BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[EllanVannin]

Buter - No, I’ve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so I’ve done the rounds.

Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.

[Boeing 7E7]

Buter

Why don’t just grow a pair and stand up for yourselves. BAs T&Cs will continue to fall downwards unless and until you threaten and actually do strike, to stop it. You are a bunch of whinging weaklings. There, I said it.

[Snapper5]

Makes for good reading

[JOSHUA]

Buter - No, I’ve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so I’ve done the rounds.

Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.

Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that it’s some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ‘I’ve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etc’.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldn’t be entitled to protect some of our T&C’s? Perhaps you’ll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?

[Enzo999]

Buter

All done and voted for by BA pilots! If loosing bidline was so bad then the union should never have recommended it and the pilots should not have voted yes. BA have taken advantage of a corrupt and week union and they have not implemented anything that has not been arrgeed by BALPA and the work force. And now they have a nicely divided work force I am sure the attacks won’t stop anytime soon, let’s see if BALPA can grow a pair and stop looking after themselves.

[cessnapete]

Some very negative BA comments here!
Depends what lifestyle you want and perhaps your previous Employer. Friend of mine lifestyle immensely improved. From Ex Military, poor pay, Hotac that would not be acceptable in airline life. Completely random unstable rostering etc.etc.
A couple of years in now after direct into BA LH. £70k ish, mainly 5 day trips with couple of days free down route (plenty of golf if that’s your bag) Mainly high quality hotels in the city.
Small fleet very social, no rubbish destinations. Although junior, complete roster stability after publication, and very easy trip swapping helps family arranging on days off at home.
Obviously plenty of night flying, but helped by one of the best flightdeck environment and crew rest facility in the business.
Some may prefer EZY and Ryan but “horses for courses”

[EllanVannin]

Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that it’s some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ‘I’ve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etc’.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldn’t be entitled to protect some of our T&C’s? Perhaps you’ll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?

I don’t disagree. You’re setting up a straw man argument.

I’m as pee’d off as the next guy with the company and am more than happy to strike to protect our Ts and Cs. That’s not what the argument is here. The point we are trying to make is that life isn’t as bad as a lot of the posts on this forum make it sound. Far from it.

[wiggy]

I sense there’s a bit of “ well if you had ever worked anywhere else you wouldn’t think like that” creeping in, so just to put the record straight many of those perhaps expressing less than glowing views of BA did indeed have a life before BA...even many those regarded as institutionalised who joined 30 years back have in fact been either in the mil and/or with another airline and are very well aware of things like roster instability, poor accommodation .. and phone calls at 3 in the AM....so yes, we’ve all know “the four Yorkshiremen ;)

BA used to be the top U.K. gig by a country mile...yes, .it is an eye opener when you join and some of the “perks” can make your eyes water if you previously done things like spending time off downroute living on a car ferry...

I think Long Haul is probably still a pretty top job, short haul...I don’t know but I know those who do....but I do know the slide in T&Cs has been enormous over the last few years as the operation is steered from Madrid and I suspect that slide will continue, so those thinking in indulging need to indulge in a lot of thinking ahead.

Certainly those now looking at BA need to perform due diligence like never before ..and yes, it is indeed horses for courses...long haul DEP offered...grab it...if the offer is Shorthaul DEP and you are already well established at your current outfit...that’s a tough one...not sure I’d jump without a lot of research.

Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported “benefits” website....;)

[Basil]

I am just totally fascinated by the fact that some BA pilots fly "for the prestige".

What "prestige"?

Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.

He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".
Shocking!
For me, like applying to the RAF, joining BA was a serendipitous accident; I could have been a turbine driver in a power station y'know

The performance (:rolleyes:) of the Gentlemen's International Transport has been mentioned and, if you recollect the approx 'benefit' of Mil Ops, a comment may be appropriate at:
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/605780-perf-group-history.html#post10063533

[BASHLH]

Reading People are leaving can only be a good thing for those of us here to stay. BA is my 3rd airline having done charter & ME before, there are many things BA get wrong but also many positives too. BA certainly isn’t the ‘be all & end all’ but it works for me. We are an easy target for the haters.... it is what it is. I certainly don’t go for prestige.... rather the job security & 100k gross for doing 3-4 trips a month with min hassle. Those who search my prev post will see I turned down a SH command 3 years ago when we had the one opportunity to do so, that was after 6 years in the company.... I believe in 2016 if you had the hours you could of had a LHR or LGW 320 command regardless of time in the company... now we’re short AGAIN... I can see SH commands crashing down again by the end of the year. If anyone in or out of BA says it X or Y to commands etc they’re lying as who knows? It changes daily & even BA don’t know... just got to bid for what you want!

If it works for you it’s a great place to be... but it’s an airline & like my 2 previous it’s not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...

People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then we’d be in a far stronger position!

[GS-Alpha]

I’ve spent some time thinking about why we have had such a massive slide in BA over the past few years. BA will obviously take what they can when they can - they want to be as competitive as possible, so who can blame them? This has always been the case though, so the answer must come down to why can they take so much now?

What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?

What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!

Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?

Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?

The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.

I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!

So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.

[Snapper5]

GS ALPHA probably one of the best posts I have ever read on PPrune !
It’s sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say it’s getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell

[Pilot2/b]

I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, I’d jump at the chance. Yes it’s not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.

[BAP]

BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.

T&C’s are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.

The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand :)
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.

The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they won’t :-/

Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...

HOWEVER..

The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.

London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.

BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.

I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. it’s hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.

I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if let’s say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted. ;)

But overall it’s not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!

Good luck to you all.

[RexBanner]

There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better.

Whilst I agree with the general tone of your comments the fact remains that easyJet pilots are still being rostered to CAP371 thanks to the strength of their union. Yes on the day given disruption EASA limits apply but the rostering is still all done as it was prior EASA. How the BA CC let that one slide whilst even our pilot colleagues in easyJet put their foot down on it I don’t know. So to say that the grass is greener at BA coming from a loco is untrue anyway. Fatigue reporting far easier than in BA too, we don’t even have a proper system in place which is absolutely shocking.

[GS-Alpha]

Not only did they let it slide Rex, they brought in the incredibly dumb alleviation that is Final Assign to replace Forced Draft. Everyone thinks it is great that Forced Draft is gone because BALPA have fed them their spin, but EASA was already going to do away with Forced Draft. You could only be met off an aircraft for a duty the following day. Most long haul duties do not allow you to work the next day under EASA, so that practice would have disappeared overnight all by itself. It would still have been possible to an extent on short haul, but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all. Instead, we just had the alleviations agreed between BALPA and BA, using a system that the Chairman had put to the pilots several times and on every occasion, was told not to even consider it. Final Assign was the foot in the door to bring in JSS.

[WhatTheDeuce]

Don’t even know where to begin with that post. Clearly no understanding of what Bidline originally was - it was an extraction process with the complicit understanding that pilots would cover the work with draft if necessary.

Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.

So much uninformed rubbish on here.

[wiggy]

So much uninformed rubbish on here.

That's a tad strong..

As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.

Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.

BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?

[TSAT]

To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!

Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.

[TURIN]

Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported “benefits” website....

Don't get me started! I'm surprised that it hasn't been discussed further on here.
1.4% of basic for a profit of £1.77B. Motivated? Not really.
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.

[MrBernoulli]

As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
I don't think it is even that good! :rolleyes:

[GS-Alpha]

Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that.
Yep, hence why I said
but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all.

If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins, you will also know that the intent of forced draft was that it be used infrequently, to cover unforseen circumstances. (As you say, the system would break down without it). However, BA were using it for very predictable uncovered work, and each time an agreement to solve it was reached, BA just reduced pilot numbers still further. Now I agree, something needed to be done, but the solution we have ended up with is a poor effort. Will BA still operate with as few pilots as possible under JSS? Of course they will. I note you have said earlier you are a pp5 Captain. It will be interesting to read how you feel about JSS when you are obtaining one or two choices you wanted during Winter months, but having them all optimised away during the Summer months. I expect it will be better than your previous outfit though, so perhaps you will be happy enough. Bring on the next reduction in T’s and C’s please BA because the majority of your fresh new workforce have come from worse places and are perfectly happy for you to keep on going.

[4468]

Point of Order if I may?

BA wanted rid of Bidline.

BA wanted rid of Bidline because they couldn’t build CAP achieving Blindlines from the rubbish left over, after Tripline holders, (and T0 bidders!) had taken their picks. Inability to work the most junior pilots to CAP, resulted in two problems: Firstly BA had to employ ‘additional’ pilots to support Bidline. Secondly, work was left over (uncovered) after rosters were issued.

Despite the problem being highlighted countless times by BALPA, BA pilots played into BA’s hands by refusing or avoiding draft at the a/c side. Many of us are aware of the ‘extreme lengths’ some colleagues went to, to avoid meeting a manager after landing!

BA have successfully negotiated a solution to the problem of work coverage, by introducing JSS. (A system that will ensure all pilots can work to CAP. Their contractually agreed workload!) BA pilots voted in favour of this solution!

The current system of Final Assign, is merely ‘life support’ to allow Bidline to continue in Intensive Care until it draws it’s last breath. Nobody can now avoid it by claiming too short notice. Nobody can now avoid it by running from managers in terminals wearing fancy dress!

Any company should reasonably expect it’s workforce to be able to ‘produce’ it’s contracted hours. Saying BA employed too few pilots at the time, may well be partly correct. But BA could always demonstrate they had sufficient pilots if the work was distributed evenly amongst them. Individual preferences for some, simply allowed Bidline to prevent that from happening. When BA PILOTS withdrew their support for the system. What were BA supposed to do?

JSS will put total control of roster satisfaction, in the hands of those controlling establishment! BA pilots’ bidding and behaviour demanded that. BA pilots voted for it.

QED

All Devil’s Advocate obviously!

[PorridgeStirrer]

But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.


I believe an other IAG carrier to the west of the UK has a defined benefit scheme where the employee contributes 11% and the company contributes 21%.

[EF1S]

Just for information; I've recently left BA to take a command at Ryanair. Spent several years as a Longhaul DEP but it's going nowhere; BA went from a Legacy carrier to a Longhaul LoCo in the space of several years... And I figured if I'm going to work for a LoCo I might as well work for one that pays more than BA.
It's sad but there you have it.
All of the former reasons for joining are no longer there; bidline, pension, 24 point payscale, early shorthaul command, early retirement and working less than 850hrs per year... And Alex Cruz isn't done yet; not by a long shot. All that's left now is prestige, I tried paying for my groceries the other day with that, but they wouldn't take it.
Obviously make your own decison, but I've made mine; I'm out.

Well you could have had an early short haul command couldn’t you.

[wiggy]

If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins,

:E

FWIW in my "office" I have an unamended paper copy of Bidline rules from 2010.... In the loft somewhere I've actually got my set from around '90 and looking at that really would make eyes water...every time I hear someone say we are still working to Bidline I have to "box the chimp".

[HelloD]

Hey all, anyone know:

If the last round of BA managed path a success? Did BA get what they thought they were getting...?

Are BA planning on running another managed path campaign?

Hope somebody out there is in the know!

[Enzo999]

GS-Alpha

Hang on, it was not the “fresh new” workforce that VOTED to get rid of PP24, Bidline, Fixed pay or NAPS! Stop voting yes to things and maybe the T and Cs will stop reducing!

[GS-Alpha]

100% agree we need to stop voting yes to things. I have only once voted the way BALPA recommended but I am one of the minority.

[blimey]

They could have solved the whole lot by upping the overtime rate.

(for info x1.25).

[followthegreens]

Enzo999 beat me to it. It's monumentally ironic to hear to people complain that DEPs ruined it all by first working for LoCos, then being happy with their lot at BA, when the majority of those people voted for the 34 year Pay Point, BARP, etc

As a matter of fact, the current EZY membership could give the BA membership a few lessons in standing up to the company. The EZY FRMS is rock solid compared to BA's. And the recent agreement to get rid of the infamous Flexicrew contract was a major union achievement. And let's not forget the resolve it must have taken to get union recognition at Ryanair.

[Doppio]

To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.

[HelloD]

Slight redirect,

Does anyone know if BA will ever run another Managed Path recruitment push?

Did the last managed path recruitment program produce the results BA were expecting?

[Club World]

Not even allowed to land the A380 for several months as an FO? Why? What about of you have had previous A380 experience.

[rustynut]

[QUOTE=Doppio;10065671]To clarify some points that were raised;

“ All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.”

I actually agree with that, what’s the point in giving every FO at the likes of Ryanair 3 stripes when they get 1500 hours? Pointless and defeats the object!


“ A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months. “

There was very good reason for this, 12 aircraft, 20DEP’s?! There would have been a lot of people going out of recency if these were all trained at the same time!

“ 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.”

Iv never done more that 4 trips, and when I have iv bid for it to build bank or picked up an overtime trip!

[Job Knockey]

Is there any truth in the rumour that BA are seriously short of pilot numbers?

A rumour puts this in the low to middling hundreds.

That’s quite a gap - if true.

[gnarlberg]

well, just read they want to flood the market with an additional 6,8% seats. So yeah I think every carrier in Europe is struggling getting Pilots. The two big bankruptcys have started the rollercoaster of Pilots. everybody tries to push into that market and we will have a capacity of 120% compared to that one Summer 2017. people sign, do the conversion course, and then leave for the next better option. this year is going to be the hell for HR and recruiting and especially the training departments. having people in the conversion, simulators blocked, and on line training and then left with 2-4 weeks notice period eats up all training capacity.

[wiggy]

Just picking up on this:

All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.

That’s a fair point...the two rings has always led to certain incorrect and sometimes unfortunate assumptions being made by some both in the air and on the ground...I certainly think there is a case to be made for experienced new joiners to have three rings....though you’ll never get the company to agree to pay SFO rate from day one though.


A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.

Um...I’ll admit I haven’t heard that was the case and am a bit suprised...then again that is the fleet that didn’t even trust highly highly experienced Long Haul Boeing pilots to transfer directly to the aircraft for the first year or two...... :oh:

And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I can promise you not all “senior colleagues” buy into the BALPA line...and the demography of the JSS vote would be interesting to see.

[Buter]

There wasn't enough training capacity to run everyone through complete 380 conversions so some were selected to do just enough of the course to fly as cruise pilots. As soon as there was space in the training dept to complete the conversions, it was situation normal.

One of these cruise only pilots was so senior he's now since retired. It was nothing to do with trust.

I'm not defending BA, far from it. There's not a lot I disagree with from Doppio's post.

Yeah, we are a bit special. Not like 'good' special, more like a fleet full of window lickers...

[wiggy]

Ah, thanks.

FWIW BA had two and three ringers flying as temporary cruise pilots, and briefly cruise only lines, on the 744 twenty plus years back so it is not a new thing or necessarily a case of penalising the junior....

[cessnapete]

Wiggy
A380 F/O Landings
A Relative of mine joined a year or so ago as a DEP direct onto the A380. There is no ban on new F/Os landing the aircraft. The problem was the BA lack of Trainers to do the required down route 6 landings.
The large recent LH DEP recruitment simply overpowered the Training section.
So a month or three as a "Cruise only " while you waited in turn.Worked out well in fact, as you ended up having visited most destinations before your training sectors.

Much better than many Asian carriers, for example Qantas, where you can sit for years as an S/O on 747/A380/787 and never land it.

[Jumbo2]

To clarify some points that were raised;

- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.

Please say you forgot to add the wink smiley to this sentence and weren't serious?

If you were serious you might want to give global lifeline a ring for some counseling! :ugh:

[breakdip]

On their website BA states hiring 'Forces pilots'. Does anyone has information on that specific path? Possible openings soon?

[back to Boeing]

I can't believe that people get hung up on stripes.

Surely what's in your bank balance et the end of the month and how you get to spend your life is significantly more important to how many stripes you have?

[wiggy]

I can't believe that people get hung up on stripes.

Spend some time loitering in the right place in CRC wearing civvies and you’ll probably appreciate the problem.....of course any day now management will sort this out.

[JW411]

I quite agree. I never wore three stripes. I went straight from two stripes to four stripes in just over a year on the DC-10 and never wore less than four stripes for the next 30-odd years.

Forget about stripes and concentrate on what goes into your bank.

[banterbus]

Very interested to know more information on the Forces pilot question...

[wiggy]

I’ll leave it with this: I’ve had to sort out a couple of issues out in the last few months where there has been an assumption made by some on board that two rings meant straight out of flying school. The irony of it was in both cases the problem makers themselves had only been in the company 5 minutes.........

[Tricia Takanawa]

I quite like my two stripes. Peoples expectations are automatically lowered, and I usually don't disappoint :E

[Northern Monkey]

To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.

No delicate sensibilities damaged here although some of your points do require challenging with some facts. Where I agree with you I'm not shy about stating it.

1. It's been said in posts above but who on earth cares how many stripes you have. We're all adults here, you would hope, and if someone treats you differently because you have 2 stripes then tell them to poke off! They are clearly idiots. I'm assuming that is your problem, and not the physical absence of a third stripe. For if that is your problem I fear you may be beyond help...

2. Your point about A380 Fo's not being able to land is misleading. It was a training capacity issue, not a trust issue as has already been pointed out.

3. I share your scepticism over JSS but ultimately until it comes in, no one definitively knows what its going to be like. We're all speculating. I do, however, mourn the loss of bidline like many of my colleagues.

4. It's uncommon to do 5 long haul trips a month, certainly on my fleet. It's only happened to me once. Ive never done 6, and I've never done more than 3 on a month when I've had leave. Next month on a blind line with leave I have 2 trips.

5. I agree the 34 point pay scale sucks and it must be one of the main reasons that people think twice before signing on the line.

6. You might do 3 reserve periods a year to begin with. But that won't go on forever. If you are a long haul DEP it will go on longer than short haul, and that is one of the main advantages of taking a short haul DEP job - a more rapidly advancing "on fleet" seniority. The first couple of years aren't great for reserve and you'll probably do it over Christmas at least once. I didn't do a single reserve for my last two years on the airbus. I've done 1 reserve since I went to long haul 18 months ago.

7. The pensions changes are well documented elsewhere, but it's disingenuous to infer, as your post reads to me, that BARP is some recent development. NAPS closed to new joiners a LONG time ago now, much as MANY final salary schemes at other companies did. The new BARP is an improvement on what has been offered for many years now. Quoting annuity rates is a waste of time. You'd have to be nuts to buy an annuity today.

I'm glad you're happy at Ryanair and I do think the decision about whether to leave a loco command to join BA has become much more balanced in recent years. You can't escape the reality though, and please don't gloss over it, that Ryanair is hardly a happy place to work for many of it's "employees" (self employed, contractors, delete as appropriate). Sure, you get paid more as a Ryanair Captain than as a BA DEP. Shock horror. I would question whether Ryanair is a particularly good employer compared to BA when you look beyond the financial side of things. That's borne out by the statistics in terms of the sheer volume of resignations from Ryanair over a typical year versus resignations from BA. I don't need to be BA's biggest cheerleader to point that out either.

Ultimately BA is far from perfect. Financially you will be better off taking a command at RYR or EZY, no contest. If you're reading this and that is what motivates you then forget BA. Lets not pretend though that doing so is without its downsides. It's a lifetime of multiple sector, high intensity short haul flying with all the stresses that come along with that. Working for a company, in Ryanair's case, who don't even try to hide their contempt for the pilot workforce.

I won't apologise for making the case for working for BA. There's plenty wrong with it, but it's still the best flying job I've ever had and when I'm cycling down the beach or sat by the pool with a cold beer my previous loco job seems a MILLION miles away. Oh and by the way, I'll happily join the picket line to protect our terms and conditions, just as soon as we are given the chance.

[rustynut]

Well said NM.

Finally some balanced truth!

[Jumbo2]

Well said Northern Monkey, couldn't agree more with what you wrote. Also I second what you said as a DEP joining Shorthaul, you will climb the fleet seniority ladder much quicker then if you join as a DEP Longhaul (were you could actually go downwards on the fleet seniority ladder if more senior pilots move from SH to LH). Climbing the fleet seniority ladder means an improved lifestyle.

[GS-Alpha]

If I had to guess, I would say Doppio was on the 747 where 5 trips a month is the norm. However, the 787 does indeed look like 4 trips is normal. So balance yes, but both posters speak the truth. I have just compared March rosters.

[Doppio]

I stand corrected on the landing policy for A380 FO's based solely on inexperience.

[fr666]

To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!

Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.

I passed assessment May 2016, NTR, was offered 747 last week. Good luck!

[Wakarider]

Very true Doppio, only did 11 landings in the aircraft last year and 485hrs. A far cry from my previous fleet.

[followthegreens]

DEP onto the 380 from EZY just under two years ago.

Like many posters said, it's not perfect. There is the obvious concern that things will carry on getting worse as Mr Cruz keeps on cutting costs. But I definitely don't regret it.

Bad things:
- poor IT and incredibly confusing internal processes e.g. Where do the bid results get published? In a place called "Forums". Makes sense.
- fairly unharmonious relationship between cabin crew and flight deck (EZY was great for that)
- difficult life planning unless you are senior
- nobody answers their phones. No point leaving messages either. It's chronic. And that's when you have figured out who you are supposed to be calling in the first place.


Good things:
- most skippers seem to recognise I'm an experienced pilot and don't look at me as a "2-striper"
- overall very friendly flight deck (usual small percentage of undesirables)
- decent hotels, mostly in city centers
- easy to swap trips, which makes being junior easier than you'd think
- overall, Ops people who treat you as an adult (one of the worse aspects of EZY). When they answer the phone.
- many opportunities to take part in non-flying projects (flight safety, technical, training, corporate relations, etc)

Would I feel the same on SH? Probably not.

I feel much less tired than at EZY. Yes the night flights are tough, but the cumulative fatigue at EZY was much worse. My wife has noticed a big difference in my mood during days off or holidays. But then I sleep well in the bunk, which some people find nigh impossible.

As a family, we've very much enjoyed going on holiday in Club seats in LA, Cape Town and Miami. Also great fun taking the wife on a trip with me and can't wait for my kid to be old enough to do the same.

The vast majority of FOs I know who switched to BA SH say they would never go back. And I don't believe any of the recent 380 DE FOs are having second thoughts.

I think it's very much become a SH vs LH question. There's not a lot between EZY and BA for SH. Just more money sooner at EZY, but that probably evens out over a career. I don't think it would make sense for an EZY skipper to move to BA if he/she has not intention of going LH. Part-time is the only option after 10+ years of SH at either outfit. It's just too knackering.

My two cents!

[Flyer2007]

I passed assessment May 2016, NTR, was offered 747 last week. Good luck!

Congrats! When you say NTR, were you completely NTR? Or current on another Boeing? Cheers! 😊

[VJW]

Flyer2007 don't you read the emails from BA? I know things change with BA all the time, however 3 weeks ago they said, 'The longhaul offers for the moment are being made to those with a current Boeing rating.

Initial forecasting shows that the majority of offers for 2018 will be to the A320 with the majority being based at LGW. While we have a number of you in the holdpool who have an A320 rating, the numbers that are being predicted mean we will need more ROT A320 Pilots than there are of you in the holdpool so we will shortly be launching a new A320 recruit on type campaign.'

It's pretty obvious. As you are probably DHC8 rated, you need to be at the top of the DEP holdpool to have a chance at getting an A320 offer if you're not rated on it. Saab0409 recently mentioned he got an A320 offer and he wasn't A320 rated, and clearly not Boeing rated otherwise he'd have been offered a LH position.

I'm Boeing rating and passed Sept 2016 and I know loads of other Boeing rated pilots who passed after me. I've not received any calls, so it's safe to assume the LH DEP calls for us Boeing swimmers hasn't got into June 2016 yet (based on fr666 passing in May).

People above have said they have (or know people who have) been offered A320 positions based on already being rated and they passed their selection after me.

My worry for you is this part of their email, 'We have some shorthaul offers for those of you that aren’t rated' has already taken place. I believe they'll be able to get more A320 people in during this current drive before you get to the top of 'this' part of the list. Hope I'm wrong for you, but judging by their emails I wouldn't have much hope.

[efarto]

Flyer2007 don't you read the emails from BA? I know things change with BA all the time, however 3 weeks ago they said, 'The longhaul offers for the moment are being made to those with a current Boeing rating.

Initial forecasting shows that the majority of offers for 2018 will be to the A320 with the majority being based at LGW. While we have a number of you in the holdpool who have an A320 rating, the numbers that are being predicted mean we will need more ROT A320 Pilots than there are of you in the holdpool so we will shortly be launching a new A320 recruit on type campaign.'

It's pretty obvious. As you are probably DHC8 rated, you need to be at the top of the DEP holdpool to have a chance at getting an A320 offer if you're not rated on it. Saab0409 recently mentioned he got an A320 offer and he wasn't A320 rated, and clearly not Boeing rated otherwise he'd have been offered a LH position.

I'm Boeing rating and passed Sept 2016 and I know loads of other Boeing rated pilots who passed after me. I've not received any calls, so it's safe to assume the LH DEP calls for us Boeing swimmers hasn't got into June 2016 yet (based on fr666 passing in May).

People above have said they have (or know people who have) been offered A320 positions based on already being rated and they passed their selection after me.

My worry for you is this part of their email, 'We have some shorthaul offers for those of you that aren’t rated' has already taken place. I believe they'll be able to get more A320 people in during this current drive before you get to the top of 'this' part of the list. Hope I'm wrong for you, but judging by their emails I wouldn't have much hope.

Since when are you king of the hold pool?

BA do change their requirement from time to time so excuse the poor guy for asking.

Massive conclusions jumped to here with little or no information more than anyone else.

Perhaps BA haven’t called because of your outrageous posts on this thread? If by your previous posts BA isn’t for you and you’ve taken another offer then leave the rest of us alone and stop posting on here?

[VJW]

Yeah never said I was king of the hold pool- what does that even mean? Assuming BA haven’t called me because of what I write on here is you assuming something with little or no evidence.

Like it or not- what I wrote is currently fairly accurate to the situation for anyone in the pool who is neither A320 rated or Boeing rated. As that’s what the official message from BA said (and I quoted).

People are always best guessing on here so don’t get your knickers in a twist because I tried to spell out the obvious. I really wonder what type FR666 is currently flying :/

[Flyer2007]

Flyer2007 don't you read the emails from BA? I know things change with BA all the time, however 3 weeks ago they said, 'The longhaul offers for the moment are being made to those with a current Boeing rating.

Initial forecasting shows that the majority of offers for 2018 will be to the A320 with the majority being based at LGW. While we have a number of you in the holdpool who have an A320 rating, the numbers that are being predicted mean we will need more ROT A320 Pilots than there are of you in the holdpool so we will shortly be launching a new A320 recruit on type campaign.'

It's pretty obvious. As you are probably DHC8 rated, you need to be at the top of the DEP holdpool to have a chance at getting an A320 offer if you're not rated on it. Saab0409 recently mentioned he got an A320 offer and he wasn't A320 rated, and clearly not Boeing rated otherwise he'd have been offered a LH position.

I'm Boeing rating and passed Sept 2016 and I know loads of other Boeing rated pilots who passed after me. I've not received any calls, so it's safe to assume the LH DEP calls for us Boeing swimmers hasn't got into June 2016 yet (based on fr666 passing in May).

People above have said they have (or know people who have) been offered A320 positions based on already being rated and they passed their selection after me.

My worry for you is this part of their email, 'We have some shorthaul offers for those of you that aren’t rated' has already taken place. I believe they'll be able to get more A320 people in during this current drive before you get to the top of 'this' part of the list. Hope I'm wrong for you, but judging by their emails I wouldn't have much hope.

VJW thanks for your reply and apologies if my post came across as uninformed. I have indeed read the emails from BA. Like you say, “for the moment”, hence I was asking the question, as it implies this may change.

I know of someone who is Boeing, but non rated from a June sim and has been offered a LH course, so I trust they’re past May now.

My Dash rating has long expired and indeed in the same boat as you.

As there have been no numbers given regarding LH requirements I felt it was a valid question to get an indication whether they needed more than just Boeing rated for LH. Cheers 😊

[VJW]

Until a new email is sent, we’d all be guessing as to the answer to that. Even if someone wrote on here they were ATR rated and had just been offered A380 at BA doesn’t mean that actually happened. I don’t personally expect a SH offer what so ever and re LH the last email mentions that the majority this year will be SH offers. I take that to mean the LH offers probably won’t get to me in Sept 2016. Hopefully for you, you passed before I did.

While I don’t think we’ve been treated amazingly well, BA to their credit have always kept us up to date and nothing has happened without us being notified first (I refer most recently when they told us A320 DEP was opening again- and it opened that evening). Why they wouldn’t email us before taking non Boeing rated people onto LH just sounds unlikely, because as I said, we’ve always been kept up to date with their plans for 1-2 years already.

[Love_joy]

I think we've all read the updates from Lucy/BA. If you're anything like me you read, and re-read it trying to glean anything from the bits between the lines.

The 'plan' appears to change as often as the weather, so to come on here and ask for the latest news and rumours, like Flyer2007 did, seems a fair thing to do.

One question though VJW, if you're so anti-BA these days, and have gone elsewhere with the LCC's; why are you so interested?

[VJW]

When have you seen me ask for updates on here? I’ve simply given my opinions at times where I thought I had something to add.

People need to stop implying that people cannot or shouldn’t be interested in any thread on a forum. That’s not how forums or democracy generally work.

I worked as hard as everyone else to pass and can vent frustrations if I want, even after admitting my descision not to join. Just click the ignore button I won’t mind.

[efarto]

Hope I'm wrong for you, but judging by their emails I wouldn't have much hope.

Hardly inspiring is it.

Hope is all swimmers have, don’t take that away from people when you know yourself how quickly things can change. Look at the conference call information versus what happened a few weeks later. With a new DFO and a big problem of crewing to solve anything could happen. I know it’s ‘easy’ for you to say with all the opportunities you’ve bragged about on here, but some us of have all our eggs in one basket and don’t need people like you cancelling hope.

Whilst you (quote yourself on here) can’t wait to say no to them on the phone spare a though for the people who need to say yes.

[VJW]

Yeah it’s not my fault. I don’t need to come on here to be inspiring. I have a state of mind based purely on emails received by BA for 18 months.

I spare a thought for all of us, we shouldn’t have to through all of that process to not be called. From reading the most recent email, there are going to be some in the pool who won’t get a call. I’ve said a number of times of course I’m aware things can easily change, but doesn’t anyone else get that impression at the moment?

Again I can give my opinion, you don’t have to take any notice, but my opinion is what it is. I didn’t have much hope when they first emailed us saying no jobs expected in 2018 so I went and got myself ONE other option and am in the process of taking it as I still don’t think BA will call me. There are better jobs out there than where I am currently and I have hedged my bets in looking after my family long term.

I’ve only ever made comments on what I think- this is what a forum is for.

[wiggy]

With a new DFO and a big problem of crewing to solve anything could happen. ..

Welcome (possibly) to BA and the “BA way” ....the emphasised bit is why I tried to stop offering anything approximating advice a few months back.......

Wonder what the latest “anything can happen” will be”...just seen the latest LHR TAF and the usual missive that arrived at about the same time about “ minding how you go” on the way to work...but make sure you get here....but make sure you don’t bust 90 minutes.......;)

Seriously, hope it all works out for the swimmers...now where did I put the uniform pullover :confused: oh hang on, we have a heavy...:E

Belated edit to add. With regard to some of the glowing endorsements about rostering - having had to time to spare this evening I have been browsing elsewhere and noticed there is suddenly a lot of heated traffic on company yammer about how bad roster stability actually is for the v junior on some fleets...I think the gripe is whilst Blindlines and Triplines are solid there are new joiners experiencing a high frequency of reserve lines vs. what was promised by the recruiting team (specifically recruiting team saying about one a year, people actually working four in a year), high incidence of TASS, etc, and other complaints.. .any of the newish joiners here care to comment?

[Love_joy]

Wiggy, any idea what the latest chatter is for those of us non-type rated, and currently enjoying time on aircraft more "exotic" than the usual line up or Airbus and Boeing?

[4468]

high frequency of reserve lines vs. what was promised by the recruiting team (specifically recruiting team saying one a year, people working four in a year)
Likely connected to the increasing numbers of pilots who are no longer able to be assigned Reserve!

Combined with the ludicrous Reserve Banding system!

[vrb03kt]

Likely connected to the increasing numbers of pilots who are no longer able to be assigned Reserve!

Combined with the ludicrous Reserve Banding system!

"No longer able to be assigned reserve". Would you mind explaining that please? Reserve is currently one of the least attractive prospects for me as a long haul hold pool swimmer. I would go almost as far as to say it could make the difference between me accepting an offer or not. That being said, not being in the company I probably don't fully understand the system. Some of my junior friends seem to do a lot of reserve and I don't fancy 4 21 day periods a year for the next 10 years where I have so little advance notice of what I am working.

[4468]

Certainly on LH, under current rules, Right to Request part timers can never do Reserve, even if they want to! Under current rules Aspirational part time workers will hardly ever do Reserve either. Both the of these situations are due to the fact that you need a 28 day ‘window’ of availability on your line of work to fit a Reserve block in. RTR never have such a window. With leave and DFW, Aspirational bidders hardly ever have ‘availability’ either.

Combined with the unjustifiable system of Reserve Banding. On LH in particular, with the increasing uptake of PTWK, it can’t be long before we see every junior full time worker doing Reserve pretty much whenever they have a 28 day window? (Though I’ve a vague recollection you can’t be assigned Reserve in consecutive months??)

On HSB, you have to reach the crew car park in 2 hours, so if you live close to Heathrow, it might suit you? If you’re planning to commute, it certainly won’t. You will also lose control of any earned allowances. You may be busy. You may not work at all.

On the up side, it generally, though not always, starts with a 7 day block off.

Enjoy!

Oh, and of course, a few have to be on Reserve over Xmas and New Year! Much less popular even than being assigned a trip. At least with a trip, six weeks out, you can make family plans etc! I did notice on my fleet, there were a surprisingly high number of pilots who felt too ill to work Xmas Day!

Which is a bit of a shame!

[wiggy]

Wiggy, any idea what the latest chatter is for those of us non-type rated, and currently enjoying time on aircraft more "exotic" than the usual line up or Airbus and Boeing?

Sorry, no idea but one of the better informed might be able to help out.

As for the questions/comments about vulnerability to reserve, it is as 4468 describes: the various part time contracts have removed eligibility/vulnerability for a lot of people and as a consequence has increased the loading on the full timers...yes, it is certainly possible to be awarded or assigned a Long Haul reserve block (28days) as an aspirational part timer, especially if you are on 72%, but it doesn’t happen that often for those on the 58% deal. One partial solution might have been shorter reserve blocks and I thought there was some talk of that being introduced along with JSS but that hasn’t materialised.

[GS-Alpha]

Certainly on LH, under current rules, Right to Request part timers can never do Reserve, even if they want to!
Are you ‘certain’ about that?

[Stretchwell]

RTR part timers definitely do Reserve. It’s all in BLRs. There is a form to bid for dates otherwise you can be assigned. HTH

[Jumbo2]

Combined with the unjustifiable system of Reserve Banding. On LH in particular, with the increasing uptake of PTWK, it can’t be long before we see every junior full time worker doing Reserve pretty much whenever they have a 28 day window? (Though I’ve a vague recollection you can’t be assigned Reserve in consecutive months??)



But what you described are exactly why joining as a direct entry pilot onto a longhaul fleet is not the be-all.

Joining as a DEP LH you are joining on a much more senior fleet where everyone joining the fleet, apart from a few new entry pilots recruited after you onto the fleet, will be more senior then yourself. Even pilots moving from SH to LH will be more senior then yourself. Blindlines, or under jss getting maximum optimalisation, are all you will be doing for up to 5 years (unless significant amounts of new recruits join behind you on the fleet).

On SH as a new entrent you should be able to climb the fleet seniority list by around 15 to 20% a year were as on LH as a new entrant because of the above you will be hovering at the bottom for the best part of the first 5 years. That is the beauty of a seniority based system were it doesn’t really matter if new pilots go directly onto LH bypassing SH. Once that SH pilot moves to LH (s)he will get the higher roster satisfaction.
(Before flying hours are mentioned as a right to bypass SH. On my SH joiners course the least experienced pilot had 3000 hours)

Also the SH pilots moving to LH will have done around 5 years in the company and thus get more points for a reserve period then yourself. Joining the fleet, you start with the fleet average reserve points, but will have to do more often a reserve period then the pilots 5 years and 10 years in the company. On SH you will find just a few pilots longer in the company then 5/10 years so most are in the same band resulting in having to do less reserves then the new entry LH pilot. One might argue this banding system is not fair but most join on SH and will have done a fair few reserve periods on SH which are much harder then a LH reserve.

Holiday and Xmas are based on a point system and are the same for SH and LH. You start off with 0 so run a fair chance of not getting your first 2 Xmasses off, after which you should be able to. Holidays are the same. If you take a peak week summer school holiday as your week off you get less points then a for a week in the middle of November. The more points you have the more likely you will get the holiday over a periond you bit for.

[Pilotless]

Hey, what's with all this fretting about silly little aspects of your job when you're blind to the looming threat of job displacement through Artifical Intelligence. Just enjoy flying planes to earn a salary. Whilst you still can. FFS, stop bitching like a load of spoilt pansies and wake up! The world 'out there' is far more interesting and good fun.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this thread. Amazing insight and right on subject. Think you maybe looking for the Daily Mail.

[Callsign Kilo]

Hope is all swimmers have, don’t take that away from people when you know yourself how quickly things can change

They can change quickly, however VJW is correct in saying that things may not turn out well. They haven’t on a number of occasions. I’m not sure what BA recruitment do regarding hold pool extension periods (went from 12 to 18 months when I was swimming back in 2012) however when it was over it was over. Reapply and start again was the only option. BA will never have a shortage in applicants, the fossett never seems to dry up.

Regardless, always best to have a plan B in aviation.

[vrb03kt]

If they do let everyone in the hold pool drown, what an absolute waste of time and money that will have been.

I’m hoping that with their current focus on costs they will recognise that expiring the hold pool would be squandering all the money spent on interviews/sims.

[Callsign Kilo]

Maybe, however at the time when I was in the pool a very senior BA Captain explained something to me. He agreed that waving goodbye to a pool of experienced pilots, who were in continued flying practice and whom had considerable time & money invested in their recruitment, was indeed criminal. However, according to him, if this had been the 'done thing' in BA since the dawn of time then it could be a very difficult process to change, especially if the people who were in support of it were any way influential (leading members of HR! ;) )

However, back in 2012/13, circumstances were quite different. IAG were to purchase bmi and as a result they would be required to integrate a massive number of pilots onto the BA list. PP24 would also no longer be available, something that was on the cards when I entered the pool! Additionally, the first batch of the FPP lads and ladies would filter through and would take priority (could you imagine the PR disaster if they didn't get flying jobs!). Towards the end of my tenure in the pool, the forecast for any further DEP recruitment was bleak. Little did anyone know that in under 12 months it would skyrocket to beyond anything that the airline had ever encountered. Funny place aviation. Luckily my plan B came to fruition around this time and I haven't looked back. Still, in hindsight, it was nice to have a go at the DEP assessments and be successful (well, sort of successful).

[Time Traveller]

All other operators I have encountered require a repeat of the assessment if more than 12 months has elapsed without starting employment.

[Phantom4]

BA considering outsourcing training.Bad idea.DFO resigned over this.

[Stocious]

BA considering outsourcing training.Bad idea.DFO resigned over this.

Rumour. Correct. Rumour.

[jettropo]

I have to say I'm becoming highly sceptical of who is writing some of these replies. FR Management possibly to stem to the outflow of pilots and attract newcomers?.. Nothing surprises me! It crosses my mind as some of the comments are not balanced and very anti BA, suggesting FR maybe better.

Madness and very worrying! Whilst I can't comment on Easy and whether people maybe happy to stay there, the only thing I can say is 4 sector days are not enjoyable and the lack of variety in the job over a lifetime would surely become dull for most.

I can comment on FR and stress it is not a nice place to work for many many reasons. Firstly the money is only better if you are based in the UK or Ireland on a fr contract(Captain). Anywhere else in Europe it's not. Tax situation is messy and its pointless comparing pay to contractor guys as they are most probably avoiding paying tax for the most part which is a risky and stressful game.

Ive witnessed HMRC chasing guys down in crew rooms and heard of police involvement around Europe. Not knowing if you will have your home repossesed if you ever get caught out is not a way to live and guys talk about running off to the Middle East if it ever came to it to avoid prosecution.

Personally I didn't get involved in any of that as its not worth the stress. So money aside whats its like. Everyone is miserable. I don't know many people who enjoy going to work. 4 sector days plus are hell and doing that 5 days in a row with minimum rest will probably put guys in an early grave. The guys doing it a long time In there 50's look exhausted and have an emptiness in their eyes.

Being based in London Stansted is a miserable. Crap facilities (most in the network becoming portacabin's) , no one smiles, you look like a janitor wearing the ridiculous blue company coat, people don't like you because you work for fr, no pride in the job, lack of respect from most people. No pay for standbys, no pay for anything outside of block hours so delays you work for free ( there are a lot of delays!), no food or drinks even when you have been working for free for 8 hours sat at the gate. Constantly being disturbed during rest periods to do favours and change duties.

Management have little respect for you and are always on the offensive. People are being called to head office to explain being sick for as little as 3/4 days in the year and given formal warnings and threatened that they will be dismissed if they call in sick again. If you have a few minutes delay for very legitimate reasons then expect to be called up by management who will blame you and give you a warning. Such a joy operating for them.

Also If guys are getting paid more than BA, remember that FR pilots are working their absolute max hours in the conditions mentioned. Money certainly isn't everything and especially if its only marginally more, having to put up with so much. Hotels are truly dreadful with no transfers arranged a lot of the time(wait months to be paid back for expenses).

I could go on and on with endless examples. Everything I've mentioned is 100% true with no exaggeration. The proof is in the pudding. Masses are leaving FR and more than 80% of guys I talk to are applying to leave. Anyone defending it, defend the statistics as they speak for themselves.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Well, having just read the last 2 weeks worth I’m sorely tempted to withdraw from the holdpool; just to reduce the likelihood of ever having to sit next to VJW on a LH flight.😜

A bit harsh I feel. He/she only saying it as he/she sees it. And actually if you do withdraw the likelihood increases.

[student88]

2015 - I left easyJet and joined BA on the A320.

I love the job and I'm happy I work for BA (it isn't perfect and its best days are certainly behind it, but name me an airline where this isn't true), overall I'm glad I left easyJet.

Take the negative comments here with a pinch of salt, the problem with most of the bitter old BA pilots is that they've only ever worked for BA and they don't realise how good they've had it, or how good they currently have it.

They'll tell you the 747 is a sh1t fleet to be on, that it used to be fantastic - but if you're joining from easyJet/Ryanair it's still going to be a fantastic experience compared to lugging 180 tracksuit wearing Brits around Europe.

[Tay Cough]

They'll tell you the 747 is a sh1t fleet to be on, that it used to be fantastic - but if you're joining from easyJet/Ryanair it's still going to be a fantastic experience compared to lugging 180 tracksuit wearing Brits around Europe.

I rarely sing BA's praises. They haven't (yet) managed to f e c k up the 747 fleet. It does shorter trips now than the SIN-SYD and similar epics of the past - suits me as I like shorter trips - but it's a good place to be, despite being relatively junior.

Happiness remains V1 at LHR though.:}

[student88]

For me it comes once I've left the BS bravado of the CRC behind.

Some pilots are currently getting their knickers in a twist because current ops have made voluntary airport standby available for long haul pilots to help with snow disruption - BUT THESE ARE ONLY MEANT FOR SHORT HAUL PILOTS! God forbid..

If you don't want to do it don't volunteer and move on with your life.

:ugh:

[blimey]

Happiness remains V1 at LHR though.

Crew car park in the rear view mirror.

[wiggy]

Student88

, the problem with most of the bitter old BA pilots is that they've only ever worked for BA


Want to put some numbers on that? I can’t speak for the bitterness percentage but the top of the seniority list is actually more diverse in terms of background than it has ever been, or possibly likely to be...

The older pilots are mostly mid 1980’s/ early 90’s DEPs who almost all had been around the block a bit and had flown for some time before joining BA (ex-mil/Brittania/Air Europe/ and a thousand and one outfits now long forgotten...plus a few who came up the self improver route) plus a few of the very senior original ex Prestwick cadets who you obviously can tag as only ever working for BA. It’s no longer rammed with pilots who went through the same training school on the south coast.

[GKOC41]

Take the negative comments here with a pinch of salt, the problem with most of the bitter old BA pilots is that they've only ever worked for BA and they don't realise how good they've had it, or how good they currently have it.
Wiggy is correct, it used to be BA "Nigels" now its Rupperts

[Northern Monkey]

Student88




Want to put some numbers on that? I can’t speak for the bitterness percentage but the top of the seniority list is actually more diverse in terms of background than it has ever been, or possibly likely to be...

The older pilots are mostly mid 1980’s/ early 90’s DEPs who almost all had been around the block a bit and had flown for some time before joining BA (ex-mil/Brittania/Air Europe/ and a thousand and one outfits now long forgotten...plus a few who came up the self improver route) plus a few of the very senior original ex Prestwick cadets who you obviously can tag as only ever working for BA. It’s no longer rammed with pilots who went through the same training school on the south coast.

While that may be true, most of the stories I hear sitting in the RHS are about how great life used to be back then. 7 days in the Caribbean, bus juice, one out one back to somewhere in Europe. I don't often hear stories about how awful the old days were and how great it is now.

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that most BA captains, certainly most LH BA Captains at any rate, are unlikely to have experienced the real low-cost world that started with the birth of Ryanair. How many could honestly hold their hands up and say they have worked 5 days of 4 sector days, 25 minute turn arounds, helping to clean the aircraft, filling up water bottles from taps outside portacabins, not getting any food or drink provided, paying for their own hotels...the list goes on.

Full disclosure; I can't say I've experienced that level of low cost either. It sounds horrific and I tend to agree with jettropo above that its interesting, at the very least, that people have popped up on this thread to make the case for Ryanair, just as BA launches a large recruitment drive. Particularly bearing in mind the well documented retention issues at Ryanair currently.

EDITED to add: Many of us in the RHS won't have experience of ultra low cost either. My point is that whether we like to admit it or not, some (most, all?) of us have probably forgotten or never knew the worst excesses of the low-cost end of the industry. I'm not suggesting we shouldn't fight to protect what we have either, just that we should be aware that what we have is still a pretty good deal, comparatively speaking.

[wiggy]

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that most BA captains, certainly most LH BA Captains at any rate, are unlikely to have experienced the real low-cost world that started with the birth of Ryanair.

True, but that wasn’t the claim being made in the post I responded to...

How many could honestly hold their hands up and say they have worked 5 days of 4 sector days, 25 minute turn arounds, helping to clean the aircraft, filling up water bottles from taps outside portacabins, not getting any food or drink provided, paying for their own hotels...the list goes on

But we are back to the four Yorkshiremen sketch again....I don’t remember being pampered in that portion of my flying career in the 70s and 80s in my life before BA - being ******rushed, hassled, secondary tasks (sometimes unpleasant) not even staying in hotels, buying your own food etc etc isn’t something new and it wasn’t something suddenly invented by the LoCo sector 20 years ago....I’ll resist the urge to tell folks to pull up a chair...

I think some of the supposed “ bitterness” is down to some of the older pilots experiences before BA, and their intimate knowledge, gained from years of experience of how “BA” can behave when it suits them.

BTW I take it those here who couldn’t get to work because of the snow have written their letter to the headmaster.........

[jettropo]

The realities of the Irish world may seem like they are many hours flight time away when you fly longhaul for BA but rest assured the aircraft is heading in that direction and it's only a matter of time before you land and you might not know it until you are filling up your water bottle outside the Heathrow porta cabin on day 5.

I doubt that very much as the pilots in BA are in a totally different situation to those in FR. Proper union recognition with the power to take action with all pilots on the same contract in 2 UK hubs. Also BA has a customer base that would be more wary of booking with an airline with potential strikes than those customers at FR who are mostly price driven and return to buy more tickets even if they have been disrupted in the past. BA pilots have far more power within their airline to not let things get to those lengths.

[Mizar]

Right so..... back on the pool topic, any further info out these days?

[rustynut]

This threat has been off topic for far too long now! If your stupid enough to believe the majority of recent comments on here, don’t apply!

If your not, apply and come on in! It’s great, Iv never been happier!

[zero/zero]

If your not, apply and come on in! It’s great, Iv never been happier!

To be fair that’s largely dependent on what you were doing previously...

[rustynut]

To be fair that’s largely dependent on what you were doing previously...

As in working for an Orange LoCo....?

[Love_joy]

Right so..... back on the pool topic, any further info out these days?

Nothing, things have gone very quiet whilst they shake the Airbus tree.

[4468]

I don't think it's unfair to suggest that most BA captains, certainly most LH BA Captains at any rate, are unlikely to have experienced the real low-cost world that started with the birth of Ryanair. How many could honestly hold their hands up and say they have worked 5 days of 4 sector days, 25 minute turn arounds, helping to clean the aircraft, filling up water bottles from taps outside portacabins, not getting any food or drink provided, paying for their own hotels...the list goes on.
Oh, how very, very true!

However. I have worked 14 consecutive (LONG!) Days. Living in a sleeping bag. In a freezing cold tent. Going flying wearing an AR5 respirator. Eating cardboard sandwiches, from a cardboard box! Without a pot to p1ss in! (Swing the Tillie!) All in the mid eighties. A year or two before “low-cost” (perhaps even you?) was a twinkle in Stelios, and/or MoL’s eye?

(In fact elsewhere, I believe my record was 28 consecutive days on duty. Available for call out 24 hours a day!!)

Oh, and at times, people were shooting at me!

But of course, being one of those LH Jonnies, I’ve never known what REAL hardship is!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I defer to your superior experience.

Four Yorkshiremen indeed!

And yet, I have also known, 7 day trips to the Caribbean! Bus juice. One out, one back. Etc. Etc.

Does that make me a bad person??

Yet bizarrely, actually. The times in a scratcher in a tent were by a country mile, the best of my life!

Just because you’re sitting next to a fat old git in the LHS. Please don’t presume you’ve lived the same life they have! You MAY not be entirely correct!

[Northern Monkey]

Oh dear. I suppose I should have seen that coming really.

I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on those who have served in unpleasant conditions at Her Majesty's pleasure, or indeed anyone else who has worked different unpleasant jobs in other industries. No doubt there are countless examples of both. But then this not too brief diversion from the main topic of this thread has been about commercial aviation (which makes money for shareholders) and the stark differences between BA and some low cost carriers.

I think this point provides a good opportunity to retire from the debate and let it drift back to the central theme of BA recruitment.

[The Blu Riband]

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't fight to protect what we have either, just that we should be aware that what we have is still a pretty good deal, comparatively speaking.

So, other than having a dig at captains, what's your point?

Either senior pilots stand up for you, and try to fight deteriorating t&c's or they don't.
It would appear you'll criticise them either way.

[bailey7]

Hi guys,

Understand its been mentioned a lot in the past, but could not find any info/examples on the following for the Day 1 assessment:
- The new style Verbal Reasoning test
- The current computer tests being used

If anyone could post any info it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Mizar]

Bailey,

Computer based tests you will find examples on latestpilotjob.com under BA section, for the verbal resoning you do not need real practice like the older days but I guess if you type in on google Follow instructions verbal test you will get a good idea of what you are expected to do.

Hope it helps.

[Magnus456]

Bailey,

Computer based tests you will find examples on latestpilotjob.com under BA section, for the verbal resoning you do not need real practice like the older days but I guess if you type in on google Follow instructions verbal test you will get a good idea of what you are expected to do.

Hope it helps.

Thanks for the info Mizar.

The email invitation for day 1 still gives SHL practise papers for the old style verbal test. And suggests we still do the two computer based tests. Perhaps they have gone back to the old way of things ?

[Mizar]

Don't know about that, last test I have done was different than the one they used to give. Best guess for you is to probably give them a ring and see what is exactly on storage.

[Mizar]

Just received the good news 747 starting in June, Sim done october 16 boeing rated. Any other here on the same offer?

[SkilledBoot]

Nice one Mizar!

Have any other Airbus guys been called recently? If so, when did you complete the sim check?

~ Thanks

[Youngaviator254]

Congrats Mizar, excellent news, I had my sim October too and Boeing rated, was you early Oct? Good luck.

[Mizar]

Early october correct

[thetimesreader84]

@skilledboot;

Yes, A320 Rated, called 2 weeks ago for a start in May, Sim early Dec.

[Jwscud]

I also know personally of more 787/747 offers going out over the last week or so. Down to Sep/Oct 16 sim dates for long haul offers I believe.

[Wakarider]

Great news!!! For all of you getting start dates exciting times!!! 🤞🏾for those applying and in the hold. Hopefully a few DEP’s will come onto 380, we’ll need a few more!!!

[Mr Fahrenheit]

So with all these offers going out which is great news. How many NTR LH people are there still waiting that did their sim October and before ?
Please reply back with a ‘yes and date of sim’
Thanks all.

[polepilot]

Random question...... does anyone know which car park is used by BA at gatwick? Cheers

[Basil]

Random question...... does anyone know which car park is used by BA at gatwick? Cheers
Why do you want to know?

[Love_joy]

NTR, jet & TP time. Currently LHS of a non-Boeing >50T jet.

Sim in June, have offers on the table, just not from BA yet.

[recall_checked]

Random question...... does anyone know which car park is used by BA at gatwick? Cheers

The rubbish one. Car park x.

[JulietSierra6]

The rubbish one. Car park x.

No it’s not. Why post if you don’t know the answer? Cabin crew use X. We use a different one. Why the interest? You can walk to the terminal, I suppose that’s the useful thing to know.

[Dupre]

Continuing on the track off getting to work at BA, is it possible/practical to go to work by public transport? (LHR and LGW)

[shabon]

Continuing on the track off getting to work at BA, is it possible/practical to go to work by public transport? (LHR and LGW)

Well that would depend on where you live?

Im in southwest London Zone 2 and go into work with the tube to LHR or a bus and train to LGW. Cant justify having a car which I would barely use!

[Dupre]

Well that would depend on where you live?

Im in southwest London Zone 2 and go into work with the tube to LHR or a bus and train to LGW. Cant justify having a car which I would barely use!

Is sign on at the airport terminal, or a separate location? e.g. Waterside at LHR.

I don't live in the UK now, but this question is relevant for where to consider living if/when I do move back. To be fair, I'm not even in the hold pool yet, but nothing like a bit of blind optimism!

Thanks

[Eddie_Crane]

Is sign on at the airport terminal, or a separate location? e.g. Waterside at LHR.


You'll swipe in for report at either T5 LHR if LHr based or LGW South airside if LGW based.
If you're LH and dual based, you'll swipe in as above at LHR and at Atlantic House landside for LGW reports.

[RexBanner]

Continuing on the track off getting to work at BA, is it possible/practical to go to work by public transport? (LHR and LGW)

Heathrow based (commuter) and use nothing but public transport to get to work.

[Boeing 7E7]

Random question...... does anyone know which car park is used by BA at gatwick? Cheers

Y car park

[Boeing 7E7]

Another wrong answer. To put an end to it, we park in car park H.

The ones using Y are not real BA Pilots?

[Stocious]

No BA pilots are in Y these days.

[banterbus]

Don't quite understand the need to have answered that question; from an outsider looking in I would consider those kind of requests with a little more caution... what is to gain by giving someone you don't know that information??!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Don't quite understand the need to have answered that question; from an outsider looking in I would consider those kind of requests with a little more caution... what is to gain by giving someone you don't know that information??!

I completely agree but if the person asking the question is up to no good at least he will now be totally perplexed by the array of answers!

[polepilot]

Why would anyone wanting to know about a car park used at an airport by an employer in a thread about joining that employer be such a weird question that should be met with ‘caution’. Is it impossible that someone might just have been at gatwick where ba are recruiting and wants a heads up on it? Just a thought...

[JulietSierra6]

To be fair I initially thought the same, but at second glance I think Polepilot is right. Hence I gave the answer. It’s hardly highly sensitive information. As we all know bad parking arrangements can really make life unnecessarily difficult. We are lucky at LGW to have a short walk to the terminal, rather than limited spaces and an unreliable 10 min bus ride.

[banterbus]

Polepilot, completely understand, I'm just taking it at face value, and what is to be gained by releasing that information - behind a forum you will never know peoples' true motives for asking details on employees of a particular company, and their routine which they have to complete on a daily basis.

That's all, it's just an observation - I guess I'm just a bit more cynical than most!

Slight deviation off topic for which I apologise - very envious of those getting calls - congratulations!

[average-punter]

A very valid question as he's probably suffered the misery of car park x in a previous airline

[bex88]

The ex BMI guys (not all but most) and now some of the more senior SH bods have a car park you walk to the terminal from at LHR. It makes a huge difference not to have to wait for a bus. It’s probably not much quicker if you time the bus right but the walk is a welcome break unless the rain is in your face.

[efarto]

Anybody know the width of the bays at the BA car park? I’m thinking of joining and this might be the deciding factor!

Let’s keep it on topic....

[reeko]

Any more recruitment planned? Anyone in the know?

[RexBanner]

Rumour has it there has been a massive miscalculation of pilot manpower levels (possibly one of the issues in part that caused the departure of the DFO) and hence it wouldn’t surprise me to see a new campaign open up, depends whether network will have just had to adjust their plans though.

[polepilot]

A very valid question as he's probably suffered the misery of car park x in a previous airline

Indeed I have!

[reeko]

Rumour has it there has been a massive miscalculation of pilot manpower levels (possibly one of the issues in part that caused the departure of the DFO) and hence it wouldn’t surprise me to see a new campaign open up, depends whether network will have just had to adjust their plans though.

Wonder how many of those left in the paddling pool will still accept if offered. Surely that will make an impact on that too?

[cycles gladiator]

Hi guys.

An assessment for DEC coming up at Waterside. Is parking there an issue? Many thanks.

[RHINO]

Which fleet have you a 'DEC' interview for?

[cycles gladiator]

Which fleet have you a 'DEC' interview for?

Sorry RHINO. It was meant to be DEP. Airbus320 based at LGW.

Parking at Waterside?

[rustynut]

There is no parking at Waterside unless you work there and even so that is extremely limited. Unfortunately there is basically no parking near Waterside apart from a carpark on a road nearby(tarmac way) but it becomes completely congested in the morning, its not actually anything to do with BA but first comes first served(nature reserve parking?). I wouldn't rely on parking here.

The best bet is to basically park at short term airport parking and get a bus, or get a lift..

Others might have better ideas but its not ideal, Waterside is very close to the airport itself, so as you can imagine, parking is very limited and at a premium!

[patm92]

Anyone been through the Day 1 Assessment recently, looking for some information about it all? Apparently the style of testing has changed from what BA did a while ago?

[cycles gladiator]

Thanks Rusty.

[Capt Ecureuil]

There IS parking at Swampside.

Either turn right at the roundabout and through the barrier with the code security give you to the visitors carpark, or turn left and parking up by the Community (or whatever they call it) portacabin.

Do they really not give you any information about parking when they invite for an interview?

[FoxChaRomeo]

Parking at Waterside?

When I went through there was some pretty explicit information available on the recruitment portal about not parking at Waterside, but at T5 and taking the staff bus... maybe have a read through that again.

[cycles gladiator]

When I went through there was some pretty explicit information available on the recruitment portal about not parking at Waterside, but at T5 and taking the staff bus... maybe have a read through that again.

Train then bus is the general info.

[wiggy]

Re: travelling for interview, etc..yes, there is parking at Waterside but given even existing staff temporarily visiting Waterside (e.g. for a medical) find parking there somewhat problematic due to lack of space I’d second the advice given to use public transport and/or one the frequent shuttle buses....especially if you are up against the clock...

If you really really have to drive into LHR then consider using one of the perimeter car parks and then either their own shuttle buses, or one of the TfL buses (hopefully within the free zone) to travel onwards..FWIW the weekday BA1 shuttle bus that goes via T5 and Waterside actually picks up/drops off up at Hatton Cross at one end of it’s route, and Harlington Corner at the other....just don’t forget your letter...

[cycles gladiator]

Seems like that is the thing to do. Thanks. May get a lift if I’m lucky.

[ifonlyiknew]

Has anyone recently undertaken day one assessment. If so can I ask if is the same tests as before or have they changed it slightly since 2015?

Any feedback much appreciated.

[Serenity]

Any updates or info from those who have been through this weeks process please ???

[cycles gladiator]

Unfortunately got caught up in the tail back on M25 caused by a 4 vehicle crash. I hope all those involved are okay. I will live another day. Let’s hope BA see it the same way.
Waiting to see.

[3Greens]

unfortunate, but frankly, forseeable. Why didn’t you book a local hotel? Schoolboy error.

[student88]

unfortunate, but frankly, forseeable. Why didn’t you book a local hotel? Schoolboy error.

Ignore him ^

Sorry to hear about your M25 experience! I would have found it extremely stressful! Good news is the people in pilot recruitment are actually very understanding and decent people so I'm sure they won't hold it against you.

Fingers crossed you'll get another assessment day booked and you'll be joining us soon after :)

[cycles gladiator]

Ignore him ^

Sorry to hear about your M25 experience! I would have found it extremely stressful! Good news is the people in pilot recruitment are actually very understanding and decent people so I'm sure they won't hold it against you.

Fingers crossed you'll get another assessment day booked and you'll be joining us soon after :)

Thanks. Waiting. Keeping calm.

[bex88]

Cycles gladiator: I would not worry about BA this happens everyday with pilots, cabin crew, managers etc. Most times I call to say I am in traffic they can tell me what the cause is and what the delays are likely to be. I would be very proactive in getting back into the recruitment system and if you have numbers pick up the phone and speak to someone then follow it up with an email etc. The last thing you want to do is fall into a dark hole within the computer booking system. Anyone coming down the M4 today at about 7am got stuffed too.

[3Greens]

Yes ignore by all means. Frankly I can’t believe you wouldn’t book a hotel on th bath road fr every stage. For gods sake there’s only a few stages and it’s £60 a night to eliminate the risk of the M25.
I would say it’s unlikely you’ll get another shot.

[WhatTheDeuce]

I know someone whose car broke down on the way to the interview who is now a long haul captain.

My sim partner was 20 minutes late arriving due to bad traffic on the M25, he got in too.

Disregard the rubbish written above, we've all been there. Don't worry!

[cycles gladiator]

Thanks for all your advice. The wheels are now in motion.

[FACoff]

Yes ignore by all means. Frankly I can’t believe you wouldn’t book a hotel on th bath road fr every stage. For gods sake there’s only a few stages and it’s £60 a night to eliminate the risk of the M25.
I would say it’s unlikely you’ll get another shot.

On that basis, you'll be in a hotel before every duty I presume? Unless your crystal ball advises you in advance of every single pile up on the M25.

The BA assessment takes enough out of you without adding unnecessary financial cost as well. Travel, parking, practice sims, (hotels) - it all adds up. And that's assuming you do it only once.

CG - hope you get it rearranged and good luck with it.

[student88]

I wouldn't recommend paying for a practice sim either. It isn't necessary to get the job offer.

[FACoff]

You might not have done one yourself, but I imagine those who did (and got in) don't regret it.

[student88]

I suppose, but it isn't necessary to succeed is all I'm saying - I'm just supporting your comment "The BA assessment takes enough out of you without adding unnecessary financial cost as well."..

[zero/zero]

It’s a funny old profession when people are happy to pay £100k+ for their training, £1k on a Bose headset etc and yet don’t want to spend £60 for a hotel room when they have an assessment with the national carrier.

Aside from anything else, the delayed assessment might cost you 50-100 places on the seniority list, which might make all the difference to your lifestyle and cost you 6 months Captain’s salary down the line. Each to their own I suppose

[3Greens]

On that basis, you'll be in a hotel before every duty I presume? Unless your crystal ball advises you in advance of every single pile up on the M25.

The BA assessment takes enough out of you without adding unnecessary financial cost as well. Travel, parking, practice sims, (hotels) - it all adds up. And that's assuming you do it only once.

CG - hope you get it rearranged and good luck with it.

For duties starting prior to a 10am, yes I do actually. I live 100miles away and know what the UK motorway system can be like. Each to their own, but if you are going for a job interview for pilot with BA, I simply cannot believe you wouldn’t factor in such details like making sure you get there on time, and without being subjected to unnecessary stress.

[wiggy]

Why don't you live in Hounslow?

I’m sure there’s an answer to that..:oh:

[Nil further]

3 greens

You won’t be living 100 miles away for very long if the rumours are true about the CAA puting a stop to any commute that is not 90 mins or less on AA route finder

Rumour is they are in BA now looking at this ?

[wiggy]

3 greens

You won’t be living 100 miles away for very long if the rumours are true about the CAA puting a stop to any commute that is not 90 mins or less on AA route finder

Rumour is they are in BA now looking at this ?

They are not going to stop people living more than 100 miles from LHR.....

For those not in the loop the fact is there is a current audit of “flying commuters”. In the run up to that audit management described what they and the CAA regard as sensible commutes, (both flying and drive) and from what they describe it will certainly be possible to live more than 100 miles away and fly in or drive in provided you make arrangements to ensure you are rested at report.

That generally seems to be not flying in overnight and as for a driver.. well they probably would throw the book at somebody if they found out they left home at e.g 2 AM to drive in for an early report......

At the end of the day no matter there’s plenty of accommodation around LHR for pre-flight (or pre-interview) rest. Nobody is going to have to live in the Home Counties or Greater London.

[G SXTY]

Several hotels around LHR offer discounted aircrew rates. All subject to availability, but work on around £40 per night for the likes of the Ibis & Premier Inn. Privately owned B&Bs can be considerably cheaper.

I have found, coming from the other end of the country, that commuting costs (around 4 trips per month and the odd night in a hotel) are no more than what I used to spend on fuel, driving round the M25 five times a week.

[wiggy]

Wot SXTY said...

Some of the perimeter hotels offer crew rates, that may or may not beat the public rate, so caveat emptor, and there are a fair number of crew only B&Bs with bus/walking distance. Somewhere between £25 and £60ish a night would be a fair guess.

The impact in days off is a bit trickier, though not so bad if you are part time and/or long haul.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Imagine if they actually enforced a 90min rule....BA would be cancelling an awful lot of flights for the foreseeable.

Which would cost the company an awful lot of money, which is why the whole audit process is simply to stop the piss taking commuting habits of a minority of crew, no more no less. The CAA will never impose something that severely damages the finances of one of its biggest cash cows. If it does, I’m buying shares in the Premier Inn group.

In other news, great to see some new DEP folks appearing on the seniority list of the long haul fleets - the chap at the bottom of my status list can finally give his shoulders a rest!

[3Greens]

Why do you live 100 miles away? Not very committed to your coveted BA pilot job is it. Why don't you live in Hounslow?

Not that the tone of your post deserves a reply, but BA closed my original base 20 years ago.
If you want the job that badly then to my mind you need to assume the m25 could be snarled up. If you have a different attitude to risk then fair enough.

[Basil]

Recollect, long time ago, a guy sleeping in a VW camper at GLA.

[Buter]

Recollect, long time ago, a guy sleeping in a VW camper at GLA.

Top floor of the LHR car park was my second home for a few years.

[4468]

Not that the tone of your post deserves a reply, but BA closed my original base 20 years ago.
And offered you a generous financial package to relocate, I presume?

The rumour is that BA are ‘after’ a few serial offenders, who think it perfectly acceptable to pax 8-12 hours overnight. (Potentially in economy) Then expect to operate after a little time in the CRC!

They then have a habit of sleeping through much of their operating sector!

From what I’ve heard. BA have a point!

[Basil]

Top floor of the LHR car park was my second home for a few years.
Oh, yes, my dear, I've a penthouse suite in London :E

[overstress]

Top floor of the LHR car park was my second home for a few years.

I wondered who that was!

[Phantom4]

Sim assessments being offered to 320 rated

[Buter]

Oh, yes, my dear, I've a penthouse suite in London :E

My penthouse in Vauxhall Towers, combined with my southern drawl, kept me knee deep in clunge for ages, brother, :}

Sadly, the penthouse got towed away so I’ve got to rely solely on my looks, charm and wit now.

Buter

[SkilledBoot]

Have there been anymore calls made to the hold pool for 320 TR'd?

The last word I heard was from 'thetimesreader84' that they had an early Dec sim date and had been given a start in May.

Any other 320 TR'd people still treading the water?

Thanks

[Paddingtonbear]

Surely it's just a matter of time for everybody in the pool, on the basis that they're putting people through fresh assessments for A320 positions?

[Hot Wings]

Good news! Lindsay Craig is back at the helm.

[Fostex]

Andre as well? Decent guys who actually care about flying, good news.

[Hot Wings]

Not sure about Andre or Andy but hopefully good news for swimmers and future DEPs/cadets. Rumours of being many hundreds short on the pilot front.

[Mizar]

What about the 5 years fleet freeze engagement is it still there or has been removed? If so would you foresee any possible early movement out of the 747 fleet as they are due to retire?

[GS-Alpha]

Where do questions of removal of engagement freeze come from? The engagement freeze has been five years for at least two decades. I cannot see that reducing. If anything, I expect they would like to see it increase.

As for 747 retirements; yes hull numbers have been reducing, but we are years away from people being directed off or released from freezes. In fact at the moment, they cannot get people trained onto it quickly enough!

Are you saying you have been offered a 747 course but you do not really want it?

[wiggy]

The engagement freeze has been five years for at least two decades. I cannot see that reducing. If anything, I expect they would like to see it increase

+1...every course is a cost to the company.....

[ETOPS]

Looks like BA are going to be short of flight crew this summer. This was hinted at a while ago but looks like it’s going to result in extraordinary measures😗

Getting new recruits in is harder when your existing crews are being run ragged just keeping the show on the road....

[student88]

Although we clearly have a stressful summer ahead, I think this is great news for potential DEPs and existing BA pilots generally. Glass half full and all that :ok:

It's also very reassuring to have L.C back in control of Manpower Planning.

[Heathrow09L]

It is great news of potential DEP recruitment, but I really hope LC doesn’t let a whole lot of good potential pilots go for not holding a moving cross or not playing silly cruise ship games, still like in previous recruitment drive, I know its is their train set, but surely the large drive for DEP long haul recruitment and roadshows a few years back in a few Gulf States and Hong Kong for experienced long haul pilot but turning them down must have the cost the company so much money.

I really hope LC can respectfully modernise BA’s recruitment.

[Smooth Airperator]

Modernize indeed. The first step towards fixing any recruitment issue within a company is to get board approval to totally bypass HR and their involvement. HR are a burden and curse on a department's operational needs. I've seen it in multiple industries prior to aviation. Why does a granny from HR who is about to retire think she knows what makes a good BA employee in 2018? Cut out the bull**** and archaic paper based exercises that reveal nothing about experienced pilots that a proper 1 hr chat on a pilot to pilot basis covering background and future desires can't.

Limit the intolerable and most off-putting "describe a situation when..." questions to 2 or 3, not 10! That just pisses adults right off. Some of us are left thinking, what is this nonsense?

Most of us walk away from the BA process feeling deeply annoyed and as if we just interviewed for a high profile city banker's job. In my case bailed out at 2nd stage after an hours worth of pointless questions and during the interview not one operational or tech question was asked. I'm a pilot ffs, treat and test me like one!

Sour grapes? Well yes. When you keep seeing pilots well known to have inferior skills getting hired by BA, it does turn your world a bit sour. I'm sure a lot of people in this room will back me up on this last part.

[Love_joy]

Apparently some offers have been made this week, can anyone elaborate?

[wiggy]

I’n sure the likes of LC would happily cut to the chase....

...during the interview not one operational or tech question was asked. I'm a pilot ffs, treat and test me like one!


I’m with you on this, however above LC s pay grade I suspect we have people who think being able to keep the dot centred and use the three times table isn’t enough...BA also want a “package” that is capable and willing to drop everything in the middle of a foreign vacation to go to an local airport airport to operate back to U.K. in the stead of a sick colleague, and during the flight take an image of their crew meal which they will portray in an attractive manner on Social media...now convince at interview that you can tick those boxes and you will be BAs ideal modern pilot recruit....

[Love_joy]

I'm all for modern thinking Wiggy, but having seen some social media attempts blow up recently that's a path that needs to be walked very very carefully.

Also a sorry state of affairs if skill of the selfie is considered ahead of other ability.

[Time Traveller]

Amen to that smooth. Is a long while since I visited BA, but they always were a nauseating extreme of the HR psychobabble driven selection process, which some might argue, selectively recruits candidates with a rather inflated opinion of themselves!

[bex88]

Wiggy: I hope they are only taking pictures of their meal above 20,000ft

[wiggy]

I'm all for modern thinking Wiggy, but having seen some social media attempts blow up recently that's a path that needs to be walked very very carefully.

Thanks for the heads up but it is really not necessary. Anyone who has been at BA for any length of time is well aware of that fact, cf. Mixed Fleet and Social Media.....

..a sorry state of affairs if skill of the selfie is considered ahead of other ability.

It's not...I'm not suggesting for one minute that BA think selfie skills /media skills etc have primacy over flying skills,..that comment was made slightly in jest in view of recent events, but it might be worth having a view on the subject if brought up at interview. The "real politik" here (and you are smart people, you must know this) is that most big companies with a large pool of applicants look beyond the hand eye stuff these days and rocking up for interview with a mature flight bag and approaching the process with the attitude of "I'm an ace pilot with X000 hours in the book, don't need to prove anything else, just employee me"...might not work out too well.

bex:

I hope they are only taking pictures of their meal above 20,000ft

:ok:

[GS-Alpha]

I am pretty out of touch with the current BA application process, but they must be doing something right because I have been very impressed with the many DEPs I have flown with on the 747. Two ringers often seem to think they are viewed as inferior, but whenever I have one on my flight, I tend to think the exact opposite.

[cessnapete]

https://www.pprune.org/members/95137-cessnapete-albums-virgin-meal-picture1057-fb6a6527-c277-42ce-9f7d-46e8ee808c1b.jpeg

Wiggy.

Re Flight Deck selfies.This would be good recruitment PR.
A mates afternoon tea, crew meal on his first route sector with VS after 16 years of RAF crew food!!!

His favourite Tristar meal, Chicken Tikka Lasagna!

[Boeing 7E7]

Are you sure that’s s crew meal? A left over from Upper Class, I suspect.

[cessnapete]

Correct, but often gets the left over Upper Class. Still better than an Ascot tray!!

[overstress]

Is a long while since I visited BA, but they always were a nauseating extreme of the HR psychobabble driven selection process, which some might argue, selectively recruits candidates with a rather inflated opinion of themselves!
Lovely insult to approx 4000 commercial pilots! What's your beef?

Heard a figure of approx 60 sim assessments to be done asap, that was from one of the assessors.

[Doug E Style]

When you keep seeing pilots well known to have inferior skills getting hired by BA, it does turn your world a bit sour.

Interesting. Who are these pilots “well known to have inferior skills” of whom you speak? Please enlighten us.

[Guynemer]

Hi guys,

Everyone kind enough to share information about the tests used for the ongoing BA Direct Entry day 1 assessment?

On top of the verbal and numerical tests, is there only one capacity test or 2?
I read some confusion on the latestpilotjobs website about that.

As far as I understand there should be only the multitask test (with the TCAS, systems and RODs...).

Anyone to confirm that there is none of the tests previously used which involved a joystick (FD, shape test, FD + 2 things)?

In advance, thanks for your light!

[Snapper5]

It’s a pathetic process ! I did manage to get a 787 offer today from doing selection around a year ago though which I rejected so hopefully some one will get lucky . It should be just a straightforward interview to see if the blokes or gals interviewing you can put up with you for 12 hours . The current interview doesn’t say much about the person other than that they can rehearse selected answers like a monkey

[Nil further]

Two of the most dangerous people I ever worked with were hired by BA , one in particular stands out as an avid self promoter with no discernible flying or CRM skills , joined at the right time after the orange machine got rid .

Got a LGW command on the bus very very quickly. .....


Guess I’m just not good enough and bitter !

Thing is though , these clowns exist in every airline , BA is just the same as everywhere else in that respect .

[Buter]

Lovely insult to approx 4000 commercial pilots! What's your beef?

Heard a figure of approx 60 sim assessments to be done asap, that was from one of the assessors.

Nah, he’s right, dude.

I’m pretty f’ing awesome.

Buter

[student88]

I think we need some lemons to sweeten up this thread a little bit.

[Smooth Airperator]

Look. Let's not get our nickers in a twist here. Good and bad pilots in every airline. On my assessment day there were definitely some very bright and modest chaps who deserved the opportunity and got the job and they are the vast (75%+) majority. Do consider that when a right plonker no longer serenades us with his presence within the work environment, it gets noticed. As BA is within the top third of employers (in number terms) that's where we'll naturally see a lot of plonkers go.

This is pure fact and not anecdotal, I do know at least one pilot in the hold pool who claimed he flew 700 hours in 2015 on a part time contract whilst he's colleagues on a full time contract managed only 550. Now, if the BA interview went something like this... "I see you flew 700 hours in the year 2015, flying only 8 months of the year, tell me how you coped with being so tired?" ....The little weed would've been discovered! But instead BA have focused on his academic strengths and ability to talk about himself in one postive light after another and came to be impressed by him.

The beef some of us here have is that BA seems not interested in hiring pilots who can prove they know the job. What has worked for us and served us well for getting other jobs doesnt work at BA. BA are fixated on a set of personality and profile traits they believe they can siphon out using a recruitment process that makes some exceptionally talented people seem like they're worthless.

The 'It's their train-set' argument can stand til the end of time but that doesn't change the fact that the candidate experience for pilots (CX within the recruitment industry) is poor and many hundreds of candidates who have seen it since 2014 will be completely put off from applying again. Is that what BA wants? BA will not struggle to find candidates for the next recruitment campaign as they can rely on the Flight Schools that are EZY and RYR (and therefore employ more former CTC and Oxford cadets). However, it will always remain an elitest employer in my eyes because of a selection process that requires me to pretend to be 21 yo again with cute answers that took me 3 months to memorise. Anyway that's how I and a lot of us, rightly or wrongly, feel.

[Enzo999]

In defence of the BA process, they receive thousands of applications every time they open recruitment, with only a relatively small number of positions available. There has to be some kind of definitive way to select people. They can’t go around rejecting thousands of qualified pilots purley on the basis they did not like the way they look or their jokes weren’t up to scratch.

The process is clearly not perfect and no doubt some odd people do pass, it’s obviously not an accurate measure of ones piloting ability (sim check excluded) but it’s fair, free of nepotism, impartial and equal. Everyone who applies has the same chances of being offered a job and in my opinion that’s preferable to the “my mate Dave says he’s a good egg” school of recruitment.

For some smaller Airlines recruiting based purley on personality might work but for a company the size of BA that’s simply not practical or even legal. There has to be a process and you either jump through the hoops or don’t bother, if you fail try again or don’t bother, it’s up to you but there is no point in complaining about how unfair it is or slagging off the people who did pass.

Also it’s not that hard to pass, all they are asking is that you are numerate, literate and able to cope with a relatively simply non technical interview, they are hardly asking you to prove string theory or cure cancer.

[Jumbo2]

Also adding to Enzo999 post. From the outside the selection process might look unfit for purpose and not providing the personalities one might want. However from the inside, comparing the different personalities encountered within the airline to those encountered within former airlines, the band of personalities seems to be much narrower with less extreme characters then experienced in those former airlines.

That does mean that unfortunately some good pilots don't make it through the selection process but I would argue that the overall selection process works. Also looking at the amount of pilots who end up failing their training after being selected there seems to be a fair argument to keep on selecting on personalities rather then piloting/learning ability, in the end of the day, apart from the FPP's, all going trough the selection have a pilot licence and should know how to fly airplanes, trying to change a personality on the other hand....

[hunterboy]

I would echo the above posters views. The vast majority of pilots I fly with seem stable and down to earth normal individuals. Ina company with over 4000 pilots, you will always get the odd outlier. Normally, it’s me.....:)

[EMB-145LR]

BA is an entirely process and policy driven airline. If you struggle to accept that during the selection process, then you will be miserable when you join. Everything has a written policy and process attached to it. It can sometimes feel like there is no place for pragmatism over at Waterside. But you quickly come to realise that as an individual on a one to one basis the company work with you personally, but in general you are a number, part of a wider work group and we are all channeled into process driven policies such as Absence Monitoring and sick day handling, Grievances, leave and holiday etc. Everything has a process and policy and very little of it is personal. The same applies to our recruitment. It’s not warm and fuzzy, it doesn’t recognise if you’re a ‘good sort’, but it is fair and I would say judging by the vast majority of the colleagues I meet, it works.

[Enzo999]

It’s a pathetic process ! I did manage to get a 787 offer today from doing selection around a year ago though which I rejected so hopefully some one will get lucky . It should be just a straightforward interview to see if the blokes or gals interviewing you can put up with you for 12 hours . The current interview doesn’t say much about the person other than that they can rehearse selected answers like a monkey

Your quote from September 5th 2017!

“BA has never appealed to me , I have not tried to get in and probably won't .“

It’s stuff like this Snapper that makes me mistrust most of what you say. Added to the fact BA were not running assements a year ago, you are either lying now or back then.

[3Greens]

Ha ha busted.

[Icanseeclearly]

Not only that Enzo but “today”of the post was a Sunday.....

Now I know we need pilots but recruiters working on a Sunday???? That would be something..

Me smells cow dung

[SinBin]

The bigger the statement the bigger the lie!

[angelo26]

Hi all,

Any chance BA openinig DEP for LH in the near future?

Regards

Angelo26

[wiggy]

I haven't heard anything on that subject recently and TBH looking at some postings made in another place I think the people in manpower planning are task saturated trying to work out how to cover this spring and summer's short haul program....

[angelo26]

Thanks for your reply Wiggy,
What about DEP on SH ?

Regards

Angelo26

[Right Engine]

DEP to long haul is happening already.

[wiggy]

DEP to long haul is happening already.

Yep, there are currently DEPs going throug Long Haul training, but AFAIK they are the result of the last round of recruiting.

I assumed (yes I know) that the question was when/are BA indulging in another round of advertising/recruiting with view to another tranche..AFAIK they are not at the moment but standing by to be corrected.

[Doug E Style]

Thanks for your reply Wiggy,
What about DEP on SH ?

Regards

Angelo26

Can you start tomorrow?

[angelo26]

Can you start tomorrow?

I'd love to

regards

Angelo26

[angelo26]

Yep, there are currently DEPs going throug Long Haul training, but AFAIK they are the result of the last round of recruiting.

I assumed (yes I know) that the question was when/are BA indulging in another round of advertising/recruiting with view to another tranche..AFAIK they are not at the moment but standing by to be corrected.

Yes, the question was if BA is going to open anytime soon another round of recruitment.

Regards and thank you all

Angelo26

[cessnapete]

A BA pilot I met yesterday said the word was, BA short of 100 crews (not pilots) for the planned Summer schedules. Said that was just SH, but sounds a bit excessive??

[RexBanner]

Rumour is going round that we’re short of 300-400 pilots. I would personally suspect we’re short of more than 50 in the RHS Airbus, especially once you factor in Gatwick.

[wiggy]

A BA pilot I met yesterday said the word was, BA short of 100 crews (not pilots) for the planned Summer schedules. Said that was just SH, but sounds a bit excessive??

Various numbers, sometimes into three figures, of various variables are now being mentioned elsewhere accompanied by pleas for people to pick up extra work ..whatever the metric (pilots, crews or pilot days) it does seems short haul are going to be significantly short of bods over the next few months....

[no sponsor]

Won’t that mean we just get 9 Qatar 320s in for the summer?

[bex88]

The use of Qatar has to be approved by the CAA. I think it’s only approved under “exceptional circumstances” rather than every time we have a crewing problem. Frustrating indeed but not as concerning as being way over crewed. Head down, plod on and keep your leave because you know if you sell they will get every single penny back from you.

[RexBanner]

Concerning too that there are still mugs who will help the company out, even for the pathetic 1.25x NCP. We as a pilot community need to grow a pair. After years of having our perks and Ts & Cs chipped away at we still help them out in a bind. All that’s going to do is embolden the company to keep coming back for more, shafting us royally and we’ll still bend over and take it. We need to take a long term view here and remind the company who actually holds the keys here so to speak.

[wiggy]

Yep, agreed, ..but since the plea on Yammer came from one of the well respected “good guys” (that appointment was a clever move by the company IMHO) I suspect some will still do the work or sell back leave for the initially offered rate, despite pleas not to do so....because “we can’t drop XX in it......”...

[SinBin]

One has to ask what NS has been doing over the last few years for it to get that bad?! PS Enjoying my leave!

[RexBanner]

SH had been gunning for NS for a while so I hear. Rank incompetence or so I’m led to believe.

[RHINO]

bex 88 said ..The use of Qatar has to be approved by the CAA. I think it’s only approved under “exceptional circumstances” rather than every time we have a crewing problem.

bex88 and you think that would be a problem...it will be granted in an instant. BA peeps need to understand it might end up being on other fleets beside the little bus. Where is BALPA on all this...

[Buter]

Can you start tomorrow?

Do you have a pulse...

Lisence...?

Bring on the summer!

30 hours for a week’s leave, boys... 😂

B

[BitMoreRightRudder]

If you have ever sat in an A320 flightdeck, maybe to have your photo taken with the captain, please call BA recruitment directly.

We would also love to hear from people who may have a few widebody aircraft lying around that they aren’t using this summer.

Preferably with engines that won’t shake themselves to bits mid Atlantic.

And bunks.

[RexBanner]

Good luck getting guys to start tomorrow with Procius so amateurishly running the airside pass security referencing. 6 weeks would be ambitious to be frank.

[LlamaFarmer]

Good luck getting guys to start tomorrow with Procius so amateurishly running the airside pass security referencing. 6 weeks would be ambitious to be frank.

A friend who was renewing his, having worked for his current employer (not BA) at the same base for 10 years now took 11 weeks for Procius to sort it out.

His old pass ended up expiring and had to go around on an escorted pass for a few weeks. Amateurish.

[bylgw]

Heli-wings,

Are you willing to share why you turned the offer down?

[Reversethrustset]

The pool isn't quite empty, there's a fair few at my airline who haven't had the call.

[olster]

I agree, Procius are useless.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I agree, Procius are useless.

It baffles me that they still manage to get any work. They must just quote the lowest price at any cost.

I first encountered them many years ago when I was doing my CPL......they were put in charge of sorting references for an airside pass for me to be a baggage handler. Painful!!!! Nearly gave up and went back to being skint!

[Jwscud]

Just for info, around 110 DEPs taken on so far this year, with around 70 going to the Boeing long haul fleets. No info at the moment on how many more planned.

[VinRouge]

Just for info, around 110 DEPs taken on so far this year, with around 70 going to the Boeing long haul fleets. No info at the moment on how many more planned.

DEP recruitment is now open I believe.


https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/direct-entry-pilot---first-officer-2191-heathrow-airport-london/2209/description/

[A320baby]

Is the recruitment process still the same?

[Smooth Airperator]

Well here we go again....


https://i2.wp.com/www.dougmather.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/jumping-through-hoops.gif

[Always Try Reset]

How much is Brexit going to influence working at BA in the future. Looking from the perspective of joining around this time?