BA Direct Entry Pilot. [Archive] - Page 14

wiggy

12th Nov 2016, 11:51

I think the issue is the fact that BA have potentially recruited for jobs that, if this thread is correct, don't exist.

Sadly I don't think there was any such think as a guaranteed job in aviation, let alone guarantees of promised positions, at any airline.. there's a limited number posts and there's the prickly issue that an increasing number of current BA employees have got the seniority for those "jobs"...

FWIW:

Up until recently as we all know there was a need for a lot of recruitment at BA, as we know most entrants went onto the A320. No problem there.

As far as filling Long Haul seats that was a bit unusual (in terms of numbers). Because of type freezes for those recruited to Short Haul at the front end of the current recruiting bulge, and the company's reluctance to release individuals early from their freeze periods (on the grounds of lack of training capacity) the company could "legitimately" deny internal transfers from those wanting to leave Short Haul and recruit DEPs direct to LH without busting agreements. Obviously some feathers were indeed ruffled (as witnessed in a previous post) and I have to say I can sympathise with the POV of those who suffered as a result.

Fast forward twelve months and even more BA P2s have exited their freeze periods and have entirely legitimate expectations of being slotted into the established process for conversion to a Long Haul type. There's a lull in deliveries - the A380 Fleet is now (I think) fully established, the only new Long Haul hull due in the year is a single 787 ...chuck the newly revealed business plan into the mix and suddenly it appears that there aren't going to be anything like as many vacant Long Haul RHS next year as there were this year. As a result it's going to be very hard for management to justify large numbers of DEPs leap frogging onto Long Haul ahead of existing time served/freeze served BA P2s. In conclusion I'd expect the vast vast majority of LH slots next year will go to existing BA P2s..there's no shortage of internal bidders. That doesn't mean there's no possibility of DEPs direct to Long Haul...but IMHO if it happens it won't be offered in significant numbers.

Of course you can never say never, there might be a sudden change of fleet plan, the next run of the "system" might chuck up shortages...but at the moment this does look like being a relatively slack year...

Ea300

12th Nov 2016, 13:03

I was offered and accepted a short haul position mid last month. I was in the long haul pool but due to circumstances was happy to accept short haul. From what was mentioned it definitely seems as though there will be very few DEP LH offers made. I was swimming for just over 6 months! Good luck to everyone waiting, hopefully it won't be too long.

Julietsierra6 May I ask when you did your sim assessment?

tommytailwind

12th Nov 2016, 15:19

I doubt it will make much difference to internal bidders / external recruitment but I personally know two recent joiners to the company on long haul who are returning to Ryanair in the coming few weeks

RexBanner

12th Nov 2016, 17:21

That's not even the most shocking one. A couple used their right to return to go back to Monarch recently.

VJW

12th Nov 2016, 17:35

Some good posts here recently. I even agree totally with the frustrations probably experienced by SH Fo's being leap frogged by DEP's to LH positions. As wiggy explains though this is just the way of the world really. In my airline there are guys joining as DEP's getting their base from day 1 along with going onto a contract where they're employed directly by the airline. I'm 8 years in and still don't have either.

However I like to think I'm sensible. I did apply via the LH application, and this is my third attempt.. I'm more than willing to accept basically anything they offer me in any base. I'd hate to sink in the pool and am hoping that now I've let them know I'd accept a SH position that i will be offered one at some point.

I also heard the pool duration might be extended to 18 months although of course I've no idea if this is true.

blimey

12th Nov 2016, 22:42

Short Haul is nowhere near as bad as some on here make out. That's also coming from a commuter.

Yes it is.

chocolateracer

12th Nov 2016, 23:01

One of the team involved in recruitment tells me there about 80 odd in the hold pool which will satisfy all BA's needs for 2017. Add this to the recent information out from the postings and promotions department stating that next year recruits will be onto A320 at LHR/LGW.

wiggy

13th Nov 2016, 06:37

I've said more than enough in my previous post but maybe I should have added : if the Long Haul DEP slots don't materialise please don't blame the individuals on the recruiting team - those I know, right from the ex "boss" down, are very straight and forthright individuals and they will have been acting in good faith on information they had available to them at the time.

They may have been overtaken by events (including a new CEO) and the new business plan.

JulietSierra6

13th Nov 2016, 07:27

Ea300 my sim was early April.

bex88

16th Nov 2016, 15:17

Latest forecast which does not take account of aspirational part time bids is LHR and LGW A320 DEP for 2017. LH looks like it has enough bids to supply from internal applications. Most junior is 3500 for P2 777 and 3000 for P2 787 so that is about 5-6 years service. There are no forecast commands on A320 other than gatwick but that's bounced to normal levels of around 2300. Joining SH with a view of a quick command is probably going to disappoint. The LH P2 seniority levels would suggest it goes down to unfrozen levels so that could mean there could be DEP onto LH due to frozen bids. It's worth noting however unlike the A320 which was tagged as DEP the LH fleets just have a seniority number along side. It's not a clear cut answer but that's as much info as anyone has and should help people decide. My two pence, if I were swimming and got offered SH I would not be so bold as to turn it down to wait for LH.

prisoner24601

17th Nov 2016, 09:25

Does anyone know rumours of recruitment opening again?

back to Boeing

17th Nov 2016, 11:54

Allowed time in the hold pool has been extended to 18 months. Only 1 long haul aircraft being delivered next year not seen any mention of any short haul hulls.

Put those all toether and I guess the recruitment website will be quiet for a little while to come.

But then again that was yesterday's plan.

wiggy

17th Nov 2016, 12:49

Even without new hulls it shouldn't be complete gloom and doom - as has been mentioned there's the issue of demand for Part Time working contracts, which if granted in significant numbers could produce some demand for new entrants, there's also the fact that retirements will start to pick up as people reach 65...

It's hard to see at the moment what will happen and whether there will be enough demand to trigger a call for LH DEPs in 2017 but as bex88 has said: " if I were swimming and got offered SH I would not be so bold as to turn it down to wait for LH."

VJW

17th Nov 2016, 13:23

I'm swimming having applied via the LH route. I've let BA know I'd accept a SH offer however judging by the email I received the other day and the fact pool duration is now 18 months, I have it in my head that I won't receive any offer (the email said no LH offers in 2017, and the 'majority' of SH offers would go to type rated guys- which I am not) until this time next year at the earliest.

SinBin

17th Nov 2016, 13:59

Apparently there has been a significant reduction of about 12% of flying for next year, with some non profitable routes being canned, Chengdu was the first victim, more to come it would seem.

Emma Royds

17th Nov 2016, 15:29

IAG lowers plans for capacity growth, fleet investment & profit, but keeps return on capital target (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/iag-lowers-plans-for-capacity-growth-fleet-investment-profit-but-keeps-return-on-capital-target-312849)

Food for thought.

Stocious

17th Nov 2016, 22:10

70% of swimmers are non-type rated apparently. Keep up those hopes!

RexBanner

18th Nov 2016, 21:36

LH looks like it has enough bids to supply from internal applications. Most junior is 3500 for P2 777 and 3000 for P2 787 so that is about 5-6 years service.

Don't know if you meant it like that Bex but as a pure guide of time to LH that's incorrect as of this moment. Seniority of around 3150 has been in the company four and a half years, I know that as I know a couple of people in that bracket personally. This month there are a few people leaving/having left the A320 fleet to go Long Haul with seniority of greater than 3400, 250 places junior to my friends, which makes their time in the company a little over four years (if that).

If you're not after a specific fleet then that's a possible indication of time to LH going forward, especially given the points Wiggy has made (retirements picking up), with the usual health warnings about the clarity of the crystal ball. Of course Bex if you're specifically referring to the Yammer post about the seniority required for internal transfer to the 787 fleet in 2017 then you're more or less right, although I'd edge closer to 5 years.

My advice? Take Short Haul if it's offered. If you really want to spend the rest of your career in BA it's an absolute no brainer. Waiting another 18 months will make a huge difference to your career in this airline, it's just one giant seniority machine and anyone joining would be best advised to get their name on the Master Seniority List at the earliest opportunity regardless of the fleet.

Of course you have the additional prospect of another black swan event making any recruitment in 2018 vanish and you will be kicking yourself forever if that is the case.

bex88

19th Nov 2016, 12:35

Hi Rex

Good post. Yeah it was a rough estimate. From last years bid guys who are on courses for the 2016 training year may have been in BA for about 4 years so just out of their training freeze. Next year my estimate was that that would increase and guys/girls would probably expect to serve their 5 year freeze. To sum it up, in my first year I moved up the seniority list about 70 places. In the last two years we have seen about 800 pilots join the list. This year commands are about 1400-1500 places higher. Seems like we all agree, when the phone rings take any fleet offered. Hopefully the company can continue to offer growth and good jobs for more pilots.

binsleepen

19th Nov 2016, 21:02

Hi Rex, there is only 1 weeks difference in time in BA between seniority of approx 3000 and 3400 as all the BMI guys joined together in 1 day in late April 2012.

RexBanner

20th Nov 2016, 08:32

Binsleepen cheers I didn't account for that but the central point I was making was that it's unlikely to be significantly longer than your engagement freeze before you can move off to Long Haul if that is what you wish. Of course as I said no one knows how this will pan out going forward. I would imagine though that the increased uptake of part time options to cope with the workload and the return of retirements post 2016 to the long term historical average will only aid matters.

Doug E Style

21st Nov 2016, 18:03

More like 3180-ish to 3430-ish. There are only about 250 ex-bmi guys (and girls) from the takeover in BA.

GS-Alpha

22nd Nov 2016, 08:55

It has been posted that some people are currently moving from short haul to long haul after about four years and it seems to be the assumtion that this will continue to be the same for anyone joing short haul in the future. At the same time, it has been posted that there are several hundred BMI pilots plus a further eight hundred new joiners between those people getting long haul positions now and any future joiners. Admittedly some of these pilots are already on long haul, but are we seriously suggesting nearly one thousand pilots will move from short haul to long haul over the next four years - just as a reduction in capacity has been announced in the five year plan? It does not add up.

VJW

22nd Nov 2016, 10:03

Should someone in the pool from Sept 2016 until March 2018 who has let BA know they'd accept SH or LH, be worried they might not get called at all? Nothing is certain I know, and having taken three attempts to pass I know I'm happy to be swimming, just wondering if i might actually need a forth attempt somewhere down the road...

basiljet

22nd Nov 2016, 11:04

Hi VJW, I'm worried about not being called at all also but hoping that if there is some positive movement in 2017 then there might be a chance. I am non typed and run out end of 2017. Seems there have been some sim checks after us so that is always positive. Guess we will be quite near the top of the list as non typed coming to end of next year so hope always alive!

Ea300

22nd Nov 2016, 11:15

Hi basiljet and VJW

I'm in the same position as you. Hold pool runs out end of 2017.

I guess it just depends on when the recruitment can "confirm the requirement for 2018" and start offering positions.

If anyone can give an estimation on this that would be great.

Would have to sink in the pool after waiting so long

basiljet

22nd Nov 2016, 11:36

Glad not to be the only one in this unsteady boat. I'm hoping if they start hiring again in 2017 then we should be ok but I have no idea of what/if/when etc. Hopefully the next few months will reveal more so then we can continue to hope or move on. Hoping for the former though.

bex88

22nd Nov 2016, 11:43

GS Alpha. No that's not what is being suggested. Most of the BMI numbers are either Captains or have moved to LH. Some still remain as P2 SH but very few. Of the guys after the BMI lot a good number are DEP onto LH. Work on 5 years for a move and you probably not going to be to disappointed.

Hold pool guys, once I have info on the internal bids for part time and how that affects things I'll put some info up. Until then though it did say A320 LHR/LGW - recruitment, and that's before any part time bids have been factored in. 2017 was always going to be a quieter year for recruitment so I would not worry at this time. Hope that helps

basiljet

22nd Nov 2016, 12:47

Thanks bex88 always nice to have some reassurance.

VJW

22nd Nov 2016, 15:02

Thanks from me too Bex.

Would be a shame for SH recruitment to open again, and hoover up more type rated guys over those of us swimming that are happy to go SH even though we're non type rated. If that happens I guess that's just how it goes though.

I'll keep treading :)

nrn

23rd Nov 2016, 08:02

I've flown with a Capt who talked to someone from recruitment... (I know..)

As far as he/she know everyone in the current holdpool will be offered a startdate at some point (albeit it might take some time).

Hopefully that puts your minds at ease a little

basiljet

23rd Nov 2016, 09:02

Hi nrn

Thanks very much any news that is positive is always welcome!

Mikehotel152

23rd Nov 2016, 09:21

BA have plenty of form on this I'm afraid.

Back in October 2011 I was interviewed, assessed and placed in a holding pool. Despite constant strong rumours about a complete freeze on recruitment, it wasn't until October 2012 that swimmers were informed that the pool was being closed.

I recall the same stories in 2008 or around that time. With Brexit and the general cyclical nature of the industry, I wouldn't be surprised if BA's growth ceases.

You cannot blame the recruitment team for the lack of information or clarity. I'm sure they're as frustrated as you are.

wiggy

23rd Nov 2016, 09:29

I think that's a fair comment MH152,

I've lost count of the number of DEP cycles I've seen since the late 80's. I think up until Spring it was all very rosy but then a combination of matters political and otherwise have put a break on things.

That said fingers crossed that anyone currently in the hold pool will get fished out before too long.

RexBanner

23rd Nov 2016, 19:19

The negativity is overblown IMHO (although this is pprune of course!). Recruitment has hardly ground to a halt, this upcoming year was always planned as a lull comparatively speaking because BA are only taking delivery of a single 787 in 2017. Granted this "lull" was still projected to be 170 people and that has halved to potentially 80 people by all accounts but remember, if you forget the last two years that's still a fair chunk. People are getting offers as I speak, I know a couple of them.

VJW

24th Nov 2016, 02:32

Thanks for the recent posts Rex, although I have to say a couple things. Firstly I don't think people recently are blaming the recruitment team for anything. I hope I haven't given that impression. Regarding being 'negative' this is only mildly the case due to an email all us swimmers got recently. Stating as you say the requirement for 2017 has been halved. It's understandable why we might be concerned by this, especially if you consider the hold pool time has been extended because of the same reason.

People might be getting offers, but I bet you they're all 320 rated - a point we've been trying to make.

bex88

27th Nov 2016, 20:27

LH down to 3500 on 777. Little movement on other fleets. Large number of bids below 3500 for LH but perhaps only 40 or so had valid bids. SH commands back at about 2000 so quick commands have gone. It does not look like there were lots of part time requests and the ones there were have not been granted.

Gloomy? No 2017 was always going to be slower. Perhaps no DEP LH but previously A320 was for recruitment and there does not seem to be any change to that. Last years bid results are exceptional not the norm.

That's my personal assessment not an official one but I hope it helps.

Ea300

27th Nov 2016, 22:33

Thank you bex88

In your opinion when do u think they can confirm the requirement for LH recruitment in 2018?

4468

27th Nov 2016, 23:47

Almost certainly, about a week before it's offered. (IF it's offered in 2017?) To be reviewed on a weekly basis!

Those that accept SH in the meantime, will always, always, always, ALWAYS be senior to people who'd rather wait.

Oh, did I say, in BA seniority is everything?

Ea300

28th Nov 2016, 08:55

I'm willing to accept LH or SH just concerned my pool will expire before I get the chance!

wiggy

28th Nov 2016, 09:55

I see from reading elsewhere there is also bad'ish news that the company seems to be a reluctant ( to say the least) to allow people to migrate onto the 72% or 58% Aspirational part Time contracts in the 2017 training year.

If that holds true it looks that avenue for creating vacancies has been closed off, at least for now.

Superpilot

28th Nov 2016, 10:10

Ea300, I read somewhere BA has increased hold pool time to 18 months (and maybe more). Maybe wiggy can clarify.

Jumbo2

28th Nov 2016, 11:08

Superpilot correct. The increased hold pool time has been communicated to the pilots in the hold pool. 18 months with the clock starting at the date you had your simulator assessment. The internal PRIAM results have been published last week with not a lot of internal movement planned for next year, but still a requirement for NEP's.

Ea300

28th Nov 2016, 12:36

It is correct that the holdpool has been extended to 18 months as I am in that position. And I believe I'm near to the top. As a non 320 rated pilot my hopes rely on a course being offered early 2018. And of course being offered a SH position if it happened sooner.

To sink in the pool would be absolutely gutting at this stage.

cessnapete

29th Nov 2016, 10:58

Apparently now an excess of A380 F/Os, after recruiting and training them this year!
8 perhaps to be posted to other fleets. Bit of a waste of money/planning??

RexBanner

29th Nov 2016, 11:02

Plans change. A320 Commands for a few of the A380 P2's didn't materialise as expected.

Shaka Zulu

1st Dec 2016, 08:40

Yep so it is. I was meant to be on the last course this year from 777 to 380 but cancelled one week before course start due to situation above. No movement off the 380 and now 8 in surplus.
Things change quickly!
Eternal struggle between fleet manpower planning and commercial decisions.

angelo26

2nd Dec 2016, 20:18

Hi all!

Anyone got a sim date for december?

Regards.

E170

3rd Dec 2016, 19:05

Yes.
Will be there on Tuesday

basiljet

3rd Dec 2016, 21:38

Are you guys rated or part of the non rated long haul campaign? Asking just to see my chances later in 2017.

E170

9th Dec 2016, 13:23

I am A320 rated and applied for the SH.
Just received the mail, that I am in the DEP Hold Pool.

Are there any recent experiences how long it can take for rated Pilots SH to get an offer?

Mizar

9th Dec 2016, 13:40

off topic question
Anyone knows if BA is providing its pilots with a flight case.

wiggy

9th Dec 2016, 13:43

No they don't.........I have a vague recollection that they used to provide one as a present upon the successful completion of your command upgrade but those days have long gone. Before anyone asks there's no company provided free crew suitcase either...

VJW

9th Dec 2016, 13:46

E170- congrats to you & welcome to the pool. I'd say being type rated you'll jump above the majority of us for a SH position in mid 2017, while us non type rated already swimming for a LH/SH position wait until 2018 if we're lucky. Feel free to PM me if/when you get called.

Many congrats again.

4468

9th Dec 2016, 23:38

Nor do BA provide a free pair of Raybans. (which they did when I joined!)

back to Boeing

10th Dec 2016, 06:53

You even have to buy your own Torch for walk arounds at night. Get one that takes AA batteries

Ea300

10th Dec 2016, 09:37

Does anyone know what aircraft ba are expecting in 2018?

Fire and brimstone

10th Dec 2016, 13:48

So glad BA are recruiting.

If they take type rated / experienced pilots from other airlines, this is sure to drive up T&C's at the 'feeder' airlines - unless they are happy to lose lots of highly trained professional guys and girls.

Expect good pay deals this year everyone.

Horray!!

Fire and brimstone

10th Dec 2016, 14:24

John

Why would an employer want people to leave, when they have to train more replacements??

What is the logic behind T&C's not improving when you are struggling to retain pilots?

Surely the 'grass can REALLY be that much greener at BA' ....... can it??

VJW

10th Dec 2016, 14:46

Fire and Brimstone are you joking with your posts?

Think maybe you need to do some research. I'm a Capt with RYR waiting in BA's hold pool for a two stripe FO position. That should tell you all you need to know. Perhaps you aren't aware that RYR makes PROFIT using it's training department doing initial cadet type ratings etc.

JaxofMarlow

10th Dec 2016, 14:50

I think F and B a quick check on any one of hundreds of Norwegian/RYR/EJ/WOW/Wizz threads on here over the last few years will tell you why sadly JS is right. Welcome back JS - good to know you are still keeping tabs on us.

wiggy

10th Dec 2016, 15:56

So glad BA are recruiting.....

If they take type rated / experienced pilots from other airlines....Expect good pay deals this year everyone..

F&B

If you read recent posts again you'll see it looks like 2015 and 16 were the peak of current recruitment into BA.....recruitment is down in 17.

If the "feeders" were going to use pay to combat the loss of trained personnel the pay rises would have already happened.

Pork chop express

10th Dec 2016, 20:45

Surely the 'grass can REALLY be that much greener at BA' ....... can it??

I'd be really realistic about your expectations on what you expect by joining BA if that's indeed your plan or anyone else reading this, there are many good things about BA for sure but the holy grail it is not! BA is a lifestyle more than any other airline I've worked for and not always in a good way especially with family and the disruption being away can cause. It offers Security for sure..... probably one of the best in the UK but we are definitely preparing for one of aviation's cyclical downturns. You can see the plans are changing all the time internally around recruitment for 2017 and bids on SH Commands which have not materialised even for quite senior guys n girls! Opec cutting oil output to drive up the cost of fuel.....

Add in a new CEO from a low cost background obsessed with Easy & especially Norwegian and whose quoted internally that staff costs need to be adjusted to "Market rate" at some point during his tenure you can expect more change at BA over the next few years as the race to the bottom continues in this industry, BA have further to fall than most so have your eyes wide open that you wont be immune to all of this at BA! Sad but true..... I joined from a well known bucket and spade carrier that hit hard times and was very grateful to join BA don't get me wrong, that said i'd go back in a heartbeat if i could for the better home lifestyle it offered my personal circumstances and believe some have done just that very recently!

tommytailwind

11th Dec 2016, 15:09

Pork chop express - I couldn't agree more with you. As a joiner in 2016 coming from a Loco background I second your views entirely. BA is a great place to come to if you're in your 20s with no family commitments but for those of more advanced years think twice. The lifestyle on offer in terms of time off at home probably isn't as good as many other places. Sad but true.

E170

11th Dec 2016, 16:03

@VJW: thank you.
okay, so there are more non-rated pilots in the pool than rated?
for how long are you waiting?
what informations did you get regarding the time to wait?

Tricia Takanawa

11th Dec 2016, 16:36

I would agree with the above. I understand that BA's seniority system means that things will only get better, but as someone who joined past mid 20's with family, I have found out that BA 'ain't all that'.

My rosters are less fatiguing than the job I left in the sandpit, and afford me more time off. However perpetual blind lines are worse than the bidding system I left, meaning most weekends at work.

This along with a near 50% pay cut, 20 years to the left hand seat of a wide body (for lifestyle and large pay difference when compared to SH) and constant talk of doom, gloom and cost cutting means that I wouldn't make the same decision again if I had the chance. I'm finding myself looking at flight job pages and careers websites already, when this used to be the proverbial job for life.

Enzo999

11th Dec 2016, 19:09

Interesting to read so many comments from people who feel exactly the same as me. I made a choice to leave my last employer based on a feeling they would go bankrupt this year as it turns out my feeling was wrong and I have spent everyday regretting my decision.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing massively wrong with BA, but there is very little right either. The people are nice and the feeling of job security is lovely. But the rosters are terrible, especially if you have a family that you are interested in spending any time with. Time to command seems to have spiralled again and the money is average at best.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but had I known how things have panned out I would never have left my previous job. Everyone has to make their own decisions but my advice is if you are happy in your current job, have a family and are the wrong side of 30, then think long and hard.

basiljet

11th Dec 2016, 21:51

Hi E170

As far as at least I am aware I will not get an offer till if I'm lucky end of 2017 all things staying as is now. Maybe none at all but I'm not rated. Very vague at the moment and am hoping for some improvement. Been in the pool 6 months so far.

G SXTY

13th Dec 2016, 20:14

Some interesting recent posts from fellow new joiners. I appreciate that we all have different situations and priorities, and that one man's oyster is another man's saucer of snot, but my experience FWIW...

After several years flying regional TPs for Exeter Airlines, and a couple of years in the Gulf, trying to avoid being shot at and/or falling asleep at the wheel, BA is pretty damn good. Not perfect, far from it, but I'm struggling to think of an airline I'd rather work for.

I'm very lucky, being long-haul, and I probably wouldn't be this cheery if I was on the minibus, but the quality of life is pretty good; rostering (and swapping) is a different world to the sandpit, and I haven't had so much usable free time since the good old days of Flybe's small bases. I'm forty-something, so more than double the age of some of our younger cabin crew, :{ which makes long haul command pretty unlikely. That said, there's more to life than 4 stripes, and I enjoy working for a company that generally treats me like a grown-up, with generally great colleagues and a very flat authority gradient. And then, of course, there's the job security. Nothing's ever guaranteed, but it's a lot better here than most other places.

For sure BA isn't the promised land, and if you're stuck on shorthaul with a young family and struggling to finance a mortgage in the South East, I can see how it ain't all that. However, it can be very good indeed, even for a new joiner - it just depends on your expectations and what you're used to. For me, it sure beats month after month of 4 & 6 days flying around in crappy weather, and it most certainly beats working in a country where the the same family are in charge of both regulator and airline... :ugh:

4468

13th Dec 2016, 22:56

Enzo999

14th Dec 2016, 08:58

Pork chop express, tommytailwind, Tricia Takanawa, and Enzo999.

I see that you are unhappy at BA, and would either like to move on, or regret leaving your previous employer, or both?

It might be useful for those here, waiting to join BA, if you tell them where you aspire to be now? I'm sure it would prevent them wasting their time in the hold pool, if you could give them the benefit of your experiences.

Alternatively, where did your 'due diligence' fail, prior to both applying, and then committing to BA?

Rather than telling them what's 'wrong' with BA, how much more helpful to just say where the entirety is better?

No problem!

Monarch! 2 sector days, at least 2 weekends off a month, guarantied days off if you wanted/needed them, quite winters maybe 4/5 flights a month, no obscenely complicated rostering system, rock soild schedualing agreement (can't start work before 8.30am after a day off and must be clear by 8pm the day before), see my family everyday, money was the same, £450 day off working payment (which because of the day off protection meant you always got 2), command potential in the next couple of years, lovely people, small enough to know everyone, regularly flew with and spoke to CP, DFO etc, No 5 day trips, no holding for 20 minutes every time you wanted to come to home base, parked right outside the office, cabin crew that actually spoke to you, Procedures that actually work, a training department that realise there is more to flying than constantly saying TDODAR, FNC, PPP, and NUTA, free from arrogance. At this moment that's all I can't think of, I will be sure to update you if anything else comes to mind.

I think I already explained my reasons for leaving, Monarch recently had well publicised financial problems and in my wisdom I decided they would not make it so decided to jump before the end came. Looking back I got this wrong, my decision was heavily influenced by my previous experience of working for a large failed company and the fact I have young family that now depend on me earning a living. Having worked in the ME, I am absolute sure I never want to go back there so I made the "safe" choice and joined the one company that can offer job security based in the U.K.

Not living under a cloud of uncertainty is defiantly a highlight of working for BA but there is no point in me coming on here and saying that it's amazing because it's simply not (what job is though) but it is a secure job and for that I am very grateful. I am not for one second saying people should not come to BA, simply that it's not the holly grail, it has lots of failings and people should be fully aware of that before making a decision and don't be blinded by the name. At the end of the day everyone has to decide what's important to them, family, command, money, time at home, time away, big planes, small planes, weekends off, security etc etc only the indivudual can make that choice all I am doing is providing my own personal opinions and experiences.

RexBanner

14th Dec 2016, 09:25

Enzo999

14th Dec 2016, 09:40

Enzo I think what 4468 is getting at us that for prospective pilots Monarch isn't really an option though is it? As you've alluded to, job security. Monarch pilots will find themselves fortunate if their company is still here this time next year let alone in five. As for the cabin crew not speaking to you, I've had no problem with that whatsoever since I've been here, indeed some of the x rated stuff that gets sent to me by mixed fleet girls after having spoken to them just once would put your eyes on stalks. Never had any problems getting on with the legacy lot either. Are you sure the blame doesn't lie elsewhere on that one?

I am happy to take the blame on that one! Once again I have never said don't join, I simply said everyone must decide what's important to them and look at all the facts. I don't want to come across as some miserable old git because that's not the case and on most occasions I do enjoy going to work, even though I miss my family when I do. Really all I am trying to get across is that the grass is not always greener and if you are sat close to a command or have one at Easy/Ryan/Mon then maybe your future would be better served staying because SH at BA might not be the answer you are looking for.

EMB-145LR

14th Dec 2016, 09:56

I think the key to having a positive experience in joining BA is about managing expectations. I joined about 18 months ago and was overwhelmingly excited to finally be getting my 'dream job'. Has it proven to be so? Not always, no. But it's still a heck of a lot better than anywhere I've worked at in the past. The negatives are mainly a series of little niggling issues rather than anything big.

Negatives first; this is a big, soulless organisation. The people I work with are generally great (there is of course the odd exception, as with any company). However, chances are you won't fly with them again for a long time. Cabin crew change almost every sector, every two at best, so it's very hard to build any sort of camaraderie. On a multi sector day I find that can be particularly trying. I've done a few four sector days where I've had three different crews. You are very much just a number here. But the anonymity that brings can be a good thing!

'Cost cutting', 'tough trading environments', and the threat of Norwegian are constantly being rammed down our throats by management, all while the company is making £1bil+ profits. That starts to grate after a while. Pay is no longer industry leading, although it is still competitive in Europe. We are lagging behind what our American colleagues make in the US though

So far my experience of training has been a bit hit and miss. Our initial type rating was with CTC and we were constantly being told by our (mainly easyJet) trainers that the BA SOPs are hopeless. The result is that at times, even after 18 months I still feel like I'm often having to learn the BA way from the manuals, which are not particularly easy to navigate! The BA trainers are generally good, although there are one or two who are slightly harder work. Myself and the rest of my new joiner course all agree that in BA you often end up doubting your previous experience at other airlines, which can be rather disconcerting. I never used to be nervous going into the sim at my other airlines, but for some reason at BA I am. That being said, as an FO you are treated as more of a Captain in training and the gradient of command is much less apparent than at other airlines. I find I am constantly learning something new here.

The bidding process is overly complex, but this is due to change in 2018. At the moment the whole process takes about three weeks, and just when you think you've got what you wanted, you get roster assigned a trip over the only days you bid off. However, once final rosters are released your schedule is set in stone and the company don't touch it. If you get to learn Bidline Rules and how to swap properly, you actually end up with an awful lot of control over your life. I'm on the small Airbus and am yet to fly my original roster. I prefer day trips and swap for these with relative ease to the extent that I have only done 17 nights away from home in 2016. The only three day trips I've done have been standovers with a day off down route, and both of those have been out of choice when I've taken my wife or friends with me. I'm a season ticket holder at a very substandard football club and I've only missed one home game since I joined BA, and that was because I was skiing, not because of the company! There is no doubt that the schedules can be tiring, especially the increasingly common four sector day trips, but the control I have over my roster is excellent. The high level of work is also offset by very regular leave. With four weeks of leave and two additional duty free weeks I find I am never too far away from another extended stretch off. In fact, as I sit here writing this I'm on my 31st day of no flying in a row (One week of leave with wrap days, one duty free week, some fortuitous trading and now a very quiet reserve period).

BA don't offer a cosy or personal environment in which to work, but they offer stability, job security and reasonable pay. My pay is always on time. I can interact with the company as little or as much as I'd like. When I get home, they generally leave me alone. They were excellent and very accommodating earlier this year when I had to have an extended period off for surgery.

The thing that gets to me most at BA is the endless complexity of even the simplest tasks. Rules are chopped and changed and approvals are needed from several middle managers, often just to get something as simple as a new set of wings for your blazer. The corporate structure can be infuriating at times. This spills over into the flying which is EXTREMELY procedural when compared to other airlines. It feels like your freedom to actually fly the aircraft is somewhat restricted. However, in such a big organisation this standardisation is a necessary evil and you won't often fly with anyone that doesn't do it properly via the SOPs. That can be a positive at times, but I do miss hand flying a visual on a beautifully clear day.

BA is what you make of it. It's lonely, impersonal, at times infuriating, procedural and vast. It's also secure, varied, flexible, often very interesting and generally well paid (although Paypoint 34 isn't ideal).

At the end of the day, I see my family a lot more now than I ever used to, I enjoy good staff travel and fly with some great people to interesting places, staying in generally decent hotels. I'm content on short haul, but that's just my personality.

Join with your eyes wide open and I think you'll be fine.

RexBanner

14th Dec 2016, 10:00

But short haul at BA is a short term thing unless you're after a specific long haul fleet. It's not the best gig in town but then it's far from as bad as is made out on here. For instance I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times this year I've sat in the bowels of T5 waiting for my next flight, yet some posters on here would have you believe it's all that ever happens on a day to day basis! Similar with force assign, it's never happened to me.

Now either I'm being incredibly fortunate or some of the stories on here are exaggerations. I have however been credit protected on a couple of trips that were needed for training and given some extra unexpected days off. I've been rostered on a blind line to finish two days early before a three week leave block and cleared Heathrow at 10 o clock - in the morning - on the last rostered day. Something that NEVER would have been countenanced by the planners let alone allowed at a previous outfit I worked for. There are some real pluses here and that bypasses the pprune negativity brigade.

I was very close to beginning the command process at easy. I left because, although the money is great in the left hand seat at easyJet, it's Groundhog Day for the next thirty years if you take your command there and then it's golden handcuffs if (when!) you get bored of it. There's more to life than money and I feel that if you can get yourself onto long haul at BA and go part time (admittedly not the easiest thing to do right now but hopefully behind the scenes this is being addressed) then there's precious little better places you're going to find yourself. Short term pain, long term gain.

Enzo999

14th Dec 2016, 10:08

Good post, although we have a wildly different experience of bidding, I did 14 nights away in November alone (and that was with a preference for day trips selected), also I have worked every weekend since September (leave excluded) so I have no idea how you have watched so many football matches. Maybe I don't understand the system properly and if I took the time to really figure it out my roster might improve, but honestly it's more complicated than the aircraft!

Enzo999

14th Dec 2016, 10:24

I agree there is too much negativity on here but then again we are pilots so what else would you expect. Obviously for your own personal reasons leaving was the correct thing to do and I am pleased you happy at BA but there are people like me that have flown LH before and have no desire to do it again. So for us the golden carrot of BA does not exist and all we are left with is command on SH. If that's going to take 10 years again maybe you can see why I feel slightly negative.

EMB-145LR

14th Dec 2016, 11:06

The key is swapping, Enzo. I'm almost obsessive about monitoring open time to the extent that I get a sick little thrill out of it!

Regarding commands, I'm not sure 10 years to a short haul command is accurate. 2017 was always going to be very quiet, things will pick up again in 2018 and there are still plenty of guys with no interest in SH at BA.

tommytailwind

14th Dec 2016, 11:22

I'm more than happy to answer your question 4468.

Like the others, I do not wish to be negative and certainly don't wish to discourage anyone from applying to or accepting a position with BA. They are a very professional organisation and in many aspects a pleasure to deal with. From recruitment through joining, type rating, line training and online almost everyone has been incredibly friendly, accommodating and professional.

I cannot think of anywhere else I'd truly recommend anyone else to be rather than at BA, but like the other guys / girls who have commented above, everyone has different expectations and different things float different peoples' boats, as it were.

I see a lot less of my family now because whereas before I was doing day trips I'm now doing longhaul and am away approx 10 to 15 nights away per month if I have a month with no annual leave. Add into that around 5 to 6 nights a month of sleep lost due to night flying plus 24 hour layovers in the likes of JFK, BOS, YYZ etc and without doubt I feel more tired than I ever did in my last job. Others may not find that tiring and I don't wish to put anyone off but personally, I find it somewhat exhausting. Getting adequate rest downroute is easier for some than others.

The endless complexity of bidding and then trying to swap trips is what some call 'flexible' and offers 'control' over their life but my personal experience is that is just adds uncertainty over one's life that I didn't have before in my last job.

I gave up my command - my choice of course - and I haven't enjoyed being back in the right seat but others may find this left back to right move perfectly acceptable. For me, getting my head around some archaic SOPs has been tricky and not made easier by those in the left seat at times, but maybe that's just me. Too long at my last company probably.

LHR is a pain compared to the regional airports I've previously been based at where you can park your car and be reporting for duty within 5 mins, and delays departing and arriving are minimal whereas I am often late going into or out of LHR.

As has been alluded to, the complexity of simple tasks like needing a new tie clip is just crazy. You can order one, but it has to be picked up in a 3 day window otherwise the order is cancelled and the process has to start again. What if that 3 day window is on days off or annual leave? I'd never advocate resigning or questioning one's decision to join a company based on such a small issue but it's just an example of how things work in BA.

Ultimately I just miss my 2 or 4 sector simple days, easy car parking, my command, my previous salary, seeing my family every day, hand flying a visual into Faro or whenever one likes if appropriate, zero night flying and a simple rostering system.

If you're based abroad, say in the ME and want to come home, BA would be like a dream. If you're an FO at a LoCo carrier and fancy long haul or a long career at BA, it's the job for you. If you're stuck on turbo props and want to fly jets without forking out for a type rating, BA is a brilliant opportunity.

For me, I joined too late in my career (10+ years in) and miss my old lifestyle. Absolutely horses for courses and some will love it, some won't. All I suggest is that if you're in the left seat of a decent carrier and you're happy, think twice about coming to BA as it may well not offer you a better life. For anyone else, go for it as for most people it's probably the best career airline out there in Europe for new joiners.

4468

14th Dec 2016, 12:11

Hi guys

Very grateful for the balanced replies. They are more like the kind of assessment I would expect. Which basically is that, for anyone wishing to fly entirely SH for the rest of their career, BA SH probably isn't the greatest. If you want to travel in to work every day, and be home every night, (rather than visiting some of the world's great cities) don't come to BA. If you value your LHS, rather than job security, don't come to BA.

Is BA the greatest flying job in the world? Where is???? That definitely wouldn't be an airline job anyway! Is it the best paid job in the world? No, you can go fly for non-unionised airlines in the ME, if you'd like that! Or Chapter 11 protected US carriers if you have the necessary right to work for them, and have a decade or so in which to try to join!

The great news for tommytailwind is that, for anyone for whom LH just isn't working, then unlike Virgin, you ALWAYS retain the option of bidding for SH. You would also have significant seniority/control once there too!

BA isn't what it used to be! On that 'bombshell' we can all agree. But that change hasn't happened in isolation. It is no more than a reflection of the world in which we now live. Get used to it, or find an alternative career that hasn't similarly changed!

It is what it is!

What I will say is this. No carrier in the UK offers a greater range of work-life choices than BA. If you can't find one that suits you, then the problem may not actually lie with the employer??

One quick question if I may? What is stopping some of you guys flying your beloved hand flown visuals into Faro etc? VERY recently, I would say 75-80% of my approaches in BA were hand flown.

tommytailwind

14th Dec 2016, 12:18

4468 - what you write is spot on. BA has had to change in order to compete in the modern world. If it had stood still it would have been swallowed up. No complaints at all - it's just not the golden ticket it once might have been.

The only thing stopping me flying visuals into Faro etc is on the 747 we don't go into Faro too often :ok:

4468

14th Dec 2016, 12:27

Incidentally EMB-145LR
Our initial type rating was with CTC and we were constantly being told by our (mainly easyJet) trainers that the BA SOPs are hopeless.
That kind of ignorant, and unprofessional behaviour from CTC trainers, definitely needs feeding back to BA.

Thanks.

Perhaps this gentleman might be interested?
As the business moves into its next phase of international growth and diversity, CTC Aviation has appointed former Head of Short Haul for British Airways – Robin Glover-Faure – to the position of Vice President, Airline Training.

Tommytailwind

When was the last time you flew a good weather approach into a US airfield, and they didn't offer you a visual?

RexBanner

14th Dec 2016, 14:51

I'm really sorry and I don't wish to be "that guy" but come on, needing a new tie clip is complicated? I rocked up to Gatwick uniform stores on my way up to Heathrow with my ID, no appointment, said I'd lost mine and I needed a new one. A drawer opened and two seconds later I was presented with my new tie clip. Are we sure we're not over complicating things here?

VJW

14th Dec 2016, 15:36

Most of us just hoping we have the option to make this decision having passed everything and swimming in the pool..

EF1S

14th Dec 2016, 16:20

4468/EMB Try LGW.

I bid, I get (Just over 12 months in the company), No 5 day tours, nowhere near as many cabin crew swaps (single fleet), 3 night stops (All UK), No crazy bidding system just a simple preferences system...

Usually home within an hour of chocks on too.

tommytailwind

14th Dec 2016, 18:08

I really don't want to be dragged into a debate. The uniform stores at LGW (along with a number of other things at LGW) work way better than life at LHR. I'm just passing on my experiences, that's all. As I mentioned, a tie clip matter is trivial in terms of a career decision and maybe I picked a bad example.

As for visuals in the US - sure. But there are visuals and there are visuals. Visuals offered on base leg in dual RW ops with traffic everywhere compared to being cleared for a visual 30 miles out are a different story in terms of fun factor. As I said, horses for courses and for some BA life is great.

bex88

14th Dec 2016, 19:50

BA is a simple beast. You work the system as best you can to your advantage. You make your choices and deal with it. I work pretty much every weekend and take blind lines. My choice, I work a little less and use every trick I can to maximise my time off etc. I could have had LH or been close to the top of the FO SH list and chose my work but I took LHS and the positives and negatives with that.

I come to work do the best job I can and go home. The company gives my family a good income and when I have needed their support for a personal problem they have been fantastic. Training is very good but you only get out what you put in. BA is impersonal and that's good when I want it to be. I can however pick up the phone to ops and ask for a favour for a favour and it's then quite personal. Win win.

What's crap? Loads if you enter into conversation with some. I don't get involved (although for some reason I read this) and I am much happier for it.

Is BA the dream ticket? Not for me but the dream ticket nearly went bust, the good gig did go bust and the one that reliably pays but demands a lot from me is BA. Maybe that says something

As for the manual flying etc. You can do what you like just remember the standard caveat applies "don't F&£k it up"

Pork chop express

14th Dec 2016, 20:13

I think there is a very balanced view above from my original post a page back. I didn't expect it to provoke such a reaction! For me i stand by what i wrote, at no point did i advise don't join just come in with your eyes wide open about what it is you want BA to be.
For me there was no Due Diligence as i was getting made redundant and needed a job! I always knew BA would be very hard for me due to the time away regardless of SH / LH as i have young children and a son with special needs so home life for me is hard at the best of times. I am also the wrong side of 40 which is not an ideal age to join BA, again this is my personal situation. I can totally see someone in their 20's / 30's with no children would perhaps have no issues at all.

I find LH pretty exhausting compared to 2 sector days due to the night flying and not being someone who can fall asleep anywhere! I would describe it as feeling like i have mild permanent flu most of the time unless i have a good 4 or 5 days off. Again this can be a very personal thing but i know many that feel the same.

That said i was and still am glad to have got into BA given the alternative was redundancy or forced part-time and for the security it offers.
The lifestyle that Monarch offered me over BA was better (for me personally) and was for others i know. I wanted to point out to those that may have rose tinted glasses that BA is not perfect .....but where is.

The differential between BA and other airlines is getting slimmer all the time why else would they have to go to the ME / Far East to get the numbers they needed. As stated above they cannot stand still and will no doubt continue to lower terms to compete, i think this contributes to the lowish morale within BA as the realisation that cost cutting will continue and things will be squeezed further.
To conclude join with realistic expectations, accept it will take time to settle especially if coming from a smaller company, you do feel more of a number at BA but i have also had great support from BA when i needed it with my son they really were great if you have a genuine problem...
You will be away from home and for me that is the biggest factor and i miss the lifestyle of being home most nights, I have had many conversations with guys who admit when they were 25 BA was brill now they are married and have children its a different job and if they could get out they would!
I have found almost everyone i've flown with at BA to be just like everyone else at my previous airlines, great guys and good fun.
If i could go back to Monarch how it was i'd go tomorrow ......but hey life doesn't always give us what we want! :{

bex88

14th Dec 2016, 20:41

Pork chop express- agree with you. If only I could have added security to my perfect job. A imperfect world.

Sounds like you know where fleet team is and they can be your biggest friend. I have always found BA have had the attitude of "what can we do for you" during times of difficulty at home. We are big enough as a group to look after those who need to support family due to accident, illness, injury or special needs etc. Often it just needs us to put our hands up and ask.

I would echo your points. BA is hugely unfair but it's not the fault of the company. It's alright but I have told a few friends who are LHS at other airlines not to come as they will regret it in the short to medium term.

4468

14th Dec 2016, 20:59

The really great news for those here not happy with BA, is that one look at this Terms and Endearment section, show a number of other airlines are recruiting.

I imagine those in the pool won't be too disappointed with the prospect of a few more vacancies at BA, after folks move on to a better option.

Mr Angry from Purley

15th Dec 2016, 01:56

EMB145
I'm a season ticket holder at a very substandard football club
CPFC I hope?!!:\

3Greens

15th Dec 2016, 08:02

Are you seriously grieving for monarch? A company that nearly went bust several times? And whilst I agree the work there may have been a lot less and "suited" your lifestyle; maybe, just maybe, the inability, or slow pace of change there has something to do with it's likely demise.
I've been in BA 17 years and I too wish I could go back to the workload on the 757 in 2000. 500 hours per year and a nice mix on LH&SH. Times change and companies adapt or die; I don't particularly like it either, but maybe in your case nostalgia is rose tinted?.
The trick in BA is to peddle on that hamster wheel for 20 odd years and not stress the crap you can't change, then hop off and enjoy your pension.(what's left of it).

3Greens

15th Dec 2016, 10:01

I know it's hard to believe, but senior people joined at the bottom once too you know. Remember 9/11? Life as a bottom feeder wasn't a bed of roses as a new joiner then believe me.
If you don't like it that much in BA then why not rejoin your previous outfits? Or did you burn bridges there perhaps by whinging how you want this mythical dream job?

midnight cruiser

15th Dec 2016, 10:13

I met a chap who was on the same Ryanair induction course as an ex BA co pilot. More than one in the pipeline too, apparently, and not just retreads.

JaxofMarlow

15th Dec 2016, 11:56

Have to confess that JS post strikes a chord. Whilst most of this discussion has been conducted in a mature professional manner, every now and then the BA arrogance poked its head above the parapet. Are BA SOPs really so good everyone else has to admire them? If CTC trainers think they are crap maybe, just maybe, they are !

The main points made are that BA may well for many be the best gig in town but for some it is not the holly grail. This is reflected above but none of the posters are hinting that they plan to depart.

RexBanner

15th Dec 2016, 12:53

JaxofMarlow I've spent a couple of years now listening to that guy (now firmly in the ignore list) denigrate everything about this industry (this goes back well before I got to BA). When he left aviation I thought that would be the end of it and we were spared his rubbish but no, he has continued to come back to pprune making more and more comments, which are purely intended to get people's backs up (and could never be construed as anything else) before I finally reacted to it.

Go back and look at some of his comments on the role of pilots and the nature of our job (and some in this very thread) before you judge the context of my remarks. Enlighteningly enough you'll find I'm far from the only person to have reacted to him and I almost feel like I've failed the test and given him the reaction he craves because of that but a forum for professional pilots should be above the kind of childish trolling that he exhibits.

Anyway, back to the topic of BA recruitment I feel.

ATTCS armed

15th Dec 2016, 12:55

Is BA the 'holy grail'? No.

Is it the best gig in the UK at the moment? Only person taking the leap can know. I am in BA, have been for 10 years. The first 18 months I wondered what I had done! After about 8 years I got used to it and sure enough, I now think it is great. (Bottom 20% of my current status)

Dont stress at what you can't change. Expect to be in the RHS for at least 10 years. Enjoy the lifestyle.

If you expect either a quick command, to be home every night, or to be anything other than a number, you will be disappointed. If on the other hand you are prepared to work hard and be happy to leave the complete mess that LHR is behind you when you leave the car park, then you will survive it.

One thing is for sure, this industry isn't what it used to be.

JaxofMarlow

15th Dec 2016, 13:13

ATTCS..... It is the 10 years to command that causes most concern when you already have 10 years under your belt.

bex88

15th Dec 2016, 13:58

I think you have to work on it being 10-12 years for LHS. Last year was abnormal and a large number got early commands on SH. I don't think it will be repeated like it was because all those new commands will have a 5 year freeze. Retirements are not in any significant number and the fleet growth is fairly flat over the next 4-5 years.

The grass is greener at BA it's just our brown patches are in different places. A friend of mine is a captain at a LOCO and he is happy with his deal. Yes there are issues which are different from BA but he earns a better salary and is home each night. He decided BA was not for him and he is probably right. As for me I have learnt the skill of ignorant bliss and I feel fortunate to fly for BA with all its rights and wrongs. If you take it back to basics the job that pays fairly/well or "market rate" and continues to do so is a good one.

tommytailwind

15th Dec 2016, 15:33

Jax - just to let you know I do plan to depart. Will be rejoining my old outfit in the spring. No complaints at all about BA. It was my choice to give up my command and go to BA. It was a gamble and I haven't enjoyed it. Have no grumbles whatsoever about anyone in the company or gripes about SOPs and the like. It's BA's train set so who am I to question it? Over and out from me.

Edited to add that no one I met in the company has been arrogant - contrary to some posts on here. Training was top notch, very fair and relaxed.

4468

15th Dec 2016, 17:52

Tommytailwind

Great post!

I am genuinely pleased that folks can come and take a look at what BA is like ON THE INSIDE! Then go back to their previous employer. My best friend in life did exactly that, and I understand his reasons for returning to the big orange! Everyone's happy! Even the person able to move into his vacancy!

Lot's of comments I could address here, but hey the warm beer, open fire and (non flying!!) friends are calling!

One thing I won't accept though is this. People paid by a customer to teach new joiners the customer's SOPs are unprofessional if they are calling their customer's SOPs, rubbish! They are also speaking from a position of ignorance if they've never used those same procedures in anger.

There's no more wrong with BA's SOP's than are wrong with anyone else's.

That unprofessional and ignorant behaviour definitely needs feeding back to the customer. So thanks for that.

Aviation is a cyclical business. Seven years traditionally from peak to peak. Trough to trough. (With other factors in the meantime!) Make sure you're standing by a good chair when the music stops!!!!

Icanseeclearly

15th Dec 2016, 19:55

Everyone is looking for different things and BA may not be for everyone, I am ex military and ex loco captain / training captain and TRE and personally I enjoy BA, I joined 2 years ago at 46 and am a commuter on the minibus fleet, I get one of my top 10 choices every month and get on average 12 days a month at home (in EDI) that said I do bid for llong tours.

I believe that you could pilots in a pub with free beer and free lap dancing (or whatever our female colleagues would prefer!) and as a workforce we would complain as we want lager not bitter and blondes not brunettes...., it's human nature to always think the grass is greener elsewhere.

As an aside I was one of the first to go through CTC, on one occasion the instruction was so bad we (my sim partner and I) stopped the sim ( wrong technique for an EFATO being taught combined with an extremely aggressive attitude for the instructor) he had also spent most of the time slagging off BA and their SOPs so some people may have a bit of a chip on their shoulder.

EMB-145LR

15th Dec 2016, 19:59

I'm glad I'm not the only one that experienced this! I was starting to wonder whether it was just me! I reported it to BA at the time and they said they would speak to CTC. I never heard anything back in that regard.

SinBin

16th Dec 2016, 12:14

For me, joined 6 years ago on the 320, far and away best airline I've worked for in terms of work/life balance (worked at two others), now occupy the left seat, have done for 18 months, and still enjoying it! Europe in the summer is fabulous! But then again I'm a positive chap! I do fly with "moaners", who generally just have a negative view on life. BA is NOT a nirvana, how could it be? Nowhere is, but it is better than anywhere else, with so much choice on offer! It's a career job.

As an aside, I'm on blindlines as I'm 88% from the bottom of the C320 list, at stage 1, had the last 3 weekends off, do bugger all flying (50 hours a month). Swapping is easy, as long as you've something to offer the other person.

Twiglet1

16th Dec 2016, 15:11

How does it work with Easyjet Trainers at CTC then. Surely they must be ex Easyjet TRE's.

average-punter

16th Dec 2016, 15:44

They are generally self-employed consultants as I understand it. Certainly a few guys at my airline are "BA checked" and teach BA pilots at CTC. I flew with one a few weeks ago who said they are also required to go through a standards check with a BA trainer before being let loose at CTC, presumably to avoid situations like EMB describes.

Icanseecearly: Good for you, I would have walked out too - far too many people are putting up with sub-standard instruction at CTC.

Stocious

16th Dec 2016, 19:34

I see it's the senior ones who are jumping on here questioning how anyone could be underwhelmed by life at the bottom in BA; the self same who enjoy FS pensions, pp24, high seniority, etc etc... Almost indignant.

Been in two years, BARP, PP34.

Never missed an important family occasion, earn good money, rarely fly at night, home almost every evening and I'm on a run of 11 weekends off in a row.

Not sure about sounding indignant, but I am certainly happier with my life now than I was before joining BA!

clearofconflict

17th Dec 2016, 07:43

I have to echo Stocious. Been in just over 2 years, right place right time and now I'm LHS Airbus. Home pretty much every night and being paid 30% more than my previous LHS role. Can't complain, with at least two weekends off a month.

Enzo999

17th Dec 2016, 09:50

I doubt anyone else will get that lucky, it's no wonder your happy but realisiticly people joining now are not going to have the same experiences as you!

4468

17th Dec 2016, 10:21

I've no doubt, that's precisely what stocious would have been told 2 years ago too!

Just as easy to say, don't join Monarch, as the future's not bright!

Any 'prediction' in this business, is no more than a guess.

Enzo999

17th Dec 2016, 10:32

The African Dude

17th Dec 2016, 15:07

For the comments from before that said "If you're based abroad, say in the ME and want to come home, BA would be like a dream." I would just like to say that the wanting to come home bit would be the important part. In Dubai at least, car parking and bus is not of any consequence (chauffeur drive both ways) and the money is excellent despite what's trotted out elsewhere on this forum :) the truth is that everything is a compromise indeed, and the culture may not suit everyone. As an expat I feel much more at home here than I do in the UK. It's simply a matter of what's important to you.

no sponsor

17th Dec 2016, 18:19

Excellent post African Dude. As a BA pilot, I like it at BA, but I do fly with some pretty miserable people, who moan quite a lot (and not just the ex-BMI folks!).

I hated my last airline, some people loved it. Personally I'd rather look at the sun through a pair of binoculars than fly for the Arabs. But some folks love it.

Bloated Stomach

17th Dec 2016, 19:01

no sponsor - Do you have a problem with the Arab airlines or the Arab people?

no sponsor

17th Dec 2016, 20:26

Bloated Stomach, that's not really relevant to this thread, however, having spent many years in the Middle East, I prefer the hard won employment rights and judicial rights we enjoy in European airlines which are absent in those countries.

RexBanner

17th Dec 2016, 20:52

I see what your saying and predicting along time in to the future is pointless. But it is fairly clear that for at lest the next few years recruitment will be a fraction of what it has been over the previous, meaning movement up the lists will be much slower so weekend work, nights away and slow command times are a fact of life for any new joiner. Anyone joining 2 or 3 years ago was joining at the begging of a massive wave of recruitment so I doubt they were told the same thing.

Enzo I think you're somewhat overstating the case of a trickle of recruitment. Recruitment was always plannned to slow down in 2017. You've basically discounted the fact that retirements stopped for ten years in 2006. They're now going to return to normal and make no mistake there is a bulge. Add to that the fact that many senior guys are also preparing their notice because they can't go part time. I think the non award of part time is part of a company strategy to rid itself of a few of the PP24's out there.

It (recruitment) may not be 350+ (and certainly not this year) but it's not going to be a trickle either. There's only 100 or so people joining the company this year but bear in mind that ALL of those people are going to be on the airbus, meaning that all existing A320 P2's will move up the list 15-20% by this time next year. That's not far off what this year's new joiners on the airbus achieved in 2016, because this year there were significant numbers onto other fleets too.

Yes us Airbus P2's won't be moving up the Master Seniority List as fast but what ultimately matters to your quality of lifestyle in the short term is your seniority in your seat/fleet.

4468

17th Dec 2016, 21:20

And of course nobody knows how JSS (the new rostering system) will work out, or how that will affect the 'satisfaction gradient'.

And I DO mean, NOBODY!

Aspiration_Station

8th Jan 2017, 13:57

Anyone have an upcoming sim assessment in January?

Smokie

8th Jan 2017, 20:49

Has recruitment opened again? Did I miss something?

VJW

9th Jan 2017, 07:51

I'd guess there are still people trickling through- probably all 320 rated and about to jump over people who've been in the pool 8 months ;)

FACoff

9th Jan 2017, 08:29

Definitely slowed down a lot this year though. I'm 320 rated and have been told to expect to hear nothing until late 2017/early 2018.

Saab0409

9th Jan 2017, 10:03

Indeed might be some rated folks being assessed. Maybe anyone can shed some light on the recent intake of sim candidates. Still hopeful on a phone call sooner than later, seeing as my sim buddy is starting in 3 weeks (though he is rated 320...) Fingers crossed!

Dupre

9th Jan 2017, 14:42

As I understand, the January sim assessments are for the final few candidates from the interviews held in 2016. Unfortunately I have no idea when recruitment will start again.

Good luck to those heading to the sim this month!

FoxChaRomeo

9th Jan 2017, 15:29

Definitely slowed down a lot this year though. I'm 320 rated and have been told to expect to hear nothing until late 2017/early 2018.

... Maybe anyone can shed some light on the recent intake of sim candidates. Still hopeful on a phone call sooner than later, seeing as my sim buddy is starting in 3 weeks (though he is rated 320...) Fingers crossed!

Chaps/chapettes,
Just for context around where I might sit in the scheme of things, when did you do your sim assessments? Saab0409, did you come through the long haul recruitment campaign this time last year, or through the short haul that started mid-year last year?

FACoff - when/from whom did you hear that? I've literally had nothing official since the congratulations email, and have only gleaned from others that start dates for rated swimmers might be around July.

Cheers.

thetimesreader84

9th Jan 2017, 17:56

I belly flopped into the pool just before Christmas. Since then, despite asking BA recruitment where I stand, no idea when or if I'll get the call. All they would say is "we've met our recruitment requirements for 2017 with cadets and DEP rated. If you haven't been called in 12 months, we'll give you another 6 months. If nothing after that, we'll discuss your options". Not the most confidence inspiring!

For record, Bus rated, applied on the initial non rated recruitment in 2015, put on hold for a few months as I (at that time) didn't meet the criteria for LH. Sim check was December 2016.

Jwscud

9th Jan 2017, 18:49

Latest internal rumour is some form of recruitment to restart - whether that is assessments for those already going through the system, FPP or new additions I don't know.

The source for this is one of the recruitment guys I met in the sim not too long ago.

FACoff

9th Jan 2017, 23:02

Chaps/chapettes,
FACoff - when/from whom did you hear that? I've literally had nothing official since the congratulations email, and have only gleaned from others that start dates for rated swimmers might be around July.

I was told late 2017 from recruitment directly (unless there was a "considerable change" in their intake plan). A chap not far behind me said he'd been told early 2018. That said I've only been in the pool since mid November, so even for the 320 I'd expect to be well down the list.

Frankly though if BA's recruitment department bears even the slightest similarity to that of my current airline then their requirements will change more than my Mrs before a night out. Fingers crossed it's sooner rather than later.

GOS

16th Jan 2017, 17:45

Everyone else in the pool get the email this evening? Pretty gutted truth be told.

Saab0409

16th Jan 2017, 18:28

Yep, got it as well. Went from master caution to master warning light. My end of hold pool, even with the 18 month extension, only barely reaches October. Seeing as I did my sim early last year... So fingers are definitely crossed.

basiljet

16th Jan 2017, 18:40

Me too. Hoping it's just sort of confirmation of the last email but with more clarity. Anyone else looking to go elsewhere. Think I will have to dust off the cv and start applying just in case. Hope they know about 2018 within the next 6 months.

shabon

16th Jan 2017, 19:37

just out of interest guys what did the email say regarding BA's recruitment plans?

Callsign Kilo

16th Jan 2017, 20:03

I feel for you guys

It all sounds quite familiar. I was in the pool in 2011 and it was extended from 12 to 18 months after the bmi takeover was announced. The goal posts moved considerably during that time as PP34 replaced PP24 and seniority numbers changed massively after the bmi guys were TUPE'd in (their first round of FPP cadets also entered the list around this time too). Me & around 70 others sank however, unexpectedly and in complete contrast to forecast coming from BA, recruitment re-opened a little over a year later. Those who were in the pool had to go through selection again and quite a few are now flying for BA! I moved on elsewhere and I believe I'm better for it.

I hope it works out for everyone. I know how you feel, however BA isn't the be all and end all; as much as it may seem to be at the present time.

Love_joy

17th Jan 2017, 10:06

Does anyone know if you need to have started with them before hold pool expiry, or simply received an offer/contract?

Callsign Kilo

17th Jan 2017, 10:24

Offer of a course date

VJW

17th Jan 2017, 12:34

Got the email too. I'm not really that worried, then again I expire in March 2018. To be honest, I'd be shocked if people ahead of me sink in the pool, just for the sake of a couple extra months. The email confirmed what I thought based on their last one- no jobs really until 2018. I do find it funny though that the FPP cadets will join to the 320 no problem this year. People with zero hours who'll get the same T&C's as myself (I could be mistaken) and others on joining, are of more 'value' to the company than someone bringing thousands of hours of experience.

However, having taken 3 attempts to jump into the pool, I'd rather be in it, than having to think about a 4th go at it :)

EMB-145LR

17th Jan 2017, 14:40

The FPPs are on a reduced salary, starting on about £30k I think. BA have also invested a lot in them, so it makes sense that they would want to get them flying as soon as there is a need.

E170

17th Jan 2017, 15:03

Could anybody please clarify what the EMail stated?
Are you NonRated and for how long have you been in the pool?
I did not receive any mail so far.

Thanks a lot for your help

Mizar

17th Jan 2017, 17:50

The FPPs are on a reduced salary, starting on about £30k I think. BA have also invested a lot in them, so it makes sense that they would want to get them flying as soon as there is a need.
EMB 145 How much would be again the DEP salary at the bottom?

EMB-145LR

17th Jan 2017, 22:31

EMB 145 How much would be again the DEP salary at the bottom?

At the moment I think it's just over £55k.

wiggy

18th Jan 2017, 06:27

VJW

I do find it funny though that the FPP cadets will join to the 320 no problem this year. People with zero hours who'll get the same T&C's as myself (I could be mistaken) and others on joining, are of more 'value' to the company than someone bringing thousands of hours of experience.

I'm afraid if you think previous experience counts for much in your early days in BA you are going to be sadly disappointed, you're seen as just another mouth to feed/number on a list by management once you hit the line. OTOH there's no doubt experience might help down the road if you can get to the interview stage for something such as training (but see my final para). As others have pointed out BA have already invested in the FPPs.

(FWIW back in the day I joined BA as an X,000 hour "trainer" and even 3-4 years later didn't even have the seniority to get an interview for a training position on the fleet I was on....seniority in company really is everything.)

VJW

18th Jan 2017, 12:55

Not sure my comment was interpreted correctly. I was obviously mistaken and that FPP's T&C's are less than those of DEP's. My point was had that not been the case, it would be strange if BA preferred a cadet...That's be confirmed by EMB that that isn't the case.

Won't stop me using my experience that 'doesn't count for much'- when actually on the line with BA.

polepilot

18th Jan 2017, 17:10

Am i right in saying that 2018 is busier for recuitment due to deliveries of A350's, some neos and 787's? And i guess the 18 months in the pool cannot be extended?

thetimesreader84

19th Jan 2017, 09:54

I still haven't had this email. A good sign?

Would anyone care to give me the contents? PM if necessary.

Cheers.

VJW

19th Jan 2017, 11:55

thetimesreader84 When did you pass the SIM and are you 320 rated? I'd check my junk folder before thinking it was a good sign.

thetimesreader84

19th Jan 2017, 13:35

Yes, bus rated, and passed the sim in December.

Trust me, my in box, out box, junk mail have all been constantly refreshed ever since the sim, no joy.

wiggy

19th Jan 2017, 13:45

VJW

Won't stop me using my experience that 'doesn't count for much'- when actually on the line with BA.

No criticism intended, I promise you people on the line won't have a problem with experience, you've just got to get past the recruitment process which is driven mainly by the accountants.....who regard experience as "unaccountable."

Good luck, hope it all works out for you.

VJW

19th Jan 2017, 15:12

thetimesreader84 I'd say you're too early in the pool to get the email update, but being bus rated you might be someone they are planning on still calling for 2017. From what they sent me it appears there are currently no more positions SH or LH in 2017. I'd assume that means all offers for DEP have already been made. I could be wrong, but I'd give up refreshing your email, they'll get in touch when they need us.

thetimesreader84

19th Jan 2017, 16:33

VJW,

Thanks for that. I'm trying to take any positives I can at the moment to be honest. I'd hate to have to go back to the start of the process again. In the absence of any more info from BA I'll settle in for a long wait...

EMB-145LR

19th Jan 2017, 17:15

The latest Chief Pilot update released today confirmed that the last few DEPs for 2017 are either now onboard or have confirmed course dates in the next month or so. The rest of our 2017 intake will be FPPs. No mention of how 2018 is shaping up, however, 2017 was always going to be quiet. Long haul expansion picks up again next year.

4468

19th Jan 2017, 19:34

Long haul expansion picks up again next year.
"Expansion"?

On what basis?

EMB-145LR

19th Jan 2017, 19:52

Depends on who you ask. Some are saying that the further 787s provide future expansion. The A350s are deferred, but will eventually replace the 747s.

E170

22nd Jan 2017, 11:04

@EMB-145LR
thank you very much for sharing your information from the Chief Pilot. May I ask you where you get these details from?
I am in the exact same situation as thetimesreader. Would be interesting, wether all their DEP candidates have already been contacted or they are still getting in touch with us?
Planning the DEP Dates and scheduling specific candidates are two separate stories. Aren´t they?

EMB-145LR

22nd Jan 2017, 12:08

No problem, E170. The Chief Pilots release a Flight Ops video update on the company intranet most weeks, all of this info is from the most recent one of those.

My understanding is that all those that are scheduled for courses this year have already been contacted. It's a good to remember that things are always very fluid though, and extra courses may be added as plans changes. It's hard to tell with BA, the plan changes constantly.

polepilot

22nd Jan 2017, 12:15

When you speak of a350 aircraft being deferred does that mean none for 2018?
British Airways pares fleet plan, seeks job cuts | Business Standard News (http://www.business-standard.com/article/international/british-airways-pares-fleet-plan-seeks-job-cuts-116110500018_1.html)
looking at this article cant say I am to confident about getting a call.......

Heathrow09L

22nd Jan 2017, 14:34

Seems like Mr Cruz is rapidly changing BA into a low cost carrier, I guess bringing in a CEO from a low cost outfit is soon rubbing into BA which is a shame.

RexBanner

22nd Jan 2017, 14:59

I'd just like to add here that nothing has actually been confirmed about the deferrals.

bex88

23rd Jan 2017, 07:38

Pole pilot. That's a good article and confirms suspicion on the line. It has been felt for a while that BA was in danger of over recruiting. I think we have over recruited and I would support this by saying look at the CAP levels. Never has it been so low but then again in the last 5 years we have been so very short of pilots so perhaps this is a reflection of what normal crewing levels should look like during the winter program. The change from FPA to flying pay is no coincidence either. Everywhere you look BA is being trimmed down and modernisation is being attempted. It is only pilot recruitment and mixed fleet cabin crew which has continued and that's probably because we were so short. My reserve months in the past were so busy you never saw home but recently I was calling BA and asking to fly only to be told "sorry we don't have anything" The real indications will come in the summer, if we see CAP return to normal levels of 88 rather than the current 72 then recruitment will have had it spot on.

What needs to be kept in mind is that recruitment over the last two years has been exceptional not normal and it would be expected to slow significantly.

Deferred aircraft? The cleaners said so and they know first. They told me we own our 747's and the cost per seat kilometre was significantly less with fuel prices as they are forecast to remain in the period 2017-20. The deferral of orders is in response to weakening of yield on the Atlantic and in Europe and this is the response so that shareholder dividends can see a return of 10-12%. Adding to that of the recent raise of the base rate by the FED capital is also becoming more expensive reducing the efficiency savings of the newer aircraft. To say I was surprised to be having such a conversation from the most reliable source in BA was a understatement.

A340Yumyum

28th Jan 2017, 15:57

Our CAP (777) is norm + 2hours in Mar?

bex88

28th Jan 2017, 20:22

CAP - 8.24 A320 P1 and -6.24 A320 P2. When does the summer schedule start?

wiggy

28th Jan 2017, 20:43

The cleaners said so and they know first. They told me we own our 747's

Minor point but the cleaners info might be out of date! I believe the rumour might have been true for the old Classics back in the day but certainly a lot of the 744s used to carry a nice shiney plate riveted to the flightdeck wall structure saying which bank ( often a Japanese one) was financing the airframe, though I guess there's a chance that arrangement has changed.

In any event whatever the truth of the above I do agree with the comments about CAP and (over) recruiting.

In BA AFAIK the "summer season" usually kicks in when the clocks change...i.e. usually the last weekend in March..in any event .you can usually tell by the amount of deadheading in the lines....

bex88

29th Jan 2017, 15:13

Wiggy, I DH each month at least once recently. April will show us more but I think the evidence shows we are in surplus unless the recruitment has been front loaded so captains can be allowed off to LH later in the year.

Dairyground

29th Jan 2017, 19:23

Quote:
The cleaners said so and they know first. They told me we own our 747's
Minor point but the cleaners info might be out of date! I believe the rumour might have been true for the old Classics back in the day but certainly a lot of the 744s used to carry a nice shiney plate riveted to the flightdeck wall structure saying which bank ( often a Japanese one) was financing the airframe, though I guess there's a chance that arrangement has changed.

According to the most recent BA annual report (for year ending December 2015) there were 40 747-400 on the Balance Sheet as fixed assets and none on operating leases. So it looks like BA own them all.

wiggy

29th Jan 2017, 20:04

Thank's, Out of interest I wonder if they've taken the bankers plates off?

back to Boeing

29th Jan 2017, 20:25

Thank's, Out of interest I wonder if they've taken the bankers plates off?

No they haven't.

Phantom4

1st Feb 2017, 15:25

No more sim checks till November,current situation.

basiljet

1st Feb 2017, 19:48

That's quite good news then....could maybe mean they will start offering courses to those in the pool for 2018 before November.

3Greens

3rd Feb 2017, 08:49

One thing is for certain, BA do t have the ability to plan for the remainder of the week, let alone the year ahead. You can guarantee they will cock the numbers up by trying to be too tight; the. We will see the floodgates open on recruitment once more. Retirements have started again after a 10year pause.

Jumbo2

3rd Feb 2017, 13:20

The retirements have started indeed, not that many though for the next few years, having said that a fairly large number of pilots have put in for par-time which might cause some extra recruitment.

In 2018 the 5 year engagement freeze for those recruited onto the baby bus at the beginning of the previous recruitment bubble is over. Is it fair to presume most recruitment from now on will be for shorthaul vacancies?

wiggy

3rd Feb 2017, 13:25

Yes Jumbo2 I gather that the retirement numbers are perhaps not as high as some have hoped for..or as some predicted (guilty):\ . There's also I think the sticky issue of the company for some mysterious reason :oh: being slow to honour requests for some of the part time contracts.

PilotJames

22nd Feb 2017, 19:36

Any news from the inside or otherwise?

Stocious

22nd Feb 2017, 19:42

May be opening again 2nd half of year. Nothing else.

FACoff

22nd Feb 2017, 23:00

Opening recruitment again? Aren't there 100+ twiddling their thumbs in the pool already?

Stocious

22nd Feb 2017, 23:24

*shrug*

Just repeating what is on the yammer recruitment section!

VJW

23rd Feb 2017, 08:35

Well bearing in mind those of us in the pool who applied long haul were asked if we'd accept a shorthaul offer (to which I said yes); having recruitment open again can only be a good thing surely. Unless of course it's only for 320 type rated only and these people continue to jump above those of us in the pool that are non type rated.

WonderBus

23rd Feb 2017, 08:36

10+ 787s arriving next year and the 350s arriving in 2019. There's still not enough pilots for 2020 with high levels of recruitment apparently. Hopefully good news for those in the hold pool and those wishing to apply.*

*all based on yammer and flying with management.

Pork chop express

26th Feb 2017, 08:00

Yammer is an internal discussion forum / notice board for the whole company....

bex88

11th Mar 2017, 18:28

The latest from the lady who is in charge of all manpower and it's on this weeks flight ops video. "No DEP recruitment for the rest of this year" but she emphasises that's the current plan and is subject to change depending on many factors. The DEP pool is ready for next year.

I know it's not exactly what people want to hear but hopefully it helps keep people sane.

RexBanner

11th Mar 2017, 21:20

What I read into what was said Bex is that they won't be issuing any start dates to DEP's for the remainder of the year but those guys and girls in the pool will be first in line for jobs in 2018 (which is exactly what they have been told in recent updates). It's still entirely possible and/or probable that recruitment will open later in the year for the rest of the positions available in 2018.

bex88

12th Mar 2017, 07:40

yep that's as I understood it no DEP 2017 but pool for 2018.

Airbus38

13th Mar 2017, 02:29

No guarantees; that's the quick answer. But hopefully so!

Saab0409

13th Mar 2017, 06:33

Personally hoping for that scenario, seeing as my hold pool status is valid until the end of October for a call to start in January or February 2018. Fingers crossed and thanks for the update.

MikeAlpha320

13th Mar 2017, 11:07

Those expiring Autumn 17, are you 320 TR or going for LH positions out of interest?

Saab0409

13th Mar 2017, 19:44

Non 320, non rated on Boeing. Applied and swimming for LH, but happy to accept SH.

thetimesreader84

14th Mar 2017, 08:54

Does anyone know when the internal bidding process opens / closes, and the results are published? I'd guess that'd be a good indication of when the hold pool starts to drain, and if DEP opens up again.

Hotel Mode

14th Mar 2017, 09:12

Normally opens around July but results aren't out until Oct at the earliest these days.

PilotJames

14th Mar 2017, 12:13

But I should imagine the results are known internally with a fair amount of certainty before this date. Therefore requirements for SH/LH will be known and offers made accordingly.

Sbarker05

14th Mar 2017, 13:39

How do you join then and I can pilot the grob tutor

kcar

20th Mar 2017, 08:34

How has the new rostering system and EASA FTL effected a possible new joiner LH? I assume EASA has effected commuters or is that still possible? A couple of years ago I met some Canadians commuting but how is that working out now?

wiggy

20th Mar 2017, 08:42

The new roster system isn't in yet, though it's fair to say Bidline "as is" isn't Bidline "as was."......:{

As far as EASA goes people do still travel in from Europe and elsewhere but given it is harder now to "back to back" LH trips roster construction/manipulation through either bidding and/or swapping can be a bit more difficult.

back to Boeing

20th Mar 2017, 09:42

It's not at all harder to back to back. It's just that Lagos Abuja Accra Luanda Riyadh Jeddah and Kuwait have become significantly more senior trips

wiggy

20th Mar 2017, 09:49

Ok, maybe rather than "harder" I should have said just fewer attractive options to do so.:ok:

overstress

20th Mar 2017, 09:56

For those commuters who want to eat their cake and have it too? :E

wiggy

20th Mar 2017, 09:58

I'll admit it is one of my pet peeves about BA "shorthand" - doesn't everybody at LHR "commute" :E ??? , even if just from Windsor, Slough, Manchester, Edinburgh or beyond???.......I think the general loss of flexibility for everybody was a shame, but we are where we are....

overstress

20th Mar 2017, 10:09

Yes, it's always tickled me that in BA-speak "Do you commute?" means "Do you travel to work using public air transport?"

I wonder what all those other poor souls on the motorway as I drive to work are doing?

In other news, there is about to be some internal movement generated by the releasing of some part-time positions which had been denied. This will create about 35 MPE places, not enough to translate into external recruitment. Next year and the year after, things will ramp up again.

The current market has made thing very difficult for the postings & promotions team, variable part time, unknown retirement levels, network changing their minds on routes. The only sure way you know you are on a new fleet, or have joined, is when you put the gear lever to 'up' for the first time on the aircraft....

RexBanner

20th Mar 2017, 11:57

Next year and the year after, things will ramp up again.

2019 possibly but a recent conversation I was having with a member of the P&P team suggested 2018 may only be slightly less quiet than this year. I have to stress though that this is a rumour network after all and who knows? The only certainty is that all these plans change with the wind.

bex88

20th Mar 2017, 17:41

I did 640 hours last year......full time SH. Next month I have three days TASS. Tells a story

RexBanner

20th Mar 2017, 20:06

I've done marginally under 600 hours Bex! Full time P2 SH. Granted I've done a lot of reserve (half by choice and half those reserve periods were dead quiet) and three weeks of leave in peak summer. Still, low caps are fine by me.

FlyingSaucepan

20th Mar 2017, 20:22

I did 640 hours last year......full time SH. Next month I have three days TASS. Tells a story

TASS?

Is 650 the norm for BA SH guys? How about LH?

MikeAlpha320

20th Mar 2017, 20:22

2019 possibly but a recent conversation I was having with a member of the P&P team suggested 2018 may only be slightly less quiet than this year

Assuming that is the case (80 ish new joiners) I imagine quite a few expiring in the pool. Does anyone know the situation with that? Are we expected to fully reapply and go through all stages of selection again?

RexBanner

20th Mar 2017, 20:41

Again Mike don't worry too much about what I've written. That's one person's opinion, there'll be others who will tell you something completely different. I suppose if you do drown there's a chance you may have to resit the whole thing but I'm sure I've heard stories of people in the past who were fished out after drowning and administered the defibrillator (successfully). It depends what mood they're in and how badly they need people I suppose.

TASS is short for a time assignable duty. It's what you're allocated when you're on a blind line and they haven't been able to reach cap with your other rostered duties. It works like a contactable in easyJet, for those who don't know what that is you will be contacted by current ops by 18:00 local at the latest the day before with your duty. If you haven't heard from them put your feet up and have a beer the next day. The only problem is that they prefer to use Time Assignable people before reserve period holders for uncovered work in advance, so it is likely you'll get used. But you're only contactable the day before, not on the day. Hope that's explained it.

VJW

20th Mar 2017, 21:33

I know your intentions are good RexBanner, but I'm not sure who the second paragraph above is aimed at. Surely those in BA already know this and those of us sinking slowly in the pool don't really need to know this until we have, 'put the gear lever to up for the first time on a BA aircraft.'

Three attempts to finally pass BA selection, it'd be seriously frustrating to sink after 18 months. Not sure I'd give it a 4th go.

wiggy

20th Mar 2017, 21:48

TASS?

Is 650 the norm for BA SH guys? How about LH?

TASS - TBF to Rex the question was asked by Flyingsaucepan. ...: many ways of thinking about it, my take is it is pre nominated "days off" on your original roster that in reality can be converted into a duty later in the month by the company. Usually given to blindline holders at roster publication to buffer up the credited hours towards CAP or you get clobbered with it if you lose a trip during the month e.g due weather ( if example the LH cancellations last due eastern seaboard snow) you will become TASS, i.e. Available for duty for the days of the lost trip....lots of caveats however, that's the simple version.

Can't talk about SH but 650 sounds low for a Longhauler, I would have thought for most trip line holders it is more likely to be 750 plus on average and we certainly have more than a few bouncing off 900 hours.

thetimesreader84

20th Mar 2017, 22:13

While contributors have answered the "letter" of Saucepan's question as to what TASS means (and thanks very much too!), I think we were all hoping for more of a "spirited" answer - how does 640 hrs last year / 3 days TASS on this roster reflect current short haul crewing levels, and from looking at that (and a crystal ball, seaweed, runes or whatever you choose to gaze at) what can we divine about future crewing requirements?

I must admit to being baffled as to why BA would make you start your application from scratch again. You've proved yourself capable and willing to be an asset once, through what must be a costly process to administer, making people go through it again is only going to disenfranchise them, and cost BA time and money? Surely you would drain the pool before opening up any DEP again?

Airbus38

21st Mar 2017, 08:52

While contributors have answered the "letter" of Saucepan's question as to what TASS means (and thanks very much too!), I think we were all hoping for more of a "spirited" answer - how does 640 hrs last year / 3 days TASS on this roster reflect current short haul crewing levels, and from looking at that (and a crystal ball, seaweed, runes or whatever you choose to gaze at) what can we divine about future crewing requirements?

I think the implication is that the current crew complement aren't exactly working at capacity, on SH at least (probably at about 85% maybe?) and by extension that imminent recruitment on SH sounds unlikely. However, that is very much only the current state of play and subject to a whole raft of variables over the course of a couple of years; aircraft arriving in unconfirmed number, aircraft retiring, people retiring, changing fleets, upgrades, part-time, route changes and so on.

The African Dude

21st Mar 2017, 08:59

Slight tangent but, for folks being given part-time now, how long have they been waiting? It is pretty much impossible to say, or is there an average or fleet-specific waiting period? What would one be looking at if going on the list as a new joiner?

Jumbo2

21st Mar 2017, 09:24

Can't talk about SH but 650 sounds low for a Longhauler, I would have thought for most trip line holders it is more likely to be 750 plus on average and we certainly have more than a few bouncing off 900 hours.

Hi Wiggy, 650hrs sounds very low for a Shorthhauler as well. I presume it was a junior pilot on mainly blind lines (otherwise there wouldn't be any TASS either)

I've done around 800 hours on trip lines in the last 12 months. Just finishing a 7 day run today after which I have 2 days off.

wiggy

21st Mar 2017, 09:45

Yep I did scratch my head a bit but seeing as SH isn't my aisle........perhaps a better indication is what's CAP looking like at the moment.

''Twas always the choice: sit on a BL with relatively little choice, wth TASS but perhaps more time at home, or try for a Tripline, knowing you'll probably have more choice possibly more predictability but also fly more hours.....

Anyhow with JSS is this all going to be moot?

RexBanner

21st Mar 2017, 14:38

100% under 600 hours on shorthaul in the last year, March to March. I've double checked in the logbook. Obviously with the caveats that I mentioned. Mix of triplines, blind lines and reserve.

FoxChaRomeo

21st Mar 2017, 15:53

Doug E Style

21st Mar 2017, 16:29

100% under 600 hours on shorthaul in the last year, March to March. I've double checked in the logbook. Obviously with the caveats that I mentioned. Mix of triplines, blind lines and reserve.

I clocked 640 hours on 75% part time (A320) which would equate to about 850 hours full time. All trip lines. And two months off sick too!

Gordomac

21st Mar 2017, 18:20

Cripes, 1976, one year on the T1e..............100 hours..........yeah, one ton.......thought I was working hard and collected me tea allowance for doing endless 1630 hrs check in .Oh, those were the days my friends ! Bort, we bombed around at M0.86 and LHR-NCL was 28 minutres..........er, flying time.....!

Icanseeclearly

21st Mar 2017, 20:14

My experience..

Exactly 2 years in the company as a full time DEP A320 LHR - already at 50% on the seniority list.

I am a commuter from the frozen north (well Aberdeen) so bid for blocks of work to reduce time on bath road or brothers spare bedroom.

In 2016 - 11 months of trip lines (last was a blind line as too difficult to make CAP due leave / sim) included in this was 2 months of reserve.

Total hours flown 707 (least 17hrs in jan (reserve) most 78 in august.

Remember CAP is not flying hours, for example an Amman standover is worth over 12 hours CAP but only 10:30 actual flight hours, trips are inevitably worth more then day trips.

Nights in hotels downroute 73 - remember I bid for trips.
Nights in my own bed at home in Aberdeen - 152.

I don't do overtime but on the rare occasions I have tried have been unable to as there is very little available.

Are we correctly crewed? I don't know but I am enjoying life and working less than when in the military or flying turboprops. Not sure if that sheds any light on the recruitment situation

wiggy

21st Mar 2017, 21:09

[QUOTE]Total hours flown 707 ....

Are we correctly crewed?

I can tell you the management answer to that and it will have a 900 in it......

..Not sure if that sheds any light on the recruitment situation

I'd hate to say it but it does perhaps shows up the issues as to why some in the company don't like credited hours as a measure of work. Above all what you say doesn't paint a very promising picture regarding recruitment in the near future.

RexBanner

21st Mar 2017, 22:10

Taken from a management forum recently. Average 120 Pilots a year for the foreseeable. Some years will be more slack (like this year and possibly next) some will be busier. 2019/20 is the next big upcoming bulge of retirements.

FACoff

21st Mar 2017, 23:19

Am I correct in thinking that there are no more FPPs next year so whatever requirement there may be will at least come completely from the pool?

VJW

21st Mar 2017, 23:36

It's a shame they don't give us our position in the pool and updates as and when they do pluck people out just so we know the likelihood of getting a call. I know people who've been in since April 2016 and I'm in from Sept 16. So imagine there's not too many before April and perhaps a few hundred maybe between them and myself. So not looking great really I don't think.

RexBanner

22nd Mar 2017, 07:03

VJW from what I gathered there's nowhere near that many in the hold pool, the estimate was 60ish. I would hate to jinx anything but - if that's the case - I struggle to envisage a scenario where anyone left in the pool who hasn't gone elsewhere wouldn't get an offer for 2018.

(P.S I love the way we all seem to be suffering Stockholm syndrome here and questioning that because we are having some semblance of a lifestyle at the moment it must be because we are overcrewed! To the complete contrary I would suggest that it's probably because we are correctly crewed at the moment. 93 Hours Cap and getting flogged to death is not the indication of correct crewing levels even if it is/was the norm!)

polepilot

22nd Mar 2017, 09:42

"no further hiring for 2017 other than FPP cadets. 2018 mainly from current holdpool" quoted from British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways) however i have no idea how trustworthy this site is and who indeed updates it!

FoxChaRomeo

22nd Mar 2017, 21:47

That's essentially what we were told in a hold pool update email in January.

VJW from what I gathered there's nowhere near that many in the hold pool , the estimate was 60ish.

Colleague of a friend (yes, I know, it's tenuous, but this is a rumour site!) was told he was 40th in the hold pool overall, but 8th Airbus rated. I believe he did his sim in May '16. So I'd guess there are a fair few more than 60, but hopefully substantially less than a few hundred, given that having done my sim in November '16, I'll be near the bottom...

FACoff

23rd Mar 2017, 01:11

Likewise, but your position is clearly more relevant to the rating you hold than your actual number in the pool (assuming the A320 is where most newbies are headed). Last I heard 70% of the pool weren't bus rated.

Trouble is all we can do is speculate (natural in this position of perpetual suspense I suppose) - I do hope BA appreciate this and throw us a bone now and then.

applecrumble

23rd Mar 2017, 11:58

The first offers for 2018 would be August/September to start Jan 18. We all knew that until then it would be quiet. The fact is that if at the moment SH is correctly crewed this does not mean in 2018 with new aircraft being delivered and more part time/commands that it will stay this way. At the moment people are looking at tea leaves.
The last communication from BA to the hold pool was that 2018 will be a busy year for recruitment on SH and LH. Even if they only take 120 guys that will be a large chunk of the hold pool.
As FACoff said, I hope that BA will update the members of the hold pool even if it doesn't contain anything we didn't already know.
On a side note, surely in this day and age of cost cutting the guys would be kept in the pool regardless.

2 Whites 2 Reds

23rd Mar 2017, 14:57

As an additional note to the discussion, the last few remaining 767's are due to leave the company towards the end of 2018. Depending on how the final wind down is managed, it'll release around 85 pilots to other fleets almost overnight. Just under half of which are in the RHS and although it's only a small ish number in the grand scheme of things, it will fill seats that would otherwise have gone to DEP's.

But that's the plan today and it's always subject to sudden change....

applecrumble

23rd Mar 2017, 19:30

2 Whites 2 Reds

24th Mar 2017, 10:57

On a side note, surely in this day and age of cost cutting the guys would be kept in the pool regardless.

Agreed. It's tough enough getting through it all once, let alone twice. A potentially easy win on someones cost code to extend the hold pool time frame.

RexBanner

24th Mar 2017, 13:21

I think there are a fair few more in the pool than 60. If you multiply that by three you are probably closer to the mark.

Well I'm only repeating what I was told by the current chief training pilot. However maybe he's not party to the exact figures.

thetimesreader84

24th Mar 2017, 13:58

60 Bus Rated / 180 total? The maths would almost fit with the chap further up the thread who claimed to be 40th in the queue overall, but 8th in the bus queue.

Sorry I don't have names / quotes, I'm on mobile.

FoxChaRomeo

24th Mar 2017, 14:10

and with FACOff who thought that 70% were non bus rated.

RexBanner - your source is seemingly well placed, so I shall hang on every word and hold you to it! ;)

applecrumble

25th Mar 2017, 09:29

The 767's retire late 2018. In early 2018 there are quite a few 787's delivered.
If the crewing levels are correct now then surely that would mean there has to be more guys taken on next year.
Someone needs to fly the new aircraft. Or after the shuffle the seats left on the A320.
That's not taking into consideration the retirements, part time requests, sickness etc

Right Engine

29th Mar 2017, 21:53

BA, having decided earlier this year that they would not be granting any more part time contracts have, through some wiley BALPA negotiation, reversed their decision. This means that probably after the summer season finishes, pilots will start to work anything down to approx 50% of their current flying commitment. This will obviously have some positive impact on the required recruitment numbers. But I wouldn't expect much momentum until it is agreed and enforced.

MikeAlpha320

30th Mar 2017, 20:56

Are we thinking part time is due to over-crewing or just a well negotiated deal by Balpa? Could be a double-edged sword.

applecrumble

31st Mar 2017, 10:44

Anyone got the answer to the above by Mikealpha
Surely as has been mentioned it's not over crewed, just crewed correctly.... at the moment.

binsleepen

31st Mar 2017, 15:45

Lots of full time guys and gals have been asking for part time for severals years but BA have refused due to the old part time contracts giving rise to large peaks and troughs in work coverage, which made crewing difficult. Also the large recruitment numbers over the last few years meant it was difficult to let people go part time as this would require even more recruitment.

The new BA/BALPA agreement allows for a new part time roster schedule that smooths out the peaks and troughs. This will allow all those who wanted the various part time options to get them and this should allow for more recruitment. So good news.

applecrumble

1st Apr 2017, 22:24

This sounds like good news for recruitment

applecrumble

3rd Apr 2017, 15:42

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways

Although, I don't like the sound of that. Not sure who updates pilot jobs network though.

VJW

3rd Apr 2017, 15:52

That says the same thing my BA hold pool email update did on 16/1/17.

Snapper5

5th Apr 2017, 12:36

First time I have gazed over this forum , what a very insightful and honest view on BA

An interesting thread - to which I'd like to add my view.

Joining BA is obviously no longer the clear cut decision that it used to be. Our managements eagerness to join the race to the bottom (and BALPA's willingness to help them) means that there is little left to differentiate BA from other airlines. To put it very bluntly, if you have an easy drive to work, like who you work with and enjoy what type of flying you do then don't bother coming here unless it's as a LH DEP and even that needs some consideration.

Sadly BA is very much 2 different airlines, LH and SH. On LH you'll get to fly a heavy jet around the world and will probably get 14-15 full days off at home every month. You'll have limited exposure to LHR and the M25. Not a bad job but God only knows what bidding system will be in use 18 months from now and as previously stated you will not be able to guarantee a single day off in any month unless you have leave. If you never want a SH command, be prepared to spend 20 years in the RHS.

SH is another matter altogether. You'll fly 800+ hours but will also spend as much time again on duty. Expect 10-11 days off a month with mostly only 1 or 2 days off at a time. There are 2,3,4 and 5 day tours - the majority with 3 sectors on the first and last day. Mid-tour 4 sector days with 3 aircraft changes and 4 sets of cabin crew are not unheard of. There are long airside turn rounds of up to 3.30hrs, spent in dirty, windowless airside canteens. The impact of EASA FTLs later in the year is a huge worry - 5/6/5 anyone? Also do not under estimate the frustration factor of working out of LHR. 20 minutes to get from the car park to T5, 20 minutes to taxy out, 10-15 minutes holding to get back in and then a long wait for the bus to take you back to the car park after work (up to 45 minutes after 10.30pm).

More importantly, BA is not a nice/happy place to work and the working/socialising relationship with cabin crew is unlike any other airline. There is still a great deal of bitterness and hatred from a number of CC (this was evident before the dispute too). Thankfully on SH there is a nice mix of EF, ex-BMI and MF so every now again you'll have an enjoyable night stop. There are some great guys/girls on the FD but be prepared for those with limited emotional intelligence who will moan about their crystallised APS pension and their property portfolio, whilst you're wondering how you'll ever get on the property ladder!

You'll never get a consensus from BA pilots about whether or not to join because our opinions very much depend on our fleet/ pay scale/ pension. However, it does not take a genius to realise that a senior pp24 744 Captain will have a very different lifestyle to a junior pp1 or 2 Airbus F/O and that lifestyle and level of remuneration has gone - no matter how much BA/BALPA promise jam tomorrow.

Finally, BA at the moment is all about the money. Everything boils down to cost and there is no care for the employees or the value that they can add to the company. If I had to make my choice again in today's climate I would not join - and I was a DEP on to LH!