BA Direct Entry Pilot. [Archive] - Page 27

Barcli

4th Nov 2019, 11:39

Bizarrely it’s reassuring to know that other swimmers aren’t hearing anything either.

Nothing here, likewise for a colleague at my current place on a similar timeline. We’re both required to give 3 months notice which I guess is industry standard. It’d be nice to at least get a generic “we haven’t forgotten about you” a bit more often!!

What , like a personal touch ?

Jock Trapped

4th Nov 2019, 11:52

What , like a personal touch ?

Fair enough, perhaps that’s a bit too optimistic!

Jwscud

4th Nov 2019, 19:16

Given that the manpower planning team have been pretty much under emcon internally for weeks, no great surprise I’m afraid.

Granzer291

5th Nov 2019, 18:06

Well, let's hope we hear soon!

thetimesreader84

6th Nov 2019, 06:53

I’ve heard from a pretty good source BA are planning to take 300-450 next year (the high number is what P&P need to make the plan work, the low number is what finance will pay for). 2/3rds of them will be Shorthaul, the balance (about 80-100 depending on which number you use) will be longhaul. Also potentially a resumption of FPP too.

Good luck, swimmers. It’s not all bad when you get here, despite what some might have you believe.

TheAirMission

6th Nov 2019, 07:39

They just accepted a bunch from Oxford academy this week. Interview/Maths/Verbal/Group Ex all last week in one day, acceptance emails out this week.

SissySkinner

6th Nov 2019, 07:59

They just accepted a bunch from Oxford academy this week. Interview/Maths/Verbal/Group Ex all last week in one day, acceptance emails out this week.

Once accepted do they swim in the hold pool the same as DEP?

Diving_Aviator

6th Nov 2019, 08:38

Once accepted do they swim in the hold pool the same as DEP?

This is what has happened with other newly qualified pilots as far as I am aware

GS-Alpha

6th Nov 2019, 10:36

Would they only go SH?
Yes they will only go short haul. As far as I am aware, they have a longer training footprint than DEPs, but are significantly cheaper once they are trained up. They will be in a hold pool just the same, but that will not mean they are at the back of the current queue. Each pilot is recruited from the pool according to how their particular training footprint, and destination fleet requires. It is not a straight forward first into the pool, first out.

SissySkinner

6th Nov 2019, 10:58

ps colleague of mine was offered 787 but now been changed to 777.[/QUOTE]

Thats interesting to hear. When did they get the offer and the change, any ideas?

kookiesandkreme

6th Nov 2019, 20:04

Yes they will only go short haul. As far as I am aware, they have a longer training footprint than DEPs, but are significantly cheaper once they are trained up. They will be in a hold pool just the same, but that will not mean they are at the back of the current queue. Each pilot is recruited from the pool according to how their particular training footprint, and destination fleet requires. It is not a straight forward first into the pool, first out.

Will they go below current swimmers in the hold pool? What’s the case with the l3 tagged cadets, do they slot below current swimmers based on the final assessment dates?

FRYVA

17th Nov 2019, 11:59

Hello folks.

Considering BA at the moment.

Hypothetically... If I was offered and subsequently accepted DEP long haul (not too fussed on fleet as long as it's long haul), and bid for a LGW command on day 1 of joining, how would that work out in theory? (Have plenty of Airbus hours). Am I correct in saying your type freeze wouldn't apply in that instance? And am I also correct in saying that LGW command is c.18 months at the moment? How long is the hold pool at the moment? Any other flaws in my plan? i.e worst case, what happens if you don't get through a A320 command course, do you go back to LH FO?

Many thanks in advance.

SkyRocket10

17th Nov 2019, 13:14

You are engagement frozen for five training years when you start at BA, however this can be reduced to four years for a first command. Unless you are short haul it is very unlikely you will be released from your freeze early. I believe there was a supplementary bid last year due to a shortage of applicants for Gatwick commands and some pilots were released from long haul freezes early. However this is most certainly the exception rather than the rule, and was in part due to the increased flying, which arose from the purchase of Monarch slots. It is unlikely to happen again.

As far as failing a command after returning from long haul. BA are pretty brutal nowadays and my understanding is that you would remain in short haul in the rhs, with the possibility that you could try again when you are no longer cat c (2yrs).

Recruitment is expected to number anything upto 400 next year, however BA recruited huge numbers in 2014/15 and many of these will be unfrozen and will take the majority of the long haul positions. This has not been the case in previous years as recruitment was quieter between 2012-14. My guess is that DEP short haul is more likely going forward.

FRYVA

17th Nov 2019, 13:32

HEJT2015

17th Nov 2019, 18:54

Any news on offers / start dates?

SkyRocket10

17th Nov 2019, 19:14

Many thanks for the quick and thorough reply. Certainly food for thought!

In this instance if you were to be offered SH FO is a relatively quick (crack at a) LGW command still realistic under current conditions? And being junior does the new rostering system allow the ability to live in the North or are you pretty much tied to the S.E?

Again, many thanks.

I think it very unlikely Gatwick commands will go as junior as they have been in the last two years. BA failed to obtain the TC slots and there is very little appetite for any further short haul expansion. With Heathrow commands still up at sub 2800 seniority (approx 10yrs), I would anticipate Gatwick commands returning to around mid 3500 (4-5yrs). This appears to agree with rumours coming out of P&P too.

It is very difficult to commute from Gatwick in the summer with minimum 11 days off. It is
more achievable from Heathrow, but it would seem anyone below about 60% seniority is getting very little control of their initial rosters under JSS and rely heavily on swaps. Perhaps someone who has joined in the last 2 years could confirm better.

Toolonginthisjob

18th Nov 2019, 10:59

An Engagement Freeze is ‘active’ until completion of 5 years of service. However in practice, a 5 year freeze means a bid will not be considered for 4 complete training years. (MoA refers) The training year runs from 1 Jan to 31 Dec. Also bear in mind that if your initial posting is A320 at LGW, any freeze would not prevent you moving from LGW to LHR on the A320 should you wish. It’s a type freeze, not a base freeze.

Jwscud

18th Nov 2019, 13:12

The freeze situation is a bit anomalous. If you joined on the Airbus in the last 3 years and met the command requirements, you could achieve an LGW command (most junior is c4000 on the MSL). As discussed above, this year due to the Monarch slots there were a large number of LGW commands which led to anyone who bid for one in the main bid getting one, including LH DEPs within their engagement freezes, plus a supplementary bid for Airbus rated pilots. The rule set and pay scales aren’t designed for people getting commands within 5 years of joining mainline as it’s historically not happened. Junior LGW Captains are about the lowest paid A320 skippers in the UK.

I agree with posters above it’s unlikely to happen again, and BA can do what they like with you within the ruleset under the engagement freeze. One of the reasons LGW is so junior is that you realistically have to live within 30-40 min drive of Gatwick due to the fact it’s mainly day trips and fairly random rosters.

wiggy

18th Nov 2019, 15:01

... which led to anyone who bid for one in the main bid getting one, including LH DEPs within their engagement freezes, plus a supplementary bid for Airbus rated pilots.

That's worth emphasising... - the company can and occasionally do choose to ignore freezes when it suits them for manpower purposes, but it's not the norm and anyone joining BA or planning on joining BA should assume they will serve in full any appropriate seat/type freeze.

Percula

18th Nov 2019, 15:20

Any news on offers / start dates?
I've heard nothing for a couple of months now.

RexBanner

19th Nov 2019, 07:43

..however BA recruited huge numbers in 2014/15 and many of these will be unfrozen and will take the majority of the long haul positions. This has not been the case in previous years as recruitment was quieter between 2012-14. My guess is that DEP short haul is more likely going forward.

Not just many, everybody recruited in 2015 are now unfrozen provided they haven’t taken their command in the meantime. You’ve got the 2016 lot (300+) with valid bids next year too. However, I doubt the veracity of a blanket “most will be going DEP SH” statement. BA will just probably pull out their training capacity joker and shaft all the unfrozen SH P2s in favour of LH DEP once again.

Morris Ogg

22nd Nov 2019, 08:39

I've heard nothing for a couple of months now.

New email received yesterday, still trying to figure out what the manpower demand is for 2020. Once they have the go ahead and a budget they’ll start, until then I guess we’ll keep swimming!

Does anyone have any more info for example; if the training train will leave the station in Q1 2020 still? or has that ship sailed?

Safety_

22nd Nov 2019, 15:40

Hold Pool update... What do we make out of it?
Nothing before Christmas or 2020 itself?

Biggles88

22nd Nov 2019, 18:14

Hi Ladies and Gents

I was wondering if anyone has heard any recent positive news in the hold pool or are having a similar experience?

Ive been in the pool since the start of March. During my assessment I was told if successful to expect a call very soon as the pool was very low. After a couple of months without hearing anything I contacted them as they said no training was scheduled till the end of summer. Towards the end of July I got a call to expect a start date in Q1 2020 and I would receive that date in September, possibly into October. It’s now end of November and still no date and to be honest the recent emails from them have start to make me wonder whether it will happen at all.

I appreciate all this is subject to change when your in the hold pool, and I’ve heard people were waiting 24 months plus in the pool a couple of years ago. I just feel on the basis of what I have been told from the start it all feels a bit disconcerting. Just wondering if anyone is going through the same?

Serenity

23rd Nov 2019, 06:31

JulietSierra6

23rd Nov 2019, 09:48

Anyone moved from an Orange airline to BA on short haul recently could give me an insight please.
feel free to DM

could anyone please send me some examples of their short haul rosters or how they feel lifestyle and working patterns are.

thanks

There’s a lot of info on Shorthaul rosters posted throughout this thread if you search for it.

LGW & LHR are quite different. LGW is seasonal so very busy in summer, very quiet in the winter months. I’ve averaged about 650-700 hours a year at LGW since I joined. Mainly day trips. Seniority increases pretty quickly (assuming recruitment continues).

LHR is the better option for commuting due to the amount of tours. Work is spread more evenly throughout the year. Don’t underestimate the hassle of operating there day in day out.

About 50% of the FO’s I fly with are ex orange. The majority seem happy with the decision but they unanimously agree it’s not the holy grail they’d hoped for/expected.

Heisenb3rg

24th Nov 2019, 04:52

Movement yesterday and the day before for people going onto 320 and 350. Possibly other fleets too but I've not heard.

boeing89

24th Nov 2019, 07:53

Movement yesterday and the day before for people going onto 320 and 350. Possibly other fleets too but I've not heard.

This sounds promising as I’m waiting for a SH start date. Though last week I received an email saying manpower plan not yet sorted so unable to offer start dates for 2020 at the moment...Anybody else know of any movement?

capt.sparrow

24th Nov 2019, 08:14

Friend of mine got the call yesterday for LHR SH. He is already A320 typed. 3 months in the pool.

Jwscud

24th Nov 2019, 13:10

Hopefully suggests for the rest of us the manpower plan is approaching a publishable form.

Interesting as always to see how close the rumours approach to reality.

RexBanner

24th Nov 2019, 17:49

Hopefully suggests for the rest of us the manpower plan is approaching a publishable form.

Interesting as always to see how close the rumours approach to reality.

doesnt help when you’re pushed 787 manuals on DocuNet by mistake, just to give a bit of false hope then exacerbate the pain of NV when it inevitably comes.

GS-Alpha

24th Nov 2019, 18:46

I know people who have been pleasantly surprised to be given 787 command on type courses in January Rex, so perhap P2 will also have gone more junior than expected. The results will be with us soon enough.

tripplesevven

25th Nov 2019, 02:07

Safety_

25th Nov 2019, 10:20

Any more good news? :D Keep it coming! Us swimmers will hopefully be rescued soon

boeing89

25th Nov 2019, 11:22

Friend of mine got the call yesterday for LHR SH. He is already A320 typed. 3 months in the pool.

Has anyone without a 320 rating been called for a SH start yet? Or should those of us that are not rated expect to swim a little longer?

Safety_

25th Nov 2019, 11:37

Has anyone without a 320 rating been called for a SH start yet? Or should those of us that are not rated expect to swim a little longer?

A320 no call yet

aaa333

25th Nov 2019, 12:53

VinRouge

25th Nov 2019, 17:14

Does Anyone have the Paypoint 34 (PP34) Payscale that new joiners will join on?

What can you expect the starting salary to be on Short Haul and Long Haul?

I know theres a payrise negotiation going on but just interested in the numbers as they currently stand.

Cheers
pilots job network fairly accurate for LH.
https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways

i think the full full scale is on the Balpa website, airline documents > BA MOA (Salary Annexe). Oh, important point, pension is based upon the 24 point payscale, so your employer contributions go up quicker than salary. There are seperate scales for
LGW and LHR SH as well as LH.

Pay settlement is looking at 11.5% over 3 years; there are other odds and sods thrown in that will give you an extra (minor) boost in salary. Stuff like an extra quid per hour Flight Duty Pay. If it’s signed off of course!!!

wiggy

25th Nov 2019, 18:55

pilots job network fairly accurate for LH.
https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways

i think the full full scale is on the Balpa website, airline documents > BA MOA (Salary Annexe).

Yep, the year one FO Base figure ties from "pilotjobs" in ties in pretty much exactly with the BA MOA numbers so I'd suggest that (public) site is giving reasonably accurate info regarding basic pay last time everything was updated.

Banana Joe

25th Nov 2019, 20:42

What's the average experience for direct entry FO with no A320 type rating on the short haul fleet?

Stocious

25th Nov 2019, 23:13

Doubt there is one. If you have the hours requirement and pass the assessment, you're in.

JulietSierra6

26th Nov 2019, 06:42

There are seperate scales for
LGW and LHR SH as well

True, but just to be clear to new joiners there is no difference until 15years in as an FO or 24years Captain. So I wouldn’t worry about it.

aaa333

26th Nov 2019, 12:33

Thanks for that link and help guys!

the link just has PP1 and PP34. If year 1 LH at the current contract is 4300 net, do you know what years 5 and 10 would be as a rough guide?

cheers!

Mooney_tunes

26th Nov 2019, 15:33

Every year it rises by 2500 gross I think

HEJT2015

26th Nov 2019, 19:20

What length of commute is feasible for a junior FO SH LHR?

Northern Monkey

26th Nov 2019, 23:14

What length of commute is feasible for a junior FO SH LHR?

As little as possible. I would say any more than an hour would be painful. Preferably less.

thetimesreader84

27th Nov 2019, 02:17

I do about an hour and a half, and it’s ok. Occasional hotels before earlies / between blocks.

45 mins - 1 hour driving would be perfect, but I like where I live. Couldn’t imagine doing more than 90 mins tops regularly though.

wiggy

27th Nov 2019, 07:12

HEJT

Not sure if by "commute" you mean by road or by flight.

If it's by flight then be aware ( if you weren't from previous posts here ) that the current management regime have got into the habit of on occasions running audits on the commuting patterns of those who travel to/from base by air.

They have paid particular interest to the days and timing of flights and time available for rest at base prior to duty.

Percula

27th Nov 2019, 09:50

Is it feasible to commute from central London using public transport on a junior SH roster at LHR? I don't have a car and wasn't planning on buying one.

Barcli

27th Nov 2019, 09:59

Is it feasible to commute from central London using public transport on a junior SH roster at LHR? I don't have a car and wasn't planning on buying one.

Just use AddisonLee - most others do........

Percula

27th Nov 2019, 10:11

Just use AddisonLee - most others do........
For every morning flight? That must add up.

midnight cruiser

27th Nov 2019, 11:11

It does seem, if the cost and time involved in the commute to Heathrow is factored in, the already underwhelming salary at the bottom rungs, looks even more uncompetitive.

Barcli

27th Nov 2019, 11:30

For every morning flight? That must add up.

Peanuts when you have to " commute" from Chelsea

anson harris

27th Nov 2019, 15:57

Percula

27th Nov 2019, 16:37

VinRouge

27th Nov 2019, 16:43

I'm in Zone 1 so it's normally around an hour. The only issue is that none of the public transport is running in time to make the first SH report (which looks to be around 05:20).

I'll figure it out.
Bath road travelodge circa 32 quid a night with airline discount on the odd trip you get an early for... you can either then catch the airport shuttle for a few quid or have a walk up to the nearest bus stop where the company shuttle operates from. 👍

FACoff

27th Nov 2019, 23:37

It does seem, if the cost and time involved in the commute to Heathrow is factored in, the already underwhelming salary at the bottom rungs, looks even more uncompetitive.

Bear in mind the rungs are about to get a 7.5% increase (along with allowances), but yes, they're still uncompetitive.

For anyone who spends any portion of their journey on the M25: double the non-traffic time and if the result is too unpalatable, I'd suggest you'll probably struggle. It's also worth considering that as a new joiner you'll have absolutely no rostering consistency - they'll gladly transition you from lates to earlies (or visa versa) as many times as they please throughout the month, often with only one "day off" inbetween. It's pretty hideous stuff, particularly from a commuting perspective.

If you have other options with similar pay I'd seriously consider them. If it were me I'd probably see BA short haul more as one of the last resorts now.

rhs4life

27th Nov 2019, 23:50

Does anyone know what the part-time options are in BA? Are they quite easy to get or does one have to wait a few years. Cheers!

wiggy

28th Nov 2019, 14:06

Getting one of the "Aspirational" Part Time contracts ( as in simply wanting like more time off/doing less work) seems recently to have become increasingly difficult, if not almost impossible to get . There are two versions of Aspirational - either 58%, which very roughly speaking a full time month, followed by a part time month in which you need to do enough work to keep recency, or 72% where you do two full time months followed by a part time month....

Getting "Right to Request" (where I think you supposedly need a case for going part time, such as helping to care for dependents) - don't know about availability and I think there are a lot of variations in the pattern so I'll leave somebody more familiar with that to fill in the details.

GS-Alpha

28th Nov 2019, 22:15

Right to request (RTR) part time is either 75% or 50% and works 3 weeks on then one week off, or two weeks on and two weeks off.

Several years ago, it was determined to be illegal to discriminate between someone just wanting more time off for whatever reason, and someone wanting more time off for childcare or what have you. BA have indeed given right to request part time to people who have no childcare or other caring roles, and the reason for the request was given as “I’m working too hard”. Saying that, part time is considered on an order of application basis, and granted or rejected case by case. There is often a long wait of about a year from date of request to actually working part time, in order to fit in around the needs of the business. Requests are often rejected outright, and some requests for RTR part time are granted on a purely temporary basis.

At the moment, you can get back from a trip on the last day of your available days, and the industrial or EASA required days off are within your unpaid part time days off. (The cabin crew have to have their industrial/EASA days off contained within their available to work days for both part time and leave, whereas the pilots have never had that). Pilots do have wrap days attached to leave, which may have been designed to account for that, but they do not currently exist attached to part time days off). BALPA have apparently compared part time rosters and full time rosters and determined that typically, part time pilots are working harder than their adjusted full time equivalents. ie a 75%RTR pilot is doing more than 75% of a full time pilot’s workload. However recent legal findings elsewhere suggest this might need to change.

With all of the above in mind, a request for part time does not require seniority, and your request will not be rejected simply because you are junior. That being said, whether junior or senior, you cannot assume your request will be granted.

Heisenb3rg

4th Dec 2019, 12:59

Might have been asked but i cant find it - anyone know how seniority works with people who start on the same day as you?

Jwscud

4th Dec 2019, 13:06

Numbers are randomly allocated.

It it used to be done by age which in my view is fairer but was apparently discriminatory.

Phantom4

5th Dec 2019, 07:00

Two TC friends recent simulator,one has 350 and the other 777 in February

RexBanner

6th Dec 2019, 11:34

it used to be done by age which in my view is fairer but was apparently discriminatory.

Totally agree Jwscud, now the older people are being discriminated against when they end up junior to someone X years younger than them who will thus be ahead of them in career progression for the entirety of their career however, if the roles were reversed, the younger pilot would have X years not even worrying about the older guy because they’ve retired from the MSL. If it’s a discrimination issue I fail to see how that’s not been raised.

VinRouge

6th Dec 2019, 11:42

Numbers are randomly allocated.

It it used to be done by age which in my view is fairer but was apparently discriminatory.
Names out of a hat. Done by the recruitment team prior to joining. I thought it would be more fun to do it when you arrived day one at Waterside!

kookiesandkreme

6th Dec 2019, 13:57

Names out of a hat. Done by the recruitment team prior to joining. I thought it would be more fun to do it when you arrived day one at Waterside!

Would you be able to know who was higher?

Morris Ogg

6th Dec 2019, 18:05

Two TC friends recent simulator,one has 350 and the other 777 in February

That’s promising! Does anyone else have more updates on start dates? 🏊*♂️

tfly737

6th Dec 2019, 19:27

It's very straightforward to commute from Central London. Heathrow workers get a 50% (pretty sure it's 50% but either way it's heavily discounted) on the Heathrow Express. You've also got the tube and the "TFL Train" which used to be known as Heathrow Connect. Plenty of people do it on short and long haul.

Having commuted from central london for 8 years on shorthaul i'd definitely not recommend it. Really starts to piss you off as for the earliest reports you can't get to T5 unless you either get a taxi or 18,000 buses!

VinRouge

7th Dec 2019, 12:20

Names out of a hat. Done by the recruitment team prior to joining. I thought it would be more fun to do it when you arrived day one at Waterside!

Would you be able to know who was higher?
Yep. You can see everyone’s seniority from pretty much day one.

wiggy

7th Dec 2019, 14:00

Would you be able to know who was higher?

Every month when the bidding cycle starts as part of the published bidding package you get a status list of with the names on your fleet and their seniority number on the Master Senority List, the smaller the number the more senior they are...so yes, you would know.

FWIW you don’t actually see the seniority numbers changing on a monthly basis (due to people leaving), they only get recalculated/reallocated once a year.

kookiesandkreme

7th Dec 2019, 17:39

Every month when the bidding cycle starts as part of the published bidding package you get a status list of with the names on your fleet and their seniority number on the Master Senority List, the smaller the number the more senior they are...so yes, you would know.

FWIW you don’t actually see the seniority numbers changing on a monthly basis (due to people leaving), they only get recalculated/reallocated once a year.

Pretty neat you can actually see nonetheless!

thetimesreader84

7th Dec 2019, 21:19

FWIW you don’t actually see the seniority numbers changing on a monthly basis (due to people leaving), they only get recalculated/reallocated once a year.

The official number (that’s used for fleet changes etc) only gets updated once per year, but there’s a third party app (rhymes with “ShyKid”) that uses the monthly bid pack and some voodoo magic to guesstimate your current actual seniority. I’m led to believe if you’re in the bottom 2/3rds or so (as most of us are) it’s pretty accurate.

wiggy

7th Dec 2019, 22:50

The official number (that’s used for fleet changes etc) only gets updated once per year, but there’s a third party app (rhymes with “ShyKid”) that uses the monthly bid pack and some voodoo magic to guesstimate your current actual seniority. I’m led to believe if you’re in the bottom 2/3rds or so (as most of us are) it’s pretty accurate.

Of course most months it's probably more important to know where roughly you stand on a fleet, rather than where you are on the MSL. Back in the days of paper bid packs it was usually a question of "what page are you on"?

Nowadays I know the app(s) often tell you how many bidders on your fleet are senior to you but when you then hear that Global Constraints has clobbered the roster of somebody who is 97% off the bottom/3% off the top of their list you wonder if even that info is worth having ..

GS-Alpha

7th Dec 2019, 23:43

Global constraints is a particularly brutal part of JSS, and yet was hardly even mentioned during the which bidding program debate.

Panel3

8th Dec 2019, 08:38

The issue isn't so much JSS. It is the inhibitors that the union have placed in the system (almost 80%), which make it almost unworkable. Yes, this gem was BALPA, not BA.

Lordflasheart

8th Dec 2019, 11:10

...
GS-A wrote -

Global constraints is a particularly brutal part of JSS, and yet was hardly even mentioned during the which bidding program debate.

Is 'Global Constraints' a posh name for 'Optimisation' or are they separate processes ?

Doesn't sound very transparent either way.

...

boeing89

8th Dec 2019, 13:36

Is anybody able to shed light on the process of requesting a switch to a LGW base from LHR (SH FO)? When can this be done? And what are the chances of it being accepted?

cycles gladiator

8th Dec 2019, 15:43

Is anybody able to shed light on the process of requesting a switch to a LGW base from LHR (SH FO)? When can this be done? And what are the chances of it being accepted?
Applied last June, request came through this month. Start LGW next month. Very quick and unexpected so soon. Looking forward to it.

MikeAlpha320

9th Dec 2019, 03:30

Got my transfer approved about 2 months after I requested it- moved the next month. Best decision you can make whilst on SH.

Mooney_tunes

9th Dec 2019, 06:51

When do they open requests for fleet and base transfers?

thetimesreader84

9th Dec 2019, 07:42

Got my transfer approved about 2 months after I requested it- moved the next month.

LHR - LGW moves normally get actioned quite quickly. Going the other way can take a bit longer (took me about a year from an OK bid)

Best decision you can make whilst on SH.

Agreed - IF you live within a short commute of Gatwick

kookiesandkreme

9th Dec 2019, 08:10

LHR - LGW moves normally get actioned quite quickly. Going the other way can take a bit longer (took me about a year from an OK bid)

Agreed - IF you live within a short commute of Gatwick

I know it’s been posted before, but what’s the difference in net pay? Just for example someone on year one?

Seosan

9th Dec 2019, 10:04

Sorry to steer away from pay chat for a jiffy; has anyone heard any whispers of when the doors may open again?

RexBanner

9th Dec 2019, 11:34

I know it’s been posted before, but what’s the difference in net pay? Just for example someone on year one?

I can’t really comment on PP1 so maybe my comments are of little value but I haven’t noticed a massive difference to my payslip since moving to Gatwick. I hardly do any daytrips here (none in January) and when I do it’s mainly when called off reserve, I am top 20% here so coming in junior you’re probably not going to be able to achieve that to the same extent unless you know of some good Carmen hacks. So it either is a negligible pay differential or a reasonably sizeable one of several hundreds of pounds dependent on your ability to get the few nightstops that exist here. I can only agree with MikeAlpha320’s comments, Gatwick is a far, far, far nicer place to see out your engagement freeze. Its just a much nicer and more harmonious working environment here and a far lesser proportion of the LHS are “difficult” characters like the ones that exist at LHR. The nightstops are good at LHR (and don’t get me wrong I miss some of them) but in every other respect it’s horrible (IMVHO).

Serenity

10th Dec 2019, 12:33

Is LGW mainly day trips on the 320?

How long is the list looking for commands at LGW these days?

thanks

Heisenb3rg

10th Dec 2019, 12:47

Lordflasheart

10th Dec 2019, 15:19

...
In BA - Part Time seems to mean ......

GS-Alpha wrote -
" .... you can get back from a trip on the last day of your available days, and the industrial or EASA required days off are within your unpaid part time days off."

" ... part time pilots are working harder than their adjusted full time equivalents."

"Global constraints is a particularly brutal part of JSS ...."

Not exactly 'privy' but ..... Our local's resident BA skipper is on part time and suffers from the above mentioned cheap-skate tricks, which seem to have been sneaked through onto their part time contracts.

After each longhaul trip he gets two nights off, that he calls MTBR or 'recovery days.' But when it comes to his part-time days off, he loses his MTBR because they make him start his seven unpaid part-time days off the day after he lands back at London.

So he isn't paid for two days of righteous work (his MTBR) which should be on Company Time and Money, that follows his trip on CTM, because those two days are rostered as his unpaid part-time days off instead. He doesn't think he loses any money but he becomes available for two more days work each month than his (adjusted) full time mates.

He says 'JSS global constraints' then shuffles his initial roster to cover any left-over work and to ensure his two days extra availability is not squandered. He says his part-time roster usually looks and feels like he's still working full time.

What really peeves him off is that his Virgin mates who are part-time have so far managed to fend off this cheating. They get all their entitled days off in full - MTBR and Part Time. You'd think Balpa-BA and Balpa-Virgin would get their part-time heads together. Let's hope their managements don't do the same.

He calls it Part Time (Chipped) Beef - aka - 'S*** on a (BA) Shingle.' That's not a reference to his crew meal BTW; it's apparently a popular culinary delicacy from his USAF exchange days.

...

Underdog

10th Dec 2019, 17:44

The issue isn't so much JSS. It is the inhibitors that the union have placed in the system (almost 80%), which make it almost unworkable. Yes, this gem was BALPA, not BA.

That is an urban myth - and not wholly accurate - in fact, not accurate at all. Just like a lot of the internet, if someone repeats something often enough, it becomes truth - no matter how wrong it is. It shows a basic lack of understanding on what the inhibitors do.

The main reason JSS doesn't work well at BA (on that we do agree), is we are, as we were under bid-line, massively under-established, with CAP far too high to enjoy a decent home life, unless on a part-time contract.

Underdog

10th Dec 2019, 17:58

If anyone if privy to knowledge of part time work at BA, could you pm me? Specifically interested in how many extra days off per month you see Vs. the obvious cut in salary, and if it’s worth it or not! Cheers!

If you are junior - then Part-Time is the only way to have a semblance of family life - it will (if on a Right To Request contract) guarantee you a weekend at home once a month.

In theory, you will work (on a 75% contract) just 75% as hard as a full-timer - but that's not quite true, as anyone senior on a fleet, can pretty much write their own roster and effectively spend as little, or less, time at work than a junior guy on a 75% roster. (Legal action is being considered by a band of RTR part-timers over this - whether that amounts to anything is anyone's guess)!

Moving to a 75% contract costs around a 16% reduction in take-home salary, if paying UK tax - so from that point of view, is well worth it.

....and then there's JSS and the MBTR (Minimum Base TurnRound) thing mentioned above, where the system can use your part-time (unpaid) days to satisfy the legal rest requirements - which other airlines, and even our cabin crew on part-time contracts, don't suffer from!

75% RTR (1 week off in 4) is just one of 4 major part-time contracts; the others being 50% RTR (2 weeks off in 4), 72% APTW (Aspirational Part Time Working) - 1 month off every 3 (a small amount of work has to be done within your month 'off' to satisfy recency etc.), and 58% APTW (month on, month off). There are a couple of minor PT options for those that have been refused access to one of the major contracts - one of which is 85%, but no fixed days off - and one other that I can't remember. I don't know anyone that has taken up these minor versions, though I guess someone must have by now!

Heisenb3rg

11th Dec 2019, 09:01

If you are junior - then Part-Time is the only way to have a semblance of family life - it will (if on a Right To Request contract) guarantee you a weekend at home once a month.

In theory, you will work (on a 75% contract) just 75% as hard as a full-timer - but that's not quite true, as anyone senior on a fleet, can pretty much write their own roster and effectively spend as little, or less, time at work than a junior guy on a 75% roster. (Legal action is being considered by a band of RTR part-timers over this - whether that amounts to anything is anyone's guess)!

Moving to a 75% contract costs around a 16% reduction in take-home salary, if paying UK tax - so from that point of view, is well worth it.

....and then there's JSS and the MBTR (Minimum Base TurnRound) thing mentioned above, where the system can use your part-time (unpaid) days to satisfy the legal rest requirements - which other airlines, and even our cabin crew on part-time contracts, don't suffer from!

75% RTR (1 week off in 4) is just one of 4 major part-time contracts; the others being 50% RTR (2 weeks off in 4), 72% APTW (Aspirational Part Time Working) - 1 month off every 3 (a small amount of work has to be done within your month 'off' to satisfy recency etc.), and 58% APTW (month on, month off). There are a couple of minor PT options for those that have been refused access to one of the major contracts - one of which is 85%, but no fixed days off - and one other that I can't remember. I don't know anyone that has taken up these minor versions, though I guess someone must have by now!

thanks for this! 75% RTR possibly sounding like it could be desirable to ensure some certainty that you’re not away from home every day of every month, with the knowledge that you’re likely working harder than you should be on the day on...

in terms of RTR - are these accepted often or is it quite hard to come by? I presume you need a fairly good reason, such as child care / elderly parents needing care etc ...

back to Boeing

11th Dec 2019, 09:40

thanks for this! 75% RTR possibly sounding like it could be desirable to ensure some certainty that you’re not away from home every day of every month, with the knowledge that you’re likely working harder than you should be on the day on...

in terms of RTR - are these accepted often or is it quite hard to come by? I presume you need a fairly good reason, such as child care / elderly parents needing care etc ...

The law around right to request changed a few years ago. You don’t need a reason anymore to request part time working. But right to request by employee is also right to refuse by employer.

GS-Alpha

11th Dec 2019, 10:14

Heisenb3rg, take a look at my post #6672 of this thread.

Twiglet1

11th Dec 2019, 10:42

The law around right to request changed a few years ago. You don’t need a reason anymore to request part time working. But right to request by employee is also right to refuse by employer.
Part Time is a great option to offer as it really motivates crews (well some do still want a part time contract on full pay). But you've also got to keep the manpower up as if not the full timers start taking a hit - its a fine divide. The Management need to buy into it also as the costs are normally higher.

RexBanner

11th Dec 2019, 12:32

But right to request by employee is also right to refuse by employer.

well not really, the company can continue to deny applications (at the moment on the basis of crewing levels) but it’s important to bear in mind that ultimately they are legally bound to demonstrate they are providing opportunities for part time working. They are hardly demonstrating compliance with the law if the majority of requests are getting turned down. So sooner or later that will have to change and the floodgates will probably open at the start of the next downturn.

In answer to the question about the nature of work in LGW yes it’s mainly daytrips. There’s only three nightstop destinations in Gatwick: Edinburgh, Glasgow and Jersey. Hence the scope for additional pay in terms of time away from base is reduced compared with LHR.

Jason Derulo

11th Dec 2019, 14:44

Hello, a little guidance please. If I had received an offer and signed the contract, but then decided that I didn't want to join BA due to my current employer making a better offer. Other than burning all bridges with BA are there any other contractual implications that could bite me?

Serenity

12th Dec 2019, 19:30

Following, Just about to do the same!!
offer from BA is just not good enough to leave current employer, a 5/4 roster home every night is pricelsss.
also not over 700hrs in the past year.
I fear the future is not similar in BA.

capt.sparrow

12th Dec 2019, 22:54

GS-Alpha

13th Dec 2019, 06:47

Out of curiosity, were there unexpected bits of the contract that didn't appeal, or was it the base/fleet offer? Just trying to guage reasons as it's such a mission to get through to an offer stage, and then have to consider turning it down.
My money is on the two J s
JSS + Juniority
It is no fun being endlessly beaten by the global constraints stick month after month.

Jason Derulo

13th Dec 2019, 11:12

Out of curiosity, were there unexpected bits of the contract that didn't appeal, or was it the base/fleet offer? Just trying to guage reasons as it's such a mission to get through to an offer stage, and then have to consider turning it down.
Contract etc all fine and I know what I was letting myself in for. BA was a backup due to uncertainty at current workplace, that uncertainty has nearly disappeared and the quality of life definitely outweighs what I could expect at BA.

The reason for the original post: The uncertainty should be completely gone within the next 10 days, is it within my rights to sign contract (to keep the automated system happy) and then remove myself from the process?

bex88

13th Dec 2019, 14:33

BA will not blink an eye lid. You will not have a black mark against you. I would thank them for the opportunity and say your decision is based on the needs of your family and a change in circumstances at your current employer.

Hell they asked me why I wanted to leave my previous employer to which I replied “I don’t I am very happy there”

If they ask why you came to that decision by all means tell them what the factors were. Let’s face it they will understand and probably already know. I know someone who turned the offer down, explained why and apologised for the late notice. BA wished them the best of luck and left the door open in the future.

Good luck with your decision. BA is not for everyone, it’s not as good as it was but it is not so bad that I have left either.

Jason Derulo

13th Dec 2019, 15:50

Thanks bex, just what I was after.

The Foss

13th Dec 2019, 19:31

You’ll have no issues, they’d rather that than put you through type rating / line training only for you to give your notice straight away (no bond at BA)

capt.sparrow

19th Dec 2019, 18:29

Just had a recruitment email to say A320 DEP is open again. Guess that means good news for us still paddling?!

Saab0409

20th Dec 2019, 06:40

Bid results are out yesterday. Nothing too shocking but the plan is for just shy of 300 new entrants in 2020. Merry Xmas to those in the pool waiting a start date.

Right Engine

20th Dec 2019, 13:32

Also worth noting the Annual Bid for fleet/position has commands at both LGW/LHR on the A320 for DEP’s (with enough hours) with only 1 year in the company. Being at the bottom of JSS is that unpalatable that this anomaly exists. If, however, you see lucrative positions globally that require say 1000 hours as P1, BA has become a great stepping stone for individuals with that in mind.

RexBanner

20th Dec 2019, 15:51

No JSS in Gatwick thankfully. Carmen is actually far kinder to the junior pilots here.

I’ve said it before but it’s a better base for SH than Heathrow unless you live the wrong side of the M25 in which case I can see how it’s a bit of a drag.

HEJT2015

20th Dec 2019, 16:03

Do you maintain your seniority if you transfer between LGW & LHR?

bex88

20th Dec 2019, 16:26

Yes you keep your seniority

GS-Alpha

22nd Dec 2019, 10:01

GS-Alpha

22nd Dec 2019, 10:10

It looks like about 850 pilots from the bottom is approximately 5 years in, as that is where the engagement freeze appears to end.

Vwon

22nd Dec 2019, 10:48

I have just had a quick look through the PRIAM results, and I do not see any short haul command courses for anyone with a year or even two years of seniority. Or am I reading it incorrectly? I make the most junior 320 LHR pilot nearly 700 places from the bottom of the list, and I doubt they will be doing their course until about this time next year, probably after about 4 years as an FO? LGW commands are a bit more junior but still nearly 450 places from the bottom, so the course will be nearly 3 years after joining.

I know type freezes have been talked about to death on here, but one thing I'm not sure about is; if you join on a LH fleet and bid for a LGW 320 command, are you still frozen for those first 5 years? I assume - and please correct me if I'm wrong - if there aren't enough junior bids to fill the SH P1 requirements then freeze waivers would come into force(?) All hypothetical.. I'm sure there's plenty of junior P1 bids, just wondering how it works.

GS-Alpha

22nd Dec 2019, 11:01

I know type freezes have been talked about to death on here, but one thing I'm not sure about is; if you join on a LH fleet and bid for a LGW 320 command, are you still frozen for those first 5 years? I assume - and please correct me if I'm wrong - if there aren't enough junior bids to fill the SH P1 requirements then freeze waivers would come into force(?) All hypothetical.. I'm sure there's plenty of junior P1 bids, just wondering how it works.
Basically, BA can do what they like with you during your first 5 years. Ordinarily they want to do what is cheapest, so they do not allow any moves from whatever fleet you are on during that time period. You still have the opportunity to bid for your fleet aspirations, and BA will consider them if it suits them. Normally, the only thing that suits them is a move to a short haul command where there are often insufficient more senior bidders.

An example where things might be different this year, is the 747 where they have stated the fleet may be in surplus towards the end of 2020. A new recruit on the 747 could therefore see themselves directed off the fleet to anywhere else (highly unlikely to be a command position), if there are insufficient more senior volunteers. My gut feeling is that 2020 will see sufficient volunteers, but 2021 may be a different story.

wiggy

22nd Dec 2019, 11:05

I have just had a quick look through the PRIAM results, and I do not see any short haul command courses for anyone with a year or even two years of seniority. Or am I reading it incorrectly?

It's not the easiest document to read but I've just had a very quick look at it myself and I think that's a reasonable conclusion.

There are folks below the lucky winner who have valid bids so there's a chance there might be some movement lower down when the plan goes through it's multiple iterations over the year.

I think way back we discussed the probability that the less than one or two year seniority commands that did happen were likely to be a bit of a black swan event.

GS-Alpha

22nd Dec 2019, 13:29

We did indeed wiggy. I was responding to this a couple of posts up, which I believe to be misleading information.
Also worth noting the Annual Bid for fleet/position has commands at both LGW/LHR on the A320 for DEP’s (with enough hours) with only 1 year in the company.

Banana Joe

22nd Dec 2019, 16:54

How many pilots are they looking for on the A320 fleet?

thetimesreader84

22nd Dec 2019, 18:19

How many pilots are they looking for on the A320 fleet?

The trainers have been told (at least according to the one I was in the sim with, before PRIAM day) to “expect about 250 Airbus recruits over the year, (to include some FPP / White Tail).

Not sure if that answers your question, but it might give an indication of scale.

Banana Joe

22nd Dec 2019, 19:19

Pardon my ignorance, what is PRIAM and what does it stand for?
I am also trying to understand what JSS is - whatever it is, nobody seems to like it:confused:

Jwscud

22nd Dec 2019, 20:14

Last year (bid 2018 for this year’s training) if you joined on the A320 with the required hours you could get a command after the minimum one year in the company. Long haul engagement freezes were waived for about 10 or so pilots bidding for Gatwick commands. This year the most junior Heathrow 320 command in 2020 is about 3 and a half years in the company at the point of the bid results but will be unfrozen for command. The pre command freeze is 4 years so effectively lops a year off your engagement freeze if bidding for an available command.

Current BA policy seems to be that seniority doesn’t apply for commands during the engagement freeze - if you are on the 320 and meet the requirements you will get a right to left ahead of senior but non-rated bidders. This is a consequence of the fact the agreement never anticipated such junior mainline commands.

Bottom line, although relatively junior commands are available, bank on 4-5 years if you want LGW and up to double that for LHR. Don’t come here if you have your heart set on a quick upgrade as disappointment is likely to be coming your way.

wiggy

22nd Dec 2019, 20:41

Pardon my ignorance, what is PRIAM and what does it stand for?
I am also trying to understand what JSS is - whatever it is, nobody seems to like it:confused:

Simple simple explanation:

PRIAM (Greek god, I'm sure there's also some logic as to the use of that name/acronym): is the system that handles the annual bids for fleet and seat changes... Every year there's a roughly month long bidding window for type/seat changes and having done their bids pilots wait on tenterhooks for several months waiting for the system output to see if they are in with a chance of a seat/fleet change during the upcoming training year.

JSS - Jeppesen Strict Seniority bidding system...that's the system that you interface with every month to bid for your next month's roster. It came into use about ? a year back as a replacement for the long established Bidline monthly bidding system and so far does not seem to be really working as advertised. It is certainly producing some nasty rosters and also reduced choice for a lot of people, which is why a lot of pilots don't like it.

HTH

Banana Joe

22nd Dec 2019, 21:41

Thanks for the explanation!

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 07:14

The trainers have been told (at least according to the one I was in the sim with, before PRIAM day) to “expect about 250 Airbus recruits over the year”

Take that with a pinch of salt. There aren’t that many pilots on the Airbus ahead of me and I’m not getting a move in 2020. Having said that we are short in the RHS of the Airbus, more so Heathrow than Gatwick. I would guess from my time up the road that the compliment in LHR is at least 40 pilots shy if not more.

WonderBus

23rd Dec 2019, 08:00

Take that with a pinch of salt. There aren’t that many pilots on the Airbus ahead of me and I’m not getting a move in 2020. Having said that we are short in the RHS of the Airbus, more so Heathrow than Gatwick. I would guess from my time up the road that the compliment in LHR is at least 40 pilots shy if not more.

I think there’ll be a fair few new 320 pilots needed at LHR, I think almost every unfrozen pilot got their bid. I’m 40% and I’ve got a course for next year, so there’ll need to be a fair few pilot to fill in. BA are opening up 320 specific recruitment this year as well I believe.

GS-Alpha

23rd Dec 2019, 08:02

Take that with a pinch of salt. There aren’t that many pilots on the Airbus ahead of me and I’m not getting a move in 2020. Having said that we are short in the RHS of the Airbus, more so Heathrow than Gatwick. I would guess from my time up the road that the compliment in LHR is at least 40 pilots shy if not more.
I count just over 100 successful internal moves away from A320 FO positions, either to long haul fleets or commands on type. Then there will be age and ill health retirements, resignations due to people realising BA is not for them, people wanting part time, and you yourself say they are at least 40 FO positions short at Heathrow. A minimum requirement of 200 new A320 FOs would be very easy to reach. 250 is therefore probably not a bad estimate for trainers to have been told.

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 08:13

Yeah but that makes 250 total positions, not 250 Airbus positions, surely? If 100 Airbus FOs move then that’s 100 to replace (or 140 if you include the 40 they are short of) or am I missing something?

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 08:18

I’m 40% and I’ve got a course for next year

Im 45% and haven’t :{

Not too much longer now though hopefully, especially as there’s more LH hulls arriving in 2021.

midnight cruiser

23rd Dec 2019, 08:18

Will the recruits all be from flying school? I can't see even experienced turboprop FOs being attracted to a move to London to have years of the dregs of the roster and not even have the prospect of quick command. A few from cityflyer LCY I guess.

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 08:22

The upside is it moves quickly (well at the moment anyway) on the Airbus P2 List and roster satisfaction will improve faster (if it’s indeed possible to be satisfied by a JSS roster). Not anywhere near as fast moving at the bottom of the Long Haul fleets.

GS-Alpha

23rd Dec 2019, 08:23

140 would require nobody leaving due sickness on short haul, nobody retiring before 65 on short haul (yes they will most likely retire from the LHS, but they will need replacing in addition to the planned for figures), nobody resigning from short haul because BA was not for them. It also requires that BA do not tend to need more pilots in the Summer than they need in the Winter. Typically we have low CAPs in the Winter and high in the Summer. If you are saying we are 40 FOs short now, then we are likely 100 short for the peak Summer period.

GS-Alpha

23rd Dec 2019, 08:29

I presume you are still within your engagement freeze Rex? I know you were hoping for the 787, but unfortunately long haul is popular so there is no need to release people from a freeze.

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 08:30

GS-Alpha I know what you’re saying but that just relates to an overall volume of pilots to be replaced company wide. The post I was replying to said 250 Airbus FOs to be trained this year. If you’re talking about an individual fleet then surely the replacements will be on a one for one basis (seeing as virtually no one bids for P32L/X internally) so if 100 pilots move seat from the Airbus this year, plus we’re 40 pilots shy then that’s a total of 140 Airbus Pilots to replace whilst the overall requirement for pilots company wide remains at around 250.

Anyway all this is a moot point for prospective joiners because the fundamental crux of it is that if you’re looking to join BA on the Airbus your chances are good right now.

Yes to the engagement freeze, I started right at the beginning of 2016. A couple of months earlier I could have been in luck.

GS-Alpha

23rd Dec 2019, 08:35

Except that the overall need for pilots company wide has been published by the department, as just under 300 pilots. I personally think 250 is probably a rounded up figure by trainers who know that the company often changes the plan and demands more of them. I can easily see the figure being above 200, and 250 should not be taken with a pinch of salt.

GS-Alpha

23rd Dec 2019, 09:35

Yes to the engagement freeze, I started right at the beginning of 2016. A couple of months earlier I could have been in luck.

I know it is disappointing not to get that move you were hoping for, and some lucky people do occasionally get released from their freeze when needs must, but unfortunately it is not the norm. With a super high training requirement on short haul already, it is unsurprising that they are not adding to it by releasing more A320 FOs than the agreements dictate.

A320LGW

23rd Dec 2019, 10:36

bex88

23rd Dec 2019, 11:20

Play the game. Bang in the application and pic up some overtime if you can

A320LGW

23rd Dec 2019, 11:34

Play the game. Bang in the application and pic up some overtime if you can

cheers and do you reckon i'm ok to apply right now or is it best to wait until i've reached the 100 sectors before sending it in?

byrondaf

23rd Dec 2019, 11:50

apply and then by the time you get to interview etc you'll have the hours. bingo.

A320LGW

23rd Dec 2019, 12:25

The Blu Riband

23rd Dec 2019, 12:29

Banana Joe

23rd Dec 2019, 12:47

What are the actual chances of being successful without having 500hrs? Based on my current roster I will just about make the 100 sector requirement around about the time of the application closing date
Just apply. I fly cargo and have about 350 hours on the 737, but way in excess of 100 sectors. It's worth a try and free of charge!:}

wiggy

23rd Dec 2019, 13:28

PRIAM - an explanation of the name....

Thanks fo the added info..I knew there was a link with Cassandra in there somewhere..

BA,....the company that gives it computer programs names and it's pilots 5 letter Codes...:}

Twiglet1

23rd Dec 2019, 16:20

Thanks fo the added info..I knew there was a link with Cassandra in there somewhere..

BA,....the company that gives it computer programs names and it's pilots 5 letter Codes...:}

If it was Cassandra then surely someone should have picked Rodney?

RexBanner

23rd Dec 2019, 19:33

Or Dave

(I’ll get my coat)

TitanCadetScheme

24th Dec 2019, 07:30

Before I pull the Trigger.

Thegreenmachine

24th Dec 2019, 11:57

fair enough, just wondered to what extent they may have reflected back as to what i had at the precise moment i filed the application because i'm required to sign off that i have the 100 sectors right this moment, will send it so!

Some terrible advice by others here. Be careful signing the application declaration saying you have xxx hours/sectors when you do not.

MostAnnoying

24th Dec 2019, 15:20

Hi all, barging in here with a few questions.
Have applied for the FO A320 position. Applied on 21/12 and got my invitation this morning.

First round, what can I expect? They sent me some "practice" things, is that honestly what can be expected on the tests? And how eager are they to recruit folks with just 500 hours? I've got 2k hours myself but on the B737.

What is the time frame between First Round and Second Round of assessment?

And also, any BA 320 pilots here who mind sharing their experience within BA. Coming from Ryanair, i'm used to a fair share of being pushed around.

Thanks in advance and Merry Christmas.

Phantom4

25th Dec 2019, 07:31

A320!GW
RTFQ
Spend at least five days on the initial application and run it past friends as to its authenticity
HR do not like people winging it.

Juan Tugoh

25th Dec 2019, 21:03

PRIAM - an explanation of the name

The previous software system was named CASSANDRA. In Greek mythology she was able to foresee the future (but no-one ever believed her) so was an aptly named program for BA's fleet bidding and moves. PRIAM was her father and is the successor.

Nearly right. PRIAM was the program that determined the postings and promotions requirement. The CASSANDRA run was the program output.

PRIAM was the king of Troy whose daughter, CASSANDRA, was a priestess gifted with the ability to foresee the future but was cursed, by the gods, such that no one would ever believe her prophecy.

The system that replaced PRIAM is CRYSTAL, but due to laziness and usage, PRIAM has become the accepted usage for all PnP processes, both bid and output.

Mrglass

27th Dec 2019, 16:38

Any calls for Q2 start dates?

If so - what was your hold pool entry date and your new class date (approx).

Thanks

FRYVA

29th Dec 2019, 15:29

Hello folks,

Starting soon A320 LHR and looking forward to it.

Couple of quick questions, if I may...

-Am assuming I will start on the newly ratified £63,xxx DEP scale (as per PPJN) not the £58,xxx I signed electronically a month or so back?
-Any top tips for getting the “best” commutable rosters? (I am looking purely to minimise total commuting time and expenses on my own $ and have no issues with working long days/all weekends/deep nights/loads of sectors etc)
-Have read the thread fully but did we find a conclusive answer to exactly how junior SH LHS is running at the moment?
-Likelihood of getting LH inside initial engagement freeze? And does a rating on a BA LH type “help” or is it purely seniority?
-Any idea how long until one could realistically expect to achieve 50% working pattern?
-Any other top tips?

Many thanks!

Heisenb3rg

29th Dec 2019, 15:50

If anyone is currently at BA and knows anything about pensions (specifically the LTA, the pension tax relief taper, and company contributions once you’ve hit the LTA) could you send me a private message? I’ve got a few questions!

bex88

29th Dec 2019, 16:21

FRYVA: first off congratulations and welcome

LH inside of your engagement freeze is very very rare for SH to LH.
Commuting roster: It’s going to be tough to have any control for a good year or more. It all depends how many join under you. My advice would be to bid for 2-5 day tours as H++. You should be able to easily get 2 day 6 tours but you may need to do some trading or swapping with other pilots.

Pay, you will be on the same as everyone so the new rate effective 1st Jan.

Aspirational part time is currently not available. Right to request is generally 2 years, put your request in ASAP and see what happens. You can always decline it.

Commands, someone will correct me as I did not pay much attention to the bids but I thing LHR commands were around 7-8 years. Gatwick a little less. The general trend is returning towards 10-12 years for SH, 20...ish for LH.

Advice. Find a local LHR hang out. You will need it for reserve if more than 2 hours away and for the odd night stop at LHR. Crew will help you out on that one with all the tricks.

Buy us yourself a reusable cup because Pret give you 50p off with each coffee ;)

Thegreenmachine

29th Dec 2019, 17:50

FRYVA
If you’re happy to do 4 sector days and nights/ very earlies then you will find swapping your roster with others relatively easy.

I’m only a year in and although I can’t choose where I go or usually when, I can mould a rough working pattern which suits family life. Expect reserve 4 times a year though which is absolutely awful for commuting, awful in general if you ask me but that’s another story.

LGW commands look about 3-4yrs seniority, as bex says, LHR fair bit more 6+yrs.

Cant add much else. Welcome aboard.

RexBanner

29th Dec 2019, 19:04

The reserve thing is important to note, especially as a commuter. As a new joiner you start on the bare minimum reserve points, not on the fleet average reserve points like you do when moving fleets. So, although you were led to believe one reserve period per year during the hard sell on the interview day, when joining the company you do an inordinate amount of reserve. As the green machine has said, at least four a year and worst case is every other month.

Falling_Penguin

30th Dec 2019, 08:03

For reserve, how do commuters manage it? Is it necessary to obtain short term accommodation for an entire month in the city?

wiggy

30th Dec 2019, 08:25

For reserve, how do commuters manage it? Is it necessary to obtain short term accommodation for an entire month in the city?

That’s a realistic assumption, though it’s “only” for three weeks not a month, since the (usually) first 7 days of 28 day reserve block are fixed days off.

You might be able to swing some reserve from home if you are blessed with late evening transport links to LHR, since on a standard reserve day you are only contactable in the evening from 1700-2000 U.K. time for work beginning (potentially early) the next day..however the reality is that on most days you don’t get assigned a trip you will be assigned Home standby ( long chunks of the day on 2 hours notice) and in shorthaul there is also standby at the airport.

Falling_Penguin

30th Dec 2019, 09:44

wiggy

30th Dec 2019, 10:12

Thanks Wiggy. It seems a shorthaul contract would require relocating to the South of England within car-commuting distance. I am struggling to see how it would be possible to be SH and commute from farther away, especially with the airport standby requirement in there.

Is it fair to assume that being junior on the longhaul fleet would bring similar issues? I have read about junior LH pilots doing 5 trips away a month with 2-3 days between each; back-to-backs eradicated under EASA. `The difference in housing / mortgage fees would be less than the amount required for commuting + hotels at that rate.

The realities of a short haul commute etc is probably best left to someone who works that "aisle" :ooh:

Workload on Long Haul is a "hot" discussion issue ATM, for the reasons you describe....lots of low credit, minimum turn trips on some fleets. There are some nasty rosters out there and for completeness I'd say it's not all of it is low hours, 2-3 day trips either, I've flown with a couple of P'2 s this month whose December rosters were fairly well loaded up with Long Range work with minimum turn round taking them (involuntarily) well over the CAP target..

"Back to backs" (in the commonly accepted sense of the term) are still possible under EASA/at BA/under JSS, either by careful selection of the first trip of a pair to avoid anything requiring more than 1 nights rest post the duty (so for example you try and generate a pair of trips which has a TLV or e.g. an African trip as the first element), plus there are a handful of selected trip pairs on some fleets involving the Eastern seaboard where if you get a tagged trip pair the company will provide accomodation, which then to allows a back to back under EASA. That's the theory, the problem is using JSS to actually construct such a bid, and secondly having the seniority to get such a bid awarded....

(Edit to add: Another hot topic is the amount of reserve a new joiner ends up doing....expect to be clobbered frequently in your first year...)

RexBanner

30th Dec 2019, 10:13

Falling Penguin just to give you my example on Short Haul. I commute from Jersey and was at Heathrow for three years. Reserve was a pain but I was fortunate that my landlady in Horley from my days commuting in easyJet (Gatwick) had another spare room which she would rent to me for three weeks provided I gave her enough notice. Then, because of the early reports and the prohibitive cost of paying for a national express coach every time I was called, I rented a car for three weeks, which was usually pretty cheap. I used rentalcars.com which usually directed you to Interrent (the “low cost” offshoot of Europcar) which was pretty cheap.

I think the best price I got was £128 for 21 days of rental (cheaper and less risky than bringing my car over on the boat). The reason it’s so cheap is because they nickel and dime you with extra charges, like an extortionate rate for extra miles above the 90 miles a day they give you. 90 miles was fine for a Gatwick-Heathrow return trip so even if you were called every day (which doesn’t happen) you’ve still got a fair few miles to use the car for other things. In summary, it’s not easy and it’s a bit of a pain but that first year or so of doing reserve a lot will get expensive.

Long Haul I doubt you’d have to rent a car as long as you were staying in striking range of Gatwick or Heathrow as you could just National Express coach it from Gatwick or better if you’re staying around Heathrow just hop on the bus. No early reports and much fewer (I would imagine) last minute two hour call outs, which even then is still achievable from Gatters with the frequency of coaches up to Heathrow every day.

wiggy

30th Dec 2019, 10:50

Long Haul I doubt you’d have to rent a car as long as you were staying in striking range of Gatwick or Heathrow as you could just National Express coach it from Gatwick or better if you’re staying around Heathrow just hop on the bus. No early reports and much fewer (I would imagine) last minute two hour call outs, which even then is still achievable from Gatters with the frequency of coaches up to Heathrow every day.

Just for info/completeness for Falling Penguin....

Longhaul reports start at about 0630 ..(I think the earliest currently is a 0635 report for a two day TLV).

I've been called out many a time from Standby at the two hour point, and if the **** hits the fan and somebody goes sick after report - it happens, then it's not unusual for ops to ask .." err...we know you are on two hours but how quickly can you get here..."..It may suit you to amble in from your accomodation fairly quickly but the contractural agreement for LHR is two hours warning...

FWIW for LHR based pilots, including everybody on the T7, the Home Standby (HSB) "two hour to car park rule" only applies for an LHR report..if as a LHR based Long Haul pilot you get called from HSB to do a LGW trip you are simply required to get to LGW as soon as possible..

When I'm on reserve I use one of the LHR Bath Road B and Bs - if I get called for LGW I use the coach...I've never rented a car for reserve.

Falling_Penguin

30th Dec 2019, 11:31

Great information - thanks to all. :ok:

RexBanner

30th Dec 2019, 11:57

Just for info/completeness for Falling Penguin....

Longhaul reports start at about 0630 ..(I think the earliest currently is a 0635 report for a two day TLV).

Its easy to tell you’re Long Haul and I’m Short Haul, Wiggy because our definitions of an early report are very different! :ok:

wiggy

30th Dec 2019, 12:23

Its easy to tell you’re Long Haul and I’m Short Haul, Wiggy because our definitions of an early report are very different! :ok:

That'll teach me for not saying "at base" ... :}

I see your point and raise you the more than a few really horrible just after midnight/very early AM UTC reports kicking around in Longhaul that don't happen in the full glare of CRC...:E :E .....hence all those uniformed individuals getting off the crew buses at the crew car parks at LHR/LGW at zero dark 30 when many of you fine folk are heading into work....:ok:

RexBanner

30th Dec 2019, 12:29

Fair point!

(the crux of my point about the earlies was really just to say that there’s no frequency of coaches from Gatwick to Heathrow from dead of night almost until about 06:30 or so for the early Heathrow reports but Falling Penguin need not even stay near Gatwick it’s just what I used to do for ease of getting home).

Gingerbread Man

31st Dec 2019, 09:32

Northern Monkey

31st Dec 2019, 10:05

I appreciate no one has a crystal ball, but is it likely that BA will continue to recruit in the numbers they have done for the last five years? I can think of reasons why recruitment would increase in the way it has done (retirements, leavers, part time, expansion), but have trouble expecting that any of those would lead to a sustained intake of ~200 DEPs per year.

I’ve probably not considered something obvious, and I don’t have access to the numbers for this stuff, but there seems to be quite a lot of potential for new joiners to sit close to the bottom of the list for a long time.

Broadly speaking over the next decade the number of retirements and part time requests are likely to drive substantial recruitment. Add to that the circa 1% of medical retirements each year and those leaving from the bottom of the list for myriad reasons and I can't see recruitment slowing down that much. There may be blips in line with the economic atmosphere of course.

GS-Alpha

31st Dec 2019, 10:41

I appreciate no one has a crystal ball, but is it likely that BA will continue to recruit in the numbers they have done for the last five years? I can think of reasons why recruitment would increase in the way it has done (retirements, leavers, part time, expansion), but have trouble expecting that any of those would lead to a sustained intake of ~200 DEPs per year.

I’ve probably not considered something obvious, and I don’t have access to the numbers for this stuff, but there seems to be quite a lot of potential for new joiners to sit close to the bottom of the list for a long time.
~200 pilots a year does seem like a lot to sustain but it is actually only 5% of the workforce, which doesn’t seem that difficult to imagine with a bit of expansion, retirement, demand for part time, and recently recruited pilots deciding BA isn’t quite what they expected.

wiggy

31st Dec 2019, 10:50

Broadly speaking over the next decade the number of retirements and part time requests are likely to drive substantial recruitment.

However nobody got granted a transfer onto a Aspirational Part Time as a result of the latest run ,( due to pressures on recruitment and training,) and it will be interesting to see how many bids for Right to Request get approved given the current climate.

One look at the relevant place on Yammer :ooh: shows that a few of the late 1980’s DEPs are starting to shuffle off, plus rumours of resignations from the bottom of the list so who knows what the requirement will be? ..I suspect there will be a few hundred a year for the foreseeable future, Finance allowing. In terms of joining BA and then moving rapidly up the seniority list it is worth bearing in mind that although the senior old g**** are thinning out there are a lot of the early Cadets (late 80 entry dates onwards) with maybe a decade to go sitting at or near the top of the lists...

kookiesandkreme

31st Dec 2019, 17:58

Hi everyone,

quick question - as a new joiner with low seniority at Heathrow, how hard would it be to get mainly day trips? I don’t mind doing 4 sector days etc (if these exist) but I live nearby and don’t commute as such.

Thanks

Thegreenmachine

31st Dec 2019, 23:56

If you accept (which you won’t have much choice in anyway) the low credit stuff, ie “short” day trips NCE, TXL, PRG, BLQ, BCN etc it will be fairly easy. You can set minimal night stops as a bid and it should work for you, I know a couple of people who do exactly that. As above, swapping is relatively easy anyway.

kookiesandkreme

1st Jan 2020, 07:16

Thegreenmachine

1st Jan 2020, 10:13

Okay, thank you. And once you’ve got some decent seniority - you at able to get high credit day trips too?

thanks

Ask me again in a few years !

In a nutshell yes. Or you can be more flexible with day off requests, or you can bid for the longer layovers, or you can bid for the nice destinations with decent hotel, or you can bid for the trips with only one operating sector back, or, or...

Heisenb3rg

1st Jan 2020, 20:10

Safety_

4th Jan 2020, 20:04

Hello all,

Starting BA A320 LHR...

I have some buzzing questions...
Anyone please kindly share some light...

Is it easier to get (considering the bottom of seniority placement) night stops or you're likely to get day trips as a junior?
Personally I don't mind long trips away but not sure how realistic it will be to get those?
Also, what is the average longest trip on A320 fleet at LHR?

Secondly overtime I heard it gets our credits?
How does one get overtime is it generally a call or you have an option in the bidding system?
I am not sure of the system and how it works so sorry in advance to ask silly questions!

Any idea on the roster at LHR... I know its completely varied and depends on seniority. But generally is it busy in summer and winter both or it has phases :D
Thanks! I am excited to join to see what's inside the tin!

Fly safe!

bex88

4th Jan 2020, 21:10

Hi Safety, well done and welcome

Roster, you bid placing types of trips in a order of preference. There are loads of options but to keep it simple if you want trips you say I want trips 2-4 days. If you don’t mind day trips you say, I’ll have these too but I prefer trips.....it’s way more complicated but you will get a 1052 page brief guide to it.

Day trips, yes but probably the lower credit 4:30 stuff and early and weekends. Trips, yes but again probably the 2 day 6. You may see some 3 or 4 days trips but they tend to be more desirable unless they slam 4 sectors in day 2 and 3. Max trip length is 5 days.

Overtime. Providing you are above CAP....remember that first statement. You can pick up any available work via our online system. You can also trade trips for others you prefer, subject to the rules. If you pick up a overtime trip and you are over CAP you will be paid at your bidline rate x 1.2 for the trip.....yes a amazing 20% extra! If that trip is 4:30 credit (min credit per day) you will get 4.5 x your hourly rate at the premium of 1.2

Example you pick up a BCN it’s 4:30 and your rate is £60, you will get £324 plus flight pay and duty pay before tax. The fact it’s 7 hours duty seems to be missed on BA.

Rosters are busier in the summer than the winter but it is never really slack. I did roughly 800hrs and 185 days work last year. Busiest month was 18days.......actually an improvement over the old system for me.

GS-Alpha

4th Jan 2020, 21:48

The premium rate is lower for short haul than it is for long haul then? I did not know that.

FACoff

4th Jan 2020, 22:31

Overtime. Providing you are above CAP....remember that first statement. You can pick up any available work via our online system. You can also trade trips for others you prefer, subject to the rules. If you pick up a overtime trip and you are over CAP you will be paid at your bidline rate x 1.2 for the trip.....yes a amazing 20% extra! If that trip is 4:30 credit (min credit per day) you will get 4.5 x your hourly rate at the premium of 1.2
Minor points I suppose but a) is it definite that since the introduction of JSS we need to have met CAP before overtime is paid? And b) pretty sure it's still 1.25 on NCP, not that it makes a huge difference to anyone.

BA do rely on those lower down the list picking up overtime. They get dirt cheap labour (i.e. PP1 overtime rates, which are ****e) whilst desperate newbie's get a fraction more in their pay cheque. The whole system is designed such that those needing cash the most are paid the least.

wiggy

4th Jan 2020, 23:33

Doesn't it depend on whether you have Time Assignability (TASS) on your line or not?

If you have TASS hours on your line (for whatever reason) you will only get overtime for the hours worked over the CAP..if OTOH you are TASS free (e.g; bank hours used to "get" you to CAP) then all overtime is payable...

In my defence I'd add I think only a handful of people claim to understand JSS, I reckon in reality maybe one person might have a clue..and I'm not of of them...

TBH looking at some junior (Longhaul) lines recently I'm not sure WTH there would be any scope or space for overtime.

bex88

5th Jan 2020, 08:36

Yeah it’s 1.25

TASS, you need to have discharged your TASS by picking up work or have the TASS as time expired before you pick up any work. If you don’t do that you just offset the TASS without any overtime pay.

FO’s do squeeze in overtime but their rosters are constant 6 on 1 off 5 on 2 off kind of deal. Overtime is really not very appealing but Wiggy sums it up nicely.

Airbus38

5th Jan 2020, 12:10

Just to answer the question in slightly simpler terms (CAP, credit, TASS and NCP are not things anybody outside of BA will understand)...

- S/H has tours of up to 5 days; each month you can bid for the work you want and even at the bottom of the seniority list achieve plenty of 2,3 and 4 day trips. However, work on having at least a couple of day trips every month. If you don’t live within easy driving distance you will need accommodation of some sort near LHR a few nights every month between trips.

- LGW is different, mostly day trips for everybody. You need to live within easy commuting distance.

- Overtime is available; at LHR it is all electronic...log in to the online rostering system, if you see a trip which fits on your line legally then you can pick it up and generally be paid overtime for it. I say generally, because there are a few health warnings to go with it; complicated, but essentially if you didn’t already have your full monthly work commitment on your roster then additional work just plugs the gap and doesn’t get paid as overtime. Best understood (sadly) by getting it wrong in your early days - the system has lots of intricacies and catches out the most experienced guys. Top tip - once training complete, chat to skippers over a beer down route and you’ll pick it up gradually! The value of the trip depends on numerous factors, but largely how many flying hours it contains and what your paypoint is.

- Overtime at LGW is not electronic. You can ring up to volunteer days in advance, or alternatively wait for desperate text messages for uncovered work on the day and then ring up. FOs get paid a flat rate of £514.33 per day (before tax), two days payable if the trip goes over midnight so can be very lucrative for an easy 2-sector late.

I hope that helps to give a broad overview - I would stress once again that the bidding system is complicated and best learned about gradually once line training finished!

wiggy

5th Jan 2020, 13:45

I would stress once again that the bidding system is complicated and best learned about gradually once line training finished!

Sound advice...

Falling_Penguin

5th Jan 2020, 16:29

Very helpful post, thank you Airbus38.

Paddingtonbear

5th Jan 2020, 19:57

FOs get paid a flat rate of £514.33 per day

Really? That's news to me.

Airbus38

5th Jan 2020, 20:09

Yup - 75% of Captain’s Rest Day Working (was 50%, increased some time in 2019 apparently to stop the growing trend for ‘haggling’ with Current Ops when they were desperate).

Note - rate quoted is the 2020 figure taking the pay rise in to account, and to be clear this is the ‘overtime’ (‘Rest Day Working’) payment applicable to LGW S/H pilots.

Serenity

6th Jan 2020, 14:37

FO’s do squeeze in overtime but their rosters are constant 6 on 1 off 5 on 2 off kind of deal. Overtime is really not very appealing but Wiggy sums it up nicely.

Sounds horrendous!!
At what point do you drop from exhaustion??
Safe??

WonderBus

6th Jan 2020, 14:44

Sounds horrendous!!
At what point do you drop from exhaustion??
Safe??

I’ve been on the Airbus over 4 years at BA and have never had a roster like that. Certainly 6 on, but not 3 days off in 14.

bex88

6th Jan 2020, 15:09

It’s the guys picking up overtime that have rosters like that through choice. I was shocked when I saw it too.

WonderBus

6th Jan 2020, 18:13

It’s the guys picking up overtime that have rosters like that through choice. I was shocked when I saw it too.

My apologies, I missed that part. Yea, some of the rosters out there are crazy, but if those guys are making some extra dollar then who am I to judge. Not for me personally though.

capt.sparrow

7th Jan 2020, 05:39

At PP1 what is the leave situation like? Number of days a year, golden days (if they exist) etc?

wiggy

7th Jan 2020, 07:03

At PP1 what is the leave situation like? Number of days a year, golden days (if they exist) etc?

FYI the Pay point (PP) is irrelevant, it's the same across all the PPs.

Full time contract it's 28 days leave per year..14 days to be taken in the summer season ( roughly April through start October), 14 days in the Winter. In the season it has to be taken as either a single 14 day block or two 7 day blocks...it cannot be spilt or broken down any further.

Before and/or after the leave block(s) - depending on whether it's a two week block or a pair of separated one week blocks you get buffer or "wrap" days (3 ?) where you cannot be forced to work but you may choose to do so (and there might be reasons for doing so but they are probably beyond the scope of this reply..)

Also you get two 7 day Duty Free Weeks (DFW), one week in the Summer season , one in winter, (plus effectively an optional "wrap" type day at the start of the DFW...you can choose to work in any of the days of DFW.)

6 Golden days per calendar year.

Leave/DFW entitlement is reduced proportionally for those on a part time contract.

Percula

7th Jan 2020, 10:44

How much money on average can one expect to take home per month based at LHR SH year one?

Stocious

7th Jan 2020, 12:05

Depending on preference of day trips against nightstops, and ones use of HOST, probably around £4500.

wiggy

7th Jan 2020, 13:46

Because somebody will ask - HOST is the allowances system...allows you to take money in and out of your account at down route hotels..

So if you take out lots of cash at slip hotels during the month and don't put little if any back in when you check out your take home pay will be reduced.

Busdriver01

7th Jan 2020, 19:51

Jumbo2

7th Jan 2020, 19:54

does not putting money back in reduce your tax liability?

No host is taken out after tax. Most have switched to revolut these days.

Busdriver01

7th Jan 2020, 20:06

No host is taken out after tax.

Bugger! :}

kookiesandkreme

7th Jan 2020, 20:36

No host is taken out after tax. Most have switched to revolut these days.
Surely down route expenses are tax deductible?

wiggy

7th Jan 2020, 21:17

Surely down route expenses are tax deductible?

..and that is reflected in the way the "allowances" element of pay ( or more correctly the Time Away From Base - TAFB, payment) is taxed..

Each trip attracts an amount of money based on the time away from base.

By agreement with HMRC a percentage of TAFB payment is not subject to tax - the percentage is based on what HMRC think is a credible down route spend on food. The percentage is not calculated on an individual basis, it's a "blanket" figure and is based on evidence from audits (see last para).

HMRC tax the remaining percentage of TAFB as if it is income.

HMRC monitor the spend by running regular audits where they ask, well demand, that selected crew members produce receipts for their spend down route..their aim being no doubt to increase the percentage of the time away from base payment that is taxed as income.

Flys4Funs

7th Jan 2020, 22:56

Full time contract it's 28 days leave per year..14 days to be taken in the summer season ( roughly April through start October), 14 days in the Winter. In the season it has to be taken as either a single 14 day block or two 7 day blocks...it cannot be spilt or broken down any further.

Before and/or after the leave block(s) - depending on whether it's a two week block or a pair of separated one week blocks you get buffer or "wrap" days (3 ?) where you cannot be forced to work but you may choose to do so (and there might be reasons for doing so but they are probably beyond the scope of this reply..)

Also you get two 7 day Duty Free Weeks (DFW), one week in the Summer season , one in winter, (plus effectively an optional "wrap" type day at the start of the DFW...you can choose to work in any of the days of DFW.)

6 Golden days per calendar year.

So if I’m reading the above right :rolleyes:, you could get 6 months of the year where you have between 8-10 days off consecutively, if you break up your leave and DFW. Then you could use your golden days to book at least one Saturday off for each of the other 6 months? If that’s the case it seems pretty reasonable, and negates a lot of the stuff above about new joiners having little/no control over weekends etc......

wiggy

8th Jan 2020, 06:59

That's one for the new joiners to answer.

Meanwhile I'll merely note that you can't always get leave/DFW where you want it (limited number of "slots" for each week, and it's allocated based on a points accrued system).

One gripe about Golden Days is that there is no protection from a very late finish night before one or an early AM report the day after one, but, yes you could protect a weekend if you took a pair of GDs together - which is allowable..

Airbus38

8th Jan 2020, 07:16

Flys4Funs - Yes, you are essentially correct. In the Summer 3 of the months can have 8, 10 and 11 days off consecutively; the winter three of them can have 9, 10 and 11. Golden days can easily be booked to achieve a weekend day off in the 6 remaining months if required.

Breakdown for clarity:
Summer - 10 day block (7 leave + 3 wrap days), 11 day block (7 leave + 4 wrap days), 8 day block (Duty Free week plus one ‘non-assignable’ day).

Winter - Same 10 and 11 day blocks, Duty Free week is now 9 days instead of 8 (agreed in the recent pay settlement).

The only caveat is that leave is bid for on a ‘points’ basis. If you take unpopular weeks (mid-November, say) these are worth about 6 points and Christmas week is worth 1 point. Your points total over a rolling 4-years is then used to decide who gets first pick of leave next time around. It’s a fair system which means everybody gets a reasonable crack at having popular time off, summer holidays for instance. What it does mean in practice is that new-joiners won’t necessarily have first choice leave straight away.

For completeness, LGW system is very similar except that all six leave and duty free blocks are 10 days long including wraps, and the golden days are called ‘trump days’ which can be taken in six pairs rather than six individual days off; therefore a whole weekend off can easily be achieved in every month of the year if desired (if not more than one during the quiet winter).

Dupre

8th Jan 2020, 07:24

Im a year in, direct onto LH. I can't complain about weekend working so far. .. just lucky I guess, I don't normally bid home on the weekends, but JSS often gives me some weekend days off (though I worry what's happening higher up the list to the pilots who can't get those days off due to global constraints. ......)

Also, as a junior pilot you can have some luck with weekends by bidding for reserve. .. as the 7 days off prior to reserve cover a weekend.

Flys4Funs

9th Jan 2020, 05:54

wiggy

9th Jan 2020, 07:36

Thanks for clarifying - very interesting.

I had another question on Dupre’s reserve point - if you bid reserve, you get an additional week up front - I guess you can’t bid reserve and take a leave period in the same month - i.e. get the seven days off for reserve and another 8/11 days off?

How does the reserve work, you get allocated a time slot and are on two hours notice for that period. Is this for the entire rest of the month (7 days a week) after your first week off?

If there is more than a certain amount of preexisting credit (e.g. due to leave, sims, etc) in the 4 weeks of reserve you are looking to bid for the bid will be invalid, so no, in short you can’t have a standard leave block imbedded in the 3 weeks after the Fixed Days Off.

How it works...(Long haul) you have to be on the end of the phone for three hours every evening to possibly be assigned a duty the next day. That duty might be a trip or it might be a home standby where you are on 2 hours notice (timed from phone call to crew car park at LHR).

Dupre

9th Jan 2020, 07:50

Thanks for clarifying - very interesting.

I had another question on Dupre’s reserve point - if you bid reserve, you get an additional week up front - I guess you can’t bid reserve and take a leave period in the same month - i.e. get the seven days off for reserve and another 8/11 days off?

How does the reserve work, you get allocated a time slot and are on two hours notice for that period. Is this for the entire rest of the month (7 days a week) after your first week off?

1. Yes you can bid for reserve and leave in the same month. They can abut each other too, though it must be leave followed by reserve not the other way around (as you can't put leave on your reserve available days). Doing so comes with a caveat as well - the time zone acclimatisation rules are a bit tighter before reserve so it is not a great option for a holiday to Australia. But if you are staying in Europe it's a good way of getting more time off.

2. Reserve works line this: they can call you up to 8pm for the next day's duty. Can be a flight, a standby or day off. If you are given a standby duty it is either home standby (2hr callout) or airport standby. There are 21 consecutive days of this in your reserve period.

hope that makes some sense!

Guynemer

9th Jan 2020, 08:20

Good morning,

Any feedback available on the recent selection process?
Regarding the phase 1, is it still only 3 tests?
- numerical
- verbal
- flight capacity test.

In the past they used to have 2 other tests :
- Flight Director
- Shape test.

Thanks a lot for your answers.

wiggy

9th Jan 2020, 14:29

There’s a danger we are going to confuse people here, possibly because a 28 day reserve block can (and usually does) straddle two calendar bidding months. Just rowing it all back a bit to a CliffsNotes version of the relevant bidline rule (JSS version).

A bid for a reserve block will not be accepted if there is any overlap between Leave/DFW days off and any of the 21 available days of the 28 day reserve block..so no you can’t reduce a block down to 14 available days by having a leave in the last week. If you bid for such it will fail.

You can do what want in the Fixed Days off, but as Dupre rightly says you need to acclimatised on the start of the available days.

You can however have up to have to 14 credited hours of preassigned duties embedded in the available days, such as combinations of Golden Days, SEP, Sims....more than 14 hours and a bid for reserve will fail.

Gingerbread Man

9th Jan 2020, 15:08

Heaven help anyone who has new SOPs, bidding rules, AND a type rating to get to grips with!

Mylius

9th Jan 2020, 21:46

We’ve all been there!

MachBrum

10th Jan 2020, 08:10

Is there any likelihood of recruitment for long haul again onto the 777 or 787? Or is it looking like the way in is through short haul?

wiggy

10th Jan 2020, 09:15

Heaven help anyone who has new SOPs, bidding rules, AND a type rating to get to grips with!

I don’t think there is any harm in being aware of what is vaguely possible or impossible, that might swing the decision as to whether to join BA or not, but yes, there’s a danger of TMI. I agree with a comment made upthread about not trying to get your head around bidding until you get on the line....

Yes, that means for the first few months your bids will be a shot in the dark but TBH whether you craft a bid using logic worthy of Alan Turing or just stick a pin in a few bid commands/toss a coin chances are due juniority results will probably be the same. .... however I’d seriously suggest new joiners consider buying a bidding app once they are on-line ...the company interface would have the aforementioned Turing struggling to produce anything meaningful.

Chief Willy

10th Jan 2020, 09:17

Based on the PRIAM results I would expect plenty of hiring on both the 787 and 777 this year. However, there might already be sufficient people in the hold pool to cover these needs. All longhaul fleets need pilots.

Gingerbread Man

10th Jan 2020, 11:33

I don’t think there is any harm in being aware of what is vaguely possible or impossible, that might swing the decision as to whether to join BA or not, but yes, there’s a danger of TMI. I agree with a comment made upthread about not trying to get your head around bidding until you get on the line....

Yes, that means for the first few months your bids will be a shot in the dark but TBH whether you craft a bid using logic worthy of Alan Turing or just stick a pin in a few bid commands/toss a coin chances are due juniority results will probably be the same. .... however I’d seriously suggest new joiners consider buying a bidding app once they are on-line ...the company interface would have the aforementioned Turing struggling to produce anything meaningful.

There’s nothing wrong with it at all - that’s not really what I meant. I am just surprised at the complexity of rostering. The information given on here is hugely helpful, and thank you to all those giving it.

Busdriver01

10th Jan 2020, 16:14

Flyinghigh54674

10th Jan 2020, 22:25

Would anyone mind shedding some light on verbal reasoning and numerical reasoning done on stage 1?
And what level of maths to expect?

Would Greatly appreciate it

Falling_Penguin

10th Jan 2020, 23:50

Flying high,

I think you'd probably be better off asking that question in the other forum, 'Interviews, Jobs and Sponsorship'.
Good luck.

wiggy

11th Jan 2020, 08:00

I am just surprised at the complexity of rostering.

Trust me, there are about 4000 people who continue to be surprised....:bored:

Feb rosters came out yesterday and on company yammer we have the now traditional questions being asked which are usually along the lines of “WTH didn’t my bid work this time around???????”

2 Whites 2 Reds

11th Jan 2020, 08:28

“WTH didn’t my bid work this time around???????”

Our good friend “Global Contraints”.

All of my bid groups feasible but most failed due to GC. JSS is a total shambles that no one seems to really understand. Still can’t find anyone on the line willing to admit they actually voted for this s***!

bex88

11th Jan 2020, 09:16

L - - award all work. 1 bid group only, no avoids and I end up in fall back bid group 4.....???

wiggy

11th Jan 2020, 09:28

L - - award all work. 1 bid group only, no avoids and I end up in fall back bid group 4.....???

Darned if I know..other than to get the work covered they needed you into fallback (?mode 3) to get more hours on your line....have you ended up way above CAP by any chance?

GS-Alpha

11th Jan 2020, 10:08

Bex, that means you went into fallback stage 3, which is to widen the credit range by an hour. I personally think the credit range is one of the biggest reasons why fallback effects so many people, why global constraints goes so high, and why junior guys are working their nuts off. The problem is we are trying to make JSS as much like old bidline as possible, and it just isn’t. We had a lot of control over our old banks and they appear to be restricting the credit ranges to try and mimic that. This means JSS is covering the work with one hand tied behind its back, leaving lots of uncovered work. Junior guys have very little if any control once global constraints gets involved. Every month under JSS, I get told here’s what you could have had, but we’ve just given it to someone else during global constraints, so here, have this crap instead. We know you specifically requested not to have that work, but never mind. It’s like the old roster assign, only they remove every single trip you had rather than just the one, and they don’t pay you if you work over CAP.

Bloated Stomach

11th Jan 2020, 13:22

Can you tell me if there is a training bond for non type rated First Officers?

Thegreenmachine

11th Jan 2020, 18:47

Can you tell me if there is a training bond for non type rated First Officers?

There is no bond.

Jumbo2

12th Jan 2020, 06:27

L - - award all work. 1 bid group only, no avoids and I end up in fall back bid group 4.....???

bex no offence but ask your fo's, or one of the Jss trainers how to make a proper bid, L-- award all work and only one bid group doesn't sound you understand the system very well.

122.85

12th Jan 2020, 06:50

Almost 2 years in on the 777 and the rosters have been pretty good for a while, granted I am not pushing for weekends off but have been getting a pretty good balance of trips. Just takes a few goes to work out the best JSS bid for your seniority.

Bloated Stomach

12th Jan 2020, 11:11

There is no bond.

Thank you.

thetimesreader84

12th Jan 2020, 13:51

L - - award all work. 1 bid group only, no avoids and I end up in fall back bid group 4.....???

bex, do you use ibid? It’s “bid generator” works really well (other bidding apps are available!)

18 months in, on SH, i generally get the length of trips I want and broadly the nightstops I bid for. Weekends off are rare in summer, but I’ve had a few so far this winter. Mid haul / standovers are like golden hens teeth for me. My only real complaint is having to do reserve every 3rd month. Hopefully that will change with the shorter reserve periods supposedly coming soon.

RexBanner

12th Jan 2020, 14:07

Thank you.

wouldn’t be surprised if that ended sooner rather than later. People have been leaving inside their first couple of years in droves recently. It can’t have escaped BA’s attention, particularly in the current cost dominated climate.

Icanseeclearly

12th Jan 2020, 19:41

GS-Alpha

13th Jan 2020, 09:57

Hardly leaving in Droves Rex (despite the best efforts of the company).
A quick look through the seniority lists shows about 30 “missing numbers” between seniority number 3400 - 4600 (estimate those with seniority 3400 joined about 5 years ago) works out at an attrition rate of 2.5% - surprisingly low considering.
That has just prompted me to take a look through the PRIAM results to see for myself and I agree, the number of people leaving is exceedingly low despite the rumours suggesting otherwise. I can count only 10 missing numbers before people are getting multiple valid bids (presumably about the 5 years in position).

FACoff

13th Jan 2020, 10:27

Expect there'll be a good number off to Virgin when contracts start going out. I do fly with many who are 'looking' but with Brexit hanging over the industry at the moment it's a risky time to move. Last in, first out.

3Greens

13th Jan 2020, 15:53

That has just prompted me to take a look through the PRIAM results to see for myself and I agree, the number of people leaving is exceedingly low despite the rumours suggesting otherwise. I can count only 10 missing numbers before people are getting multiple valid bids (presumably about the 5 years in position).
about 20 Dutch guys/girls left a couple of years ago as KLM were recruiting. Mainly from our P777 status. I do fly with lots of junior FO’s who are looking at other options. In particular virgin at Manchester for the NW commuters.

Heisenb3rg

15th Jan 2020, 17:09

Heisenb3rg, take a look at my post #6672 of this thread.

sorry, another part time question... if you were 75% 3 on / 1 off, could you tag your leave weeks onto the part time week off? And what about the DFW? And how would reserve work? Cheers

GS-Alpha

15th Jan 2020, 20:35

sorry, another part time question... if you were 75% 3 on / 1 off, could you tag your leave weeks onto the part time week off? And what about the DFW? And how would reserve work? Cheers Yes you can bid for your leave and duty free weeks to abut your part time days, but this is subject to the normal leave bidding process and you having enough points to obtain the weeks you are wanting.

75% reserve takes place within your three weeks on (rather than a full timer’s 4 weeks), but you earn the same points as a full timer. There are 6 fixed days off within those 21 days (2 blocks of 3 days in long haul, and 3 blocks of 2 days in short haul).

V1_cut

17th Jan 2020, 19:25

Anyone know good websites for interview prep? Is it always the case you will hear from day 1 after a few days or can the interview/group ex be taken after the mathematical and verbal reasoning section?

capt.sparrow

17th Jan 2020, 20:27

There has been some opportunity to make a whole day of it and do a combined testing, interview and group ex all in one day. When you get invited to first stage and book online have a look if a combined stage 1 and 2 is available. Otherwise you will do them separately. Re interview - it's all competency based ie tell me a time when.... Make sure you know why you want to join and know your stuff else you'll be weeded out!

g118

22nd Jan 2020, 08:59

Any news on starting dates/fleets soon. Last people out of the pool? Thanks. Best luck to all.

Phantom4

22nd Jan 2020, 18:59

Colleague offered LH hold pool or A320 with April start date.He has taken320,good move.
First quarter seems to be LH,second quarter SH as 320 in house released to LH

Lordflasheart

22nd Jan 2020, 19:00

...
sorry, another part time question... if you were 75% 3 on / 1 off, could you tag your leave weeks onto the part time week off? And what about the DFW? And how would reserve work? Cheers.

Answer ... Probably not ....

Apparently there's a big recurring whinge going on about the credited hour system making you work far harder in the month in which you have leave, than even in a fully screwed up JSS month. Then they ask to buy back your leave for peanuts and apparently the leave doesn't get replaced either. Counter productive and oppressive, or what ?

BigQ - "Where's the regulator on this ?" - UsualA - "Sunk with the Belgrano. " ;)

Referring back to my post #6695 some ten pages ago,

Our LH Pub Mole tried to explain but in between laughing, crying and spilling his beer, the only bit that made sense was ....

If you're part time you will be cheated out of two or three free days each month. Your part time days will start the day after your last trip. You will lose the industrial rest days (usually two for longhaul) that ordinarily follow the trip. You will therefore become available to work again, two days earlier than a full time pilot.

Part timers are thus working harder pro-rata than their full time mates. This doesn't happen in VS.

...
...

g118

22nd Jan 2020, 23:38

Colleague offered LH hold pool or A320 with April start date.He has taken320,good move.
First quarter seems to be LH,second quarter SH as 320 in house released to LH

Thanks, hope to hear soon.

Sheep Worrier

23rd Jan 2020, 07:43

Colleague offered LH hold pool or A320 with April start date.He has taken320,good move.
First quarter seems to be LH,second quarter SH as 320 in house released to LH

I've heard of people at my outfit being offered 320, "take it or leave it".

The two I know of are both leaving it.

RexBanner

23rd Jan 2020, 08:25

How old are they though? If they’re less than 30 and their true endgame is BA long haul then imho it’s a foolish decision. Their seniority will jump far quicker on SH as opposed to being endlessly junior as a LH pilot doing six low credit crap trips missing virtually an entire week of sleep in the calendar month.

Stocious

23rd Jan 2020, 12:23

second quarter SH as 320 in house released to LH

I'll believe that when I see it.

Phantom4

23rd Jan 2020, 15:07

You have a short time window to accept or decline then they just contact next on the pool list.
Many people going down to MSL 3750 coming out of SH freeze and release for aspirational LH bid.
350 fleet will have nine aircraft end 2020.

A320LGW

23rd Jan 2020, 16:28

Is it anticipated for there to be another hiring phase at some point this year?

The Foss

23rd Jan 2020, 23:34

I've heard of people at my outfit being offered 320, "take it or leave it".

The two I know of are both leaving it.

I believe at the sim check the assessor has a ‘suitable for long haul’ field to tick or not, which might explain why some get offered a choice and some don’t.

RexBanner

24th Jan 2020, 07:44

I believe at the sim check the assessor has a ‘suitable for long haul’ field to tick or not, which might explain why some get offered a choice and some don’t.

Also known as the “what type rating is on their licence” field. It’s utter nonsense. The BA sim has always been about being able to demonstrate the ability to pass a Type Rating on a Long Haul fleet.

Berbly

24th Jan 2020, 08:56

Also known as the “what type rating is on their licence” field. It’s utter nonsense. The BA sim has always been about being able to demonstrate the ability to pass a Type Rating on a Long Haul fleet.

Not anymore. The BA sim is now about whether or not they think you should go into the A320 only hold pool or the LH hold pool and it depended on your performance in the sim and total experience levels, but not type rating. This was said to me explicitly during my sim check last summer.

The Foss

24th Jan 2020, 09:45

Also known as the “what type rating is on their licence” field. It’s utter nonsense. The BA sim has always been about being able to demonstrate the ability to pass a Type Rating on a Long Haul fleet.

I was told this directly by someone carrying out the interviews so would be surprised if they were lying. How else do they decide to offer some the choice of LH/SH and some SH only?

RexBanner

24th Jan 2020, 09:54

No I’m not disputing what you’re saying it’s absolutely correct, it’s a recent “change”. My cynical mind is just suspecting that it’s being used as a convenient tool to be able to coerce someone into taking a SH position by making it look as though that candidate has somehow failed to make “the grade” for long haul. The truth is that the BA sim has always been pass/fail with a long haul conversion in mind so have they suddenly dropped the standard?

It’s also a complete nonsense from the POV that, other than your seniority number, there is no further assessment from inside the company to “Long Haul Suitability” once the engagement freeze is over so someone who has five years of SH behind them when doing the BA sim but assessed as “unsuitable for long haul” isn’t really going to be any significantly more or less suitable after another five years. So as I say it’s a convenient tool for the company to get more people onto SH.