BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Cliff Secord]

Well aren't you just the bloody great big goat's toe.

Never heard such a self preening pious bunch of complete pompous c@@tery in all my life as displayed during your first two sentances. If one didn't know better, aviation would seem to overflow with this attitude these days. Thank God, there's some normal humble (but extremely capable) people still around. Psychopathic tendencies were supposed to be ruled out by aviation testing. Obviously hasn't worked.

[back to Boeing]

Oh good another keyboard hero who completely misses the point. Play the man all you like. Meanwhile the ball has gone sailing straight past you.

[speedrestriction]

Just to clarify: you could of course (and probably should) prepare for the numerical and verbal reasoning tests. What I don't believe you can improve a whole lot is your scoring in the co-ordination and capacity tests; these are more down to your innate ability and I do believe that there is research to support this.

The clue was in the punctuation in my first post.

[GS-Alpha]

Although I went through selection as a cadet, I believe the selection proceedure was very similar for DEP and CEP applicants, but without the simulator day. Admittedly I went through a long time ago but I believe the tests are still pretty similar to this day. I did zero preparation as I was incredibly busy with other things at the time and BA was not the be all and end all. I was one of those scribbling down my logical workings in the maths questions, in the way I've always been trained to do - even if I already know the answer in my head. I completed significantly fewer maths questions than the rest of the applicants within my group, but I knew my answers were methodical and correct. I actually really enjoyed the whole selection experience, finding the computer tests challenging and really quite fun. I didn't over think anything. I just followed instructions carefully, read questions carefully, and answered interview questions as honestly as I could. I actually remember upon being asked "So why do you want be an airline pilot?", thinking "Crumbs man! This really is one question you could have prepared for!", but it resulted in my coming out with a completely honest answer.

The point I'm trying to make is that preparation is really just a means to get your mind thinking in the right ways and giving yourself the confidence to perform. I'd have thought these are all the kinds of things that a current pilot should already be able to do? I was a recent university science graduate, working in a very hand eye co-ordinated field at the time (although nothing to do with flying), so I was confident I could complete any tasks thrown at me. Perhaps my everyday skills were my preparation, but I had no idea what was coming on the testing days - only a knowledge that the test couldn't be as demanding as the kinds of things I could already do.

[no sponsor]

I worked my socks off to prepare. I'm certainly not like GS-Alpha, who is clearly very gifted.

I did a few practice verbal reasoning examples and despite thinking they would be quite easy, realised I needed quite a bit of practice. Same with the maths. All my answers in the interview were honest, but I'd made sure I had my examples sitting in my short term memory. Having cocked up my first interview when my mind just went blank at the most inconvenient time.

As for the sim, I got myself very good at flying raw data again. My capacity bucket was quite large when I turned up for sim day.

[GS-Alpha]

Ha! I've certainly never been described as such in the simulator. I'm just your average BA pilot.

[highfive]

Should pay you guys more than 50k based on all that extra curricular effort you've been putting in ;)

It could actually be deemed as cheating the tests, and infact BA may well not be getting the quality of candidates that the results indicate they should employ ?

What happened to stick n rudder ? Oh its now back to front in the assesnent lol

[Stage5]

Should pay you guys more than 50k based on all that extra curricular effort you've been putting in

It could actually be deemed as cheating the tests, and infact BA may well not be getting the quality of candidates that the results indicate they should employ ?

What happened to stick n rudder ? Oh its now back to front in the assesnent lol

With that in mind practicing raw data could be seen as cheating. ;)

'Fail to prepare, prepare to fail'

As for the "why aptitude testing for DEPs" ..... https://www.iata.org/publications/Documents/pilot-aptitude-testing-guide.pdf

[VJW]

It's interesting reading everyone semi-arguing here, forgetting the point that people just prepare differently for these kind of tests. I'm sure there are people who've put enormous amounts of study in who fail and people who just book an assessment on a wing and a prayer and pass.

Personally having been through it twice and not got to day two yet, I'm know I'm weak at the verbal test. For me the maths was easy, however having used lastestpilotjobs for the joystick test preparation I wasn't sure (of course with no feedback how could I be) that my score showed I had been practising this. From the get go I had that FD nailed, on the counting and joystick same again with 8 correct 0 wrong answers, and finally with all three I had 18 hits 3 misses. Again, I know I had to have failed the verbal, but I wonder if by doing the above did I show I was improving or actually getting worse? Personally I won't practise that if I get a chance again and the last computer test you can't really practice anyway. I'd brush up on the maths, and hit the verbal practice hard and keep my fingers crossed that the third times the charm.

[Blueskyrich]

As a hold pool swimmer, let me put one concept forward to you all.

As professional pilots, we try and plan for every eventuality. Granted, we don't always get it right, however we try our very best to make sure we're fully briefed before the TOGA button is pressed. We're professionals, it's what makes us, well, us.

So, why would an attempt at the BA selection process be any different? It is professional to understand the situation you are entering. It is professional to want to achieve the highest standard possible. It is professional to make sure you are prepared for what is coming.

Waiting for someone else to give you the answers or tell you how to get to where you are going isn't going to do anyone any favours.

[kirungi1]

Blueskyrich

Waiting for someone else to give you the answers or tell you how to get to where you are going isn't going to do anyone any favours.

An honest and sincere piece of advice. Thank you :ok:

[FLYINGPERCY]

In any industry, if you want a job, you have to prepare for it. Going in 'blind' will not showcase your skills as you will not have prepared. Do we as pilots perform a perfect go around without mentally rehearsing it, practising it and then performing it? Have I cheated if I have practised it before my sim check? Course not!

Selection is exactly the same, in every industry. I do not know anyone, in any professional role, that did not prepare for an interview and selection. Part of devising these tests and interviews is to filter those that want the job and those that don't. Those that do, I would argue will prepare and work hard to understand what is required to pass them, as our day job, bares little resemblance to the selection tests - a fact that can be said in all industries!

Top and bottom - you get out, what you put in and add a slice of luck, it may work out. I say this as someone who went through the process.

[john1007]

Hi all,

Well I believe the Crystal run is complete and the numbers they have been projecting for next year are confirmed.

Does anyone have any info. regarding when BA might start to call people with courses? Rated, non-rated, SH, LH etc...

Much appreciated.

[one day soon]

Wrong I'm afraid John...... the results wait continues

[GS-Alpha]

I would be amazed if any DEP's course is being delayed by the running of Crystal. I am pretty sure people have been notified of course dates at least as far as January. How much notice do they give? I would have thought it is three months? As far as I am aware they haven't stopped taking people from the hold pool, so there is nothing to start.

[Jwscud]

GS-Alpha - only calls of late have been to A320 rated. No non-rated calls have been made for some time, and recruitment advised that non-rated positions will start to be offered again late October.

Some have been waiting in the pool for 3-4 months for a call. Personally I've been swimming for almost 2 months.

[john1007]

The last group to be offered a course were the 16 rated folk starting in January. They were offered I believe late last month. There hasn't been anything since then so I believe.

I believe with the SIM move and the overloaded training dept. they just haven't been able to offer any more dates as yet.

Been swimming for some time now so hoping for the phone call soon 😃

[VJW]

Has anyone ever needed to change the date of their assessment day. I've been asked to attend day 1 and the dates available are all around my simulator renewal with my current airline and those dates are not confirmed 100% yet. I've got a few reminder emails from BA asking me to pick a date and I'm wondering if I do and then cannot make it - are they happy to change? I've emailed them but no response yet, obviously I want to avoid messing them around while not missing out.

[glipglop]

VJW, I've changed assessment dates a couples times by calling the number. Never received replies to my email, as they must get a multitude of emails every day.

They were very helpful over the phone.

[VeroFlyer]

Yes, call the recruitment number. The guys at pilot recruitment are extremely helpful. Coming from the Middle East I've had to change every single stage so far on several occasions!

[ChaseIt]

For you lads that attended stage one how did you go with the numerical did you get through all the questions? Otherwise how did you go with the last computer test?

[stranotipo]

Anybody willing to enlight how long will it take for a NEC to bid/take an LGW command?

Thank you
STRANOTIPO

[Stocious]

About 5 years at the moment. Maybe less if BA agree to waive engagement freezes.

[Wirbelsturm]

About 5 years at the moment. Maybe less if BA agree to waive engagement freezes.

I suppose if you're 'stuck' on the 'Bus you may as well be 'stuck' in the LHS.

There is always a reason when Commands go so junior. You will be stuck on SH for a very long time and at the bottom of the seniority list! Picking up every poorly constructed blind line going! Consider the fact that a lot of the Captains from Gatwick on the initial run of Airbii there went back to the RHS of LH!

Says something doesn't it!

[jetting]

Does anyone know if there is likely to be any recruitment onto the B767?

Also, I have been told that the hours requirement to go DEP to long haul is 2000 hours jet. Does this apply to the 767?

[OttoMatic]

When you get the call, is there an initial medical assessment before you start or not? Just pondering what to do with my expiring medical...

Thanks for any help guys and gals!

[RexBanner]

Jetting I've been told different. My sources say 3000 total, 1000 Jet above 50 Tonnes MTOW and ATPL. Direct Entry Long Haul is going to be scarce though this year by all accounts, although still will happen in small numbers. My guess is those with command experience.

[Jwscud]

My understanding of long haul hours is the same as jetting's - I think it was mentioned at the roadshows.

They also said they are expecting still to recruit onto the 767 though if the fleet dies inside your engagement freeze you will hopefully get some element of choice in where you go next.

[jetting]

Thanks RexBanner. I don't meet the requirements either way!

My guess would be that LH slots will go to those with a Boeing rating, particularly as it has been mentioned many times that training capacity is stretched.

Any idea if the long haul hours requirement applies to the 76?

[back to Boeing]

Rexbanner,

I've been told completely different. I've been told that DEP on to long haul in 2016 will be at similar levels as in 2015. I guess when the PRIAM results are published everyone will have a better idea of actual numbers.

[RexBanner]

I think we've all been told completely different as when I did my sim the instructor said it was 3000 Total, PPJN says 2000 Total including 1000 Jet and you guys are saying 2000 Jet!

I think the Boeing type rating is a bit of a moot point unless they have 777 rated guys in the pool who could slot in on the 787. There's no CCQ on the Boeings like Airbus that would reduce the training footprint, 737 to 747/767/777/787 for instance is still a full type rating.

[toplux]

Long haul DEP will continue. No one knows how many until the results come out...

[highfive]

Plenty of EASA rated B777 guys in EK would consider Long Haul. Not much life on SH A320. Thats for your ab initio 200 hour low timers.
But I hear they getting EZ captains applying for RHS, so what do I know..

[Approaching Minima]

I've seen plenty of colleagues (including captains) from my current airline join BA on the B747 and A320, even a few on the B767 and B787. I also know several former colleagues who were flying the B777 in the Middle East who all joined on the B747. So you just don't know, all depends on what course is available at the time.

[no sponsor]

There's plenty of very experienced guys joining on the 320. From rated to non-rated.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

Recruitment is continuing for the foreseeable future (although that may only be about 24 hours:E) onto the 767. This is because there is spare training capacity on the fleet and it allows those at the top of the fleet list to bid off.

The discussion of long haul hours for the 767 may be moot as we are down to only 3 long haul hulls as of December. The last LH 767 is planned to retire around Jul/Aug next year so it will become a short haul only fleet.

The 767 fleet is due to be retired entirely in mid to late 2018 although there are always rumours that it may go much sooner or last much longer. Be aware that if you come to the 767 and it folds before your 5 year engagement freeze is up you will be BA's bitch, to do with as they please. In all probability that may well mean being directed to the 320.

regards

[RexBanner]

Thanks binsleepen, has the issue of offers/start dates now officially recommenced? (Interested hold pooler who would absolutely love a crack at the 767, short haul or otherwise).

[thunderbird-1]

Any DEP on the 380 :}:}

[Stocious]

I suppose if you're 'stuck' on the 'Bus you may as well be 'stuck' in the LHS.

There is always a reason when Commands go so junior. You will be stuck on SH for a very long time and at the bottom of the seniority list! Picking up every poorly constructed blind line going! Consider the fact that a lot of the Captains from Gatwick on the initial run of Airbii there went back to the RHS of LH!

Says something doesn't it!

Sigh.

I heard that every day when I was a TLH at LHR. "You won't have any control, Carmen screws everyone" "Gatwick will go under and you'll all be out of a job" etc etc, blah blah. I was just answering the question without adding an opinion, but seeing as you had one...

Personally I quite like being at home every night, with pretty much every weekend off. And I'm not remotely the most senior man there. I was at home before on-blocks time the other day. If you live close and it suits you, it's the best kept secret in BA!

You big-jet boys can keep your toys and your night time atlantic crossings, I'm happy as larry here.

[monquay]

Hello all,

just wondering how long it took BA to get back to people after completing the sim?

Neither me nor my Sim buddy have heard anything nearly 2 weeks later!

Cheers

[Wirbelsturm]

Picking up every poorly constructed blind line going!

Oops, I was talking about LHR, my bad.

Personally I think, for the Junior Captain, that Carmen is far, far better at balancing work/leave than the seniority 'fest' that is Bid Line. Junior skippers at LHR get screwed every time with the 'it'll be your turn soon' mentality when we have a stagnant upper echelon workforce.

The pay point capping is a relic from the past that needs to be addressed but you've got no chance of that with the ivory tower 'everybody must meet their individual cuts' mentality.

I like operating out of Gatwick, shame the management have screwed the crews though.

[Stocious]

People joining now will have a pay cap at PP24(ish) at LGW. Plenty of time to get senior on some other fleet if they so desire.

[speedrestriction]

Is BA SH realistically commutable on a full time contract? If not, how amenable are BA to offering part-time options?

[Juan Tugoh]

It depends on where you want to commute from

[speedrestriction]

Either Edinburgh or Glasgow would work.

[Juan Tugoh]

Commuting from Scotland can be made to work, though it can be hard work when junior. Many commute from both GLA and EDI for SH but you will spend a fair amount of time in hotels etc down in London while on reserve or for an early start etc. Remember that there is no staff travel for the first 6 months as well. Many pilots rent somewhere local for the first year or so to settle in and see how it could work for them.

[manflexsrsrwy]

hi guys, any rumours doing the rounds if the current intake will extend beyond december 1st ? I know the closing for now is Nov 1st but historically they generally extend...any info anyone ?

[PressTheTit]

Hello all, is anyone aware of what's happening behind the scenes with regards to SIM assessments? I passed Day 2 back in September and was told to keep an eye on the website for SIM assessment availability but despite checking everyday there has been nothing apart from a couple of cancellations which I was beaten to. When I contacted recruitment (end Sep) I was told Nov slots would be released imminently.
Would I be right in guessing the remainder of us in purgatory will be SIM checked along with the guys and girls going through the latest DEP recruitment campaign?
Any info would be appreciated - the wait is killing me !!:{

[VeroFlyer]

Slots were released end of September for November. They went very quickly! I have mine end of November. I'd call the pilot recruitment team and ask for an update, that's what I did! They are very helpful.

[Jwscud]

Any more inside information on what is going on? We were told by recruitment that allocation of non-rated DEP courses would have started by this week.

Are issues with internal bids holding things up? Any rumours for hold poolers to feed off gratefully received!

[wiggy]

Are issues with internal bids holding things up?

Results of internal bids still not released (that's a definite)

Possibility of a problem because of a shortfall of internal bidders for short haul commands....(that's a strong rumour)


Any rumours for hold poolers to feed off gratefully received!

You're welcome :ok:

[4468]

There are certainly issues with internal bids. Or more accurately the system (Crystal) that allocates courses to bidders. Many variables need to be input, such as the network plan, and training capacity, to name but two. Assumptions also need to be made such as rates of sickness, which are not easily predictable as they have grown rapidly recently. EASA rostering!? Retirements 'should' recommence in less than 12 months. Other factors such as part time availability/take up need to be considered. Finally, both type and engagement freezes are currently being waived as there are insufficient internal bidders for certain positions. Some of those positions may surprise you?

It's a pretty complex and fluid picture at the moment, that will definitely mean that in a few years time we will have another pilot surplus.

[RexBanner]

Is RHS on "the whale" one of those?

[Stocious]

Very unlikely.

[rampss]

I commuted once for 6 years and again I am going back to it early next year.
It is hard work, even if you still have 20 years service like myself.
Also it is expensive at £94 a pop.

[Plastic787]

Date of entry and also suitability (hours and/or type ratings) bearing in mind quite a few of the hold poolers won't have the hours for long haul. No idea if the rumour is true but funnily enough it was something that was recounted to me also at Gatwick today.

[Juan Tugoh]

I wouldn't get too excited about any rumours floating around at the moment. The Crystal output is due soon and it is at this stage that rumours breed like rabbits. Many are fuelled by desire and mischief rather than anything solid. Wait and see but don't pin your hopes on rumours.

The latest thing to emerge from a semi-reliable source (BALPA PnP reps) is that DECs or a supplementary bid for SH Command now looks unlikely. In the light of my previous paragraph make of that what you will!

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Should have written them down at the presentation, but could someone post the pay scale for first 8 years (that's what the slide had) for SH and LH FO?

Thanks!

[Jwscud]

The latest on the rumour front is they are now starting to plan the 2016 DEP courses and getting in touch with a few people to check their hours and eligibility for Long Haul.

Fingers crossed the phonecalls with offers of courses won't be too far behind :ok:

toplux - at the roadshows they said you would be picked out of the hold pool based solely on date of joining and eligibility for the slot they are looking to recruit for - so for 777 say, they pick the person longest in the hold pool with LH min hours. Similar obviously for those with appropriate type ratings.

[shabon]

following up on the above, I received an email recently asking for my type rating and hours on type plus a few other questions...

[Plastic787]

The finger is being pointed in the wrong direction here, as it stands within the IAG Group the profits have to go up at Vueling and Iberia as they are the lame ducks at the moment. BA are massively profitable - more profitable than easyJet indeed even with the legacy T's & C's - and are responsible for the vast majority of the profits of the entire IAG Group. At Vueling, with their staff on binman wages, even then they struggle to make the tiniest levels of profit.

There have been criticisms about the veracity and effectiveness of Balpa recently but even the weakest union would struggle not be able to defend their position given these circumstances. The issue of pay is a red herring and, in such a profitable organisation, you're not going to be able to reduce wages for existing employees. New contracts for new joiners maybe? Well that remains to be seen. (Better sign that contract soon in case!) But bear in mind that it is not quite as simple as replacing short haul wholesale with Vueling. It has been said elsewhere that would be massively damaging to the BA brand, business model and operation and I tend to agree with that.

[EMB-145LR]

Whenever I hear people talking about Vueling replacing BA on short haul I think that a lot of people have forgotten the amount of trimming BA has already done to its short haul model and the steps that competing legacy carriers have taken.

Many forget that it was BA who made wholesale changes in the first decade of this century, long before Lufthansa, Air France et al did. BA closed its entire regional operation, both at mainline and at BA Citiexpress/Connect. The airline now only really concentrates on its core London market. They are not going to dilute their brand at Heathrow and I very much doubt they will at Gatwick either.

Look at Lufthansa, they have followed BA's lead, albeit taking a slightly different direction. They have cut their short haul branded flights from all but Munich and Frankfurt. Elsewhere it is now Germanwings/Eurowings that operate their short haul services. However, they have retained their core brand in their primary markets because they realise it would do more damage than good for the flag carrier to withdraw from short haul in their main hubs.

Air France have done the same, retreating from the regions and introducing Hop, but ultimately maintaining their core brand in Paris.

Rather than following the crowd via Vueling, I would argue that BA actually led the way with the 'Future Size and Shape' programme under Rod Eddington after 9/11. BA cut the majority of the fat from the regions retreating to Fortress Heathrow.

With the recent cost savings and increased labour productivity in short haul, BA are making record profits. A core short haul product has to remain to feed our long haul services. A huge number of our passengers are merely transferring at Heathrow to/from other European cities. We are expanding short haul, in the few months that I've been here we've already announced a variety of new routes, most recently Inverness.

BA may not be the Mecca it once was. You will fly 80+ hours a month, but it's got a solid future and many varied options for your career.

[wiggy]

.....and increased labour productivity in short haul,

Umm...From the pilot side of short haul - yes.

Pin removed, retiring to a safe distance.:hmm:

[toplux]

Have people started getting calls for courses in 2016?

[Rolling24]

I haven't heard of any NTR swimmers receiving offers for next year yet. It seems like we have all had the same email stating that they are beginning to plan 2016 offers.

Fingers crossed this means that phone calls will follow shortly!

[Jwscud]

There is a rumour going around that offers are starting to be made again, starting with Long Haul types. Anybody got any firm knowledge to share?

[Hotel Mode]

Only that there may be direct entry onto the A380 for the first time.

[BASHLH]

Hi Hotel Mode,

Can I ask where did you hear this rumour of DEP's to A380. I'm not for one second inferring your wrong but as someone who's hoping to go to it next year I'm selfishly interested.... I'm sure BA in the past have said no to DEP's on the 380 so will be a large change of policy if so....

All, we are Still waiting for the PRIAM/CRYSTAL results so I'm sure when they are eventually published hold poolers will get coursed fairly quickly.

[kirungi1]

BASHLH; Applications are now being accepted via the official website.

[wiggy]

BASHLH; Applications are now being accepted via the official website.

kirungi: Which official website? I'm not sure you've ever been able to apply directly to join BA on a specific type.

There are a heck of a lot of rumours flying around at the moment but like BASHLH I'm a bit sceptical about the DEP to 380 claim but then again maybe I'm not as well connected as Hotel Mode....It seems only 5 minutes ago BA required umpteen hours in BA and umpteen hours on Airbus to even look at the 380....

Then again, never say never.....

[VeroFlyer]

Anyone doing a sim check AM on the 27th please get in touch.

[MOA]

British Airways - Careers - Job Details (http://gs11.globalsuccessor.com/fe/tpl_ba01.asp?newms=jj&id=61085&aid=15581)

Link above to the DEP (longhaul) application page (taken from the recruitment manager's LinkedIn feed).

[nowind]

I know for a fact that an ezy colleague, SFO, got on to the A380 directly. The offer was accepted earlier this week I believe. Well done to her!

[wiggy]

nowind

Blimey, many thanks, as I said.."never say never"...or something more appropriate !!

Must go off to buy some pop corn - I suspect there's going to be a bit of comment here and more so elsewhere from those FO's already in and "frozen" in a short haul seat....

[Globally Challenged]

I haven't got any skin in the game - but I wonder if anyone inside BA can shed light on the veracity of the claim I heard which was that there is a shortage of internal applicants for the A380 as the failure rate is relatively high for the course which has a serious impact on your future career with BA.

Sounded like total BS to me.

[RexBanner]

If they're talking about people coming off the A320 transferring onto the A380 and failing I'd be very surprised by that, it's only a CCQ after all. If it's people coming off the 747 then perhaps less so.

But from the people I've spoken to at EK, the A380 is very easy to operate. Except perhaps once on the ground!

[wonder88]

I cam confirm that during the Pilot Careers Live event last Saturday Lindsay Craig announced that for the first time BA would be accepting DEP's to the A380. I personally thought this meant TR applicants from EK for example but I guess not.

[The Crew]

The quality of applicant from EK far outstrips that from any regional uk carrier. Why would BA not want to tap into a workforce of rated A380/B777 crews , especially from a competitor?
Even an internal BA candidate from the A320 could not possibly have the experience of a EK A380 sfo? I heard that there are several young, high time
EK captains throwing in their lot to the BA application. Why not, they are rich, by uk standards, and young enough to still have time for command in 3-6 years.

Good luck guys :ok:

[wiggy]

Globally

but I wonder if anyone inside BA can shed light on the veracity of the claim I heard which was that there is a shortage of internal applicants for the A380 as the failure rate is relatively high for the course which has a serious impact on your future career with BA.

Without going into the nitty gritty, whys and wherefores, associated rumours, allegations and the undoubtedly true tales of woe there certainly have been some problems/course failures associated with conversions from the likes of the 744 to the 380. I know with some degree of certainty that that has led to a degree of reluctance by some to bid for the 380 (most especially from those who have zero previous Airbus experience).

I'd also add that the other factor might be that the other Long Haul Fleets perhaps offer a greater range of destinations and/or variety....at the moment at least it does look like in BA the 380 will always be a small fleet.

[RexBanner]

Wiggy it does seem like it is starting to cream off some of the best destinations though, not much variety but good in what it does (KSFO, KLAX, KMIA etc). But it's whatever floats your boat I guess.

[wiggy]

Rex..As you rightly say it's whatever floats your boat - TBH the KMIA nightstop never floated mine...:8. With a fleet of (?)12 there's plenty of goodies left for the other fleets.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The issue continues to be training capacity. And a delivery schedule for the 787 that is only going to cause problems crewing the fleet.

I'd say this is as good a time as there has ever been to join BA as a DEP onto almost every LH fleet if you have the hours. Frustrating for frozen SH P2s but when the time comes there will be the bonus of having *some* seniority and not starting at the very bottom of the list.

And retirements start again in 2016....

[bringbackthe80s]

Guys I tried searching for this on the various previous pages and couldn't find it, if I missed it my bad..

Can anyone please tell me if one joins tomorrow on the A380 as FO (or any long haul fleet) what would be the typical net salary per month? Just net figure including sector pay and everything else, in your pocket, evry month..

Would about £4500 be accurate?


Thanks very much

[Shaka Zulu]

That would be accurate if you are just putting in the basic pension contributions

[Dihaz]

Hi Guys,

I have a query... I had applied for 'First Officer' back in November which was apparently mainly for the A320 fleet. In light of the new opening for 'Long Haul', would one automatically be considered for that too?

(I am an FO with extensive Boeing long haul experience (B747/B777))

Also, just to float an idea... What is the approx time to command nowadays considering mass retirement and flux in the company at the moment. I can imagine that time to command on the 747/777 is long but what about on a small fleet like the A380 where perhaps not all the existing FOs have the relevant experience for upgrade...

Cheers!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It's always difficult to accurately predict time to LH command, but the short answer - there is no quick way of achieving it. Fleets like the A380 will never be short of command bidders.

If you join now you would have 4000ish pilots ahead of you and the top 1400 or so are senior enough for a LH command with current fleet sizes and planned expansion. In reality very few of that group will retire in any great numbers within the next 15 years or so. And once they have thrown in the towel you will still need to rise at least another 1000 places from your 4000+ starting seniority in joining. I reckon at least 20 years to Long Haul captain if you joined next week, but it really is a guess, Wiggy and others may have better perspective on this.

And bear in mind when the 2011 intake joined most reckoned on maybe 10 years to a LGW SH command and more like 15 for LHR - it turned out to be 4 years for both. But SH really is a different kettle of fish!

[Juan Tugoh]

What is the approx time to command nowadays considering mass retirement and flux in the company at the moment

I do not know where this myth has come from, there is no mass retirement. The age legislation changed in 2006 which meant that the retirement age changed from 55 to 65. It is not yet 2016 and that means those at the top have been there for nearly 10 years now, the reality BA have seen is that people have stayed on till 65 so we have only seen very limited retirement since 2006. Retirements will start to increase after Oct next year but even then it will not be huge, there is the cadet bulge of the 90s which means that in the top 1000 there are over 700 pilots less than 50 years old. They will stay there for the next 15 years or more. Yes there will be retirements but time to command on LH will be many years. SH is a real variable, and is at the moment less than 5 years - but BA is very dynamic and any global event can change things very quickly.

[wiggy]

Dihaz

I can imagine that time to command on the 747/777 is long but what about on a small fleet like the A380 where perhaps not all the existing FOs have the relevant experience for upgrade...


The current projected numbers from the internal bid show the 380 as being rather popular. Since BA still allows internal transfers I'm afraid fleet size and the experience of F/Os currently on the fleet doesn't really enter into time to command.

Most of those currently going into the LHS of the 380 will be captains moving from short haul, the rest will be off other Long Haul fleets (Captains and senior SFOs). I can't see that changing any time soon so I really don't think joining BA on the 380 with bags of experience is going to give a fast track to command.

[no sponsor]

There's plenty of bidders for the A380. I think every one in the RHS are SFOs with plenty of relevant experience.

The courses for Jan and Feb have just been published, and there are lots of command courses starting in January!

[overstress]

I am an FO with extensive Boeing long haul experience (B747/B777

BA already has several hundred of those, all waiting patiently for their LH command, some for over 18 years....

[Juan Tugoh]

That is the BA way, you wait for your turn, what you have done before is largely irrelevant.

[GS-Alpha]

I would be rather miffed , if having recently applied and being told that only the A320 was available, and having signed up (complete with 5 years freeze) to find my buddy applying this week and getting offered B777 or even A380 !

That is how it works I'm afraid. How miffed will you be if that happens, so you serve your five year freeze on the A320, put in your bid for long haul, and discover that a brand new DEP buddy gets a position on a long haul fleet and you are told you have to be retained on the A320 due to a lack of training capacity? Yes, that happens too I'm afraid.

[wiggy]

fly4more

As my colleagues have said, rightly or wrongly that's a facet of how the BA system works ( another gem is having stacks of seniority but being stuck on a dying fleet). Even if, for whatever reason, you can't change fleet you're ahead on seniority and will be above the later joiners when you do eventually switch.

I'd look on the bright side - at least these days with the likes of pprune you can make yourself aware of the potential pitfalls before signing on the line.

[Jumbo2]

I would be rather miffed , if having recently applied and being told that only the A320 was available, and having signed up (complete with 5 years freeze) to find my buddy applying this week and getting offered B777 or even A380 !

Having had exactly this, being non rated with thousands of hours on Boeings. I would not have done it any other way. Getting in a month earlier rather then later would make a difference of at least 30 places on the seniority list at the moment! LH would probably have given a slightly easier lifestyle initially, but being already over 1/3 down the fleet seniority list I already have control about my working lines.

[RexBanner]

Long shot but does anyone know the order in which you are put into the hold pool? Is it done by the date of your sim or when you were notified of the result?

I'm just wondering because there is a possible scenario in which you received your assessment result after someone who'd been sim checked at a later date than you simply due to circumstances in the office at the time.

[GS-Alpha]

Rex, I do not know the answer to your question but whatever the answer, is there anything you can do about it? Do people even get extracted from the hold pool in order of entry or is it based on experience or type ratings held etc.? You cannot influence any of it so the answer is irrelevant. All you can do is be patient and see what happens. Why worry about it or upset yourself if the answer is not to your liking?

[RexBanner]

I'm just interested that's all.

[glipglop]

Rex, the most logical and fair way I can think of deciding the seniority is by the start of your Type Rating date.

[Pontius]

Having had exactly this, being non rated with thousands of hours on Boeings. I would not have done it any other way. Getting in a month earlier rather then later would make a difference of at least 30 places on the seniority list at the moment! LH would probably have given a slightly easier lifestyle initially, but being already over 1/3 down the fleet seniority list I already have control about my working lines.

I had the same as Jumbo and had absolutely no regrets. I joined on the 757/767 (from a 757 operator) while almost all my former company colleagues got to go to the 744. I was initially a bit cheesed off and thought about delaying my joining date (it was an option then) in order to join them but, in the end, was convinced by a BA mate to just get in as quickly as possible. I'm extremely glad I did and very pleased that I didn't go the Jumbo straight away. While I went whizzing up the 757/767 seniority list and got to, very quickly, a position where I could get decent lines of work, my mates on the 744 were stuck at the bottom of the list with very few people entering below them but a lot, transferring from other fleets, sliding in above them.

BA is all about lifestyle and that means seniority. Being more senior on a junior fleet is much better than the other way round and gives you many more options for controlling your work and days off. Don't be in a huge rush to jump onto an aircraft just because it's bigger than another one in the Company armoury; they're all the same once you close the flight deck door and nobody gives a damn that you fly a BA widebody....that it's important is just your over-inflated ego speaking.

End of the day, do what my mate said; get in as soon as you can and if you're offered shorthaul, grab it and enjoy the control of your life that you'll have compared to the bloke/blokess on your course who went to the 777.

[tdk90]

What's the apper age bracket generally seen in new hires? I'm 46 and by the time I might be hired would have a 17 - 18 year career, not chasing command more stability and QOL.

[Jwscud]

You cannot influence any of it so the answer is irrelevant. All you can do is be patient and see what happens. Why worry about it or upset yourself if the answer is not to your liking?

I rather understand Rex's interest. Since entering the hold pool 3 months ago, there has been absolutely no information beyond an email sent to some asking them to clarify their hours and 2016 offers are being contemplated.

For those of us at regionals and low costs this is a massive move for us, our wives (or husbands) and families. I think a lot of us are understandably nervous and attempting to clarify the process given that all we really have to go on at the moment are rumours posted on here. Recent world events have reminded us that despite BA's recruitment plans, nothing is certain and all we really want is information to soothe our nerves!

[overstress]

I would be rather miffed , if having recently applied and being told that only the A320 was available, and having signed up (complete with 5 years freeze) to find my buddy applying this week and getting offered B777 or even A380 !

Your hypothetical new A320 joiner may need to prepare to be miffed, from what I hear...

[Megaton]

Re: sim slots. Mate had interview Monday, telephone call Tuesday with sim date early December.

[bex88]

Miffed? Having recently joined on the 320! :mad:

Try telling that to guys who have been on the bus for more than 5 years and by the latest indications will be denied any transfer whilst DEP go straight to LH.

The feeling of entitlement by some is amazing.

[wiggy]

:bored:

Because of the internet and certainly the info available here BA's ruleset(s) should be well known. On and off, feast, then famine, only entries on one fleet..then everything opens up...or doesn't......

Because of this some were miffed when they misjudged things in the early 90's and got stuck on the classic 747 for years, some got stuck and miffed at LGW, most Flight Engineers got very miffed after 9/11........... One thing is for sure, you're not even in the game until you've got a seniority number, and you only get that by signing for the seat you've been offered.....

fly4more..if you think that selection strategy, if true, is an example BA being devious I've got news for you.......they can be much more devious than that :ooh:

[Jwscud]

Hold pool update went out today:

- If you have 2000tt incl 1000 Jet>25t or Tp>50t you may expect a long haul call

- If you have an A320 rating expect a call for that, even if you meet above requirements. All A320 slots are FPP or type rated recruitment at the moment

No offers will be made to anyone who does not meet either of the above criteria at this time. Given BA were publicly stating to all who went through selection this summer that jobs would be available to all who passed this is another boot for anyone flying regional or turboprop types!

[Stocious]

"at this time" does not mean "for the forseeable future" though...

[Tourist]

The feeling of entitlement by some is amazing.

Oh the irony......


Why on earth has the airline industry got itself into the position that length of time in a job has somehow equated to worth of an individual?

Because you have been in BA for a while does that make you better?

How childish.

[RexBanner]

Tourist to be fair on this one - and I am one of the hold pool guys who is wanting to take advantage of this situation and get a long haul slot - I actually fully agree with Bex. If a type rated guy (and regardless of their number of hours on type) is coming in and taking a slot ahead of someone who's now completed their engagement freeze and making an aspirational bid for long haul then (possibly) fair enough. But this is potentially not what is going on.

You could have two guys with the same type rating (or not, neither is type rated on the fleet being recruited for - it doesn't matter) and the same number of hours, the only difference being one is a DEP and one is someone who is a company employee and has served the company for five years. Both applying for a long haul slot. The external guy gets it.

Are you seriously telling me you'd be happy with that or that anyone in any other industry or workplace would be happy if the external (and equal) candidate denies someone in the company their promotion???

Really???

[bex88]

I don't think I mentioned anywhere that time served meant you were better or worse than anyone else.

The one thing these guys all have is a seniority number a track record within BA and an investment in the company. If you don't agree with the way we do things then don't come.

The truth is this. Pilots on SH with valid bids are having their career aspirations suppressed. Yes it's temporary and in our system they will be more senior than the new guys on LH so it will balance out in time.

BA has a way of working and when you join you accept that. You start at the bottom and work your way up. That gives you the right to then prove you are suitable for a position, not the right to that position. Many of these guys getting held on the bus have spent years close to or at the bottom taking the the crap. Now it's turning around these same guys are being excluded from the benefits. It is then when you hear about new guys just in or guys yet to join talking about being miffed that you can't help but :rolleyes:. Yes you will say how hard it's been elsewhere but we are not talking about elsewhere we are talking about here. DEP onto LH is only supposed to occur when there are a lack of suitable internal candidates. That is not the case. There is a problem with training capacity and finding enough Airbus pilots of a suitable standard to BA to allow these guys to move fleet.

De furmo in flammam. Please do come air your views on our way of doing things in the crew room. I am sure it will be listened to with great interest

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

My advice to hold pool swimmers would be to get your foot in the door and your name on the seniority list, then worry about your fleet later (if it's not the one you want from day one). Nowhere's perfect, BA included, but if you're joining for a specific fleet then you're missing the big picture of what BA offers.

Just to add to what Bex has said above, if you don't like the way BA does things then don't apply. It's a big seniority machine where the computers have names and the people have numbers. But despite its downsides, BA is still better than most airlines out there. If you don't agree then save your days off for something more pleasant than computer tests and interviews.

[bex88]

You do make a fair point but it's a system to which you choose to join or not. I am no defender of our rostering and have had a worse deal than most in that respect. What I would say is this. Under normal circumstances you quickly achieve some choice and control over your life and that is far far better than any system I know. The stories of champagne lines of work being picked by the most senior is not strictly true. Lines are pre constructed at stage one so you can't pick with 100% control.

If you want to complain and be vocal about it once your here then do it quietly because you won't find any support to change it and you will probably come round to its merits after a little while.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Those with a very much nicer roster than mine have served their time with years of crap rosters and little control over their lives. Ever seen 'Layer Cake"? in the words of Eddie Temple.....

"You're born, you take ****. You get out in the world, you take more ****. You climb a little higher, you take less ****. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what **** even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son."

I say the above as someone planted firmly at the bottom of the master seniority list, currently taking said s***.

[DVR6K]

The truth is this. Pilots on SH with valid bids are having their career aspirations suppressed. Yes it's temporary and in our system they will be more senior than the new guys on LH so it will balance out in time.

I am under the impression that the seniority numbers for fleet transfers in 2016 include all eligible un-frozen SH pilots with a bid in. That number isn't sufficient to fill the LH seats so there has to be DEP LH recruitment. I don't quite know how the land lies on the 767 but I believe un-frozen pilots on that fleet are being held back, in my view unfairly, from fleet moves.

Not sure if anything is being done this year that's been done any different any other year.

[Stocious]

DVR6K, this isn't about sticking to their freeze guns. Just ask the guys who had their freezes waived this year to get SH commands. They could easily choose to waive Engagement freezes, and recruit all newbies onto the 320, which would please all those SH P2 who are waiting patiently LH and massively boost morale in the same blow. It wouldn't please the training dept though, who then potentially have to do two courses instead of one.

Make no mistake, this is not about choosing to get the best pilot or the most experienced, or the most anything into BA Longhaul, nor is it a way of sticking to the freeze promise. This is a cost game, nothing more, nothing less.

[DVR6K]

DVR6K, this isn't about sticking to their freeze guns. Just ask the guys who had their freezes waived this year to get SH commands. They could easily choose to waive Engagement freezes, and recruit all newbies onto the 320, which would please all those SH P2 who are waiting patiently LH and massively boost morale in the same blow. It wouldn't please the training dept though, who then potentially have to do two courses instead of one.

Make no mistake, this is not about choosing to get the best pilot or the most experienced, or the most anything into BA Longhaul, nor is it a way of sticking to the freeze promise. This is a cost game, nothing more, nothing less.

You're absolutely right. Cost is King as the march towards record profits continues. It ain't right but it's the IAG way. If they don't have to unfreeze people they won't. It's not rewarding company loyalty but when did that ever matter to them?

Ex-BMI Airbus guys leapfrogging frozen Airbus guys onto LH. Now we're talking unfair. But what can you do?

[The Blu Riband]

with the seniority list in BA is that one guy will have a massively worse roster than another, simply because he or she is more junior. To old hands, that might seem reasonable, but not in the modern world of employment.

You're missing the point.

Without some kind of bidding system no-one will ever get anything they want
(time off or destinations) , whereas the company can roster as it likes to EASA limits.

It seems to me the modern world you refer to is zero hours contracts and no protection from ruthless employers.

I know which i'd rather have!

[Hotel Mode]

There are many the whole way up the seniority list who have not got what they bid for because they are in type freezes.

BA have always recruited DEP to LH, and generally held people to freezes. None of this should be a surprise. It's not like they're holding anyone back (on the 320) which I imagine BA would dearly like to.

What you're arguing for is zero freezes at all. ie: If someone junior (in this case it happens to be DEPs) get a move to a fleet you bid for then so should you regardless of any freeze. Not enjoying the 747 you bid for last year? Doesn't matter, you can bid onto the 380/777 anytime you like because someone junior but unfrozen got it.

Why is the engagement freeze a special case?

Secondly where is the sim and training pilot capacity going to come from for these extra few hundred A320 courses you just created? They're already outsourcing a fair chunk of the work to CTC as we don't have enough sims or IRE/TREmfor this level of movement.

[OttoMatic]

For starters I do realize that different people have different problems, but here's mine: Since the email about no NTR 320 courses will be available went out yesterday I'm potentially stuck on a turboprop for a no future company earning barely half the entry level wage of a BA anything pilot even though I've had years and years in my company. Why? Because even though I'm high up the hold pool list I got leapfrogged by people with a rating (which I do understand), but more importantly by people with a rating who initially failed in different stages of the recruitment but got called back to retake just parts of it even though I worked hard and managed to pass everything straight off the bat...

I get that it's a cost thing and I get that it's a training capacity thing, but it sure feels more unfair and more of a problem than someone being :mad: off because of the fact that they were offered 320 and someone they know got straight in to LH. Perspective, people.... I'll be very disappointed for a while for sure since my career goal was about to be fulfilled, but hopefully the "this situation may, however, change" will come in to force sooner rather than later.

[Flying Clog]

Oh bloody hell. Cry me a river :{

[king surf]

Ex-BMI Airbus guys leapfrogging frozen Airbus guys onto LH. Now we're talking unfair. But what can you do?

I think it is worth pausing for a moment and remember what BMI bought to the table-- 30 aircraft enabling the LGW 737 fleet to be replaced,new routes,but more importantly the daily slot increase (around 55),enabling BA to expand its long haul route structure,so much so that time to command has tumbled and BA taking on record numbers of Pilots securing everyones future.
The expansion is so great that company is struggling to crew flights on some days,and the Biblical size profits is reflecting this.

Maybe some ex-BMI guys are"Leapfrogging" onto long haul but that was the deal at the time( which BALPA agreed )of the take over,so without those BMI slots the Company would be stagnating.

Sometimes life is not always fair but in the big scheme of things a few "Leapfroggers" is a small blip in a life long career.

I guess there is a clue as to why so many people don't want the Airbus,and bid off it asap.

[Wirbelsturm]

The ex-BMI guys were offered promotion from RHS to LHS in accordance with their relative seniority in BMI so an FO who was close to command in BMI would get his command in approximately the same time as if he had stayed in BMI.

As BMI was operating the A330 they were also granted alleviation for out of mainline seniority transfers to LH in accordance with their pilot percentage against main line. I think about 5%-7% allowed early transfer as they would have realistically expected to go to the 330 within BMI.

It's a little hard to grumble about what was, after all, agreed upon the acquisition.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

For starters I do realize that different people have different problems, but here's mine: Since the email about no NTR 320 courses will be available went out yesterday I'm potentially stuck on a turboprop for a no future company earning barely half the entry level wage of a BA anything pilot even though I've had years and years in my company. Why? Because even though I'm high up the hold pool list I got leapfrogged by people with a rating (which I do understand), but more importantly by people with a rating who initially failed in different stages of the recruitment but got called back to retake just parts of it even though I worked hard and managed to pass everything straight off the bat...

I get that it's a cost thing and I get that it's a training capacity thing, but it sure feels more unfair and more of a problem than someone being :mad: off because of the fact that they were offered 320 and someone they know got straight in to LH. Perspective, people.... I'll be very disappointed for a while for sure since my career goal was about to be fulfilled, but hopefully the "this situation may, however, change" will come in to force sooner rather than later.

Otto, I remember how it felt to be in the hold pool (albeit not for as long as some others) and sympathise with how you're feeling. That being said, your email confirming the outcome of the sim assessment which confirmed your entry into the hold pool, probably said something along the lines of "when matched with a position you will be contacted with the details of the available position". The key words being "when matched". I know it's hard, after my (relatively brief) time doggy paddling in the pool, I had absolutely no nails left and was desperate to get the magic call. But in the mean time, chin up and try to relax. Publicly grumbling about your tales of woe in the pool isn't helping.

We were all told, including you I'm sure, that there are jobs for everyone that passes the process. That remains true but the strain on the training department is enormous at the moment. Be patient and keep smiling.

ATB,

2W2R

[OttoMatic]

Right, it's easy to be misunderstood sometimes I guess. I was not whining nor was I expecting much sympathy since I know there are plenty of people out there who would be more than happy to be in my position. What I was trying to explain was that for everyone complaining about how they are frozen on SH or someone leapfrogging them for a LH position there is a lot worse places to be. And from my point of view, they know how it is working in BA because they're already in BA and still they come on to the forum complaining while we ALL have to accept the BA way of handling things, even people being leapfrogged in the pool. I'm sorry if I came across as negative about my own situation (which I to a certain point am) but that has nothing to do with the BA hold pool rather my current employer. I am however a bit annoyed that people can fail the process and then get called back and then go before people who passed it the first time (although I do believe in second chances) but the post was really about "there's always someone that would do anything to be in your place". Hence the, different people have different problems part...

I hope we have no more misunderstandings and no more pathetic "boo hoo" comments as that isn't exactly productive even if I would have been whining... :ok:

[chazzypuk11]

....On a slightly different note!

Regarding the flight capacity test on day 2 (ECAM/NAV simulation) what do they ask for in terms of descent calculations (E.G. Miles from waypoint to TOD or Rate of descent to be level by waypoint)? I heard they don't give whole flight levels?

Anyone on here been through recently who knows the answer?

[pudoc]

chazzypuk11,

If I remember correctly, you could be at FL227 and asked to descend to FL193 to be level in exactly 3 minutes or level by a waypoint. The flight test is ok, but be prepared to come back with an answer quickly otherwise it'll descend for you and you could miss something else that's important.

This is on day 1 though.

[Tay Cough]

I get that it's a cost thing and I get that it's a training capacity thing, but it sure feels more unfair ...

With the greatest of respect, that is the BA way. They understand cost and little else. "Fair" is not of any relevance to them.

[hautemude]

What about the BEA takeover of Northeast. Some people think that was jolly unfair but then there was the BA takeover of BCAL & then there's Danair. Perhaps you should all study history. Life is never fair to everyone, so get on with your life. Be grateful for what is offered & if you don't like it, don't join!

[Father Jack Hackett]

Many individuals have submitted themselves to an exacting succession of assessments recently for BA pilot recruitment. They have been given the chat: "jobs for everyone who makes the grade". They have duly done as they were bid and made the grade. They have then been told that they will need to enter the hold pool until they can be allocated TR courses and they have cheerfully agreed and exercised an appropriate degree of patience, understanding the 'unprecedented' recruitment requirements.

These people have shown good faith, however BA are now executing a reverse-ferret, conducting emergency expectation management. Meanwhile people with the right ticket, many of whom, frankly, didn't 'make the grade' first time round are getting in ahead of them.

There are of course good, commercial reasons for BA to do this. When you are cancelling flights due to lack of pilots you of course have to make harsh choices. But I'm not pleased to hear hold-poolers getting told to suck it up. They were made promises that aren't being fulfilled and are definitely getting seen off here.

[Tay Cough]

The point is not that it is unfair. It is.

The point is this is how BA now operates. It is a money-making subsidiary of a giant corporate monolith (IAG), a monolith whose only interest is that its subsidiaries are profitable. IAG is largely uninterested in how those profits are generated. Emotion does not even compute. If you think it's likely to be much different once you're in, you may want to look elsewhere.

BA will recruit whoever is the most cost-effective for them. End of discussion. :sad:

[Father Jack Hackett]

I didn't write that to have a go at BA (I did say I understood their current policy) or indeed those who got a second go, day 1 assessment is indeed pretty arbitrary. I just don't like some of the dismissive comments against the hold-poolers who have a point and wish to express it on here - I mean, where else are they going to vent?!

[FLYINGPERCY]

I have to completely disagree with plastic.

It's not about being lucky or not. If a company opens its recruitment and that enables people to apply, typed or not, then if they pass that process and are made aware throughout that their is a job for them, then that's the end of it. Why is that lucky? That's the industry.... It's about timing. This issue of 'call backs' jumping ahead is a contentious one. If you pass first, second or third time, you deserve to get in. Ultimately 'business need' trumps it all and BA like any other business has to balance things.

Nothing externally has, as far as I am aware, reduced the requirement for pilots, just that the goal posts have changed. That's life and occurs in every industry. We have to be resilient and appreciate this is the industry we chose to enter knowing how volatile it can be. Hold poolers (like me) will wait patiently and see how things develop. I am of the opinion that they will need non typed pilots, just that the wait will be longer.

I am however amazed at some of the comments on this forum. We are all in this together. We have all been through the mill at some stage so I think respect for all is required. BA needs pilots, priorities have altered and capacity is maxed out, but let's all try and respect each other's circumstances and appreciate that if you decide to go through the process and pass, irrespective of your background then, you hope that you will end up in BA and I'm sure those in recruitment will hope that is the case too.

[Plastic787]

I understand Father Jack. But we all have our own troubles. What about those guys sat in the pool who are desperate for a long haul position - giving up the chance of an imminent command at easyJet to apply for BA purely because they want the lifestyle that long haul brings them - only to now receive an email saying that despite the fact there's actually a "significant number" of long haul vacancies, you're not likely to get one because you're A320 rated!

Cue five years stuck on short haul with the very real chance of being stuck again in five years time whilst DEP's are recruited to long haul ahead of them!

Now imagine how this reads to the Flybe/Eastern guy just desperate to get off turboprops!

[A320baby]

Plastic787

When you applied for BA you understood it was for the baby bus, during which time circumstance has changed and now there is a need for long haul pilots.

I'm afraid timing is everything in this industry but surly you must be grateful to get the BA gig?

If you are so desperate for long haul why don't you apply to Air tanker? They are looking for pilots and flying long haul!

[Plastic787]

A320baby, you are completely missing my point. The non type rated guys in the pool were applying for an A320 position too, not a long haul one. Yet they are now in the frame for a long haul slot whereas the A320 rated are somehow not eligible. The point being these things are inherently unfair, so the moaning should take place somewhere else.

[Wirbelsturm]

Moan all you want, it's all about capacity.

To release a current BA A320 pilot from SH to LH involves the LH conversion course and then a SH course for his DEP replacement into SH.

A DEP LH requires a LH conversion course.

One less course in a system where simulators, trainers and capacity are at maximum.

Join when you can, put up with SH, move over to LH and find yourself already further up the list than if you transferred today.

Conversion courses cost A LOT of money and, in the current climate where capacity is severely limited on certain fleets, cost is king over internal bidders I'm afraid. IAG thus BA will go for the cheapest option.

[OttoMatic]

It's quite funny to see how the pilot community can be so hypocritical sometimes. There's always a lot of moaning about people who do self sponsored type ratings and P2F takers and how they are ruining the industry for everyone else. Now the same people tell the turboproppers and others who worked their way up without taking financial shortcuts that they shouldn't moan when someone who effectively did just that passed them in the queue to potentially the best job in the business. I'm not saying that the takers of self sponsored ratings did anything wrong but it would be nice if everyone else could pick a side and at least stick to it?

For the recruitment process it self, people on here keep repeating the mantra of "their train set, their rules" to which I fully agree. However, the recruitment process is de facto their rules for letting someone join and now they are not following their own rules by letting people retake parts not only on day one but also day two and sim sessions. I agree that day one is quite arbitrary in many ways, but it also shows a bit who has been preparing and worked for it IMHO. I'm all for the fact that they have to check costs, otherwise you can't survive in todays cutthroat world but when they are breaking their own rules I think we could all be allowed to have a bit of a moan if we're victims of it, especially when there are so many people moaning about not getting their preferred fleet or their preferred trips.

[Wirbelsturm]

not following their own rules by letting people retake parts not only on day one but also day two and sim sessions

Quite simply it's down to supply and demand.

With changes to Bidline, pensions, pay-points and the work load that is SH and the associated freeze the company, using it's own processes, hasn't got the intake it requires.

Hence, adapt and overcome. Change the requirements, as set by the company itself, and look at alternatives.

At the end of the day it is your date of joining that sets your future in BA for just about everything, not which fleet you join on. You will be able to move eventually and then you take up the same position as if you had gone as a DEP except, perhaps, without the years of being at the bottom.

That's how I've always seen it, see it however you will.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,


At the risk of adding fuel to the fire of the conversation above, we have been asked to spread news of the following.

BA are gearing up for a huge recruitment year next year, with a significant number of DEP vacancies on the longhaul fleets. They will shortly begin a roadshow tour of the UK, which will be starting at Gatwick on 30th November. They are happy to see people who just want to come down and hear more about longhaul specifically, or are just toying with the idea of applying to BA. See the link below:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/british-airways-longhaul-pilot-recruitment-seminar-tickets-19572485832?ref=estw

The following information is included in the link:

We are actively recruiting now and for 2016 we envisage over 350 pilots joining the fraternity, with over half of these vacancies requiring direct entry onto our longhaul fleets. We're coming out to meet experienced pilots who are interested in finding out more about what we have to offer in what we hope will be a relaxed and informal setting. The presentations are aimed at experienced pilots including those who hold type ratings on any of the aircraft BA currently operates or has on order.

At this time, we are not seeking attendees who are low-hour or trainee pilots, but if you fall into one of these categories we'd be delighted to meet you at one of the other events we support including Pilot Careers Live, formerly the Flyer Professional Flight Training Exhibition.


My opinion is (and it is only that) is that if you have a 320 rating that is what you will be offered. If you have any other rating and meet the LH requirements you will probably be offered LH. If you don't meet either of the above then you will sit in the pool until a 320 slot opens that can't be filled by a TR guy or a cadet.

LH requirements are:

1. 500 hours or 100 sectors on a relevant* aeroplane type.

*The Part-FCL definition of a relevant type of aeroplane is a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers.

2.ATPL(A) with Class 1 medical and 2000 hours including 1000 hours on Jet transport category aircraft with MTOM greater than 25 tonnes or multi-crew turboprop transport aircraft/military equivalent with MTOM greater than 50 tonnes. Turbo-prop experienced conversions must be approved by Head of flight trainig.


I hope this information is of help even if its not the answers that are hoped for. Be aware that if you turn down an A320 slot you may get another later offer of an A320 with a higher (worse) seniority.

Regards

[Wirbelsturm]

The above is excellent news for anyone joining now on any fleet as they will progress rapidly up the seniority roster in relation to those who join in the future.

That position you are given upon joining the company will dictate your fleet, bidding position and command opportunities for your time in the company.

When you do move from SH to LH, after getting used to being able to achieve your trip lines on SH, rapid recruitment, especially onto LH as DEP will, potentially, see you straight onto trip lines on the LH fleet instead of having to go back to blind lines again. Every cloud and that...

Always, always, always remember your date of joining is king in BA.

Enjoy.

:)

[chazzypuk11]

Thanks Pudoc!

[Speedoneeighty]

Fraternity so no hope for any of our female colleagues then 😒

[monquay]

I had an E-mail yesterday to the same effect. Leaves me a tad nervous as a service leaver without the long haul requirements (or type rating). Any other military hold pool swimmers here heard any good news?

[Wirbelsturm]

Monquay,

There are separate requirements for ex-service personnel. What experience do you have?

[monquay]

Fast-Jet (unfortunately in this case!) so frozen ATPL only. it did mean I could apply and am into the hold pool, but I suspect it leaves me less than ideally placed given the current slots and costs to train (can't blame them, just a bit of a pain!).

[Wirbelsturm]

Yep, sorry but you don't qualify for ZFT onto LH on either weight or unfrozen ATPL so it'll be SH for you. :)

1500 hours to unfreeze will take about 2-3 years max! Who knows what happens after that!

[monquay]

That's very true! As long as I can get in in the first place! I am hopeful as I have been looking forward to this new challenge for a while. I can stick with my nail biting until next Autumn before I panic too much, hopefully better news for the SH non-type rated folk by then.

[Jwscud]

Father Jack/OttoMatic - well said both. I guess the frustration would be lower had BA made clear offers were not guaranteed but were type and background dependent. The job advert in fact does make the preference for you rated candidates clear but the various pronouncements regarding "jobs for all" from members of the recruitment team have been counterproductive. However, Those of you who say BA are solely profit-driven should try working for a real low-cost airline. You ain't seen nothing!

Regarding the places that are available, are offers likely for the 767 still or is it mainly 777/787 with the odd 747 and 380?

[Wirbelsturm]

I have been looking forward to this new challenge for a while.

It's a very well trodden path, trust me. ;)

[Wirbelsturm]

No 767, it's a dying fleet.
777/787 yes.
747 yes
380 I would guess that there are more than enough internal applicants plus they have some.....'interesting' requirements for the 380 (must be previously airbus qualified)

Ammended:

There is a requirement for DEP's onto the 380 apparently.

[pomme pilot]

Has anyone received any offer since the email was sent? Just wondering when one could possibly expect a call.

And Im guessing being rated on one of BA's LH fleet almost guarantees that, if the offer does eventually arrive, it will be for that fleet?

Having done most of my research relating to the 320, could somebody give an indication of the current bottom of the list blind lines rosters on the 787, and 777. Anything would be VERY appreciated!

Thanks

[NLP]

Hi guys.

Good to hear that BA is hiring so many pilots this year.

Does anyone have any information about the pilotneed for the years after 2016? Im A320 TR and in the hold pool at the moment. Would be great senioritywise if this recruitment will continue.

Brgds,

NLP

[Blueskyrich]

As a lowly TP driver who's been in the pool for quite a while...

I'm not bothered by rated people getting start dates ahead of me. It makes absolute sense for BA to take as many rated people as they can, as they'll be on the line far quicker.

I'm not bothered by guys with less hours than me but with a bit of jet time getting long-haul slots. Someone, somewhere has decided that the limit for those types is x amount of jet hours. That's cool. I can very much understand the frustrations of those on the A320 fleet that may be denied the opportunity to move on however.

I'm not bothered with on-going recruitment - there are a lot of seats to fill across all types.

What bothers me is the real possibility that after doing my very best to pass each stage of the assessment process, being told that 'there are jobs for all' and that 'nobody will get left behind', that I will not get to join BA after all. That really, really worries me.

[Wirbelsturm]

Blueskyrich,

From what I can gather it is all down to training capacity on the Bus. They've had to contract out as it is as they are behind due to the sim moves to TBA.

I'm sure your time will come. I know they are looking at the hold pool to try and empty it.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

The 767 is indeed a dying fleet, but it's not dead yet. Recently heard that recruitment onto the fleet will continue for the short-medium term. This allows people further up the list to depart for pastures new.

Of course this comes with the usual health warning that accompanies all rumours. But never say never.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

I am reluctant to contradict Wirblesturm, but as 2W2R says recruitment for the 767 is continuing, at 2-4 a month for the forseeable future. Now as it is 1730 on Fri night that probably only takes us until 0830 on Mon morning :ugh:. New Trainers are being trained to help with the training and allow other trainers to move to other fleets to help with training there.

New recruits onto the 767 allow the senior FOs to move off. Beware that the fleet is due to shut in 2018 so people joining now will still be within their engagement freeze so BA could send you wherever they want. It could be longhaul but it could be to the A320.

Regards

[Wirbelsturm]

No worries, especially since to original plan had the 767 gone by now!!

Always happy to be corrected. :ok:

[Plastic787]

If DEP to the A380 is going on and it is a cost game, as people have been saying (probably correctly), then why are A320 people being told not to expect long haul? Correct me if I'm wrong but Boeing/Embraer rated guys are going to have to do the full 6 week type rating course whereas A320 bods can get the rating done in two weeks max on a CCQ. Or is this a case of BA managing expectations for those in the pool?

[bex88]

Because the 320 fleet is in need of pilots. A320 rated with minimum training required. You would then use the guys you have to rate to go onto the LH fleet. 1 type rating but 2 new pilots.

[Thad Jarvis]

I know at least 1 DEP going from 20 straight to 80.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

Time to command in BA is presently about 6 months.

Regards

[wiggy]

:eek:

Yep, not sure of "time in" but just the seniority number of the individual involved has caused more than a few jaws to drop ( mine included).

There will now no doubt be the debate about exactly why it has happened ( I suspect we can probably work it out why there was a lack of interest from many), but even so it looks like the old adage of bidding for what you want, or simply having a "punt", regardless of freeze, has had interesting consequences. I wonder how many of the slightly more senior are kicking themselves.......

[binsleepen]

at the moment it is a pulse and a hole in the proverbial:O

[wiggy]

:ok:

Certainly looks a bit like that.

Looking at the experience required matrix in the Ops manual (health warning - which I may be completely missreading) it looks to me that as long as the pilot has 1000 hours command on the type in question then it is a case of ticking some licence/admin boxes and then passing the BA command course - which is certainly not a "given".............(there are other experience criteria, but that's probably the "fastest" track)

It will take time to see whether this is a "black swan" event precipitated by the current grumbles about short haul or whether the trend towards v junior short haul commands will continue. It will also be interesting to see if the individual actually gets to do his/her course, given the way the training programme changes over the year.

[no sponsor]

The annual bid results are out now, so I'm assuming course dates will be forthcoming, and as a result, joining dates.

[RexBanner]

However, how many of these 350 jobs are likely to be coming to fruition given the situation in the world right now. Events taking place this morning have just escalated things further!

[GS-Alpha]

I can't see us scaling back recruitment plans for the coming year. The only question now - will the guys who have been given long haul instead of short haul be miffed because their A320 new entrant colleagues are getting commands within a year? Ha ha ha

[wiggy]

Good point GS, though before there's too much noise it's worth emphasising that this sub-one year time to command is only potentially be available to a few DEPs, and will only be repeated if this year's bidding pattern carries forward.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

It's worth also noting that no part time contracts were offered this year. This means that there is a large amount of work that current pilots want to give up but can't. This will require more recruits next year to pick up this work.

Regards

[GS-Alpha]

No 'aspirational' part time is being granted but given the rumour of 700+ pilots applying for 'right to request', I don't think anyone expected 'aspirational' part time to get a look in this year. I think you will find unprecidented numbers of pilots will be getting part time in 2016...

[bex88]

Command requires 3500 total hours of which 2000 on AC <12t and 1500 BA hours.

2000hrs on aircraft <25t and 1 year in BA or 1000 P1 on type.

Bid for what you want. Two years ago I told people it would take me another 8 years or so for a command. Now I find myself being told I have an approved command bid and that I best get working because I will be getting a course.

In fairness I can see why people have not wanted it because the last 2-3 years has been a hard grind...........75% please :}

[ATTCS armed]

Well done Bex!

[Flaperon75]

Command requires 3500 total hours of which 2000 on AC <12t and 1500 BA hours.

2000hrs on aircraft <25t and 1 year in BA or 1000 P1 on type.


Should there be another 'or' in there. Essentially if you join as DEP (having flown, say, an Airbus for someone else as P2) you need 2000 hours for command. Is that correct? You only need the 3500 if your hours are on smaller things.

Edited to add I think your < should be a >

[wiggy]

Not just me finds that matrix strangely written and a bit of a puzzle then ;), and almost impossible to put into text format here.

if you join as DEP (having flown, say, an Airbus for someone else as P2) you need 2000 hours for command.

Unless you have 1000 hours in command time on the 320, in which case you're in the frame for a right to left immediately . Then again I guess if you've got 1000 P1 you'll have the >2000 hours on the airframe :confused:

That said whilst its worth knowing the numbers required, and therefore knowing what is possible, I would not assume low time commands are going to become the norm. I rather suspect that the results of this year's annual type/seat bid will act as a bit of a wake up call to those who didn't think it was worth bidding for a command this year (I actually suspect there more than a few people going around kicking themselves or the cat over this year's results). Then again in twelve months time I'll no doubt be proven wrong - again.....

I agree with you about the inequalities...

And yes, well done bex

[Tourist]

Or, it could be just that those with no seniority on the A320 are the only ones with nothing to lose swapping seats.

If you have a couple of years, then you can probably/maybe get out of short haul soon.....

[wiggy]

it could be just that those with no seniority on the A320 are the only ones with nothing to lose swapping seats.

That's true to some extent, but if normal bidding patterns return in the future years anyone very junior going Right to Left on the 320 this year is potentially going to spend a heck of a long time at or near the bottom of the status list.

[no sponsor]

There are absolutely staggering numbers of people going from right to left on the Airbus. I counted over 115 people getting commands who've yet to serve 5 years in the company. With those numbers I can't see how they can afford to release any FO off to long haul.

The recruitment team are gearing up for road shows looking for DEPs onto LH.

[Flaperon75]

anyone very junior going Right to Left on the 320 this year is potentially going to spend a heck of a long time at or near the bottom of the status list.

I think that's quite an important point actually. Bottom of the list on short haul is about as bad as it gets with a life of permanent blind lines and working every weekend. Perhaps survivable for a year or so (as would be the normal run of events) but for 5 years plus!?

I wonder if the junior bods who bid for C32L gave that much thought. More money etc but at what price!

[ReallyAnnoyed]

With very short time to command, A320 is probably becoming a lot more relevant for a lot of current Ezy captains. Assuming 2-3 years from joining to command, what sort of salary are you looking at then? All the references I could find have been for FOs and PPJN has information from 2008.

[wiggy]

All the references I could find have been for FOs and PPJN has information from 2008.

I'm not surprised, I don't think anyone has ever really thought about, let alone published in the public domain, the basic of BA captains on Paypoints 1-4 ish........:eek: :eek:

I'm sure the truth really is out there...ll see if I can find anything.

edit to add: found these from 2013 , A320 LHR captain basic, points 1-5 with PP1 at top, in STG

69,092
70,965
72,839
74,712
76,586

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Thank you, Wiggy. Am sure more than just me are interested in the numbers for the decision making, although BA is for lifestyle.

[no sponsor]

Captain 34 point pay scale on SH valid 2015

Year 1 72,092 GBP
Year 5 79,912 GBP
Year 10 89,687GBP

In addition you get Flight duty pay 660gbp (?) per month, plus allowances which is 1000-1500per month depending on how hard you work.

[Northern Monkey]

BA is, indeed, a good choice for lifestyle. But not if you take an airbus command after 2 or 3 years (even if you think this will be possible, which I'm not convinced about in future years).

All that is going to happen next year is that a lot of senior people are going to take another look at short haul command and realise they are suddenly a lot more senior, relatively, than they would have been this year.

As was mentioned a few posts ago, those really junior pilots getting short haul commands this year could very well end up on blind lines with no weekends off for years. For some that won't matter, but if you have a family it very well might.

[SR71]

As was mentioned a few posts ago, those really junior pilots getting short haul commands this year could very well end up on blind lines with no weekends off for years. For some that won't matter, but if you have a family it very well might.

What is the seat freeze duration? 5 years again?

Can't they bid back into the RHS again if they're that dis-enfranchised at that stage?

[GS-Alpha]

They can indeed bid back to the RHS of a long haul fleet at a later date. This is what a lot of people used to do until the NAPS command taxation made it a really financially foolish thing to do. One of the reasons short haul commands have gone so junior is that NAPS members are unwilling to sit in short haul as a Captain for an unknown period of time (waiting for a long haul command), and they no longer have the option of going right to left more than once due to the taxation penalty being applied twice if you do.

For those asking about command pay scales, FO payscales are 75% of Captain's pay at all paypoints and on all fleets. It is very simple.

[wiggy]

Can't they bid back into the RHS again if they're that dis-enfranchised at that stage?

FWIW I do know of at least one very well thought out voluntary LHS to RHS on the same fleet. However it was a few years ago, before pensions and tax got so complicated and was done very late on in the individual's career.

I think doing it these days, and in mid career, would expose the individual to the sorts of financial penalties that GS-Alpha has highlighted .

[OBK!]

2015 captain scales on PP34

1) 72092
5) 79912
10) 89687
20) 109236
34) 136605

[Angels 99]

The 'flying pay' figure quoted above is about £4200 greater than reality and, on short haul at least, you'd have a very busy night stopping month to achieve the quoted £1200. I'd suggest averaging it would be close to impossible.
If you don't know the numbers don't pretend you do.

[Flaperon75]

The 'flying pay' figure quoted above is about £4200 greater than reality and, on short haul at least, you'd have a very busy night stopping month to achieve the quoted £1200. I'd suggest averaging it would be close to impossible.
If you don't know the numbers don't pretend you do.
Completely agree. Short Haul flying pay about 8k pa and monthly allowances £600 - £900 per month on short haul depending on number of night stops

[ManUtd1999]

I imagine it's for varied reasons, but why has BA shorthaul (especially commands it seems) become so unpopular v LH over the last couple of years. The basic job (plenty of nightstops around Europe, slightly less pay v LH, earlies, etc.) has not changed much as far as I know. Is it just the increased "efficiency" (workload) alone or other factors?

[Pilot Chris]

Can anyone help with interview booking.... the site only offers a few dates just within the next couple of weeks. Does this mean that these are the only dates that will be available to me, or if I wait will further dates become available in the future e.g. in January?

Thanks!

[wiggy]

ManUtd1999

In the absence of an authoritative reply to your post so far from one of the short haul people on here the best I can do is give you an idea of the main grumbles that get aired, either verbally or on another forum:

1. Short haul moved onto EASA compliant FTLs a while back, so yes, "efficiences" seem to have played a part.

2. As part of yet another round of cost savings BALPA agreed a change in the "Duty rig" for shorthaul, which seems to have meant short haul pilots are doing long duty days hanging around in the bowels in T5 between sectors with no increase in pay/flying.

3. Short haul get an almost daily clobbering by the BA LHR lifestyle...aircraft changes and /or terminal changes/security :uhoh:

4. The perception that there is soon going to be a rapid increase in the rate of upwards movement across the seniority lists. The higher seniority short Haul P2's can see they will soon be in the frame for a move to Long haul if they want it, and many of the Long Haul P2s can see they will soon the frame for a Long Haul Command. Neither group will want to jeopardise that by incurring a freeze on the A320 by taking a Short Haul command......

I must emphasise that's my perception of what in the main has precipitated the current state of affairs, as a Long Hauler who has talked to Long Haul P2s about the how's and why's of their bidding logic. It will be interesting to see what the the guys who are actually "living the dream" think..:E

[Wirbelsturm]

The perception that there is soon going to be a rapid increase in the rate of upwards movement across the seniority lists. The higher seniority short Haul P2's can see they will soon be in the frame for a move to Long haul if they want it, and many of the Long Haul P2s can see they will soon the frame for a Long Haul Command. Neither group will want to jeopardise that by incurring a freeze on the A320 by taking a Short Haul command......

Pretty much hit's the nail on the head for me too.

I would also add that as the LHS demographic for LH fleets is toward the younger end, thanks in part to the Prestwick cadets, then the older SFO's on the LH fleets wouldn't see a move back from LHS SH to LHS LH in their time.

Lifestyle choices are shaping many more peoples careers now days rather than the 'climb to command' greasy pole (certainly a large majority of those SFO's with previous Command experience!). :ok:

[Tay Cough]

wiggy and Wirb have it about right.

Beyond the Prestwick cadets, there is also another bulge of cadets from the late 90s who are now starting to achieve longhaul commands. Some are not even 40, giving up to 25 years in the left seat of a longhaul jet, starting now.

[bex88]

Can't argue with any of the above. As a SH RHS to LHS move in 2016 I agree with everything that is being said. My reason behind staying on SH when I have the seniority to go LH RHS again is a lifestyle one. With youngish children and 32 years till retirement right now I would like to be at home a bit more. I don't mind the SH life but it is hard. I plan on going 75% in a few years. By doing that my take home pay will be more or less the same as now but I will be there for my family. In the long future ahead I may then bid LH RHS once the kids have grown up to enjoy the travel with my misses with a view to a short wait to a LH LHS.

That's the plan but if that actually pans out I would be quite surprised.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Wiggy's point 4 sums it up for me too. Looking at the bid results most of the 2011 intake (the most junior unfrozen bidders) have chosen to go to LH, and the 2011 DEPs onto the 747 have also elected to stay LH. So that's an entire years worth of recruits who (mainly) have decided against a SH command.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest high and middle seniority LH P2s' are sitting tight. They have a combination of a good income with a more sustainable workload and lifestyle. Let's see what changes come in the next few years with Easa and BA "optimisation".

Judging by the comments on the company forum it has bruised a few egos amongst one or two SH captains who obviously feel their position should be aspired to by every lowly co-pilot! The reality is people have bid for what they want, and right now in BA, short haul is proving deeply unpopular.

[ManUtd1999]

Cheers for the replies guys, informative as ever :ok:

[king surf]

I am a junior Capt. Short haul.
Yes I am well paid 6k net a month,nice Hotels, £ 3.39 an hour down route.
However the work is relentless with all the associated issues of LHR. no tug,no busses,no stand guidance etc etc.
iF you want a weekend off then forget it or a special day off is pure chance although pre ops do try to accommodate.
Personally I have had 6 weekends off in 18 months,with some of my colleagues none in 2 years.
Social life is limited. For example on my current 5 day 12 sector tour we have had 9 different cabin crew. Down route is generally a beer and a pizza with your colleague so don't expect much else.
Ba is not a place that you will make friends as the place is so big. Nobody knows who you are but that can be a positive as well.
Everyone is different and some thrive on the hard work and if current FO's choose to stay on long haul then it's their choice.
For me, I am in my bed or a hotel bed every night and when I finish at Lhr say at 9pm and see all,the long haul,flights going off I just think to myself I will have driven home,had 8 hours sleep,had breakfast,walked the dog had a coffee and the long haul guys are still in the air!!
Their is no doubt that nights out of bed are damaging to your health combined with the huge changes in time zone the trouble is that you don't realise the damage it does long term.
I appreciate the last para is off topic but I just wanted to give my reasons for putting up,with short haul. Less money yes, more crap to put up,with at Lhr, yes ,but like I said everyone is different and for me it's my health that's number one.

[bex88]

King surf.....if there were a like button I would press it for that post

[Bengerman]

Frankly, those trying to second guess "the state of the nation" in 5 years time are simply dreaming. things change all the time and at a rapid pace.
Bottom line is, if you want to work for BA then give it your best shot. If you are sceptical, or feel that only one part of BA would suit you, then forget it!
As with many companies the most verbose will make their feelings known whilst the silent majority will just get on with the job, knowing that things will inevitably change, sometimes for the better sometimes not!

[Cliff Secord]

Hi King surf

Genuine question from interest and not meant to sound synical. But what you describe of BA short haul doesn't sound terribly good for your health either. How many night stops do you do a month? Did you previously come from the long haul side of things before to make your comparison?

I'm not BA, but I can sympathise with the jet lag concern. It knackers me. It knackers everyone. Its the big bit of the job that worries me health wise along woth being zapped by radiation and breathing compressor air for hours. The other bit I don't like is very long trips. Other than that I prefer long haul over any short haul. Only for now.

On BA long haul are the layovers majority min rest or any 2 days plus?

[king surf]

Hi cliff, Yes I have done long haul and night freigt and I feel sooooo much better doing short haul but would admit to getting tired but so is my neighbour who gets up at 5 am 5 days a week and gets home at 7 pm.
I probably do 7to 10 night stops a month with most night stops being 13-17 hours off. Occasional stand overs with 30 hours off.

[Stall-turn-Go]

Hi All,

Does anyone have any news of movement in the Holdpool? Are courses being offered and if so, when and on what? Also current number of swimmers and time in the pool?

Cheers

[wiggy]

Cliff

On BA long haul are the layovers majority min rest or any 2 days plus?

The majority are 1 or 2 nights, certainly on fleets with well established route structure, but as you would expect there are exceptions....it's a bit of a "that depends" thing.

The destinations with a daily service on a single type tend to be night stop or 2 nights depending on FTLs (e.g. most of the State side stuff).

If it's a destination where there's an interchange of type (e.g. has been happening between 380/744) you might get extra nights, also you might sometimes generate extra nights if there any shuttle sectors involved (e.g. some of the Caribbean stuff on the 777).

Other than that there's a very small number of three or four day no shuttle layovers. They are in places where BA don't do many services and it's probably too complicated and/or costly to position crew in/out ..or they just appear on the schedules for no immediately obvious reason...

So..what was the question again....:}?

[Harry palmer]

Is he a cadet or Airbus Type Rated? Has the recruitment process come to a standstill? Not a great deal of mention regarding days 1,2 or 3 at the moment?

Cheers

HP

[g109]

Quick question for you guys in BA;

I'm currently flying the a380 with a big operator in the Middle East. I have about 7000h all on heavy jet.
36 years old.

What are my chances of being recruited directly on the 380?

How much is the monthly gross pay, including allowances and flight pay on the LH fleet?

Thanks

[bex88]

G109

Basic LH pay point 1 is £54069 pa. You then add FPA at about £650 a month and duty pay at £3:19 per hour from check in at LHR to check out. That's maybe around £1200-1500 a month. That's all subject to UK tax. Your duty pay is taxed at 20%. I am SH so have no accurate info on the achieved allowances so it's an estimate.

What are your chances of going directly onto the RHS of the 380 fleet? As your rated and they have said internally that they will recruit at least 20 onto it in 2016 I would have said pretty good. Why would they go through the the hassle or type rating you on another type when you have a rating we need.

Hope that helps with your decision.

[4468]

Why would they go through the the hassle or type rating you on another type when you have a rating we need.
I can pretty much guarantee a full course will be required, WHATEVER type you join on.

[Flaperon75]

I can pretty much guarantee a full course will be required, WHATEVER type you join on.

Well that's not true, and hasn't been for some years.... I joined 5 years ago with an Airbus type rating and we did a 'bridging' course of sorts that consisted of 1 weeks ground school 4 or 5 sims and 12 line training sectors.

I would think if you have an A380 type rating you would be VERY attractive to BA.

[bowly]

King Surf,

Did you pass the verbal reasoning test? If so, see me.

Standards have slipped.....

[hunterboy]

When you lose around 30% of your pay to taxes, and have to pay for your own accommodation, I wonder if BA is attractive to anybody residing abroad? I suspect that's why BA are scratching around....

[wiggy]

I suspect that's why BA are scratching around....

I don't think I'd characterise it quite that way. Sure BA could throw money at the pilots to try and match some of the expat packages but it's BA, they won't..... I certainly haven't yet heard any of the recruiters saying "you know, we are really short, we really must make a special effort to attract experienced people from the Gulf (or elsewhere).".... There is lots of experience in the airline and as for the new P2 side there are people still in the hold pool and plenty others elsewhere in the selection/recruitment pipeline.

have to pay for your own accommodation,

Just to clarify I take it you mean accommodation at base (i.e. within reasonable travelling distance of LHR)?

[binsleepen]

Yes, Belfast and Dublin

Regards

[g109]

Thanks for the infos guys, much appreciated.

I roughly worked out the NET take home pay for a year 1 FO including allowances to be 4830 GBP per month.
does that sound about right?

It is slightly less to what I am making now, but being based back in Europe again is the big plus for me. I have had enough of the middle east, after only being here for about 4 years.

cheers

[737 Jockey]

Many attendees at the LGW Hilton event yesterday?

[727Man]

I attended the Luton Roadshow, took my time with the application, essay questions etc, even sent email saying I attended the roadshow, then got a no to my application, it still shows submitted. Not sure what type of person they were looking for? Ex FE and over 2000hrs First Officer Boeing time.:ugh:

[Keeping Dreaming]

Hi All,

Last year I applied for DEP, passed day 1 testing at Waterside with a call back less than 6 hours after leaving, sailed through the interview & group exercise and before I knew it I was booked in for a simulator assessment less than 3 weeks after submitting my online application.

I thought the simulator assessment went fine but a couple of restless days later I got the email I was dreading...I had been unsuccessful! The email did however offer me feedback which I jumped at and just a few weeks later I received the call. The feedback all seemed very positive, a few minor points here and there but I was told I missed out by the very skin of my teeth.

I decided to have another go this year, I submitted my application and got the invitation to day 1 again. I launched into preparing myself for the tests and went off to Waterside, all seemed to go ok on the day and I came out quietly confident. After an anxious 4 day wait I received an email stating ‘after careful consideration it has been decided not to take my application any further’ to say I was gutted was an understatement.

I really cannot understand what went so disastrously wrong in 12 months, I asked for feedback but received a polite reply saying that due to high volumes of applications they would not be able to accommodate my request.

I am guessing that every application is assessed without any reference to any previous attempts; it was nice to experience the whole selection process for myself but very disappointing that I was unsuccessful so early on in the second attempt.

I wish all of those in the current recruitment drive the best of luck.

[binsleepen]

G109.

I roughly worked out the NET take home pay for a year 1 FO including allowances to be 4830 GBP per month.
does that sound about right?

This sounds a little high to me, while junior the allowances make up a much larger chunk of your pay than for those more senior. The allowances fluctuate quite a lot depending on night stops vs day trips vs reserve, little of which you have much control over while junior.

I'm still in my first 5 years and after the compulsory pension contributions are deducted my Gross pay is usually between 5500 and 6000 GBP. Then you need to deduct tax, NI and any expense payments. I would therefore work on the low 4000's GBP and then be happy when you have a busy month.

Regards

[bucket_and_spade]

No, way too high (unless you have some unique tax arrangements) - if you work on £4,200 NET as a Yr 1 FO, on longhaul and not using much HOST (the allowance system at BA - you can take local currency out at the hotels and it is debited from pay the following month). If you use HOST a lot, expect to take a few hundred quid off the £4,200. My lowest so far has been around £3,900 - I had leave.

P.S. I should say the above figure is also after putting in 9% (pre-tax) in to the pension.

Rgds.

Thanks for the infos guys, much appreciated.

I roughly worked out the NET take home pay for a year 1 FO including allowances to be 4830 GBP per month.
does that sound about right?

It is slightly less to what I am making now, but being based back in Europe again is the big plus for me. I have had enough of the middle east, after only being here for about 4 years.

cheers

[Sharklet]

Would anyone be knowing if the requirements for DEP are likely to go back to "minimum of 500 hours experience on an aircraft that satisfies CAP 804 FCL.730.A - Zero Flight Time Training course requirement" for SH?

[Jwscud]

At the moment they are no longer progressing applications from those already in the system (ie passed Day 1 or 2) who do not meet the Long Haul minima and have a number of pilots in the hold pool who have likewise been told they are unlikely to receive offers any time soon.

I would thus suggest it is unlikely in the near future!

[pomme pilot]

Hi,

Is anybody willing to share a few rosters from blind line junior pilots on the various long haul fleets? Obviously not too specific so that you can't be identified etc. Just weighing up the improvement in lifestyle compared to the current employer.

I really appreciate any replies!

Also, has anyone been called from the hold pool for long haul since the update was sent out?

Thanks

[wiggy]

Is anybody willing to share a few rosters from blind line junior pilots on the various long haul fleets?

Hope you get some feedback but old or even the current rosters may be of limited value. From February onwards Long haul moves it's rostering onto EASA compliant version of FTLs, so whether historic Blind lines are going to have any resemblance to those down the road is anybody's guess.

It's going to be an interesting few months...:8

[Harry palmer]

Any ideas of the break down in the hold pool? How many are not meeting the long haul requirement? Many A320 rated? Are they likely to exceed 12 months in the hold pool and get sent back to square one like previous years?

All the best to those affected.

HP

[Jwscud]

My sources are:

- The recent email to hold poolers stating that only long haul offers would be made to those who did not hold A320 ratings and no non-rated recruitment (apart from FPP) would take place onto the A320

- Two friends who have been informed that despite passing, they will not be progressing to the next stage of recruitment due to not meeting LH type or hour requirements, one after day 1, one after day 2

- Contact with other hold pool swimmers through this website/via email

[bex88]

That's interesting. I can only assume training capacity is at its limit on the A320. There is a huge amount of movement from the A320 fleet to LH fleets and also from RHS to LHS. Perhaps 320 numbers are shaping up nicely as they have pushed in a large number of new FO's onto the fleet. Pretty much all bidders who don't require a type rating have been given an ok bid for command on type

[Harry palmer]

Why have BA got a 25tonne limit on people going onto long haul? People have joined the big 3 in the Middle East onto 777 and A330 from dash 8s,CRJs etc without problems.

[speedbirdhopeful1]

EK have only recently dropped the bar low enough to turboprop because they can't attract anyone. It was out of desperation and necessity.
The simple answer to many of these questions is that BA can do, and always have done, whatever they like.

Why have BA got a 25tonne limit on people going onto long haul? People have joined the big 3 in the Middle East onto 777 and A330 from dash 8s,CRJs etc without problems.

[peacekeeper]

I went through the recruitment process last year. BA opened a few different applications; first it was 320 only, then 330/340 guys who would be willing to do the short course to convert onto the 320 and finally non type rated. I didn't apply at the 320 only stage as I wanted to try long haul but by the time a job offer came around for me, there was no choice but the 320 anyway. I nearly didn't accept based on that and from what I know now that would have been a major mistake. As much as people complain about the fleet, it has far more variety than my previous job and plenty of flexibility. There are guys with Heathrow commands coming up after 3 or 4 years in the company and rumours that they may need to open a supplementary bid to fill more spaces.

Some people had the feeling that long haul courses were being offered to get more applications through the post, and they certainly got mine because of that, once you've invested your time in the whole
process it's hard to turn down a job. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a little bit of that going on now, some of my old colleagues at Easyjet are certainly more interested in applying.

BA are going through one of the biggest recruitment drives ever, they haven't been able to offer any part time in this years bid due to lack of Pilots. Seniority on the 320 is moving like nobody's business. I wouldn't be too concerned with falling out of the hold pool if you've been successful but don't meet long haul requirements, it is highly likely that the 320 training capacity is maxed out but it's a matter of time before they need more folks on the fleet.

I think this campaign will continue onward for some time!

[Right Engine]

The most junior successful applicant for LHS Airbus LHR this year has a grand total of 6 months in the company as a copilot.

There is a mass exodus from unfrozen P1's off the A320 fleet to Long Haul and BA can't find enough experienced* co-pilots to replace them.

IMHO, the 2 main reasons for Command becoming so junior this year is the combination of Our rosters will soon be constructed to the new EASA FTL's and Our new CEO has come from Veuling and his opinions of Short Haul pilots is reflected in his T's and C's of his previous company
Good luck all.

*3500 TT required

[RexBanner]

Vueling, a company that still struggles to turn a profit despite the salaries they pay. That should tell him all he needs to know about the relevance of pilot pay to the profitability of a company.

[Flaperon75]

*3500 TT required

I don't think that is correct.

It's 2000 hours for command which goes down 1000 if PIC

[Harry palmer]

From the above post???????

There is a mass exodus from unfrozen P1's off the A320 fleet to Long Haul and BA can't find enough experienced* co-pilots to replace them.

I thought all Airbus slots were now covered after any movers changing fleets by FPP and Airbus rated Experienced people from the pool. Hence why we hear people in the pool that are not Airbus rated or meet the long haul requirements being told no offers for you this time and guys in the selection process not meeting the requirements being told they will progress no further as everything next year is now long haul.

Or are things about to change once again?

Best of luck to everyone where ever you are in the process.

HP

[GS-Alpha]

Harry, the post is talking about A320 Command positions and a lack of experienced FOs bidding for them - hence why there are some A320 DEPs with appropriate previous experience, but less than a year in BA, with a successful bid from right to left. I suspect the current focus on long haul recruitment is due to EASA in February. I was recently told that even now, the 747 needs a 25% increase in numbers come February. Apparently we will recruit similar numbers onto the 747 in 2016 as we have in 2015. That will mean more than 40% of the FOs on the fleet will be new DEPs. Incredible really.

[clearofconflict]

I don't think that is correct.

It's 2000 hours for command which goes down 1000 if PIC

I'm afraid no one with 2000 hours is going to get a command. To have 1000 PIC (on an Airbus) at 2000TT would be a statistical impossibility. It's 3500 TT minimum with 3 years and 1500 in BA. If however you exceed the minimum total then you can have a command if you satisfy another of the 3 remaining requirements and not wait the full 3 years. So if you joined with 8000TT and had 1000 PIC on date of joining you could get a command pretty quick!

Hope that clarifies things!

[BASHLH]

Just to clarify the required minimums for BA Command as few statements I've read on here aren't quite accurate..... It states in the OM-A Section 5.2 that there are 4 boxes of various experience, one of which you must satisfy before commencing a BA Command Course.

'1000 hrs PIC & 2000 hrs in command on civil jet transport greater than 25 tonnes with zero time in BA'I suggest won't apply to many, so we'll bypass that!

Most will fall into this category.....

'2000 hrs on jet transport greater than 25 tonnes or military equivalent, 1 year in BA'.

Being that the most Junior Command on offer is to a DEP with 6 months or so in BA and is at the back end of courses in terms of seniority then he/she will probably have completed close to 18 months in BA by the time the course comes around. It's most likely that the DEP joined BA with at least 500 hrs & still must have an ATPL (1500 hrs) to hold a command in any company as it's the law.

A large majority of DEP's joined with 320 ratings so will have plenty of previous experience... One chap I was safety pilot for on his day one was an ex Easy skipper... & will have 12 months in BA by the time a course arrives. There are some very experienced recent joiners which BA should take full advantage of if there is a course for them in seniority.

The question from ex Turbo Prob colleagues is does a Dash 8 count as 'Jet Transport'?... If it doesn't then '3500hrs total time, 2500 hrs on public transport greater than 12½ tonnes or military equivalent & 3 years 1500 hrs in BA will probably catch recent DEP's out....

In Summary of what's turned into a bit of a waffly post....

Yes, if you have just joined BA you can be offered a command course based on your previous experience. Hope this helps.

Rgds BASHLH.

[Flaperon75]

I'm afraid no one with 2000 hours is going to get a command. To have 1000 PIC (on an Airbus) at 2000TT would be a statistical impossibility.

But that is not the requirement. "2000 hrs on jet transport greater than 25 tonnes" + "1 year BA experience". It doesn't specify PIC.

So assuming 200 hrs to get fATPL during training and then straight on to A320 with, say, Easyjet, before joining BA, you'd be looking at about 2200 hrs TT minimum for command.

The 1000 PIC is an alternative requirement. Thats how I read it anyway.

[bringbackthe80s]

The real question I ask myself is, how is it that no current BA pilots want a short haul command

[The Crew]

BA skipper pay is 25% more than FO grade. After tax prob no more than £600-700 month for basic grade captains.

Most long haul FOs have 10-15 years min seniority . They are used to their pay grade and position . The are not ambitious and have no desire to sacrifice lifestyle for hammering around europe in the hissing rain . And all those communities to LHR.

If you are ambiguous for command , then nows the time to apply. Wether you make it to the pool only god will know.

[Flaperon75]

BA skipper pay is 25% more than FO grade.
BA skipper base pay is 33% more than FO grade

BA FO earns 75% of corresponding pay grade Captains salary

[Mungo Man]

If you are ambiguous for command

Classic typo!

Amazing that some will get commands in as many months as some have waited years...

[wiggy]

bringback..

The real question I ask myself is, how is it that no current BA pilots want a short haul command

There are probably plenty of current BA pilots who want a short haul command but many don't meet the company requirements. OTOH those that do seem to have been awarded courses.

Remember (?) anyone moving gets hit into the LHS of the A320 gets bit by X year freeze just the time when for the first time in decade there seems to be considerable movement.

...so the LongHaul P2s are hanging on for a Longhaul Right to Left, so they don't want a freeze.

The senior Short haul P2s have got control over their lives and might be in line for a move from Short Haul to Longhaul if not frozen.....they're not going to bid RHS to LHS

[Flaperon75]

There are probably plenty of current BA pilots who want a short haul command but many don't meet the company requirements. OTOH those that do seem to have been awarded courses.


When the bid process is run and the courses are awarded, I don't think the requirements (in terms of hours etc) are looked at, hence the line in the results document to 'inform the relevant person if you don't meet the requirements'.

If you look at the awards at the bottom end of the seniority list, EVERYONE who bid for C32 got it. The only exception to this was FPP cadets. There may be people awarded C32 that don't meet the requirements and will have to decline the award.

[wiggy]

Flaperon

Fair point, however just to be clear I was merely responding to the comment that

how is it that no current BA pilots want a short haul command...

I suspect looking at the bid results a few actually do.... :ok:

[Flaperon75]

I also think there will be A LOT of P2's, especially junior ones, who didn't bother bidding as they wouldn't have thought in a million years that commands would come so low. Having been hovering around the 2000 mark for the last 5 years or so, commands suddenly plummeted down close to 4000 and I think that has caught a lot of people out. Despite the old mantra of 'bid for what you want', I think a lot of people just can't be ar**d to bid if realistically little or no chance of a course/command. Especially those who are still in their 5 year engagement freeze.

This will have been exacerbated by a flt ops manager saying on a company forum, prior to the bid, that he thought short haul commands would be a lot more senior this year (!!)

I've no doubt that any supplementary bid for commands would attract many willing applicants.

Incidentally I also know of a recent joiner who bid for every position in the company. A 'comedy bid', not expecting to get any of them. He was shocked to be awarded a LHR command and doesn't want it. He really wants to go long haul and doesn't now know what to do. If he turns down the command he will be given a penalty freeze. If he takes the command (which he doesn't feel ready for) he will also be frozen on type. Bid for what you want!

[Doug E Style]

"Comedy bid" indeed! Who's laughing now?

[Northern Monkey]

I'm not entirely convinced it will go more senior again next year either. The effect of EASA FTL's, especially longer duty days starting earlier in the day, remains to be seen. On top of that, our new CEO hails from Vueling and has already expressed an interest in reviewing pilot unit costs. If I was a betting man Id put money on the short haul working environment deteriorating further over the next few years.

[Calmcavok]

I think a lot of people just can't be ar**d to bid if realistically little or no chance of a course/command.

Is a bid still just the case of writing/typing something like "C32L" or "P77L"? If so, I don't understand why people don't just bid for what they want!? It's hardly a great effort.

[eckhard]

It's not even that complicated: you just click on what you want and then make sure the choices are in the right order! I've always 'bid for what I wanted' and it's worked out* just fine!

*14 years P744 (out of choice, although I always bid for LHS LH, just in case)
4 years C32L (eventually realised LHS LH was still a few years off and wanted to get Command Course out of the way)
C78L (next year, no course date yet)

Luck/timing does come in to it but if you don't bid, you don't stand a chance.

Talking of timing, now is a great time to join!

[king surf]

King Surf,

Did you pass the verbal reasoning test? If so, see me.

Standards have slipped.....

What a strange comment bowly!! Would you care to explain?