BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[VJW]

Where did you hear that?

[Snapper5]

I have never really read this thread , whilst flicking through I found this post
A very interesting honest opinion on BA , obviously not the golden handshake anymore

[RexBanner]

I'd like to take issue with a couple of points here

1) You'll fly 800hrs+ on SH. Completely incorrect as far as my experience goes. 600 hours in the last twelve calendar months. Others I speak to have averaged around 700*

2) Spending over three and a half hours on a turnaround? Never done it, not once. The maximum I've had is maybe an hour to an hour and a half. Maybe there are duties with such a turnaround hidden somewhere but they're absolutely not frequent.

3) The relationship with cabin crew. Again I found this to be a complete over exaggeration, yes there are some pissed off guys and gals but the amount of times they cause you a problem is minimal. You don't get to form much of a relationship with them as they are always swapping aircraft at Heathrow but that's the nature of the beast, aside from that I've noticed no real difference in the relationship between Flightdeck and cabin crew to the other large airlines I've worked for. There is some genuine banter to be had out there on the line, be in no doubt.

4) My sample size is admittedly limited (as usually I'm on public transport to the local hotels but have done a few reserve periods now with a hire car in the car park) but, again, not once have I had to wait 45 minutes. I think the longest wait has been 5-10 minutes. Yes with some late finishes too.

I've said it before but there are some gross over exaggerations on pprune. It seems to be think of the worst case scenario you can imagine (which I admit sometimes does occur) and make out like it is something that happens all the time (it doesn't). You really have to take the postings on here with a large grain of salt. Amigo South's post was written almost a year before I joined and being honest, I can't vouch for what he's said as regards day to day life here. There are some grains of truth in there but if you're someone who sweats the small stuff and spends their life being overwhelmingly negative then no doubt that post will chime with you. If you take it as it comes you'll see that the things mentioned happen infrequently enough for you not to be bothered by them.

I'm sat writing this on eight straight days off by the way. It's not leave and it's not a DFW. Yes I've done a couple of 6 on 2 off 6 ons in the past, but you take the rough with the smooth and - more importantly - try getting eight days off at Ryanair or easyJet as part of your normal pattern. I've got another seven day block of days off next month too, again it's not holiday. This isn't a willy waving contest either, it's just to demonstrate and highlight the level of roster control you can get at BA (yes even on short-haul and even when you're 80% away from the top of the list).

*Flight time as a measure of workload in BA is notoriously inaccurate.

[FACoff]

Rumour (and it's purely that) that I heard was that some people were told they are no longer in the pool. Can anyone confirm that or otherwise?

This could have been the very last people to gain entry to the pool, essentially won't be required?

Surely that's not true?

Any idea when he/she joined (and was supposedly dismissed from) the pool?

Frankly I can't think of a scenario where this would make any sense for BA. Even if the swimmers at the back really are unlikely to be needed, surely better to keep them in the pool anyway in case requirements change (which as we know, they frequently do).

As recruitment have said to me themselves, they've spent a lot of time and money getting us through assessment, so scrapping us (at any stage) does no-one any favours.

[applecrumble]

Any idea when he/she joined (and was supposedly dismissed from) the pool?

Frankly I can't think of a scenario where this would make any sense for BA. Even if the swimmers at the back really are unlikely to be needed, surely better to keep them in the pool anyway in case requirements change (which as we know, they frequently do).

As recruitment have said to me themselves, they've spent a lot of time and money getting us through assessment, so scrapping us (at any stage) does no-one any favours.

I agree, it makes no sense to me either. Probs BS, or lost in translation.

[wiggy]

1) You'll fly 800hrs+ on SH. Completely incorrect as far as my experience goes. 600 hours in the last twelve calendar months. Others I speak to have averaged around 700*

..and OTOH on Longhaul we've got more than a few folks ringing the 900 hour bell.

Problem is Rex is trying square what you've experienced with the fact on another forum some folk are regularly pushing how awful SH rosters and workload is under EASA rules. Certainly at the moment isn't it also fair to say that one's position on the seniority list can make a tremendous difference to your perceptions of BA? I also know there are ways of being say 80% off the top low hours but there's often a trade off involved that some people possibly wouldn't want to entertain (e.g the unpredictability of being time assignable as a blind line holder or just the total unpredictability of reserve).

I do happen to know from conversation there are still some very unhappy SH (and LH) bunnies out there, so maybe on average workload is somewhere between yours and what amigo south wrote a while back

That aside I do agree with a lot of your other points, and frame of mind and expectation comes into it.

[RexBanner]

Thing is Wiggy I just don't recognise this whole argument that shorthaul is awful. Yes there are bits that leave a bit to be desired but nowhere nowadays is a utopia. I'm wondering how much is being written by people who've lost touch with reality. We get plenty of leave compared to other places so if you get creative, virtually every other month you can have a nice block of time off.

If you want to measure SH against LH and take the point of view that because SH isn't as good as LH then that makes SH awful then as far as I'm concerned that's just a state of mind. If you're like me and you're staring down the barrel of another four years of it, then you begin to see the positives and there are quite a few. You just never hear of them on here because that's not the agenda on display. I've worked for a few airlines now and I can categorically say that this is the best overall. You can get some significant time off but that might mean you work harder on your days on duty. I don't see a problem with that.

(Maybe part of my way of thinking is that I've seen the worst this industry has to offer, which is freezing your arse off out in the arse end of Europe flying with grizzled CRM free captains on multiple 12hr+ four sector days off a 05:00AM report on repeat with no coffee provided, a single mouldy sandwich for crewfood and being paid peanuts.)

[Tay Cough]

Towards the top of the list and if you can avoid repeated earlies, shorthaul isn't too bad. Maximum credit coupled with minimum days at work on lates only is how to bid. However, you need to be towards the top of the list to assure that.

The change to EASA scheduling means there are some nasty early rotations out there. I think this particular gem has gone now but from an early report, OSL-LHR-KEF-LHR anyone? Legal perhaps but not sensible through the disaster area that is LHR with its holding and waiting for parking/catering/tugs/you-name-it. I have heard of delights of Corfu and back followed by a European nightstop too so they're still out there.

Lates were largely untouched as the changes from CAA to EASA scheduling were pretty minimal for them.

[wiggy]

I think that's all fair comment Rex..

I think currently there is a lot of angst about how the company are picking off items of T&Cs and quite where T&Cs will be in 5-10 years time, which is perhaps not helping the general frame of mind of many in the current workforce.

I would certainly agree there are a few who seem to generate a lot of "negative waves"...and I have my concerns looking forward but yes, there are worse places to work.

[Jumbo2]

Well written RexBanner, as a fellow SH'er who joined from a different Northern UK airline. I fully agree with your writeup. I do more hours then yourself (around 800ish), but they are the result of a lot of high credit trips/days to maximise my days off.
If I have to compare my life with the other airline I used to work for before I joined. BA is a walk in the park, so much control about ones roster, the roster stability which is just amazing (0 roster changes since joining compared to 92% roster disruption a month (early to late or visa versa a day before the duty resulting in not being able to plan anything on a working day) at the previous when I worked there) and being treated like a professional instead of a cost.

But having said that I guess everybody is different. At my previous lot people living local to the bases thought it was the best job they could wish for, working hard in the summer but only doing standbys in the winter. I for one prefer the BA system were the work is distributed more evenly over the year, you do a block of 21 reserve/stby days a year and you control your own rooster which as you say rather often results in big blocks of off days (sometimes with the help of a PBW) on which you can explore the world with staff travel. At the same time you always get as Wiggy says, a (luckily only a very) few who seem to generate a lot of "negative waves" like Amigo South who aren't happy about things, however there is a reason they joined and to often the reason is they weren't happy about their previous airline either.

[Right Engine]

Gross generalisation of course, but the main grumbles seem to come from people who don't know what the rest of the world is like

I know that BA Short Haul is nothing like EJ or Ryanair.

I would take 5/4/5/3 right now at BA. But that would mean I'd be doing about 15 days less at work each year!

[wiggy]

At the risk of thread drift: I think people need to be a bit careful about completely dismissing the "moaners" at BA to much. We're seeing a increasing slide in T&Cs, and whilst no doubt BA is still better than some outfits it's a question of for how long?

BA management style has changed in the last few years, a recent event shows they are now seem willing to unilaterally impose changes on T&Cs, and a lot of the extras that made the package attractive are slowly being nibbled away at.

So whilst I would say don't let the grumblers wear you down their are some (IMHO) valid gripes out there and the danger of insisting in seeing BA through rose tinted glasses now is that in 10-15 years times you could just end working at a bigger version of the company you just escaped from.

[Icanseeclearly]

I too am very happy as a shorthauler at BA, like others have said it has it's great points and some not so good ones, like Rex I don't recognise the points raised on the "cut and paisted" post above.

Wiggy raises some interesting points and I think he is right, unfortunately every business in every field is about trying to cut costs and they try and do that by reducing T&Cs it's a race to the bottom in every industry and who knows where it will end. I am by no means a socialist (far from it) but I do think that capitalism needs a bit of a reboot and the rights of workers should be the most important factor, unfortunately I don't see it happening.

[basiljet]

Do any of you guys worry that with current world events this hold pool may never drain? It seems ambitious that with what is going on it's likely for expansion and a willingness for people to travel, seems one bad news story after another! Hopefully me being a pessimist but what are your thoughts?

[thetimesreader84]

I must admit I'm not as confident as I was even 3-4 weeks ago. I'm bus rated, but amongst the last into the pool.

The big "red flags" for me are the FPP grads having their A320 courses put back to September and into 2018. That's going to take a big dent out of the vacancies for 2018, both rated and non. That, and the ongoing cost cutting going on under Cruz, I think they are going to sweat the assets (pilots) as much as they can, with little comeback. Pilots aren't going to leave, and other IAG companies can take the edge off any strike action.

Some reassurance from BA would be nice over the next few weeks. I can only imagine how the non rated swimmers approaching 18 months must be feeling.

[Ea300]

FPP only fills spaces in shorthaul. There is still LH aircraft arriving in 2018. Just stay positive about it however I would also recommend getting on with your current career. male the most of that then you are covering both bases. 😊

[Jumbo2]

At the risk of thread drift: I think people need to be a bit careful about completely dismissing the "moaners" at BA to much. We're seeing a increasing slide in T&Cs, and whilst no doubt BA is still better than some outfits it's a question of for how long?


I couldn't agree more, because of the sticking up for our terms and conditions, and the mature attitude of BALPA (compared to some foreign pilot unions) it's still one of the (if not the) best (and very/most successful) airline to work for in the U.K.

[Snapper5]

I would say the best has to be Thomson , very successful , legacy T&Cs , regional base for LH , just floats along in the background .
Just a shame about the time for command which is understandable but also the not so good starting conditions

[McNugget]

That, and their atrocious record for job security at the whiff of economic trouble.

[Snapper5]

Really I didn't know they were like that ?
I heard that virgin was pretty bad for doing that deed

[The Mixmaster]

As with most operators I hear Thomson not as good a gig as it used to be due EASA FTL's. Personally I'd like to see more industrial pressure brought to bear on FTL regulation, rather than the usual depressed acceptance of "that's just the way it is". Some of the new rule sets under EASA are not safe.

[Snapper5]

I guess the issue is that there will always be a new pilot somewhere willing to bust there a@@ on a rubbish pay to fly contract , as long as those people continue to accept poor T&Cs then other airlines just can't compete

[The Mixmaster]

When management release a statement which affects your t's and c's, replace "due to our competitors" with "due to corporate greed".:ok:

[wiggy]

I take the point on expansion but there's still sustainability to cover retirements and perhaps part time contracts. We're certainly due an update that's for sure!

It could be a while, whilst they'll have a handle on retirements ( roughly), the rearrangement of the work patterns for existing part timers has only just begun, with bid closure for those involved in May. Only then will follow the handling the new (internal) bidders for PT, my guess is only after seeing demand for that will they look at external requirements ...I short I think it will be a while before any concrete news.

[4468]

Ea300
FPP only fills spaces in shorthaul. There is still LH aircraft arriving in 2018.
Kind of true.. But the impication that FPPs cover SH vacancies, leaving LH vacancies for new entrants is completely wrong.

BA have never, to my knowledge, recruited onto LH unless they have insufficient unfrozen internal bidders. FPPs joining at the bottom, simply enable other incumbents to move up the food chain.

So the monster feeds, and the excrement leaves at the top!😄

Oh, and anyone thinking they'll only do one month of Reserve per year, better hope they don't join on LH!🙄

[wiggy]

As 4468 has said and as far as I'm aware there's no guarantee that BA will offer DEPs Longhaul slots. Recruitment has slowed down from the frenzy of twelve months or so ago, internal transfers to Longhaul usually trump external "bids " so unless BA can show they are restricted to recruiting direct to LH by a lack of training capacity, or there's a lack of unfrozen internal bidders, the vacancies are going to be entirely/almost entirely on Shorthaul.

[VJW]

With that in mind, having applied long haul, being a SH captain already for LoCo and having said I'd accept a SH offer from BA; how likely is it to get LGW as a base? LHR is a bit of a drive. For LH that drive would be fine 5 times a month, but for SH it'd be tougher to leave my 45 min drive LHS position I'm currently in.

[Snapper5]

A very brave move willing to give up a command for BA SH ?
I guess everyone has there individual situations

[Superpilot]

Nothing worse than gaining command at 30-35 with the prospect of doing 4 sectors 4 or 5 days in a row for the rest of your life.

[Snapper5]

Do LH Bullets instead ,
I would choose command and part time in SH

[bex88]

I think you would get Gatwick easily enough. 12 captains were moved for the summer from LHR because LGW were short.

The grass is not greener though. Yes three sectors not four and yes we night stop but Heathrow is like swimming against the tide at times. Even if you got command quickly you would still have taken a big pay cut from easy.

[Stocious]

With that in mind, having applied long haul, being a SH captain already for LoCo and having said I'd accept a SH offer from BA; how likely is it to get LGW as a base? LHR is a bit of a drive. For LH that drive would be fine 5 times a month, but for SH it'd be tougher to leave my 45 min drive LHS position I'm currently in.

If you bid for it, you'll likely get it fairly promptly. Not many people want to come down to LGW but there are lots of FOs at LGW who want to go up to LHR (more fool them).

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Some of the new rule sets under EASA are not safe
Mix - come on then spill the beans which rules. Sister airlines for Thomson e.g. Belgium/Scandi/Germany have been working to EU FTL for ages and EASA is only a slight re-jig of this. Its not just a Brit thing is it............

[The Mixmaster]

Mr. Angry - 2 man long haul ops allow for 13 hour FDP and 11 hours back of the clock on return leg. Until you actually operate a sector like this through the night, having had min rest downroute, you can't appreciate how unsafe it is. You will say show me the smoking hole then. My opinion is, sadly, it's only a matter of time.

[anson harris]

2 man long haul ops allow for 13 hour FDP and 11 hours back of the clock on return leg

Which trip are you referring to?

[The Mixmaster]

At the risk of thread drift, I was replying to Mr Angrys question about Thomson working patterns. I believe LGW-PHU is a 2 man of this duration.

[EF1S]

If you bid for it, you'll likely get it fairly promptly. Not many people want to come down to LGW but there are lots of FOs at LGW who want to go up to LHR (more fool them).

Unlikely. Gatwick command got to 3600 in the 2016 bid, 2017 back at 2300 and this coming bid the FPPs are eligible and eager.

I'm 3700-3900 and below a lot of guys keen for LHS at LGW.

[recall_checked]

At the risk of thread drift, I was replying to Mr Angrys question about Thomson working patterns. I believe LGW-PHU is a 2 man of this duration.

This trip is a 3 man job at TOM.

[The Mixmaster]

recall_checked. Not since EASA FTL's were introduced.

[sudden twang]

At the risk of thread drift, I was replying to Mr Angrys question about Thomson working patterns. I believe LGW-PHU is a 2 man of this duration.
Where is PHU?

[recall_checked]

Think he means Phuket (HKT). And TOM do use 3 pilots on this route, regardless if EASA says you only need 2.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Mix
2 man long haul ops allow for 13 hour FDP and 11 hours back of the clock on return leg.

Which depending on the time of day was what CAP371 allowed certainly 11hrs back of the clock without the factorisation of sectors which only CAP371 had since Flight Engineers went...
The allowable FDP in the afternoon under EASA is more restrictive than CAP371.
So it just boils down to the factorisation issue in pure FDP calcs and the fact under CAP you immediately came unacclimatised where EASA is a more practical gradual adaptation.
Don't get me wrong the trip you highlighted must be pretty tough but that's the limits your sister airlines have worked to for years n years (or near to)

There are plenty of postings with Thomson is the best gig in the UK so it cant all be that bad?

[The Mixmaster]

My apologies I meant HKT and apologies again for thread drift!

Recall_checked, from a current 767 pilot in TOM who operates the route "LGW - HKT is rostered as a 2 man trip."

Mr Angry from Purley you're telling a few fibs I'm afraid. CAP371 on return leg doesn't deal with time of day, it deals in acclimatised or unacclimatised. In an unacclimatised state (which my source tells me applies to this leg back from HKT), CAP371 certainly didn't allow 11 hours for long haul operations. CAP371 made you treat a sector over 7 hours as multi sector. For a flight the length of Thailand to U.K. You're looking at 9h45 as the 2 man limit in CAP371 compared to 11 hours under EASA. Don't let facts get in the way of a good story...nice try though :ok:

And to answer your point about Thomson not being all bad. That's true but all airlines are engaged in a race to the bottom to facilitate corporate greed masquerading as "competition". So it's all relative. My buddy in Thomson did a Cape Verde recently. No overnights there any more due EASA. 5:20 out, 5:40 back. Doesnt take a genius to work out that CAP371 is far less fatiguing than the rules we operate to under our European masters.

[overstress]

This thread has drifted a long way from BA DEP! :confused:

[The Mixmaster]

Yep sorry about that! To bring it back to BA, I'm delighted to hear from friends of mine on long haul there that they have sensible, BALPA negotiated FTL limits on 2 man long haul ops:ok:

[Snapper5]

I really do hope the long haul side of BA doesn't change to drastically in the coming years !

[Love_joy]

Coming full circle again and back to BA Recruitment; those of us in the hold pool are finding the silence deafening at the moment, since the last update in January.

Although the last update did explain nothing likely this year, does anyone happen to know when non FPP offers might start to be made again?

Is there any semblance of a plan yet for 2018?

[wiggy]

.... on long haul there that they have sensible, BALPA negotiated FTL limits on 2 man long haul ops:ok:

They do ..but I'd stand by from some (possibly robust) input from some short haul colleagues about how quickly things can change....

Love_joy

Last time I looked the 2018 plan for airframes etc was as before..."manpower" are about to wade through the rejigging of the existing part time pilots contracts and then will have their hands full with bids from those current full timers wanting to move onto a part time contract ..I suspect until that is done (which is going to take several months) you won't get much if anything in the way of a meaningful update....just MHO.

[RexBanner]

Hi Lovejoy I know it's frustrating and you can't do anything else but don't worry about it. The plan at the moment seems to change with the wind, at my management forum just under a month ago indications were that the FPP's were about to start and some form of external recruitment would reopen at the end of the summer. Now in the space of a couple of weeks, unpaid leave has been offered and I gather some FPP's have had their courses put back into early next year? (All rumour until it's confirmed). So as I said, what's fact now will be last week's plan very swiftly so who knows? I would definitely be surprised though if there is any significant direct entry long haul recruitment next year though as there are large numbers of people now unfrozen and for the coming few years. (Unless of course it really kicks off again and the company can use the training capacity excuse to bypass seniority).

[Cuillin Hills]

Coming full circle again and back to BA Recruitment; those of us in the hold pool are finding the silence deafening at the moment, since the last update in January.

Although the last update did explain nothing likely this year, does anyone happen to know when non FPP offers might start to be made again?

Is there any semblance of a plan yet for 2018?


Unfortunately, BA and other airlines have been doing this sort of thing for years.

I know many people who have passed BA selection but never actually joined due to changing operational requirements and a finite hold pool time.

Best of luck.

[Love_joy]

Thanks everyone.

If I'm honest I'm sitting pretty in my current seat, and reasonably happy where I am, so there is no urgency about it.

It's just the rest of life that's continuing to move along... I need to seriously consider where I am to place my family in the short & long term as we have other needs to address.

My own gut feeling is that we won't hear anything till Q4 this year, with courses to run Q1 & Q2 next year. I base this purely on here say, rumour and wishful thinking.

I've known colleagues to swim & expire up to 4 times before finally getting lucky.

Recruitment is brutal.

[Stocious]

Unlikely. Gatwick command got to 3600 in the 2016 bid, 2017 back at 2300 and this coming bid the FPPs are eligible and eager.

I'm 3700-3900 and below a lot of guys keen for LHS at LGW.

Well aware of those figures, but he wasn't talking about LHS. He was asking about initial postings after hold pool...

[EF1S]

Ahh yes, should probably RTFQ x 2!

[Jwscud]

With all the various rumours flying around, an email update is expected for those in the hold pool at some point in the next week or so.

[Love_joy]

Ah let's not get the truth get in the way of a good rumour :}

It would be appreciated by those of us quietly swimming, if only to keep the dream alive for now.

[4468]

And one of those current rumours is volountary redundancy for BA pilots!

Of course it could just be wishful thinking!

[applecrumble]

They really are getting ridiculous now.
My mate is at the bottom of the seniority and hasn't mentioned it haha

[Love_joy]

It won't be the bottom of the list they are targeting if true. And I don't believe for one second that it is. Growth on the horizon, upcoming retirements and part-time requests to start accepting. They will need bods.

[wiggy]

current rumours is volountary redundancy for BA pilots!

4468 is right, there's talk doing the rounds......

My mate is at the bottom of the seniority and hasn't mentioned it haha

Well haha or not the rumour is doing the rounds in the company, now where it started and whether it is credible is another matter, could be just rumour, could be management testing the water/flying a kite.

Personally I'd be suprised to see vouluntary redundancies being offered before the company has seen the demand for part time working under the revised arrangements.

Edit to add: Just seen elsewhere one of the Union reps saying it's almost certainly a rumour.

[Max Angle]

Just seen elsewhere one of the Union reps saying it's almost certainly a rumour. Hmm, in that case expect a memo in the next few days offering it.

[BugSpeed]

To All the Hold-Poolers,

Hang in there guys and stay strong; I know a round of expirations is imminent.

Frustration does not even come close to explaining it I know, but trust me, persevere with it. Re-apply if you need to, suck up the hold pool again (and again, and again...). Work out some way of steadying your nerve at each stage. If it is what you want, you will get there.

It is acknowledged as a ridiculous system from pretty much every department except HR, who appear to be the controlling element.

The reward does out weigh the pain, however, if an equally good job offer comes along in the meantime and you NEED to get out of where you are: take it. I would probably take a definite over a maybe. The BA process has a habit of opening up reasonably regularly; the others may not.

I have been where you guys are now (more than once). The hardest bit was not the hold pool; the hardest bit was during a re-application when mates who previously passed, failed. That was tough.

Good luck and really hope it all pans out.

[applecrumble]

What is the earliest someone is expiring? Isn't it October?

[Callsign Kilo]

Nothing new here - after 18 months, people sank in 2009. Recruitment opened again mid 2010.

After 18 months, people sank in 2013 (myself included). Recruitment opened again in late 2014. Those previous 'swimmers' were all 'fast-tracked,' however it was back to Day 1.

LC was a good guy about it however being a professional, wouldn't share his honest opinion on the matter (obviously). Candidates, pilot recruitment & flight operations have to deal with the psychometric profiling piff-paff being line fed to HR, who appear to have the final say. 'It's the way that it's always been done at BA' was the common chorus that I heard at the time. After 12 months swimming you were on the cusp of not being the same person that was assessed. After 18 months you were deserving of a straight jacket!!

The second time around, someone must have seriously screwed up the numbers because with less than 12 months of 'sinking' and the horizon looking extremely bleak for DEPs, recruitment went warp factor 10!

I genuinely hope no one needs to go through this again. However I expect it means little to the powers that be. BA can open DEP recruitment at any stage and have an influx of applications.

[The African Dude]

Has anybody just emailed Lucy for an update? Wasn't that what she said we should do when we saw her over sandwiches?

[basiljet]

I emailed but go no reply. Am just going to see what happens here but apply to everyone I can think of back in the UK. Someone has to be hiring soon hopefully.

[Doppio]

To clarify; BA is now offering Voluntary Unpaid Time Off in the Month of June for the B744. So not voluntary redundancy but just a few weeks extra unpaid leave in the summer for those that want it. Limited places available... Hope this helps.

[basiljet]

oh dear....

thanks for the update at least it gives some more clarity

[Saab0409]

What is the earliest someone is expiring? Isn't it October?

I am expiring end of October. Seeing as my sim buddy started his TR in February (he is 320 rated though) just before the slowdown, I'm guessing I'll be one of the first to drown. Still keeping my fingers crossed for a Jan/Feb 2018 start date.

[4468]

The ten year suspension of retirements, due to increased Compulsory Retirement Age, (CRA) ended n Oct 2016. I have no idea why any floodgate should open in 2017? It should already have started.

Lots of unpaid voluntary leave available apparently!

[wiggy]

I have no idea why any floodgate should open in 2017? It should already have started.

I suspect you know this but for those that don't I think what has happened is a significant number of the over 55s left ( voluntarily or forced due medicals etc) between the ages of 55-65, there wasn't the step change in the retirement rate last Autumn that some were expecting or even hoping for....Unless there's a massive change, for example in something like Pension Provison/legislation, or a sudden offer of Paid, voluntary retirement, I suspect the current rate of retirements will probably be typical for some time to come.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

There is unpaid leave available on several fleets this summer. Mostly for F/Os.

According to the Balpa age demo-graphic figures there is a bit of a bulge of retirements forecast around 2020.

However, a large number of the top 1500 pilots are aged around 50. The real floodgates open in about 15-20 years, but who knows what will be left of BA by then.....

All this assumes every pilot working to 65 and no part time or expansion.

[RexBanner]

According to the Balpa age demo-graphic figures there is a bit of a bulge of retirements forecast around 2020.

Company sources are saying a big tranche in 2019 AND 2020. However that's of little comfort to the guys trying to stay afloat into 2018. My personal opinion is that there'll be a large take up of the aspirational part time contracts. There's only one new 787 this year, it was always going to be quiet. Things will pick up again from next year, no need for alarm.

[Flap62]

I think that all the numbers will change when NAPS is closed down in the next 2-3 years. Why would a late 50s Captain keep working if it's going to have no effect on his pension? I can see a huge number of retirements when the pension situation changes.

[Cuillin Hills]

Why would a late 50s Captain keep working if it's going to have no effect on his pension?


Ex wife(s) to pay for?

[4468]

Flap62
Why would a late 50s Captain keep working if it's going to have no effect on his pension?
Because they simply can't live without their perceived 'status'!

Cullin Hills

Anyone with an (more than one!) ex-wife, is likely to have a younger partner, and quite possibly a 'new' family too. - Expensive!

Very unlikely, pension changes will have any significant effect on retirements IMVHO!

[wiggy]

I suspect it's v rarely status that alone delays retirements beyond 55 these days, it's more likely a conservative ( small 'c') approach to life. As you get older you find crystal balls aren't all they are cracked up to be and IMHO I think in this day and age you need to be a very careful voluntarily dumping yourself out of the job market with up to 10 more potential years to run.

NAPS ain't bad but it's not the be all and end all, especially for those who joined as DEPs and still have dependant kids . .. I think even a single pilot or those of us married only once, and still married look at the sums these days and go "ummm, do I really want to jettison another 10 years of income" when we don't know what interest rates, inflation etc are going to do.

Like you I don't think NAPS closure itself will be an issue, it's more likely to be another tweak in pensions legislation.

[Bealzebub]

"Floodgates" of retirement are an illusion. With advancing age, the natural attrition smooths out the process. In the last 5-10 years of any pilot groups working life, a greater proportion will become medically unfit. Some will reduce their working footprint by such vehicles as part time working. A few will avail themselves of other opportunities. By the time that group reaches age 65 any projection of a " flood" or "bulge" is usually little more than a trickle.

Despite the perceived lure of retirement, for many people it focuses the mind on the limited timescale to achieve one final fiscal sprint. There is also the realisation that The job forces you to keep active, and for many that becomes an important motivator. Pilots at this end of their careers are also likely to be enjoying the best of the respective terms & conditions on offer, and would likely want to enjoy that for as long as possible.

When retirement was typically 55 it was more likely that a greater proportion of any given group would achieve that milestone. A retirement bulge (although still rare) was more conceivable. A decade of more gradual attrition simply provides for a much more gradual slope. Add to that improvements in maintaining medical certification standards, and the process becomes even smoother still.

In summary, retirements are a false hope. The real opportunities are going to come from economic growth.

[Plastic787]

I take the point that these things might smooth out bulges but retirement, decrease in medical fitness, part time options, they still all lead down one sure path: Recruitment.

"A rose by any other name"....

[HidekiTojo]

Rubbish. Early retirements will increase due to the extreme amount of flying current day pilots do. It's too much and the love is lost. I predict many pilots bailing out early on the career. The question is do they go for the part time option or leave all together. Part time has my vote. This is particularly apparent in BA. I often fly with captains who are part time, wanting it or close to giving up all together.

[basiljet]

Good info thank you. Do you know if we have to wait till October for all the new part time request etc before any concrete news comes out or do BA know who wants what before?

[4468]

Early retirements will increase due to the extreme amount of flying current day pilots do. It's too much and the love is lost. I predict many pilots bailing out early on the career.
Precisely why any pilots thinking of joining, should look very, very, very closely!

[VJW]

Yes because BA pilots work more hours for less money and worse T&C's then those of us at the Loco's.

Have to bite my tongue sometimes, but the above is simply ridiculous until the day there's an exodus of BA pilots back to the Loco's.

Those type of comments and/or views sound like they come from someone who has either never worked for RYR or completely forgotten what it's like, either way it's pretty naive to think someone doesn't know what they want having jumped through all the BA recruitment process hoops.

When's the last time HMRC audited a BA pilot?!

[wiggy]

What VJW said.

I suspect there's as much/little whinging at BA as anywhere else, though some make more noise than others, and TBH I think a few of the previous posts have been motivated by (perhaps understandable) wishful thinking .

I personally don't see a rush to the door caused by "high flying hours" - in the cold light of day where are these individuals going to jump to? FR, the Gulf, Tescos, the Job Exchange? There is however considerable demand for part time.

When's the last time HMRC audited a BA pilot?!

FWIW it happens, certainly amongst those non resident in the UK.................................

[FACoff]

With all the various rumours flying around, an email update is expected for those in the hold pool at some point in the next week or so.

Was there any substance to this in the end? As you say it would be nice to have a few of these rumours straightened out by the horse's mouth. Especially as they apparently aren't replying to people's emails.

[Jwscud]

Given the intention to get in touch was stated internally by one of the people responsible, I would hope it wouldn't be too long before you hear something.

[Cliff Secord]

"Floodgates" of retirement are an illusion. With advancing age, the natural attrition smooths out the process. In the last 5-10 years of any pilot groups working life, a greater proportion will become medically unfit. Some will reduce their working footprint by such vehicles as part time working. A few will avail themselves of other opportunities. By the time that group reaches age 65 any projection of a " flood" or "bulge" is usually little more than a trickle.

Despite the perceived lure of retirement, for many people it focuses the mind on the limited timescale to achieve one final fiscal sprint. There is also the realisation that The job forces you to keep active, and for many that becomes an important motivator. Pilots at this end of their careers are also likely to be enjoying the best of the respective terms & conditions on offer, and would likely want to enjoy that for as long as possible.

When retirement was typically 55 it was more likely that a greater proportion of any given group would achieve that milestone. A retirement bulge (although still rare) was more conceivable. A decade of more gradual attrition simply provides for a much more gradual slope. Add to that improvements in maintaining medical certification standards, and the process becomes even smoother still.

In summary, retirements are a false hope. The real opportunities are going to come from economic growth.

Do you foresee BA LH commands coming down from the nearly double decades?

[applecrumble]

Given the intention to get in touch was stated internally by one of the people responsible, I would hope it wouldn't be too long before you hear something.

Presumably said person alluded to the situation and what might be written in this email?

[4468]

Do you foresee BA LH commands coming down from the nearly double decades?
As has been said before. There was a very significant spike in recruitment of cadets in the early 90s. These pilots will now be approaching 50 years of age, and already on the top pay scale. They almost exclusively occupy LHS LH. There are hundreds of them, and I wouldn't foresee them going anywhere, anytime soon.

Just as we move out of one period of 'stagnation', another is about to begin.

So I would guess around 2030 before much changes from what we see today? The chance at that time, of BA looking anything like it does now, is highly questionable.

We definitely have a surplus of pilots at the moment!

[wiggy]

There was a very significant spike in recruitment of cadets in the early 90s.

Yep, the first of that generation of cadets were already on line when I joined BA (as a DEP) in the very late 80's and a significant number also came on line over the next few years. Many of those individuals are, almost 30 years later, sitting very high on their senority lists with potentially 10-15 years more to go until reaching 65.
As you rightly say:" I wouldn't foresee them going anywhere, anytime soon."

[FlyingSaucepan]

The chance at that time, of BA looking anything like it does now, is highly questionable.

How do you see BA looking?
Reduction in T+C's or product dilution?

[Snapper5]

BAs T&Cs are on a slippery slope , it does not take a genius to figure that out !
Greedy shareholders at the top and ever increasing pressure from the likes of Norwegian etc..
BA is an un streamlined beast compared to the ruthless efficiency of today's Locos .
One of the Best ways to make more profit margin is to reduce T&Cs

[RexBanner]

Do we really need to start going down this path? This site is overwhelmingly negative as it is. The thing is all of these observations would be great if aviation as an industry was in isolation but tell me one industry that is immune to the overall trend nowadays. Hell I was even speaking to a lawyer a while back who was complaining about the exact same trends that we observe.

The other problem is people always remember the past with rose tinted spectacles and have a serious lack of perspective. To illustrate, I heard someone on the train the other day talking about the terror zeitgeist of today and seriously describing the 1990's as peaceful and carefree! Presumably they were living under a rock during the WTC Bombing, Luxor Massacre, Rwandan Genocide, Bosnian conflict and genocide, Gulf War, Columbine Massacre, Manchester Bombing, Paris Metro Bombings, Air France Algiers Hijack, Tokyo Subway Sarin gas attack, bomb attack on the 1996 Olympics and Oklahoma bombing etc etc.

Snapper5 you don't even work for us so how you can be party to what's going on re Terms and Conditions to start chipping in I don't know.

[Snapper5]

I know 4 guys in BA , 3 on SH and 1 on the 787
So have a good understanding on what it's like .
I'm not trying to get anyone down but it's the truth

[Boeing 7E7]

Wow. I know 6 guys. Standby for my 2 pence worth very soon. "You'll be amazed". As Donald Trump might say.

[Snapper5]

Well done you ! I'm sure all six are "living the dream"

[Boeing 7E7]

You'd be amazed.

[bex88]

VJW........I think you believe the hype. I could go to EZY and gain a pay rise in the region of 25k right now. A few of my colleague recently took EZY offers DEC. There have been a recent handful of LH FO's who have given notice. Simple truth is BA is good, it's average and really really crap, it just depends what you want from it.

Snapper......your probably right but flight ops has changed a lot over the past few years. T&C have not been squeezed but we have been asked to do more for the same. LOCO guys bang out 4 sectors out of a regional base but we bang out three from LHR. The truth is we are working to EASA FTL's and more trip combinations will work us close to the maximum hours. I don't think we come up against the 900hr limit easily but the duty time is more of an issue. BA has a lot of modernising to do but flight ops is a long way down that road. Will we see T&C's reduce? Probably indirectly and probably for new joiners in the future but we are never going to be a LOCO and if we were then actually some of use would get a pay rise.

[Cliff Secord]

Where are the LH FOs heading for?

[bex88]

Back to the LOCOs where they came from. I don't think it speaks volumes either way it just highlights that BA is not for everyone. If you want to be at home at night, close to home etc then I guess you would hate BA at the bottom of any list.

[Cliff Secord]

Yeah that's a fair point. Isn't your fabled bid system being changed? Seems pretty drastic given a lot of the pluses on here seem regarding obtaining chunks of time off from using the system. I'd ask if this new thing would be a positive but if a company agrees to something it usually has glaring catches in my experience :}

[Max Angle]

but if a company agrees to something it usually has glaring catches in my experience Its worse than that, its the system the company practically begged the union to get the pilot workforce to agree to and when it came to a vote the suckers went for it having rejected an almost identical proposal only a short time before. All it needed was a few well placed sweeteners and the suckers went for it and voted it through. :ugh:

[Cliff Secord]

Wt actual?! Good luck with that one if the firm pushed for it.

[bex88]

It's all democratic......we vote and get the wrong answer. We are then told we are naughty pilots and are told we must vote again until till we get the right answer.

Bidline is over rated but the limited ability to trade work is beneficial.

[FACoff]

VJW........I think you believe the hype. I could go to EZY and gain a pay rise in the region of 25k right now. A few of my colleague recently took EZY offers DEC. There have been a recent handful of LH FO's who have given notice. Simple truth is BA is good, it's average and really really crap, it just depends what you want from it.

Bear in mind that 25k not only gets taxed to the high heavens, but also buys you considerable fatigue and roster disruption. Furthermore your salary at BA will only ever improve, as will your seniority and therefore lifestyle. EZY will have you working the same 5 day min rest/max FDP duties with the same endless roster changes until you're forced into part time - at which point of course that extra cash disappears anyway.

Ultimately I suppose the same is true, EZY has ups and downs depending on what you want from it. Invariably, however, the things you want are usually the things the company doesn't provide.

BA (to my knowledge) is a good employer, offers stability, lifestyle, a career path and a half decent salary. I really do believe some people don't know how good they've got it.

[bex88]

That's probably the most accurate comment you will find on here.

[Right Engine]

To clear up a few misconceptions

On BA SH here. Last financial year I spent 120 days in a hotel on BA duty.

That is the major difference between EJ and BA.
A 5 on 4 off, 5 on 3 off contract with BA's 4 blocks of a week's leave and 10 lieu days (for missed bank holidays) or as we call them 2 x Duty Free Weeks. What does that get you?

Add all those days off up, and you end up in BA
1. Working around 9 days more per year than a 5/4/5/3 EJ pilot and
2. Being away from home around 120 nights.

Short Haul in BA is not greener than the grass of EJ. Just different. And considerably less often at home. But once you gain seniority, you're home often at a time when you want to be.

[4468]

I'd be very interested to hear from any pilots who think they spend more time in uniform (or in hotels away from home!) than BA SH pilots!

I once went a week before I realised I'd worn no clothes other than BA uniform!

Of course it does save on wardrobe costs!

[Nil further]

Yeah i bumped in to a very nice BA pilot and his wife in a very expensive 5 star Edinburgh city centre hotel which BA uses for SH night stops .........Anyone who thinks that will continue is likely to be disappointed .

Must be costing an absolute fortune .Enjoy it whilst you can.

[Snapper5]

Supposedly it costs around £60million a year for all of the HOTAC expenses

[shabon]

Just to offer an extra opinion from an insider.... joined a a year or so ago on LH and get an average of 4 trips a month equating to around 10-12 nights out of bed a month.

Really enjoying the job and I personally think BA is a good employer....and whilst Im tired at the end of a trip, it pales in comparison to the fatigue I had at my previous LOCO. Theres certainly no way Id be handing my notice in to go back to it as someone mentioned above.

Horses for courses.

[Tay Cough]

Point of order:

10 lieu days (for missed bank holidays) or as we call them 2 x Duty Free Weeks.

Duty Free Weeks (for a full-time pilot) are 2 x 7 day blocks plus a non-assignable day so up to sixteen days off annually, one DFW per season.

This gives a total of 42 leave/DFW days per year plus two Non-assignable days (with DFW) and four "wrap days" per week of leave. Overall, 60 days off associated with leave or DFW. All DFW and leave days have credit hours attached (a matter of opinion whether you consider this credit to be sufficient - most don't), NA and wrap days do not.

[tommytailwind]

Shabon - 10 to 12 nights a month out of your own bed or 10 to 12 nights a month out of any bed? I assume (and hope!) not the latter?

I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.

[thetimesreader84]

From reading prune & talking to friends, it does seem BA is "a tale of two airlines"; those on Long Haul who love it, spend 1 week - 10 days away from home each month, get to see the world and love it, and those on Short Haul, who are bouncing off duty hours limits, spending more time in hotels than at home, building fatigue and generally getting the brown end of the stick (their words - not mine!) from senior management.

Not that much of this matters, as we stare at our respective hold pool exits approaching, hearing rumours of unpaid leave, over crewing, delayed courses for cadets etc. It does leave a bit of a sour taste having put a hell of a lot of work in to get into the pool, only for radio silence... Would it stop me re applying? Probably not, which I guess says a lot.

Anyone know if a hold pool update is scheduled?

[wiggy]

As has been said horses for courses..when Concorde was grounded temporarily the pilots got briefly redeployed to other Fleets. There were a few who admitted to struggling with the increased need for nights out of bed and were relatively relieved when they could return to the supersonic fleet....also in more benevolent times there were pilots who crossed over from Short Haul, struggled with the roster pattern, and were allowed to return on medical grounds to their short haul fleet. No criticism is intended of either of the above groups, simply pointing out that with the best will in the world some really struggle with the Long Haul roster pattern.

To add to the "nights" out of bed discussion,...easy to end up with 5 "short" long haul trips (e.g. JFK, ORD, The Gulf ) in a month...assume just about every Longhaul out and back trip has one overnight sector, (though a few have none by way of balance some have night sectors both ways) and also at least one night in a hotel.....there's your ten nights away from home...and that's probably about the least you can do in a full month.

As far as the other discussion about T&Cs..are they as good as they were? No.
Will they stay at the current level? No.
Is the rate of "decay" in T&Cs going to increase or decrease? Your guess is as good as mine.

[shabon]

Shabon - 10 to 12 nights a month out of your own bed or 10 to 12 nights a month out of any bed? I assume (and hope!) not the latter?

I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.

The former fortunately, if it were the latter I might have a differing opinion..!

Glad you've made it back to where you prefer! All the best

[Wireless]

those on Long Haul who love it, spend 1 week - 10 days away from home each month, ?

1 week away from home a month, ha where did you read that? I'll try and be factual as my roster has been.

Min trip length generally 3 days. On my fleet usually 3-4 day trips. Usually 5 ish, sometimes almost 6 trips on a busy month without leave depending on stacks of variables. Arriving back home before lunch on day 3 isn't a really free day, certainly doesn't feel like it (unless your superman) as you normally have to hit the hay to make it through to the eve.

Best bet is to live near so you don't have to travel in night before on a morning report. But near to T5 in London terms is living in T3 ;).

On leave free months, seems to work average out in region of 11-14 days off a month/ usefully at home (presuming you don't travel to near lhr night before work). Those days off are split into little bits between trips.

[wiggy]

Wireless

This sometimes comes over as a pot half full/half empty argument but in my book any day involving work is a working day!

Three day trip - Report time on day one can often leave you no useful time at all at home pre going to work (and FWIW even Longhaul has some pre 0800 local reports), day two you are obviously (?) away, and even if you get in early on day three by the time you have probably/possibly caught up on sleep after your "nightshift" it can often be pretty much be a "dead" day. Multiply it up (worse case) by perhaps 5 or even 6 trips a month and see what's left of the month.

[Wireless]

Yeah, I agree.

For me it isn't a pot half/full empty thing it's more basic fact of life. No such thing as a free lunch.

I think of it this way. There is a reason you're arriving into LHR at 0900. That is you've missed that night in bed. Nothing in life is free as they say. All you've done is deferred what you should've been doing that night, on your trip, to doing into on your time off - sleeping.

So when you go arrive back home, you could power through. I find it just consists of dribbling in a corner feeling quite unwell and then passing out with your dinner on the floor ;-). So you go to sleep, wake up feeling drugged then sleep that night, normally like a corpse.

Keeping in mind 2 days later (1.5 if you travel night before) you're meant to have tried to recover what you lost on that last overnight, plus be rested to go back to starting in the morning. If you don't try to get it back you're travelling down the highway to burnout town pretty quickly :-)

Also, when I say useful day at home, day 3 of a trip can be quite a problematic half day at home depending how you handle it / partner's sympathy to Mr Dead, corpse like state etc.

[wiggy]

Also, when I say useful day at home, day 3 of a trip can be quite a problematic half day at home depending how you handle it / partner's sympathy to Mr Dead, corpse like state etc.

Oh it's not just me then....:ok:

[Tay Cough]

Mow the lawn, wash the car, dig the garden. Accounts best avoided I find. ;)

[Wireless]

Oh it's not just me then....:ok:

No, I call day 3/return home day my "just inching off being single/right, that's it I'm jacking this LH crap in if I live through the night and don't melt or self combust along with the sofa" day. :E

Day 1 off is "being single immediate threat over/it's ok really, just have a small bit of washing and some chores" day.

Day 2 off is....." more chores/ oh not that bloody suitcase again [insert location of where you live]" day

[applecrumble]

Can someone who knows what's what say roughly how widespread this unpaid leave offer is.
Has it been offered to all fleets?
I thought there were a fair few long haulers knocking up against 900H?

[wiggy]

Can someone who knows what's what say roughly how widespread this unpaid leave offer is.
Has it been offered to all fleets?

Not sure what level of detail it's safe to print here, so forgive me if I simply say it's not across the board; it's targetted to about half a dozen specific combinations of Fleets and seats. It's certainly looks like it's available widely on short/midhaul haul types, it's slightly less available on longhaul....I'll let those with an interest draw their own conclusions.

The 900 hour'ish Longhaulers are separate issue and I'm sure will be dealt with as per the usual longstanding procedure ( i.e. via the monthly bid process by to some extent limiting trip selection), rather than standing down targetted indviduals as part of an unpaid leave process.

[applecrumble]

Thank you Wiggy.

[FlipFlapFlop]

As a swimmer I have not been over encouraged by the posts over the last few days. Suspect I will be hanging around north of London for a bit longer. Still, its better than Doha.

[applecrumble]

With any luck we will be allowed to remain in the pool until there is a requirement. It's not in BA's interest to make us do it all again.
To be fair, the plan changes very quickly so what's happening now doesn't guarantee what's going to happen next year.
Last year there was unpaid voluntary leave offered on short haul. DEP's joined in Jan/Feb. Go figure.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Hope you are right applecrumble but BA do have history here.

[applecrumble]

I know, fingers crossed.
I would hope that it is hard to justify chucking suitable candidates out of the pool when it costs so much. In this day and age of cost cutting and competition.

[Reversethrustset]

Unfortunately they won't bat an eyelid regarding costs and what's sensible, if they want to disband the hold pool again they'll just do it at will.

[skyloone]

BA HR seem pretty good at blowing cash. I suspect it's a sort of "justifying" the jobs/headcount they have. The old mantra..... look busy!

[thetimesreader84]

Realistically though, how much does it cost?

Day 1; A days wage for someone to administer, then mark the written tests. A proportion of the purchase cost of said test (which given that they will be used across the BA organisation, for engineers, clerical etc etc, means that proportion is less), the purchase cost of the computer exams.

Day 2; a days wage for 6 or so pilots, plus 6 or so HR bods. Some money for a round of Tesco sandwiches.

So for the first 2 screening days, the main cost is wages, I'd say. And given that these people are already employed full time, they'd be paying that wage anyway.

Mentally I'm resigned to having to go through the whole rigmarole again.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Mentally I'm resigned to having to go through the whole rigmarole again.

My expiriation is in exactly 12 months, and from what I read I am fairly convinced that that time will come and go with no offer. Not sure that I will put myself through it all again, I'll be within 2 yrs of a command where I am by then...

A quick vow-pox from people - given the 18 month hold pool time now, when do you sink?

[thetimesreader84]

June '18.

And similar, will be looking at command board at current airline at the end of 2018.

[wiggy]

The old and overly posh HR types working at BA have an archaic view of things and could be the grandmas of most of the pilots BA has hired over the last 3 years.

For the sake of accuracy I'm not sure how many of the actual "HR types" would be BA employees these days ( Waterside has been well and truely denuded of staff over the last few years) , they are described in a lot of the literature as "HR associates", which my guess means they are consultants - though I'm open to correction and in any event accept that BA has to carry the can for any impressions given.

That aside reading the comments here I can accept that overall it may not be perceived as a great experience for many - I think the mad dash to recruit a year or two back has led to expectations which may now not be delivered, but sadly it's also fairly typical of the roller coaster ride that can be the 'BA employee experience' ...

[VJW]

Lots of good points mentioned above. Regarding the cost to BA to run the recruitment process; yes it might not cost a great deal to empty the pool and start again but in this day and age of cost cutting, you do wonder what's the point of incurring any additional unnecessary costs though?

Having failed a couple times prior to being successful this last time I do know for us candidates it's certainly not easy to pass, but I wonder what their logic is regarding our ability to do the job if after 18 months they don't offer us one. Provided we are still working in our current airline and having already passed BA, what exactly do BA think has happened to our ability in this time? As far as I can see we've only gone and gained even more experience and are bringing even more to the table.

It is of course their train set, and while I'm still positive I do know two things;
1. I'm happy I passed and am at least in this situation instead of having failed again, and
2. Having passed I now know then level you need to be at to get through. Should I need to do it all again, while I won't be overly happy, I'm pretty sure I'd pass.

FWIW I expire in early March 2018.

[wiggy]

in this day and age of cost cutting, you do wonder what's the point of incurring any additional unnecessary costs though?

Agreed, dumping the pool and starting again would fly in the face of the increasing frequency of communicatuons we get about the need to cut costs.

[polepilot]

I expire Feb 2018 but am suprised the guys expiring later in 2018 are not more confident of a call seeing that 2018 has all the aircraft deliveries.... I however expect no phone call personally

[FoxChaRomeo]

It's the glimmer of hope I cling too!

[wiggy]

Remember that roller coaster ride I mentioned earlier? Here's an example - same source for both stories (Bloomberg)

1. Feb 2016: "IAG Seeks to Expand British Airways Fleet "

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-02-26/british-airways-owner-iag-s-profit-jumps-68-on-atlantic-gains

2. Nov 2016: "British Airways Pares Fleet Plan, Seeks Job Cuts"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-04/british-airways-owner-slashes-fleet-growth-to-save-1-6-billion

[Saab0409]

Still expiring October 2017, so could be worse lads ;)

[thetimesreader84]

To explain my negativity, despite dropping out of the pool quite late in 2018;

I think BA will get some new aircraft next year. They might not take all the 787s they have scheduled for delivery early next year, but will take some - maybe 5 out of the 7 they've got scheduled between now and summer '18. Any SH (A320/321neo) aircraft will be more or less pro rata replacements for retiring aircraft, or sent to Spain, or elsewhere.

So there will be a need for new pilots in the spring, but I think the bulk of it will be met by the FPP cadets, the general overcrewing that BA seems to have at the moment, and lastly by people in the hold pool who are above me - but even then not many, maybe a dozen. If I had an expiry date between Dec - Mar, I think that'll be about the sweet spot and I fancy your chances. Before or after (I'm after) you'll be too far up or down the "seniority" to escape and drown in the pool.

Of course, all this rumour and speculation could be killed by an update from BA...

[applecrumble]

Jan 18
If they make offers for next year then that would start in Sept/Early Oct to allow 3/4 months notice. Will be interesting to see ......
I put a tremendous amount of effort into the "process" and must admit that a 4th time with no guarantee, having dropped out of the pool once would probably be taking the pi**

[basiljet]

I'm applying for anyone I can think of and only PFO so far. It's a daft system but hoping for the best planning for the worst I think is now the only way.

[binsleepen]

Timesreader84,

I wouldn't be quite so negative if I were you. I expect BA to take all the 787s it ordered because at the moment we have many slots at LHR that we gained with the BMI takeover that are not being efficiently used. The slots are being used on shorthaul domestic and european routes like Leeds that don't bring in nearly the sort of revenue that a longhaul route does. Also 1 SH aircraft could use up to 4 pairs of slots a day where a LH aircraft would only use 1, and its slots that are at a premium at LHR. After the BMI takeover BA was very short of LH aircraft.

On the holdpool front I wouldn't count on costs being a reason not to expire. I was in the hold pool in 2010 when cost were just as much an issue and I drowned only to finally get a course in 2012 on my 3rd attempt. It happened many times before me and has happened since.

All the best and stay positive.

[thetimesreader84]

Binsleepin,

I don't have a crystal ball, a hotline to Alex Cruz or Willie Walsh. I know a few guys on various fleets in BA, and that's about it. So anything I write is just guesstimating based on what's out in the public domain, and what little I can glean from here, and mates on the inside. Unfortunately, my guesstimates seem to be pointing towards 2018 being another slow year for recruitment, and given that I'm a long way down the list for recruitment, I don't think it's going to happen for me this time. I don't dispute what you are saying about LH vs SH slots, I just don't see sufficient aircraft orders / crewing levels to justify recruiting 40-200 (the generally accepted pool size) DEPs between September and July '18.

And if I have to go through it again, I'm not convinced of getting over the line second time around.

Congrats on finally getting in, even if it was some time ago!

[applecrumble]

First quarter results for IAG.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/iag-profit-edges-higher-on-lower-fuel-costs-2017-05-05

[bex88]

Ummm yeah I saw the share price earlier and had to google what had happened. As ever though with this industry we swing from one up to another down etc etc. I don't like admitting it but it seems the guys at the top may know what they are doing. The only sting in there was "our unit cost is still to high". Probably true but I doubt it's aimed in the direction of flight ops.

On a side note and more to the topic I flew with a new FPP recently so there is still some draw off the pool. A few friends of mine who went LH and were part time on SH have also decided that they will be keeping their part time on LH.

Ah yes one other thing was that the noises about pension sustainability from the company would seem to indicate that there could be some large changes for NAPS and APS on the horizon. I am no pension expert but the number of guys who have said "I am only hear for the pension, or the day that looks like it will close I will go part time and start drawing it" could change things with respect recruitment going forward.

Maybe it's overly positive but I certainly sympathise with those who have worked so hard to get into the pool.

[JammedStab]

A nice video here about the recruitment process for BA and a lot of the operations background. Not pilot oriented but interesting nonetheless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY4ISW8uB1Y

[JammedStab]

A follow-on video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_lfPtDG0Y0

[thetimesreader84]

Anyone else get the email?

[basiljet]

Yup. Good of them to finally send something though.

[MikeAlpha320]

Not heard anything. Anyone else in the same boat?

[320Airbus]

What did the email say for you guys? Haven't got anything through

[flap full landing cx]

I've not had an email either, been swimming since November. Would appreciate if someone could summarise it for us.

[FACoff]

Nothing here either. Can anyone enlighten us?

[doogle92]

Zero change since what we were told in January was the gist of it

[thetimesreader84]

Yep, zero change from the last update.

Confirmed some of the stuff on here - part time has been offered, FPP courses slip to later this year, no dep recruitment expected this year.

And a request to not post rumours on social media sites.

[FACoff]

Cheers guys. Naturally I was crossing my fingers for the opposite but at least they've broken the silence. FPP courses definitely just later this year and not next?

[thetimesreader84]

Doesn't say either way. "The FPP graduates will now be joining us later in the year" is the phrase they used, in my email at least.

My reading of the tone is that BA are hedging their bets as to whether they'll need us next year. But I have been pulled up for my negativity on here before!:}

[VJW]

Strange everyone swimming didn't get the email.

[RexBanner]

Check your junk folder diligently. The email that went out in October/November 2015 asking people to confirm their hours I never received as it had been filtered straight to junk. Think it cost me a long haul offer.

[flap full landing cx]

After not receiving one yesterday I have today got the email. The news is.... no news.

[Love_joy]

You never know... Alex might have just put one bo*"ock on the chopping block, could result in changes at the top - which could go either way.

Edit: in his defence, he's standing firm while apologising profusely. He's not hiding, strong positive leadership is exactly what's needed.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Edit: in his defence, he's standing firm while apologising profusely. He's not hiding, strong positive leadership is exactly what's needed.

You are joking aren't you? The man is hated by 99% of BA staff and was missing in action most of the weekend apart from bizarre youtube videos dressed like Bob the Builder, or Yammer rants peeving even more people off..

[Binder]

Really Love joy?

To me his response was too little too late and totally insincere.

Not good.

[thetimesreader84]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/30/british-airways-ba-owner-drops-value-it-meltdown

Well, there goes the recruitment budget.

[Doug E Style]

The nickname "Ebenezer Cruz" is doing the rounds now.

[recall_checked]

The share price is still the highest it has been for years 'thanks' to that man.

[wiggy]

It may well be at the moment and that might keep some in jobs and enable bonus payments for some for a year or two. OTOH regardless of the current balance sheet/share price the reputational damage has been done.....and that's probably of more concern for stakeholders and potential stakeholders.

[angelo26]

Hi all,

I have a question, do you know if it is mandatory to have an Easa UK Caa issued licence in order ot join BA or is it enough to have an EASA licence?

[VJW]

You need a UK licence before joining. So once they make you an offer (if they do) you begin the process during your noticed period.

[applecrumble]

So what are we thinking now?
Do we think that new pilots will be needed after all this IT stuff.

[Northern Monkey]

Not sure there is anyone in the world who could answer that question right now. Including the recruitment team.

[polepilot]

My money would be on no recruitment for the forseeable future...

[thetimesreader84]

BA under Cruz have taken the decision to cut as much cost as they can - Buy On Board, outsourcing of IT, and probably more that we on the outside aren't party to. (Minimising) Cost is King, and any department head that can cut their area's bottom line will be encouraged to do so. Strategically the growth of Norwegian and other Lo-Cos seem to have thoroughly spooked them, and it seems they are trying to compete on cost - whether that's the right way of doing things I've no idea. I've got my opinion, but I'll save that for the spotters forums.

What does this mean for aircrew? I've been saying it for a while, sweating the assets. No more recruitment until BA are on the verge of a schedule collapse, or outsource some routes at a lower "cost" via a bit of creative accounting. Those currently employed will be asked to work longer, for less, and probably a raid on Ts & Cs also. It wouldn't surprise me if an Irish Subsidiary gets set up too, like SAS are planning.

But, I've been called out for being too negative before.

[Right Engine]

BA have got a pilot surplus. Not a big one, but certainly on SH Airbus they've over-cooked recruitment. Some say they did this because late 2017 was the provisional delivery date for the the A350. But someone with a beard and a tabard cancelled that plan at what seems, very short notice. So BA have now got too many A320 pilots at LHR. So they're allowing some to leave during engagement freezes (first 5 years) as FPP's arrive.
Hence the slowdown.

Watching the vultures on the carcass here, I'd like to add : we're good. Find us a new CEO and we are better. But your armchair hypotheses are to be honest, a load of b......

[RexBanner]

Watching the vultures on the carcass here, I'd like to add : we're good. Find us a new CEO and we are better. But your armchair hypotheses are to be honest, a load of b......

Seconded. The IAG group just made £1.5 Billion in profit of which the vast majority (as usual) was down to the airline that some are saying here is in dire straits. IAG would be monumentally stupid to significantly mutilate their cash cow. Things definitely need to change as regard cost cutting above all else but I would hope some form of salutary lesson has been learned in the last week or so. Alex Cruz has been left in absolutely no doubt as to the depth of feeling on the shop floor recently on Yammer (which he so likes to use) with some people directly calling for his resignation. There is one particular post from a 777 Captain - that I wholeheartedly agreed with - which was scathing in the extreme. He (Cruz) may not have responded to it but he can't fail to have taken notice. This is hopefully the moment of the Company's nadir. It simply has to be.

As regards to the future, well we're talking momentary blips here in terms of pilot numbers. The overall trend is for people needed, regardless of a big compensation bill in the short term. For starters there's an 18 month waitlist for Right to Request Part Time, plus a potentially big take up of the new Aspirational options. Further on 2019/2020 sees a "big" bulge of retirements (in whichever context you take big to mean I don't know but this came from the pilot training manager). More new Long Haul aircraft arriving from next year as more Short Haul slots continually get converted to Long Haul. It will be moving in the right direction again. This year was always going to be comparatively slow, I don't know how many more times that needs to be emphasised. Perhaps not as slow as it has turned out to be once Cruz renegotiated the A350 deliveries (as stated above) and chopped the SH flying programme but 2017 was never the big recruitment year.

The future need in the light of recent events perhaps may not be as full on as 2015/2016 but there's still people needed, make no mistake. Although the accountants and management may not like it, you still need pilots to run an airline (for now).

[45989]

Interesting to see the optimists v pessimists here.
Somewhat understandable when one is trying to get a foot on any ladder.
Problem is BA is trying to be Premium and Loco at the same time.
Crazy strategy. All it has done is destroy the Premium brand.
The day I was offered a "bacon buttie" for breakfast having paid over 3000 stg
for a one way Business ticket PHX-LHR was the day it became clear there is no direction.
No surprise the ME carriers are destroying the legacy airlines

[Snapper5]

It's a shame really , BA to me was always the aspiration, the place you really wanted to be for security and a career.
But now guys and gals prefer there lifestyle at locos , watching BA slowly crumble under its confusion of what it wants to become.
Mr Cruz should never have made so many cuts !

[Enzo999]

Give the BA bashing a break it's all very boring. It still remains one of the best airlines to fly for in the U.K. And it's terms and conditions (although worse than used to be) are still the best.

Every time they recruit floods of people come from Easy and Ryan very few people are going in the other direction!

No the quality of product is not as high as the ME carriers but they have always had money thrown at them so it's not a fair comparison Emirates profits have nose dived Ethihads investments have all failed loosing them billions and Qatar are just plain mental whereas BA/IAG make money and lots of it so all this talk of crisis is rubbish. I believe they will be around for a long time to come and terms and conditions won't get any worse any one that says otherwise is scaremongering.

P.S I have worked for these mithical ME Airlines and wild horses would not drag me back.

[Enzo999]

Get rejected did you?

[Icanseeclearly]

Button pushed ignored.

What a load of :mad:

Why so anti BA did they find you out and not employ you??

[Vokes55]

And it's terms and conditions (although worse than used to be) are still the best.

I think there are plenty of people in other UK airlines that would disagree with you. Myself included. Actually, if the majority of BA staff were to remove that stick from their rectum and drop the 'my job is more important than your job' persona, they may get more respect from the rest of the airline community.

[wiggy]

I might not agree with some of the language used above but it's not an entirely unreasonable sentiment.

We have no idea what the result for employees will be for last week events....but the bonus schemes have been historically p poor compared with most of the completion, even after a good year...so next year.........

As far as flight crew are concerned there seem to be some issues surfacing with the replacement to Bidline that some think may well effect roster quality and quality of life.

[Enzo999]

I think there are plenty of people in other UK airlines that would disagree with you. Myself included. Actually, if the majority of BA staff were to remove that stick from their rectum and drop the 'my job is more important than your job' persona, they may get more respect from the rest of the airline community.

I think that's a very unfair comment and says more about your own "issues" than those of most BA staff. I have been flying for 13 years now and in that time I have flown for several other UK companies along with BA for the past year. I am in no way a Cheerleader of BA and will be the first to point out its failings I also don't see BA as "Better" than anyone else or look down my nose at other Airlines. I also see there are many benefits to working for a LCC or Charter but in my experience terms and conditions are not one of them. As said I have worked for several U.K. Companies and have applied for most of the others so have a very good understanding of what's on offer else where and In my experience this is as good as it gets. PPJN will tell the story in my first year I will make early/Mid 70s in salary, a pension contribution of 13%, 6 weeks off spaced equally, PHI, LOL, world wide staff travel, free type rating That's far better than the Zero hour contract I would get at Easy or Ryan, the 10/13th salary at Monarch plus these guys all charge 30k for ratings.

On another note before coming here I proscribed to a similar feeling about BA pilots but having worked here it's totally unjustified, on the whole they are amoughst the best guys and girls I have flown with.

Maybe it's not the BA guys that need to pull that sick out.

[Snapper5]

Just for info Monarch is now full time again , but the hours you fly are probably equivalent to part year ( with full year pay MADNESS) about 750ish
Anyway I believe the choice at BA is fantastic!! You can make the job fit around you (with seniority) which you just can't do at other airlines

[thetimesreader84]

There's a reason that there's a number of us stressing (to a greater or lesser extent) about when / if we'll get yanked out of the hold pool, and I would suggest that ego is a long way down the list.

Pay, Lifestyle and Career Progression are my number 1,2 and 3 reasons for wanting this. Not necessarily in that order.

[applecrumble]

I must admit that even if we aren't taken out of the pool straight away I would be astounded if they didn't keep us swimming.
That really is chucking money down the toilet. I know they have done that in the past but surely if there is an easy way to save cost then that would be it!

[RexBanner]

Wiggy surely it can't be coming as a surprise to people that there will be less roster control under JSS. Regardless of how its been sold, JSS is just a preferencing system, no more, no less. As you're not going to be able to see the lines in advance, it is my understanding that there will be close to zero control like we get now under Bidline. The other problem is that once the union agreements have taken their toll JSS will not function as it is supposed to. We'll end up with Carmen MkII where nobody is happy.

[Max Angle]

Yep, those who voted for it after believing the union hard sell are in for a very nasty shock when they see how much control they have lost and how much the company have gained One of the best rostering systems in the world has been chucked out for a few scraps and Alex Cruz has been handed exactly what he wanted, huge mistake.

[wiggy]

Wiggy surely it can't be coming as a surprise to people that there will be less roster control under JSS.

Agree with you and Max, certainly it should be no surprise at all to those who have seen various "innovations" in our scheduling over the years...

[Craggenmore]

Emirates profits have nose dived Ethihads investments have all failed loosing them billions and Qatar are just plain mental whereas BA/IAG make money and lots of it

Correct - EK's profit nosedived from 7.7 billion last year to 2.5 Billion this year.

This woeful profit of 2.5 Billion is still 1 Billion more than IAG's. Not bad for a single airline against IAG's many airlines.

Good luck with the applications everybody.

[Superpilot]

Yeah not bad when you own the friggin oil supply

[Cough]

Craggenmore...

Having just checked those figures, I agree that EK's profit was 2.5 Billion. Just check the currency units though, does make one heck of a difference...

[OBK!]

Dirham fail. Doh!

[Enzo999]

An 85% drop in profits is fairly dramatic no matter how you twist it. Considering they have had an airport built for them (actually 2), most of their aircraft gifted to them, no unions, unbelievable amounts of slave labour, cheap oil and no social taxes, frankly there is no excuse for this not being the most profitable airline in the world!

I agree though they produce a good product.

[Phil.Capron]

Wiggy surely it can't be coming as a surprise to people that there will be less roster control under JSS. Regardless of how its been sold, JSS is just a preferencing system, no more, no less. As you're not going to be able to see the lines in advance, it is my understanding that there will be close to zero control like we get now under Bidline. The other problem is that once the union agreements have taken their toll JSS will not function as it is supposed to. We'll end up with Carmen MkII where nobody is happy.

Ditching Bidline for a preference system is stupid. I would be interested to know the rational behind any decision to do that.

[Right Engine]

Ditching Bidline for a preference system is stupid. I would be interested to know the rational behind any decision to do that.

The rationale was a dipsh*t membership, a convincing BACC and very close ballot results.
It's only the Roster production side. Current Ops processes remain as before. So roster stability still in place.

[jb5000]

It's not a preference system.

[RexBanner]

Jb5000, yes it is. Are we going to be able to see each individual line we are bidding for pre roster release a la Stage 1 of Bidline? The answer is no. So basically JSS is the equivalent of being on a Blind line expressing preferences at Stage 2.

[jb5000]

No it's not. You are bidding for specific trips, types of trip and days off.

The system generates many (hundreds of thousands..) of lines that satisfy your criteria and when those junior to you have bid it whittles down your lines until you have one possibility remaining at which point it locks in.

If one bid group can't be satisfied it then moves further down your bid groups until one can be so it's possible to rank your bids in decreasing importance.

It's not a preference system at all. As you might have guessed, I think it'll be way better.

[no sponsor]

That's how preference bidding systems work. You put your top preference in, if you can't get it, it gives you your next preference, and so on.

[jb5000]

By that definition stage 1 of current bidline is a preference system then.

[no sponsor]

With the exception that today you can see entire the line of work you want. With this new system you can't. No seeded blind lines either. It also means no one will know what they are doing until 2 weeks before the start of the month, quite different to today. The rules driving the preferences are hidden and given BACCs track record the control of those will cede to the company over the coming years. It all favours BA.

For those who know Carmen, it's a :mad: storm heading our way.

[Maxfli]

Correct - EK's profit nosedived from 7.7 billion last year to 2.5 Billion this year.

This woeful profit of 2.5 Billion is still 1 Billion more than IAG's. Not bad for a single airline against IAG's many airlines.

Good luck with the applications everybody.

I understand EK profits were just over US$300m from the airline business.


Emirates airline profits plunge 82.5% in past year | UAE News | Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/05/emirates-airline-profits-825-percent-year-170511152138875.html)

[Northern Monkey]

It also means no one will know what they are doing until 2 weeks before the start of the month

While personally I'm disappointed to see the end of bidline, I believe the above point to be incorrect. I'll wait for someone who has the actual documents to hand to confirm this but I'm pretty sure one of the benefits of JSS was final rosters published earlier than is the case today.

[wiggy]

I'm pretty sure one of the benefits of JSS was final rosters published earlier than is the case today..

As in final final rosters? I think that's the theory, but I wonder if the latest ballot result has put a hole in that for the shorthaulers?

All a far far cry from the days of having the luck/seniority to pick up and see your "full" tripline 4 weeks plus ahead of the month in question, but OTOH no doubt an improvement for Blindline holders who got their rosters relatively at the last minute... so as it stands at the moment definitely a benefit for some.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

With the exception that today you can see entire the line of work you want. With this new system you can't. No seeded blind lines either. It also means no one will know what they are doing until 2 weeks before the start of the month, quite different to today.

So just as it is for those of us on spending our lives on Blind Lines then! Not so different for many of us.

We're doing Reserve every other month on my fleet and get to find out what we're doing at 8pm the night before for half the year. I voted to keep Bidline and FPA (the loss of which, in combination with becoming a short haul only fleet last year, has been financially devastating) but here we are, democracy has spoken. Apparently. :hmm:

[no sponsor]

You might remember the EASA alleviation obtained for roster publication by BA...

[jb5000]

20 days before the end of the month is the roster production deadline. It's all in the paperwork we've been sent.

(Plus probably 2 days extra for shorthaul due to the bmi bubble vote this week)

[bex88]

It's blind lines. It will be seen to that those at the bottom get the rubbish and work every weekend. The biggest problem with British Airways is the pilots themselves

[overstress]

No later than 20 days for rosters under JSS. bex88, why do you assume that all of us want weekends off? What about commuters, who want to go to ACC, LOS etc so they can back-to-back? They would be rubbish trips for me.

[Enzo999]

I would quite like a weekend off! Most senior bidders seem to alway take the weekends on blind lines you are almost guarnetied to work weekends, that's if your not on reserve which seems to happen every other month.

[bex88]

Why do I say that? In the last year I worked all but two weekends excluding leave and DFW. Look at the lines and you will easily see the pattern. Seniority is a simple system that works but it should not be used for rostering when it directly effects your quality of life so drastically. The disparity is huge and when there is stagnation or if your one of the ex BMI guys then your junior for a long time......for some it's permanent

[wiggy]

Fast forward to 2017 and we now have an ever increasing population of female pilots, as well as a majority of dads who want to be as involved as possible with raising their children. To have them work most weekends and be on reserve every other month on short haul, so that those at the top can have it all, seems extreme.

Warning: Controversial Post...!!

I suffered the above, both on joining (Blindlines for >> 5 years, if it's Sunday it must be Harare.:bored:..) , and again when I changed seats so I understand where you coming from..I also do agree that someone shouldn't be stuck on weekends for seemingly perpetuity....but...(here we go, takes deep breath) I have to point out that the argument that often gets rolled to counter the "unfair" accusation is that the longer served pilots ( male and female) have already done their chunk of weekends/ frequent reserves, both as junior P2s and for some again as junior P1s... Equalising weekend working now could be seen as being unfair to them.

I think some would be willing to "take one for the team" to some extent in the interests of improving the fairness factor because we do recognise times have changed, but any attempts to completely equalise weekend working with no recognition for the weekends the more senior have already worked/"banked" over their careers is going to encounter push back. It's certainly going to be interesting to see how BALPA/BA start manipulating the inhibitors tied to that aspect of bidding when JSS arrives

IMHO I'd also say the ability to completely avoid weekend working is sometimes overestimated, it's actually not that easy to do it, even when on page One...but I'd agree it can be ***** annoying if you do fly with one of the "I don't work weekends" brigade...

Anyhow if you think it's bad now someone will probably be along any minute to talk about how lucky we are now and tell horror stories about the days when the junior pilots were on permanent reserve....( no, even I'm not that old :ooh:)

Tin hat on, retires to safe distance....

[Dave]

On long haul it can be hard to avoide working weekends even with decent seniority. The length of trips is the factor:

5 days trips, only a trip starting on Monday has a clear weekend, the other 6 days impact the weekend, so only 1/7th of 5 day trips have a clear weekend.

For 4 day trips its 2/7ths that have a clear weekend.

For 3 day trips its 3/7ths..... but... if you did a Mon-Wed trip, its reasonably likely that you'll then be doing another trip starting on Saturday or Sunday thereby impacting that weekend.

Believe me, seniority does not mean you get all your weekends off! If someone says they don't work weekends, they must be top 2-3% of seniority, or part time, or going sick, or exagerating, or very very very lucky.

[wiggy]

If someone says they don't work weekends, they must be top 2-3% of seniority, or part time, or going sick, or exagerating, or very very very lucky.

I'd agree Dave, as you point out you've only got to look at tripline construction to see how hard it is to consistently avoid weekends, for all the reasons you mention.

[followthegreens]

but any attempts to completely equalise weekend working with no recognition for the weekends the more senior have already worked/"banked" over their careers is going to encounter push back.

I agree wiggy, there has to be fairness both ways. Which is why I like the concept behind the Virgin system, where you still get rewarded for time done but the juniors don't get hammered all year long. Surely there is a middle ground. But nobody will ever agree where that is :}

[Enzo999]

I would say the problem is slightly more than just weekend work. BA has a very particular ethos and it can be quite depressing as a junior pilot. Basically it seems at times like our only job is to make life better for everyone above you. We get paid less so they get paid more, we get a 34 year pay scale whilst they get 24, our pensions are **** to pay for their massive ones, we work weekends so they don't have to, we do reserve 4 times a year so they don't have to do any, Christmas and school holidays we work so others can spend time with their family etc etc etc. I fully appreciate the "we had to do it argument" but many of us have worked for decades before joining so the idea of being everyone's scivie is a bit hard to swallow.

I knew seniority rules before joining but It been harder for me to accept than I thought, it litterally rules every single aspect of your life at BA and being at the bottom is not great!

All that said it's not going to change and I did kind of know what I was joining, generally it's a decent place to work and I could be worse off.

As for the JSS/Bidline argument I could not care less and I don't suppose many aspiring BA pilots will either.

[wiggy]

I'll conveniently leave pensions and pay out of the debate (the pensions change was wrong but I'll leave it to others to debate the ins and outs of it because I can't remember the details).but otherwise I'm not convinced it's as polarised as you are making out.

I've been very senior as a P2 and am fairly senior as a "P1" - until I went part time even as a top band Long Haul P1 I did Longhaul reserve probably once every 18months (some was down to bidding, due in parts to the points system) certainly still worked and continue to work during school holidays (again in part the points system) and have worked, mainly by choice, the vast majority of my Christmases- and again, there's a points system to prevent someone permanently avoiding working over the festive period. FWIW the aspirational part timers are pretty much forced into weekend working in their Part Time months by virtue of the hotspots, regardless of seniority.

There's a gradient, sure, whether it is too steep or not is rightly up for debate and has been forever, but it has flattened over the years. I can't speak for Short Haul roster patterns but as far as Long Haul goes anyone thinking that BA junior Long Haul pilots just do all the *****ty work while the senior pilots work 7AM to 5 pm, weekdays only, only do beach trips, never do reserve and never work over a holiday is just a bit wide of the mark....

[Tay Cough]

A system a la Virgin where pilots rotate between three priority groups, with seniority applying within each group, seems like a decent compromise (although I don't actually know how well it works).

How about those who want to rotate seniority do it between themselves and leave the ones who don't with the status quo. :mad:

I'm a serial Blindline holder on longhaul and seem to get at least one weekend off a month generally. As I see it, JSS will mean in theory I work a bit harder (difficult to see how and not hit limits) but I'll get more choice over what I do.

[SR71]

I suffered the above, both on joining (Blindlines for >> 5 years, if it's Sunday it must be Harare...) , and again when I changed seats so I understand where you coming from..I also do agree that someone shouldn't be stuck on weekends for seemingly perpetuity....but...(here we go, takes deep breath) I have to point out that the argument that often gets rolled to counter the "unfair" accusation is that the longer served pilots ( male and female) have already done their chunk of weekends/ frequent reserves, both as junior P2s and for some again as junior P1s... Equalising weekend working now could be seen as being unfair to them.

Wiggy,

I've read your posts for a long time as you can see from my join date.

I've not been interested in employment with BA for a LONG time but am always curious as to the state of play in the organisation.

But the argument above is pretty mean-spirited isn't it?

I mean, we never had a washing machine or dishwasher whilst growing up, but I don't wish my children have to learn to use a mangle and a tea-towel because it'd be unfair on me if they didn't.

They're already suffering from some pretty extreme inter-generational inequality which has all kinds of ramifications for me as their predecessor...

[wiggy]

I've not been interested in employment with BA for a LONG time but am always curious as to the state of play in the organisation.


Well first point I would would be that the claims that:

Basically it seems at times like our only job is to make life better for everyone above you..... the idea of being everyone's scivie is a bit hard to swallow.

Don't really accurately portray the state of play. I've no doubt that's what the poster feels but they are in for a shock if they think that this is all down to the nasty b**** above them and as they move up the senority system they are suddenly going to be free of weekend/holiday/Christmas working. I never escaped, even when being almost top of the P2 list ....I know it can be extreme at the bottom but as Tay Cough has pointed out it is possible to get a weekend a month off as a Blindline holder, even when quite senior I've been on runs of no weekeds off for months, sometimes fortunate/lucky to get two clear weekends off in a month...but usually it was just the one.


the argument above is pretty mean-spirited isn't it?

Possibly OTOH how do you think this would go down."Hey honey, you know all those weekends/holidays/school plays I missed in the past? Well what do you think about me doing more weekend/holiday working from now on so that the junior guys don't have to do as much" .................

I mean, we never had a washing machine or dishwasher whilst growing up, but I don't wish my children have to learn to use a mangle and a tea-towel because it'd be unfair on me if they didn't.

Not really the same situation though is it, since no there's real limit on the supply of domestic appliances - everybody can have one. It would be great if nobody had to do weekend working but somebody has got to do it ( and I'll reiterate despite previous comments the senior pilots do weekend work - some actually by choice), and I'll happily state again that outside the top 1-2% the seniority lists are not as polarised when it comes to weekends at work as some seem to think.

Edit to add, Long Haul POV: Senior or junior anyone working full time at BA is increasingly up against it when it comes to getting real solid control of time off and lifestyle control...the final assignment process is no respector of seniority, you only have to look at the demand for part time working, even from the supposedly blessed senior pilots, to see that the case. Personally I only got some degree of control when the kids were at school by going part time, but these days now they've grown up I don't care that much whether I'm working over a weekend or not, I certainly don't avoid weekend working. I do tend to like Christmas trips so i don't avoid those either and have spent the vast majority of the last 25+ Christmases "out", and I know for certain I'm not the only senior pilot who thinks the same. TBH I get slightly grumpy when I see claims that the seniors simply don't work anti social days/hours and dump it all onto the junior pilots...FWIW If do have to choose work/lines I tend look at destinations ...each to their own, but I know some think even having that degree of choice is "unfair".

[SR71]

Possibly OTOH how do you think this would go down."Hey honey, you know all those weekends/holidays/school plays I missed in the past? Well what do you think about me doing more weekend/holiday working from now on so that the junior guys don't have to do as much" .................

So why wouldn't the argument that it is unfair that new kids on the block get a 34 Year PP deal whereas the older kids get a 24 Year PP deal get any traction? What is good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

I've got some sympathy for Grandfather Rights type arguments in certain instances but I'm not sure this is one of them. If it is, it seems hypocritical for recompense not to be equivalent...

In my Company the difference between getting a Command after 2 years (a substantial number of our senior Captains did) and getting your Command after 12 years (the present running average) over a 20 year career is a difference of almost £600K in career earnings. If you dilute the pay scale in the interim, the figure presumably increases beyond that.

In addition, you can easily calculate the added benefit of money in your hand now compared to 15 years time, which allows you to save on mortgage interest etc etc This figure is also significant.

As posters here have already alluded to, the demographic of your average candidate joining BA has changed. These people tend to be experienced pilots with responsibilities commensurate with that experience and with their age, and are therefore less inclined and/or possibly genuinely less able to deal with the intra-organisational unfairness.

Whether or not there is enough critical mass behind this sentiment to get things changed will be interesting to see....

[Superpilot]

Pardon my unqualified intrusion. I'm interested in this. If we do some maths involving the number of trips covering a weekend and the number of available pilots (FO, Captain separately) for that fleet, what would the result look like over a period of let's say 3 months? How many weekends would the "average" pilot be working? I agree, it would be a complex calculation factoring in length of trip/leave/sickness/training but I would say something like a third would be reasonable if it was to be averaged out? (After all, the weekend is only 2 out 7 days long).

[wiggy]

As posters here have already alluded to, the demographic of your average candidate joining BA has changed.

Errr - well I'd agree it changed in about 1988 or 89, but since then, not much.

There were experienced ex-Forces DEPS and experienced other airline DEPS joining BA in vast numbers from the very late eighties onwards, as were the Prestwick cadets ( equivalent of the FPPS), so there's nothing new about the demography of the more recent recruits. I can promise you BA and some soon others, especially in BALPA, found out those DEPs needed no lessons on how to be "less inclined and/or possibly genuinely less able to deal with the intra-organisational unfairness."......it wasn't long before the term "Whinging Wing Commanders" was coined.

As for the more general stuff:

Change in Payscales/pensions - I'd agree it was wrong.

The current Senority gradient and specifically weekends: - we're obviously at an impasse. Over the years we've all worked lots of them, kids at home or not. 2 out of every 7 days are weekend days, the Longhaul program doesn't reduce at weekends and being blunt somebody still has to work them, I don't think every weekend for months on end (and I have done that) is fair but despite the claims the vast majority of pilots, even those quite/very senior don't or can't avoid weekend working.

Leave, Christmas, Reserve - there's at least an an element of fairness/flattening of a pure seniority gradient built in by virtue of the various points systems.

Anyhow as far as roster patterns and weekends are concerned talk about how it works under Bidline is all a bit moot and it will be interesting to see how fair JSS is.

[thewisealderman]

Same old same old, junior pilots moaning about their lot. Life isn't fair get over it. if you want weekends off and want your career to progress based on something other than a number then work in an office or something.

[tommytailwind]

Very interesting reading indeed. Wiggy as ever presents a very balanced and fair argument.

Chaps and chapesses - it's simple. If you don't think something is 'fair' then try and change it. If you can't change it, change your expectations. I joined BA in full knowledge of the conditions and never considered it unfair. It's just the way it is. I didn't like a number of things but never was it 'unfair' - so I left and have no regrets or complaints whatsoever. BA is a business and is doing its best to perform strongly in a challenging competitive environment and I wish it all the very best.

No one is forced to join BA or indeed forced to stay if unhappy. Complaining things are unfair is somewhat naive I feel. It's a seniority based system and you have to take the rough with the smooth if you're junior!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Same old same old, junior pilots moaning about their lot. Life isn't fair get over it. if you want weekends off and want your career to progress based on something other than a number then work in an office or something.

What a delight you must be to fly with! :hmm:

[overstress]

He has a point though.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

No he doesn't.

And to be summed up in such a way shows a very clear lack of understanding of what's going on at the bottom. This isn't a bunch of children whinging about their pocket money. It's real guys and girls with real families trying to make it work. I don't wish to sound melodramatic but some people really don't get it and "I'm alright jack" isn't a pleasant way to go through life.

[akindofmagic]

Same old same old, junior pilots moaning about their lot. Life isn't fair get over it. if you want weekends off and want your career to progress based on something other than a number then work in an office or something.

Just about sums up what's wrong with the pilot profession really. Progression based purely on numbers, no chance to move on because you're trapped by "seniority", those at the top who are alright, Jack. What a bizarre and depressing industry this really is.

[wiggy]

You do realise you're not the first generation of "guys and girls with real families" to have gone through this (regardless of whether "this" is right or wrong), so please do at least credit some of us with the ability to understand " what's going on at the bottom" ...

Out of interest and for the sake of debate, since a lot of this recent argument has been about weekends can I ask what ratio of "weekends worked" to "weekends not worked" over a year would you find acceptable?

( By "weekend not worked" I mean neither the Saturday or the Sunday containing any duty period or element thereof)

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Absolutely I understand that struggling at the bottom is nothing especially new. However, I would argue that the decline in T's and C's in recent times has been sharper than ever and has meant that the current struggle is somewhat different to previous times.

I'm not referring to weekends off in my comments. Being a junior chap myself, I joined BA whole heartedly accepting that for the first few years working weekends, zero or very little roster control and working xmas was the norm. Anyone walking into such a large and complex seniority system has to either make peace with this concept or spend their first few years miserable trying to fight something they can't change. That being the case, I work the vast majority of weekends and personally don't have a big issue with it because I accept my place in the system. Sadly, the other recent changes have made life at the bottom tougher than ever both financially and lifestyle wise. Reserve every other month is not much fun I can tell you!

[wiggy]

However, I would argue that the decline in T's and C's in recent times has been sharper than ever and has meant that the current struggle is somewhat different to previous times.

Fair point.

I think financially some of the recent changes, not just the PP change, but the agreement back step on variable pay wasn't the cleverest move ever made and I don't have a solution to that.

As for lifestyle, I think there are issues other than senority that have worked against folk here ( dare I risk mentioning EASA in shorthaul?) certainly the demand for Part Time Working (PTW) would perhaps indicate that rostering is not a bed of roses, even at quite senior level. I found PTWing was the only way I got reasonable element of control back for at least some of the time, but I can understand why for financial reasons that is not an option for the more junior.

[Jumbo2]

I find it interesting to read that most of the posters arguing about the suposingly unfairness of the seniority system in the previous posts are direct entry pilots who joined straight onto longhaul.

I would argue the seniority system would be the only fair system to allow pilots to be recruited directly onto Longhaul without disadvantaging the shorthaul pilots who would love to go longhaul but who are still in their engagement freeze. With the current system an unfrozen shorthaul pilot who has done the 5 years of hard labour and who gets released onto longhaul would be more senior to anybody who joined after him directly onto his/her new longhaul fleet resulting in a higher roster satisfaction.

The above posters complaining about the unfairness of the seniority factor in the current rostering system could have joined Shorthaul and would have been around 30% fleet seniority within 3 years of joining. (And before there is the feeling of entitlement of going direct entry longhaul because you make the hour requirements to go LH, on my SH joining course a few years back the most inexperienced pilot had twice the minimum hour requirement to go direct entry longhaul)

[wiggy]

Please don't confuse the issue by coming up with examples of situations in BA where seniority doesn't determine absolutely everything....;)

[thewisealderman]

I was at the bottom for 5 years joining after 9/11 mate, so I know what life is like down there, did I moan about working every weekend or wonder why the guy next to me was about to take 100k pa pension? Or the general unfaireness of seniority? No. prob because I have stacked shelves before and loaded pallets in a stinking hot factory and seen life outside the BA bubble. A lot of new guys not all have had an easy life before flying and are used to getting what they want including bank of daddy giving them 100k to go get a job. That's what is really wrong with this profession. It's like those pay as you go formula one drivers, driving conditions down for the rest.
Stop acting like my kids when they don't get what they want.

[thewisealderman]

Just realised I posted this on a Saturday while at home! How insensitive of me.

[Enzo999]

You do realise you're not the first generation of "guys and girls with real families" to have gone through this (regardless of whether "this" is right or wrong), so please do at least credit some of us with the ability to understand " what's going on at the bottom" ...

Out of interest and for the sake of debate, since a lot of this recent argument has been about weekends can I ask what ratio of "weekends worked" to "weekends not worked" over a year would you find acceptable?

( By "weekend not worked" I mean neither the Saturday or the Sunday containing any duty period or element thereof)

I imangine your pension dulls the pain of having to "suffer" at the bottom, as did your P24 scale. We and the whole profession were sold down the river by you guys and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous. Your right this argument has been raging for generations but we are perhaps the first that don't feel like we have much to work for! I will never see top scale and my pension at best will a fraction of the NAPS. And all this to do the same job in a more expensive world, you must see why it's frustrating.

[wiggy]

We and the whole profession were sold down the river by you guys

Yes I do see why it's frustrating but have to ask - by "you" in the above statement do you mean every single pilot at BA at the time who had a vote on the matter, or just those who negotiated the proposal that was put to the vote and those that voted for it?...

[Mister Geezer]

Shouldn't ones discontent be directed towards the union and your colleagues who represent it?

If you feel you have been 'sold down the river' by your senior peers, then consider who provided the boat for this to happen?

BTW - I am not in BA before anyone asks.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

My 2 penneth for what it's worth.

I have now been in BA for just over 5 years and I am now on a long haul only fleet about 25% up from the bottom on my seniority list. The first couple of years with reserve were hard but you have to play the system the best you can.

I.e. Bid for a reserve block over a monthly boundary ( Jan into early Feb) you then get March off then bid late Apr into May etc. This way you will only do 4 reserves a year but you will also get 4 extra weeks off as well as the standard 6 weeks everyone else gets. Strategic bidding for your leave and duty free weeks may also mean several months free of reserve.

Also bid for reserve over Christmas thereby getting reserve points and Christmas points together with little chance of actually working Christmas Day.

I am now in trip line territory but usually only get something between my 20th and 30th choice. I try and get some weekends off and usually get about 50%, however this might be a Sat off one week and a Sun off the next. Of the 50% that I do work some of them will usually be an early finish on the Sat morning or a late/evening start on the Sun.

What I do enjoy though is some weekdays off to go to school plays, sports days, open evenings and take my son to swimming and help at his scouts etc which I couldn't do in a Monday to Friday 9-5 job.

Are there some crap bits? Yes certainly. BARP isn't great but a lot better than I got with Jet 2. I will never get to the top of pay point 34 even working to 65 but then I wouldn't have got to pay point 24 when you had to retire at 55. I am however getting paid a lot more than I ever did in the RAF with no chance of being send to PSAB or Bastion.

Swapping is very flexible so if you can't get a weekend off take your family with you. I recently did a sector swap to extend a Japan trip over half term so took my family to Tokyo and did the sights and Disney Sea for about £600. On short haul took the family on city breaks to Edinburgh and Athens etc.

BA is what it is and it is unlikely to change much for the better. I am enjoying it by taking full advantage of what is available. If you really hate it you need to move on. You're born and then you die, you need to enjoy the bit in the middle or what's the point,

Regards

[HidekiTojo]

Absolutely I understand that struggling at the bottom is nothing especially new. However, I would argue that the decline in T's and C's in recent times has been sharper than ever and has meant that the current struggle is somewhat different to previous times.

I'm not referring to weekends off in my comments. Being a junior chap myself, I joined BA whole heartedly accepting that for the first few years working weekends, zero or very little roster control and working xmas was the norm. Anyone walking into such a large and complex seniority system has to either make peace with this concept or spend their first few years miserable trying to fight something they can't change. That being the case, I work the vast majority of weekends and personally don't have a big issue with it because I accept my place in the system. Sadly, the other recent changes have made life at the bottom tougher than ever both financially and lifestyle wise. Reserve every other month is not much fun I can tell you!

Go back to Ryanair then.

[GS-Alpha]

The comments made by some of the newer BA pilots on here are pretty good examples of the younger generation today I think. It is a generation of the "I not only want it all now, but I deserve it and am entitled to it!" You seem to think you have somehow been sold down the river by the more senior pilots. Are you talking about pensions? Have you heard of APS? Most of the more senior pilots in BA are merely on NAPS. Presumably they got sold down the river by their more senior colleagues at some point? Yet for you guys this is something new that is just happening to you? Have you ever heard of guys doing just 500 hours flying a year? The senior guys aren't doing that now. (In fact they are likely doing considerably more than you if you are doing reserve every other month). But they never got sold down the river - it is just you guys joining now. You really do sound like teenagers who believe that their parents were never teenagers and just don't know what it is like. I recommend you try reflecting on the career you have, and how lucky you are to have it. Imagine being Mixed Fleet cabin crew as opposed to their WW or Eurofleet colleagues! You're so lucky to have the terms and conditions you currently have, and I guarantee they will be half what they are now by the time you retire.

Yes, it is true that BA pilots have always voted the way their union has recommended. I and many others, have almost always voted against that recommendation. It is why I have finally left BALPA, but if you have a problem with any of the terms and conditions changes of the past decade or two, why don't you take it up with BA or BALPA? I think it is highly unfair to blame your collegaues for simply majority voting the way their union recommended.

[thewisealderman]

You summed it up nicely there.

[Right Engine]

You summed it up poorly there.

[Enzo999]

What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!

[Tay Cough]

if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it.

Because BA think that's what you're worth - and the fact that people are still applying shows the market is seemingly prepared to accept it.

I don't think you'll find a single current BA pilot who likes that as it inevitably puts pressure on those on better rates.

Let me paraphrase your statement and return it to you.

If you can give me one articulate reason as to how current "A" scalers could retain those rates for all future joiners, then I would be interested to hear it.

[akindofmagic]

I recommend you try reflecting on the career you have, and how lucky you are to have it.

Again, in a nutshell, a big part of what's wrong with this industry. Sounds very "management" to me: you should be bloody grateful that we have deigned to give you a job, so shut up and row harder.

As long as people are prepared to accept B, C and D (and presumably E, F and G) scale packages, Ts&Cs are only going to go one way. Seniority is a big part of the problem: it traps people and prevents them from efficiently taking their skills elsewhere, thereby applying downwards pressure on Ts&Cs. From a management perspective, why would they offer improved conditions, or even keep conditions the same if: a) people will continue to apply regardless, and b) nobody will leave anyway because they're trapped by seniority?