BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Enzo999]

This argument could go round in circles forever and it's not worth anyone's time doing that. My real point is this, I don't blame people for voting the way they did ultimately it would take an act of extreme generosity to give up your own terms and conditions to protect those of a bunch of people you have never met, I get that! But the union is supposed to be their to protect the industry not just a small group of select pilots. The futures of every single new pilot should never have been used as a bargaining chip in negotiations to protect the rights of a few. It was ultimately a very self serving thing to do from all involved which has ultimately devalued your own jobs as well as everyone else's. As I said I understand the reasons for voting that way and I doubt I would have done any different, but don't now pretend like we have nothing to complain about, you made a decision based on selfish reasons at least now have the balls to own that decision and not slag us off because we dared to question it. BA now has an A scale and a B scale and I find it hard to reconcile getting paid a lot less than other people to do the same job you may disagree and that is of course your right, but please don't call me a petulant child because I deared to highlight the injustice.

[coalencanth]

I must say I'm pretty shocked reading some of this, this must be unprecedented, seeing this much anger directed at BA.


I'm getting the feeling, from the tone on here and chit chat I hear down route, that maybe some people shouldn't have left commands (or imminent command) at other, often perfectly good and respectable airlines to chase the BA dream. I was tempted myself for a while but then thought better of it! - I remembered the lessons I learned from older boys and girls - get your command and stay in that seat! I mean this in the nicest possible way, but maybe some of these guys should have gone off to the Middle East as DEC's if they really wanted the long haul 'dream'.

[Angels 99]

What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!

I'm astonished that you managed to research, interview and be offered a job at BA without ever coming across PP24/34. It suggests to me that your level of due dilligence before joining was somewhere between lacking and unjustifiably :mad:

I write this as a relatively new joiner. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is life here pretty much exactly as I expected it to be, both good and bad? Yes. Next time do your research.

[Enzo999]

Another amazigly condescending post, somehow in all my preparation for interview I forgot to research historic pay scales, forgive me it's amazing they even offered me a job with such lack of prep. And what do you mean "next time"? You mean next time I interview for BA? All I am trying to say is that I am entitled to a view point without being called a petulant child or being spoken down to like a naughty teenager, wether you agree or not. End of my conversation on the subject!

[thewisealderman]

I think you will go through your career bitter and twisted. Time to get another job

[Snapper5]

Like the majority of pilots

[RexBanner]

Back onto the topic of recruitment I heard of a Flybe guy being hooked out of the hold pool recently and given a start date for a 777 course? Again something to please all the unfrozen guys & gals on the bus!

[thewisealderman]

]

He will hate flying to Barbados on a weekend.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Go back to Ryanair then.

Another charmer. :D

I didn't come from Ryanair.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Back onto the topic of recruitment I heard of a Flybe guy being hooked out of the hold pool recently and given a start date for a 777 course? Again something to please all the unfrozen guys & gals on the bus!

Yes, handbags away and back on topic....

Great news for those being fished out of the pool, especially against the backdrop of the recent Flybe results. Not so good for those being flogged to death on short haul looking to move on.

[HidekiTojo]

Another charmer. :D

I didn't come from Ryanair.

Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.

[Enzo999]

Words fail me!

[VJW]

I got a holdpool email update about 3 weeks ago or so saying no change to email received in Jan. One in Jan said no more DEP's in 2017. Has something completely different occurred with regards to their plans and executing (plucking people out the pool) in 3 weeks??

That 180 happened quick.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.

Quite a statement and completely inaccurate on ALL counts.

You've mistaken my comments regarding the degradation of T's and C's that have adversely affected those at the bottom disproportionately as mere whining and your attitude is pretty pompous quite frankly.

Big picture wise, I'm happy at BA. But it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to question the removal of some very big chunks of my T's and C's which have been very costly.

Maybe redirect your aggression away from your fellow colleagues and towards the consistent pokes and prods at our T's and C's as a workforce. Just a thought.

[jamie1985]

If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.

I'd have thought that was VERY subjective. I know of plenty of people in this and my previous airline who wouldn't entertain a move to BA. (Granted there aren't a lot of brits in my current airline).

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Have T&C's been romoved from people, or are they just worse then they were previously. If the latter is the case, then no one forced you

FPA (around £700 per month) was removed last year and replaced with Variable Flying Pay. This means that on a Reserve month or a month containing Leave, Duty Free Week, Sickness or Training you're pay will be significantly reduced simply through not flying.

Some of this pay is of course recovered but being junior means that you're largely unable to affect your roster and therefore have limited say over how much of that money you actually recover. That's not a grumble, just a fact.

Bidline has also been voted out in favour of the new (and largely unknown) JSS system, which is currently under construction and trial. No one really know what this will look like but from what I've read it appears to be a completely opaque preference system with an emphasis on optimisation of flight crew.

Note I've not mentioned the different Pay Point scales as the updated version was introduced before I joined and therefore have no right to complain, as you rightly say.

I should add that the loss of FPA and Bidline was democratic across the BA flight crew community and as such I accept the result. But it doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Enzo999]

Have T&C's been romoved from people, or are they just worse then they were previously. If the latter is the case, then no one forced you

Go tell that to UNITE!

[GS-Alpha]

Apologies if anyone thought I was calling them a teenager - I guess I picked a poor analogy. I was suggesting you had the characteristic of believing more senior guys don't know what it like to be junior, and that they didn't have worse terms and conditions than their predecessors. I wasn't suggesting you were like Harry Enfield's Kevin and Perry. I also pointed out that I have pretty much always voted against the BALPA recommendation - that includes pp34 and the introduction of BARP for pilots. I wasn't involved in the JSS vote with the loss of the FPA because I wasn't eligible to vote.

You don't appear to be very happy with your career move into BA though, and I think you're only going to feel more and more upset about it, unless you can somehow make yourself consider all the good stuff and think a bit more positively about everything. That's just my opinion, because I know I couldn't go through life being quite so angry all of the time.

[Right Engine]

The condescension occurring here might be from a real BA pilot. It might be just a bit of manager 'agitation'. However if you are real.... I've got to say whoever hides behind the Hideki Toji pseudonym, that your pomposity is off the scale.

I say that as someone who IS senior, who HAS been junior, and has reached pp24. Stop being so embarrassing to the rest of us. The newbies have taken a hit for the incumbents since before I joined. They have EVERY right to question that.

But as I said. Might be a management Wind up of what is now over 50% of our colleagues on BARP. Or a growing number on PP34 (perhaps one day they'll kick us senior boys so hard, we'll all be retired by Christmas. Posts like yours will certainly fuel that motion!)

So show a bit of respect.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Right Engine, couldn't have said it better if I tried. Thank you!

GS-Alpha - No apology necessary but I'm not sure who you were referring to re being angry. I can assure you I'm not angry. That's a very unhealthy way to be in this game as you rightly point out. Disappointed and frustrated to see my T's and C's being hacked away at within 5 minutes of signing on the dotted line for nothing really in return, absolutely. But angry, no. I do consider all of the good points, of which there are many, but I refuse to ignore the negatives, which have also been more significant of late. I've worked in other airlines and had another professional career before flying. I'm a normal bloke from a middle class family that spent many years paying off a very large flight training loan. No silver spoon teenager here I can assure you.

[basiljet]

So.....are they now taking people from the hold pool or not?

[blimey]

This is tedious. I joined Cathay on B scale and I've been a bottom feeder with Big Airways for a long time. No-one forced me to accept either position.

Back to the topic - are they hiring or not?

[JaxofMarlow]

Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining. If Ba isn't good enough for you then I suggest a different career because really it doesn't get any better.

Are you for real ? The arrogance, stupidity and rudeness of your posts are unbelievable. If you can offer guarantees as daft as this one I hope I never fly with you.

[anson harris]

Flybe then or wherever it was I'll guarantee you were earning way less than you are now for doing the exact same job. So quit whining.
Interesting thoughts from deep within the BA bubble, where it is a strongly held belief that every other airline job is terrible and probably unsafe.
Without even adjusting for inflation, BA is the lowest paid flying job I've ever had. But I look at the bigger picture and I am much happier here than anywhere I've been before. Money ain't everything.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

The futures of every single new pilot should never have been used as a bargaining chip in negotiations to protect the rights of a few. It was ultimately a very self serving thing to do from all involved which has ultimately devalued your own jobs as well as everyone else's. As I said I understand the reasons for voting that way and I doubt I would have done any different, but don't now pretend like we have nothing to complain about, you made a decision based on selfish reasons at least now have the balls to own that decision and not slag us off because we dared to question it.

Fair enough Enzo.

You say you understand the reasons we voted for PP34. If that is the case, please tell me what the alternative was. And what would have happened next had we voted the other way.

[HidekiTojo]

Are you for real ? The arrogance, stupidity and rudeness of your posts are unbelievable. If you can offer guarantees as daft as this one I hope I never fly with you.

Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy? the BA package is extremely well publicised and the competition to get a job here is intense. not making excuses for the fall in T&C's but making out like BA is some kind of internment camp is 100% false. it appears that many new joiners are happy to come on here and complain about a job they've been in for only a couple of years, they are probably the same people congratulating themselves on instagram immediately upon starting the job.

[SR71]

Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.

I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K.

Ratio: 0.63

Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K.

I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation.

How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps?

Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden.

Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy!

I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job.

Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.

[The Blu Riband]

if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers

Apparently there has been no shortage of applicants, many of whom would take a job with BA for much less pay - and irrespective of bidding / roster details.

We live in a world where P2F dictates the entry point for pilots and BA competes with both low-cost airlines and the ME carriers.

The pay and conditions for all of us has deteriorated relative to previous generations and the votes (arguably poorly managed and/or presented admittedly) which have led to a different pension scheme and starter rates were simply unavoidable. Those of us who have been with the airline for many years have seen some tough times and campaigned hard for the best T&Cs possible so to hear such negativity from those who've just joined is a little sad at best.
You really cannot blame the "senior" pilots for the interminable race to the bottom in the airline industry. In fact, i'd argue that the reverse is true!
Had BA pilots not shown a pragmatic approach and been willing to accept change would BA have been in a position to recruit onto the mainline seniority list.
And the argument holds true that if you've just joined without knowledge of BLR's and T&Cs, and are very disappointed, then now is the time to leave before becoming truly embittered.

[The Blu Riband]

the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.

Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly.

What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!

[thewisealderman]

Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.

I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K.

Ratio: 0.63

Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K.

I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation.

How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps?

Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden.

Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy!

I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job.

Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.

Welcome to the layer cake son

[Desk-pilot]

I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.

It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.

After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.

It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.

Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.

I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.

No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.

Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.

BA is what you make it! Think about it.

[Enzo999]

I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.

It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.

After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.

It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.

Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.

I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.

No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.

Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.

BA is what you make it! Think about it.

DP

That's all very nice but unfortunately never paying my mortgage is not really an option for me. Also I aspire to slightly more than just jumping off a cliff come my 65th birthday. If part time works for you then then great but for many it won't be an option.

[Enzo999]

Fair enough Enzo.

You say you understand the reasons we voted for PP34. If that is the case, please tell me what the alternative was. And what would have happened next had we voted the other way.

I would imagine had you voted the other way IAG might have only made £1.4 billion profit, a disaster for all concerned! As I said previously it's the union (if you can call it that) I have real issues with.

[Desk-pilot]

It might not be for everyone but there are options. I took the decision years ago to hold on to the house (4 bed detached £650k) despite not having the level of income required to support it when I left a well paid IT career to fly. That meant an interest only mortgage, even adding to the mortgage during the lean years.

I think on balance with the rise in property prices that's been a sensible decision. If I'd moved to a smaller property in order to remain on a repayment mortgage or even sold up to pay for Oxford in cash I'd be unable to afford such a house now even on a full time BA salary given the ludicrous house prices in the South East. If I never pay another penny off it I could still sell up and buy a decent home outside the South East with the £300k+ of equity.

The point is when you have kids you only get one shot at being there for them and you only get one shot at life. Spending your whole time at work to acquire wealth you may never spend is futile.

I'm certainly not suggesting that I have all the answers, just that many many people spend their whole life maximising their earnings and miss what's important and what makes them happy whoever you work for. I have a Brother in law who is a very successful corporate coach - one of the things he said to me is that people spend more time thinking about which new sofa to buy or what TV or car to get than really thinking about what makes them happy in life and how they might achieve it.

I'm only seeking to give a different approach to the 'must earn as much as I can' model. If I'd wanted to be rich I would have stayed in IT but I'm very very glad I didn't! I'd be sitting in a stuffy office right now writing project plans instead of sitting by a pool!

[SR71]

Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly.

What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!

Any evidence?

You didn't read my post did you?

I'm happy with my lot but not the system. At the point I'm not, I'll jump... There's some good perspective on this thread.

But I'd take my chances any day with a meritocracy or a "meet the requirement" paradigm. I've no idea why pilots think they're a special case in this respect. None of the "pro" arguments advanced are unique to the industry. But then again, if you'd not worked in another Sector, you wouldn't know would you....

[Tay Cough]

All seniority in BA gets you is the opportunity to change fleets/seats when your number comes up. You still have to pass - and a number don't.

[thetimesreader84]

Did we decide if the Lifeguard is back on duty, yanking people out of the pool, or was it just un poisson rouge?

[MikeAlpha320]

Will be very interesting if they've given out some 777 dates after last months email!

[bobbyboblington]

Is there any more information or are we stuck with 2 word answers?

[RexBanner]

To be fair I already posted this a couple of pages ago and someone else from Flybe has backed me up so I didn't really see the need to expand any more.

[JaxofMarlow]

Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy? the BA package is extremely well publicised and the competition to get a job here is intense. not making excuses for the fall in T&C's but making out like BA is some kind of internment camp is 100% false. it appears that many new joiners are happy to come on here and complain about a job they've been in for only a couple of years, they are probably the same people congratulating themselves on instagram immediately upon starting the job.

You truly are a bit of a wally. Strike Norwegian and add Monarch and you are on track. Like others have mentioned I would have had to take a pay drop to come to BA. Some newish joiners have made very reasonable comments about life at BA but I do not believe any have said anything that infers it is an internment camp. Quite the opposite. These are not spotty newbies. Many are very experienced pilots who have built hours and experience elsewhere and to be treated to your brand of arrogance is a tad annoying.

[akindofmagic]

Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy?

I'm at one of those (and used to be at another) and BA would be an absolute monster hit in terms of financial package.

[The Blu Riband]

You truly are a bit of a wally.

Please clarify.
Are you comparing starter salaries, or top end captain salaries?
How does a 10 yr BA SH capt compare to 10 yr at Easy or Ryanair?


Why would a relatively senior "Lowcost" capt want to go to BA anyway?
BA is a good choice for most youngish or junior pilots - but was never an obvious career move for established people, even 10-20 years ago!

Genuine questions!

[akindofmagic]

I think that the pull of long haul is still very strong for a lot of people in the same boat as me (although not me personally) i.e. young-ish short haul captains.

However, with the current exchange rate I net £8000 per month, I'm part time, with a comparatively very good pension. The maths doesn't stack up for me with BA, but (perhaps fortunately) I've never had to make the decision of whether to leave and go to BA!

[HidekiTojo]

Obviously comparing a time served captains package to a year 1 BA FO is stupid and by doing so you allow us all to see that you are pretty stupid. The point you completely miss is that a pilot joining BA makes that decision for themselves and all the required information is readily available so if you are unhappy you only have one person to blame.

Insulting me only confirms that what I say has some truth to it.

Desk pilot gave a great example of how BA offers a whole host of options for pilots to make the job work for them. If you can't make the most of it then again you only have one person to blame or it simply isn't the right job for you so you should leave. All the other airlines are hiring so what is your Excuse?

T&Cs well BA pilots are probably the most represented bunch around so if not already join balpa and fight for your oh so much deserved improvements there Mr year 2 BA first officer.

[thetimesreader84]

Not wanting to distract from the "is BA better than a LoCo" debate (answer; it depends), can we get back to the awarding of a 777 course? Is this just a one off (i.e. BA were running a 777 course anyway, and had a gap to fill) or is it the start of something a bit bigger?

[bobbyboblington]

To be fair I already posted this a couple of pages ago and someone else from Flybe has backed me up so I didn't really see the need to expand any more.
Fair enough, apologies I missed that in the thread.

[BASHLH]

Sorry to be the party pooper but I've just read on the BA Yammer Pilot Recruitment & FPP page that NS has confirmed that the 777 course rumour is NOT true.

Stay positive tho as I'm sure it won't be too long before things move again.

[basiljet]

Thanks BASHLH that's nice to know I'm sure for all us hold pool lot.

[thetimesreader84]

Thanks for the clarification. A bit disheartening, but better to be in the pool - especially in this heat!

[bobbyboblington]

I heard exactly the same from someone at the front of the queue. No thanks to whoever sparked this, it only makes a difficult situation worse.

[polepilot]

I on the contrary am grateful to those that hear rumours and take the time to fill us in on here, no one knows what they hear is 100% accurate!

[VJW]

No but Rex's tone would have you believe he was the one in BA making those decisions.

[RexBanner]

Sorry if I got this one wrong guys but it is a rumour network after all. I was having breakfast with a friend the other day who gave me that info, then another Flybe person came along and "confirmed" the rumour. I don't know how they've got their wires crossed so badly but it is strange that both have heard the same thing. Anyway best of luck to you guys in the pool, hope you hear something positive soon.

[bobbyboblington]

Fair enough, as polepilot said it's not called PPTruNe.

[HighPi]

Apparently recruitment is going to pick up again (a lot) next year, but not sure which fleets.

[FACoff]

Nice to hear but where did that news come from?

[sudden twang]

Apologies if already mentioned but BA issued aspirational part time contracts last week starting early 2018 which came as a happy surprise to some.
Hope That cheers some of you up

[basiljet]

That's wonderful news thanks for posting! Can we assume this gives some hope for us in the pool or is it more to alleviate too many crew?

[eckhard]

Spoke to someone today in Flight Technical Training (Ground-School) who said that 2018 was going to be "manic on all fleets" and that they were recruiting extra instructors. Don't know how many of these courses will be internal BA fleet changes but I reckon a fair few will be external recruitment.

[FoxChaRomeo]

I'm told there are up to 60 FPP cadets who have been delayed into next year, and that they will likely have priority over any DEP entrants as the company have a 'duty of fairness' to them. In reality, the training department might have something to say about that of course.

I was also told that there would be a total intake of around 150 crew in 2018, inc FPP, suggesting ~90 from the hold pool, but potentially later on in the year if the FPP guys/gals are starting first. Suggestion was that hold pool expiry dates might be extended again.

All rumours of course - I was told this by a friend in the company who spoke to someone in pilot resourcing, but it seems, per SOP, there isn't really a definitive plan at the moment!

[WonderBus]

The annual bid has just opened and the results won't be out until November at best. Once they are out and the number of part time contracts are taken into consideration I imagine there will be a better picture for 2018 towards the end of this year.

That said they won't keep extending the holdpool deadline for no reason, if they didn't want people they would let them fall out, I hope so for all of you swimming any way. Good luck.

[Saab0409]

Thanks for the information everyone, all small pieces to the puzzle of a larger picture. For those of us that will 'drown' within the next 4 months (like myself) its hoping for an extension of at least another 6 months. I have heard the 150 number as well but mainly on the mini bus. 'Just keep swimming, just keep swimming.'

[FlipFlapFlop]

I would Saab, but the water is round my ears now. Think I will stay where I am.

[RexBanner]

BA issued aspirational part time contracts last week starting early 2018 which came as a happy surprise to some.
Hope That cheers some of you up

Added to which the waitlist for RTR (Right to Request) is standing at over a year and counting. There are large numbers of us (even us relative youngsters) who realise part time is the only way forward in this game nowadays.

(Edited to add that the trainer I flew with a couple of nights ago also used the adjective manic to describe 2018. 150 would seem to be low balling it if these guys are to be believed. However nothing is certain until it happens.)

[WonderBus]

For you guys still waiting, the guys in recruitment have said on yammer (not to be taken as gospel) that the current hold pool will be used to fill next years' direct entry requirements. I know information is always hard to come by whilst you're waiting, so hope this helps.

[thetimesreader84]

All the hold pool? There are quite a lot of us for what people are saying aren't that many slots.

Thanks for the info Wonderbus. You're right, information is hard to come by, I appreciate we are a long way down the list when it comes to hard info, but it doesn't make it any easier. Sometimes it feels like the story of the 3 blind men and the elephant!

[RexBanner]

Before reading that much into it, remember that not so long ago they said exactly the same about the current hold pool and the 2017 requirement. The other thing is they don't even know how many in the pool would (or are in a position to) still take the job. So it is difficult to see how there is any certainty in the plan right now.

[bex88]

Rex on the pension front that may affect things too. NAPS looks like it will get wrapped up or at least that's what the company want. That may cause more people on NAPS to go part time to draw their pension and lock it in so to speak. As far as BARP is concerned from the lady who is in charge of this ", a clarification re BARP: any changes we propose will look to increase rather than reduce the pension current BARP members can earn." I think with the closure of NAPS BARP will be improved to try and smooth a transitional path for those in NAPS.

[PressTheTit]

Is there any likelihood that VA will lure any 787 FOs away from BA with their latest recruitment? If so, I assume this would be (selfishly) positive news for swimmers?

[FoxChaRomeo]

Is there any likelihood that VA will lure any 787 FOs away from BA with their latest recruitment? If so, I assume this would be (selfishly) positive news for swimmers?

My ill-educated assumption would be no. I'm not sure what your seniority would need to be at BA to get onto the 787, but I guess you'd need a solid few years of service. Not sure why you'd leave that to start at the bottom again with VS. I suspect Norwegian drivers would be more likely to jump to Virgin.

Can't fault your optimism PressTheTit, but it might be misplaced this time...

[VJW]

As a fellew swimmer I'd say the above is probably true, it's unlikely any BA 78 FO's would jump to VS. What might have happened though is the BA pool might have got a bit thinner if there were people in who've now gone to VS while waiting for BA to call?!

[Snapper5]

Virgin have a much more streamlined seniority procedure compared to BA , even if you are junior in VA you still can get some bids in due to the seniority group rotation .

[4468]

Virgin also have a history of laying junior people off when they are struggling. Which they seem to do with monotonous regularity! AFAIK BA have NEVER made compulsory redundancies!

Take your choice chaps!

[wiggy]

Re FoxChaRomeo's comment from 5 July.


I was also told that there would be a total intake of around 150 crew in 2018, inc FPP, suggesting ~90 from the hold pool, but potentially later on in the year if the FPP guys/gals are starting first.

FWIW a very senior flight ops manager said pretty much the same in a face to face forum in the last few days, i.e. get the "graduated" FPPs waiting in the wings started, then (and here he was slightly more optimistic) go to the hold pool for perhaps 100 plus. Doing the sums it looks like a total intake of FPPs / DEPs of perhaps 200, tops,...but of course that plan is probably already out of date..............


( yes I know, somewhere somebody is muttering "I thought that selfish old f*** had "gone away" :p ...)

[thetimesreader84]

Did anyone ever find out how many of us are in the hold pool? I have this sinking feeling some of us might be disappointed next year.

[polepilot]

If indeed that is true will it be those at the front of the que or those at the back I wonder, though on a more positive outlook nobody knows the actual number of people swimming and some may already have moved elsewhere. So in conclusion i guess it makes nothing any clearer!

[Saab0409]

Hard to tell I suppose, I've heard an inkling of a rumor they might extend the hold pool time again. Time will tell, I know 2 or 3 guys/gals in the pool are moving to different airlines or taking an upgrade at their own place.

[VJW]

More great news for the holdpoolers!

[Saab0409]

No DEP for 2018... Holding time extended to another year but an interview is required if, big if, a start date is eventually given in 2019.

[MikeAlpha320]

so, when is virgin opening up then? :}

[wiggy]

No DEP for 2018

Are you able to provide a source for that?

No DEPs at all for '18 contradicts info being put out by a v senior BA flight Ops wheel in a meeting a couple of weeks back. Then again, he could have been being kept in the dark as much as anybody else, and plans certainly change on a daily basis.

[VJW]

Wiggy if you were swimming you'd have an email from the source as of 1 hour ago ;)

[wiggy]

Ahh..really sorry to hear that...

So much for management forums..

Good luck, hope the swimmers get something that works out.

[EMB-145LR]

CTC Whitetail self sponsored cadets have (or shortly will be) selected to join us in 2018/19. It would seem that they are interviewed after their ground exams are complete. Min requirements being an 85% average on their ATPLs and BBC at A-Level or equivalent. These new 'cadets' seem to be filling the hole left by the lack of FPPs once the last batch join at the end of this year/beginning of 2018.

I'm sure that it's completely coincidental that our former head of short haul joined CTC last year(!)

[Ea300]

I don't want to be rude but can someone explain

Why are they putting cadets in front of 200 experienced, tried and tested proven pilots. whom most would bend over backwards to work for BA. Especially those of us coming from low cost airlines ?

[wiggy]

Personally no idea, if they really have deliberately displaced those in the pool in favour of cadets then maybe in the current climate BA management have decided they want a younger malleable "product" :yuk:...after all that's a concept that has worked really well with Mixed Fleet.

OTOH if you fancy darker conspiracy theories I'd refer you to the final sentence in EMB-145LR's post....it's as good a guess as any.

[Ea300]

A lot of the guys in the hold pool are the same age as the cadets. Who knows I guess. Very disappointed to say the least to be waiting this long with little or no information.

[Jwscud]

If I were being cynical I would say that over the first 8 years in the company they are paid a significant amount less than DEPs and are simply much cheaper.

[Enzo999]

They are cheap! Cadets will work for a third of money and pay for all their own training an ideal combo for AC. Race to the bottom accelerates all the time.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Why are they putting cadets in front of 200 experienced, tried and tested proven pilots. whom most would bend over backwards to work for BA. Especially those of us coming from low cost airlines ?

A few less £££ on the spreadsheet.

That's it. That's all BA care about.

[bex88]

Unfortunately it's not a huge surprise. The FPP if it runs again is going to look very different. All I heard is BA is no longer prepared to carry the debt on their books. What does that mean? You will have to secure the funding yourself........! The whole point was to find great guys and girls regardless of their ability to secure a loan. Looks like that's gone and it's a great shame. The bods in flight ops have their view but accountants rule it seems. As far as DEP being overlooked for cadets from flight schools first I have heard of it but you have got to expect BA to be looking at other airlines SH FO costs with green eyes. Any accountant will be asking why we are paying newly recruited FO's on the airbus so much more than other airlines. LH granted very different as you require experience but the FPP has proven that BA can operate its SH network with less experience in the RHS. With that we have got to expect an appetite to reduce cost by aiming to recruit cadets. Very often though what is said and what people hear are very different. It would surly take a large policy change and BALPA's agreement to recruit cadets from flight school directly ahead of those in the pool.

BA has to compete with the loco's and it's serious about doing so. With increasing momentum we are becoming one but BA is always going to cater for the smaller premium businesss on SH too. First it was productivity from pilots, then came the FPP, then changes to allowances and flight pay, after that it was the vote for bidline 2. That was the wrong option so we had to vote again until we got it right with JSS coming next year. The product has changed with BOB, outstation staff have been replaced with handling agents etc etc. It not desirable but I do believe it is necessary. Don't believe everything you hear as often it's doom only for it to turn out to be a bit of a pain in the arse.

[RexBanner]

Just a question Bex though, why exactly is it necessary when we are making £1.5 Billion in profit, way more than easyJet and Norwegian (whose CFO has incidentally just walked out without notice because they can't afford to finance the new aircraft)? Whether or not Short Haul is as profitable in its own right as easyJet or Ryanair is absolutely irrelevant because BA is not (for now) separated into Long Haul and Short Haul, the financial results are posted as the single entity that the company is. As a single entity the profits are exceeding a Billion for three years on the spin now and Short Haul feeds the Long Haul. What does it ultimately matter what the cost base for Short Haul is in comparison to other airlines when we are vastly out performing them in financial results? Maybe I'm missing something - I have been accused of being slow in the past - but I really do need this explained. This is not a company in poverty. Granted that doesn't mean we should accept inefficiencies and gross wastes but you cannot provide a premium product by outsourcing everything. That's just basic stuff. It sickens me how this brand is being cheapened by some two bob low cost CEO.

[bex88]

You make some good points Rex. The return on investment is less and investors want a greater return. The message is fairly clear. Those who are prepared to pay want a better product, everyone else wants it cheap and shareholders want greater returns. Profits are up yes but what about the revenue? I am just a simple guy really so it's probably me missing something.

[PressTheTit]

There seems to be the assumption made that Holdpoolers (NTR) wouldn't be prepared to self fund a TR or be prepared to accept the lower pay of a CTC cadet? (Which looks to be the way BA are going).

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA. I used to believe that BA was one of the few airlines remaining that valued some previous life and aviation experience when recruiting FOs but that looks to have died a death.

Anyway to my original point, why not ask the NTR in the pool if they would be willing to self fund or pay back TR costs? Or is it a case of not wanting to declare what BA has become?

Sorry to other swimmers for volunteering lower Ts and Cs but I think the writing is on the wall for me and others. Looks like I will have to go and pay CTC 10k+ to validate my flying experience to date, sad times!

[wiggy]

Lots of very (sadly) valid comment above,

bex, I may be missing the context for this comment, if so apologies, but can you clarify what you meant by:

It would surly take a large policy change and BALPA's agreement to recruit cadets from flight school directly ahead of those in the pool.

(my emphasis)

I may be misinformed from time to time but AFAIK BALPA has no input into BA's recruiting mechanism and I suspect BALPA would have had no say at all at in this decision

Sorry if I'm sounding picky but I'm just trying to stop stories along the lines of "being stitched up by BALPA/senior pilots" starting to circulate - we've had enough of those already ;) .

[EMB-145LR]

The company haven't said they won't be plucking people out of the pool, just that there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018. The impression that I get is that the Whitetail cadets will replace any future FPP recruitment, at least in the short to medium term. If the FPP does make a comeback, it will probably be under very different conditions to previous intakes.

On Yammer (our internal social media board), the pilot recruitment team have said that next years intake will come from the remaining FPPs, the DEP hold pool and towards the end of the year, Whitetail cadets from CTC.

PressTheTit; don't panic, and for the love of god don't lower yourself to accepting inferior conditions just to fly for BA. It's a good place to work, but that is because of what it offers in terms of the overall pay and benefits package. You would actively be undermining everything that you think BA offers just to be a BA pilot. As for going to CTC for their post training AQC or whatever it's called now; don't. The pilot recruitment team have stated that whitetail cadets will only be selected after finishing ground school and before starting their flight training.

Why only CTC whitetails and not Oxford, Jerez et el? Well that's where my cynicism comes from regarding the position now held by the former head of short haul.

[BASHLH]

I'm more concerned with experience levels. I think it's great that a cross section of the pilot community are given a chance to work for a major airline whatever your background, but weighing to heavily on inexperienced white tales can't be the way forward. We need a good mix of DEP & cadets which keeps experience levels at a safe & sensible level. Clearly this is a financial move, unfortunately IAG are ruthless! Our airline that I'm proud to fly for is really being dragged through the mud at the mo due to AC. I wish he'd naff off to LEVEL... far more his bag!

To the current holdpoolers this is obviously very frustrating news but this is today's plan... all will change & with 20 plus retiring just this month I'm sure the need for DEP's will come back to fruition in the not too distant future!

[bex88]

Hey Wiggy.

No assault on BALPA intended. If new terms were introduced for DEP cadets I would have thought that any change to employment contracts would have to go through the union. Perhaps that's only the case for existing employees. BALPA looks after a wide demographic and it's never going to be possible to represent the margins. Straight up honesty we all look after ourselves then the group. PP24/PP34 NAPS/BARP etc etc.....you know what fair play that was the deal at the time. My interest is more towards having a strong and stable (Thanks Theresa) company over the argument of self funded type ratings etc. Yes I paid for mine and yes my salary was reduced for experience or lack of at my first employer.

[bex88]

EMB-145LR. Post 3902 That's all anyone needs to read. Spot on and almost the same as I witnessed in response to a colleagues questioning.

[thetimesreader84]

there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018

Just for clarity, my email says no DEP at all in 2018 - it makes no distinction between Type rated / Non type rated.

I was going to write about my opinions of CTC and how it applies to this situation, but have deleted the draft. The whole thing is just sad. I always thought that outside of its own Cadet scheme, BA valued experience for its crews. Obviously no longer. Race to the bottom intensifies.

Good luck everyone. Not sure where I go from here to be honest. It's not the "no recruitment" that stings, it's (if true) being passed over (once again) in favour of a 350 hour "white tail" hero with deep pockets and a debt to service.

[RexBanner]

The company haven't said they won't be plucking people out of the pool, just that there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018.

I have to concur with the above post on this issue, the copy of the email sent to hold poolers that I have been party to makes no reference to either type rated/non type rated. It simply says that no one in the hold pool will get a start date in 2018. This email postdates any information about the recruitment plan on yammer so the stuff on there is already out of date.

[FACoff]

Hugely disappointing. I'm well accustomed to the 'cost of everything, value of nothing' mentality at my current airline, but how sad to see the same now being applied at BA.

I've been through BA's highly unpleasant and convoluted recruitment process several times to get this far and now they want yet another interview. And when does this extra year in the pool even extend to? From our initial year, from 18 months...? I was due to expire mid next year - do I now expire mid 2019?

Either way, 2019 is a long way away, and with the prospect of a job offer becoming ever more speculative I imagine many in the pool will have taken other roads long before BA open the doors to DEP again. What a shame.

[FoxChaRomeo]

What am I missing? The email directly contradicts things that I and others (namely Wiggy) have heard directly from within the company, and it includes the caveat that everything is...

"subject to change as we have not yet received the network plan for 2018 nor has the pilot annual bid been completed."

So why send an email out that will only disappoint/piss off people when it may well turn out to be inaccurate? Clearly there are greater forces at work behind the scenes...

Count me in the pissed off group. BA was always the goal, and I threw my heart and soul into the recruitment (the application for which went in a year ago today coincidentally) and now the goal posts continue to move. Assuming (brave, given their form!) that I might get an offer sometime early 2019, I'll be within a year of a command course where I am...

[polepilot]

I personally think for all of those in the holdpool (including myself) it might be time to swallow the bitter pill and assume this time round it just wont happen. For the recruitment team to be bold enough to say at this stage they expect no offers to be made to those in the pool in 2018 means just that and they wouldnt send that message out without a strong belief in it based on whats infront of them. Like many (i assume) im gutted but i think being hopefull (especially at this stage) is probably more detrimental than positive.

[akindofmagic]

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA.

Everything that's wrong with this industry neatly encapsulated in one sentence. How terribly sad.

[RHS]

Everything that's wrong with this industry neatly encapsulated in one sentence. How terribly sad.

Could not agree more. Offering to pay a TR undermines all of your future colleagues, and is the exact reason that BA and others are now going down a "white tail cadet" route.

Go and watch Tony Kerns 2014 CHC flight safety lecture on YouTube, he explains far more succinctly and eloquently what is happening here than I possibly could.

[Ea300]

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA. I used to believe that BA was one of the few airlines remaining that valued some previous life and aviation experience when recruiting FOs but that looks to have died a death.

Anyway to my original point, why not ask the NTR in the pool if they would be willing to self fund or pay back TR costs? Or is it a case of not wanting to declare what BA has become?

Sorry to other swimmers for volunteering lower Ts and Cs but I think the writing is on the wall for me and others. Looks like I will have to go and pay CTC 10k+ to validate my flying experience to date, sad times!


I agree.

I would also accept to pay for a type rating or bond scheme. Not because I'm an desperate or unhappy (I'm am one of the youngest Capt in my company) but because I have a long career ahead of me and happy to look at the bigger picture

Just a shame if I don't get the chance to prove it

[PressTheTit]

Ouch, that hurts.

Draft rant deleted

I respect your comments.

[RexBanner]

You're "happy to look at the bigger picture"? A more deliciously ironic statement you could not had found.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA

I hear what you are saying and I actually don't blame you, it is easy to turn around from a position of relative comfort and throw stones at the guys following the same path, but you have to accept that this huge desire (desperation) you and others have will ultimately bring the house down on all our Ts&Cs.

And the problem is that BA know this.

Good luck and I hope you get what you want - but only on the present terms and conditions!

[thetimesreader84]

And when someone comes and undercuts you for your command, or Long Haul, or Part Time, or whatever your aspiration is? Is that ok, because they are "looking at the bigger picture"? What about those of us who are already rated? Are we shut out because we don't fit in the "bigger picture"?

This crab - bucket mentality absolutely stinks. This will be the third time in my career I've been passed over from hold pools in favour of CTC / zero hours cadets and it absolutely stinks. You stink.

[PressTheTit]

For the record, I find the whole CTC cadet thing extremely distasteful (Oxford MPL even more so). However as long as the rules allow for dangerously low hour pilots to sit in the RHS (and hope that an issue doesn't require any experience to fall back on), then the gravy train will continue.

As much as it stinks, it is the reality! No amount of encouraging others not to do what you have probably already done will change anything.

I stand by my earlier comments, if I end up in the RHS £20k lighter then so be it. That is the reality everywhere else, and some!

[thetimesreader84]

Ok, so it's every man for himself. Gotcha.

And no, I've never paid for a rating. Or paid off a training bond to jump ship. More fool me.

[FlipFlapFlop]

The more I read on this thread the more I am happy with my decision to stay where I am. BA is heading the same way anyway. Once a beacon holding out against the race to the bottom, it appears they have just joined the race. I will loose the opportunity of long haul in the future but will have had a command many many many years earlier.

[FlipFlapFlop]

And when someone comes and undercuts you for your command, or Long Haul, or Part Time, or whatever your aspiration is? Is that ok, because they are "looking at the bigger picture"? What about those of us who are already rated? Are we shut out because we don't fit in the "bigger picture"?

This crab - bucket mentality absolutely stinks. This will be the third time in my career I've been passed over from hold pools in favour of CTC / zero hours cadets and it absolutely stinks. You stink.

Absolutely. 10 years in and still coming second to zero hours cadets. I aspired to BA because I respected the company and for the future chance of LH. I would have left my LHS to do it. Not now.

[Ea300]

For the record, I find the whole CTC cadet thing extremely distasteful (Oxford MPL even more so). However as long as the rules allow for dangerously low hour pilots to sit in the RHS (and hope that an issue doesn't require any experience to fall back on), then the gravy train will continue.

As much as it stinks, it is the reality! No amount of encouraging others not to do what you have probably already done will change anything.

I stand by my earlier comments, if I end up in the RHS £20k lighter then so be it. That is the reality everywhere else, and some!

Agreed

And for The record for those of you who jump down our throats for saying the truth. I believe we both are in the hold pool and worked hard to get here.

[Tay Cough]

Hugely disappointing. I'm well accustomed to the 'cost of everything, value of nothing' mentality at my current airline, but how sad to see the same now being applied at BA.

It's been like that at BA for most of my twenty years there. Get used to it.

[Officer Kite]

I'm interested if any of you back in the day were handed a place on a cadet course leading to employment with BA, would you have rejected on moral principle and out of respect to those who were applying via direct entry? I think not ... I look through historical posts through some people in this thread and find a couple from earlier days regarding flight training, the likes of CTC/OAA et al being discussed etc etc ... yet now integrated schools producing cadets are the dark enemy?

Cadet programmes have been on for yonks and as far as I'm aware there is no correlation between them and aircraft crashing ... we don't want FAA 1500hr madness in Europe either so things are fine as they are.

Just to add, the FPP could not have exactly been cheap for BA. They paid the cadets in the region of £45,000+ flying pay, in addition to repaying them £84,000 training costs in the form of £12,000 a year. I'm not sure exactly on the numbers and how it all compares to a DE FO's salary, but unless they start DE guys on something like £65,000/annum it is hard to see how they have really made many savings? Probably some, but surely not enough to make any sort of a dent in the books.

[EMB-145LR]

Cadet programmes have been on for yonks and as far as I'm aware there is no correlation between them and aircraft crashing ... we don't want FAA 1500hr madness in Europe either so things are fine as they are fine as they are.

I think people are getting wrapped up in the premise of cadet only recruitment. BA have always recruited from a wide range of backgrounds and experience. I'm sure that will continue. This is not the first time Whitetail cadets have been taken on. I have several friends who joined BA from Oxford this way in the mid 2000s.

Regarding the '1500hr madness' imposed by the FAA; I'm not sure it's actually all that bad a thing. I flew for a couple of the US regionals for five years. The 1500hr rule was introduced just after I moved over there. In the space of just half a decade the average starting salary of a brand new FO at a regional has TRIPLED from $20,000 per year to $60,000 year. Additionally 'signing' bonuses of up to $25k are being offered as an incentive to join various carriers. In turn money on offer at the 'majors' has also increased exponentially. US pilots are now some of the best paid in the world.

Now I realise our significantly smaller demand for GA flying in Europe means that such a rule would never work here; but don't mistake the impact of the eagerness to get straight into the right hand seat of a jet at any cost as being anything other than detrimental to your future terms and conditions.

Everyone has to start somewhere, we're very lucky to have a great mixture of experience at BA. The opportunity to join will come up again. It's awful the way it has turned out for many this time, and for that you have my sympathy. Unfortunately with BA this isn't the first time and it won't be the last.

[Ea300]

I agree that cadets have every right to a chance as DEP. And for sure if was in the position to take that route I would.

I'm just surprised how much the holdpool candidates have been kept in the dark and prehaps lead on abit over the past year and a half.

Very disappointing for us I guess.

[Vokes55]

Amazing how many people on here think they're owed a job, even more amazing to see how many are willing to undermine every single one of their future colleagues and lower T&Cs just to 'fly for BA'.

But then again, the most important thing is the selfie hanging out of the flight deck window wearing your hat, trying to prove to all of your fake Facebook friends that your life isn't so miserable.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Sorry, nothing really to do with the post, but just had a chuckle to myself on reading the pros and cons of experience versus cadets.

I moved seats 18 months ago in Airways and its always an interesting day out with with some of our FPP Legends... ;)

[BASHLH]

Ha yeh... there's even one of them on Yammer asking what pay scale he will go to next year when he gets his Command....

[Ea300]

Amazing how many people on here think they're owed a job, even more amazing to see how many are willing to undermine every single one of their future colleagues and lower T&Cs just to 'fly for BA'.

But then again, the most important thing is the selfie hanging out of the flight deck window wearing your hat, trying to prove to all of your fake Facebook friends that your life isn't so miserable.

Wow

Abit much. I'll take fake Facebook friends over trolling and being rude on a anonymous forum.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Wow, A bit much.
Says everything really. There was nothing rude about this post unless you do hang out of the flight deck window and post a pic on FB. If you do then you are seriously sad. The point of the post was serious. BA was the pinnacle of commercial flying in the UK. They had a mix of cadet and direct experienced intake. There is a place for cadets and that is healthy. But 100% ? It is clearly done because an a**e wipe accountant has won over on the financial argument.
Personally I will have to accept that a ten year desire to fly my flag is over having finally got into the swim pool. I will just have to make do with my LCC LHS. Reading some of the comments on here I am today not so unhappy about this.

[blimey]

Joining seniority 4000+. 2033 and you're now still 3000+. Bidline goes early next year.

It has its attractions but it's not the only show in town. If it doesn't happen for you, enjoy what you have.

[Ea300]

It was a joke

Relax

[FlipFlapFlop]

Spot on. The biggest issue is the seniority list for experienced direct entry.

[Jumbo2]

I'm sorry but you lost me here; Why would the current seniority system be unfair for DEP?

[thetimesreader84]

There is a place for cadets and that is healthy. But 100% ?

100% cadets, of which we are led to believe a sizeable %age are not on a tagged scheme as such, hired before a pool of experienced, proven, already recruited professional pilots.

[akindofmagic]

I'm sorry but I lost you here; Why would the current seniority system be unfair for DEP?

I don't thing there's anything 'unfair' to DEPs. It's more that if you join as a 30+ DEP, you'll never have enough seniority to be able to do anything 'useful'. Looking in from outside, it looks more and more like joining much older than mid-twenties may well not pay off (depending on what you want from your career of course).

[Threethirty]

Not the case at all, you can get a 320 command in next to no time now.

[EMB-145LR]

BA is not offering your jobs to cadets! Any whitetails that are selected won't be joining the company until 2019 at the earliest. They won't have even begun their basic practical flight training when they are selected, only their ATPL exams will be complete.

Cadet recruitment just requires a much longer lead in time than DEP recruitment. The average cadet takes nearly two years to hit the line. A DEP can join in a matter of months.

The whitetails are replacing any future FPP courses. There is no change to BAs recruitment strategy of hiring DEPs, Managed Path and cadet pilots. All that is changing is the source of those cadets.

Hiring in 2018 will be exclusively from the FPPs pool. Those pilots were selected by BA two and a half years ago, and the majority finished their training a while back and have been waiting for a good, long while. In fact the company is currently addressing how they can revalidate their instrument ratings in preparation for starting a type rating course.

Come 2019 new joiners will no doubt come from both the DEP holdpool and the whitetail cadets that are currently being selected.

This does not signal the end of DEPs at BA. The company is just reverting to how it hired cadets in the last decade after full sponsorship stopped and before the FPP began.

Undoubtedly, BA will change the plan six times in the next 12 months anyway! So don't be surprised if you get a call asking if you can be on a type rating course in a weeks time!!

[RexBanner]

I'm interested if any of you back in the day were handed a place on a cadet course leading to employment with BA, would you have rejected on moral principle and out of respect to those who were applying via direct entry? I think not ... I look through historical posts through some people in this thread and find a couple from earlier days regarding flight training, the likes of CTC/OAA et al being discussed etc etc ... yet now integrated schools producing cadets are the dark enemy?

If you are in any way referring to me I'd suggest you look where I went after Oxford. I took a job with Flybe where I paid nothing for a type rating, joined the company on the proper First Officer pay scale, expenses paid during training and didn't undermine anyone to get my first job. I made a conscious decision before I even started training that I would never go to Ryanair out of pure principle. I also turned down the chance to apply for the APPFO Plus scheme at easyJet. Granted I got a bit lucky in that I got the only job I could have got in the circumstances but my conscience is clear thanks.

[BASHLH]

Not the case at all, you can get a 320 command in next to no time now.

Not true... so far Zero 320 commands in 2017 apart from a couple of waifs. There may be a few towards the end of the year as now more are moving than expected to LH due to part time being sorted, but I'm sure it'll be bk up to 2200-2500 seniority as usual. 2016 was a freq year!

All as I keep saying things keep changing daily in BA, having done a bit of research I agree that the majority of the white tales will be 2019 onwards... DEP's will always fill the gap.

[RexBanner]

Are we really saying (at the moment) only 65 pilots to join the company in 2018 though? We've got increased commands on Long Haul because of part time, part time in the right hand seat and new aircraft coming. Not to mention the retirements. 65 pilots, really? We're not that overcrewed!

[VJW]

Rex just a quick one on your conscious decision never to join Ryanair etc.

I'm not sure that doing an £80k+ integrated course at Oxford compared to my modular course that cost me £30k and subsequent RYR type rating at £25k, makes you any better than those who just picked a different route. Having done the Oxford route and paid twice the price as some of us doing a modular course, you opened up doors to yourself that modular guys didn't have - especially at that time. Be careful sounding too proud when all you did was avoid paying £15k to flybe for a type rating that would have pushed your total training costs close to £100k.

Before training I made the conscious decision never to go to Oxford for the same reasons you didn't want to go to RYR.

[RexBanner]

Small point but it wasn't £80k in 2008. It was just over £65k, adjusted for inflation though probably similar (but you'd have to adjust your figures too). I'm not saying it makes me any better or worse but someone was clearly implying hypocrisy and generalizing Oxford students (whether it was directed at me or not) and I was just defending myself and others who went to Oxford and didn't pay for ratings at the end of it. That's all.

[VJW]

I hear you - but again the point they might have been making was you paid double for a the same blue cased licence as those that went modular and didn't have the same opportunities.

Did you ever see, or has there ever been a modular cadet that went straight to BA or Easy for that matter?

The figures I quoted for myself it what I paid in 2008 so to compare:

I paid £55k for a licence and type rating.
You paid 'just over' £65k for a licence and type rating..

What's a tiny bit frustrating for me now, is to pass the BA selection, and 9 years after completing my licences, there is still Integrated newbies who haven't even passed their training yet, that will join BA, be higher on the seniority list and sitting in both the RHS and eventually LHS in the company before people like myself will.

[RexBanner]

BA is not offering your jobs to cadets! Any whitetails that are selected won't be joining the company until 2019 at the earliest. They won't have even begun their basic practical flight training when they are selected, only their ATPL exams will be complete.

EMB-145LR It is my firm belief that they are identifying these whitetail cadets who are at the end of their ground school right NOW. Otherwise it's a remarkable case of timing and coincidence that - right at the same time that they sent out the email to the holdpoolers with the bad news - they were surveying their pilots to confirm whether or not they would meet the newly formed entry requirements for consideration for the white tail scheme. I smell a rat.

The second thing is, as I said earlier in the thread, I cannot see how they are going to cover the requirement for pilots in 2018 with 65 FPP cadets. There must be a lot more movement in the pipeline than that.

(VJW I hear you and I'm firmly in your corner by the way)

[Stocious]

Ha yeh... there's even one of them on Yammer asking what pay scale he will go to next year when he gets his Command....

What's wrong with that? The early FPP's will be unfrozen this year and will have the hours required. Is it any different to 5 year commands at another company?

I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!

[VJW]

I for one dont feel sorry for them- oh how I wish I had that problem at the end of my training.

I KNEW BA was not going to call! ;)

[Stocious]

Well, you pays your money and you takes your choice don't you? You could have waited another 5 years for the FPP to come along. I did, but that was only as there was no other option for me. :ok:

[VJW]

Yup- same can be said for the FPP guys you feel so desperately sorry for now..

[wiggy]

Are we really saying (at the moment) only 65 pilots to join the company in 2018 though?

I agree with your scepticism on that number Rex. Even if the v senior manager I mentioned earlier had been kept in the dark about a change of policy of new joiners he would have had an handle on the number of b**s needed on seats...and he was quoting the need for far more than 65.

[Northern Monkey]

Personally I can't believe the number will be anywhere near that low. If anything I would have said they would want to slightly over crew next year because the JSS implementation is BOUND to throw up issues, BA having such an amazing record at implementing new IT projects.

Not only that but the general morale level at BA is the worst I've seen it since I joined which is likely to result in further requests for early retirement / part time.

This looks like more short termism from our management team.

[thetimesreader84]

I think the inference is that recruitment next year will be FPP first, then "white tail", then any crumbs from that table will be passed to DEP, probably type rated first.

[FlipFlapFlop]

I'm sorry but you lost me here; Why would the current seniority system be unfair for DEP?

Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Not the case at all, you can get a 320 command in next to no time now.

Ho Ho Ho.... and Father Christmas really exists.

[nrn]

Are you serious. As an early thirties potential joiner with 8000 hours and ten years experience and now a LHS at a Loco can you believe I would be less than enamoured to find myself behind a zero hours cadet for a future command should I eventually be deemed worthy. For me, the system works against experienced pilots but then again I suppose it is meant to.

Why do you think you are so special? Just because you've got a command you think you are "worth" more than a cadet? You will be doing the same job as that cadet, nothing more, nothing less. BA is a seniority driven airline, don't like it--> don't apply.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Do not recall saying I was special, just a lot more experienced. Why not put cadets in both seats then. Your comment is unnecessarily aggressive. Yes BA is seniority driven but I did apply. There are many other attractions to BA over where I am. But I have decided to stay and I just said why so I do not need your nasty views when you have no idea what drives me. And I think the salary difference between a captain and a cadet sort of implies others think so to.

[Enzo999]

So experience has no value? Nice to know.

[VJW]

Don't worry mate, his aggressiveness comes from someone who was probably a FPP cadet and actually thinks he's special.

As a capt - I know I'd rather have someone with 8000 hours next to me compared to a 200 hour cadet. Simple put, yes an 8000 hour pilot is worth much more than a 200 hour cadet. The latter often increase my workload rather than alleviate it.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Maybe. I expect it is his worthless experience that got him a P2 seat on 787.

[wiggy]

Hopefully the reality of how the seniority system works at BA cannot be a surprise to any one sitting in the hold pool who performed due diligence.

I know it's been said before but here it is again: like it or not pretty much everything in BA is governed by date of joining....you must assume the pilot who joined a day/week/month ahead of you will get first shot at a command course unless there's a very rare combination of circumstance. In the 90s and later the likes of the Prestwick Cadets got commands ahead of DEPs who had joined from the forces/other airlines, and unless the rules change you can expect the FPPs and the possible "white tales" to get a shot at command ahead of any high hours LHSeaters joining from FR, Emirates or wherever.

[VJW]

Not sure anyone sounded surprised. Disappointed perhaps.

Someone definitely sounded a bit arrogant. While everyone starts at the bottom in BA, to suggest a person with 8000 hours at the bottom is bringing the same to the table as a 200 hour cadet is simply wrong.

[FlipFlapFlop]

True wiggy and yes I was well aware when I applied. But when I applied I was RHS at a LoCo. There were a number who joined BA in the previous intake and achieved LHS there within two years as long as they had the relevant experience. This made it attractive to apply. In the intervening period I have moved to LHS and the significant increase in salary is very important when you have young children. The seniority list at BA has become static and the road to command now looks a lot longer so to experienced applicants the proposition appears less attractive. Do not get me wrong. I would have loved to have flown for BA but the length of time to command means for someone like me in my circumstances, it is no longer the right choice.

The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.

[BASHLH]

What's wrong with that? The early FPP's will be unfrozen this year and will have the hours required. Is it any different to 5 year commands at another company?

I feel for those in the DEP hold pool, but cadet-bashing helps nobody, and must be particularly galling to those that gave up other careers for the FPP and are now sat in jobless limbo as well, wondering if BA will ever give them a start date!

Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!

[nrn]

I wish I was a FPP, my point was. In the eyes of the company you have the same rights as a cadet who joined the same day. I don't feel special at all, bottom of the seniority list on my fleet and I'm fine with that.

When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.

[Jumbo2]

The debate as to wether time in company is the most applicable of possible criteria to award promotion has been done several times before on here. But it is BA's way and we do all know that.

FlipFlapFlop I still disagree with you views. Having joined with very similar experience as yourself on the SH fleet I'm a big supporter of the seniority system and strongly disagree with your views; That because you have thousands of hours and been flying for 10 years you are entitled to a higher seniority then the pilot who joined a day or a year before you.

The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody. For example there is no such thing as DEC because it's cheaper for the company then to upgrade a FO (something my previous employer loved to do even though they kept telling the troops they rather upgrade from within). Also partly because of the seniority system it doesn't matter that people who joined after a person get offered a direct LH position. As soon as the more senior person gets LH they will have more roster satisfaction.

I appreciate everybody is different but also if you think a quick command in BA is going to give you a massive pay rise you are in for a surprise. A FO with high fleet seniority and therefor high credit efficient triplines is probably only around 500 pounds worse off then a junior skipper on blindlines with lots of TASS.

[Stocious]

Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!

I've just re-read the Yammer post in question and can see none of the sense of entitlement you seem to see. It's a polite and reasonable question, with not one use of the word 'when' or any other presumptive language.

The early FPPs started in late 2013 and despite being pretty work-shy and a number of intakes behind them, I'm only a couple of hundred hours short of the OM A requirements at present, let alone by the time I'd start a course. Not that I'm bidding for one. I can imagine some of the keener ones have the hours required.

Either way, I suspect the point is moot this year.

[Saab0409]

All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?

[PressTheTit]

I don't want to give false hope but having mulled over this, I think there was good reason for an overly pessimistic outlook.

After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.

All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.

[akindofmagic]

The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody.

The seniority system also artificially restricts effective free movement between companies, and depresses terms and conditions. It is an anachronistic system, and the fact that it's not used in any other profession speaks volumes.

[no sponsor]

An awful lot of Captains I fly with on the 744 are going to retire in the not too distant future. You only have to look in iBid and search the RETs to see the numbers which are steadily leaving. Many choose only to give the bare minimum notice. I'd be very surprised if there is no recruitment in the short term. This is just my observation. I've given up on Yammer!

[4468]

Saab
All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?

What you seem to be 'missing' is something already contained in your list. The "different rostering system" is JSS. This will ensure that all pilots meet their CAP commitment every month. Currently many Blind Line Holders only manage that with the use of (often useless!) Time Assignable.

Ergo, fewer pilots required by BA to cover the same amount of work!

Because we don't want to digress, we won't bother explaining where the trips, currently unavailable to junior BLHs will come from!:rolleyes:

[RexBanner]

4468, you're probably right in as much as potentially fewer pilots to cover the work. But that, in my opinion, still won't mitigate all the other factors. There's going to be more than just the 65, but I suspect they're going to be white tail cadets, then DEP will cover any unforeseen holes after the flying programme/bid results are known (if any).

[bex88]

640hrs in a year on blind lines........20% less than most trip line holders.

[MaverickPrime]

This is one of my favourite threads on pprune, but I've never posted until now.

May I be so bold as to ask what a full-time, LH, TRE, with say 25 years senerority could expect to earn at BA?

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

This is not a shot at guys on this thread in their mid 30s+ with kids and mortgages. I understand you can not hang around waiting for T&Cs to improve when you are in that stage of your life.

So, in light of my intial question, surely BA is still a company to aim for if you are my age?

[VJW]

FO or Captain? :)

[Snapper5]

What's your age ?
With the rise of low cost LH I'm sure BA will have to make more cost cuts too "streamline" its operations
Pp24-pp34 ?

[Enzo999]

This is one of my favourite threads on pprune, but I've never posted until now.

May I be so bold as to ask what a full-time, LH, TRE, with say 25 years senerority could expect to earn at BA?

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

This is not a shot at guys on this thread in their mid 30s+ with kids and mortgages. I understand you can not hang around waiting for T&Cs to improve when you are in that stage of your life.

So, in light of my intial question, surely BA is still a company to aim for if you are my age?

Captain TRE approx 130k plus variable pay on PP34 or £150k on PP24. 25 years is a long time though a lot of people will be retiring before reaching that level of seniority. Alternatively you can go to Easy and earn that much after 3 to 4! No one comes to BA for the money any more.

[applecrumble]

So.... it will be interesting to see if any DEP's actually get taken on. After all that hard work to get in and then to be mucked around isn't a good feeling at all!

[RexBanner]

What's your age ?
With the rise of low cost LH I'm sure BA will have to make more cost cuts too "streamline" its operations
Pp24-pp34 ?

Long Haul low cost isn't viable in the long run. If it were then O'Leary would have already done it. And don't tell me he hasn't costed it.

[JPJP]

Cadet programmes have been on for yonks and as far as I'm aware there is no correlation between them and aircraft crashing ...

Air France 447 etc. Both of the pilots at the controls were Air France cadets. I could go on, but I won't bore anyone with the obvious.

we don't want FAA 1500hr madness in Europe either so things are fine as they are.

I can see why your self interest would lead you to that conclusion. However; the highest paying airline jobs in the world* are in the U.S. The average F.O. yearly income at a large low cost carrier (737) is higher than a LH Captain at British Airways (£160K per annum). That doesn't include the retirement paid by the company. The minimum hiring requirement for a F.O. is 1000 hours of turbine command. As another poster mentioned, the regional airlines are starting F.O. on £45K. The company pays for a pilots training and type rating.

Given the news that well qualified DEP at BA have just received, and the lack of rest/fatigue management rules, I'm surprised to hear a pilot say that "things are fine as they are" in Europe.

* I haven't included CA positions in China, since it's not relevant.

[akindofmagic]

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

The problem with this argument is pretty obvious really. I became a captain when I was 30. Running my take home pay backwards through a UK salary calculator shows that I would have to earn well over £200k a year to have the same net pay in the UK, and I work part time. Granted, I live in an expensive part of the world, but not appreciably more so than London.

I'm sure there are BA captains who earn more than me, but they'll have been in the company a long time, and almost certainly have training and/or management responsibilities (or do a hell of a lot of overtime!). The power of a (relatively) high salary when you're (relatively) young is in compounding (the same reason why sticking money in a pension is a good idea at the earliest opportunity). Financially it simply wouldn't make sense for someone like me to make the move; yes, I'd probably earn more for the last few years of my career, but I've got around two decades a of earning more. All assuming Ts & Cs remain static of course!

As others have eluded to, going to BA certainly wouldn't be a decision based on finances for many. This is all to say nothing of the other reasons to make the switch.

[MaverickPrime]

I think I'm wrong in my assumptions that BA is still a career airline, at least in some regards. The figures ENZO provided in his last post were a bit surprising to be honest.

[JulietSierra6]

Maverick,

I'll start by saying as many others have, money shouldn't be the driving factor for choosing this career.
However I think enzo was slightly conservative. If I'm looking at it correctly I'd say a 25 year LH trainer is on circa 164k basic plus 20k training plus flight/duty pay (pp24) & 140k basic, 20k training, again plus flight/duty pay (pp34).

Obviously it'll take a long time to get there but you asked!

[hunterboy]

Not a lot in the great scheme of things, especially when paying income taxes, AA exceedence taxes and the costs involved in coming to work in the South East.

[JulietSierra6]

Whether one considers it 'a lot' or not is subjective, I was just trying to provide accurate figures.

[hunterboy]

I can appreciate that JS...just trying to add to the debate. BA has fallen behind in the pilot pay over the last 20 years or so. We work pretty hard for not much money in the great scheme of things. Sadly, mostly given away by ourselves and our reps. But that is a whole new thread. :)

[polepilot]

The Assistant Pilot Recruitment Manager mentioned in the last email to those in the pool was at CTC last weekend (L3 sorry) which could confirm many of the rumours on here...............

[JulietSierra6]

Hunter boy... Agreed! :ok:

[thetimesreader84]

Has anyone contacted BA to ask about the "white tail" rumour? They were pretty quick to stamp on the FlyBe -> BA 777 rumour a few months ago, their silence on this says a lot I think...

And on the subject of contacting BA HR, has anyone filled out the survey regarding their "Candidate Experience"? :E

[Airbus38]

We work pretty hard for not much money in the great scheme of things.

Hunterboy, I'm not having a dig at you as I'm sure I've skewed your comment slightly out of context but to be fair, we're not exactly on the breadline working our fingers to the bone. I suppose it's all a case of perspective. How great is the great scheme of things? Everyone else I know who earns comparable money spends most of their waking hours tied to the job, stress levels through the roof and never really having a 'day off'. Year 1 DEPs in BA are in the top 7% of earners in the country even if they do the bare minimum, top 5% if they do a couple of days' overtime every other month. Captains with 20 years' service are top 2-3%. The phone doesn't ring on days-off, and from a personal perspective I walk away from an aeroplane and don't even think about work until I turn up for my next shift.

I speak to people from outside aviation and the effort/reward ratio is staggering. Seriously, go out and see what jobs attract a STARTING salary right at the bottom of the stack of £56,500 plus over £10,000 in extras. Also see whether those jobs have a guaranteed increase every year for the rest of your career, and then more often than not an annual pay rise on top of that. Middle or Far East pay it may not be (nor even necessarily LCC I concede) but it's a damn comfortable existence that I don't see people walking away from in their droves.

[4468]

Also see whether those jobs have a guaranteed increase every year for the rest of your career.
Currently promised. Not "guaranteed"!

Big difference!

[hunterboy]

airbus38 Thanks for your comments. It's great to get a different perspective on things .
My profile probably shows I live abroad now and I guess my experiences and expectations have changed my opinions. It does seem that other EU flag carriers and our US competitors are still doing pretty well, for a lot less work. A problem I see with the UK is a serf mentality and a system that has been pretty well designed to milk the last drop of tax out you.
Much of this isn't the employers fault, of course, however, if I was a younger, more thrusting pilot, I'd be exploring options outside of the UK like a flash. It's a big world out there, full of opportunities for the talented and enthusiastic.
I'd certainly view being an airline pilot nowadays as a stepping stone to something better. It isn't a sustainable career for a 20 something starting out in the job.
I foresee many changes for BA flight crew. I'd suggest reading the Emirates threads as it will all be coming to an airline near you in the near future I suspect.

[A340Yumyum]

Has anyone contacted BA to ask about the "white tail" rumour?

It's not a rumour.

[Buter]

Willing to pay for a type rating and take a reduced salary to join BA?

Tell you what - I'll auction off my airside pass and the idiot's guide to the 380*.

Pay me 30k up front and half my salary for the next 6 years and you'll be living the dream.

(Sorry Wiggy, et al... the very thought of paying for a type or voluntarily reducing a salary in our company is shocking)


*clearly not a serious offer

[Hotel Mode]

I've already started a crowd funder on the fleet Buter :)

Its going great.

[Buter]

That's why I love y'all!

Must wind up the rest of the company to know that we're now the best fleet to be on and it's a closed shop!

My sincere best wishes to all those in the hold pool.

[Stocious]

I'd certainly view being an airline pilot nowadays as a stepping stone to something better.

Curious as to what you consider better?

[hunterboy]

Anything with a better balance of risk v reward v health. That will depend on your personal circumstances.

[bex88]

Euro millions fleet is probably better but I don't see much else. "A stepping stone" to what? I don't feel particularly qualified to do much else.

[zzz]

Just to correct Enzo's figures, basic pay point 24(old scale)/34 (new scale) long haul skippers pay is £164k. Variables would amount to about another £20k pa. A TRE earns an additional 18% on basic. So something in excess of £200k with no overtime for a full timer TRE.

[CXKA]

There's a very good reason they have to offer start salaries that high in Qatar!

[Snapper5]

I'm sure that kind of salary would be on pp34 , which most would never see .
Also I'm very sure that BAs T&Cs will change again during the next 5 years and certainly in the next 34 !!!!

[hunterboy]

I reckon you'd be lucky to take just over 1/2 of that 200K home. Subtract the housing and commuting costs and see what you're left with. Then decide if it suits you. It works for some pilots, and not others. Great thing, this free world we live in. :)

[zzz]

If it really is the starting salary at Qatar, then go for it, you're welcome to it.
It's the same salary as pp34. Anyone who currently joins under the age of 31 (and most do) can achieve it. Whether it is the same salary scale in 30 years time is purely subjective.
How it is taxed is at the behest of the government, not BA.

It's great to have choices.

[sudden twang]

Aiming High
Got facts to back up a starting pay of £200k or was that a wind up.
There are plenty of easy LH commutes where you don't pay tax or v little.
If Jeremy had got in they'd have needed the 380 on the LIS. 😎

[Enzo999]

Ok. All Figures are in QAR but you paid in USD.
Base Pay 22575
Housing 13000
Utilities 300
Transport 1500
Flight Pay based on 70hrs 7280
Mobile 33
Total 44688
$12341 a month
Ok if you use there accommodation take 13000 gives 31688 or $8751.
So you would be approx £9400 or £6725 a month. Ok I admit I am using my situation in the figures in the fact I live in UK and wouldn't live in a tax haven and commute to the UK. To earn £9400 a month paying UK tax I would have to be on nearly £200k a year.
People will now say high living costs in Middle East etc etc horrible life but honestly 5 years and you can make a lot of money. I know guys who have done it and guys who are doing it.

There are several issue with the pay at Qatar (and I talk from experience having spent 3.5 years there). Firstly the housing allowance you will never see they will put you in company accommodation and only pay the allowance if the choose to or need to, if you rent privately 13,000 is not enough so you will be loosing even more of your pay. I have long argued that this is dead money and people have rightly pointed out that if you are considering a like for like comparison then you need to consider UK housing costs. My mortgage costs me £1500 a month here or £18000 a year (far less than to rent a small apartment in Qatar), the difference being my house makes far more than that annually in appreciation, so in effect my house is an investment that does not exist in Qatar (remember non nationals are not allowed to buy property in Qatar)

So forget the housing and you are left with 8700 dollars a month which under current exchange rates is a lot of money, but they are at historic lows! A figure closer to 1.5 or 1.6 dollars to the pound are far more representative of the past decade. At those levels it brings your take home closer to £5000 a month, which was about what I was making. Now 5k a month is only slightly more than most BA FOs are making and the difference in living conditions are beyond comparison. To put it nicely Qatar is a boiling hot hell hole full of desperate and greedy individuals, it is an incredibly unpleasant place to live and 6k a month is not even close to a worth while amount.

The head line figures look very appealing but dig a little deeper and remove post Brexit exchange rates and actually things are not so great.

[anson harris]

For us we just don't see a good future in the UK.
Good luck at Qatar - there are plenty of threads in the ME section, but this one is about BA.
As my Mother used to say "don't come crying to me". No whining when you get to Qatar, ok?!

[sudden twang]

Aiming High
Ok you meant £200k equivalent with a bit of reversed maths.
Fair enough best of luck I've only spent an hour there.

[bazilbutler]

Countryside is nice to visit but I don't know how people live there.

haha. the exact same could be said for London!

[JaxofMarlow]

PS We don't live in central London we are zone 5, wouldn't want to live further out. Countryside is nice to visit but I don't know how people live there. We have shops and electricity now. :ok:

[JB007]

Running water in my village!

[CXKA]

Think of all that extra flight pay at Qatar as you have to fly round the ME region just to get in and out ;-)

[The African Dude]

As my Mother used to say "don't come crying to me". No whining when you get to Qatar, ok?!

Maybe your mother should have taught you to come across as a bit less of a :mad: ? This chap/chap-ess is discussing the pros and cons of BA Direct Entry from their background and experience. And in the vacuum of new developments in the recruitment department, only punctuated by meager speculation here, I can't see it being a bad thing. Meanwhile, feel free to add some useful info of your own instead of using "good luck" as a placeholder for some other less pleasant sentiment.

[Ea300]

Anyone heard anymore about internal bids?

[wiggy]

The window for the internal bidding process only closed a couple of weeks back, the collated bids are available to those in house so they can make sure their preferences have been correctly recorded.. Once that's been done (end of this month) it will then be down to the long suffering/hard working lady who organisies all this to crunch the numbers, no doubt after umpteen inputs from network planning, etc

Last time I looked the results weren't due to be published until November...sorry if that wasn't the timescale you were hoping for.

[anson harris]

feel free to add some useful info of your own instead of using "good luck" as a placeholder for some other less pleasant sentiment.
You can feel free to be less pessimistic about what people mean when expressing sentiments on an online forum. FWIW, I actually meant it... But then again, this is PPRuNE, perhaps I should add "for real" after I say anything nice. The point I am making is that PPRuNE is full of people who seek advice/validation/whatever about going to the ME. They never listen (I am guilty as charged) and are invariably back to complain about it. I would say that was something useful to consider.

[Mizar]

Anyone in the pool has recevid details for this online presentation we should be given soon...

[Ea300]

Nope nothing yet

[applecrumble]

I get the feeling we aren't at the top of the priorities list

[polepilot]

Are we on any list?!

[applecrumble]

The one in the bin?

[FACoff]

Has anyone managed to ascertain what our actual time in the pool is now? I.e - the original year + 6 months + extra year = 2.5 years?

[VJW]

I emailed that question the day we got the email with no reply.

[CXKA]

I wonder how many in the hold pool will just see this as a non starter now and either look at other airlines or stay for upgrades at current one.

[VinRouge]

No DEP for the longhaul side or internal moves only?

[FoxChaRomeo]

So less chance of BA recruiting direct entry next year.

https://www.l3cts.com/news/2017/l3-airline-academy-offers-british-airways-career-upgrade-.html

Clearly why they are forecasting no DEP recruitment next year. Cadets are cheaper - they come without experience!

The bottleneck will be the training department, it may get to a point where they can't cope with getting 150+ newbies onto the line, which is where rated guys & gals near the top of the pool list may be in luck.

I think things are looking bleak for our non-rated friends though...

[fruitbat]

Things change very quickly at BA. The latest flying programme snapshot will be published at the end of September. Already 2018 is being talked of as a "busy time" for pilot recruitment, so I would be cautiously optimistic. Good luck all...

[thetimesreader84]

"A busy time for recruitment..,"

Yep, they've got 150-odd fATPL cadets to administer.

[wiggy]

There are so many unknowns at the moment I'm not sure there is any way anybody can offer meaningful predictions...

Yes there's the fleet plan coming up, but there's also the result of the internal move bid, and yes there are a significant number of FPPs waiting in the wings...

On one extreme if in November we find out all the existing Airbus pilots have opted to remain on the short haul fleet then the company might well be visiting the hold pool to find experienced pilots to fill long haul positions.....odds on that extreme event happening is, I suspect , between zero and nil....

If OTOH the long haul slots can be filled by internal movement and there is training capacity to backfill those short haul vacancies with the FPPs then many hold poolers are going to be dissapointed because the company will use the FPPs for the reasons previously mentioned.

The picture might be clearer after the results of the internal bid are known, which AFAIK is not until November...

All I can say is good luck.

[bex88]

Busy year for recruitment, no DEP next year, lots of DEP next year, FPP only, SSP cadets, huge amounts of training next year for LH expansion, not enough SH pilots who are unfrozen to fill LH roles, commands gone senior on SH, commands gone junior on SH, A350 not coming, A350s are coming.......777X. I think I have heard all of that in the last few weeks. I don't think anyone knows really and those that do really don't share the information with people in dark corners of the crew room........saying that dark corners of the crew room are full of surprises 😎

[bad bear]

Its impossible to predict anything in aviation, just be ready to take advantage of any opportunities that interest you. In my time I've seen people predict zero recruitment only to have the busiest year ever or commands are 20 years away then suddenly pilots with 2 years in the airline are on command courses. It could happen that the pilots over 55 suddenly decide to retire and enjoy their health and wealth, or a Korean war could end recruitment for years and throw everything in to chaos.

[bex88]

Here you go

our plan is to carry a small surplus into 2018 predominantly to ease the transition to JSS. Given the complexities of our agreements and the long timescales for pilot recruitment, after a hiatus in recruitment over the summer period, we are looking forward to welcoming the final tranche of FPP graduates over the next few months before recommending external recruitment in earnest in the New Year. We have enjoyed a recuperative year in 2017 and, though we will not complete the detailed work on our 2018 financial plan until October, we can be confident that the next 12 months will be a busy time both within the operation and for pilot recruitment.

[thetimesreader84]

Does "external recruitment" mean / include the CTC / OAA cadets (not FPP) that they are sourcing, or do they mean DEP?

[wiggy]

Just a health warning about that statement bex: about two months back it's author attended a SEP forum and told the assembled bunch of flight crew about forthcoming plans, mix of DEPs and FPPs he expected to see, and roughly when. Two weeks later the plan had all changed, and since I had paraphrased the SEP forum comments here I was left a tad red faced.

I don't doubt the author is telling it as he sees it today but whilst he is very very highly placed in the Flight Ops food chain we know commercial are well capable of springing surprises. Whilst the statement is better than an information vacuum I'd still add a note of caution until we see in print both the results of the Fleet plan and then Cassandra (internal bid process ) results.

[bex88]

Wise words as always Wiggy.

[wiggy]

Wise words as always Wiggy.

Oh I dunno bex, in a month or so it's quite possible we will discover I've been talking out of my **** again.....

It would be nice to give the swimmer some definite good news.....

Anyhow, back to the annual quiz..:sad:

[Count von Altibar]

I have a feeling that once JSS is in place we won't need as many pilots as before, FPP or DE.

[Doppio]

...Or on the other hand, maybe BA will; when most of the senior crystallized pension guys leave in disgust over not being able to tailor their life anymore in the way they were used to with bidline.

[wiggy]

Some might go but TBH I think the amount of tailoring currently available simply through "basic" bidline and picking lines at Stage one and juicy trips at Stage two is overstated, trip swapping was a better weapon. Yes the Page one pilots can almost tailor things but below that vaunted position you quickly run into compromise territory.

Anyhow I see debate has kicked off again elsewhere as to what will actually happen when JSS is introduced. Some suspect the senior guys will "suffer", others think with JSS all the carp will drop through to the junior rosters. I think we will only which way things are going to go when we see JSS and the effect of it's much anticipated inhibitors in action.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

It may be a way off yet anyway. The word on the street is that JSS is delayed at least 6 months with the development budget being heavily scrutinised by the Waterworld Accountants.

Who knows. :hmm:

[bex88]

dropping down to the bottom? No change there then.

More to the point you can't say BA does not have a sense of humour. Every year it's the same......50 questions on the tech quiz and the last one or two are always about fatigue

[Snapper5]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41193122

Is this true for flight deck as well ?

[wiggy]

Fixed the link for you:

BA seeks to close main pension scheme - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41193122)

The short answer to your question is "some are".

There are quite a few who joined a while back who are in NAPs, are still contributing and expecting to draw benefits from the scheme. However NAPS hasn't been available to new joiners for quite a few years.....they are on BARP or some iteration thereof.

The repercussions of this could be interesting to say the least. Could be a defining moment for BALPA at BA.

[Enzo999]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41193122

Is this true for flight deck as well ?

It sure is. Considering most of the BALPA reps will be affected I am sure they will fight tooth and nail to minimise any loss to themselves. They are already floating the idea of "improving" the DC scheme, funnily enough over the last 15 years they have never considered fighting for an improved DC scheme untill now, go figure!

[pomme pilot]

Can anyone give an enlightened guess to what this might mean for the hold poolers? At the moment my guess is (and I hope that I am wrong)
Those in NAPs loosing, for some, a significant sum in retirement. Especially SFO's that were planning their pension on a capt final salary, but now that is locked in at FO rates.
A rush for short haul commands from said FO's to increase pensionable pay to try and recoup losses.
A distinct lack of interest in future part time contracts, again to try and maintain as high as possible pensionable pay to recoup losses, from all in NAPS.
Less early retirements.
All leading to less recruitment in the coming years, and times to command significantly expanded.

Am I missing something? Or should I start seriously looking elsewhere. 12+ years for short haul command IF i get a call for 2018 isn't boding well based on my advancing age. :{

[3Greens]

It sure is. Considering most of the BALPA reps will be affected I am sure they will fight tooth and nail to minimise any loss to themselves. They are already floating the idea of "improving" the DC scheme, funnily enough over the last 15 years they have never considered fighting for an improved DC scheme untill now, go figure!

Apart from increasing the pensionable pay from 80%to 95 % of pay FOR All, back in 2006. Perhaps distracted by your continual moaning on here about life in BA, you conveniently forgot that Enzo.?

[Enzo999]

What heros, increasing something from 80% to 95% that should have been 100% to begin with, and that was 11 years ago. What have they done since other than reducing pay and conditions for all new joiners? What you call moaning is unfortunately the truth as I see it, you are of course welcome to disagree but this is an open forum and people are entilited to voice their opinions no matter how negative.

[3Greens]

Yes, but this is also an anonymous forum, and whilst you are entitled to an opinion; why not pop over to the BALPA forum and put your moaning into a more constructive form, where your name and status isn't hidden behind the keyboard. Or is it just easier to snipe from the sidelines without your opinions being "challenged" ?

[Enzo999]

I am more than happy to be "challenged" by anyone on my opinions. In fact I gave BALPA a chance to challenge me just last month when I wrote to them rescinding my 17 year old membership whilst highlighting all the reasons for such a decision. Needless to say their response was not overly challenging, as such my access to said forum is limited (a great loss to my life I am sure).

I am not quite sure I follow your logic regarding the anonymous nature of this forum, is an opinion only valid if it's from an identifiable source? I don't believe any of my comments, feelings or opinions are anything to be ashamed or embarrassed by and I would freely express such views to anyone in person.

Just to be clear not all my posts are negative regarding BA, there are some good points about working there and I have highlighted them as well. But for some people trying to make difficult decisions regarding a possible future career at BA my experiences might well be considered "constructive", if not they are welcome to ignore them.

[thetimesreader84]

I've been having a bit of trouble with my emails - inbound emails either being moved straight to junk (despite being from recognised sources) or not delivered at all. While I'm pretty sure someone would have mentioned it on here, I don't suppose there's been any notice of this web - chat session happening any time soon?

Cheers.

[PressTheTit]

Just after Corbyn becomes PM

[applecrumble]

My guess is that they are waiting for bid results so they then know exactly what they are up against in terms of manpower?

[Mizar]

When should these bid results be out again?

[applecrumble]

Usually start of Oct if i'm not mistaken.