BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[gatbusdriver]

Hey wiggy,

Must be getting on a bit now........you've told us that story already!

[eaglesnest1972]

Anyone got any news from BA? (for those who applied).
Deadline is approaching.

[kirungi1]

Let us slow down things a bit and analyse #545 carefully. There is more than meets the eye in that post. You have to be a lateral thinker to arrive at wiggy's vantage point. Call it his wisdom for such great posts but I would accept and agree that it is this guy's dunamis at play.

Thanks wiggy :)

[Harry palmer]

Any chances for us Non Airbus Rated civilians?

[bex88]

I don't speak for the company but with the new fleets coming on line and the large training demand on the airbus fleet I think they will want to minimise the strain on the training resource. Hence the type rating requirement. Perhaps if pilots can't be found requirements will relax further

[wiggy]

Hey wiggy,

Must be getting on a bit now........you've told us that story already!

Yeah sorry, I know it doesn't bring anything to the debate but I'm just getting a bit tired of some who seem to see Freemason's in every sim /interview/every interaction they've had with "big bad BA".......

You'd almost think they were trying to put folks off applying ;)

[BOAC]

Yeah sorry, I know it doesn't bring anything to the debate - I think you missed the humour there?
Hey wiggy,

Must be getting on a bit now........you've told us that story already!

We'll put it down to old age.............

[Landflap]

Oh leave him alone. He's Irish...........................to be sure to be sure !

[777X]

Are there people out there seriously holding out for the opportunity to enter the hold pool a third time?

I heard of non-type rated folk last time who got hired with no more than a day or so in the hold pool. When it comes to recruitment it definitely helps to know people inside...

[Megaton]

When it comes to recruitment it definitely helps to know people inside..

That is absolute nonsense. Good mate of mine with absolutely impeccable background and type-rated didn't get in first time despite having met all the right people. He fluffed the interview so was rejected. Two/three years later he re-applied and passed.

There are many accusations you can level at BA recruitment but they are painfully fair.

[RHS]

Widebody must be tough being a boeing guy right now. Almost as bad as having a turboprop type rating! ;)

Let's hope for non TR soon.

[Flyer2007]

Either way, BA opening recruitment for Airbus rated Pilots with 500hrs, then 200hrs and now non rated Military experience is positive news. Here's hoping non rated recruitment isn't too far off. There are so many skilled and experienced Pilots at the likes of Flybe, Loganair and Eastern Airways that have been subject to limited opportunities in recent years. Here's hoping a wide range of people are able to apply should non rated recruitment open.

Does anyone have an idea why the 500hrs requirement was lowered? Less applications than expected, or those that did not up to the BA standard?

[Superpilot]

I am yet to hear of a single person in my extended circle of friends/friends of friends who has made it (I'm talking in the region of 15 candidates). Most failed at the initial assessment stage (like me). BA are being fussy gits as usual, no wonder they had to extend the net! Good opportunity for others though.

[Megaton]

BA has happily soaked up pilots from the likes of FlyBE in the past and their entrance minimums drift up and down according to supply and demand. It is likely that BA will be less attractive to a senior EasyJet FO these days who is perhaps not far from promotion so expect the entrance requirements to drop as experienced FOs choose to stay where they are.

[Megaton]

Yet we still have Easyjet captains joining the bottoms of our list?



Perhaps, but the last ex-EasyJet captain I spoke to wasn't sure he'd made the right choice and can't say I blame him.

[bex88]

I person I know was told he was successful and he politely turned it down to stay as a orange SFO. In short BA has competition from other airlines who offer better pay due to shorter times to command. It's no longer the clear cut decision it once was

[eaglesnest1972]

Seriously? :ooh:
I thought BA was the dream of every single UK pilot, i am serious.
It is still for me, and i am not British.
Anyone got any reply from BA? Today is the last day to apply for DEP (rated).

[bringbackthe80s]

No point in comparing which airline is better than which, but just as a thought, if a skipper at the orange airline (especially if based in France/Italy) applied to join as FO at the bottom of the BA short haul seniority list, then it would definetly make me wonder...
no drama though, plenty of excellent pilots will que. it's all good

[kirungi1]

if a skipper at the orange airline (especially if based in France/Italy) applied to join as FO at the bottom of the BA short haul seniority list, then it would definetly make me wonder...

There is potential for variety/routes/fleet et la after 5+years on short haul unto LH with BA which might not be the case with the Orange. Some people will challenge limits of their ability while following their passion. BA provides that environment that enables individuals and groups to flourish and thrive time and time again. It's this proven fact that 'plenty of excellent pilots will que' for.
Would the Orange vouch for this fact? It has to stand that test of time.

eaglesnest1972, we are on the same list:ok:

[eaglesnest1972]

Yes mate, wish you good luck:ok:

[speedrestriction]

Some people will challenge limits of their ability while following their passion. BA provides that environment that enables individuals and groups to flourish and thrive time and time again.

Have I just fallen into a parallel dimension of bull****? Wise up, it's a job you do so you can pay your bills, buy a car, take the missus on a nice holiday and put the kids through school. It makes naff all difference what colour the tail is painted. It's not like you are making some Zen-like spiritual life choice. I'll say again because it bears repeating: it's just a job!

[R T Jones]

Yep have to agree with whats written here regarding it not being quite the cut/dry decision of easy vs BA it perhaps once was. I'm an SFO at ezy and didn't apply for BA this time round, friends inside BA speak of the changes its going through. If you want a career in the UK, more specifically London, BA probably still has the edge. No one can think 5 earlies at LGW with easy is doable for 30 years. It appears BA is the more sustainable of the two over the long term. If you want to fly long haul in the UK its BA or VS. Personally I like being home at night, an unused standby is a day at home. Again, easy is probably more appealing if you are at a base where your friends and family are near by. The name of the side means very little, a job they both are, with reasonably secure futures is what I am grateful for at the moment. There is more to life than flying!

[INeedTheFull90]

If I were able to commit to London then it would be a no brainer. It would be BA. Whilst you may earn more at EZY as you'll get a command quicker, you'll be lucky to see 50 in any degree of good health. The pay is good, the variety of flying is good, it is very stable. But 5 four sector days on the bounce is not sustainable, nor are the 02:00 beach flight finishes several days in a row. Yes BA work hard too, but it has to more sustainable. Anyone 30 or under and able to commit to London should really consider it.

[eaglesnest1972]

I am currently flying like that in one of the worst place on earth, underpaid and with ridicoulous T&C's.
Given all that, for pilots in my same situation, entering BA would be like winning the lottery.
I would gladly fly 5x4 for the rest of my career (joking), for a solid and serious Company, in a civilized country and with fair and legal T&C's.
This is me of course:p

[kirungi1]

Have I just fallen into a parallel dimension of bull****? Wise up, it's a job you do so you can pay your bills, buy a car, take the missus on a nice holiday and put the kids through school.

Without any doubt, there are many pilots at BA whose motivation to fly isn't money or any of those things you find top of your priority. I appreciate that money is important but for them it's about something different that pitches their flying ability with BA. At this point it ceases to be neither a job nor a career but a passion. This is who they actually are! It's called self realisation or self actualisation. It's this passion that motivates them to challenge their roofs; the desire and absolute commitment to 'to fly to serve' if you like ;). You will be surprised how much people can do when they are driven by love.

But yeah, I accept your motivation and point of view but I do not agree.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Just to add a bit of reality to this. I have been in ezy not far off a decade and I have yet to do 5 x 4 sectors in a row. No idea if this will change with the wonderful EASA FTL though. Safety first and all.

[bex88]

Kirungi1.......there certainly are people who are exceptional within BA and must be motivated by more than money but OMG what a load of drivel. You must not be on the airbus fleet but a career at waterside would be just up your street. If they wanted to challenge their flying ability they would not be flying airliners.

[gatbusdriver]

Bovine excrement comes to mind.

If you want to challenge your roof..........go fly in Botswana, Yellowknife, fly biz jets without the comfort of the support network that BA provides. Flying big jets on a scheduled route network?........don't think so.

Good luck with the application though, if it's what you want I wish you all the best.

[Doug E Style]

Yeah, pass the sick bucket...

[FANS]

BA management wouldn't be doing their job if BA was still the head and shoulders choice.

I think BA T&Cs will decrease in real terms for new joiners (as I do EZY).

Equally, the culture of staying until grave needs to move, as it gets expensive but this needs a full upheaval of bidline which is a battle for another year.

[bex88]

Spot on FANS.

The 34 point pay scale has addressed the issue to some extent as has part time working. The problem is the longer you have been in the easier it becomes. Why would you leave if your 50% on the top scale, 747 fleet? Pick where you want to go and near as dam it when. Then on your few trips a month take the wife with you on one and the girlfriend on the other :E

The system needs to be modernised then maybe 20-30 odd balls would not be fighting to stay beyond 65 :ugh:

[Callsign Kilo]

Without any doubt, there are many pilots at BA whose motivation to fly isn't they actually are! It's called self realisation or self actualisation. It's this passion that motivates them to challenge their roofs; the desire and absolute commitment to 'to fly to serve' if you like . You will be surprised how much people can do when they are driven by love.

There might well be but I'll add to what bex88 and FANS might be hinting towards here. I remember waiting on the staff bus outside the Jury's at Heathrow, readying myself for a blast in the 744 sim for DEP entry. I met a 14 year part time long haul SFO. He lived in a far off dimension, no real clue about the 'real' airline world dominated by RyanJet and EasyAir. Told me he never actually liked the job and it was a toss up between being a doctor and a pilot, but as BA were footing the bill he got into the 'flying lark.' Said he could cope with the part time and the odd trip to Sydney. Had zero interest in command, on any fleet at any stage.

[kirungi1]

bex88, GBD and Callsign Kilo, thanks all for your insights and corrections.

I'm sure the Managed Path - F/O for instance, is always going to be competitive and applicants will be contending to fly airliners.
I apologise for the drivel but it's always going to be a question of motivation for some that would generate responses of why fly for BA to a greater extent than how or what to fly in general; otherwise some people would buy their own planes to fly.

Flying airliners in Botswana is a challenge in a different context but it wouldn't be that long to touch the roof; yes different challenges but less strenuous (less traffic, number of days off, weather/visibility... et la)

[Xulu]

Oh Lord Kirungi.

I once sat next to a Captain who said that we, as pilots, were the social elite.... Whilst struggling to do 'the Sun' crossword.

The cadets coming through are not exactly world beaters. Many have their abilities masked by flying an airliner in such a controlled environment, not challenged by it. BA is no different.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My tiny (full time, normal line pilot) cog in the big orange machine amounts to 687hrs 33mins Block hours in the last 12 months over 339 sectors requiring 1,379hrs 40mins Duty hours. Two days sick, standard leave.

I'm doubtless institutionalised after 14 years but talk of unsustainable burn out passes me by.

[eaglesnest1972]

So, today is the day.
Good luck to those who applied:ok:

[FANS]

The cadets don't need to be world beaters. Flying from LHR has many challenges and more frustrations, but you don't need to be able to walk on water in today's machinery.

Therein lies the rub. The days of legacy t and c s can not last and really people are playing for time. The curve is down but BA is still an outstanding option for those in the right circumstances.

[bex88]

Good luck for all today. Hopefully good news for most as we need guys and girls to join us.

My two pence worth......why do you want to leave your current airline? "I don't I am quite happy there"

Why do you want to join BA? "I just can't see myself not getting bored of flying tracksuits to turkey for the next 30 years and I appreciate the opportunities BA offer over a career"

And tell me what is your ultimate goal if you were to join BA? "To balance a successful and progressive career with a happy marriage". To which the interviewing pilot smiles, laughed and said yes yes divorce is expensive I can tell you.

How would you describe yourself? "Recklessly honest"

Worked for me so BA sometimes appreciate straight to the point without the equine poop.

[Tay Cough]

WWW,

A full-time LHR shorthaul pilot will do broadly the same number of hours as you indicate (the average is slightly more in fact) but with annual duty time approaching 2000 hours, usually spent hanging around in a windowless coffee bar in the bowels of T5 waiting for your next aircraft (fixed links are rare).

Personally, it's all the hanging around and feet dragging which gets to me.....

Edit: If you join today, you will get a five year shorthaul freeze. What this does not mean is that you can move to longhaul after five years. What it means is that you will have a valid bid which will be actioned subject to vacancies and your seniority. Currently, you will have to wait around seven years for your seniority to allow a move.

[no sponsor]

Personally, I wish we could offer all the Monarch chaps and chappets places. I don't think we will be short this time around.

BA for all its faults (and there are a few) is still far superior than the crappy outfit I used to fly for.

[eaglesnest1972]

Just noticed that deadline for DEP (rated) has been postponed...
10th of september now...
Guess all applications received so far do not satisfy BA recruiters:cool:
Or too few applications...
Any insight from current BA fellow pilots?

[wiggy]

Any insight

At the risk of repeating myself.... :\

Nothing official, but it's rumoured Flight Ops are under the cosh from a workload POV at the moment, maybe it' something to do with that.

(presses "Submit Reply" once, and waits.........):\

[kirungi1]

The DailyMail has some fine words for BA. They say history has a tendency of repeating itself ;)

Ryanair is snubbed as budget easyJet edges into list of world's top 10 airlines ... and British Airways steals number one spot | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2739989/Ryanair-snubbed-budget-easyJet-edges-list-world-s-10-airlines-British-Airways-steals-number-one-spot.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks Wiggy:ok:

[ETOPS240]

When Brighton is named number one for restaurants and bars, I think we can safely turn the page on that one.

[kirungi1]

ETOPS240..... depends on what you read out of it. None-the-less, a recognition remains a recognition and I'm sure others wouldn't have turned it down.

I would still stay on the same page!

[Northern Monkey]

WWW

Might I hazard a guess that you don't fly from Gatwick? When I worked for easyjet down there I averaged well over 685 hours a year. Now I'm at BA I'm averaging more like 825 block hours a year on short haul but obviously I do a lot more duty hours than I used to. I haven't met a 320 FO or Captain who's done less than 800 in the last 12 months.

Regardless of how the two airlines are perceived a lot of it will come down to where you are based with easyJet. That's what makes the comparison more complicated than certain people would like.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I concur.

When you factor in mortgage repayments on a regional house compared to a SE house then that's another overlooked aspect assuming you have geographic flexibility.

[mesh]

think deadline extension may provide a few Monarch peeps

[Callsign Kilo]

Good, I hope as many as possible get positions. Horrid to have to go through redundancy

[edward england]

Would any junior FO's on the A320 with BA be kind enough to share :-
1. How many reports on average per month?
2. How many nights down route on average per month?
Are there many junior guys/girls on the A320 living over 90 minutes away from LHR and finding the commute acceptable?

[Stocious]

From a dip sample of 20 random September rosters at the blindline/junior tripline holder (samples taken from only months without leave):

1) Average of 10.2 reports from 20 rosters (range 7-13)
2) Average of 7.05 nights away from base (range 2-9)

Total average days worked : just over 17

[eaglesnest1972]

@Mesh

so you think it will be a "all UK" recruitment from Monarch, Easy and the others?
I really hope they will give a chance to expats also this time:ooh:
Btw, yes, redudancy is simply awful so i hope these guys will fix their situations asap.

[FANS]

www, is your plan 30 years at ezy?

[bex88]

Edward England, Stocious is just about spot on with his figures. There are guys who commute from Norther Ireland etc on the SH fleet but its difficult for them. 90 minutes is ok just, but in my view anything over an hour is a real pain in the ass. If you are coming from the north the M25, M1, M40 can be almost impossible to judge. Many guys block their work together and stay down.

I was living an hour and 20 mins away and it was acceptable but I did eventually move to live within an hour although the commute was not the motivating factor

[Megaton]

I commuted from Glasgow on short haul for five years. It was manageable but not much fun. Also, I was able to pick up 4/5 day tours which kept down the nights at Heathrow. The real pains are disruption and reserve but there are plenty of acceptable b & bs near LHR for £30 a night.

[bringbackthe80s]

FANS just to give you perspective, there is and will eventually be NO difference between any short haul operation in Europe in terms of fatigue/amount of hours flown etc..we are talking 830 (eighthundredandthirty!) hours flown in a year at a major as of 2014, this would have been unthinkable 10 years ago or even less. Long haul will eventually have the same problem.

So to ask if you are planning to stay in this or that company for x amount of years does not indicate much me thinks.

The truth is, if tiredness/fatigue is a factor for you (which it is for most of us flying for the airlines), then join the company with the best part time options/pay, not a traditional 5 days trips short haul operation, possibly commuting from the middle of the countryside.

Sorry for OT

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

FANS

www, is your plan 30 years at ezy?


Half way there my friend. Options for 4 On 4 Off rosters being in the pipeline should help reduce fatigue and income tax issues soon. Everywhere else seems to have equal drawbacks and there's extra comfort being in the big orange lifeboat (70% fleet owned outright, ton of cash at hand and grew profits every year through horrendous recession).

I was told yesterday about a young chap who left to BA about five years ago when he must have been mid to late 20's. On the 380 fleet now he has worked out his numbers mean he is unlikely to ever get a command on that fleet. That surprised me a bit.

[Megaton]

I was told yesterday about a young chap who left to BA about five years ago when he must have been mid to late 20's. On the 380 fleet now he has worked out his numbers mean he is unlikely to ever get a command on that fleet.

Sounds like a distortion. If he joined in mid to late 20s, he'd have over 35 years in the company and would easily secure a long haul command.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That was my assumption. Is the 380 fleet particularly senior though?

I have also heard speculation this week that the outcome of the short haul review might make shorthaul less agreeable. As a consequence there may be surge in shorthaul Captains bidding to transfer to longhaul RHS. Thus drastically increasing the number of years a new joiner might expect to be 'stuck' on shorthaul.

Its certainly a topic of debate amongst the FO community out here in the swamp.

[zzz]

No WWW, in fact the 380 is pretty unpopular. It has a limited number of routes, is seen to be quite a lot of hassle and a number of people have failed or removed themselves from the type rating course.

As for the shorthaul review. It's still up in the air at the moment. Rumours vary from total takeover of shorthaul flying (in the long term) by Veuling to minor changes to our terms and conditions. One thing is for certain, BA shorthaul is not a happy place to be at the moment and I expect there will be some skippers bidding back to the right hand seat of long haul.

[eaglesnest1972]

DEP (rated) applications deadline postponed to the 18 september now...:ooh:

Busy times at BA:cool:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

zzz - I didn't think the 380 would be really senior. Probably an exaggerated piece of gossip then.

[wiggy]

I didn't think the 380 would be really senior. Probably an exaggerated piece of gossip then.


Yes it is, zzz has described the situation/fleet very well ( and very tactfully :ok:).

[NigelOnDraft]

I was told yesterday about a young chap who left to BA about five years ago when he must have been mid to late 20's. On the 380 fleet now he has worked out his numbers mean he is unlikely to ever get a command on that fleet. That surprised me a bitSounds like a distortion. If he joined in mid to late 20s, he'd have over 35 years in the company and would easily secure a long haul command. I have also heard speculation this week that the outcome of the short haul review might make shorthaul less agreeable. As a consequence there may be surge in shorthaul Captains bidding to transfer to longhaul RHS. Thus drastically increasing the number of years a new joiner might expect to be 'stuck' on shorthaul.

Its certainly a topic of debate amongst the FO community out here in the swamp. The line of thought may be that BA SH days are numbered? BA currently has ~3600 pilots, of which approx 1500 are SH. Let's say the scenario happens where Vueling grows as per the "fear" and takes over BA SH @ LHR/LGW. Not overnight, but just gradually - much as MF do for CC. The new BA LH pilot workforce of ~2000 will comprise the absorbed SH pilots, all in the line for Command ahead of recent joiners.

I can only stress the above is one scenario, based on nothing in particular - better (or worse) scenarios are possible. But a timely BA command, and particularly a BA LH command rely on SH remaining on the BA pilot list...

[edward england]

Stocious, Bex88, Megaton
Thanks, that's great.

[zzz]

Ecamsurprise, I don't blame you. Your airline seems to be one with a future; if the doommongerers are correct, mine isn't.:uhoh:

[Stocious]

(Is that why you never wave at us? )

We never wave at you because you're always on a remote stand at the other end of the airfield! ;)

[Widebdy]

I think EZY is great and can understand why many prefer to stay and take their much quicker commands. However I do wonder about EZY after their CEO departs, she has a vision and communicating with BALPA and staff has been part of that vision. There are still many contracts, bases and countries at EZY and I do wonder if the conditions will stand the test of a CEO with a different methods - the same methods observed at some of the other loco carriers.

Also interested to hear more from you BA pilots who speak about vueling. What do you envisage? Vuelings product is the opposite end of the spectrum is it not? A different customer base even?

[Wirbelsturm]

and then just look away in disgust is a little bit over the top

Bit harsh! Never done that, a couple of very good friends of mine are skippers for Ezy down at Gatters. :ok:

Personally I always wave to say hello to fellow professionals.

:)

[wiggy]

Also interested to hear more from you BA pilots who speak about vueling. What do you envisage? Vuelings product is the opposite end of the spectrum is it not? A different customer base even?

Until about a decade ago some in BA thought the same about all the LoCos, and I think there was a very dangerous assumption made by some in the company that BA's superior customer service ( and I feel I need to emphasise this: ;))meant that our natural customer base would always tend to fly with us. Then the likes of Easyjet started to encroach on the likes of LGW. From conversations I have had and from what I have seen if timings and costs fit then BA's "natural" customers, yes even business class passengers, will certainly fly with the LoCos, and yes, even if they are connecting to/from a BA Longhaul flight...


At the end of the day I'm sure the accountants at IAG have looked at the costs of operating Vueling into LHR vs BA will have come up with a long term plan.....and unfortunately it probably won't involve BA shorthaul flight crew remaining on their current T&Cs.

All IMHO of course.

[GS-Alpha]

A little off thread I'll grant you, but in my opinion BALPA are running scared of IAG due to what happened with Openskies. Back then, they were absolutely certain of their legal stance and then all of a sudden it was proven to be wrong. The whole idea that Veulling or any other IAG owned company could just come in and replace BA shorthaul is contrary to the spirit of UK employment law, however BALPA are petrified that BA would find a way. As a result, they agree to anything and everything. It is the same with the current rostering farce.

Would I join BA if I was starting over? I'd certainly consider the job as a stepping stone, but there is no way I'd plan to stay for the long term. I know pp17 SFOs with interviews elsewhere. Traditionally they'd be well and truly locked into the company for the duration by that stage.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Can I just enquire....F/Os I fly with at work that have applied recently tell me that the job offer specifies that you can fly for another affiliated airline within the group (I.e Vueling) if so required by BA. Is this correct for current F/Os on the bus fleet?? Seems unlikely.

[wiggy]

Ummm, very very unlikely indeed, AFAIK there's absolutely no mechanism in the current IAG structure that would allow that so I wonder where they (the applicants) got the idea from - perhaps they don't understand how the relationship between IAG and BA works (or doesn't)?

The various current adverts for DEPs/Managed Path I have seen simply mention the opportunity of moving to other British Airways fleets at some point - and that's nothing new.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

Thanks for the clarification, it didn't sound right to me at all but more than one said the same thing, thought I'd ask. Cheers Wiggy.

[NigelOnDraft]

The whole idea that Veulling or any other IAG owned company could just come in and replace BA shorthaul is contrary to the spirit of UK employment law, however BALPA are petrified that BA would find a wayI don't think BALPA are petrified that "BA would"... Why would BA (whatever "BA" is??) give it's work away?

BALPA may well be concerned that IAG might transfer the work to Vueling, as is their right. Not sure UK employment law would have anything to do with it?

[wiggy]

WBV

If you happen to find out there's a single "hard" source of the rumour could you let me know, by PM if necessary :oh:?

I know some folks who would be very interested if the story was being put out by someone in BA....


NOD

BALPA may well be concerned that IAG might transfer the work to Vueling, as is their right

Agreed, I think a lot of folks still don't understand the whole IAG and BA "thing". BA is just one of several IAG companies, and the Board in Madrid is IMHO quite happy to see their companies competing with each other.....

[NigelOnDraft]

....F/Os I fly with at work that have applied recently tell me that the job offer specifies that you can fly for another affiliated airline within the group (I.e Vueling) if so required by BAWithout anyone prejudicing their application, a scan of the relevant para(s), or just s retype of the text, would be "interesting" :ooh:

[bringbackthe80s]

disregarding paras and texts..do we remember which company new qualified Lufthansa short haul captains fly for?...what does that suggest?

[FANS]

The legal entity is irrelevant, TUPE offers some protection.

That said, if an airline needs to reduce t and C s, there are ways a la monarch.

Focus on short haul is interesting, but lets not pretend longhaul would then stay ok as BOAC!

18 year SFOs looking to leave sounds like music to management.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

NOD,Wiggy, I shall ask around next week when I'm back in and see if I can dig up any more info. Will let you know.

[GS-Alpha]

NoD, sorry yes that last 'BA' should obviously have said 'IAG'. I think my meaning was pretty clear from my suggesting BALPA is scared of IAG. TUPE does indeed offer an awful lot more protection than BALPA has led most BA pilots to believe. Most of what was suggested as a real threat during the BMI talks was from the land of the fairies. All the while that we as a group believe IAG's threat, the terms and conditions of BA pilots is going to plummet, and sadly it appears to be doing so at an exponential rate.

[Eyrebusman]

Has anybody had a reply , calling them for interview yet?

[student88]

Are many people passing the stage 1 assessment day following this second wave of recruitment?

[eaglesnest1972]

Hi mate,

did they call you?
Deadline is 18 september for type rated DEP.
I guess we all must wait until then.

[flybywir]

I hear there is one new computer test from this forum, involving ATC instructions, ECAM actions etc. Can anyone tell more about this test, ie are ATC verbal instructions to be memorised etc? I assume this test doesnt exist somewhere out there in test land for practice? Please PM me or post any further information so I can prepare for this test!

[Bigglez]

From my experience, application sent in on 2nd September, got email with interview request a couple of days later, so I don't know what that means if you haven't heard back yet

[student88]

The new computer test isn't too bad, you just need to thoroughly read the instructions and not loose your cool if the captain takes over. Id rather do that test for an hour vs. 1 minute of PILAPT!

My colleague applied one evening at the end of August for the 3rd September deadline and heard back from BA the next morning.

[binsleepen]

eaglesnest,

I have never heard of BA not replying. read my earlier post for a fuller explanation.

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks mate,

i will keep my fingers crossed till the 18 then:rolleyes:

[StopStart]

I never quite understand the woe and despair people post on these subjects sometimes. As binsleepin said, no matter what you might think of their recruitment procedures, BA always reply to applications. Unlike many other airlines.
Just chill out and let things take their course. :rolleyes:

[binsleepen]

eagles nest,

If you are trying to get into BA I am sure you will have read this whole thread. Go back and check post 310. You can lead a horse to water etc

Regards

[student88]

Does anyone know when the results of the short haul competitiveness review will be announced?

[Smokie]

The Age limit?
What is the age limit for BA?
I know officially they cannot discriminate ......
What is it unofficially, as they used to retire at 55.

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks Been,

i really appreciate mate;)

[Megaton]

Smokie,

I would doubt there is an age limit; I joined at 38 as a DEP with only a few hundred hours, non-rated. Retirement age limit now 65.

[SinBin]

Seem to remember in the last big round of DEP recruitment, there were a couple of guys in their 50s.

[FANS]

For BA, there are advantages in recruiting older as they're not going to be on the highest payscales and stay forever given attrition has been very low. Attrition rates may change however.

[bex88]

Short haul review due to report in september I think. I however have been expecting it for weeks and nothing happens. I now for the life of me can't make out if I have made up this time frame or been told it by others. The emails to soften us up were sent out months ago. Anyone actually know?

[mesh]

Anyone know how long it takes after day before you get yes or no?

[mark_eisner]

After day 1 I had a reply via email the next morning.

[mesh]

If you don't mind saying, was it good or bad news mark, pm me if you want. Just be good to know if the bad or good news goes out first, thanks

[mesh]

tested this week and not heard yet. Anybody had a no or yes from this week yet, wonder how long No takes?

[Enzo999]

I also went for stage one tests on Wednesday, not heard anything either. I know someone who attended Mondays assessment who got a "yes email" the next morning, so I am starting to think no news is not good news!!

[mesh]

Anyone go on Wednesday and have a yes or no?

[runwayedge]

Got an email this morning with a PFO! Oh well!!

[eaglesnest1972]

Sorry to hear mate.
What was your profile?
Thanks.

[runwayedge]

1600 TT with 1000 on the bus.

[eaglesnest1972]

:eek:
too bad!!!
Sorry to hear that...
Good luck mate:ok:

[runwayedge]

Thanks. Best of luck to the others. There will be other opportunities :-)

[MOA]

747-400 campaign (qualified) to start shortly.....

[bex88]

And your source is? I think many in the company would not accept it without a fight

[MOA]

bex

As direct from LC as you can get. Can't comment on internal bid politics..

[wiggy]

bex

I think many in the company would not accept it without a fight

I'm absolutely sure there would be a little "adverse comment" :ooh:, certainly on a certain other forum, but AFAIK there's nothing in any agreement to prevent direct recruitment to Long Haul in certain circumstances - it has happened before.

The trigger would be the Airbus training system becoming full to capacity handling the FPP graduates now joining us (blimey they look young :uhoh:) ..and the imminent tranche of DEPs, leaving no flex to allow the additional training caused by aspirational movements off Short Haul on to Long Haul. At that point any short fall in Long Haul manning has to be filled by direct recruitment onto those Fleets.

Interesting that despite the 777 running a bit tight the rumour concerns recruiting into a fleet that is meant to be running down, albeit very slowly.

[Tay Cough]

It isn't running down that much. The plan is around forty airframes for another decade.

[bylgw]

running down it might be, but there are also lots of rats deserting the ship :)

[bex88]

Well it's all good to see the need for pilots. There are however many who want to go LH but have not had successful bids. They would be frustrated by this and understandably so.

It makes sense if you require a handful of 747 pilots quickly to look for rated individuals rather than taking a pilot from one fleet and effectively having to bear the cost of two ratings.

[Coffin Corner]

It's a shame BA doesn't just swallow up the spare (if any) GSS guys and gals that were unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of BA's cargo policies

[bex88]

Now that I think a lot of us would support!

[slowjet]

Mate of mine is completely convinced by a mate of his that the latter got straight into BA 747 circa 1997. Did 18 months RHS 747 and was then offered FO Training or Command course. Took the latter on 737 and has been a TC for the last 1o years. All mainline. I and others , except my mate, are astonished. But, sometimes it is right place, right time. I was BEA at the time of the BEA/BARD integration and wanted to go, desperately, to BOAC (still heading for the full merger). Way behind SFO's and 890 on the FO list it became very clear that I had no chance. I would have been mighty peeved if BOAC jumped all of us & took direct entries on the 707/VC10. But, these days, beancounters rule and I daresay that existing rules can be easily circumnavigated in the interests of company economic health. Cripes, I am beginning to sound like Walshie !

[NigelOnDraft]

DEP LH has been offered in the past - as you say, '96-'97 certainly. In fact I was offered 747 but pushed for 757/767 and got it.

LGW Commands were effectively "DEC" about then as well... as you say, it would be via a LHR fleet, but the LGW T&Cs poor enough, and rate of progression/retirements elsewhere, many took it soon after joining.

Since then the 65 retirement age, stagnation, improved LGW T&Cs mean the LGW Command time is now high (but not as high as LHR of course), and we have plenty of SH P2s desperate to get to LH and eligible. That is why LH DEP recruitment might cause a few ripples :ooh:

[binsleepen]

Slow jet,

It's true I have flown with him. He now has a longhaulish cmd. Right place right time and in BA the right bid.

Regards

[overstress]

There are several DEPs on the -400 from that recruitment in 96-7 who are still SFOs on the -400. That gives you a measure of stagnation in BA.

[lookoutbelow]

Lindsay Craig has posted a LinkedIn update today asking for any B747-4 rated pilots that might be interested in joining BA to register for regular email alerts via the BA Careers portal.

[Stocious]

Maybe for commands on a LH fleet, but equally they could easily have had SH commands by now if they'd so desired.

[zeddb]

It's a shame BA doesn't just swallow up the spare (if any) GSS guys and gals that were unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of BA's cargo policies

Hmm...they didn't seem very interested at the time when BALPA tried to raise some hope for us. Most of the guys and gals have since disappeared off to the sandpit and other destinations although there are a few of us likely to be around in the near future and I for one would certainly have a go, worth a try and a far better alternative than looming unemployment.

I suppose that the existing folk who wanted a shot at LH might be a bit fed up, but not half as fed up as the GSS crews were when we got pushed out onto the street earlier this year.

Remember, there's always someone worse off than yourself, especially outside of the BA bubble, try and have a bit of sympathy. Anyway most of us remnants are in our last 10 years or so and will likely be retired to the desert along with the airframes. All you young thrusting types can enjoy yourselves on the 777/787/A380.


Any idea when it might happen?

[eaglesnest1972]

Any info on how the 320 DEP recruitment is going?

[no sponsor]

I flew with someone who is an assessor, and they explained they were inundated with applications from Monarch. No shortage of highly qualified quality people.

[eaglesnest1972]

Exactly what expected.
Thanks mate:ok:

[Superpilot]

75% of whom won't even make it past First Stage because BA have a profile that needs fitting.

[eaglesnest1972]

:eek:

that's interesting to know mate...

[kirungi1]

Superpilot, that is very interesting :confused:

[no sponsor]

Come on guys, it ain't rocket science. There's loads of stuff on here to help get you through. BA selection is always about giving good examples to the questions in the interview, No examples..no job offer. Openness and effectiveness to getting to the goal in the team stuff. A bit of mental maths and verbal reasoning tests (lots of good places to practice those online), and then the sim (lots on here about that too).

Despite what you may think of the process, that's the process, and there's no secret to it.

[wiggy]

But, these days, beancounters rule and I daresay that existing rules can be easily circumnavigated in the interests of company economic health. Cripes, I am beginning to sound like Walshie !

As I think may have been mentioned before direct recruitment to Long Haul is not new, no rule change required or Irish CEO needed .

Some of us joined BA as DEPs quite a while back with no heavy or four jet experience and went straight on to the "classic 747"....and 18 months later some of those were sitting in the RHS of brand new 744's (Reason probably being the BA pilot short haul position was apparently quite lucrative at the time).

Mate of mine is completely convinced by a mate of his that the latter got straight into BA 747 circa 1997.

Entirely possible and all above board, as has been said right place, right time.

[Callsign Kilo]

Mate of mine is completely convinced by a mate of his that the latter got straight into BA 747 circa 1997.

Nothing new here. The last big DEP intake circa 2010/11 saw people go directly to the 744 fleet. I knew a number of them as they once flew for my current outfit. They had zero LH experience, but were Boeing rated.

[Wirbelsturm]

DEP onto LH has happened many times in the past and, unfortunately for those stuck on SH at the moment, will probably happen again.

Whilst this will be a bitter pill for those wishing to transfer from SH to LH it is mainly going to be generated by training capacity. In order to release a SH pilot to a LH conversion course his/her seat needs to be filled prior to release.

Possibly due to a bit of shortsighted planning BA are struggling with workload on SH and the training department is already stretched with the projected training of current allocated DEP's and FPP's.

The LH fleets continue to grow however with the recent delivery of the final 777-300 and the last 787-800. There is now a short breather before commencement of 787-9 and 787-10 deliveries next year and we are still awaiting a decision on the 777X.

There is rumor that there is little or no training capacity on the Airbus to allow fleet transfers to go ahead in the current training year. BA has thumb screwed the trainers to the point where they are, quite rightly, balking at forced overtime.

Given the above scenario and the necessity for crews on the LH fleets especially as the 744 retirement programme inevitably drags there is a good business case for DEP LH entry.

Always keep in the back of the mind though that you will join at the very bottom and, when capacity allows, all of those wishing to transfer from SH to LH with valid bids will join the fleet roster ahead of you. It's a long journey at the bottom with a new rostering system that will undoubtedly benefit the company more than you. :{

[zeddb]

Always keep in the back of the mind though that you will join at the very bottom and, when capacity allows, all of those wishing to transfer from SH to LH with valid bids will join the fleet roster ahead of you. It's a long journey at the bottom with a new rostering system that will undoubtedly benefit the company more than you. :{

Point taken, still beats the dole queue though and in my own case at least, it's not for twenty or thirty years, more like nine or ten. I can think of worse places to sail off into the sunset, assuming I could ever get past selection.:eek:

Expect nothing, then you are never disappointed.

[FANS]

I didn't realise Vueling operated long haul? Or can you transfer between the two?

[Wirbelsturm]

I didn't realise Vueling operated long haul? Or can you transfer between the two?

AFAIK they don't do LH.
Always willing to be corrected though. :sad:

[Wirbelsturm]

The 'rumour' within the company is that DEP direct to LH will be going ahead.

No ideas on when or what fleet.

:ok:

[bex88]

The rumour is also that the last recruitment drive attracted approximately 250 applications! way way down on expected numbers. Internal voices have been talking about 200+ pilots required next year.

It is good to finally see some job creation. Hopefully this will give opportunities to anyone who has found themselves on the receiving end of a "we regret to inform you letter"

I have found myself guilt of moaning about BA to my family but honestly these point of contention have been bought about by BALPA. BA is still a great place to work even though it can be a lonely one.

[eaglesnest1972]

only 250? looks like a real small number.
On my side, applied in august, still no answer.

[StopStart]

As someone else mentioned a few posts ago, DEP recruitment direct to LH is currently planned for rated 747-400 pilots.

[bringbackthe80s]

Hi all, could I please have an updated figure of the average monthly salary (net, in your pocket) as a new entrant on BA longhaul.
Thanks

[bex88]

£3500 a month base and with duty pay say 4k and you should be about right. Probably a touch more.

Starting base pay is just under 52k but those tables don't include the latest pay desk. FPA is around £600 per month LH. It's the most up to date info I can find and is rounded up or down as appropriate. Do they not tell you this when applying?

Eaglesnest1972. Came from a reliable source and I think this is why the window was extended and requirements lowered. The monarch situation I am sure has changed things

[Harry palmer]

If that figure is correct for the recent number of applicants is there a good chance they will open DEP Non Rated recruitment?

[bringbackthe80s]

ok, £4000 a month net. Thanks bex

[bex88]

Pass I don't know about non rated. I think the only thing preventing it is training capacity.

[Wirbelsturm]

I would agree with Bex88 however, DEP has, historically, been a much lower training risk as the applicants are generally filtered at the interview/sim stage.

Hence I would suggest that non-type rated applicants can be fed through to fleets with a higher training capacity without a problem eg. A380 (if previous airbus experienced),747 and 787. There is also the A350 possibly coming and it would make sense to queue up future training assets to that fleet if the applicants have either SH Airbus or A330 experience.

My personal opinion is that the 777 has too much of an internal applicant backlog to allow DEP however no one can ever second guess what IAG/BA will do and it's their train set after all.

[eaglesnest1972]

Hi folks,
Any news for the 320 dep?

[Superpilot]

Does anyone know how many have actually been offered A320 RHS since August 2014?

[eaglesnest1972]

As for me no answer (yes/maybe/pfo) since application.
I am sure they will answer.
I just understood from the beginning that it was going to be a fast thing.
My guess now is that BA will wait until the deadline for former military pilots will expire (today), then they will start to answer back.
My guess of course.
We'll see:sad:

[Widebdy]

Would anyone have an insight into the likely pool of applicants for the longhaul vacancies? Typically is there a large number willing to take the paycut to come from the UAE? I imagine a lot of the Norwegian Air Shuttle 787/777 rated guys would be interested but are still under their 3 year bond. Do BA consider paying bonds for successful candidates?

[Wirbelsturm]

Widebdy,

I suppose it depends upon the amount of suitable applicants. If BA can't fill the recruitment slots then they will have to look at alternative means. Although I must admit I have never heard of such a move as paying bonds but what goes on behind the scenes is anyone's guess.

AFAIK DEP to LH will be onto the 744 which BA will keep running longer than anticipated.

[Smokie]

I have noticed the recruitment has been extended until 6th October.
However, I also notice that it is only for 747,767,777 and 787.

Has the A320 recruitment finished or is it a clitch with the website?
I was rejected by online assessment as, I have no time on any of the above.
I do however, have 4000 hrs on the A320/A321.

Any thoughts most appreciated.

[eaglesnest1972]

Smokie,

did you apply also for the 320 DEP?

Outcome?

[Smokie]

The website shows only for 747,767,777 & 787.:hmm:

[eaglesnest1972]

Ok, thanks.
I thought you applied also for the 320 DEP (expired the 18th september).
Regards.

[Smokie]

Which was why I was asking ......:{

[eaglesnest1972]

Sorry for that mate:sad:

[Flying Wild]

So, still no hope for 737 rated guys. I'm sure that allows for ZFTT though?

Fingers crossed requirements change...

[Smokie]

Yep, looks like Ive missed out this time around too, just hope they need more Bus Drivers :ok:

[777X]

Ad states 747-400. Does this rule out 747-800 pilots?

What about 757 pilots for the 767 jobs? A one day differences course surely...

[cockygashandlazy]

747-8 is not a type. The EASA licensed 747-8 crew have 747-400 ratings. It is merely a differences course to operate the 747-8.

AFAIK this is not the case in Korea as it is considered an individual type.

[bigdaviet]

One of the requirements is an EASA / JAR FCL licence.

Is this a problem for those in the middle east with locally issued licences and ratings, eg. GCAA in the UAE.

[eaglesnest1972]

I suppose you will have to take everything back to the UK before starting (if selected).
Not a big issue IMHO.
Best:ok:

[BAP]

With regards to ratings issued by another ICAO member state.
When i joined, it was a condition for me to get the rating endorsed on my JAR/EASA license, prior to joining.
Unfortunately there is no good reason for this, as they make you sit all the exams again...

It was a bit of an issue for me. First of all getting the time off to do it, when living in the ME, and then not to mention the cost involved in having to resit the exams in the UK, as well as paying for 4 hours in the sim with an examiner...


BTW seems like they have just opened up for A320 rated pilots again.

[Smokie]

Thanks for the heads up. Doesn't seem to be any link to click on as previously for the Boeing positions though. But I see A320 is now added to the list of types.

Perhaps I am not on the correct page?
Tried all my usual searches but to no avail, has it gone live yet?

[Threethirty]

You're looking on the wrong page. You can't apply as a 320 rated person yet. Here's the page you're after.

http://www.britishairways.com/careers/vacancy_search_results.shtml?searchtext=Pilots

[Smokie]

Many thanks. I have added the page to my home screen, will wait for it to go live with A320 added. :O

[eaglesnest1972]

So what happened to the ad expired on the 18th for 320 dep's?
I applied for that but never had any feedback from BA.
Weird...

[tubby linton]

The last few lines of this page though states:
The Direct Entry (DEP) recruitment programme - We are now accepting applications for the following;
A320 type rated and B747-400/767/777/787 type rated.


http://www.britishairways.com/careers/directentrypilots.shtml


I know a number of rated people who appiied for the A320 job that had a cut off of last week and have heard nothing.

[eaglesnest1972]

I am one of them.
Applied in august, cutoff 5 days ago, no reply.
I think its BA policy to answer anyway so i am confident.
Sooner or later we'll get an answer.

[binsleepen]

All

As I understand it BA are gagging for pilots, particularly A320 pilots, and there is likely to be alot of upset chief pilots at the Low Cost Airlines next year when their pilots start handing in their notices prior to the summer season. I think the 250 required pilots mentioned earlier may be an under-estimation. I believe the 320 programme for next year will be considerabley greater than this year. This means that as well as the need for new recruits due to this expansion there will be many new 320 commands freeing up LH right seat slots for SH copilots inturn opening up their seats for more new recruits. Those starting courses at the end of this year will be 1/3 to 1/2 way up the 320 seniority list by the end of next year. Not a bad place to be.

BA will be looking for 747 pilots for next year hence the new LH campaign. They will probably not require 767, 777 or 787 pilots to fly those types (although not yet finalised) but will use those with LH experience to fly the 747s. It is unlikely there will be enough quality 747 applicants to fill the required slots. Those going straight onto LH will be at the bottom of thier seniority list for quite a while but you will have the benefit of the LH lifestyle.

BA will not compromise on the quality of recruits in order to take people with the right type rating. So if enough suitable candidates cannot be found from the present campaigns expect to see A330/340 ratings added to the list, then 737 then finally NTRs. Its done in this way to avoid the recruitment dept being inundated with applications.

For those waiting for replies please remember there are only a couple of guys/girls in the pilot recruitment department. They run the ads, screen the applications, organise the recruitment days, answer emails and phone calls from people like me as well as fitting in a little time to go flying. They will answer all applications, just be patient.

Regards and good luck

P.S. the LH ad now includes the 757, not in the title but the body of the ad.

[Smokie]

A Colleague of mine informed me today that he has passed his assesment earlier on today and is waiting for a date for the Sim assessment. I wish him well.
His experience is BAe 146, Emb 190 and 6 months on the A320 we both started in April on our present contract, so I guess he has about 400 hrs A320.

Myself, I have 4000 hrs A320/321 with two previous companies, plus 350 ( more sectors but not as many hours) with present company.
See what happens :ok:

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks to binsleepen,

as always valuable infos from you:ok:
Really surprised to hear that all applications are handled by only 2 employees.
Though BA recruitment dept was huge:}

[billybuds]

What has surprised me is that some people who jumped through all the hoops successfully in the very first recruitment drive this year haven't yet been offered courses but are sat in the dreaded holding pool!

[binsleepen]

Eagles nest. I said guys and girls. The head of pilot recruitment is a guy. Don't offend him as he does post on here:eek:

They have a lot of pilots who help with the actual interviewing but day to day there is only a couple of them. The whole recruitment department is much larger for the whole airline but I am just talking about pilot recruitment.

Regards

[eaglesnest1972]

Thanks mate:ok:

[jetstreamlover]

What surprises me is the high number of fATPLs already employed by BA, surely this would be a great opportunity to recruit loyal company bods from within who have a wealth of experience in various areas (cabin crew, ops, engineering etc) who know how the airline works?! :confused:

[WhyByFlier]

Edited to delete my post as in the end - it's pointless! It's just an opinion!

[maxed-out]

Says the one who went to CTC for 120k!

Edited to say, all in my own humble opinion of course.

[jetstreamlover]

WhyByFlier, I was in no way suggesting that any of the fATPLs within BA feel that they are owed anything by the company, and I fully agree that training is a risk and each individual's choice. Nor was I suggesting that they should have any preference over an already rated and experienced pilot. My point was that every week I see several flights cancelled due to a lack of flight crew, BA are absolutely desperate for pilots! With the length of time it takes to open up and run a recruitment campaign, it was merely an observation that it could be a helpful option.

[Juan Tugoh]

The issue for BA is not selection times but training capacity, so it would make no difference where the candidates came from, internal or external. There is a dreadful lack of capacity in the training system, a legacy of years of stagnation and low training requirement. Now there is a large training requirement and not enough capacity. BA are looking at all sorts of solutions including external training courses so expect to see type rated people being given preference for the foreseeable future.

[WhyByFlier]

Ok fair enough and thank you for your measured response. The trouble with BA's manning levels and recruitment is that they haven't yet twigged that they are no longer special. They aren't the pinnacle. Other airlines will offer a more lucrative, stable career and the amount we fly, many aren't terribly fussed about a boeing 380 or an Airbus 787:} it's about money, stability and command. BA are not best on all 3 anymore. Not over a course of a career. Yet they still insist on irrelevant tests, interviews which aren't fit for purpose and a lack of weighting on the wrong attributes. Tell me is their recruitment 'closed loop'? By that I don't mean 'well we haven't had crashes, too many complaints and everyone seems ok on a night stop', I mean are these selected people measuring up against the 'stringent' required profile. How can they be sure? Have they tried relaxing their criteria for a few each batch and comparing?

Where do BA think they're going to find the right stuff? They're running out of options. They need to be flexible, adjust and get real.

As for training capacity - perhaps if it wasn't down to manager's budgets and they were again more measured it wouldn't be so tight. All or nothing it seems.

[bex88]

whybyflier: I was equally sceptical about BA's long and seemingly irrelevant recruitment process but there must be something right about it. I say this because on a fleet of nearly 1000 pilots I can honestly say there has only been one or two times where I have wanted to get out of that jet and away from my colleague as fast as possible.

If it were me I would interview whilst showing candidates around the airline, have lunch together and then a sim test in the afternoon / evening. If that was all good then give the pilot a six month fixed term contract with the agreement that it will become permanent if x, y and z are met. In a previous airline the chief pilot was very honest. "We give out six month contracts and if after that time we like you or more importantly don't know your name then we give you a full time position"

The evidence I see would suggest that BA's system selects the correct people but it very very probably discards many very very capable pilots along the way.

[Juan Tugoh]

While BA have no trouble getting the numbers through the door, those that have passed their "irrelevant" tests, then I doubt they will change anything in their recruitment process. Why would they? The system has worked for many years now and has provided BA with what they need and want. People saying that the selection is irrelevant or dated or anything else are still missing the point. BA are getting the numbers through the door with no problems, occasionally they relax their criteria but that merely tells you that they are still, usually, able to cherry pick from whoever is out there. When that small pool is exhausted they widen their criteria a little. It does not suggest that there is a recruitment problem.

As I said before the problem is capacity in the training system not in getting people through the door. The recruitment requirement this year is large and some if those that come in will probably do some external training but this will be minimised by taking type rated people first.

[WhyByFlier]

And that's where BA's retirement home - their brothers in arms, CTC, come in......

[kirungi1]

whybyflier

it's about money, stability and command
I'm not sure whether this motivation alone would bring you any job satisfaction in the BA's business model.

[WhyByFlier]

No, I'm not married to the job. I work to get as much money to do and buy all the nice things I want, with my family and friends, that I can. Flying is a nice way of doing that. The command gives me more autonomy over my day. The stability gives me less stress. A bigger plane takes me away from home more, more boring time in the cruise, less take offs and landings and more chance of certain illnesses.

What else do people work for if its not money, stability and progression?

And before you drop the lil nugget you can go into management, training (TRI) and recruitment in easy as an FO as well.

[kirungi1]

I agree with your argument but what I do not accept is that much as it works at your outfit it might not fit into BA's model and that's why recruitment would be keen to identify similar candidates this by say unsettling them with test you described as 'irrelevant tests, interviews which aren't fit for purpose'. BA's secret in recruitment falls between the lines of lateral thinking (thinking from outside the box) to arrive at what you want. Only those who align with BA's point of view get the nod.

It has worked for them over the years; why would you change a working formulae just because they think you should change!?

[WhyByFlier]

Only those who align with BA's point of view get the nod.

And that's conducive to:

BA's secret in recruitment falls between the lines of lateral thinking (thinking from outside the box) to arrive at what you want.

Is it?

Incongruously juxtaposed wouldn't you say?

It's my opinion that it should be a long grilling about why you want to join, who you are, what you've done and where you want to be. And then a solid sim - lots of raw data, holds, bad weather, some failures, some CRM issues and a nice lunch together somewhere in between. Any other pseudoscience is there to make CC/pilot-cum-psycologists feel justified and remove accountability like any good manager should. 'Twas the selections fault m'lord.

To counter your argument for BA's selection- are you noticing a difference between BA selected pilots and BMI unselected pilots? Voila! Think outside that box. Personally, I choose not to get in it in the first place.

[Juan Tugoh]

There are many posts on this and other threads over the years critical of BA's recruitment process. BA seem quite happy with it. Bottom line is simple. You don't have to join BA with it's silly recruitment processes.

It just makes one wonder why so many people spend so much time being critical of a process in a company they "choose" not to be a part of. Smacks too much of sour grapes or envy to me. If you choose not to be part of BA then why give a tinker's cuss about how they recruit?

[Smokie]

Whilst I see the A320 has now been added to the list of types for further recruitment, I don't see a live link for it yet, only for the Boeings on a different page, with cut off date for 6th October.

Have I missed something here ? Or can you use that link? As after searching again I only get the live link for the Boeings.
Thanks.

[eaglesnest1972]

The 320 DEP page went offline the 18 september (deadline cutoff).
Am i missing anything?:sad:

[kirungi1]

whybyflier

My point is using lateral thinking (initiative, creative, persuasive, negotiator et la) to align one's profile to BA's own, while being fairly comfortable with the tests & interviews, what-ever one might make of them, and you should get a nod.

I'll still accept your case but will not agree as Juan Tugoh, bex88 & others have best laid bare.

[Smokie]

A few days ago, the A320 and 757 were added to the types required but the live link button for online assessment only shows the Boeings.

[eaglesnest1972]

PFO just arrived into my mail box.
Best of luck to those still in the game.
I guess my future will be east, far east, for a long time.
BA was a dream for me, but i realise there is more people with more experience than me so it's fair they get more attention.
Thanks to all for the valuable infos:ok:

[Sprinkles]

PFO for me. Current Monarch SFO. I didn't even get to attend the 1st selection process!!! A point blank rejection after my initial online application. I didn't think I was that much of a :mad: on paper!

So much for BA gagging for 320 rated pilots. I have 1800 hours on type and potentially out of job come April. With not enough hours for the Middle East and easyJet unlikely to take me back this could be the end of the road for me. :{

[binsleepen]

Sprinkles, I am sorry you didn't make it but 5 of your colleagues got offers this week. On the positive side if enough of your colleagues make it through in BA and other carriers then there may be no need for forced redundancies at MON.

It took me 3 attempts to get into BA, and while definitely not to be recommended, failure does breed determination and character.

regards

[billybuds]

Out of interest, got offered a place in the pool or offered a start date?

[Sprinkles]

Cheers for the reply binsleepen.

Seniority is my only hope. Fortunately that might keep me safe but questions will have to be asked on the longevity of the business. But that's not relevant here.

Unfortunately things aren't as simple with the respect of people leaving and redundancies. But you're right the more voluntary redundancies and notices being handed in should decrease the amount of compulsory redundancies handed out. But, like I say it's not that simple sadly.

One door closes and another opens and all that crap! :}

[eaglesnest1972]

Sprinkles,

i don't know your total time but with 1800 hrs on a fbw airbus i think you qualify for at least a couple of airlines in the ME.
I wish you all the best:ok:

[SkyHawk1985]

Any info regarding the B744 fleet?

[bex88]

747 fleet, I am not on it but it's a large fleet still around 45-50 aircraft (best estimate) and whilst it is being retired this will take about 10 years. Good route network, those on it seem to love it. Being DEP you will not get a choice of work due to seniority so expect blind lines. Often these work out quite nicely actually.
Starting pay is 52k and FPA is £630 a month. Duty pay is probably up around the 1k a month. Full time is about 4 trips a month.

This is what I am told by some that I know on that fleet but it's just a ball park. I am sure someone else can be more accurate.

[wiggy]

Not a bad summary but I suspect many junior full timers are going to be looking at 5 or more trips a month as most of the long range stuff migrates onto the newer fleets.

[Juan Tugoh]

It will be interesting to see how the EASA rules and new Bidline change how the work allocation happens on the Jurassic Fleet, particularly as the long range trips move to the newer, more efficient fleets. 6 transaltantics a month anyone?:8

[Harry palmer]

So with the trawl for 320 rated apparently struggling to attract enough people. DEP on to LH open and the managed path for military pilots advertised is there any possibility Non Rated DEP will make it down to those of us flying Turbo Props and Regional Jets. Like many of my colleagues I would very much like a shot at BA and the opportunity to progress in the industry.

[binsleepen]

See my post 721. Not much has changed in 4 days....

Regards

[Craggenmore]

binsleepin,

Hope you're still enjoying BA 6 years in. Sounds like you are. Have you joined the recruitment department?

Just wondering if BA will ever look to recruit experienced A380 drivers in the future?

Not interested myself but I know others are.

Always good to know ones worldwide options on a rare fleet..!

[wiggy]

Just wondering if BA will ever look to recruit experienced A380 drivers in the future?


Ultimately nobody knows, but that said it's increasingly looks like it's always going to be a small fleet in which case my guess is (IMHO) all the seats easily filled by internal transfer.

[Callsign Kilo]

Sprinkles

Whilst the prospect of redundancy must be extremely stressful, try not to be overly disheartened by the rejection from BA. On paper I'm sure you appear a safe bet; greater than 1500hrs on the bus with a background established in two respected operators. I think you are probably selling yourself short when it comes to airlines in the Gulf. I know of at least one where you exceed the requirements. The ME isn't ideal but it's a stable job with better command prospects than BA. Hopefully you won't have to venture that route but if if you do..:ok:

As consolation, the BA DEP process is littered with traps which could see you fall at the slightest of hurdles. In my opinion and experience, the further that you get within the process only leads to greater disappointment when you fail. All "offers" will be for a holding pool with no guarantee of a start date. There has been an ongoing and disheartening record of people making it, only not to actually make it in the end. And whilst I'm sure LC and his team of recruiters see this as completely undesirable, it has occurred in the last two campaigns. Been there, bought the t-shirt. It isn't pretty.

BA have went from a position of dumping a DEP hold pool and denouncing any future prospect of further DEP hire to a desperate need for DEPs across multiple fleets in less than 12 months. There is now a requirement for LH hire, something that had been completely discounted by many within. From this it is difficult to fathom what's going on. However could a hold pool place be argued as a safe bet considering previous and more recent occurrences? A hard one to answer I'd say.

Best of luck for the future

[frozenpilot]

Callsign & Bin spleen,

Just out of interest, for those who are successful when are the 'projected' courses for new LH recruits?

Thanks

[StopStart]

Given how short they are on the 744 I'd imagine the courses would start just as soon as you could work your notice with your present employer....

[frozenpilot]

Oh... Thanks!

[binsleepen]

The recruitment process takes 2-3 months at the minimum from application to hold pool. Job offers are given a minimum of 3 months prior to courses starting in order to allow the applicant to give in their notice to their present employer.

Therefore for applications going in now I wouldn't expect a training course before the end of March '15, but that is just my opinion.

Regards

[McNugget]

Out of curiosity, with those figures you quoted, is FPA (circa 650) a monthly occurrence? Sorry, I'm not familiar with the term...

So (if my poor maths holds up), you're looking at a basic of around 4300PCM, plus 650 + 1000, so around 5000 gross (3500 net) per month as a DEP on long haul?

I only ask as I have a few mates interested in applying to get back home, just wondering how the numbers stack up, not that money is the main driver, for most its the desire to move back home.

[StopStart]

£52kpa + another £12kpa in duty pay gives you £64000 per year. At current tax rate that netts you approximately £3700 per month after tax and NI. If you pay the max 6% into your pension then your take home becomes £3500.

On top of that are your allowances at approx £650 per month. These are, I believe, taxed at a very marginal rate (if at all) and so you can expect to see £5-600 of that in your pay packet. Take home pay, per month then would be approximately £4100 per month.

[Flying Clog]

OUCH!!!

As much as I would love to chuck in the towel with the mob I work for in HKG, my take home pay (including housing) is THREE TIMES that.

I know money isn't everything, but that's a show stopper.

Shame.

:{

[bananaman2]

Yeah... but what we're talking about here is starting FO pay. There are 34 pay points...

Is your pay, FO or Capts pay, do you have seniority etc?

[Flying Clog]

10 year F/0. Trapped in my golden handcuffs.

Money isn't everything, but... seniority is.

Biggest error of judgement I ever made joining this outfit.

:ugh:

[zeddb]

Flying clog;

If being trapped in golden handcuffs is difficult, think about facing a third redundancy in under 5 years and facing no job and no income after xmas followed by a pension that wouldn't support a small hamster. Then consider that your best hope is a selection process with an 80% chance of failure, even at the first stage. Things suddenly don't look too bad do they?

Put yourself in the position of the Monarch guys or even someone like myself. You could easily wind up as a Grounded clog.

I'll get me coat...

[McNugget]

Starting FO pay as a year one FO (about a year after starting your upgrade from SO is a take home of around £7300. This is on a normal non-expat contract with no housing.

Seniority-based pay scale goes up gently, take home as a fresh skipper around £11500 net.

Similar number of pay points to BA.

Not that it's the only consideration, but the money in the UK isn't great.

[Kempus]

Do people delsy dine to supplement their salary? HMRC would love that. Are the allowances enough to cover your host bill?

[Megaton]

Allowances are easily enough to cover your Host bill unless you're unfortunate enough to have 2/3 HKGs in a month in which case your wallet and liver might take a bit of a bashing.

[wiggy]

Yep, what Megaton said...as long as you're vaguely sensible :oh: your allowances daily rate will cover the "Host" bill for most destinations.

[Threethirty]

Don't forget though that the cost of living in Hong Kong is astronomical, way more than the UK which itself is expensive. Unless you're slurping on noodles in Mongkok, it's definitely not cheap.

[Craggenmore]

Given how short they are on the 744 I'd imagine the courses would start just as soon as you could work your notice with your present employer....

My mate is a three striper on short haul at BA. Every year he's put in a bid transfer for the 747 so why is he still being denied..?

Don't forget though that the cost of living in Hong Kong is astronomical, way more than the UK which itself is expensive. Unless you're slurping on noodles in Mongkok, it's definitely not cheap.

Nonsense. Happy endings are far cheaper in HK :O

[Juan Tugoh]

My mate is a three striper on short haul at BA. Every year he's put in a bid transfer for the 747 so why is he still being denied..?

Still frozen or lacking seniority. The process of fleet transfer within BA is transparent and open.

[wiggy]

My mate is a three striper on short haul at BA. Every year he's put in a bid transfer for the 747 so why is he still being denied..?

What Juan said. .........OTOH the postings ("transfer") system is quite dynamic, so given the rate of change in the P&P arena at the moment it's possible your mate might get a pleasant surprise (albeit at short notice...).

[4468]

My mate is a three striper on short haul at BA. Every year he's put in a bid transfer for the 747 so why is he still being denied..?
IIRC

Moving from two to three stripes occurs after four years. The Engagement Freeze runs to five years. But your mate could easily have told you that? So 'every year', he's either been frozen, or he's only been bidding for 747. (they've had few vacancies recently as the number of hulls is reducing) Though he could likely have had A380, B777 or B787 had he been unfrozen AND bid for them.

Or maybe he's waiting for the A350?

Choices, choices!

The process is completely and utterly transparent. Unlike very many other outfits. Though I have just read of the possibility of 'denied bids' in 2015, due solely to BA's lack of required training capacity.

Flying Clog.

Your 'biggest error of judgement' is preferring the number in the bottom right corner of your pay slip above everything else! I hope Beijing don't come a knocking!

[Craggenmore]

His joining year was summer 2006 so it must be seniority.

Will new hires jump over him if needs must..?

[4468]

In any normal year, new recruits would only be accepted in a seat for which there are insufficient unfrozen internal bidders.

However, it's looking increasingly likely that 2015 may not be a normal year.

[bringbackthe80s]

Quote:Your 'biggest error of judgement' is preferring the number in the bottom right corner of your pay slip above everything else! I hope Beijing don't come a knocking!

Agree with that. With all due respect to anyone out of a job or with an unpleasent base though, you will have to agree that being based in London (and before you all suggest, no I don't want to spend the only life I have commuting unless I really had to..) on a 4k net salary is not the best contract in the world.
I don't need to live in Myfair, but 4k will not go far in London or in the South East in general.

Yes there' s more to it than mere net salary, but I don't see any accomodation provided, private schooling payed, or company car and phone here right?
So please tell me, what should one be looking at if not the number at the bottom right corner?

[4468]

I don't live in London, or the South East. BA have pilots who live in NZ and pretty much everywhere (in both directions) in between. Commuting to one's tax haven is not for me, but our rostering and remuneration (currently) allows it, for anyone who so prefers.

Individual choice and all that.

At least one of our top paid pilots is taking home £20k per month. (He doesn't live in Mayfair either!) Horses for courses!

Personally, I'm not bothered about dying rich, but I would like to enjoy the journey, because (accommodation/private schooling/company car or phone?) it won't be long for any of us, before it's gone!

[Right Engine]

One pilot in BA taking home £20k per month?

That sir, is rubbish.

Perhaps if a trainer on the top pay point in a month where profit share was paid and they had done LOTS of overtime the previous month, he could take home £12k.

Put it this way, there is perhaps only one The Director of Flight Ops, but his profit share is never explained.

[McNugget]

I suppose that's the rub. Undoubtedly, if you took home £10,000+ in a month, ones gross salary in the UK is very handsome. The tax regime is so incredibly punitive, it's pretty hard to capitalise and generate wealth over and above a certain level; which, these days, is quite low.

Am I remembering rightly that the IR seemed to create/change legislation in such a way that it seemed like it was exclusively targeting flight crew commuters who were able to previously minimise their UK tax exposure whilst working for UK Airlines?

[wiggy]

One pilot in BA taking home £20k per month?

As has been said, :hmm:...but OK, it might just be one....

I guess if a senior pilot (top pay point, possibly a trainer) had a very very good month with payable work/back pay, and wasn't exposed to much UK tax that sort of figure might just be possible once in a blue moon but it sure as heck wouldn't be the norm.

Am I remembering rightly that the IR seemed to create/change legislation in such a way that it seemed like it was exclusively targeting flight crew commuters who were able to previously minimise their UK tax exposure whilst working for UK Airlines?

FWIW if the pilot is a non UK resident it might be worth considering there may well be "income tax" to pay on that income in the country of residence so the bottom Right Hand corner of the UK pay statement might look good but it might not tell the full story:{

I suspect the normal senior mortals resident in the UK might see half that if they were very lucky, on a good month....

[wiggy]

Anyone with the latest planned retirement figures for the next few years?


My emphasis - answer: AFAIK there aren't any plans, just a few guesses...

If the retirement age stays "as is" then logically you're going to see (best guess) perhaps 100+ a year retiring starting in the next couple of years. OTOH if someone decides to challenge the age 65 rule and is successful in that challenge ( and rumours are starting to circulate :bored: ) then all bets are off.

That said there are signs that attrition and being nibbled to death by ducks is starting to take it's toll and there's a handful (<10) going from the more senior fleet(s) in the next month or two.

[Chief Willy]

The number of pilots hitting CRA is low for the next 5 or so years, in the tens not hundreds, before it ramps up to around the 100 p.a. figure in a decade from now. Currently new commands and moves are largely being generated by new fleets/expansion.

[ManUtd1999]

So the best time to get in is about 5 years from now then, just in time to see your seniority shoot up :ok:

[kirungi1]

.....it might be bearable at 25, you can perhaps lie to yourself at 30, but when you are looking at a first command in your late 50's......well....thats totally different....

I couldn't hold it in any longer; hilarious :D
But on a serious note Mr Gammon Flaps, they say the sea is never always still; who knows! Just maybe.

[Callsign Kilo]

And there's the rub. Sitting next to a skipper who in one month has netted say a third of what you net in a year. A command so far away that it may as well be in another lifetime. What stories do you trade as you cross the pond? How he/she took the other half to Barbados for a mini break whilst you took the missus to to the local shopping centre for a spot of lunch at Nandos?

Sure the 744 is a nice beast and BA is still one of the more stable jobs out there but Mr Gammon Flaps paints an entirely different picture.

[4468]

Thank you Mr Gammon Flaps. I know the individual concerned, and he closely resembles your description.

For those non believers.... Do I look bovvered?:rolleyes:

Incidentally, it was recently 'accidentally' revealed that an A320 captain earned over £55k over the last year in overtime alone! He's not terribly senior.

The money is still here if you are happy to sell your soul to the devil. Personally I choose not to,

[EllanVannin]

To put another, more positive spin on things...

I took a 40% pay cut to move to BA. Frankly, I honestly don't miss the money. You can't put a price on quality of life and a decent career.

Anyone who thinks you can't have a good life living on £4k net a month plus, even with kids and living around London, needs a very serious reality check. The starting salary of £4k a month net puts you easily inside the top 10% of UK earners.

[wiggy]

Thank you Mr Gammon Flaps. I know the individual concerned, and he closely resembles your description.

For those non believers.... Do I look bovvered?

Some of those non-believers understand the difference between a payslip bottom corner that reflects PAYE (UK) vs. a payslip reflecting taxation in a non PAYE system (e.g. France)....:sad:

Anyhow, back to the thread

[Iver]

I guess nobody has a spouse that works and earns good money? My wife works in Finance and makes more than I do... Are all pilots on Pprune married to stay-at-home spouses? Sounds like it. Nowadays a 2nd income is a necessity - especially if you have kids.


Back to the BA Direct Entry Pilot topic....

[R T Jones]

'Anyone who thinks you can't have a good life living on £4k net a month plus, even with kids and living around London, needs a very serious reality check. The starting salary of £4k a month net puts you easily inside the top 10% of UK earners.'

AMEN.....

[FANS]

Well said EV.

It couldn't be any simpler: if you can't live on £3.5k-£4k or are worried about time to command, don't bother applying.

People talking about earning £20k/month (even if gross) is not something that should be of concern to a new joiner.

I'm sure BA will get over you.

[4468]

Hey wiggy.
Have you never heard the term 'take home pay'?

I said what I mean, and I mean what I said.