BA Direct Entry Pilot. [Archive] - Page 22

bex88

19th Nov 2018, 19:30

Would you have got a command in that time frame if you had joined in time to bid for the following training year? 2016 = yes but not LHR, 2017 = no, 2018 = no for LHR, yes LGW. 2019 training year, rumour is yes for LGW but I believe it’s no for LHR but they have gone very junior. Hopefully that helps.

Now the truth about a junior command. Really really bad rosters. You will work at least 9 in 10 weekends if not more. Generally 2 day 6 again and again. The bonus was TASS which could mean a few extra days off per month over more senior guys who choose their work. Under the new JSS rosters that will have gone. You can expect to work 18 days a month or more all year on low credit trips with long turns at LHR. Add to that 3 reserve periods each year. It’s ok for a bit but for years and years you will sit stuck at the bottom as more senior guys parachute in above you. Essentially it destroys your life. It’s ok though because you will be rewarded with a captain pay check........except you will be paid 30-35k less than at EZY or RYR. Colleagues of mine have not had a clear weekend in a year! (Excluding leave)

LGW is probably a better option due to the rostering system.

BA is a good company to work for but the seniority driven rostering is terrible.

furrymuff

20th Nov 2018, 04:23

Hi all.

I'm off to stage 1 in a few weeks.
When I went the first time (18 months ago) I seem to remember being tripped up by the rate of climb/descent part of the computer test. I can't now remember what exactly the problem was but I do recall that it wasn't presented in the normal ft/min way that we're used to in real flying.
Is anyone able to post a few examples of how this part of the test works ?

Thank you
Any chance you can pm me the descent/climb issues?
rgds

Tricia Takanawa

20th Nov 2018, 08:50

Hello everyone,

Just looking for some advice, if anyone is ‘in the know!’

I recently attended (and passed) the second stage interview and group assessment and wanted to get some info regarding A320 command opportunities. It was claimed that with over the applicable command hours requirement, one could expect a short haul command, if so desired, at LGW (or even LHR!) within 6 -12 months of joining. Is this a real possibility? Are the command slots really going to those that junior?

Many thanks in advance.

It also appears to depend on the fleet that you get assigned. So much for strict seniority. Junior 320 FO's are getting upgrades, whilst those senior that were directed to long haul appear to be getting bypassed, simply because of the cost of the course. Something else they isn't mentioned when you apply, nor is expected in such a strict seniority system. I can understand it for people that have been grated transfers that they requested, but not for those that are directed upon joining, and onto a type for which many are already type rated (think 777/787 pilots from Norweigan, EK, QR, CX etc).

bex88

20th Nov 2018, 10:33

BA can at any time within your engagement freeze direct you to a new posting. Its covered in our agreement. But as you suggest it is probably cost and training capacity that are the driving factor.

RexBanner

20th Nov 2018, 10:36

It also appears to depend on the fleet that you get assigned. So much for strict seniority. Junior 320 FO's are getting upgrades, whilst those senior that were directed to long haul appear to be getting bypassed, simply because of the cost of the course.

Haha that’s a good one, I’ll bite. Joining direct onto a Long Haul fleet and bypassing the seniority of eligible internal FO’s (for the reasons of the training footprint and cost no less) then moaning that you can’t now take a SH command for the exact same reasons, which are why you guys are on your Long Haul fleets to begin with? Clear case of having your cake and eating it there Tricia, gotta call it I’m afraid and for once I’m on the company’s side.

(And before we use the term “directed” in the same breath as DEP Long Haul I’m sure there were plenty of these people attempting to turn down Long Haul for RHS on the Airbus :hmm: )

Jwscud

20th Nov 2018, 13:47

Tricia Takanawa

20th Nov 2018, 15:11

If you want to make BA your career the only smart move is taking the earliest start date on whatever fleet you are offered. I was only offered long haul as at the time they didn’t have enough internal bidders who met the hour and insurance requirements.

Don’t join BA if your sole reason is expecting a very early command would be my view as you are likely to be disappointed, if only because those who are now getting very junior commands will be in those seats for a long time with very little movement. The only reason Gatwick particularly is going so junior is the need to man up and fly the slots acquired from Monafch internally.

Like you, I was offered the advice of joining ASAP on what ever fleet they offer. I was prepared, and in fact wanted short haul as everyone told me it would result in more roster satisfaction sooner. Living close to LHR, and having a young family this was, and still is important. However, I was offered LH (not my desired LH fleet either.) So, I was defiantly directed by BA due to costs, and my experience.

Roll on 4 years, and with a seniority number hovering around 3500, there are people getting LGW cmds at 3900. This I have a problem with. Anyone senior to me, fair enough, thats the company that I joined. At no time was I told seniority rules, apart from when it doesn't.

I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised. I was also told that reserve was allocated on a fair points system, apart from senior guys get 3 times the number of points per RSV period. And it takes 4 years to get enough leave points to get anything close to a school holiday, on another system that was sold as being fair. Oh well, apparently I should be lucky to be in.

RexBanner

20th Nov 2018, 15:29

Fully sympathise Tricia however when you joined it was very likely there were bidders senior to you who were denied their move to Long Haul because it was cheaper to employ Direct Entry Pilots and only pay for one course, rather than two. To the vast majority of Short Haul Pilots in the RHS, Long Haul is seen as the golden ticket, granted it wasn’t in your circumstances but I would suggest that’s fairly rare.

Given that this has been happening for the last few years (and has happened in British Airways for a long time now) it should be of no surprise to you that BA are now using the same rule set to give junior commands to those who are rated to reduce their training costs. I post this point of view as someone who wanted long haul but didn’t get it, why should people like me not now benefit from being rated on type - BA have clearly shown precedent - if they want to gain their command? (I don’t BTW)

RexBanner

20th Nov 2018, 16:10

I’ll take that wager ;-)

EMB-145LR

20th Nov 2018, 16:14

Tricia, LC and the rest of the PnP team have previously said that some type freezes will be waived this year for those with a valid C32X bid. If you’ve put in for a Gatwick command, there’s a very good chance you’ll get it.

GS-Alpha

20th Nov 2018, 16:20

Of all the multitude of rules within BA, I have always presumed that the one rule known to all new joiners (be they DEPs, TEPs, CEPs), was that you go wherever the company sends you within your first 5 years period. Then once you are in, you learn “bid only for what you want”, but you won’t get it unless BA choose to unfreeze you. BA are hardly going to choose to unfreeze people where it would cost them money to do so. They do it when it suits them, and that is all. Some people have been known to do 3 courses within their first 5 years because they’ve been in the right (or wrong) place at the right (wrong) time. The great thing is, when you are eventually unfrozen, you’ll have lots of people stopping you from being bottom of the list.

There has been a little bit of talk about DECs, and bids like yours are precisely the reason why that will not be happening any time soon. All the while there are internal pilots wanting short haul commands, BALPA will insist they are unfrozen first, and I am sure there are plenty of frozen bidders available.

RexBanner

20th Nov 2018, 18:52

There has been a little bit of talk about DECs, and bids like yours are precisely the reason why that will not be happening any time soon. All the while there are internal pilots wanting short haul commands, BALPA will insist they are unfrozen first, and I am sure there are plenty of frozen bidders available.

There is another huge reason why DEC will not happen any time soon and that’s because BA is about as attractive as Anne Widdecombe for potential DEC recruits, potentially earning £30k less than at easyJet/RYR to suffer horrendous rosters working every weekend broken up by reserve every other month, for a long long time too.

JulietSierra6

20th Nov 2018, 22:47

Would anyone be able to share any insight into what things are like from LGW, regarding days off per month, length of days, how many sectors, layovers etc.

Currently in the hold pool, Boeing rated but was thinking about mentioning a preference for SH at LGW if possible. I’m aware the offer will be for wherever they need, but as this seems like a less popular choice I was hoping I may have a chance with it.

Would appreciate any info, thanks!

There is some info a bit further back in the thread.

Generally 2 sector day trips. Some tours but not that many, mostly 2 day 6 sector stuff but some longer and better layovers available. Typically in the summer expect 10-14 days off per month with the winter more like 14-18. It’s noticeably seasonal, summers a full on, winters aren’t. At the bottom of the list you can expect mostly weekend work. If that isn’t a problem you can get fairly good rosters.

Expect to move pretty quickly up that list, assuming recruitment continues at the forecast rate.

Buter

20th Nov 2018, 23:14

Jumbo2

21st Nov 2018, 07:21

Absolutely Buter!

As hinted at before, getting a direct entry LH offer might sound like winning the lottery. However it does come with a health warning.

Having just joined the company your seniority number is at the bottom of the group, since every year there is a lot of movement from people who are unfrozen you will generally stay for at least 5 years at pretty much the bottom of the seniority list of that specific fleet before slowly starting to move up. This is because the people who move onto your fleet from other fleets in BA will have a higher seniority number. For SH since the biggest source for new pilots is external recruitment you will generally start moving up the fleet from the day you join.

Reserve points, as a new joiner you start with the lowest amount of reserve points on the fleet (people moving fleet within BA get the average amount of reserve points). On SH this spread isn't generally that large but on LH it can be. Therefor it will take longer to get a reasonable amount of reserve points. Also we have a banding system were if you have been in the company for a while you will get more points for doing a reserve period. On SH pretty much everybody is in the same (lowest) band and therefor everybody does about the same amount of reserve periods a year (after you have managed to get your points to the average after joining).

Xmas and holiday points. Once again joining LH you will find a lot of pilots during their time in the company have build up a fair amount of Xmas and holiday points. As a new joiner you start with 0 points so it will take a few years to get your points up and be able to get the holiday you want or Xmas off. On SH most are less then 5 years in the company and have relatively few Xmas and holiday points. Also on SH there are relatively few Xmas trips.

Commands / Engagement freeze. In the first 5 years of your BA career BA can do and post you where ever they like. If you are desperate for the 4 stripes all junior commands are on the Airbus 320 fleet. BA not being a charity organisation or a state airline they luckily try to control costs. Therefor they are more likely to release somebody from his/her engagement freeze for a command on type then releasing somebody from another fleet for which the course takes much longer and will include two typerating courses (the LH position needs to be backfilled). Also a warning for those who think about command early in their BA career. Your pay rise will be marginal. The reason; you are going to be the most junior skipper with very credit inefficient rosters. If you would have stayed as a FO your rosters would have been much more credit efficient which is reflected in the pay. Also as mentioned above about LH the same is true for an early command. You join a group with most in a higher band of reserve points, more holiday and xmas points. So please if you do go for that early command do so with your eyes wide open and don't start complaining once you have that command that your pay and lifestyle are bad. You bid for it, the perks didn't change and there is a reason the commands went and are going junior.

My experience in BA: My life is much more stable now than with any other airline I worked for before. Being able to bid for your roster (either JSS or Bidline) is a massive perk. However lifestyle took a hit last year being so short of pilots. Secondary terms and conditions incl Pension and LOL are better than what I had before. Most guys I fly with are very professional and for me more importantly practical. The cockpit gradient is almost flat, definitely flatter then other UK airlines I've flown for, if it is your sector you run the show. I also haven't flown with anybody who spends more then 10 minus briefing LHR (don't think I generally even get a brief longer that last longer then 5 minutes for a LHR dep/arr). Having said the exception being there are a few who are slightly harder work who did indeed mainly join as DEC a few years back, they are very friendly on a personal level but can be slightly more authoritative and like to dot the i's and cross the t's when on the flight deck.

BA might not be for everybody (I appreciate that some might rather work for Virgin and Easy, which by the sound of it are very good employers as well) but having joined BA as an experienced FO on SH a few years back I well and truly do enjoy it and wouldn't like to work for any other UK airline. For those in the selection process or thinking about applying. The selection process is hard work and can be a pain in the arse, however it is a very fair process (no age, gender, race, nationality, background discrimination what so ever as somebody hinted at before) and so worth the effort once you are allowed to go straight into Waterside (offices) instead of turning left (recruitment centre).

GetTheQRH

21st Nov 2018, 15:43

Enzo999

21st Nov 2018, 18:03

Hi all,
Does anyone know if there's much change in lifestyle or lifestyle progression for someone that goes into DEP Shorthaul Yr1 at LHR vs. LGW - i.e Would it take longer to see an effective change over the years at LHR over Gatwick? I understand there are more tours at Heathrow, for example, but I'm thinking more in terms of days off per month or the time it will take to not have to work every weekend of the year etc.

I know of a friend that moved LGW -> LHR at around the Yr5 mark and has now gone back to Gatwick after not enjoying the Heathrow lifestyle in comparison. I guess for someone like me, you can't miss what you never had in the first place :confused:

Can anyone also help out with this concept of reserve - It's not something we do at my current employer. On a 28-day reserve block, do you have absolutely no idea what your days off will be/is it possible to plan any remote form of lifestyle in this time or do you just have to accept it and give yourself up to work for a month? How do people find it?

Thanks in advance!

Reserve is a 28 day period made up of 5 days off before and 2 after which you will know from roster publication. The remaining 21 days are completely random and duties are assigned the day before and can be changed up to 8pm the night before the duty starts. You might be stood down for 2 or 3 days during that 21 day period but you won’t know for definite you are stood down till 8pm the night before. So to answer you question for 3 weeks it’s completely impossible to plan anything! LGW is slightly different I don’t know the full details of how it works there but I know the blocks are only 7 days so much shorter periods.

bex88

21st Nov 2018, 18:47

As above but the norm now seems to be 6 on 1 off, 6 on 1 off 6 on. Some will be home standby, some will be airport standby and some will be flying. If it’s really busy you may fly all of it. Exhausting but sometimes just sometime it’s alright.

Jumbo2

21st Nov 2018, 19:47

GetTheQRH

21st Nov 2018, 21:00

@Enzo999 @bex88 @Jumbo2 Thanks such a helpful insight - thanks guys.

Tricia Takanawa

21st Nov 2018, 21:34

Also you could wait until you are assigned one in the middle of the summer where you get a reserve period like bex88 describes. Or you do the smart thing, are proactive and get your reserve points up by doing a quieter reserve period in Winter which is the more civilised version with more stood down days.

I really don't want to sound like a broken record, but feel that people really need to come in with their eyes open. Reserve period requests are processed (quite rightly) according to seniority. I have yet to be granted a reserve period following a bid in the "quieter" months. I imagine bidding for RSV in Dec might almost be guaranteed. Allocated in the busier summer months though is another story. So your advice is slightly misleading.

wiggy

21st Nov 2018, 22:03

. I imagine Dec might almost be guaranteed..

For info Reserve in December is handled under a different rule set than that used during the rest of the year - your vulnerability to Christmas reserve is based on how many Christmases you’ve been “out” in previous years......(your ‘C’ number)

14.3.6.5 if you are really interested....

RexBanner

21st Nov 2018, 22:31

Reserve isn’t an exact science and can be completely baffling as to the workload versus what’s expected for the time of year. I had reserve in June during the World Cup, England going great guns in the tournament, fantastic weather, critically undercrewed in the RHS, all pointing to a nightmare reserve period. In actuality it turned out to be the quietest reserve period I’ve done in my time at BA, putting my feet up in front of the Telly and the football with only four trips in the entire three weeks, the last one of which I actually phoned current ops to request as it cleared Heathrow at 07:50 on the final day of the reserve block. Go figure.

Sampepper93

22nd Nov 2018, 10:10

Have the Sim on 4th Dec 0930. If anyone on this forum is the same. Send me message. Would be great to chat with you!

VJW

22nd Nov 2018, 13:22

Have the Sim on 4th Dec 0930. If anyone on this forum is the same. Send me message. Would be great to chat with you.

You can message BA and have them forward your info onto your sim partner. That's what mine did to get hold of me a few years back.

Phantom4

22nd Nov 2018, 15:08

VJW. They are reluctant to do that now.

Jwscud

22nd Nov 2018, 16:42

For those of you wishing to join, suggestion is in the vicinity of 300 DEPs needed in 2019, both short haul and long haul. DEPs certainly to the 777 and 787, I am guessing the 747 too but not the 350/380.

student88

23rd Nov 2018, 10:41

Just FYI, if you join BA on the 747 in 2019 there is a good chance that it’ll be as a cruise pilot (initially) due to training capacity.

RexBanner

23rd Nov 2018, 11:08

Paid the same and because you won’t be doing any two crew stuff you’ll have a far easier time of it than if you were bottom of the pile on JSS disaster rosters. What’s not to like?

wiggy

23rd Nov 2018, 11:49

Paid the same and because you won’t be doing any two crew stuff you’ll have a far easier time of it than if you were bottom of the pile on JSS disaster rosters. What’s not to like?

True,, though the destination list might be a bit err, restricted....

student88

23rd Nov 2018, 12:52

Current three crew trips: CPT, JNB, YVR, LAX, PHX, NBO, SAN, MIA, LAS, DEN, SFO

..all heavy both ways giving you artificially higher seniority because the rest of us will be fighting over the operating seats on routes like CPT, PHX, SAN, SFO etc :sad:

So yeah, I’d be making the most of it too!

Daddy Fantastic

23rd Nov 2018, 14:54

Are DEP getting sent mainly to A320 or does it vary quite a lot between FO and SFO with experience?

The Blu Riband

24th Nov 2018, 09:54

Current three crew trips: CPT, JNB, YVR, LAX, PHX, NBO, SAN, MIA, LAS, DEN, SFO

But don't whine about being type frozen.........:hmm:

Stocious

26th Nov 2018, 19:20

Are DEP getting sent mainly to A320 or does it vary quite a lot between FO and SFO with experience?

Seems totally random. Flybe DEPS with no jet experience going to 777, ex FR 737-8 going to A320. Just pot luck.

Not sure what you mean by FO and SFO, you'll all start at FO.

DuctOvht

27th Nov 2018, 06:25

I don't have a problem with DEC's, as long as every BA pilot has had the opportunity to take that command. If there is an eligible, frozen pilot who wants a command and BA hire a DEC, then I got a problem.

I hope that I have c 4,300 pilots who feel the same.

Buter

Amen. Can’t imagine there would be many of us who would disagree.

As as has been mentioned elsewhere though, bottom of a very long seniority list on seriously uncompetitive money....who would want it?!

wiggy

27th Nov 2018, 07:03

Not sure what you mean by FO and SFO, you'll all start at FO.

I’m making an assumption here :rolleyes: but I read DF’s post as asking if your posting on arrival on BA depended on whether you were coming to BA having been a low hours FO vs. having been a higher hours SFO..

Agree with all in your reply.

wiggy

27th Nov 2018, 07:07

But don't whine about being type frozen.........:hmm:

Yep....and with respect to joining another fleet it is really not a good idea to whine about “taking one for the team” in the context of doing 3 HKGs in a month...oh the horror.

JulietSierra6

27th Nov 2018, 09:45

As as has been mentioned elsewhere though, bottom of a very long seniority list on seriously uncompetitive money....who would want it?!
I’m one of, if not the most junior taking it. As you asked who’d want it...

Living within 15 mins of LGW with young children still a while away from school age I’m happy to take it. I’m well aware of life at the bottom at LGW (It wasn’t long ago) and it isn’t all that bad to be honest. As long as weekends off isn’t absolutely paramount things are actually not too bad at all. Very personal decision obviously but while not competitive it is still more money. If I really don’t like it I can apply for part time and be in the same financial position as I am now or; 5 years down the line, bid RHS LH.

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 10:29

MikeAlpha320

27th Nov 2018, 10:57

We are our own worst enemy. The managers are not stupid.

Couldn't agree more.

JulietSierra6

27th Nov 2018, 11:21

And that, JS6, is precisely why terms and conditions for the junior end of the command scales will not improve. All the while people are prepared to do the job for below par reward, BA will certainly allow them to do so. I understand your train of thought, that it is more money for you so why not, but at the same time BA are laughing all the way to the bank. It is the same argument people who constantly pick up overtime make. “I might as well be earning more money for the same work.” However, it means BA get away with employing fewer pilots so everyone has to work harder and again, BA are laughing all the way to the bank. We are our own worst enemy. The managers are not stupid.

Hang on, I haven’t reinvented the pay scales. I and you alike knew what they were when we joined. Where you consider it acceptable to take command (if available) on those scales is personal choice. If a LH command suddenly became very junior would you be accusing them of lowering T’s & C’s for taking it? Out of interest at what pay point does it suddenly become acceptable to take command?

I have made a personal choice for my family and I to be in the seat I want to be in at the base of my choice if (read when) the industry takes a downward turn and the current levels of movement stop.

Enzo999

27th Nov 2018, 12:24

Hang on, I haven’t reinvented the pay scales. I and you alike knew what they were when we joined. Where you consider it acceptable to take command (if available) on those scales is personal choice. If a LH command suddenly became very junior would you be accusing them of lowering T’s & C’s for taking it? Out of interest at what pay point does it suddenly become acceptable to take command?

I have made a personal choice for my family and I to be in the seat I want to be in at the base of my choice if (read when) the industry takes a downward turn and the current levels of movement stop.

Agreed and good on you for taking it. The reason nobody wants SH command are clearly not financial because a year 12 SFO would be rewarded very proportionately for taking the job. They don’t want it because their lives are too comfortable on LH and they lack motivation to make the change. Don’t go blaming Junior guys for taking a job you don’t want, espically when they had no influence on determining the pay scales, unlike some!! Are you suggesting someone turns down a 30 percent pay rise to do the same job in a different seat just because EasyJet pilots get paid more? It’s BALPAs job to bargain for the collective not the individuals, unfortunately our union are too distracted by bunk dressings and cockpit cleaning to actually care.

Secondly any attempt by junior guys in increase their pay would almost certainly be met with horror by many within the BA community who have been very vocal on various forums that any attempt to improve their conditions would be blocked because it’s “robbing Peter to pay Paul”! So you won’t let us get improved conditions then shout at us when we pick at the crumbs you guys have left. And for anyone wondering why BA is such a fractured, unpleasant working enviroment there you have it!

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 13:08

Sorry, my post has clearly come across incorrectly. I am not knocking anyone for the decisions they make. It is acceptable for anyone to take a command whenever they deem it appropriate. It is not my decision to make, and I am not knocking anyone for it, just as I would not tell someone who picks up overtime not to do it. I am simply pointing out that it is good for BA when people choose to do so, and terms and conditions will not improve while it is happening. Just as BA will not hang up on the cost cutting and efficiencies until people are leaving for better pastures. It is all about market forces, and if there are people who will do it, the reward is not going to improve, even if that reward is not as good as at other companies. BALPA cannot pluck improved terms and conditions out of thin air.

Just for a little more education on why senior long haulers do not tend to take short haul commands; it is not quite correct to say things for them on long haul are too good. The biggest thing is the overall reward consideration. A NAPS long hauler has a collosal tax bill upon obtaining their command. It is so large that they are working entirely for free for the first couple of years, and instead handing their wages to the government. The junior guys do not have that bill and so do not work for free for a few years. So the senior long haulers have generally decided the short haul command reward is not appropriate, even though the money BA are handing over is more than for their junior colleagues. ie the market forces are different depending on whether you are NAPS or not. I am in the fortunate position to be senior enough for long haul command within the next couple of years, but I am very much in two minds whether I should even take that when the time comes. I probably will do it, but it certainly will not be for the financial reward because it will benefit the government far more than it will benefit me. I know plenty of people who will not take a BA command, long haul or short haul, because the reward for them is not enough. A far greater number will never take a short haul command because the reward is not great enough. However, BA do not currently need to improve the reward because more junior colleagues who do not have the crazy taxation, consider the reward acceptable.

wiggy

27th Nov 2018, 15:16

...any attempt by junior guys in increase their pay would almost certainly be met with horror by many within the BA community who have been very vocal on various forums that any attempt to improve their conditions would be blocked because it’s “robbing Peter to pay Paul”! So you won’t let us get improved conditions then shout at us when we pick at the crumbs you guys have left.

I’ll be honest and say I’m struggling with that perception, I think however it has been custom and practise from the company POV for a while to suggest that improvements in one area of T&Cs should be self funded by cuts in others, and as a community we are stuffed if we think that is the way we should proceed.....do you seriously think the senior p/middle ground/ should forgo any improvement in T&Cs in order to fund improvements in T&Cs for the junior at a time when the company is making record profits?

As for “robbing Peter to pay Paul” the last time I literally saw that expression used was in a forum debate about the (dire) Maternity provision for female pilots, where one or two of our well meaning but IMHO naive colleagues suggested the community should forgo an element of next years pay rise in order to improve maternity benefits...again this was seriously being suggested at a time when the company is making over a billion in profits......

We need to be pressurising the company into divvying up some reward across the board for everbodies hard work, not arguing that those on Fleet XXX should be subsiding those on Fleet YYY, or those with a seniority number of less than 2000 should be taking a smaller pay increase to top up the payrise of those with a bigger senority number...

and yes...I do agree with what was mentioned earlier, we at BA can be our own worse enemy...and the management know it.

Enzo999

27th Nov 2018, 15:27

Max Angle

27th Nov 2018, 15:30

a pay rise and increased pension payments to do the same job from a different seat?
Think you will find you are doing a different job from a different seat.

Enzo999

27th Nov 2018, 15:48

I’ll be honest and say I’m struggling with that perception, I think however it has been custom and practise from the company POV for a while to suggest that improvements in one area of T&Cs should be self funded, and as a community we are stuffed if we think that is the way we should proceed.....or do you seriously think the senior should forgo any improvement in T&Cs in order to fund improvements in T&Cs for the junior at a time when the company is making record profits?

As for “robbing Peter to pay Paul, Last time I literally saw that expression used was in a forum debate about the (dire) Maternity provision for female pilots, where one or two of our well meaning but IMHO naive colleagues suggested the community should forgo an element of next years pay rise in order to improve maternity benefits...again this was seriously being suggested at a time when the company is making over a billion in profits......

We need to be pressurising the company into divvying up some reward across the board for everbodies hard work, not arguing that those on Fleet XXX should be subsiding those on Fleet YYY, or those with a seniority number of less than 2000 should be taking a smaller pay increase to top up the payrise of those with a bigger senority number...

and yes...I do agree with what was mentioned earlier, we at BA can be our own worse enemy...and the management know it.

That expression seems to get used regularly. The idea of scrapping PP34 has been floated several times and each time gets met with outrage mostly because people on PP24 believe that the money for that would result in a lower pay increase for them. I even remember reading a tread entitled something along the lines of “PP34 reps are coming for your money” and it attracted a lot of comments.

Imagine if BALPA came back from the pay negotiations and gave the following choices, 1) A global 5% increase for 3 years, or 2) Scrap PP34 and everyone gets 2.5% for 3 years how do you recon that vote would go? Think I can guess.

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 16:24

Enzo, if I was on the 34 point payscale, I would not be pushing for its removal. BA will not reverse that kind of a decision. What I’d be pushing for is a lessening of the gradient, with a rise for pp1 and a reduction for paypoint 34. That would be in BA’s interest for attracting new entrants, and in your interest because none of you are on the top paypoints yet, and you’d get a payrise now when you need it. If you did that, pp24ers could not claim you are robbing from them, and you could still have your across the board corporate rise which is what we will all end up with anyway.

bex88

27th Nov 2018, 16:36

BA is a broken place. We are divided by LH, SH, PP24, PP34 and so on.

The simple truth is BA was well rewarded but we have seen the market shift and we have been left behind. We have seen pay deals attached to productivity increases which result in little to no real pay rise. We work our ass off now for little more take home pay. 75% now is like full time 8 years ago. Brilliant, they cut the salary effectively by a 1/4. The biggest issue is our work load. Why join a airline which pays more on a 5 on 4 off when you can join BA for less and work 6 on 1 off 5 on?

until the union gets a back bone and ballots for strike action it’s going nowhere. Never ever thought I would think like that but I am fed up. Jam tomorrow, invest today. Same story again and again, we are not sharing in the success we are helping to deliver.

As far as pay goes. There is a huge disparity from the top to the bottom between market rates. Don’t take a percentage pay deal, take a flat fee. Everyone gets the same from FO to CP, LH to SH.

Barcli

27th Nov 2018, 16:41

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 16:51

“Unpleasant working environment”? Which fleet are you guys on? I genuinely do not recognise this description.

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 16:54

Bex88; everyone gets the same straight value of payrise rather than a percentage. Does this apply across the board to cabin crew and ground staff and baggage handlers etc. too? If not why not?

Time Traveller

27th Nov 2018, 17:00

The flight deck can be the nicest environment in the world, but if you feel trapped in a very unequal and exploitative company structure, I know from experience that it can feel very unpleasant.

student88

27th Nov 2018, 17:05

Enzo999

27th Nov 2018, 17:05

“Unpleasant working environment”? Which fleet are you guys on? I genuinely do not recognise this description.

This is kind of the point, we don’t work for the same company so you wouldn’t recognise what we are describing.

UAV689

27th Nov 2018, 17:11

seen some mentions above that new upgrades get paid less than at ryr...is this true?! what are they taking home now? thats a sorry state for the industry

bex88

27th Nov 2018, 17:15

GS Alpha. Of course not. We work completely different jobs with differing market forces, qualifications, responsibility and in different business areas.

Pay rise, pilot A gets 7k. Pilot B gets 14k. How do we justify that one. We have captains doing the same job for nearly half the money of others. The bottom end of the pay scales are disproportionately underpaid and under rewarded.

Where are we? Forgotten on the A320 fleet. Why is it LH guys get bedding and more credit to go to CAI than the airbus guys (and girls)

Student 88: I have worked for 4 different airlines and I can assure you BA has become the worst. It was not always so but the division and changes to SH have caused it to deteriorate beyond recognition.

GS-Alpha

27th Nov 2018, 17:28

Of course not. We work completely different jobs with differing market forces, qualifications, responsibility and in different business areas.
I see, yet you think long haul and short haul, captain and first officer, are equal in all of those things?

BAP

27th Nov 2018, 17:34

BA is like a super tanker, any change will never happen overnight, even though its obvious that change needs to happen.

So many of our T&C's a based on legacy and out of date reasoning that simply do not match the current reality.
For example:
Why is LH pay more that SH, Why do LH get larger potions of food, Why do LH get pre-departure sandwiches when SH crew are the ones running around between aircrafts all day. Why do widebody fleets get duvets on LH flights when the equivalent narrow body LH flights doesn't, why is a 4-5 day trip on SH, flying every day, worth less credit than a LH trip with several days off down route, how come a LCA day trip is worth the same credit as 2 full days at work and 6 sectors, why is it okay for a SH 2 man-crew to fly 4 sectors, on a 11h duty day, which sometimes can be very challenging, if the weather is bad, or even a 2 sector night DME, yet on LH we need 3 crew to do one sector... I could continue. Our T&C's are totally out of date and most definitely favor LH. (Some of the above are obviously trivial, yet the duvets on LH was recently improved, which was proudly announced by the chief pilot... I challenge anybody to highlight an area where SH trumps LH? Apart from ones desire to sleep in your own bed. (This requires you do be very senior though), and perhaps the increased work satisfaction.

It can never be the individual that needs to turn down an opportunity, for things to change. That is simply crazy to suggest. It is BALPA's job to argue that certain parts of the work force has fallen behind the market rate. And yes this may mean that certain groups are rewarded more than others in a pay review, (btw I have no skin in the game, as I have passed the point on the pay scale where it matters) however nobody is stealing from anybody. The reality is that, certain work groups have been hit disproportionately compared to others, for a long period of time. Doesn't this require correction? This combined with NAPS is the reason for SH commands being so junior.
It's madness to have a workplace where employees taking on a large responsibility, i.e the legal responsibility of jet, yet someone on LH can just enjoy the lifestyle on more money, as it financially unattractive to go to SH.

I take my hat of to the junior colleagues who chose to challenge and better themselves careers wise, even though the pay isn't what it should be. Its a great achievement to get a jet command. And had the pay and T&C's been better, well then maybe the opportunity wouldn't be there, but then at least these individuals could have enjoyed some seniority on LH as the naturally progression would have worked like in the old days.

BALPA need to review every work group individually and compare them to the market rate. An RPI+ payrise is relevant across all the fleets, but other T&C's need to reviewed based on individual fleets. Just like maternity pay needs to be reviewed, as its well below what should be expected from a big employer like BA. And yes, that may mean that BA will be unwilling to increase the package for some of our more privileged colleagues, but looking at it from the top of the tree and say I am not giving anything up, even though others are paid too little etc, seems to be detrimental to a unified work force.

As mentioned above. I do not have skin in the game as such, as I have passed the point where it really matters if the deal is improved further down on the list. So the above is really just my observation. It my be naive to suggest that some work groups can be rewarded whilst still maintaining the market rate for others, but that should really be the mission of BALPA. Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...
Anyway, I will get my coat.

MikeAlpha320

27th Nov 2018, 17:48

What I have found quite eye-opening about working for BA is the amount of pilots we have who don't realise how good they've actually got it, mainly due to only ever working for one airline.

(that applies to our legacy cabin crew too)

As I commented on post earlier about overtime making things overall worse for the community this seems to be another 'issue' I recognise in BA. Ive flown with several SH Airbus captains who comment 'on how good they've got it' but yet are paid less, work more and spend countless more hours sat in uniform in T5 than pretty much all other short haul companies in UK. As Bex refers to fixed rosters and salary at other UK carriers how can we seriously sit and say 'how good we've got it'. Take away the so called 'kudos' for working for a flag carrier and suddenly the contracts for short haul pilots are pretty poor in comparison. If I didn't want to give LH a go I would have already gone back to previous. SH at BA is not a nice place to be.

bex88

27th Nov 2018, 17:50

Yes actually. We all join BA as flight crew. We all start as FO’s, we all have to pass a command course. We are one department under flight ops. Black and white we move people from A to B.

SH captain, LH captain......completely equal. You can argue it any way you like but the bottom line is SH shift more people more often. LH shift more people in one hit but less often. We need each other.

Most failed conversion in BA.....LH RHS to SH LHS.

I want to see more equality but the evidence points to increasing disparity and unfortunately a “Jack alright attitude” from many.

bex88

27th Nov 2018, 17:55

BAP:

That is without doubt the best post I have ever read on this subject. 100% correct. Nobody can deny what you have said.

MikeAlpha320

27th Nov 2018, 18:01

Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...
Anyway, I will get my coat.

Great post BAP. If only more senior pilots recognised this we might actually get somewhere. Seems as though everyone is willing to jump over one another to make sure they're better off personally. Total lack of unity and thats why the company will continue to do as they please with little/no response from BALPA.

Having flown with a rep recently he raised a good point. How can we ballot to strike when the mentality is as above? Are LH pilots going to walk out over a ridiculous duty rig on SH and totally un-sustainable rosters? At least JSS might see some of the SH summer horror rosters replicated on LH. Then again- it will be junior pilots flying them. Will the guys/girls higher on the list care if they're getting the first choice trips and the days off they want?

N.B not suggesting LH is easier than SH- but as mentioned in post above a lot more protections and better conditions seem to be found on LH.

2 Whites 2 Reds

27th Nov 2018, 18:34

In my very humble opinion the only way forward for long term prosperity is to fight tooth and nail via Balpa to eliminate the things that divide us.

The pay scales would be a logical but ground breaking place to start. Unpopular as this may be, for a number of reasons, I genuinely think it’s high time we scrapped the various pay scales between LH/SH and all sit on one.

Incremental payscale to reward long service, great. But ONE master payscale.

The fact is guys & girls, until we’re more united as a work force the company will run rings around us by poking and widening the cracks between us.

Just my opinion and I realise that it’s unlikely to be a popular one on certain circles. That said, it’s surely undeniable a move in this direction this would send shockwaves through the upper echelons.

Cheers

Tay Cough

27th Nov 2018, 19:28

Sure lets give the TSC on LH pay point 24 a 10pct pay rise if we can, but other areas may need some attention first, especially if his or hers T&C's are market rate already...

So for the sake of argument, give the TSC his 10% payrise. That will equate to sum of perhaps £20k. Give that to everyone. The fixed amount but from a different perspective.

Pickled

27th Nov 2018, 19:40

These posts make grim reading. It may be worth summarising why BA pilot T&Cs fell so far so quickly (IMHO). It would seem that the previous BACC prioritised keeping all BA pilots on the same seniority list and resisting any plans to set up a low cost BA operation at LHR. They achieved these aims and the rapid growth in BA pilot numbers and commands is the reward. The downsides are numerous as so much was sacrificed along the way; the introduction of a B pay scale, the loss of a final salary pension, SH working to EASA rules and perhaps worse of all, the erosion and eventual loss of BidLine. Numerous other quality of life measures were also given up. A BA manager famously remarked that the "BACC were far more effective at controlling pilot costs than BA management."

Anyone contemplating joining BA should seek as much advice as possible from mates on the inside. In particular anyone aged about 40 or over should seriously think through their likely career path. A first LH command aged 55+ and the consequent severe deterioration in lifestyle may not be a realistic option when the opportunity finally arises.

Anyone living more than about 2 hours journey from LHR should also think carefully. BA are focusing on commuting time for a number of reasons. BA pilot fatigue reports have increased by a factor of 40 since EASA rules were implemented and are likely to rocket far higher if the new JSS rosters are anything like the trial runs. BA will examine whether commuting time was a significant factor in generating fatigue, they would much rather we all lived in Slough or Staines and travelled in by bus (reducing their never ending car park issues).

Sadly it is no longer a "happy" place to work and that is unlikely to change.

RexBanner

27th Nov 2018, 20:04

wiggy

28th Nov 2018, 06:00

Talk of regulating commuting is pie in the sky. Probably greater than 70% of the company commute in one form or another. The fallout from the audit only focused on the small minority of people who were genuinely taking the piss with their commuting habits.

You might be right but TBH I’d still advise people thinking of joining BA to plan to “commute with caution”, at least initially. As Pickled points out the company has made it very clear (for example through the recent missive from AB) they may well examine how and when you got to work if you file a ASR/MOR for fatigue reasons.

The cynical amongst us might suspect it is part of a plan to dissuade people from filing such reports......

bex88

28th Nov 2018, 07:14

Ok. Positive post alert......maybe it’s the coffee talking but when I called in fatigued I was generally surprised how good the DFCM was. Stood down, ASR filed and nothing more was said.

I am sure fatigue reports will sky rocket. I was afraid to raise a ASR for fatigue in case of come back. Having been fatigued and seeing how much it affected my operation I will file one every time. It’s the only way things will change.

If your report is reasonable I think you will be supported. If it’s not then I believe that is when the hounds are released........excellent!

Coffee is wearing off so I will end on a positive note. Weathers lovely

pilotting

28th Nov 2018, 08:41

Does anyone know whether BALPA already did some proposals for salary improvements? and are there some rumors? I think that it would be good if they look to the other legacy carriers e.g. at Lufthansa and Air France - KLM? Despite the relatively weak profit (compared to Lufthansa and IAG) Air France- KLM pilots got 4% pay rise and company agreed on more off-days for trips.
To be honest I think BA should not compare itself with Ryan Air and easy Jet but with the legacy carriers.
Then you see that BA pays less for CPTS on SH primarily and First officers LH. Considering the good financial results, profit share would be appropriate. From a financial perspective BA currently is best in class compared to the other legacies, this should go hand in hand with improved pay and more days off. This is a market trend and BA should follow this. Pilotjobsnetwork. com gives a good indication about payscales among the legacies.

wiggy

28th Nov 2018, 09:26

Does anyone know whether BALPA already did some proposals for salary improvements? and are there some rumors? I think that it would be good if they look to the other legacy carriers e.g. at Lufthansa and Air France - KLM? Despite the relatively weak profit (compared to Lufthansa and IAG) Air France- KLM pilots got 4% pay rise and company agreed on more off-days for trips.
To be honest I think BA should not compare itself with Ryan Air and easy Jet but with the legacy carriers.

There are plenty of rumours and optimistic expectations but there is at least one poster here closer to the talks (which are only just starting) than I am so I’ll let them comment if they are able to do so....

I wouldn’t disagree with how benchmarking has been handled....but the big big problem that the BACC and the members will need to tackle in order to achieve a meaningful percentage rise to basic pay is the determination that BA management have always displayed to avoid a pilot specific pay deal, on the grounds that any such “special” deal will encourage unrest and dissatisfaction in other areas ( yes I know..). Any fairly minor pilot only “add ons” that have been plugged into deals in the past have tended to have been well disguised.

Jock Trapped

28th Nov 2018, 10:19

This is grim reading. I’m mid 30s with a young family. Not too long ago I attended interview/group session. They gave us a presentation before we left and the guy seemed very honest, question asked on JSS they couldn’t answer as no one really knows. Showed us the pay scales and the slightly more pay LH get but the most interesting thing he told us was the rosters, showed us quite a few and even said himself, he wouldn’t take a SH command as he is top 20% of FO list. Gets almost every weekend off and all the trips he wants, took him 11 years to get there.
I so want BA and want to be a Captain at some point not to far away (within 10 years). First few years at BA hard rosters then start to improve and get more seniority which helps. Get offered command on SH end up bottom of the list again along with not being rewarded financially. I know people have said don’t join BA for the pay but then even joining for the lifestyle doesn’t seem that good anymore unless you are early 20s.

In a similar position, 30’s, young kids, part way through the recruitment process and have started questioning whether it’s worth leaving a LoCo close to home. Could I ask anyone in the know if starting on SH and accepting more than the fair share of weekend work, what are the chances of multiple (2? even 3?) days off in a row mid-week? How senior for this to be realistic? Would LGW be different? Asking primarily to avoid relocating from somewhere North and hoping BA at least viable. Cheers.

champair79

28th Nov 2018, 11:05

Hi Jock Trapped,

The truth is that no one really knows what sort of rosters JSS will create. However, working every weekend being junior is almost a given and of course that means that your days off will generally be in the middle of the week. I think it really depends on the season and how short of pilots we are. In the summer, you may struggle to get 3 off in a row (with some regularity anyway) but with the CAPs much lower in the winter it’s certainly a possibility. Remember as well, you can bank withdraw and swap trips if you need to tweak your roster.

I can’t speak for LGW as I’m junior SH LHR but I imagine it’s similar. Summers = work your ass off, Winter = loads of time off. LGW has typically been a lot more seasonal than LHR so bear that in mind. The company is about to bring some LGW FOs up to LHR on secondment for a few months (marketed as a ‘lifestyle opportunity’). It suits those FOs as they can keep the flying pay of their pay packet up instead of it falling off a cliff at LGW in the winter. Of course it suits BA too as they can artificially lower CAPs at LHR for the first few months of next year before working us to the max for the rest of the year! It’s about them balancing resources and maximising their ‘assets’. They’re not stupid.

champ

bex88

28th Nov 2018, 11:56

Jock Trapped. The reality is as a junior pilot on any fleet you will work most weekends. In the region of 90% and you will get 2 days off mid week. Probably Tuesday, Wednesday. I would expect you would see something like 5 on 2 off as a general pattern. You will get some 3 day blocks off but less so in the summer. You can expect to finish late and start early, at least it seems that way. JSS is a unknown but looking at my dry run results my rosters are far far harder under JSS. Try 16 days work with a weeks leave for example or a summer example had me working 20 days. 6 on 1 off, 5 on 2 off and repeat.

If you have a home base with a loco and command think very very carefully. I can not recommend it but if your drive is to one day fly long haul and you are willing to take a significant pay cut and reduction in lifestyle then go for it. BA has put huge strain on my family and if it were not for my wife being so understanding I would probably be another failed family story.

Just think very carefully at the pros and cons. Some love it, some hate it.

Thegreenmachine

28th Nov 2018, 12:38

6 on 1 off, 5 on 2 off, really? That sounds dreadful and harder work than the summer just gone at the orange loco.

Another here about to join the LHR sh ranks. Fully aware it wasn't going to be a cake walk and with family situation similar to others weekend work doesn't bother me at the minute. However, that sounds particularly punishing.

I understand the roster restructuring is causing uncertainty for the future but how do typical (if there is such a thing) winter/summer CAP translate into duty/block hours?

hunterboy

28th Nov 2018, 15:33

As someone that started with BA in the regions, if I was working elsewhere for a half decent carrier, I wouldn’t leave it to come to BA. Virtually everyone had to be chiselled out of their regional bases when BA shut them down for various reasons.
‘All the above is true. BA is great if you are a PP24 skipper with decent seniority. Otherwise, it’s hard work, with lots of down sides . TBH, it is only going to get worse, what with BREXIT, extra runways at LHR on the horizon. BA doesn’t do change very well.

wiggy

28th Nov 2018, 15:44

Now you’ve gone and done it..you’ve used the B word......I think before that happens the biggest clear and present danger for many might be something beginning with J (”lifestyle, stuffed” 3 letters)...

wiggy

28th Nov 2018, 16:21

Also I know BA recruitment is full steam ahead at the moment so if you joined recently by this time next year 400 extras would be behind you.
If you join at the end of that chain and BA close up recruitment for 2 years am I right in thinking you could be bottom of a pile for a while thus taking even longer to move LH/ improve your roster?

In very basic terms and in a nutshell..yes.

Now course if people keep retiring and the company pilot headcount/fleet size doesn’t reduce it is unlikely recruitment will stop completely (in the foreseeable future) and so you would hope to trundle up the list, but if there was a major event leading to a downturn you could end up “stuck”.

FWIW from a roster improvement POV you can also end up effectively stuck in place on your fleet if you somehow get into a fleet whilst very junior (directly as a DEP or perhaps because temporarily the fleet isn’t attracting senior bidders but you’ve taken a punt and bid across) and then subsequently the more senior pilots then decide to bid across to the fleet and slot in above you..not likely on shorthaul but can happen on Longhaul..ask me how I know.......

Best bet had always been to join at the start of any recruitment bulge...the trick is actually being able to spot when that is happening.

RexBanner

28th Nov 2018, 17:40

extra runways at LHR on the horizon

Still amazed at the amount of people who think this is going to happen any time in the foreseeable future.

ATTCS armed

28th Nov 2018, 17:47

Still amazed at the amount of people who think this is going to happen any time in the foreseeable future.

I plan to go in 2032. I won't ever use the third runway.

Jwscud

28th Nov 2018, 18:54

Some further positivity. I am junior ish (77% from the top) on the 777 and have a very enjoyable lifestyle. The JSS dry runs have given me a roster roughly akin to what I’m after. The flying is generally enjoyable and the colleagues good for a beer at the end of the day. I am generally working 16 or max 17 days a month. It can be tiring, particularly if you get a sequence of trip/2 days off/trip for a few weeks. It seems I may be about to pick up an early LGW command after less than 4 years in BA.

The only thing moving me out of my long haul seat is the desire to see my kids every day and take some of the weight from my wife. When the kids have grown up a bit and are self-sustaining I will be able to go back to long haul and show my wife the bright lights of Riyadh and Abuja, or Boston in a Nor-Easter in January :E

I should say I already lived within an hour of LHR and was still in the RHS of a LCC when I joined.

pilotpete123

28th Nov 2018, 19:38

How are BA communicating any possible issues with Brexit on the horizon? My employer is making a fair bit of noise regarding possible changes to the pilot establishment so it would be interesting to see how other airlines are viewing the future....

RexBanner

28th Nov 2018, 19:49

Very little official Comms, seeing as BA do not fly passengers within European borders I very much doubt it’s an issue at all aside from how it affects the wider British economy.

wiggy

28th Nov 2018, 20:23

How are BA communicating any possible issues with Brexit on the horizon?.

The party line is there will be nil effect...as of this moment I’m not quite as optimistic as some appear to be.

If some in the company are pushed (e.g. I know that some of our Foreign national, foreign resident commuting crewmembers have been a bit spooked about the issue of entering the U.K. prior to reporting for work) the backstop ;) answer is “ that will be down to government policy, nothing to do with BA”.

wiggy

29th Nov 2018, 17:18

...and back to pay and those who were asking about any possible rises in the near future...hot off the press, this is from a joint union statement (from BALPA plus UNITE plus the GMB) released earlier today:

“
The joint unions are therefore seeking to agree the following increases: RPI+1.75% (or 5% if higher) from 1-Jan-19; RPI+1.5% from 1-Jan-20 and RPI+1.25% from 1-Jan-21.

We also believe BA is able to give staff a much larger share in the success of the business, aligning the interests of the company, its shareholders and staff. To achieve this aim, the joint unions are seeking to agree (i) an enhanced, all-employee profit-sharing scheme based on a pot equivalent to 7% of BA’s annual operating profit per year and (ii) the introduction of a voluntary sharesave scheme.

....”

Jumbo2

29th Nov 2018, 19:54

Can't comment on which type they use these days. However I can comment on the first bit. Don't believe those people. There is no truth in it what so ever. Even looking from an economic point of view, the assessment isn't cheap for BA. Why let people go through all the stages of the selection if they only want rated people to save costs while we need people ASAP. I guess for those who unfortunately didn't make the grade this time around it is easier to blame it on the system.

During the assessment they will verify the earlier assessment stages (your personality), see how you interact with your colleague and lastly how quickly you can learn new things.

From what I remember when I did it, it is hard work however the instructors are going the extra mile to make it as pleasant as possible.

Good luck!!!

Flightlevel100

29th Nov 2018, 21:54

At a risk of going off topic from the above, does anyone have any details regarding the Stage 3 process? I've got a date booked and have heard from a number of people who have been through the process (those who gained successful offers were already rated on a type in the current BA fleet, those who were unsuccessful were rated on other ac types).

Also, with the 767 now retired, will the process still be conducted In the 767 sim for the foreseeable?

Any clarification appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

I am not rated and so was my buddy during the assesment. We both passed and got offered a starting date (sim was nov 24 and we got a starting date offered today so there isnt really a holdpool at the moment). If you have a rating or not does not matter. It is a very fair sim assessment in a relaxed atmosphere. For now the sim assesment is still done on the 767. I also did it on the 767. Mainly because that one is/was most available. The assessor said BA was trying to sell it, but failed to do so due to lack of interest. So it could change at any stage in the next few months I guess. Better study all pitch settings ;-).

2 Whites 2 Reds

29th Nov 2018, 22:23

Not involved in that area but have been in TBC a fair bit lately, the 767 sim has been chocca with assessments.

It was being sold but that fell through and tbh BAFT are making an absolute fortune selling it to third parties. I believe it’ll be the default sim assessment tool for the foreseeable while the 747 sims are busy with conversions.

MikeAlpha320

30th Nov 2018, 10:30

2 Whites 2 Reds

30th Nov 2018, 10:52

They'll be over-run with applications with news of our wopping pay rise :ok: (well the ambitious starting point, anyway :E)

Agreed. It'll depend what can be negotiated bonus wise but tbh I'd rather just have to cash in my pay rather than have a bonus linked to figures that can be manipulated.

The backstop of 5% is OK but fairly unambitious given our current unprecedented levels of profitability. I'd have gone in at 10% with a view to being chipped down a bit to 7% or so. Given the rapid deterioration in our fundamental t's and c's over the last few years I'm more concerned what the company are going to make BALPA give away in return. That said, there are limited big ticket items left to go for.

Victor Mike

30th Nov 2018, 14:11

The 767 sim will be kept and used up until the point we need another sim bay - they already have started installing the 350 sim, so nothing on the imminent horizon

antonov09

1st Dec 2018, 06:02

Has anyone any idea when DEP will open up again for applications ?

Serenity

1st Dec 2018, 16:06

How will LEVEL coming to Gatwick affect things there??
Routes, a/c based and crew??

DuctOvht

1st Dec 2018, 16:38

You appear to know something we don’t...

RexBanner

1st Dec 2018, 17:03

The paranoia around Level is both unmerited and unbelievable. The premium cabins of the “beach fleet” are almost always packed and make BA (/IAG) an absolute fortune. Rhetorical question on the way, why are IAG going to destroy all that yield and cannibalise BA simply to give punters cheap tickets and thus reduce their profit margin significantly? Last time I checked businesses were in operation to make money not to be charities..

Pickled

2nd Dec 2018, 07:28

BA are continuing to focus on the commutes to work of pilots. More pilots were contacted by management last week about their journey time during an audit completed in April. BA seem to be going beyond EASA rules and requiring pilots to have a minimum of 8 hours rest in a hotel room before report, even if they travel to an airport hotel on their day off before starting a duty day.

Once BA management start a drive towards a goal they generally get what they want in the end. It potentially means more time away from home if you live more than about 2 hours from LHR. Think carefully about how this may impact you in the long term. The practicality of being able to comfortably fly for BA whilst living wherever you choose is under threat, particularly for junior pilots.

skaterboi

2nd Dec 2018, 08:07

Pickled, do you know what maximum commute time BA have decided on?

wiggy

2nd Dec 2018, 08:21

I’d very much second what Pickled has posted..all of it.

When the company decided to audit commuting earlier this year the stated intent was supposedly to stop those “who took the p***” (e.g. commuting overnight immediately prior to a Longhaul report) and according to most sources (union and even one or two management) those who indulged in sensible travel arrangements would have nothing to worry about...

Unfortunately it now seems the company, having now got a mechanism in place to monitor in minute detail aircrew “commuting” by staff travel are going back through the data and now some on short haul are being clobbered. It appears BA management have been ringing up and interrogating anyone up who they suspect might have flown into base by staff travel (e.g. in an evening) and then might have had marginally less than 8 hours available in a room for rest prior to a shorthaul report (e.g.the next A.M.).

do you know what maximum commute time BA have decided on?

I gather a short haul pilot who had a nominal < 1 hour drive into LHR but who allowed himself 90 minutes on occasions to be safe was told by management that if his journey really took 90 minutes he ought to consider taking a hotel at base between duty days.

As Pickled says, once BA management get their teeth into something, and get an agenda, they keep screwing things down as far as they can.....so at interview the answer is “ ......living in Hounslow, Longford or Colnbrook”

Pickled

2nd Dec 2018, 08:26

Thats a good question skaterboi. A pilot on LH reserve is allowed 2 hours to reach the car park, that would seem a reasonable start point. There may be a notice from BA soon clarifying their expectations.

It must be very hard to determine rules because we are all different. Many believe that being a passenger on a shorthaul flight to LHR is a heck of a lot less stressful than driving on the M25, fighting to find a car park space within BA’s creaking parking system and then taking a bus to the report centre.

This has been a “grey” area, allowing each pilot to determine whether his/her journey allowed them to report for work sufficiently rested to able to fulfill their legal obligations. That is similar to ensuring adequate rest is taken during the day before a night flight (no matter what pressures might exist at home), or determining whether fit enough to operate, or whether fatigued.

It would seem that BA now feel required to be much more specific about journey times to work.

Tay Cough

2nd Dec 2018, 08:57

But it doesn’t trouble them quite so much if you’re on a night stop and don’t get eight hours. Just sayin’.

wiggy

2nd Dec 2018, 09:10

But it doesn’t trouble them quite so much if you’re on a night stop and don’t get eight hours. Just sayin’.

I know, similar for a night flight/day stop/night flight......

It’s been educational (putting it politely) seeing the effort that seems to have gone into micro monitoring and micro managing potential rest time at base outside of company time.

They’ll be insisting flight crew wear Fitbits 24/7 before long...

RexBanner

2nd Dec 2018, 10:28

wiggy

2nd Dec 2018, 10:41

Ultimately it’s unenforceable. They have no way to monitor which hotel room you have stayed in, the Premier Inn, Ibis, take your pick are not going to release information to BA of room bookings and when you arrived/checked in therefore you can tell them what they want to hear, they have no facility or ability to check. Let’s not make a mountain out of a molehill folks.

That maybe but the whole continuing saga is indicative of the “BA way” and certainly something to be aware of.

I’d agree that management can’t track hotel rooms but from what I have heard they are looking at the time the inbound flight arrived, next days report time, making an assumption about travel time to/from accommodation and if it is less than the magic number then phone calls have resulted.

Of course if you use surface transport or fly in with an operator other than BA .........

RexBanner

2nd Dec 2018, 10:59

Exactly Wiggy and that, coupled with some ultra hardcore driving commutes (I’m aware of crew and not just cabin crew driving down from Manchester same day for an early LHR report) makes a mockery of the whole thing. Easyjet staff travel a very precious commodity nowadays.

antonov09

2nd Dec 2018, 13:18

DEP opening again anytime soon? Anyone heard any rumours or have any idea?

vrb03kt

2nd Dec 2018, 18:51

DEP opening again anytime soon? Anyone heard any rumours or have any idea?
Don't know why you'd want to after reading this thread! :}

Barcli

2nd Dec 2018, 19:06

Why has bex88's post been deleted ? weird

student88

2nd Dec 2018, 19:36

So much bitter BA bashing - yet still a better option than most of whats available in the UK.

RexBanner

2nd Dec 2018, 19:53

So much bitter BA bashing - yet still a better option than most of whats available in the UK.
Don’t recall easyJet ever spying on their staff tbf

bex88

2nd Dec 2018, 20:03

Barcli, I deleted my post because I was getting involved in something I don’t need too. I am pretty fed up right now and I only seem to be adding negative fuel to the fire. I need to be a little more balanced......well at least until Dec 11th when I will no doubt be up in arms over my first JSS roster.

I hope that makes sense. I am not as miserable in person as I appear on here.

Student88, with my new balanced view unless you are still in the honeymoon period or are on long haul I doubt you can back up your statement. EZY, RYR......better in pay and rostering. (For my status at least)

Riskybis

2nd Dec 2018, 20:06

Depends what you are looking for ......
cant wait for my 1.5% pay rise . Which will no doubt be reduced to 0.5% !!!! Takes the pi&&

wiggy

3rd Dec 2018, 06:46

So much bitter BA bashing - yet still a better option than most of whats available in the UK.

..But I think it’s best people planning on joining BA are at least aware of some aspects of the company culture before hand, rather than realising, once the honeymoon period has worn off and the filtering has stopped, that sometimes things are done in an interesting manner, perhaps not replicated elsewhere.

A few examples:
After months (years?) of investigation nobody seems to be able to solve the problem of “lost”/abandoned cargo dollies being dumped behind stands, frequently causing pushback delays out of T5, No-one seems to be able to solve the crew car parking problems or provide a robust bus service back to the car park late at night...all of which adds hassle to the working day, especially for those on short haul.

OTOH it seems time, effort and no doubt money must be spent chasing down individuals to see if they might have only spent 7 hours and 59 minutes in a hotel room that they as private individuals have booked and paid for and have used whilst off duty.

It’s a funny old company sometimes....

clvf88

3rd Dec 2018, 07:44

no-one can solve the crew car parking problems

Out of curiosity, am I right to infer there is a lack of spaces? If so, are there any contigencies available?

RexBanner

3rd Dec 2018, 08:16

Lack of spaces and thousands of pounds worth of damage to the cars that do miraculously find a space due to leaking corrosive materials..

It’s all good though as Alex and Willie don’t have to park there.

wiggy

3rd Dec 2018, 09:49

Out of curiosity, am I right to infer there is a lack of spaces? If so, are there any contigencies available?

There’s a lack of space, has been for years but it seems to be an unsolvable problem..there are various contingencies, such as parking at a large BA staff car park over at Hatton Cross and get a bus to/from T5 - not easy if you are returning to LHR late at night, get permission to use one of the T5 Hotel Car parks, or use one of the public (pay) car parks and then claim the cash back from the company. Bear in mind of course there’s the requirement not to spend too long getting to work........

The car park corrosion issue that Rex mentions is another long standing (> 10 year at least) problem.

clvf88

3rd Dec 2018, 09:52

:ugh: Rex / Wiggy - excellent

Barcli

3rd Dec 2018, 16:01

:ugh: Rex / Wiggy - excellent

+ bex88 ( also quite correct)

student88

3rd Dec 2018, 16:41

Lack of spaces and thousands of pounds worth of damage to the cars that do miraculously find a space due to leaking corrosive materials..

Vinegar is quite expensive these days huh?

Lime scale, you make it sound like a nuclear power station is leaking. Why do people continue to park on level 4 when they know the risk? It's almost like they're go out of their way to find something else to get :mad: off at BA with. You see the guys on Yammer fizzing away, its quite funny. I refuse to park on level 4, or anywhere within the multi storey - outside or on the roof. If I can't find a space, I go to the Sofitel - if I'm late, I'm late - not my fault. (I'm pretty sure the lack of spaces is being exacerbated by the fact that they're fixing said roof).

Cargo dollies stopping us from pushing back? Oh well, not my problem either - I won't be flying faster to make up for the lost time. Focus your energy on the things you can change, for everything else just sit there and leave it to someone else to fix. Do you think other airlines are pitch perfect?

MikeAlpha320

3rd Dec 2018, 16:45

So much bitter BA bashing - yet still a better option than most of whats available in the UK.

Have you been at 'most' then? Not sure what is bitter about painting of our personal picture of BA. Here lies the problem with pay negotiations e.t.c- the idea that BA is superior. When in actual fact, there are far better options (Short Haul- productivity/pay) elsewhere.

wiggy

3rd Dec 2018, 16:52

student88

I agree with a lot of that though I'd be darned careful about the Vinegar solution..I have it on good authority that's not the best solution ;).....

As a dyed in the wool long hauler I'm personally quite willing to sit back and let the grown ups unravel any mess they have made but I suspect for those on shorthaul it is perhaps not quite so easy to be sanguine about delays when ultimately they pay by reduced time between sectors/ reduced rest so I don't blame them for getting wound up..

And yes, I'm sure no other airline is perfect, but do you know of any other airline that has started to audit "commuting" in your own time in quite the (seemingly increasingly intrusive) way that BA do?

RexBanner

3rd Dec 2018, 18:17

Riskybis

3rd Dec 2018, 18:29

cessnapete

3rd Dec 2018, 19:05

reminds me of BA SH , briefing LH 3 times in a day . Also doing Landing Performance Calcs for the longest runway in the country for an A319

in LH a while back most crews used common sense and airmanship re Briefings. On a multi sector LH Trip, first sector comprehensive Brief, then on subsequent days preface said was “ Standard Brief ”” and with only salient points of present location mentioned if required. Otherwise your other crewmen might fall asleep with boredom!!
Re the present Nice ‘overkill’ approach brief. Used to see the same thing on Carnarsie 13L/R into JFK. Handling pilot battling with FLC, Hdg selections towards the final turn, with the A/P engaged. . Much easier after the VOR, look out the widow,foiiow the strobes, disconnect the automatics and fly the thing (B744) Although, I believe now BA SOPs do not authorise any ‘hand flying’ down route without A/T engaged.
EK nearly had a disaster there recently A 380, nobody looking outside lateral profile on A/P, forgot about vertical bit. ATC emergency call to go around when dangerously low.

Callsign Kilo

3rd Dec 2018, 21:53

And therein lies the rub. What BA are doing is not only gross invasion of privacy it also reinforces their attitude of pilots as people who cannot be trusted. If you’re in any doubt about this go have a look at the RIM entry for Nice. What is basically (for any other airline) a VOR with a visual turn onto final is turned into the biggest mountain out of a molehill you could ever find towards what is essentially a pretty straightforward place to get in and out of. Just look out the window and fly the thing. No wait, BA don’t trust you to do that so they write paragraph after paragraph of procedure simply to encourage you to leave the autopilot in. Talk about deskilling and over-complication

Most airlines do this. Generally a reaction to someone f***ing up somewhere. Two airlines that I have flown for do exactly the same thing. I know of one major ME carrier that is equally as culpable. Aviation is continually dumbed down & this creates its own problems which are sometimes all too evident on the line. BA is no different in this department.

Anyway, thread drift I feel. The overall opinion that I get with regards to joining BA now as a DEP is ‘buyer beware.’ Although the numbers were less than a handful, a few guys have made it back or have joined my outfit after brief spells at BA (both SH & LH fleets). Something, that once upon a time, was completely unheard of. You didn’t leave BA once you were in! When I heard of this, it made me a little disappointed if I’m truly honest.

wiggy

4th Dec 2018, 06:45

It’s a big company, just about any policy on anything at BA gets referred to the lawyers, and not just the big issues...

Re automation: If an aircraft goes off the end because of a handling stuff up such as being a bit fast on the approach the lawyers are concerned that somebody in Flight Ops will get dragged up in court to explain why the company didn’t make the use of Mr Boeing or Alphonse Airbus’s autothrottle/autothrust mandatory.

Similar with commuting...The theory goes that “legal” has hinted that BA itself might be held to blame if an individual uses BA facilitated staff travel to get to work and then is found by the authorities to have breached some aspect of the EASA regs when it comes to fatigue.. So Flight Ops looked hard at those who indulged in “extreme” commuting. However having got such a process in place it appears somebody now feels they now have no choice but to continue drilling down into the data and look in detail at the travel arrangements of absolutely anyone who arrives by way of staff travel into LHR/LGW at any point prior to report (I suspect they don’t feel there a similar need yet to look at those who drive or travel in by other airlines because BA don’t directly facilitate such travel...and as yet BA don’t have access to that data.)

Ultimately and has rightly been said you do get the impression that often the company think pilots are not to be trusted. I am sure those who say that there are worse outfits are correct but as I mentioned earlier BA can be a funny old outfit and it is completely process driven...Now in my experience most of us I think successfully work around or through that aspect of the operation, especially when away from Mission Control, but I’d agree with the comment that it is certainly “buyer beware”...

Tay Cough

4th Dec 2018, 08:25

Although, I believe now BA SOPs do not authorise any ‘hand flying’ down route without A/T engaged.

This doesn’t apply on the 744.

wiggy

4th Dec 2018, 08:55

This doesn’t apply on the 744.

That (manual thrust in manual flight on the 744at BA) is of course true TC but isn’t that simply down to the potentially destabilising effect of the pitch/power couple, rather than some largesse on the part of the lawyers or a belief in the office that only the 744 has truely superior pilots....:ooh: :ooh: :8

WonderBus

4th Dec 2018, 09:34

A quick health warning for the pprune/yammer regulars, maybe start looking at the glass half full:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/08/why-complaining-rewires-your-brain-to-be-negative/

Barcli

4th Dec 2018, 11:48

So is the SH Captain still commuting from Australia / NZ ? Or is it now OK cos he doesnt use BA ?

wiggy

4th Dec 2018, 13:21

I know the last individual I came into contact with (quite recently FWIW) who did that sort of commute with BA was very very diligent in making sure he was compliant with EASA/BA regs. Must have been darned tough on his home life but horses for courses I guess, plus a prt time contract.

Of course mixed fleet cabin crew combine short haul flying with operating the SIN/SYD/SIN 9 day trip, so whilst to/from Oz plus shorthaul sounds outlandish the company roster something along those lines... but you’ve obviously got to stick to the rules.

king surf

4th Dec 2018, 14:01

So is the SH Captain still commuting from Australia / NZ ? Or is it now OK cos he doesnt use BA ?
The problem will come for those not diligent enough is when an incident occurs which involves the CAA. They will go through everything.
Some Pilots think they can get away with it because BA can’t really police it

student88

4th Dec 2018, 15:34

I believe now BA SOPs do not authorise any ‘hand flying’ down route without A/T engaged.

Fake news - not true.

RexBanner

4th Dec 2018, 15:57

The problem will come for those not diligent enough is when an incident occurs which involves the CAA. They will go through everything.
Some Pilots think they can get away with it because BA can’t really police it

I would imagine for varying reasons (inability to regulate the room temperature - cough cough Hannover cough - or losing two hours sleep due to the awesome and scientifically proven new EASA regs) that amongst the first wave coming into Heathrow in the morning probably a good half of the time the pilots have not had 8 hours sleep or anywhere near and that’s on a good day. Are we also liable then? What do you think would happen if we all en masse turned around to BA and said, sorry guys not rested in accordance with OMA we’re not operating your aircraft back to Heathrow this morning; accident could happen you see, old chap. But it’s fine for BA to play judge, jury and executioner when the boot is on the other foot isn’t it? I’ve had commutes where I’ve arrived at Heathrow gone ten o clock at night for a 06:00 report (naughty me) but I’ve been far more rested than I have been coming back from Helsinki with a two hour time change and a 03:00 alarm call. I know if I had an incident on the latter duty I’d be pointing the finger squarely back at the authorities for trying to make out that adequate rest has been provided in that scenario and I’m pretty sure I’d win in a court of law (were I alive to see it). Double standards to say the least.

But we’ve had this conversation before.

GS-Alpha

4th Dec 2018, 16:38

Rex
Certainly very few long haul pilots can claim to have had 8 hours rest immediately prior to flying home. For example, on West coast USA trips, most people wake at about 3am or 4am local time, before reporting for the flight home somewhere between 3pm and 8pm local time. If they are lucky, they may have achieved 2 or 3 hours of sleep just prior to their wake up call.

However, I believe the rules require fully rested and acclimatised at time of report at base. To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable, because the rules are designed to take account of the lower likelihood of decent rest whilst in the different time zone. BA are probably cracking down on this because they are slowly recognising faitigue is becoming a serious issue, and they want to make sure they are fully covered in that court room should that fatigue related incident occur.

Reversethrustset

4th Dec 2018, 16:48

Or is it more to do with the fact that if fatigue is "managed" they can squeeze more and more out of pilots rather than their chances in court?

wiggy

4th Dec 2018, 17:16

Probably a bit of both.....

As GS has said they want to make sure they have their ducks in a row if there is a fatigue related incident.

There might well be gains in efficiency if it is known that management proactively “manage” / investigate the background to fatigue reports.

Jumbo2

4th Dec 2018, 17:26

Student88, with my new balanced view unless you are still in the honeymoon period or are on long haul I doubt you can back up your statement. EZY, RYR......better in pay and rostering. (For my status at least)

Why did you go for the command when you did?
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.

RexBanner

4th Dec 2018, 18:00

To argue in court that you would not have achieved that downroute and so it is fine to do it before report at base is probably not winnable.

That’s not my argument. I’m just pointing out that BA and the regulator are holding you to standards that they themselves do not abide by. To state, as EASA do, that you are acclimatised if you go east by two time zones so you ought to be able to manage to get the same amount of rest/sleep as a result of that state of “acclimatisation” is clearly bullsh1t and can be demonstrably shown to be so. They’re setting you up to operate in an unrested state because nobody can skip forward two hours and get to sleep at the required time because your body hasn’t adjusted to that, same as it hasn’t adjusted when the alarm wakes you up at 03AM (5 o clock local) the next day. For the regulator to put so much emphasis on rest but at the same time you can effectively lose two hours of sleep and yet that’s not a problem, well that’s having your cake and eating it, it’s not science and there’s so many holes in it that it’s ripe for challenge.

bex88

4th Dec 2018, 18:12

Jumbo2. The rostering has and continues to get worse. The market has changed and the pay at BA has been left behind. Both of those changed since I took command.

Sometimes you you need to try something to really understand it. Command achieved, got the stripes and it really is not worth it. The pay could be doubled and it still would not be worth it. The rostering is really really hard. A few of us will certainly be taking a stripe off to go RHS LH.

May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?

cessnapete

4th Dec 2018, 18:42

Fake news - not true.
Thread drift, but,
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!

Jumbo2

4th Dec 2018, 19:45

May I ask, are you SH or LH? Would you take a SH command?

of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?

I know you had been more then 5 years in BA when you went to the left but listening to junior FO's who are less then 2 years in, getting a command and then start complaining about the pay and lifestyle are beyond me and I really struggle to have any empathy for them. As a junior FO going for command (less then 5-8 years in) you might make 400 ponds more a month (because of less efficient lines) but you will get all the leftovers on your roster with plenty of TASS (BA has got the most transparent rostering system I've seen in any airline so it is easy to see what rosters junior P1's are getting). If they don't realise this before going for their command then they haven't done their homework or where foolishly blinded by the P1 status. The pay structure in BA hasn't changed (I'm pretty sure if you take the average pay of all SH P1's and compare that to other UK operators it isn't that far off) and neither did the rostering policy change in the last few years (until JSS now but we only know in 7 days how that is working out).

So with all the information available before one decides to bid for a command (nobody is forcing you to bid for a command anyway) there is no point of complaining about the T&C's afterwards is there?

fruitbat

4th Dec 2018, 20:15

of course you can; I'm in the top 25% Shorthaul by now and have a fair bit of bidding power but staying well clear of a command. The reason; the extra pay is not worth the sacrifice in lifestyle. With the time I've left in this career (over 35 years) why rush things?

We have to work until 75 now?! Please no....

bex88

4th Dec 2018, 20:43

Jumbo2. Fair point about super junior commands after 2 years.

At 25% I guess you have been in about 5 years. The rostering has changed to EASA FTL’s and there have been a number of changes to bidline rules. That all makes a big difference but the crux of it has been we have been short of numbers. The pay issue is one which has come about because of the improvements in terms elsewhere in the industry. Rostering has always been bad when junior on any status but even guys who have seniority are working some pretty brutal lines.

The problem is very few people are even prepared to bid for a command. I admire the fact that you can make that choice. It seems daft that we have experienced guys like yourself who won’t take a command yet we need to delay courses of some guys so they have the minimum hours.

Easy fix, and yes it will never happen. Seniority as a FO based on DOJ. Seniority as a captain based on the date you pass your command check. It’s the RYR way. And no it’s not a serious proposal so let’s not get into that.

Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more.

Yes there are reasons I have not left and options at BA is one of them.:)

Fruitbat :D

Black Pudding

4th Dec 2018, 22:07

Why did you go for the command when you did?
I don't think the pay package changed since you got your command (at least didn't get worse), neither did the rostering. So before you applied for that 4th stripe you could have probably figured out you were going to get very little extra pay for a worse lifestyle. There is a reason commands are going so junior.
Nobody forced you to go for a SH command.

Could it be to get the PIC hours and leave

Buter

5th Dec 2018, 00:08

Thread drift, but,
Ok just quoting a Relative of mine BA A380 pilot. Says their SOP doesn’t allow disengagement of A/T during normal route ‘manual handling’ auto throttle is mandated at all times. Said SOP applies to all BA types except B744 as Wiggy says. Unlike Lufthansa A380 for instance who, like BA 744 A/P out A/T out when manual. And Virgin mate who says they are allowed to practice manual speed control route flying as conditions permit on Airbus 330/340.
Appears Health and Safety rules in BA over applied individuals airmanship!!
But what do I know, I started in Airlines when sex was safe and flying was dangerous!!

Auto thrust in at all times on A380. Makes it more of a PITA, IMHO.

B

RexBanner

5th Dec 2018, 04:30

One thing to possibly contemplate about delaying your command to protect your current lifestyle is that sooner or later it’s inevitable that procedures/technology will be in place to remove the heavy crew on the longer LH sectors. That’s the direction we’re going in I’m afraid. In the First Officer redundancy phase that will inevitably follow the seniority list will not protect you whilst you slot into a LHS ahead of someone more “junior” to you A) because the cost to the company will be unacceptable and B) because it’s flat out illegal. Food for thought.

How’s that for black cloud thinking, WonderBus? NUTA’d the **** out of that one, didn’t I? ;-)

GS-Alpha

5th Dec 2018, 10:51

I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade? The pilot numbers currently required, both within the company and globally, mean the risk of redundancies is minimal, even with a significant global downturn. There will at some point be a bit of pressure on more senior pilots to take their commands, simply so they can get their NAPS pensions uplifted before the end of the transition period, but the end of 2023 is still a fair way off yet.

RHINO

5th Dec 2018, 11:56

Either way, fact RYR, EZY etc spend less time in uniform, they have better rostering and earn more.

[/QUOTE]

and that it is it in a nut shell. The world has moved on....

RexBanner

5th Dec 2018, 13:43

I do not disagree that technology might enable pilot numbers per flight to be reduced one day, but do you honestly believe redundancies are inevitable when that happens? Or that it will be happening any time in the next decade.

Airbus are already working on this technology. Correct me
if I’m wrong but I believe that the A350 is already capable of a fully autonomous emergency descent. Of course if there’s the technology available think of the amount of pilots BA will be in surplus on the LH fleets. We’ve seen Alex Cruz attempt to outsource everything that moves and put all the ground station staff in the USA at risk, do you really think BA are going to keep a surplus amount of pilots in work that are not needed purely out of goodwill?

VinRouge

5th Dec 2018, 13:57

It will require a change of EASA FTLs.

That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe.

I wouldnt strike for much, but a reduction in safety standards to this gross level, suggested above, would be one reason I would back a strike, for the simple reason that it would be european companies that receive cost benefit, with significant ímpact on risk to our passengers.

I think the corporate world realizes this, which is why there will be no debate about it happening, no lobbying for a change and therefore no change.

RexBanner

5th Dec 2018, 14:25

It will require a change of EASA FTLs.

That will be fought to the death by pilots unions across Europe.

Just like EASA FTL’s were to begin with?

VinRouge

5th Dec 2018, 15:11

Just like EASA FTL’s were to begin with?

So where is your supposed NPA? Or is this just scaremongering?

The new FTLs were required to harmonise fatigue regs across Europe and were broadly similar to CAP371. IIagree though that they were a derugulation and a move in the wrong direction. The suggestion that augmented rest is simply binned off is not going to happen as it's used globally by even the likes of the GCAA.

There are too many examples of why sustained single pilot cruise ops is an utterly awful idea for it to change.

GS-Alpha

5th Dec 2018, 15:51

You’ve got to get this technology approved. Then you’ve got to actually get those aircraft into the airlines. A company is not going to just replace its entire fleet overnight. The fuel savings of modern jets are massive compared to the savings you are speaking of, and yet we didn’t immediately bin the 747 overnight. BA pilots are unlikely to have to worry about your scenario for at least another decade or two. It certainly isn’t making me think I need to rush out and get my command before I get made redundant.

bex88

5th Dec 2018, 16:27

Anyone read the special feature in Flight OPS news with KG?

interesting read. Some points I picked out
* We need to have a adult conversation
* Some bidline rules are no longer relevant
* More hours in a day but fewer days at work, achieved by SH one crew doing 10 hour days with fixed links. LH replacing 48 Hr slips with 24 hr ones.
* LH are rewarded slightly above market rate
* SH are market rate. But then says we are not way off, we need to look at the blended market rate.
* As a workforce we are demotivated
* No reason why BA pilots won’t fly LEVEL aircraft. Same model as Air Canada and Rouge.

Take it as you will but it sounds like any pay deal will be attached to more efficiencies and sacrifice of bidline rules. I like the sound of some of it but I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home.

Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure.

VinRouge

5th Dec 2018, 17:01

Automation: A friend of mine works for a large company developing AI. Aviation is the last place it will come because of the cost, the regulatory testing, public opinion and the consequence of failure.

AI /neural network technology, read true machine learning, is completely 180 out on how a manufacturer demonstrates to a regulator that they are compliant with certification specs. How.do you demonstrate compliance with loss models for example when as soon as you get past single point of failure? There are literally millions of combinations of system failure at this step. So that means your MEL dispensation makes your aircraft uncertifiable as you are unsure of how the system can respond. And if it will respond in the same way. We may see cargo go single pilot ops in our lifetime, but you then still have the issue that airworthiness includes considering those that you fly over, as well as those on the air system.

Your insurance premiums will be a lot higher than the cost of that second pilots salary and pension methinks.

wiggy

5th Dec 2018, 17:07

Bex...

Thanks for the heads up..just had a look.....in a desperate attempt to keep within one intent of this thread (info for prospective new joiners) it looks like if Klaus has his way they may be able to enjoy LAX night-stops (thinks “legacy agreements” and the age old question of why Seattle isn’t on the West Coast :E .....maybe some day soon it will be...)

I fear we will work max hours but not see more days at home. .....

You are probably right, the company aren’t going to sit back and let bigger gaps on rosters go to waste....

RexBanner

5th Dec 2018, 20:16

JPJP

5th Dec 2018, 21:31

Just read it. I love the way he’s spinning a 24h nightstop in LAX as being for our benefit, not the company’s. My God the guy is absolutely deluded if he thinks we can’t see straight through that.

You have no idea how bad this can get. The goal is for BA to look and feel like a Legacy first class carrier to the public, with pilots compensated at the low end of low cost carrier rates. Think about what ‘blended market rates’ means - pick the worst compensated A320 carriers in Europe and then blend their Terms and Conditions. Perhaps throw Norwegians 787 rates into a compensation comparison for LH. Then outsourcing and dividing groups (long haul/short haul, pensions, Level etc.) to the furthest extent possible.

In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his.

This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip.

To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would.

DuctOvht

6th Dec 2018, 05:57

Fake news - not true.

Apart from the 744, care to elaborate on which fleet that’s not the case?

wiggy

6th Dec 2018, 06:32

I think it’s fleet specific but on my fleet it most certainly is true.

It is...I can”t speak directly for the 78 but I suspect at BA now the 744 is the only fleet exempt from the “autothrust/throttle required in “manual flight” rule.

DuctOvht

6th Dec 2018, 06:39

It is...I can”t speak directly for the 78 but I suspect at BA now the 744 is the only fleet exempt from the “autothrust/throttle required in “manual flight” rule.

Sorry Wiggy, I edited my post. I can confirm the 787 is very much autothrottle only.

2 Whites 2 Reds

6th Dec 2018, 07:23

Sorry Wiggy, I edited my post. I can confirm the 787 is very much autothrottle only.

As is the 777. Having come from the 76 where it was routine to disconnect the A/T on approach, it’s taken a a bit of time to adapt to my left thumb doing nothing at the appropriate time.

pilotting

6th Dec 2018, 11:05

You have no idea how bad this can get. The goal is for BA to look and feel like a Legacy first class carrier to the public, with pilots compensated at the low end of low cost carrier rates. Think about what ‘blended market rates’ means - pick the worst compensated A320 carriers in Europe and then blend their Terms and Conditions. Perhaps throw Norwegians 787 rates into a compensation comparison for LH. Then outsourcing and dividing groups (long haul/short haul, pensions, Level etc.) to the furthest extent possible.

In some ways the person in question is quite direct. He was once asked about the efficacy of pilots sitting around for hours between flights. He responded that your idea of efficiency, is not the same as his.

This is the moment when you need BALPA firing on all cylinders and a united pilot group. He’s dealt with large well funded unions. A weak BALPA is like catnip.

To remain on topic - would Virgin Atlantic hire him ? Rhetorical obviously. But Cruz would.

This is exactly what i named earlier. BA is a legacy, and as they say themselves, with highest standards, a best in class airline, and require the best in class pilots (BA is proud to tell that only 5%-10% of the DEP applicants gets into BA). Then they should not measure their pilots with with the average. But should compare themselves with the other EUROPE legacies, having the same requirements as BA. So: Air France- KLM and Lufthansa (Lufthansa got +10% pay rise in the new CLA). And not with Eurowings, Thompson, Norwegian, Wizz, Flybe. You cannot compare even, because Eurowings, and Norwegian have fast upgrades to CPT LH. Which is not so much the case at the legacies.

RexBanner

6th Dec 2018, 11:35

If Klaus gets his way and we start slipping for 24h in destinations like LAX with a 10+ flight time I will be taking an early command and be out the door the moment I get 1000h PIC.

GetTheQRH

6th Dec 2018, 11:40

Does anyone find that there's much operational seasonality at BA?

i.e Can you expect your roster to quieten down/surviving standby's towards the winter time or is it pretty much full-on all year round?

bex88

6th Dec 2018, 11:55

LGW = quieter winters
LHR = generally busy all year round. It does slacken a little in the winter but not much. Usually we go from chronically short of crew to just short of crew. If the numbers were right then yes you could expect it to be a little easier. It is nothing like the change you see in charter ops though.

wiggy

6th Dec 2018, 13:21

I'd agree with bex regarding LHR longhaul.

A big chunk of the passengers are on Business travel, which isn't that seasonal, a lot of flights are too/from the southern hemisphere so different holidays, different seasons come onto play, plus what might have been regarded as off season once upon a time is now when those with flexibility try and travel in the hope of cheaper fares.

End result is any monthly variability you do notice won't be a lot and tends to be down manpower fluctuations on fleets and the odd outlier like engine issues taking work from one fleet and lumping it on other.

2 Whites 2 Reds

6th Dec 2018, 18:48

Just read KG's Special Feature..... wish I'd read it before dinner, nearly threw up on the patronising corporate cheese.

The next battle lines are just starting to make themselves known....more efficiency, squeeze that lemon even harder!

As he seems so keen to give us more time at home at the expense of our our downtime down route I wonder if KG will commit to more days free of duty per annum or a maximum number of trips per month to avoid these new hotel savings and reduced days away being turned into MORE trips on our lines. I think I already know the answer to that.

Surely he knows we can all see through this? Generally a positive chap but I didn't sign up for all this tbh. It's worse than the low cost operator I joined from!

RexBanner

6th Dec 2018, 20:11

I truly hate this company (not the staff) to its very core. The people in charge have shown their true colours, they just embody corporate greed and the very worst of capitalism to its utmost degree. £1.5 Billion of profit? Nah that’s not enough, we need to squeeze the staff even more and reduce their terms and conditions so we can wring every last drop of profit out of it. So greedy and incredibly short sighted. I know this is going on everywhere but the contemptible people in charge of this outfit take it to the ultimate extreme.

Enzo999

6th Dec 2018, 21:26

FACoff

7th Dec 2018, 01:54

I truly hate this company (not the staff) to its very core. The people in charge have shown their true colours, they just embody corporate greed and the very worst of capitalism to its utmost degree.

Being only several months in, I'm afraid I've reached the same conclusion. BA's obsession with cost is far more evident than in the LCC I worked for previously. It's really sad to see.

I can't help but wonder where the tipping point is in BA. SH have been pushed to the limit, now KG is after LH. At what point are we going to collectively say no? Will it ever happen - are we THAT divided? Wiil we bend over relentlessly to pay for KG's indoor swimming pool?

My previous airline had a well established, robust, non punitive fatigue system - AND they were working better rosters than BA. AND they were better paid. What the hell have I joined.

DuctOvht

7th Dec 2018, 05:45

Sadly, I now often wonder the same thing.

wiggy

7th Dec 2018, 05:59

So to summarise rumours/hard news for this week:

The good news for many reading this is the company wants to recruit several hundred more DEPs in 2019 (though that’s apparently a lot more than “Finance” are keen on.).

There are some significant “howevers” that potential joiners need to be aware of when deciding whether BA continues to be a sensible/workable option:

1. The company are really going to go after what is left of Bidline rules, especially the trip construction/rest parameters, and are very keen on reducing time off.

2. BA are (according to “traffic” elsewhere last night) really trying to screw down on travelling to work pre-report...A notice on this with company approved timings to be issued shortly.

3. Oh yes, the pay claim....

wiggy

7th Dec 2018, 06:18

I can't help but wonder where the tipping point is in BA. SH have been pushed to the limit, now KG is after LH. At what point are we going to collectively say no? Will it ever happen - are we THAT divided? Wiil we bend over relentlessly to pay for KG's indoor swimming pool?
.

I’m afraid one look at a certain forum will provide evidence that across the senority range we have colleagues who would rather eat their first born than actually vote to collectively say no.

GS-Alpha

7th Dec 2018, 10:24

I reckognised many years ago that BALPA is impotent within BA. The only way BA will ever stop the decline which seems to have seriously snowballed over the last few years, is for the pilots to either unite and strike under the leadership of the union, or for people to leave the company in droves. Union and BALPA are two opposing concepts, so there will never be a strike. Once people start leaving in droves, and I believe that time is only a couple of years away, it will be too late for BA because they will have let things deteriorate so badly that they simply cannot stem the flow of pilots to other airlines.

Riskybis

7th Dec 2018, 12:37

FlipFlapFlop

7th Dec 2018, 12:38

I have been flying for well over 10 years now. For nearly all of that a seat at BA was the dream. Then when it became a reality I chose to stay and move left at my LCC. I am so so glad i did. The corporate greed highlighted by Rex is destroying the brand from the inside.

BizJetJockey

7th Dec 2018, 13:15

This thread has started to look like something that should be in the Fragrant Harbour forum!! 😄

BitMoreRightRudder

7th Dec 2018, 13:15

Once people start leaving in droves, and I believe that time is only a couple of years away, it will be too late for BA because they will have let things deteriorate so badly that they simply cannot stem the flow of pilots to other airlines.

Where are we all going then? Which other airline is so much better that we will be leaving “in droves”. Very few BA pilots want to work overseas. Very few BA pilots want a SH only existence. So where are we all off to?

There are few better options for a UK based pilot, unless you want to be an A320 Captain with ezy/TUI etc based in the regions. The LH pay and conditions are no better elsewhere. I can only see junior SH captains leaving.

BA know this full well. Despite the angry talk very few people leave. There isn’t much else out there.

wiggy

7th Dec 2018, 14:39

For those "anchored" in the south east UK maybe, for those elsewhere I'm not so sure and I do think the company needs to be careful..

One or two some of the relatively new joiners I have flown with in the last year have already done homework and have made some interesting plans involving
work outside the UK..We've certainly ended up having conversations you would never have heard at BA even 5 year ago.

Maybe it'll end up like mixed fleet model - lots of churn...

pudoc

7th Dec 2018, 15:17

1. The company are really going to go after what is left of Bidline rules, especially the trip construction/rest parameters, and are very keen on reducing time off.

For someone thinking of joining, what does this all mean? Specifically speaking.

Back to back trips, less days off between them? Trip construction?

Panel3

7th Dec 2018, 15:31

[QUOTE=pudoc;10330424]

For someone thinking of joining, what does this all mean? Specifically speaking.

Back to back trips, less days off between them? Trip construction?
[/QUOTE
Basically bringing shorthaul in line with the worst aspects of Easy/Ryanair and Longhaul with the likes of longhaul charter flying without the seasonal variation and so will be relentless without the pay. The company are monitoring sector swaps (long haul shortening of trips, so another can extend by a day or so) hence a 24 hour slip in LAX, NRT etc. Unfortunately he has seen individuals doing it without complaint. I've been in 14 years and my advice would be, consider very carefully work/life balance. The unions' effectiveness has been discussed on here previously.

wiggy

7th Dec 2018, 15:49

For someone thinking of joining, what does this all mean? Specifically speaking.

Back to back trips, less days off between them? Trip construction?

Just to be clear the changes are unspecified, and are on a very senior managers wish list...

The big change he has specifically mentioned is that he would like us to consider reducing LAX from (the industrially agreed) 48 hour slip to (EASA compliant) 24 hour slip. The manager thinks this could well be popular with the troops because it would give them more time at home, and saves the company money on HOTAC.

Suspicions are once a specific 48 hour slip is dropped to 24 hours then the precedent has been set and all 48 hour slips on the longhaul network would get the same treatment and reduced to 24 unless EASA forced otherwise.

IMHO that means:

1. The days of actually being on a Long haul pilot and being able to “enjoy” a long range destination during a day free of duty might be curtailed/reduced, instead it will typically be: arrive, eat, drink (water only of course.....) sleep, a couple of hours sightseeing/shopping in the A.M. on day two, if you are up to it, then hotel, try to sleep again for an hour or two then it is call and back to work..and that will be almost everywhere. (I know..First world problem.)

2. Down the road without a doubt the company would then look at the time off at home generated by these reduced slips and try to squeeze extra work into the now larger gaps in rosters...it couldn’t be a lot because most folks in Longhaul are 800 hours plus but I could imagine most people could end up picking up an extra handful of trips (TLV, day MADs, BOS etc) in the year...so you wouldn’t end up spending more time at home....

3. Backs to backs...possible and happen now anyway, though pretty much only if you volunteer....

GS-Alpha

7th Dec 2018, 16:07

I agree Wiggy. BA will be aiming to employ the efficiencies of the mixed fleet model. They cannot give us short haul and long haul, but they can ensure we get a mixture low credit 3 day trips and high credit 3 day trips so we are all up at 900 hours, but not before the end of the year for some and unattainable for others (as currently happens).

Flying Clog

7th Dec 2018, 16:40

Wiggy just described verbatim what happened with us at Cathay years ago one of the many times they pulled the wool over our eyes.

RexBanner

7th Dec 2018, 17:13

Very few BA pilots want a SH only existence.

If Klaus gets his wish and LH destinations become nightstops then Long Haul may as well be Short Haul. If you’re not getting to see and enjoy the destinations (and it’s going to be a really difficult ask as Wiggy has already alluded to with the time available) then what’s the point in being a Long Haul pilot? It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.

2 Whites 2 Reds

7th Dec 2018, 21:08

Bumped into a BALPA rep today. I hope I wasn’t being fobbed off but KG’s shopping list is being viewed as utter tosh apparently.

Lets see. KG is picking a very big fight with a huge portion of the workforce and with lots of very senior people all at the same time.

Frankly I’m not sure I can carry on with this lot if this gets through. As I’ve already said, I didn’t sign up for this s***.

Time will tell.

Wireless

7th Dec 2018, 21:38

Happened at my previous too. Layovers reduced. I’ve always said JSS is only the first step of the grand plan [camera draws away to show white cat being stroked on a leather armchair] . JSS well placed to exploit holes in bidline rules which were specifically written with a sister system in mind. That system gone, tweaks to BLR already been happening for ages.

Limit the line hoarding of the newly created high credit 3 day LAXs etc with limits (sold to the workers as being of benefit to juniors). Then they’re sprinkled about the demographic forcing most rosters to contain more plentiful low credit items. Any day at home benefits nicely put up in smoke, Man hours utilisation achieved. Just one way [camera shows white cat now purring and weird kinky gloved hand reaches for the brandy glass]

BA. Can be a fantastic place to work. Don’t forget that those looking in. It’s not entire gloom. No one saying that. But the blacks are swamping the whites now. So the positives are holding less and less currency with each change. Especially if you’re junior trash like a lot of us. Such a shame. It’s increasingly draining. Often intimidating, not unfair to say almost Stasi-esque through its own actions sometimes (surveil your workers travel on personal time anyone?) and sometimes the comms read a little like a mafioso internal newsletter from the capos.

They now want champagne workers on a beer budget and they don’t mind admitting it. That’s bad. Very bad. That they’re starting to talk openly about it, amid such vast profits. If you join your joining a firm that’s making a fortune where terms are on a down slope. They’re not worried. Post bag’s full apparantly. And I think they’re telling the truth to be fair. It really will come down to personal choice.

I hope the union better will not suggest giving anything up for the “pay rise?. If anything I’d rather they treat lifestyle as a priority, like air. It’s up against the ropes as is. No concessions please.

looks like I picked the wrong year to quit sniffing glue.

Paperplanes89

8th Dec 2018, 07:29

If the 24h LH stopovers becomes a reality I’ll leave the company. Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs is a grim existence (granted not as grim as current situation SH 12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane and repeat) and not why I joined BA. I get the argument that a couple of days downroute somewhere nice gets ordinary after a while but the alternative would grant me zero job satisfaction. For a £2b profit company why can’t they just accept some hotel bills, look after crews wellbeing by a less fatiguing/more sensible roster by hiring adequate pilot numbers rather than just some well-being posters up in CRC. Another lb of flesh. That ‘recognition’ gala video nonsense that appeared in my inbox was vomit inducing, management seem to think if they just use the word ‘recognition’ in every other sentence that they are reacting to that ‘reality check’ employee survey.

It it could be a good place to work but the company is just out to squeeze everything from their employees. That’s the feeling I have as a ‘generation Cruz’ DEP after just 2.5yrs. Part time is the only way to survive a career here with your sanity and health. Sad as it just doesn’t have to be this way, a few tweaks and we could be the envy of every other airlines’ pilot workforce, as it stands BA is a cold, greedy and hideously corporate beast.

BitMoreRightRudder

8th Dec 2018, 07:30

It may well be the tipping point for a great many people. If I’d have wanted to be worked to the bone, slipping 24 hours in Long Haul destinations I’d have joined Emirates. I know I’ll put in place an exit strategy to leave this place if it happens.

I can’t argue with any of that, I just don’t see the alternative employer out there who will attract droves of BA pilots. Our T&Cs will be under attack until the supply/demand ratio tips in our favour. BA need 300+ pilots next year according to the manpower boffins - they will have more than enough pilots applying for those positions. That’s our problem. It’s very difficult to enact meaningful (positive) changes to our working agreements under these circumstances.

It’s pretty obvious “Santa Klaus” is coming for LH, and we have a pay claim in progress, so watch this space.

I agree with the comments above though, BA really isn’t all that bad. There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.

Globally Challenged

8th Dec 2018, 07:34

Aeroplane 12hrs, Hotel room 24hrs, aeroplane 12hrs
We do a variety of ops in business aviation and the above is the most tiring.

You arrive at your hotel having been on duty for 12 hours, awake for 15 and you are tired. Do you go to sleep for 8-9 hours and then fail to get any more rest for the 15-16 hours before your next 12 hours duty .... its difficult to manage and impacts on safety as you approach the highest work load period at the end of your next 12 hours strapped in to a jet.

12hrs aeroplanes, 12hrs hotel room, 12hrs aeroplane
This is actually easier (although much less fun), you get to the hotel, eat dinner, go to sleep, get up, eat breakfast and report for duty ... at least this is safer but very boring and not the shiny dream of working in a legacy.

Best of luck in the ensuing negotiations

Paperplanes89

8th Dec 2018, 07:39

RightRudder - agree DEP on A350 is awesome on paper, but bottom of the list, jss, and possibly a few hours downroute in (near?) future, max legal hrs, min legal rest, might get tiresome pretty quickly or just impossible to sustain a happy family/social/healthy lifestyle. I have no answers though, just bored/fed up on airport standby and opened up ppprune for first time in years. It’s probably not that bad...but fatigue makes everything worse and I’ve been feeling it for too long.

Thegreenmachine

8th Dec 2018, 08:19

RexBanner

8th Dec 2018, 09:36

There will be DEP offers onto the A350 next year for example - not many opportunities like that exist for UK based pilots.

Which is absolutely disgusting in my opinion. The company are seriously trying to tell us there’s not enough internal bidders? I know there’s a lot of people still frozen but a lot of those guys have done four years slogging it out on Short Haul maybe it might be the right time to reward them for that? No it’s time to slap them in the face yet again with more Long Haul DEP. Let’s face it virtually nobody joins this company because they want to do Short Haul, it’s the big selling point of BA and why the vast majority of us are here.

I’m sorry but the “Master Seniority List is the most important thing, you’ll slot in ahead of them when you move” argument just doesn’t wash any more. When exactly are we going to get to move? I wanted to do Long Haul whilst I was relatively young. That sure ain’t gonna happen any more.

Every Long Haul DEP (and there’s going to be a load of them this year by all accounts) removes a LH position that would have been available in one or two years. When guys ahead of us on the P2 Airbus status list can’t move across to Long Haul we stagnate behind them and can’t benefit from better rosters/bidding power etc. Long Haul DEP disadvantages everyone on the Airbus and I for one (and I’m not the only one by any stretch) resent it massively.

Reversethrustset

8th Dec 2018, 09:46

Surely with every aspect of the business under fire is it not time for the union to grow some balls and balance the power out a little? If you bow down and let them rear end you then you've only got yourselves to blame? Time for LH/SH/senior/junior to surely come together and make a stand. The "I'm alright Jack" issues at the top of the list has to be put to one side because everyone will have the sharks after their t&cs at some point in the future, the top needs the bottom's help and the bottom needs the top's help. Get with it before it's too late.

GS-Alpha

8th Dec 2018, 09:47

Rex, don’t worry, when you do eventually get to long haul, you’ll realise all these years of thinking long haul is easy and it’s only short haul taking the pain, was actually completely wrong and you’ll wonder why on Earth you’ve given all of these years to BA just to end up feeling fatigued and worthless, with no useful time at home and no useful time downroute.

hunterboy

8th Dec 2018, 09:49

Rexbanner ...I see where you’re coming from. You will merely join the masses of pilots ahead of you that have trodden the same path of resentment and disappointment in BA. As previously mentioned, this could be the best job in aviation if only it was run properly. I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA reps and the pilot workforce share the blame. Many of the changes don’t really affect reps that only fly once or twice a month, and the majority of pilots seem to be grateful to BA that they have a job and are unwilling to stick their necks out for anything. Lots of complaining but no action.

GS-Alpha

8th Dec 2018, 10:05

I came to the conclusion years ago that BALPA share the blame BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BA’s expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACC’s responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.

2 Whites 2 Reds

8th Dec 2018, 10:55

BALPA need to lead the pilots. The problem is, the BACC is made up of pilots. They are not negotiators, nor do they have any idea of the concept of leading members and encouraging them to think as one unified workforce. Instead, they act as BA’s expectation management team, allowing repeated targeted attacks at various minority groups of the workforce. BA hammer our terms and conditions using this technique, and will continue to do so until the BACC realise that whilst the members are indeed the union, it is the BACC’s responsibility to galvanise them as one. Together we are strong, but as it is we are incredibly weak, and we might as well be a non-unionised workforce.

Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.

king surf

8th Dec 2018, 11:13

Couldn't agree more! I've been saying for some time that we REALLY need to start targeting the things that divide us. The company would be fearful of a united workforce IMHO. When the classic divide and conquer is being countered and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude has gone we MIGHT stand a chance. Until then the company will continue to pick off various parts of work force off at will.

I say again, merge all of the payscales into one and start to reduce the myriad of differences between us. Once we're all on ONE payscale we can move forward TOGETHER. KG seems to be very keen on looking things in a "blended' way. Lets start with some blending of our own shall we.
it will never happen because for Many ba pilots “ it’s all about me”

GS-Alpha

8th Dec 2018, 11:32

2 Whites 2 Reds

8th Dec 2018, 12:47

You can’t just slam from reverse into forward gear. Getting everyone onto the same terms and conditions requires positive forward motion. I don’t think you can expect to push back against BA quite so aggressively straight from the off. That’s unrealistic in my opinion. However, first things first, we need to stop BA picking us off one by one. Once that has been achieved then we can work to reversing stuff. But even if no reversing happens, we’d be doing ourselves a massive favour just by stamping on the relentless chipping away.

I had a conversation with a colleague at work while the pension stuff was ongoing. It was clear he really wasn't happy and I said we need to all stand together so would support his camp ie NAPS members and vote for industrial action if the time came and those affected felt it necessary. In almost the same sentence his reply was "well don't expect me to go on strike for BARP"....lovely!

Drastic action is required and it's not a case of being agressive towards BA. It's simply a matter of unifying the workforce. I agree it's hopeful to think such a thing could happen but in my humble opinion it's what's required. Until we're more unified the company will continue to pick us off one by one and the Me Me / I'm alright Jack's play right into their hands.

Just to add, this tactic isn't unique to BA. They just do it better than most.

GS-Alpha

8th Dec 2018, 14:14

We need BALPA educating the community as to why supporting a cause which does not directly effect the individual is vital for the long term bigger picture of said individual. The problem is, that would bring us closer to strike action, and BALPA are scared stiff to find themselves in a battle with BA/IAG after what happened with openskies. It suits them to maintain the current status quo, and just watch our terms and conditions dwindle whilst keeping us under control for the company. That way they get a nice revenue stream with not too much hassle or risk. Our current union needs to be replaced with one that actually has a backbone.

wiggy

8th Dec 2018, 15:47

The problem is, that would bring us closer to strike action, and BALPA are scared stiff to find themselves in a battle with BA/IAG after what happened with openskies

Yep...........

Mr Angry from Purley

9th Dec 2018, 14:26

All of the above sounds horribly fatigue inducing.. How seriously is this taken at BA? Until a raft of fatigue reports come in, with crew stuck down route then nothing will change will it.
As someone above alluded to also there is a fantastic non punitive fatigue reporting system at current outfit, by sounds of it may well need it at BA too.

The problem is if the Company has to look at their FRMS processes / trip builds etc then it's only fair that they look at crew members responsibilities also so as wiggy mentioned the C word comes into it (and that's not Christmas). So crew X on a crappy LAX 24hr layover don't operate as their too tired. So will BA look at the layover or what the crew got up to pre-flight - did they comply with crew members responsibilities before the outbound flight and downroute- with this in mind will crews report or keep quiet I wonder...
Yes there are some airlines out there with FRMS systems which are now mature and have been around for some time. Up until recently there was a well known quote "there is no fatigue at BA" - might have to get through the "yee who has the last laugh" before things move in the right direction for both BA and its crews.

Emma Royds

9th Dec 2018, 19:51

I suspect if you asked a senior long haul FO what they had in common with a new FO at LGW, I suspect it might be easier for the list of differences to be highlighted rather than what they have in common within the context of their job. One doesn't need to look too far to see how there are numerous aspects of flying for BA that can create differences between colleagues. LHR vs LGW, Shorthaul vs Longhaul, Carmen vs Bidline (in a historical context of course) and BARP vs NAPS and that is coming from someone who doesn't work for the company, so I suspect more could be added to the list!! The more differences amongst colleagues, then the more challenging it has to be to create any solidarity in the workplace.

Reading some of the previous posts reminds me of an ex BA skipper who stepped into a Flight Ops management position at my last company after he retired. It was rather irksome to see how reluctant he was to engage with management and to address any issues that were passed up the food chain. After a few beverages down route one night, one of the cabin crew actually took him to task over his reluctance to communicate and help create change where it was needed. He admitted he had no desire to 'rock the boat' unless he himself was going to benefit as well. A carry-over from his BA days perhaps?

As I said earlier, I am not at BA but I do have a few friends still there, so I do read this thread from time to time out of interest. I left the UK to become an ex-pat aviator before EASA FTLs were brought in, so my knowledge of them is rather scant, to say the least. Regardless of that, any manager worth their salt will use their FTL framework as a guideline for enhancing crew productivity and I have seen this where I am now. It seems that no airline in IAG appears to be immune from this nowadays either. If 24 hours down route in the US west coast is legal, then it's a case of when rather than if it ever happens before your management consider tweaking with your rosters. Having crews away from home base longer than needed, seems to be a bête noire for management in any airline and it is a very easy way for them to reduce operating costs.

Some of you seem to have suggested that change will be forthcoming for trips that are changed to include shorter layovers, once a paper trail has started involving safety and fatigue reporting. I can assure you from first-hand experience that it is nothing short of a gargantuan task to revert roster practices, back to a level that reduces crew productivity. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.

From reading this thread it would seem that some BA aviators here, seem to have lost hope in your CC as well but this has to be your last line of defence against unfavourable change. If enough of you are disillusioned about your CC as some of the posters on this thread appear to be, then what would the outcome of a petition of 'No Confidence' in your CC be?

Good Luck and I shall be watching from the sidelines!

4468

9th Dec 2018, 23:31

A VNC in the BACC?

How many friends did you say you have in BA?

wiggy

10th Dec 2018, 06:43

A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established.

There’s no uncertainty about that, it is already a “given”. A manager at BA stated in print a few weeks back that in the event of a fatigue report/ASR being filed travel arrangements would be examined (and anecdotally it seems it is not just air travel that gets looked at, apparently even a < 90minute drive to/from home between short haul days has already raised comment).

2 Whites 2 Reds

10th Dec 2018, 08:03

There’s no uncertainty about that, it is already a “given”. A manager at BA stated in print a few weeks back that in the event of a fatigue report/ASR being filed travel arrangements would be examined (and anecdotally it seems it is not just air travel that gets looked at, apparently even a < 90minute drive to/from home between short haul days has already raised comment).

I can vouch for that. I filed a Fatigue ASR not so long ago and was asked to detail (by email ie in writing) how I usually manage my commute which is just under 90 mins by car. I was doing short haul at the time.

Was subsequently followed up with a phone call from the DFCM to go through it. I felt very much that the wrong answer would lead to another less pleasant phone call.

Wireless

10th Dec 2018, 13:09

. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.!

This paragraph. What you say re caution, I know is well meant. Id be very surprised if anyone at BA is unaware of their commuting being looked at before filing such reports. The surveillance of commuting on personal time is very well known and a hot potato. Incidentally I’ll add the current monitoring is not solely triggered by a fatigue report. It’s a wide spread audit that’s seemingly increasing in resources.

Re EASA FTL. There was an important re emphasis from the previous essence of state regulations when EASA FTL was constructed re fatigue reporting.

I appreciate you may not be too aware of EASA FTL not flying under them. But the FRMS system was a hand in glove condition to fly to EASA FTL rules. EASA FTLs were constructed only such that airlines MUST have an active FRMS. A legal roster or more correctly a roster constructed to FTL limits, does not infer fatigue free under EASA rules, hence the FMRS.

That’s the very essence of the system. It is not a singular side addition as previous state FTLs. As such airlines and the regulator have to respect fatigue reporting. I do agree changing a fatiguing section of work will take somewhat of a trend in reality to stop outliers causing constant disruption to scheduling, but equally they cannot sit on reports in ignorance waiting for an artificial high amount.

That is precisely the system and a culture of treading lightly and discouragement of fatigue reporting goes against EASA FTL. Some U.K. airlines adopt their FRMS responsibility that allows them to fly under EASA FTLS quite well. I gather EasyJet for example have an active, open and well used FRMS. That is exactly the way flying under EASA was meant to be treated. It was acknowledged during construction the rules can not possibly catch all fatigueing combinations. They have great limitations.

“You can fly to these limits, but only, and only if you have an FRMS to catch fatigue”. A feedback loop system. It’s not meant to be a section of railway track that disappears into the buffers with fatigue reports being filed away ne’er to be seen again. Hence fatigue reporting goes to MOR (although when filed through airlines at least BA seem to override the MOR status sometimes)

I have filed a fatigue report with BA and disappointingly did not meet the same positive response as others. I was told “BA fatigue reporting culture is still new and we’re learning”

A somewhat concerning statement of juvenile innocence given fatigue has existed for years, and holding an AOC requires a mature compliance and understanding of state procedures. I hope the comment was just that manager’s attitude and not indicative of a wider culture.

You are right. If someone is abusing their commute they would be wise to visit their lifestyle before blaming a line. However, reporting fatigue is not only a legal requirement it’s meant to be open and encouraged. After all no airline wants knackered crews either.

MikeAlpha320

10th Dec 2018, 14:35

Some of you seem to have suggested that change will be forthcoming for trips that are changed to include shorter layovers, once a paper trail has started involving safety and fatigue reporting. I can assure you from first-hand experience that it is nothing short of a gargantuan task to revert roster practices, back to a level that reduces crew productivity. If a trip is deemed to be legal and if you raise your head above the parapet and shout fatigued and not fit to operate, then I would suggest that caution may be prudent, since BA may find it convenient to view the reporter as the problem rather than the timings of the trip itself. A number of you commute and some involve air travel in this process. The company could take delight in wading through staff travel records and probing into your travel and rest arrangements prior to your trips, so that a cause for your fatigue can conveniently (for the company!) be established. With the company seeming to wish to take a greater interest in how you all travel to work, then I suspect what may seem to be a rather invasive action, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Such actions could also act as a deterrent to those thinking of whistleblowing as well. If a trip is deemed to be legal in the eyes of the regulator, then it takes a lot of people to create a case for it to be deemed to be not fit for purpose.

Much like post above I really think you need to be careful before posting things like this (especially In bold). We are LEGALLY required to report if we are are fatigued or likely to become so during our duty- such that safety becomes compromised. We are professionals and I'm sure the vast majority observe EASA rules regarding commuting and rest before work. Please do not try to scaremonger people into not reporting fatigue. It is the only way some of these dangerous rostering practices will be changed.

Whether a trip is legal or not is irrelevant. Fatigue is personal! Some people find things more/less fatiguing than others. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise. I don't know where you work but BA claims to have an open and just culture- we should be reporting fatigue. We should not be punished for it and Im 100% sure the regulator would not take well to punitive fatigue management.

Baring in mind you're not at BA and obviously don't work in an airline with a decent FRMS I'm not sure how relevant your post is to current/prospective BA pilots so please think about what you post and its effects on readers.

bex88

10th Dec 2018, 20:01

I spoke positively about fatigue reporting.

I was wrong I received a unpleasant phone call recently with a view to discredit my report.

MikeAlpha320

10th Dec 2018, 22:32

Did you CC Balpa in on it Bex? What did they try to discredit your report with?

Buter

11th Dec 2018, 00:25

I spoke positively about fatigue reporting.

I was wrong I received a unpleasant phone call recently with a view to discredit my report.

Please call me tomorrow.

Email if the phone thing scares you.

B

Emma Royds

11th Dec 2018, 00:40

It seems as if my post has ruffled a feather or two, which was not the intention, but the personal accounts of 2 Whites 2 Reds and bex88 have to some degree, illustrated the point I was trying to make. There is a fine line between collating data following fatigue reporting and being unnecessarily invasive and/or unpleasant in how this is achieved. There has been an FRMS at my outfit for around a decade (maybe longer) and I have personally seen the excellent side of fatigue reporting but I have also heard of some rather unfavourable accounts from colleagues. Given that FRMS seems to be in its early days at BA based on what others have posted, I simply wished to highlight a side to FRMS reporting, that 2 Whites 2 Reds and bex88 have highlighted to some extent.

Wireless (https://www.pprune.org/members/43467-wireless)

“You can fly to these limits, but only, and only if you have an FRMS to catch fatigue”. A feedback loop system. It’s not meant to be a section of railway track that disappears into the buffers with fatigue reports being filed away ne’er to be seen again. Hence fatigue reporting goes to MOR (although when filed through airlines at least BA seem to override the MOR status sometimes)

You raise the interesting point about how the regulator is part of the reporting loop for fatigue reporting and this raises an interesting predicament, since an operator is obliged to preach that they wholeheartedly support an open a fair fatigue reporting system, yet any operator will wish to keep the number of fatigue reports to as few as possible, so that it does not warrant extra attention from the regulator.

MikeAlpha320 (https://www.pprune.org/members/458916-mikealpha320)

Whether a trip is legal or not is irrelevant. Fatigue is personal! Some people find things more/less fatiguing than others.

That is what makes this process one that can be unfairly biased in favour of the operator and not the reporter. It is far more convenient for the operator to try pin the cause of the fatigue on the individual and not on the operator's processes. There is no intent to scaremonger on my part and no one should be scared to report fatigued in any company. I myself will report fatigued, as I have done so in the past but I have seen some colleagues who would rather just call sick rather than call sick due to fatigue and subsequently document their fatigue, as it will remove any potential spotlight being shone on their life outside of the flight deck. The post-fatigue reporting follow up process by the operator, must be relevant but it is imperative that the reporter stands up, should they feel what they are being asked to account for is not relevant. Your colleague has mentioned how their commute of just under 90 minutes had to be accounted for in detail but is all this detail actually relevant given that the long-standing 90 minute time recommendation for traveling to home base, was complied with? I have seen a few colleagues with a higher than average number of sick days being referred for medical tests so that their reported fatigue can be 'investigated' and it is easy for any operator to defend such a practice as not being punitive, as it can be linked to due diligence being performed within the context of their FRMS. On the other hand, one could argue that such an approach is perhaps excessive and could act as a deterrent to others but it's highly subjective depending on if you view this from the perspective of the reporter or the operator. None of us would like our sleeping, eating, exercise and travel history probed into and especially so when one will probably be unsure what will constitute an answer that will draw extra unwanted attention towards our personal life.

4468 (https://www.pprune.org/members/97639-4468)

A VNC in the BACC?

How many friends did you say you have in BA?

Funnily enough, none of them seem to have expressed their concern about any of the issues that have been discussed here recently. Either it's another case of 'I'm alright Jack' as has been alluded to here or perhaps they are just apathetic.

2 Whites 2 Reds

11th Dec 2018, 07:41

I spoke positively about fatigue reporting.

I was wrong I received a unpleasant phone call recently with a view to discredit my report.

I had a sort of similar experience Bex, and I’d strongly advise you check to audit trail of comments between people in eBasis when you’re next in.

clvf88

11th Dec 2018, 11:03

Does anyone know what the procedure is should you be unsuccessful this time round? I have heard a rumour (so this would be the perfect place to discuss...!) that whatever stage you were unsuccessful at, you can reapply in six months and recommence the process from there...eg unsuccessful at stage 3, wait six months, back for another sim ride.

I'm not in a position to confirm, and it may have changed, but in my experience it was + 1 year, and restart the process from the beginning. I had heard rumours of people who failed the sim being called back to redo, but I've got colleagues I know first hand who had to go back to stage 1 from the sim.

2 Whites 2 Reds

11th Dec 2018, 11:41

It used to be 6 months if you were unsuccessful at the application stage and 12 months if you were unsuccessful at any of the assessment stages.

I know people have been called back sooner in recent times but can't confirm what the official policy is these days. I think it stated it on the assessment invitation email when I went through but that was 4 years ago and there's been a changing of the guard since then.

Best of luck with it.

bex88

11th Dec 2018, 11:49

MikeAlpha320. Not in BALPA (rightly or wrongly) so no BALPA not copied

Buter. As above. Honestly I don’t have the confidence to speak openly in fear of reprisals.

hoody_mcboob

11th Dec 2018, 15:27

MikeAlpha320. Not in BALPA (rightly or wrongly) so no BALPA not copied

Buter. As above. Honestly I don’t have the confidence to speak openly in fear of reprisals.

Then you might as well just go back to pissing into the wind...

MikeAlpha320

11th Dec 2018, 19:23

Then you might as well just go back to pissing into the wind...

Brings up an interesting point about fatigue for me. I'm not sure if you're suggesting not being part of BALPA means 'you're pissing into the wind' but how I've read It (perhaps wrongly- sorry!). Fatigue isn't industrial. It shouldn't need BALPA if the company were fulfilling their part of the EASA regs- as posted above. Like I said above it shouldn't be punitive and should allow for open and honest reporting- without fear of consequential action. I don't like the way reports are handled at BA and have forwarded several to BALPA to look at. Maybe condescending and unprofessional responses from flight crew managers are normal in regard to fatigue at BA- but thats not something I am personally willing to put up with. The company expect us to be professionals out on the line, give us the same courtesy of professionalism when we report something we are legally required to do.

I do really hope it gets improved upon. We need a proper system in place. One that is not subject to certain managers (flying one trip a month) and their subjective opinions. Collect data. Use it to identify fatiguing patterns. I don't need a response suggesting that I should be bidding for more days off- If I could get more days off I would certainly already be doing it.

Lets see what next year and JSS rosters at LHR- lots of DEPs (ezy with FRMS experience) and what seems to be a more defiant CC will bring.

rod_1986

11th Dec 2018, 20:36

Fatigue shouldn't be industrial, but the EZY experience is that in the absence of effective regulation, where the CAA and EASA basically look at one another and shrug and then get on with something else, then the only way to make any progress is to make it industrial.

You have the moral high ground and the safety argument, which is good. However it's a lot harder to conduct a sustained campaign over it - it's not just pushing out a pay offer and letting the pilots say yay or nay. BA is made even more complicated by the SH vs LH and the seniority.

Good luck!

Falling_Penguin

12th Dec 2018, 09:01

The whole thing now sounds really unattractive. Not for the first time I have felt relieved that I didn't pass the selection!

dirk85

12th Dec 2018, 09:04

I was going to say, the t&c already were far from attractive already, but after reading of how fatigue is handled in BA compared to my current employer... well, I see no point in applying at all.

RexBanner

12th Dec 2018, 09:44

cessnapete

12th Dec 2018, 09:52

Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs.

VinRouge

12th Dec 2018, 10:54

Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs.

Any more horror stories from the first JSS run?

Be interested to see whether those on full time contracts are going to get any time at home.

Icanseeclearly

12th Dec 2018, 10:58

Doug E Style

12th Dec 2018, 11:04

Jan JSS seems to be run by EK rostering staff! Junior A380 pilots assigned for example 90 and 98 hrs.

I don’t know much about 380 ops so can I ask how much of that would be bunk time?

pilotpete123

12th Dec 2018, 11:30

Thank you for everyones continued contribution to this thread. Its proving invaluable to those of us either thinking of applying or who are in the recruitment process.

Would people now consider commuting from a BA served regional UK city as a junior LH pilot as pretty much impossible now with the apparent crack down on travel before duty and the recent roster system changes?

Wireless

12th Dec 2018, 11:44

I was going to say, the t&c already were far from attractive already, but after reading of how fatigue is handled in BA compared to my current employer... well, I see no point in applying at all.

Hi Dirk.

Just for me to be balanced. I didn’t personally have a very positive experience with the “F” word. But as I mentioned that really could be just my experience with the person I spoke to. People being people and all. As I mentioned there’s some folk on here who’ve equally had good experiences with it. I don’t think anyone is making the leap to say the system is definitely handled “badly”. That would be a bit of a sweeping statement and very hard to say unless Balpa took a straw poll. They probably have an opinion as they take an interest in that sort of thing.

I have to be adult about it - I mentioned Easyjet. I bet there’s the odd person at Ej who didn’t have a good experience too.

As I mentioned there’s many very good sides to BA. It still can be a fasntastic place to work. Like anything that’s in flux the negatives can get a bit “polarising”. I do have to remind myself to keep perspective. A post above raised a good point about that.

its natural as it stems from frustration that a good thing is being eroded. Does it happen elsewhere? Yep. But doesn’t mean naturally we should watch it sail by. But equally, keep perspective about applying. It’s far from a sweatshop and still a fasnastic employer. Just things are a changing. Up to you naturally to judge it you want to risk the change and how that fits with your circumstances or wishlist.

Wireless

12th Dec 2018, 11:56

Aiminghigh,

you will never know unless you join.

I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things, does BA have issues, yes of course it does, but do I recognise the company that portrayed on here, no. nowhere is perfect (even Virgin guys and girls are talking strike action). What percentage of BA pilots leave for pastures new, probably more than a few years back but is that as much a sign of the way society is rather than the way the company is going?

There are 4300 pilots at BA only a dozen or so post on here complaining, that’s not saying the issues they are raising aren’t real and aren’t a concern but possibly they are being overly pessimistic. I truly believe that you could give pilots a new car to drive to a lap dancing bar for free dances and free beer and we would moan and want a BMW not a merc, lager not bitter and a blonde not a brunette.

Try and get a balanced view of the company rather than believe everything you read on here.

Before the usual suspects have a pop, I acknowledge the issues you raise and acknowledge the plethora of problems at BA it is far far from perfect but then is anywhere, a little positivity goes a long way in relieving stress.

VinRouge. With regards JSS I got my bid group 1, 15 days at work, 16 off with the trips I wanted (320). Don’t know if I’m lucky or not but happy with Jan, we will see what the rest of the year brings.....

Some good points raised there. And your post gave me something to think on.

You’re right it’s easy to go down the rabbit hole. I try and sit in the middle, but guilty of failing. I do try to keep balanced. It’s a yoyo as we all have limits.

I do think sitting back in acceptance isn’t the way (not for one minute inferring you yourself were saying that), and am very interested in what the union are doing. But that’s because I witnessed a more further down the line version of what’s happening here at a previous and know it can bite in the bum if you sleepwalk into it. So I suppose that can make one a little more jumpy than perhaps one needs be. Who knows.

At work I’m very positive myself. I think a lot of folk are. So it’s hard to gauge what folk really ruminate on about their working life in their personal time or what they really think.

So you’re right. It’s important to keep perspective. Yes things need to be done. But it’s far from a bad choice to work at. It’s more spotting the trend to stop it becoming a bad place.

If something was really bad and behind help (like a personal relationship to strike an analogy) then perhaps there’d be disinterest. It’s actually a good thing that people do care and are slightly animated. It points to that the place is actually, or was very good and they don’t want to see it go downhill I suppose. One way of looking at it I guess.

bex88

12th Dec 2018, 12:15

Icanseeclearly: is that full time or 75%? I would assume you have some bank and seniority which helps. The reality is it was always harder at the bottom but it seems to be getting worse.

I went all the way into the last stage of fall back and have nearly as much work with leave. At the bottom it is still blind lines but now loaded up

Icanseeclearly

12th Dec 2018, 12:51

Bex,

Thats full time, a bit of seniority but by no means senior. Out of interest I compared the Jan rosters under JSS with the Jan rosters from this year, both are busy but I didn’t see a big difference, of course the folk may not have got their bid group 1 and would have been on blind lines in Jan so it’s hard to say how happy they are.

i have acknowledged that BA has its issues and I most definitely have some problems with the way it is going and have some “red lines” that I am unwilling to accept but I am not going to allow it to dictate my outlook on life.

in the military when we deployed we had 3 types of people:

those who were very happy to be where they are and doing what they were doing (a small minority)
those who accepted the situation. Did their best and tried to have a positive outlook on life but were willing to speak up when things were a little awry.
And those who did nothing but moan (despite being volunteers) they made themselves miserable, made those around them miserable and had a difficult time of it.

life is too short to allow BA to grind me down, I don’t take it home and think a little positivity in life goes a long way.

bex88

12th Dec 2018, 13:00

Icanseeclearly. You talk a lot of sense. When in a rut it’s hard to get out of it without a real effort to focus on the positives rather than the details.

Part of the shock is because blindliness had TASS so it seem worse than it is at initial roster publication. I have to admit everyone has more say in what they want to do. Maybe not control of when but certainly more than a blind line. I thought JSS was going to be terrible but perhaps not. The work is just spread evenly and I can’t argue that it is more fair this way, even if I will work more.

Golden days are a real positive too.

Anyway far too much positivity from me 👍

speed freek

12th Dec 2018, 13:02

I read this thread every now and again and notice the same old names complaining about the same old things

Never was a truer word said. Just like everyone on this thread is looking for a fresh start, why don't those same names look elsewhere? Plenty of airlines and plenty of opportunities.

I'm 3 years in on one of the longhaul fleets, so out of the honeymoon period and still very happy with my decision to come across. I was never going to get the lifestyle I currently enjoy, even going part time with my previous LCC employer.

I have reported fatigue, it was a tough month with high cap and roster assign. Now to look at it objectively, it was the middle of summer when every airline works you hard, roster assign is now a thing of the past and my personal experience was a good one. No one argued with my report and nor should they. There were many reasons why the CAPs were high, but there has also been and continues to be a lot of recruitment which will help deliver the lower CAPs promised in the move to JSS. Yes I still believe that will happen :}

Speaking of which, I'm just out of the bottom 10% on both the Master Seniority list and my Fleet's senioriy list. I got work in the days I asked for (due child care) and two west coast trips I would never have got under Bidline due my lack of seniority. Friends and colleagues within 500 places above and below me on several fleets all report similar levels of roster satisfaction.

The senior guys grumble about the pension. Personally it's not too different from any of my previous employers but the company contributions and Death in Service benefits are substantially better. PP34 is what it is. If you want money don't come here (frankly you're in the wrong industry) but the BALPA Pay claim is a good one, having actually spoken to the one of the new reps and hearing the CC's position.

The senior guys grumble about staff travel. I took my family to New York in Club for under £500.

The senior guys grumble about the company recruiting cruise pilots onto the 747 and making it harder to get the 3 man trips. The same guys grumble about how hard they're working. The Training Department is at capacity and this is seen as a way to bring relief onto the line quickly, with the rest of the training completed when there is slack in the system. What would you rather? Personally for me it's lower CAPs and maintaining the lifestyle balance.

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues. The latest missive saying you should be in the UK the day before departure to be properly rested is no different to my previous employer saying they want you back in base the day before a block of lates.

The senior guys grumble that only the managers at BA want to run the operation into the ground with cost cutting. eg. A manager's latest interview saying he would like to reduce time off downroute. Shock horror! A manager wants to make the staff work harder for the same pay. "Good grief, how terrible. This would never happen anywhere else" :ugh:

A lot of grumbles from senior guys are from people who have been here a long time and haven't realised that what they're grumbling about isn't unique to BA. Take it all with a pinch of salt, it's PPruNe for Heaven's sake.

Feel free to PM me but if you want long haul, it's a good company and it's worth doing BA short haul as the ends justify the means. If you have a Command in a regional base and have no intention of wanting to fly long haul stay where you are. It's pretty simple really.

BizJetJockey

12th Dec 2018, 13:12

To change the drift of this current thread...is there anybody with a sim assessment in the near future who may be interested in pairing up to do some sim prep somewhere before the actual assessment?

RexBanner

12th Dec 2018, 14:30

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues.

I’m sorry but that does not justify the company wading in and snooping on the private travel affairs of everybody. And it’s not just those taking the piss, it’s people making perfectly reasonable travel arrangements (in my opinion) who have received phone calls because they have fallen foul of some arbitrary rule for being in base a certain amount of time before a duty when all they have done is taken a 45 minute flight to Heathrow. A less fatiguing commute you could not find. I hasten to add this is not my experience but I’m generally in the same boat as the example in question and the only reason I have not had one of these phone calls is because I generally commute on another airline so am off their radar so to speak. I take exception to the overbearing and invasive handling of this issue and I make no apology for that.

I agree though that it’s a state of mind but the one big thing you could say for BA in the past was that if you kept your head down you’d be left alone, well the above shows that’s not so true anymore.

Mr Angry from Purley

12th Dec 2018, 15:03

Not only do you have the alleged intimidation of people filing fatigue reports you have the Kafka-esque invasion of privacy and spying on employees making their way to work in their own free time. Ask yourself carefully, is this the kind of employer I want?
Rex - unfortunately the regulation requires you to manage your commute and the AOC has a right to know. It can't be coincidence that the two UK Airlines who have had CAA approved FRMS for many years both have crew members commuting protocols. Its not just about crewmembers the AOC has a right to protect the brand. As always the AOC has to make "rules" to manage the 5% (much less at BA). Don't forget the biggest risk to Aircrew isn't on the aircraft unfortunately it's the drive home.

RexBanner

12th Dec 2018, 15:15

Rex - unfortunately the regulation requires you to manage your commute and the AOC has a right to know. It can't be coincidence that the two UK Airlines who have had CAA approved FRMS for many years both have crew members commuting protocols. Its not just about crewmembers the AOC has a right to protect the brand. As always the AOC has to make "rules" to manage the 5% (much less at BA). Don't forget the biggest risk to Aircrew isn't on the aircraft unfortunately it's the drive home.

The regulations talk about people whose journey to work usually exceeds 90 minutes. BA have targeted people whose journey takes less than this, I know that for a fact. A few Amsterdam commuters have received phone calls for instance. easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not so let’s not pretend that this is mandated by the regulator.

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

I’ve flown with a captain who drove down same morning from Manchester for an early LHR report. Yet the commuter who spends 8h 52m in base overnight having flown in that evening from Amsterdam gets the sh*tty phone call whilst he walks around with impunity. There is nothing right about that scenario and yet it is going on all the time.

speed freek

12th Dec 2018, 16:55

easyJet did not audit staff travel to see when people were arriving in their bases and, to the best of my knowledge, still do not
They have and they do. Ask me how I know. Like yourself many staff there commute on other airlines to stay out of the spotlight.

Tay Cough

12th Dec 2018, 18:51

Any more horror stories from the first JSS run?

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

groundbum

12th Dec 2018, 19:48

It’s discriminatory towards a single segment of the workforce (ie the commuter who travels by air) because, short of hiring private investigators, BA are not going to be monitoring people who drive to work.

It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G

RexBanner

12th Dec 2018, 19:52

It would take a competent IT analyst 10 minutes or less to pull out the home addresses/payroll details/beneficiary address (likely spouse) of every BA pilot with a UK address and plot the crow flies distance from LHR/LGW to their home postcode. Add another few hours to feed the postcode into something that would estimate driving distance and time for a, say, 6am report from home postcode. BAs cargo division probably have some code that derives driving time/distance from base to any European address.

G
One simple issue with that, just because that’s where their registered address is, doesn’t mean that that’s where they’ve come from that morning/day. People can and do book hotels within spitting distance of T5 (information unavailable to BA due to all sorts of data protection laws). Short of fitting a GPS tracker to everyone’s car and monitoring that car in and out of the car park, it is impossible to know how anyone has made it into work that day unless they’ve travelled with British Airways on a flight.

Stocious

12th Dec 2018, 21:49

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

There are quite a few enviable rosters at the bottom of the list too. I'm going to go with the the learning curve of a new system throwing up shockers everywhere, give it a few months to bed in and for people to learn how to bid properly then see what happens.

cessnapete

13th Dec 2018, 00:08

I don’t know much about 380 ops so can I ask how much of that would be bunk time?

I’m only familiar with LR ops on B744.
A380 777 787 etc. just as fatiguing at 90/100 hrs a month whatever the type, and ops, ie SH out of Lhr.
Not sustainable on a continuous basis, and soon be reduced to regulating your fatigue by sickness etc.

Jumbo2

13th Dec 2018, 06:33

Unless you’re in the top third of your status, plenty.

Not to sure about that statement. Of the people who contacted BALPA only approximately 1 out of 10 wasn't happy with the outcome of their JSS bidding. Quiet often because of a bidding mistake or misunderstanding because they simple didn't put in the work to learn and understand the new system even though plenty of opportunity was given to do so.

wiggy

13th Dec 2018, 07:05

The senior guys grumble about...

The senior guys grumble...

The senior guys grumble about the invasion of privacy regarding commuting. The fact is some people were taking the proverbial, the company realised they could be held accountable and have issued guidance. Many people commute from around the UK, Ireland, France, Netherlands, Spain, many people have no issues. The latest missive saying you should be in the UK the day before departure to be properly rested is no different to my previous employer saying they want you back in base the day before a block of lates.

BA is an “equal opportunity to grumble” company. I’m pretty senior, I have have heard a lots of “junior guys” grumbling, you OTOH say you are fairly junior ....funnily enough you have heard lots “senior guys” grumbling - I rest my case (and my aching back)....

On the specific issue of “commuting”: I gather the ability to commute from overseas was part of the recruiting team’s sales pitch when they put on their road shows in the not too distant past...(oh yes and apparently they also mentioned a “world leading rostering system”)...Guess What - I heard a grumble from a “junior guy” about that recently.

BTW I’m struggling to find any missive from BA saying you should be back in the U.K. the day before departure.

Overall though you are right, there is still good stuff in BA, but people do need to be aware of what they are letting themselves and possibly their family in for.