BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Mansnothot]

What is your experience?

Just over 2000 hours total. Of which about 1200 on a turboprop and 400 on a jet.

[highfive]

They clearly getting desperate . Interesting times .

[PinkyPonkPilot]

They clearly getting desperate . Interesting times .


I wouldn't say desperate. I think it's as simple as the hold pool being pretty empty and courses need filling in January with most people on 3 months notice. It's certainly a good time to get in so congrats to those about to join and best of luck to those in the process. Not sure what the DEP assessment plan is once the 767 sim is removed.

[wiggy]

Not sure “desparate” is the adjective I would use but BA need a lot of new bums on seats for the foreseeable future, certainly on the A320 out of both LHR and LGW.

As for the hours flown, well perhaps the pool of high hour type rated applicants prepared to accept the lifestyle change that goes hand in hand with working out of LHR on BA shorthaul T&Cs has reduced.

Anyhow congratulations to Mansnothot, who will be joining just in time to be one of the first very very junior victims of the new rostering system ....I wish him/her the best of luck.

[CXKA]

I know many widebody pilots with thousands of hours who couldn’t get through the BA sim so well done, with the numbers we need you won’t be very junior very long!

[ETOPS]

There's an update just out from LC painting a picture of continuing DEP recruitment for 2019 with potentially large numbers required. It was also reported that the number for 2018 joining BA was just under 280 heads. A guess would be a similar number for this coming year.

As ever with BA all this could evaporate overnight if industry circumstances change but this is todays plan.

Good luck if you are applying :ok:

[cessnapete]

Not sure “desparate” is the adjective I would use but BA need a lot of new bums on seats for the foreseeable future, certainly on the A320 out of both LHR and LGW.

As for the hours flown, well perhaps the pool of high hour type rated applicants prepared to accept the lifestyle change that goes hand in hand with working out of LHR on BA shorthaul T&Cs has reduced.

Anyhow congratulations to Mansnothot, who will be joining just in time to be one of the first very very junior victims of the new rostering system ....I wish him/her the best of luck.

A Junior Pilot on the A380 shown me their Oct roster. Short on that fleet as well perhaps, by the workload. 4 LR trips and 2 Sims. 20 days work. And only 11 airframes, one away on Heavy maintenance in Manila.

[Reversethrustset]

I did my sim last week and the very nice TRE told me that BA need at least another 200 for next year on top of this year's intake. Good times indeed.

[zero/zero]

Was told 700 retirements over the next 5 years, plus A350 deliveries start next year. Interesting times ahead

[EMB-145LR]

SH commands are also expected to go very junior, to the extent that we may not have enough bidders for LGW 320 P1s. Anyone joining in the next few months with the required hours may well have a very short wait for a LHS if you’re prepared to go to Gatwick.

[FlipFlapFlop]

SH commands are also expected to go very junior, to the extent that we may not have enough bidders for LGW 320 P1s. Anyone joining in the next few months with the required hours may well have a very short wait for a LHS if you’re prepared to go to Gatwick.
That is a very quick change if absolutely accurate. I came out of the pool a while back for two reasons..... P1 at my current employer and advice that the LHS seat wait at BA would be a long wait even with 8000 jet hours.

[EMB-145LR]

That is a very quick change if absolutely accurate. I came out of the pool a while back for two reasons..... P1 at my current employer and advice that the LHS seat wait at BA would be a long wait even with 8000 jet hours.

I don't know who told you that, but Gatwick has been very junior all year. I know of several who joined at the same time as I did in 2015 who are waiting for command courses at the moment. Unofficially I've heard that Gatwick commands could go sub-4000 on the seniority list next year. At the moment we have a little over 4200 pilots. I know of pilots around 3600-3700 who have already done the internal 'Essentials for Command' course and are just waiting for a course date. Now, if you're waiting for a LH command, that's a totally different story. 20 years plus isn't unrealistic!

[wiggy]

FlipFlapFlop...

I’m possibly looking at a official comment/ document/message that quite possibly EMB has seen and whilst I won’t quote that source verbatim here I would suggest it strongly supports his opinion regarding shorthaul commands, especially at LGW.

I’d also second the comment that the timescale involved in moving to a left hand seat on longhaul is a completely different order of magnitude...:}

[FlipFlapFlop]

Thanks EMB. Although I am not unhappy at my decision to stay put (regional base now), a lot of the advice came from within these hallowed halls. I was looking for the post that said it was irrelevant how many hours I had as it would be years before even a SH command opportunity would arise.

[wiggy]

...I was looking for the post that said it was irrelevant how many hours I had as it would be years before even a SH command opportunity would arise.

Hope it wasn’t one of mine..:\ .... I think over the last year or so there has been what I shall call a err..”shift” in an attitude to recruitment, possibly driven the realisation that the irresistible force of “costs flat” actually can’t shift immovable objects such as the reality of FTLs, rostering and 900 hours a year.

[skaterboi]

For those of us that may be successful over the next few months and early in to next year, which fleets are most likely? Is it all SH from LGW first and LHR second or are there LH slots available from LHR? I'm particularly interested in the case for experienced Multi Engine Fleet people leaving the RAF....

[Jwscud]

There will certainly be direct recruitment to long haul, for which 2000h on aircraft over 50 t MTOW I believe is required.

Solely going on past practice, if you are Airbus rated, you are going to the bus. Other aircraft experience, it is to an extent the luck of the draw based on when you enter the pool and the slots available at the time. It is suggested that 2019 may be another record breaking year for recruitment.

[RexBanner]

There will certainly be direct recruitment to long haul, for which 2000h on aircraft over 50 t MTOW I believe is required
Not any longer. Dash 8 Drivers direct to the 777/787 in recent months and years. No comment.

[wiggy]

Solely going on past practice, if you are Airbus rated, you are going to the bus.



In the context of the ex-military guys (and to partly answer the question posed by skaterboi) that’s not always been the case on Longhaul. FWIW earlier this year I flew with one ex-Voyager, very very new DEP on the 777.

[Reversethrustset]

Had the good news this week, I'm in the hold pool pending a phone call. Fingers crossed it isn't long.
During my sim assessment the TRE said that he has a box to tick that asks "suitable for longhaul?" The fleet you then get assigned is largely dependant on your performance during the sim assessment; as long haul is quite "dormant in hands on flying skills" those who don't demonstrate excellent handling skills will normally be assigned short haul. Don't shoot the messenger, that's just what he said.

[Icarus1981]

You say don't shoot the messenger, but I am locked and loaded! That's total nonsense.

[.89]

Nope, it’s true. Although I think it’s quite a new thing.

As it was explained to me at the sim, BA have had some people struggle with a new type and they think it’s partly down to the infrequent nature of LH flying.

So in the sim they will assess how quickly you adapt to an unfamiliar type, the speed at which you learn and take in information, spare capacity, accuracy of flying etc...

At the end end of the sim the instructor will tick a box on your report whether they think you’re suitable for long haul, or whether they think you’ll benefit from some time with more regular sectors.

Also there was the caveat that if you get sent short haul, it doesn’t mean you failed the longhaul assessment, probably just that they need short haul people at the minute!

Its clearly not about flying skills as I got LH!

Its all explained when they go through the power point before the sim. Don’t lose sleep over it!

[Reversethrustset]

Well I'm not going to lay awake tonight worrying about your gun, I'm just telling you what he told me.

[cessnapete]

In the context of the ex-military guys (and to partly answer the question posed by skaterboi) that’s not always been the case on Longhaul. FWIW earlier this year I flew with one ex-Voyager, very very new DEP on the 777.

Wiggy is correct. Ex RAF Voyager Pilots recently DEP on to 777. And previously also direct to the A380.

[Jwscud]

I stand corrected.

The “suitable for long haul” policy has also been confirmed internally and has, to say the least, generated a bit of controversy. It was supposed to address a few training failures which are now being “solved” through selection rather than squeezing everyone through a minimum footprint course then immediately putting people under all sorts of extra pressure if 6 landings and 8 approaches with bonus jet lag (you probably haven’t mastered controlled rest yet either) isn’t enough for you to get to grips with your first heavy jet in the real world.

[wiggy]

I stand corrected. The “suitable for long haul” policy has also been confirmed internally...




If it’s any consolation the fact that such a policy actually exists on a formal basis is news to me as well, though I can see why: for the reasons you have stated.

[bex88]

Suitable for LH??!!!! I would have liked someone suitable for SH last week. Every approach back into LHR and some up north were all in and around the 25-30kt range gusting up to 39. It’s fine having a policy but if we are sending the weaker candidates to SH it’s not a great idea in my opinion. More junior commands, more junior FO’s. I don’t mind saying it but when it was gusting 35 across it was the most I had had to deal with until now.

[VinceR]

Suitable for LH??!!!! I would have liked someone suitable for SH last week. Every approach back into LHR and some up north were all in and around the 25-30kt range gusting up to 39. It’s fine having a policy but if we are sending the weaker candidates to SH it’s not a great idea in my opinion. More junior commands, more junior FO’s. I don’t mind saying it but when it was gusting 35 across it was the most I had had to deal with until now.

The idea I guess is that pilots will have more chance to develop their flying skills in SH than LH : more approaches, more landings, more briefings with less time (LHR-MAN is a good example), etc.

Personally, I think this is not the real reason. It is just a very convenient way for BA to "force" people to go to SH. They must be fed up with people refusing their SH offer because they know they'll be offered LH if they wait.

[wiggy]

...They must be fed up with people refusing their SH offer because they know they'll be offered LH if they wait.

That sounds like a bit of a high risk strategy - how often does it work?

[VinceR]

That sounds a bit of a high risk strategy - how often does it work?


The only thing I know for sure is it worked. People preferred losing a bit on seniority to start directly on LH. Some rumors say that BA is now by far more strict on that. They clearly say that a "no" will be final (no more offer).
Rumor to be confirmed though.

[zero/zero]

Rumor to be confirmed though.

Consider it confirmed. You get one email with an offer and 24hrs to reply with a yes. Turn it down or don’t reply and you get kicked out the holding pool.

Getting a ‘recommended for LH’ definitely does not mean that’s what you’re going to get offered

[TheAirMission]

Friend of mine, <2000 hours, no unfrozen ATPL.. airbus TR. Straight on the 777

[reeko]

Friend of mine, <2000 hours, no unfrozen ATPL.. airbus TR. Straight on the 777

how recent was this?

[Icanseeclearly]

Couple of things come out from the company recently, you can only go LH if you have an unfrozen ATPL (and fairly unlikely if no “jet time”) and if you turn down your first job offer you are out the pool, no bargaining anymore.

BA will send you where they want you and make offers depending on what positions need filling at that particular time.

Good luck to everyone swimming the quicker you join the less I work.

[TheAirMission]

how recent was this?
Last month

[Stocious]

Friend of mine, <2000 hours, no unfrozen ATPL.. airbus TR. Straight on the 777

Need the ATPL by end of TR course though so must have all the requirements met before starting the course.

[reeko]

Need the ATPL by end of TR course though so must have all the requirements met before starting the course.

meaning the 1500 hours TT inclusive of x, y & z etc etc?

[Stocious]

meaning the 1500 hours TT inclusive of x, y & z etc etc?

Yes, the ATPL skills test will be done during the TR course LST, with a requirement to apply for it as soon as possible after. Otherwise they can't do APIC duties.

[captain.weird]

Guys, how much do the verbal reasoning and TCAS test on latestpilotjobs reflect regarding the real test at Waterside? The verbal test seems to be a 100% miss..

[Phantom4]

Good friend,Sim early September,positive result to hold pool,A320 rated.Posted 777 Jan

[captain.weird]

Good friend,Sim early September,positive result to hold pool,A320 rated.Posted 777 Jan

What was his experience total?

[student88]

Direct Entry Pilot - First Officer has opened again today.

"To apply to this campaign you must have a valid type rating with a minimum of 500 hours or 100 sectors on type."

[Phantom4]

captain weird, She has 1500hrs

[Dozza2k]

I'm not LGW based, but i believe they only have 3 night stops at the base, EDI/GLA and JER so lots of daytrips, gatwick has more flexible hours than LHR so some flights do get back at 0200 or so...

[bex88]

Essentially it’s EZY in blue. Preference based rostering. 58.8k starting salary and pay is capped at year 10 but the increments are different to the 34 point scale at LHR too. You earn a little more basic pay but overall less than at LHR because the allowances are less. That’s my take on it but I am LHR

[buzzc152]

Anyone know how long applications are open for ? I can’t see it on the website.

[Cough]

Bex - Think the 34 PP scale has different salary caps to the 24PP scale...

[Paddingtonbear]

Essentially it’s EZY in blue

Does that apply, if one achieves a command after a few years?

[EllanVannin]

Essentially it’s EZY in blue.

A significant over simplification in my opinion.

I worked at EZY for 5 years, then spent my first 3 years in BA based down at LGW (leaving there not very long ago).

Some differences -

1. BA workload is much quieter during the winter than EZY. My highest annual hours were around 700. Easyjet was 800-900 each year.

2 True that nightstop destinations are limited, but lots of decent length layover times in the town centres rather than minimum rest at airport hotels. Decent amount of clear days off in EDI or GLA should that be your thing. I loved them.

3. Small base so you know everyone and so enjoy the friendly atmosphere that goes with it, which is not the case at the massive LGW easyjet base.

4. The knowledge that if you don’t enjoy it, or begin to lose your enjoyment of it, then you can move to LHR or long haul rather than being relatively trapped in the job at EZY.

5. Significantly lower number of 4 sector days.

6. Tastier crew food IMHO. Certainly healthier.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to slag off easyjet. There are plenty of plus points to working there.

Just trying to help people from avoiding the trap of not moving airlines because they took it at face value when someone said that BA at LGW is just EZY in blue. There are similarities but there are significant differences too.

Hope that helps anyone considering the move.

[student88]

Essentially it’s EZY in blue.

Rubbish - I don't regret leaving easyJet for BA. It wasn't everything I imagines but perhaps I was being a bit naive. I feel like I'm treated as a professional at BA, and I'm no longer treated like a child by my management.

If you're flying an A320 at LGW for easyJet what have you got to lose by applying for BA at LGW? You can essentially carry on doing the same job whilst you build up seniority to make a move over to long haul if thats something you fancy doing, if you get in quick you'll probably get a command sooner at BA (I have heard C32X is down to the 4000's this year).

[speedrestriction]

If you're flying an A320 at LGW for easyJet what have you got to lose by applying for BA at LGW?

Money, you lose money. Management’s attitude to FOs is slowly shifting as well. About time too.

[.89]

From what I was told, if you ask for 320 LGW, you’ll get it.

[CXKA]

You can apply directly to LGW as they have split the applications, but need 500 hours on A320 or A330.

[student88]

Money, you lose money.
I guess it depends how much you're being screwed over when you leave. My pay almost doubled the first year I joined BA, I was on a £39K Second Officer contract at easyJet..

[AviatorNL]

Thanks for al the info!
From ppjn I calculated roughly the pp1 take home pay (incl tafb and block hour payments) for long haul. Is a figure of £4500,- net realistic? What would this be approximately in 5 years time?

Thanks again and good luck to all applying.

[nrn]

It's more like around 4k on longhaul if you're lucky.. Not sure about the 5 year figure as I've only been in for 3 years

[EllanVannin]

Thanks for all the info, I’d actually prefer minimum time away, how often were you generally doing nightstops each month?

Thanks to all others that replied as well! Does anyone know what the chances are of getting short haul if currently Boeing rated? Are you able to specify a preference and do they take this into consideration? I just have the sim check part of the interview to do now.

you can avoid nightstops quite easily at LGW if you want to, as there aren’t masses around. At LHR it’s harder to avoid them entirely though.

[wiggy]

Re nightstops and:

At LHR it’s harder to avoid them entirely though.

I’ll admit short haul isn’t my aisle but I thought the days of BEA and “Back Every Afternoon” had long gone for all but the most senior (if that’s what they want)....If maximum number of nights at home per month is an important criteria is BA (certainly at LHR) necessarily a wise choice? That’s not intended as a pointed comment - I’m just throwing the question out there to hear what people think.

[JW411]

I can't understand the modern desire to be home every night. I used to like being away and believed in the adage that absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[RexBanner]

It's more like around 4k on longhaul if you're lucky.. Not sure about the 5 year figure as I've only been in for 3 years

nrn you must be using host a LOT if you’re lucky to take home £4K after 3 years on LH. I’m a Short Hauler in the company a similar amount of time to you and even in quiet months I’m taking home £4K easily. Is your tax code correct?

[RJ100]

..........Also heard BA CityFlyer are upping pay.


Sorry to hijack the thread, but in reply:
There is rumour about BACF upping pay but nothing confirmed. We recently had two surveys thrown at us, one BALPA and one company re pay. Our current pay deal is until July 2019. There are also many more rumours going around BACF. Most laughable.
Too many people at BACF hear a rumour and then spout it as fact, often claiming first hand knowledge. Most do not materialise!! One fleet manager loves to gossip.

[wiggy]

Any guys/gals in BA know if a pay rise is due?

Last three year deal expired April this year, talks with the company are due so talks about the talks have been rattling along for some time on the in-house forum...

BA are making a massive profit, bonuses all round for the upper echelons so I’m expecting RPI plus not a lot for the pilots if history repeats itself, though TBF the Union is now operating under different management so who knows. As this forum’s existence demonstrates BA has not historically had a problem attracting pilots or retaining them though there are signs things might be changing.

The management POV is since BA still runs a seniority pay scale most pilots get a pay rise every year ..:oh:

[Riskybis]

yeah I couldn’t believe the Bonus (if you can even call it that) we got ! Almost like a sick joke from the guys at the top !!
Just about sums up BA to be honest

[bex88]

The pay question is a good one. BA’s incremental pay scale means you get about 2.3% per year. The issue is that when these scales were bought in SH commands were around 12 years. With the improved terms at RYR, EZY, Jet2 etc a command on SH at BA is not well rewarded for new commands. The gulf is huge. 78k to 148k for doing the same job!!? Let’s not point the finger at the top because that’s not the issue. The issue is how far behind the lower end of the pay scale has fallen away. I would hope that is addressed to at least match the low cost carriers....after all “Gap to market” was a favourite phrase from management until recently.

Another way way to look at it is that any increase is enjoyed by the tax man more than the pilot. Healthcare for the family would be very welcome. That’s just my view talking for myself and I know little of LH or FO pay etc. What I do know is our ex bmi colleagues should get flight pay and I feel some of our FO’s are dreadfully underpaid for any overtime that they do. It is time we were less of a push over. Yes invest in our future, but we invest for our future whilst the shareholders etc take now and tomorrow there is never any reward as we must invest again.

My take home home pay is static if not less than it was a few years ago.

[no sponsor]

People are leaving BA. Of course there are those who retire and those who lose their medicals etc, but there is a small flow of people who decide BA is not for them. Some of these come from LH and some come from SH. I know directly of 2 FOs who decided the 744 in BA was not for them and quit to return to their previous employers. I’ve heard of a couple who got their command on SH and who’ve left to earn a lot more cash. I’m not sure how it was 10+ years ago, but BA certainly isn’t what it used to be. That said, I would rather look at the sun through a pair of binoculars than return to my previous employer (Jet2). But, everyone is different....

[nrn]

nrn you must be using host a LOT if you’re lucky to take home £4K after 3 years on LH. I’m a Short Hauler in the company a similar amount of time to you and even in quiet months I’m taking home £4K easily. Is your tax code correct?


Sorry thats a PP1 take home pay with minimal HOST and no overtime. I’m a TCP right now so I’m not sure how that compares to a PP4 line pilot. But right now it’s a lot more but that is because I do an extra sim every now and then.

With regards to the upcoming pay negotiations, I’m expecting the BACC to push for an absolute massive payrise. We all winge about lifestyle, but when you compare us to EasyJet we are lacking behind in cold hard cash. Right now we’re making a **** tonne of money and I bet you the company is going to hide behind BREXIT this time next year. The time is NOW!

the reality will probably be slightly different though....

[Riskybis]

Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) , LUCKILY I’m on pp24 but still the temptation to leave is overwhelming , I feel that we are a somewhat neglected workforce , 2 applications in with 2 other companies.
rant over

[wiggy]

Thing that annoys me is that for all the years in SH BA, the saving grace for me and many of my colleagues and friends was getting on to the LH fleet . Here I am 3 years on the 787 and I’m working my ass off (I know we have a few grounded that is helping the high workload) ..



I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?

I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.

[Riskybis]

I'm curious so I have to ask - I'd agree the BA Long Haul lifestyle probably beats SH hands down but what sort of workload were you expecting on Long Haul....?

I’m afraid the days of coming to BA Long Haul for rest have long gone, certainly if you are a trip line holder on a full time contract...and I suspect JSS might make it worse.



I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open

[RexBanner]

Wiggy whilst I agree that JSS is less than desirable I think there’s a lot of scaremongering going on regarding its introduction. As a grass is greener individual casting “envious” eyes at some of the long haul rosters on iBid it has to be said that it escapes me how JSS could fit any more work onto the lines on Long Haul. We’ve already got tripline holders doing six east coasts in a month. Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient? The annual days off entitlement will remain the same too (I think I heard someone voting for JSS because we’d in fact get more annual days off?)

The inescapable conclusion for me is it’s not even about money as such, it’s the fact that to gain any semblance of lifestyle in BA nowadays you have to go part time. That is absolutely not just and it’s high time the workload was addressed. It won’t be of course.

[Bloodhound Loose]

Everybody is doing upto 900 hours a year, they physically cannot do any more so how is JSS going to make that any more efficient?

That’s not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and i’ll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.

[RexBanner]

That’s not a true statement. You show me a blind line holder logging 900 hours a year, and i’ll show you a pilot doing lots of overtime.
we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.

[Pickled]

we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.
Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.

[Bloodhound Loose]

we’re splitting hairs now. Yes it may not be 100% accurate that everyone is doing 900 hours but take a look at most triplines on long haul for anyone who is full time and you show me where JSS is going to fit in another trip with the same number of days off.

RexB,

Your Point is well made ref tripline holders. However, I don’t see the BL issue as “splitting hairs”.

It varies by fleet/status and month, but I reckon a good 20% of the company are on blindlines. If, for example, you have 2 BL holders flying 600 hours a year and, next year, through JSS, you can get them to 900 hours a year, then you’ve effectively generated an additional pilot with no increase in pilot numbers.

This thread is aimed at new joiners who would have been low hours blindline pilots.

Anyway, to go back to your original point, you were struggling to see how JSS could squeeze more out of the workforce. You see the answer now?

[RexBanner]

Under Bidline junior long haul pilots have picked up less popular trips and worked almost every weekend, but they have done less flying than trip line holders, simply because the remaining uncovered work at the final stage of blind line construction could not be assigned more efficiently.

One of the big gains of JSS for BA is that this inefficiency will be removed. The junior pilots will fly the unpopular trips, work almost every weekend AND work as hard as the senior pilots.

BA is a long term bet. Anyone age 40+ thinking of joining should consider very carefully how their career is likely to develop. Historically they are likely to wait about 18-20 years for a long haul command at which time the move to the bottom of a seniority list will lead to a pretty dreadful lifestyle...who wants that in their late 50s? Many BA SFOs have stayed in the right hand seat to preserve their lifestyle even before the implications of JSS became apparent.

My point is it’s a mathematical impossibility to do more than six east coast trips in a month or five trips constructed of anything longer. Many of our colleagues are already working these kinds of rosters so how can JSS make it any worse? Additionally if life is now going to be so brutal under JSS then how come one of the things that was delaying it was that we required more pilots to make it work, not less?

[wiggy]

I guess you are right , I should’ve had my eyes open





Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....

[Riskybis]

Hi again, just to add my post wasn’t a “pop” at you, but perhaps more an attempt at a bit of a heads up for some not in the company who see BA through rose tinted specs and BA LH through doubly rose tinted specs. I know BA LHR SH rosters can be horrid these days, but I know that some of those arriving for work see the LH crews leaving the car park at breakfast time and think “alright for them” with perhaps not recognising where they have been for the previous few hours.

Over the years once a LH fleet picks up a large number of low credit trips it can be chuffing hard to get near CAP and maintain sanity.....witness over the years some of the rosters seen on the 747, 744 and 777. I guess the 787 might be stuck with similar at the moment due to the long range issues but TBH I haven’t looked at your guys rosters..if that is the case hopefully you’ll see an improvement once the engine issues get sorted - whatever happens I hope all works out OK for you.

Re JSS...might be better for some, might be worse...I’m not convinced it is a panacea for the junior pilots...I actually agree with Pickled’s take on how it will out for many of them ...but since I’ve yet to even see a dummy roster I’m only guessing....





no offence taken mate , we are all good . Good post btw

[Pickled]

Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.

[GS-Alpha]

Rex

At the moment, a senior 747 pilot can do 4 high credit 3 day trips and be pretty much at CAP, or 5 and exceed it by some margin, or they can do 4 x 4 day trips and be at CAP. A junior pilot does 6 low credit 3 day trips and is still hovering just below CAP, or alternatively, the company fail to squeeze the 6 trips on their line so they are left considerably below CAP. Theoretically, spreading out the high and low credit density a bit more would make the workforce as a whole more efficient, because the company could get more people to CAP more regularly. Whether JSS will do this to the most senior pilots remains to be seen, but there will likely be a seniority level where pilots no longer get the same average credit density as they once did, and this will enable the average credit density of the junior pilots to improve. Of course they will most likely still be doing 6 x 3 day trips, but I suspect their average credit density will improve, which will mean their annual hours will increase.

I will be one of those junior Captains before long so I have a part time request in, because without it, I don’t think I’ll be able to accept the command. It is madness that in order to take the promotion, I feel it necessary to go part time and end up earning less than I currently do, but we are where we are. I am not prepared to reduce my lifespan for any employer.

[bex88]

Well this makes for depressing reading. Anyone who is considering a junior command, I can tell you don’t touch it with a barge pole. As soon as my freeze is up I’ll be going RHS LH or if the company allows, part time and I’ll keep the command. The only way I have coped is because blindlines work me less but I’ll be dammed if I am going to work to the level of a trip line holder and take all the crap.

Current ops are not respecting our scheduling agreement and have given me some shocking duties. When I questioned it the response was “it’s legal” yep but not under bidline rule.......

[RexBanner]

I’m still sceptical Bex, after all if JSS is going to be so incredibly efficient and able to work us to within an inch of our lives, then why are we right now embarking on another massive recruitment drive (I’m told 2019 will be possibly a new record for numbers)? There aren’t that many people retiring.

(oh by the way see you in the sim soon!)

[bex88]

Oh no that’s it. Job’s F£&ked ��

Look forward to it.

[GS-Alpha]

Well for one, JSS has to work within bidline rules whereas Final Assign does not. Also, I think there will be quite a few people retire in 2019 and 2020. BA has been barely coping to cover the work even with three years of bidline rule alleviation’s. Suddenly those alleviations will be gone (hopefully not to be replaced with new ones). There’s a lot of catching up to do to establish the correct pilot numbers.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.

Someone once said there was no fatigue at BA - yikes things must have changed,,,,

[wiggy]

Someone once said there was no fatigue at BA - yikes things must have changed,,,,

They have...FWIW there is a lot of disquiet now about the very fatiguing nature of some rosters/trip constructions.we’ve gone well beyond the level of grumbles over a beer post flight, people are now raising Air Safety Reports/Mandatory Occurance Reports, more so than ever before.

Also following increasing complaints and following the stalwart efforts of one individual in particular some in authority outside BA are now looking at BA’s handling of those who go sick....

[NG708]

As someone who is considering applying to Ba this year to look for an airbus command over the next 2 years, would this be a good bet? I’m not interested in LH, already done enough of that. What I’d like to know is what sort of working pattern a new SH FO or CPT have and whether you get any choice over base at interview/ offer time. Can anyone help me with this?

someone said, BA is a long term bet, is it worth the move financially and career wise for someone mid40s who has the hours for command but wants out of the northern bucket and spade outfits?

any pm welcome too.

[ProfessorSnape]

Can someone outline the part time options available in BA please. Is there a waiting list and how long from applying can you expect to get it?

many thanks

[bex88]

NG708. You would be mad to join BA for SH only and a quick command. You will work nearly every weekend working the inefficient trips others don’t want. You will be paid less than that of a captain at both EZY and RYR. On top of that three months of the year you will be on reserve so are at the companies back and call for 28 days at 2hrs notice. Under JSS you could expect to work 18-20 days a month as a junior captain to make cap. The only bit in the above that is an assumption is JSS the rest is first hand info as reliable as you will get. Quick commands are never certain

[Buter]

I am mid thirties with young kids and been having doubts. I think I might be too old to take full advantage of a career with BA.

I have been bit later to aviation than some, career change guy, or my other plan with my age is to just go to EK for 10 years be flogged to death then come back and go EZY or someone like that.

I would love to try long haul, and hope if i get in to BA I can try it. From what I gather it’s possible to go to LH and if it’s not for you go back to SH? Obviously not straight away.

Im at a crossroad just weighing up options.


Go through the application process if you’re interested, brother. You ain’t got a decision to make until you get offered a job.

You may get offered long haul or short haul, depending on what they’re short of on the day. Apparently, at the moment, you get offered a job once and once only. Your choice.

if you accept a seat on one of our fleets you will be there for for 5 years unless the company wants to move you. That includes long haul back to short haul.

EK for 10 years? You outta your f’ing mind?

Best of luck, dude!

Buter

[Buter]

Rex, scheduling reps have confirmed that under JSS a pilot on an 85% part time contract could still do 5 x Lagos (or Accra or Kuwait or similar trips) per month. Thats a fact.

Take a look at the 747-400 rosters, some pilots are already flying more than 6 trips a month. Shocking but true. No wonder sickness and fatigue reports are rocketing...one day the company may even acknowledge that a floating body clock and multiple night out of bed seriously affects a pilot's health, short term and long term.
Could you please email me the screenshots of the 744 pilots doing 6+ trips, sir?

Regards

Buter

3.5.4.3, by the way...

[wiggy]

Could you please email me the screenshots of the 744 pilots doing 6+ trips, sir?

Regards

Buter

3.5.4.3, by the way...





’Morning Buter...good to finally meet you in person the other week ..

The coffee hasn’t kicked in yet so I may be resistant to detail but a quick 1 minute skim read of iBid final rosters shows at least one 744 P1 with 6 trips completely contained within October, though the individual is so far above CAP they may have deliberately loaded their line up or have been RA’d. It certainly looks like Bidline rule 3.5.4.3 hasn’t been “deployed” or wasn’t in play for some reason.

Even if it’s the case that you don’t ever have to do a 6 trip month there are certainly some who do and for many 5 trips will be the norm on at least some of the Longhaul Fleets, which I suspect may come as a surprise to a few of our readers and prospective joiners.

ATB..

[Tay Cough]

5 trips and two sim days for me I’m the latest bid. Without the sim, that line was a few minutes over CAP. That particular rule not in play sadly, Buter.

[GS-Alpha]

I met a junior 747 Captain the other day who claimed to have done 17 trips in a row with just 2 days off between each trip!

[Pickled]

Scanning down just the first 36 names on the 747 captain's status list there are 3 pilots with 6 whole trips in October (one of those also has an additional carry in trip). There is also one with 5 complete trips and 2 days in the sim.
Many of those 36 pilots are part time.

[eckhard]

Bex88 said:

On top of that three months of the year you will be on reserve so are at the companies back (sic) and call for 28 days at 2hrs notice.

Just to clarify, the first 7 days of the 28 days reserve are normally ‘fixed days off’. One can elect to work during those days (excepting the final two) but BA can not assign any trips.

NG708: I was 42 when I joined BA, having had 10 years in GA and 10 years in 737 UK Charter Ops (including 8 years in command). I joined onto the 747 fleet and spent 14 happy years there. Then 5 years A320 LHS and now LHS on the 787.

As my BA experience spans the last 20 years, it’s difficult to give advice because the situation is now different but I just wanted to point out that it worked for me.

[Pickled]

I am mid thirties with young kids and been having doubts. I think I might be too old to take full advantage of a career with BA.

I have been bit later to aviation than some, career change guy, or my other plan with my age is to just go to EK for 10 years be flogged to death then come back and go EZY or someone like that.

I would love to try long haul, and hope if i get in to BA I can try it. From what I gather it’s possible to go to LH and if it’s not for you go back to SH? Obviously not straight away.

Im at a crossroad just weighing up options.


It is likely that someone joining BA in their mid-thirties could have a good career at BA. That should allow enough time to gain a long haul command by about age 55...as ever it is impossible to predict the future, but historically that would be about the time frame. BA still offers security of employment and a stable lifestyle. It will be damn hard work with a lot of time away from home with people you do not know. It may also become a practical requirement to live within 90 minutes journey time to work. Pressure to cut costs may lead to the BA package becoming ever more "market competitive" rather than "market leading."

It would normally be necessary to stay 5 years in long haul before going to short haul if long haul does not work for you. An exception may be made if you can make a strong case to move earlier or if it is in BA's interests. Overall BA pilot managers have normally been very reasonable and considerate, but the whole company is under constant pressure to continuously cut costs.

Good luck with your decision.

[Mansnothot]

Hey guys and girls, just wondering if there’s anyone on here that’s starting the 320 typerating on the 7th of Jan? We’re trying to get a watsapp group going before the whole thing starts. Send me a pm if you want.

[skaterboi]

Ladies and Gents, speaking as someone who is in the current DEP recruiting round, I'd like to say thanks for the all the posted info, even if it does make for slightly depressing reading. I'm early 40s, soon to be ex Mil and am now wondering whether BA is not going to give me the life/work balance I'm after, especially as money is not the be all and end all.

I have a solid job offer with a stable 6 on, 5 off roster. I now have a lot of thinking to do as to whether BA is the answer I thought it once was.

[Icanseeclearly]

Skaterboi.

I am ex military and an ex turboprop driver and joined BA SH 3 years ago at age 46. I can honestly say it is the easiest gig I have ever had.

Yes I fly with people who are 15 years younger than me, but that’s not an issue.

Yes I will never get a LH command but frankly It doesn’t bother me, in fact I have deliberately not bid for SH command as it’s about quality of life for me and I have been there and done that.

BA is not the be all and end all and it most definitely has its problems but show me somewhere that doesn’t, other than the night Moscow you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of SH flights that are still airborne after 2330 so that’s a massive plus in my mind, the fact you actually get off the aircraft to explore the city you are in is also a massive plus to me. The biggest plus of all is the ability to move fleets and reinvigorate the job.

there are always people who are unhappy, it goes with the territory, I believe you could put pilots in a bar and give them free beer and a free lap dance and we, as a group, would complain because it’s bitter not lager and a brunette not a blonde, there are 4200 pilots at BA and I can’t believe more than 100 a year (and that’s a very generous estimate) leave for pastures new that’s about 2%, I wonder what the percentages are at other carriers?

like I say BA is not the be all and end all and it has its issues, talk to ex military mates to get a proper feel of how it is but take it from me it’s perfectly easy to enjoy it as an “older” FO.

[Buter]

’Morning Buter...good to finally meet you in person the other week ..

The coffee hasn’t kicked in yet so I may be resistant to detail but a quick 1 minute skim read of iBid final rosters shows at least one 744 P1 with 6 trips completely contained within October, though the individual is so far above CAP they may have deliberately loaded their line up or have been RA’d. It certainly looks like Bidline rule 3.5.4.3 hasn’t been “deployed” or wasn’t in play for some reason.

Even if it’s the case that you don’t ever have to do a 6 trip month there are certainly some who do and for many 5 trips will be the norm on at least some of the Longhaul Fleets, which I suspect may come as a surprise to a few of our readers and prospective joiners.

ATB..



Nice to meet you as well, sir.

I‘ve had a look through the C744 rosters and some of them look suicide inducing. However, very few of them were in the realm of the 5 trip rule. If you look, many of the trips were picked up at stage 2, IOT or EOT. There’s no protection, and there shouldn’t be, from a pilot loading up his/her roster as much as they want.

Sooooo happy to be on the tanker...

Cheers

Buter

[wiggy]

Sooooo happy to be on the tanker...

That opens up a whole range of responses..:E

I’ve tried to resolve your unspoken unwritten :confused: by PM........

[Wireless]

’Morning Buter...good to finally meet you in person the other week ..

The coffee hasn’t kicked in yet so I may be resistant to detail but a quick 1 minute skim read of iBid final rosters shows at least one 744 P1 with 6 trips completely contained within October, though the individual is so far above CAP they may have deliberately loaded their line up or have been RA’d. It certainly looks like Bidline rule 3.5.4.3 hasn’t been “deployed” or wasn’t in play for some reason.

Even if it’s the case that you don’t ever have to do a 6 trip month there are certainly some who do and for many 5 trips will be the norm on at least some of the Longhaul Fleets, which I suspect may come as a surprise to a few of our readers and prospective joiners.

ATB..



I’m P2 744. Blind lined. I’ve got 5 and a half trips this month and not beyond CAP.

Just had a row of trip/2 days off/trip rolling from last month. Totally knackered. Just woke from a mammoth 13 hour coma back home after busting through my two (very loud) alarm clocks :O

[Wireless]

Nice to meet you as well, sir.

I‘ve had a look through the C744 rosters and some of them look suicide inducing. However, very few of them were in the realm of the 5 trip rule. If you look, many of the trips were picked up at stage 2, IOT or EOT. There’s no protection, and there shouldn’t be, from a pilot loading up his/her roster as much as they want.

Sooooo happy to be on the tanker...

Cheers

Buter


Trust me, You don’t have to plunder OT to have an eyeball busting P2 jumbo roster, they’ll offer that little service free of charge even on a blind line.

Many overlook the quality of a month isn’t about the 1st to the 31st. Your body doesn’t work 1st to the 31st. You can have a nice little compact rolling roster of pain from the 15th of one month to the 14th of the next and then a shockingly luxurious row of 4/5 days off block mid following month. Which by then consists of crying in a corner and sucking your thumb for the first two days :O

[wiggy]

Ouch...

There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.

I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.

[Wireless]

Ouch...

There are some who are of the opinion that the combination of JSS and recruiting will see some relief from that sort of scheduling but TBH and very much IMHO it’s hard to see any regime run by the likes of AC taking their foot off the metaphorical throat once they’ve seen what can be enforced.

I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.





Yup! For me it’s now black and white. No more messing about now. Beg for part time whilst I have a mull over (can’t afford it though so not a great long term option), bid for LGW (frying pan/fire?) or get the hell out of dodge. I can feel this in my body now. My time at home is now given to work. I’ve tried to be very positive about work until now. Loads of good aspects of course.. I might be paid 65k but my time “off” and health do belong to BA. I figure they’ve bought me half price :O

[GS-Alpha]

I’m very strongly of the opinion that looking ahead for many a career in BA Long Haul will only sustainable if they are able to mitigate the effects by getting onto one of the part time contracts , but that’s obviously just my POV.

I believe you have hit the nail firmly on the head there Wiggy. I see people who have come to the jumbo from short haul, or have just joined from other airlines. They think it is great and say it is a breeze. I always say to them “Yep, that is because it takes about five years for the long term fatigue to really hit you, but it you it will.” They don’t believe me, but give them five years and they’ll be begging for part time or a return to short haul because the current work rate is beyond what the human body can reasonably be expected to do.

[pilotpete123]

Does BA have a scheduling agreement with regards to how many days off you get between long haul trips? And if so, are the days off to EASA spec or are they slightly more generous, say, no report before 0700 local?

[Wireless]

I believe you have hit the nail firmly on the head there Wiggy. I see people who have come to the jumbo from short haul, or have just joined from other airlines. They think it is great and say it is a breeze. I always say to them “Yep, that is because it takes about five years for the long term fatigue to really hit you, but it you it will.” They don’t believe me, but give them five years and they’ll be begging for part time or a return to short haul because the current work rate is beyond what the human body can reasonably be expected to do.


i joined from another LH airline and this is the most knackered I’ve ever been. Partly my fault as I knew the method of the rosters. I think BA’s version of LH is elegantly draining. All the flip flop shift reversals with little time to recover for enough weeks to ensure when you do hit leave or a block off you sort of collapse over the line ha. They’re experts at it. I’ve got to admire that. 5 (a fifth of a month!) missing nights sleep a month becomes my problem, not theirs :0 .

What’s not my fault is it’s changed (ing) , optimising since I’ve arrived. What existed when I signed up is moving around under my feet a little. Bidline as a concept is (was) good, don’t get me wrong. But I am surprised at whoever agreed to the the whole CAP thing back in t’ day, emphasis on the number CAP is/ lack of blocks off after LH had their pants pulled right down. Maybe folk who’d never worked outside of BA and they thought they were onto a good number? God knows.

I know having been elsewhere flying life can be really amazingly bad outside of BA (been there, worn the cheap t shirt :o ). But that’s not really any kind of answer. Less gets said/ admitted but the ability to recover or actually use time off after trips can also be a lot better.

All the details and why’s and wherefores are by the by to me. It’s hardly entirely BA’s fault anyway. Money makers will always do what money makers will do. Business attracts naturally greedy people to the top table. And they will do what they will do. Squeeze. The whole idea is we need folk to protect the greedy ones from running amok, then it works well for everyone...

We do have a regulator. I personally think the regulators are a circus act with protecting health in the flying workplace. They’re fine keen about defining the high health standards they want yet notable by their sqirmyness when it comes to having the the brass balls to address the causes of issues the medical lot say kills people. Smoking ban? Yeah fine - ban that as it doesn’t harm the bottom line of big aviation firms. Fly with booze in your body? Oh no, ban that, that’s unsafe, plus the public friggin hate it like the devil. Easy one that to pop a rule on. Land with sleep deprivation equivalent to 5 glasses of wine? “Oh, Er, mm, what’s that over there? Moving on.... I know let’s call this line in the sand, “fatigue” and paint it into the corner along with what causes stress in flying (another thorny one). It’ll be a vague untouchable unreachable thing, a bit like unicorn tears. Yes, Lets define it as something impossible to get. All the rest is “tiredness” and, well, that’s easy. That’s just like you get after a fat man Sunday lunch. Yes those pilots shift reversing are all “tired” that’s it. We’ll also chuck in an after-the-fact approach - make up a few touchy feely “support” and monitoring systems. Essentially means airlines can quietly file reports of this mythical “fatigue” in the grey tin file unit by the desk. Means we don’t have to address the causes and look like a real British regulator anytime the press ask us about it. Job done. We can’t possibly admit the current set up with aviation needs a big kick in the balls”. Bloody useless...

I tend to look if I can enjoy home life and going to work. Im a bear of simple brain and my small brain is just telling me I’m frigging knackered :) Can you tell? :)

[Pickled]

Does BA have a scheduling agreement with regards to how many days off you get between long haul trips? And if so, are the days off to EASA spec or are they slightly more generous, say, no report before 0700 local?

BA has Bidline rules (BLR)...or what is left of them after Balpa have granted a whole series of alleviations (the reasons why they did this are often debated, but the hard working Balpa reps believe that they had very sound reasons for doing so).

One good thing about BA is that your roster will not be changed without your consent once the final rosters have been published.

BLR requires 2 days off between LH flights, however 3 years ago a temporary alleviation was granted allowing BA to assign trips to EASA rules in some circumstances. This means that a trip with no EASA days off requirement could be assigned against your will that returns the day before a trip on your roster or more commonly there will be a gap of only 1 day between a trip on your line and a force assigned trip. An Africa and some Middle East trips trip have no days off requirement under EASA as there is no relevant time change, so back to back trips can be force assigned.

The recent discussion on this thread about the number of trips on a LH line is very important. 6 LH trips of 3 days will take a pilot above the required amount of work allowing the excess hours to be exchanged for money in subsequent months (or bidding to fly less in a subsequent month with the significant risk of being force assigned a trip because there is a gap on your line). The maths is simple: 6 LH trips of 3 days take up 18 days, the return sectors will include a fatiguing flight on the vast majority of occasions, the first day off at home the pilots feels like death, that is 6 more days, the following day the pilot feels like death warmed up, that is another 6 days. In a 30 day month there are no days off at home when the pilot feels fine. Add cumulative effects of repeated months with 5 or more trips and there is no lifestyle left and the pilot is wondering why he feels wound up like a taught bow and is shouting at his/her kids for no good reason. This also leads to being unable to sleep for more than a few hours at a time, despite being unbelievably tired.

The BA 747 Classic fleet proved that pilots can't endure the kind of roster that junior 747-400 pilots are now suffering. The Classic experience lead to the "5 trip rule" that Buter has quoted above, however this rule will not be incorporated in the new JSS rostering system that takes over from the January rosters.

There are BA 747-400 pilots in their mid-thirties who are unable to cope and have opted for part time. Sadly the company is unable to grant part time in many cases due to the extraordinary shortage of pilots.

BA has much to offer but the pilots work extremely hard. It is an incredibly profitable airline and this is not due to generosity to it's staff.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Interesting post wireless you could do with a holiday. The sleepy folk are of the view that the worst problem for Nigel's is that you very rarely work the same schedule, so planning rest periods get very difficult albeit each individual manages it in their own different way. So a shift worker working earlies / lates / nights or days / nights know exactly what to do as there isn't that much variety. Then Crews have to deal with TZ transitions (sorry to say EASA FTL is much better than CAP371 in this respect), jet lag, delays, commuting, other hobbies / jobs etc.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.

[wiggy]

But I am surprised at whoever agreed to the the whole CAP thing back in t’ day, emphasis on the number CAP is/ lack of blocks off after LH had their pants pulled right down.

The whole thing worked when I was a lad (and at the risk of proving that the past is another country) because:

1. It was possible to work up to 15 hours below CAP whenever you fancied or needed to, safe in the knowledge that BA couldn’t stick another trip on your line, regardless of whether you had banked hours or not..OTOH the “Martinis” who wanted to pick up the leftover work for cash were nowhere near 900 hours so they could pick up the slack..

That flexibility has gone.

2. BA was willing to run the pilot establishment to some extent to allow point 1.

They are not now.

3. Less frequent services often meant longer trips with embedded shuttles (Up to a week in the likes of HRE or CCS, with a shuttle somewhere on just one or two of those days) . In other words a significant amount of credit towards CAP was earned downroute sitting on your backside by a pool, on a beach or playing golf (i.e. possibly the lifestyle some who are joining are expecting still to find at BA...well ..)...

There are a handful of those sort of trips still around (e.g. NAS with a shuttle, perhaps some longer slips on the 787, Some Caribbean and the 9 day SYD trip on the 777) OTOH long trips don’t appeal to some people but they have their uses for generating downtime whilst still on the company’s dollar, however because of the increase in frequency of services over the years there’s now a heck of a lot of three day stuff which only earns about 20% of CAP....which somebody has to do....

Now of course if :hmm: JSS comes in and if it works as advertised things might change...

[Daddy Fantastic]

Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.

I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.

Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.

What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.

[Riskybis]

Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.

I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.

Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.

What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.

what airline have you come from ? With that many hours (if your used to SH) you may as well go SH and get command in a few years , Or slog it at the bottom of seniority for LH for a looooooong time

[Tay Cough]

I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.

It’s 900 hours over 10.5 months as you get four weeks of leave and two “duty free weeks” (which are broadly the same thing), meaning 85 hours per (worked) month. However, we work on credit hours not flown hours. The annual total target credit hours on longhaul is 1055 (I think), which also includes a credit hour value for leave, sims, etc. It’s no coincidence that when the leave credit, sim credit and so on are removed, the answer gets very close to 900 and as most trip credit is flying hour based (long trips of which there are few are calculated slightly differently), you need to average 85 flying hours per month worked.

[wiggy]

Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.
.

At the risk of sounding flippant but in fact trying to be totally honest I’d say there are at about 4000 people who would also like to understand exactly how the rostering system known as JSS is going to work at BA ..i.e. most of the current pilot workforce.

It’s a trip preferencing system where supposedly you can express options for trips, days off, start times...blah blah..system works it’s way down the pilot seniority list trying to satisfy preferences in some way shape or form...the system is supposed to be introduced in about 4 weeks time so that the rosters it produces will be the one’s we are working to w.e.f. 1 Jan.

However:

At the time of writing there has been a first attempt at a dry run where there were insufficient participants to produce meaningful output, so we have no idea what those rosters would have looked like.

We then had a second dry run where there seems to have been a problem producing results..we are promised them any day now but as of yet nothing - so nobody has any idea what those rosters would have looked like.

We have been promised a third dry run before the system goes live for the January bid.......time is short.....


And now you know about as much about JSS as most of us do......



I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.

..and guess what? We fly 6 hour legs...

For those still wearing rose tinted glasses a warning.. Longhaul at BA is not all 10-14 hour plus sector lengths such as Singapore, Buenos Aries and Hong Kong etc

..Leaving aside the occasional outliers that appear on the 777 or 744 rosters as daytrips such as Madrid and Moscow BA longhaul covers the likes of:

Tel Aviv ( 5 hours, plus or minus), Cairo, (sometimes, 5 hours ish)

Abuja/Lagos/Accra/ Boston,/Montreal and countless others at around 6 hours, plus or minus.

Now the senior guys might pick up two or three Longish sector round trips in the month and then perhaps a short trip to finesse the hours..that works fine....OTOH if you get clobbered with a month of low flight time trips you need to do a lot of days and nights at work to achieve the target hours.

[RexBanner]

I’ll hopefully be moving over to Long Haul in two years time however looking at the rosters of the junior trash on LH leads me to believe that 75% Right to Request will be essential in order to cope and have a life outside of work as a bloke in my fourties by the time it comes around. With the process running at over a year from application to the part time being granted that means possibly banging in a request next year. Whether I’ll be able to afford it I’m not even sure but one thing is for sure, I’m not working myself into an early death just to line the pockets of Alex Cruz and Willie Walsh.

[Wireless]

Would a BA pilot mind explaining what JSS is and how SH and LH monthly trips work on a pilot schedule. Im not employed by BA so am keen to understand the rostering system.

I read a lot about 5 and 6 trips a month but at 900 hours a year one can fly 75 hours a month so I fail to see how you do 5 or 6 LH trips a month unless you are flying 6 hour legs.

Obviously people are not lying about that but as a potential future BA pilot Im trying to see whether SH or LH is for me. I have heard the 744 fleet and trips are terrible but then again I would not know.

What is a new hire likely to get in terms of fleet and base. In my case Im a relatively experienced pilot with jet experience and over 5000 hours but not rated on a BA type.

As mentioned there are stacks of flights that aren’t long on flight time. In isolation block hours are a red herring of judging how throughly exhausting the style of LH BA flies is. You’re out of bed the whole second night of a 3 days trip regardless. its the amount of nights out of bed and the amount of time off between trips. Of course higher block hours per trip theoretically mean less trips required to make cap and less nights out of bed. But there simply aren’t enough (on my fleet anyway) to give respite. With a theoretical high credit, 3 day 20 hour credit trip you’d have to do 4 and a bit of them to make cap. 4.5 this summer. So that’s where the 5 plus trips comes from when you have a mixture. You don’t get many lines of 3 day 20 hour credit trips :)

[cessnapete]

How on earth has BALPA been allowed to agree such punishment on the rostering systems , especially in LH. I retired on the B744 when BA were only allowed to roster 4 Atlantic crossing trips per Bid Period. You could bid for more in MU1 or Open Time, but that was your choice.
Preumably todays pilots are suddenly immune to fatigue as far as BA/BALPA are concerned. And if you did agree to help BA on last minute uncovered trips you could pick up £2000ish overtime to Syd.

[RexBanner]

Because Balpa in BA are A) Sh1t scared of the company and B) only interested in protecting the senior Long Haul boys and their terms and conditions and the rest of us can go hang (especially Short Haul as the general assumption is that nobody in BA really wants to be a Short Haul Pilot and everyone wants to be on a Long Haul fleet long term anyway so it’s an easy give away for concessions to the company). These are the reasons I won’t give Balpa a penny, go on tell me I’m wrong.

[Wireless]

The union in this country is fecking useless. They dally and fiddle. You’ve only got to read the magazine to see they’re nibbling away at the small stuff whilst the big stuff sails by. They’re like a workman on the titanic worrying about wonky table legs. The rest of the world has become more enlightened and forward thinking regarding lifestyle issues and their impact on mortality and health.

Aviation. An arrogant hypocritical industry with regulators full of old flying boys who don’t like change. The attitude hasn’t changed since the 1930s. To prove how full of it they are, if damage to the public were a factor, whatever practice would be nipped in the bud. If it were found that running an engine beyond limits would blow it up, there’d be a rule. But when it comes to pilots health? The response is “it’s down to the pilots”. So compared to the public, you’re sacrificial. And the best bit is, pilots being institutionalised in their professionalism will absolutely not let this affect work. In fact, it’s their private life and own well being that suffers. Pilots will literally sacrifice their well being at the alter of their profession.

We”ve all seen it. The little talks during SEP about “managing fatigue” or “stress”. The pointing out there’s “support” for mental health. As if we’re meant to be wowed by this approach?? Yup, it’s down to you. We want the high standards, high medical levels but we’re blowed if we’re going to help you stand a chance of staying well by addressing the factors. That’s gonna cost too much and would mean the whole system needs rebooting (sharp intake of breath). Thats it, straight out of the 19th century. That’s it, the best a modern regulator and it’s industry can come up with in supposedly the most advanced forward thinking industry around. To paraphrase a film, Rumour control, here are the facts. Stress, fatigue and sleep deprivation shorten your life. And we let these clowns get away with this without blowing the whistle. Like I said, it’s not entirely BA’s fault. We have the CAA for a reason and they’re failing at keeping pace with the 21st century medical and wellbeing view outside of aviation.

[GS-Alpha]

Wireless, that is such an incredibly accurate description of the state of affairs 👍

[The Mixmaster]

Hear Hear Wireless 👏

[wiggy]

How on earth has BALPA been allowed to agree such punishment on the rostering systems , especially in LH. I retired on the B744 when BA were only allowed to roster 4 Atlantic crossing trips per Bid Period.






Bidline began to be hollowed out 10-15 years ago CP., and the rate of hollowing out has increased over the years. I think it was effectively as dead as a Norwegian Blue once Roster Assign came in (the ability of the company to put extra work on your line after Stage 2, regardless of where you were relative to CAP) but the name was kept I think for political reasons, as in “under us you still have Bidline”.

The “why’s” have been hinted at by previous posters so I won’t pour any more fuel on that particular fire. Many of us hope that the recent changes at the top of BA BALPA might improve matters, but there also needs to a readjustment in attitude from some of the line membership who are perhaps still reluctant to appear to be unreasonable to friends and neighbours.

[ETOPS]

These roster/fatigue examples are part of the reason I retired from BA 747 longhaul at age 60 - I could have continued to 65. My problem was the relatively easy time I had over the preceding years as a 767, 777, and 747 Captain enjoying reasonable seniority and usually max 4 trips a month. As the company began to increase the pressure I should have taken part time but the 5 trips in a month 900 hours sort of took me by surprise. My last 2 years both were 900 flying hours to the minute !!

I realise this is a "golden years" sort of post but I hope new joiners realise that things have changed in BA and are likely to remain so - part time is an answer but rostering changes are really the cure. Hope JSS at least shows BA they need more flight crew.

[Wireless]

I was interested to see why I’m feeling so bushed at the min. I’ve just looked back at the past 28 days. In the previous rolling 23 day period there’s been 4 complete trips and one sim. After my next trip in the previous rolling 28 days it’ll be 5 whole trips and one sim.

Quite compact I suppose. But looking about that’s not anything unusual to other folk down the list. And my blindlines over the last 3 weeks look smiliar to how it’s been for people on reserve.

[Stocious]

I think it was effectively as dead as a Norwegian Blue once Roster Assign came in (the ability of the company to put extra work on your line after Stage 2, regardless of where you were relative to CAP) but the name was kept I think for political reasons, as in “under us you still have Bidline”.

Not forgetting of course that Roster Assign was brought in to alleviate the Force Draft epidemic that was so prevalent that summer, and to which so many members were vocal about at the time. At least now we get some advanced notice of being screwed over and the opportunity to swap work/life around a bit in advance, rather than being met at the end of one trip and being told "by the way, see the weekend plans you had with the family tomorrow? Sorry, but now you're off to Abuja".

I know which I'd prefer.

[wiggy]

Not forgetting of course that Roster Assign was brought in to alleviate the Force Draft epidemic that was so prevalent that summer, and to which so many members were vocal about at the time.

You’re not wrong, but that takes us back to the whole issue of establishment and why after years of operating under Bidline with no such epidemic suddenly one started.....I suspect many knew “Bidline was broken” a few years back and it should have been rebranded to reflect the change from the sort of lifestyle control Bidding system the likes of cessnapete and others enjoyed for quite some time. I suspect some simply weren’t prepared to admit it so the name stuck....anyhow with JSS on the way that is all water under the bridge, especially since as it stands “JSS appears to be broke”.....

[Buter]

Because Balpa in BA are A) Sh1t scared of the company and B) only interested in protecting the senior Long Haul boys and their terms and conditions and the rest of us can go hang (especially Short Haul as the general assumption is that nobody in BA really wants to be a Short Haul Pilot and everyone wants to be on a Long Haul fleet long term anyway so it’s an easy give away for concessions to the company). These are the reasons I won’t give Balpa a penny, go on tell me I’m wrong.

Well, that’s easy enough. You re wrong. In fact, you’re wrong on a grand scale.

Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.

Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. We’ve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. There’s a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?

You don’t want to give BALPA a penny? That’s your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothers’ coat tails. Can I assume you’ll be happy to accept the pay rise we’re currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.

Bash the company or the union with facts and you won’t hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and I’ll counter.

All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ain’t great, anymore, but it ain’t complete ****e, either. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s a step up from most places. It’s all your call.

Cheers, y’all.

Buter

[Riskybis]

Hi mate can you please empty your inbox apparently it’s full as my message won’t send regarding BA stuff over PM

[Daddy Fantastic]

Well, that’s easy enough. You re wrong. In fact, you’re wrong on a grand scale.

Nobody in BALPA is scared of BA; far from it, son.

Protecting Long Haul Barons? A well worn argument. We’ve got one of our most respected CC reps leaving his long haul throne to take a Short Haul command. The chairman is a flat earther. The Gatwick reps (shorthaul by definition) are beyond reproach. There’s a shorthaul captain doing awesome work for the training team and the pay team. I suppose you know better than me, though?

You don’t want to give BALPA a penny? That’s your call, dude. Feel free to ride your brothers’ coat tails. Can I assume you’ll be happy to accept the pay rise we’re currently negotiating? Does that make you a hypocrite? You decide.

Bash the company or the union with facts and you won’t hear a word from me. Go public with ill informed opinions and I’ll counter.

All - if you're hoping to join BA, please canvass opinion from all sources. It ain’t great, anymore, but it ain’t complete ****e, either. It’s definitely not for everyone, but it’s a step up from most places. It’s all your call.

Cheers, y’all.

Buter



Hey Buter, what is it in your opinion that has made it not so great anymore?

I dont know if this is true but was told by an ex BA pilot on 777 that BA short haul is now probably the toughest gig in the UK, would you agree with that statement?

Is the pay rise happening anytime soon and will it be better than Easy, Ryanair etc?

[Icanseeclearly]

Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.

Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..

[I'm Off!]

Interesting post wireless you could do with a holiday. The sleepy folk are of the view that the worst problem for Nigel's is that you very rarely work the same schedule, so planning rest periods get very difficult albeit each individual manages it in their own different way. So a shift worker working earlies / lates / nights or days / nights know exactly what to do as there isn't that much variety. Then Crews have to deal with TZ transitions (sorry to say EASA FTL is much better than CAP371 in this respect), jet lag, delays, commuting, other hobbies / jobs etc.
I know a lot of LH crew who have worked out that staying adapted to UK local is often needed to manage such schedules - you have to be pretty hardcore to manage this though although the rewards can be you recover in BA's time rather than your own.

Sorry, Mr Angry, but absolutely not. How can you do that with regular 8 hour time shifts on the West Coast? Get up at midnight with nothing to do and nowhere to go? Recipe for mental health problems long term. Add to that the fact that staying on UK time does not absolve you of the 5-8 night sleep (UK time) that you miss almost completely every month whilst flying to or from various places, making staying on UK time both pointless and impossible...

[Daddy Fantastic]

Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.

Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..



Yes it is always hard to gauge the real story but I also find it a little hard to believe that BA is complete shiite now. Im sure they are not what they used to be due to pressures of competing with LCC operators but I would be surprised if people were fleeing in droves. Now if it was Emirates that is a different story...

Does anybody have any credible information on the new pay for SH/LH at BA and when this new contract would likely happen? Easyet is paying more money I believe and from what I have read but to be honest I would not know.

BA and Easy both seem to be doing a lot of hiring which is a good thing so lets hope the money keeps getting better.

DF

[sudden twang]

Not all rosy in the garden I hear Buter.
SH Capt doing great work for the Training dept? I thought it was a LH TC doing that?
I hear a number of LH TCs are considering resigning from BALPA.
Pay rise for all ?

[sudden twang]

DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.

Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.

The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.

In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.

[Daddy Fantastic]

DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.

Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.

The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.

In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.

ST...A very astute comment. I like the options of world travel and less sectors as well as going home every night and short sectors so as you say one needs to think hard. My concern with SH is can I do it for another 20 to 25 years but as a family man I want to be home.

It also depends on stability, quality of life and of course money. I think both BA and Easy are a safe bet long term with positives and negatives to each company. Its just a case of where would one be happier and which company treats you better?

[RexBanner]

Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan....Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.


For starters, you may not be talking about me but seeing as the context of this conversation is a rebuttal of my comments I’ll assume that you are. Where was I complaining about JSS? I actually have a suspicion for some short haulers it’s going to be better as it gets rid of the problem that in Bidline 95% of the lines are a mixture of daytrips and tours which satisfy virtually nobody. But the crux of it is that I wasn’t even allowed to vote on my future be it JSS or Bidline because I hadn’t been in the company long enough! How unjust is that? Yeah you’ve got thirty years left here but you’re not allowed to have a say in how that will go because you’ve only been here a few months.

It’s my conscious decision to have left the Union, which I am entitled to have made as a grown adult. It doesn’t deserve condescending comments like being called “son” or the seemingly resentful accusation of “riding our coattails”. I’m not going to make any further comments as to my perception of those who hide behind anonymity to talk down so severely to someone on an Internet forum, I’ll just leave it there.

Lets see just how successful the pay negotiations are, I’ll be happy to be proved wrong (and it might even sway my decision whether to rejoin or not) but I’m expecting RPI plus a bit, which in context isn’t really that much of a result, some may even say it would be subpar compared to other companies recently.

[sudden twang]

Rex
I can see clearly could be in breach of the trade descriptions act.
Buter is well Buter. He may do us all some good we’ll have to wait and see.

DF,
LH is not all bad on family life. The problem is foreseeing what you will want in 20 years time when it’s too late to change.

[Wireless]

Sorry, Mr Angry, but absolutely not. How can you do that with regular 8 hour time shifts on the West Coast? Get up at midnight with nothing to do and nowhere to go? Recipe for mental health problems long term. Add to that the fact that staying on UK time does not absolve you of the 5-8 night sleep (UK time) that you miss almost completely every month whilst flying to or from various places, making staying on UK time both pointless and impossible...

Thats it spot on. It is a challenge. I didn’t think to reply to Mr Angry, unless you’ve tried LH, it is a bit of a mystery.

Similar to you mention, whether you adjust to local or not the elephant in the room isn’t the jet lag per say on a 3 day quick fire trips (local light sources, diet, rhythmn of local life) more the rest periods run in multiples of 24 hours. A bit like shift work problems. Means you can’t sleep two proper periods in 24 (unless you’re super human). So like you say, no matter what you do, on a 24 hour layover you’re missing a sleep cycle.

Mr Angry’s post mentioned striving for recovery on company time. The achievable is quite the opposite. Due to previously mentioned rest periods (24/48) that are antagonistic to the circadian rhythm, far from being able to recover on Co time, your time “on clock” is actively further disrupting your sleep cycle each time you undertake another 24/48 rest. Attempting recovery is forced onto days off. And this is where it can become a somewhat futile pursuit; dual aspects of limited time to achieve this and another shift reversal to adjust for within a small time frame. There is often not enough time to recover the sleep deficit and then re adjust your now night shift cycle back to days. Particularly on 2 days off, and noteably if one has any semblance of local life around him/her that is following U.K. time that may detract from a free ability to sleep when required. And that is even before days off are considered to be free of fatigue issues enough to be downtime in their own right; in essence, to experience required personal time free from work inflictions enough to enjoy all the psychological benefits that bestows. After all, we’re not machines!

This is not a unique BA characteristic, however BA do have an increasingly achievable high personal pilot annual hours work rate for a euro LH airline. I’ve noticed it a lot on my fleet with the work rate at the moment with not common rosters characterised with runs of 2 days off post trip. This increasingly effective ability to utilise its worker units (an open question with a new rostering system) is - despite industrial agreements forged in good faith under a different landscape - amplifying the empirically flawed and questionable ethics of the underpinning regulatory protection system that manages humans working for the flying industry.

I find it insightful to at least know and discuss the mechanics of why fatigue starts really ramping up on LH with a packed roster. It’s for differing reasons than SH.

Interesting, I read a study from the FAA mentioned something like no duty must be planned unless it’s conceivable that the Pilot has had a chance to gain 6 hours (or was it 8?) sleep within the preceding 24 hours. I gather this includes the whole duty. So you can’t be landing at 0900 unless between 0900 the day before and then, you’d slept fully and not half arsed on a seat for an hour. If that were the case then most 24 hour lay overs would fall foul of that one. I’ll be honest I don’t know the FAA FTL regs.

[Phantom4]

350. + new entrants read next year,700 courses total,50 Commands LGW 320, 80 LHR SH 70 LH

[Buter]

Rex, as you chose to use the phrase "BALPA is sh!t scared of the company..." and then went on to spout nonsense on post intended for pilots considering joining the company, you won't find it surprising that I don't consider my comments to you terribly condescending and I certainly don't think you were talked down to "severely."

As for anonymity, I've gone by the name Buter (pronounced BOO-TER, by the way) since I was about 12 years old and my identity is no secret on here (or anywhere else, for that matter).

Twang - It's nowhere near as bad as I imagine you've heard. The training committee is indeed headed up by a LH TC, but there is a SH captain on the committee doing great work, too. As for some trainers threatening to leave, yes, I'm aware of the sentiment, but each member makes his/her own decision wrt resignation from the union. Pay talks have just started within BALPA, so we are just at the beginning of the process, I have no idea what the timeline is and wouldn't comment if I did; something like that would only come out through official comms.

DF - The reasons for my opinion have been discussed widely on this thread already. Pension, FA, Bidline, Pay, high CAP's, interpretation of EASA ftl's, etc.. I can't comment on our SH operation as I can't remember the last time I did a 2 crew sector, let alone a 2 hour sector!

Cheers

Buter

[bex88]

Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. It’s not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but it’s how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they don’t have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.

When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.

[wiggy]

A lot of good points well made, though since Buter (and even I thick old me could work out who he was BTW) is one of the new “intake” to the BACC I’d certainly hope criticism at what and who went before isn’t aimed at him personally....no pressure there on the new guys to deliver...no, none at all.....! !!

When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.


That’s certainly very unfortunate but I’ll make the observation that from the lofty heights it has always been kind of hard to understand the enthusiasm some junior colleagues have for JSS... I think if and when JSS gets sorted and once the senior pilots have got their heads around the bidding logic the Junior pilots could quite possibly be shafted vs. how they fared under Bidline...but it certainly isn’t a laughing or chuckling matter... ( and no, I didn’t vote for it).

BTW personally with kids no longer at home like quite a few senior guys I’m quite happy to work weekends ..these days it’s not when I work, it’s where I go.

[rossbaku]

Does anyone have any hints or tips regarding the BA Stage 3 process? Got the email on Friday with the good news. Seems it’ll be done in the 767-300 sim.

Cheers!

[sudden twang]

Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. It’s not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but it’s how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they don’t have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.



Hi Bex,
i don't mean to sound harsh but I can’t let that go.
You ask how BA can pay different salaries for the same job. You say shake up, but not to cut the pay of guys at the top.
You infer your union doesn’t represent some ( you?) but with impossible requirements like that, is there any wonder?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but this forum is to help those looking for jobs. Your views are heartfelt and honest but need to be taken in context to give balance.
For those who haven’t read through all 263 pages here Bex if I remember previous postings correctly joined BA with the bmi takeover so didn’t apply to BA but through no fault of his own ended up here. . He is a junior SH capt. He’s made no secret of not being happy in BA. That in itself is good evidence as to whether BA is a good place to be or not. Bex has also made no secret of looking for other jobs but as far as I can n tell he’s still with BA. That’s good evidence too.
The low pay for junior A320 capts is a quirk but we have high pay for senior P2s. BA has historically worked on a longevity pay system. Whatever the pros and cons it’s what we have. Changing it will be v complex and will probably blow BA BALPA apart.
I don’t see how BA can be expected to “shake up” and level the pay without reducing the higher payscales for both P1 and P2. P1 SH would go senior and P2 LH would go junior. It would only be fair for senior P2s to have a bid for P1 SH but what do they do when all slots are filled? Should more junior P1s be forced into the RHS ? What other option would be fair? Ironically Bex wouldn’t see his bumper pay rise, just a type and seat change. BA would expect that to be nil cost so take the conversion course costs out of the pay budget. Oh and hold recruitment we will have so many internal moves and command courses the training system can’t cope.
And that hopefully brings it back onto recruitment.
One thing often overlooked is that a PP15 P2 when taking a command becomes a PP15 capt. In many airlines you drop to PP1 capt.

[bex88]

Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but it’s really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Don’t get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I don’t think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFO’s on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂

[Phantom4]

Rossbaku. Don’t put your mortgage on it being 767.The brief gives pitch/ power settings for 744 RR and GE and if 767 is tech you will be briefed for 744,Good luck.

[wiggy]

It’s these last 10 posts or so that put me off joining BA at my age. I have a young family with a wife who works long hours.
I understand aviation is a 24 hour 365 day operation but working every weekend because I’m a junior on the seniority list coupled with a low command pay throws a lot of doubts in to the mix.
I have never been a massive fan of seniority giving people the right to every weekend, Xmas new year etc off. I believe there should be compromises but hey ho I know that goes with joining BA. If I didn’t have a young family maybe it wouldn’t bother me. It’s why I think if BA are working so hard with fatigue rising why not go somewhere and at least earn some decent money and be able to retire earlier in life.
My airline isn’t perfect but at least our rostering agreement guarantees at least 1 weekend off a month.


FWIW Xmas is currently one on a points system so as to ensure a degree of fairness, and TBF some people ( self included actually like some of the Xmas Longhaul trips, so they don't all "go" junior. Weekends however can problematic unless you are very near the top of your list....

[Enzo999]

Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but it’s really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Don’t get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I don’t think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFO’s on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂


I would absolutely agree with the above, I have been at BA 2.5 years LHR SH and I can honestly say the last 18 months has been the most challenging of my 15 year career. I personally don’t dislike BA but my wife sure does! My children are 4 and I never see them, my wife works full time during the week and come the weekend is stuck looking after children on her own. She constantly makes jokes about being a single parent and if this continues there is a very real chance she might be. The seniority system disproportionately protects the pay and lifestyle of those at the top and it’s a very difficult pill to swallow but it will never change. As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you don’t mind not seeing your family for the first 5 then go for it there honestly is no where else you will achieve this. But if you want command or long term SH then almost anywhere else might be better for you.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Rossbaku. Don’t put your mortgage on it being 767.The brief gives pitch/ power settings for 744 RR and GE and if 767 is tech you will be briefed for 744,Good luck.

How tough is the sim check? How long is it normally and what does it involve?

[GS-Alpha]

I cannot see there being a great deal of pressure for BA to increase super junior command pay. As far as they are concerned, you join BA as an FO and serve your time as an FO until you gain the seniority for a short haul command perhaps seven or eight years later, by which time your command pay would be more competitive. If a new pilot is lucky enough to join at a time when command seniority is unusually low, they will see it as that new pilot being in the right place at the right time, and so obtaining a super junior command with its associated payrise. There possibly is some pressure to increase junior FO pay, which may then increase the low end command salary as FO pay is currently 75% of command pay across all paypoints.

More likely, if it is ever determined that there is a problem with recruitment numbers or junior pilot retention, then I would predict some kind of bonus payment after x years within the company, rather than a skewing of the salary scale.

This period of super junior short haul commands is almost certainly a blip. We had a recruitment ban for many years, and then suddenly we are in a period of rapid recruitment and postings and promotions movement. As that stabilises, short haul command seniorities will rise again.

[appleACE]

Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt?
Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?

Also there are pay scales listed on pilotjobsnetwork, but when you upgrade from FO to captain do you start with the Year 1 salary or do you count the FO years too? i.e. If you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
Because from what I understand from the ppjn page the FO salary passes the year 1 captain's salary after around 14 years and the time to command on LH is over 15 years.

From the outside the whole system at BA looks daunting, like you get the short end of the stick for the first 10 years or so and only then does it start to pay off.

[wiggy]

Could someone shed some light on how seniority works on different fleets for me please.

Say you start as FO on SH, then move on to LH as FO. Would you then be able to apply for SH captain or do you have to be SH FO to become SH cpt

You can bid LH FO to SH cpt.

Also if you become SH cpt can you then go directly to LH cpt or do you have to go as LH FO and apply again when you have the seniority?

You can bid to go SH cpt to LH capt.

(health warning..that’s how it works under the current agreement)


you were an FO for 14 years would you start with the year 1 captain salary or with the year 14.
.

year 14..you “slide across” pay points...

[Wireless]

As for joining BA I would say if your ambition is to be a LH SFO for at least 20 years and you don’t mind not seeing your family for the first 5..


I indentify with your post and found it interesting. Just a point I think worth highlighting. I’m junior LH. Just a point of fairness to senior LH in trying to be representative in what I’ve noticed.

For folk looking in from the outside, CAP doesn’t drop as you become more senior. There’s no senior full timers flying 3 short trips a month for example. Chatting to friends outside of it this misconception does seem to exist - “get in a few years and write your own roster” type of gig.

Previously under the old (bidline) system you could bid for lines that had a higher amount of credit efficient trips. These type trips involved more hours over a shorter time frame. But this is in context. You can only work with what’s provided by BA on the dinner plate. Granted, you have more control the more senior you are, and JSS is being watched with interest to see how this is affected once the line system disappears.

The ability to afford part time on PP24 aside, I’ve rarely seen full time senior LHs who are away a huge amount less from home than the juniors. Many still have the trip/2 day off/trip rash somewhere on a leave free line on my fleet. Granted they might fly to less unpopular places and have a couple of weekends off. But only they can answer whether that’s a tradable commodity with how bushed they are overall. That many are going for part time would say otherwise.

Certainly FA and problems with using bank, have caused dismay from everyone. I mentioned in a previous post, and certainly seems to have been highlighted by a couple of retired posters - that when the agreements were forged, the system worked due to the then landscape of the BA operation. BA, naturally doing what businesses do have prodded and poked around, discovering chinks in the armour, elegantly finding work arounds to exploit naively created thin walls and side effects of the system.

A new rostering interface could be (I say could be, I don’t know) well placed to push further against these weak areas of the bidline rules. Just like any business, they will do what money makers will do. I’ve alluded to some of my personal opinions - I think this new efficiency is highlighting fundamental issues in the industry rather than my fixating and targeting my opinions solely at company level.

I think it quite telling that part time is something highly sought, not just in BA. This fact completely disarms a company convincingly asserting aircrew are money driven entities using lifestyle as a bargaining chip. Quite the opposite, it starkly tells a different story. Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.


I always have to remember there’s plenty of folk who’ve never worked outside of BA and until recent years perhaps limited experience of what life is like when you butt up against the unsavoury ramifications of “efficient” FTL construction. At that point do you target your dismay with the local rules or with the regulations that allow these practices? I’d argue for long term protection of aircrew wellbeing you have to tackle both - two pronged. At the local coal face level and also at the wider mother hen level.

[GS-Alpha]

Fatigue and well being aren’t tradeable with income and that many are being forced to forgo one for the other points - to me - at the trajectory and current state for aircrews to find such lack of protection they’re being forced to try and mitigate the affects themselves.

I could not agree more!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO

[Wireless]

Wireless
This is certainly true in my experience crew members particularly Captains but also F/O's are making such choices. There are other reasons however rather just fatigue;
The tax man and his thresholds.
Commuting
In the case of one UK AOC if you live outside the normal commuting distances (by road or air) you have to have a 90% contract (the % may be less 75%?) and rather than having the 10% in leave its given in days off so crews get more days off in the roster and thus less commuting and by default fatigue.
Its the way forward IMHO

Thats a fair point and would be wrong if I disagreed.

People are different and of course there are folk perfectly happy on full time with various companies who request part time for other reasons other than to do with health or wellbeing.

I honestly think there’s enough part time requests across the UK airline industry in recent times that are down to the job affecting employees adversely, not just by fatigue, such that it’s more than notable.

I mentioned fatigue but that is far from the only factor. There’s chronic stress and it’s associated symptoms, homelife disruption, health issues due to shift work.

[NoCtot]

We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.

[wiggy]

Do you know many long tours were to be had and were the long tours restricted by any inhibitors?

If there aren’t many and there weren’t subject to an inhibitor then I guess they’ve been corralled by the senior guys....one of the potential pitfalls of JSS “as is”....

(For those not into the language “inhibiters” are restrictions placed into JSS that effect certain trips (e.g. Singapore,) to prevent a handful of senior individuals getting all the plum work..e.g. stop somebody bidding for 3 or 4 Singapore’s in a month. )

[RexBanner]

We just got our first look into what JSS has got to offer us when it is introduced in January. It has pretty much resulted in the worse possible roster I could possibly imagine being a SH commuter. Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me) I bid for tours as long as possible. No other criteria, not bothered about weekends, lates or earlies. Got given a roster by JSS consisting of only 2 day trips, all the other longer tours have as reason i didn't get allocated it "Given to more senior crew member".

Just a warning of what to expect of the new bidding system.

Exactly why I’m escaping down to Gatwick, it’s a known quantity and have a bolt hole down there I can use for peanuts. The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didn’t and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.

[wiggy]

....The only qualifier I would put NoCtot is how many people actually participated in the dry run. I know i didn’t and I would imagine the results are fairly meaningless in terms of output as the participation was somewhat limited.


I don’t think I’d be breaching any rules if I said that according to a source on Yammer it was about 65%, plus or minus not a lot for both seats on the LHR Airbus Fleet.

[RexBanner]

Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer it’s become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!

[wiggy]

Well Wiggy from a cursory glance on Yammer it’s become clear what an utter turd we have voted for, thanks Balpa!

Well I’m sure somebody will be along again the t*** about this again but as I recall it:

1. Those formerly at the top of BA BALPA decided to effectively combine a vote on a rostering system with a vote on an element of our pay.....I have to say that IMHO was not that BACC’s finest hour.

2. The membership then voted .....

[RexBanner]

Purely a facetious comment on this occasion Wiggy in the light of previous discussion. :ok:

[wiggy]

Purely a facetious comment on this occasion Wiggy in the light of previous discussion. :ok:


Understood:)..good luck at Gatwick :ok:

[Wireless]

Just checked out the JSS yammer. 6 trips/ 2 days off plus leave on the dry run type thing.

Reading the Yammer comments is very similar to reading those now famous amazon reviews of using “Veet for men” on your gentleman vegetables.

Wonder of the lack lack of participation affected that or if the AI is doing exactly as the AI would do (I think calling it intelligent probably a stretch)?

[Doug E Style]

Being in the top third of the SH bidding group (over 75% behind me)

I couldn’t help wondering, are you in the top third (over 67% behind you) or the top quarter (over 75% behind you)?

[NoCtot]

I couldn’t help wondering, are you in the top third (over 67% behind you) or the top quarter (over 75% behind you)?


hahaha nice one, that is the current SH fatigue starting to kick in ;-)

67% behind me indeed.

All the rosters are now published internally. The junior guys on LH and especially the B777 are getting absolutely hammered, really do feel sorry for them. Those rosters are just pure evil and unbearable (6,7 and even 8 trips a month).

[RexBanner]

Reading Yammer it reminds me very much of the South Park “The Human CentiPad” episode mocking Apple’s Terms and Conditions (and the lack of reading thereof before clicking agree) whereby the users are turned into a Human Centipede (it was in the small print) with Steve Jobs, unable to comprehend the discomfort and dissatisfaction of those people now stitched together, forcefully and scornfully making the point to them that “you agreed to this!!!”

[Wireless]

Reading Yammer it reminds me very much of the South Park “The Human CentiPad” episode mocking Apple’s Terms and Conditions (and the lack of reading thereof before clicking agree) whereby the users are turned into a Human Centipede (it was in the small print) with Steve Jobs, unable to comprehend the discomfort and dissatisfaction of those people now stitched together, forcefully and scornfully making the point to them that “you agreed to this!!!”


:) ha ha!

like I say put me in mind of the veet reviews. For example this one pasted from amazon. I found that the letters “JSS” and “roster” could be comfortably substituted into the review and it still bared a striking resemblance to the comments on yammer . Particularly heeding the lesson regarding the rules. Indulge me if you will...

“Being a loose cannon who does not play by the rules the first thing I did was ignore the warning and smear JSS all over my (unmentionables). The rosters I knew and loved are gone now. In their place is a maroon coloured bag of agony which sends stabs of pain up my body every time it grazes against my thigh or an article of clothing. I am suffering so that you don't have to. Heed my lesson. “

[Wireless]

Looking at the dry run rosters it is quite amazing. Never have I seen such a clear change as you scroll down the seniority. If you scroll fast it’s actually like a flick book animation with more and more work blocks appearing per line and the credit going towards 100 hours the further down the lines you get. The 777 and 747 really illustrate this.

looks like it should be renamed STAABRS - six trip and a bit rostering system or JFS - junior fatigue system.

Now, keeping ones hair on for a second, I don’t know how accurate all this dry run stuff is compared to what it’ll be like when everyone is involved. Also, I think even BA will recognise allow that kind of run rate to go on and they’ll have an issue with crews dropping off the operational perch pretty quickly and in large order. So as bad as it looks on the dry runs, the actual product might be different (says searching for optimism). I hope so anyway!

[ETOPS]

Hi Buter,

What the heck happened to MP ?? Sounds like a major upset - hope it wasn't over JSS.

[hunterboy]

With any luck, the fatigue levels will go through the roof. It needs hundreds of pilots to go fatigued as it’s only when BA start cancelling flights due to shortages will they recruit more. I’m astounded at how many pilots soldier on flying 5 or more trips a month. On long haul, that would probable mean 5 nights out of bed without any sleep. Is that really how we should be operating aircraft in the 21st century? 2 pilots across the Atlantic overnight, without any rest? Controlled rest doesn’t really cut it i’m afraid.

[Buter]

Hi Buter,

What the heck happened to MP ?? Sounds like a major upset - hope it wasn't over JSS.
Contact him directly. He will be more than happy to explain.

Hunter - with very rare exception, each flight for me is 2 nights out of bed.

Cheers

Buter

PS - Damn, just hit 100 posts! Took 15 years. Time to move on, I guess.

[sun shines every day]

Hello all,

Any invitations for the A320 LGW assessment lately? Is Captain position realistic for experienced applicants in <18 months for LGW? Will LHR transfer be possible?

Thank you

[NLP]

Hello all,

Any invitations for the A320 LGW assessment lately? Is Captain position realistic for experienced applicants in <18 months for LGW? Will LHR transfer be possible?

Thank you

Yes, Captain within 18 months is possible. Latest rumours are everyone who has bid for a LGW command in 2019 will get it. LHR transfer as a FO is no problem, in fact you can probably tell them you’d prefer LHR and start there. LHR Captain is harder as you will need the seniority for a LHR command. Latest rumours for LHR command is ~3500 on a ~4350 pilot workforce.

Disclaimer: it’s rumour and appearantly very fluid at the moment.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Yes, Captain within 18 month is possible. Latest rumours are everyone who has bid for a LGW command in 2019 will get it. LHR transfer as a FO is no problem, in fact you can probably tell them you’d prefer LHR and start there. LHR Captain is harder as you will need the seniority for a LHR command. Latest rumours for LHR command is ~3500 on a ~4350 pilot workforce.

Disclaimer: it’s rumour and appearantly very fluid at the moment.


Anybody know how long it is taking after the initial online application to get an interview, providing one is successful with the online assessment? I applied about 10 days ago and wondering how long it could roughly take.

I applied as NTR FO but as experienced pilot with jet time and over 5000 hours.

[Thegreenmachine]

Anybody know how long it is taking after the initial online application to get an interview, providing one is successful with the online assessment? I applied about 10 days ago and wondering how long it could roughly take.

I applied as NTR FO but as experienced pilot with jet time and over 5000 hours.

5 months for me between initial application, invite for aptitude testing, invite for group exercise, invite for sim assessment.

[Elw18]

02/08/18 - Application submitted
21/08/18 - Invited for stage 1
31/08/18 - Stage 1
03/09/18 - Outcome stage 1
08/10/18 - Stage 2
12/10/18 - Outcome stage 2 - waiting for sim date

[Daddy Fantastic]

02/08/18 - Application submitted
21/08/18 - Invited for stage 1
31/08/18 - Stage 1
03/09/18 - Outcome stage 1
08/10/18 - Stage 2
12/10/18 - Outcome stage 2 - waiting for sim date

I presume invited for stage 1 on 21/08/18 means a face to face interview as opposed to the online assessment which was already complete.

[Elw18]

I presume invited for stage 1 on 21/08/18 means a face to face interview as opposed to the online assessment which was already complete.

Stage 1 was maths, verbal reasoning and capacity test. Stage 2 interview, group exercise and Q&A presentation. Stage 3 is sim check.

[efarto]

Came from purple coloured turbo prop operator this summer and despite missing the friendly faces in the crew room, no regrets at all. Have much more time off, feel more looked after. Some may say it’s not the best job in the world but it definitely suits me. The control over the roster is unbelievable, junior bidding aside I have much more control over my home life.

[wiggy]

How did your JSS dry run work out? :hmm:

[RexBanner]

The control over the roster is unbelievable, junior bidding aside I have much more control over my home life.

Control over your home life on blind lines and (if you really did come in over the summer) reserve every other month? Pull the other one!

[GS-Alpha]

The control over the roster is unbelievable. I’m looking forwards to your comments on this subject come January. The step change reduction in the quality of junior rosters is indeed going to be unbelievable. There will be plenty of recruitment though, because we’ll likely see the largest number of resignations in the history of BA pilots.

[170SVDG]

Do you have 2018 payscales??

Thanks,

[wiggy]

Well I guess in fairness roster stability might be improved, that is a common claim, but “control”??? Even if control (define) was good relative to the purple lot that’s all moot looking ahead not that far into the future....

Anyway folks, on that subject don’t forget, last ever BA Bidline Stage One bid due out tomorrow

[RexBanner]

The step change reduction in the quality of junior rosters is indeed going to be unbelievable.

Agreed, BA are going to have to manage this very, very carefully indeed because, once word gets out about how brutal the rosters are at the bottom end of the P2 List on Long Haul (and word will get out), the company will have a recruitment crisis. No one in their right mind is going to want to join to be fatigued senseless flying 6 low credit trips with two days off between each every month. We’ve seen how emirates has a recruitment crisis partly because of the fatigue and how word has spread like wildfire about how dreadful it is out there. Make no mistake, it’s BA’s turn next and I’m not overdramatising this. The junior rosters (and therefore the quality of life) on Long Haul, if it’s anything like the JSS run going forward, are going to be absolutely frickin’ horrendous.

[efarto]

How did your JSS dry run work out? :hmm:

didn’t get to do one

i appreictae JSS may change things too but even with the worse, I feel much less fatigued than previous outfit.

I guess my requirements are a lot less, my home life felxibile so my JSS commands will be short.

Didnt mean to start a war , but from coming from somewhere where the workload was high and control was low, just trying to point out that I’m glad I made the move, and it’s not all doom and gloom. My initial post maybe should of come with a warning that this post contains something positive, alert the managers. Anyone looking to come to BA from a similar background I’d reccomend coming. After all this is a BA recruitment forum, not a winging about BA forum.

Im happy to be in a better place, but I’m sure you’ll all try and convince me otherwise

[Phantom4]

Plenty more people will join from Purple Airways.They are a quality product and their CX is a problem.

[efarto]

Perhaps so, does that mean now I have a little perspective, that others may have lost?

Regarding blind line, that totally suited me. Swapped most of it to get things to work for me. Also a seeded blind line worked for me too. Whilst I realise I’ll never be in Cape Town every Monday to Friday I’m happy with what I get. Money’s good for working extra hard and I’ve had much more useful time at home.

Having a preference is a new thing to me, and most others from a previous airline. By not having a choice (blind line, fallback, max trips) it’s no different to what I’ve come from. But instead there’s a warm meal in front of me and a bit of job security. It ain’t all bad folks!

[RexBanner]

Efarto the point is seeded blind lines are gone. Forever. Say hello to Kuwait, Lagos, Abuja, Riyadh etc every single month. You’ve swapped duties? Show me an airline that doesn’t allow you to do that. I know for a fact we could at Flybe, I was there too. I’m not trying to rub it in but life is about to get really, really s*** for junior people. That absolutely is relevant information for recruitment going forward and a BA recruitment thread.

[wiggy]

i appreictae JSS may change things too but even with the worse, I feel much less fatigued than previous outfit.
How do you know what the worse will be if you didn’t participate in a dry run?
Given you didn’t have you had a look at the results of the dry run and got an idea of what work pilots of your seniority ended up with?

As for being less fatigued now, well that is a good thing no doubt but it is a consequence of rostering under Bidline. Maybe we can revisit this conversation after 6 months under JSS where, as our esteemed colleagues have pointed out, there are no more blindlines, seeded trips, etc, and much more scope for much more efficient utilisation of assets (us).

Fundamentally I’ll be honest and say I think it is a bit misleading to start encouraging people to “come on in, the water is lovely,” based on rosters worked under a very shortly to be defunct rostering system...

I guess my requirements are a lot less, my home life felxibile so my JSS commands will be short.

Lots can rightly claim that (self included), it guarantees nothing...FWIW a lot of people who put in short commands for the dry runs were suprised by the level of satisfaction they didn’t achieve.

[Wireless]

Agree with many of above. Suspect like many of us I’ve kept my mouth stchtumb on this thread re further gen whilst we still digest the results. I, like others joined the firm to be told bidline that was trumpeted about so much during the Q and A was going. Well that was a nice start...

Others still have a choice. I think this is serious, and folk shouldn’t under estimate how this may feature on their wish list. Whilst we have to be accurate and empathise with new guys, all we have seen are practices with the system - but, we are all making educated perceptions of it (emphasis on that bit). It would be false if we gave outside folk the idea this will definately all blow over and amount to just a minor change.

I’ve flown LH elsewhere and, also at the small regional airline mentioned above (a while ago now). Can only say people must have worked in some really **** places if they think those dry run LH rosters look ok. Either that or they’re new to LH and have never flown anything other than BLR rosters.

LH tends to get people after some years. I’ve had benefit (?) of some LH rosters that featured reversals like those on the dry run. They will total you over years. Fecking awful.

I’m looking to exit stage left. Seems to be a case of “too late now”. It won’t get over turned. Thoroughly regret joining and actually quite annoyed about it all. I joined this outfit having just left one firm where the senior Gods sold the juniors down the river.

Anyone thinking of joining look yourself in the mirror and say the words lifestyle and health. Ask how important they are to you and your family. Basically right now, anyone who tells you they KNOW are misleading - they’re working off old and outdated info (bidline is dead). All of us, right now are essentially estimating. It comes down to how safe are these estimates. Read between the lines in the above posts is all I’d say. Suffice the evidence is pointing that these are the two things you MAY WELL give up.

Lifestyle & health.


HEALTH WARNING - NON OF US HAVE FLOWN ONE OF THESE NEW ROSTERS YET.

[efarto]

Efarto the point is seeded blind lines are gone. Forever. Say hello to Kuwait, Lagos, Abuja, Riyadh etc every single month. You’ve swapped duties? Show me an airline that doesn’t allow you to do that. I know for a fact we could at Flybe, I was there too. I’m not trying to rub it in but life is about to get really, really s*** for junior people. That absolutely is relevant information for recruitment going forward and a BA recruitment thread.






True re swapping, but with so many hoops to jump through and rules to adhere too, its so much easier here.

Kuwait is swappable Free dry cleaning and breakfast can’t be that bad. Folk love Lagos for the lack of nights rest needed and I’m sure Abujah is just lovely this time of year. Sure beats a 6 sector day.

That at aside if I wanted to travel the amazing popular palaces I’d of applied to mixed fleet not DEP. Still happy to fly an amazing machine with mostly great people. Why does it all have to be bad?

[Riskybis]

I’m so sick of new joiners coming in and telling us how wonderful it all is , it has changed since I have been here AND it will change agin !! I am fatigued constantly and I can’t wait for my lifestyle to be f#cked under the new roster system

[efarto]

I’m so sick of new joiners coming in and telling us how wonderful it all is , it has changed since I have been here AND it will change agin !! I am fatigued constantly and I can’t wait for my lifestyle to be f#cked under the new roster system

perhaps, but my original post was to point out that it’s better than some people’s previous airline.

Over and out.

[RexBanner]

Wireless has made some of the most consistently brilliant posts I’ve ever read on this forum over the last couple of weeks or so and he has completely nailed it again with his last post.

[170SVDG]

Do you have 2018 payscales??

Thanks,

Anyone able to reply me?? :uhoh:

[Wireless]

. Still happy to fly an amazing machine with mostly great people. Why does it all have to be bad?

Hi Efarto.

Sorry to chime into your reply. You make some points that are very good to respond to. If you don’t mind me asking, you sound quite new to LH?

The problem is...some things are just not tradeable commodities. And selling ourselves as such under a Faustian bargain is terribly misguided however well meant in eagerness to display positivity. Its like catnip to business owners. We really shouldn’t help them line our early boxes. Between them and the regulators they already think Pilots cry wolf about lifestyle and stress and can be bought out by a new jumbo, a few dollars and a half baked FTL scheme. Non of us are Egyptian Faroes. We can’t take that stuff with us.

New equipment, nice destinations. All tend to be currency amongst people very new to LH. It’s no accident they rarely feature in the dailies of folk doing it a few years. Is that any coincidence? Ask why. It is no accident.

I’d venture further, if their personal life, and health balance is safe, then those of course can be a source of side pleasure. But they are not trade-able, and in many of us those little extras become eclipsed very quickly by more pressing issues.

[FACoff]

I’m not trying to rub it in but life is about to get really, really s*** for junior people.


No one knows that for a fact yet. A third of the airline didn't even bid in the last JSS run and the parameters they're using are apparently changing every time. A good proportion of the people I fly with don't even understand how to bid properly. Surely it's little wonder some of the rosters aren't what they could/should be - even for those further up the list.

It's a shame to be losing bidline, but frankly if JSS can produce rosters any worse than those I've had as a P2 on the airbus this summer, I'll be quite impressed. I agree though, BA do need to be careful. If the seniority gradient really does go as vertical as it seems it may, not only will they lose their ability to attract people (arguably happening now anyway), they'll start bleeding pilots as well.

[Reversethrustset]

Currently working my notice to join LH, I'm having second thoughts now after reading this thread

[G SXTY]

Long haul, around 3 years in, and previous experience with Exeter Airlines and the Middle East.

BA is far from perfect, but life so far has been pretty gentlemanly – helped in recent months by some of my fleet’s work being picked up by others. However, my JSS dry run roster was utterly, utterly horrific. 6 trips, 12 days off, minimum rest between trips and East, West, Middle East, you name it.

It looked horribly like an Emirates / Qatar / Flydubai roster, and if the real JSS rosters are anything like that, I’d be fatigued with a month – two months tops. I really hope I’m proved wrong, but I suspect there’s a rostering horror show coming down the track.

[wiggy]

You sound like you are mixed fleet. They get fed up after about 6 months, then they leave to go and finish their A levels.

Just to show there’s always an exception that proves the rule etc...

On my second most recent mixed fleet trip whilst passing the time in idle chit chat (“what did you do before BA....”) we discovered that our forward galley team’s qualifications were as follows:

One M. Phil Mathematics (Oxbridge) then the City.........
One B.Sc Maths
One B.Sc Economics (which according to her made her “the thick one” out of the three.......)

[RexBanner]

No one knows that for a fact yet. A third of the airline didn't even bid in the last JSS run and the parameters they're using are apparently changing every time. A good proportion of the people I fly with don't even understand how to bid properly. Surely it's little wonder some of the rosters aren't what they could/should be - even for those further up the list..

The argument that because a third of people didn’t bid we can expect the land of milk and honey in comparison when everyone gets involved is completely bogus and I don’t know where that understanding has come from. The work has still been allocated around all pilots, the junior guys aren’t picking up the remainder of the work amongst them whilst that segment of the workforce has been given the month off. There isn’t a great deal to be positive about to be honest and, if anything, everyone piling in is only going to make matters worse for the junior bods as the seniority gradient will become steeper.

[wiggy]

As you rightly say the non bidders were rostered (? Fallback) so the bidders didn’t get loaded up artificially, though the trips the non bidders got and spacing thereof might have been sub optimal (in their eyes) to some extent.

I suspect for the first few months those who have got their heads round the system will do well and some of the junior pilots will I’m sure profit from the ignorance of some above....however I reckon by Easter or not long most of us (even me) will have grasped enough of the basics to make i decent stab at a bid and that’s when we’ll be seeing how JSS vs, seniority really shakes out.

[bex88]

In 17 rolling days I have worked 14........no wonder my friends in the LOCO’s won’t even consider BA when they know the reality of our rostering

[GS-Alpha]

efarto

I always find it entertaining when people swap from short haul to long haul and tell me how easy long haul is, be that from within the company or as a DEP. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; 99% of fresh long haulers feel like you. They recover almost overnight from the extreme tiredness they felt on short haul, and they enjoy having a bit of time off down route and visiting the new destinations. They hardly even notice the time changes and the nights out of bed because they are not long term fatigued and they never have been. We have all been there!

A couple of years of long haul punishment under JSS and I guarantee you will change your tune.

[FACoff]

14 days on in 17... long term fatigue on LH... yet people soldier on and refuse to report fatigued. We're our own worst enemy.

[wiggy]

Yes it attracts all types, just to note I wasn't having a dig at the crew merely illustrating the point that flying long haul for a few months is easy..

Nah don’t worry I didn’t take it as a dig at all...:ok: .Funny thing about mixed Fleet is you get extremes...lots obviously aren’t that long out of school (I gather our first lot with d.o.b’s of 2000 are on line.. g** I feel old.....ooh, that’s cos I am:sad: ) OTOH it has given the opportunity for some who have had long careers in completely different fields to basically take a career break and travel the world for a year or two...it can make for some interesting conversations..

...and yes, I completely agree with your point about Longhaul and how the fatigue builds.

[clvf88]

Given all the negativity regarding lifestyle and health, what is the overall advice here? Is this a caution regarding the early years with light at the end of the tunnel, or is the suggestion not to join at all? Asking as a concerned potential joiner.

[bex88]

FACoff: that’s SH....

[Riskybis]

I would say if you join , do so with your eyes wide open !!
It is still a good company to work for , BUT it is going down hill rapidly !
The light at the end of the tunnel was always the LH life ! But that has long gone

[FACoff]

FACoff: that’s SH....

Which makes it worse - you don't even benefit from the time off down route. I suppose I'm just amazed that BA have managed to engineer an environment where they can work people to the absolute bone and ensure they're too afraid to dig their heels in and say no.

Riskybis - would you say yours is a common view of BA long haul?

[Riskybis]

Which makes it worse - you don't even benefit from the time off down route. I suppose I'm just amazed that BA have managed to engineer an environment where they can work people to the absolute bone and ensure they're too afraid to dig their heels in and say no.

Riskybis - would you say yours is a common view of BA long haul?

well as the old saying goes “ each to their own” , I have been in for 6 years . Been on the 787 for 2 , at first it was like a Valhalla compared to SH (like many of our colleagues from Flybe are feeling) but it’s starting to take its toll on me and my family , I am unhappy and tired most of the time (could be because I’m a grumpy ba@tard) . The new roster system is terrifying me I can’t imagine doing more work , but I’m sure there is a way !

[Dracarys]

For balance, I really liked the sample roster JSS gave me and I'm still nearer the bottom of the pile than the top. I hope it wasn't a fluke and will reflect my rosters going forward. One drawback for me with Bidline has always been that the trip lines of work are too mixed up (e.g. half a dozen early day trips in the first half of the month followed by a late four day tour and then a few more day trips and then maybe a standover or a night Moscow), ultimately satisfying nobody's preferences for the types of work they like doing. The very few lines that are genuinely brilliant lines will get snapped up by the top two or three guys on the list and everyone else is left to compromise to some extent. And the only way to subsequently get rid of the stuff you don't want is by swapping with other people. Most guys (and girls) I fly with have preferences for particular things, and (weekends off excluded) it seems there are more or less enough of those "things" to go around (day trips for the day trippers, tours for the tourers etc).

[GetTheQRH]

Does anyone know roughly what TAFB/Time Away From Base Pay adds up to in addition to basic salary in an average year?
TIA!

[Dracarys]

Does anyone know roughly what TAFB/Time Away From Base Pay adds up to in addition to basic salary in an average year?
TIA!


For me it has averaged at £870 per month. I'm Full-Time, Heathrow-based Short Haul with a preference for tours.

[Stocious]

For balance, my November has 14 days work, every weekend off (3 long weekends) It's not all doom and gloom!

[GS-Alpha]

For balance, my November roster is awesome. It is the fiirst time I have had a ‘normal’ workload roster all year mind.

[Northern Monkey]

The truth is, no one will really know what JSS is like until we have a few months of live bidding where everyone is regularly participating. If it turns out to be as bad as some people expect, BA will have a massive problem in terms of recruitment and retention and will have to address it.

I mourn the loss of bidline as much as anyone else, but I can't believe its going to be as apocalyptic as some suggest.

[Tay Cough]

To all who want to join, keep a close eye on this thread over the next few months. It will be extremely telling.

If if things go as I expect, these are my predictions. Call it an educated guess.

Practically no-one will leave a command anywhere else to go to BA in either SH or LH.

No FO from the usual suspects will even entertain joining BA short haul (future “cadets”, your time may have come).

No FO from the usual suspects aged much over 30 will want to come to longhaul as the junior lifestyle will not be compatible with young family life (not sure it is currently either to be fair).

There will always be exceptions, I appreciate that. My bet is most of those exceptions will have become fed up with opening the curtains in the morning and seeing beige. They’ll be the ones who’ve made their money.

I think BA’s day of reckoning is close.

[sun shines every day]

Yes, Captain within 18 months is possible. Latest rumours are everyone who has bid for a LGW command in 2019 will get it. LHR transfer as a FO is no problem, in fact you can probably tell them you’d prefer LHR and start there. LHR Captain is harder as you will need the seniority for a LHR command. Latest rumours for LHR command is ~3500 on a ~4350 pilot workforce.

Disclaimer: it’s rumour and appearantly very fluid at the moment.





Thank you NLP! :ok:

I've tried to read this long thread as far back as I could looking for the most accurate and complete disclosable information any of us can get. BA seems like a good (but not great) gig. I guess life is not perfect.

One concern I see people getting is the holy pound vs days off. I guess it would help if the airline could guarantee some 15 consecutive days off plus commuting option to our front door and a million in the bank every month for our wives to spend in shoes and handbags. Don't get me wrong this is my kind of employer too, but it would bankrupt soon.

[hunterboy]

I would leave it a couple of months after Jan though, as I think there will be more than a few disgruntled pilots upset with their rosters in the first few months of JSS bidding until we learn how the system works. Once things bed down and the union tweaks a few parameters as necessary, we will know whether BA will be seen as a long term gig or not.

[wiggy]

Yep, Easter will have given people four bids under JSS, most will be some way up the learning curve and an overall picture of senority vs. rosters will be emerging.

It is only then that we will have a handle on how much control the new system makes it possible for individuals to really have vs. how many are going to be on blindlines in all but name due to the consequences of Global Constraints/crew repair and the unlocking of rosters.

TBH I’m sceptical as to how much significant tweaking BALPA will be able to do once JSS is in place, so it’s a case of fingers crossed.

[Thegreenmachine]

Does anyone know how long people are swimming for? Recently joined the pool.

[Reversethrustset]

I waited two weeks and a colleague waited a week.

[LondonLenny]

Hi Guys,
anyone booked in for a Sim Slot next week?
I’m on the early slot Monday 5th and would appreciate getting to know the other person before the day. So if its you, drop me a message.

[VJW]

Hi Guys,
anyone booked in for a Sim Slot next week?
I’m on the early slot Monday 5th and would appreciate getting to know the other person before the day. So if its you, drop me a message.


You can message BA and have them forward your info onto your sim partner. That's what mine did to get hold of me a few years back.

[Dutchflyer]

Hi everyone,

At the moment I am in the holding pool for about 2 weeks now. I did not receive my Sim feedback yet. Anyone knows how long that normally takes?

Thanks!

[shabon]

Dutchflyer if you havent received feedback from the sim you aren't in the holdpool (just yet!) when you get a yes from the sim then you are. When I went through it took me almost a month to get my response from the sim, which was bloody annoying!

all the best

[kendrick47247]

Dutchflyer if you havent received feedback from the sim you aren't in the holdpool (just yet!) when you get a yes from the sim then you are. When I went through it took me almost a month to get my response from the sim, which was bloody annoying!

all the best

That's not really the case at all. You can have a yes from the sim, not receive your sim performance feedback, and very much be in the holdpool (as I assume is exactly the case here)

[Dutchflyer]

Dutchflyer if you havent received feedback from the sim you aren't in the holdpool (just yet!) when you get a yes from the sim then you are. When I went through it took me almost a month to get my response from the sim, which was bloody annoying!

all the best

I did receive the Yes for the sim though. I am just a bit confused as it is stated in the “assessment outcome” email that a sim feedback will be send shortly after the said email. I am quite fed up with my current employer, that’s why I might be a tad impatient ;)

[RexBanner]

Some rare optimism from me, I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised by the results of dry run 3 with JSS however they have to be treated with caution as global constraints and crew repair were not in play. My line was very similar to those unobtainable commuter friendly ones in Stage 1, the ones that always go to the same 6/7 people. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out though, especially for Long Haul.

[Doug E Style]

Dutchflyer, have you considered KLM? I ask because the word is that an unspecified number of Orange “Nigels” are leaving (or are about to leave) to go back home. Might be worth thinking about.

[Tay Cough]

Some rare optimism from me, I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised by the results of dry run 3 with JSS however they have to be treated with caution as global constraints and crew repair were not in play. My line was very similar to those unobtainable commuter friendly ones in Stage 1, the ones that always go to the same 6/7 people. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out though, especially for Long Haul.

Rex,

Unless you are towards the top of the pile, I would take the result with a large pinch of salt. The accepted wisdom is that Global Constraint and Crew Repair will go quite a way north, meaning what you’ve seen (bearing in mind there were a proportion of “fake” trips there) is going to be quite different to what you actually get.

[RexBanner]

Tay Cough I did say treat it with caution but I’m 60% off the top at the moment of the P32L status list. I’d imagine I’ll be north of 50% at the very, very least by 2019 end if recruitment is as forecast. There’s enough tours going around to grab enough of them at that seniority and crew repair isn’t getting that far up. My point is it will be possible to gain access to “commuter lines” far easier than it is now with bidline, which is a good thing for some. If anything else it shows I’m doing the right things with my bid, even if I may be shafted with the real thing.

[Jumbo2]

Afraid to get the commuter lines on the P32L you need to be in the top 25%. I doubt JSS is going to chance that much.

[RexBanner]

Except it will Jumbo2 because you’re ignoring the fact that most of the lines in bidline are preconstructed lines which are basically a mixture of daytrips and tours. There’s only a handful of commuter lines (you don’t just need to be in the top 25% to get those, you need to be in the top 5% to have a sniff of those unless there’s other preassignments that make it unviable credit wise or unattractive to bid for those lines) but there are loads of tours available amongst the rest of the lines, it stands to reason that anyone in the top 50% could very well construct a line basically consisting of tours. Yes they might not be 4 five day tours every time but certainly the ability to build a more commutable work pattern will be far greater than it is right now and that is the one saving grace of JSS.

[Jumbo2]

I'm pretty convinced all the 4 day and 5 day trips will still end up in the top 25%, there are less then 75 4-5 day trips total and just like high credit day trips they will go senior. also at 50% you are still within reach of the optimisation process.

[Mansnothot]

I did receive the Yes for the sim though. I am just a bit confused as it is stated in the “assessment outcome” email that a sim feedback will be send shortly after the said email. I am quite fed up with my current employer, that’s why I might be a tad impatient ;)

I didn’t get the sim feedback until I got my offer mate. I got the “yes” from the sim on the Monday, then that Thursday I had a call with the job offer and Lucy quickly read through my sim feedback. And that was it.

[Angels 99]

I'm pretty convinced all the 4 day and 5 day trips will still end up in the top 25%, there are less then 75 4-5 day trips total and just like high credit day trips they will go senior. also at 50% you are still within reach of the optimisation process.


There's comfortably in excess of double that number available in Jan.

[Thegreenmachine]

Hi everyone,

At the moment I am in the holding pool for about 2 weeks now. I did not receive my Sim feedback yet. Anyone knows how long that normally takes?

Thanks!

Hi,

I'm in the same position. Positive feedback from sim a few weeks ago. No further contact since that point. Waiting patiently for a phone call.

[Elw18]

Hi,

I'm in the same position. Positive feedback from sim a few weeks ago. No further contact since that point. Waiting patiently for a phone call.

When I got call with course date Lucy read me my sim feedback over the phone.

[Dutchflyer]

Hi,

I'm in the same position. Positive feedback from sim a few weeks ago. No further contact since that point. Waiting patiently for a phone call.

I got a call last friday with an offer. Took just over 3 weeks. Got the sim feedback over the phone.

[bylgw]

Be patient. Manpower are very busy sorting the jigsaw out for next year and seeing where the holes appear for new joiners

[rossbaku]

Hi,

I'm in the same position. Positive feedback from sim a few weeks ago. No further contact since that point. Waiting patiently for a phone call.

Don't suppose you have any feedback for those waiting to attend Stage 3? ;)

Cheers.

[Buter]

Not sure why one of Rex's funnier posts was deleted, but I like him now; can we keep him?

If y'all had any idea how much effort is being pumped into JSS on our end...

If you have multiple offers, please evaluate them objectively. I absolutely LOVE my job, but you ain't gonna join where I'm at.

If you want to talk privately, PM me.

Cheers

Buter

[RexBanner]

Post self deleted Buter as it wasn’t necessary to keep bickering about the amount of five day trips available on a BA recruitment forum.

January JSS dry run however has (as hoped for) thrown up a far more commutable SH roster than currently is the case with Bidline pre swaps which was more or less my point. Should only get better too with increasing seniority. However it’s a moot point for me as I’m off to sample the delights of Carmen!

[Britabroad]

Hello everyone,

Just looking for some advice, if anyone is ‘in the know!’

I recently attended (and passed) the second stage interview and group assessment and wanted to get some info regarding A320 command opportunities. It was claimed that with over the applicable command hours requirement, one could expect a short haul command, if so desired, at LGW (or even LHR!) within 6 -12 months of joining. Is this a real possibility? Are the command slots really going to those that junior?

Many thanks in advance.