BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[wiggy]

I suspect that's a bit optimistic (by about 3-4 weeks).

Last news on yammer from the person responsible for processing all this was results due out (for internal consumption) in November, but they will try for late October publication date if it is possible.

[Mizar]

Well not too long then. Staying optimistic then!

[GOS]

I'm still assuming nobody has heard anything more on this online presentation we were promised back in July?

[thetimesreader84]

Because I have to put a certain number of characters into my reply, this is a long winded way of saying...

...no.

[Hotel Mode]

Flight ops have literally just been presented with the operational plan. The manpower plan is is in its infancy as a result. The training managers literally have no idea what next year holds yet.

The 747 that was going next year now isn't, which may create unexpected demand I guess.

[thetimesreader84]

While that’s all good to know, why am I hearing this stuff on an online rumour network, from someone (with greatest respect) who could be anyone saying anything?

The presentation was supposed to make it easier to answer our questions on things like hold pool time (is it an extra year from our original expiry date, the extra 6 months, what?) the additional interview we have to have before joining (is it just a chat & cv update, or pass / fail interrogation like the initial?) and so on.

Our last contact with BA was July. Before that, May. I’m not expecting hour - by - hour bulletins, but some idea of what to expect and most importantly when might have been nice.

[Northern Monkey]

The only explanation I can think of is that BA do not appreciate the time and effort that people put in to the selection process and the emotional investment involved. Probably because they know that if and when they open up the process again to new applications they will be overwhelmed.

[wiggy]

The only explanation I can think of is that BA do not appreciate the time and effort that people put in to the selection process

Umm, TBH that's pretty unfair on some of the individuals involved at the BA end. I'd guess the likes of the former recruitment manager (pilot) who used to pop up here and many of those involved in the recruitment process, many of them pilots, really do appreciate the time and effort involved.

However (as always) at a company level it's all (and I mean everything) governed by the bean counters and I suspect you are right about the level of future applications.

[Northern Monkey]

Sorry I should have worded my post better. I of course refer to corporate BA and not the individuals involved in selection and especially not the pilot recruiters, many of whom I have flown with and whom I have great respect for - and were it up to them I suspect the comms would be better.

However the evidence remains that there seems to be a lack of communication which does suggest an indifference towards the holdpool coming from somewhere.

[wiggy]

However the evidence remains that there seems to be a lack of communication which does suggest an indifference towards the holdpool coming from somewhere.

No argument with that and it shouldn't be like that.

I don't know how the comms side of the DEP recruitment process is/was established. Given ACs attitude to spending a penny on anything deemed none essential I wonder if the job of communicating with the hold pool has simply slipped through the cracks during some establishment change that happened this year.

[applecrumble]

So, in light of the news at Monarch, do we think that anything will be done to help the Monarch guys in the holdpool at BA? Maybe bring them in a tad earlier to keep them in pay?

[Northern Monkey]

BA’s focus at the moment is very much on getting the remaining FPPs through the door this year. I wouldn’t expect any special favours for the Monarch pilots I’m afraid.

Still no news regarding when or if people from the holdpool will be recruited.

Personally I still believe that given the uptake of part time, the number of retirements which appears to be slightly higher than estimates I’ve seen previously and the new aircraft we have arriving next year, the introduction of JSS etc, I would be surprised if there was no DEP recruitment in 2018.

But that’s based on nothing more than semi-informed speculation.

[Alanrobins01]

It is probably not worth getting peoples hopes up but I wanted to put it out for debate. With Monarch airlines LGW slots now open to a bidding war between easyJet and British Airways as described by the Financial Times, should BA/IAG be awarded slots any time soon, they could need more pilots and whats more, need them fast. I say this only hoping that any of Monarch's rated pilots in the hold pool could be fished out soon!

[wiggy]

Whose aircraft are they going to fly?

[Alanrobins01]

Hi wiggy. I would presume they would lease aircraft, just like Monarch's aircraft were leased. They will find a way to get aircraft otherwise why would they be bidding for slots? I am in no doubt that BA/IAG want to take the slots to stop not only further easyJet but also further Norwegian expansion from LGW.

[wiggy]

Interesting thoughts...obviously having got the slots BA have to use them...Given this all kicked off a few days back I've not heard any rumours....wonder if anyone else has any thoughts?

[Alanrobins01]

I should add that it was none other than media reports to get my mind speculating and I don't want to come across as insensitive given that these slots are only available given the sad situation at Monarch but hope that all those ZB pilots could come in useful at BA.

[tubby linton]

It was common gossip last year that BA senior management wanted to see Monarch gone as the customer base was broadly similar. I am therefore surprised that BA hasn’t jumped on Monarch’s demise to increase their share at Gatwick. They are the junior partner to Easy at Gatwick, perhaps they have already admitted defeat to the Orange tide.

[GOS]

I see the BAFPP has reopened... not feeling particularly optimistic right now.

[Fostex]

This is a fully self-funded programme, for further details about the potential costs involved please visit - www.L3AirlineAcademy/careerprograms/britishairways

[FACoff]

I see the BAFPP has reopened... not feeling particularly optimistic right now.

Commencing training in 2018. Surely we will either have jobs or will have sunk and been consumed by bottom feeders well before this intake even get near to the line.

Clearly they're anticipating the need for further recruitment and with no other FPPs arriving after the planned courses in early 2018, maybe this could even be a positive sign for us (however small)?

[GOS]

If they commence training in 2018 they’ll be out of the sausage factory at the end of 2019. Around the time some of us were expecting to be perhaps offered a start date. As it is there’s a huge backlog of BAFPP who have had their training pushed back so I’m struggling to see this as a good sign personally.

[average-punter]

Academic requirements lower this time with no requirement for a-levels and it seems the loan underwriting element has vanished.

[Fostex]

Surely those two facts aren't in anyway linked?!:ugh:

[PressTheTit]

Don’t anyone in the Holdpool dare to suggest they may be willing to self fund a type rating to put them ahead of the L3 tide. You’d be undermining your future BA colleagues!

[thetimesreader84]

Does this mean that the bid results are in, at a management level at least?

[Northern Monkey]

I think this cadet scheme is evidently being run with a 2019 intake in mind, so how much the results for 2018 are relevant is debatable (perhaps with the exception of the number of part time bids received).

As much as the headline may be depressing for hold poolers, lets not forget that BA have pretty much always had some sort of cadet scheme so nothing much is changing in that respect.

[Tay Cough]

It isn't a cadet scheme. It's a self-sponsored scheme with the possibility of a BA job at the end.

[bex88]

I doubt the company will give a hoot how many sign up for it because if they have too many it will not cost them anything. It's in their interest to have too many really. A continual supply of cheap labour, no cost to the company and profit for the FTO. Everyone's a winner.......except for the trainee.

[FoxChaRomeo]

For what it's worth, that link is no longer valid, and I can find no reference on the L3 website to a live BA scheme of any description...

[wiggy]

If it is a L3 link or lack thereof that is causing doubts then there's another one here that goes to the BA "jobs" site rather than L3 or whatever they are these days.... :

https://jobs.ba.com/jobs/vacancy/british-airways-cadet-programme-1690-heathrow-airport-london/1708/description/

Given discussion elsewhere there is an assumption it is definitely happening, but TBF I've just taken the plunge and checked and there's no mention of it on the appropriate section of Yammer.....then again it is Yammer....:ooh:

[Tay Cough]

Hi wiggy. I would presume they would lease aircraft, just like Monarch's aircraft were leased. They will find a way to get aircraft otherwise why would they be bidding for slots? I am in no doubt that BA/IAG want to take the slots to stop not only further easyJet but also further Norwegian expansion from LGW.

Why would BA need to lease aircraft? I doubt it could get hold of all the Monarch slots but it could get hold of a dozen longhaul 777 hulls very quickly if required to fill the ones it wanted. :oh:

[eckhard]

there is an assumption it is definitely happening

Spoke with NS yesterday and it is definitely happening. Apparently AC is desperately keen to enable "disadvantaged" kids to have a chance, so my understanding is that here will be a form of means-tested bonded sponsorship.

[wiggy]

Thanks eckhard..and it just so happens this has just been officially announced on the company Yammer thingy by LS with the link I posted an hour or so ago attached..so that should resolve any lingering doubts about whether this was official or a spoof or not....( it was either check that darned site again or wash the car....).

I see they are still labelling a "Cadet" program, it's a shame about the funding, hope some form of sponsorship can be found....

[eckhard]

I would definitely rather wash the car!

[FACoff]

Latest update this morning. Sounds like we'll have a better idea in a week or two, fingers crossed.

[ETOPS]

I'm given to understand that BA will extend applicants in the pool for another year.

Is that true? Can any hold poolers confirm it?

[FACoff]

ETOPS - yes, but whether this is in addition to the extra 6 months they gave us previously is still a mystery.

[wiggy]

While I'm here - I haven't seen the bid results, I really have no idea how things are going to end up for those of you in the pool, I am not trying to send a coded signal, but given the emphasis on the "new" L3 scheme I think we can see BA's long term strategy...

So...personally I'd like to apologise for the way you have been kept floating in the pool.. I don't think the individuals doing the comms with you at BA were at fault, I think they have become victims of the constant flux in planning (both airframe and financial) as much as you have.. but I don't think it should have been managed the way it has been, and I know many of my colleagues are of similar sentiment...

And above all I hope at least some of you get some good news in the near future..

[fr666]

I'm given to understand that BA will extend applicants in the pool for another year.

Is that true? Can any hold poolers confirm it?

I have been extended until November 2018. Or do you mean beyond this?

[basiljet]

Thanks for the kind words wiggy I for one certantly appreciate it. At least they have kept us in the pool which is the least they can do considering the amount of effort they demand we put in for the interviews. I'll be hoping for some better news before the end of the year.

[Dracarys]

As wiggy says, BA’s strategy is becoming clearer. The preference for cadets seems to be driven by the notion that they are “cheaper”.

However, and I must stress that it’s only my personal opinion, I think there will be opportunities for DEPs in 2018. The reason is that the last of the FPP graduates will be joining the ranks fairly soon, but the new cadetship will not start yielding line-ready pilots until (possibly) summer / autumn of 2019 at the earliest. And I really doubt L3’s whitetail candidates will be able to exclusively satisfy BA’s demand for pilots next year without the training department going into overdrive.

[reeko]

Dracarys,

When you say you’re hopeful for DEP next year do you mean for those in the pool or new applications?

[Northern Monkey]

I very much doubt BA will advertise for DEP applications anytime soon with so many people in the hold pool at the moment. That is, not unless they suddenly become worried they may exhaust the hold pool supply which seems unlikely.

Any DEP recruitment in 2018 will almost certainly be from the hold pool I would have thought.

[reeko]

I am of the same opinion

[Mizar]

Bid results out yet?

[wiggy]

They were published earlier today but I must admit that as yet I haven't looked at them in any great detail.

[GS-Alpha]

Where have they been published wiggy? I cannot see them on yammer. Are you sure you are not looking at last year's results? There seems to have been a little confusion on yammer with that recently.

[Northern Monkey]

Think we’re still a few weeks away from the results. Someone dragged up last years results today and it made it look like this years results had been released. They haven’t.

[wiggy]

Oh :mad:, that is quite possibly what I saw earlier in passing. Apologies for the false alarm..as for yammer :p

[Mizar]

Well disappointing news then. Keeping on waiting and hoping for a better one. Cheers.

[GS-Alpha]

2018 PRIAM bid results are now out. I have no idea how it effects recruitment, although there do seem to be a lot of new short haul commands from seats which presumably need replacing with new entrant FOs. I think there are a fair few cadets waiting to come in although again, I don't know numbers.

[RexBanner]

As I have a vested interest (and I'm bored on a domestic nightstop with it teeming down outside) I've had a quick skim over the results directly affecting my status and consequently pilot recruitment. My count shows circa 100 Heathrow Airbus F/O's (including the LCY Fleet) leaving the RHS off to either Long Haul or taking their Command in 2018. This does not include Gatwick F/O's; of which there are also at least 20 or so. So I would hazard a guess of circa 120 F/O's requiring replacement, before you get into the argument of appropriate crewing levels.

Part time will also come into play but, just at a quick glance, I haven't seen all that much aspirational part time being granted. Right to request will push the figures up but obviously we're not party to those figures.

Interestingly, there have been a significant number of Freeze Waivers this year. If the recruitment policy now going forward is to only recruit low hours cadets from CTC (L3) and the rest then that trend will only continue. A glimmer of hope for those of us waiting to escape Short Haul.

[Mizar]

Well Rex, correct me if I am wrong but I guess we should take that as good news. Something seems to be moving creating a vacuum to be replenished with new workforce.

[FoxChaRomeo]

60-odd FPP guys in the pipeline, and a stated intention for BA to further recruit white-tails directly from CTC. Plus easyJet seemingly being very well crewed in the RHS for summer ‘18, so there’ll likely be a surplus of cadets in the market.

If the training department can cope with the volume of sim sessions and line training sectors these guys will generate, sadly even us 320-rated swimmers have no chance. Non rated guys and gals, I’m afraid I think you’ve got more chance of platting fog.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to be proven wrong in the coming months...

[Northern Monkey]

The other unknown currently is what plans IAG have for the Monarch slots they are reportedly acquiring at LGW.

[Snapper5]

I believe LGW slots will be for Level ? Some good competition for NAS

[WonderBus]

The latest crumour here is that BA will keep them warm for 2 years or so, until LEVEL is able to set up in LGW.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I believe LGW slots will be for Level ? Some good competition for NAS

But bad news for BA pilots, current and future.

[RexBanner]

Not if they're after a long haul command it's not.

In any case long haul low cost is a completely flawed business model. This has been proven time and time again. The 787 hasn’t magically overnight made long haul low cost viable, there’s much bigger factors at play here than -albeit reasonably significant - but ultimately marginal savings in fuel burn.

Level’s sole raison d’etre is to hurt Norwegian’s bottom line and to ultimately quicken the process of their demise at the same time as preventing others from entering the market. I would never regard it as some existential threat.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

In any case long haul low cost is a completely flawed business model. This has been proven time and time again.

If you get the cost base low enough (ie s***e employee T&Cs) and target the correct market, routes etc it just might work. Ezy and FR will be watching with interest. Norwegian and Level are geared up very differently from Laker, People Express etc.

If Level prospers it will place more pressure on legacy contracts like BA offer. £100k a year for an F/O with aspirational fleet moves, pension, sick pay, private healthcare etc at a loco anyone? Any Norwegian 787 pilots care to comment? If Level eventually replace the 777 operation at lgw that’s a lot of BA job opportunities lost for good. And they are about to establish a foothold. If they beat off Norwegian I can’t see them disbanding the whole thing once they have got their teeth into pilot basic pay and other T&Cs in general. It is Alex Cruz’s wet dream to see off the Pay Point Scale and replace it with just the 3 basic F/O/SFO/CPT increments. If you want a Level long haul command on vastly reduced terms and no way back into BA then it’s all yours.

Whatever way it is dressed up this is bad news for BA pilots. I think it is very much an existential threat.

[VinRouge]

Interesting discussion point on LCLH On the Aero society website....

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/in-for-the-low-cost-long-haul/

[RexBanner]

BMRR the real fact is the revenue generated by the premium seats on the beach fleet far outweighs what BA/IAG could earn by sticking a load of Level A330’s onto the same routes and filling them up with cheap fares. The margins are far better (even after crew costs).

IAG aren’t in this for the consumer, there’s no reason why they would give up that section of the market and, in future, make less money operating the same routes in a low cost fashion. Make no mistake Level is all about making Norwegian bleed and getting rid of a permanent threat to their profits and return for shareholders. The only reason it even works is because IAG got some end of line A330’s for a ridiculously low price. Going forward that’s not going to be sustainable.

I get the paranoia but ultimately an airline (or airline group) wants to maximise its profits as much as possible (hence the battle with Norwegian in the first place). I very much doubt IAG are in the business of sacrificing profit just to target and decimate the T’s & C’s of a small portion of its workforce.

[VinRouge]

So, what happens to Level’s workforce once their task is complete?

NOR are doing a lot more than LGW, my understanding is they have a number of AOC applications around the globe, including South America.

In the mean time, quite happy to use and abuse Level for its loss leading seat prices in its attempt to unseat NOR! ;)

[RexBanner]

They will carry on as they are, as a niche operation. It’s not the future. LCLH never has been and never will be. Norwegian can have as many AOC applications as they like, the fact is that their business model depends totally on low oil prices and low interest rates. The moment either or both rise (and oil prices are creeping up slowly) they are dead in the water.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Interestingly, there have been a significant number of Freeze Waivers this year. If the recruitment policy now going forward is to only recruit low hours cadets from CTC (L3) and the rest then that trend will only continue. A glimmer of hope for those of us waiting to escape Short Haul.

Re FW’s - a chunk of them are 767 FO’s who are currently frozen but need a new home next year when the fleet goes hence the waiver. Although I did note some Airbus FO’s also getting FW’s too. I suspect it’s likely to be a blip akin to the uber junior commands in 2016

[RexBanner]

There’s about 50 FW’s off the Airbus. That’s almost 10% of the entire fleet. By contrast there’s only about 14 767 FO’s moving and let’s face it that’s not a real Freeze Waiver anyway as you alluded to. The recruitment team have already admitted that future recruitment - certainly in the near future - will be sourced entirely from cadets (primarily from L3 by the looks of it). They could very easily have filled the long haul slots this year with DEP’s from the pool instead of waiving freezes. They didn’t. That is a big indication that if the training capacity allows it, the trend toward freeze waivers will continue in 2019 and 2020 when they have new Long Haul aircraft arriving and retirements to replace.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Ah ok apologies I hadn’t studied the results that closely. I thought it was a smaller number than that but you’re right, 50 is significant.

As for the 767 waivers, those that have joined in the last few years are still engagement and equipment frozen so although the equipment is going, the engagement means that the company could have chosen to direct rather than grant aspirational bids. So to me it feels like a proper freeze waiver. No idea what the future recruitment plans are but maybe you’re right. Who knows.

[RexBanner]

Haha no worries. There’s not many as sad as me to study it that closely so it’s in your favour ;-)

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Haha well I know the FW’s for those on the 76 have been extremely well received anyway!

The results came out while I was downroute so only glanced over it and noted a few Airbus FW’s in my frantic finger swiping down the pages to find my own bid result. Didn’t realise it was 50 or so.

[GS-Alpha]

Level is not a threat to BA? If the slots get used by Level rather than BA, surely that is already taking work away from BA? IAG will direct the work where they consider the highest profit expansion potential. If they believed LCLH cannot be successful, why would they bother to worry about Norwegian and present some kind of competition? BA did not see the likes of EasyJet as a threat in the early days and look what happened there? They clearly do not want to repeat the same mistake. I personally think there is now a sizeable market for low cost long haul. We are living in a world where people are always looking to do things as cheaply as possible because their employers are not giving them real payrises, and are unlikely to do so for another decade. The timing for previous LCLH was not right, but we are well and truly there now. I know far more people who just want to get from A to B as cheaply as possible, than people who want to pay a couple of hundred pounds more and have a better seat. You are looking at well over a grand saved for a typical family going away on holiday. That is a lot of money for the vast majority of holiday makers.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Rex, I really hope you are right and I’m wrong on this. IAG exists for one reason as far as I can see - allocate expansion opportunities via lowest unit cost and the ability to circumnavigate legacy industrial agreements in the process.

The future is interesting to say the least!

[RexBanner]

GS-Alpha the money to be made on Long Haul is in the Premium Cabins. Economy or Traveller or however you wish to brand the cheap seats is heavily subsidized by the Premium ones. Unit costs cannot be lowered to any significant degree to offset the huge loss in revenue by only selling cheap seats. Not only that but the low cost carriers cannot use the aircraft any more intensively than the legacies unlike short haul.

We know all this but it’s only to reinforce the fact that even when the economic environment (cheap fuel, low interest rates to finance new aircraft) is perfectly set up in theory to enable a LCC long haul operation, Norwegian are still only barely keeping their heads above water. What do you think will happen when another shock happens? (And it always does). I know who I’ll be betting my money on.

IAG are responding because Norwegian are taking revenue away, no doubt. Even if it is at the lower end of the market that’s still revenue that is not going into the coffers. Do you really think they’d sit and do nothing whilst that is going on? Ultimately though there is no way that they are going to cannibalize BA’s operation because the margins in LCC Long Haul are so thin and the profits are so limited.

We heard all the rumours about Vueling being the replacement for BA’s Short Haul operation at Gatwick. Still hasn’t happened. Won’t happen with Level either. I’ll say it again, they started Level because they got a fantastically low price for some end of line A330’s. That’s the only reason it works. And it’s perfect to hurt Norwegian in the short term.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Chaps/chapettes... for the uninitiated, what’s a freeze waiver?

[GS-Alpha]

I agree Rex, the best margins are to be made in premium seats, as long as you can put bums on seats without too many upgrades. I also agree that a return to very high oil prices would put a strain on low cost long haul travel margins. Holiday makers are not so keen on paying for premium seats though. The people buying these low cost seats were never going to buy premium seats from BA, so they are not directly taking revenue from BA. Level is tapping into a completely separate market, however any expansion of Level at LGW uses slots that could have been used by BA. IAG is about diversification without extreme interference with the BA brand, and Level helps to achieve that aim. Veuling did not arrive at LGW, but the threat was used to improve efficiencies there, which then filtered across to short haul at LHR. The same tactic could very easily be utilised against BA long haul, and that is bad for BA pilots whether or not Level survives in the long term. “Guys, we are going to use these new slots to expand Level unless efficiencies are made.” Sound familiar?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

FCR

When you join BA you are given a 5 year “engagement freeze”. BA are not obliged to offer you a move onto another fleet until that initial 5 year period has expired. When you do get a move, say F/O 320 to F/O 777 you then have a 5 year “equipment freeze” applied. You can carry on moving fleets every 5 years if you so wish.

However you can bid to change fleet/go for command etc every year during the month long bidding window (July). BA will offer a “freeze waver” if there is a shortage on a fleet you have bid for that needs filling internally rather than via DEP recruitment.

This year due to various factors a large number of 320 F/Os are being granted moves to long haul fleets inside their initial 5 year freeze.
So clearly there will be a number of 320 vacancies, filled by FPPs and DEPs.

The advice is always “bid for what you want”. Some guys got 320’commands well inside their 5 year engagement freeze as a result. There are always some comedy bids, eg a year 1 cadet pilot bidding for an A380 command - that is streching the maxim somewhat!

[RexBanner]

Important for new joiners to remember that five years is not a reference to calendar years, it refers to training years. You only have to do part of a training year for it to be counted so what sounds like a long time is very often less. Of course then you still have to have the required seniority at the time for your chosen fleet.

[FoxChaRomeo]

There are always some comedy bids, eg a year 1 cadet pilot bidding for an A380 command - that is streching the maxim somewhat!

Thanks for the info. Can’t fault his/her optimism!

So I think what we can take from this is that there will be recruitment, but as I said a page or two back, I’m not sure how many DEPs will get the nod. I refer back to the July holdpool update... ”At the moment based on our current forecasting for 2018 we are not expecting to be able to offer anyone a start date in 2018 from the DEP holdpool.”

And from what you say, freeze waivers from the 320 onto long haul fleets effectively closes the door for our non-rated swimming colleagues.

[RexBanner]

Difficult to say for certain but the indications are that the fact that so many Freeze Waivers are taking place off the Airbus - whilst we know for sure that there are at least as many DEP’s swimming in the pool who meet the LH requirements - means that the numbers have been crunched and it will have been concluded cheaper to get Cadets in on reduced pay for a number of years than it is paying for the one off cost of an extra conversion course.

Of course if the requirements jump to 200-300 a year again (we shall see) then the training capacity will determine the movement off the Airbus and the recruitment of DEP's. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Dave]

No idea of the logic of putting Level in LGW.... why would you (IAG) use your low cost brand (Level) to take business away from your premium brand (BA)?

You end up just competing with yourself and lowering you overall revenues!

Having said that, I can still see it happening! :(

[RexBanner]

There is no logic Dave. It would absolutely trash the yields on those routes as you and I can see. Still people need something to be paranoid about I suppose! If it does happen they won’t be on the same routes as the BA fleet, it’ll be something different, so no threat to 777 jobs just yet.

[VinRouge]

To take out Norwegian then fold the Level operation is the only reason I can think of. Unless the strategic view is LCLH is the ways forwards and you don't want your business to be the next Polaroid. Evolve or die...

To be fair, the typical LCLH user will be very different to the typical business class user, one would expect operators would prefer a jet full of business class, as the highest incline stream, if there were enough users of such a service.

[RexBanner]

There’s undoubtedly less profit to be made in LCLH though VinRouge. You simply cannot get the unit cost down to the same extent that you can in Short Haul. It’s been tried over and over and over again. Norwegian haven’t somehow magically made it profitable, it’s the most advantageous environment there has ever been for LCCLH (Cheap Fuel, record low interest rates) and they are barely keeping their heads above water. Surely that tells its own story?

I am absolutely convinced that BA/IAG are talking up Norwegian as a stick to beat the workforce with. We should 100% call them on it.

[chocolateracer]

BA/IAG has secured the LGW Monarch slots. Standby for mass recruitment.

[GS-Alpha]

Well it seems IAG have won the majority of Monarch’s Gatwick slots.

We are already increasing density down the back on our LGW 777s. Level wouldn’t work at Heathrow, but packing them in tight as you can has a market at Gatwick in my opinion.

IAG claim the customers buying tickets with Level are a completely new customer base. They are therefore not currently in direct competition with BA’s revenue stream other than the fact that expansion of Level is not expansion of BA. But you can say the same thing about all of the other companies within the IAG group.

Incidentally, I too think we should call IAG’s bluff with regards to their attempts to beat us with the threat of other companies taking our work. I thought that way back when they were claiming we needed to take cost cuts in order to fund BMI coming to BA, rather that Veuling or some new IAG entity. BA is definitely a hugely important part of IAG at least in the short to medium term.

[GS-Alpha]

Speculation aside as to where the slots are destined in the longer term, how do we think BA are going to service these new slots? Short haul aircraft, or long haul? Hang on to a couple of 747s and 767s a little while longer perhaps?

[VinRouge]

There’s undoubtedly less profit to be made in LCLH though VinRouge. You simply cannot get the unit cost down to the same extent that you can in Short Haul. It’s been tried over and over and over again. Norwegian haven’t somehow magically made it profitable, it’s the most advantageous environment there has ever been for LCCLH (Cheap Fuel, record low interest rates) and they are barely keeping their heads above water. Surely that tells its own story?

I am absolutely convinced that BA/IAG are talking up Norwegian as a stick to beat the workforce with. We should 100% call them on it.

They also are having to contend with the overheads of establishing an operation at present. That can't be cheap, the profit will come imho once they bed in and learn where increased load factor or prices are tolerable.

Price hikes in fuel will impact the whole industry and result in price hikes, the low cost I expect will be relative to existing traditional long haul carriers. If everyone hikes by 50 quid a fare for increased prices, the traditional airlines will be in just a bad situation. Hedging fuel prices only works in your favour for so long before options expire, so that can only work in the sort to medium term.

The only concern is bankruptcy or someone loss leading, similar to what has happened to NOR SH at BHX I believe. Question is, with 2 billion down, are they now too big to fail?

[RexBanner]

Read about Braniff and Air Europe and then compare to what’s going on at Norwegian. The parallels are staggering. They’re over stretching themselves going for market share ahead of actually establishing profitability. There’s a staggering amount of red ink all over their balance sheet. By their own admission in their latest accounts they only have guaranteed capitalisation for the next three quarters! It isn’t just related to growing the business. I will take any bet you like that they won’t be here in five to ten years time.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Speculation aside as to where the slots are destined in the longer term, how do we think BA are going to service these new slots? Short haul aircraft, or long haul? Hang on to a couple of 747s and 767s a little while longer perhaps?

Don't go giving them any ideas!!!

As far as I know, the last of the 767's have an issue which means they MUST be in their final resting place by 0001 hrs on 1st Jan 2019. Up until that point I guess it's feasible to use the fleet wherever they see fit but the remaining 7 aircraft are all short haul config and not etops. Maybe a stop gap for a few months for some high density short haul perhaps but something more definite must be in the pipeline for slots that valuable. Maybe more work for the triple bearing in mind the FW's onto the fleet.

[Reversethrustset]

Just for clarity, as posted at the top is it BA/IAG who have secured the slots or IAG? The former would assume IAG have secured the slots for BA.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Reports on Reuters et al would suggest it's IAG so I guess any one of the group could benefit from them. I'd imagine the most likely to use them would be BA but you never know with IAG.

[tfly737]

How many slots did Monarch have to sell?

[VinRouge]

Read about Braniff and Air Europe and then compare to what’s going on at Norwegian. The parallels are staggering. They’re over stretching themselves going for market share ahead of actually establishing profitability. There’s a staggering amount of red ink all over their balance sheet. By their own admission in their latest accounts they only have guaranteed capitalisation for the next three quarters! It isn’t just related to growing the business. I will take any bet you like that they won’t be here in five to ten years time.

I bet neither had the pseudo backing of a sovereign wealth fund worth trillions looking for long term investment opportunities on the behalf of their nationals though!

https://www.nbim.no/en/the-fund/

[GS-Alpha]

I read somewhere that Monarch had 18 slot pairs at Gatwick. I cannot remember where I read it because it was a while back, and so I am not sure of its accuracy.

[Snapper5]

It’s ok guys I’m sure Level will snap those up

[chocolateracer]

Couldn’t be further from the truth.

[polepilot]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/british-airways-gatwick-monarch-luton-slots-easyjet-norwegian-a8079261.html%3famp
If this isnt hope for those of us in the pool then nothing will be!

[oleostrutbasher]

Anyone have any idea or indications within BA if this would cause enough of a requirement to reopen DEP applications?

[FoxChaRomeo]

As of last year, there were circa 300 people in the hold pool, and we’ve had our expiration dates extended twice, so I’d say it would be unlikely in the foreseeable future.

[FACoff]

But how many in the pool are 320 rated? And how many of those are still even interested in BA? Was any of this expansion planned when our dates were extended?

I know it's easy (and frankly, less disappointing) to be pessimistic but on the contrary I'd say this is the most positive it's looked in terms of recruitment potential for a good while. 28% unplanned expansion at Gatwick must mean good news for at least a few.

[World Flyer]

Valid point. Many of the people I know in the holdpool have moved on and are no longer interested in BA. Even more with no interest in shorthaul. Does anybody have reliable info about the number of DEP swimmers? I’ve heard as low as 80 and as high as 300.

[wiggy]

Anyone have any idea or indications within BA if this would cause enough of a requirement to reopen DEP applications?

That question was asked of a manager elsewhere earlier today and the answer was that as yet there was no change to the current plans. Of course that could change tomorrow and in any event it's obviously not just a case of backsides on seats, you need the equipment to use the slots.

[bex88]

I think a few things are certain and that is, JSS will mean that the current pilot establishment will be “Optimised” or worked to fatigue and this will mean less pilots are needed. With the plans that probably means FPPs will fill the gaps by pilots leaving the 320 fleet. DEP......search me. Gatwick slots I assume were not accounted for but with 25 NEOs arriving to replace the older 319’s it is not hard to imagine those being sent to Gatwick to slot sit. Where do the pilots come from? Rated DEP one would assume in order to get it up and running quickly whilst maintaining so level of experience. If that does happen the PRIAM result go out the window. Simply put, the slots have to be used, aircraft need to fill them and pilots need to fly them. My two pence which is probably completely wrong as it’s so simple.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Valid point. Many of the people I know in the holdpool have moved on and are no longer interested in BA. Even more with no interest in shorthaul. Does anybody have reliable info about the number of DEP swimmers? I’ve heard as low as 80 and as high as 300.

A friend in the company scoured the relevant Yammer threads and came up with the following numbers. So fairly reliable, based on (I think) a reasonable assumption of success rate in the sim:

446 sim assessments in 2016.
Based on 2 out of 3 success rate, that has ~300 in the pool
~30% of whom are 320 rated, so ~90 rated swimmers.
A handful of whom started with the company in Jan/Feb this year - someone will know the exact number.

As you mentioned, there will be a number who have moved on to VS or the Middle East or elsewhere, or who have stayed put and picked up a command, or who perhaps already have a command and have no interest in joining the short haul fleet in the RHS. Some will be Monarch guys who are now perhaps commited to elsewhere.

How many there are in one of those situations... your guess is as good as mine. Personally, I know four guys who would fit one of those criteria. And to be fair, BA won’t even know until they start making offers.

[CXKA]

Don’t forget there are 777 and 747 rated pilot’s too in the pool.

[Flyer2007]

Quite. Many assume all recruitment if any would be for the A320 only. Answer is, we really don't know. But potentially all Airbus positions could be filled with FPPs/ white tail cadets. If (and a big if) there's a need for longhaul DEPs then these could go to Boeing rated.

Like others have mentioned I know several in the pool who have gone off to the likes of Virgin and Thomson/TUI and seem rather happy with life there.

[World Flyer]

Thanks for the reply FoxChaRomeo. I think your right. Any plan made to call people out of the pool if subject to massive change depending on people accepting or not. Which as you said they’ll only know when they start making the offers. Based solely on people you and I know, it does sound like a sizable chunk have moved on. But, it’s anyone’s guess.

[average-punter]

Not involved in the pool myself so these comments are totally from an observer.

If I were "swimming" I would have every right to be quite annoyed with the situation. The selection process is not trivial and requires a large amount of preparation is required, which, one would assume would lead to a job with BA if successful. I'm glad the holding pool lifeline has been extended but if I were to "expire" I'd expect to be re-imbursed the costs incurred to attend the selection events. In other news I saw a flying pig the other day...

Hope you all get the call :ok:

[FoxChaRomeo]

Quite. Many assume all recruitment if any would be for the A320 only. Answer is, we really don't know. But potentially all Airbus positions could be filled with FPPs/ white tail cadets. If (and a big if) there's a need for longhaul DEPs then these could go to Boeing rated.


The number of freeze waivers granted this year would suggest that the company has been proactive in filling LH vacancies by moving people off the 320 fleet early. That alone suggests to me that there will be limited if any LH DEP recruitment.

And from the hold pool update in January...
The A320 will, as always, be our primary recruiting fleet.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Not involved in the pool myself so these comments are totally from an observer.

If I were "swimming" I would have every right to be quite annoyed with the situation. The selection process is not trivial and requires a large amount of preparation is required, which, one would assume would lead to a job with BA if successful.

I agree. Not an accusation at any individuals but there appears to be a touch of 'institutional arrogance'...

"we are British Airways, so people will wait. We've had a better idea and can save some cash by only employing cadets, but if that doesn't work out, we can still go back to the DEP hold pool cos people still want to work for us"

[average-punter]

Absolutely. I think this time round they may be quite surprised.

[WonderBus]

I bet they won’t be surprised 🙄

[blimey]

You'll be joining at 4100+.

In 2033 you'll be 3100 on present predictions.

SH LHS is about 2400, LH 1550 ish.

Do the maths.

[RexBanner]

Blimey, those figures are assuming an attrition rate of 66 pilots a year. Now that the retirements have gone back to normal I’ve gone up 183 places in 18 months. That’s almost double your figures so somebody isn’t doing the maths correctly.

Your figures would mean a new joiner of the age of 25 would only barely (by a year or so) achieve a long haul command by the end of their 40 years service!

[Rated De]

The demographics of the retirement rate across all western economies is far in excess of any historical reference point; the data simply does not exist.

Given the impact on asset markets, health care provision and even considerations of tax I would treat any prediction of advancement based on any historical metric to be of limited value.

Governments the world over are struggling with an aging workforce they are simply concerned with tax and spend, not service provision. On all western economies measures they all begin a great stagnation for at least a decade commencing now and continuing country after country.

[blimey]

Agreed, Gents, the goalposts do move. But to those who aren't anointed, it's not the end of the world.

[GS-Alpha]

Rex,
Blimey’s figures for seniority are based on the seniority predictor spreadsheet that was created a year or so ago. It takes everyone’s age into account, but assumes retirement at age 65. It also doesn’t take standard attrition due to loss of licence etc. into account. Some years have significantly higher rates of retirement than others, but it only goes up as far as 2033. You cannot just extrapolate figures beyond 2033 to work out seniority in later years in the way you have done, because BA has some very definite age demographic variations at various seniority positions.

[Northern Monkey]

Also worth noting that LH RHS is down to 3540 ish (excluding forced bids off the 767), so the chances are that like most people, after your initial 5 year freeze on the Airbus is over, a Long Haul seat will be available to you.

If you're in your 20's or 30's and you want to have the opportunity to fly long haul at some point it's still a no brainer in my opinion. 5 years on the Airbus at BA or 30 years on the Airbus somewhere else... take your pick. Of course, I totally understand that for some people short haul is their preferred lifestyle choice and thats just as valid a decision on a personal level. It's certainly very difficult (impossible?) to make the argument to leave somewhere like easyJet if your ambition is to remain on short haul long term.

[bex88]

A large number of the “junior jets” are sitting on LH commands and are now in their mid to late 40’s. With part time options I think a good number of these will stick around to 60 if not 65. This is going to effectively stall natural progression. We all have potentially longer careers and some through circumstance have lucked out on pay point 24 with another 15 years or more to go. Each to their own but BA is a long game and a good assumption would be that not much is going to come quickly. Historically RHS LH was 5/7 years. A SH command about 12/15 and a LH over 20. Don’t wish your life away because it will be behind you faster than any of us imagine.

[FoxChaRomeo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but part time options will meant that the seniority required to get on a certain fleet or certain seat will reduce, right?

It's surely a good thing for people lower down the pecking order to have people above them going part time? Rather than working 100% until the day they retire?

Two 50% part time skippers on the 787 for example are essentially taking one spot. Or am I being too simplistic? (Quite possible!:confused:)

[bex88]

I don’t think it will make much difference because those who would go “stuff it” and retire at 55 or 60 are generally now deciding to ease off the gas and continue working but part time. If you were on the top pay scale choosing your work and doing a few trips a month on which you can take your partner or kids why would you retire? People say the pension will be a big driver for retirements but that’s not the noises I hear.

On a positive note though. Gatwick slots, NEO’s arriving this year to replace older 319’s at LHR. IAG have slots which need flying, some aircraft they could keep hold of to slot sit and a pool of pilots. Despite what people say, in the short to medium term it will be a BA gig and maybe Level will have some later but who knows. That has to be the positive driver of recruitment.

[GS-Alpha]

I agree Bex. The PRIAM results just produced are now obsolete. These Gatwick slots could have just changed an awful lot of the strategy and I’d be quietly optimistic if I was in the hold pool at the moment.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

For the sake of those treading water in the hold pool I sincerely hope you’re right and suspect you may well be. On the other hand, the PRIAM results were being sorted around the same time as these slots would have been negotiated. So was this part of the reason for the significant number of FW’s (excluding the required moves off the retiring 767 fleet)?

Who knows.

In any event, the effort required to pass the BA recruitment process is substantial and I really hope the guys and girls waiting for a start date will come off well from the forthcoming LGW expansion. They deserve it after such a long wait!

[GS-Alpha]

At about the time the PRIAM results were being produced, KPMG had lost their case in the courts and were deemed not to have the right to sell Monarch’s slots. They were appealing against the decision, but had not had it reversed yet. The question is do BAs pilot P&P and recruitment plans take the Gatwick slots into account, and based upon the above, I’m suspecting they don’t. After that, it depends whether they can meet the new requirement using just the FPP recruits, and again, I suspect they cannot. I should point out these are all just guesses as I have absolutely zero inside info on the subject.

[MOA]

The latest PRIAM results did not take into account potential LGW slots (and from that I 'assume' recruitment’s needs to date did not either). No news from network planning as to the likely requirement as yet.

That is all...

[bex88]

I don’t think we even know how many mince pie’s we need for Christmas let alone anything else.

[RexBanner]

Alex will probably eat them all that’s why.

[bex88]

Well it would at least be “cost neutral”

[MOA]

Haven’t you heard, there is no Christmas this year. Too expensive and no tangible benefit to shareholders...

[BASHLH]

NS was asked directly on Yammer if the current PRIAM results & expected future recruitment had taken the Gatwick slots into account, & if any changes would occur.... Her answer is bellow.... hopefully some good news for holdpoolers!

‘Yes things will change once the full impact of the slots filters down to us from network planning. There won’t be another PRIAM results published, the changes will be handled via publication of course lists’

[monkey.tennis]

40 slot pairs equals about 6 aircraft (based on each one doing 6 sector days). That will only need 50-60 pilots to operate (if used entirely on SH routes). That’s not going to make much of a dent in a 300 strong hold pool. That number could increase towards 100-120 if used on long haul.

[PressTheTit]

I’d heard earlier this year (probably on here) that 2018 was going to be another bumper year for Recruitment. And that was well before the news of IAG acquiring Monarch’s Gatwick slots. I would have though that if the former were still true + the slot news then the pool would be getting drained next year? A wholely simplistic view I’m sure, please enlighten me as to what’s changed.

[VJW]

Whitetails?

Was the use of them in the plans last year?

[PressTheTit]

“If you haven’t already seen, we launched a cadet recruitment programme this week. The cadets won’t start in the business until late 2019, early 2020. We have always managed the two entry streams separately and will continue to do so.”

[VJW]

Yes well done you’ve answered your question by pasting their most recent email in October to us.

You asked what’s changed- it’s that!

July’s email said, ‘Further to our update in May. At the moment based on our current forecasting for 2018 we are not expecting to be able to offer anyone a start date in 2018 from the DEP holdpool.’ Is that a bumper year?

Why might these newly acquired slots not allow the BA pool to be drained? Possibly because now they will fill the seats they need with FPP cadet and when they’re ready white tail cadets.

[PressTheTit]

You’re right, I’d forgotten about that small detail. Not being TR I guess I can forget about a slot if there are now 300 in the pool. Best of luck to you all.

[Retrojet]

Dont despair yet guys and girls! We don’t know what’s going to happen yet.....just read on other forums....

“I have on good authority that senior members of BA staff are currently on a shopping trip for more Boeing airframes, and they don't want to repeat picking up some more dogs like the 2nd hand Gatter A320's.”

.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1476013-ba-fleet-new-aircraft-arrivals-retirements-master-tracker-124.

So there is still hope for Airbus and Boeing and even nonTRd guys and girls....all we can do is watch this space....

[FlipFlapFlop]

Good news for everyone else; one fewer in the pool!



That will be two then. I am staying put as well. Moved to LHS earlier this year and could not contemplate going to the bottom of the BA RHS seniority list.

[chocolateracer]

40 slot pairs equals about 6 aircraft (based on each one doing 6 sector days). That will only need 50-60 pilots to operate (if used entirely on SH routes). That’s not going to make much of a dent in a 300 strong hold pool. That number could increase towards 100-120 if used on long haul.

PnP told me that there are less than 200 in the hold pool, about 180 odd.

[VJW]

Waiting to be plucked out of Easy DEC holdpool. One less going to BA

[average-punter]

Yup. They will be surprised.

[Retrojet]

IAG just announced/reconfirmed....no slots for LEVEL, slots will be used for international expansion for BA....(article on flight global)

[Retrojet]

According to a forum on flyertalk....BA are looking for second hand Boeing's. So don't despair yet...it's sounding positive for airbus and Boeing TRd guys and girls.

[VinRouge]

. He adds that BA will be adding new international routes from Gatwick as a result of the purchase.

BA is the second-biggest carrier at Gatwick and recent expansion has included new long-haul destinations such as Oakland and Fort Lauderdale, both of which put it in competition with Norwegian. Next summer, BA will add Gatwick flights to Las Vegas and Toronto.

IAG agreed to buy Monarch's slots late last month for an undisclosed sum following a UK High Court ruling that administrators KPMG could sell them.

Looks relatively promising....

[thetimesreader84]

In the nicest possible way, I’ve been hearing “good news”, “looking good”, “cautiously optimistic” since I stumbled into the pool 14 odd months ago, and it’s wearing a bit thin.

Yes, I agree there’s an expansion into LGW planned, which will require a number of new pilots. I’m expecting those pilots to come from CTC “White Tail”, and an email to those of us in the pool setting out exactly why it’s good news for us all, and have another 18 month extension, starting from some indeterminate point.

[Woodmulch]

Here’s a thought guys/gals....

So doesn’t anyone think that the recent round of recruitment that BA done to acquire this latest batch of pilots for its hols pool only to discard and recruit “White Tails” instead feel like that is blatant discrimination.

I reckon it could come under the Equality Act 2010. Would it not be very hard for BA to justify advertising vacancies and still filling those vacancies with let’s call it what it is, the cheaper option i.e. White Tails which not always I admit but basically means age discrimination as I would argue most in the hold pool are older than the White Tails with more experience and more expensive. Hence not now the required option under Mr Cruz

The guidance notes for employers on ACAS is interesting reading if anyone isn’t familiar and it does state that if there is a discriminatory effect with the sole aim of reducing costs it is likely to be unlawful.

Wasn’t that the reason stated on a yammer post somewhere in the forums of BA?

I see there are a few candidates already mentioning that should they even get and offer now they would likely turn it down. Is no one else sitting in this hold pool with a bad taste in their mouth having probably had a number of attempts to pass the selection over the years at no small cost every time to finally have been successful and placed into a hold pool only to be passed over by the younger less experienced cheaper option!

I doubt anyone dare take them to court for fear it would immediately rule them out of the privaledge to work for them.

[polepilot]

I personally am with times reader on this one, however they have never extended the pool beyond 18 months before as far as I am aware. With the need for more pilots with the gatwick slots the question is can the training department cope with training so many white tail cadets short notice?

[FoxChaRomeo]

The question is can the training department cope with training so many white tail cadets short notice?

This is key... if they can, then no one in the pool has a hope. The bean counters have decreed.

If they can’t, then some rated guys/gal floating near the top of the pool may be in with a chance.

[GS-Alpha]

2017 was always going to be a year of little or no recruitment. This was known and talked about on here from at least the middle of 2016. Recruitment was predicted to pickup again in 2018 but again, it has been known for quite some time that there are a fair number of FPP pilots at the front of the queue. It is also known that BA’s training department struggled with the requirement before this lull, and so they were highly likely to try to avoid a similar scenario. So recruitment was always unlikely to be of such a high volume as last time around.

I appreciate it is frustrating waiting for your recruitment date to come along, but I personally think these Gatwick slots are the first real opportunity for DEP holdpool recruitment in well over a year. It will not empty the entire pool for sure, but I predict some of you will be getting a call fairly soon after the plan for the slots is finalised. Determining who is needed, when and where, is a complex task because the PRIAM result just released is likely now largely obsolete, and it will have to be rerun internally before the precise nature of extra recruitment can be determined. That cannot happen until they have established what they are doing with the slots, which is determined by where they can source planes etc.. It took several months to get a result last time around, and I suspect getting their ducks in a row in preparation to run it this time will be even more complex. I would expect several months yet, and the actual document will unlikely be made public this time, other than perhaps approximate seniorities for various positions, and maybe numbers of new pilots required. These extra slots were not even a slight possibility a couple of months back. It is bound to take a little time to determine the best course of action.

Will some of you turn the offer down when it comes? Of course you will, because a lot changes in eighteen months.

[GS-Alpha]

As for whitetails; do any of you seriously think they will even be out of flight school in 2018?

[FoxChaRomeo]

2017 was always going to be a year of little or no recruitment. This was known and talked about on here from at least the middle of 2016.

If this was the case, why did short haul recruitment open in July 2016??
What changed is that someone had a bright idea to recruit whitetails directly from CTC, in addition to the FPP cadets, as a cost saving exercise.

As for whitetails; do any of you seriously think they will even be out of flight school in 2018?

As I understand it, white tails are being recruited from CTC both after their flying training (IR) phase, and after the groundschool phase. So there will be some available almost immediately, as well as more in the pipeline. With easyJet confident that they have sufficient FOs in place for Summer ‘18, there is no shortage.

[GS-Alpha]

I didn’t realise any whitetails were being recruited after flying phase. If that is the case then I guess they will be recruited first, but only if the airbus training department can cope. The strain may be too much for recruitment to be purely via short haul. Time will tell, but my point is this is the biggest potential opportunity for well over a year in my opinion.

[Retrojet]

Fingers crossed... all we can do is wait a bit longer

[polepilot]

Are BA definitely taking white tail cadets straight from finishing CTC and has this been confirmed? Also putting the Gatwick slots to one side, with the PRIAM results am i right in saying that DEP guys/girls had absolutely no chance in 2018?

[Mizar]

Last BA update was talking about possible 2019/2020 for this new cadets to be ready so I think in the short term they only have the fpp cadets that are ready to start in the coming months and I heard, possibly on here that the last bunch of them is going to the line fairly soon

[newb1112]

There is some slight confusion about white tail cadets.

There are approx 60 FPPs waiting, the first few are on TR courses now.

Mid course interviews for CTC self funded cadets took place earlier this year and approx 40 (so I heard) will be recruited with the last of the FPP cadets.

There is also the new “Cadet scheme” where anyone can come fly for BA, as long as you can find £115k under the sofa - these “cadets” are the ones expected to be ready 2019/2020.

[Retrojet]

I have it on good authority from a senior manager at LGW that all the additional slots will be operated by wet leased aircraft this summer. Therefore, I would expect any recruitment to be for 2018.

Wet leases...that’s not good news....unless it’s just for a few months for BA to acquire aircraft and recruit us lot! I was wondering with most of us on a 3 months notice period, plus BA induction/sims etc....they were going to have be pretty quick at calling us...ready for summer schedule.

[binsleepen]

Hi all,

I am a bit of a glass half full kind of a guy so this is my personal take on things.

Cadets, be they FPP or whitetail can go only go onto short haul. They also need about 40 training sectors to get to line check as opposed to about 10 for DEPs. Therefore the ratio of cadets to DEPs has huge effect on the ability of the training department to get pilots onto the line, and consequently how quickly senior A320 FOs can be allowed off short haul and into training for their desired long haul slots.

40 slot pairs may only support 10 short haul aircraft at one end of the spectrum but 40 long haul aircraft at the other. Each long haul aircraft probably requires about 7 Captains and 10 FOs depending on the destinations. BA clearly want to compete with Norwegian so I expect a good percentage of the slots to be long haul ones.

Clearly there are issues such as magicing up aircraft to fill those slots and training the crews in a short period to fill possibly 15 long haul and 6 short haul aircraft. I suspect that a rough figure of 300 pilots will be needed.

All in my opinion. All the best to those in the pool.

[Northern Monkey]

I have it on good authority from a senior manager at LGW that all the additional slots will be operated by wet leased aircraft this summer. Therefore, I would expect any recruitment to be for 2018.

I assume you mean 2019 if this coming summer (2018) the plan is to wet lease?

I'm sure it has occurred to the recruitment team at BA that there is a looming requirement for more pilots as a result of the Monarch slots / increased retirements / increased part time / JSS etc. At the same time they will be aware that by allowing the hold pool to expire there will be a costly requirement to re-run the entire selection process. I don't believe that outcome is in BA's interests as they would lose access to the immediate supply of quality people that the hold pool was intended to supply. As others have pointed out, relying entirely on cadets risks being unable to deliver the necessary training programme.

Even if recruitment of DEP's is not imminent, some sort of fudge to allow the current hold poolers access to jobs beyond their existing expiry dates looks likely to me.

[3Greens]

BA can’t plan for what remains of Wednesday. I think you underestimate the l evels of ineptitude within middle management in BA. Having served 18years, I will guarantee that at some point it will dawn on them that these new slots require shed loads of drivers; and the flood gates will open again. That coupled with the new rostering system to be introduced in June, which already looks like being a crock of sh1t3, will lead a drive for more pilots.

[Smooth Airperator]

I would suggest that any experienced pilot applying for a BA job in the future not bother until BA have signed and delivered to you a note that promises your employment ahead of any cadet. Otherwise you're wasting your time, effort and money on what is essentially a recruitment methodology that is as worse as RYRs (remember the outrage when they charged €250? well attending BA assessment days can cost some people £2,000 a pop if they're travelling from the Sandpit or Far East over 2 or 3 separate days).

[GS-Alpha]

Wet leases may be an option being considered for the short term, but I do not believe for one moment that a final decision has actually been made yet. BA just do not work that fast.

[blimey]

BA can’t plan for what remains of Wednesday. I think you underestimate the levels of ineptitude within middle management in BA.

You've brightened my evening. :)

[wiggy]

Must admit that post made me giggle as well... many a true word, or perhaps “if Carlsberg did posts describing the workings of BA”.....

Perhaps I should explain to our onlookers that IMHO a lot of this confusion as to what day of the week it is /which plan are we on today is of course not helped the increasing use of yammer as an official comms tool...

[average-punter]

I would suggest that any experienced pilot applying for a BA job in the future not bother until BA have signed and delivered to you a note that promises your employment ahead of any cadet. Otherwise you're wasting your time, effort and money on what is essentially a recruitment methodology that is as worse as RYRs (remember the outrage when they charged €250? well attending BA assessment days can cost some people £2,000 a pop if they're travelling from the Sandpit or Far East over 2 or 3 separate days).

A very sensible piece of advice. I still maintain that if I were in the hold pool and "expired" I'd want my expenses to be reimbursed.

[wiggy]

if I were in the hold pool and "expired" I'd want my expenses to be reimbursed.

I understand the sentiment but you are wildly optimistic.

This is the airline that has been trying very hard to terminate it’s policy of reimbursing employes for expenses incurred if they use an AME external to BA for their Class 1’s and it is also the operator which (unlike some others) won’t fork out to provide any form of respiratory protection for employees currently slipping in DEL.

Good luck claiming for expenses as a non employee.

[average-punter]

Oh yes I know there is zero chance of that happening but it certainly would be th decent thing to do. As someone alluded too earlier it costs a small fortune for some candidates

[tubby linton]

Wet leases may be an option being considered for the short term, but I do not believe for one moment that a final decision has actually been made yet. BA just do not work that fast.

I would find wet-leases probably using aircraft from a pariah state of the Middle East particularly galling knowing that a long established UK airline was put out of business partly because senior IAG management wanted them gone.

[wiggy]

Average-p

it certainly would be th decent thing to do.

Yes it would, but sadly you (and others) now have another insight into the “BA way”.

I’d be interested if any other airlines have been known to reimburse expenses in similar circumstances.

[thetimesreader84]

I don’t have the emails to hand (given that I went through selection a while ago, and lots happened since then), but I remember it stating explicitly that BA wouldn’t reimburse any costs incurred by candidates attending waterside.

[G SXTY]

My most recent interview where expenses were reimbursed was in 1990.

Since then, off the top of my head, Ive had at least 13 job interviews, and no-one - in any industry - has offered to pay for expenses. (The only exception was airlines in the sandpit, who provided an air ticket and hotac for the interview).

It's not just BA that won't pay, it's the modern world.

[thetimesreader84]

I would find wet-leases probably using aircraft from a pariah state of the Middle East particularly galling...

Agreed. Especially as it looks like the whole thing was a “you scratch my back...” deal between BA, CAA and XXX airlines.

[Retrojet]

Anyone else read the update email...Anyone had a phone call yet? Airbus...LHR...LGW.....other fleet?

[JB007]

Could be short notice for ‘quality’ wet-leased available aircraft/crews - especially given ACMI recruitment and its short-term contract nature!

Would BA use Latvian/Lithuanian registered aircraft?!?

[JW411]

Why should they not?

[VJW]

Heard through a mate near the top of the pool- 4 x B747 offers gone out today. Whoopee

[Saab0409]

Got the update email as well, limited number of offers to be made for starting date in march 2018. That's at least something positive! From no DEP in 2018, to a limited number. I do however wonder if its just for type rated guys and gals seeing as the update mentioned, 'for those eligble'.

[MOA]

'For those eligible' - maybe read 'eligible for ZFT' for DEP Long Haul? Not too many rated 744 bods in the pool I would have thought.

Best of luck!

4 more 'more junior' bidders on the 744 than me, lovely! JSS implementation excepted....

[WonderBus]

I expect BA to be fully surprised by the no’s to their 747 offers tomo :}

[VJW]

I think it’s safe to say that everyone in the DEP holdpool will be able to complete a ZFT course; roughly speaking most of us probably have somewhere between 1000-1500 additional hours since we entered the pool. Those that entered via the shorthaul route without the Longhaul 2000 hour requirement probably all have it now.

I do wonder how many of those that that entered via the long haul route who are now Captains, are keen to drop 30-40% pay to sit at the bottom of BA seniority list- behind the recent FPP/white tail cadets.

[student88]

Last time I checked, BA dropped their requirement to 1,500 hours and an unfrozen ATPL for DEP long haul..

[Northern Monkey]

I know plenty of people who have left their command to join BA. The calculation involved is, of course, a very personal one. Increasingly though Captains at easyJet and Ryanair are in their mid to late 20's/early 30's. That still gives you a 30+ year career at BA and even a pessimist would acknowledge that some of that is likely to be as a long haul P1.

I acknowledge it is a more balanced decision with the birth of 34 pay points and the expansion of the seniority list. However it's a long term decision and for most people will be about lifestyle as much as money.

Best of luck to those waiting for the call!

[student88]

You'll get to know Riyadh pretty well which is always a plus.

[FACoff]

Out of interest - for these lucky few who have been offered jobs on the 747, how long is it likely to be before they begin to see any reasonable degree of control over their roster?

Anyone going into BA with their eyes open would presumably be expecting to receive the dregs of the flying for a good few years - most of which I assume would also be distributed solely over their weekends. But as their senior SH colleagues also move fleet and slide in above them, seniority for the newbies surely stagnates for quite some time?

[RexBanner]

Anyone joining on the 747 should be aware that not only will they be the most junior pilots on it (hence the Riyadh comments) but they’ll be held back on it until the fleet dies (which may or may not be advantageous - ask some 767 guys for their opinion on that). Roster control is a moot point with only four more months of bidline. After that we’re all on blind lines.

[wiggy]

Roster control is a moot point with only four more months of bidline.

Rex...good point.....Some people here probably did their cost v benefit analysis of moving to BA so long ago that that statement is worth repeating 100 times, with emphasis, for the benefit of those about to make a decision......( I’m sure that wouldn’t change anybody’s mind but it is a health warning: please don’t come back onto here or the BALPA forum in six months time and say Bidline isn’t as wonderful as promised).

The latest state of play is that the first training “videos”/ training packages were released to the rank and file a few days ago and the grumbles about JSS have started again...I suspect some junior folk are going to be seeing a heck of a lot of one or two ME destinations and perhaps central Africa, and not much else, despite the promises.

It does indeed look increasingly like Blindlines for all with a release date that was later than promised (i.e. overall less notice of monthly rosters than is currently the case for most of us)......

[WonderBus]

There’s no way JSS will be ready for June, so it’ll probably be left until October/November, subject to the email saying they’d leave it for summer if there were still teething issues.

The two most junior 747 FOs have both spent December going across the Atlantic. Denver, Phoenix, Miami, Vegas and Boston. There will be trips to sunny Lagos and the odd detox in the ME. Weekends will be a premium and you won’t get roster control for a long time. You will also develop a mistrust of half-moon glasses and long sleeves, but I believe that to be airline wide.

However, with EASA now the and commuters who want to ‘back to back’ there will always be a demand for the ME and Africa. Let’s try and keep it a little balanced.

[wiggy]

You will also develop a mistrust of half-moon glasses and long sleeves, but I believe that to be airline wide

Good grief, haven't seen either of those in years....is it a 744 or Airbus thing?

As for the shape of current rosters, well whatever shape they are now is a bit irrelevant come June or later.....given the way bidding is going to change it will be interesting to see if the likes of Phoenix, Denver and Vegas get hoovered up by senior preferences come the advent of JSS, rather than dropping through to Blindlines (?seeded??).....we will see...

[WonderBus]

Good grief, haven't seen either of those in years....is it a 744 or Airbus thing?

The long sleeves are definitely an Airbus phenomena, I think the glasses come with age!

I agree it does remain to see what JSS brings, and as such then I'm staying put with my fellow flat earth conspirators to keep my seniority for the time being.

I do think a lot of the ME and Africa work does suit commuters due to the +/- 3 hour time difference requirement to back to back work, but how much gets hoovered up isn't clear. I think guys at the bottom of the pile won't get constant rubbish destinations, but they won't get to choose when they go anywhere or where they're going.

[Buter]

I've worn long sleeves on Boeing and Airbus fleets. I don't find I get too much grief about it.:}

[GS-Alpha]

I once flew with a Captain who thought he'd flown a really good route check but then had not been given a really good score to reflect it. When pressed for feedback, the Captain in question was told he'd been marked down because his First Officer was wearing a long sleeved shirt! :ok:

[wiggy]

I've worn long sleeves on Boeing and Airbus fleets. I don't find I get too much grief about it.:}

Yeah, but in your case nobody would dare... :oh:

[eckhard]

I've worn long sleeves on Boeing and Airbus fleets. I don't find I get too much grief about it.

That’s because the tattoos are just visible through the material and people assume you’re a hard nut!

[binsleepen]

Congrats to those in the pool that have got courses.

BA have only released start dates for Feb and Mar for those looking to move seats within the company. I guess those hold-poolers who have just got slots are back filling courses where internal candidates cannot be released from their own fleets. I suspect a similar process will happen every few months as the course programme is put together.

One word of warning though to those going to the 747. For the first 5 years in BA you have an engagement freeze which means you are their b***h and they can do with you what they want. As the 747 is due to retire in 2022 there is the danger that you could be directed (forced to go) to the mini-airbus. Its unlikely but it is a possibility. Just a note of caution.

All the best

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

There seems to be a bit of back handed negativity / sniping going on.

These guys have been treading water for well over a year. I only did it for a month or so and had no finger nails left by the end of it so can’t imagine how happy these guys must be right now. Let’s not p*** all over it with “enjoy Riyadh” and “it’s a dying fleet and you’re their b****”. They know all that and as someone that joined a dying fleet, yes it certainly has its downsides but these guys will end up doing lots of east coast stuff as the jumbo runs down. Not so bad is it. And by the time the fleet goes they’ll either have a year left of engagement freeze so will likely stick in an aspirational bid and get what they want (see 767 junior FO postings in PRIAM) or have to go somewhere they don’t necessarily want to be for a year or so. Again, not the end of the world is it.

Many congrats and Merry Xmas to the guys / girls that have received offers. I’m sure you’re grown ups joining with your eyes open.

[PressTheTit]

Hear, hear! I personally can’t think of anything more awesome than getting to fly the Queen for a few years before she goes. Try 18 months in the pool and NTR, with a tide of cadets ahead of you - fingernails!! Ha, I’m down to my elbows.

[wiggy]

Negativity...maybe, perhaps some of it. It might however also be an attempt to cut off, ahead of time, the possibility of numerous threads along the lines “if only I had known, ******* BA etc, I would have stayed at.etc etc..” that appear from time to time on here or on union forum...

I think we all absolutely understand the drive and wish to get onto the MSL, but it is still worth being aware of how events can unfold and how the rules work as a fleet runs down.

[NLP]

Well spoken 2W2R.

I'm ex-easyJet and after 1.5 year in BA I'm 20% off the bottom on the Airbus. Life is significantly better than it was before. Being junior I quite often get blind lines, which is not always a bad thing. I am only working 14 days in December and that's without using leave.

So far I have done 2 4-sector days in BA. In easyJet I did about 3 a week.

I know most people in the hold pool are waiting for positions on long haul. Being junior on long haul is probably still significantly better than the current jobs most swimmers have at the moment.

Good news for the guys who got start dates. For the ones who don't have start dates yet, stay positive. It is worth waiting for. Good luck everyone and I hope you don't turn down a really good opportunity because of this (very irritating) delay. There are definitely more positives in BA than negatives imo.

[VJW]

NLP were you a FO at Easy?

[Icanseeclearly]

Congrats to those rescued from the pool (as someone who drowned in 2012 I know how frustrating it is) it will be great to have people join us other than FPPs / whatever they are called now....

I just missed out on a long haul slot this year less than 20 places but with 90+ FOs moving on means I reckon a climb of 20-30% in the seniority list which will take me into the top third/quarter so happy days with regard quality of life and rosters so every cloud has a silver lining...

For those Joining us, despite its faults, it’s a great place to be so congrats again

[binsleepen]

2R2W,

Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.

I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.

But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.

Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.

[NLP]

NLP were you a FO at Easy?
Yes I was VJW

[blimey]

As the 747 is due to retire in 2022

Feb 2024. IAG Presentations. Capital Markets Day page 25.

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=240949&p=irol-presentations

Whoever you fly for, it's your attitude to the job and what you make of it. On reflection, I wished I'd stayed with a previous, but it was the right decision at that time - bit like women :hmm:

[TSAT]

I've been swimming for close on 19 months and a silent but keen observer of this thread. I'm desperate for info but I guess due to the heavy workload the answers are not very forthcoming. Looking forward to the web chat that has been mentioned in the last email but not sure what that will achieve. The problem is that my life and big decisions have been pretty much on hold for a year and a half and it is very frustrating to keep guessing.

BA would be a massive step up from where I am now, so an excellent career move which i am looking forward to, however, I've effectively postponed buying a house and turned down a fleet transfer (which comes with an improved roster (and a bond)) due to not knowing if and when the call will arrive.

The fear of drowning is real. having said that the previous 6 or so posts have been encouraging and a breath of fresh air from the high level of negativity I've come to expect on this thread! So cheers guys.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

2R2W,

Sniping/negativity was not my intension at all. As I said a couple of days ago I'm a glass half full type of guy.

I tried to give some reassurance that as courses have only been arranged for Feb and March, more DEPs may get offered places as further courses are arranged throughout the year.

But, as someone who joined in 2012 and had some friends directed to the 320 from the 767 which caused 1 of them to leave BA, I think it is worth knowing all the possibilities/risks. The positives of BA difinitely out-weigh the negatives for me, but its pointless to stick your head in the sand and not make people aware of the possible yet improbable downsides.

Once again congrats to the new joiners, I'm sure you'll have a great time.

Yeah fair enough but one would assume that as professionals they’ve carried out due diligence and made a decision based on info available so surely no ones sticking their head in the sand. Obviously things change but I would argue that joining BA for the short term, whether it be for a specific fleet or roster, is not the right mindset. It is, and always has been, about the long game (as the new ish 767 drivers have been discovering for the last 18 months). As wiggy said above, we all know the importance of getting on the MSL asap. And as for future moaning, I suspect the current volume of moans and groans regarding some very serious changes to pensions will drown them out anyway.

My point was simply that some of the comments above are hardly welcoming to the new joiners. I’m delighted for them having been kept waiting for what most of us would agree is a totally unacceptable amount of time given the time, effort and money candidates Are generally required to dedicate to the process.

Let’s hope 2018 brings some more good news to those still swimming and congrats once again to those with offers.

[binsleepen]

2R2W,

If you don’t personally know any BA pilots to get questions answered, reading threads like this is part of ones due diligence. Unless issues are raised by others an applicant might not know that something was even a problem. A Rumsfeldian unknown unknown.

While the MSL is king in BA, a decision to join and on what terms is a very personal thing depending on your time in life. The decision of a single, twenty something to join will be very different to a married with kids, forty year old who has a short-haul command with a LoCo or is ex-military. The latter probably has low expectations of a long-haul command but is maybe moving for a long-haul FO lifestyle. They may have made a different choice had they known there was a risk of being forced onto short-haul.

Regards

[Icanseeclearly]

Binsleepen

Whilst I agree with what you say to a degree I am ex military and ex loco captain.

I drowned in the pool in 2012 and when successful in 2014 I thought long and hard about the longhaul/shorthaul conundrum but after talking to my many ex colleagues about the MSL I decided to take the shorthaul offer, a move I have never regretted despite being nearly 50.

I have just broken 50% on the airbus seniority list and am moving rapidly forward, when I compare my roster to those who joined on the jumbo on the same day, I hate to say it but mine are better.... more time at home and more days off, this is purely due to the fact that I am getting one of my top 5 triplines every month and as a commuter that is invaluable. Who knows what JSS will bring but I am seriously considering not bidding for longhaul until there are more junior pilots below me.

The question is then, is senior shorthaul (let’s say 45%) giving a better lifestyle than junior longhaul (90%)???? Remember those joining now on the jumbo will be the most junior pilots on that fleet until it retires - that said if offered take it, enjoy it and welcome to the company.

[Enzo999]

I think people who joined the 320 before 2016 have enjoyed unprecedented movement up the seniority list, it has not always been that way and wont be guarantied to be that way in the future. I joined about 16 months ago, started at 95% and that’s where I have stayed not moved one place. 2017 might see some movement but not huge. My point is even on the 320 don’t expect rapid progress through the seniority system, so prepare for many years of weekend work and multiple reserves per year (4 in my case).

[Icanseeclearly]

Fair enough Enzo,

The good news is those on the 320 will move up the seniority list, those on the longhaul fleets won’t (or certainly not to the same extent) things get better faster shorthaul than longhaul. I estimate that with 90 FOs moving on from the 320 at LHR we should move up about 20%

[bex88]

I think talk of trip lines and rosters as they are now is all well and good but the reality is most joining will only ever see JSS. What do we know about JSS? It would be reasonable to conclude that senior pilots may be able to write their own roster but I hear differing views on that. Junior guys are going to get the crap that is not wanted. Today that’s called a blind line and has some perks but under JSS it will be a zero satisfaction roster which is then optimised so that you work the same cap as the guy who cherry picked the good stuff. I have friends in RYR and EZY who I have not been able to recommend BA too. Just be aware of what BA is that is all

[Retrojet]

Anyone know if there have been any other offers apart from the 4 x 747s that’s been discussed?

[wiggy]

I think talk of trip lines and rosters as they are now is all well and good but the reality is most joining will only ever see JSS. What do we know about JSS? It would be reasonable to conclude that senior pilots may be able to write their own roster but I hear differing views on that....

All very fair points. Some (guilty as charged) have been banging on for a while about about Bidline, Blindlines, triplines etc being irrelevant in the brave new world starting this coming summer. It’s no good hearing that somebody at the bottom has a Blindline with two plumb trips this December and thinking : “I’ll join and definitely have a bit of that next Christmas”....

Those of us in house and not part of the development team have only just seen the first of the JSS instructional videos BA/BALPA are putting out in reality at this stage know scooby do about how rosters will look like with JSS, how preferencing will really be handled, how skewed or not seniority will make the rosters..as bex says some think the top few percent will be writing their own rosters, others think the preferencing levers will stop that happening and everybody will at least one “good” trip..........

[GS-Alpha]

I joined British Airways 18 years ago. If I had my time over again, would I have made the same choices? Lately, it pains me to say, I am not convinced I would...

My simple advice to anyone wondering whether to join BA - if there is any doubt, there is no doubt - do not join. One thing I can guarantee you; the company is worse than you think it is. That does not mean it is not better than your current company, and the right choice for some, but you need to be totally convinced it is better. Otherwise, my prediction is you will regret your decision. This might sound negative, but in my opinion, it is the brutal truth. BA is nothing like the company it was even five years ago, never mind twenty.

[eckhard]

I joined British Airways 18 years ago. If I had my time over again, would I have made the same choices? Lately, it pains me to say, I am not convinced I would...

A fair point and obviously reflects your experience.

I joined twenty years ago, aged 42, from a UK charter background with 9 years in command on 737s. Took a huge pay cut and lost two stripes but spent 14 happy years on the 747, then 5 years LHS Airbus and now 18 months LHS 787.

My experience (and maybe yours?) will be difficult for joiners to relate to as the entire demographic and career path has changed. All I can say is I have no regrets and it was the right choice for me but I fully understand why it might not be for others.

[Saab0409]

Anyone know if there have been any other offers apart from the 4 x 747s that’s been discussed?

I would love to hear more on this subject as well. I still have fingers and toes crossed that they will keep calling people as soon as they get a few more start dates

[4468]

Remember those joining now on the jumbo will be the most junior pilots on that fleet until it retires
A total guess. A wet finger in the air, and no more!

With all the NAPS P2s about to bid for every available command, (including SH!) in order to protect their pensions. I don’t imagine there’ll be any shortage of churn.

[EllanVannin]

I'd like to add another more positive reflection to counter the more negative posts pprune tends to attract.

I joined BA 4 years ago. At the time I too wrestled with the prospect of giving up well paid command opportunities at a LoCo to make the move. All I can say is that I am so glad I did.

Everyone has their own needs and wishes, but for me the greatest pleasure has been to explore the world, taking in the sights and culture, having free time for myself, enjoying the food and the occasional party with colleagues. It is a huge privilege that so few people in the world are able to experience. All that alongside a roster bidding and swapping system that allows me to make the most of my family and social life at home.

In short, I am grateful that I can enjoy my life, doing the things that I want to do, rather than continuining with a LoCo job that I personally found repetitive and unsatisfying.

Again, this is just my personal preference. I realise some people are more than happy at a LoCo, and I'm pleased for them. I just wanted to add another perspective. In the end, I find it hard to believe that the lifestyle I describe above was not part of the attraction to the profession for most pilots. If we wanted to be at home every night, then flying was not the obvious choice.

Good luck to everyone who makes the move.

[VJW]

Interesting post EllanVannin.

Your reasons for joining are why everyone in the pool applied, especially as I imagine the majority of us applied via the Longhaul DEP application. However, while the LoCo job can be repetitive, I wonder what you'll think in another 20 years with you still living out of a suitcase and spending 50% of your life in the same hotels away from family. Every job gets repetitive eventually. Being mid 30's with children, I find being home every night with my young family far more satisfying than exploring the world without them, and I wasn't in this situation when I jumped into the pool.

You describe the life of a single mid 20 year old though. Of course anyone early to mid 20's who isn't a Captain at a LoCo should jump at the chance to join BA, that is a step up. Unfortunately not everyone is in that situation. Additionally, giving up the 'prospect' of a command doesn't mean anything. You weren't use to the 30-40% additional salary you'd have been paid, or the deduction in household income those of us that are Captains already would have to absorb. Finally, you presumed you'd have passed ;)

[EllanVannin]

Indeed, it is horses for courses.

With regards to BA, I don't reject your claims entirely, but I want to clarify a few things -

1. 50% of time away from home is quite some way from the truth (even for super junior pilots), unless you want to be away that much.

2. There are hundreds of destinations on the BA network, so it's unlikely you'll get bored of the same hotels. Besides, if you are making the most of exploring the world you are hardly staying in the hotel anyway. Getting bored of a city takes some time indeed, let alone hundreds of cities. There are many more than one lifetime's worth of things to enjoy on the network.

3. I would argue that Point 2 above, alongside the fact we can keep our career professionally interesting by changing fleets every 5 years, means that a career at BA is much less likely to become repetitive than at a LoCo.

4. Like you, I am mid thirties with kids. Personally, spending some time away from home enjoying my career, as well as working less hard than in my previous LoCo life, allows me to really enjoy my time with my family as I am healthier and in a better frame of mind. It's personal, but many BA colleagues I talk to share the same point of view.

5. Whilst I wasn't a captain, I still had to absorb a 40% pay cut when I left my LoCo job. So I was in the same boat. It's a tough call, but it's only money. You can't take it with you. I've lost track of the amount of times I've been on a trip thinking that money can't buy the "free" experiences on offer down route.

It's far from perfect, but I love it.

Each to their own, as they say.

[Northern Monkey]

There will never be a consensus on this because everyone has their own personal lifestyle preferences and ambitions.

I left easyjet 7 years ago and am now mid 30’s, long haul BA, with a young family at home. Personally I cannot think of anything more fatiguing than flying short haul day trips, especially multiple earlies, and then going home to young children every single day. That has got to be seriously hard work. I go down route and get a couple of good nights kip, see and do things I’d never otherwise get a chance to and when I get home, generally I have a good stretch of time off which is 100% focused on family stuff. If one day my priorities change when the kids are older, I’ll bid back to short haul. That variety and flexibility is one of the biggest advantages of working for BA in my opinion. Whatever fleet you join on, you are not committing yourself to one particular lifestyle forever. And this is where people frequently get obsessed with the wrong thing. A 5 year initial freeze shouldn’t put people off considering the next, in some cases, 30-35 years of their career.

Ultimately though how can anyone say with any confidence that they are happier or less happy than they would have been had they taken a different decision. I haven’t worked as a part time easyjet captain, or in the charter world, or on private jets so I can’t know for sure I wouldn’t be happier doing that. You just make the best call you can at the time based on the most information you can get your hands on. Second guessing it down the line isn’t likely to bring you much happiness.

The fact remains not many people ever leave BA whereas the queue to join is usually around the block. You can’t escape the conclusion that there must be something in that.

EDIT: crossed with the post above which covers some of the same points.

[VJW]

I agree with the majority there Northern Monkey nice post.

Again though, FO's who go to BA I can see that as a step up. As a Captain who goes to BA, unless you return quickly to your previous employer, after 12 months or so in BA you can no longer claim to have 'acted as a Captain in the last 12 months' and go elsewhere as a Captain. You're now stuck as an FO, and therefore with BA you're in possibly the best place.

I still want to know which LoCo paid EllanVannin over £100k a year as a FO. Running the numbers with BA, I imagine a year one P60 to read in the region of 70k.

Fact is, I still don't know what to do. I've been offered nothing, but am in the pool for Easy DEC and BA. I'm 99% sure I'm going to Easy, but will always wonder what if, if I turn down BA.

[EllanVannin]

Hi VJW,

I worked for easyJet Switzerland on a "legacy" contract.

The money was very good, but the lifestyle was pretty brutal. Especially on late shifts. My wife and I used to pass like ships in the night on late shifts. It was my wife who pointed out that I might as well be away from home on a long haul trip, as I was basically absent anyway.

[Retrojet]

Rumours from flyertalk forums.....

BA have bought 3 used 77W.....possibly from TAM

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1476013-ba-fleet-new-aircraft-arrivals-retirements-master-tracker-126.html

Anyone know roughly how many crew BA have per 777? Would that equate to about 40-60 pilots?

[wiggy]

Well that rumour will at least provide a bit of light relief from the “mine is bigger than your’s ” rumour running elsewhere about BA getting more 380s..(apparently somebody in cabin crew working on a flight got tipped the wink about that deal by somebody v senior in Airbus.......Those sort of conversations happen all the time in Club apparently :hmm: )

Anyhow where was I? 3 more 777Ws....really really like the rumour but it certainly wasn’t doing the rounds when I was at work earlier.

[Retrojet]

Well there was something online awhile ago about the first bunch of Singapore Airlines A380s....Dr Peters (lease)....rumours were BA was looking at those rewired versions...

Ah here we go, it was on flightglobal
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dr-peters-chief-confirms-ba-talks-on-ex-singapore-a-443294/

[ETOPS]

Retrojet

Would that equate to about 40-60 pilots?

Sorry - I wouldn't get your hopes up. These are direct replacements for the 3 oldest 'frames in the fleet which are due to leave over the next couple of years. There was mention of this plan in the Capital markets presentation a few weeks ago...

[wiggy]

Problem is whilst there might be a basis in fact ( usually starting with somebody running a feasibility) I think those rumours can become circular...the extra 380 rumour also has been running eslewhere, not just on pprune or flyertalk but there's still nothing concrete. On an in house forum it started last week but in that varient it was triggered by someone claiming he had heard a story from a senior cabin crew member who had served Mr XXX who had told him that , etc etc...

As for specifically the 777W rumour, all I can say is that in all honesty that one wasn't circulating even amongst the BA 777/77W community in the last 24 hours so forgive me if I for one take it with a pinch of salt, at least for now...

That said over the years rumours have always been that BA would take more 777Ws if they could get them, much more so than 380's.... so if you want to go with a rumour I'd go with the 77W one.

( Tin hat on, retires to safe distance........................, and add's rider that with it being BA anything could happen tomorrow..))

Edit to add: ETOPS that belatedly rings a bell and would make a bit more sense - unlike fleet expansion I doubt a one for one (or three for three swap) would raise much comment if/when that happened..

[WonderBus]

I’ve heard TAM 77Ws to replace our old 200s, so no new extra frames, just replacements for the old originals.

[Retrojet]

Is it possible they might pushback retirement of the 777-200's and some of the A319/320's that are due to go soon....even for 1-2yrs to source newer aircraft for the LGW expansion?

[ETOPS]

Pay attention WonderBus I just said that two posts up :ugh:

[Mizar]

Any comments on the webinar chat of Wednesday?

[VJW]

I forgot to dial in- probably tells you all you need to know

[CXKA]

Probably only good news if you are rated.

[VJW]

Or you have zero experience and a £120k debt with a licence still hot off the printer

[Retrojet]

we shall have to wait and see what mid January brings.....

[Mizar]

According to what they said I am estimating about 250 holdpoolers currently floating

[CXKA]

I think there will be quite a few LH aircraft rated in the pool also looking to join from ME and HK airlines.

[wiggy]

I can’t help but think BA are more interested in costs than gaining experienced pilots these days

That’s a “given” across the entire operation, not just pilot recruitment.....

[Ea300]

I think there will be quite a few LH aircraft rated in the pool also looking to join from ME and HK airlines.


That would be some serious pay cut and reduction in benefits!

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Would it really? What benefits are they losing? Last time I was in Dubai everything was astronomical. The cost of living out there must be huge and HK isn't any better.

In any case, there's more to life than money. Home vs Sandpit.....no competition whatsoever. Unless it's purely out of necessity, I can't imagine many people making the decision to stay or go based on money.

[CXKA]

From HK its about a 60% cut but you have to look at the bigger picture, cost of housing, standard of living and pollution. Personally for me its an easy decision to return home, money is not everything.

[Mizar]

What about BA's part in the purchase of Niki by IAG? Does anyone think it is going to be a positive aspect for recruitment?

[dirk85]

Well they have committed to hire Niki pilots as part of the deal, I doubt that will affect BA recruitment much.

Plus the conditions at Niki were beyond awful, and I do not expect them to improve.

[GS-Alpha]

It is reported that Niki is to operate as a Veuling subsiduary so it is highly unlikely to have any effect on BA recruitment.

[Retrojet]

Looks like BA are wet leasing Qatar aircraft...but at least its only for a short time...possibly just to get the ex monarch slots expansion going....

"British Airways Plc applied on 4 December 2017 to wet lease six Qatar registered Airbus A320 aircraft, registrations A7-LAA, A7-LAB, A7-LAC, A7-LAD, A7-LAE, and A7-LAF, between 9 February and 9 April 2017 inclusive.
The application has been made on the grounds that the lease is justified on the basis of exceptional needs (Article 13(3)(b)(i) of Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008) to enable British Airways to support passenger operations due to late delivery of aircraft."

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2258.pdf

[G SXTY]

I think there will be quite a few LH aircraft rated in the pool also looking to join from ME and HK airlines.

That would be some serious pay cut and reduction in benefits!

About a 50% pay cut in my case.

As for 'benefits', let's put it this way. I now have union protection and no longer fly to war zones, or have to endure 45 degree heat and dust, infuriating bureaucracy, mad locals razzing their Ferraris at 3am, 'wasta', the call to prayer, punitive company culture, etc etc.

BA ain't perfect, but it's a lot better than most alternatives, and a different world compared to what's on offer in the Middle East. Wild horses couldn't drag me back to the pit.

[embraerFObmi]

from the horses mouth today - 200-250 pilots needed this year alone due expansion... No news whether LH or SH or DE pilots/white tails

but great news for any swimmers!

[GS-Alpha]

I’ve heard we’re no longer scrapping any 747s in 2018.

[student88]

I've heard BA are about to sign a deal for 20 747-8s

[RexBanner]

Still three months to go until April 1st.