airline in the UK, there is no fixed pattern roster. You will go from six earlies with one day off to five lates with two or three days off. It can also work in reverse (six lates with two days off to five earlies, thereby giving you the minimum amount of time off). There are stories of captains working seven days in a row because there is such a shortage (and this is the winter schedule, bear in mind). Many of the shifts worked are frequently four, five or six-sector days. Some of the duties rostered leave crews with 10 minutes extra over the minimum 12 hours rest. Factor in the drive home...

Absolutely EVERYTHING listed here happened last year on Short Haul at this very airline (apart from six sector days of course but having done them myself at Flybe I’d take them in a heartbeat over a St Petersburg link).

[The Mixmaster]

I've been reading this thread for longer than I care to remember and I have a few things to throw into the mix regarding the gripes people seem to have with BA.

At a regional airline in the UK, the pay deal initially offered gave Captains a one off four-figure sum and left the person in the right hand seat with nothing. Naturally, BALPA members voted quite overwhelmingly to reject this offer. A new offer was tabled which was 1.29% for every member of flight crew. This was accepted by members.

With regards to complaints about working every weekend and changing from earlies to lates. At a regional airline in the UK, there is no fixed pattern roster. You will go from six earlies with one day off to five lates with two or three days off. It can also work in reverse (six lates with two days off to five earlies, thereby giving you the minimum amount of time off). There are stories of captains working seven days in a row because there is such a shortage (and this is the winter schedule, bear in mind). Many of the shifts worked are frequently four, five or six-sector days. Some of the duties rostered leave crews with 10 minutes extra over the minimum 12 hours rest. Factor in the drive home...

There are stories of crews who are operating out of base for several days at a time to cover the shortfalls. Forget seeing your family grow up!

There are a number of other things that could be mentioned, however in the spirit of remaining anonymous, I'll leave it there.

Now tell me why BA is so bad?

So because BA is slightly less sh*t the gripes are less valid? You lost us all when you started comparing BA to a regional UK carrier. Compare KLM/Lufthansa/Air France work life balance and pay on their SH fleets with BA’s and then get back to us.

[CW247]

Been at 3 Brit airlines based in the London area over the last decade. I've had the majority of my weekends off. A rostering system with only a 50% bias towards seniority with the remaining 50% of the roster being randomly assigned sounds like a better solution, if it can be implemented. I can hear the excuses already!

[MikeAlpha320]

I've been reading this thread for longer than I care to remember and I have a few things to throw into the mix regarding the gripes people seem to have with BA.

At a regional airline in the UK, the pay deal initially offered gave Captains a one off four-figure sum and left the person in the right hand seat with nothing. Naturally, BALPA members voted quite overwhelmingly to reject this offer. A new offer was tabled which was 1.29% for every member of flight crew. This was accepted by members.

With regards to complaints about working every weekend and changing from earlies to lates. At a regional airline in the UK, there is no fixed pattern roster. You will go from six earlies with one day off to five lates with two or three days off. It can also work in reverse (six lates with two days off to five earlies, thereby giving you the minimum amount of time off). There are stories of captains working seven days in a row because there is such a shortage (and this is the winter schedule, bear in mind). Many of the shifts worked are frequently four, five or six-sector days. Some of the duties rostered leave crews with 10 minutes extra over the minimum 12 hours rest. Factor in the drive home...

There are stories of crews who are operating out of base for several days at a time to cover the shortfalls. Forget seeing your family grow up!

There are a number of other things that could be mentioned, however in the spirit of remaining anonymous, I'll leave it there.

Now tell me why BA is so bad?

BA isn't a regional airline in the UK? Struggle to see your point. Why don't you compare it something remotely similar?

[Jwscud]

Under JSS thus far I’ve managed a minimum of 4 weekend days off per month, in both cases with one full weekend off and the other days saturdays with late reports on Sunday. Throw in some trips landing before 0900 on a Sunday and you can get a surprising amount of weekend time with the family if you live relatively close to LHR.

This is actually much much better than I used to get on a blind line, where the work left over was disproportionality low credit weekend work.

[MikeAlpha320]

Under JSS thus far I’ve managed a minimum of 4 weekend days off per month, in both cases with one full weekend off and the other days saturdays with late reports on Sunday. Throw in some trips landing before 0900 on a Sunday and you can get a surprising amount of weekend time with the family if you live relatively close to LHR.

This is actually much much better than I used to get on a blind line, where the work left over was disproportionality low credit weekend work.


wait till the senior boys learn to bid :E (and cap+4 in summer!)

[RexBanner]

VOR.DME with respect, I think you should leave it there. Yes there are many people here who don’t know anything different but I’m BA, I’ve spent time at Flybe doing six sector days and a lot of the things you are grumbling about and I’ve also worked at Wizz Air. Unless you have experienced pay, CRM, attitudes and intimidation from management and the brutal rostering at Wizz you have no idea how far the bottom of the barrel actually goes. So yes there are worse places, but that’s not to say the grumbles highlighted here aren’t justified, some of them very much are. Does a man who lost his legs on 7/7 not have the right to complain because others died? Extreme example but there’s always someone worse off, we shouldn’t be using that justify an untenable position and a degradation in conditions.

[DuctOvht]

....and seemingly you’d be surprised at just how many BA pilots have ‘cut their teeth’ elsewhere. Most likely the majority of the pilot workforce.

With respect, you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

[eckhard]

I’ve instructed 3,500hrs in Cessnas and Pipers, flown air taxi and air survey in Aztecs, Senecas, Doves and Navajos, did a three year stint on exec jets and then ten years on 737 Charter ops before joining BA.

So, I reckon I’ve cut my teeth.

Now I fly a lovely new BA 787 from the LHS and I do feel very privileged and lucky.

BA is still great compared to most other UK pilot jobs, but could be so much better for comparatively little extra investment and things have definitely gone downhill in the twenty years that I’ve been here.

I don’t have a lot to complain about but I would support others in BA who do.

[wiggy]

Back in my box I go then!

If you are, don’t take it personally..there are still many out there who think that absolutely everybody at BA is a Nigel who went to finishing school and then joined BA via Hamble or some sort of cadet scheme.

The reality these days is most of the current BA line pilots have indeed “cut their teeth” in variety of flying jobs with all sorts of operators and organisations prior to joining the company as a DEP in their thirties, forties or even a bit older...

[eckhard]

Hi VOR.DME,

No offence taken and none intended!

As Wiggy said, most of the guys and gals that I fly with are ex military and/or DEPs from other airlines. Makes for an interesting mix of people (but all fitting the BA selection profile, whatever that is).

On the odd occasion that I come across a Cadet, sponsored or self-funded, who joined BA straight out of Oxford or wherever, I can’t help feeling a little sorry for them for missing the variety of experience that I enjoyed. OTOH, if one of my kids had that opportunity, I wouldn’t try to talk them out of it.

I had a good position and base in the 737 Charter world and it was a tough decision to join BA at the age of 42. I’m glad I did but I wouldn’t presume to advise others to do the same as it’s now a different time and situation. In any case, it’s not a one-way street as some have recently shown by going back to whence they came. Good luck to all.

[Nauti]

Has anybody who applied in the latest window (ended on the 31st) heard anything back re: their application?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

How long do you think it's going to take to reach 50% on the 777 list as a DEP FO? Maybe a decade?

Less at the moment but thats based on the current rate of recruitment continuing.

I’ve been in just under 4 years, currently hovering around 75% on the 777.

[GS-Alpha]

Less at the moment but thats based on the current rate of recruitment continuing.

I’ve been in just under 4 years, currently hovering around 75% on the 777.
You joined just at the head of the latest crazy wave of recruitment then. It is the same story on the 747 because there has been unprecedented DEP recruitment over that time. Someone joining now still has many people to come in behind them, but they also have the last 4 or 5 years worth of shorthaul DEPs and FPPs who are eagerly awaiting a move to long haul. I also would not be surprised if we start seeing some of the more junior short haul captains decide they would prefer to move RHS long haul due to the decline in their quality of life due to JSS.

[wiggy]

Someone joining now still has many people to come in behind them, but they also have the last 4 or 5 years worth of shorthaul DEPs and FPPs who are eagerly awaiting a move to long haul.

They may have many people coming in behind, who knows? ... That said you are right to point out that all things being equal and agreements staying "as is" they are behind everybody who has joined before them. In my experience guessing where someone will be in terms of fleet seniority in 4-5 years time is making themselves hostage to fortune..

I also would not be surprised if we start seeing some of the more junior short haul captains decide they would prefer to move RHS long haul due to the decline in their quality of life due to JSS.

That could well start happening, and FWIW judging by a conversation on Yammer very recently there is more than one short haul captain considering/discussing going back to RHS short haul due JSS.....

[red9]

They may have many people coming in behind, who knows? ... That said you are right to point out that all things being equal and agreements staying "as is" they are behind everybody who has joined before them. In my experience guessing where someone will be in terms of fleet seniority in 4-5 years time is making themselves hostage to fortune..



there is more than one short haul captain considering/discussing going back to RHS short haul due JSS.....

Certainly a lot more than one would have thought.....

[RexBanner]

Someone joining now still has many people to come in behind them, but they also have the last 4 or 5 years worth of shorthaul DEPs and FPPs who are eagerly awaiting a move to long haul.


But who won’t get it because the company now prefers to hire Direct Entry Pilots straight into long haul due cost at the expense of First Officers on the airbus. Direct Entry A350 actually made me want to be sick, it’s about as big a slap to the face of the Airbus P2 community as you could possibly imagine.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

At what point during the process can you state a preference for SH/LH, and when are you told whether you’ve got LH/SH? Im potentially interested for the future but SH wouldn’t work for me.

Is it a case of being willing to jack in the current job, joining (if they’d have me) then just keeping fingers crossed?

[Capt Ecureuil]

But who won’t get it because the company now prefers to hire Direct Entry Pilots straight into long haul due cost at the expense of First Officers on the airbus. Direct Entry A350 actually made me want to be sick, it’s about as big a slap to the face of the Airbus P2 community as you could possibly imagine.



But that's been going on for the last 30 plus years so hardly new, except the SH fleet wasn't Airbus if that's a consideration.

(DEP who joined straight on the most senior fleet at the time)

[GS-Alpha]

red9 are you still frozen?

[clvf88]

At what point during the process can you state a preference for SH/LH, and when are you told whether you’ve got LH/SH? Im potentially interested for the future but SH wouldn’t work for me.

Is it a case of being willing to jack in the current job, joining (if they’d have me) then just keeping fingers crossed?
I didn't get a chance to express a preference for LH/SH - and nor do I think it would be wise to voice one.

I was in a similar situation as you - I wouldn't have been able to accept SH due to family commitments and the long commute. I took the view that I would just go through the motions and see what I was offered, then make up my mind. I'm not sure either party benefit from this and it would seem sensible for both to state their intentions from the outset; but what do I know.

[Daily Dalaman Dave]

I didn't get a chance to express a preference for LH/SH - and nor do I think it would be wise to voice one.

I was in a similar situation as you - I wouldn't have been able to accept SH due to family commitments and the long commute. I took the view that I would just go through the motions and see what I was offered, then make up my mind. I'm not sure either party benefit from this and it would seem sensible for both to state their intentions from the outset; but what do I know.

Thanks for that. Last one from me, PPJN states that year 1 FO base salary is £55k 😬. What is realistic net monthly take home pay for SH/LH....presuming LH get more in the way of allowances?

Cheers

[RexBanner]

But that's been going on for the last 30 plus years so hardly new, except the SH fleet wasn't Airbus if that's a consideration.

(DEP who joined straight on the most senior fleet at the time)

Yes it’s been going on but not in the numbers we’re seeing right now. In a year where there are potentially 350 recruits less than 100 airbus FO’s have valid moves elsewhere (at last count) suggesting that the majority of this year’s recruits will be going to the long haul fleets. That’s wrong and it’s in complete contrast to the recruitment team’s assertion that the A320 is the primary recruitment fleet. I’m not even moaning necessarily about a longer wait for long haul, it’s stopping the junior guys in the Airbus RHS from moving up their respective list and getting better bidding power. It shafts every airbus FO in its own little way in complete isolation, but of course the company couldn’t give a sh1t about Short Haul and even less about SH FO’s so it doesn’t matter.

I genuinely don’t aim this at and bear no ill will towards people who take a DEP position on the Long Haul fleets, I’d do exactly the same in their position and would have done had it been offered. What I didn’t count on in accepting a SH offer was the majority of recruitment after me being on the long haul fleets and not only slowing down the move to Long Haul but not even seeing the benefit of better rosters in the meantime in a time of mass recruitment. Buyers remorse.

[GS-Alpha]

Rex, I’ve just had a quick look through the PRIAM results. It’s not the easiest document to just skim through and decode, but are you arguing that BA should be releasing people from equipment freezes before allowing recruitment onto fleets that those frozen pilots have bid for? I cannot immediately see any short haul pilot who is unfrozen and has the seniority for their requested move, who does not have a valid bid. BA have a requirement for pilots in various locations and they obviously want to do that as cheaply as possible. That’s the whole point of the equipment freeze period.

If you are talking about pilots who have served their time and are unfrozen, then I absolutely agree with you 100%, but I cannot quickly find any such cases.

[Capt Ecureuil]

Yes it’s been going on but not in the numbers we’re seeing right now.

I seem to remember and certainly in percentage terms it was.

I do appreciate your frustration however.

[GS-Alpha]

I don’t understand where numbers of people being recruited onto other fleets makes a difference to the pain of an equipment freeze. Everyone has the same freeze when they first join. A few lucky people do get released before the end of their freeze period, and always have done if it suits the company, but it’s fairly rare. When you’ve served your 5 years, you jump to your next fleet of choice ahead of everyone that joined since you. If a large number of people have been recruited onto your new fleet since you joined, it is actually much better for you because you’ll join the new fleet on an even higher relative seniority. If no one had been recruited since you, you’d end up bottom of the status list on that new fleet. It has nothing to do with whether BA cares about short haul pilots. People recruited to long haul who want to get to short haul have just the same freeze. If there was no recruitment going on, you would still have your 5 year freeze just as you would if there was double the current recruitment going on.

[RexBanner]

Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, I’d be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact that’d be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? I’d say it’s pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, I’d say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that I’ll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but I’m not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so I’d take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. I’m not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.

[GS-Alpha]

Ah ok, so you are basically arguing that there should not be an engagement freeze?

[OBK!]

Let me illustrate exactly how. If everybody who had joined BA after me had joined on the Airbus, I’d be sitting comfortably in the top 10% of the status list right now. In fact that’d be the same even if 50% of new joiners had joined on the bus. How is it impossible to see how much of a difference that makes to the pain of an equipment freeze? I’d say it’s pretty easy, much better rosters. Especially being top 10% under JSS. As far as a Long Haul pilot wanting to get to Short Haul but being subjected to the same freeze goes, are you having a laugh? (If I was of a certain mind, I’d say you were almost trying to deliberately wind me up with that one ;-) )

I appreciate that I’ll slot in ahead of the more junior guys when I (eventually) get to move but as a commuter even the worst JSS lines (except maybe the jumbo, but I’m not touching that with a barge pole now) are far more straightforward for commuting so I’d take them tomorrow.

Yes equipment freeze waivers are rare, I appreciate that, but after a couple of horrendous summers now it might have been nice to say to some people in the final year of their freeze that they had been waivered to go to the A350, especially as you could do it as a short CCQ in no time. But no, more Long Haul DEP onto the shiniest newest jet in the fleet. I’m not the only one bothered by this. Not by a long shot.

Don’t you think it sounds like you want the rules to be different so you can have it your way? It used to be about 10 years to get in the top 10% of the short haul status list if that helps so you’re already doing far better than hundreds of pilots that joined before you. If only they’d had scale of movement that we’re seeing now.

It’s the same for everyone. I doubt you were bullied in to accepting short haul and commuting when you did and nothing has changed since you joined so you knew the score? You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well that’s still the case.

I’m a little baffled by your sense of entitlement mind. You’ll have a much happier existence if you just accept that your time will come when it’s your turn. Patience is all.

[BizJetJockey]

Does anyone have a sim ride coming up in the next few days?

[wiggy]

Without wishing to pile on further controversy I’d commend OBK’s comment “to the house” and given there are some optimistic estimates being handed out to prospective joiners feel I need to add the health warning that:

“past performance is not an indicator of future outcomes “

...well certainly the past performance measured over the last 4-5 years..

We’ve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didn’t predict) at BA over the past few years. That has propelled some up the short haul “fleet seniority” scale at a dizzying rate. That is not the historical norm (OBK’s 10 years to get 10% from the top of a shorthaul P2 list sounds more normal) and TBH looking at future rates of retirements from BA and forthcoming events that might effect the U.K. and other economies I’m not sure I would be making plans based on an extrapolation of current progression rates up the senority scales and bouncing across to LH PDQ...(that’s me, all optimistic as usual).

As for the controversial issue of engagement freezes, they are what they are, always have been.

Over the years there has frequently been sizeable DEP recruitment onto LH fleets...what has perhaps made things more irritating for some nowadays is that decades back the Back Every Afternoon ;) cohort were generally very happy with their day trips, Berlin postings and shuttle back up credit and they wouldn’t touch LH with a barge pole.....now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.

[Busdriver01]

You probably took shorthaul because seniority is everything? Well that’s still the case.


Would you say it’s better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until you’ve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?

[Ollie Onion]

Take the seniority as soon as you can, the difference of weeks in join date could mean years of your career being behind.

[VinRouge]

We’ve had an unusually high rate of recruitment (which hands up, I didn’t predict) at BA over the past few years.

with the retirement plot with those that decided to extend from 55, it’s not stopping any time soon. Maybe a pause with brexit if the industry takes a demand hit but even so, retirees need replacing.

Id be surprised to see it stop for the next 3 years tbh.

[wiggy]

Or wait an extra year until you’ve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?


..Short answer = what Ollie said.

Long answer= ....and if BA aren’t recruiting in a year?.

Look I know I’m in danger of starting to sound like a stuck record but on the basis of having been at BA during a couple of downturns including the fallout from 9/11 I can promise you if something comes along out of left field that adversely effects the business BA can and will slam the doors shut overnight (post 9/11 the 747 Classic Fleet was binned so fast if you blinked you missed it).

We have Brexit imminent (potential effect unknown) and if you’ve read the papers recently you’ll see reports that one or two major economies are starting to look a bit wobbly...worth bearing in mind when a lot of BA’s passengers travel for business, not leisure reasons.

Fundamentally, and despite all the optimism displayed by many here (hopefully and probably justified) there is zero, nil, no guarantee in reality that BA recruiting will continue “as is”...so if you have are read up on things like engagement freezes, T&Cs, rostering/lifestyle under JSS and still want to join BA then I’d honestly recommend you take the first post offered, regardless of fleet, and get a place on the Master Seniority List.

[Northern Monkey]

Would you say it’s better to get in ASAP, on the SH fleet, take the engagement freeze and then go LH, or wait an extra year until you’ve the hours for a DEP LH position but with a lower company seniority?

Just to re-iterate what wiggy says above, if you want a long career at BA, AND commuting is not an issue for you (ie you live relatively close to Heathrow) then I would say take the first slot that comes up. Who knows when recruitment will stop (so you might end up not getting in at all) or alternatively by waiting you might cede 300 seniority places which in the long run will come back to haunt you. Either way I can only really see downside if you definitely want to work for BA.

On the subject of direct entry long haul, I have never really understood why people see it as such a golden ticket. Perhaps with the exception of commuters for whom a short haul job would not be practical. For most though, the reality as a long haul DEP is you are going to join a fleet at the bottom, and pretty much stay there for years. Maybe if you are in your 20's and single that's not so terrible. If you have a family or other commitments it looks like a disaster to me. I would argue the lack of control for junior people under JSS coupled with some of the bruising junior rosters on long haul (6 trips a month) would take their toll on just about anyone in the timescales we are talking about - I would re-emphasise that this could go on for years and years. Perhaps that is why we are now seeing, a small but statistically significant number of resignations from Junior people who joined on long haul as DEP's only to find it was unsustainable.

The alternative is you join on the Airbus and watch your relative seniority rise quickly if recruitment continues, as I believe is likely. You get your lifestyle back far more quickly and when you do eventually go long haul, thanks to the DEPs who don't subscribe to my views, you won't start at the bottom all over again.

[Busdriver01]

Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again

[Jumbo2]

now with EASA FTLs and the hit of JSS SH has perhaps become a much less comfortable place to be.

I completely agree with Northern Monkey most of my colleagues from my joiners course just over 4 years ago would have gone LH at the first possible opportunity. However now with JSS the conversation has changed and all are considering staying another year or even two on SH to enjoy the lifestyle a bit longer while getting slightly more senior by the time we jump across to LH due to DEP LH joining.

[Busdriver01]

This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?

[ben38uk]

This may be a daft question, and is almost certainly one that’s been asked before but I can’t find anything on it...

If you’ve got a load of people who are on the 320, who started before someone DEP on a long haul fleet, and those 320 pilots move onto that same long haul fleet (even in 10 years time), does that essentially mean the DEP long haul pilot loses relative seniority, having gained it over a decade?

In other words, is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?


In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps

[Busdriver01]

Yes that’s what I had come to understand. Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly. That alone probably makes it worth getting first available position (SH or LH).

[wiggy]

is it possible that those who are joining DEP long haul now will start to see some control over their rosters, and then lose that control again down the line when people such as in the comment above move across?


Unlikely but it’s a bit of a “that depends”.. luck in and join on a new fast growing fleet and you can do well ...until the senior pilots pile in above you (been there, seen that). On a largish fleet probably the worse that could happen is your level of control stagnates, though I guess in extremis it could reduce if for some bizarre reason people below you on the Fleet transfer off. Probably the bigger threat to meaningful livestyle and lifestyle control over the years on any fleet would be a change of routes/destinations for your Fleet (happened on the 747, then again on the 744).

Though master seniority place will never get leapfrogged, fleet seniority place will regularly.

Correct...at the risk of outing myself I’ll make the observation that it has been demonstrated that it perfectly possible to sit one off the bottom of a Fleet senority list, be gaining company seniority, but at the same time, since it is an new, expanding and suddenly popular fleet see the number of pilots above you on your fleet go from about 100 to several hundred.....

[eckhard]

Thanks for the insight. I suppose I thought that, being in a fortunate position at a short haul carrier already, if I were to move to the bottom of the pile at a new airline (Not complaining about that (yet..!) everyone puts their time in and that’s the system) It’d be easier to take in the short term if I were at least flying long haul and not to the same destinations I already operate, from the same base, etc etc

Sounds like in the long term (and for me that’ll be a very long time, hopefully) it’d still be better to take the first spot.

Cheers again


That’s exactly the thought process that I went through in 1997. Luckily for me, only DEP 744 was on offer, so I eagerly took it.
Sometimes I wonder whether I would have joined if only SH had been offered? Probably not, which may have been a mistake.

I think, given your situation, that you have sussed it out quite well. LH looks to be expanding in the short/medium term and there will always be a requirement for a greater proportion of LH FOs than on SH, due to three/four crew flights. So, as you say, take the first spot. Even if it’s SH, you could well be on a LH fleet within five years. Your decision may depend on whether you can afford the pay-cut until you catch up with what you’re earning now. That in turn may depend on how keen you are to take a SH command. In any case, barring any future “events” such as 9/11, SARS, Wall St crash, etc. you should be much better off in terms of life-style and earnings in the long run.

I gave up a charter 737 TC job for BA 744 FO and yes; it was financially very tough for a few years. More time off at home and staff travel benefits helped to convince the family that it was worth it. To be honest, once I was in I never had any regrets. Floating around the world and being paid to sleep in a bunk, or lie on a beach, seemed far more desirable than LGW-TFS-LGW. Opportunities for training or management roles are also open to all, no matter how junior. I was a 747 TRI/TRE within three years of joining.

As I’ve said before, this was all 22 years ago, so please take with a pinch of salt.

Bon courage! (as they say over here).

[Daddy Fantastic]

In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps

I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.

[OBK!]

I have a question regarding the scenario you answered above. Im not sure exactly how the BA seniority systems works with regards to upgrades.

Say 2 pilots join at the same time with 3000 hours on the Embraer 145 from BMI.

One pilot is given seniority number 11 and joins SH as an FO on the A320 and the other pilot gets seniority number 12 and joins as an FO on the 787.

Both pilots get a seat lock for 5 years on their type and in that time both fly 3500 hours on the type they were assigned, 11 on the A320 and 12 on the 787.

After 5 years both pilots are free to move so 11 moves to LH on the 787 and 12 stays put on the 787.

They are now told they both qualify for upgrade, so who upgrades first, 11 with the higher seniority and no 787 experience or 12 with 3500 hours experience on the 787?

Seems crazy to me that 11 could potentially upgrade on a 787 before 12 just because of seniority.

However if 12 does upgrade first on the 787 what happens when 11 has experience on type and upgrades with regards to seniority?

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?

Could someone please explain the different scenarios.

Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.

[eckhard]

Finally can a BA A320 captain join LH on the 787 as a captain?


Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).

[Daddy Fantastic]

Scrap logic. Seniority rules. Senior pilot gets the gig, no questions asked. One thing you can rely on in BA is your number. That just about answers all your questions. “Oh you’ve got 1 million hours on the 787 and you want command?...sorry but I’m more senior and I have zero hours...step aside”.

Frustrating. But thems the agreements. And we love agreements no matter how illogical they may seem.

You will however see shifts in management not quite in accordance to the rule set. “Such and such tech airbus manager is now promoted to tech chief super boss of the 777” for example.

Thanks for the explanation.

One more thing regarding SH on the A320, which is a better base to be at out of LGW and LHR regarding trips, coming home more nights, commuting and general satisfaction etc?

[LlamaFarmer]

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744...

What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?

[followthegreens]

What does a Training Copilot at BA actually do?

Are they essentially a RHS line-trainer? TRI(A)?


TRI-TRE

No line flying training duties, that's all done by Training Captains (who are all also TRI/TRE)

[LlamaFarmer]

Ah I see...

So the
When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.
referred to the stuff in the box.

:ok:

[littco]

How long is typical, joining as DEP on say the A320 rhs to lhs.

[eckhard]

Sorry, I should have explained more clearly.

Training Copilots (TCP) are a cheap way for BA to get TRI/TRE for sim duties without having to pay a Training Captain’s (TC) training emoluments (which are pensionable). By contrast, a TCP’s emoluments are not pensionable and in any case are much lower.

The scheme originated at a time when Copilots were stuck in the RHS for years and years and Command slots were scarce. It was seen as a way of giving copilots something interesting to aim for and also prepared them for future TC roles.

Selection is by merit and interview. ‘Merit’ being evidence of a reasonably clean training record and interview being a Q and A session and a pre-sim briefing in front of a panel of senior trainers.

The successful candidate then undergoes the ‘Core Course’ to learn the fundamentals of teaching and learning, followed by a full TRI course in the sim. They then observe a number of actual sim sessions (preferably conversion courses as opposed to LPCs) before being formally assessed for the TRI Rating. They are then able to give sim instruction towards the grant of the Type Rating.

After a variable interval (in my case almost immediately), they are sent to the CAA to undertake the TRE standardisation course. This culminates in an Assessment of Competence in the company sim, after which the TRE Certificate is issued.

So far, exactly the same as for a TC.

The difference is that TCPs are not Captains, and so cannot undertake line training duties in the aircraft. This causes the TCP’s roster to be somewhat ‘sim-heavy’. In my day, we did five training months in a year, during which we would be rostered about 17 sim sessions in the month plus an actual trip for recency. I think things have changed since then.

When there were periods of few conversion courses, it got a bit tedious running the same sim check 17 times in a month! One certainly got to know the common pitfalls in the procedures. I also learned a lot about my own capabilities and picked up lots of good stuff by watching others, far better pilots than me.

One looked forward to running a series of conversion details with the same crew. It was very gratifying to see them advance and improve over three or four days, learning how to operate the Queen of the Skies.

The TCP contract was limited to three years which meant that BA didn’t have to pay for a revalidation. It also meant that others would get a chance to apply. In my case, due to a particularly busy training programme, a few of us were asked to extend by one year, so we did revalidate after all.

All in all, an enlightened programme which used the latent talent in the P2 community and was a great starting point for many a TC’s subsequent career.

[ben38uk]

Yes. Once you’re a captain in BA, you can be a captain on anything, provided you have the seniority.

My glittering career-path was: FO 744, Capt A320, Capt 787.

When I was a Training Copilot on the 744, I converted some 737 Captains onto the 747.

There were some restrictions when the A380 was introduced (some Airbus experience required).

That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.

[Tay Cough]

That seniority number is everything - I know many colleagues who delayed joining in the late '80s to get on a jet fleet and of course remained well below me.

My unusual career path was , HS 748 F/O to ATP F/O to HS748 Capt to ATP Capt to 737-400 F/O (LHR) to 737-200 Capt (Manchester) to 744 F/O to end on 744 Capt - so THREE right to left command courses but always reasonably senior in each seat position.

With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems. :E

[VinRouge]

With the joys of JSS, I can well imagine the standard BA career progression changing to R-L-R-L in the fullness of time. Brought about mainly due to any senior Longhaul FOs moving to LHS shorthaul promptly having their medicals taken away for psychological problems. :E
Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing

[Tay Cough]

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing

Do you mean RHS?

[VinRouge]

Do you mean RHS?
yep sorry. Meant RHS!

[FACoff]

In BA, Date of Joining is key. Don't get hung up on waiting for a particular fleet as over your remaining career, your seniority number is everything.
Your lifestyle will depend on relative seniority within the fleet. I believe you get full fleet change bidding rights after the first five years.
Hope this helps

Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?

[wiggy]

I’m certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

“should I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)”

what would you recommend?

[Northern Monkey]

Seniority is important, but I'm not sure I agree with this any more. Recruitment onto LH and SH fleets is almost on a par at the moment. I would question the benefit of taking SH over LH while that is the case and, moreover, projects to be the case for some time yet - especially when the tradeoff is 5 years of your life for what will invariably only be a fractional increase in seniority.

Also bear in mind that some of the people posting here have never experienced BA short haul in its current form, especially when junior (full EASA, JSS optimised, bi-monthly reserve, etc) so have no idea what they're recommending, or how appalling it really is. The simple fact is that the way BA rosters are now engineered, your roster is likely to be pretty awful wherever you start. Yes, seniority may increase marginally quicker on short haul than it would on long haul, but if you're still spending over double the time in uniform, does that seniority really equate to a better lifestyle?

I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.

[VinRouge]

I think the answer is that over 5 years, seniority will increase markedly faster on short haul. That means more weekends off, more credit efficient trips and less days at work, less reserve. Sounds like a lifestyle improvement to me.
or, enjoy longhaul with its benefits for 5-10, then take SH command with seniority, or go SH LGW command with a lot of relative seniority on fleet and have the same improved lifestyle and salary?

[I'm Off!]

Permanent LHS longhaul. Why anyone would want to move junior after 20 years enjoying decent roster control, I don’t know. Money isn’t everything and BA FO pay is still pretty amazing


No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to buy a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.

[red9]

No, it's not. 34PP Pay in the first few years is not 'amazing', it is poor by comparison (LH, Air France, KLM) and not really enough to by a house in the South East to house your family, large enough that you don't need to move again 2 years later, paying another load of stamp duty and moving expenses. In the past many gave up Commands or potential Commands to come to BA (I did), but no more I think. Huge salary cut to join BA, and you'll never make anything close to the difference back. JSS, costs flat, Management attitude and culture driving constant savings despite making nearly £2bn in profit, low pay, 900 hours etc. I'm afraid the Ts and Cs are not market leading for Junior pilots, they are not even competitive. Compare LHS on SH at 2, 3, 4, 5 years seniority, compared to a Command at eJ, Ryanair, Jet2 etc? 900 hours, no fixed roster, bottom of the pile on JSS and doing all this for just over £70k? Compared to £110k, 115k or 106k basic? DECs? Don't think many would apply for those Ts and Cs.

The job is still ok, the people I work with are really nice, the cockpit gradient very shallow due to experience, and the lifestyle definitely suits some. Definitely some good points, and things get better slowly over time, unless more attacks on Ts and Cs by management. Don't expect a land of milk and honey though, and do your due diligence.

Lots of senior people commenting about how BA is still great - and for them I'm sure it is, and they are being honest. For new joiners, not so much, it has changed markedly in the last 20 years, and hugely in the last 5 years. Caveat emptor.

BA FO Pay is only amazing if you were at university two years ago......
I think the rest of " I'm Offs" post is spot on

[Tay Cough]

I’m certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

“should I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)”

what would you recommend?

Depends where you’re coming from and what your aspirations are, unless you’re about to lose your job. If you’re escaping from the desert, it depends how quickly you want to escape.

If you’re coming from one of the bottom-feeders, same answer.

If you’re coming from Ryanair or Easy (or equivalent) LHS, I wouldn’t bother coming at all unless you really want Longhaul.

If you’re coming from Ryanair or Easy (or equivalent) RHS, only come for longhaul or stay where you are and go LHS.

If you’re coming from VS or longhaul charter RHS, see whether your time to a longhaul command is any better (and you’d better like shorthaul in the meantime).

If you’re coming from VS or longhaul charter LHS, you’re barking.

[VinRouge]

BA FO Pay is only amazing if you were at university two years ago......
I think the rest of " I'm Offs" post is spot on

or a 10 year wide body captain that even with pp35 will see their gross income with allowances increase by 20k.

And it’s pointless comparing with KLM and lufty, the brexiteers have seen to that.

[FACoff]

I’m certain there is a lot of truth in that but nevertheless if somebody asks you:

“should I join BA today because I have been offered a Short Haul a slot, or wait until a Long Haul Offer comes, (delay undetermined)”

what would you recommend?

I think at the moment I'd struggle to recommend BA as a company to work for at all, short haul or long haul. I agree with everything above - morale at rock bottom, scumbag management who couldn't care less, pay cuts and productivity increases all round while they all treat themselves to whopping bonuses. Insult to injury - a pay deal which offers a pay CUT, funded by further increases in productivity. For added hilarity, prior acknowledgement from Klaus that morale was already flagging. It'd be funny if they weren't serious.

Tay Cough has kindly answered your question though and I wouldn't change a word. The only (to emphasise again, ONLY) reason to join BA now is the fact it is a stable and secure long haul airline, arguably the only one in the UK. What scares me here is the speed and extent to which things have deteriorated, aided no doubt by a union which has lived in BA's pocket and which is crumbling and losing support by the day.

Unfortunately I've seen this decline before in a previous airline. Management desperate to shaft us, threshold eventually reached, and a majority strike vote the result. Sadly that unity doesn't exist at BA - we're all doing different jobs (PP24/34, SH/LH, junior/senior, LGW/LHR). It'll get a lot worse before people start to push back here.

[gtseraf]

years ago, I lamented the fact that people were taking awful contracts just to get into a shiny jet, the result, I thought, would be the reduction of legacy terms. Is this possibly proof of this?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Sadly that unity doesn't exist at BA - we're all doing different jobs (PP24/34, SH/LH, junior/senior, LGW/LHR). It'll get a lot worse before people start to push back here.

Completely agree. Which is why it is bittersweet seeing the faux militancy from some BA pilots who are on very good contracts with senior LH positions and pensions over 50% of their junior counterparts could only dream of shout loudly for strike action. Ask a senior chap/ess about the conditions for those at the bottom of the pile....."no idea, but I did my time down there” is often the response. And it’s that apathy and myopia which has made our T&Cs so hard to defend from the present management culture.

Its very easy to blame Balpa - about as easy as not having any interest in anything that doesn’t affect you, like BARP, like PP34, like the demise of BA SH as a sustainable career choice.

We won’t go on strike because we have no unity left. I believe in the past we had some. We must have, as I joined at the beginning of the current decade and was impressed at what my predecessors had preserved for my generation of new joiners. I can’t say I’d join today and think the same.

All IMHO, and I’m sure some senior folk will be along to deride such a view of the BA pilot workforce, but I’m afraid many of my colleagues need to wake up and glance beyond the end of their nose. Things can and will get a lot worse if we don’t find some way of pulling together in the same direction - I really hope we are finally at that point.

[Tay Cough]

A fair few of the senior people you’re referring to have children who are new entrants and they’re well aware of the differences between the contracts.

While there may be some vociferous senior people regarding future industrial action, if the junior don’t join in, it’s not going to get any better for them is it?

[NLP]

We won’t go on strike because we have no unity left. I believe in the past we had some. We must have, as I joined at the beginning of the current decade and was impressed at what my predecessors had preserved for my generation of new joiners. I can’t say I’d join today and think the same.


I would disagree. Most people will go on strike. Most of us are just waiting for the signal from BALPA which could come pretty soon.

[flyingaa]

Hi all,

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and didn’t work too hard!

I did my interview / group ex stage mid November, received the “please book your sim assessment” email shortly after but still yet to have any dates populated on the careers website. Don't suppose anyone knows if they will be releasing dates soon or have they forgotten about me? 🙈

Many thanks!

Hi craypilot,

Any chance you could give me some info on what stage 2 looks like or how I could prepare for it? I am supposed to attend very soon.

[Greyhame]

Hi!
I have my stage 1 and 2 assessment the 27th of FEB. I was hoping maybe someone can help me out by telling me some more about the assessments or push me in the right diretion to find more information.
So far i have seen that i need to brush up my math skills and that the group assessment can be anything out of a 100 different scenario's. So perhaps someone could tell me something more about the interview? like what was their focus on? what kind of questions can i expect? or pretty much anyting you like to share.
Would be very much appreciated! please feel free to pm me.
Cheers,

Greyhames

[Nauti]

In my not particularly recent (roughly 5 years ago) experience, the information here (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/147292-british-airways-dep-selection-lowdown-part-1-a.html) is accurate. Although, as I understand it, they've reduced the amount of aptitude/PILAPT testing.

[airspeed75]

Does anyone know how long it takes for them to reply after the Stage 1/2 stage? I did this recently and haven't heard anything... i heard rumour some time ago that a selection team meet each Friday?

[airspeed75]

Has anyone heard back from yesterdays stage 2 assessment?

I did a stage 2 a few weeks ago and am still in the dark :bored:

Does anyone know if the rejection is an email or a lettter?

[LeMoul]

Has anyone heard back from yesterdays stage 2 assessment?

hello, not yet for me.

[rossbaku]

I have accepted an offer on to SH, moving from my current employer means that with flying pay and allowances, I'll more than double my salary overnight.

As I'll be bottom of the seniority pile, I am under no illusions that I will take what is given to me and ask no questions. Surely this is the attitude that all new joiners to any job, in any industry should take? Keep your head down and get settled in.

I'll also be commuting which many have said to me will be difficult/frustrating/impossible. Again, I'm aware of the implications of this however the benefits/drawbacks of commuting versus the move and facing the M4/M25 I believe are offset (some may beg to differ here). There are a number of people who commute on SH who I have spoken to and they seem happy with the lifestyle they have.

Would anyone care to shoot me down on the above?

[Riskybis]

I have accepted an offer on to SH, moving from my current employer means that with flying pay and allowances, I'll more than double my salary overnight.

As I'll be bottom of the seniority pile, I am under no illusions that I will take what is given to me and ask no questions. Surely this is the attitude that all new joiners to any job, in any industry should take? Keep your head down and get settled in.

I'll also be commuting which many have said to me will be difficult/frustrating/impossible. Again, I'm aware of the implications of this however the benefits/drawbacks of commuting versus the move and facing the M4/M25 I believe are offset (some may beg to differ here). There are a number of people who commute on SH who I have spoken to and they seem happy with the lifestyle they have.

Would anyone care to shoot me down on the above?

may I ask your previous employer?

[rossbaku]

may I ask your previous employer?


Not until I've left, although I will say that I don't have to commute for my current job. :oh:

[hunterboy]

I think you’ll enjoy the first 12 months no matter what. After that will depend on a positive attitude until you get through your freeze period .

[jetstreamrider]

Has anyone been fortunate enough to have been offered both long and short haul when called? For example 320 LGW or 777. Both would have advantages in terms of career and lifestyle so would be a toss up between the two. Been on longhaul in current job which I enjoy however have a young family and the fatigue can get pretty bad. At BA It’s a discussion regarding 20 years to command on longhaul, being away a lot over most wknds compared to shorthaul out of LGW which as I understand it is not as hectic as LHR and offers more potential time at home whilst career wise getting really competent on the aircraft and a possible early command. Thoughts?!

[wiggy]

Has anyone been fortunate enough to have been offered both long and short haul when called? For example 320 LGW or 777

Not sure if that happens, be interesting to know.

Anyhow while we wait for an answer - I assume you realise that by accepting the 777 position you are not locking yourself out of shorthaul and/or LGW forever?

As it stands at the moment you could join on Longhaul, learn about the reality of the “BA way” from the inside, and then at the end of you engagement freeze if you still really desire a LGW 320 position you could bid to move, probably direct into the Left seat by way of a command conversion.

[jetstreamrider]

Good point Wiggy, thanks.

[Doppio]

My Recommendation? Don't go to BA period; LH or SH they are both equally crappy compared to just about any other semi reputable airline out there. BA at this point is nothing more than a Legacy Low Cost Airline with worse TC's than the actual Low Cost Airlines...

[clvf88]

My Recommendation? Don't go to BA period; LH or SH they are both equally crappy compared to just about any other semi reputable airline out there. BA at this point is nothing more than a Legacy Low Cost Airline with worse TC's than the actual Low Cost Airlines...
Which are these low cost airlines with better Ts&Cs exactly? I see some merit to the EZY arguement but I can't think of a single other one with comparable terms. Have you ever worked for a LOCO - the headline figures re money tend to be misleading. I'm not saying things couldnt be better at BA but I think its unfair to put off prospective joiners with false information.

[I'm Off!]

Jet2? Time to Command quick with the right experience, basic of £106k as opposed to the £75k at BA as a year 2 or 3 Captain. Jet2 annual around 600-700 hours, BA 850+

BA have fallen behind I'm afraid, and I see recruitment being difficult for them without some changes...

[Hernando]

even Ryanair, dare i say it.

20k command upgrade bonus.

125k for 800 hours.

Plus many downsides too

[Doppio]

No LoCo (or any other airline for that matter) has 21 days of consecutive SBY periods several times a year, instead they do offer a fixed roster pattern.
Pensions are the same pretty much all over ever since BARP became the norm, but yet LoCo's offer so much more money from day 1 that BA pilots on a 34(!) year payscale will NEVER catch up on career earnings.
So I guess the only thing BA does have in it's favour is Staff Travel; if you still have the energy left to want to take advantage of that after doing 90+ hour months...

[GE115b]

Ryanair have been public enemy number 1 on this forum for a decade or more. Many view them as the instigators of the rot in the industry.

It's amazing that in 2019 one has to consider Ryanair as an alternative to a career at BA; that's the real choice those of us outside BA are faced with!

The optimists will say things are finally improving at Ryanair, the pessimists will say that BA dropped the ball. I'm not sure who is right, but it is what it is as they say.

[Doppio]

Which are these low cost airlines with better Ts&Cs exactly? I see some merit to the EZY arguement but I can't think of a single other one with comparable terms. Have you ever worked for a LOCO - the headline figures re money tend to be misleading. I'm not saying things couldnt be better at BA but I think its unfair to put off prospective joiners with false information.

In answer to your first question; All of them in terms of salary, schedule and total hours flown.

In answer to your second; I've left BA for Ryanair, literally doubling my salary and getting my health and family life back in the process.

[Doppio]

Ryanair have been public enemy number 1 on this forum for a decade or more. Many view them as the instigators of the rot in the industry,

It's amazing that in 2019 one has to consider Ryanair as an alternative to a career at BA; that's the real choice those of outside BA are faced with!

The optimists will say things are finally improving at Ryanair, the pessimists will say that BA dropped the ball. I'm not sure who is right, but it is what it is as they say.

The rot in the industry was not instigated by any one Company but by the bonus driven Management of all Airlines. And if it hadn't been for the active cooperation of Unions in combination with the silent approval of most senior pilots (who by the way are still showing up to their SIM checks in Aston Martin's) none of this would have come to pass.
BA didn't drop the ball; they ran with it after our senior colleagues did...
The only reason Ryanair is now a better deal than BA is because of concerted strike action by the guys that were here before I came along.

[Nauti]

I have accepted an offer on to SH, moving from my current employer means that with flying pay and allowances, I'll more than double my salary overnight.

As I'll be bottom of the seniority pile, I am under no illusions that I will take what is given to me and ask no questions. Surely this is the attitude that all new joiners to any job, in any industry should take? Keep your head down and get settled in.

I'll also be commuting which many have said to me will be difficult/frustrating/impossible. Again, I'm aware of the implications of this however the benefits/drawbacks of commuting versus the move and facing the M4/M25 I believe are offset (some may beg to differ here). There are a number of people who commute on SH who I have spoken to and they seem happy with the lifestyle they have.

Would anyone care to shoot me down on the above?

Ignore the negativity on here. You've done tremendously well - congratulations.

And no, I don't work for BA.

[JulietSierra6]

For any potential joiners, remember there are thousands of BA pilots that do not post on this forum. That’s not to say they are all 100% happy but despite the fall in T’s & C’s of recent years many still find it to be one of the best jobs in the country. It’s all circumstance dependant. We’ve a lot to fight to maintain and try to get back in some cases, but people above making out that Ryanair of all places is now the better option is (for the vast majority) frankly nonsense.

I’ve only been in a few years and it’s not perfect, but generally I’m happy, I have taken an early command, live close to my home base (Sussex flying club), fly about 650-700 hours a year and spend a lot of time with my young family. I have a huge variety of options available to me should my circumstances change.

Come in with your eyes open and remember you’re joining a seniority airline towards the later end of a recruitment bulge, but don’t base your decision entirely on the unbalanced views above.

[wiggy]

I can perfectly understand some people aren't happy but from an objective POV I'm struggling with the previous Aston Martin comment TBH...

I know there are one or two, one defo belongs to a very senior ex-manager - not a common or garden senior pilot, but OTOH there are some pretty mundane cars doing the rounds, also one trainer rocks up on a scooter from the vicinity of T4 and I and lots of other arrive on foot or by bus....my car stays at home and it's a Skoda...

You'd certainly have to be pretty brave to routinely leave an Aston in the Crew Car Park whilst away on a trip....

[VJW]

but people above making out that Ryanair of all places is now the better option is (for the vast majority) frankly nonsense.

You're probably right- but the fact it’s going to take you in the region of another 13 more years to get to what an EZY/RYR Captain makes the moment they upgrade (or join as a DEC) confirms a lot of what was said above. For me that shouldn’t be the case...

[JulietSierra6]

The discussion on pay has been had time and time again and if you’re taking command in the first 3 4 or even 5 years agreed it’s not good enough, especially compared with the likes of EZY/RYR, who management seem so keen to compare us in other ways to.

However...taking early command is a conscious decision, made with all of the facts. With flight and duty pay included it is about 100k. That will continue upwards on a (yes long) 34 point pay scale, combined with a considerable pension pot projected from that early command I’d say you might be doing something wrong if you can’t plan to retire by 60.

[VJW]

The discussion on pay has been had time and time again and if you’re taking command in the first 3 4 or even 5 years agreed it’s not good enough
Eveything on this thread has been talked about time and time and time again. Have to say though you’re sugar coating it to the exteme if you think or are trying to suggest the package is beginning to break even after 5 years. It’s 14 years before a BA Captain earns what an Ezy one does. I’ve done the numbers having turned down BA787 last year (for more reasons than just money of course. For me at 35 hrs of age then and with kids who weren’t born when I passed the numbers and lifestyle no longer worked).

Sugar coat what you want but it’s not only people who took ‘early’ commands that are paid less. Have a look at a 14 year BA 320 captain and he’ll be on less than what EZY paid me on the day I started ...

[JulietSierra6]

I’m not sugar coating anything. I feel I’ve been fairly balanced. If the finances don’t add up, as you’ve done, simple, don’t join. For many it’s about a lot more than £, which in many respects BA does still offer. I joined when I was in my mid twenties and that’ll of course have a bearing on how you view things.

Going to bow out there as we’ve both agreed it’s just re hashing old ground. Wish you the best at EZY.

AIMINGHIGH, we know each other personally so happy to chat about things any time. If anyone else is interested in facts of BA SH, warts and all, from a LGW perspective, PM me.

[Black Pudding]

For many it’s about a lot more than £, which in many respects BA does still offer.

Can anyone elaborate what BA offers beside the salary on offer.

[VinRouge]

Can anyone elaborate what BA offers beside the salary on offer.
Some of the best staff travel in the industry and a decent down route lifestyle, particularly long haul. And getting treated, relatively speaking, like a professional/grown up.

[RexBanner]

getting treated, relatively speaking, like a professional/grown up.

Hugely dependent on which captain you fly with, short haul that’s very hit and miss.

[Pickled]

To sum up many of the posts above:

BA is a very very long term bet.

If you are under about 35 years old then BA still has a lot to offer.

If you are over about 35 then think long and hard about your motivation to join BA and whether you really will be content to be a long haul FO for the rest of your career. 18-20 years is historically a reasonable estimate of the time to a long haul command, but anyone joining now is in behind a huge recruitment drive. A junior long haul command in your late 50s / early 60s is a daunting prospect, especially given the seniority gradient which has got considerably worse under JSS. If you want a short haul command then you are likely to have a more rewarding career at Easy or elsewhere.

[GE115b]

Some of the best staff travel in the industry and a decent down route lifestyle, particularly long haul. And getting treated, relatively speaking, like a professional/grown up.

Since the Staff Travel is one of the positives, can you elaborate on the basics of how it works at BA? What are you and your family entitled to? Do you get any Business or First tickets?

Many thanks.

[Large Dave]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest as it serves to sum up the situation in the UK presently in the airlines which generate the biggest career earnings. It seems to me these are limited to BA, VS, and the low-cost A320/737 operations which have quick commands or DEC.

I think a factor not discussed here is pension contributions.

The bigger your pension pot the sooner you can retire, or more desirably for most, accept the smaller income of going part-time.

The value of pension contributions markedly decreases with one’s age. Firstly, because contributions made later in life will be invested for less time before retirement, but also because the closer to retirement, the less risky investments one can afford to make.

For illustration (not reliable figures, not pension advice, do your own research)- consider £1000 invested at age 35 vs at age 50, with retirement planned at 60.

£1,000 over 25 years mainly in equities then into bonds/cash towards the end, let’s say returns 4% above inflation on average. So you hit 60 and that £1,000 is worth £2,666.

Your £1,000 at 50 is going to be straight into bonds/cash, so let’s say that returns 2% above inflation. It’s worth £1,219 when you reach 60.

The figures are speculative and generalised but the point is money saved earlier in life is far more valuable.

With these savings, the pilot who earns more earlier can afford to retire or go part-time sooner.

A question to consider is would you prefer to spend the end of your career at a lo-co dropped down to 50% having banked the cash already, or be on a 900/750hr BA/VS long haul roster for your whole time, with both having the same retirement outcome.

[hunterboy]

All good discussion points. After all, we come to work to earn money at the end of the day. I only wish BA management realised this.

[Busdriver01]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest as it serves to sum up the situation in the UK presently in the airlines which generate the biggest career earnings. It seems to me these are limited to BA, VS, and the low-cost A320/737 operations which have quick commands or DEC.

I think a factor not discussed here is pension contributions.

The bigger your pension pot the sooner you can retire, or more desirably for most, accept the smaller income of going part-time.

The value of pension contributions markedly decreases with one’s age. Firstly, because contributions made later in life will be invested for less time before retirement, but also because the closer to retirement, the less risky investments one can afford to make.

For illustration (not reliable figures, not pension advice, do your own research)- consider £1000 invested at age 35 vs at age 50, with retirement planned at 60.

£1,000 over 25 years mainly in equities then into bonds/cash towards the end, let’s say returns 4% above inflation on average. So you hit 60 and that £1,000 is worth £2,666.

Your £1,000 at 50 is going to be straight into bonds/cash, so let’s say that returns 2% above inflation. It’s worth £1,219 when you reach 60.

The figures are speculative and generalised but the point is money saved earlier in life is far more valuable.

With these savings, the pilot who earns more earlier can afford to retire or go part-time sooner.

A question to consider is would you prefer to spend the end of your career at a lo-co dropped down to 50% having banked the cash already, or be on a 900/750hr BA/VS long haul roster for your whole time, with both having the same retirement outcome.

Completely agree, though I would add that the lower company contributions at the LoCo (50 % less in some cases) results in a lower company contribution even on a command salary, compared to a year 1 FO at BA.

(7% of 108k = 7560, 15.1% of 58k = 8758)

Obviously you can top up the pension contributions yourself but perhaps slightly misleading to suggest that the pension will be bigger at some LoCos vs BA.

Cheers

EDIT: counter to my own argument to keep things equal... obviously there’s the mortgage to pay off too, which would clearly be cleared faster earning more at an earlier point in the career. Do the savings made here equate to the extra pension / higher end salary? Probably have to hire an accountant for that!

[OscarFox]

Hello everyone,

I've just booked the first day assessment and after a read through the previous comments does anyone have any insight into the SHL verbal reasoning/Maths test or a good place to practice?

PMs are gratefully appreciated any any tips you care to share.

Thanks in advance.

[MikeAlpha320]

Are you going to be full time at pp20+ when the money finally gets good? I certainly cant imagine after 20 years I'll even be medically able to do it. Last summer was the hardest Ive ever been worked and worst I've ever felt. Cant see it getting any easier.

[rossbaku]

Out of curiosity, can anyone give figures for how much they spend on commuting per month? Both SH and LH, just as an idea. I've done my sums and want to see just how close or far off the mark I am.

Cheers,

RossBaku

[eckhard]

LH from Paris to London. £600-£800 per month.

[hunterboy]

Wow...that’s double what I pay from Southern Europe to LHR about 3-4 times a month. Return hotlines can be a good deal. Not as good as EZ concessions sadly.

[wiggy]

If you are just looking at the airfares then hunterboy’s figures sound reasonable...

OTOH if you start factoring in transport and perhaps parking costs at the “home” end, plus, perhaps (being mindful of BAs views on “commuting” ) adding in some hotel/B&B costs at the LHR end into the mix I can how you could start getting up towards the sort numbers eckard has come with.

[eckhard]

Sorry; should have been more clear. As wiggy says I have included accommodation as well as transportation. Hotlines are generally 90EUR return but sometimes more. Rail return to CDG about 36EUR. Accommodation between 30 and 80 depending on how posh I want to be. Say 50 average. So each return commute is about 180EUR. Multiply by 3, 4 or 5 gives 540, 720 or 900EUR. I try to create back-to-back trips if I can.

[RexBanner]

My Short Haul commute which involved flight to Gatwick and National Express Coach to Heathrow (including hotels at LHR) used to average out at circa £600pcm. Surprises me greatly that a long haul commute could be in excess of that figure or even close to it given the greater requirement for nights on the Bath Road prior to an early duty on SH plus daytrips in a block.

[Lazydogg]

For any potential joiners, remember there are thousands of BA pilots that do not post on this forum. That’s not to say they are all 100% happy but despite the fall in T’s & C’s of recent years many still find it to be one of the best jobs in the country. It’s all circumstance dependant. We’ve a lot to fight to maintain and try to get back in some cases, but people above making out that Ryanair of all places is now the better option is (for the vast majority) frankly nonsense.

I’ve only been in a few years and it’s not perfect, but generally I’m happy, I have taken an early command, live close to my home base (Sussex flying club), fly about 650-700 hours a year and spend a lot of time with my young family. I have a huge variety of options available to me should my circumstances change.

Come in with your eyes open and remember you’re joining a seniority airline towards the later end of a recruitment bulge, but don’t base your decision entirely on the unbalanced views above.


How are the “above” posts unbalanced ? The poster has worked for both BA and Ryanair. I suspect you haven’t but I could be wrong.

[JulietSierra6]

How are the “above” posts unbalanced ? The poster has worked for both BA and Ryanair. I suspect you haven’t but I could be wrong.

You are wrong :ok:

[wiggy]

My Short Haul commute which involved flight to Gatwick and National Express Coach to Heathrow (including hotels at LHR) used to average out at circa £600pcm. Surprises me greatly that a long haul commute could be in excess of that figure or even close to it..


I’ll second eckhard (again)

..I’m at the end of a European commute and by the time I’ve paid for the flights (over a year you are looking at at least £100 return,) factored in a £400’ish plus annual car park pass at the home end (no free car parking at the airport for us) and two/three/four nights a month accommodation in a B&B or one of the Purple Palaces @£35 - £50+ per night I reckon £600 p.c.m. is easily achievable on many months, even for a Long Hauler...

(I’ve ignored getting to the starting airport ‘cos you’ll be paying that regardless of whether that is LHR or somewhere more exotic..:bored:)

[RexBanner]

Fair enough Wiggy in my crown dependency we benefit from free parking at the home end, although the airport are keen to close this loophole (out of pure spite and vindictiveness as none of us will be using the long stay car park instead if they force us out) and a return ticket to Gatwick mixed between easyJet staff travel and BA staff travel usually averages £50, skewed towards the easyJet side of things as that’s what I usually use. I had absolutely horrific months in my first year as a Heathrow Short hauler where I had pre assignments and daytrips that I couldn’t get rid of where the cost was nudging up towards £1000! Something for any potential short hauler commuters to bear in mind. The latest inexplicable JSS twist where 2/3 day trips have been inhibited will not help commuters either.

[wiggy]

...The latest inexplicable JSS twist where 2/3 day trips have been inhibited will not help commuters either.

Ah yes, I read about that and was suitably confused ..(easily done I know)...the ”world leading rostering system” strikes again....

[GS-Alpha]

JSS inhibitors appear to be pure trial and error at the moment, but it does seem as though they are aiming for, “You can create your own roster which is tailored to your particular needs, just as long as it looks just like this one!”

[Busdriver01]

Ah yes, I read about that and was suitably confused ..(easily done I know)...the ”world leading rostering system” strikes again....

Is there any reference material for potential new joiners to read about JSS? I feel to join with eyes wide open requires a complete understanding of what the rosters will look like / are capable of looking like since that’s such a huge part of the lifestyle aspect. PM me if you would rather not put anything in the public...

[rossbaku]

Thanks for the replies. I’ve budgeted for £1000 a month commuting from elsewhere in the UK. A car park pass at my ‘home’ airport is £53/month and as people have mentioned, hotels are on average £50 a night. I don’t know Hotline prices but standby tickets are around £80-90 return. As SH I’m assuming I’ll be down there 5-6 times a month. Does that sound realistic to those in the know?

[wiggy]

Is there any reference material for potential new joiners to read about JSS? I feel to join with eyes wide open requires a complete understanding of what the rosters will look like / are capable of looking like since that’s such a huge part of the lifestyle aspect. PM me if you would rather not put anything in the public...




One of the major major gripes ATM is there is simply isn't acomprehensive manual/reference material for anybody, be they new joiner or established employee. There was a vaguely useful very small iBook issued a while back but things have moved on and (as witnesses by the earlier comments) the rules keep changing...and even with a manual in front of you working with JSS is a bit like programming in a new langauge (coding in modern speak) I suspect you wouldn't learn much until you had been able to play with the interface (either the IMHO rather poor BA one, or the IMHO subscription paid better one available for ipads) and seen the result of your bidding commands.

Currently most "education" is being done via in house yammer conversations, posts on the BALPA forum, or drop in sessions at crew report or simply by word of mouth around the network/over a beer or coffee on a trip

[Jock Trapped]

Are folk commuting on ID90’s or hotline tickets? Is there much difference in price and thinking within UK would availability of a seat be an issue if only on a standby ticket? Thanks

[wiggy]

Are folk commuting on ID90’s or hotline tickets? Is there much difference in price and thinking within UK would availability of a seat be an issue if only on a standby ticket? Thanks

Both...Hotlines can be cheaper than standby's... until you hit peak season (e.g. they ramp up massively around easter on "my" route

For ID90s seats can be problem, again depending depending on route, day of the week, holidays etc. Jumpseats may be available but there are never any guarantees ...

[eckhard]

ID90 v Hotline pros and cons:

ID90 fully flexible and cancellable.
Hotline possible to change after midnight UK time on the day of travel. Such change can be free but may also incur a fee.
Hotline cancellation only refunds the APD.

Sometimes Hotlines are cheaper than ID90s. Even if the particular flight that you want is more expensive, you can book the cheapest flight and then change it on the day to a better time, normally for free.

Hotline tickets give you full commercial passenger rights. Your seat is confirmed and you can normally choose a seat for free in advance. You can check in 24 hours before departure. You also gain avios points and Club tier points (not many on LHR-CDG!). You can clear through departures and security as soon as you like.
ID90s are issued on a “standby” basis; i.e. if space is available. No remote check-in. You must physically check in at LHR by STD-45 at the latest and then it’s a lottery whether or not you’ll be allocated a seat or whether you’ll remain on standby. Sometimes you have to plead with staff to get an “airside indicator” so that you can get to the departure gate. LHR departures security-gate cut-off is STD-35 which can be a bit stressful. Contact with the operating crew is useful as they can authorise a jump-seat which gets you over these hurdles.

In summary, I try to use Hotlines as often as possible as the experience is altogether more pleasant. The only time I would use ID90s is if I’m unsure of my plans and chances of changes/cancellations are high. Also, sometimes there just aren’t any cheap deals on Hotline, normally because I’ve left it too late.

[TheAirMission]

In terms of the latest recruitment page on the BA website, do find it a little funny that the final bullet point highlighting the benefits of joining British Airways is:

At our Waterside Head Office, you’ll have access to: a cashpoint, Waitrose, HighLife Shop, company gym, dental care, Waterside Hair and Beauty.

T&Cs must really have gone downhill if access to a cashpoint and Waitrose is part of a listed benefit on the website...!

[red9]

In terms of the latest recruitment page on the BA website, do find it a little funny that the final bullet point highlighting the benefits of joining British Airways is:



T&Cs must really have gone downhill if access to a cashpoint and Waitrose is part of a listed benefit on the website...!
And the only time you will ever see Waterworld is the " tea and no biscuit" career ending chat with the DFO when you have made your mistake

[red9]

Thanks for the replies. I’ve budgeted for £1000 a month commuting from elsewhere in the UK. A car park pass at my ‘home’ airport is £53/month and as people have mentioned, hotels are on average £50 a night. I don’t know Hotline prices but standby tickets are around £80-90 return. As SH I’m assuming I’ll be down there 5-6 times a month. Does that sound realistic to those in the know?

You might struggle with £50 per night around LHR - taxi ? Buses ? ( free shuttle buses at limited times of day) you have to eat....... I would budget for £70

[wiggy]

There is at least one "crew friendly" proper hotel that usually has a crew rate £51 (and can be cheaper if you pick the right day and look at their public rates...).

If the BA shuttle buses aren't running then remember (?) that the TfL red buses are free around the perimeter, as far as and including Hatton Cross/Harlington Corner.

But yes, food isn't cheap (then again there's M&S in T5), so £70 sounds reasonable .

[eckhard]

Ibis can be as low as £39

[763 jock]

I've got an invite. Has anyone got an idea how long it takes to get a LHS A320? Assuming one passes all the requisite LPC/OPC, suitability criteria etc and has sufficient hours already.

Thanks.

[RexBanner]

Ibis can be as low as £39

rare as hens teeth those rates nowadays (and you’ll only get it in the depths of winter) but technically correct.

[VinRouge]

There is at least one "crew friendly" proper hotel that usually has a crew rate £51 (and can be cheaper if you pick the right day and look at their public rates...).

If the BA shuttle buses aren't running then remember (?) that the TfL red buses are free around the perimeter, as far as and including Hatton Cross/Harlington Corner.

But yes, food isn't cheap (then again there's M&S in T5), so £70 sounds reasonable .


Perfectly adequate HOTAC available within 10 mins of staff car park for mid thirties staff rate, plus a parking charge. Its costing on average 41 a night. Less if not driving. It is sometimes cheaper online, so check first. Bring food with you or use the local tesco on the bath road with ample supplies. If you want to slum it, Pizza or KFC. Eat lots of in flight! ;)

[VinceR]

I've got an invite. Has anyone got an idea how long it takes to get a LHS A320? Assuming one passes all the requisite LPC/OPC, suitability criteria etc and has sufficient hours already.

Thanks.

At the moment, in LGW, it is between 12 and 18 months for LHS. Longer (lot longer) for LHR.

[DDobinpilot]

Hey guys, was looking for some thoughts from guys who have applied and been unsuccessful but kept going and eventually got in. Tempted to apply again this year but not entirely sure what I would do differently. For reference I’m a 30 year old current short haul FO with long haul experience also and have around 3500h tt.

Basically I got to stage 1 first time and last year got through to stage 2. I didn’t feel the group ex went that well, but we worked together okay and the rest of the group thought it went fine. When it came to the interview I’d go as far as to say I left the room thinking it was the best interview I’d ever had, had answers to all their questions etc and was confident, one thing I didn’t really do was push the whole ‘BA is my dream’ etc etc. That said, everyone seemed to leave their interviews feeling it went well. But I really felt I’d done enough to get to the sim.

Anyway, a week or so later got a PFO and somewhat decided after that, that maybe BA just wasn’t the airline for me but now almost 12 months has passed I am tempted once again to have another go.

I suppose what I want to know is, what would the guys who have failed then subsequently passed say the main reason was? Is it luck of the draw as to who is interviewing you? I really struggle to see what it exactly is they are looking for, which is why I am a bit cautious about applying again.

Thoughts appreciated.

[finncapt]

What do we have here?

An approach was flown into a known difficult airfield.

The approach became unstable.

A go around was flown and a diversion was made to another airfield.

A successful landing was carried out, as I understand it, at the diversion airfield.

I think that was what I was paid to do for 30+ years.

Thank goodness I retired before I had to justify my decisions to social media.

Well done to the crew.

[finncapt]

My post seems to be in the wrong thread, probably my finger trouble, I am old!!

Can someone move it to the BA 492 thread please.

Thank you.

[buzzc152]

Apologies if this has been answered before ; what are the requirements at BA for command upgrade ? Obviously seniority based but what about min hours, experience on type etc etc ?

Thanks.

[Stocious]

3000hrs of +25 tonne Jet time, plus 1 year at BA is the one I remember. There are others

[Jock Trapped]

Out of interest, presuming bids are once a year, do you need the prerequisites to bid? In the example above could you bid for a LGW Command at 10 months in and say 2800 hrs on jets on the assumption you’ll be eligible some time in the next year?

[DonTrumpet2020]

Over on the wannabes forum they are saying the charge is now £18 grand for a type rating 😖

Madness if it’s correct. O’Leary is only about €5,000 these days 🙈

[louelle100]

In fairness, there is no mention of a bond... the non bond ryanair option is 30k for the type rating and whilst there both not greatish companys for the lower down people i'd probably pick BA.

[wiggy]

Over on the wannabes forum they are saying the charge is now £18 grand for a type rating ��

Madness if it’s correct.....



The wannabes have read the advert correctly.

[Tay Cough]

Probably because a lot of people are now leaving early on, which never happened in the past. I’m reliably informed of 20 or so heading elsewhere (to the same place in fact - no, not telling on here) in the next couple of months.

Makes you wonder why...?

[Black Pudding]

Probably because a lot of people are now leaving early on, which never happened in the past. I’m reliably informed of 20 or so heading elsewhere (to the same place in fact - no, not telling on here) in the next couple of months.

Makes you wonder why...?


coloursheme of where too

[Jumbo2]

Colour scheme is a combination of White, Blue and Dark Blue.

[Riskybis]

Colour scheme is a combination of White, Blue and Dark Blue.


also Red and White

[ManUtd1999]

I just posted this in the interviews section but thought I'd re-post seeing as it's made me so irrate :rolleyes:

New junior pilot recruitment campaign announced for LGW - 18k fee for the type rating...... Has there been any internal chat/anger about this?

I'm surprised there's anyone left in the recruitment team, I would have thought most would have walked by now to avoid having their own reputation tarnished by this madness. To emphasise, this is an airline who just this week announced a 2.6 billion pound profit. Investing in 100 new pilots type ratings would cost (much) less than 0.1% of those profits, but it would appear that any sense of social responsibility has now been long forgotten.

[Hotel Mode]

Probably because a lot of people are now leaving early on, which never happened in the past. I’m reliably informed of 20 or so heading elsewhere (to the same place in fact - no, not telling on here) in the next couple of months.

Makes you wonder why...?



Having flown with a few of them, they are going to their national carrier who are recruiting DEPs for the first time in living memory. Given many of them live there and have no certainty as non uk nationals or residents that BA can employ them post Brexit I think they are making a good call. They will all be missed though.

I think its reading far too much into it to blame that on BA.

Is it prohibited to say KLM?

[Jumbo2]

I think its reading far too much into it to blame that on BA.


Completely agree, same with the mainly ex-BMI colleagues going to Jet2.

[Tay Cough]

Having flown with a few of them, they are going to their national carrier who are recruiting DEPs for the first time in living memory. Given many of them live there and have no certainty as non uk nationals or residents that BA can employ them post Brexit I think they are making a good call. They will all be missed though.

I think its reading far too much into it to blame that on BA.

Is it prohibited to say KLM?

Not really. Thought I'd leave it to someone else. :}

There are quite a few of their countrymen who are staying though. Just saying....

[NLP]

Not really. Thought I'd leave it to someone else. :}

There are quite a few of their countrymen who are staying though. Just saying....

Most of them because of age and seniority in BA. Everyone younger than 35 with less than 5 years in the airline probably gives it a try. Yes, there are a few exceptions but they are a minority.

KLM offers a far better package.

[AFA]

£18k upfront or an £18k 3yr reducing bond?

The latter is fair enough if ppl are leaving but the former is a new sad low.
My company will unfortunately follow suit I imagine once they realise they can also squeeze some more cash out of new joiners.

[DonTrumpet2020]

£18k up front :yuk:

[The Mixmaster]

What’s the BALPA position on BA new hires paying for type ratings?

[wiggy]

Nothing heard.

My guess is post the Open Skies debacle a few years back BALPA are now fairly cagey about commenting on the company's dealings with prospective employees...

[ManUtd1999]

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a socialist..........

This is not a BA specific problem, but the unwillingness / inability of airline pilots and their unions to take any form of action to protect terms for new joiners is staggering. This "I'm all right jack" attitude eventually harms everyone, yet seemingly nobody in the unions can see it.

If BA are worried about people leaving then make them sign a bond, or even better, focus on making BA such a good place to work nobody wants to leave in the first place. Charging upfront for type ratings is unjustifiable and a few years ago would have been unthinkable at BA.

[GS-Alpha]

As many have been saying for quite some time now, BA is nothing like the airline it was even just a few years ago. Things which would have been unthinkable years ago are absolutely on the table now. The rot has accelerated massively and the unions are pretty much impotent to do anything about it. It’s like a snowball rolling down hill; if you don’t stop it early on it will have gathered so much mass and velocity that it becomes unstoppable. I personally think the point where unions could stop it passed many years ago. The only thing to stop it now will be market forces - people refusing to join or large numbers of people leaving. In fact the mixed fleet cabin crew model requires a fairly high turn over as they don’t want people staying for ages and demanding extra pay for their loyalty. That same unacceptable attrition rate will exist for pilots too, although they’d want them to stay longer, but I bet we are nowhere near it at the moment, therefore IAG will think it’s still acceptable to keep turning the thumb screws. As long as they just take as much as can be stomached at a time, chip chip chip, marginal gains and all that. Change happens faster than it used to; the second a chip is taken, the chisel is already cracking the next bit. Our employer no longer cares about anything but improving efficiencies and therefore operating margins. And we no longer just compare ourselves to others; we chase that improved operating margin no matter how high it already is. If employee attrition versus recruitment starts to effect that operating margin, things will change, otherwise expect more of the same.

[Stocious]

If BA are worried about people leaving then make them sign a bond, or even better, focus on making BA such a good place to work nobody wants to leave in the first place. Charging upfront for type ratings is unjustifiable and a few years ago would have been unthinkable at BA.

They aren't worried about people leaving. We can see who leaves the company every month, and I only need one hand to keep count of them. They've got no shortage of applicants alas, otherwise there might be bigger appetite from bosses to introduce better terms!

[wiggy]

They aren't worried about people leaving. We can see who leaves the company every month, and I only need one hand to keep count of them.


How many fingers per hand have you got:} ...Somebody posted elsewhere earlier today that 7 are going in March, two of whom for definite are off to other oufits, 3 are reason/destination unknown and the other two appear to be leaving at or very near their CRA. I would have said 5-10 years ago even 2 or 3 opting to leave for pastures new would have been unheard off so the climate is changing...but I also agree with you that:

They've got no shortage of applicants alas, otherwise there might be bigger appetite from bosses to introduce better terms!

...Whilst it is possible the experienced DEPs who are established elsewhere might perhaps be having second thoughts I suspect the newly qualified will still be hammering at the door, and even with the 18K needed for a Type rating there will be no shortage...

[MikeAlpha320]

They simply cant get enough DEPs to join BA short haul because of the state it is in. It has nothing to do with 'wanting to make BA accessible to everyone' or whatever they spin it as. They want cheap FO's and it is as simple as that. You are an annoying cost to this company as a pilot. At least other places you knew where you stood. The pretend statements of really valuing our contributions e.t.c made by Klaus and not worth the paper they are written on. Think very carefully about coming here for SH. You can listen to the BA fans if you want but don't be surprised when you get here!

[RexBanner]

Short Haul honestly isn’t that bad. I moan more than most and even I can acknowledge that. If you get a SH offer also remember its a gateway into one of the most secure places in the industry and eventually a long haul slot if that’s what you’re after. It’s no bed of roses but to pretend it’s some never ending nightmare is also far from the truth.

Charging new entrants £18k for a type rating though? For BA that’s disgraceful.

[roll_over]

What has happened to my national airline? It seems as if I want to come back from the sandpit now the only reasonable option is RYR and I don't really know how reasonable that is....

[zero/zero]

Charging new entrants £18k for a type rating though? For BA that’s disgraceful.

I’m embarrassed that BA have stooped this low. Luckily for BA, they’ve divided the workforce so successfully that nobody gives a **** about anyone else, so nobody will do anything for the new joiners

[Stocious]

How many fingers per hand have you got

Luckily, I wasn't counting the retirements! They'd have left anyway.

[hunterboy]

Zero/zero...what do you suggest the existing employees do?

[buzzc152]

I know it’s buried in this thread somewhere but would someone please post payscales for new FO’s and perhaps also an indication of total monthly pay including sector/per diem etc.

Thanks.

[wiggy]

....so nobody will do anything for the new joiners



As has been said, by hunterboy, given the state of UK Legislation what action do you suggest?

The company has put an "offer" out there, new joiners are at liberty to take it or leave it...interfering with that process (e.g. Trainers being told not to train the new entrants) could lead to action being taken under restraint of trade (and that would just be for starters).`
Also I'm pretty sure if, in an ideal world, trainers were actually legally able to refuse to train those new entrants we would soon hearing gripes here about BA senior people trying to block newbies from getting into the industry.

[Joe le Taxi]

Trainers could drastically increase the chop rate, and (perhaps legitimately) claim the financial barriers are decreasing the quality of new recruits. That'll stem the supply and the demand, pretty quick. After all, to get in to Hamble/Oxford was tough, surviving the course was tough..and it was fully funded, (thus not being the preserve of wealthy applicants as it is now).

[wiggy]

​​​​​ zero/zero,

Whether you wish to portray this as “rolling over” or not is down to you but do you accept the Company Council’s response to the New Entrant scheme has to take into account Legal realities....this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?


As for the payround, I take it you are aware of the latest state of play regarding this and that three major Unions representing BA employee groups are coordinating their response...and BTW that there is a ballot going on that in the fullness of time might lead to Industrial Action?

[zero/zero]

People can stop volunteering to be trainers or part of the recruitment teams (or resign from those positions if outside of freeze), stop doing the roadshows, stop volunteering for #BASMART, stop accepting ad-hoc sims etc as some examples. I’m sure there’s enough intelligence within the Company Council to come up with something, but of course nobody wants to.

All too easy to just put our hands up and say “there’s nothing we can do”

[MCDU2]

Same in every company. No shortage of lap dogs willing to do freebies for the company. We have people that come in and work for free doing courses forming part of a go team in the case of a serious event. Have others that sit on technical groups doing loads of invaluable research into various topics facing the operation for the company. Think they might get a rostered day or two here and there but no extra pay and certainly the rostered days will not in anyway reflect the work put in by these pilots. Same people argue till they are blue in the face about pay cuts and rostering. Same people also won't turn off their phone when they aren't due to be contactable. You are only a staff number at the end of the day until you die or retire and will soon be forgotten.

[GS-Alpha]

Zero/zero, BALPA tried doing something about pilots being recruted on inferior terms and conditions with OpenSkies when they thought they had a very legitimate case. They got well and truly burnt by BA and in my opinion there is very little chance they’ll ever do anything to try and block changes to new entrant terms and conditions again. IAG would regard each of those actions you mention as unofficial industrial action, and they’d take legal action against BALPA and the individuals involved, and they’d win. New entrants can improve things by not applying, but at the end of the day, when they apply they accept the terms being offered. If you’re upset about the introduction of an £18k type rating charge, BA isn’t the place for you because I guarantee they’ll knock a heck of lot more than that off your terms and conditions once you are actually employed by them. People here seem to think current BA pilots are sitting fat dumb and happy whilst new entrants are taking all of the cost cutting. They’d be wrong. BA cost cutting is relentless. Willie Walsh described Aer Lingus as the most profitable company within the IAG group recently. It is all about operating margin for him, despite the fact that in this last year, BA produced four times the operating profit of the rest of IAG combined!

[MaverickPrime]

According to PPJN, Aer Lingus pilots seem to have a better deal than BA pilots; yet they are the most profitable in the IAG group?

[wiggy]

Firstly as GS-Alpha has correctly pointed out the BACC got it's backside handed to it on a plate when it last tried to interfere with BA's/IAG's recruiting policy.

Secondly we perhaps need to be aware that a Union Rep calling for people not perform voluntary act X,Y or Z could be construed as calling for a work to rule and that in turn could...scratch that, would..... have BA in court claiming illegal industrial (IA) action faster than I can hit "submit reply", unless BALPA had gone through due process for IA, including a ballot.


And no just to be very clear I don't like it, but you need to look back to the eighties to see why that is the state of affairs.

P.S. Just had the SMS reminder...don't forget the pay Ballot...

[GS-Alpha]

Pilot terms and conditions are not the only thing that determines an airline’s profitability. Sadly though, within BA it is easier to improve margins by attacking terms and conditions than it is to actually address fundamental problems. Also BA has to pay Heathrow’s sky high fees.

[MCDU2]

According to PPJN, Aer Lingus pilots seem to have a better deal than BA pilots; yet they are the most profitable in the IAG group?

You might want to throw the gross numbers for EI into an online tax calculator then look at the cost of living in Dublin and form a different opinion. 52% tax for not a lot does not make up for the guinness I can assure you.

[ManUtd1999]

this is not France, so BALPA cannot call for e.g. a wildcat strike or selective withdrawal of training to stymie the company’s recruiting plans?

No but they could call a ballot and start the process of (perfectly legal) industrial action if they wanted. Doing nothing is a not a result of UK strike law, it's a decision made by pilots and their union representation. Tbh the reality is an 18k type rating is probably not top of the list of grievances, they'll still have cadets queuing round the block. But yet again it's an example of new entrant terms being lowered with seemingly no protest.

I don't work in aviation (unfortunately) but I know that if my company decided to make all new graduates pay upfront for their own training, they'd a) have no applicants and b) cause a riot amongst current staff. Why the same logic doesn't apply in the airlines is beyond me.

[hunterboy]

How do you call a strike for pilots that haven’t joined the company yet? Once they sign on the dotted line and accept the t&c’s, including the 18k fee, how do you justify industrial action for something the NEP has just accepted? If BA charged existing pilots for the type rating I could see legally justifiable motive for I.A. In short, caveat emptor.
‘Incidentally, with the 5 year type freeze, arguably pilots are paying for their type rating indirectly.

[The Mixmaster]

Man Utd - agreed. Surprising how most are so quick to throw hands up and say nothing can be done. If a ballot for industrial action were to be called on this issue along with other outstanding issues it could be quickly sorted. Talk of wildcat strikes or mass sickouts a la France is a hysterical comparison. Work to rule over peak summer period anybody?

Sadly is doesn’t sound like the will is there to resolve this issue and BA wil take the chisel and chip away at something else next. This profession is being hugely let down by the “I’m alright Jack” attitude.

[hunterboy]

ManU, so rioting aside, what else would you and your fellow staff colleagues do to protect the T&C’s of people that haven’t yet signed on the dotted line and therefore don’t have T&C’s to protect?
There seem to be a lot of key board warriors on pprune nowadays. I’d be interested to know the % of them that have put an X on a strike ballot and how many have actually walked.

[Right Engine]

People can …stop volunteering for #BASMART

Ah. Problem here. The Twitter brand ambassadors have spent the last week claiming the modular route now being open is a win - no mention of up front type rating costs.

[wiggy]

Ah. Problem here. The Twitter brand ambassadors have spent the last week claiming the modular route now being open is a win - no mention of up front type rating costs.


Yep, if posters think all the members of the instagram brigade and similar are going to listen to calls to stop volunteering they are naive- they have a lot invested in portraying the whole lifestyle in a positive light.

There is a similar problem with the work to rule idea (plus it is very difficult to remain cohesive since it is easy for a company to pressure individuals) which is why the three Unions involved at BA seem to be headed in a particular direction.

[The Mixmaster]

There are over 4000 pilots in BA? If BALPA balloted on a work to rule you would always have the social media heroes and the like doing their own thing. But you would have a significant majority working to rule. Don’t underestimate the impact that can have on a company’s bottom line.

[wiggy]

There are over 4000 pilots in BA? If BALPA balloted on a work to rule you would always have the social media heroes and the like doing their own thing. But you would have a significant majority working to rule. Don’t underestimate the impact that can have on a company’s bottom line.











TBH over the years the Reps, former lot or this current tranche, have always maintained a work to rule would be ineffective...define “work to rule for” starters..even issuing a call for people not to volunteer has it’s risks....If you have the chance when next in T5 grab a passing rep and ask about this, it is interesting...and TBH amongst other things it gives you a bit of a depressing insight into human nature, (well, some people’s nature).

Now....back to the new qualified pilot scheme...looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..so no doubt many outside BA also see it as a good thing.....which brings into play (again) the point that BALPA campaiging against this scheme would be used by some to demonstrate how out of touch “we” are with those that want to join the industry as pilots.

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.

[The Mixmaster]

TBH over the years the Reps, former lot or this current tranche, have always maintained a work to rule would be ineffective...define “work to rule for” starters..even issuing a call for people not to volunteer has it’s risks....If you have the chance when next in T5 grab a passing rep and ask about this, it is interesting...and TBH amongst other things it gives you a bit of a depressing insight into human nature, (well, some people’s nature).

Now....back to the new qualified pilot scheme...looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..so no doubt many outside BA also see it as a good thing.....which brings into play (again) the point that BALPA campaiging against this scheme would be used by some to demonstrate how out of touch “we” are with those that want to join the industry as pilots.

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.


As I outlined above make it a multi issue campaign. Take your pick. Yes there are individuals who will disregard results of a ballot. Even if just 50% of the body adhered to a work to rule then the leverage created would be significant. The alternative is to do nothing and watch the chisel continue to chip away at t and c.

[frozenpilot]

Looking at what might be coming down the road later this year at BA I’ll certainly go with the Union, but IMHO running a single issue campaign over the new entrant scheme is simply a non starter and is not going to work.[/QUOTE]


What might be be coming later this year Wiggy? Being a junior 320 skipper, I find it hard to believe this gig can actually get any worse??

[wiggy]

What might be be coming later this year Wiggy? Being a junior 320 skipper, I find it hard to believe this gig can actually get any worse??

I was referring to the current pay round and any action that the Union decide might be required....

[frozenpilot]

Ah.... At least us junior trash may get some weekends off... albeit unpaid!

regards

[ManUtd1999]

looking at Yammer rightly or wrongly there are some non-flight Ops employees with relatives wanting to get into BA who see the new scheme as a good thing (somebody in the family can obviously afford the 18k)..

If you have 18k lying around it's an outstanding scheme. You could almost see that price tag as a positive as it will reduce the competition :O

More seriously, I'm not denying that opening up BA to modular cadets is generally a good thing. I just wish they hadn't done it in a way which discriminates based on financial background. BA used to be one of the few airlines who thought talent was more important than the abiity to pay. This and the last version of the cadet scheme would suggest they now think otherwise. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong and the recruitment team will manage to get an improvement in the future, but that seems unlikely.

[Black Pudding]

Won’t be long before you’re having L3 cadets on poor pay even after line checked.

[rossbaku]

What might be be coming later this year Wiggy? Being a junior 320 skipper, I find it hard to believe this gig can actually get any worse??


Is BA your first gig as a commercial pilot? Because I can tell you it can get worse!

[JPJP]

I just wish they hadn't done it in a way which discriminates based on financial background. BA used to be one of the few airlines who thought talent was more important than the abiity to pay. This and the last version of the cadet scheme would suggest they now think otherwise.

Indeed.

B.A. Management should come up with a catchy name for the £18K course. Perhaps ‘Return of the Nigels’ would work ? Or, ‘Revenge of the Nigels’. ‘Klaus’s M.O.’ would only make sense to a small number of people, and it’s not very catchy.

[frozenpilot]

Nope, it’s my fifth... I’ve been through numerous redundancies. However, a junior short haul command at BA is terrible..