BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[OBK!]

If you are invited for assessment but live outside of UK, does anyone know if BA will provide accomodation at Heathrow and flight tickets to/from for all three different assessment stages?

Why don't you ring them and ask? Remember to remind them of your name when doing so!

[midnight cruiser]

You laugh ... but they used to in the meadowbank days; flights, nice room at the Edwardian and meals too.

[RexBanner]

Ah the good old days.

[JW411]

That would be when the applicants could still spell accommodation.

[Twiglet1]

Glider
Best ask those questions when your a BA Nigel not before.
Year 2016 - want want want

[Buter]

VJW Buter it also rounds up to 10 million hours - why stop at 0.1 hours.

Don't call me out, dumbass, you're the one trying to be clever.

Cheers

Buter

[ChaseIt]

If you are invited for assessment but live outside of UK, does anyone know if BA will provide accomodation at Heathrow and flight tickets to/from for all three different assessment stages?
Fat chance! I recently flew from Sydney, arrived 1 hour before the interview only to return 7 hours later back to Aus, all because I couldnt get leave and had no time for other assessment slots. Not single mention of any cash handouts, don't blame them either. If you want it you will pay for the travel I know I did!

[RexBanner]

Heathrow09L, a personal attack on someone who attended an interview within a timeframe that he clearly stated would not have been of his choosing?

Plus you've chosen to extrapolate and generalise his entire professional attitude to rest based on that one posting? Wow. It seems anonymity really does bring out the worst in some people, let's hope it's the worst anyway or I hope to never have to fly with you.

Was that post really necessary?

[ChaseIt]

Heathrow09L I slept all the way in business with some good sleeping tablets and as mentioned had no other option.

Rexbanner I appreciate your understanding, you sound like a skipper i would enjoy doing a trip with unlike someone else :ok:

[wiggy]

Well I'd put it this way - if ChaseIt passes the interview having arrived early for "report" following a questionable night's sleep I reckon he/she is ideal Long Haul material.... :E

Good Luck :ok:

[bowly]

I can call you or anyone I want 'out' if I so wish

Yes, you can, but it helps if you're right. Which you weren't.

I thought Buter was quite witty and you've chucked your teddies out. As you so eloquently put it......'deal with it'.

[spyce]

I've send you a PM jimboy473. if you have time to have a look at it. :)


Thanks

[spyce]

Hello all,


For the math exercises do you have a website or a link with examples?


Does they ask questions with "trains" crossing each others,.... or A take x time and B x times,...?


Do you have graph interpretations questions?


Last one :) the day 1 is: - 1 verbal test ?
- 1 math test
- 2 computers test

[Tiotes massive head]

Evening.

Has the format changed from a few years ago, as in day one is only the numerical, verbal and video game tests?

The email with the invitation only seems to mention the tests, however on the website it lists the whole lot.

Thanks and good luck!

Tiote

[wiggy]

Just a Heads Up

I know most/all reading this thread will apply to BA regardless of the rostering system and structure of pay but it might be worth knowing there's a vote coming up which could mean big changes to "Bidline" (as in you stop Bidding for Lines...) and monthly pay may go back to being more varaiable.

[Afrza]

Apparently BA will be re-opening A320 DEP recruitment tomorrow (Tuesday 2nd) with a small chance it might open early later today..

Good luck everyone!

[student88]

I have been told that BA will re-open A320 DEP recruitment this week.

[Gnat1809]

Its already open:
BA Careers - Direct Entry Pilots (http://www.britishairways.com/careers/directentrypilots.shtml)

[Practical]

Just a Heads Up

I know most/all reading this thread will apply to BA regardless of the rostering system and structure of pay but it might be worth knowing there's a vote coming up which could mean big changes to "Bidline" (as in you stop Bidding for Lines...) and monthly pay may go back to being more varaiable.

Wiggy,

As someone who literally just handed his notice in and will be a long haul commuter (albeit with a short commute) can you shed any more light on this?

[GS-Alpha]

Two pay deal options have been presented by the company, one of which is being reccommended by BALPA and does away with bidline. I've never known a vote go against BALPA's recommendation.

[Cliff Secord]

What would be the benefit to the pilot group if bidline was abolished? Given the ability to choose your roster it must be a hell of a benefit in kind to sacrifice that!?

[Jwscud]

Indeed, as another who was shown bidline rosters as part of recruitment, it would be nice to know what is being suggested in place of it and how that is likely to affect those at the bottom of the list?

[Wireless]

Definitely. Anyone working notice would want to know some details behind this. Big decisions made on the info at the time.

[Juan Tugoh]

What would be the benefit to the pilot group if bidline was abolished? Given the ability to choose your roster it must be a hell of a benefit in kind to sacrifice that!?

You would think so, but you would be wrong, Bidline is to be sold for a few trinkets. Stockholm syndrome has taken the BACC under their current leadership and they have assisted BA in allowing Bidline to be destroyed. Now they are asking us to vote for a system that they decided wasn't good enough two years ago. It's the old politician's trick of repeating an election till you get the right answer.

[99jolegg]

So does the ability to preference trips/days off just disappear if this vote goes through?

[Cliff Secord]

But surely something is being put to counter the loss? What's to be gained? I cant see how a union can recommend a deal that's that negative, even more so why on earth intelligent people would agree to vote for it. Especially in times of strong recruitment and Hugh financial yields.

[wiggy]

Cliff, There are a few things being thrown into the mix at the moment, such as a profit share/bonus scheme, that might make it a win and might make the changes worth voting for if you are willing to speculate.....

The two biggies that have got tongues wagging is firstly a proposal to move from Bidline in it's current iteration to a system known as JSS, which I believe our colleagues at United are using. I think the big big difference is that you'll be bidding for preferences on a seniority basis, e.g days off, preferred destinations, rather than bidding for predefined lines (that the company may then alter under the present rules). We are only just getting more info from the reps, maybe one of the smarter guys can fill in massive gaps in my knowledge.

Secondly the other big concern is that there is a proposal that we will get rid of the fixed "flying pay allowance" and revert to some form of hourly (flying hour/duty hour pay.), which by definition will vary from month to month depending on duties, sickness. BA BALPA fought a long battle to get as much pay as possible fixed, so to me a a bit of a strange step and most definitely a massive U turn, though I guess it might make sense to some financial whizz kids who look at the spreadsheets and reckon they'll gain somewhere else in the deal....personally I'm not convinced. Those negotiating with lenders for mortgages and/or loans are saying the drop in the fixed element in the pay could them cause big problems. I think for many it's simply a financial risk they can't take and I feel this issue alone is a deal breaker for a lot of the junior pilots- they need the fixed allowance. Then again I'm sure others here have more info and perhaps a different POV.

It is all being debated now, there will then follow a vote on whether to change or stick with something approximating to the current system.

[FlyVeryHigh-]

Anyone have any idea on the other "Pilot recruitment news" to be announced this week after the A320 DEP was announced?

[hunterboy]

Whichever system comes in, BA have managed to bolt an optimizer to the back of it, so that 99.5% of the work will be covered to the detriment of everybody's preferences/awarded line. Don't be coming in thinking your roster will be set in stone. That won't be until around -8 days to the start of the month I believe. Sadly, those new joiners will realise the BA job is rapidly going the way of Emirates. Reading the Emirates threads just reminds me of what is coming our way....

[Cliff Secord]

Hunter boy, if it's heading to become like emirates then why on earth would anyone vote to change it? Do the union have to agree to a change either way or is it optional to keep as you are?

In my humble experience if you're onto a good screw and a company offers a variation or alternative, it's always for the workers detriment, no matter how glitzy it is presented

[Hikmah]

Changing the flight pay to variable from fixed looks like a pay cut. That is a concern to me considering the strong financial performance of BA - that they are still looking to reduce Pilots pay.

The idea of a bonus or profit share to offset the loss in fixed flight pay may sound lucrative but it's not guaranteed income.

I'm not a BA pilot, just an interested person in this new development.

[wiggy]

Hunter boy, if it's heading to become like emirates then why on earth would anyone vote to change it? Do the union have to agree to a change either way .....

Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. 3 year pay deal, small very much single digit %s, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. Same pay deal as option A, but revert to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)

[Practical]

Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. General pay rise, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. General pay rise, Change back to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)

Thanks Wiggy all very interesting and disappointing at the same time.
I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.

[hunterboy]

BALPA, ie , us have agreed to an optimizer with BL17 and JSS. This means that the robustness of being awarded a line that reaches CAP that used to mean you were fireproof has long gone. There have been endless debates about why that is and who is to blame. All pointless. The important thing is what will happen in the future. Expect monthly flying hours of 85-90 hours with EASA limits in the near future and you won't be far wrong.

[RexBanner]

In that case, what will you be doing with your two months off in November and December then, Hunterboy?

[wiggy]

Practical

I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.

I think it is always down to the company wanting a bit more, which is leading to a managed decline - something prospective joiners need to be aware of.

The lack of a "no change" option post negotiations has become fairly standard. I think many on the BACC are still scarred by the Open Skies episode ( having heard what went on at a personal level I think that is quite understandable), they saw what went on around the Cabin crew dispute, and have decided any move towards IA is best avoided. Therefore following any negotiations we tend to see a couple of options being offered up, one of which is usually recommended by the BACC. In the heated debate that then follows elsewhere we then normally get told that not voting for the BACC's recommended option will result in them (or many of them) resigning.

That's my read of it and all IMVHO of course.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Neither option looks especially attractive to me. At a time when the industry is supposedly on the up, why are we accepting this continuing downward trajectory? Have BALPA become a glossy magazine subscription?

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay. For those not senior enough to benefit from JSS while receiving unpredictable pay derived from a roster that published a couple weeks earlier than the current system. What's in it for those of us lower down the seniority list? Or does this just benefit those at the top?

Perhaps it's time to consider other options to the sacred cow that is Bidline. Fixed pattern rosters have worked very well in previous operators and continues to serve those at FR and EZY very well. Perhaps its something worth looking at for us.... (he says while running for cover)

With a mortgage and a young family to pay for, my instincts tell me that the current offer is a big move in the wrong direction.

[Practical]

Thanks for the info Wiggy, much appreciated.
As a new joiner nothing I can do about it, however I have to agree that it seems a very big move in the wrong direction during a boom period. I dread to think what they will pull when times turn bad :-(
Bidline, even as junior trash, was a big selling point for me, I can only hope that the replacement allows for the flexibility that you guys appear to have enjoyed regarding swapping, bidding for days off etc. Time will tell.

[hunterboy]

I think the fact that the industry is on the up doesn't apply to the employees. In fact , the two are probably inversely related, like most large companies now.

[Juan Tugoh]

A lot of the BACC resigning would not be a bad thing, the current lot are too close to the company and do not listen to their electorate, preferring to tell us that they know best and we should leave things to them, as they have our best interests at heart. That they have overseen the destruction of one of the most coveted rostering systems in the airline says a lot. Still, if you are a long distance commuter selling what is left of it for a few back to backs is probably quite desirable.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Possibly, but when the Industry is on the down, it definitely applies to employees. The employers make sure it does!

Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.

Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.

Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.

Cheers

2W2R

[back to Boeing]

I think what has hamstrung the current BACC is they saw what happened to the cabin crew in their dispute. End result is BASSA really aren't at the negotiating table anymore. I don't for one second think the new management would act any different if Balpa did the same. Sr. Cruz just needs an excuse to bring across some of his more interesting ideas from Vueling.

[hunterboy]

I wouldn't go as far as blaming the union, rather the lack of unity among the pilot workforce. Different pension schemes, pay scales and differing senses of entitlement mean that one size doesn't fit all. It is very difficult for BALPA to please more than about 30% of the workforce at any one time.

[wiggy]

2 Whites 2 Reds

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay

FWIW that is also the way I see it.

[Flap62]

Wiggy,

I think that senior pilots are also disadvantaged under option B. The company state that it wouldn't allow a pilot to get something like Cpt Cpt Lax on a line. If my current seniority would allow me to get that then the proposed changes are a degredation in conditions. So junior and senior suffer. Who wins? Why the company of course.

This BACC have overseen a massive degredation in our terms and conditions. The holy grail of bidline has gone and we've received nothing in return. If they didn't see that allowing new entrants onto a new pension and payscale would lead to the demolition of bargaining power due to split interests then they are fools. Everyone else saw it and told them but, as usual, we were just short sighted whereas they had the "big picture" and knew what was best for us. Muppets.

[lfrk]

Hi guys,
Quick one , probably mentionned before.
What are the best books to get prepare for the computer, comprehension, math...tests.
Thanks

[TheGliderPilot]

What is the salary for a BA Longhaul DEP?

[GS-Alpha]

Flap62

Everyone else might have seen it and told them, but there have been votes on each of the changes you mention. If people want to continue to blindly follow their reps and vote in the direction BALPA recommend, then there is actually very little democratic process and the BALPA reps might as well just be a team of BA selected pilot negotiators. We need a team of professional negotiators, not pilots who've been on the odd course, and we need a union that is not scared of its own shadow. In my opinion, pilots are in BALPA for a few different reasons, but top of the list are laziness (they can't be bothered looking at proposals properly; choosing to simply vote whichever way the reps suggest), hope (they think things would be worse without a union and hope that one day it will grow a pair), and insurance (they think BALPA will protect them legally if they ever have an incident/accident, or if they have some other problem at work. They are wrong though. If BALPA chooses to protect you - you didn't need protecting in the first place.)

[hunterboy]

GS-Alpha has got it about right....in fact BALPA will only support you legally if there is a >50% chance of winning your case. I wonder how many members appreciate that......

[Flap62]

GS Alpha and hunter boy,

Agree with you both 100%.

It is pretty difficult when the union present you with two choices, neither of which is palatable and both of which are acceptable to the management. A non of the above option on the ballot paper might be a winner. Oh, and you get to pay 1% of your salary for being stiffed by your union.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Flap 62

While this may affect senior people too, I would argue that the impact isn't quite the same. But you're quite right when you say that, in the end, the company wins. Which is why I'll go back to my original question, why are we accepting this at a time when things are on the up??? Surely we should be adding value to our contracts, not making huge sacrifices to the detriment of all concerned.

The problem is, those further down the list are the lower earners in the company so to remove £7-8k of guaranteed annual income represents approximately a 12% pay cut in year 1. When paying a mortgage and raising a family in the South, that's a really big deal.

I'm staggered that BALPA are recommending I accept a 12% pay cut from my fixed income to accept a Variable pay arrangement in return! My monthly subs were taken on Wednesday and I'm wondering what on earth I'm paying for.

[Flap62]

2W2R,

I agree that (as usual) it is those further down the food chain who will suffer proportionately more. How can it be that we were persuaded a few years ago that moving onto a monthly fixed payment was better for us and the way ahead? Remember BALPA telling us that they had fought hard to get the best deal (after embarrassingly having to backtrack after initially high-handedly imposing a solution on us!)? so what has changed in the last few years that they are now recommending a 180 degree turn?
We have probably taken something near a 15% cut in the last 15 years and yet in times of near record profits BALPA tell us that the proposed 3 year deal will hopefully give us real world increases in at least one of the years!
Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.

[Jwscud]

So is there any more clarity on what this new roster system is going to deliver?

All bidding for destinations and days off, so if you're junior you will still get the equivalent of a blind line? Can you prioritise days off over destinations? Will trip swapping still be available?

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.

Yep, I may well do the same.

[wiggy]

So is there any more clarity on what this new roster system is going to deliver?

Not really. There's lots of verbiage about "preferences", and "bid groups", I'm fairly middling on my status list and would certainly like to see concrete examples of how one of my bids would be processed by "JSS" before coming to any conclusions. If anyone here has actually worked under JSS I'd be interested to hear their comments.

Overall it feels to me we're being asked to buy a new car without being allowed a test drive.

[GS-Alpha]

I'll tell what has changed in the last few years. We all worked particularly hard last year, but were paid the flying pay allowance based on the year before. This meant that BA saved a small fortune because we were effectively underpaid. The system means that this year, we should be paid for last year's hard work, but we'll be doing less flying this year because the pilot numbers are more realistic. BA have recognised that they can save by going back to the old system this year because they won't have to pay us the extras due to last year's enforced extra work. Also, sickness rates have increased since the new system of pay came into effect. What they don't recognise is that when people are forced to work harder, sickness is bound to increase. If you need a day off and you're going to get final assigned if you bid for that day off and then have the spotlight on you if you go sick for the trip, then most 'humans' would actively bid to work on the day they need off, with the knowledge that they can go sick without the spotlight on them. As a result, many people have stopped bidding for the days off they need - using sickness to achieve it instead. This is a problem the company would of course like to sort out, but it has nothing to do with whether people are paid £9 an hour flying rate or whether it's a fixed monthly payment.

[GS-Alpha]

In all honesty, even back during the last vote, I recognised that both new rostering systems are identical in all respects, except for how much they will cost BA. The currently planned system will have optimisation which if BA gets its act together, will produce precisely the same rosters as the new proposed system. The only advantage with sticking with the current plan is that we all know they will cut corners with their software to save a penny, which will of course cost a pound in inefficiencies which would work in our favour.

I've personally spent very little time worrying about the new systems - I've hardly even read what little literature we've been given. The one BALPA has recommended is coming, and I'll learn how to use it when it arrives.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

GS Alpha. I agree 100% with your mindset. How long will it take before the membership realise that 'the Emperor is stark bollock naked!'?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Slightly worrying reading, given that I start in 10 days...

Will the PBS system get rid of the CAP system and considerably limit the ability to swap? Will it get rid of overtime?

I've spent the last few years on 5/4/5/3 and it's not ideal either. The days off never seem to fall when I need them. The ability to build CAP credit and swap was a factor in my decision to de-orange. Hope it's not all going away...

[GS-Alpha]

The CAP system is still going to exist in some format or other because part of the deal is a change to annual CAP. Swapping is the main problem. I think a theoretical ability to swap will still exist, however when everyone is working efficiently with minimum days off inbetween trips, it will be very difficult to organise swapping of trips in order to obtain different days off to the ones you have been rostered.

[Max Angle]

we then normally get told that not voting for the BACC's recommended option will result in them (or many of them) resigning.Worth re-joining for I would say, where do I sign-up?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks GS-ALPHA. Am I correct in guessing that ability to swap under the new system will be more reduced for SH than LH? Never done LH before, so might have guessed completely wrong.

[wiggy]

Permafrost,

It's early days for EASA FTLs in Longhaul but I think even under Bidline swapping is becoming more difficult. Unless you are swapping two trips which cover the same days you're now quite likely to fall foul of the rules concerning post rotation rest and/or pre duty acclimatisation rules. Also legit combinations for Longhaul back to backs at base are much more limited. I can say with some degree of certainty ;) that there are swaps in Longhaul that would have been legal in January but are now being refused due FTLs..

In short it looks like under either Bidline or JSS whilst you might be able to swap to get to a preferred destination, it's going to be difficult to swap to get preferred days off.

[FlyingTinCans]

Does anyone know how this 'JSS' is going to function?

My previous employers used preferential based system and it effectively allowed the top 10% of each rank to write there own roster while the other 90% got rosters that contained anything from 1 or 2 granted requests to absolute zero as it was based solely on seniority - if this is what BA are asking you to start using I would do everything you can to make sure it doesn't get implemented, even if they 'rotate' seniority it doesn't work ask the EK guys, the system is awful. BA has always been 'less money more lifestyle' it could turn into less money less lifestyle.

Not all preferential based systems operate to that extreme but has BA shown anyone examples of what the rosters would look like? If the bidding will be done entirely on seniority or if it would operate more like the leave system and be done using 'points/credits'? i.e I really want my daughters birthday off so use all my 100 points to bid for that day off, if no one senior to you uses the same amount of points/credits you get that day but with no more points to use you can't bid for anything else.

On a separate note how many long haul trips are being rostered under EASA? Normal 4-5 or have they squeezed in 5-6?

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Thanks Wiggy. My timing, as usual, is exquisite!

[RexBanner]

FlyingTinCans my understanding of the impact of EASA on long haul means that they can't "squeeze in" more work as the regulations are far more restrictive on doing things like back to back trips. The impact of EASA has left BA with the requirement for more pilots on Long Haul to cover the work (hence the current recruitment) not less.

[ManUtd1999]

What's the difference between this new JSS and the Carmen (preference based) system that LGW use? Is that being replaced aswell?

The general consensus on Carmen is it's actually a bit better for juniors as you can all-but-guarantee yourself one block of days off a month by making it your sole preference (at the expense of a random mix for the rest of that month)

[A340Yumyum]

On another note, those going through the BA selection will be assessed on the 747-400 sim from Apr.

[wiggy]

What's the difference between this new JSS and the Carmen

Can't comment on Carmen, all I know is it is proposed we adopt a bespoke :rolleyes: version of this:


http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/commercial/PreferentialBidding20101130eBrochure.pdf

I believe some have been quite impressed having "attended" Webinars on the subject given by BALPA, and some of the more junior are singing it's praises, but my eyes were drawn to this in the brochure:



The optimizer keeps track of multiple,
equally good schedules for each crew
member and it always chooses the one
that even the junior crew member will
have the maximum benefit from, as long
as it does not affect the satisfaction of
a more senior crew member

[lfrk]

Hi guys!
I am applying to BA.
I have a little issue with the 3 essais to write down at the application stage.
Is there any model showing exactly what HR want to read?
English is not my 1st language, I think I am doing well with it but writing is not the best for me.
You can think I am lazy! I have tried to write the essais myself but the result doesn't sound great!����
Thanks for you help!

[Flap 80]

HR would be interested to read about the history of Caen airfield 1939-2016:ugh:

[nebby]

I think HR might want to read an essai which has been through spell check! :ok:

[lfrk]

That's the problem....it would be more than 600 words!

[P0tt3r]

Can't comment on Carmen, all I know is it is proposed we adopt a bespoke :rolleyes: version of this:


http://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/commercial/PreferentialBidding20101130eBrochure.pdf

I believe some have been quite impressed having "attended" Webinars on the subject given by BALPA, and some of the more junior are singing it's praises, but my eyes were drawn to this in the brochure:


Thanks for that. An interesting read for a new joiner.
My immediate concern is being able to have some control over where days off fall, rather than individual trips (though I'm sure I'd develop a preference for east/west, trip length etc). As you will no longer be bidding for a line, do you think you will be able to bid for days off as well as trips? My understanding of the existing and proposed systems is fairly basic.

[Chief Brody]

LFRK .....

Here are my essay answers from nearly 10 years ago. Obviously the subject matter is a little dated now but it worked for me.

Don't fret over English not being your first language, I'm confident the recruitment team will take this into account. Good luck.

CB

--------

1) Why would you like to join BA as a pilot and how can you contribute

As a member of the travelling public whenever I think of British Airways, excellent customer service and the very highest of safety standards always come to mind. That said, as a pilot I recognise that these are consistently achieved because of the world class training crews receive at BA.


Believing sincerely in the above values and fully understanding how important training is, I feel I could reach my fullest potential were I given the opportunity to work for British Airways. My contribution would be to represent all that the company stands for - safety, quality, efficiency, loyalty - demonstrating the highest professional standards, each day, every day.


2) Give an example in your current role of when you have made an important decision. Consider the sources of information, how you prioritised and the final outcome.


Our duty involved two round trips to Manchester from Southampton. There was widespread fog and our allocated aircraft had no automatic pressurisation as well as a permanent fuselage door warning (defects were MEL acceptable). In manual pressurisation mode the workload is extremely high especially on routes where the cruise phase accounts for a small percentage of the flight time. This particular duty also involved crossing some of the busiest airspace in the world - four times, all with bad weather and the doors warning constantly on our minds -it is fair to say that I was feeling uncomfortable about the developing situation. Given all the information available as well as the safe conduct of the flight being our main priority I expressed to the captain that I would be much happier were the company to re-file us as FL80 - allowing us to fly unpressurised and allowing both of out attentions to concentrate on spacial awareness, ATC compliance and gathering MET information en-route. I thought conveying this to the captain was an important decision - a line of thought he too had been thinking along and ultimately flying at FL80 is what we did.


3) Give an eample of when you have been involved in a major change in the work environment. How did you adapt to this and what did you learn from it.


The integrating of Connect into Flybe was a major change in the work environment for all employees. For a while afterwards there were occasions when the atmosphere in the joint crewrooms became quite sour as hardliners from both sides made their respective thoughts known. As a very junior first officer I had not experienced a merger/takeover before and the subsequent period while things settled. In terms of how I adapted the truth was I had not been with Flybe very long when it all happened and was still in an adaptive frame of mind anyway, this was just one more thing to get use to. I knew the situation would calm down and as somebody who via my staff number could be recognised instantly as 'original Flybe' I made a point of being as congenial as possible when interacting or rostered with new colleagues. There were of course occasions when people were curt and it is from these times that I learnt that some people take longer to come round than others, some never do and really all you can do is have patience and understanding and not take it too much to heart.

4) Outline the competition facing BA at present and how in the role of flight crew you can contribute to the overall success of the business.


Low cost carriers are a direct threat to any full service airline serving the same routes in economically uncertain times such as these. Relatively new companies like Oasis and to some extent Zoom are evidence that the LLC might no longer remain simply an intra continental competition phenomenon (like Ryanair) but rather one that starts to appear more and more on transcontinental routes. This coupled with the EU-US Open Skies Agreement means that some very competitive times lie ahead - exacerbated for all concerned by rising fuel costs. Flight crews need to be continually aware that with fuel being the biggest operating cost the aircraft must be flown at its most efficient at every phase of flight and must always work to depart on time keeping in-check those overheads that are directly under their span of control. Flight crew can also contribute by helping to instil and maintain motivation as well as a pro company attitude among the entire crew and as ambassadors of the company project the image of trustworthiness at all times.

[wiggy]

As you will no longer be bidding for a line, do you think you will be able to bid for days off as well as trips? My understanding of the existing and proposed systems is fairly basic.


TBH your understanding is probably as good as mine.

I suspect that if JSS is adopted it will be a case of keeping preferences simple and not trying to combine too much, especially whilst junior...I suspect asking for SIN trips only and being home Sat and Sun might not be the best tactic to employ initially....whereas bidding for "any trip, any day" might just work...:bored:

Like most things bidding wise I suspect you'll get what you want as long as somebody senior to you doesn't want it........and that ultimately the company will re-jig work and ignore preferences in order to cover the work........

[P0tt3r]

TBH your understanding is probably as good as mine.

I suspect that if JSS is adopted it will be a case of keeping preferences simple and not trying to combine too much, especially whilst junior

I anticipate being junior on my fleet for quite some time, and as such don't expect to have a huge amount of control over what I do. I was/am hoping to have a chance at influencing my days off though, and in the future, what I do when I do work.

I'm currently a longstanding balpa member at my employer, and likely to stay a member when I move (at least my subs will go down due pay cut), but BA balpa is very much on trial for me. I need to see them benefitting me, and working on my behalf. This feels like a backward step on the face of it.

[wiggy]

POtt3r

I anticipate being junior on my fleet for quite some time, and as such don't expect to have a huge amount of control over what I do. I was/am hoping to have a chance at influencing my days off though,

In the interest of managing expectations I'll be brutally honest and say that IMHO even if we stick with Bidline you'll struggle as a Blindline holder to do much influencing of days off, other than perhaps being able to swop after roster publication, if EASA regs allow it. It's been a standing joke for years that pre-ops ("rostering") put Blindline holders preferences forms unread straight into the bin. Might be unfair but it often appears that way.

If you're destined for the 744 they do at least have a seeded trip on their Blindline's so after Stage 1 publication you'll have a trip and associated days off on the line prior to the rest of the line build.... but you have to have the senority in the first place to get the Blindline that gives you the days off you want. The only other option is to bid for a reserve line - that has a block of fixed days off at the start that might be a "fit" with something you need to do...other than that :confused:

I have no idea whether there will be any real improvement in control of days off for the junior pilots if we go to JSS....

[P0tt3r]

Swaps were probably my main hope for controlling days off.
Maybe the new system will be more transparent, and give junior guys a slightly better shot at some form of preference. Who knows.

I'm going on the 380, so the 744 thing you mentioned wouldn't benefit me.

[Chief Brody]

Wiggy.

Re blindline pref forms going straight in the bin.

I needed to fill one in myself the other month and followed it up with a phone call to pre-ops. I did this to reinforce how important the day off I wanted was (Ellen's birthday). During the conversation I said something slightly disparaging re pref forms and how little sway they seem to have.

The lady on the end took the time to list my last 5 forms submitted (over the course of several years) and read the succinct notes on the screen next to each entry citing why I hadn't got my preference.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

It's been a standing joke for years that pre-ops ("rostering") put Blindline holders preferences forms unread straight into the bin. Might be unfair but it often appears that way.


I'd go along with that but then Feb was published and all 4 of my preferences were honoured. :eek: Buses all coming at once springs to mind.

OpenTime is a fantastic tool, a potential life saver when you're junior on Blind Lines.

[P0tt3r]

Is OpenTime a tool for swaps?

[Tay Cough]

It's actually called eMaestro but yes, it's a live trip swap/overtime system. There are some restrictions but broadly it's pretty good.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Yeah it's a very handy little feature that enables us to view uncovered work and either add it as overtime or swap existing work around. It's brilliant if you're on Blind Lines as it gives you some control over your roster. I use it every month.

Out of interest, does anybody know if JSS (if implemented) will retain this feature?

[Hotel Mode]

The 380 is a bit different as the vast majority of trips are 4-5 days with many large time zone changes. This makes blind line holders fairly inefficient so you hopefully won't work too hard.

If you're in the first batch you will rise up the list reasonably quickly as they have released some SFOs to the 320, which wasn't in the original plan. With no more aircraft (yet) planned the fleet has a lot of trainers and not much training come the end of the year.

[Hotel Mode]

Emaestro or whatever it gets called stays with either system.

[P0tt3r]

The 380 is a bit different as the vast majority of trips are 4-5 days with many large time zone changes. This makes blind line holders fairly inefficient so you hopefully won't work too hard.

If you're in the first batch you will rise up the list reasonably quickly as they have released some SFOs to the 320, which wasn't in the original plan. With no more aircraft (yet) planned the fleet has a lot of trainers and not much training come the end of the year.

I have a feeling I'm mid-batch. Certainly 1-2 courses before mine. Maybe more.
I've got a decent idea of what the fleet is like from a mate on it, but hadn't heard re SFO's going to the 320.

[pomme pilot]

Such a shame they are changing the lifestyle that really sold BA to my wife and I at the Middle East road shows.

Im destined to join a quieter fleet, and the move to variable flight pay is now quite a concern. How much difference in pay will this make to junior bods on quieter fleets such as the 380/787/767? Before the change to fixed flight pay, was there any pay protection for those on blind lines with only 1 or 2 trips? Is a reserve month now going to result to a month of eating pot noodles to pay the mortgage?

Thanks again for the info!!

[Hotel Mode]

You're going to get a shock if you think you'll be doing 1 or 2 trips a month on a blindline on whichever fleet! :eek:

Last time we had variable pay it was around £10 an hour, so even on 900hrs a year it could only be 9k before tax. The money is being kept, just redistributed, so in a normal month take home will increase but will go down in a quiet reserve month/leave/really quiet blind lines. There's no certainty at this stage it will be voted through anyway.

[hunterboy]

What will be a shock is the amount of money deducted in taxes/NI/pension for those coming in from the desert. Coupled with the £100 tank of petrol may have some newcomers heading back East after a couple of years.

[P0tt3r]

What will be a shock is the amount of money deducted in taxes/NI/pension for those coming in from the desert. Coupled with the £100 tank of petrol may have some newcomers heading back East after a couple of years.

I'm not coming from the desert, and will pay less tax than I currently pay, but I'd rather know what I'm taking home. I'd opt for fixed pay over variable pay every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I'd rather know what I'm taking home. I'd opt for fixed pay over variable pay every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Here Here!

Variable pay also has an impact when applying for a mortgage. Some banks take an average, some will ask to see your payslips for x number of months and take the lowest figure, some will just take a fraction of it.

Giving up the fixed flying pay is a big step in the wrong direction and will certainly affect those of us at the bottom of the pile IMHO. But hey ho, lets see what comes out in the wash when the votes have been cast.

[Dupre]

Hi All,

I am applying to BA, but haven't lived in the UK for 17 years! Hoping someone can shed a little light on what the norm is for a CV these days?

My current CV is a succinct 1 page, but I seem to recall having a 3 pager right out of high school in the UK.

Thanks for all your help!

Dupre.

Chief Brody - Thanks for posting those essay answers, gives me an aiming point for what to achieve in them!

[GS-Alpha]

So with what now appears like an inevitable 'self generated by the financial markets', global economic downturn, who thinks BA will actually continue to recruit hundreds of pilots this year? The share price is certainly being hammered!

[RexBanner]

The non rated guys in the pool without the LH requirements won't like you for pointing that one out, GS-Alpha! Right now though it remains to be seen, unless it filters through to the real economy then really it's all on paper. Current Oil prices, depending on hedging, give the airline a lot of leeway to entice passengers and don't forget that Oil is making the cost of living much cheaper for the consumer right now. All in all, I think it's going to take a lot more economic pain to scupper plans just yet.

[GS-Alpha]

In my experience, a BA/IAG share price fall of this magnitude has always resulted in a serious economic downturn a couple of months later.

[RexBanner]

What's the old disclaimer? Past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results ;-) who knows though, it's certainly possible.

[GS-Alpha]

Yes of course. Nothing is certain.

[no sponsor]

Things were a lot different last time wrt the price of oil. I don't see the current volatility on the markets affecting recruitment just yet. I am certain Asia will enter a recession but BAs exposure to the region is minimal. There are rumblings that the business has softened a bit, but nothing in the realms of what was experienced in 2008/9.

However, if you're keen to get into BA don't turn down a course in the hope a 'better' fleet will come along. A signed contract in your hand is what you need!

[JW411]

"A singed contract in your hand is what you need".

That would be the result of having a burning desire to join BA I presume?

[flyer101]

Hi. Can anyone who has recently done the day one give their experience of how long it took to hear back from BA on their assesment outcome?

[P0tt3r]

Hi. Can anyone who has recently done the day one give their experience of how long it took to hear back from BA on their assesment outcome?

2 days after (October). I think it varies though, and you can't read too much into it.

[spyce]

Could someone share good books and/or website for the numerical test on day one?


thanks :)

[giggitygiggity]

Does anyone know what the logbook requirements for stage one are? I kept a paper logbook until November last year and have now moved to a digital one (MCC). I was planning to bring in the paper one and just print out the MCC one. Does anyone know if that is acceptable? It would be silly to get it professionally bound when there is only going to be 10 pages in it.

Thanks

[Dupre]

Hi, would anyone be so kind as to post (PM also welcome!) typical roster patterns for their fleet? I know it can be highly variable (and changing witn EASA FTL), but I am just trying to get a feel for how many nights downroute, how many turnaround flights, and how many trips to the airport can be expected, and how this varies across each of the fleets.

Thanks!

[Fursty Ferret]

No one looked at mine...

[giggitygiggity]

Ferret, I assume you were replying to my logbook thing. Thanks for that, anyone else?

[Jwscud]

I think they photocopied the last page of mine, but don't remember if it was day 1 or 2.

[wiggy]

Dupre:

Hi, would anyone be so kind as to post (PM also welcome!) typical roster patterns for their fleet? I know it can be highly variable (and changing witn EASA FTL)

I'm in a rush this AM but if you get no other replies I'll try PM something Longhaul'ish later today....however TBH at the moment even us insiders have no idea how scheduling is going to work and roster shapes in the not too distant future. It all depends on the misleading entitled pay ballot, the result of which will amongst other things will determine which rostering system we will end up using (and also of course whether a large chunk of pay goes back to being a variable...just thought I'd mention that..again :E).

Regardless of whether we end up on the aforementioned JSS or "son of Bidline" I suspect for Long Haul you'll be looking at EASA compliant minimum required turnaround at base, which, depending on who you believe, may or may not include "back to backs" at base.....

[Juan Tugoh]

Also worth mentioning that EASA FTLs have massively reduced the likelihood of swapping trips now. So achieved rosters are much more like published rosters which is a huge change.

[RexBanner]

I am guessing we will still be subject to EASA once Britain pulls out of the EU?

[Stocious]

Also worth mentioning that EASA FTLs have massively reduced the likelihood of swapping trips now. So achieved rosters are much more like published rosters which is a huge change.

Short haul probably not affected as much as long haul though.

[wiggy]

Dupre, others...

Ah well, I was hoping for an IT wizz to do a cut and paste but failing that here's my effort: a couple of example 777 (P1) EASA compliant lines for March, as published. They are both pretty "full on" as they are just above CAP. FYI Not sure how "junior" they went in the Stage 1 bid process but BKK'/HKGs tend to be somewhat popular, and the long SYDs can also attract some more senior bidders. They should at least give a flavour of the roster pattern. Please forgive formatting.

Decode:

XXX = destination at end of FDP
- = GMT day off at base.
* = GMT day down route/en-route, so may contain a duty or part thereof...

Line 1

--EWRLHR*----BOM*LHR--JFKLHR*---BLR**LHR--HKG**LHR*

Line 2

-BAHBAHLHR*---SIN**SYD*SIN*LHR*-----BKK**LHR---DXB*LHR

notes for line 2

First trip is: LHR-BAH day one, BAH-DOH-BAH shuttle day two, BAH-LHR day 3/4

The final DXB*LHR is a "carry out", arriving LHR 1 Apr.

There are a handful of lines with 6 trips on them...(the low credit/flying hours, 3 day trips), but I thought publishing one of those would be bad for moral, unless you really like EWR, LOS, RUH etc......just think 3 day trip (e.g day flight out, nightstop, overnight flight home), 2 days off, 3 day trip, etc, you'll get the idea......

[Dupre]

Wow thanks for that, really much appreciated! It took me a couple of minutes to understand it, but got there in the end ☺

Anyone else with any different fleets?

[Calmcavok]

Less days off than I would have imagined. Are 15 or more days off possible or simply non-existant?

[wiggy]

Less days off than I would have imagined. Are 15 or more days off possible or simply non-existant?


Yikes........even at BA, even in Longhaul we're expected to come to work every now and then :uhoh:. To be fair some of this depends on whether you regard a late departure from LHR (e.g. to SIN,) as a day off, and also if you'd regard an oh dark thirty arrival at LHR as an effective day off (e.g. arrivals from LOS, NBO, SIN). If you are prepared to think that way you'll get 15 days "off" on a lot of lines. OTOH as a full timer it's very hard if not impossible to get 15 entire days off unless you've got leave or a Duty Free Week already embedded in the month (Now no doubt somebody will look at rosters and prove me wrong but I'm betting 15 complete non leave days clear of duty on a final final roster is rare).....

History lesson: Once upon a time, a time that ended a couple of years back, you could build up a "bank" of hours by working over the CAP for several months and then trade in those hours by bidding for a below CAP line ( the lower limit used to be CAP minus 15 hours)... so if you worked at it you could occasionally bid to get a "light" line with perhaps 15 days off in a month, and sit back safe in the knowledge the roster was safe ('ish). Nowadays the company are still happy for you to build a bank ( no..sh...sherlock), but if you try to discharge it and as a result get a big juicy gap on your line the company will probably find a trip to drop into it (it's called Final Assign/Roster Assign). EASA rules have made that a tad more difficult but BA have ways of making it work,

FWIW this is the exactly the sort of reason to beware of some of the ex-BA guys who go around saying how great
Bidline is:

" Wonderful system dear chap..bid high in winter my boy, bid low in summer...lots of fixed days off... now must go, need a new sail for the yacht :confused:...."

It's not bad, but it has changed radically - and who knows what's around the corner????

[Calmcavok]

Good info, thanks. It's not too difficult to achieve 12-13 DO at my current establishment, in days past 14-16 was possible. And in the distant mists of time big strings of days off were possible according to the old sages that speak fondly of the "good old days".

What would the more junior, 6 trip, lines look like wrt days off? 10 or less?

[wiggy]

OK, mea culpa, not many 6 trippers I suspect due to EASA and the fact I'm looking at Feb..however just so I can say they do exist ( I've not checked how they survived the full process- i.e. did someone end up with these as advertised or were people able to clash trips out due to sims/leave, etc):

Line 1.

DME------EWRLHR*--YYZLHR*--JFKLHR*--SAN**LHR--PEK* ( carry out)

^
yep, you're not mistaken, that's a Moscow, it's an out and back day trip.

Much more typical for the month:

---ATL*LHR--JFK*LHR--IAH**LHR--PUJ**LGW----PHL*( carry out)

Edit to add: I'll emphasise these are probably close to worse case lines in terms of days worked/trips flown, there are many better. You may be able do better than these and Blindlines might have TASS days (potential days off) instead of trip(s), but think of them as possible worse case.

Anther thought on days off - how do you regard a local day free of duty down route? A day wasted or a day off - I know a lot depends on family...and where it is..e.g. caribbean vs..???....

Must go, wearing keyboard out.......

[Calmcavok]

Anther thought on days off - how do you regard a local day free of duty down route? A day wasted or a day off - I know a lot depends on family...and where it is..e.g. caribbean vs..???....

An age old question. It suits the company more and I'm still somewhere at the behest of someone else. However it can be useful if there is a plan to meet family or have other plans downroute. Still not a proper day off in my book though.

[Cheshireflyer1973]

Please could someone give me the current annual pay points (pay increments, if that's the correct name for them) for a new joining 777 FO? Either on here or privately is fine, whichever you prefer. I am starting in April and my wife has been offered a new job, but it needs careful checking on our finances, so a 5 year progression of pay would be brilliant. Many thanks

[RexBanner]

You've got to love the horror attached to a Moscow "there and back in a day" - particularly on the 777 - when easyJet crews have been doing this for a long time on a much slower A319. As has been said before you have to take the doom and gloom from people firmly inside the BA bubble with a pinch of salt.

Wiggy, try Sharm and back in a day. Yes you read that correctly ;-)

[wiggy]

Oh dear, no whinging or horror from me ......I've "commuted" down the back with Easy often enough to have compared rosters and have heard a lot about the Sharm....

My comment was made because anyone reading a BA Long Haul roster for the first time might be perplexed to see the DME and might think it's a mistake/typo/or a carry in following a nightstop from the previous month (it's on first of the month) hence the comment.

There's no need to apologise, just hope that clears it up.

[RexBanner]

Wiggy I meant no offence and no worries I appreciate that the point was simply made to clarify the tripline in question. However, there are plenty of your (my) colleagues who I know for a fact would have a good whinge at that particular "trip".

I appreciate all your postings as it is helping plenty of people to plan for their (in my case distant) future.

Cheers

[mr ripley]

The other thing to note is that we get 2 weeks leave in summer and winter and a weeks Duty Free each season (to make up for Bank holidays). You can opt to work in the DFW. Most people can get therefore a week off every other month. What you used to be able to do easily, but can sometimes be achieved, is to make the week off bigger by bidding appropriately.

We can still sector swap on trips to make your's shorter or longer and this is a computer transaction that will happen if legal.

I used to think that a full line was about 15/16/17 days of work and about 12 nights away on the 777. And at the moment we have about 52 destinations.

[TopBunk]

Rex

BA shorthaul have been doing DME (and before that SVO) day trips since well before Easyjet was a glint in Stelios' mind.

It is a recent BA change from a short haul route to long haul that has seen the Club World product deployed on the ex BMed/BMI A321's and B777 and B744 aircraft on the route.

Hell, I remember doing an SVO return back in 1990 for BA on a B737-200 @ M0.72 with no area navigation system (*) and having to track NDB's all the way through Russia. The return sector with strong headwinds is in my logbook at 5 hrs 14.

Just saying!

(*) we had area nav using auto dme/dme tuning but there weren't any/enough at any time to give any reliable accuracy

[wiggy]

Rex

there are plenty of your (my) colleagues who I know for a fact would have a good whinge at that particular "trip".

Now I certainly can't argue with that :). :ok:

ATB

[ETOPS]

how do you regard a local day free of duty down route?

That's why golf was invented - I've played in every continent apart from Antarctica.....:ok:

[Right Engine]

All this talk of how EASA has affected long haul. SH has REALLY been impacted.

Prior to 0600, 3 sector days used to be limited to 9hrs 30. 4 I believe was 9hrs?

It is now 12hrs. This means early, early reports can now finish around 5pm. When the BALPA council of LH reps advised us that Short Haul will be changing it's scheduling agreement to harmonise with EASA limits in 2014. There was uproar.
We are now starting to see trips constructed with these 'augmentations' that prior to this deal, would have been illegal under the old CAA scheme.

In other words, we now have trips constructed that 2 years ago, would have required up to 2 1/2 hours of discretion to fly them.

This summer, with the addition of nearly 30 charter there-and-backs, it is highly likely that most trips will be constructed to EASA limits in order to fly the program.

We still do not have a visible Fatigue Management Reporting System.

Welcome to SH. Devised by BA. Sculpted by BALPA.

[Holdpoolin]

Hi all,

Any insiders aware of how the rated A320 recruitment is going? Hopefully the A320 pool of potentials has dried up over the past 18 months or so and the sub 2000hrs non-Airbus brigade swimmers can be unleashed on the training department! Also, (no-one having a crystal ball appreciated) any idea what the 2017 DEP requirement may look like, should pass the 2000hr mark Jan/Feb next year...many thanks.

[Jwscud]

Those of us working for the low cost competition have been doing 4 sector early duties with reports before 0600 and a duty time limit of 12 hours. Many of these days are well in excess of 8 hours block flying and in the summer one could be doing 5 of these in a row. I agree they are very much hard graft, especially in a noisy and uncomfortable flight deck like the 737.

I appreciate this is a fairly unpleasant shock to the system but if BASH is to keep up with the competition it will be harder and harder to do so without trying to work the aircraft (and necessarily the crew) harder.

[Fursty Ferret]

Those of us working for the low cost competition have been doing 4 sector early duties with reports before 0600 and a duty time limit of 12 hours.

Already got 'em at BA. Had a string of early trips last week which included breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Don't forget, though - EASA is safer...

[Max Angle]

Heard from someone the other day that EASA are thinking of renaming the themselves and deleting the word "safety" from the the name, be much more appropriate.

When the BALPA council of LH reps advised us that Short Haul will be changing it's scheduling agreement to harmonise with EASA limits in 2014. There was uproar.There was not "uproar", there was the same indifference and lack of action that has allowed BA to walk all over BALPA and the CC to walk all over the short haul membership. How many CC reps were sent packing after the decision?, none as far as I know.

[lfrk]

Hi guys,

I am looking for software or app to prepare day 1 on MAC or ipad, any advice?

Thanks

[RJ100]

I would say try assessment day.com for verbal reasoning, however I received an email from BA recruitment this morning to tell me they've just changed the verbal reasoning test to a different style. So months of practice is out of the window and time to research the new style in time for Day 1. As for the computer based competency tests I didn't get any online. Hi guys,

I am looking for software or app to prepare day 1 on MAC or ipad, any advice?

Thanks

[VJW]

What style is it now?

[clmax]

Hello Guys!

Just received word from BA that the Verbal Reasoning Test for Day 1 has been "updated" :confused:. I was sent an example which now seems to cover any of the following....

1. Following Instructions
2. Numerical Estimations
3. Mechanical Comprehension
4. Fault Finding
5. Spatial Checking
6. Diagrammatic Thinking/Reasoning

The email basically said, please note that we have updated the verbal reasoning test. Therefore please use the refreshed practice leaflet attached, VTS1.

This verbal reasoning test measures the ability to follow written instructions. The topics covered are designed to be relevant to a technical environment and draw on the kind of materials often associated with equipment manuals or operating instructions.

Good luck!!!

[Dihaz]

clmax,

I understand that only the 'ability to follow written instructions' (i.e. Test 1) of the VTS1 leaflet will feature.

Perhaps being able to follow instructions from that cryptic email is the first part of the assessment...! :-/

Its a million times better than the previous verbal reasoning test IMHO

[moku]

I attended day one last week and was asked after the two normal tests if we'd mind staying on and taking the new VR test as a trial. So most of us said yes and took the new style test aswell. To be honest it was much easier than the old test. A welcome change! The style was just as in test one as per the email. clmax,

I understand that only the 'ability to follow written instructions' (i.e. Test 1) of the VTS1 leaflet will feature.

Perhaps being able to follow instructions from that cryptic email is the first part of the assessment...! :-/

Its a million times better than the previous verbal reasoning test IMHO

[Twiglet1]

Right engine
12hrfdp reporting before 0600
Problem is the rest of Europe has been doing this (safely?) for many many years.
I can't see however much discretion being used though.
Lastly don't forget airlines can derogate round ease limits much like they could cap371.
If BA pilots want to work/swap so they can do back to backs so they can get nice runs of days off all they need to do is come up with a safety case. You can bet no one will mention the F word....

[Right Engine]

There was not "uproar", there was the same indifference and lack of action that has allowed BA to walk all over BALPA and the CC to walk all over the short haul membership. How many CC reps were sent packing after the decision?, none as far as I know.

I know of many resignations from BALPA because of this. I estimate over a 100. Which is around 25% of the SH P1 community. But yes, all reps remain.

[Dihaz]

Moku,

Thanks! Can you confirm that it was just the VTS1 Test 'following written instructions'?

It seems straight forward to me...

Thanks!

[prisoner24601]

They must know that this day and age no one actually reads instructions and just has a play with it to understand how to use something.

[backcourse12]

Hello,

I was invited to Day 1 selection at BA...
A question to the people who have been there already:
Are the numerical reasoning tests only about diagrams readings and calculations?
Are you allowed to use a calculator for those tests?
I personally use the assessment Day website to get some practice..
Many thx

[Tiotes massive head]

After being invited to an interview, how many dates are usually available?

I received an invitation last week but have only been able to see a couple of dates that they have available. Does anyone know how often new slots are opened up?

Cheers!

Tiote.

[Pilot Chris]

New slots open up regularly but not at any set time, just keep an eye on the website.

[CrazyEddy]

Has anyone done the Sim assesment recently who would be happy to share thier stories? I have one at the end of the month and would be very grateful to hear the scenarios etc that people have recently encountered.

Thanks very much in advance

CE

[angelo26]

First of all good evening to everybody! first time here in the forum :)
I am about to apply to BA, last time my application was not taken in consideration in the very first stage.
Would be possible to have some advice on how to be called for day 1?
thank you in advance!

Best regards
Angelo

[moku]

How long are people waiting to hear if they get through to the next stage?

[CrazyEddy]

So far - about a week after Day 1, 5 days after Day 2.

CE

[Twinstar2007]

I see BA have extended the closing dates for both LH and SH to the 13th March 2016

They do seem to be recruiting a lot, are they expanding more than previously said and the need for more pilots.

I would have thought after all those roadshows in the Gulf and UK and Ireland they would have easily filled up there requirments.

[no sponsor]

I flew with a recruitment bod recently. They said the quality of applications has decreased in recent months, hence the applications needed to keep coming. People aren't quite as taken with the BA lifestyle or money anymore. He talked of guys in the interview who couldn't come up with a convincing answer of why they wanted to join BA, some just didn't seem to be bothered if they passed or not!

[Twinstar2007]

No Sponsor - Thank you for the clarification, it explains now why they keep opening up recruitment, it must be costing them lots of money to recruit

Cullin - Sorry to hear that you did not make it this time round.

I understand that BA policy is that if you have failed any day, then you must wait 12 months before putting in an application, surely at a time of needing so many pilots they would reduce the wait to 6 months, I really cannot understand what they hope you will achieve in 12 months, I guess if they are extremely fussy on computer tests etc the application will remain open again for another go by the time 12 months have expired.

[Level_FL350]

Anyone know of 757 sims or had experience with 'sim prep' organisations. I've seen several online.
No Boeing experience and feel I may need the practice.

[tommytailwind]

You no longer have to wait 12 months. Emails go out to some people within 6 months inviting them back. I had an email inviting me back to the sim after only 5 months and then passed and start shorly at BA. Never give up!

[Juan Tugoh]

While BA may be finding it harder to find the right people, that does not mean that the numbers applying has reduced. BA can still cherry pick, and they are still looking for a certain type of person to fit their own particular culture. The market is getting tougher, there are more opportunities for those suitably qualified for BA, many will need a much better package before BA becomes a place that they will leave where they are to go to. So recruitment will continue. The current uncertainty over pensions and rostering will settle down in the next few years and, if needed, BA will up their offering.

[Flaperon75]

and, if needed, BA will up their offering.

errrrr...... How exactly? With very structured and clearly defined pay scales and t&c's, what do you think they could change for new entrants?

[Level_FL350]

Read with interest all the comments on terms, conditions etc, still attracts me (for my personal requirements) more than any other company and certainly my current position. What's good for one individual may not suit another as we all know...
So....
Anyone know of 757 sims or have experience of Sim prep organisations out there?
No Boeing experience and would like to prepare as well as possible for sim.
Good luck to all other applicants that are looking to join.

[wiggy]

... very structured and clearly defined pay scales and t&c's,

True, but the numbers therein are not immovable,

what do you think they could change for new entrants?

So in theory a significant across the board significant pay rise would help ............but it's not going to happen :rolleyes:

[eckhard]

Level_FL350,

I think the assessment does not use much of the 'automatics', so as long as your basic instrument scan is up to speed, you should handle a Boeing as well as you do an Airbus.

The big difference is TRIMMING!
Have your thumb on the stab trim switches and remember to use them whenever you change thrust setting, speed or flaps. Thrust has the biggest effect, due to the under-slung engines.

When you think that you have it in trim, relax your grip and see if the pitch attitude is constant. It's easy to hold a small out of trim condition without realising it until you get distracted by something else and then your altitude changes by 100ft before you know it.

The 757 has a first generation EFIS with an EADI and EHSI but conventional ASI, Altimeter and VSI, so keep your eyes moving! Remember to include EPR or N1 in your scan.

If you find yourself in the 747, it has a PFD and ND quite like the Airbus but you still need to TRIM.

If your brain goes to mush, set 6* nose-up pitch attitude and 60% N1 for level flight. That should work in either the 747 or 757.

USE THE STAB TRIM!

[Level_FL350]

Cullin hard luck, but to echo another post, I also had an email back less than 12 months after and now at this stage...

Eckhard... Thanks for the detailed reply, much appreciated.

Sensible assumption that I'm flying Airbus' but not the case. Currently on 2 types, one analogue, one EFIS with mainly that experience. Heavier weight, inertia etc is a factor as well as Boeing knowledge, hence thinking that an hour or two of 757 sim time would be well worth it for several reasons.

Don't want all the good teamwork, decision making, CRM skills built up over the years to be blown away by bad handling due to a lack of experience on heavy Boeings.

Thanks for all the advice.

P.S Re left or right seat in the sim, currently fly from both but probably have a natural handling preference for the left. Any views if this is perceived presumptuous! (I do know they say you can sit in either seat but saying that and how it's percieved could be different!)

[Twinstar2007]

Smooth Airperator

I agree it does seem quite outdated to subject very experienced DEP to that method of selection, if BMI guys who were absorbed into BA and long serving guys within BA who are successfully flying the line who didn't do those tests then I fail to see BA logic.

I know one person did ask that question during one of their roadshow and they were told the reason for these tests is to give an indication how you will cope during the sim test and line training, maybe for a zero hour cadet but for DEP it doesn't quite make sense.

I will probaly receive stick that its their train set etc which is true, but lets face it, look at how they have been recruiting for long and basing their decisions on an outdated computer test, surely if your good enough for other large major operators, then why not BA? maybe BA should open their own flying school to tailor their needs in order to recruit the pilots they desire, its a changing market now, not the days of BOAC being the only decent airline.

[RexBanner]

I used to be as critical as anyone regarding the day one tests. I failed them back when I was in my late teens when applying for the old sponsorship and then again in 2014 and genuinely believed I just couldn't make the grade in these tests. Nothing could be further from the truth. I sat them again last year and passed with flying colours (ahem). The key is preparation.

Instead of moaning relentlessly about them (and I was as guilty of that as anyone) why not just bust a gut in order to achieve the grade? Nothing comes easy and if you really want to work for BA then you must accept it might take some effort, I have a strong belief that that's a large part of what they want to see from you during the selection procedure. I did my sim assessment with a guy who very obviously hadn't learned the profiles and pitch/power settings they sent us. How do you think that comes across to an examiner? Needless to say he failed the sim.

If you're a commercial pilot worth your salt then you CAN pass them it just takes prep. BA obviously have a specific reason for using them otherwise they wouldn't exist. Good luck to everyone applying.

[VJW]

I've failed their selection a few times now and am pretty sure it's the verbal reasoning that gets me each time.

It is their train set sure, but the first time I went for the assessment back in 2010 the day 1 then was the current day 1 and 2 combined (computer test am & interview/group exercise pm). I admit I didn't put anywhere near enough effort in back then for reasons other then just laziness, which of course I regret now (hindsight is wonderful). I did assume if you were marginal on one of the computer tests, you could perhaps still get the nod for the sim if you produced a good interview. Now it does feel like they don't give you a chance to meet the real person on day one, and you leave there having failed in my case with no one actually meeting you.

As Twinstar2007 said, it's unlikely a DEP can't operate an aircraft so the first few days are simply to see if you would fit into their company. People pass the computer tests with luck sometimes as much as some might fail due to bad luck. Personally I think that having the interview/group exercise combined on the first day at least gave you a chance to show who you are, and because of this failing then was far less disappointing then failing now.

ps. The most recent time I failed, I probably put two months of study into the verbal test and failed.

[Cuillin Hills]

Thanks for the comments in respect of my earlier posts.

I have no complaint with the BA aptitude tests - whether we like it or not it is their choice. I turned up - I failed it. I am fairly certain it was on one particular computer test.

The point I was trying to make is that I am not getting too excited about being, effectively, told by BA that I have insufficient multi-tasking skills or situational awareness. I have a proven history in aviation since nineteen years of age.

I realise that if I was willing to part with a sum of money to practice the testing online then I would have improved my chances somewhat. Is that a real test or a filter?

I thought I could pass it - I was wrong.

I considered this part of the selection as the most difficult part for me and was looking forward to the interview and sim as a highly motivated individual with a positive attitude towards a future career in BA.

As others have said - it is shame that BA write you off when they haven't even met the individual.

I am just disappointed that I couldn't have taken my application any further.

I will, quite happily, continue to encourage people I fly with to get their application in to BA as I still believe it is the best long-term job in the UK.

[tommytailwind]

Cullin hard luck, but to echo another post, I also had an email back less than 12 months after and now at this stage...

Eckhard... Thanks for the detailed reply, much appreciated.

Sensible assumption that I'm flying Airbus' but not the case. Currently on 2 types, one analogue, one EFIS with mainly that experience. Heavier weight, inertia etc is a factor as well as Boeing knowledge, hence thinking that an hour or two of 757 sim time would be well worth it for several reasons.

Don't want all the good teamwork, decision making, CRM skills built up over the years to be blown away by bad handling due to a lack of experience on heavy Boeings.

Thanks for all the advice.

P.S Re left or right seat in the sim, currently fly from both but probably have a natural handling preference for the left. Any views if this is perceived presumptuous! (I do know they say you can sit in either seat but saying that and how it's percieved could be different!)

Level_FL350, I flew from the left seat in my BA sim check and I'm sure they couldn't care less which seat you're in. From experience, I wouldn't bother paying for a practice sim seasion anywhere either, despite your lack of Boeing time. I did just that a year ago and failed. The feedback was that my rate of improvement in terms of handling was not fast enough throughout the session. Had I not practiced beforehand (I too was non-Boeing rated) I think it may have been a different story.

Fast forward 12 months and I've now passed and have a start date. I certainly didn't bother practicing in a sim this time round and I felt I improved greatly throughout the sim. Hope the advice helps. Learn those pitch & power settings though! They are absolutely essential especially if you're non Boeing rated.

[salty320]

Great work mate, great to hear some positive news!! I completely agree, hard work and hours preparing will go a long way to getting you through the process as well. And remember to keep your head up!


If you dont mind me asking when is your start date?:)

[727Man]

Congrats to all who made it to day 1 of selection, I attended one of their roadshows,emailed the recruitment team like I was told, took my time with the application essay questions, had it looked over and proof read. Got a not successful email. And my application status still says submitted?? same sort of experience as Cuillin Hills.

[A340Yumyum]

All assessments are now in 747 sim. The 757 one has been sold.

[Phantom4]

Is that with immediate effect or April as was posted earlier.

[Level_FL350]

Thanks Tommytailwind, again all advice much appreciated. All the best with your start date.


Any news then on sim dates in March being 757 or 747??

[Fursty Ferret]

No Boeing experience and feel I may need the practice

Don't pay for a practice sim.

Whoever's assessing your sim will be experienced at the game and will know straight away if you've spent several hours having a go at it (esp. if you went from PA34 for A320 like many people).

You get an unassessed take-off, circuit, approach and landing for "free" at the start of the session and you figure out what the steering wheel thing is fairly quickly. The assessor was shouting "TRIM!" from the back during mine so it's not like they throw you in at the deep end to see what happens.

[RexBanner]

Fursty Ferret this has been debated to death I'm sure but I don't think it really matters whether you practice or not beforehand. I know that the previous head of recruitment was dead against it - and personally I didn't - but I know of plenty of ex colleagues from Flybe who did and passed their sim assessment. Maybe it depends on the instructor on the day but there is no hard rule you can hang your hat on saying not to have a go at a Boeing sim or even a 747 sim beforehand.

[HPbleed]

I'm with Rex on this one, nothing wrong with a couple of hours practice in a 737 just to remember what trimming is like (after flying Airbus for years).

Whoever's assessing your sim will be experienced at the game and will know straight away if you've spent several hours having a go at it

They'll also want to know you've put the work in, nothing wrong with being keen. Not doing some practice may be seen as being lazy.

[RHS]

I agree with Rex. I personally did have one session. Having never flown a large 4 engine aircraft before, to then go in and fly a fairly in depth sim assessment, to at least have some idea as to where the instruments etc are was invaluable. It didn't make me outstanding on the day, but it did allow me to free up some capacity to concentrate on making sensible decisions, and show some CRM with my sim partner, which is what they are actually looking for.

The best advice I was given was, make sure your sim partner looks good, and you'll pass.

The BA assessments are mostly about the prep, and independently putting the work in. I prepped for day one, I spent a month doing practice interviews and thinking through every question I could find for day two, so what would have been the point in going to day 3 completely cold.

Having said all this, I think paying for a 10/12 hour course is a bit over kill, and really not necessary.

Best of Luck!

[EZY_FR]

Has anyone who attended BA's day 1 selection recently able to confirm that the verbal reasoning test has changed?

[Dupre]

Hi all,

Got the good news I have been invited for day 1. Could anyone who has been there recently (or is going soon!) give any feedback? It would be great to talk to someone to ease the nerves ☺. PMs welcome!

Thanks, Dupre.

[Enzo999]

Just wondering how long it took for people to hear an outcome from day 1? They said 5 days but I seem to remember from the past that people with a "yes" tend to hear quickly and the PFO's are left till last, is this the case? It's been 5 days for me so far and my hopes are fading fast, refreshing my emails every 5 minutes is driving me mad.

[monquay]

Enzo999, it depends entirely on how busy they are, it took nearly 2 weeks for me to hear last year, and I was sucessful!
HTH and good luck!

[Rolling24]

Has anyone got any news/rumours about the direct entry NTR SH recruitment that has been going on over the past couple of weeks and any idea how many they were looking to take this time round?

[Jwscud]

I know from chatting to friends at Flybe that some who were previously "frozen" in the recruitment process have been melted and are progressing to interview/sim but no "inside" information beyond that.

[Speedoneeighty]

Don't pay for a practice sim.

Whoever's assessing your sim will be experienced at the game and will know straight away if you've spent several hours having a go at it (esp. if you went from PA34 for A320 like many people).

You get an unassessed take-off, circuit, approach and landing for "free" at the start of the session and you figure out what the steering wheel thing is fairly quickly. The assessor was shouting "TRIM!" from the back during mine so it's not like they throw you in at the deep end to see what happens.

Terrible advice.

[dhps]

Hi everyone,

Going to the second stage interview next week.

Just wondered if the format was pretty much the same as it has been the last few years?

Collected some various example questions but everything seems to be for 2014 and later, the same as what seems to be on pprune.

If anyone had some updated info/questions I'd really appreciate it.

[VeroFlyer]

Actually not practising is not terrible advice. It really depends on where you are coming from. I got through on the 757 sim without paying thousands of pounds for a practice sim. Currently flying a 737 out in the middle east and smashed a few raw data ILS's and departures before coming but otherwise just concentrated on honing my CRM skills and such like, I believe that's what they are really looking for.
Thats not to say paying for a sim is a complete waste of money but try and use the resources on offer to you in your current job if you can. Talk to CRM trainers, practice hand flying and delve into the CAA books on CRM.

[Boing7117]

Paying for a couple of hours in a sim is a good idea - if that's what it takes to give you the confidence / heads up to give the BA sim your best shot.

Let's face it - £500-£1500 or whatever it costs, it's the cheapest type rating you'll ever do these days!

[VJW]

Well said Boing7117 - the last bit is very true. Someone above said that it made no sense to prepare long and hard for day 1 and 2 and go to the sim rusty. So a few hours to remove that would certainly be advisable, however my advice would be to ensure you show improvement during the sim. I'm sure they want to see that you have good CRM and just as important, that you are trainable. They are investing a type rating in you most likely, so showing improvement I think looks far better then flying like an ace who's had numerous hours practice prior to the assessment.

[Mizar]

Hi All,

Think the subject has been mentioned a couple of times before, anyone who could shed some light on the obnoxious 12 months ban:ugh::ugh:. Is BA going to change it anytime soon?? A 6 months ban these days would make much more sense IMO.

Thanks

[Juan Tugoh]

More sense for whom, you or BA?

[VJW]

haha - for him I guess, but it's nice to have a bit of confidence and think for BA too :)

I've failed day 1 a few times now, does that automatically mean I won't be an asset to the company the day I finally pass?

[Jwscud]

Regarding the sim, there is no one size fits all answer. If you fly short haul on a Boeing type, just doing some raw data flying and armchair prep will leave you fine. If you fly the 320, raw data might also be enough (it was all my sim partner, who passed, did) though equally reminding yourself what thrust levers and the trim switch do might also help.

If you are flying long haul, I would imagine some specific sim prep for a high workload raw data manual flying exercise would be a very good idea. We are generally judges of our own strengths and weaknesses on the flight deck and you will probably know what's best for you.

If you are flying a turboprop the whole thing will probably feel like a rest cure, though if you are worried about a slippery jet a sim might help boost your confidence.

They are not necessarily looking for "improvement" as such, but I was told in my briefing we were being assessed on:

- flying ability
- command potential/decision making
- trainability

Best of luck!

[Megaton]

They're also looking to see a positive learning curve ie a continuous improvement through the session such that the applicant demonstrates trainability (apologises for made-up word).

[Mizar]

Well, I guess for both. ahaha yep that is idealistic.
Anyway I guess I should take that for a no. So I have to imagine the guys that were called back before the 12 months expired were already rated on a type BA is currently using.

[wiggy]

Ladies/Gents

Bidline/Fixed Flying Pay

Result of ballot on pay deal just announced, long story short, the two main bullet points probably of most relevance to prospective joiners are:

1. Bidline will go ASAP in favour of a customised version of JSS.

2. Fixed monthly Flying Pay Allowance binned, it's back to the variable Flying Hour Rate.

[VeroFlyer]

Wiggy,

Is that good or bad? What are the general thoughts?

[wiggy]

Wiggy,

Is that good or bad? What are the general thoughts?

TBH I'm not sure I want to go there ....we've had an ongoing and what has been at times a very unpleasant "on-line" debate via the Union forum in the run up to the ballot, and I'm not sure I want to repeat it here.

However anyone joining in the near future will no doubt be exposed to the fall out from this ballot so what I would say, all very much IMHO:

Some think Bidline is doomed now we are "full EASA" so we need to move on, some don't. Some think JSS might flatten the seniority gradient, some think it might steepen it...personally I honestly don't think anybody will know for sure how rostering will work until they've seen it in action so voting either way on this was a real leap of faith.

As far as the flying pay, the company didn't like the fixed monthly payment and were determined to go back to a variable rate, and they pretty much linked the continuation of a pilot bonus scheme to returning to the variable scheme. As a result on the line opinion was split - some like variable rate (work higher hours = get paid more) plus the chance of a bonus if the company continues to perform well, but some ( particularly those looking to get loans, mortgages) are not best pleased at the prospect of losing a fixed figure from the monthly payslip.


To give you an idea of the split in opinion, of those that returned votes:

54.4% voted to end Bidline/ go to JSS and get rid of the Fixed Flying pay.
43.8% voted to keep Bidline and keep Fixed flying pay....
1.8% voted for neither ( a somewhat controversial Option on the ballot paper)

....and would you believe over 20% of those who could have voted didn't return a vote ( which was electronic).....at all. Given this was quite possibly the most important ballot we've had in BA BALPA for over 20 years all I can say about those individuals not voting is :mad:

[Megaton]

Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?

[3Greens]

i thought the turnout was 65%

[Jaffo320]

Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?

I have flown with a few Captains who did not vote for exactly that reason.

[Tay Cough]

Existing Bidline was largely rendered extinct by the advent of EASA, mainly the requirement for a certain number of days off after a Longhaul trip crossing four or more timezones.

We were being asked to choose between "Bidline 17" or a BA version of Jeppesen Strict Seniority, both of which it was argued were more useable with EASA. The controversy comes when you realise that neither system exists yet and we were basically being asked to vote based upon a series of statements about each. Oh yes, and the percentage pay deal side of it was identical for both options, with some sweeteners for the preferred deal. So not really a pay ballot.

Anyway, we are where we are so we'll see if JSS actually works.

Ref FPA or Flying Pay, FPA is guaranteed monthly, Flying Pay is hours dependent. It will be interesting to see how mortgage providers interpret it for the most junior.

[wiggy]

Perhaps those not voting are close to retirement and took the decision that the choice wasn't theirs to make?

I know for sure there was a bit of that (and I understand the logic) but I don't we've got a rough total of 800'ish pilots so close to retirement that they all aren't going to cast a vote (though of course I agree it depends how you define close)...

3Greens

i thought the turnout was 65%

From my e-mail from BALPA: "Ballot Return 79.8%"..

FWIW there was a bit of confusion caused by one or two "wags" on the Union forum chucking some ficticious figures around just before the official announcement....

[Jwscud]

Questions:

1. When is this being implemented?

2. What happens to the "Fixed flight pay" for those of us joining who are unlikely to see an aircraft for the first few months of training and had perhaps done sums based on the pay numbers given to us by BA? Do you simply get nothing?

3. What exactly are these statements about JSS and how is it supposed to work?

I am working my notice at the moment and obviously don't regret my decision to leave the land of the Irish loco at all but have no information about the current pay deal beyond what BA have given me and wouldn't know about this change except for what people have posted on here.

[wiggy]

What happens to the "Fixed flight pay" for those of us joining who are unlikely to see an aircraft for the first few months of training

AFAIK the change to pay and the system is fairly instant.

I very much stand to be corrected but I'm not sure new joiners picked up Flying pay (variable or fixed) from day one anyway, so plan on being on basic. Somebody I'm sure will correct me or will clarify when Flying pay/Rate is first triggered (perhaps early days of line training when the requirement for a safety pilot is dropped ?). In any event from now on in your career in BA the variable rate will not get paid unless you fly, so if you are sick, or doing an internal type conversion/upgrade or ground course within BA you will lose an element of your monthly pay. However the theory is that when you actually do fly it's an higher hourly rate and so there's an offset/break even point of x00 hours a year, but certainly the loss of pay if on the ground for any reason was one of the objections that many had to the change back to the variable rate.

What exactly are these statements about JSS and how is it supposed to work?

Good question. You'll no longer be bidding for lines, you'll be expressing preferences (bid groups). The most senior pilots will get first pick, but perhaps with a lesser chance of picking up all the top work/days off.. ....as for how it works in reality I know one or two people who think they know how it might work, the rest of us...............

.

[nebby]

Does anyone happen to know what the Flying Pay figure will be?

Also, will the figure be based on actual on/off blocks or scheduled block times?

In the same position as Jwscud so would be useful to know for some calculations.

[GS-Alpha]

I personally think both systems would have effectively been the same anyway. The big reason not to vote B would have been to prolongue what we have now, as JSS will now be here in no time at all.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Ref FPA or Flying Pay, FPA is guaranteed monthly, Flying Pay is hours dependent. It will be interesting to see how mortgage providers interpret it for the most junior.

This is NOT a good result for those of us lower down the pecking order. As someone looking to move house this summer, I've now got to explain to Mrs 2W2R why we have to adjust our budget.....downward.

As for JSS, only time will tell on that front. Being asked to vote on something that was put forward as a set of assumptions and doesn't yet exist didn't exactly fill me (or many many others) with confidence.

This is democracy at work and we don't always get what we want in life, but as far as I'm concerned, BALPA have just 'negotiated' away two massive items and yet I'm left pondering what's on our side of the scales to balance the equation. Or have we just had our pockets pinched.....I'm on Reserve in April, here's to looking forward to May's pay packet :ugh::ugh::ugh: .

Anyway, it's done now so lets just hope JSS is as good as we've been led to believe. Meanwhile, I'll be assessing my outgoings each month....guess which one will be first.

Evening All.

2W2R

[GS-Alpha]

Personally I'm happy to see the FHR return because I've been short changed by several thousand pounds per year ever since FPA arrived. I never did understand the argument that it is good for when you are sick or on a conversion course. I'd rather stick my couple of grand of extra earnings in the bank each year and have an emergency fund for if I am unfortunate enough to become sick. Mortgages; yes I suppose that will take a bit more discussion with the banks, but I always found BA's mortgage certificate perfectly satisfactory before. I did not see an increase in what I was allowed when FHR first disappeared, so why do we expect a reduction now?

[Tay Cough]

Mortgage provider's lending criteria are a lot different now compared to how they were prior to the introduction of FPA (some may say "tougher").

[Jwscud]

To be fair regarding Bidline, BA made clear at the roadshows I went to last year that it was liable to change in the not too distant future.

However, they gave the clear impression that flight pay was a fixed part of pay from day 1.

When is JSS slated to come into being? I guess I might not see any blind lines after all, or rather everyone will get blind lines of some form!

[eckhard]

JSS will come in around 18 months from now, apparently; so mid to late 2017.

[FlyingTinCans]

Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?

So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay? If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?

[wiggy]

FTC

Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?

So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?

No. FWIW I did both an command upgrade and then later a conversion under the system we're effectively going back to and during both courses my pay was reduced down to basic for the ground phase of the courses.

If it helps I'll quote in part from a BALPA e-mail describing how the "Flying Pay Supplement"(FPS), or hourly rate will work:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FPS will be paid per planned flying hour .......The planned date of introduction is in April 2016.
The break even points for pilots between [the old] FPA and the new FPS, taking into account the fixed payments while on leave under FPS, are as follows:
320/767/LGW 705 hours
744/777/787/380 730 hours
Any pilot flying above these hours, will be better off under FPS, and vice versa (my emphasis).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moving on:

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay?

TBH it didn't turn out that way since the intial two options the BALPA Company Council offered in the ballot contained exactly same pay deal....FWIW a hastily introduced "C", "we don't accept any change to T&Cs", didn't attract many votes.....

Perhaps some can begin to understand why the debate elsewhere got quite heated, and that's before considering the merits of the rostering systems...

....If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?

Yes - Three year deal: Year 1: 2% underpin or RPI, Year 2: 2.5% underpin or RPI, Year 3: 2.5% underpin or RPI

I've deliberately left the bonus scheme we've also agreed to out of the discussion, I honestly think that boils down to "do you feel lucky".

Lengthy post but hope it helps.

[Lead]

Doesn't BA pay for duty time as well as flight time?

So you should get basic plus time for ground duties (type rating, conversion course etc)?

Wasn't this vote also about an overall increase in pay? If so do we know how much if any the % increase is?

2% uplift. No, BA doesn't pay allowances on ground duties.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

2% uplift. No, BA doesn't pay allowances on ground duties.


Had there been an option D to include FPA and JSS I suspect it would have been very popular.

To add insult to injury I gather a very pleasant member of our cabin crew fraternity has been on Trip Advisor complaining about BA pilots getting preferential treatment at a certain T5 coffee bar and as a result the days of cheap coffee (by that I mean free coffee but with a healthy Tip for the brilliant staff) are over too.....

Pathetic :yuk:

[Flap62]

If anyone has a P380 course coming up then please feel free to PM me as i have a couple of bits of training material that might be handy.

[FlyingTinCans]

Thanks for the info Wiggy,

So if you join BA after next month you've been given a pay cut of around £1000 per month for the first 3 months :ouch:

[wiggy]

That number sounds a bit high but maybe a newer joiner than I :rolleyes: can look back at their figures and do the sums.

TBF (or not), any pilot doing a course, going sick, or doing a reserve/standby block and not getting much if any any flying will take a hit from next month. The argument from the union is that the new hourly rate is rigged in such as way as to ensure over the long term the majority of pilots will end up better off financially than under the fixed allowance....

[Megaton]

So if you join BA after next month you've been given a pay cut of around £1000 per month for the first 3 months

Not even close. Long haul Flying Pay Allowqnce was/is just over £600 per month so after tax under the new regime you'll lose approx £360 per month. BA isn't keen on having pilots sitting around so you'll almost certainly start your line training within two months of your start date. So rather than lose £3000 you'll actually lose closer to £720 net of tax which you recoup quickly at the new Flying Hour Rate.

[hunterboy]

"To add insult to injury I gather a very pleasant member of our cabin crew fraternity has been on Trip Advisor complaining about BA pilots getting preferential treatment at a certain T5 coffee bar and as a result the days of cheap coffee (by that I mean free coffee but with a healthy Tip for the brilliant staff) are over too....."

Probably the best way to describe how the corporate culture works in BA to a newcomer. Just don't take it personally.

[wiggy]

Yes it was indeed a classic example of the behaviour sometimes encountered off the aircraft:

"I don't see why you should get that, I want it was well and if I can't have it I'll darn well make sure you don't get it either" :oh:??

As you say - thick skin required (especially in the early days) and try not to take it personally....

[MEA07CP]

Any idea what the new hourly flying rate is guys....?

[Megaton]

Probably about £10 per hour.

[Juan Tugoh]

Personally I'm happy to see the FHR return because I've been short changed by several thousand pounds per year ever since FPA arrived. I never did understand the argument that it is good for when you are sick or on a conversion course. I'd rather stick my couple of grand of extra earnings in the bank each year and have an emergency fund for if I am unfortunate enough to become sick. Mortgages; yes I suppose that will take a bit more discussion with the banks, but I always found BA's mortgage certificate perfectly satisfactory before. I did not see an increase in what I was allowed when FHR first disappeared, so why do we expect a reduction now?

Personally I would rather have no variable pay whatsoever, we are not blue collar workers on a piece rate. We work to a contracted amount of hours per year - call it CAP or real hours it makes no difference. We should not need to be bribed to come to work and the concept of measuring how hard we work by the hours flown is somewhat specious anyway. Hours spent in a uniform might be a better metric or perhaps sector pay. It all depends whether you are a long haul pilot where hours are king, or a short haul pilot where sectors may be better. Either way the only people that really benefit by variable pay are the companies that can manipulate the establishment downwards knowing that they can rely on sick people coming in to work when they really should not for that part of their salary that is variable. The company would, no doubt, like a return to a large proportion of variable pay for that very reason. Just because we have always had variable pay does not make it a good concept.

[Approaching Minima]

Any truth to what I've heard about pilots on the 787 fleet not working as much due to the relatively small (but expanding) fleet and all the new joiners (internal plus DEP) taking a lot of the sectors for training? If this continued will the new pay structure impact this fleet disproportionately?

[wiggy]

May have been a probelm historically but looking at April's numbers for the 787 it doesn't look to me as if they are short of work at the moment.

That said the problem you describe can crop up on a growing or a shrinking fleet.

[P0tt3r]

Not even close. Long haul Flying Pay Allowqnce was/is just over £600 per month so after tax under the new regime you'll lose approx £360 per month. BA isn't keen on having pilots sitting around so you'll almost certainly start your line training within two months of your start date. So rather than lose £3000 you'll actually lose closer to £720 net of tax which you recoup quickly at the new Flying Hour Rate.

that was more like what i was expecting it to be, so thanks for that.

[Approaching Minima]

No, just a P77L for me :O

[GS-Alpha]

Juan

For the avoidance of doubt, I would prefer no variable pay - just not at the expense of several thousands of pounds per year. Anyway I think the company is wrong about its suspicion that sickness rates have gone up because we are no longer on a variable flying hour rate. They have chosen to ignore the fact that they are now roster assigning people over the days off that they needed and therefore bidded for. You can have a low sickness rate and allow people to get off a roster assigned trip if they really need to, or you can accept that people will start actively bidding for trips over days they need off, planning to go sick because it is less likely to raise suspicion than going sick on a roster assigned trip. I'm not saying it is right, but it is what is happening and no amount of variable pay will change that.

[wiggy]

No, just a P77L for me

Almost as good as P38L

Oh good grief :bored:...it's started already.

Both are BA Longhaul Fleets :cool:

One fleet has an extensive list of destinations from Australia in the east, through India, down to South Africa, south America and then up to the American west Coast. For those that like polling the aircraft it has a high proportion of "non-augmented" sectors, and shuttle sectors (the Caribbean is rather nice at this time of year)

A very definite advantage of the 380 is you will never ever have to fly with me...........

[Dupre]

Can anyone explain what these bid codes mean? P38L etc?

Ta!

[wiggy]

Can anyone explain what these bid codes mean? P38L etc?

Ta!

The basics:

C = Captain, P = P2

78 = 787, 77 = 777, 38 = 380, I'll let you work the rest out....

L = LHR , X = LGW

So P38L is a 380 P2 Heathrow based, P77L is a 777 P2 Heathrow based.

C77L would be a 777 captain based at Heathrow, C32X is an A320 captain, Gatwick based, etc, etc.

[highfive]

I previously attended a BA roadshow . I recorded the whole thing, inc the questions and answer session with Lindsey Craig and his colleagues. 90 mins of Lots of interesting stuff inc heads up of useful information on the interviews and where BA is going and what fleet does what and the bid lines.

If anyone wants it, please PM me and i will put it on You Tube if enough folks have intrest .

[Dupre]

Thanks Wiggy, very clear now! Confirm LGW base is only for A320?


The basics:

C = Captain, P = P2

78 = 787, 77 = 777, 38 = 380, I'll let you work the rest out....

L = LHR , X = LGW

So P38L is a 380 P2 Heathrow based, P77L is a 777 P2 Heathrow based.

C77L would be a 777 captain based at Heathrow, C32X is an A320 captain, Gatwick based, etc, etc.

[wiggy]

Thanks Wiggy, very clear now! Confirm LGW base is only for A320?


That wasn't an exhaustive list, just a few examples to give you an idea of how the "coding" worked - there are lots and lots of C32L and P32L ....

[wiggy]

highfive

what fleet does what and the bid lines.

Sorry to be an old f*** but just a bit of a health warning - be wary of some of the old info pertaining to Long Haul (even if it's from the recruitment team and even if it's recent)...and remember (?) Bid Line is going.

Firstly fleet destinations change seasonally, if not more frequently. Secondly any Long Haul final rosters produced before Feb '16 won't reflect the significant EASA driven changes that came in that month. Also be aware that by the end of next year under JSS heaven knows what the monthly roster will look like.....(e.g. one big change will be the introduction of pre-constructed Long Haul back to backs)

[Dupre]

Sorry, I wasn't too clear. I was trying to ask are there any P74X, P77X, P38X, P76X, P78X or are those fleets only LHR based?

That wasn't an exhaustive list, just a few examples to give you an idea of how the "coding" worked - there are lots and lots of C32L and P32L ....

[wiggy]

Sorry, I wasn't too clear. I was trying to ask are there any P74X, P77X, P38X, P76X, P78X or are those fleets only LHR based?

Ah, got it. Only two BA mainline types routinely operate out of LGW - A320s and 777s.

The BA 320s based at Gatwick have dedicated LGW based crews (C32X and P32X).

The BA 777s operated out of Gatwick are crewed by Heathrow based pilots ( they do a mix of LHR and LGW trips, but on paper they are LHR based).

Everything else is LHR, except I guess the LCY subfleet...which I'll leave to somebody else.

[wiggy]

Only if the individual wishes to do them & the same applies to Current Ops. If you don't want to, you don't have to...or have I missed something?!

I think you're right..until the company needs them regardless of preferences to ensure work coverage :} ...

[Fletch]

As someone going through the recruitment process at the moment a couple of questions please

Glad to hear the back to back scheduling is still an option. Do the company provide accommodation between trips? Are back to back trips easy to come by or are they much coveted?

Also, the 777 out of LGW; Are the trips out of there generally quite senior or as a new start are you likely to get a sniff?

Some great information on this thread so many thanks to all

[wiggy]

Are back to back trips easy to come by or are they much coveted?

At the moment in the normal process the company do not produce back to back trips that you bid for. Individuals create them ad-hoc, either by a combination of stage 1 and then stage 2 bidding or by trip swopping after final rosters are produced. Under EASA creating legal back to backs has become much more difficult than was the case before (basically nowadays the first trip of the pair has to involve a <= 3 hour time zone change from London, which restricts options).


Do the company provide accommodation between trips?

At the moment assume the answer is no. If you do manage to create a back to back, you pay for it.

When/if people start working pre-constructed back to backs (as previously debated) then for some trip combinations the company will have to provide accomodation - at the moment we're being told that's probably not going to happen until the introduction of JSS late next year.

As far as LGW is concerned, you may get a sniff but there's a certainly hard core who like the beach...

[Jwscud]

It was suggested to me that a lot of the Middle East flights will suddenly become quite senior rather than populating junior blind lines due to the time difference being very favourable for back to backs.

Fingers crossed...

[wiggy]

"will suddenly"....

Suddenly? As in midnight 26th March ??? ;)

[pmwright]

I previously attended a BA roadshow . I recorded the whole thing, inc the questions and answer session with Lindsey Craig and his colleagues. 90 mins of Lots of interesting stuff inc heads up of useful information on the interviews and where BA is going and what fleet does what and the bid lines.

If anyone wants it, please PM me and i will put it on You Tube if enough folks have intrest .

I'd be very grateful in the recording. However, I can't work out how to PM you (new here)

Kind Regards

[Flap33]

BA are going to be "saved by" British Summer Time!

[Kirk out]

I may have missed some information?

Can some confirm that you no longer need jet hours, and the Turb-prop weight limit has been reduced to be able to apply for direct long haul.

[wiggy]

I may have missed some information?

Can some confirm that you no longer need jet hours, and the Turb-prop weight limit has been reduced to be able to apply for direct long haul.

Not sure what the official line is but at the moment (8th March) this is in part what is written on the BA Longhaul DEP requirements page at:

British Airways - Careers - Job Details (http://gs11.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_ba01.asp?newms=jj&id=61085&aid=16337)

To hold a current type rating, an ATPL(A) and have a minimum of 2000 hours total flying experience including 1000 hours on Jet transport category aircraft with MTOM greater than 25 tonnes or multi-crew turboprop transport aircraft/military equivalent with MTOM greater than 50 tonnes. Candidates must also have relevant experience, on an aircraft enabling a ZFT training course, within the 12 months preceding the start of their BA conversion course

[Speedoneeighty]

I hear that some people are going straight from a prop (atr and dash8) direct to 777 and 747.

[RexBanner]

Curse my A320 rating!! Still as long as their start date is after mine I'll be laughing in the long run. I hope.

Don't forget these people may have previous Jet time, especially in the case of Q400 Captains coming over from Flybe where they would have banked the jet time requirement on the Embraer as FOs and SFOs.

[Shaman]

I previously attended a BA roadshow . I recorded the whole thing, inc the questions and answer session with Lindsey Craig and his colleagues. 90 mins of Lots of interesting stuff inc heads up of useful information on the interviews and where BA is going and what fleet does what and the bid lines.

If anyone wants it, please PM me and i will put it on You Tube if enough folks have intrest .
HIghfive,

I would have thought that if you put it up on Youtube and gave a link to it on this thread and the "Wannabees" forum it would become very popular very quickly!

[Jwscud]

Is anyone who is flying long haul at BA and has had new children during that time willing to answer some questions via PM?

[Shaka Zulu]

Yep. Go ahead and I'll have a stab at them for you

[polepilot]

Sorry to change the subject however I am confused about some wording in the application, it says 12 months if you were unsuccessful at any stage of testing/interview/simulator assessment. You are welcome to reapply 12 months from the date you attended initial aptitude testing. I was invited back to do the interview again approx 8 months ago without having to do stage one again however my initial aptitude testing was 2 years ago, so as i see it i can apply?