BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Sygyzy]

All this sounds draconian, but what hasn't been mentioned is that 'force draft' attracts double overtime rates - or certainly it used to - which helps to swallow the pill. Also you have to stay legal, 1 day off after 7 etc, so you could end up losing a trip that was on your original roster and someone else would be drafted for that....It must still be cheaper for the company to be able to get a fully qualified crewman 'off the street' so to speak with no additional pension/holiday/training costs, or they wouldn't do it!

Additionally if you want the time off for a mundane project that needs completing - say decorating a room - then a forced draft or two would allow you to GSI (get someone in) the project and still leave you in profit.

[ETOPS]

but what hasn't been mentioned is that 'force draft' attracts double overtime rates

Not anymore :{

[wiggy]

Sygyzy

I remember the double time days but believe me it isn't at all like that anymore.


As ETOPS has pointed out it's much less....(1.25 or 1.5 rings a bell). In addition rumour has it any Part Timers being drafted seem to be being paid single time - I believe that one is going to tribunal. Factor in the taxman's hit on those payments to anyone in the higher tax bands, and also the (controversial) changes to Flying pay/flying allowance and many people will tell you that these days draft is not at all lucrative...what you're left with sure as heck won't pay to GSI in the SE UK. Time off is the new currency and some in the company seem to have some difficulty accepting that fact.

Al

Don't you have people on home standby?

Yes we do....but there have been instances where it appears drafting has been used to protect the standby's, just in case they were needed....(the old Supply Section NCO's excuse some of us will remember from Forces days...):ugh:

[Sygyzy]

Clearly things have moved on - downwards - from my time playing the bidline rules. Fings ain't wot they used ta be!

Sorry for spreading misinformation.

S:(

[wiggy]

Sygyzy

Sorry for spreading misinformation.

No worries, and certainly no harm done.

It's probably in the best interests of those researching the DEP scheme that a light has been shone on this aspect of BA pilots' current T&Cs.

[Superpilot]

I know this has been done in the past (the distant past) but could you wonderful BA ladies and gents give us some kind of clue as to what your roster looks like during this turbulent period? Both this month and next? (don't forget to include your seniority and base).

Ta

[bex88]

Ok June.

Force drafted then two days off followed by 6 on 2 off, 5 on 3 off (maybe), 6 on 3 off and another 2 on.

Mix of day trips and tours. 10 nights away from home. Mixture of earlier and lates but in blocks rather than mixed.

[Nelson15]

Not my own roster, but a random example of the most junior of the most junior fleet on a blind lines:

2 on 2 off, 4 on 3off, 3 on 1 off, 1 on 2off, 5 on 2 off, 4 on 1 off.

Mostly trips and mostly early starts, though this is isn't an indication of what a junior person can expect as it varies hugely. You can however expect to be working most, if not all weekends at the moment as a junior P2.

[wiggy]

would that mean junior trash would get a better rostering experience than they have today? What is the likely outcome of all this and what would that look like for all?

That's the 64k question. We may have some clues in a few weeks when the Union Reps reveal proposed changes they've been negotiating with the management. I guess it might end up better than now for some of the junior guys but I'm sure that if the company get their way it will mean everybody having less control over their lives and working even harder/longer days .

Basically it's wait and see :uhoh:

[Airbus Unplugged]

I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what our rostering agreement is going to look like. At the moment it's RosterMax, with minimum time off and one weekend, two if you're very lucky.

We spend a lot of time at work, but not working. Departmental politics means that hours 'in the office' is a benchmark with other areas of the business. This can lead to frustrating sitting about in airless canteens, while on other days you have an impossible schedule to meet with long journeys between aircraft and little over an hour between chocks.

No-one is prepared to arrange for you, the crew, and the airplane to be coordinated for the day. Our needs are just not on the radar.

The money is good but not great, the UK tax regime is outrageous and punitive, extra work is not rewarding, and as we have seen - not necessarily voluntary.

Yes it's still one of the best jobs in aviation, but aviation is not the best job in the World anymore. I'm sooooh tired. Don't know how long I can keep this up.:uhoh:

[kirungi1]

Airbus Unplugged

The final third of your post,#287, is of particular interest. I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, but increasing consumer power doesn't come without sacrifice for which employees bear the most of these costs and not owners of capital. Return on labour plunges while return on capital grows which is good for the company.

I do sympathise with your situation but is the proportion of capital in BA that goes to employees in decline even though you put in more hours? I say No.

I think what's happening here is that capital is aligning with power (consumer) and we're seeing a new alliance. Would this alliance be enough to keep/create more jobs & over time in the flight deck? I say yes.

[FANS]

It's entirely right to evaluate the pros and cons of BA to you as an individual.

In terms of whether you agree with them or not is unfortunately tough, as BA will have no shortage of candidates regardless of things not being what they once were.

I would assume that things will get slightly worse at BA, but that will probably be the case no matter which airline you're at. Unless you'd rather be at a regional base or time to command is imperative, BA is surely still the best place to be in the UK.

[wiggy]

What more can the SH review do to make the operation more efficient? Are they going to start changing the whole philosophy of aircraft being parked on foreign aprons overnight? Surely this must be one of the biggest controllable expenses associated with the SH operation (parking charges and putting crew up)?

The downside of getting rid of night stops is that you lose the early AM flights departing european stations that (in theory at least) feed the LHR Longhaul departures late AM onwards.......

I'm sure my short haul colleagues can give you plenty of examples of how the operation could be made much more cost effective and efficient without trying to force the pilots to work yet more duty hours.....there's a need to think "beyond the flight deck", or even "beyond the aircraft" :ok:,

[kirungi1]

wiggy

Thank you for #292. I'm with you all the way. You put all my mind in one sentence. Classic - "there's a need to think "beyond the flight deck", or even "beyond the aircraft".

[Flaperon75]

Are they going to start changing the whole philosophy of aircraft being parked on foreign aprons overnight? Surely this must be one of the biggest controllable expenses associated with the SH operation (parking charges and putting crew up)?
...plus, of course, there is physically no more room at LHR to park any more aircraft overnight. All stands already taken so another reason to nightstop down route

[Jwscud]

Those of you watching a very British airline - all these people are above you on the seniority list... :}

[easyflyer]

Useful reminder jw; if you don't wish to be exposed to cadet "more senior" colleagues, outfits which elect to tap that resource likely won't suit and you'd be better off remaining clear.

[NigelOnDraft]

If they took bidline away, would that mean junior trash would get a better rostering experience than they have today? What is the likely outcome of all this and what would that look like for all?Nobody can really say, since firstly they do not have a crystal ball, and secondly "better" is subjective.

However, under the current arrangements, the "junior trash" (as you call them) tend to work to a "blindline". In essence that means little choice in the work, but due to the vagaries of the system, they work less - by say 10%-15%. So anybody with evening classes on Tues/Wed/Thurs evening is pretty well OK to attend :ok:

Unfortunately, this "anomaly" has been noted by the grown-ups, and used as an illustration of how the current system is "not working". It is hard to disagree :( One possible outcome might be to leave the current system as far as possible, but find ways to get the Blindlines to near 100% work.

Were that to succeed, not only would there be little choice, and working every weekend, but the mid-week evening classes might not be so safe :{

That is but one possibility / interpretation, it's a big unknown for all right now...

[Fursty Ferret]

Useful reminder jw; if you don't wish to be exposed to cadet "more senior" colleagues, outfits which elect to tap that resource likely won't suit and you'd be better off remaining clear.

Very true, but don't forget that these cadets started their training and applied to BA on the FPP over two years ago...

[Plastic787]

So has anyone had a response of any kind yet?

[The Mixmaster]

PFO received last Friday. Good luck to all !

[Blighty Pilot]

I've not applied and nor do I have any interest in doing so!

Asking for people to list their experience might be a kick in the gonads for some! I can assure you that your experience is a minute part of the requirement and the main hurdle is answering the essay questions appropriately.

[Dornier_228]

No answer yet...

[a-ricky-town]

Still waiting to hear anything......A friend of mine got a no.

[Plastic787]

With the sheer number of applications even the No's may take a while in coming. It would be interesting to know if they started working on the applications as they were received or whether it is an arbitrary process started on an fixed date.

[binsleepen]

FWIW I flew with a guy who does the sims for the recruitment process and he is expecting to start simming with candidates in mid-late July.

Regards

[Plastic787]

I'd be inclined to question that. Perhaps that's the date they were provisionally given. I'd say with the amount of time that has already gone by they're going to struggle to get everyone to selection days in advance of that. Obviously could be wrong though but you'd think successful candidates would have heard something by now if it were the case.

(Of course you did say "start" so who knows?)

[MaxShr]

I received an email last week inviting me to Day 1. Not my first time applying - the old Day 1 is now spread over 2 days. Tests on Day 1. If you're successful go back on another day for an interview and the group exercise. If you're again successful you'll be called back for a sim check. Quite a frugal process and with forced draft, the potential for change in the bidline system AND SH working their socks off it really is an interesting proposition. Having said that, it's a long term career which I think will pay off as I wish to go long haul. However, it's not for everybody......

[Dornier_228]

I was invited for the 1st Day as well.
It's my 2nd attempt, last one on 2011.
Does anybody know what the 2 computer tests consist of?
Good luck to everyone...

[nintendojet320]

Out of curiosity, the 2 guys who have been re-invited for interviews, whats your experience like, TT? 320hrs? RHS/LHS?

[wiggy]

the potential for change in the bidline system AND SH working their socks off it really is an interesting proposition.

Given the firestorm that is raging elsewhere (i.e. BALPA forum and the in house BA forum) over the definite but supposedly only temporary changes made to Bidline to cover August's work I'd say that's an something of an understatement....

Good luck with the assessment but given the state of flux with Bidline at the moment I'd recommend that any successful applicants have a very critical and careful look at what BA's rostering system looks like at the end of this summer before signing on the line - especially if you value having more than a weeks notice of your days off early in a month and/or have ongoing family commitments such as childcare (be aware, if you are not, that generally under current Bidline there isn't an underlying pattern of days on/days off). Under the temporary (?) arrangements announced last week we won't know our confirmed August rosters until 25th July at the earliest, so this patch up of Bidline is a bit of a horror story for anyone who has made plans or is trying to make plans for activities outside work.

it's a long term career which I think will pay off as I wish to go long haul.

Fair enough, but remember if you are successful in getting into BA you will almost certainly be "serving time" :E in short haul for quite a while because it takes a long time to dig that tunnel that allows you to escape to long haul, if that's what you want (i.e. years at least, decade plus probably). Regardless on where you plan on ending up you really do need to seriously consider the life style issues and problems associated with BA short haul before making any decisions. BTW to give you some idea here's a video of a BA short haul pilot finally making the transition to a long haul fleet -

I know regardless of what I say successful applicant will sign on the line regardless, I'd probably do the same....but please don't pop up on the forums in a year or two under another name complaining that rostering was better at Easyair or Ryanjet.....you've been given a heads up....

[wiggy]

Supposed to be hats on in public, though many hats do seem to go mssing and uniform stores ( another long story) are very slow at getting replacements:sad:...

I hate head-wear! (out-dated, pointless nonsense that I can assure you customers belonging to the 21st century don't give a damn about).

Maybe, some customer surveys seem to say otherwise and I believe following recent changes hats are back "in" at at least one other major UK airline.

Must admit being ex-Mil the hats are fine by me, especially as it hides my grey hair... and it's very a useful place for storing ID, keys, rank slides, pens et al when down route......

[overstress]

is the wearing of a hat absolutely mandatory

Yes. As wiggy says, customers like it. Symbol of authority.. we fly to nations where hat wearing for officials is de rigeur! We also wear uniform in the simulator.
No sick notes for that either.

out-dated, pointless nonsense that I can assure you customers belonging to the 21st century don't give a damn about Use that line in the interview, then you won't have to worry about wearing a BA hat...

[JW411]

Do you really wear uniform in the simulator? How very quaint.

[JW411]

In my last company (before I retired) we had a chief pilot who was a bit of a stickler about the wearing of hats. Imagine his chagrin when the management introduced a new uniform and decided that hats would not be worn nor would they be issued. I don't think he ever totally recovered from the shock. Mind you, as someone has already said, the hat was a useful receptacle for holding your car keys, ID Card etc etc on a layover.

[JW411]

Incidentally, I haven't seen or worn a uniform in the simulator since I left Mrs Windsor's employ in 1978 (and I have spent thousands of hours in the box - usually in the back examining). Nor have I seen any other airlines wearing uniform in the simulator except that I have a very vague memory of seeing a Gulfair crew coming out of the box in Crawley in uniform about 30 years ago. It would be interesting to hear of which other airlines wear uniform in the sim.

[Superpilot]

Out of interest when did you guys click the submit button? I did mine on the first Sunday (on the 3rd day), no news yet.

[Plastic787]

Superpilot, I submitted mine in the morning on the same Sunday as you. I wouldn't read anything into this necessarily as there's nothing to say they're working on these applications sequentially.

[Blighty Pilot]

As you tick boxes on the application, type rating, disabled, M/F etc etc you earn points. If you're registered disabled you earn 10000 points and are eligible for an interview - some European ruling thing!! So the higher the points the closer to the top of the pile you are. The recruiter then goes into the application and reads through your essay answer and grades them is several piles: Suitable for BA, Review, Reject.
Only after all these filters have been applied you'll get your email to invite or PFO. No news is either good news or a PFO will follow in due course. The date you applied will have NO relevance!

[binsleepen]

If you look back through the old DEP thread some of the questions were answered on there.

As I understand it applications are put into 3 piles. 1) definitely yes, 2) definitely no, and 3) maybe. The 1's will get a quick invite to interview, the 2's a quick PFO and the 3's will be reassessed after all the 1's have been invited and the numbers still required looked at. i.e BA may want to interview 10 applicants for every post available. If they get the numbers with all 1's then the 3's will be PFO'd. If they don't have enough 1's then the best 3's will get an invite.

As far as interview slots go, more are constantly added. There will be enough slots for those invited. Keep checking the web site.

[Gutter Airways]

When your application is reviewed, do they go through your previous applications/essay answers also, or base it on your current application only?

[kirungi1]

Gutter Airways

I would like to think it would be based on your current application as your skills and experience might have changed :ugh:

[Blighty Pilot]

All done on current application. The only time they MIGHT consider a previous application is if you were in the hold pool.
Its all part of BA's clean sheet, treat everyone the same policy.

[billybuds]

I logged on within 30 mins of getting the invite yesterday morning and there weren't any slots. I'm guessing it is just a case of constantly checking?

[kirungi1]

billybuds

Yes, I presume; binsleepen has some fine words on this in #318.

[a-ricky-town]

Does the status of the application change prior to receiving an email from BA? Mine still says "submitted". I sent my CV on June 6th.

[a-ricky-town]

Received the invitation this evening! :)

[kirungi1]

@ a-ricky-town

Good luck, hope you enjoy the experience.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Good luck to all who applied! Just out of curiosity what were some of the "essay" questions that were asked? Thanks

[student88]

I'm still waiting to hear my fate. Anyone else?

[Superpilot]

Likewise. Put my heart and soul into the essay questions!

1) What do you believe constitutes effective leadership on the flight deck? In the past, how have you demonstrated these skills and qualities? (Max 300 Words)

2) Describe a situation in which you exceeded your customers', expectations. (Max 300 Words)

They also requested a cover letter explaining why we wanted to leave our current jobs and fly for BA.

[coffee white one]

Student88, aye still waiting here too.. I didn't expect to hear straight away, due volume of applications. However the checking of emails is driving me bonkers now.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Sleazy pilots wear uniform for day 1 of the summer sim as it's effectively treated as a line check (with stuff going wrong) under ATQP. It's really no big deal. Easy were also flirting with the idea of hats recently but thankfully that initiative has been buried.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Just shooting the breeze until we hear everyone's good news.

[dick badcock]

And we do not wear hats to the sim...:}

[Superpilot]

And I've been invited for an assessment... so there!

(My first with a British airline since graduating 6 years ago! :) )

[kirungi1]

Superpilot

Good luck with this but I hope you won't use that "STFU" := Remember what goes around, comes around.

[a-ricky-town]

@kirungi1

Thank you very much! :)

[overstress]

In my previous airline we didn't wear uniforms in the sim, it was slightly odd to look across flt deck and see matey in his chinos and polo shirt. The uniform seems to make it seem more like a normal day at work. Nothing quaint about it...:hmm:

[Superpilot]

Sorry if I gave that impression. I don't have a command yet. Only been operating commercially for 3 years. Flying privately for much longer than that though.

So then, can we assume the assessment questions will be the same style and variety as previous years? Is anybody aware of any changes?

Must say the thread is very quiet compared to the previous BA DEP Lowdown thread. Are we all protecting our own in this crazy dog eat dog world? :):ooh::{

[777X]

Must say the thread is very quiet compared to the previous BA DEP Lowdown thread

Because far fewer folk can apply this time.

Maybe this thread should be renamed "BA A320 Direct Entry Pilot"

[Wireless]

Exactly. Huge amount who applied last time still aren't eligible and I think have given up constantly talking about BA and hoping.

[1alpha]

So any updates on the First day? Are the tests like before or many changes?

[V55]

Similar to other recruitment campaigns but there's a whole new section added on to end of the capacity testing this year.

[billybuds]

Please tell me the 'radar' test has gone?!?

[Watersidewonker]

Billybuds I don't think you need a radar to see the plans arriving from Madrid it has been evident for quite a while.

[Dornier_228]

I got many information from pprune so far, somI have to write something....

-2 computer tests, 1h 30 min
The first part was the typical BA exercise with the joystick (keep the cross on the center ) then the same with the "counting down" numbers, then only the colored shapes with a number written on them, and finally all together...

Second part was a new exercise which I didn't know about, which apparently is similar to a CTC fly school entry exercise...(that is what some ex-CTC guys said)...
It was 25min long (after the intro) where you were hearing ATC instructions from your headset, like Altitude , next waypoint and next atc frequencies...
Then you had to "set" them on generic Fmgs ...
Parallely to that you had to insert the top of descend (Difference of altitude divided by the rate of descend times two, that was a rule of thumb we HAD to follow...)
Then you had to go through a checklist of an electrical system (read an do actions), similar to ECAM actions of Airbus, whenever an Electric Master Warning or caution was being triggered...
Then we had to monitor a fuel system with 2 main pumps and 2 standbys , where every now and then you had to switch the main OFF and the StBy on, and after a while wise-versa...

After a short brake:
-verbal reasoning test of 36 questions in 18min
-numerical reasoning test of 24 questions in 12min...


I still wait for the Yes to go for the 2nd day (interview and group exercise) or the No to go home...
Apparently some other mates as well...

All the best to everyone...

[Superpilot]

Thanks Dornier, much appreciated. That second test sounds like one by COMPASS. I recall doing that around 8 years ago at OAA not CTC.

[bex88]

No shortage of Airbus P2......hope that was sarcastic :ok:

[PitchPitch]

Attended the selection on Friday - did anyone on here get through? - I've yet to hear anything back... not feeling too hopeful!

[PitchPitch]

+1 Plastic787

Appears I'm not good enough to fly or to serve either. Alas, good luck to the remainder.

[bigdaviet]

Don't give up hope if you haven't heard anything.

When I did BA selection some of my colleagues got a positive answer within hours whereas it took a few days for me to get a yes.

Borderline candidates perhaps...

[Callsign Kilo]

It took me almost two and a half weeks to receive a yes from BA when I went through initial selection. 2 weeks for the sim result.

Be patient, because it's a HUGE prerequisite if you are serious on BA. The whole thing takes time and you can still end up with nothing even if you pass through the hoop jumping.

Good luck

[Juan Tugoh]

I'm excluded on the basis of stupid tests of limited relevance aimed squarely at those with no experience. If these tests are so flawless then why the need for a sim assessment? But like the Murphy's..

It's their train set after all.The aptitude tests and the sim ride are looking at different things. Yes they don't want you to fly the sim badly but the main focus in the sim is on capacity and CRM.

BA is peculiar, a law unto itself, but, as has been mentioned, it is their train set and you have to play by their rules. No system is ideal but the selection does tend to provide BA with a fairly uniform and reliable product with very few oddballs. it may not be everyone's cup of tea but it does seem to be what BA wants.

[Juan Tugoh]

Sorry you failed to pass the assessment

Your arguments or otherwise as to BA's choice of how they assess potential recruits are irrelevant - BA believe they ARE relevant and you were trying to join BA, BA were not trying to headhunt you, therefore their assessment of relevance of tests or otherwise is the only opinion that counts. It does not matter how good you have been told you are previously - you failed this assessment and recruitment process, and I'm sorry that is the case.

BA are looking for whatever it is they look for and you must not have displayed enough of that quality. It's a bit like the old RAF pilot assessment, the are a great many of very talented and gifted pilots who failed this, it does not make them any less gifted or able, it just shows they did not display whatever talents the RAF were looking for.

I am truly sorry for any one who has put their hat in the ring for this recruitment and has got through to the assessment days and been rejected, it must be unpleasant in the extreme to be turned down. That rejection though does not invalidate the recruitment and assessment process.

[hunterboy]

At the risk of coming in half way through the conversation here........
I'm not sure I would describe BA's selection process as tough. I think the candidates that BA want fit a certain mould and have the potential to obtain a particular skill-set.
Looking at myself and some other flight crew colleagues , we are certainly not " gifted, natural pilots", but possess other skills that BA are looking for. Apologies to the couple of ex Red Arrow guys we have flying for us, but we are not necessarily looking for 3500 ex display or test pilots. Just ordinary people that achieve the BA standard. All IMHO.

[billybuds]

Anyone heard anything from the assesment days this week yet?

[drfaust]

It does sound a bit bitter though Plastic. Gave it a go, didn't make it, apparently you didn't show what they were looking for. Sure it doesn't make you a less able pilot, but you just might not be making their grade in whatever they're looking for. And they look for whatever they look for.

I still have to go and do the first day. I've passed it before (screwed it on the sim seven years ago when in flight school), but definitely might not make it again now. I'm not going to hold it against them. You do what you can and see where it ends up. I'm most definitely not going to view a potential rejection as somehow a statement of my quality as a professional and as a pilot. Failing anything always sucks because normally you set out to succeed but come on, it's still just a job and if you would have passed a highly doubt you would have been debating the merits of the assessment program on this forum.

[FlyingTinCans]

I wouldn't worry about too much Plastic.

I've been deemed suitable to fly BA's planes twice now........still not wearing the uniform and now don't even meet the criteria to even apply this time!

The BA recruitment process is the most protracted, inefficient and just damn right ridiculous process there is, so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do.

The only purpose it serves is to degrade the achievement of getting into the UK's flag carrier airline as it's based on small percentage of skill, and a large percentage on luck, timing and paperwork.

[G-F0RC3]

It’s easier to quantify differences between candidates with aptitude tests than anything else, and I suspect that’s the reason the tests are carried out in addition to the simulator assessments. If there were only x available jobs and x + 30 candidates met the minimum requirements in everything, how would you objectively determine who was going to make it and who wasn’t? Using the scores obtained in the aptitude tests is a reliable way of making the decision; even if what they are measuring is not raw piloting ability or necessarily any use whatsoever on the job.

[Superpilot]

My turn soon :\

[truckflyer]

I have not applied BA myself, however I do agree regarding the nonsense of the Aptitude tests.

These tests does slightly favour younger people, I know from past experience, these set of skills requires more a quick fresh brain, than actual set of amazing skills!

Set a 10 year old child, who is a computer game wizzard to try to perform these tests, I am pretty sure he will outperform most able pilots with massive margins!

I have seen some of these tests, and played around with some of them too. These cross hair test can be practised so many places now, and based on this should not be a valid test, as practice makes master, no doubt!

Play, Repeat, Sleep, Play, Sleep, Repeat!

Enough times, and you will master this multi - tasking test! So what does this say about the applicant, if he has practised for 3 weeks before he arrived?

You need to understand the reason these tests exists, it is because somebody claims to have an innovative idea where they claim that this will provide the best candidates for such recruitment.
An HR company has sold the idea, that this will help get the best people!

Will it? Maybe, maybe not! There is no positive proof that it works or not! But there is one winner, the HR company that provided and made these tests!
Money money money!

[Dannyboy39]

I don't fly for BA, but would you care to explain this:


so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do.


How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it?

[Popgun]

Psychometric tests are, unfortunately, a very blunt tool. As noted above, they can be practiced...ensuring skewed results.

But...they cut recruitment costs significantly when there are thousands upon thousands of suitable applicants.

The tests will predict outcomes with reasonable efficacy over a large sample size but sometimes get it very wrong.

This is where a competent and well resourced recruitment department will use a human touch to rule in (or as importantly, out), candidates that otherwise did not score within the required parameters.

The tests will always keep some excellent pilots from joining an airline and unfortunately allow some mis-hires through the front door!

But that's life in general, isn't it? No one said it would be fair!

[bananaman2]

I don't fly for BA, but would you care to explain this:


Quote:
so it's no wonder why good pilots don't get in and others do.

How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it?




sorry, something going on with the 'quote' function... but with regards to the above post, surely folk who might have been in a hold pool that was 'dissolved' (as one of the previous guys said) or who have never had the opportunity to apply for BA because they were in the 'wrong place at the wrong time' e.g sept 11th or financial crisis 2009 (and now flying for numerous airlines around the world e.g emirates, cathay etc) may lay claim they are of an 'appropriate fit' for BA but have been excluded. These folk may no longer wish to join BA but we are merely debating the merit of the assessment process. On the other hand when BMI was absorbed by BA, there were folk in BMI from P2F schemes... who correct me if i'm wrong never had to do an assessment with BA. Of course that's not to say, they are of an inferior standard or wouldn't get and pass an assessment if they applied directly but they were in the right place at the right time - this is just one example.


On another point what annoys me, is people bang on about the 'required fit'/stereotype and that personality is essential i.e skills you can train personality you cannot, so it suggests as long as you meet the minimums (and our aspirations are to achieve the best we can, over and above the minimums!) there is so much more that they are looking for. However Stage 1 really seems to be a bit random and an elimination process as BA or any other company for that matter simply wouldn't have the resources to interview everyone.... so if you happen to be on assessment where everyone was performing highly then you might get chopped even if you scored very highly and there was someone else better than you. The response is always the same though... 'you failed to demonstrate the skills BA is looking for' - could handle it if they just said you did well but there was someone else better than you! So while personality is important you might not even be given the chance to demonstrate this through interview, even if you meet the minimum standards - you're being judge purely on tests despite having an 'x' year incident free flying record... Anyway that's life, it doesn't just happen in Aviation assessments.

[truckflyer]

I know plenty of more than able pilots, that would fit the BA mould and much experience, who would be happy to join BA!
However from the start of making an essay and Aptitude tests before you get to the interview stage, they are not even bothered to apply!

There is a lot to be desired, and we do not live in a perfect world! That some basic computer game from the 80's decides what way you career is heading is for me beyond a joke! :ugh:

But those are the rules of the game! I seriously doubt that there was somebody from background from aviation who seriously promoted these obsolete games, however there are HR companies who needs to make money, so they create such products first to the companies for their recruitment, and then training packages to the applicants!

End of the day, it all comes down to MONEY!

[G-F0RC3]

Interestingly, people don’t seem to complain nearly as much about having to sit maths or physics tests. Surely if you can fly a plane and do all the required calculations in a simulator then maths and physics tests are as redundant as computer-based aptitude tests at determining your ability to do the job? I mean, is it any more valid that you can calculate the volume of a hemisphere than it is that you can demonstrate positional awareness in an unfamiliar situation? I’d argue not, and yet it’s the aptitude test that gets slated.

But we can debate the efficacy of aptitude tests until we’re Smurf-faced. Whichever way you look at it, it clearly works for BA as there will be no shortage of high quality candidates for them to pick and choose from as they wish. So if it’s whoever can jump on the most Goombas wins then that’s what it is; and if you want to join them then you should practise doing just that. :)

[student88]

Come on guys, it's just a way of picking the 'best of whats on offer. Just because you didn't get invited to stage 2 it doesn't make you a bad pilot at all.

It doesn't mean BAs standards are the highest of all airlines either, its just a way for them to fairly cut down the numbers.

I'm sure there are loads of guys who didn't even get an invite to assessment who are great operators and would be an asset to BA and its customers.

I'd be a bit pissed off and perhaps even anti-BA if I was un successful too, its a perfectly natural human reaction.

[Megaton]

I'm not in recruitment but from conversations from those that are, I'm led to believe that the aptitude and psychometric tests are used as discriminants in borderline applicants. You're not being selected on the basis of these tests but if there are doubts about you at the interview stage, they'll look at the tests to assist in their decision-making process. The truth is that if you can't be bothered with the aptitude tests, there's probably a lot of other stuff about BA you won't like either so perhaps it's best for all parties. Doesn't mean to say you're an inferior pilot but BA want more than just pilots these days. They are painful but since it's uneconomic to put every applicant through a full flight sim, BA obviously consider them useful. Furthermore, these tests have been running for many years now. If BA was unhappy with the results, don't you think they'd have ceased using them long ago?

[Stage5]

I do enjoy all this harping on about cost and money. If the ATOs charge a couple of hundred bob to sit the same process, why not BA? They are not using the aptitude test to determine whether or not you can fly. Your EASA licence and type rating(s) demonstrate that already.

[FlyingTinCans]

How exactly do you define this? That's a bit disrespectful isn't it?

Other people have answered that question for me, so I won't bother repeating what's already been said.

With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me!

It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance:

This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying:

"Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes:

"Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email:

"Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great"

12 months later:

"Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!"

6 months later :

"Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best"

3 months later:

No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not."

Repeat the above for 100's of pilots.

Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments.

[Callsign Kilo]

I concur with Flyingtincans. The whole process can be agony; especially when you push yourself all the way to the top and get cast aside. You then watch pay points change, pilots from another airline get absorbed (a legal requirement) and numerous FPP cadets fill spaces. There is doom and gloom surrounding any future DEP requirements, you are told that you would have to reapply and sit the whole process again, but only if deemed eligible. However BA don't foresee DEP requirements until late 2015; then what? A dozen bus rated guys get offers at the turn of the year and recruitment opens again in the summer! This happens and happens again even though the pilot recruiters appear embarrassed about it when asked. Other people simply walk through with no issue whatsoever. I, however, remain reluctant about putting myself or my family through that episode again. Not sour grapes, just frustration speaking. Plus, at my age, it just wouldn't be worth it anymore.

[Balvenie]

You then watch pay points change, pilots from another airline get absorbed (a legal requirement)

I don't think they are "YOUR" pay points until you actually work for BA. The BMI guys you refer to do the same job - fly A320s from LHR , so if their company has been taken over why shouldn't they be absorbed, do you expect them to be thrown out so somebody like you can be taken out the hold pool and trained on the 320 to take one of their slots (if you can pass the TR !)

If you really want to work for BA go and get yourself a 320 rating rather than whinging about the selection, then you can get a head start - If thats where you want to work.

[drfaust]

If you can pass the rating? Really? Are you trying to somehow suggest that BA's training is so inadequate that professional, experienced pilots regularly fail to convert on to a different type? Spare us the nonsense please. If you've jumped through all the hoops, it's simply not fair to 'wipe the slate clean' and delete the entire hold pool after an arbitrary period of time. It's not the candidates fault BMI got took over and his job offer got delayed.

The people that passed the selection should have had a job offer when there was place for them. Whether it took one, four or five years. That would have been only respectful to people that took the time, effort and energy to go through all that stuff in the first place. It would have only been right to leave it up to the candidate to make the decision whether, after all that time, they should accept a job offer or not.

[Balvenie]

Its not the BMI pilots fault he never started with BA !

Im not talking about how good the training is at BA as to if he would pass the TR but as to if he was able to pass the TR. I have known previous colleagues who got into BA but did not pass the 320 TR.

[a-ricky-town]

Yesterday I did my assesment and got a positive reply within two hours. Can anyone tell me anything about the personal interview and the group exercise? I would really appreciate any help. Feel free to post it here or send me a private message.

Thanks in advance!

:)

[Superpilot]

Recently did the tests and despite 2 weeks of preperation, I felt I performed quite bad. The maths test time pressure was incredible and the paper we had quite tricky compared to the questions mentioned on here (tricky given the time). The first capacity test is the same one that BA have been using for years, which seems to get more and more difficult with age! This time around I got more misses than hits. This is the same test I've passed twice in the past. The second one was enjoyable and relatively easy compared to the first. Verbal Reasoning test I found bearable but I prepared for it quite well. Expecting a negative next week.

Good luck the rest of you. A special thanks to Dornier228 and a-ricky-town.

[Callsign Kilo]

Balvenie
You obviously didn't bother reading my post properly and took what you wanted from it. Completely misinterpreted by yourself. I take it you must have skipped verbal reasoning on your way into the holy grail?

I have no desire to get myself a 320 rating unless a future employer decides it is necessary. Then it is up to them to provide and in turn up to me to pass. Presently, I no longer have the desire to to be assessed for BA again so in that context I no longer wish to work for them. Due to my age, my current position and many other factors, I no longer feel BA offers what it once did (as stated in my previous post). A lot changes in 3 years.

I never described the pay point change as MY paypoint. It's something that happened after I passed selection and in turn made things a little more unattractive. Neither did I suggest that the bmi pilots shouldn't have been 'tuped' across. I don't get where the anti-bmi sentiment comes from? Yes it contributed to the death of the pool, but business is business and the law surrounding mergers & acquisitions is there to protect. Simply coincidental fate.

Your response was akin to that of a scolded child lashing out at something they had no desire to understand. I merely suggest the process is frustrating and can leave you with zero reward. I'm not the only person to admit this. It is demanding, stressful and costly. It carries quite a bit of emotional baggage. Nothing prepares you for the elation of achieving something well sought after, only to be dropped with little chance of return. You throw the dice, you take the chances. You know a hold pool position isn't a job offer but 100s of other DEPs were hired, so you'll get your chance too; right? Yet there's a million and one variables that you may have to contend with. It isn't straightforward.

[bex88]

Bmi did not have any P2F pilots. Yes they ran a training program but these pilots were not employed by bmi and once their training was complete they had to seek employment elsewhere. The program was stopped in 2010 / early 2011 long before BA took over.

Fair or not the recruitment process is what it is.

[unlucky]

So many people on here seem to write bad about airlines and hr departments
This site is to give help and give advice
Does anybody have an idea of what the latest BA tests have in them this month
Can any body write some questions down of what they remember please.
Guys lets all help each other get our dream jobs wherever they are.
Thanks

[777X]

Bmi did not have any P2F pilots. Yes they ran a training program but these pilots were not employed by bmi and once their training was complete they had to seek employment elsewhere :ugh:

These the guys that paid £60k+ to Cpt C for a TR and line training? Sounds like P2F to me! If they weren't employed to fly bmi planes, what would you call these pilots?

Didn't BMI then employ some of these folk just a few months before the BA take over? Same guys now flying ba mainline..

The programme was stopped in 2010 / early 2011 long before BA took over

The take over was announced in 2011

[bex88]

The point I am making ref the P2F is that no pilot was on a P2F course during or shortly before the take over and then merged into BA under illusion they were an employee when in fact they were P2F. All pilots who were part of the merger were fully employed bmi pilots. Yes bmi ran a P2F scheme for a limited number and a limited time.

Did bmi have ex P2F pilots who then subsequently got employed by bmi later? Yes they did. Some were on the 737 in the mid 90s and are now captains and yes I think 2 possibly 3 of the pilots on the scheme on the airbus gained employment with bmi after serving time at other airlines.

The program stopped end of 2010 very early 2011 but the merger did not get announced till late 2011 and confirmed in April 2012. I think the few your refer to who were taken on months before the merger were DEP and that equates to one very capable pilot. I also don't think the P2F scheme was anything like 60k.

Good luck to them, right place right time and I would suspect hard earned. Either by work or by cash whichever is your viewpoint

[bigjarv]

Other people have answered that question for me, so I won't bother repeating what's already been said.

With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me!

It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance:

This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying:

"Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes:

"Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email:

"Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great"

12 months later:

"Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!"

6 months later :

"Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best"

3 months later:

No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not."

Repeat the above for 100's of pilots.

Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments.

Just wanted to read it again!! Spot on!

Life takes it's turns and doors open and close but BA recruitment policy and planning does not shower the company in glory!! Not professional or fair or capable or honourable and occasionally quite underhand asking candidates to hush hush to achieve a goal. That attitude wouldn't stand up in their own recruitment process!!

[NigelOnDraft]

Life takes it's turns and doors open and close but BA recruitment policy and planning does not shower the company in glory!! Not professional or fair or capable or honourable and occasionally quite underhand asking candidates to hush hush to achieve a goal. That attitude wouldn't stand up in their own recruitment process!!If you cannot cope with a seemingly illogical and drawn out recruitment process, then by default it has achieved it's aim ;) It reflects BA well :ooh:

This is not a criticism of any individual in the recruitment team - nor necessarily the wider BA Mgmt team. But the size of BA, the various departments and processes mean the above experience is typical.

As an example I could try and describe the time and efforts to move one clearly abandoned car from the crew car park (which is over-subscribed as it is). Years this has been going on, and I think it is still there :rolleyes:

[wiggy]

NOD

If you cannot cope with a seemingly illogical and drawn out recruitment process, then by default it has achieved it's aim It reflects BA well

:D

.....And as for telling the tale of that (infamous) car, don't try.......if you tell that story to anyone who has never worked for BA "they'd never believe you" (spoken with a Yorkshire accent...:E)

[5aday]

I was in Munich checking my texts during a turnround and one was a text to contact my wife who said Meadowbank had rung asking if I would coming over from Berlin for an interview. . I'd got one more sector Munich- Tegel so I landed in Berlin and deadheaded on the BA.
I did day 1 at Meadow Bank, and at the close of play, I was told there was an empty slot on day 2 the next day which would save me coming back from Berlin. What was there not to like about that. At the end of Day 2, the Captain and Human remains guy just made things very simple - subject to the medical (the next day) I would get an offer by the weekend and could I give notice to my company straight away. Yes I said, with the offer letter in my hand I would but not until. That was Thursday and the offer arrived on Friday. I was in Cranebank four weeks later and type rated on the Classic about ten weeks after joining. The -400 followed about 12 months later as promised. It seems things have changed a bit since then.
All I can say is get in as soon as possible, no matter on what type, and get on the Seniority List.

[Callsign Kilo]

Ahh, the days before online applications, recruitment profiles & automated emails. Much more personal. Imagine having to phone someone to invite them to an interview/assessment! :-)

[bigjarv]

NOD it appears I dodged a bullet then!!!! :)

As one door closed, another opened and so far I appear to be a very lucky boy!

Guaranteed thou, everything will get worse but hopefully more slowly where I am but then again.... Who knows!!

There's a voice that keeps on calling me
Down the road, that's where I'll always be.
Every stop I make, I make a new friend,
Can't stay for long, just turn around and I'm gone again

Maybe tomorrow, I'll want to settle down,
Until tomorrow, I'll just keep moving on.

La la la laaaaaa....

[bex88]

WhyByFlier.........I can't lie without smirking

[Flaps0]

I've been fortunate enough to get an invite to interview at the end of the week. Anybody know the format? Mixture of HR and tech questions?

[Karen85]

Has anyone been invited to the sim yet? Did interview last week but haven't heard anything back yet.

[dontforgetthecowls]

Good luck to those attending interviews and group exercises. Don't make the same mistake as someone on my day by referring to the head of pilot recruitment as a captain. He wasn't one at the time (not sure if that's changed).

Good and bad news from the air show. 20 neos ordered for short haul but will only be allocated if short haul returns a profit! Until then it's still wizz's cast off's.

IAG - International Airlines Group - News Release (http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1946964&highlight=)

These aircraft are currently intended to replace 21 shorthaul British Airways’ aircraft but will be reallocated if the airline cannot make a profitable return from its shorthaul business.

[Captain Spam Can]

I haven't heard a yea or nah and my assesment was 2 weeks ago, are others in the same position?

[Superpilot]

I received a rejection the next working day. You might want to chase up.

[kirungi1]

Commiserations, Superpilot - hard luck but there is always next time. It is how we respond to adversity that sets us apart.

[Mikehotel152]

Callsignkilo, your BA experience mirrors mine. I suspect we went through the process side by side back in 2011 (?). FlyingTinCans' eloquently written summary of the recruitment process is fairly accurate in timescale and content, in my experience, and it has always been thus with BA. Personally, back in 2011 BA 'made sense', but now I find myself closer to 40 than 30 and with a command on a Boeing, so BA's 2011 assessment that I was 'the right sort' for their operation probably no longer applies in 2014.:p

As for the BMI pilots/sympathisers who vigorously defend the tupe regs, I have some empathy. However, the irony and hypocrisy of a recruitment procedure that places such emphasises on aptitude, verbal reasoning and maths tests, group and individual interviews and then (let's face it) disregards it for 300 pilots is 'curious' to say the least. Of course, I would be equally pleased if I got into BA through the tupe route! ;)

At the end of the day, we all fly very similar aeroplanes to very similar operating procedures. Some of us work far harder for a lot less money, and naturally feel rather jealous! ;)

[Superpilot]

Thanks kirungi1

Onwards and upwards.

[Megaton]

the irony and hypocrisy of a recruitment procedure that places such emphasises on aptitude, verbal reasoning and maths tests, group and individual interviews and then (let's face it) disregards it for 300 pilots is 'curious' to say the least.

Do you think BA really had any choice? When BMI was taken over, BA weren't buying the pilots, they were buying the slots. This is not the first time that a group of pilots have joined BA without having had to pass selection. It's not ideal but, whether you like it or not, BA cannot disregard the law.

[F/O UFO]

Is anyone else yet to find out their fate having done the first day of assessment? I did mine nearly two weeks ago and I've still not got a yay or nay...

[Mikehotel152]

Ham Phisted,

Of course I know BA didn't have a choice, which is why I referred to TUPE and said it was ironic that their recruitment process was negated so spectacularly.

When your parent company (IAG) makes a commercial decision you have to bite the bullet... I'm sure there were lots of very good BMI pilots who joined BA's ranks, but there will have been those who joined but would never have passed selection.

[Megaton]

There's no hypocrisy on BA's part which is what you you said. They had no choice.

I'm sure there were lots of very good BMI pilots who joined BA's ranks, but there will have been those who joined but would never have passed selection.

You are definitely correct with this assertion and I believe that BA has taken remedial action for those that have perhaps struggled to come to terms with the transition from BMI.

[drfaust]

Went through the hoops today. I think I speak for everyone when I say that the capacity tests were downright awful. :) I expect nothing but a PFO. Best of luck to all applying, I really did find it very difficult.

[Al Murdoch]

Why didn't the law apply to the bmibaby pilots?

[Watersidewonker]

Been advised that bid line will cease effective April 2015 not great news for planning your month ahead it's just another example of the downward slope at BA

[wiggy]

Not quite WW, there's no talk of a scheduling system called "Bidline" ceasing, that would be a step too far, but it is morphing at a very rapid rate ......

There's a bit of a long game being played at the moment between the Reps and the company, and it's not a good time for the Short haul community. The union reps are certainly catching some grief at the moment....however if the Reps are right about manning levels, or the lack of, some in management could perhaps find themselves with a "no tea, no biscuits" interview in Madrid if we end up with significant cancellations in August because of a lack of manpower.

That said IMHO BALPA are playing a high risk game, I hope for the membership's sake they've got it right.

[Watersidewonker]

Fair comment Wiggy I expect quite a few August cancellations with morale dipping by the day this force draft mechanism seems to be counter productive with sickness levels increasing. I can see trouble on the horizon especially with operations being reviewed with regards to cost savings needed.

[a-ricky-town]

Hi,

I did my interview yesterday, how long can I expect to wait until I get an answer? If I were successful, when are they planning to run the sim check?

Thanks

:)

[SinBin]

Watersidewonker, stop trolling, you're talking nonsense, go back to worrying about cabin crew stuff!

[Watersidewonker]

Anyone considering joining as a pilot at BA should read the following article and decide do they really want to join a company where profits are more important than the safety of it's employees and customers. If BA can't even gets it's cabin crew to turn up for this flight ( delay today ) maybe serious questions must be asked in light of other airlines concerns.

British Airways continues Israel flights despite rocket landing near Ben Gurion Airport | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702411/British-airlines-cancel-flights-Israel-rocket-lands-near-main-tourist-airport-Tel-Aviv.html)

PS sinbin your trolling accusations are totally unfounded with your head buried in the sand once again no wonder your're not seeing the bigger picture.

[Callsign Kilo]

..however if the Reps are right about manning levels, or the lack of, some in management could perhaps find themselves with a "no tea, no biscuits" interview in Madrid if we end up with significant cancellations in August because of a lack of manpower.

It's great to see that the Waterside management have managed to get manpower so wrong when this time last year they were adamant that they had got it so right. Shameful to see BA shorthaul being the scapegoat. Another kick in the knackers for the industry; I'd be wary about joining now for all the reasons stated. Unless you are stuck somewhere you don't want to be, namely overseas with no chance to get home plus very limited prospects then you ought to question your motives.

[FANS]

Don't worry about it, BA will have no problem filling the RHS.

[SinBin]

Watersidewonker, all you are doing is trying to wind people up, you bring no benefit to this thread with unfounded rumour after unfounded rumour backed up by some journalistic :mad: from none other the Mail:D. It's not great at the moment I'll give you that, but it's still a dammed sight better than other outfits I can tell you. Oh and my eyes are wide open too thanks very much!

[Watersidewonker]

Consider the facts sinbin the good old Daily Mail was very very supportive towards BA during the cabin crew dispute of 2010 very anti union i must say. Many would have thought that the pilots union would be pulling the strings with regards to safety concerns examples being Tripoli Tel Aviv and Nairobi alas weakness is quite evident. Any pilot considering joining must consider promotion prospects are very limited coupled with poor starter rates and a fragmented workforce something akin to the masons. Major changes are in the pipeline with a raw deal being served up by an aggressive management structure driven by the next bonus payment. Good luck at your interviews.

[SkyRocket10]

Many would have thought that the pilots union would be pulling the strings with regards to safety concerns examples being Tripoli Tel Aviv and Nairobi alas weakness is quite evident. Any pilot considering joining must consider promotion prospects are very limited coupled with poor starter rates

Perhaps if you have such grave concerns and are indeed a pilot as you seem to promote, please give the BA security team a call and they will be happy to talk you through how they arrived at their decision to continue operations. It is a risk assessment and no BA pilot would operate there if they were not completely confident in the safety of the flight.
As for promotion prospects, depending on aspirations it looks likely that a LGW shorthaul command will come down to around 8yrs this winter. Perhaps Heathrow is currently circa 15yrs, but it won't take much for this to drop so take whatever is quoted now as pure guess work.
Starting salary for a new joiner will rise to around 65k in sept (inc allowances). I don't think you will find many FO positions with a starting salary of this scale.

As for bid line, yes it will evolve, but the basis of how we bid for work will remain exactly the same (based on seniority).

[Lindsay Craig]

WW

Thank you for your posts on this forum thread.

Rather than use the anonymous medium for spreading your thoughts, if you'd like to have a conversation by telephone please drop me a private message so we can set that up. I'd be happy to discuss any of the points you raise, and give you my thoughts and point of view on them.

I hope you take me up on the offer,

Kind regards

Lindsay Craig
Manager Pilot Recruitment
British Airways

[Superpilot]

Well, strike me down! It's true! :E

[BARKINGMAD]

Oh dear WW, better get that exercise book down the back of your trousers before receiving 6 of the best from a cane, where it hurts!!!

If it's true that BA can't launch scheduled services as a result of mis-management of personnel (sorry, human resources!), then who should be up for a firing, without a golden handshake??

Most unlikely it would be a coalface worker, but truth is stranger than fiction......

SkyRocket10. If you're connected with the BA security team, remind them of the content of my posting #871 on the MH17 thread, they may be too young to remember such events. Those who forget history.....................:sad:

Amendment List #1. SkyRocket10, disregard my last, my posting # 871 has been excised from that thread. I wonder why?

[largegeorgejones]

Cor blimey governor! Sticking your neck out here aren't you Lindsay? Your company and it's recruitment policies have inflicted some deep deep scars on people affecting their lives and aspirations.

Why rely on WW to spread the word after your private conversation? Why don't you just put us all out our misery here and tell us how it really is rather than trying to scare people from expressing an opinion? If you want to engage in the forum then why not do it properly, but be careful.... A lot of people are watching and we all know how unpredictable anonymous forums can be.

This says more about BA than anything else on the whole thread!!

[CABUS]

Instead of just dismissing what WW is saying as bitter inflamed rubbish, which some of it is, some questions do need answering. Are the promotion prospects better than he suggests, have the new starter pay scales and pension been degraded by the present work force in an attempt to keep their own standing and is the workforce still fragmented? These are points which should seriously affect a decision whether or not to join a major carrier at the bottom of a seemingly endless seniority list.

An open question from a bystander.

[wiggy]

Wiggy, .........what do you predict for someone joining BA now? (With the caveat it is just your informed opinion - and the same request to any of the other BA employees who contribute). 10 years as an FO on A320, no life style, 20 years+ to command and none of the perks of yesteryear? Strong potential to be sidelined into a franchise/ separate AOC/ regionalised? I'm afraid I don't back this company as the golden egg it once was - it's a fine career, not a great career.

Yes, something like that, though I'd guess at more than 10 years as an FO on the 320 at LHR.

There are certainly heavy hints that Shorthaul must do better ....or else ( and since IAG call the shots I guess you can work out what some people are worried about).

Lifestyle - we're in the middle of a major shake up of our scheduling agreement - what we will end up with is anyone's guess but I'm sure it will still be called "Bidline":E...

As for perks, well frankly the profit share this year was regarded as being p. poor...

I certainly know one or two of my short haul colleagues who moved to BA from a Major LoCo are now wondering if they did the right thing. That said I'm sure LC will never be short of applicants.


( who as a line pilot is struggling to see how/why somebody brought Masons into the debate, maybe that's a Waterside thing :ooh:)

[Watersidewonker]

I can't help but wondering is that can of worms well and truly open with regards to the ongoing recruitment campaign faltering or not only time will tell. As for an invitation to have a private conversation with Lindsay i think i'm old enough and wise enough to realise that it would be like a visit to the headmasters office for a quiet chat. I never use to hear about pilots leaving to go and join Emirates and other airlines well that is indeed the case this last year or so. Rightfully so as expressed by previous posters questions need to have answers why such a mess has come about cancelled flights force draft i can tell you all one simple answer cutbacks cutbacks cutbacks. Never before has it been more evident from cabin crew to ground staff to engineering that cost cutting has it's negative side such as waiting 20 minutes for a TRM to become available to operate the jetty pathetic response especially at the so called hub. I could write till the cows come home about the mismanagement within BA so plain to see everyday instigated by someone we all love exiled in Madrid.

[Bengerman]

WW

instigated by someone we all love exiled in Madrid.

Ho ho, and you love him more than most, don't you WW?

[Nelson15]

Worth considering those that joined the company 6 months ago are now 15-20% off the bottom of the 320 LHR list, and well into trip line territory.

Whoever can predict the seniority levels of LH p2 needs or even time to command in the next decade or so has a better crystal ball than I do, though that said, more LH hulls are coming. Staying LoCo means LH wouldn't be an option anyway right enough.

All in all, I've worked in places where moral is much worse, and general day to day work for me as a junior FO is quite pleasant.

[Lindsay Craig]

Hello LGJ (did I get that right?)

Well, thanks for your post. I might be "sticking my neck out" but every year since I have been in this role I and my colleagues have taken/answered thousands of calls and emails, letters and CVs etc, in response to the pilot recruitment process at BA. We have endeavoured to reply to them all, despite the volume, and although we have a small backlog we do try to respond to everyone. We don't hold CVs though, just to be clear.

I am sorry if you have been affected by one of the events that have happened over the years, but without chatting face to face I can't be sure which thing/s you refer to, nor do I have the opportunity to talk from this side about what happened, or what I think of that situation.

That's why, having known about this forum since 1997, I have always treated it with the same caution as the flying instructor who introduced me to it advised - anonymity brings major issues when communicating, and using electronic media mean that all the visual and verbal elements of communicating are lost. Tone is reduced to CAPS lock or smilies, all a bit of a shame. I much prefer face to face, or by phone. I will answer honestly, and am disappointed to hear that WW thinks I would give some kind of headmasterly chat. Far from it, I can only surmise that s/he and I have never met before? I would like to take the feedback, debate it one to one, and try to achieve understanding of both sides of the debate.

I don't intend to become a regular poster on this forum, as the volume of work going on at the moment is high, and I need to dash now to something important. However, I value very highly the commitment and effort all applicants to BA show when applying, and am keen to talk to applicants etc, without the pprune anonymity, should they so wish.

Safe flying everyone

Lindsay

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Watersideplonker, I'm truly sorry to hear about the problem with your keyboard - it must be a nightmare not being able to use a comma within your trite scribblings. It has been troubling you for such a long time - have you considered asking BASSA or UNITE for some funds to get a new keyboard? Perhaps they could pass on to you one of their old cast-offs? Be sure to get one that has a working Caps key!

[brakedwell]

Be sure to get one that has a working Caps key!

And with an A where the O should be ;)

[EastofKoksy]

Well ladies and gents, as self loading cargo, I have had 2 short haul flights cancelled by BA in the last 6 months due to lack of pilots. An airline without pilots is like a petrol station without petrol - not a great deal of use! BA clearly have issues with pilot numbers and need to do something about it ASAP.

[Watersidewonker]

Stuart you list your only interest as painting sounds like you have nothing better to add than criticise someone's punctuation maybe it's a little presumptuous of me to assume watching paint dry is like having a conversation with you.

[largegeorgejones]

LC This post from a little earlier in the thread says it all. It's not what you do but the way that you do it! And the last bit about private phone calls to some "expired" candidates. Ah you're smart enough to know why that stinks.

With regard to the actual process itself. I'm not even knocking the 'aptitude' side of it nor the 'essay questions' - I've passed them twice, they seem to agree with me!

It's just the way BA go about their business, for instance:

This was my experience, twice. And I'm sure there are thousands of guys reading this thread while constantly logging on to the BA website because they received a generic email saying:

"Congrats you got through stage one, pick a date for stage 2, but wait there are no dates, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 minutes every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

And if you are lucky to be in front of computer on the day, get to stage 2 and pass it, the next email comes:

"Congrats you got through stage two, pick a date for the SIM, but wait there are no slots, but don't worry we will release them soon, but we can't tell you when, or when you need to check, or how many there will be, so just spend every 10 mins every day looking, and if you are flying the day we release them, well tough luck but they will be gone by the time you land"

Wow must really be lucky, I'm at my computer again! Go to the SIM, and get another email:

"Congrats you passed the SIM, we would like to welcome you to BA, but wait, there are no firm jobs for you, because it takes pilots so long to get through our recruitment process, we have to recruit so far in advance we don't actually know our requirements when we open recruitment, we just sort of wing it. But don't worry, there will be a seat for you to fill on one of our fleets soon, can't tell you when though, but should be within the next 12 months, so if you wouldn't mind terribly putting your career on hold while we figure out what's going on that would be great"

12 months later:

"Hi us at BA again, sorry we have not been in touch we've been busy brainstorming, networking, touching base & conferencing ideas about what our recruitment plan is. Our official policy is to make guys do the whole drawn out process again, we have thought about making it a bit more streamlined, however we are BA, this is how we have always done it, and even though it doesn't work, we are gonna do it this way anyway. But we are gonna do you favour, we are gonna extend our policy to 18 months & keep you hanging that little bit longer because we are gentlemanly like that. Be in touch soon, cheerio!"

6 months later :

"Hi, us at BA again! This big recruitment picture is god awfully tough to work out, but we are getting there slowly, however things move quickly in aviation and BA doesn't, so I'm awfully sorry to tell you we have done nothing but waste your time, and we will now pretend we have no record of you, so if we ever do work out this big picture, you will have to go through it all again, but we don't mind, it's been so long since you did the tests, you've probably forgotten all the answers, anyway all the best"

3 months later:

No email from BA, why would they. But a text from a colleague "Mate BA just called, they miscalculated their numbers, I start next week because I didn't get a SIM slot till 3 months after you did so I'm still in the pool and that whole 3 months means I'm still BA material and you are not."

Repeat the above for 100's of pilots.

Now I'm not suggesting BA recruitment do the above on purpose, that's life and you should just pull up your socks and get on with it, and I'm definitely not the only Ppruner with a BA sob story. But I hope it goes someway to showing others why ex-pool Pilots feel frustrated with the process and why there is an overwhelming feeling of more luck than skill needed, above the normal "Well I didn't pass the aptitude test, so they must be stupid" comments.

[Callsign Kilo]

Let's not forget that Mr Craig's hand is dealt by those within the Waterside. Draining of pools, reinstating candidates (if so the case), reopening DEP recruitment etc etc is attributable to faceless managers who appear to have made some error in calculation somewhere in the last 12 months

[Air1980]

Maybe if they ditched the overly long interview process they would find themselves a little more nimble, and able to respond to hiring needs in a semi-realtime manner? Why on earth do BA insist upon this 1930s method of hiring? Delta Airlines can interview and hire you in one day, United takes under a week to respond. Do a quick phone screen, email a link for a personality test. If all goes well, then it's down to LHR for a sim check and face-to-face. Maybe even throw two candidates in the simulator for an actual, airplane based "group exercise." (I know, this is crazy talk).

Give the candidates a hotel room for the night before (and a sandwich for lunch), in acknowledgment of their efforts, and call them in a max of 7 days with a yes/no.

Can it really be that hard?!

Alas, however, I feel that the above method would prove disastrous for management personnel.....

[largegeorgejones]

CK... I'm pretty certain that if anyone can make a positive impact on BA recruitment it's the British Airways Recruitment Manager. I've spoken to Lindsay on the phone and he and his team are as he says, stand up guys trying their best no question. I'm delighted that these forums are monitored by them all. The true test is ability to evaluate, reassess and evolve. Don't work harder Lindsay, work smarter!

As to the future of life as a BA pilot, well the marketing department seem to interact with social media as a necessity, perhaps the recruitment department could do the same which is so much easier than one to one time consuming calls. Appreciate face to face is how it used to be done but.....

This is however way beyond my pay grade! I just didn't like the tone or the ethics. Expect high things from BA as they do from us. Nuff said!

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Stuart you list your only interest as painting sounds like you have nothing better to add than criticise someone's punctuation maybe it's a little presumptuous of me to assume watching paint dry is like having a conversation with you.
Is that the best you can do? I'm hurt! :rolleyes:

It would probably be far wiser to spend more of your time sorting out your punctuation-minimal keyboard.

[SinBin]

BA recruitment is a mystery! Not sure I agree with you on the personalities front. Most people at BA are quite normal! Even me!

[wiggy]

I think I'll leave it to LC to comment on recruiting..

As for personalities, I can't argue with someone's perceptions but I've always found the idea that there's a "BA type" or BA clone is a bit strange.:confused:...

In the last 25 +years BA have recruited, on and off, from the military (from the fast jet/heavy multi-engined community/rotary), other airlines, had their own cadets and now have the FPP's coming on line....and from across many nationalities. At the crew bus stop on no particular day you could be stood next to the overweight 60 year old White male Captain arguing with his wife on his mobile, the 30 something female Captain trying to sort out childcare because of her August roster :ugh:, two Dutch First Officers discussing football, and the brand new freshly minted FPP on his/her first line trip. Yes there are still some PITA, but it's generally a pretty good mix - I suspect not much different to most other airlines.

[Full Left Rudder]

WhyByFlier - may I politely suggest that it is highly likely to be your friend's personality that is the problem, not the BA employees' personalities. Anyone who dislikes such a large number of people is unlikely to be a "good egg".

Having worked at 4 airlines, including another major carrier, I can say that the vast majority of my BA colleagues are a pleasure to fly with. As indeed was the case at all of my previous airlines.

[kirungi1]

A good friend summed up BA for me these days - apart from 1 or 2 people - I never spoke to or liked anyone that BA have taken from the schools and airlines I've worked for. I clearly wouldn't get on well or fit in there and so have no interest in joining.

WhyByFlier, I'm going to agree with Full Left Rudder because I just can't see how BA's initiatives such as Beyond the Flight Deck would pitch with such attitude.
However difficult it would/could be, we have to try and believe that others are as important as we are. Satisfaction comes in serving/,getting on with, others well and consistently and it's easy for BA to spot these patterns.

[wiggy]

Ah OK, I see what you're getting at.

Pilapt, A laid back chat (Monarch style) and a good sim with lots of raw data, manual holds, a few failures (Air NZ style) would demonstrate far more in my opinion.

You're probably right and "back in the day" BA's DEP selection was a bit more along those lines ( though you still had to jump through the likes of a Maths test, regardless of your previous experience).. I certainly don't remember much evidence on the selectors looking at corporate man/woman side of things though I may have just missed it.

[Artie Fufkin]

WBF, I think you must know it's naive to assume the recruitment process is primarily tasked with finding "the best" - it's simply there these days to provide a legally defendable way to say no to the vastly over subscribed number of candidates BA will receive.

I'm sure every pilot, at every base, on every fleet, in every airline around the country can remember feeling at some time or other utterly shocked at those BA have both turned down and accepted over the years.

Nothing new, their train set etc...

[Air1980]

WBF, I completely agree with your sentiments. I'm glad you noticed the laminated cards too! Bizarre that there are no questions regarding your life outside the cockpit - family, hobbies, sports, interests etc. Leads to a very sterile and one-dimensional experience. I know they have their reasons, but surely they could disguise them somewhat!

[Callsign Kilo]

The process is designed to leave you clueless. That's how I felt anyway, especially after day 1 (back when it was a 2 day affair). However it's how you play to their tune on the day, which if you do enough research and practice, you can train yourself to perform. In essence you are training yourself to fit their psychometric profile. I think experience is important, those overly experienced (people with command time) or those having experience of previous DEP campaigns need to seriously adjust their outlook or not bother IMHO. The sim is much more straightforward and effective CRM with good implementation of decision making models will see you right. For Boeing guys, the 744 is very manageable. But of course DEP is a Airbus only now so as an insight the little toggle switch on the control column is for trimming!!

[Air1980]

Haha, "overly experienced". Get two candidates, stick them in the sim and see how they act and fly, then have a nice little chat about their lives and outlook. Experience coupled with personality is what is important, not whether you've memorized the "correct profile" and know the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Sparrow. Oh, and ditch those laminated cards....

[Callsign Kilo]

Well, I'd imagine the laminated cards are here to stay along with the psychometric profile. In terms of this campaign and experience, I'd imagine too much of 'whats important' will lead to your motives being prodded. A lot of people are talking about 10 years in the right hand seat of short haul and up to 20 years to command. A long with potential restructuring, that's a big thing to buy into.

[no sponsor]

Most people I fly with at BA are good people to be around. Same was true at my last airline. There are one or two oddballs, some of which didn't do selection in the first place. The constant is the management types though :ugh:

If you don't mind waiting 18+ years for a command, and declining T&Cs, then its the place to be! But to be honest, if I read through the Emirates thread or Cathay, or Qatar or any of the others, it doesn't seem any different, just the same ****.

Still, BA is much better than my last outfit. I'd rather look at the sun through a pair of binoculars than re-join them.

[Mick Stability]

As someone who has served many years in BA, as a second flying career, I have worked hard but have always enjoyed my job and the people I have flown with.

There is now though a very sinister undertone to the rhetoric which has convinced me that the Sun is very rapidly setting on one of the most respected and aspirational positions in aviation.

This is what someone from the BALPA CC said recently:

Challenges ahead.
NAPs. Changes to contracting out means BA NIC contributions increase. BA will ask to close NAPs.
EASA. BA's opening position is they are unlikely to allow B2B's due FMS (not FRMS). Bye-bye to commuting.
SH business review. No secret, BA want more, much more. And none of it "joined up" OneTeam.
Hotels. BA want premier inn class hotels and airport hotels to be included in bidding process.
Training out-sourced.
2014 - BA over-budget and want further significant cost savings. THIS YEAR.
2015 - IAG Project DXXXXX. "Structural change". Guess what that might mean? IAG have recently moved Hotels, and Supply/Cost board from BA into IAG.
UAV/Astraea - single pilot cruise ops. BACC reps already met with ASTRAEA program director to discuss. How many pilots would BA need if it moved to single pilot ops in the cruise? Do you know aircraft like the 777 already have a FAIL OPERATIONAL autopilot capability in the cruise as well as on ILS? CPCLC beyond line of sight comms? Do you know a virtual certification process for UAV in commercial airspace has been approved?


There is little doubt that 'IAG', which is in effect Willy Walsh's office in Waterside, have determined to decimate the pilot contract, and deliver Ryanair T&Cs in the increasingly near future.

The airline that I once loved to work for has become a very unhappy place to be. You can forget drunken nights out in Barcelona. These days you'll be lucky if anyone's got the energy for a quick one round the corner. More and more you find individuals who are utterly exhausted as they run into the various statutory limits, including 900hrs a year.

You'd imagine the pilot management might have cottoned on to the climate of bitterness and recrimination, but in a recent thread on the company forum, 1200 posts and 200,000 views extracted virtually no response from the very manager who opened it.

Anecdotally, the chief pilot was approached as to what he was going to do with the plummeting morale amongst his department. His response was to ask what relevance morale has for the bottom line. In short, he couldn't give a :mad:. A similar question to the board solicited a response that there is less than 5% churn amongst new fleet crew, and virtually none amongst the pilots. Industry norms amongst other customer service players would consider 5% as a good indication that staff are happy. Hence until the board see the empty recruitment in-boxes and the cancelled flights due no pilots, nothing is going to change anytime soon.

I'm deeply saddened that it's come to this, but in what was always going to be a very challenging programme - instead of supporting the flight crew as they kept the show on the road, they've smuggled through permanent change under the cover of temporary alleviations, sanctioned by what appears to be a weak and naïve union management.

I would never suggest to any aspiring and ambitious future pilot that they should avoid BA, I was once one of you. But I want you to know what's happening in this company, and how you will be regarded by a rapacious, cynical management who resent you and your profession.

[speedrestriction]

Single pilot cruise?

Crash: LAM E190 over Botswana/Namibia on Nov 29th 2013, captain intentionally crashed aircraft (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=46c3abde&opt=0)

Thank you, but I think I'll take the boat.

[flite idol]

Great post Mick Stability:ok:

[Fat Dog]

Have been thinking recently that drowning in the pool a year or so ago was good for me. This has added weight to that feeling.

[clearofconflict]

It does seem that people are drifting slightly from thread purpose. Whilst those of you who have always been or have been for a long time are mourning the passing of the good old days of BA, the fact of the matter is, is that compared to most jobs out there, it still has superior T&C's. It is still an excellent place to fly a variety of aircraft and have various opportunities in and out of the flightdeck. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots around Europe who would jump at the chance, and so please feel free to swap places. As for the morale issue, a workplace is only as happy as you make it!

[Chief Brody]

It would be very easy for the pilot managers to respond to the various concerns the pilot community has. That they don't is imho indicative that many of those worries about the future are very justified.

The silence speaks volumes. It has been one-way traffic for an extremely long time...

We helped during the cc strikes.
We have taken a pay freeze + accepted less than inflation pay deals - ie pay cuts
We have had to fight hard for an RPI linked deal this year - during a time of profit!
We have largely embraced BFD
We have become adept at safe SE taxing - saving the company millions annually
We as part of the BMI integration deal - agreed to a 5% saving of SH Bidline, gave 2 days holiday back, changed pp24 to pp34 for new joiners, dropped the holiday pay entitlement claim - even though this was ruled legal by the highest court in Europe
We have seen our workload increase even through minor stuff like the fuel app

Yes they hold 'chats' , coffee and doughnut mornings and 'have a brew with Drew' etc - but what you really get is some face time with amateur politicians and in reality afterwards you'd be equally as informed by consulting a ouija board.

The truth is it is time for BALPA to grow a pair. Softly softly gently gently has lead to the above. Time me thinks for a course correction.

Apologies for the thread creep.

[Watersidewonker]

Chief Brody I'm alarmed by your first point We helped during the cc strikes.

Now that shows how weak you were and short sighted in the long run following true union values. If only you and your colleagues had remained Neutral and not interfered in a legal dispute things could have been different. Fast forward to 2014 and you can see a very divided workforce where FC and CC don't generally mix silent bus rides to the hotel solo dining being just a few examples. The damage to CRM has been ruined for a generation luckily we have ex bmi pilots who know the wrongs of the past and freely admit they are paying the consequences. Never will you receive any sympathy with regards to your conditions in the future I can tell you with every force draft that takes place a big smile appears on the faces of cabin crew sometimes unfortunately it's an ex bmi FC so some sympathy can be extended.

[Flow Wedge]

Wotersidew@nker

You are so far removed from reality, you troll status shines brilliantly, as ever. I admire your fervour for the irrelevant.

I'll give folk the truth, the bus rides have been raucous, the dining convivial and 'sporty', the extra-curricular as good as ever. Watersid . . . please let it go. This is 2014 and the 'red pens in the shirt pocket mob' are the ones who generally eat out of their Delseys- their blinkered bitterness gnawing through their souls.

Trust me. Please trust me. Life is good.

[SinBin]

+1 wedge! Watersidewonker claims not to troll but he continues. The midland thing is a fantasy which he and his poisoned blood holds dear. There is no divide, which he speaks of, 20% 'volunteered', (I was employed elsewhere at the time before you start), 40% of the current shorthaul pilots didn't work for BA at the time. Keep pedalling your nonsense you sound like a barrel of laughs. Your union did a fantastic job by the way. How someone can stay bitter for 4 years + is beyond me! Grow up!

[wiggy]

I suspect this thread will rightly shortly be cropped to get it back on the straight and narrow but whilst WW comments remain on view and are being read by prospective applicants they can't remain unchallenged:

you can see a very divided workforce where FC and CC don't generally mix silent bus rides to the hotel solo dining being just a few examples

No, that's simply not an accurate portrayal of how most crews behave on the line, and before you ask I don't always fly with mixed fleet. It's probably wishful thinking on WWs part. Certainly if he/she genuinely works for BA and is experiencing the above then I'd draw my own conclusions about who is causing the division.

More generally I'd point out (again?) to prospective employees that the rate at which life, the universe and everything ;) is changing at BA is escalating ( downwards - can you do that? :sad:). Even so there's still a tendency to view BA T&Cs through rose tinted glasses. IMHO it's probably still a good "gig" for some and would be worth the move, particularly if you are living and working in some remote hell hole and just want to get the heck out of Dodge - but I wouldn't join BA just because, to paraphrase "it's BA, it must be better than where I am now", because you might be in for a shock...."frying pan and fire", "caveat emptor" and all that.

[SR71]

Anecdotally, the chief pilot was approached as to what he was going to do with the plummeting morale amongst his department. His response was to ask what relevance morale has for the bottom line. In short, he couldn't give a ****

The irony....

Did he go through the recruitment process?

:E

I doubt he's heard of Herb Kelleher.

:rolleyes:

[Deep and fast]

Falling morale equals falling safety. Happy peeps concentrate on the job more and loyalty is the best motivator. These ******* airline bosses has no idea sometimes!

Makes the guys loyal and they will follow you to the ends of the earth.

Ps, it's been a long day and I'm not feeling the love ))

[Fat Dog]

Some of the most recent drowned DEP's have been called up (last month or so) with a job offer for 'bus courses (non rated DEP's that is) starting in the next month or so. Anyone know any more?

[no sponsor]

I've heard recruitment isn't going to be for the Airbus now.

[BASHLH]

No Sponsor,

Where did you hear that info... I'd be surprised if BA DEP onto LH as there are many unfrozen SH pilots. Plus I think this would be the final straw for a very miffed SH group, many of whom have very strong aspirations to go LH ASAP. I'm not sure in the current climate that this would go down too well with many of my fellow colleagues....

[wiggy]

BASHLH

Agreed, any attempt to recruit externally onto a Long Haul fleet at the moment would lead to, errrr, "problems":rolleyes:

[squawkident.]

If not airbus, how about 737 instead??

[Fat Dog]

No, the recently called up ex-drowned DEP's (the ones I know anyway) are going on the bus.

[Juan Tugoh]

No one will be going to the 737, it is a dying, contracting fleet with people posted out every month. BA are managing its decline - there will be no additional training to this fleet. It's the all electric death jet for everyone!

[Wirbelsturm]

BA want to standardise the SH fleet to Airbus. As stated above most of the aging 737 fleet is already on its way to Victorville.

The current meat grinder that is SH is full of pilots wanting to make the move from SH to LH, an aspiration that is central to their giving continued support to the BACC during productivity changes that seem to be pointed squarely at SH. Any change to this aspiration attributed to DEP onto LH as has happened in the past would be met with a huge amount of resistance, so much so that I believe the BACC would have to block any such recruitment plans for the protection of its current members.

DEP onto the LH fleets will not happen for some considerable time, if ever IMHO. BA requires A380 pilots to have BA airbus experience, the 767 is winding down as is the 744, the 787 is becoming the most junior LH fleet with a massive queue of SH pilots waiting for it and the 777 fleet becomes more senior by the day as the 744 guys transfer across.

Whilst I think that DEP will be opened for non type rated pilots again they will all be going to the French Electric SH death jet either at Heathrow or at Gatwick under whatever rostering system exists at the time.

[Threethirty]

When does recruitment resume for the "death" jet for someone who flies a slightly bigger version?

[Wirbelsturm]

When does recruitment resume for the "death" jet for someone who flies a slightly bigger version?

That's the million $ question isn't it. I think the current mess with manning levels, 'bidline's broken' management mantra and system replacements etc. will have to be resolved before any thought is given to that as established manning levels will, obviously, be a prime driver in future recruitment.

[Threethirty]

Ok thanks, I'm hearing rumours that it may commence very soon though.

[kirungi1]

How about the current A320 recruitment drive?! Any news?

[binsleepen]

I am led to believe that some of those who have recently drowned in the pool have been offered 76 or 74 places. This at the same time as BA are directing some 76 guys to the bus. You couldn't make it up!!! There could be trouble ahead..

As the BA recruitment manager does occasionaly monitor this thread perhaps he would care to update one and all on what's going on. Pretty please......

[Kempus]

I fell out of the holdpool first week of Jan 2013. Non airbus rated and I've heard nothing.

Is there some kind of company criteria that you only could have drowned within the last year to be eligible for a call/email as the stuff you had then may have had only partially gone?

All I've heard from friends on various fleets is that bid line is getting the blame from management for being under under crewed and that the recent drive for bus pilots has fallen quite short for those with the right stuff.

[Callsign Kilo]

Drowned middle of last year. After the initial low period I accepted the fact that BA were adamant that the 18 months holding period was finite. The news today, although completely unconfirmed, is a bit annoying to say the least. Although i like to think the guys within pilot recruitment, who I was told had been pushing for our retention,have won a minor battle over the guys in HR. I accept this may merely be rumour, however considering the difficulties BA appear to be having with current crewing levels anything's possible. Plus there were around a dozen guys taken at the turn of the year who I presume had been drowned in the pool

[ManUtd1999]

BA want to standardise the SH fleet to Airbus.

Are pilot's still going to be based at either LHR or LGW? If you're looking for rostering efficiency, surely dual-basing is an attractive option now the fleet is standardised? It's already done on the 777 IIRC..

[Harry palmer]

Any possibility of opening the Non Rated recruitment in the near future?

[Fat Dog]

Callsign Kilo

I too drowned around a year ago. I promise you, this is not a rumour. One of our fellow drowned swimmers (non bus rated) is starting in October on the bus. 100% definite.

[Wirbelsturm]

Are pilot's still going to be based at either LHR or LGW?

By your question I assume you mean two seperate bases? I assume so, LGW operates different payscales, pay caps and rostering systems on the 737 which I believe will continue when the fleet has transitioned to Airbus. There was initially a dual basing system as the LHR airbus crews would often cover work at Gatwick however, as the Airbus fleet grows at LGW that will decline.

The 777 is a different story as the fleet is 'run' from LHR with LHR flight crew but LGWcabin crew as I don't believe there is enough work, aircraft or F/C willingness to operate LH under Gatwick rules/rostering to justify a Gatwick base per se.

As stated above that is my opinion, I'm sure anyone from the Airbus fleet could possibly correct or corroborate the above. :}

[no sponsor]

Didn't hear about the 744 or 767, but heard it was going to be for the 787. All due to training capacity and manning levels on SH.

[SkyRocket10]

Didn't hear about the 744 or 767, but heard it was going to be for the 787. All due to training capacity and manning levels on SH.


Good rumour, however it seems to have been confirmed that all recruitment will be onto the A320, and in all likelihood with a LGW base.
There may be some movement onto the 747, but it will be internal only.

[squeaker]

Is the LGW deal a hangover from the Dan Air operation?
Those old 737-400s are from that era I think.

[ETOPS]

Those old 737-400s are from that era I think.

No they are BA standard 734s from Heathrow - I used to fly them back in the 1990's :hmm:

[Juan Tugoh]

The LGW working arrangements and contracts originated in the Dan-Air take over but the equipment and those contracts etc now are very different. Essentially everyone at LGW is paid the same as their LHR counterparts, but with different, lower pay caps. Rostering is different there being no Bidline at LGW. IF the new rostering system adopted at LHR turns out to be Bid Trip then it is highly likely that this would also be brought into LGW, bringing the T&Cs at the two bases closer together, though the pay caps would still be lower at LGW.

As the change of fleets at LGW continues there willl be some "Schedule K" work at LGW - essentially LHR pilots operating at LGW but on constructed Bidline trips at LGW, this includes hotac at LGW as dual basing is not allowed. All 777 work at LGW is done by LHR based pilots under Bidline, there is no 777 base for pilots at LGW nor is there any intent for that to change.

[Al Murdoch]

I find the complexity baffling. Perhaps the military phrase "all of one Company" needs to be explored by BA Management. Unless of course they prefer "divide and conquer"?

[FANS]

For two bases 50 miles apart, you couldn't make it up. It is a legacy of Dan Air, but that's over 20 years ago.

Either way, it should be apparent to all that BA is moving into the 21st century, and it won't be for the benefit of flightcrew. Still one of the best places to be for many in the UK imho.

[Callsign Kilo]

I think it's THE best place to work in the UK but this is dependant upon your seniority number and the fleet you're on. You're not joining the BA of yesteryear any longer, nor will you ever.

[FANS]

I agree it's the best place in the UK, but you need to see a flying career as very different to 20 years ago with a different calibre of people.

[wiggy]

...I suspect you're right FANS, but prospective employees also now need to know that it's also now an airline where management cannot actually deliver pivotal elements of agreed pay deals......

[Airbus Unplugged]

This is the Pilot Share Plan that was much vaunted in 2009, even making it into the papers, which was to provide an executive reward which recognises the miracles we do everyday to save the reputation of this company in a tax efficient way. The sort of scheme that senior managers take for granted.

On Friday, IAG said that we're not worthy of such recognition and tore up the agreement. In just the same way that they're about to tear up the rest of our agreements on rostering and hotel accommodation and everything else we value.

Just so's you know what you're letting yourself in for.

[wiggy]

"the Pilot Share Plan that was much vaunted in 2009, even making it into the papers......"

For those that are perplexed as to what is being discussed:

BA pilots agree to pioneering 'shares-for-pay-cuts' deal to help struggling airline | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1193740/BA-pilots-agree-pioneering-shares-pay-cuts-deal-help-struggling-airline.html)

Seems several years down the road BA have been told by someone in IAG that the shares are not going to be made available...in other words BA management made a promise they couldn't keep. Cash may now be offered by way of compensation but details/amounts are yet to be confirmed:

Just so's you know what you're letting yourself in for.

Couldn't have put it better myself.....

[JB007]

with a different calibre of people.

Approaching my 26th year in UK airlines...totally agree with FANS!

[WHYEYEMAN]

Yes, young people these days. Tut tut tut. It was different in my day you know! Bloody first officers.......Yawn.

If you wanted multiple employee share schemes, you should have joined Easyjet!

[ManUtd1999]

Seems several years down the road BA have been told by someone in IAG that the shares are not going to be made available...in other words BA management made a promise they couldn't keep. Cash may now be offered by way of compensation but details/amounts are yet to be confirmed:

I certainly wouldn't be accepting any sort of compensation without a fight. By definition, this "profit sharing" scheme only applies when the airline is in a good financial position. Maybe if this agreement is dropped pilots can have a pay rise to make up for their side of the bargain?

[Bengerman]

It is a legacy of Dan Air, but that's over 20 years ago.


This is not the case.

In truth it is the legacy of Bob Ayling and a continuous loop of grey suited accountants who now run everything.

[kirungi1]

Invitation for more applicants, re-opened today! :ok:

Wonderful things happen at BA, don't they?

[Threethirty]

I just checked the DEP recruitment page, it says it's closed?

[Widebdy]

Makes sense for BA to reopen if Monarch is on its knees.

[wiggy]

Makes sense for BA to reopen if Monarch is on its knees.

BA don't think like that..and in any event AFAIK the recruitment for DEPs has not reopened.

[mark_eisner]

Hasn't it? (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/job_details.shtml?jobDetailsUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcareers.british airways.com%2Ffe%2Ftpl_ba01.asp%3Fnewms%3Djj%26id%3D59512%26 aid%3D14265)

[Jet Set Willie]

Still need a bus rating though :(

[wiggy]

mark e

Apologies, certainly wasn't showing when I looked a little while back...I'm either going to blame my browser or BA iM :E:E

[mark_eisner]

A few friends couldn't find it either, the DEP page links to an old First Officer opening so you need to go in to the job search and do it manually. I was signed up for alerts and got an email this morning.

[UpnDn]

Anyone know what the current starting salary is for DEP airbus? Do they still get £9 per hour flying pay as pilotjobsnetwork says, I understand the ex bmi guys didn't get this flying pay so is that now the norm for all joiners? Otherwise, how much does this work out annually?

Also, anyone know a realistic time to command?

[no sponsor]

So, not enough applicants last time around. Now only 200hrs on the Airbus required...

Perhaps the next round will recruit non typed individuals?

Anyway, interesting to see BA was not flooded with applicants.

[Tay Cough]

It used to be the case that guys and gals would flock in from RYR and EZ. There have even been a handful going back to EZ recently believe it or not!

The fact is that if you are close to a command at either of the above (or elsewhere for that matter), all of a sudden it isn't a cut and dried decision to head for BA anymore, especially as there is currently no direct entry onto longhaul. 34 pay points for new joiners (34 being the same as the old 24), the BARP pension (middle of the road compared to the competition, by all accounts) and a long time to either RHS longhaul or LHS (any) make it a less attractive proposition than it used to be.

You will do at least five years on shorthaul at LHR (do your research carefully as to what that actually means in terms of lifestyle. :=) before you are able to bid to move to longhaul RHS. Even then you need the seniority, which you may or may not have (research the demography). A shorthaul command will traditionally occur at some point after longhaul. Currently this is running at nearly fifteen years for a LGW command, slightly more for LHR (this does vary a little to be fair). Longhaul commands take significantly longer.

Welcome aboard but for Pete's sake do your research properly.

[Zippy Monster]

A few of my colleagues applied. They are all well-trained, highly-motivated, enthusiastic, knowledgeable and generally excellent all-round operators and thoroughly nice people. All with plenty of Airbus experience at a reputable airline. Not one of them got in this time around.

It does make you wonder what the recruitment team are looking for.

[wiggy]

Just to add to Tay Cough's excellent precis:

We are being made increasingly aware that the shots regarding T&Cs are being called in Madrid, not Harmondsworth......it is very difficult to see what life at BA will be like next year, let alone in 5 years time (IMHO especially in Short Haul)

As Tay said for Pete's sake do your research but be aware you are very much rolling the dice.

[eaglesnest1972]

Hi guys, i'll go straight to the point.

South european. 40yrs (i've been in the military for 18yrs)
EASA FATPL
A320/A330 both current
ICAO level 6
EASA class 1 with no restrictions

800hrs TT - 300+hrs on the A320

Currently employed by possibly the worst airline in the world and flying the 320 (transitioning to the 330).
Do i have any chance with BA?
I really don't understand what they're looking for.

Thanks in advance folks.

[mark_eisner]

You technically meet their requirements for the DEP recruitment closing on 2nd September as long as you have the right to work in the UK.

Your guess is as good as anyone else's on what they are actually looking for...

[eaglesnest1972]

Hi mate,

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, i hold an EU passport so i am entitled to live and work in UK too.
Honestly speaking my concern is about my age and my grand total flight time.

I applied, we'll see.

Good luck to everyone, wish you all the best.

[mark_eisner]

If you meet the criteria it will only then be about how well you can do in an HR-centric interview process. I don't have many more hours than you and neither have some friends who have recently joined BA.

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks mate,

Appreciate.

All the best:ok:

[MrHorgy]

A THREE DAY interview process? Really? I have to write an essay as well? What happened to being recruited on your ability to operate an aircraft?

[2whites2reds]

Just wondering when the rest of us ex hold poolers may get another go. Was bad enough to fall out in the first place, without being excluded from current recruitment due lack of airbus type rating ...

[A320.1B]

ex hold poolers did not need the airbus rating. The first set of interviews a few months back were all from the hold pool.. only a few were airbus rated the rest were not.. the opening stated something like ex-hold poolers were to contact directly.. they also only did a 1 day assessment not the full 3 days..

[Threethirty]

It was my understanding that ex hold poolers were personally phoned up to attend the one day assessment, I don't think they had to apply. Does anyone know if this included people who were stuck in between round one and round two back in 2011/12?

[Callsign Kilo]

I can testify that not all ex poolers were called. I believe a small number were offered a 320 position straight out. Not sure how this fits with others - reapplication, call, 1 day assessment, 3 day assessment?

[oscar2012]

Yeah, I can personally testify that not all ex hold poolers were contacted.

I was one of the last to get in in 2012 and therefore one of the last to drop out so when the Airbus recruitment was announced I, rather frustratingly, emailed the recruitment team as advertised on the application website.

I was trying to put some feelers out as I'm Boeing rated but wanted to update them on my flying hours, company I'm now working for, etc etc and see what the situation at their end was. I received an email straight back saying thanks for the email, however, as I didn't have a 320 rating I wasn't eligible and that they don't keep records on file(!?).

Was a bit of a kick in the teeth a few weeks later to hear through friends that several non-bus rated ex-poolers had been contacted.

[2whites2reds]

Oscar and CallsignKilo - I remember you guys (and others in our situation) like you I emailed and had no luck! Just wondering whether they re going to give us Boeing boys (and girls) a go again .... They are recruiting for airbus again (second round), just hoping we are next! :ugh:

[pile.it]

Hello,

Slightly random question but does anyone know if BA will be contacting current employers before stage 2 (16,17,18 September)? I'm not to keen on letting my current airline know I'm applying elsewhere just yet.

Thanks!

[eaglesnest1972]

I think many are having the same concern, myself included:cool:

Have you already been contacted by BA?

[pile.it]

No I haven't even applied yet. Still debating whether or not to, it's a great opportunity, but don't want to bite the hand that feeds me!

[no sponsor]

When I went through the process before, BA only obtain references once you pass selection and get the job offer. They have a team of people whose job is to perform referencing, including your employment checks. I know in other posts today, the process only starts once you get the offer. As people know, passing selection and getting the offer of employment (which is subject to references) can be a significant amount of time, so there's no point doing them until you get the job offer.

[Gordomac]

Nothing much changed then, in half a century of, so called, selection. In 1964, I applied for a Hamble cadetship, I was still at school and was called for "pre-assessment". BOAC/BEA copied the RAF format for Cranwell. You were permitted to go through the selection on the basis that if successful, entry would be dependent on obtaining the necessary educational qualifications. I was a secondary modern (11+ failure), Roman Catholic school, only just doing "0" levels. Off I went to Hamble with me Rail Warrant (yeah p2 fly................they paid for you to get there, accommodate you , feed you & make you feel ever so wanted). I failed part one of a three part selection process. The very basic aptitude , general like-ability tests. The letter from dear ole A H ABBOTT suggested I try for anlternative career. I went on to fly Viscount, trident (for BA mainline ex LHR) Bac 1-11, B737,757, 767 and A340, nost of the 22000 hrs so accrued, in command. Ooooops, mind you, remember the silly essay we had to write - ? "Why I Want To Be An Airline Pilot" ! I opened with :" Well, it is the only job where you get free transport from pub to pub ". Part One Interviewer with no sense of humour didn't find that funny but he was an ex BOAC Nav !

I fought non selection for two years. I asked if one could have a second go as I succeeded in bagging a good crop of "O" levels including, in one sitting, Maths (0) and two A levels. The two A levels were gained in one year (two year course) and in which I had no "0" level background (Economics & GP Law). Nah, sorry, said AH Abbott "We do not permit second attempts, try BUA " !!

I took up the case with BEA who passed me on to BOAC who stated that second attempts WERE permitted and, indeed, many successful applicants had gained entry at the second attempt. AH Abbott reluctantly accepted my second application and invited me back to Hamble. Oh, glorious days as Thunderclapnewman were number one in the charts.

Did all of part one, asked to stay over night (obviously passed) and did that psycho test (500 questions- no time limit) and then faced nasty grilling by the Head of Selection. Yes, dear readers, of course, ex BOAC Nav . Went home expecting to be invited for part three which was 10 free flying hours in a chipmunk. BUT, failed ! Told I didn't possess, "in sufficient strength, ALL of the qualities looked for in a BOAC/BEA ...........................wait for it............CAPTAIN ! Blimey, only wanted to be a Second Officer on VC10 & go from pub to pub !

My point in all this is that BA have lurched from one selection procedure to another. From fully sponsored cadet training to p2 fly. From hold pools (what the hell is that - ? ). Looks like HR has no idea.

Oh, just learned that a mate of mine, years ago when BA were not recruiting, got into BA mainline (737), got a command within 18 months and has been a Training Capt for the last ten years ! WTF !.......................Oh, am I being silly, - ? Right place, right time, member of the favoured Lodge ? One trouser leg half way up, the other down, VERY strange hand-shake......................noooooo, noooooo, noooooo !

All going in the book....................................."Why I want to be an Airline Pilot "............................. !

Good luck to all DEP applicants. Right place, right time, Daddy already on Concorde............Oh, and if your first name really is Nigel.........Yur in !

[JW411]

And that is exactly it. I do not know how many times I have said on pprune that you can do every bit of preparation that is known to man but, in the final analysis, it is all about who was there when the phone rang.

[kirungi1]

...when luck meets opportunity ;)

[Paolo]

lovely post, Gordomac!

[Locked door]

Those reading this thread for genuine hints and tips, I hope you can filter the good stuff from the bitter musings (whatever their motivations).

Remember not everyone can be successful, there is an element of competitiveness in it and BA are looking for so much more than just 'driver airframe'. You will need to be technically competent but the non technical stuff is just as important. You are being recruited as a 'Captain of the future' where full role reversal happens from day one of your career.

There are some genuine tough luck stories out there, the recruiting procedure can't be completely foolproof, after all fools are so inventive! However the correct preparation seasoned with a sprinkling of luck will give you the best chance.

Good luck all.

ps. All the above is just my personal opinion.

[Megaton]

Locked Door has hit the nail on the head. When applying for BA, your ATPL and experience proves you are capable of driving. What the recruiters want to know is if you more about you than simply the ability to fly an aircraft. After all, if successful, BA will train you, at great expense, to operate their aircraft the BA Way (for better or worse).

As for fools are so inventive!....well, prior peparation preventing pi55 poor performance worked for me.

[Jet Set Willie]

British Airways - Job Details (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/job_details.shtml?jobDetailsUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcareers.british airways.com%2Ffe%2Ftpl_ba01.asp%3Fnewms%3Djj%26id%3D59548%26 aid%3D14265)

The door has just opened a little bit more for some as well!!!!;)

[time2leave]

Unless you had to leave at your exit date to enter the Hold Pool and cannot now apply as you are no longer serving because you left to enter the Hold Pool

[wiggy]

Nothing much changed then, in half a century of, so called, selection. In 1964,

Meanwhile......For the benefit of younger readers a bit of context: In 1964 I was a spotter (who wasn't yet old enough to have spots) at the airport formerly known as Ringway. BOAC were flying the likes of Viscounts and BOAC had 707's, ( I think, I must check my spotters logs).

Since then I've been through one of the iterations of the BA selection process, served over a quarter of a century in BA, and survived routine checks, conversion and command upgrades and am now past the former compulsory retirement age of 55. Like the vast vast majority of my colleagues in BA I have never been in a lodge, indulged in funny handshakes or gone around with a trouser leg rolled up (well, not when sober). As far as I'm aware not being "in the club" hasn't done any lasting harm.

In other words whilst some of the stories about BA selection process "back in the day" are interesting, they are no resemblance to the modern HR driven, computer scored, pier reviewed sausage machine.

[wiggy]

Nothing much changed then, in half a century of, so called, selection. In 1964,

Meanwhile, and if I may, a bit of balance, and for the benefit of younger readers a bit of context: In 1964 I was a spotter (who wasn't yet old enough to have spots) at the airport formerly known as Ringway. BEA were flying the likes of Viscounts and BOAC had 707's, ( I think, I must check my spotters logs).

Since then I've been through one of the iterations of the BA selection process, served over a quarter of a century in BA, and survived routine checks, conversion and command upgrades and am now past the former compulsory retirement age of 55. Like the vast vast majority of my colleagues in BA I have never been in a lodge, indulged in funny handshakes or gone around with a trouser leg rolled up (well, not when sober). As far as I'm aware not being "in the club" hasn't done any lasting harm.

In other words whilst some of the stories about BA selection process "back in the day" are interesting, and if as described a downright disgrace, they bare no resemblance to the modern HR driven, computer scored, peer reviewed sausage machine.