BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Landflap]

Oh c'mon ; Kingsurf is ambiguous for a Command and balks at the prospect of getting through all those communities on the way to Heathrow. I look back at Hamble selection and wonder how today's lot would even get past the initial, phase 1 screening.(A funny thing called an Application pro-forma and initial medical). Bring back A.H.,Abbott, Secretary to the Selection Board, you had to get past him first. Oh, he must be 100 now. He didn't like me at Phase 2 because I said "Cripes, I thought all secretaries were girls !" !

[Holdpoolin]

Ppruners,

How stuffed am I? Recently clawed myself into the holdpool. Non Airbus/Boeing 1100 Jet time 1200TT Not gonna get 2000hrs at my airline by the time I drop out next Nov...occasionally reading these forums there seem to be a lot of people in the know with all things BA...just curious as to what some of you think my chances of getting a call are in the next 12 months...

[sudden twang]

fly4more,
What does 'sipping coffee intently' mean?

[BASHLH]

Holdpoolin,

Congratulations on getting into the hold pool.

There are many positives to sites like pprune for sharing information, however it is a rumour network so there fore don't trust everything that is typed.

I'm not in the know of how the next 350/400 pilots for 2016 will be recruited but obviously there is a great need for LH NOW... That's not to say that non type rated holdpoolers are now not required. The facts are that there is a great deal of movement internally, nearly everyone of my 2011 batch are leaving the 320 for LH or seat change... We have to be replaced which is why the company are rigidly sticking to the 5 year engagement freeze (bar C32L/X). BA have run out of internal 'unfrozen' bidders hence the need for LH DEP's. I'm quite sure we will then require 320 DEP's type rated or not, as not all the 350/400 new pilots will go to LH... It's just a question of when. FACT we need pilots so your in as positive a situation as you could be in.... Don't believe posters who say we don't need you, how do they know? I don't & I'm not even sure BA know.... Things change very quickly.....

LC is a very trusted manager, he is one of only a few that know the plan for the next few months. I'm sure they are working on a plan... You just might be towards the end of that plan!

My Advice would be to Stay positive, & stay in touch with the recruitment team every couple of months... If I hear any further Facts then I will of course post.

Rgds BASHLH

[king surf]

Oh c'mon ; Kingsurf is ambiguous for a Command and balks at the prospect of getting through all those communities on the way to Heathrow. I look back at Hamble selection and wonder how today's lot would even get past the initial, phase 1 screening.(A funny thing called an Application pro-forma and initial medical). Bring back A.H.,Abbott, Secretary to the Selection Board, you had to get past him first. Oh, he must be 100 now. He didn't like me at Phase 2 because I said "Cripes, I thought all secretaries were girls !" !
Landflap is offline Report Post

You totally lost me? i seem to remember writing a post as to what life was like as a junior skipper at LHR and nothing more.

[Landflap]

KINGSURF ; Oooops, sorry. I was commenting on a post by THE CREW. Spotted yours that seemed to go the same way. Apologies. Thought I was being entertaining. Story of my life. Staying in today.

[Holdpoolin]

BASHLH,

Thanks, hopefully the next 12 months won't be too agonising! Appreciate you giving a heads up on anything you manage to find out, in the mean time I shall be in contact with recruitment as frequently as possible without being an outright nuisance!

[Wireless]

Hello

Regarding the leave. I gather its bid for 6 months in advance and over 2 bid seasons, and that you have 6 weeks allotted including the un worked weeks. A few questions:-

1/ Is it possible to achieve 3 blocks of leave in each season or are you restricted to one 2 week block and one single week?

2/ If you have a weeks leave of 7 days are there any "wrap around" days attached to the 7 days off in lieu of normal days off?

3/ How does a month with leave affect your requirement to achieve CAP? Does leave count towards CAP.

Many thanks.

[Juan Tugoh]

To answer the leave questions:

Leave at LHR is two weeks a season, with a duty free week

You can take these in blocks of a single week or as a two week block, you could, in theory, put the DFW up against the leave block of two weeks.

The leave blocks have 3 wrap days attached to them meaning that you can make the week into 10 days.

Leave and the DFW attract the daily rate of CAP. So divide monthly cap by the days in the month and you attract that much credit per day on leave and DFW

Wrap days and DFWs can be worked in, leave cannot.

Leave is bid for but is not seniority based. Each leave block has an attached value in points. This adds to your pot. More attractive leave blocks earn less points. When the leave bids are allocated, the highest points gets the leave allocated first.

Points last for (i think) 8 years, so after that time the points you earned 9 years ago are wiped - but the points for the last 8 years remain.

[Wireless]

Many thanks for answering JT.

[Stocious]

Just to clarify the required minimums for BA Command as few statements I've read on here aren't quite accurate..... It states in the OM-A Section 5.2 that there are 4 boxes of various experience, one of which you must satisfy before commencing a BA Command Course.

'1000 hrs PIC & 2000 hrs in command on civil jet transport greater than 25 tonnes with zero time in BA'I suggest won't apply to many, so we'll bypass that!

Most will fall into this category.....

'2000 hrs on jet transport greater than 25 tonnes or military equivalent, 1 year in BA'.


I read it as "1+3" rather than "1 of 4" boxes. So 3500 TT etc, then including one of the next three criteria.

The instructions in the Annual Bid document states the same. Otherwise, some of our early FPP chaps could easily have 2000hrs plus one year in BA come the start of their command course, but they've all been denied.

[The Crew]

All this is irrelevant unless you are in BA, Bid line , leave , nice to know but really, anyone commited to all the time n effort necessary to get into the pool dont give too hoots about the complexities of Bid or leave.
Its gotta be better than most loco J2 or Monarch!

[Wireless]

You don't know anyone's situation. I'll ask what I like thank you all the same.

[JaxofMarlow]

and if you are in BA then I would assume you know the answers. It may be better than eJ and Monarch but how would we know if we don't ask ?

[The Blu Riband]

Its gotta be better than most loco J2 or Monarch!

Really?

I would say it depends very much on your age , and where you live.

[largegeorgejones]

Why age now? If commands are happening at 1-2 years after joining, what difference does age make? Age was only a thing cause it meant financially other options were better wasn't it? But now BA seems to be offering quick commands that most would give their right arm for (apart from current BA employees strangely).

And so now you can make FO money on a part time Capt salary if you want so who cares about seniority or bid line. Or just kick back and as you work up the list you get all your weekends back.

[ezy320]

BA command on SH happens fairly quick if you got the requirement, especially A320 LGW base. :ok:

[SkyRocket10]

BA command on SH happens fairly quick if you got the requirement, especially A320 LGW base. :ok:

Wrong!

Many captains and FO's have recently declined their moves back to LHR next year. Most are enjoying life at LGW with great crew and a real variety of flying. More importantly, the roster control you get as a junior pilot at LGW is far better. Ultimately this will result in LHR becoming the most junior command by some margin.

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys I' ve said it for a long time, the future is low cost for short haul, period. Just different flags, but same story. I think this is to keep in mind when thinking career moves etc..It will come for long haul too, not just yet though.
Good luckto all

[3Greens]

Well if you've said it for a long time, and yet it still hasn't happened; perhaps, just perhaps you may be wrong.
I think personally there's a market for full service and no frills. BA seem to be proving this.

[bringbackthe80s]

I was talking about contracts, lifestyle and hours per year...and as you can very well see it has happened already..

[4468]

SkyRocket10
BA command on SH happens fairly quick if you got the requirement, especially A320 LGW base.
To be accurate. In 2016, any pilot in BA with the required experience for command can achieve LHS A320 IF THEY BID FOR IT in the annual bid. Certain freezes (including type freezes) have been waived.

Anyone with the experience, can achieve a LHR command. Anyone with the experience, can achieve a LGW command. It just depends which you prefer? Long, four sector days = LGW. Multi day Euro tours = LHR. LGW pilots achieve fewer days off, and will eventually bump up against a pay cap.

The current time to command is a TOTAL one off. Don't make ANY plans expecting it to last!

There are reasons why SH commands are unpopular in BA.

If LHS of an Airbus is all you want, go to/stay at Easy.

[Gordomac]

4468 : Good closing point. Does remind me, though, of Trident SBY at the Queens (not a pub) and expressing a desire to exit BA after the merger saw many of us go backwards through the Seniority Lists, I mentioned that a faster time to Command was achievable by joining the so-called Independents. I was smartly put in my place by a T3 SFO who proudly asserted that, surely, it was a BA Command that was the aim. All history now but I agree that, surely, a LHS on anything with BA painted on the side has got to be well worth aiming for and maintaining, once achieved.

[Northern Monkey]

You'd have to be mad to leave a command at easyJet on the assumption that you could get a BA Heathrow command after 6 months. There's absolutely no guarantee of that happening and even if it did, you would take a massive pay cut to do so. Over on the easyJet DEP thread, someone has posted a very comprehensive review of the Captain package at easyJet. It is significantly better than the BA package on pay point 1, and for many, many years thereafter it remains better, especially once you factor in the share schemes and bonuses that easyJet pay. Not only that, but your lifestyle would take a major hit for a long time as you ended up flying blind lines with no roster control (to the new EASA FTL limits!).

If, however, you want to go long haul then clearly there is an argument that now is a good time to make the move.

As for low cost short haul being the future, the term "low cost" would be better replaced by "low wage". The future of short haul is increasingly in the middle ground in terms of service. Passengers want some extras like frequent flyer schemes and newspapers and wifi etc. Even "low-cost" carriers like Vueling are realizing this. The key to providing it all at an attractive price is to ruthlessly drive down labour costs. The incoming Executive Chairman of BA wholeheartedly subscribes to this view of the world and will doubtless drive forward its implementation.

[bringbackthe80s]

a LHS on anything with BA painted on the side has got to be well worth aiming for and maintain.

If this is the argument, then I rest my case.

[SkyRocket10]

To be accurate. In 2016, any pilot in BA with the required experience for command can achieve LHS A320 IF THEY BID FOR IT in the annual bid. Certain freezes (including type freezes) have been waived.

Anyone with the experience, can achieve a LHR command. Anyone with the experience, can achieve a LGW command.

Apparently no longer the case due to a number of people declining the base transfer from LGW. I believe this is also combined with a rumoured change to manpower levels, which will obviously affect available positions.

[RexBanner]

May I again just point out to the doommongers on here that, as it stands, British Airways are more profitable than easyJet (despite carrying less passengers and presumably burning more fuel) and far more profitable than Vueling. Granted that is including the Long Haul operation but, seeing as Short Haul is now profitable in its own right and that it feeds into the Long Haul operation, may I ask how the enormous requirement to reduce wages can be argued?

Also I think it would be stupendously awful management for a new CEO to come into a profitable company and immediately set about reducing T's & C's of the staff.

[wiggy]

.. may I ask how the enormous requirement to reduce wages can be argued?

Rex

There's no point in bringing logic or other airlines profits into the argument when it comes to defending BA short haul T&Cs. The bean counters at BA continually want to reduce employee costs. The board will look at "improving shareholder value" and the Board will be looking at their bonuses.

[RexBanner]

Wiggy I'm fairly sure they'd be on very shaky ground legally trying to issue direct pay cuts in a profitable company. Even the weakest Union (Balpa?) could defend that position with ease.

As I said that would be p*ss poor and clueless management for any CEO to come in and immediately set about destroying the terms and conditions of the staff with the argument of increasing profit. You'd increase profit by paying the staff nothing too, doesn't mean you can get away with it.

[wiggy]

I agree that you won't see direct pay cuts for all the reasons you mention...but "they" can be very cunning and I've never ever seen the company reduce the downward pressure on T&Cs, even on the occasions when we were profitable in the distant past. So I'd expect more of the same from BA Head Office and BALPA ( and by that I mean the union members, not just the reps) can't take a breather or assume the pressure is off just because we're well in the black for once.

Anyway, back to the thread.......

[Thad Jarvis]

No matter what it says on the easyJet DEP thread, if you're in your thirties a move from easy to BA is still a no brainer because it gives you choices that you will never get in easyJet. When factoring the comparative 'package value', easyJet do not provide health care, phi or an acceptable pension. Staff travel is pretty rubbish as is the crew food. The rosters are written by the bonus driven with unrealistic turnarounds and dubious block times. That is the easyJet status quo and isn't likely to improve given around 25% of the workforce can't grasp the significance of strong trade union representation. While the orange package is by no means the worst of the low cost offerings in terms of basic and ancillary cash it is way off legacy offerings in most other areas. Going forward post EASA most guys will find it necessary to go part-time in order to keep themselves going towards retirement. That puts quite a different slant on the overall figures too.

[Icanseeclearly]

I am a new joiner at BA on shorthaul and can honestly say I am enjoying every minute of it.

Compared to my previous aviation experiences (20 years in the military and turbopropping) it is fantastic.

Of course it is not all sweetness and light nowhere is as T's and C's are being eroded across the industry (talk to the guys in the sandpit). It's horses for courses if you want to apply and work for BA go for it, if you don't, don't simple really.

I believe you could put a bunch of pilots in a free bar with free dancing girls/boys and some would complain that it was lager not bitter and blondes not brunettes.

My teacher told me I would never get a job staring out of Windows... How wrong he was !

[4468]

SkyRocket10
Apparently no longer the case due to a number of people declining the base transfer from LGW.
Mate.

What I said was, anyone who wants a LGW command can get it. Anyone who wants a LHR command can get it.

What's "no longer the case"????????:rolleyes:

Why on earth are people bidding from LGW, for LHR postings, if they don't want them????

That's just c0cking up their colleagues, and frankly there should be a penalty for that!

[Northern Monkey]

daveandg

Congrats on passing the selection and making it in to the pool!

The simple answer is that your bidding power initially will be zero. To start with you will be rostered blind lines (the company chooses your roster). Typically this will be a mix of 2/3 day trips and day trips. Longer trips of 4 or 5 days tend to be on trip lines.

The good news is that such is the pace of recruitment that you will soon find yourself able to achieve trip lines. Once you are about 10% off the bottom of your status you should start getting something you bid for. You might need to put in 30 or 40 lines to start with and be happy getting your 25th choice, but again, if recruitment keeps up you will soon move up the list. To give you an idea, in 5 years I've moved up 85% off the bottom, so now get my first choice every month. To consistently achieve 4 or 5 day trips you need to be quite senior as they tend to go to commuters who prefer to bunch their work together.

[RHS]

Just to echo some previous posters, everything in aviation is hearsay and conjecture along with the notorious Galley FM. My last outfit was apparently about to become an outpost of Virgin, never happened. While I am sure our new CEO will have some new ideas, and i'm sure some will be unpopular, until it happens I will not speculate or allow myself to become worried.

At the end of the day, I am enjoying every single second of working at BA. Yes, they demand very high standards, but that's fantastic. The skippers I go to work with are invariably good guys, with lots of experience. I can honesty say that I haven't flown with one I have disliked yet, I am not stupid enough to think this will go on forever, but this is my finding so far.

My salary and over all package has increased significantly. Even on the "terrible" SH. I have more days off, and am less fatigued by a significant margin than previous. Yes, living in the South is not for everyone, and yes I will potentially be waiting 17/18 years for a LH command. That's fine. I am young, I am more than happy to explore the various opportunities available to me before then. I know where my priorities lie, what I want, and I weighed up the benefits/negatives. It's a personal decision. Being based in Liverpool with an early command at Easy is great for some people, no better, no less. The fact remains, this was the right decision for me, and I am truly loving every second.

Regards Seniority, I am just starting to get lines I want, and I am significantly up the seniority list already, this with less than 12 months in the company.

[MEA07CP]

Daveandg

Interested to know if you are 320 rated already? Presuming you are if you have been told to expect a course in the Spring........

[Stocious]

Why on earth are people bidding from LGW, for LHR postings, if they don't want them????

That's just c0cking up their colleagues, and frankly there should be a penalty for that!

Because:

*** in cruise back to LHR sometime in 2013***

SFO Bloggs: I've just been surprisingly successful in a command course for P32X next year!
Capt Heathrow: Gatwick?! Why on earth would you want to work there? Airbus bases have never worked there, you'll be out of a job pretty soon! And Carmen sucks so you'll never get what you want, and you'll always have really punishing 4 sector days because there's no credit system.
SFO Bloggs: Oh don't worry, I'll be putting a bid in to come back here next year! Bidline rules!

*** Summer 2014 after a few tough months of Command Course, plus consolidation at new base ***

FO Gatwick: Have you put in a PRIAM bid?
Capt Bloggs: Yeah, just back to Heathrow.
FO Gatwick: Oh that's a shame.

*** November 2014 after settling in***

FO Gatwick: Did you get your PRIAM bid?
Capt Bloggs: Yes, but I actually really quite like it here. The crew are really nice, the flying interesting and I've got a bit more used to Carmen now. I also quite like being at home with the kids a bit more and the car park is 5 min stroll from CRC! Dead easy.
FO Gatwick: Are you staying then?
Capt Bloggs: Think I might do actually!

[Busbo]

Hi all,

As a current loco captain based in EDI I'm trying to quantify the drop in income that would come with a move to BA LH. For those that would say "try using the search function" I have read each and every page of this 117 page thread and have found snippets aplenty but would like a few things confirmed (as best anything can be on an anonymous forum)

1. Net income £4200? What is the approximate range around that? One poster mentioned worst of £3500 and best of £5500. That's quite a range if true.

2. Commuting costs. One poster mentioned "£94 a pop", would that be the cost of a staff travel round trip from EDI (after the six months of course)? Do you get staff parking anywhere other than london? I often see BA crew in EDI staff car parks but perhaps they're cityflyer.

3. Conversion course costs. I feel I know the answer to this but I assume that I would be liable for all accomodation costs during my initial training as it would be at my "home" base. If so, how long is initial training including conversion course?

4. Leave. Sounds like a complex business so not looking for a full run-down but as a junior pilot (and would be for some time as DEP LH) is it realistic to get at least one family-holiday sized chunk of leave during school holidays (whichever holiday) each year?

5. Blindlines. I understand that this means the company gives you what they want but does it mean that you get "undesirable" trips or is the downside purely that you have no control over days off? Is it a case of pot luck and you may get a good commutable roster with good destinations or you might not? Or is it the case that these lines generally generate downright unpleasant rosters.

6. How many trips on average would a blindline generate for LH? (To help work out commuting costs) and how many nights per month on average would a LH pilot need to spend in a london B&B as part of commuting (perhaps too variable to answer)

Answers to any of the above would be very much appreciated. I know I want to do the job but I need to know the nitty gritty first and have my eyes as wide open as possible. As someone with a family/mortgage/blah/blah I need to know the above before committing . I know the answers will largely be bad news compared to my current deal but it's a question of how bad.

Hopefully any answers will be of use to others in a similar situation.

Thanks in advance.

[4468]

Stocious
SFO Bloggs: I've just been surprisingly successful in a command course for P32X next year!
Either you haven't a clue what you're talking about, or your terminology is very sloppy?

Which is it?

If you live close to LGW, it can work of course. (Though everyone at Easy is paid better and works less) If you don't live close to LGW, it's unsustainable whoever you work for.

[wiggy]

Busbo

1. A lot of effort has gone into reducing the variable element in basic pay - some of the variability in the amounts being posted might be explained by people picking up extra work as part of the "open time" (overtime) process.

2. Domestic standby return fares can now be even more expensive than the figure you mentioned..check your PMs. Car parking arrangements seem generally to be down to individual airports.

3. Yep, if LHR based and doing any training at LHR ( initial, recurrent or conversion) you pay for your food and accommodation. Somebody more recent will hopefully give you a handle on the timescale for an intial course.

4. There's a points system for leave to stop the senior guys hogging the popular slots. That means some years you'll get family friendly leave, sometimes you won't.

5 and 6. ..... You might want to ask those questions again in about a month when we start seeing for the first time our EASA compliant LH rosters.

In the meantime I'll say that historically blind lines have always been a bit of pot luck, with the odd good and a few iffy trips, but they could be massaged to be more friendly in terms of blocks of days off by a bit of trip swopping (e.g to generate a back to back to get specific days off). However it seems under EASA compliant FTLs things are going to be much more restrictive. As it stands we do know that back to backs at base will be almost impossible (unless BA organises/funds them), that in many circumstances you'll need more time off at base post trip than currently is the case, and that certain combinations of trips will be very problematic. We'll start getting a few clues as to the shape of things to come when the Feb intial bid process starts just before Christmas. We won't see the new blindlines until well into January.

Ultimately not sure if there's much "meat" on that post but hope it helps a little bit.

[pomme pilot]

Hi,

Has anyone received a long haul offer since the email went out? If so, would you mind mentioning which fleet, and your previous experience?

And please can I say a huge THANK YOU to those at BA that take the time to reply to all of the questions put forth. I know that I really appreciate the insight!:D

[The Blu Riband]

Busbo

commuting on blindlines is going to tough.
5-6 trips per month probably, at £100 each rtn flt.
You'll probably need to stay before a couple of these at least.

Leave is a pain in BA. Getting time off during school time is difficult.
I havent managed to get a week at xmas for 5 years, and ive got 26 years in.

[Busbo]

I appreciate the responses.

It appears the commuting aspect of what I'm considering may be the deal breaker.

I had thought it would be 3 or 4 trips, 5 on a bad month. Now Im hearing of a sixth.

I also (it appears somewhat naively) thought the cost of staff travel commuting would be of a more negligible nature. Sadly there's nothing negligible about £100 return 5 or 6 times a month.

Oh well, better to find out now I suppose.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

[ALLOW]

I commute on LH as a new Joiner. Worst case five trips, picked up over time….. generally four a month sometimes even three on a BL:ok:. Personally I really enjoy Blind-lines, but then again I don't mind landing at 5am on a saturday and getting the most out of the weekend from that.

I have stayed in London twice over the past six months. Budget 500 quid but I seem to around the 350 pound mark for the commute so far. (70 pounds return for me).

My overall experience so far has been extremely positive, sure it has drawbacks but nowhere is perfect and in my opinion pilots will always have a moan!!!!!! Commuting on LH is relatively straight forward and significantly less tiring than SH was!!!!

[EMB-145LR]

From a short haul perspective as a new joiner I would say that things here are a lot better than the doom mongers make out.

I've been here for just under five months now. The only really negatives I've experienced have been the very variable quality of training at CTC during the type rating, especially during ground school, and the difficulty one can experience in finding out who or which department to contact when various needs arise. It's a huge company and generally rather impersonal, but I'm used to that from my previous employer. You won't see the same people very often, and in terms of cabin crew there is generally very little interaction with crews generally swapping out on every other flight.

However, apart from those minor gripes my experience has been extremely positive so far. The actual training done at BA has been excellent. The variety of trips and ability to trade with colleagues and open time means that I have been able to get exactly what I want and need in terms of schedule every month. I've been on the line for three months now and have had two blind lines and this month I have a trip line. I've managed to get day trips almost exclusively (which is what I want), and I'm averaging around 14-15 days off per month. For December I've got 18 days off without using any leave (but I did use clash and protect to get an extra three days off). 8 of those days are in a row over Christmas. If you want tours then you can easily get them, likewise with day trips.

I feel more rested and better treated at BA than I ever did at my previous airlines. When at work short haul is hard work, and BA hold you to a very high standard, but you are rewarded with a good quality of life and a very good pay and benefits package.

The quick commands seen this year probably won't arise next year, and if they do you will still be paid less than your counterparts at easyJet for quite a few years. But life in the RHS is good and you can forge a career that suits your own personal goals.

[Approaching Minima]

A couple of week ago I was offered a 777 course starting beginning of March. Currently flying the 737 for loco with just over 4000TT. I applied in June, was in holding pool for 8 weeks. Can't wait!

[Wireless]

Allow, you mention of good quality of life but I'd like to hear from LH people who've been in a few years. The picture painted sounds far sounds as hard work as anywhere with roster assign, high CAP figures and impending EASA regs.

5 trips a month is pretty hard work, but the potential of 6? What's your honest opinion of quality of life on long haul as a junior?

The tipping balance for me is when you stop coming home and feeling like you're at home instead you feel like you're flying in for a brief visit between trips and heading out still jet lagged. The money isn't the most important for me. The lifestyle is in a job balanced by decent enough money.

[4468]

Wireless

1) Roster Assign - As a Blind Line Holder, your entire roster is 'assigned.' (As opposed to 'awarded' which is when you actively bid for a line/trip.) BLHs already pretty much cover the month's 'hotspots', so in many ways RA is much less of an issue for juniors than seniors.

2) High CAP figures - ANNUAL CAP limits are laid down in Bid Line Rules. BA have to pay overrun payments to every pilot on any status, if they exceed these by a set margin. They would rather gnaw off their own gonads than pay this money. So if CAPs are high early in a year, they will invariably be lower later in the year. Ask any 767 capt what their monthly CAP is for Dec, for precisely this reason! Thus far, BLHs rarely work to CAP anyway. Part of their credit is achieved by Time Assignable days, which are often unusable!

3) Impending EASA regulations - British Airways are in the process of a MASSIVE recruitment process, increasing their pilot numbers to record levels, just as EASA commences. Care to hazard a guess why??? EASA is going to be at least as big a problem for BA as it is for any individual pilots.

You mention 6 trips a month? I can't GUARANTEE that there won't be odd months when you MAY fly 6 trips, but if you think that means 72 trips per year, you are WAY wide of the mark! Every other month, you can have a week's leave, (plus 3 wrap days) or Duty Free Week (with 1 non assignable day) If you have kids under 18 you are entitled to four weeks unpaid leave for every qualifying child. I'd be staggered if you reach 50 trips in any year on LH! Probably much less.

All these considerations ONLY WHEN YOU'RE JUNIOR! Once you're senior, then you can virtually write your own roster, flying to some of the greatest cities/islands in the world. If you want to do that from day one, then tell me where you're going to work?!

[Megaton]

Not sure I've ever done 6 trips a month except when prostituting myself for overtime. Looking back over the last 6 months I haven't worked more than 15-18 days per month and I've been in the company 10 years and I'm only 25% from the bottom of the 777 list. And I've never had a blind line except when I've missed a bidding date or forgotten altogether.

[peacekeeper]

Busbo,

BA is full of commuters, they make it work and I'm sure you can too. If you are half interested, go through the process and see what you get offered. I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with the job but you will certainly add complexity into your life. You will spend a few nights a month at a Heathrow hotel if going posh or a B+B if not, you will have a new hobby swapping trips and checking ibid and find all sorts of shortcuts to get your flight home on time. The big question when flying for a loco (which I did for many years too) is, can you keep on doing the same kind of flying until retirement? Variety is the spice of life and BA probably has as much variety as you can hope for in an airline.

If you are 320 rated, you may well find the offer is not for long haul in any case despite the current campaign.

Good luck

PK

[wiggy]

[old f*** warning]

I'm sensing there's a bit of a thought that (whatever their construction) Blindlines aren't really a problem (if indeed you perceive that they are) because you're not on them for very long.

Could I make the observation that BA is in a state of almost unheralded recruitment/pilot number expansion and many have rightly enjoyed their rapid rise up their status list in the last year, possible helped because many on Short Haul are currently stuck with engagement freezes.

At some point recruitment will slow down (hopefully not stop), and for sure engagement freezes will expire. In the past when that has happened it's not unknown for junior pilots on Long Haul fleets to drop back into Blindlines (senior internal transfers move in above them, most especially if the fleet is expanding), or simply not rise above Blindlines for the best part of a decade (as myself and a few others can testify).

I'm not saying don't join BA because of Blindlines, people do make them work, but I'd certainly be aware of how they work (post EASA), factor them into the pros and cons of joining, especially if you are a commuter. "TASS" (time assignability) is not simply a bit of padding on the line to make up credited hours up without going to work, you can get used. If you don't live locally to LHR you will need to have a plan for handling the likes of a 1759 UK time phone call out for a 0600 local report from TASS.

Above all I'd caution against the seemingly increasingly popular view that you will inevitably blow through Blindlines in a matter of months....because at some point people won't.

Wiggy

(>25 years in BA, > 8 on Blindlines...........see comments about juniority on expanding fleets.)

[/old f*** warning]

[Tay Cough]

Old f***?

Your next post will be your 3000th though.... :ok:

[wiggy]

Aaarggh...

oooh ....Thanks for the heads up. Should I expect a Pprune recognition of long and loyal service bottle of champagne to arrive in the post ......or is the long service stuff here a bit like at BA :E?????

[billybuds]

Your certificate is in the post....unframed!

[NLP]

Hi all,

I'm starting at BA soon, A320 LHR. I will be commuting from Amsterdam. Planning to stay in a hotel when I'm at LHR. Any advice with hotels or other housing options?

Thanks!

[wiggy]

NLP

A few of the Bath Road hotels, such as the Ibis, the Arora, the Premier Inns (both the "T5" one and the Bath Road one), and the Hilton Garden Inn at Hatton Cross (formerly known as Jurys Inn - handy for the Training Centre) frequently offer discount, also there are a handful of crew B&Bs near the crew car park again just off the Bath Road.

You might want to contact those hotels direct at this stage and see if they can offer anything ahead of your joining BA/before you get ID. I'd best not put any required log-ons here - once you're "in" you may be able to find out full discount details via in company intranet/BALPA forum.

[Stocious]

Either you haven't a clue what you're talking about, or your terminology is very sloppy?

Which is it?

If you live close to LGW, it can work of course. (Though everyone at Easy is paid better and works less) If you don't live close to LGW, it's unsustainable whoever you work for.

Clearly using a P instead of a C in that post means my terminology is very sloppy. Either that or I haven't a clue. Either way, I don't expect you LHR boys will change mindsets easily.

I'm not sure if the Easy guys do work less and get paid more to be honest. Ask the guys that are based at LGW that are ex-Easy (those giving up Commands as well) to see why they moved. I'm not sure why the comparison is made either - new joiners will be paid exactly the same as our own LHR colleagues. Have a look at a few recent months rosters to see how hard we're working.

It's unfair that LGW has the reputation that it seems to. My opinion only of course, having worked at LHR and LGW, and living almost midway between both it's a no-brainer for me.

[SinBin]

One thing I've been noticing with regards to Easy v BA argument, you don't seem to have many BA guys justifying why they stay at BA....

[OBK!]

One thing I've been noticing with regards to Easy v BA argument, you don't seem to have many BA guys justifying why they stay at BA....

Or why they left BA for easy

[The African Dude]

Or why they left BA for easy

Well this is very straightforward in the first instance - you can happily argue that there is no sensible starting package for an experienced pilot at easyJet. At least incomparable to the starting BA offer.

However I have to say from my personal experience that those who are happy at easyJet, living by the lake in the sunshine with part time fixed pattern rosters, simply have no interest in PPRUNE lifestyle debates and are certainly far too busy in their swimming pools to ever feel the need to justify their lifestyle choice.

Be careful the decisions you make based on a very limited and not necessarily complete survey group.

[PressTheTit]

Just fishing to see if any others are in a similar boat to myself, trying to make the last leap into the holdpool.

Aug, passed Day1. Sep, passed Day2. Since then I have been trying to get a SIM assessment slot but to no avail. I know an awful lot of hiring has taken place in this period but as a NTR ex mil mate without qualifying experience for the Long Haul slots I guess I'm pretty far down the list.

Last week my application was put on hold pending the next round of NTR recruitment, however no timescale given.

Rumours of huge recruitment are welcome, rumours of more NTR recruitment even more welcome.

Congratulations to all that have made it !!! :D

[Stocious]

However I have to say from my personal experience that those who are happy at easyJet, living by the lake in the sunshine with part time fixed pattern rosters, simply have no interest in PPRUNE lifestyle debates and are certainly far too busy in their swimming pools to ever feel the need to justify their lifestyle choice.


There are plenty of those types in BA as well!

[4468]

Stocious
I don't expect you LHR boys will change mindsets easily.
Oh dear. Did it ever occur to you that many of "you LHR boys" actually used to be 'LGW boys'? (and girls??)

You know a little of BA. That's perfectly understandable. Many have been on the same path you are currently on. They moved on. As will you.

[mr ripley]

you mention of good quality of life but I'd like to hear from LH people who've been in a few years.

I've been in 10 years, joining as a DEP on 777.

As probably mentioned, lifestyle means different things to different people. My preference is flying East with the odd Caribbean and South American trip for variety. I rarely go to the US, maybe twice a year. I can achieve this easily and I am about 35% from the bottom of the list.

Swapping and sector swapping is very popular and with luck you can re-write your whole roster.

Blind lines only by bidding mistakes, I was wiped recently as I underbid and was given 3x5 day trips for the month.

Can always get leave in summer, but have not really tried for Christmas.

Have the seniority to achieve Airbus SH captaincy but would think about maybe 787 instead, just for a change, but equally happy on the 777.

When I last looked we had 50 different destinations and there is usually enough time to make the most of any place.

My choice to go East, others like going West or beach or golf or kite surf of time at home or weekends at home. Consequently used to the time change, can sleep down route and have no issues forgetting about work and relaxing in the UK.

[Stocious]

Oh dear. Did it ever occur to you that many of "you LHR boys" actually used to be 'LGW boys'? (and girls??)

You know a little of BA. That's perfectly understandable. Many have been on the same path you are currently on. They moved on. As will you.

Thanks for the education.

[Buter]

LGW...

Isn't that what they put next to that extra 5 tons of fuel they load? I've never actually known what that stood for.

I always thought it was like some kind of soccer chant. You know, like "Let's Go Worldwide", and here's lots of gas to do it...

BA: great for some, ****e for others. Kinda like everything else in life.

Best of luck to everyone trying to get in.

Cheers

Buter

[whimsahoy]

Hi all,

I've been in the holdpool since before the summer 767 rated, unfrozen but havnt quite got the hours for long haul. I doubt I will make the hours up by the time I'm due to drop out. Can anyone shed any light on whether short haul recruitment may kick off again for non rated people?
Cheers

[bex88]

Pick up the bone to LC or LA. Sure they would be happy to talk to you

[lfrk]

Hi Guy's

I am french, mid 30's and A380 F/O with Ek, expecting left seat within the next year.
Looks like that BA is coming to DXB for roadshows to find type rated 380 FO.
I am seriously considering trying to join, even if it means a big pay cut and a long time on the right seat.
Couple of questions if someone has the answers that would be cool.

-Is there a lot of guys commuting to france or south of Europe?

-Salaray when joining is around 54000 £ what about after 4-5 years. Cannot find the pay scale anywhere.

-Upgrade on the 380 or LH, 10-12-15years?

Ek is good to me so far, but I don't see myself and familly staying here more than another 5 years.

[Tay Cough]

Hi Guy's

I am french, mid 30's and A380 F/O with Ek, expecting left seat within the next year.
Looks like that BA is coming to DXB for roadshows to find type rated 380 FO.
I am seriously considering trying to join, even if it means a big pay cut and a long time on the right seat.
Couple of questions if someone has the answers that would be cool.

-Is there a lot of guys commuting to france or south of Europe?

-Salaray when joining is around 54000 £ what about after 4-5 years. Cannot find the pay scale anywhere.

-Upgrade on the 380 or LH, 10-12-15years?

Ek is good to me so far, but I don't see myself and familly staying here more than another 5 years.

I'll let someone else discuss the pay points.

French commuters? Dozens, probably hundreds. If you include cabin crew, possibly more.

Left seat A380. Plan on twenty. It's a smallish fleet and those skippers who are there will want to stay. Many new Longhaul captains are aged around 40 so will be there for a long time.

[Hotel Mode]

Long Haul FO increment is just under £3000 per year.

Commuting no problem on the 380. Of the daily departures there are 3 FO slots on 3 day trips (will be 5 for part of summer), 6 on 4 day, and 6 on 5 day. So the majority of trips are longish, most get back early, none too late for flights to France, and only 1 of the reports (2 in summer) isn't commutable from France on the same day.

You aren't tied to A380 for upgrade, but, it will be long time if you don't want to fly another type. A350 may be less, and A320 certainly much much sooner.

[Right Engine]

Long Haul FO increment is just under £3000 per year.

Are you sure? With The 34 Pay points? Or are you talking about your contract here?

[Flying Wild]

Anyone who attended assessment day 1 last week heard back yet?

[bex88]

It's about 1500 on the new pay points

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Commuting no problem on the 380. Of the daily departures there are 3 FO slots on 3 day trips (will be 5 for part of summer), 6 on 4 day, and 6 on 5 day. So the majority of trips are longish, most get back early, none too late for flights to France, and only 1 of the reports (2 in summer) isn't commutable from France on the same day

Hotel Mode
Might need a read up on the new Crew Members responsibilities under EASA and FRMS.
If your commuting in and operating say in the evening to HKG if something happened you might be in some bother....
:\

[DDobinpilot]

Hey guys,

Merry Christmas! Just wondered if anyone has been able to find any good software in order to practice the computer based ECAM tester we now have to do on day 1? The one with TCAS problems etc.. I have been looking around online and can't really find anything that would be of any use.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

SinBin,

We stay at BA to fly with you mate :E

Have a great Xmas in your new gaff :ok:

[Doug E Style]

Apparently, the number of boys being christened "Nigel" is at an all-time low; only ten in the UK last year. I wonder if BA's recruitment team are worried.

[Tay Cough]

The current campaign is also expecting to recruit a few named Nigella. := ;)

[Airbus Unplugged]

No doubt the prospective Nigels will have read all about 'new shorthaul' arriving February.

Bidline has been 'switched off' for shorthaul, and you can now have 12hr 4 sector days and 10hr nightstops.

Think very carefully my friends, this is not going to be pretty.

[Juan Tugoh]

Bidline has been 'switched off' for shorthaul,

Pure and unadulterated horse poop. Bidline cannot be "switched off", it is part of the contract and the industrial limits cannot be overridden just because EASA has changed the FTL's. Any changes to the duty rig must be negotiated with BALPA. The most limiting of BLRs or the EASA FTL's will be the worst case. We are bidding for February at the moment and there is very little difference in SH. There will be bigger changes for LH where Back to Backs are no longer being rostered, either voluntarily or otherwise. Yes, there will be changes but no worse than every other company is facing and actually with a lot more protections than most.

Make yourself miserable with doom laden scenarios if you must but try to keep some element of reality in there - or just leave the profession, you will not be missed.

[no sponsor]

Unless I've missed something, which is entirely possible, bidline rules have not been replaced, or modified. 10.4.1 still applies.

[Arewerunning]

Hallo folks!

I wonder, if they offer me LH can I later on bid for SH command or I am somehow freeze for 5 years on type?

thx

[eckhard]

SH lines for Feb look exactly the same as those for Jan, apart from the addition of some ORY standover days :)

[chocolateracer]

Hallo folks!

I wonder, if they offer me LH can I later on bid for SH command or I am somehow freeze for 5 years on type?

thx

Yes you can bid whenever you want. You will also incur a 5 year engagement freeze. This is for BA's benefit only. If they want to honour a bid of yours within your 5 year freeze then they'll move you. I believe what happens here is that you'd incur another 5 year freeze (for your new type and called an equipment freeze) plus any remaining from your engagement freeze.

Good luck!

[stranotipo]

I keep getting this. Any idea how to solve it?

RefUKLHR2722Region UK - HeathrowLocation UK - London - Heathrow T5 Map & Directions (http://gs11.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_ba01.asp?s=4A515F4E5C565A1A&locationid=3336,5698347725&key=73841269&c=875846984056&pagestamp=seupjwrgwjmpxivyru)Category Flying Opportunities
Unfortunately, the job you are looking for is no longer being advertised.

[Jumbo2]

Stranotipo at the moment there is no active vacancy on the website hence why you can't find it.
However with the forecasted NEP numbers for 2017 I would be suprised if there won't be one online in the near future.

[Luke_Stern]

First things first, I have to put my questions (below) into context: I'm thinking about joining BA via the FPP. I know this is DEP thread but w/ Search I've gathered this is *the* thread in which many BA FOs & CPTs regularly stop by, so I hope some of you could help me by answering my questions.

(1) I read BA is one of few airlines that offers TRI (maybe also TRE?) position also to FOs. Teaching is one of my passions. If I could combine SH flying w/ TR instructing, that would only boost my motivation to join BA. Questions:
(1.1) How senior & how much flying hours does a pilot at BA have to have to be sent to TRI course and start working as a TR instructor?
(1.2) My goal for instructing isn't to become rich. OTOH, South East England is one of the most expensive parts of the world to live in. A cadet salary for the first 7 years is substantially lower than the DEP salary. So I have to ask is the work of a TRI (later TRE?) @ BA extra financially remunerated? If affirmative, how higher is the salary?

(2) Roster. I understand junior FOs at LGW don't have any influence over their roster at beginning. I'd like to know how senior would one have to be to successfully bid for following roster: From July till September work any roster. From October till June bid for time off - each week 2 specific workdays off (i.e. 2 predefined consecutive or non-consecutive regular workdays from Monday till Friday) and fly all other workdays and whole weekends, e.g.: every Monday&Thursday OFF and other 5 days of the week ON. Can a junior FO get such a roster in 2 or 3 years from joining BA? If not, after how many years?

I know I'd like to fly for BA, but I have to consider all aspects of the job. I'd appreciate honest and truthful answers. Thanks.

[mr ripley]

Ok, my go at answering your Qs. Consider this a holding response until, somebody who is more experienced in the subject areas replies.
1.1 I think you need at least 1500 hrs multi and there probably is a recency experience on the Airbus too. Its also very competitive to attain a training appointment and takes quite a few months to get on line.
1.2 Yes it is, but you will also be doing less flying in your training months and although that is partly covered by new pay arrangements, part of it isn't.
2 Almost impossible. Is this for a course or to play sport?

[Luke_Stern]

Mr ripley, thanks for a prompt response. I raised the question about roster because later in life I'd like to study another university degree (either to get a second BEng or upgrade my current BSc with an MSc; as a mature student via part-time mode of study, online/longdistance is not an option) ... How about 6 or 7 years down the line? Would I have better chances then? Or, maybe if I'd switch base or go LH?

[Stocious]

(1) I read BA is one of few airlines that offers TRI (maybe also TRE?) position also to FOs. Teaching is one of my passions. If I could combine SH flying w/ TR instructing, that would only boost my motivation to join BA. Questions:
(1.1) How senior & how much flying hours does a pilot at BA have to have to be sent to TRI course and start working as a TR instructor?
(1.2) My goal for instructing isn't to become rich. OTOH, South East England is one of the most expensive parts of the world to live in. A cadet salary for the first 7 years is substantially lower than the DEP salary. So I have to ask is the work of a TRI (later TRE?) @ BA extra financially remunerated? If affirmative, how higher is the salary?

(2) Roster. I understand junior FOs at LGW don't have any influence over their roster at beginning. I'd like to know how senior would one have to be to successfully bid for following roster: From July till September work any roster. From October till June bid for time off - each week 2 specific workdays off (i.e. 2 predefined consecutive or non-consecutive regular workdays from Monday till Friday) and fly all other workdays and whole weekends, e.g.: every Monday&Thursday OFF and other 5 days of the week ON. Can a junior FO get such a roster in 2 or 3 years from joining BA? If not, after how many years?

1) You could apply for TAH within BA. Realistically speaking for FPP to Training FO could be quite a leap for the first few years, so if that's your goal, I'd aim for it as part of my '5 year plan' and consider myself fortunate if it comes sooner.

2) It's not true that junior LGW get no control at all. The reverse is probably true - a junior FO at LGW will probably get more from his bid that an junior blindline holder at LHR. It is very possible to bid for every Monday and Thursday off at LGW, and you'd probably stand a decent chance of getting most of them off as it's probably not high on everybody else's bids! You probably wouldn't get them all off however because of the need for two consecutive days in eight etc rules, which tends to block work together.

Perhaps those more experienced in BA will be able to tell us whether a training FO appointment must be based at LHR?

[Tay Cough]

Yep, Training FO is LHR only.

[bex88]

Hi you ask some great questions but I think your putting the cart before the horse here and that will only pile on the stress and pressure.

The short answer is that BA can offer you everything you want but not necessarily at the speed in which you would want. TRI has a legal requirement of 1500hrs on multi pilot aircraft. You would be hard pressed to see it within 5 years and IMHO our trainers are generally very experienced. That said FPP guys are the top 2% in theory so why not. Seniority has little to do with it. It's down to you actually applying and then going through the interviews. If your suitable then you will be given the opportunity. Trainers work very hard in their training months and yes they get more money (not much more) but they loose out in duty pay so it's about even from what I have heard.

Rostering.......probably achievable if you put effort into your bidding and trading. If it's because of something at which you excel (sports) or you are undertaking further education the company are generally quite receptive to requests. Unless it's something like "I need every Saturday and Sunday off and I can't start before 10am on Mondays"

My suggestion is go for it. Come and join us. When it's not everything you want you can have a good old bitch about it. You'll fit right in then ;)

[3Greens]

I applied and got a training FO job on the 757 3 years after joining as a cadet. Im
no ace of the base, so it its perfectly feasible.

[Luke_Stern]

Wow, you guys are great. Thanks to everyone for providing so much info.

In the meantime my 2nd post from Dec 28th (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/538503-ba-direct-entry-pilot-120.html#post9222327) has been approved by moderators and is now visible. To reiterate, my motive for roster question is further education.

About FO TRI: I take it it's a viable option then. But at LHR. And at least 3 to 5 years after joining ... That's all I need to know. :)

Onto roster:
@Stocious: The "Monday&Thursday off" was one example. You've mentioned the "need for two consecutive days in eight". I don't yet know the ins and outs of the LGW bidding system, so I understand this as "necessary 2 consecutive days off in 8 days time frame" rule. W/o annoying anyone w/ university timetables & attendance, let me say the 2 consecutive workdays off would also work for me ... Hence for example: one year from October till June I would gladly bid for Mondays&Tuesdays off and other 5 days on; and next year bid Thursdays&Fridays off and other 5 days on, etc. ... (1.) Would I stand better chances winning such a bid than previous example "Monday&Thursday off" ? ... (2.) Generally speaking, how junior/senior does a LGW cadet/FO have to be to successfully bid any above described 'workdays off' rosters? - Already 1st year or 2, 3 or more years after joining BA?
@bex88: We'll always find sth. to b!tch about. ;) But for now I'm really glad to know BA considers education as a favorable circumstance and are receptive to requests for bids/trades/swaps. One more reason I like BA.

Thanks for all the help!

P.S.: Hopefully, this post 'goes through' sooner than previous one. :}

[hunterboy]

I would add that BA considers further education as a benefit if they think it will be of benefit to BA when you graduate. If you wanted to do a course in basket weaving, you may find that they are less helpful.

[Stocious]

You can change what you bid for every month at LGW if you so choose. You'd stand a reasonably good chance of getting a number of consecutive weekdays off each month right from the start as it's not a popular bidding strategy, but you wouldn't get them all, and there would be no guarantee further than the roster you've just received!

[P0tt3r]

Is it possible to "port" an existing pension pot into BARP accrued at your previous employer?

[P0tt3r]

Thanks for that Ten Dollar. Makes sense to me to try and keep it all in one place, but best to know my options.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

You can but you have to wait 2 years before you can port your other pension/s into BARP. Not sure why, just the rules of the scheme I guess.

Happy New Year All!

[P0tt3r]

Ok, I'll need to find an interim measure if that's the case. Thanks.

[Right Engine]

SH lines for Feb look exactly the same as those for Jan, apart from the addition of some ORY standover days :)

Ermm. Nope.

Many trips that under the old CAA FDP's are now in excess.
But ok under EASA.

Check out TRIP 2137, 2144, 2455. All at least 0:30 into discretion under the older, safer regime.

Trip 2487. 04:15 uk hotel pick up in ATH. ATH-LHR-PSA-LHR.
Park at LHR at 17:00.

These are bad days before you even start.

[RexBanner]

Well if that's true you can only imagine what easyJet are going to try to get away with then. This is not a BA issue, it's an industry-wide one. Look at Wizz Air where you'll have (at least) two of those kind of days in a row.

[eckhard]

Right Engine,

Thanks; didn't notice those trips! Only three out of many but I'm sure that there are more lurking. On the whole, I still think that the total package isn't too different.

Happy new year :)

[Tay Cough]

It would probably be good to take even more care than normal before deciding whether to exercise discretion in future. Especially as the onus is even more firmly on the head of the captain.

Taking your nightstop kit should become SOP from February.

[Right Engine]

Right Engine,

Thanks; didn't notice those trips! Only three out of many but I'm sure that there are more lurking. On the whole, I still think that the total package isn't too different.

Happy new year :)

I wish it was '3 out of many'. I got to about 20 trips and gave up looking.. This is in a low CAP month. Dread to think what trip constructions will look like when the Summer charters start!

[Twiglet1]

Right Engine
Its well known that Easa FTL is more advantageous for morning departures but not so much for afternoon. The issue of previous'safer regime,' can only be perceived at this time - the new fdp's have been around for many years in Europe under the guise of sub part Q - flown by many more airlines than left in the UK. This offers UK airlines a level playing field.

My questions to you;

What was the name of the last decent sized UK AOC to start up?

If a BA crew member can fly in from home say AMS, hang around for4 hours then go fly for 3 sectors or a 2 crew flight stateside - if your that concerned over the longer FDP in the morning are you willing to comment on the commuting question ?

[Juan Tugoh]

Someone doing a silly commute is not germane to this issue, whether it be an air commute or a drive from Inverness to LHR prior to operating a service.

[pomme pilot]

Hi,

Im due to start with BA soon, and have decided to move South, as I don't want to commute too far.

Do many people commute from the Oxford area? If so how do you find it? Ive been offered a long haul position.

Secondly, how do Standby duties work from LGW? I understand for LHR it is 2 hours to report to the car park. Is it the same to the LGW car park?

Thanks in advance!!

[Juan Tugoh]

Lots of crew live in the Oxford area, it is an easy drive down the M40. It is well within the 2 hours to the carpark for a Home Standby - only SH do airport standby. There are no standbys for LGW as such unless you are SH, the 777 does fly from LGW but all pilots for the 777 are LHR based and special rules apply to LGW reports, so if called from sby for LGW they can still only expect you to be at 2 hours to the LHR carpark - they may ask you to try to be at LGW asap but it is not a requirement.

[wiggy]

pomme pilot

With reference to the specific question of being LHR based and being called out for an LGW trip of home standby, It's worth emphasising the point Juan made - there is no time limit, you are simply required to use your "best endeavours" to report at LGW at the earliest opportunity. It's definitely a rule worth being aware of the first time you do reserve since it's just possible somebody might ring you up and try to persuade you otherwise....;)

Good luck on the course.

[pomme pilot]

Thank you again for the info!

Hopefully all will go well with the course and I'll be able to offer the same help in the future!:O

[giggitygiggity]

Sorry if this has been asked before but it relates specifically to the DEP long haul recruitment campaign recently.

To anyone who has applied, how long before you got either an invite/no thanks from them after submitting an application? It closed a few weeks ago, it's understandably a pretty busy time of year (or perhaps, more likely not so busy) but my application still says 'submitted' and nothing else. I'm going on holiday at the end of Jan and don't want to get caught out should I be so lucky.

[Jwscud]

Can anyone (PM if necessary) give me an idea what blind lines might look like on the 747 for someone at the bottom of the seniority list? How many trips per month and so on?

If anyone can see the rosters with the new EASA FTLs applied, so much the better.

[back to Boeing]

The 747 is a slightly special case as there are "seeded" blind lines. Ie one long trip (the seed) and the rest are constructed by the company. At worst you'll do 5 trips but BA are pretty bad at constructing lines so probably less. My easiest month was 1 trip and then I did an overtime trip and I had a week's leave.

No one can show you an EASA roster as phase 1 bidding for Feb only closed this morning and Feb is the first month we'll be fully (haw haw) compliant with EASA. Most people on other fora are less than confident the show will stay on the road but that's another matter.

[Max Angle]

It would probably be good to take even more care than normal before deciding whether to exercise discretion in futureNo care required at all, my answer will be no.

[Right Engine]

Right Engine
Its well known that Easa FTL is more advantageous for morning departures but not so much for afternoon. The issue of previous'safer regime,' can only be perceived at this time - the new fdp's have been around for many years in Europe under the guise of sub part Q - flown by many more airlines than left in the UK. This offers UK airlines a level playing field.

My questions to you;

What was the name of the last decent sized UK AOC to start up?

If a BA crew member can fly in from home say AMS, hang around for4 hours then go fly for 3 sectors or a 2 crew flight stateside - if your that concerned over the longer FDP in the morning are you willing to comment on the commuting question ?

For your first question, Don't know. For your second, I don't commute but for what it's worth I think doing an extra 2 hours duty after an 05:55 report that used to be called 'Discretion' is not safe. And to be rostered it consecutively (and legally) is going to result in more tiredness related errors.

[Approaching Minima]

fly4more, stage 1 is aptitude tests before stage 2 interviews, although you could say submitting the application itself is stage 1!

For aptitude tests I highly recommend "assessmentday" and "skytest" websites. Apparently the latter has had the latest BA test added to it.

[Borg]

Has anyone heard of any swimmers moving from the pool recently?

[DunlopDanglerUK]

Has anyone heard of any swimmers moving from the pool recently?

I was wondering the same thing. I've been sat in there since Oct. 320 rated 3400 hrs. My sim buddy got the 380 back in Nov and a friend who passed the sim a week after me the 320.

[EZY_FR]

Hi guys :). I am looking to apply for the BA FPP when it reopens later this year. I got to the final stages of the process last year, only to fail as a result of the two written tests and the BA aptitude test. I know this is the DEP thread, but since the final phase of the FPP process is similar to the DEP route, would you be able to point me in the right direction for optimal preparation?

[Nil further]

Rex Banner . "You can only wonder what Easyjet are going to try and get away with"

For the moment , Easyjet are rostering to CAP371 . Largely as a result of united action by the pilot community. An indicative ballot of the pilots indicated overwhelming support for industrial action over the safety implications of EASA FTL.

The matter is now at ACAS , the Easyjet pilot community has more experience of FRMS and the light touch of self regulation than most , we are concerned .

(Sorry about the thread creep)

[RexBanner]

Nil further yes I'm aware of what's going on at easyJet and fully support the pilots in their fight against the implementation of EASA regs. In fact it would have a positive impact to the rest of the industry if the union is successful. I'm sceptical however as to the odds of long term success.

I've worked EASA regs at another low cost operator and can certainly vouch for how utterly senseless and dangerous they are. At said operator (I'm not afraid to say Wizz Air) we could check in at 05:30 local for a 4 sector day with a total duty time of 12:15h. Not only that but you could be doing this after another four sector early (11hr+) the day before! Needless to say, the flights being carried out WITHOUT controlled rest were the exception rather than the rule.

One particular week of five earlies on the spin (including at least one of such duties) I remember as PM feeling my head nodding in the cruise then managing to rouse myself sufficiently to look across at the PF whose head was doing exactly the same thing! How we haven't been able as a pilot community to collectively fight this in an effective way is an utter disgrace.

My point is though that the genie has been let out of the bottle now and there is enormous commercial pressure for easyJet to follow suit. If such previously fatiguing duties are now defined as legal then easyJet will try to roster them, make no mistake.

It's going to take a smoking hole in the ground to sort this out ultimately (and unfortunately) but even then managing to pin the blame squarely on the role of fatigue in any accident is going to prove very problematic and difficult. Look at the Colgan Air Q400 crash in Buffalo, screamed fatigue all day long. What do the FAA do? Implement a 1500hr experience rule for FO's! Irrelevant but it provided the window dressing that something had been changed.

Sorry again for the thread drift guys.

[RHINO]

Well said!

[EMB-145LR]

To be fair to the FAA, Rex, they did also implement new rest rules and reduced duty times after the Colgan crash. While flying for the regionals in the US, I noticed a significant improvement in my alertness once these rules had been brought in. The fact that EASA have essentially gone the opposite way is most alarming.

[Approaching Minima]

fly4more: you are provided with pencil and paper for the maths test. No man and a suitcase test anymore. The cross-hairs one with the keypad to enter the number and the coloured shape, with hits and misses recorded.

For verbal reasoning I strongly recommend www.assessmentday.co.uk/aptitudetests_verbal and SkyTest for the computer based ones.

[Twiglet1]

Nil further /Rex
As you know sub part q has been around for some time and LCC and State airlines have been working it for many years. If Easyjet use EASA I doubt they would apply it with a free hand , more likely in controlled way which with their FRMS they have no option but to. E.g x amount of flights @ xx hour s in the week. You also conveniently forget to mention that the limits on afternoons are less under EASA so there are some small swings the other way.
This should not be an industrial discussion full! Stop

[RexBanner]

So ignore the clearly fatiguing (read dangerous) examples I have shown and then give EASA FTL's the all clear because a minority proportion of afternoon duties (which is not the time that the majority of people feel tired at work) now have shorter limits. Great argument.

By the way there is an airline I have named in this thread who ARE operating EASA with a free hand with no scheduling agreement or FRMS system who are happily flying around in EU airspace unimpeded putting significant pressure on the bottom line of easyJet (at least in the accountants' eyes) who in turn influence British Airways.

[Nil further]

Twiglet1

Unless you are an easyjet pilot flying full time easyjet rosters then you can have no possible understanding of the fatigue issues in easyjet .

I note from your previous posts that you appear to be some sort of fan or apologist for the EASA FTL regime .

EasyJet pilots are not asking for more money or to work less .We are asking for an FTL scheme that has at least some science in its workings to remain in place as opposed to the politically and commercially driven mess that is EASA

As for FRMS , it is noble concept and if allowed to do its job free of commercial pressure and tweaking then it could be a devastatingly effective tool .......

Apologies epic thread creep. Chief Brody below is correct , time to vacate !

[Chief Brody]

Nil Further / Twiglet

It's time to vacate this thread with your Easy FTL back and forth...

[VxVy]

In terms of bidding , I have a few questions for any Long haul (preferably 777) pilots;

What is the least popular destinations and what are the most popular ones for first officers?

Even with a blind line, are you allowed to trade with other FO's?

Even though there is no guarantee of success, can you specify a particular start time or end time for a particular day? (In theory could you request for example; Saturday nights from 6pm onwards, or request to work every Sunday)

Do you also get to bid for your annual recurrent sim training slots?


Thanks guys!

[P0tt3r]

Nil Further / Twiglet

It's time to vacate this thread with your Easy FTL back and forth...

Yes, and Rex.

Back on topic.

Is the Fixed Flight Pay 1 or 2 months in arrears?
Is the £3.39 "away from base pay" 1 or 2 months in arrears?
Are either/both payable for ground school/sim?

It's 2 weeks leave in winter, and 2 in summer. Are they 7 day blocks?
Same question re the "duty free" weeks, and do you have to be contactable in the "duty free" weeks?

Thanks.

[wiggy]

As far as the 777 is since I'm not an FO I can't tell you their preferred destinations other than the obvious ones such as SIN and EZE ..

Anyhow to answer to some of your other questions...

Even with a blind line, are you allowed to trade with other FO's?

AFAIK Yes but I'm not an expert on that - I believe there might be problems with credit transfer if you're trying to trade with a Tripline holder.

Even though there is no guarantee of success, can you specify a particular start time or end time for a particular day? (In theory could you request for example; Saturday nights from 6pm onwards, or request to work every Sunday)

You can certainly submit blindline preferences but at the moment at least Pre-Ops (scheduling) build the Blindlines from the selection of whatever trips are left unallocated after all the Triplines have been put together, so their/your choice is limited. Best you might expect is a result from a broad preference such as "long trips preferred", or "LHR trips preferred". I certainly think you'd be very lucky if Pre-Ops actively considered a preference for start/end times....but you can always ask....

Do you also get to bid for your annual recurrent sim training slots?

Annual? I wish! It's six monthly - Yes, you can submit a preference for certain days, and training admin might try to comply with your wishes, but again no guarantees - you often get something out of the slots that are left after they've rostered those on courses....

[RexBanner]

Excuse me P0tt3r I actually tried to relate my comments on the introduction of EASA FTLs to the impact on the industry and British Airways (in the context of a previous comment from someone implying that it was a bad decision to join BA as a result of the implementation of EASA FTLs as if the rest of the industry were somehow immune!).

The comments regarding how EASA was being dealt with specifically and exclusively involving easyJet were nothing to do with me. But as you rightly say, it's time to move back to the recruitment theme..

[Carnage Matey!]

Is the Fixed Flight Pay 1 or 2 months in arrears?
Is the £3.39 "away from base pay" 1 or 2 months in arrears?

Fixed flight pay is paid every month so I don't think it's in arrears. TAFB pay is one month in arrears.

Are either/both payable for ground school/sim?

No.


It's 2 weeks leave in winter, and 2 in summer. Are they 7 day blocks?

Its one 7 day and one 6 day block, both start on a Saturday.

Same question re the "duty free" weeks, and do you have to be contactable in the "duty free" weeks?

7 day blocks and you are not contactable. You can work in a DFW if you wish but not in Leave.

[P0tt3r]

Thanks Carnage.

Does leave attract "wrap days"? And do the duty free weeks?

[Tay Cough]

Its one 7 day and one 6 day block, both start on a Saturday.

Nearly. ;)

Two seven-day leave blocks starting on a Saturday, with associated wrap days.

[no sponsor]

Holidays: can only be taken in blocks of 7 days. Always start on a Saturday. You get wrap days (days supposedly free of duty) either before or after the 7 days. Before, then you get 3 wrap days prior to the Saturday OR 4 days after i.e. you only get one set of wrap days on a 7 day block. If you manage to get 14 days off, then you'll get 3 wrap days at the beginning and 4 off at the end, unless you bid otherwise.

[P0tt3r]

Holidays: can only be taken in blocks of 7 days. Always start on a Saturday. You get wrap days (days supposedly free of duty) either before or after the 7 days. Before, then you get 3 wrap days prior to the Saturday OR 4 days after i.e. you only get one set of wrap days on a 7 day block. If you manage to get 14 days off, then you'll get 3 wrap days at the beginning and 4 off at the end, unless you bid otherwise.

Ok. So each leave block is 10-11 days including wrap days (at one end), and may or may not cover 2 weekends.

Very useful thanks.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Since it does not appear that ground school duties attract any duty payments, can someone confirm whether the type rating sim duties do?

Just trying to do some financial planning for the next couple of months :ok:

[GS-Alpha]

The hourly payment you are referring to is called TAFB and stands for 'time away from base'. If you are a Heathrow based pilot, and you are doing your ground school and simulator training at Heathrow, then you are not leaving base.

[bucket_and_spade]

The flying pay allowance is paid from day one with the company. It was in my first pay packet earlier last year.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks bucket_and_spade :ok:

[P0tt3r]

The flying pay allowance is paid from day one with the company. It was in my first pay packet earlier last year.

Excellent. That makes sense to me.

[GS-Alpha]

Permafrost, sorry if I misled you there. You asked about duty based pay and despite its name, the 'flying pay allowance' is not a duty based payment. You'll receive it every month regardless of whether you fly, have a conversion course, are off sick or on leave.

[glipglop]

So I've just had my uniform fitting, and the shirts feel absolutely massive. Any idea if they are allowed to be altered? If so, any recommendations?

Apologies if too far off topic.

[wiggy]

Congratulations, getting any size or shape of shirt out of uniform stores is a major victory.

Don't worry about altering shirts for size and fit, nobody is going to check. The main uniform crimes to steer clear off are firstly not wearing a hat and secondly don't sling your backpack over your shoulder as you walk through T5...

And with that, the dot you see is me off running for cover :E :E

[glipglop]

Haha, perfect, cheers Wiggy! Appreciate the help.

[bleed leak]

Do you bid for if you want wrap days before or after the 7 days leave or is it lucky dip? Also any wrap days on the DFW or is that just 7 days starting Saturday?

Cheers
BL

[Permafrost_ATPL]

No worries GS-Alpha, all clear now. My current outfit uses duty payments regardless of type of duty, hence my question.

Been wearing ill-fitting shirt for ten years now, I was hoping that was about to end wiggy! Oh well :}

[king surf]

Besides, a manager has to get close enough to read your name badge because no one knows who you are!!

[back to Boeing]

Besides, a manager has to get close enough to read your name badge because no one knows who you are!!

That's why we nick the name badges that are pinned up in the bag store isn't it? I've been known as CSL Sharon for 6 months now.

[Jumbo2]

Hahahaha, nice one Sharon!!

[fly4more]

any chance we can knock this esoteric nonsense on its head? Thank you.

If i cared wether i was paid £ 2.93p per hour or £3.42 I dont think BA would be my choice. You're never going to be rich on todays TnCs.

[Buter]

If I'm being brutally honest, I don't have much formal education, so I don't really know what "esoteric nonsense" means, but this is the most amusing bit of the thread in many, many moons.

If 2.93 vs 3.42 doesn't interest you, save yourself the aggro of applying, dude, cuz that's the kind of $hit that battles are fought over at BA.

Best wishes with your application and your career.

Cheers

Buter

[wiggy]

Buter

I think it means "sweating the small stuff"..and yes, it is indeed " the kind of $hit that battles are fought over at BA."

[Toastal]

Mate on the 380 at EK just advised me that there might be a small window of opportunity to go DEC 320 at Lgw later this year. Told him to keep smoking the fat one and stay out of the sun :{

[SinBin]

No doubt with a seasonal contract too!:E

[Right Engine]

Why shouldn't there be DEC Captains at LGW? If no one's applying and there are vacancies, it can't be ruled out?

[hunterboy]

[QUOTE]Why shouldn't there be DEC Captains at LGW? If no one's applying and there are vacancies, it can't be ruled out?/QUOTE]
Maybe its a symptom of the poor T&C's down at LGW? At what stage would you start objecting to new pilots joining on inferior T&C's to you? When they start paying to fly?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Mate on the 380 at EK just advised me that there might be a small window of opportunity to go DEC 320 at Lgw later this year. Told him to keep smoking the fat one and stay out of th

Strange things are happening in BA at the moment. Personally I wouldn't rule anything out. The new CEO has some "interesting plans" rumour has it. Watch this space...

[chocolateracer]

Strange things are happening in BA at the moment. Personally I wouldn't rule anything out. The new CEO has some "interesting plans" rumour has it. Watch this space...

LGW becoming a UK Vueling base.

[RexBanner]

Why can't people get it through their heads that, although Vueling, Iberia and BA are part of the same group (IAG), they are completely separate companies with different business models etc! I know it's a rumour network but the scaremongering on here is quite frankly something ridiculous. I think the likely things to be happening are the removal of the complimentary bar on short haul and the outsourcing of engineering etc not completely changing the way short haul operates.


Isn't it a rather lazy rumour anyway? New BA CEO is ex Vueling so BA Short Haul simply has to be turning into Vueling!

[GS-Alpha]

I think a stick to beat senior first officers into taking short haul commands is far more likely. A reduction in the pay point freeze would do it. Bring it down to paypoint 5 and then open up a supplementary bid and the problem will be solved overnight. In my opinion, if they start employing DECs, the entire sytem will break down resulting in far too many undesirable consequences for the company.

[Amigo South]

GS-Alpha - they'll need to sort out the failure rate of LH SFOs coming over to the 320 for their commands first. It's over 50% - allegedly!

[Hotel Mode]

GS-Alpha - they'll need to sort out the failure rate of LH SFOs coming over to the 320 for their commands first. It's over 50% - allegedly!

Instead of repeating dumb rumours without checking why not look at ibid C32's rosters from a few months ago? See who was converting and now see which of them aren't on the status list anymore.

There are very very few.

The fact the shorthaul operation hasn't collapsed ought to be a bit of clue. They'd be at least 50 Captains short.

[Hand Solo]

Quite! The real stats don't support such a claim, and how would one explain the right to left on type failure rate?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Can't say I've looked at this in my relatively short time in the company but as an aside, my previous operator had a 67% failure rate and were proud of it. The mind boggles! They've since re-written the command assessment process into yet another shambles and are paying a heavy price with people leaving in their droves.

I hope this isn't the road BA are going down. It's a grim path leading to some painful places for all involved!

Sorry, I'm adding to the drift off topic here. Back to the subject at hand, I hear recruitment numbers for 2016 have been upped to north of 400! It's going to be an interesting year if that's true.

Evening All

2W2R

[Tay Cough]

Why shouldn't there be DEC Captains at LGW? If no one's applying and there are vacancies, it can't be ruled out?

Of course it can't and is entirely feasible if there are insufficient suitably qualified individuals already on board.

It came quite close in the late 90s for EOG on the old Dan Dare contract. Suitably experienced folks were getting commands with around a year or so in the company. Strangely, the EOG contract changed for the better fairly shortly afterwards, later becoming SHaG.... :oh:

BA have always recruited "Captains" (appreciate that can be seen as a cliche). In short, your seniority allows you to bid for a command. If you are senior enough, you then do the command course on your chosen fleet. IF you pass, you become a Captain. Most do. Some don't.

67% of candidates failing is a good selling point if you're not trying to recruit people to pass it in the first place...... :hmm:

[flyer101]

Hi guys, I've just been offered the dep long haul assessment for next month. Wondering if anyone has done this recently (December/January) and can share anything they recall regarding the latest Maths/English/Aptitude. Cheers a lot.

[P0tt3r]

Hi guys, I've just been offered the dep long haul assessment for next month. Wondering if anyone has done this recently (December/January) and can share anything they recall regarding the latest Maths/English/Aptitude. Cheers a lot.

I don't think the DEP process has changed at all recently, and the process for DEP long haul will be the same as for all other DEP.
There's lots of information on stage 1 in this thread and the previous one, but it's the numerical and verbal reasoning, and the 2 current aptitude tests (crosshairs/numbers/shapes, and the multitasking/capacity exercise where you take radio calls/program the fmc/monitor systems/action an "ecam").

[Dave]

I think a major contributor to Longhaul SFO's not bidding for Shorthaul command has to be the NAPS pension issues (and thats not BA's doing it's the Government's).....

Why would you become a shorthaul captain to create a ~£300,000-350,000 pension liability (i.e. you OWE THE GOVERNMENT).... BA Pensions pay this to the Gov but then charge you MPF rate (currently around 9-9.5% interest PER ANNUM) on this figure.....

If you've got 20+ years to retirement that could virtually WIPE OUT your entire pension!

And no I'm not being melodramatic... the figures are out there!

[Juan Tugoh]

The problem will disappear when NAPS gets closed to future accrual in the next couple of years and those LH FOs will be kicking themselves for not bidding for a SH command. Then there will be an unholy rush for those same SH commands as the BARP pension is dependent on the money you put into the pot - command allows more money in from both you and the company. This is a short term problem. Remember though that "direction" is a tool the company can also use to fill empty C32 slots!

[king surf]

I think a major contributor to Longhaul SFO's not bidding for Shorthaul command has to be the NAPS pension issues (and thats not BA's doing it's the Government's).....

Why would you become a shorthaul captain to create a ~£300,000-350,000 pension liability (i.e. you OWE THE GOVERNMENT).... BA Pensions pay this to the Gov but then charge you MPF rate (currently around 9-9.5% interest PER ANNUM) on this figure.....

If you've got 20+ years to retirement that could virtually WIPE OUT your entire pension!

And no I'm not being melodramatic... the figures are out there!
Dave is offline Report Post


Dave is correct. I flew with a SFO who is in Naps and was not taking command for those tax liabilities. It was going to cost him a staggering amount of money so why would you go for a command in his situation?
I can't wait for the next Budget when Mr Osborne will probably end tax relief for those of us in a money purchase scheme.

[GS-Alpha]

Juan

You don't understand the NAPS tax problem if you think that closure of the scheme to future accrual will remove the tax liability and make SFOs wish they had already taken a command. The number of Captains who've told me "It's OK. You can tick scheme pays and the problem is removed." They don't understand the situation either, so you are not alone. In fact, the only people who are not too concerned by the situation are those who do not actually understand it.

Looking on the bright side though; at least if the company closes future accrual into NAPS, they'll have to pay their full employer's national insurance contributions rather than making NAPS employees pay it!

[Juan Tugoh]

GS - as one already paying the darn bill I understand the issue fully. It is only a concern to those in NAPS and, I agree, it is concerning.

It is academic to new joiners except the effect on command opportunities. If it means some SFOs will stay there and never bid for a command I'm sure the new joiners will be very happy, as will I as it increases my opportunities.

[GS-Alpha]

The problem will disappear when NAPS gets closed to future accrual in the next couple of years and those LH FOs will be kicking themselves for not bidding for a SH command.

Why would LH FOs be kicking themselves for not bidding for a SH command? The problem does not dissapear. As an aside, anyone who ticks 'scheme pays' without sufficient AVCs to pay the bill immediately, has not sought decent financial advice. Indeed ticking scheme pays at all is only a good idea if you are going to break the lifetime allowance or if you believe the 25% tax free extraction is going to disappear by the time you retire.

Anyway, as you say, we digress from the main subject. I agree with you that the current NAPS tax problem is indeed good for BARP pilots (new entrants) and their command prospects. I've been saying this to BARP guys I fly with for years, in an attempt to cheer them up.

[squawkident.]

Anyone done stage 2 recently? What was the time taken to hear? I was told 7-10 days but others have told me within 24 hrs.
Anyone know what the recent time is?

[P0tt3r]

Anyone done stage 2 recently? What was the time taken to hear? I was told 7-10 days but others have told me within 24 hrs.
Anyone know what the recent time is?

I heard within 2 days after stages 1 & 2 (October/November).
7 days after for the sim (December).

[jimboy473]

Anyone got any ideas as to how long they had to wait roughly from finding out they were in the hold pool to fleet allocation? I appreciate it is a bit more individual specific - but got the good news last week after successfully applying for the Long Haul DEP, currently 737 rated, and trying to quench my thirst for information!!
Also any numbers for the hold pool?
Rgds!

[Twinstar2007]

Fly4more,

After attending a past roadshow one of the BA recruiters made a point of saying they can afford to be fussy when we reached the selection process section on the presentation.

One person asked why the place so much emphasis on the computer test, and there response was it shows that you make it as a pilot and manage a conversion course without failing, which too me doesn't make sense if you are experienced pilots and have been flying for 'X' amount of years does that mean you are likely to fail at BA?

It seems a waste of resource from the BA team to be going on all these roadshow abroad when really they need to maybe evaluate there selection process to be tailored to experienced pilots and not zero hours cadet.

[LlamaFarmer]

Fly4more,

After attending a past roadshow one of the BA recruiters made a point of saying they can afford to be fussy when we reached the selection process section on the presentation.

One person asked why the place so much emphasis on the computer test, and there response was it shows that you make it as a pilot and manage a conversion course without failing, which too me doesn't make sense if you are experienced pilots and have been flying for 'X' amount of years does that mean you are likely to fail at BA?

It seems a waste of resource from the BA team to be going on all these roadshow abroad when really they need to maybe evaluate there selection process to be tailored to experienced pilots and not zero hours cadet.

Hundreds/thousands of hours sat with the aircraft in LNAV/VNAV does not necessarily equal good experience.

You could spend several years letting your skills fade (NOTECHS as well as handling skill) so they probably want to assess that you've still got the skills. Makes perfect sense to me.


Having that stage there doesn't make a difference to those competent enough to pass it. But if you didn't have it, you'd lose one stage of filtering that weeds out the less competent applicants.

[spyce]

Hello all,


Just a quick question. On the math assessment on day 1, do you have a paper or is it all mental?

[fly4more]

Agreed , i dont BA are concerned about it and yes its a hoop to jump through. And a stage that would certainly count against those more mature types who may find the reversal of the joystick polarity on the cross hairs a real challenge.

You can apply , but your chances of passing the aptitude will be decrese exponentially with age, and that suits BA.

In the old day they just said bog off, you are too old!

[Juan Tugoh]

Agreed , i dont BA are concerned about it and yes its a hoop to jump through. And a stage that would certainly count against those more mature types who may find the reversal of the joystick polarity on the cross hairs a real challenge.

You can apply , but your chances of passing the aptitude will be decrese exponentially with age, and that suits BA.

In the old day they just said bog off, you are too old!

BA learned years ago that just recruiting youngsters merely inflated the wage bill and causes promotion issues. There are something like 700 sub1000 seniority captains who were the Prestwick cadets. They sit in the LHS of LH aircraft on pp24 (old scales) with fully paid up NAPS pensions and they cost the company a fortune (through no fault of their own)

So when I hear or read comments about how BA only wants youngsters it just reveals the prejudices and anxieties of those making them. BA wants good pilots (admittedly as determined by own peculiar system) but it doesn't give a stuff about age, sex, colour, creed or religion. They don't look for an old school tie or a secret handshake. You either pass selection or you don't, then if you are in the right place at the right time and they need swimmers from the pool you get a job offer.

[anson harris]

And a stage that would certainly count against those more mature types who may find the reversal of the joystick polarity on the cross hairs a real challenge.
You can apply , but your chances of passing the aptitude will be decrese exponentially with age, and that suits BA.

Plenty of the younger generation struggle to pass a basic maths test so according to your logic I suppose BA don't want to recruit young or old?

[jimboy473]

Hello all,


Just a quick question. On the math assessment on day 1, do you have a paper or is it all mental?

Yes spyce you do have a spare bit of paper to jot stuff down on and the questions are on paper as well, very time limited though!

Good luck!!

[cessnapete]

Mate of mine involved with sim assesment with large British airline. He is amazed at the number of ex Airbus candidates from other UK airlines, who have lost the skills of trimming, and controlling speed maunually with the thrust levers, big part of the assesment.
It's not just AF and some Asian carriers, but it appears the basic flying skills deficiency is now becoming a UK problem too.

[HPbleed]

He is amazed that people who don't use a skill forget how to use it? You don't trim an airbus and a lot of carriers forbid use of manual thrust. Five years of doing that and you soon get used to that and that alone unless you can afford to keep a single engine rating up. It's not amazing, it's expected. However, a couple of hours in a fixed based 737 sim and most people would regain the skill fairly quickly, in preparation for the big even,t £300 for a future career is not a lot.

[no sponsor]

You'll find the tests are looking at capacity. Can you fly ok and have the ability to do other things at the same time? If you're using 100% of your capacity to just handle the aircraft you're not what they're looking for. NOTECHs are your ability to be able to recognise the big picture, including yourself, and be effective. Get the hang of that and you've cracked it for the Sim.

[cessnapete]

HPbleed.
It's scary that in the recent AF 330 and Indonesia 320 accidents, the pilots were unable to hand fly aircraft with basic controls, had a full set of instruments, fully serviceable engines, but no auto throttle, and presumably ground speed from the GPS.
Looks like we're going the same way.

[overstress]

fly4more:

but i can grease it on when it matters

I know it was only a throwaway comment, ;) but BA do NOT want you to try and 'grease it on' as they see runway excursion as a major threat. They want you to do a standard landing in the touchdown zone when it matters!

[fly4more]

... yep they can plonk it down in the touch down zone, but dont look out of the window while taxying....

[overstress]

"They" referring to whom? A lot of BA pilots post useful info on here, it would be a shame if they went away because of cheap shot postings like that one :confused:

[tfly737]

Anyone got direct entry 787 recently?

[Megaton]

Anyone got direct entry 787 recently?

A mate starts as DEP on the 787 in Apr. Previous experience RAF and large biz jets.

[tfly737]

ok great. Any idea how many seats are available?

[jimboy473]

Any DEP 744 going atm?

[Megaton]

Mate going to the 787 was offered 787, 747 or 777 so all three available at the moment. He chose 787 because it was the first course to come up.

[Jwscud]

I had my sim on a Thursday afternoon and received a phone call with the good news the following Monday. My sim partner heard 3 days later so 7 days from the sim (he also passed.)

[bucket_and_spade]

Jwscud,

Thanks for your reply. I'll keep my fingers crossed a little bit longer.

Cheers

It can be nearly 2 weeks - keep the faith!

[jimboy473]

Mate going to the 787 was offered 787, 747 or 777 so all three available at the moment. He chose 787 because it was the first course to come up.

How long did he have to wait in the pool of you don't mind me asking?

[Fursty Ferret]

HPbleed.
It's scary that in the recent AF 330 and Indonesia 320 accidents, the pilots were unable to hand fly aircraft with basic controls, had a full set of instruments, fully serviceable engines, but no auto throttle, and presumably ground speed from the GPS.
Looks like we're going the same way.

When was the last time you hand flew a commercial jet transport (Airbus or Boeing) at cruise altitude? It's not like throwing it around at 3000 feet on the ILS.

[cessnapete]

Are you saying that after Autopilot/Autothrottle failure at altitude you accept pilots are unable to control the aircraft.
Pilots should be able to hand fly his aircraft at any altitude in emergencies such as mentioned. On the Boeings I flew we had a set of memory power and attitudes which we would fly in the event of asi indication failure for example.
In the examples mentioned crews lacked the handling skills to manually fly the aircraft to lower levels where the emergency could be dealt with.
I repeat in the Air Asia example, the crew had a perfectly flyable aircraft in Alternate Law i.e. handling like a non fly by wire aircraft. The only things missing, an autopilot and auto throttle?

[RexBanner]

Guys I've noticed there is a large thread on automation dependency running on the Tech Log forum. Don't want to try to police anything but does this (admittedly noteworthy) conversation have the least bit to do with Terms and Endearment?

[VeroFlyer]

787 Course April. Currently 737 rated, 4000 TTL, background regional TP and SH flying. Very Excited to get started!

My main advice for getting through the process is be prepared for every stage and put the work in. It's worth it in the end. Good luck to all!

[jimboy473]

787 Course April. Currently 737 rated, 4000 TTL, background regional TP and SH flying. Very Excited to get started!

My main advice for getting through the process is be prepared for every stage and put the work in. It's worth it in the end. Good luck to all!

How long from confirmation of hold pool to hearing - currently waiting at the moment!

[P0tt3r]

How long from confirmation of hold pool to hearing - currently waiting at the moment!

I think that varies a bit depending on the positions they are filling at the time, and your experience.

From what others have told me, A couple of months generally for an offer for 787/777/320 at the moment. Guess that could change either way though.

For me it was only 48hrs. They needed to fill a slot quickly, and I matched the requirements.

[jimboy473]

For me it was only 48hrs. They needed to fill a slot quickly, and I matched the requirements.

Good man - congratulations, applied through the DEP longhaul, did the sim on the 5th of Jan and got the confirmation last week but no other information apart from that! When's your start date?

[VeroFlyer]

2 weeks for me from hold pool to offer. But yes this varies on your experience and notice period available.

[P0tt3r]

2 weeks for me from hold pool to offer. But yes this varies on your experience and notice period available.

Very good point re notice period being a factor. Mine was 3 months, but people with less might be able to take places at short notice I guess.

[nrn]

I completely skipped the pool. Sim till startdate 93 days. Notice period was 90 days..

[jimboy473]

I completely skipped the pool. Sim till startdate 93 days. Notice period was 90 days..

When did you do your sim?! This is insane - what do they want you on?

[P0tt3r]

Good man - congratulations, applied through the DEP longhaul, did the sim on the 5th of Jan and got the confirmation last week but no other information apart from that! When's your start date?

Cheers. I passed mid December. Start end of March. 380.

[DunlopDanglerUK]

Entered the pool in Oct, offered 777 last week starting April. Looks like things are starting to move quickly for everyone waiting. Good luck everyone.

[nrn]

Sim in June somewhere, started in September on the 787

[OttoMatic]

Excuse my ignorance and possibly misdirected hope in this matter, but it seems BA are still very much desperate for pilots, although now it's mostly for long haul. What's to stop them from taking the boys and girls with less than the 1000 hours of jet (possibly 0 hours jet :rolleyes:) that are already in the hold pool for LH rather than SH? I don't see anything legality wise, so is there a lot of extra training involved to comply with regulations or is this just BA's own made up limit that they technically could change if they so wished?

Thanks for any help clearing this up :ok:

[Chief Brody]

Otto

You make an interesting point. And not having anything to do for 15 minutes here's my thoughts - it comes with a major BS warning !!

I initially thought it was an insurance thing .... ie the insurance company gives BA a preferred rate based on prescribed experience levels. But I've flown with many skippers who went direct onto 'the classic' strait out of the RAF (fast jet) and also some from ATRs at CityFlyer.

Now of course the tornado is a jet but given the total lack of handling similarities with it and a heavy pax jet it's hard to see how these guys were deemed any more proficient than say a current Dash8 pilot (for example) - yet sure enough there are dozens or Harrier and Tornado guys who back in the mid 90s lef the service and went straight onto the 747-2. The Cityflyer turboprop guys and gals are a rarer breed but it did happen and hence it proves its sure as hell not insurmountable. In fact IMHO having flown private, regional, short, medium and LH - the turboprop regional was by far the most challenging aircraft to fly and I venture to say I would have taken to longhaul (380) like a duck to water.

Now in both cases above (RAF & Cityflyer et al) circuit training in some very heavy tin was done and thats currently not part of the BA training dept zeitgeist.

Any thoughts (very succinctly) on what Virgin will do with their cadet cruise-pilots. X years down the line they're gonna be ready for the 'upgrade' and either have to do circuits or be farmed out for a year or two a bit like Thomas Cook did to Flybe.

Blue skies to all

CB

[P0tt3r]

I would suggest that with sub-2000hrs, going into an environment where you'll land infrequently, sometimes to the point of being near to going out of recency, would do you no favours at all. Just an opinion, and not linked to anyone's policy.

[LlamaFarmer]

I would suggest that with sub-2000hrs, going into an environment where you'll land infrequently, sometimes to the point of being near to going out of recency, would do you no favours at all. Just an opinion, and not linked to anyone's policy.


I have to agree. Family friend on LH did only 11 landings in a 6 month period last year. 2 were CAT II/III autoland, so only 9 manual landings.


Compare that to shorthaul where you might get 5-10 a week rather than 2 a month

[OttoMatic]

Thanks for the replies, and I would very much agree with you guys on recency and so forth. That would explain the 2000 hour demand with which I agree, it's more the jet part of it that I would dare to suggest isn't absolutely necessary. Funnily enough I would actually prefer SH to start with and then see what happens, but I'd rather get in at all and straight in on LH than to be timed out in the pool just for being a TP:er... :}

[bucket_and_spade]

The other thing to remember is that on LH you'll be acting PIC when the skipper's in the bunk so there are also experience requirements related to that.

[LlamaFarmer]

The other thing to remember is that on LH you'll be acting PIC when the skipper's in the bunk so there are also experience requirements related to that.

what about when skipper goes for a piss on SH

[NukeHunt]

Anyone prepared to share any recent sim feedback as they've now changed from the 747 to the 757?

[Nibber]

Nothing seems to have changed apart from the sim itself. The best tip I can give is to buy 757 Professional for X-Plane. It was identical to the real thing except for the speed tape was missing. Even the power settings worked. Helped me feel much more relaxed knowing where everything was. Got into the hold pool just before Christmas.

[wiggy]

The other thing to remember is that on LH you'll be acting PIC when the skipper's in the bunk so there are also experience requirements related to that.

Yep.

what about when skipper goes for a piss on SH

:E Well...unless he/she's got a rather large bladder or serious GI problems they aren't likely to be off the flight deck for several hours.......

[LlamaFarmer]

Yep.



:E Well...unless he/she's got a rather large bladder or serious GI problems they aren't likely to be off the flight deck for several hours.......

3 minutes rounds up to 0.1 of an hour... it all adds up :hmm:

[geronemo]

Ladies and gentleman, i am brand new to pprune, and am hoping someone in the know may be able to help me.... Is there any information out there as to when BA may open up direct entry pilot recruitment for A320 again. Am in the middle of converting my full atpl to easa atpl just now. Currently have 2000 hours on dash 8, 3000 total, therefore don't quite meet requirements for BA long haul. Very keen on BA, but general info on uk airline industry would be most appreciated.

[jimboy473]

Geronemo,

I was at an interview late last year (end of November), officially from the horses mouth, they are looking to hire in the region of 350 guys this year. Apparently quite short on long haul at the moment, hence the long haul vacancy, and the big drive in the ME to get type rated 777,787,A380 guys to come back - the scheduled 3 day open day in DXB had to be extended to 5 days as it was so over subscribed! Read from that what you will but I would guess SH would open up again this year once they have got some space in the training department... but that is my own opinion not fact. :}

[VJW]

LlamaFarmer I hope you meant 6 minutes is 0.1 hours.....good luck with the BA maths test :)

[Buter]

He didn't say it equals .1 hours, he said it rounds up to .1 hours.

Good luck with the verbal comprehension test...

;)

Buter

[LlamaFarmer]

LlamaFarmer I hope you meant 6 minutes is 0.1 hours.....good luck with the BA maths test :)

He didn't say it equals .1 hours, he said it rounds up to .1 hours.

Good luck with the verbal comprehension test...

;)

Buter


Indeed I did Buter. At least someone can read.

[Wodka]

Does anyone on the inside know if this recruitment bonanza is likely to still be going on this time next year - or is this direct to LH looking like a one time fix?

[overstress]

Wodka, not sure if anyone's crystal ball is good enough to answer that one, I'd be wanting some lottery numbers off them as well....

[spyce]

Another quick question guys,


In the cross hair exercise, do they invert the axis from times to times?

[jimboy473]

Another quick question guys,


In the cross hair exercise, do they invert the axis from times to times?

Not in my experience which was a few months ago!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Another quick question guys,


In the cross hair exercise, do they invert the axis from times to times?

When I went through it was reversed in pitch but correct in roll.This could be random so expect the unexpected.

[danski]

If anyone has any thoughts about verbal reasoning, I'd love to hear them. Do you think it's possible to train your brain to "see" the correct answer?

[LlamaFarmer]

If anyone has any thoughts about verbal reasoning, I'd love to hear them. Do you think it's possible to train your brain to "see" the correct answer?

Can't offer any specific info on the BA assessment, but as far as verbal reasoning in general goes... don't rush it, read the whole question and don't jump to a conclusion too hastily.

[spyce]

When I went through it was reversed in pitch but correct in roll.This could be random so expect the unexpected


Did it change during the test? or it stayed like that during the all test?




The math tests, are they very similar to the ones we received from BA? Any good books or website to train for them?

[jimboy473]

When I went through it was reversed in pitch but correct in roll.This could be random so expect the unexpected


Did it change during the test? or it stayed like that during the all test?




The math tests, are they very similar to the ones we received from BA? Any good books or website to train for them?

Hey Spyce,
When I replied earlier to your comment, this is what I meant, it was reversed pitch but stayed that way - no change. Sorry if there was any confusion.

Most of the maths is the basic stuff, long/short division and multiplication, ratios and percentages. I still needed to visit a few GCSE websites to dust off the cobwebs. A quick google online and I'm sure you can find some fairly accurate examples from airline prep websites...depends how much you want the job and how much cash you're willing to splash!

Happy studies and best of luck!

[Father Fintan Stack]

Following the last pool update email from last week have any non-rated people found out if they are one of the lucky 4 who were going to get a course that Lindsay mentioned?

[jimboy473]

What did the email say, I'm currently in the pool, but not rated on anything they fly, applied through the LH scheme - 73 is on my licence!

[geronemo]

Jimboy, firstly, how did your interview go? Well done on getting one and fingers crossed for you. Secondly, thanks heaps for the heads up. Much appreciated. Thirdly, because im at the arse end of the world, I dont hear much re uk industry. A
Have you by chance heard anything on cityflyer what they're doing, or how they're going? I know they're recruiting now but only for a very short window of time, but wondering Iif they're atill short on crew or by how much. Congrats again though!

[jimboy473]

Geronemo,

Interview was fairly ok actually, they were a little pushy, but not necessarily in a bad way, due to time. Pleasant enough interview, others found them quite harsh, so I think it depends on the person and their outlook and views.
But I have had plenty of interview experience now, and had done a decent amount of preparation, like any one would.
I'm afraid I don't, I do believe a separate thread specifically for Cityflyer has been started already. I know one or two people there, not close friends per se, but he seemed to really enjoy it for what it was, sounded like it wasn't a bad gig, but maybe not the best also. Pay I believe may be a little low especially as it is London where you would have to live - but thats no fact so don't take my word for it, I could be completely wrong, a quick visit to PPJN and/or right move for rental prices could be a good bet!

Found out yesterday I will be on the 787 starting in May time. Cant wait!

All the best!

[mark_one]

Hi jimboy473,

congrats on getting through and put on the 787, something nice to look forward at indeed!

Would you mind to pm me, have some questions!? Much appreciate it.

Enjoy the last three month with your current employer!

Regards,

M1

[LlamaFarmer]

Buter it also rounds up to 10 million hours - why stop at 0.1 hours....

LlamaFarmer it's not about being able to read, it's about you making zero sense :ok:

Most people don't round up their flying hours to the nearest 10 million...

Also 0.05 would round down to 0 rather than up to 10,000,000.



It wasn't a serious remark anyway

[VJW]

Neither was mine dude - perhaps the smiley face wasn't big enough...lets try this one :O:ok:

[TheGliderPilot]

If you are invited for assessment but live outside of UK, does anyone know if BA will provide accomodation at Heathrow and flight tickets to/from for all three different assessment stages?

[SinBin]

Hahaha...you've got to be kidding!:ok: