BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Harry palmer]

All good info from all of the above but any chance the thread can get back to the Direct Entry Recruitment, Rated non Rated etc? I understand there are big changes ahead for BA as the industry is changing but there are many of us who see even the new BA as a step up from our current operators. I had tried to start a thread just relating to recruitment for those interested but it was closed and merged into this one.

I wish everyone at BA and those hopping to join well.

[jetstreamrider]

Can anyone tell me with a high degree of certainty whether it is a good or bad idea to update one's CV after submitting the application? i.e for hours and subsequent training that has been completed after submitting the application.

Appreciate the info!!

[RedBullGaveMeWings]

Can anyone tell me with a high degree of certainty whether it is a good or bad idea to update one's CV after submitting the application? i.e for hours and subsequent training that has been completed after submitting the application.

Appreciate the info!!

I've always been told by an experienced pilot that updating your CV is a sign of interest in joining them.

[JaxofMarlow]

By the accounts of many, the more hours you have (experience) the less chance you have. :hmm:

[Full Left Rudder]

Sorry. I find that very hard to believe. Do you really think BA would deliberately hire less experienced pilots? New joiners all get paid the same regardless of previous experience.

Sounds like nothing more than a straw poll argument to me. There are plenty of very experienced new joiners, as there are plenty of relatively less experienced new joiners. My opinion is that if you fit the mould you get in. Simple as that. Combined of course with needing a healthy slice of luck!

It's like the age old argument in football. If the junior players are stronger than the more experienced ones, they should get picked based on that, not their lack of reputation. The more experienced players should have to earn their spot regardless of experience.

[Jumbo2]

Is that why it states in the vacancy details training, command, or other longhaul experience would be advantageous...

[CW247]

Do you really think BA would deliberately hire less experienced pilots?

FLR, whether it is deliberately or otherwise, the fact of the matter is that the BA assessments will always contain an innate bias towards those who are closer to their academic years (in terms of number of years since secondary, college, and university level education).

The verbal reasoning tests written by SHL are used by many top blue chips to hire GRADUATES. They measure skills that one has supposedly just learnt by attending Uni. They are a method of measuring skill when one does not possess the experience. In the same way that you cannot expect a rookie to have the kind of knowledge you would expect from experienced staff, you cannot expect someone who is 25 years post his college/uni years to perform well at paper based tests that bear no resemblance to the job or the lessons life has taught them.

Let's not even discuss the silly and pointless 1980s computer games that we have to play.

My opinion is that if you fit the mould you get in.

The "mould", as defined by the assessment process is therefore something which goes against ones maturity (age) and homes in on ones inexperience.

BA, EZY, FR wouldn't dare publish figures on the average age of new pilot hires (not that they have to), as it would expose their not so very blatant ageism by design.

[Full Left Rudder]

I see your point that the maths and verbal reasoning tests may favour uni graduates, but I would still argue that that is a subjective opinion. Are the tests actually designed to target uni graduates, or is it simply that most people who take the tests happen to be uni graduates given that that is the natural point in life to sit such tests? Or do the tests simply attempt to find those with the best numerical and verbal reasoning abilities, with the natural result being that younger people are generally a little sharper in these areas? Thus they get offered more of the jobs? I.e. The people who perform best in the tests get the jobs..... What is wrong with that exactly??

Even so, the contrary could be argued for other parts of the selection procedure, in so much that it is easier for someone with lots of flying experience to come up with good answers to the interview questions, given they have more experience to draw from. Likewise, the simulator is much less of a foreign environment to experienced pilots, meaning less stress and more mental capacity.

[SinBin]

All utter tosh, I joined at 34, others in their fifties all in the last 4 years!

[Megaton]

I was closer to 40 than 30 when I joined as were nearly every one else who joined that day. Furthermore, some of the capacity tests have a direct link to operating aircraft ie the ability to perform multiple tasks simultaneously.

[Hiace]

I am wondering if someone from the inside can write more about future changes to Long Haul...

It has been touched on before in this thread that Back 2 Back trips will prove more difficult to arrange with the implementation of EASA FTL's. Can anyone expand on that aspect please? Why will B2B become more difficult with the arrival of EASA regs?

I'm particularly interested in replies from those currently commuting from abroad....what plans are you making for that lifestyle becoming more difficult in practical terms? Or is it a case of seniority saves the day.

Is it felt that over the longer term people may have to move back to England to be within driving range of LHR?

What other changes should a prospective new joiner consider more deeply before moving from their current position?

Thanks...

[Wirbelsturm]

Hiace,

AFAIK (I'm not a commuter) the EASA FTL's require you to be 'acclimatised' at the point of destination which means spending (I believe, I'm not 100% sure) 2 local nights withing two time zones of your Long Haul base departure airport.

So, if you reside in Europe within +/- 2 time zones of London you're fine for commuting as time at home constitutes acclimatised.

However, a B2B New York etc. or commuting in 24 hours before a trip from the States would not meet the criteria as there would only be 24 hours in the UK between the trips thus making you not acclimatised.

As I say those are only the rules as have been 'discussed' on the flight deck. I'm sure someone may well be able to amend/fill out on the above as necessary.

[Wirbelsturm]

Is there a significant number commuting at BA?

Yes there are.

[4468]

As things currently stand, I believe Wirbelsturm is partly correct. Certainly in as much as crew must report 'acclimatised' for their trip. This alone would certainly cause problems for some of our commuters who have to travel significant distances to LHR. There are of course also tax implications in spending nights in the UK! However some of these same (LH) commuters hold influential positions within BALPA, so I guess watch this space.

As far as Back to Backs are concerned, I believe there is nothing in EASA to explicitly forbid them, however they must be constructed by the company, who must provide 'approved' accommodation between the flights. No such agreement currently exists. Nor can I particularly imagine BA being terribly interested in the subject unless pilots 'buy' such a process?

However as I said, some of our (LH) long distance commuters occupy influential positions within BALPA, so I guess watch this space.

Commuting certainly won't be impossible, but it is likely to get a little more difficult? Nobody yet knows by how much? If this is a deal breaker for you, then you might be better looking elsewhere?

[Flap62]

However as I said, some of our (LH) long distance commuters occupy influential positions within BALPA, so I guess watch this space.

Are you suggesting that something will only happen if it is in the interests of senior BALPA reps? Who on earth could ever believe that could be the case.....

[Hiace]

Many thanks for the replies :)

[Harry palmer]

Have people found the tests sent as examples to represent the actual ones in terms of difficulty? How many do you get on the day and is it a set standard to meet or competing with each other?

[Globemiester]

Maths is 25 questions in 9 minutes. Verbal reasoning is 32 questions in 18 minutes. There is serious time pressure but I think the emphasis is on completing as much as you can CORRECTLY. I think the verbal reasoning is almost impossible to complete in the time period and know of only one person who got to the end. If you are quick with your maths I reckon it is more manageable to finish.
Most people completed about 25/32 in the VR exam. The questions sent out are a good representation. :ok:

[Right Engine]

However as I said, some of our (LH) long distance commuters occupy influential positions within BALPA, so I guess watch this space.
Are you suggesting that something will only happen if it is in the interests of senior BALPA reps? Who on earth could ever believe that could be the case?

You'll be suggesting BALPA Reps don't have to do Reserve or Blind Lines and have unique 'cherry-picking' (TL0) rights of trips under a revised BidLine rule set next! sheesh

[bigdaviet]

Anyone heard anything yet from the assessments conducted recently?

[Smokie]

A colleague of mine starts in January, he did assesments a few weeks ago, if that helps.

[Hiltonharry]

The examples they provide mention practicing, with or without a calculator for the numerical. I take it the actual tests on the day are without a calculator?

[VJW]

Last time the test was without a calculator.

Just a quick one on the verbal test, a test I'm horrible at. Is it still done using SHL booklets? I'm hoping using SHL online tests are a good way of practicing.

I presume its better to answer yes or no rather then unable to tell, if the statement is clearly logically implied or inferred..

[no sponsor]

These guys are quite good for practice tests for the verbal reasoning:
Verbal Reasoning, Free Online Practice Tests (http://www.assessmentday.co.uk/aptitudetests_verbal.htm)

No calculators allowed. You need to be fast. I think I did about 20 or so. I completed all the verbal reasoning tests though!

[Chunky Monkey]

It seems that just about ALL our BALPA reps live in USA or Canada - I couldn't possibly comment on the accuracy of the rumour that they mostly commute for free thanks to amazing "luck" with adjacent BALPA duties...

Also couldn't comment on why, since the Open Skies fiasco, they have given everything BA have asked for without even bothering to check with the membership first - something rotten in the State of Denmark...

[wiggy]

It seems that just about ALL our BALPA reps live in USA or Canada

Really? I think it's 3 or 4 out of around 25 Reps, I don't know them all so I guess there might be one or two others but I very much doubt it's a majority, let alone "ALL". FWIW there are also a few that "commute" from Europe, there's even at least one brave soul who commutes from Manchester ....then again there are a lot of commuters in BA in general .....

since the Open Skies fiasco, they have given everything BA have asked for without even bothering to check with the membership first

Again because you've definitely made that one up.

From memory post Open Skies the entire BA BALPA constituency has been balloted on at least two things: Flying Pay and issues surrounding the BMI merger. I have absolutely no doubt many didn't like the result of either of those - but nevertheless there were ballots....

P.S. In case you are wondering I am not, and never have been a Rep..

[Flying Wild]

Is there any parking at Waterside?

[Hiltonharry]

234

You mentioned some online tests you can find to practice e flight director tests. Can you guys recommend any?

Also was there a personality type questionnaire?

Cheers

[Globemiester]

Latestpilotjobs.com is a decent place to practice flight director stuff. There is no parking at waterside. We parked in short stay at T5 and got the bus (1 stop). It cost about £20 for 6 hours.

[EMB-145LR]

Has anyone who applied via the Non-type rated application heard anything yet?

[Stage5]

Given the recruitment team have extended the window to midnight of the 18th, you may not hear anything for a while yet.

[Deano777]

Someone I know who's non type rated has heard and has an assessment.

[jamestkirk]

In case i get called.

Anyone know where the best place is for help with the verbal/numerical assessments.

[looking for a break]

Hi, has anyone else been online and booked a date yet from the ones being offered initially?

Also if anyone has been to assessment day one recently wouldn't mind sharing their experience?? I've read 234's feedback which is helpful.

Is mental arithmetic still part of the numerical reasoning or just the standard SHL format (data from graphs and tables based). SHL ones allow a calculator is this still the case with BA or I'll need some serious prep work before I book a date...

Thanks

[alpha.charlie]

Would anyone be kind enough to explain the staff travel perks for new entrants?

Also, how much on average can you expect to receive in Elapsed hourly rate per month and at what rate is this taxed (and FPA)?

[bex88]

FPA depends on your fleet 320 fleet is £590 give or take a few quid. Taxed at your nominal tax rate. Duty pay is £3.19 per hour from check in until you clear on return to LHR. This is taxed at 20%. Depending on your work line you would be between about £600 and 1000 a month if trip heavy.

Staff travel: bit hazy here I am afraid but pilots get a management bookable ticket each year for themselves and nominated travel partners. FO's club world and skippers in first. It is still subject to availability and various rules. It all is done on seniority so if your waiting to get home you can get bumped off by senior cabin crew etc. Personally I think it's a pain in the ass and don't risk using it right now. You also get standby tickets unlimited and a number of hotline tickets.

If you join us on SH the last thing you will be interested in is spending more time in an aeroplane. Anyhow I digress.....all is moderately above average and great at the top :rolleyes:

[Harry palmer]

For those who have been through day one how long did you have to wait to hear the result of the aptitude tests?

[Wirbelsturm]

Captains and SFO's get 'F' priority if not travelling with dependents under 12 years. 1 in the first 4 years (after 6 months) and 2 after that.

Onload priority on 'bookable' concessions is quite high, standard ID90's are even onload priority with all other departments with date of joining deciding who gets on first. Bookable does not mean you are guaranteed a seat/flight, you can always be bumped for commercial passengers.

Personally I use ST quite a bit and have found the staff and my colleagues on the aircraft to be most helpful.

[4468]

Captains and SFO's get 'F' priority if not travelling with dependents under 12 years.
Really?

I thought SFOs were 'Club' priority?

[Chief Brody]

Once you trigger the second bunch of 'management tickets' after 4 or 5 years one set are F class but with a reduced onload priority.

Ie you'll be in first if you get on but you stand less chance of getting on.

[Kazak]

Hi,

I am wondering if anyone knows if and when more assessment dates are planned after the 04th December?

I have been invited for assessment, however my current roster will make it very difficult for me to attend on the dates given.

Thanking you in advance.

[oscar2012]

Just wondering if any guys previously in the hold pool who've applied have been contacted yet at all?

[Hiltonharry]

As an aside question. Is there a medical examination prior to employment? I see you have to be able to satisfy the BA medical requirements.

[backburner]

Hi guys, just wondering if anyone else has been asked to send in a cover letter. I cannot see where you would submit it via the recruitment and the email has not come from the normal email address.

I hope this isn't a mistake I have made! :eek:

Good luck to all

[FlyingStone]

The guide said that you should upload CV and cover letter in a single file - Word, PDF, etc.

How long does it usually take to receive any answer from HR?

[Reacher19]

Heard back within a week. Sadly, there appear to only be a limited number of test slots available and all on working days for me!

[Superpilot]

Third time I'm asking :)....

Anyone know how many DEPs BA have hired since August 2014? Even better if someone can share stats on how many have been invited to Stage 1 since the same period. Curious to know.

[Dr Esteban]

Could anyone confirm whether British Airways require ALL logbooks to be shown or only more recent ones?

Many thanks!

[wiggy]

Anyone know how many DEPs BA have hired since August 2014?

I suspect only the BA manager directly involved knows that, he may or not pop here with an answer.

If simply want some indication of order of magnitude the last credible mention of numbers came up another place a few days back: There it was said that currently they are looking for 20'ish DEPs on the 787 and 60+'ish for the 744, and that the January courses were already "contracted", which I assume is recruitment speak for folks who have been informed and have signed on the line i.e. "hired". No mention of Shorthaul numbers but that wasn't the context of the "conversation" I was looking at, someone else might have those numbers.

Probably not exactly what you want but I hope that's of some help.

[VJW]

We were all asked to submit a cover letter with our CV as one PDF document. The fact it looks like you didn't but BA have contacted you asking for one, is a good sign, that while you didn't do it, they haven't rejected you...

[Superpilot]

Thanks wiggy

[jimmyneutral]

Has anyone who attended Day 2 last week heard anything yet? I know it's the weekend but possibly Friday?

[happydays5]

Does anyone know any info about any rumours I've heard that reapplying to BA waiting time might go down from 12 to 6 months? Website seems to indicate that you can reapply after 6 months but 12 months if you've done any of the assessments..
Lots of people I know very keen to be reconsidered having not passed aptitude/interview/sims...

[FlyingStone]

It seems to be true. Received PFO yesterday with the 6 months period mentioned...

[RJ100]

Been told these were issued in error. New letters confirming 12 month wait to be sent out.

[VJW]

Does anyone remember for the Flight director test, does it require the horizontal bar (the pitch bar) to be brought back to the centre using the reverse sense? Ie if the bar goes up, normally you'd pitch up to the FD bar, but in this test does it want you to pitch down?

[looking for a break]

It's the opposite sense to the F/D! When's day one for you VJW?

[Flying Wild]

How long has it been taking people to hear back after day 2? I have a feeling it won't be good news for me, but would be nice to be put out of my misery!

[EMB-145LR]

Anyone else still waiting to hear back? I applied on day one of the non-type rated campaign. No PFO so far. I've been checking the careers site, my email and my junk folder every day! 3,000TT, most on jets, not typed on a Boeing or Airbus though.

[Superpilot]

Guys, sorry to relay the news but I know of bus rated people applying over the last several weeks getting invites for just a week later. What this indicates despite the recruitment drive for the 777 and 747 I don't know...

[VJW]

I'm 737 rated, applied on Nov 5th, invited to test email on Nov 10th..

[SinBin]

From what I'm led to believe, on each stage, if it's a definite 'yes', it takes about 4/5 days, same for a definite 'no', if you're borderline there is a further papersifting process, which can take longer. The guys and girls are, I hear, rather swamped with applications at the moment so I guess this may be taking the process a little longer to sort. Don't lose hope just yet.

[Borg]

Flying Wild; it took a day for them to get back to me with some good news after day 2. Best of luck

[Hiltonharry]

Hi superpilot

I'm not sure where your train of thought is with the info? Just you say sorry to relay the news.

[fruitbat]

The results of Crystal were released today.

It shows 310 new pilot positions for 2015. Included in this are 30 DEP positions on the 787 and 80 on the 747. These LH positions will be in the first half of 2015.

[Superpilot]

I was thinking that some non-bus candidates may be leading themselves into thinking that because BA have opened applications to non-bus rated, they would be in line for an invite pretty soon.

I know it's not that clear cut but this is mostly due to having learned and also having a pprune member from a major Boeing operator tell me that in the region of 20 non-bus rated individuals from his outfit have applied but not had any kind of response.

Yet, I know of bus rated people applying in the last 2-3 weeks who are getting invites just a week later. Bus people who applied after many non-bus people that is.

Hope that makes sense.

[EMB-145LR]

It's common sense that Bus rated candidates would be called ahead of non rated guys, even if they have applied at a later date than the non type rated candidates. However, claiming to relay bad news, when you are not employed by BA and you're purely speculating strikes me as being a little unnecessary.

As a non type rated applicant I am more than aware that I am bottom of the pile when it comes to getting a call. However, PFOs have been coming to some and not others, so I was merely trying to ascertain whether any non rated applicants had been invited to attend day one so far.

Best of luck to everyone still in the process. I'd be delighted to get a call, but there is some very capable competition out there, many much more qualified than I.

[Superpilot]

It's common sense that Bus rated candidates would be called ahead of non rated guys

Despite the news that 50% of recruitment is now for Boeing fleets?

Just saying what I'm seeing/hearing. Take my point of view as you like old bean! Best of luck.

[Iver]

Why so many openings on the Dreamliner and the Whale? I guess I thought eligible people on the Bus or 737-400 might be interested in a change....

[wiggy]

Basically it's down to training capacity.

There are plenty within BA who want to move short haul to long haul but each such a move generates two training courses....one for the guy/ girl doing the move from the bus/737 to the Long haul type, and then another for the new entrant to replace him/ her on the short haul type.

Recruiting externally means just one course (for the new entrant). As a result internal transfers have effectively been capped and there is DEP recruitment for some of the vacancies onto the 787 and the 744.

Of course this policy understandably isn't going down well in some quarters but it is covered by existing agreements with the union and it has happened before.

I think the fact BA is planning on outsourcing some of the training to CTC (including some internal transfers) shows how stretched BA's training system is going to be next year.

[Stage5]

As wiggy said training capacity is the issue. Around 1000 conversion courses were initially planned! All at a time that Sims are being transferred out of brainbank and into TBA, with an extra requirement for trainers etc etc. The number of courses had to be reduced to make it manageable. The only fleet to see a freeze waiver is the 737 as it is being retired in any case. The 320 fleet and others were not so fortunate.
All DEP LH to the first half of the year to make the 320 trg programme manageable with a number of 78s arriving in quick succession in the later half of next year.
FPP courses delayed due to extra training footprint. So if 777/787/744/320 rated, the outlook is good for a potential shorter wait in the 'submitted' category. A bit of an exceptional year it would seem.

[Hiltonharry]

Are there any technical questions in the interview? Type rated

[Pork chop express]

Nope. Mostly competency based give an example of when......:ok:

[Hiltonharry]

Thanks Pork Chop!

[BugSpeed]

Hi All,

Anybody have a sim ride on 5th Jan?

[pilot3103]

Hi there, does anyone know where to park when you attend the day one at Waterside please? Thanks for your help

[Globemiester]

T5 short stay is the best place. Costs roughly £20 for the time you are there...

[pilot3103]

Thank you very much Globemeister, is that how you can get the BA shuttle bus from there as well? Regards 3103

[Globemiester]

No worries. Yep, the bus runs from one of the stops right outside the ground floor of T5 and is one stop (5mins) from waterside.

[binsleepen]

The bus stop is at the far southern end of the terminal, out side the arrivals level. You can't miss it, there will be loads of BA crew standing around in the cold staring at their mobile phones.

regards

[clearofconflict]

The bus stop is number 19 I think. The bus is either the BA1 or BA5, one goes straight to Waterside, one might do a slight detour. The crew car park bus goes from stand 21, hence why there will be lots of BA crew standing around.

[pilot3103]

Thanks a lot to all for the information, really helpful, will be giving it my best shot then! Regards 3103

[Fullback]

I got the 'no' on Monday and I'm staggered by the condescending tone of their email...

'.....this decision reflects our current recruitment priorities and the nature of the skills we are seeking.'

For us mere mortals that are 'never going to be good enough for BA' I'd like to know what those 'skills' are. As far as I can see those from my airline that have been successful, fly exactly the same aeroplane, to exactly the same places with exactly the same competence as me..... :ugh:

Good luck to everyone trying.

[bex88]

I would not pretend to be a supporter of the recruitment system but I cannot deny my surprise at the result. With about 1000 pilots on the airbus fleet I can honestly say I have only twice really wanted to get off the aircraft and as far away from the guy next to me as possible.

The process offers a small window in which a candidate can be viewed and variables such as the group of applicants, nerves and assessors obviously mean there will be some questionable outcomes. I think everyone must accept that this system does reject some good pilots but it certainly rejects many more on merit. There is always an odd ball that gets all the way through. They however usually get weeded out at the late stages of training or when they enter MOP. How does a FPP candidate get chucked out after going through all the training? I guess its hard to assess stupidity

[HAWK767]

I Got a somewhat more polite wording in my Application rejection Letter;
(No Airbus or Widebody Boeing Experience, only 737 experience)

Thank you for your recent application for First Officer which we have now been able to review in greater detail.

Due to very strong competition for this vacancy we regret to advise you that, after careful consideration, our decision is not to take your application further on this occasion.

Should you wish to re-apply for a similar position again in the future we would be delighted to receive another application from you once 6 months have elapsed from the date of your application to this recruitment campaign.

Due to the high volume of applications we are unfortunately unable to offer feedback.

May we thank you for the time you have given us and wish you every success in the future.

Yours sincerely
British Airways Recruitment

[Uberhesch]

A friend of mine just attended and interview and said that after a q & a session, he was left in no doubt that recruitment would only be onto the Bus, unless ex mil and/or with wide body experience, even then it was no gaurenteed they would get longhaul.

Can anybody confirm this?

[Superpilot]

I notice they are still talking about 6 months for re-application. Someone on here mentioned that was a mistake :confused:

[777X]

Is it not the case of 12 months if you attended selection and 6 months if not invited. And the 12 months is from date of interview...

[wiggy]

Uberhesch

What your friend heard sounds about right, it's consistent with we've been hearing and seeing internally .

The latest state of affairs was covered by BugSpeed on the other BA recruitment thread here:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/473519-british-airways-dep-selection-lowdown-part-2-a-26.html (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/473519-british-airways-dep-selection-lowdown-part-2-a-26.html)

[Widebdy]

What fleet are people being offered? Do BA pay any attention to your current type rating once selection is passed?

Could it be true that a 320 rated pilot be recruited onto the 787, while a non rated (e.g 737) pilot goes SH. I would have imagined that 320 rated pilots would be kept on the 320 in order to keep training/cost to a minimum?

[ALLOW]

I was under the impression there was 90 going to the Jumbo and 27 to the 787, all DEP. Could they all be filled already???

[nick14]

737 rated friend has been offered the 787 starting in March. Ex hold pooler.

[wiggy]

Sound's like a good and interesting result for your friend to say the least.

I wonder if the fact he/she isn't currently rated on the 'bus worked to their advantage (assuming he/she, etc, actually wants to go long haul).

[Youngaviator254]

Can anybody who has recently done the assessment shed the light on the numerical reasoning? is it the long data interpretation type questions or all short basic questions similar to those given in the SHL booklet?

Thanks!

[Globemiester]

It's the short stuff. No graphs or tables. 25 questions in not a lot of time. I think it is 8 minutes.

[Lazygolfer]

Still heard nothing, so obviously not top of their list. Does anybody know anything about when it's likely to get an answer one way or the other. Not holding out too much hope now!

[Reversethrustset]

Lazygolfer don't give up hope, I heard at the end of last week for day 1 so they are still contacting people. Hang in there :ok:

[Lazygolfer]

Thanks. I will keep checking my e-mail 50 times a day with my fingers crossed!

[flydog]

just got called for day one

[Juan Tugoh]

BA is really big on NOTECH skills, so being able to fly the sim well is important but is only half the story.

[wiggy]

+1 to the above.

Those assessing the simulator work take into account your previous types, experience, etc. They're not looking for you to be an "ace" handling an unfamiliar type (nice if you can, though TBH don't think I've ever aced the handling on any type..:suspect:.) they will for sure be looking at how well you interact with your colleague on the day.....

[flydog]

What kind of NOTECH skills

[bucket_and_spade]

The same ones as your current airline! :ok:

[Chief Brody]

Re: What kind of notech skills.

TBH just be yourself.

If you have them (and there's is a very long 'official' list of desirable vs undesirable ones - eg through personal style creates atmosphere for open communication) then welcome aboard.

Im in the rh seat and its moderately rare to fly with the same person twice - all BA pilots lack the 'small base' luxury of building relationships.

As such my point is, put bluntly, I'd rather spend my 'one off' flight/tour with someone who naturally has good notechs rather than someone who acted in the sim and then defaulted to true 'less desirable' self. Trust me, there are a handful of faces who are already in and got in long before the importance of notechs was set down in company policy and truly became part of the corporate culture.

I understand this is curt and not helpful but I think if youre honest you'd probably agree. BA is huge, yet it's unusual to fly with someone unpleasant - there's a reason for this.

Just succinctly verbalise your thoughts, make time for the other person to advocate their position, do a 'mini review' here and there, when the other person makes an error point it out gently at first and in a way which keeps them on-side, use humour appropriately - there's nothing wrong with levity. How you do all these and other positive attributes, well that's notechs.

[wiggy]

flydog

FWIW a quick Google revealed this weighty paper:

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/iprc/uploads/files/NOTECHS%20HFAS%20proof%20copy.pdf

No need to read it all, AFAIK most airlines teach this now, but if you are completely unfamiliar with the term NOTECH (perhaps more relevant to someone looking at this thread as an prospective FPPer) then the sections from "Structure of the NOTECHS" and most especially the tables describing the various categories gives you a bit of a clue.

That said I think Chief Brody summed it up rather well - it's a big airline ( like many), you rarely fly with the same person more than a handful of times in your career, so you need to be able to establish a working relationship quickly, one that's going to see you through the trip/tour. If you're carp at working with folks then knowing the NOTECHs inside out won't help, but it might be nice to know one or two of the concepts (and key words) if you're pitching up for interview/sim assessment.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

One thing that puzzled me a few years ago, when I did my sim check, was whether I reacted correctly to the trainer trying to put me off my nav. During the complex departure he started asking questions such as "speedbird 1, requesting time estimate for MID". Told hime to standby, so he asked again, and told him to standby again (we were just about to intercept a radial). Once established on the radial, I gave him the time estimate.

In real life, that's what I would do. But since I didn't get through and otherwise flew to IR standards, I always wondered whether he thought I lacked spare capacity...

[bucket_and_spade]

I did much the same as you in the sim. I think that your response was 100% the right one. I think the BA sim is about the big picture of you as a pilot with an emphasis on NOTECHS. I failed at the sim stage a few years ago but got in this time.

[OBK!]

Permafrost, sorry to hear you didn't get through the sim.

Perhaps you could have used PM to figure out the time? I think that was the capacity/CRM test, although there's nothing unsafe about what you did, there can be times when you can take workload management a bit overboard. Keeping ATC waiting on an estimate for longer than 30 seconds isn't necessarily a NOTECHs skill. Though not being rushed in to a non precision approach due to smoke in the cabin maybe.

Manually flying a SID during flap retraction while entering cloud in freezing conditions and updating the MCP/FCU etc...would you tell ATC to standby as a matter of routine if they gave you a frequency change plus heading change (for example) or asked you if you could make FLxxx by point X during this high workload situation? We're talking London TMA here also. (I know that the autopilot would go in if it got very busy). It's not too disimilar to a normal day operating out of Heathrow. Add to that some CB's in the TMA and traffic in the holds, and the 767 autopilots appalling handling of the flap retraction at high weights (hence manually flying...I'm aware the 747 is used in the sim test) Good teamwork makes it quite manageable.

Good luck to all with applications. Notechs is definitely the key but I think demonstration of them rather then being overly overly cautious maybe the idea. I could be wrong however and might have slipped through the net when I had my sim test, but the trainer seemed to think me and sim partner handled situations quite well. We did get the estimate question and used the flight plan they gave us (cumulative time plus airborne time) as an estimate.

[Juan Tugoh]

The key is that you are a crew in the sim. You are unlikely to pass while your buddy fails - you tend to pass or fail together, so act as a crew. It is pointless being the best single pilot operator of the 747 sim BA have ever seen if you let your sim buddy do something stupid and say nothing - it merely proves you are not a team player. It is far better to be told to stop helping in the sim than be deemed to not not be a team player.

Be yourself, there are plenty of places available so the only person you are "competing with" in the sim is yourself. Be a team player, it makes everyone safer and that is what BA wants. Handling is important but NOTECH skills will get you through the assessment.

BA loves TDODAR and plane, path people. It also likes you to operate at the Think Ahead end of the SA spectrum. all this is easier if you think and act like a member of a crew.

[flydog]

Thanks everyone I was just not familiar with the terminology NOTECHS, my company has over 9600 pilots and speak another language with a lot of slang so definitely practicing it,
Has anyone else tried to book first day testing slot and got message non available?

[BugSpeed]

Just to back up all the NOTECHs comments really.

Chief Brody's comments are spot on.

[MEG@DK]

Hi,

Great thread, not ruined by miserable sods yet:-)

I've got the assessment coming up in January and there is quite a lot of information that will help me brush up on this thread, just one thing I can't find an answer to... Are there physics questions? My physics knowledge has had very limited use since 1997 and a question on thermodynamics or waves might not go down too well:bored:..

Anyone who's been remember any physics bits?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

No need to brush up on quantum wave equations ;)

It's all ratios, surfaces, angles, percentages, distance travelled, etc. The main challenge is speed as you pretty much only get 30 seconds per question.

Well I have a new shot at the sim, so we'll see if I've improved since last time :ok:

[flydog]

What is TDODAR?

I got invited to day 1 and picked day in Feb, went to book a flight which was expensive to make sure I get there, went back to invite site and it says no slots available.

BA send daily reminders to remind me to book the day 1 as per the invite, but then states maybe no more slots will be allocated!

Is this a situation where they only allow so many slots and invite many more people than there are slots? if so I need to try and get a refund for my flight.

Appreciate any info

[ETOPS]

Hey flydog let me Google that for you....:ok:


Best Practice in Pilot Monitoring | Safety & Risk Management | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2575&pagetype=90&pageid=14524)

This is the BASIS (see what I did there?) of problem solving both in the sim and on line flights. Have to say it works well, especially as everyone in BA is expecting that this framework will be used. Have actually used it in anger with a good outcome....

[bex88]

If your invited then they want to see you. They don't invite 10 candidates and only provide spaces for 5. They maybe thin down the 10 to 5 after day one but all get their chance.

TDODAR

Time (how much time do you have? Fuel endurance? Fire? Icing? What is limiting your time? Maybe nothing so set a deadline for a course of action)
Diagnosis, what is the problem or more importantly how does that affect the aircraft and its capability. How will you get your flaps, gear, brakes. How will you go around?
Options, if you have one solid option and are short on time then that's enough. If you have time then explore a few others. Ask your colleague for another option)
Decision, if times short it maybe as simple as can we stop in that distance with this failure. With time you can run through BRAN benefits, risk, analysis and what if we do nothing of your two, three options
Allocate, who will do what and how
Review, constantly review your decision. What's changed? Does our decision still work. Maybe you now have more time, maybe the runway is now wet with a light tail wind.

It sounds like a right faf but it works really well. When you brief the approach not only brief what you will do but how you will do it. Not required for the sim as your not type rated but include automation and FMA's. Set yourself gates eg here I will be at .....kts, flap 1-2 etc. gear down at.....if you deviate from the plan verbalized why. This helps your colleague to support you by giving an easy point to intervene if your not flying the plan.

It maybe as fast as. Time....none we are on fire. Diagnosis......eng fire....aircraft is Cat 3 single. Options......can we go back from where we just took off? Probably pre briefed this. Decide....it fits what we pre briefed. Allocate....as we brief prior to departure, Review.....all the time until you get in your car and drive home.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Before Christmas they were giving 3rd 4th 5th but don't know now.

[Ronand]

Can anybody recommend a software, that reflects the currently used aptitude tests?

[bex88]

The daily mail crossword and suduko.

[Deano777]

Does anyone have any serious and sensible answers, please?

[Chief Brody]

Quite right Deano777......

What Bex meant to say was The Times crossword and suduko

:) Happy New Year y'all

[Al Murdoch]

Bex's suggestions are actually not unreasonable...

[JaxofMarlow]

Given that a RAF Eurofighter pilot failed and a useless, talentless, personality challenged nob in a LoCo passed I think BEX is spot on. Yep, bitter and twisted.

[OBK!]

Given that a RAF Eurofighter pilot failed and a useless, talentless, personality challenged nob in a LoCo passed I think BEX is spot on. Yep, bitter and twisted.


Oh dear. WhyByFlier/BlackandBrown got in!?!?

[wiggy]

Can't comment on the LoCo guy, perhaps he's got a good act in the sim, but:

Given that a RAF Eurofighter pilot failed...

Hate to say it but the ability to fly a rather challenging single seat aircraft may not be a particularly good indicator as to how you're going to perform in a crew environment.

One of the most "difficult" :ugh: student QFI's I ever had the pleasure to instruct came from a single seat background - absolutely ace pilot, on the numbers and all that but boy did he know it and he had absolutely no empathy or patience with a struggling (simulated) "Bloggs" :}...

There's a reason why there's a aviation drinking song with the line:

"You can tell a fighter pilot but you can't tell him much".

That said a lot of ex-FJ pilots have successfully made it into BA over the years, but I'm guessing they didn't bring their TopGun act to the assessment sim.

[RexBanner]

Re: Sudoku. Anyone thinking there is anything that is in the least bit mathematic about it are dead wrong. It is pure logic. You could have pictures of nine different types of dogs to replace numbers for instance and it would still be exactly the same task/challenge. Thread drift sorry but wanted to make the point.

Having said that logical reasoning still very good to practice!

[ppilots]

Does anyone else have their BA SIM check in the first week of Feb? Would be handy to find my partner.

[MEG@DK]

Thanks Permafrost!

Might as well ask a little more if so many of you have done the assessments..

Is it "just" quick mental arithmetic and aptitude tests on these assessments or am I right in brushing up on line equations, trigonometry and algebra?

If anyone remembers the hardest question they encountered that would be great. Seem to be more about double digit multiplication than 3x - 4y = 1 type stuff??!

[buzzc152]

Is anyone still waiting to hear if they get in an interview ?

[ChaseIt]

Any rumour on when the next recruitment drive might be?

[peacekeeper]

Hi MEG@DK

There are a few books on amazon for numerical reasoning which reflect the kind of questions I had in 2012. It's pretty basic maths, no algebra as far as I remember. Fractions, percentages, ratio, area of rectangles and circles, Pythagoras, long division. Basic GCSE stuff.

Example: A man buys four fence posts for £40.75. They were reduced in a sale by 17.5%. How much was one fence post before the sale.

There is around 25 questions to be completed in a tight time frame so just practice lots of questions with about 30 seconds per question.

Does anyone have some more info regarding the multi tasking aptitude test with the ECAM and TCAS? Any tips would be much appreciated!

[Abbey Road]

That said a lot of ex-FJ pilots have successfully made it into BA over the years, but I'm guessing they didn't bring their TopGun act to the assessment sim.
An important point! I am not an ex-FJ pilot, but I am ex-AAR/AT, and my research at the time showed that there was a 'game to be played' on both the interview/assessment day, and the simulator day. As expected! Of course, any former ASCOT callsign types will have already had exposure to the multi-crew environment, and a chance to practise and hone their own methods of working in 2, 3 or 4 crew flight-deck environments. But even some of them they do not make it in to BA, so there are no guarantees.

Consequently, it is up to everyone to do their homework, and there is plenty that can be done, before attending for DEP entry. So, whilst everyone needs to freshen up their 'act' for a job interview/assessment, as Wiggy suggests, perhaps it is up to some of the ex-FJ folk to look deeper into the corners they haven't given much consideration before?

[Hiltonharry]

Does anyone have their sim ride 17th Jan? If so drop me a private message.

Thanks.

[MEG@DK]

Thanks for the example Peacekeeper

[overstress]

DEPs for -400 still required a little bird said today.

[wingedwilliam]

Does the little bird know how many are needed this year? What about the other fleets?

[OBK!]

Lots required. Heard other airlines have been contacted for possible help.

[JaxofMarlow]

If true, then more fool them for turning down so many seriously good people/pilots with their bonkers assessment.

[OBK!]

Thanks for that life commentary. Saved BA a about nano second anyway. I'm sure you're a well rounded lovely bloke/lady who would pull his/her weight during a hefty delay with angry (pyscho?) passengers.

[OBK!]

Thank the gods! Doing 45 block hours this month, could do with the time away. Catch you on another thread. This is to do with BA recruitment which you've made quite clear...wouldn't suit you. No need to waist any more of your nano seconds contributing to it.

[Superpilot]

Oh come on OBK! let us display our bitterness just a little. I spent 3 weeks preparing for the assessment and used every damn spare hour of the day. I spent over £200 on books, practice tests and software. Despite this I failed stage 1. Statistically speaking, I've passed most of the assessments I've attended. It's just that the jobs end up being in god forsaken parts of the world that I end up running away from. Happy where I am now (first time at home in 4 years of flying commercially), though BA would've been better! :ok:

[4468]

Sick
More fool them for pulling the rug from under GSS, and all its pilots
I thought BA simply moved their business to another provider?

Are you saying your previous company couldn't drum up any business other than BA's?

No wonder BA moved their business!

[buzzc152]

I got a call up for stage 1. Yay.
I may have missed it, but can candidates park their car at the Waterside Center?
The confirmation letter only mentions the bus.

[JW411]

"The confirmation letter only mentions the bus"

Do you think there might just be a subtle clue enclosed within that message?

[buzzc152]

No JW411, I don't.

[Pork chop express]

Hey Buzz

Best to get the bus, i turned up in the car thinking i am at BA HQ of course i can park! Managed to talk my way in eventually but no there is no parking although surprisingly there were loads of spaces when i went to the car park!! :E:ok:

[RJ100]

Wingedwilliam

I was told: 80 DEP for 747 and a total across all fleets of 311 in 2015.

[bucket_and_spade]

To be fair, the parking (or lack of) and transport options are well covered in the pre-assessment info sent out...

[bucket_and_spade]

Over-prepping for stage 1 may be counter-productive, for the aptitude tests at least. I'm pretty sure part of the aptitude testing looks at improvement/learning curve - if you've overprepared on similar (or identical) tests you might be very good at them but show no trend in improvement. Maths/verbal is obviously different and preparation helps a lot.

On the subject of the BA assessment as a whole - there is enough info out there, all relatively easy to access, about the format and even quite a bit of the detail. Combine this with a reasonable dose of the character traits BA want and a bit of luck (like with any assessment process) and you should do well. Yes, there's a bit of game playing (I see this more as proper preparation) but where isn't there? I didn't get in a few years ago - it was lack of proper prep (for the sim stage mostly) and a bit of bad luck. This time I prepped properly and got in. If writing a couple of essay answers to questions and doing a bit of research in preparation is too much effort, why should BA give you a job? I don't think BA is for everyone but after putting in a lot of thought I came to the conclusion that BA would be a good move for me...so prepared accordingly. There's no guarantees of course but you can very much weight the chances of success in your favour with the right homework.

I wasn't bitter last time when it didn't work out because (a) I could have prepared better and (b) it's BA's train set - they can recruit who they like and are obviously happy with the end results of selection or it would be changed.

In all honesty this thread could have no more contributions and be closed now - applicants would still have everything they needed to properly prepare and do well. It's all already here (and in other threads). It just involves sitting down with a beer or cuppa and putting the time in to read it rather than repeat the same questions - the assessment hasn't essentially changed in years.

Good luck! :)

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

Anyone who went for assessment early this week pass? Not got any dates open to book for interview.

[747 Downind]

Yes in the same boat: there were two adjacent days but were not compatable with my roster so was waiting to see if more would be released, as my next roster had not been released. Those dates quickly disappeared! Contemplating contacting them but might just sit patiently and see if more become available online soon.

[itsnotwhoyouknow]

I just called them they just said none are open yet, but just to keep logging in. I wonder if they are just waiting for enough to pass latest assessments and move onto next stage.

[overstress]

The first 747 DEPs are battling with ground school this week, they'll be on the line in late Feb.

I would advise taking whatever measures you can to make a sim slot, I took a view on it when I got my date and (ahem) made sure I was there. BA is all about getting your seniority number. Delay now could cost you dear in years to come.

[747 Downind]

Thanks itsnotwhoyouknow, I've been checking like a neurotic!
Overstress thanks for the advice, that was in the back of my mind but I just wanted a tad bit more time as well to prepare. Next slot released I'll jump at!!

[Lead]

Apologies if this has come up in another thread but I've been through most of them about BA and could only find a little info.

I know part time working is available within BA, but is part year working available? Essentially unpaid leave during winters etc.

I know BA's operation is much less seasonal than some of the charter operators, but I was just wondering if its an option?

Any help appreciated.

[Stocious]

Not to my knowledge.

They may offer unpaid leave if over crewed, but probably not for the foreseeable.

[wiggy]

Wot stocious said.

They have never offered part year work. If "they" realise at some point the program will support standing people down on unpaid leave on an ad hoc basis they will do it, on a month by month basis, but don't plan on it or rely on it because it is not contractural. OTOH the part time contracts have a more rigid rule set.

[Youngaviator254]

Has anybody got any good websites or names of books for the type of numerical questions we face in the assessment, or info on the current capacity tests? Assessment in a few weeks.

Thanks in advance.

[no sponsor]

I think you've got to bid for part time working, so it's done in seniority order, if it's available. There's probably some basic experience requirements too.

Practice area calculations in shapes, fractions, addition, multiplication, subtraction, division. If I remember correctly, there quite a lot of working out areas in shapes, quick divisions, etc but I did it 4 + years ago. There are some really time consuming questions, and I left those well alone.

[Hanni]

Are the maths questions exactly the same than 4 years ago or did they change their database?

[wiggy]

I think you've got to bid for part time working, so it's done in seniority order, if it's available.

Correct, and AFAIK nobody is getting "aspirational" part time until late summer/autumn because of manning levels.

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Whereas RTR part time is available pretty quickly, so if you have kids under 18 it's readily available.

The Aspirational Part Time at BA is either 1 month on, 1 off, or 2 on, 1 off. Is means large blocks of time off year round, so a great contract!

I am a 75% Part Time Long Haul SFO at BA (21 on, 7 off) and love it!

It's the standard BA advice, but here EVERYTHING is done on seniority, so get in at the earliest opportunity. If you are coming here, you are coming for a full career, so take the earliest offered course, rather than hold out for one you really want.

[wiggy]

P T G

Absolutely agree re seniority. I joined BA during the big recruiting push of the very late '80s. I took a month out between leaving my old employers and joining BA and I reckon that cost me around 50 - 70 places in terms of seniority and probably at least 6 months in time to command. That's not a big deal, because there are some real horror stories - if you find yourself just the wrong side of the divide if the music stops due to unforeseen circumstances you can find that a delay in getting a joining date can cost you dear...

[overstress]

Re 'seasonal'. At the risk of stating the (very) obvious, this is a scheduled airline. Granted there are summer and winter schedules, but what is winter in N Hemisphere.... you get the idea. Businessmen travel all year round, BA wants to make money by selling business seats to the USA and all round the world. You'd be surprised if you knew BA's most single profitable destination!

Having said that there are charter flights as well but these also go on all year round.

[2whites2reds]

18 months in the holdpool, 2 years wait for it re-opening, then 3 months solid work .... and there's the PFO - :ugh:

[Easy5072]

I've been invited to interview but no slots are available (been the case for days now). I continue to receive the automated reminder emails. Assuming everyone upto the interview stage is experiencing the same?

[4468]

About 10 crews worth of 744 flying being ditched, to be replaced largely by about 6 crews worth of 777 flying.

In these days of cheap oil, one might reasonably ask why this is happening?

(This before we 'parked' a 777 into a hangar!)

[WhyByFlier]

So what will happen to all those offered 747 courses? Are some still going on to it or are they going to go to the 777 instead?

[Harry palmer]

Is it the same story for the Planned Airbus courses after April? Would it indicate swimming again for those successful in the Sim from this point on?

[anson harris]

I don't mean to be rude guys - I know this is a rumour network and everything. Any chance you could keep it to facts rather than conjecture please? I'm starting in a few weeks on the 747, and really don't want to be hearing that the massive plunge I have taken in resigning my current position could be changing into something completely different, unless it really is going to happen.

[bylgw]

i think your place on the 747 should be safe, but you might not get the relative seniority cushion you were expecting

[4468]

anson

Keeping it to 'facts'!

You've accepted a job with British Airways. Any time for the next 5 years, (including the period before you join) BA have every right to decide on which fleet you will fly.

But of course you knew that already!

[anson harris]

Of course I knew that - I just wasn't expecting it to change before the first 5 minutes have elapsed.
I'm just asking for people to bear in mind that for some of us, a lot hangs on any changes to what has been offered and perhaps bear that in mind before presenting unknowns as hard facts.
Thanks.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Seems like this is a fairly significant change of plans for BA. Any ideas what's behind it?

[4468]

anson
for some of us, a lot hangs on any changes to what has been offered and perhaps bear that in mind before presenting unknowns as hard facts?
Mate, you're joining(?) British Airways. The only 'factual' information you will ever receive is what happened yesterday!

EVERYTHING else is somebody's guess, based on somebody's estimate, built on somebody's prediction, predicated on the whim of an idiot! Once a butterfly flaps it's wings in Mongolia, the whole plan is sewage!

Recent history shows us our union is the same!

Please forgive those here attempting to pass on the most ACCURATE timely information to anyone interested. Something you object to, just because it gives you indigestion!

CC

The answer you are seeking may well be found in the relationship between BA and CTC, which was to provide a significant proportion of Airbus training!

[Private jet]

Reading this thread, forget "horses for courses" it really has become "whores for courses".... I can smell the ambition & desperation from here. I used to work for BA, I left back in 97, too many "arse crawler" PC types even then. The sages are right, it's certainly not for everybody!

[Lead]

I've been looking but can't find it. Can anyone post the pp34 scales in full? The current overtime rates? Etc

Ppjn is not too helpful.

Thanks

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

The answer you are seeking may well be found in the relationship between BA and CTC, which was to provide a significant proportion of Airbus training!

Are you implying that CTC are now not providing a significant proportion of the Airbus training?

[Chuffer Chadley]

Yes, a bit cryptic that, 4468! Care to elaborate?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Whatever has caused the re-calculation, there are now 100 less pilots required for this year, so more like 200 new entrant spots rather than the 300-odd previously planned. That's pretty much the gist of it. Apparently.



Until they change their minds on Monday/1st week of April/whenever. If you already have a start date I wouldn't worry too much. Probably.:hmm:

[peacekeeper]

Easy5072,

New interview slots have been released today.

Does this change in required numbers have anything to do with the new crew optimiser software 'Crystal'?

[Maxbrake]

How many have been offered a position/start date so far and how many can BA train a month?

[Harry palmer]

Does that indicate a return of the hold pool and its 12 month limit?

[Maxbrake]

Anyone who attended stage 2 this week heard anything yet?

[EMB-145LR]

I have my Stage 1 assessment day coming up. Just trying to get up to speed on my mental maths. Anything in particular I should be looking to focus on? Long division, area of circles, squares, triangles etc? Any trigonometry or algebra? Can anyone recommend any practice sites?

[OBK!]

EMB145 there's plenty of guidance if you just look.

[EMB-145LR]

OBK! granted this is true. However, much of it is well over ten years old now and it would seem the process has changed quite a bit. I was wondering if this extended to the maths portion too.

[justanotherstat]

EMB-145LR

See post #978 or latestpilotjobs.com and pay them £20ish for pretty good info on the whole process. It's nothing you won't find here though.

The maths is pretty basic stuff, just not enough time to finish the paper, so choose the easier to calculate questions.

[Dr Esteban]

Anyone managed to get a sim slot at the beginning/middle of February?

Drop me a line!

[Turbomouse]

Does anybody know if there is an actual "right to work document" for a European Citizen (i.e. some physical document or form), or could a passport from a European member state be considered as a "right to work document" in itself?

[fantom]

Direct entry pilot.

How can there be a non-direct entry pilot?

Via Tesco?

[wiggy]

Know what you mean.....FWIW historically it's been used by BA to describe anyone who hasn't joined through one of it's cadet schemes.

[Narrow Runway]

You may have hit on something here.

How about if flight schools and low cost airlines put those scratch card things by the tills in Tesco?

You know, just like "Nando's", "O2" and others do?

But, instead of denominations starting at £10, these pay to fly cards could begin at £110,000. Of course, there would be some glossy photos of Ray-bans and perhaps an aspirational sponsored advert from a local Porsche garage.

Of course, such a card couldn't be used to purchase a career in BA.

Or could it?

[SK1]

I was very surprised to hear from several Aer Berlin FO's that they have all been sent an email offering them an assessment with BA for a minimum two year contract on the 747 or 777.
Anyone know of a similar deal for UK pilots with Lufthansa?:*

[Cliff Secord]

That's odd. Surely it seems to conflict with the info from the current BA guys a page back about reduced 744 recruitment need?

Is this verified? Sounds a little like Chinese whispers. Probably more to it in reality.

[Burpbot]

What about the BA scope agreement?

[wiggy]

Just in case you're waiting for a reply and wondering about the deafening silence I think someone needs to mention that you might have a long wait for further verification from the "BA guys", especially over the fine details of contracts and recruiting targets/numbers. An announcement has been made elsewhere making it clear that some of the detailed info that has appeared here probably should not have done so (I think I'm safe in posting that..:bored:).


I am sure they (the "BA guys") are still willing to help when they feel they can..:)

[Maxbrake]

Thanks for the update Wiggy.

[Reversethrustset]

Anyone on here have their day 1 assessment next week on the 28th? Drop me a PM if you feel like meeting up the night before.

[JRK110]

Thanks Wiggy.

I just hope that recruitment opens again sometime soon for those of us who didn't quite make the cut last summer.

Best of luck to all jumping through the hoops at the moment!

[bucket_and_spade]

wiggy,

"the fine details of contracts"

This caught my eye - don't suppose there's any subtle elaboration possible? I have one of those contracts and a start date you see...:O

[wiggy]

Bucket and Spade

It's nothing catastrophic, just a strong plea from on high for people to be less free and easy with the release of potentially sensitive information.

As you've been through the BA process and have a contract I wouldn't lose any sleep about my comments.

[bucket_and_spade]

Thanks wiggy.

[Lead]

Can anyone on the 320 give an idea of their last few rosters? Number of days off? Blank/grey days? Overnights? Total duty/flight hours?

I noticed the overtime working day off payment is pretty low in BA, do you ever get a double payment for early start/late finish if it encroaches on a day off either before or after?

Thanks in advance.

[Juan Tugoh]

The overtime rate at LHR ( LGW is different) is not a daily rate but is dependant on your hourly rate multiplied by 1.25 times the credit for the trip. The hourly rate is broadly speaking your annual salary divides by approximately 1050. All this is underpinned by a minimum daily credit of 4.5

All a bit complex but starting overtime rates mean that you get a minimum of appox £280 plus the allowances accrued for the trip.

[bex88]

During the summer we were working 18-21 days a month. It has eased off a bit now but still about 18 days at work. Usual roster looks something like 6 on usually made up of 2 x 3 day tours 2 or 3 days off then back in for 5 days. Again made up of something like a 3 day tour and a 2 day tour. Another few days off possibly 3 then another 4 or 5 days on with perhaps the odd day trip thrown in. And so it repeats. You can bid for what you want but if your in the bottom 30% forget being able to get anything other than a blind line. AKA no choice.

Day off payment.......about £240 before tax....so about £120 in your pocket.

How many hours? I really don't know but flying hours mean bugger all. What I can say is you will spend many more hours away from home

Duty time from a normal line is about 280hrs a month

[Lead]

Cheers for the help guys, sounds like you lot are working damn hard. Is short haul going to change with easa limitations? Ie get even harder?

[bex88]

Balpa has agreed to roster SH only to EASA FTL's......the long haul fleets are still covered by the old agreement. I understand there is a bit of an argument between what the company and the union think they agreed to.

The amount of credit per trip in a block of work has been reduced so we can expect to have to work another day a month when CAP is high. I was doing 20-21 days a month last summer and still could not reach CAP because the trip credit was so low. Eg say CAP is 89hrs divide this by minimum day credit of 4.5 and you get 20 days work to meet cap. Now the duty rig has been changed you won't get 4.30 per day in a block of work but more like 4.15 so now you have to work 22 days to achieve the same credit. The FTL are now EASA and the new tables have entered our manuals.

The benefit for the company is in them being able to build in more time between our flights when we turn round at home base. Inefficient you would think? Apparently not as it enables the program to be far more robust during disruption. If you are late inbound with an aircraft swap and a minimum turn around time then your next flight goes late. With this system the flight crew are waiting to take the plane off you as they have had a long turn around. They get out ASAP and you now have what was a long turnaround reduced to something approaching normal so you can now get your program back on time. Thats the theory and it makes no difference to the company in cost if your on duty pay in a comfy hotel or a grotty windowless staff canteen. I don't think our time away from base is going to increase because that would increase the cost base but more time in uniform and less time down route is a given

So I don't sound like a complete arse I would sum it up like this. The company asks a lot of you and in return they offer a good package (maybe not the best but competitive) The company in my experience has been very good when i have needed dependency leave and or injury / illness.

If you don't live near London then you really need to think very carefully about your salary and cost of accommodation. Friends of mine commute and to put it very mildly it has been difficult on them and their families.

Truth of BA in the bottom 3rd I am afraid.

[highfive]

Its over for this years recruitment. I went as a widebody Captain, for the interviews. Was offered long haul FO on the triple. After tax , take home around £5000/ month. It cant bring home the bacon.
Interesting career though, if you are under 30. For me , nah BA but thanks for the good people i got to meet for post interview beers ;)

[Wireless]

What do you mean doors closed? The application window shut ages ago but the interviews etc are still on going.

[OBK!]

Can't say I've heard anything about 777 being offered outside the company....or 5000/month take home in the first year!

[Juan Tugoh]

£5000 a month after tax - someone has been a little optimistic with the numbers.

[Lead]

Thanks for the informative post bex. It's really appreciated. I've been offered a position and I'm trying to weigh my options up leaving a very enjoyable UK position with another airline (we're not loco). When you say package, apart from salary and pension and staff travel. What else do you feel is good from BA?

PHI?
Private health insurance?
LoL?
Tax free share scheme?

[bex88]

When I say package I really only think of the pay into my account each month and how I am treated. The pay is not terrible but its not the best. I do however feel looked after by the company and every now and then dare I say I feel valued too. Pension is about market average, maybe slightly above. Health care is good and I hope I never need to call on it but loss of license I don't think is very generous.

Staff travel in my opinion when you first join is close to worthless. It like most things is based on seniority so you can get bumped by pretty much anyone when your new.

Tax free share scheme :} yeah brilliant until it comes to paying out. The deal is then modified and the shares are not awarded but a cash payment instead. IAG said no.

BA is hard when you first join and if your unlucky you will spend years at the bottom with no control over your life.

Of all the airlines I have flown for whilst I would say BA is good in the respect of living in the uk and having some security you do have to pay a heavy price for that. It would not be the easiest job I have had but it may well be the one that keeps me in employment until I retire.

If your at Thomson, Easy on a good contract or Virgin I would probably stay put but otherwise its probably a wise move.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Is staff travel really that bad? It's part of the appeal for me - IN THEORY. With wife and two kids, have I basically got no chance to get myself and family on a flight across the pond any time during school holidays? Be brutally honest :ok:

Is it after 5 years that it gets a bit better with "guaranteed" ticket?

[Harry palmer]

For those of us that battled hard at this years selection and unfortunately missed a step or two is there going to be a similar number required next year or will FPP cover future intakes.

All the best to those that got through.

[wiggy]

Is it after 5 years that it gets a bit better with "guaranteed" ticket?



Of course "better" is a relative term. Even with the once/twice a year enhanced priority ticket you pick up after a few years you are still going to quite possibly be on standby if you're trying to travel as a family over a holiday period, especially to the family friendly destinations.

[bex88]

Wiggy seems to know more about this than me but I would not make your move based on being able to hope on staff travel here there and everywhere. Many many times have I had the conversation about the gamble of staff travel. The risk of being stuck, transferring to another airport because loads are less or buying guaranteed tickets for the wife and kids. These are guys with 15 years service! When it works though.....first class JFK and back thank you.

You have the little issue of work getting in the way of all this play time though :ugh:

Harry: I hear all sorts of rumor on recruitment. Some are saying that since Crystal has been put in charge of establishing the required numbers they have dropped significantly. There had been a lot of talk from ops about how good Crystal was going to be so I do hope her mini skirt is a short as they say.

[Lead]

Thanks Bex.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks for straight answer :sad:

What to do, what to do... The money in the Orange left seat is nice... But 45 sectors a month / 5 earlies in a row /etc... I'd never leave for SH, but LH is one tricky choice.

*scratches head*

[Dr Esteban]

Anyone else in the sim in the first week of Feb?

Would be good to get in touch!

[The African Dude]

Permafrost_ATPL

I had similar thoughts but then sensibly came to this conclusion: it's a short-term decision if you go with a LH offer just because it's LH. I know, you can have a very nice lifestyle part-time LHS with EZY (despite what people say, there is some terrible rostering but BA guys are working just as hard with 6 days on in a row - it becomes what you can make of the options available). Not only could you be reassigned SH (debate likelihood elsewhere) but in a few years those who joined on SH and are transferring to LH will still have seniority over you. Joining BA is a full career move and you're better off in the longer term (and at the end of your career) getting in early on SH. That way you will retire with higher seniority and that means better lifestyle. Patience is a virtue - annoyingly. Best of luck.

[binsleepen]

With regard to staff travel I am still very junior and I have found it works very well. You get one Club ticket for you and family after 6 months with the company but clearly you have to pick your flights sensibly.

Trying to get on the 1 Orlando flight a day in the middle of August is not likely to succeed but trying to get on one of the 20 flights a day to New York or Newark is much more likely.

If you are using it for your family holiday in the summer it is a last minute task. Find the open flights or destinations then book the accomodation. DON'T book your accomodation in January and then expect to get on your flight of choice during the summer holidays. For me it has been very successful but my wife is very flexible and doesn't get too stressed with last minute changes.

If your partner is high maintenance and needs everything confirmed 6 months in advance then staff travel is not for you.

The other option we have is buying confirmed tickets at a discount. Sometimes the discount is fairly considerable but sometimes its only a few pounds. Its always worth checking against the main BA website.

[Denti]

I was very surprised to hear from several Aer Berlin FO's that they have all been sent an email offering them an assessment with BA for a minimum two year contract on the 747 or 777.
Anyone know of a similar deal for UK pilots with Lufthansa?

BA just held some roadshows in berlin, however there is no special deal. Just that they can return after two years with BA (if they manage to get in) to Air Berlin if they want to, at their original place in the seniority list (a deal that has been offered with the unmentionable middle east airline and turkish airlines as well). Apart from that they have to jump through the same hoops as anyone else, once the next recruitment window opens. It was mentioned that around 300 pilots are needed this year with around 100 already recruited, 250 to the a320 fleet and the rest to 787 and 747, but the 787 spots are probably already taken.

Difference between BA and Lufthansa is that BA is growing and actively recruiting, whereas Lufthansa is shrinking and probably seeing redundancies in the future, with a backlog of around a thousand cadets that are waiting for their place in a Lufty flightdeck.

[Burpbot]

Presumably BALPA have nothing to say about the Scope agreement?

[Lead]

So a need of 300. Just curious, how many SFO's have been upgraded? Where did such a massive need come from? Rostering is getting slicker right? Limitations being relaxed etc.

[bex88]

Where did it come from?......B...........M..........I

That's why IAG want Aer Lingus so much.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

The African Dude, yes I am very aware of the seniority issue. But I am looking 10 years down the line. I fear we have it as good as it's going to get with Carolyn and the next one through the revolving door won't be as moderate. And my body is already telling me to go part time. Very, very tricky choice.

Thanks to others about staff travel feedback.

[The African Dude]

I think you're right about that and that's why I advocated jumping with even a SH offer if you're considering making the move. The main question has to be: how much better do you feel your lifestyle will be ten years down the line at BA? If it's significant for your particular circumstances, then you have to bite the bullet and go for it regardless of the fleet offer.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

OK, just read your original post again :ok: Agree with you, but a bit worried about paying the mortgage.

Unfortunately I'm getting wildly conflicting stories on take home pay for year 1 SH and LH! Some make it similar, some different by almost 1k.

If the latter if true, Mrs Permafrost won't be pleased!

[bucket_and_spade]

I have a course offer but am not yet on the payroll. A mate on the 767 (2-3 years service) seems to be netting, on average, a bit over £4k (the lowest was £3.5k ish and the highest £5.5k). It's a 'medium' haul fleet as I understand it. Others on the payroll may be able to clarify but I'm pretty sure I've seen quite a few suggested net figures on this, and other, threads.

[SinBin]

All DEPs start on the same pay, longhaul and shorthaul. Every year, the short haul payscales go up by around 2/3 of that on long haul, however you may then go long haul after 5 years and you go straight onto long haul paypoint 5, roughy a £6-7K pay rise. I net about £4500 per month, sometimes more or less, on a short haul roster PP4 albeit I am on the PP24 pay scales. I have pretty much total control over my life as more join below me. Longhaul beckons next year, on blindlines:sad::ouch:, so I may stay on short haul especially as i have small children. Joining as a DEP on long haul, means you stay junior for a very very long time, as those senior to you bid on to your fleet as they move off from short haul.
I also wasn't that far off a LGW command this year! food for thought.

[ATPLwhoops]

Hi,

Does anyone know if the Multidimensional capacity test when given the audio for the shape / colour needs a trigger input before selection of the colour and number or is it just the colour / number to input?

Thanks

[SinBin]

yes, hence food for thought, but gatwick doesn't have bidline?! I haven't decided to go long haul next year (if I have the option)! I can't say how far off Im afraid nor much else on the 2015 bid.

[bex88]

I think it's a brave man who leaves LHR for LGW. For a long time gatwick has had to prove its right to exist.

Year one FO base your SH take home on £3800. About 1/3 of the pilots are on blind lines.

[Stocious]

More likely to get something of what you want from Carmen in your initial bid than you are from blindlines! There are some people at LGW who are very happy with their lot. Some on the bottom page even have every weekend off this month...

It's also worth noting that those joining on PP34 scales, will have a comparative pay cap at 22 years instead of 16 for LGW skippers, and PP25 for LHR FO's.

[wiggy]

You've got the published top pay points but yes there are a few pay point caps which can possibly be triggered if you stuff up, are unlucky/careless with your bidding/unambitious.....

With the caveat that the rules keep changing, pay scales are alll over the place and therefore I'm very open to correction the last time I looked any LHR based SFO, regardless of fleet, who doesn't bid for all available commands and as a result ends up remaining in the Right Hand seat stays frozen/capped at PP18.

[Juan Tugoh]

A few points:

LGW SH was in difficulty a few years ago but is now expanding, so ignore comments about being brave and going to LGW.

It is not all about braid but given that the pension scheme is a DC system, the earlier you get to the LHS the more you will retire with. LGW commands are significantly more junior that LHR. You can be retired for a long time, why live on less in retirement?

Being junior using Carmen at LGW gives you more control over your life than being junior on a BL, and therefore just being rostered at LHR.

If the offer is an earlier course at LGW that at LHR, remember that at BA seniority is king and the best advice is to take the early number rather than wait for the LHR or LH course. recruitment requirements change, waiting may well leave you in the pool without a job offer at all.

Good luck to all trying to get in.

[ManUtd1999]

Does the 5-year "freeze" apply to transfers between LHR/LGW Airbus fleets? Ie, if you start RHS at Gatwick can you switch over the LHR after a couple of years?

[EMB-145LR]

Out of interest how long does it normal take to hear back? I did the morning slot yesterday (Friday), haven't heard anything so far. Just wondering if it's still the same as it was a few years ago whereby you get a call same day if you've been successful, or an email a few days later if not. Not panicking yet though, hoping for some good news early next week.

Everyone at BA was extremely friendly and helpful, and they were excellent at putting all of us at ease on the day. It was a very pleasant experience.

[anson harris]

I would allow a few more days before even beginning to wonder why you haven't heard. I heard in 2 days after Day 1.

[Stocious]

Does the 5-year "freeze" apply to transfers between LHR/LGW Airbus fleets? Ie, if you start RHS at Gatwick can you switch over the LHR after a couple of years?

Everyone starts with an equipment freeze, and everyone starts with a five year engagement freeze as well.

In essence, you could start on the Airbus at either base, and bid to move to the other but it's entirely dependent on vacancies at either. The engagement freeze means you could be directed to either at the whim of the company, and have to comply.

[bex88]

I stand by my comment. Having seen how out stations were dealt with during the Bmi integration it's a risk. Seniority meant nothing as it can be challenged, geographical cannot and this is why all out station pilots were put on redundancy notice.

Seniority means everything until someone has the brass to challenge it.

[Stocious]

LGW seems to be doing rather well at the moment.

[4468]

bex

In BA, you don't only have bases to worry about. If your analysis was accurate, you'd also have to worry about individual fleets too. (there are currently at least 7, shortly to be 8 in BA!) Never mind the SH/LH - BEA/BOAC divide!!

Remember, you aren't truly paranoid if they really ARE all out to get you!!!:}

[Juan Tugoh]

If you want to play the paranoia game, I would worry about the future for BA SH ops. they are too expensive when measured against another IAG SH operation, namely Vueling. How long will the board accept this money losing situation? Why not replace BA SH with cheaper, more efficient Vueling?

You can play this game till you go mad.

[Jet Set Willie]

Why look at Vueling. Much cheaper version just down the road at London City. Why do you think everyone is running West bound? it's certainly not for the short walk from the car park!!

[Burpbot]

AGAIN!!!!! The scope agreement! Do any of you actually work for BA?

Or has BALPA rolled over and the Scope agreement consigned to history???

[flydog]

For those who made day 2 If successful in day 1 how long is it before you get day 2 scheduled?

trying to arrange days off etc.m

Thanks

[4468]

Jet Set Willie

I've told you before, you talk utter :mad:! The last time was when you said A318 pilots don't fly the A321, and are restricted in the European flying they can do????:rolleyes: