BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Locked door]

Just to add balance to the doom mongers,

Most of the doom and gloom comes from long established BA pilots, who haven't experienced the outside world for a long time. In my role I meet a lot of fresh, recent joiners who are extremely aware that the 'unsustainable' roster pattern is significantly better than the one they have just left. Also once your roster is published its set in stone unless you agree to a change, no last minute shenanigans.

It's human nature that the people with the biggest gripes shout the loudest while those just getting on with it keep quiet. Yes you'll have to work hard in BA, but where don't you? Yes the seniority means you'll have less control initially but more later and we've all been there. I can count on one hand the number of days off I've 'needed' but failed to achieve, get good at using bidline and you'll usually achieve that one day. I've never been Gatwick based but have friends that are, they're not unhappy.

Come on in, the water's lovely!

LD

[RalphB2468]

Hi All,


I've always looked here but never posted.


I've booked a BA day 1 of testing next month. I Tried once in 2006 (and failed)


I'm currently a LTC with EZY having been there for 8 years, before that another operator on 737's/Turboprop. 7000+ hours etc. Have an itch about flying heavies, late 30's, kids, mortgage etc etc. Just a bit tired of LOCO and another 25+ potential years alarms me!!


Just wondering what people think about my applying and potentially leaving my cushy based, well paid, stable roster, choice of leave, none M25 commuting job. (I asked the wife but she just doesn't understand)!


Don't get me wrong I have my doubts about even passing Day 1 as I'm not exactly up to speed or savvy with Numerical/Verbal reasoning etc. The vibe I'm getting here from BA guys is not what I was expecting to be honest.


Thank you.

[Chief Brody]

I really enjoy working for them.

Nearly 7 years in with a fleet transfer approaching.

Served my time getting mediocre rosters but as others joined after me things got better .... as advertised. Thing that gets my blood pressure up is - if this thread stopped right now everything you need to know is in the public domain, the good, the bad and the ugly. Don't join and then say 'oh I thought it'd be like xyz'

BA is what you make of it - even the rare 3 hour hang around (which I too dislike). I handle it by going up into the terminal (ie away from said suicide inducing cafeteria) logging on to the free company wifi and watching an episode Game of Thrones or Mad Men whilst wearing my Bose headset in absolute tranquility.

Or I do all my crappy 'life admin' on the company's time - so my days off aren't full of "I must get round to ...."

I try and keep in perspective what I've heard on the rumour mill over the years vs what has then actually transpired. Eg hotel changes - Geneva doom and gloom (we moved from the Kempinski), you would have thought it was as if we'd just heard the three minute warning. As it turned out the Novotel has balconies, a free soft drink mini-bar, Xbox 360 (if that's your thing), big comfy bed, skin flaying power shower. Compared to Kempinski where a coffe costs 7 Swiss Francs and the rooms are tired old 'airline crew' rooms. This is an example of rumour vs what actually happened.

As per the pilot/cabin crew thing. I actually like not going out with cc! You have the same GroundHog Day conversation and spend the evening dancing round being polite, sizing up, being pc ... boring/tiring/monotonous. Don't get me wrong I've had some very funny evening and stand overs. In fact even with the nicest fd colleague, on a two nightstop tour I will only join him/her for drinks/dinner one night - I've been sat next to them joking/bantering/talking/ putting the world to rights all day after all.

Re the training. Generally very good. Learn early to play the game. Ask lots of open questions, get the others persons inpu before stating your own position, set gates (or better yet get your pal to set them), succinctly verbalise your thoughts/mental model (nobody ever said you had to be a mind reader to be a multi crew pilot). Let the BA way wash over you, don't fight it, once you do sim checks go much smoother.

I take the autopilot out every other day and hand fly it down from 10-20,000 ft. Sometimes with the birdy, sometimes not. Nobody bats an eyelid. My fd colleagues are almost universally good/fun/polite/interesting people. My Stage 2 iBid avoid list has 8 people on it (call that one person per year). And not all of them are spiteful - there's Mr Boring, Mr Its all about me, Mr Body Odour. Whatever people think of BAs selection process the people who get through seem to almost always get along and make the day fun, yes backgrounds differ, age differences, lifestyle choices, hobbies but most people just want to do the trip ASR free and blow the froth of a couple of cold ones.

Management. Most are politicians and should be viewed as such. And on the rare occasion they work-the-room in CRC assume that the moment they've gone back to their desks they will be plotting and scheming Blofelt style (minus the cat) - we're all grown ups and to assume otherwise, or for that matter any other company is any different is bordering on naive.

The salary is good and my wife and I (she works too, nothing airline related) have a lifestyle that people our age dont normally have. 4 bed house in the home counties, 2 normal cars (fiestas), eat out twice a month, go on city breaks, take two nice far flung holidays a year - sat in club or first normally. My take home pay is ~4700/month and that taking into account max pension contribution (barp) plus monthly AVCs. Somebody said to me near,y ten years ago "CB old boy, the golden age is over, but try not to get married too many times, drive normal cars, don't thirst for a Tag/Omega watch and if by age 45 (still a fair few years away) you can't live on 7k a month then it's you who've *****d up not the company you work for"

I still think there's a lot of truth in those words. True, this isn't the 50s and BA isn't PanAm dishing out free Ray Bans (although they use to) and Rolex's. I'm an airline pilot, that's it, no more, no less. I hopefully garner some respect from the people I encounter (cc, staff, pax) not based on my uniform but based on how I speak to them and or how I conduct myself/handle the situation at hand. That a wally occasionally says to me at a dinner party 'you're like a bus driver' doesn't irritate me a bit. People with brains know (at least on a basic level) that our job involves a lot more than pushing a big red button labelled 'Start.'

Re rosters/bidding ... I guess if you choose to live abroad and come in for trips (always seemed a bit of a ball ache to me) then new EASA rules mean that potentially there's a storm on the horizon. As for crazy 5/6/5 nonsense imho LHR logistically could not facilitate that - ground teams, holding, cleaning, taxying, physically swapping planes, cc swaps - I'm gonna go out on a limb and do a Paddy Ashdown.....
I bid about 2 hours above cap each month and this tends to keep me safe from forced assign - not ideal but it has so far worked for me. When I feel jaded I bid just above wiping level and accept a crappy shift will most likely still get added - nonetheless I will work below cap by a decent margin and have a more sedate month.

As for my outlook on the future. BA constitutes a portion of my life, let's call it a third. Wife,family,friends, interests, house projects the other two thirds. I think you'd be mad to grab a short haul command at the first opportunity as there is so much to explore within the BA framework. The wally:good person ratio if hugely in the latters favour.

Yes I like working for BA but I'm aware that like everything in life 'some fleas come with the dog'

CB

[Stocious]

Great post CB.

[Lead]

Very informative, thanks to the recent posters.

Do the company/CC recognise the lifestyle issues on SH? If so, is anything being done to address them?

[Juan Tugoh]

I think the company does recognise the issues but in fairness to them they are firefighting at the moment. The recent changes to EASA and many other things mean that flt ops are pedalling furiously just to keep up..

[Paolo]

Lovely post CB. and like you, its seems, are a massive fan of Jaws! I cant get enough of it, and can recite whole chunks of the film!

Favourite line... You're gonna need a bigger boat....

[THICKO]

It only took me 23 years to get a Command in BA (in 1995).....:)

[BASHLH]

Chief Brody posted...

"I think you'd be mad to grab a short haul command at the first opportunity as there is so much to explore within the BA framework".

I have to agree....

I've just been told that I have a LGW command in September after just over 4 years in the company... After a long Chat with the wife, friends & family I've decided to turn down the offer. Some reading my decision may think I'm mad but serveral reasons come into play...

The phrase 'only Bid for what you want' couldn't be more true in my case. The bid was put in May 14 before SH became as tough as it is becoming, at the time I would have grabbed it with open arms. That's not to say I hate SH but I don't want to commit to another 5 years when I need to give BA LH a go first.

By turning down a course normally you could expect a 5 year freeze on your current type, but a once in a lifetime offer has been granted to anyone who didn't originally get an 'OK' bid to be frozen till the end of the training year (Dec 31st). I'm frozen until then anyway for a change of type so won't affect my LH bid next year. Being completely honest I'didn't think it would get to my 'Juniority' so was no harm sticking the commedy bid in as it was all acheademic! I should have 'only bid for what I really wanted'! I won't make the same mistake in the future... You have to be happy to accept all the course you bid for! I hold my hands up, I made a mistake!

We moved half an hour up the M40 in Feb so driving to LGW 19-20 days a month would be a hard commute, yes there are a couple of layovers but not enough to make it regular. Again this wasn't quite the case last year & on the 737. Hopefully starting a family too so other priorities. When one day I do get a command I want & should give it 110%. Not worth getting cat C'd early on in your career, if not only for your personal pride.

Normally in any other company I would agree with the 'always take any command offered to you' but BA is different. I enjoy being an FO, obviously there's always a chain of Command but I really do feel part of the team at work. My sector is my sector & unless I'm wanting to do something crazy or dangerous 99% of Skippers let you get on with it. There is certainly no rush just to get to any Left seat opportunity! I'd say one of BA's best attributes when flying as an FO on the line. Makes the job easy!

But the biggest reason for me is this..... It would be great to have a command now but I'm at least 20 years from a LH command so staying SH for this amount of time scares the hell out of me... Not because I hate it but I think I would need a Change so the noggin doesn't freeze! Or the other option is to give up the Command which being Honnest with myself I don't think I'm strong enough to do!

The other elephant in the room is why has LGW Command gone so Junior.... There is always a reason & I think many are slowly waking up as to why... I'm not sure of all the reasons but the 3000 plus senior to me can't all be missing the point!

If your thinking about BA it is a great place to work! It's a great time to join & there is plenty of opportunities for everyone. Yes you may have to do 5 years on SH but that's not too bad considering most will probably have a 25-35 year career ahead of them. As I've said before it's not everyone's cup of tea but you can make it work for you. The job security is like no thrive ever experienced in other airlines... I accept LOCO's are also great in this respect! Yes it's not as good as it used to be but it's far better than my previous 2 companies even with the recent changes! Unfortunately some of my colleagues don't realise that. I do think the rate of change is a bit unhealthy but it's the same in all airlines.

Best of Luck to those who are applying!

Rgds BASHLH.

[wiggy]

BASHLH

Thanks for I think being quite brave in sharing your thoughts with us. As you rightly pointed out there are times when family and personal life is more important than bidding for command. Hope it works out for you.

Lead

Do the company/CC recognise the lifestyle issues on SH?

They are being made aware...despite that it seems from discussion elsewhere that there's a least one individual (Long hauler) who has recently discovered his roster has been massaged to the extent that it contains only three clear days at home in the whole of July. Certainly some have found that if you have a month fully available to the company (no leave/DFW) and are not an appointment holder then "cunning bidding" provides no protection whatever from a major roster rewrite and loss of desired day(s) off.

The rule set has changed forever. Hopefully recruitment ( that's where a lot of you guys come in) will reduce the scale of the problems some people are trying to cope with at the moment, but what we certainly won't see is a return to the status quo ante otherwise known as "Bidline".

[GS-Alpha]

Roster assign was the brainchild of at least one of our Canadian commuting BALPA guys (despite various unofficial polls being strongly against the idea). It was his belief that a pilot would have a bit more time to swap such a trip to a more suitable date when compared to the old forced draft, and therefore it was better. The thing is, EOT swapping is now so restrictive that it's nigh on impossible to swap that additional trip, and you haven't got any space left on your line to swap it to anyway! It does however mean that the company can now tell a pilot to go jump when they say they can't do the trip due to childcare, because they've had plenty of time to sort something. This means the company can rely on the work being covered using the system, and they can therefore run with far fewer pilots. In my opinion, roster assign is the equivalent detriment to BA pilots as all of the changes we've experienced in the last 15 years all added together!

[wiggy]

A question, do BA's 777 rated pilots also fly the 787, and if not, what is the reason?

No, apart from some (all?) of the trainers.

The reason generally given by those in the know is that it's down to costs/scheduling of any required differences course and then costs of maintaining recency and scheduling between the two. As a result the company believe that it's financially more efficient to run the fleets separately for the line guys, rather than combine. Once the 787 fleet is up to size it will be a significant fleet in it's own right so I guess the company POV may well be valid.

That said there has beeen a request for some of the 787 pilots with previous 777 time to come back to the 77 this summer due to workload on the fleet...not sure if they got any takers..

[Amigo South]

So in summary, BA is a great place to work if you have sufficient coping strategies in place - buy a Ford Fiesta, don't upgrade your Casio watch, enjoy your own company and join Netflix (because you'd rather be watching a movie on duty than be at home with your family). All TIC of course! However, these are not really unique selling points that are going to attract experienced professional pilots.


I agree completely with GS-Alpha's post above re: RA. The same group of commuting BALPA reps are currently busy trying to convince BA to get an alleviation to EASA FTLs regarding back-to-back trips. The price to pay for the rest of the community will be to allow BA to RA back-to-back trips. (My understanding is that reps cannot be RA'd). So once again, less chance of getting that 1 day off that you need.


Smooth Airperator - with regards to turning down courses, well I did it myself years ago so why not? It's a sellers market right now. One thing to remember though, is that BA can, have and will move people between fleets within their first 5 years. I have flown with F/Os who joined on the 777 only to be told on day 1 of groundschool that they were now going to the A320. Wherever you end up your first 5 years will race by and you'll still progress up the master seniority list. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Locked door]

I prefer Roster Assign to the old Forced Draft. As do most of the silent majority.

And I'm not Canadian!

It just goes to show we're all different.

LD

[Lead]

:ok: Feel better about joining now. Cheers guys!

[Widebdy]

3 or 4 excellent and detailed posts over the last 2 pages. Thank you guys very useful to get such insights.

It seems to me the short haul roster is the elephant in the room in terms of problems in the airline making SH an unhappy place with command getting very junior as people prefer to escape to LH. The short haul roster also seems to be the main stumbling point for potential would be applicants.! I gather many easyjet pilots won't touch BA primary due to the state of BA short haul operations (not the slower command).

But my question is, why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc. I struggle to see how unions can be solely to blame for aircraft changes and poorly constructed "slings" around Europe. Coming from a low cost background it screams out poor efficiency and poor crew/aircraft utilisation. All this means time on the ground, which normally means less money and less profit.

[wiggy]

why is short haul so disorganised? With all aircraft operating primarily out of one base I would have imagined it would be easy to be efficient. I don't understand why there are regular aircraft changes, cabin crew changes, long turnarounds etc.

How long have you got?

I think a lot of it is generally explained away down to the need to integrate Short Haul Ops with the Long Haul Stuff and the whys of wherefores of not being a point to point operation. Some would say there's no point in banging out 4 quick sectors for efficiencies sake that don't "fit" with the long haul programme, not sure that's true but certainly that's what's said.

IMHO many would agree the union's shouldn't completely carry the can for all of this... OTOH you mentioned the frequent Cabin Crew changes..well, less said :oh:

OTOH... then there's also the sheer built inefficency of operating out of LHR, holding, etc.....

Oh did I mention management's role in the above ..... :uhoh:

[FLCHG]

Smooth Airperator...

Pretty Ballsy what you posted. You have to make your own decision but this yarn might help you decide.

Going back a few years, but here goes:

1974, turns down a S/O position to await F/O position. Three weeks later the downturn hits all courses cancelled.... He was told as soon as hiring resumes he would be on course.

1978 "Remember Me"... "Yes, Sorry too old."

Laws changed re age discrimination, gets hired in 1985 as a S/O.... Retires as a LH wide body F/O rather than a LH wide body Captain. Pension could have been 30 years based on his best five years at Captains pay instead, maybe 20 based on F/O pay

Does not take a genius to figure out the financial and seniority loss.

PS.... He also took a 2 year layoff in the early 90's....

[sidtheesexist]

Locked door - I'm curious, but on what basis can you claim that the silent majority PREFER roster/force assign?! That s a pretty bold claim, particularly as the majority are silent. I ve been FAd 4 times and know plenty of others who ve been Fd over......:confused::\

[Megaton]

Absolutely, Sid, Roster Assign is definitely a backward step for me each and every month. Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare. In 10 years I've never been Force Assigned but every month the spectre of Roster Assign rears its head. Furthermore, with RA it is now almost impossible to guarantee a day off so everyone bids high, works harder, less time off etc etc etc. Not sure how Locked Door knows that the "silent majority" thinks if they're that silent.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

This is an interesting post, and some excellent information given by Chief Brody and Wiggy.

Its funny, since leaving education and spending 11 years working in industry doing so called 'normal jobs', BA is really no different from any other company I have ever worked for. They all want more for less, drive down the T's and C's over time and dont seem to have any regard for looking after its employees to motivate them. Sadly, like a lot of things in life, making as much money as possible seems to be the driving factor.

I joined BA from Bmi in 2012 with the IAG transition and have seen a lot of change in those 3 years. As much as I enjoyed Bmi, towards the end I was always looking over my shoulder wondering what Lufthansa were going to do next. I have found the job security element in BA to be refreshing and positive. Since I have been in BA there have been around 400 new joiners, DEP's onto long haul, and there are one hell of a lot of command courses going through at the moment, to which some of my old friends/colleagues from Bmi are being promoted. Its great to see the guys in the crew room with there new jackets!

I think there is a lot to be said for the opinions you will get from people in this thread. Guys, through no fault of their own, that have been in BA for 20 plus years, will certainly have a different outlook of what is good and what is bad, purely down to the fact is they do no know any different. Coming from a slightly different angle myself, I dont think it is a bad place to be. There is a lot of opportunity within the airline if you want it. Even though the company have put restrictions on our swapping system, I have found crewing to be flexible and helpful where they can to satisfy your requests. I was force assigned for the first time this month, but in all fairness its the first time I have been done in 12 months and am taking one for the team.

With regard to the CC, 9 times out of 10, I found them to be fine. I try and treat people as I wish to be treated, and the majority of the time the guys and gals to to be receptive to that. I found it quite amusing when I first joined the horror on peoples faces when I took the time to visit the back of the aircraft to introduce myself, it came across of not being the 'done thing'. Its been mentioned already, but a lot of time all the crews you fly with throughout the day are all doing different things, even within their own team, so night stops are often spent with your colleague, or on your own.

In a nutshell, I dont think BA is a bad place to be, however I am easily satisfied.

If you do decide to join, I hope you enjoy it.

[bex88]

From what I can see rostering is a mess. Guys are getting pulled off flight because they are hitting 900hrs or are out of the rolling 28day limit etc.

I thought I best check my yearly rolling total because I feel pretty tired and ground down........727 :eek: I think I will just continue to hide where I am in the hope that rostering don't find me anytime soon. PS....full time

10% ish of the p2 Airbus fleet were force assigned trips this month

[Skornogr4phy]

When I tried to apply on the website, it says the job offer is no longer open. Have I missed the window?

[glipglop]

When I tried to apply on the website, it says the job offer is no longer open. Have I missed the window?

Skornogr4phy, I believe the last extension was to the 24th of June. Sorry buddy!

[anson harris]

Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare

This may be a stupid question, but isn't it better to have at least a week's notice to arrange your childcare than no notice at all?

[wiggy]

Megaton

Final final rosters are so late that arranging childcare is a nightmare. In 10 years I've never been Force Assigned but every month the spectre of Roster Assign rears its head.

A common and I guess justified observation.

For those that don't know what some are complaining about: Under the new system for most fleets the July rosters were finally finalised :ooh: on or around the the 23rd/24th June. Until then anyone on a fulltime month with no pre-existing duties (e.g Sims) or leave/Duty Free Weeks in the month had absolutely zero visibility of their guaranteed days off in July.

isn't it better to have at least a week's notice to arrange your childcare than no notice at all?

Anson

The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.

[Narrow Runway]

Still, what ho, nothing ventured etc etc.

As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.

What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.

[GS-Alpha]

The biggest problem with the new system is that it enables BA to force overtime on a pilot even though they are already working above CAP. It basically prevents anyone from daring to try to have a bit of time off in one go. Yes you might be lucky and get away with it, but the likelihood is that you will not. Blind lines on long haul with the rules of a minimum of two days off between trips are basically gone, because they just build the roster according to that rule and then adjust it as they see fit once that rule no longer applies at the roster assign phase. Frankly, I don't even know why they bother to produce the final roster for blind line holders. Why tell someone what they could have had under the old system, only to take it away from them a few days later? I was force drafted a fair few times (met at aircraft for work the following day), and I've been roster assigned a fair few times too. I far preferred the old system with a little fear factor after the odd flight, rather than the fear factor every time you make an alteration to a bid; trying to second guess the best strategy to get that one day off you need. Plus this new system allows BA to employ considerably fewer pilots. It really must be a dream come true for them. How else do you think they can afford clash and protect and more!

To add insult to injury, it is now the case that if you volunteer to pick up overtime from EOT, you get paid more than twice what someone who has been forced to work will be paid (clash and protect having become the new norm).

If the majority are happy with this new system then I'd be happier, but I don't believe it to be the case.

[Widebdy]

Still, what ho, nothing ventured etc etc.

As long as the Canadian resident BALPA rep is OK, that should be enough to quell any dissent.

What are the odds on him being in management inside the year? Short, I would suggest.

If your reps are not representing you, which by the sounds of it they are not (losing ground during the leverage period of an experienced pilot shortage), remove them instead of complaining.

[anson harris]

The old system of being nabbed at short notice (Draft Assign) allowed a bit of wriggle room and an opportunity to avoid if you really had to be at home over the days in question. That avenue has been closed and that seems to be causing some very real problems.

So when you wriggled out of a draft assigned trip, presumably someone with less good excuses would pick it up?
I'm not trying to be flippant btw - just trying to understand the issues.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys, while I find all the imputs very good and useful, to me this thread was to understand wether a pilot with a good (enough) job should consider a move to BA. And I think the answer is quite clear...
Great to live modest, to make the best of it, no fancy watches and cars, but if I'm honest I see this has little to do with joining BA.. 900 hrs is 900 hrs no matter the paint scheme or the type of metal.
If in need of a (good) job though, well that's a whole different story.

All the best

[BAP]

Well I for one prefer the new system. The old system was fine, if it was used as intended - infrequently and only in exceptional circumstances...

However this wasn't the case at all. It was a constant worry every day when leaving work.
Some of us couldn't use the childcare excuse, and therefore were the ones to pick up the work, despite having holidays, anniversaries, partners birthdays etc. planned...

There are some horror stories of people being called when abroad, only to be forced to return to the UK the next day to work, as they answered their phone by "mistake"

The new system is very similar to every other airline that has a random rostering system. You can request a preference for days off, but you can't be certain until the roster is out.
Good airlines normally publish the roster 2 weeks before the end of the month, but some will delay it to a week before.
So if only BA could speed up the process, then our system would be no different to most other airlines.

It is a great shame the bidline is no longer as it used to be, but everybody needs to know that when they are rostered a day off, that it is indeed a day off.

We can only hope that, when BA has recruited enough, that Forced Assign will be less frequent. Otherwise as I have said before, part-time seems to be the only viable option, if you want a decent life outside work.

[Threethirty]

I'm a bit confused by this Forced Assign concept, are they forcing you to work a day off, or is this only the case if you answer the phone by mistake?

[Wirbelsturm]

I'm a bit confused by this Forced Assign concept, are they forcing you to work a day off, or is this only the case if you answer the phone by mistake?

The company 'sells' the months work to the pilot community and we, through bidding, agree to achieve the flying programme.

Some people bid high for high credit months and some people bid low. There are always some uncovered trips for which there are those who don't achieve their selected bid or don't place a bid, otherwise known as 'blindline' holders. The company constructs the blindlines from the remaining trips and then allocates them to the blind line holders after both bidding stages are completed.

The new 'Force Assign' stage takes any uncovered trips after stage 1 and stage 2 and the blind line construction and allocates them to pilots who have not achieved CAP and have the space for the uncovered work on their line. Failing this a given trip line may be wiped for favour of work coverage.

The upshot is that, in days gone past, you could bid for a line and be allocated the trip line thus knowing what you were getting about 3 weeks in advance. You could, with hours of unpaid overtime in your 'bank' bid low for a month using a 'bank' withdrawl to get time off thus leading to flexibility and work life balance.

That has all now disappeared. Even with a CAP line you can be force assigned, a process which appears about 10 days before the end of the month.

Once the rosters are published they are, generally, set in stone and a very lively swapping culture exists leading to you often swapping half the month out for more beneficial trips.

Not an ideal solution in my opinion.

[Jwscud]

If the briefing given at the Gatwick roadshow is correct, there is a lot of fresh blood coming into Shorthaul - 311 hired thus far this year, expected 350-360 total, and the same next year. Extra numbers will surely make a big difference?

[Locked door]

To the BA people whinging about roster assign. Go and work for a gulf carrier for a couple of months for a reality check. You have no idea how good you have it.

[Amigo South]

Locked Door,

Yes, it may be worse elsewhere and BALPA does like to remind us on SH that we could have become Vueling but you are missing the point. BA needs 700+ pilots over the next 2 years. Emirates need 400 pilots this year. Cathay needs 350+ pilots this year. There is finally some competition in the market so the airlines will need to up their game or park aircraft.

[Flap33]

Locked Door,

Although I appreciate your comment I feel it is unfair to make such a statement on this thread. BA have finally admitted to having too few pilots, force draft was horrendous and roster assign isn't much better. The ability to bid for, and achieve, a roster has been taken away from us so is very significant.

With regard to ME comparissons, how about the comparrison of the figure in the bottom right hand corner of your pay slip each month?

You can't have it both ways!

[Locked door]

You might just find there's not much difference to the bottom right corner. The desert isn't what it used to be, poor accommodation, bullying management, 1200+ hours per year, I could go on.

Talk to any DEP (as I do) and you'll find the grass isn't greener on the other side. I for one prefer RA to DA, as I suspect do the silent majority. The personal attacks on our reps is beneath contempt, and not appropriate for this thread (or anywhere).

LD

[Threethirty]

Thanks Wilberstrum

[toro]

Gs-alpha, narrow runway et al......

There are NO BALPA reps commuting from Canada just by constantly referring to them doesn't make it true and neither can I envisage any of the reps EVER going into Management.....

I am NOT a rep and have no personal connection to any of them but sick and tired of anonymous trolling trying to push their own agenda.

I have 20 years in BA out of 37 years in the Airline industry. It still the best gig there is but it will never be the same as even in recent years. The majority of those I work with are still happy to be working for BA but it's definitely changed and you will have to accept that. The BALPA reps I genuinely believe do their very best to slow the tide of bad changes not for their own personal agendas but for the common good. How they continue with the barrage of ignorant vitriol amazes me.

Working life isn't anywhere near as bad as you read on here and it's a natural selection to have those most miserable to be on a forum such as this where they can bitch and moan anonymously without any come back.

BA is most definitely not what it was I agree..... But look at the alternatives.?

ATB Toro.

NOT management or BALPA REP just a regular line pilot....

[Megaton]

Toro,

At least one BALPA rep is currently commuting from Canada unless his phone number and contact details are out of date. Another rep commutes from the U.S.

[TopBunk]

Megaton

At least one BALPA rep is currently commuting from Canada unless his phone number and contact details are out of date. Another rep commutes from the U.S

No matter where they commute from, I don't think anyone in BALPA doubts their dedication to the cause. The time and effort expended by the reps in general, and by the Head Office Team of the BACC in particular, is immense, and not worthy of the snide remarks being made. Without them and their efforts the lot of the BA pilot would doubtless be much worse.

The very fact that the pilot strength in BA is 4000 and growing is testament in no small part to the way that they have picked a path through the minefield of the last decade.

[Callsign Kilo]

Sounds like the tables have turned completely at mainline. Sad to see in many respects. Those ex Hamble type characters who were able to chuck it all in at 55 must be sighing a great sigh of relief. What an industry!

[sidtheesexist]

I see some of the 'Ra Ra' girls have migrated over from the Ba company forum :rolleyes: give me strength.....it was bad enough over there trying to post a point of view contary to that of Jo and the rest of the polit bureau. Please don't for one minute think you can come over here and start silencing criticism of and discontent with, the current bidding process/work coverage measures...:ok:

[hunterboy]

I think the backlash against the BALPA reps is more to do with the realisation that many of them aren't sharing the pain of the many recent changes to Bidline.
Added to that is the suspicion that some are making serious amounts of money in overtime through "clash and protect". I don't doubt that some of the reps are in the job for the right reasons,however, I think it is recognised that some are merely the other side of the coin to our flight ops managers, and have more in common with them than they do the line pilots.
Personally, I only see this all ending in tears, whether a company falling apart under the strain, or a big smoking hole in the ground.

[Right Engine]

Whilst anonymity does increase the snarkiness on here, what the majority of ordinary BALPA members are struggling to understand is how, in this period of such unrivalled profitability, with a quite evident shortfall in the supply of experienced pilots globally, there has been such a downward trend in T's & C's?
They are also confused by the fact that should any member dare mention this 'disconnect' on the Union forum, they are publicly vilified for it by both reps and a small handful of supporters. The resignations are many. BALPA is in disarray.

[RHINO]

Nicely put 'Right Engine'

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The resignations are many. BALPA is in disarray.

I get why so many feel disenchanted, but what exactly does resigning from the union achieve?

Apart from the predictable response of a "1% pay rise" :hmm:

[Right Engine]

I get why so many feel disenchanted, but what exactly does resigning from the union achieve?

Apart from the predictable response of a "1% pay rise" :hmm:

Admittedly very little, but those who did, often say it is the only way of making the Reps appreciate the level of dismay. BALPA appears to represent the demographic that most matches the BACC. In other words, if you're on long haul and you commute, your opinion is most valid and your lifestyle, most protected.

It is also not helped by reps who fail to get re-elected yet are continuing in their role (when their low-vote was a consequence of their perceived failings)

[glipglop]

After reading the recent posts with a sneak peek of the BA SH lifestyle, I'm still happy I'm applying. I'm with a low cost right now, and moving to BA for a similar lifestyle with some better benefits is a win-win for me.

I'm not fussed about getting a command quickly, I just enjoy flying planes, and to do so from a London based base is an excellent opportunity for me. Especially when I grew up only a few miles from Heathrow.

I've made it through stage 1 and have an interview lined up for early August, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Landflap]

Glip ; I think you will succeed. I would hire you tomorrow. Good luck.

[AceD3]

...with an upcoming BA assessment looming, is the consensus regardless of your test results, subject to having a current rating equal to BA fleet?

I have neither yet qualify for DEP due to having the Jet/Multi crew time. Studying hard for the assessment - but to peril as neither Boeing or Airbus TR?

[Time Traveller]

Have they dropped the grammar assessment? ;)

[AceD3]

I'm practising maths right now ;-)

[Juan Tugoh]

Glipglop, good luck.

despite the anger at BALPA, BA is still a great company to work for, it has its's challenges but so do all companies.

there is plenty of advice out there about the interview. It is an evidence based interview - give me an example of when xxxxx. Be aware of BA as a company and its position within IAG. How it is doing financially and what challenges it faces. and all the normal stuff too,

[Deep and fast]

Balpa hq have lost the plot. They think they are a more political machine now.
No, negotiate the terms the pilot workforce require them to say and call the strike if needed. Balpa is the legal framework to make this happen.

Get with the program Balpa or stop taking the money.

[wiggy]

(Continued thread drift)

re- BALPA and

negotiate the terms the pilot workforce require them to say and call the strike if needed.

..If you're following the debate in the "other place" you'll know that there have been pleas by some line pilots for the community to make a point to the company by not volunteering to help the company out by picking up uncovered work or selling back summer leave, etc. Following such pleas there then follows howls of protest by other line pilots who demand their free market right to do whatever they want with their time in return for cash......:oh:. Given that what do you think the chances are of IA of any sort being solidly supported across the line community?

I think some of the things that has been agreed by BA BALPA's are shall we say somewhat puzzling, such as the change to the short haul duty rig, but organising BA pilots, each with their own agenda is a bit like herding cats.....

Hopefully, now, back to DEP recruitment.....

[737 Jockey]

I was told recently that any new Pilots joining BA will be signing a contract to join IAG rather than BA Specifically. A worrying turn of events if true! Anyone care to shed light? :sad:

[wiggy]

I'm sure that's been both asked and answered here or on one of the parallel threads before. That said I'm darned if I can remember what the definitive conclusion was.

No doubt probably somebody with superior search skills to me (which is most of you) can find the answer...

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

737 Jockey...

I've received my start date within the last few days. There was no mention of any IAG contract during the phone call or the subsequent email confirmation from BA resourcing. They've been very pleasant, professional and open from the outset so I'd be surprised if it arrives with IAG all over it. That being said, until it arrives on the door mat I couldn't say for certain.

ATB

2W2R

[wiggy]

The previous "conversation" I recalled was from about a year back when it seemed that some were somehow under the impression their contract meant that they could be redeployed to other fleets within IAG, AFAIK that was and is incorrect. Not sure what the letterhead is on the current contract but AFAIK the deal is that BA are the employer.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The previous "conversation" I recalled was from about a year back when it seemed that some were somehow under the impression their contract meant that they could be redeployed to other fleets within IAG, AFAIK that was and is incorrect. Not sure what the letterhead is on the current contract but AFAIK the deal is that BA are the employer.

As mentioned above, I've had nothing to give me any inclination that I'll be receiving anything other than a BA contract. The BA recruitment / resourcing dept have been a pleasure to deal with throughout the process so I'd be surprised if it does arrive with IAG on it. Either way, my resignation is already in and it wouldn't stop me joining anyway having received both the base and fleet I was hoping for.

Whatever happens, I'm a VERY happy chappy.

[BTAP]

"Which name on the contract?" was asked at the LGW roadshow.

We were told that it will be a BA contract, however IAG owns BA so "make of that what you will"...

[EMB-145LR]

My contract (which I received in April) makes no mention of IAG, only BA.

[no sponsor]

There was some internal comms the other day to indicate the recruitment and manpower depts were looking into the numbers required next year. It certainly sounded as if recruitment would be opening up later again for next years need, in addition to the FPP and managed path route.

[Harry palmer]

Have all this years posts been successfully filled?

[Superpilot]

Harry, stated above. No where near.

[Harry palmer]

Next years drives going to be a struggle then.

[Superpilot]

At a recent Stage 2 assessment day presentation it was mentioned that approx 350 new pilots need to be hired between now and end of 2016. So 50% of recruitment is complete. They are also considering re-opening the application for non-rated who applied but failed the assessment process under one year ago.

[SinBin]

There is also a steady trickle out of the door at the moment that has the potential to be more of a gush; EASA hasn't kicked in yet fully, especially on long haul, senior bods facing huge tax bills with their pensions since the budget, and there is a strong rumour that 700+ have applied for part-time....

[speedbirdie]

Sorry guys if this as been mentioned in this topic already. What are the 767 rosters like. I know this fleet are retiring but maybe not for 3 or so years. How many sector per day would you get? Like SH fleet would you get 2,3,4-5 day trips.

[Harry palmer]

Very much hope non rated recall goes ahead.

[binsleepen]

Speedbirdie,

All that follows is yesterdays plan, I am not aware of todays plan and I have no inckling of tomorrows plan.

The long haul 767s retire finally at the end of summer '16 and the long haul trips are either 3, 4, or 5 days long. Almost all short haul days are 2 sector (there and back) trips. very occasionally there is a 4 sector glasgow trip and we have a strange 3 day trip with 3 sectors on day 1, day 2 off down route and 1 sector early on day 3.

Come winter '16 we will be down to just 7 SH aircraft so everyone is hoping that it will become very inefficient in the last 2 years but I doubt we will be so lucky.

Also be aware that when the 767 finally retires you might not have sufficient seniority to bid for a long haul fleet and you may be directed to the airbus. That said the 767 fleet is a very friendly and happy fleet with very reasonable rosters at the moment compared to the A320 and 747.

Regards

[coalencanth]

If you're unlucky enough to be directed from say 767 or 747 to A320, are you refrozen for 4/5 years on SH or are you only locked for the hiring freeze?

[binsleepen]

coalencanth,

Only for the remainder of your 5 years hiring freeze.

Regards

[coalencanth]

Thanks binsleepin'

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

coalencanth,

Are you heading to the 767 fleet?

[speedbirdie]

Thank you binsleepen

how many hours a month can you expect to fly and would it be mixed SH and LH or do BA roster you LH 1 month and SH the other?

Thanks again

[WonderBus]

I know I'm being lazy and not reading back, but what is life like at LGW? Is the contract the same? I understand the rostering is different. The hold pool email said today that the remaining positions for 2015 are based out of LGW for experienced 320 DEPs. Is there a transfer list for LHR? Personally commuting to LGW would make life a lot harder. Thanks in advance for any info.

[coalencanth]

2 whites 2 reds:


No sorry - Had an option on the table, decided to stay where I am.


cheers

[VeroFlyer]

All quiet on the western front hey? I guess because the application window has been closed for now.

[Threethirty]

Apparently its so they can process A320 rated people who missed out within the last year.

[Jwscud]

They are working through the people who applied. No sim slots available for those who get that far until mid September. At the presentation I was given on my Day 2, they have courses filled to November and around 40 openings to be filled the remainder of this year by A320 rated OCCs and around 300-350 to be filled next year.

[Harry palmer]

When is the 2016 drive likely to start, must be soon if they require such a large number of people.

[EMB-145LR]

If it's anything like last year expect non-TR'd recruitment to start at the end of October.

[Dupre]

Quick question - does one need an EU licence prior to applying to BA DEP when they next open up? Or can one go through the selection process without, and convert if successful?

Thanks, I have asked them by email but no reply.

[NickS]

You don't need the EASA licence to apply, but you will need to convert before your start date. CAA takes about 2 weeks according to their website.

[Lead]

2 weeks ?!?!?!

:}

[nrn]

I'm entering week 5 with my license conversion from the IAA to the UK CAA.... Not anywhere near to completion

[V55]

Is there an indication as to the prospect of further long haul courses in Q1 2016, as it's been stated that 2015 will be 320 courses only? Or has the steady flow on to the Airbus in 2015 freed up 5yr FOs wanting to move, negating the need for any more direct entry long haul stuff?

[bex88]

Internal movement from SH to LH is happening. The 2016 bids close at the end of the month and then by the end of October results will be announced. After that I think the recruitment plan will shape up regards DEP LH.

[Superpilot]

Well, it took me 13 years to reach Stage 2 and on the day it would appear I'm still not BA material. That's the BA chasing over and done with. Upwards and onwards with a job I actually love doing at a base that's more convenient than a local flying club :ok:

All the best folks.

[sidtheesexist]

Super pilot - sincere commiserations, I suspect it will be the company's loss...
If it is any consolation whatsoever, I would respectfully suggest that the way things are going, it may well prove to be in the longer term, a blessing that it hasn't worked out for you. I've just come back from a really enjoyable trip but the attritional nature of it all, cannot be disguised. Most of us are completely knackered and I for one am being forced down the part time route in attempt to regain some balance in the work/life equation.....

I bumped into a SH skipper the other day who had hit 900hrs on SH!!! Think about that for a moment....when you think of all the domestic sectors plus CDG, BRU, AMS etc etc that is a shed load of flying. In my first year on the bus c10 yrs ago I did 750 and that felt like hard work. I'm LH now and recently exceeded 100 in 28 and my annual total is rolling along at about 850....

Just my observations. Good luck and safe flying. Rgds Sid

[SinBin]

Sorry to hear that superpilot, having worked for two other airlines myself, BA is just another airline. As the saying goes, 'same circus, different tent'.

[Tricia Takanawa]

Looking at the expansion numbers planned for next year, I'm considering applying if BA re-open the application process.

Im currently flying in the Middle East, wide body FO, approx 1-1.5 years away from CMD. Has anyone made the move recently? If so, was it worth it?

Im not unhappy here, and earning good money with pretty good career prospects. But Im concerned about what happens after 10 years here. Being mid-30's I still have a while to go. Which is my main reason for considering applying. I see BA as a job for 20+ years. But if its not significantly better, I would be hesitant about going.

Just hoping to get some input from others before I apply. Thats of course if it opens back up.

Thank you!

[Harry palmer]

Are the day one, two and Sim days still being allocated and run or has the requirement for this year now been meet with regard to courses and hold pool?

[shabon]

Did my sim assessment around 2 weeks ago now and still no answer from BA as of yet.... does anyone have an idea as to how usual a wait of this long is?

Thanks and good luck to the others going through selection at the moment!

[RexBanner]

Harry I'm doing the Sim Assessment in September (they are totally booked up ie nothing available before then), a friend of mine is soon to do his interview at Waterside and another about to resit day one. Given that anyone sitting the sim in September is going to have to provide three months notice and take care of the referencing etc I would doubt that any of them will receive a start date before the end of the year. I'm also led to believe that they are more or less finalised with numbers for the remainder of 2015.

Therefore I would hazard a guess that any positions from this point on will be hold pool for 2016. How that affects the next window of opportunity for applications will obviously depend on how many that are being churned through right now manage to pass. However they did say during my presentation that the numbers estimated for next year are in the region of 300 again.

[EMB-145LR]

shabon - A longer wait generally seems to indicate good news. It took them 19 days to get back to me when I got in. I know of two or three other guys who experienced the same. It seems that bad news seems to come is about 7-10 days after the sim at most.

Regarding course dates and hiring for this year; they've just about filled the remaining spots for 2015, although there may be one or two left at the very end of the year. The remaining courses for 2015 are all going to be for LGW Airbus apparently. For 2016 the company is expecting to take on another 350+ guys.

[757_Driver]

bear in mind that most of the sim assessors are line pilots and everyone is working like a one-armed walpaper hanger at the moment, so it may well take them a few weeks to actually be back in the country to sit down with the training department and go through everything. Mine took a good 2-3 weeks when i joined 4 years ago and that was without the manic crewing going on at the moment

[john1007]

Hi all,

I am non-rated and I passed selection last month so in the hold pool awaiting a position. Have heard the news that BA are now prioritising 320 rated and FPP pilots and it will probably be next year before they take non-rated again.

Does anyone know if/when they will start taking non-rated pilots again? I know a friend who was in the hold pool a few years ago and got kicked out after 12 months so had to go through all the selection again! I am really looking forward to joining BA, wanted to all my life and just praying that does not happen!

Any thoughts?

[Icejock]

@john1007

What kind of experience do you currently have, do you have a Boeing rating of some sort?

[FRFO]

Anyone here with a BA sim assessment coming up fancy a practice session? I'm looking for a sim buddy.

I have the BA sim this month. A mate who was recently successful recommended a sim company that runs sessions tailored to the BA process. it'll be not far from Gatwick, 4 hours-ish in the box, and ASAP.

PM me if you're interested. :ok:

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

FRFO

If you don't manage to buddy up with someone, Cardiff Aviation are good at that sort of thing for a solo session. Not unreasonably priced (£600 for just over 2 hours 744 with the motion on). They've got some good intel on the type of format you'll face on the day. Certainly helped me anyway.

Best of luck.

[john1007]

@icejock

No Boeing rating unfortunately.

John.

[Juan Tugoh]

Figures for LGW for years 1-5 (your engagement freeze) will be pretty much the same as LHR as the pay points are identical and the allowances are pretty similar. There are less nightstops and therefore duty pay will be a little less but the figures for SH will be similar. If you work on the LHR figures then take £200 per month off I doubt you would be disappointed. The issue is that unless the few £ per month difference is a deal breaker for you, I would not wait for LHR if you can get in earlier and get your seniority number sooner.

[shabon]

For anyone interested in a timeline for the BA application:

Initial application was spring '15
Invite day 1: + 3 days
Day 1: 4 weeks later
Invite day 2: + 1 day
Day 2: 3 weeks later
Invite to sim: + 1 day
Sim: 4 weeks later
Hold pool (email): + ~ 3.5 weeks

In total start to hold pool was just over 3.5 months

Good luck to everyone applying

[Juan Tugoh]

I forgot to mention that within the engagement freeze you can bid for a same seat/same aircraft , i.e. FO on the Airbus at LGW to FO on the Airbus at LHR, transfer to LHR which should be processed in seniority order on the annual bid and attracts no further freeze. So, given that recruitment is to both bases you should be able to move to LHR is you desperate to be be there, certainly within a couple of years.

[Boeingtr6]

Good morning,
I don't suppose anyone else has their sim assessment on Wednesday (12/01/15).
Please get in touch if you do.
Thanks,

[jetting]

Hi,

I'd be very grateful if somebody could answer the following:

1. How many leave days do you get at BA?

2. At my current airline we have an agreement that crewing cannot swap you to a duty that is more than 2 hours either side of a rostered duty. Do BA have anything like this?

3. I've heard differing figures for experience requirements to go straight onto long haul. Can anyone confirm this?

4. I have an event in early May I would like to attend. I understand that you don't get a say on leave for the first year. How likely is it that I'll be able to swap to have this time off?

5. Is there a limit to how many hours you can be rostered in a month or does it just need to be legal? Also, is there a minimum number of days off at roster publication over and above legal minimum?

6. After how long can you use staff travel?

Thanks

[wiggy]

1. Full timers get 4 weeks leave plus 2 " duty free weeks", so without going into the arcane details call it 6 weeks.

2. BA can't "swop" you onto anything....in theory at least your final roster ( published just before the start of the month) is exactly that...that said in the event of disruption once down route all bets are off (which I guess is the same everywhere).

3. Can't answer that without knowing what you've heard.:ooh:

4. You may get the leave you want, you may not, you bid for it but what you get depends on the demand for those particular days and also how much high value leave you've hoovered up in previous years. Outside of leave you fundamentally have zero control over your days off regardless of how long you've been in the company. That said you may be able to swop to get the days off, than again maybe not.

5. Assume EASA limits with not too many blocks of days off at base.

6. 6 months.

[jetting]

Thanks wiggy.

I've heard it's 1000 hours multi-crew but there was no mention of total time.

With regards to days off, is there no minimum number of days off per month when the rosters are published in addition to EASA? (I'm currently guaranteed 10). You mentioned blocks of days off but I'm more concerned about actual number of days.

I've recently been given the good news so I'm in the pool at the moment. The trainer at the sim suggested courses in March/April. Has anyone heard anything different?

[wiggy]

The current rule set has quite a bit of wriggle room in it - we are meant to have an average of at least 10 days off in each consecutive 4-week period, averaged over three such periods...In other words you are not guaranteed 10 days off every 4 weeks. It's also worthy of note that the rules go on to say that
"whenever practicable days off should be taken in the home environment.":rolleyes:

I have seen comments elsewhere that some in short haul are not getting 10 days off at home per month, maybe someone more familiar with the short haul side of the operation will have more info.

[Stocious]

Of course, that's for LHR crews.

LGW is different, where you are guaranteed 11 days off a month, excepting that for two summer months it's 10 and two winter months it's 12.

[wheelie my boeing]

The 4 weeks of leave that full timers get is 2 weeks twice. The downside is the leave includes what would have been days off. You're allocated leave using credit hours. The credit hours do not equate to an average days work - they are significantly less.

So, 4 weeks of leave are not 4 weeks worth of worked hours. It's about 3 weeks worth of worked hours and the shortfall for the 4th week you have to make up by working harder during the other days of the month - of take a pay cut.

[back to Boeing]

Or just bid for a blind line and the credit become's BA's problem and you keep the money. You probably work a lot less in the process. Granted I can't chose my days off but I work a hell of a lot less on a blind line than I do on a trip line. And I get to keep my wrap days as well.

I've yet to work to cap when on a blind line.

But that's a personal thing. I'm not fussed when my time off is, but I am fussed about having it.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

No such thing as a day off under EASA FTL!
Scheduling Agreements and UK Working Time Directives will be a help!

[EMB-145LR]

I believe that the 1,000 hour jet requirement for long haul has to be on an aircraft with a MTOW of over 50,000kg.

[Flight714]

Anyone here have any idea when some sim dates may be available? I hear they might be using a 757 sim as well? Any musings?

[ApproachStable]

Would anyone be able to explain how the carmen rostering system works in LGW? How much control do we have over the rostering in LGW?

[Juan Tugoh]

Carmen is a preferencing system not a true bidding system. You tell the system what you would like to do and what you want to avoid. It then produces rosters based on these preferences. Carmen will cover the work, if that means blowing off preferences that is just tough. As a junior bod you will get some "satisfaction" I think it is nominally 40% and this grows with seniority. You can bid for specific trips but the more you ask for, the more specific you are the greater the chance this will fall into the unsatisfied portion of your bid. Carmen is a b***h but it is better than nothing. If nothing else it can help you get earlies or later. Everyone has their own theory about Carmen. In my experience it is better to be very junior on Carmen than very junior on Bidline, though quite what Bidline is these days nobody really knows.

[wiggy]

JT

though quite what Bidline is these days nobody really knows.

:D :D

[Approaching Minima]

I've tried over 20 times per day for the past week to book a simulator assessment slot but it keeps saying "no slots available". I even received a reminder e-mail asking me to book one! I'm going to e-mail them tomorrow's to ask what's going on.

[wiggy]

I think the training capacity is fairly stretched right now

It is, and there's a lot "flux" as well ( I think that's the right word)....:}

Good luck.

[glipglop]

Best to call up. They gave me a good idea of when slots were going to become available. I had my interview at the start of July and my sim slot is for early September.

[highfive]

Plastic 787, cant you hurry up now and resign from Norwegian and let some others have a go ;)

[Harry palmer]

Roughly how many guys are now swimming in the pool? Is there any indication when they will start 2016 courses for theses guys?

Best of luck

[SkyRocket10]

Roughly how many guys are now swimming in the pool? Is there any indication when they will start 2016 courses for theses guys?

It has been mentioned internally by the recruitment team that as things stand most offers up until the end of the year have been made. For those that are still in the hold pool they have been told to expect more information on 2016 courses in the autumn. BA is planning to take a short break from any new recruitment campaigns. This will allow them to process everyone with a live application. Apparently over 100 people are still awaiting their simulator assessments with a similar number at the interview stage.

[Juan Tugoh]

The plan for 2016 is being looked at and it is likely that course information (for both internal conversions and external candidates) will be available in mid Oct. So expect wild conjecture and speculation till then - oh and after then too.

[Jwscud]

Rough idea of the current recruitment timeframe:

Applied 14th June.
Invitation to Day 1 +1 Day
Day 1 +5 days (lucky empty slot)
Invitation to day 2 +2 days
Day 2 +22 days
Invitation to sim +2 days
Sim +44 days (earliest available slot)
Success/Hold Pool +7 days

So just under 3 months in total.

[Harry palmer]

Any more being said to those swimming regarding when courses are likely to be offered. Out of interest how are people fished out? Is it based on when you entered the pool first in first out or can it be random based on who can start a particular course on that date etc.

[Jwscud]

On my day 2 they said they call approximately 3.5 months ahead and the only remaining slots were for Airbus rated bods, so if this year's courses are full Juan's suggestion seems reasonable.

How long have you been swimming?

[Tricia Takanawa]

Hi,

Last Summer people were complaining about the work load and force draft. How has the recent recruitment changed this?

I also noticed that a lot of people were predicting the end of Bidline with the introduction of the EASA FTL's. Have these been implemented yet? If so, has there been many changes?

I appreciate any input on life at BA, and changes from the mirage of information above.

Thanks!
TT

[Harry palmer]

Any further news from the swimmers regarding how long you will be waiting?

[BASHLH]

This posted yesterday on our Recruitment forum on Yammer....

8 Airbus rated pilots will be getting made offers in next 7days for Jan 2016 start, followed by 8 more very soon after. Crystal run in a few weeks time will determine the length of the wait for others when it creates the 2016 recruitment plan.

Hope this helps.... I believe at least 350 pilots needed next year so good news for all in the pool & those who wish to apply in the next round!

Rgds,

BASHLH

[Wireless]

Is it all for short haul or any recruitment still required onto 74 etc?

[Father Fintan Stack]

Thanks for the update BASHLH, sounds good.

Are there many still swimming in the pool and if so, are these all rated guys or are there still non-rated people swimming? Surely there can't be that many left now waiting?

Anyone know how non-rated guys may get on in the next round of recruitment or is it likely that only rated or those with jet time that get a look in?

Fingers crossed!

[Harry palmer]

Thanks for the heads up. Is 8 per course the normal intake? I think there were about 40 swimmers ( rumoured ) and I presume not all destined for the Airbus so possibly was the plugs pulled the pool could empty very quickly.

Best of luck to all swimming, floating and applying.

HP

[Jwscud]

Thanks BASHLH - I guess us non-rated swimmers will be waiting for type rating courses rather than just OCC slots to become available. Was there any indication how many are in the pool?

I guess they pick you out of the pool based on when you started swimming and whether you're rated or not.

[Wirbelsturm]

Is 8 per course the normal intake?

Depends entirely upon training commitment/load and sim availability/serviceability during the relocation.

I would assume that those who are swimming and have the qualifications for ZFT etc. would be pulled as and when capacity for specific fleets dictates, not upon date of entering the pool.

All IMVHO of course.

[john1007]

Thanks for update BASHLH.

Any ideas when they may plan courses for the non-rated swimmers amongst us?

[BASHLH]

Hi Everyone,

Unfortunately I don't know anything about numbers, types & waiting times. Only what every other BA pilot knows from Yammer etc. As soon as I see any more information then I shall post it (as long as it's public knowledge).

It has been said many times on Yammer that the end of October will be when information will hopefully come flooding out. Until then BA don't even know numbers. I was in this position 5 years ago waiting for a course. The thirst for information is frustrating which is why I post as many facts as possible. What is real is that BA need pilots & there will be plenty of opportunity for all, and for those in the pool it's not a case of 'if' but 'when' a course gets offered. 16 320 guys are already getting offers for 2016.

Kind RGDS,

BASHLH

[wiggy]

Tricia T

Last Summer people were complaining about the work load and force draft. How has the recent recruitment changed this?

I also noticed that a lot of people were predicting the end of Bidline with the introduction of the EASA FTL's. Have these been implemented yet? If so, has there been many changes?

Bidline still exits in name, in an interim form pending major changes in a year or two.

Partial EASA FTLs been in force on shorthaul for a while. The effect of that's for a Shorthauler to comment on. EASA FTLS or parts thereof not yet implemented in Longhaul, but coming soon.

Force Draft has gone ( so no more being ordered to come to work at 24 hours notice) but not because of recruitment. It has been replaced by Roster Assign, where the company can (and do) drop extra work into any days off you think you've cunningly left in your month just before your final final roster is published. In effect it's Force Draft but with much more notice, which might just allow you to sell/swap the offending trip off to somebody else if you really really needed a particular day(s) off.

I don't get the impression the overall workload has dropped, and for tripline holders it's now more difficult to bid to work high one month and then safely be able to bid to work low the next (i.e. run a "bank" and use banked hours) because of the risk of work being Roster Assigned.

[Tricia Takanawa]

Thank you Wiggy

[Chief Brody]

Recent BALPA newsletter article re Bidline 2017....



Bidline 2017

When BIdline 2017 is in place, Final Assign (FA) and Draft Assign (DA) will be REMOVED from the rules completely. Your final roster, when published, will be unchanged by any further assignments. The publication date of final rosters will be a lot earlier than now - approximately 14 days before the start of the month.

We have listed below a number of significant BLR 2017 headlines:



No Final Assign / Draft Assign

Final rosters- at least 14 days before the start of the month

Stage 1 bidding process unchanged



IB2a bidding- fully automated process - more powerful than the current “one trip at a time”

IB2a bid

- bids for trips AND days off

- “generalised” bids (e.g. “any 3 day trip”, “any day trip”, “prefer late starts”, “prefer destination XXX")

- “avoid” bids (e.g. “avoid early starts”, “avoid trips greater than 3 days”, “avoid destination XXX”)

- “offer” parts of your IB1 tripline into the IB2a process to seek a better trip / days off outcome at IB2a

- bids to protect certain trips / days off


Blindline bidding:

- fully automatic “optimising" blindline builder

- same range of bids allowed as IB2a (see above)

[wiggy]

Chief B,

For the unitiated it might be worth putting a bit of meat on that, this is my no doubt flawed model of how it works/will work, you may well see it/describe it differently:

Present system:

Stage 1 - "pick your line" out of the published list, which may or not have anough work on it to be a complete roster. Fail to get a line you'll be rostered ("Blindline") or on Reserve. If you have a line then move to Stage 2

Stage 2 - Pick trip(s) to fit your line to make up the hours. On seeing Stage 2 results you may have an vague or not so vague idea of your final roster.

"Stage 3" (my term, newish process): Final Assign (FA) - Company Assigns work into gaps or even re-jigs your roster to optimise (maximise?) your work. You're most vulnerable if post Stage 2 you're a bit low on hours and/or have left big gaps on your line, so you can get a bit of a feel beforehand of whether you're likely to get extra work assigned or not.

All in all a lengthy process.

Under one of the possible 2017 systems:

Stage 1 stays as is.

Stage 2 and "Stage 3" are combined. You may get what you ask for but the company may also optimise the roster (i.e. change what you had before). So whilst it's correct to say there will be "No Final Assign/Draft Assign" the assignment of work is almost certainly going to happen, but it now takes place in the combined Stage 2/3 process. It's a much quicker way of doing things for sure but many have concerns that the process is more than somewhat opaque, to say the very least, because so much can be hidden in the name of "optimisation". If you end up with a roster far far removed from your bid it will be almost impossible to analyse why you got what you got and whether you have been miss-handled or not, because it may have taken umpteen iterations of optimisation to get there.

How it works out in reality you'll see, personally I hope out of Dodge by then :p.

(BTW folks a Health Warning - the full rule set is so complex it's possible only one person in BA understands how it all works, and is contained in a document the size of a small novel...the above precis is very definitely a precis of a precis of a precis)

[Father Jack Hackett]

And that one person will write an app and make a small fortune!

[Tay Cough]

And that one person will write an app and make a small fortune!

Let's hope he can soon. :ok:

The new stage 2 will also swap trips between pilots so should have a lot of flexibility. For example, if you want to go to a particular destination on a given date and another pilot who has that trip wishes to get rid of it in favour of something else, in theory that trip will go to the first pilot as it will be released by the second pilot who will then pick up from the third pilot, etc.

My understanding is it will be significantly better than the current position.

[wiggy]

As you say " in theory"....the worry some of the more clever grown ups have is that if the company wind "optimisation" up to 11 :E pilot A could see their trip being changed but pilot B not getting it, and ultimately neither of them being satisfied because the company have intervened and dumped different trips of their choice on both pilots lines.

It's perhaps worth pointing out the current system already has a fairly good trip swapping mechanism, albeit the swap happens much later in the process, but is negotiated, agreed and actioned in the system directly by the pilot(s) involved. That said complex multiple swaps are tricky.

Sorry if I/we are perhaps drifting off the core intent of the thread, in defence I know the rostering system (and it's future) is of interest to some prospective joiners.

[PitchPitch]

Update... apparently a few folks have been offered A320 at LGW for end of January :) Good luck to all those in the pool!

[Father Fintan Stack]

Good news, are these guys rated or not?

Might signal the start of the next round of recruitment?

[billybuds]

Next round of recruitment to open on Friday, a general round but priority given to those with an Airbus rating. Approx 340 guys/girls needed for next year.

[Rolling24]

All type rated at the minute, I believe.. I hear that courses have been offered at the start of January too.

[Threethirty]

Airbus rating as in a mini bus or one of the bigger ones too?

[john1007]

Thanks for info. Billibud.

I am non rated and have been swimming for a few months now. Any ideas if they are planning non rated courses?

I am starting to get concerned about priority being given to 320 rated guys and girls. Hope I'm not swimming for more than 12 months!!

[Jwscud]

I would guess the A320 LGW are the rated guys referred to a few posts back by BASHLH.

I'm not at all concerned as a swimmer if they are re-opening recruitment this week as there can't be too many of us in the pool. Just being patient and waiting for the suggested October shakeup and hopefully some news then.

BA have repeatedly stated there are jobs for all of us in the pool.

[JazzyKex]

I'm sure those of you with your ear to the ground will already know about these but I've just seen that BA are holding some roadshows in Luton and Stansted next week.

I think the Luton ones are on the 6th and Stansted on the 7th. On Yammer it didn't give more details but I've just googled "BA career event in Luton" and it came up with something in Eventbrite? to book places...

For those interested it might be worth a look.

[Tay Cough]

Things must have taken a turn for the worse if BA are having to do roadshows. It used to be that if there was a sniff of a pilot slot, you'd be killed in the rush. Think very carefully before coming to shorthaul.

They'll soon be bonding at this rate.... :eek:

[wiggy]

Things must have taken a turn for the worse if BA are having to do roadshows.

I just wonder if BA are getting close to exhausting the pool of suitably qualified people willing/able to consider an almost daily commute to LHR.

[Wirbelsturm]

I just wonder if BA are getting close to exhausting the pool of suitably qualified people willing/able to consider an almost daily commute to LHR.

And afford it in the South East!!!

[wiggy]

:ok:

Yep .....I was trying to be non-controversial and was including that under the "able" heading but you're right, affordability has (or should be) be a major consideration....there's a limit to how long you can operate out of a Bath Road B&B :bored:

[Threethirty]

Billybud, where did you hear that recruitment was to start this Friday?

[billybuds]

From an internal email sent round asking us to 'spread the news'!

[wiggy]

As an aside it seems the BA Pilot Recruitment Team will be at the "Jobshow London" at Westfield on 9th & 10th Oct ........

Home Page - London Job Show (http://www.londonjobshow.co.uk/)

[Approaching Minima]

Looks like you were right, recruitment is open again for DEP, closing date 1st November, good luck!

Feeling happy and relieved in the holding pool (NTR), thanks for all the information provided by posters here, it was mainly very helpful although you really need to spend a few days going through it all. At my sim assessment it was mentioned that they are certainly going to be ramping up courses in the new year after a bit of a lull at the end of this year. With my 3-month notice period hopefully I'll get some news soon. Most likely to be shorthaul Airbus out of LHR apparently. They've recently been allocating LGW positions but they intend to be mainly LHR in the new year.

[fly-half]

DEP recruitment is open again, closing date 1st November. Good luck if you're applying!

[Deano777]

I thought it was twelve months to reapply?

[The African Dude]

here may also be opportunities to join our A320 fleet at London Gatwick or our longhaul fleets subject to your experience.

This seems to be much more open than the previous adverts, which more heavily emphasised the A320 IIRC. Are there actually more openings, or is this statement simply intended to encourage more applications?

[Jwscud]

In the last round, people went on to the 747,767 and even 777 as well as simply the A320. If you have a bus rating though, I think there is only one place you are going.

Things I imagine will become clearer when the long-awaited internal shuffle completes and they start to empty the hold pool.

[wiggy]

Are there actually more openings, or is this statement simply intended to encourage more applications?

I'm certain there are more openings, but it is all probably down to what jwscud mentioned - the internal shuffle.

Given recent comms (which I can't repost here) it sounds as if the company is still really struggling to come to up with any firm up idea as to DEP/FPP numbers needed and where they will go over the next year, other than it will be into three figures.

[AngioJet]

Whatever the number, the need seems pretty substantial; first time (for the last few years at least) I've seen a banner on this site advertising pilot recruitment at BA... :eek:

[Cattivo]

I don't think joining with an A320 rating means you're only going one place at all. Have met a handful of 320-rated new joiners from EZY, Lingus and Monarch who all went 787. Frustrating for seat-frozen SH guys but thems the rules and it all comes out in the wash in the end.

[billybuds]

I don't think joining with an A320 rating means you're only going one place at all. Have met a handful of 320-rated new joiners from EZY, Lingus and Monarch who all went 787. Frustrating for seat-frozen SH guys but thems the rules and it all comes out in the wash in the end.

Fully agree, on my 747 course none of us had any Boeing or long haul experience.

[GS-Alpha]

I think this year was probably a one off wrt DEPs with just Airbus experience going to the long haul fleets. We've got plenty of currently employed Airbus rated FOs who are desperate to move to long haul. They've so far been denied this opportunity due to an overloaded training department, but I'm not convinced that argument will work for much longer. I have no inside information. I'm simply pointing out that the exceptional circumstances of this past year do not necessarily apply going forwards.

[Approaching Minima]

There have been a few mentions recently of "an October shakeup" and how it's something people are waiting for. As I am not sure what this exatly refers to could someone please explain?

Is it something that happens every October?

[wiggy]

GS,

Reading between lines elsewhere I think you're correct.

I believe the Reps involved in the recruitment arena (who do a good but thankless task most of the time) got a fair amount of "heat" from many incumbent pilots who felt they were disadvantaged by the last round of recruitment. As a result I'm not sure you will see quite as many, if any, DEPs to Longhaul this time round, but then again, I have been known to be wrong on many occasions.....

[GS-Alpha]

Rex

Are you saying your source suggested people will be recruited onto long haul because it is the only position that DEPs with decent experience levels are prepared to sign up for? That suggests to me that short haul T's and Cs need to rise. If BALPA allows recruitment into long haul for this reason, they surely aren't doing their job properly? Short haul commands are already close to becoming so junior that short haul FOs can move right to left on type. What are they going to be told when they want to do that? "Sorry, you're frozen because we can't recruit into your seat. We are giving your Command to that more junior long haul FO who blocked your move to long haul a few years ago." Where will it all stop?

[Rolling24]

Hi Rex
Interested to know where you heard that there are people in the hold pool without the requirements for a ZFTT course? Meeting these requirements through either minimum hours or sectors was needed to apply, as I'm certain you are aware, so it would surprise me if this was the case. Besides the requirements aren't that demanding, especially the sector requirement.

I'm also interested in knowing what the "October shakeup" is all about, has anyone got anymore information on this?

Cheers :ok:

[wiggy]

Approaching Minima

I'm also interested in knowing what the "October shakeup"

I suspect it's reference to nothing more sinister or earth shattering than the results of the first "Crystal" run being announced (actually it is pretty significant if you don't get what you want...). That's the computer process that amongst other things churns out the results from the summer bid for internal transfers and AFAIK the list of who is probably going to get what is due end of Oct. The results of that give a clue as to the scale of movement between fleets/seats next training year and might give an indication of the scale of external recruiting.

GS-Alpha

Agree 100% with the sentiments expressed in your previous post. I know some pretty p'd off folks on short haul who had their move to a Long Haul seat blocked last year despite them having the required hours/experience. I am also aware that the main reason given for this was a lack of training capacity, which is down to the company, not the union. Even so I'm not sure the union reps will be able to hold the line for another year if people continue to feel their aspirational move from short haul to long haul is being blocked and they then see DEPs going straight to Long Haul seats.

[Juan Tugoh]

There have been a few mentions recently of "an October shakeup" and how it's something people are waiting for. As I am not sure what this exatly refers to could someone please explain?

Is it something that happens every October?

The "shake up" does indeed happen every year. It is the first output of Crystal. This is not just a process of asking people where they would like to go next, crunching the numbers and determining who is going where. The most important part of the process is the bit where Network Planning and the financial people get together and determine what they would like to achieve next year, what assets they have to achieve their plan and that determines the manpower requirement. Crystal is then run and that shows where people want to go, they "guess" at retirements and other losses like ill-health retirements and the program allocates moves and shows the required recruitment and training slots available. BA will always recruit direct onto LH rather than release an internal freeze as that generates additional training costs.

[EMB-145LR]

Interested to know where you heard that there are people in the hold pool without the requirements for a ZFTT course? Meeting these requirements through either minimum hours or sectors was needed to apply, as I'm certain you are aware, so it would surprise me if this was the case. Besides the requirements aren't that demanding, especially the sector requirement.

Although all of the DEPs come with previous commercial experience and thus can do a ZFT course, we also have plenty of men and women joining from the forces in the hold pool, along with the FPP cadets, all of whom need to do base training.

[uncle peter]

Emb

Not all forces people need to do base training. A large proportion ie coming from multi Eng fleets are ZFT compliant.

[Rolling24]

I see, that explains things. Thanks! :cool:

Hopefully all of us in the hold pool will have some news over the coming months then, following the 'shake up'.

Good luck to everyone!

[RexBanner]

Hi guys, deleted my previous posts as its clear they were a bit misleading and caused a bit of confusion with possibly the wrong terminology used. The situation that I was alluding to was that I was led to believe that you needed 3000 hours (including 1000 Jet) to go onto a long haul fleet with ZFT training, which many in the pool don't have. So just that if you're joining with more experience than that you might be surprised, that's all. Anyway I stand to be corrected.

[no sponsor]

The 2011 intake are all unfrozen next year. There's a whole load of Airbus F/Os waiting to go long haul as they can't take the relentless nature of short haul any longer, partly due to the BALPA agreed change to the duty-rig. There are 80 FPPs finishing training, and there's only one fleet they can join.

Denying unfrozen F/Os their place on LH isn't going to go down well.

[Jwscud]

80 FPPs? I though they only took 15-20/year or something like that?

[GS-Alpha]

The initial FPP plan was for 400 over 5 years.

Your last post is a lot clearer Rex thanks. I think all a future more experienced candidate can conclude is that people already in the hold pool will not go to long haul ahead of them. However, I don't think they can say they'll get a long haul place ahead of an unfrozen apirational bidder. The bottom 1/5th of the 747 are new DEPs as it is!

[Approaching Minima]

It must be hard for the airline to balance the business needs for recruitment and also try to meet the fleet transfer requests from the existing pilot workforce. Are this and next year's numbers of 300+ pilots to be recruited each year so extraordinarily high that inevitably less fleet transfers will be granted? The training capacity and costs are too great, surely? Or is BA considered large enough to absorb these extra costs?

What is written in a BA pilot's contract regarding fleet transfer? I assume there is no guarantee after 5 years of having any request granted.

[wiggy]

I assume there is no guarantee after 5 years of having any request granted.

Correct, don't join assuming you will be definitely be able to move fleets after 5 years. You may possibly be able to, but there are absolutely no guarantees.

[Tay Cough]

After five years, you're guaranteed to be unfrozen and free to bid. That's it.

[SinBin]

Having said all this some of us were wavered from our 5 year freeze this year, I now occupy the left seat and love it!

[wiggy]

Having said all this some of us were wavered from our 5 year freeze this year,

Another example of the truth of the old adage that gets trotted out at annual bid time of "always bid what you want, regardless of any freezes, never bid for something you don't want".

I suspect (as possibly has happened to Sinbin ) I benefited from being at the front end of a recruitment bulge and other peoples inertia. Less than 2 years into BA I escaped from the 747 Classic fleet to a new but initially unpopular fleet ;). Others just senior to me delayed bidding off by a year and ended up stuck on a fleet with a deteriorating lifestyle for over a decade, or went to shorthaul......

In a nutshell assume freezes will be applied, and also assume that if you are junior and are trying to bid off an unpopular fleet and on to a popular fleet(s) you're going to struggle to move, regardless of being out of freeze.... but always bid.

[Jwscud]

An update for you all on what was said at the roadshows this week:

- Looking again for around 300-350 pilots next year

- 81 FPPs and currently around 70 in the DEP hold pool

- They expect to start allocating courses again at the end of the month and expect to empty the pool within 2 months of starting to offer courses

- DEP to long haul slots disappeared quickly to early entries this year, they expect the same in 2016

Should hopefully cheer up those of us swimming...

[Rolling24]

Juscud,
That does sound very optimistic!

Thanks for sharing the info :ok:

[shabon]

nice bit of info... thanks for that Jwscud!

[Pilot2/b]

Attended the roadshow today. It was well structured very informative and the team made us all feel really at ease and welcome.
Came away from the roadshow feeling very positive and upbeat about future recruitment and the recruitment process in general.

[Doug E Style]

Judging by the banner ad I've seen on other parts of this forum, it would appear that BA are trying to attract train drivers...

[MrBernoulli]

Judging by the banner ad I've seen on other parts of this forum, it would appear that BA are trying to attract train drivers...
Ah .... those ads that I just don't see. What a wonderful thing ad blockers are. :E

[glipglop]

FYI for anyone interested.

Late May - Initial Application
+ 12 days - Invite to Initial Assessment
+ 19 days - Initial Assessment
+ 2 days - Invite to interview
+11 days - Interview (managed to book a cancellation, otherwise I was looking at an extra 30 day wait)
+ 1 day - Invite to Simulator Assessment
+57 days - Simulator Assessment (No earlier dates available)
+ 5 days - Acceptance into the hold pool
+ 21 days - Job offer given for the A320 in January.

So from initial application to the end it was 128 days. Just over 4 months.

[Rolling24]

I assume you are already a320 TR glipglop?

[VeroFlyer]

I have a sim booked for late November, anyone know what type its on or when they found out. We were told either 757 or 744 during the interview day.
Anyone who has been through recently have any more up to date gen?

[Approaching Minima]

BA will send you a briefing on the simulator assessment. I was sent one which included information on how to fly both the B747 and B757, in the event of the B747 sim being tech.

At a recent assessment on the B747 we were told they are going to start doing the assessments on the B757 only, I think from November. Be patient for BA to send you this information which they did for me 3/4 weeks ahead of time.

[EZY_FR]

Would anyone here happen to know when the FPP will reopen?

[Jwscud]

Veroflyer - at the roadshows they said 757 from start of November so I would imagine that's what your assessment would be in.

[glipglop]

I assume you are already a320 TR glipglop?

Correctemundo. :)

I have a sim booked for late November, anyone know what type its on or when they found out. We were told either 757 or 744 during the interview day.
Anyone who has been through recently have any more up to date get?

I know someone who did it earlier this week, and it was switched to the 757.

[Rolling24]

Congratulations! :cool:

[glipglop]

Cheers! Good luck to everyone else applying/in the hold pool.

[Flyboat North]

Good news for those applying to BA

Quick question regarding qualifications what does this statement actually mean.

"To hold a current type rating and a minimum of 500 hours, or the required sectors, on an aircraft that satisfies CAP 804 FCL.730.A - Zero Flight Time Training course requirement. We would be particularly interested in hearing from candidates operating the A320"

Does it mean 500 hours in a current BA type or would 500 hours in a 757 , BAC 111, 146 , fokker 100 suffice

Also the actual licence required ? , they are not requiring an ATPL ?? , someone who joined Easy straight out of flight school has 1000 hours with 800 hours on the A320 would be ok ?

[Gnat1809]

Yes that's fine, as long as you have a uk issued EASA licence it doesn't matter if it's a CPL, MPL or an ATPL.

[ChaseIt]

Anyone out there that is not A320 type rated and been invited to the latest round of assessments? If so how do your hours stack up?

[daveandg]

Hi guys and girls

Very optimistic, but given initially we're not in competition with each other but a standard, does anyone have any clues on the reasoning sections? I understand the verbal element is picking truths from statements, but does the numerical involve gleaning info from charts and tables, or very much just working with figures such as "...my garden is 200x400, how many packs of fence panels do I need if they measure 80 wide and 20 high with 8 in a pack..."

I appreciate theres loads of great stuff on here, but some is fairly old and if I get the call id love to put my best foot forward.

And if you want to moan at me for asking, ill take it on the chin!

[Chuffer Chadley]

Daveandg

In fact, the stuff on here regarding the tests is not far off the mark. Your garden fence question is fairly typical, irc. Type 'numerical reasoning practice tests' into google, and you can't go far wrong!

Good luck.

CC

[Approaching Minima]

As many people have posted before it takes time and effort to go through all the posts to glean information from this and other threads on British Airways recruitment. I did it and it took a few days, also invested in practice tools which I paid for. You have to put in plenty of preparation if you want to be successful, even in your written answers to the application questions. Take your time to get it right.

if you get invited to Stage 1 Aptitude Tests I recommend "assessmentday" and "skytest" websites.

[daveandg]

Thank you Chuffer Chadley and Approaching minima. I have read this entire thread as well as the previous 'lowdown' ones, and there is some really great stuff so good investment of time and effort. As for Googling, I can honestly say that when I do the searches the list of returns are all magenta!

Back to the books, cheers guys

[bigdaviet]

It seems like there is a lot of recruitment going on at BA these days. Does this mean at all that the time to upgrade for a new joiner in 2016 could be any shorter?

[Stocious]

LGW commands were at 4-5 years in this year. Who knows about the future!

[bigdaviet]

How about the long haul fleet?

[Flap33]

A longhal command.... the $64m question.

Personally, I've been in 14 years and am conservatively at least 8 years (probably more like 10) from a L/H command. For those joining now, I'd have absolutely no idea but unless you're under 30 at joining date I would guess you won't see too much P1 L/H time...

[wiggy]

LGW commands were at 4-5 years in this year. Who knows about the future!

Would it be fair to say that Gatwick commands certainly aren't the BA norm, for all sorts of reasons, and that is a situation that is unlikely to change?

How about the long haul fleet?

I assume you mean time to command? If so who knows? Last few decades it's been 15 - 20 years'ish plus depending on the fleet you are bidding for. Difficult to predict going ahead but IMHO (that's all it is) that's what you still need to plan on at the very least and I guess hope it comes down. There's probably going to be a bit of a retirement bulge coming up but OTOH you've still got a sizeable cadre of the Prestwick cadets in the LHS, next in line are the '90's and the '00 DEPs, and their replacements (eventually) will be the DEPs and FPPs who are already "in" in significant numbers.

I'd put money at time to upgrade to a Long Haul command staying at or above 15 years for quite some time.

(edit to add: I see Flap 33's more pessimistic than I am but also probably more realistic, I'd certainly echo his/her final comment - FWIW I was told 7-8 years for a 747 command when I joined as a DEP..it actually took 16)

[ManUtd1999]

There's probably going to be a bit of a retirement bulge coming up

What is the retirement rate like at BA? Is it set to increase over the next few years like at the US majors or not so much? I guess it's probably confidential, but there's no harm in asking :ok:

[Tay Cough]

I'm not sure about confidential. Having said that, I don't have specific numbers although they will probably be available somewhere. Yes, there's a bulge coming. All the pilots who stayed on over 55 when the retirement age initially changed start hitting 65 fairly shortly so there will be quite a bit of movement at the top of the pile. Couple this to increasing numbers applying for and achieving part-time and changes due to EASA FTLs and there will be a lot of recruitment going on for some time.

The bad news is for anyone joining now who wants a longhaul command. There is a second bulge, who are the "cadets" who joined during the nineties. Many of those who joined in the early nineties have had their longhaul commands for a few years now - and the youngest of them are in their early forties so have twenty years plus remaining. Those who joined in the late nineties are just coming into the frame now and are in their late thirties to early forties so again, there will be little movement for twenty to twenty five years for those people. Between them, they will occupy the top eight hundred or so of the seniority list for the longer term.

If you're joining aged under 30, you should make P1 LH. Over 30, possibly not. Depends how many of those above go part time.

[RexBanner]

Any further news on start dates? I take it there are now around 80 in the pool. I'm not overly concerned about drowning next September (although I suppose there's always that possibility depending on which way the economic wind blows) but it would be nice to be able to start having a clear picture of my next few months ahead.

[Approaching Minima]

IAG 2015 Q3 results will be out on 30th October so I'm hoping they'll be so good that the allocation of courses ramps up and the holding pool empties quickly!

[Juan Tugoh]

Hints are emerging that there are not enough internal bidders for Airbus commands. What this means is unclear, but it could be some very junior commands being awarded in the next year. Other options are also being considered. make of that what you will. It is all speculation and has no basis in any verifiable fact. Interesting if true.

[Wirbelsturm]

Hints are emerging that there are not enough internal bidders for Airbus commands

How much does that tell you about the state of BA shorthaul I wonder?

[wiggy]

Hints are emerging that there are not enough internal bidders for Airbus commands.

Interesting if true....is it worth speculating on why that might be the case :oh: :oh:

(Drat, Wirbs beat me to it again........:()

[Wirbelsturm]

Timing is everything Wiggy :E (apparently!) ;)

[SinBin]

I think it's a mixture, of long haul FOs waiting for a long haul command and not taking the shorthaul option as that becomes increasingly junior (744 command below 1550 now apparently), the high failure rate of Airbus commands (c.40%??) and the notorious (not in my experience I must add) reputation of the Airbus training department, the shear number of part time requests which have been sought for numerous lifestyle/tax/pension reasons, and the fact that the vast majority of those occupying the right seat of a shorthaul Airbus want to go long haul and fly a big machine, which was part of the reason for joining BA. I don't think it's an undesirable job just yet having just taken the shorthaul command option myself. I think this is positive and reading between the lines I might just find myself back at the golden runways of North Hownslow this following year, which from a BA career aspect is great news.

[GS-Alpha]

I joined BA wanting to be a short haul pilot forever. I never wanted to fly long haul however I soon realised that short haul flying for an entire career was unsustainable for me. That was at Gatwick over a decade ago!

Short haul SFOs must be pretty desperate to get away if they aren't bidding for short haul commands? Or maybe they are bidding, but allowing them to swap seats only exacerbates the short fall in Airbus FOs. They sure have got themselves into a bit of a pickle. I've heard stories in the past of Walsh saying the best gauge of how unhappy the workforce is, is whether they are are actually leaving. Well I interpret a lack of bidders for short haul commands as people leaving short haul. It's been going on for years! Sadly, I suspect one of the solutions being considered, will be to reduce the paypoint at which SFO pay is frozen. BALPA being BALPA, will agree rather than using this clear signal to sort out the fundamental issues.

[Juan Tugoh]

I cannot imagine that BA BALPA will actually do anything to promote SH lifestyle if it has any impact whatsoever on LH. They have sacrificed SH in the past to protect LH. At BA BALPA should really be known as B(OAC)ALPA.

The only thing that might kick them into action would be SH DEC.

[Wirbelsturm]

It's setting a dangerous precedent, especially with our IAG brothers Veuling rapidly expanding their Airbus fleet and code sharing SH flights from Gatwick.

It makes me wonder how long before the company splits, internally at least, back into effectively BOAC and BEA?

[GS-Alpha]

I think a split is inevitable at some point. I've never yet seen the company fail to achieve what it wanted eventually. Usually BALPA gives up something in order to prevent it happening, and then it just happens later on anyway. It is for this reason that I was strongly against the BMI concessions - indeed it was a significant part of why I left the union.

I wonder if they'll change command courses in order to improve the success rate? I know perfectly capable pilots who have been utterly broken by the command course system. It is no wonder that a lot of people would rather just not bother putting themselves through it for the sake of a short haul command.

[Juan Tugoh]

They could start by actually doing some command training. The current system fails miserably in providing actual command training, they are good at telling you you are not acting as a captain, but that is about it.

[wiggy]

If the rumour is correct ( and it's very much if....), just for the heck of it I'll add my ten cents worth.

Take a 10-12 year in SH P2. Suddenly there's movement on the lists on all fleets .... he ( /she.) is faced with the options of either:

1. Bidding for a Shorthaul command, which means an extra stripe, a pay rise,:ok: but an element of jeopardy, a possible one off tax hit ( any BARPers care to comment - re annual allowance), moving back to the bottom of a shorthaul status list with all that entails, and a post command freeze on type for several years :bored:

or

2. Not Bidding at all/only bidding for long haul RHS, and accept the risk of being a senior shorthaul P2 for perhaps just one or two more years. :cool:

I guess it's how much the individual want the extra stripe - guess we'll know for certain what's going on in the next few days.

[ATTCS armed]

Wiggy, As a BARPer LH P2 who has bid for a SH LHR command, there is no worry re exceeding the annual allowance. My pension contributions will increase as will BAs, but they won't double.

[wiggy]

ATTCS armed

Thanks for the info, good luck with the bid.

[GS-Alpha]

Wiggy I'd agree with you if instead of '10-12', you'd said '15-17'. A 10-12 year in pilot has no chance of a long haul command within the next 5 years. Yes there is expansion, yes there are people bidding for part time, yes there are EASA FTLs, and yes people are going to start retiring but seriously? In my last simulator, I had two Captains telling me I'd have a long haul command within two years and that I was being pessimistic. When I asked them had they actually looked at the age demographics versus seniority numbers... Well, you can guess the reply.

More likely, those 10-12 year in FOs have looked at the work patterns at the bottom of the Airbus seniority and have decided they would rather have a life.

[wiggy]

G/S

I wasn't implying a 10-12 year SFO was anywhere near a Longhaul command..I was implying he might have the choice of a short haul command or a move to RHS Long haul, sorry if that wasn't clear.

More likely, those 10-12 year in FOs have looked at the work patterns at the bottom of the Airbus seniority and have decided they would rather have a life.

Exactly.

[GS-Alpha]

Ah I see. Yes that makes a lot more sense.

[jetting]

I've seen EASA FTLs mentioned in a few posts in this thread where the poster is implying that BA will require more Pilots because of the new regs, implying that productivity per pilot will be reduced.

In my current airline, we have just introduced EASA FTLS and in most cases, particularly long haul, there has been an increase in productivity meaning the company needs, very slightly, less Pilots.

Does anyone have any inside info on what BA anticipate the effect to be?

[highfive]

80% guys interviewed pass . Hold pool filling up . Many P2F guys who took the leap to Eastern Europe n wanna now come home to mummy .

[Jwscud]

The numbers stated at the roadshows were around 75 in the hold pool early October. No numbers on rated/non-rated mix.

- approx 50% chopped on Day 1

- 60% pass interview

- 60% pass sim

They stated the overall pass rate is around 1 in 10 and the numbers above give you around 18% so approx 10% are getting the chop between application and day 1.

[Tay Cough]

jetting,

The problem for BA is that on longhaul it has traditionally relied on pilots being able to operate "back to back" trips in order to cover the work. EASA FTLs largely prevent this (there are exceptions) meaning more bodies are required.

[RexBanner]

The whole "acclimatised" thing with EASA is a bit of a red herring as regards to long haul. Aren't long haul pilots advised to stay attuned with their home time zone during trips anyway? Bit difficult with a Sydney of course but certainly doable on a back to back west coast I would have imagined, which is where the problems lie under EASA apparently. We all know EASA regs are completely ridiculous anyway and this is further proof.

[Cliff Secord]

Rexbanner

No, depends on length of layover. If short, in basic terms, yes, that's the advice. Min rest pax operators doing back and forth trips may achieve this with mild success.

But if long layovers its not a matter of choice. Even worse is long haul string freight trips over mulitple time zones. The body can keep up just about for the first two nights on its local clock before it succums to the inevitable.

Jet lag is extremely complex. An oft mis understood subject by shorthaul shift pilots. It's not the same as staying at home and altering your sleep pattern on days and nights. You won't achieve the same results. Sleep deprivation and jet lag aren't the same. Out of phase daylight, the environmental and cultural world around you moving in tune to a different clock, type of meals available at times of the local day. These all affect the brain and can leave you close to ruined by the end of a trip.

It's a big subject and the airline I fly for has almost a book of a manual on jet leg and how to try and cope with it. Try being the operative word. It's always going to be a damaging, unnatural process on the body that you can only do your best with.

[ChaseIt]

Have any assessment days happened yet? If so how'd people go with it? What can you expect?

[speedrestriction]

I have been told that the format hasn't changed from the accounts previously given. Numerical and verbal reasoning MCQs - time is tight for both. Computer based co-ordination and capacity tests - I don't think you can do a whole lot to prepare for these beyond getting a good night's rest beforehand if possible.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I don't think you can do a whole lot to prepare for these beyond getting a good night's rest beforehand if possible. Couldn't disagree more.

The prep is part of the assessment. Unless you're a very clever individual that's naturally gifted at verbal reasoning and computer games with backwards flight directors (I'm certainly not), I would strongly advise putting the leg work in.

With a bit of research and some minor financial investment in some prep software / books (SkyTest and Assessment-day spring to mind) these tests are entirely passable. The capacity test at the end of the first stage is something that can't really be rehearsed but in reality it's only as stressful as dealing with a lengthy non normal in the descent. If you do well in 3 out of 4 then you're probably in with a good chance. (bearing in mind it's an overall score across the 4 different tests on the day)

BA aren't after geniuses or **** hot pilots (if they were I'd still be back flying in LoCo land), just people that will fit in and are prepared to work hard, learn and progress. If you don't want BA enough to do so then you're probably best saving your days off for something more constructive and let someone else have a go.

As for a good nights sleep the night before, absolutely, but cannot be guaranteed. I had an awful nights sleep before 2 out of 3 stages. The hard work prior to attending each stage got me through.

Just my two cents worth.

Evening All

2W2R

[back to Boeing]

I don't think you can do a whole lot to prepare for these beyond getting a good night's rest beforehand if possible.

Absolute tosh. And I am one of those people that has no fear of sims and a lot of "difficult" tasks come relatively easy to me. I spent on average 30-60 minutes per day for 2-3 months preparing for just stage 1. Research, testing, verbal reasoning etc etc etc. Those former colleagues of mine that didn't put in the work are still at my previous employer. Those that did put in the work now (on the main) work for BA. Ask every DEP and if they're honest 90% of them will say they put in the work.

Those that didn't call the tests a pile of crap and totally unnecessary if you have a type rating "why should I be tested I've proved that I can do a course, I never wanted to work for BA anyway"