BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

And if short haul goes sideways then who knows if you will ever get it

I think if S/H goes "sideways" time to said command will drop sharply, the caveat; that command will be with an IAG subsidiary. Not BA.

The standard BA career path and freedom to move between SH and LH on one seamless BA contract and set of T&Cs may well cease to exist at some point in the future. IAG is not going to support the benefits our legacy agreements bring anymore, that much is clear. I would hazard a guess the music will stop sometime in 2016, at which point it will be important to be in a seat you don't mind sitting in for a long time.

If you are 35 or above and leave Ezy, or even the Middle East, abandoning a command or an impending left seat promotion then I think you are nuts. If you have 35 years to play with and accept the airline is in a state of massive change then come on in, the water is decidedly lukewarm.

[wiggy]

Hey wiggy.
Have you never heard the term 'take home pay'?

I said what I mean, and I mean what I said.

Yes I have, and I'm sure you do.

I could play the same "game" with my payslip because of where I live and am taxed, but the only person I would be fooling would be myself. If the original comment had been "his take home is 20K a month, mind you he/she has yet to pay tax in Ireland/France/Upper Volta or wherever" then eyebrows wouldn't have been raised, and the non-believers wouldn't have been quite as vociferous since 20K gross is, whilst unusual, at least credible.

Ultimately I know you (and probably others) think I'm coming over like a right phiart but I'm not looking to argue for the sake of it. I do however think it's important potential joiners don't make a life changing decision because they were unknowingly comparing apples with oranges.

Right, I am now off to console myself by looking at the "take home pay" on my own payslip :D whilst ignoring the tax bill that hit the door mat a few weeks back :ouch:....:sad:

[andymiff]

Have tried Safari, Chrome, Firefox IE10 and no browser can get past the disability scheme question. Those who have applied, how did you manage it?

Cheers

[no sponsor]

BitMoreRightRudder - I sincerely hope you are wrong.

[WhyByFlier]

BMRR I think you're spot on with your predictions. I thought in the past you were slating ezy and extolling the virtues of BA but I was wrong - your previous posts were pretty down to Earth and realistic.

[bucket_and_spade]

andymiff,

Had the same problem - cleared up when I went to the local library to use a Windows PC running a recent (I'm guessing) version of IE. None of my Apple devices worked.

[Scanwing]

Had the same problem but then tried to do the whole application on my iPad and it worked :-)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

No sponsor - I hope to god I'm wrong too.

[andymiff]

Cheers guys. Had to find ie9 for it to work.

[billybuds]

Is there a chance that anyone who is towards the bottom of the seniority list on the 747 could share a couple of rosters?

Much appreciated, just want to see what I am getting myself in for!

[zeddb]

I eventually managed to get the thing to work on a Macbook, you have to scroll down with the arrow keys to see the rest of the page as it didn't load fully straight off, that was using Firefox. Had the acknowledgment so at least it got there.

Best of luck to all. A bit of luck for myself would be quite welcome as well.

[binsleepen]

Billiybuds,

Two typical rosters from the bottom of the 747 are like this:

1/2 off, 3-7 s Africa, 8 off, 9-11 E USA, 12-16 off, 17-19 E USA, 20/21 off, 22-24 mid east, 25-27 W USA, 28-30 off.

1/2 carry in trip, 3/4 off, 5-7 E USA, 8-10 off, 11-13 Africa, 14/15 off, 16-18 mid east, 19/20 off, 21-23 E Canada, 24/25 off, 26-28 Africa, 29/30 off.

The most junior FO on the fleet will be about 500 places above you on the seniority list. So you will be at the bottom for a log while.

Hope this is of use

Regards

[4468]

Five trips. Sixteen days off at home. (In a 30 day month!) Eight days off downroute, and at least one three crew trip.

That's 'junior'?

Sweet.

Where do I apply??:E

[RHS]

4468

Looking at my roster this month I couldn't agree more! That looks fantastic.

[Wirbelsturm]

How about:

1-3 Off, 4-8 Caribbean, 9-16 off, 17-19 E USA, 20-22 E USA (Back2back), 23-27 off, 28-31 Caribbean.

:-D

777 fleet. ;-)

[RHS]

How about 6 days hoping around Europe. 1 day off and then three more days hoping around?

Jealous aren't you?

[sidtheesexist]

Race to the bottom anyone?!

[wiggy]

That looks fantastic.

That's 'junior'?


If you guys are longhaulers and think those are good/easy/fantastic rosters :eek: you genuinely have my sympathy, please let us know who you work for so we can put them on our "avoid" list...

For those who haven't experienced the joys of Long Haul: yes, the rosters look good on paper, but to badly paraphrase somebody: "before you judge a pilot's roster, work it for a month"

In the case of those binsleepin has kindly provided it's worth considering that hidden away beneath the surface are a fair few time zone changes (which may or may not be trivial), not much in the way of augmented crew, but above all a lot of nights out of bed tied in with 24 hour layovers, which produces multiple swings back and forth between day "shifts" and night "shifts" over the course of the month.......

IMHO those lines look like they are extremely tiring/fatiguing - a run of them certainly would be, that's why they're junior lines.

[SkyRocket10]

That looks fantastic.

Just remember you will likely be at the bottom of any long haul list for around 7yrs+. In that time, aside leave, you will have little to likely no control over days off (working every Xmas!), leave allocation or destinations. As a junior pilot in reserve band 1 you will also do more standby than the majority of the fleet for the first 5yrs. These things may seem trivial now, but give it a few years and see if you feel the same.

Not to put a damper on things but also consider that a number of pilots in the past have been allocated long haul fleets, turned up on day one, and subsequently been allocated short haul. You are joining a company, not a fleet. Be prepared!

Finally, it has been confirmed that any long haul recruitment will be onto the 747 with perhaps a small number going on the 787. There will be no DEP on the 777 due sufficient internal bidders.

[Airclues]

(working every Xmas!)

Have things changed? There used to be a point system for working over Christmas that avoided this.

[SkyRocket10]

There used to be a point system for working over Christmas that avoided this.

There is a points system, but most guys have half a dozen already and all the LH DEP's will start at 0. They will also start with 0 leave points, which are built up over a rolling 5yr window. Added to this is the fact that there will probably be very little future external recruitment to the fleet so the majority of new pilots to the fleet will be senior internal bidders who have likely already built a bank of points from short haul.

[Wirbelsturm]

Wiggy,

It's all about choice. The wife wanted the first Caribbean, I wanted the second one and the back to back is my choice so I have certain days of the month off. All told, for my personal circumstances, the month works out very well.

Personally I don't find East Coast particularly demanding. But then that's what it's all about, differing personal preferences and the ability (after time) to fulfill them.

[MrHorgy]

At the risk of repeating a question already answered, what is the likelihood of 737 being added to that list of acceptable types?

[wiggy]

TBH there's a hardcore of senior pilots (self included) who for reasons various bid for Christmas "out"......and in theory very little Xmas work should drop through to the junior Blindlines, though who knows what will happen this year under the new rule set.

My personal nightmare (as someone who doesn't live near LHR), is having Xmas off but having an early report on Boxing Day - hence my inclination to bid "out"!


W (belatedly)

Personally I don't find East Coast particularly demanding. But then that's what it's all about, differing personal preferences and the ability (after time) to fulfill them.

Well some East coast destinations/trips maybe :bored: and as for back to backs :{ but anyhow just to emphasise that I wasn't making a point/having a pop about your particular roster.

[billybuds]

binsleepin - Thanks a lot for that, much appreciated. Above what sector length do you get an augmented crew?

[Juan Tugoh]

The 737 has a very limited life left in BA and there will be no new recruits on to it. BA therefore has no need to 737 type ratings. they will take the 737 as an acceptable rating when the supply of people rated on relevant types dries up. It is all about cost these days, BA will no longer pay for a rating they don't have to.p

[wiggy]

Above what sector length do you get an augmented crew?

billyb...if I may, since I'm "here"

There's no absolute answer since it depends on the likes of report time and previous rest as well as sector length.

As an example LHR/ORD/LHR is one of the longer non-augmented trips, whereas LHR/MIA/LHR is on the cusp and if scheduled as a 24 hour nightstop you'll be augmented, but if it is scheduled for a 48 hour slip then you are basic crew.

[TopBunk]

Wiggy

TBH there's a hardcore of senior pilots (self included) who for reasons various bid for Christmas "out"......and in theory very little Xmas work should drop through to the junior Blindlines, though who knows what will happen this year under the new rule set.

Shouldn't that be NO work should drop through. When I left, all Xmas work was covered by (some Xmas Out Reserve lines) then by the Xmas Out Trip Lines. No Xmas Out work was on a Blind Line.

Has that changed?

[zeddb]

Anyone heard anything yet re DEP 744? I see it's been extended to Oct 20th.

[GS-Alpha]

No it hasn't changed. You'll also remember that 'allocation' of a Christmas out line is governed by a lack of Christmas points, not a lack of seniority.

[TopBunk]

GS-Alpha

Yes, I remember that!

What has that got to do with my point or the price of fish?

I also remember the previous 'xox' type-system for allocating Xmas trips that were not bid for, do you?:ugh:

[wiggy]

TopBunk

Shouldn't that be NO work should drop through.

OK, you've caught me out :\ - In theory and under the rules as you and I knew them I'm sure you're right. However I'm not one of the bidline/scheduling gurus and recently the rules seem to be being amended every month (basically everytime there's a hiccup in the manning). Given that I'll stick to hedging my bets in case some poor bod gets assigned this year.

[Jumbo2]

they will take the 737 as an acceptable rating when the supply of people rated on relevant types dries up. It is all about cost these days, BA will no longer pay for a rating they don't have to.p

Having said that with enough hours on the 737NG you get a significant discount on both the ground school and the simulator sessions required converting onto the B777. I don't know if the same applies converting from the 737NG or classic onto the B747.

[binsleepen]

Skyrocket10,

Just remember you will likely be at the bottom of any long haul list for around 7yrs+. In that time, aside leave, you will have little to likely no control over days off (working every Xmas!), leave allocation or destinations. As a junior pilot in reserve band 1 you will also do more standby than the majority of the fleet for the first 5yrs. These things may seem trivial now, but give it a few years and see if you feel the same.2/3rds of the bottom 50 or so F/Os on the 747 have only 0 or 1 Xmas point and many F/Os have only 2 or 3 points all the way to the top of the list.

Leave/DFW points acrew on a rolling 4 year basis. i.e. each week of leave you get has an associated number of points depending on its popularity (6 points to the least popular > 1 point to the most popular). Leave is allocated first to those with the most points gained over the previous 4 years and then working down the points list to those with the least points. As has already been said everybody wants different things so even with a few points you may still get some of the weeks you want in the first years.

I agree that under the Pre-August old bidding system junior guys did a lot more reserve. Since August however I have bid for reserve every month, as my points said I should, and never got it. This may be that now reserve guarantees a block of days off with no chance of allocation. So it seems to me that reserve is now a more popular bidding choice for the more senior bods. This may just be a temporary situation.

Every blind line on the 747 has a seeded trip. This means that each blind line has a reasonable trip pre allocated to it i.e a CPT, SFO, LAS, PHX. These are 4 day 3 crew trips with at least 2 days off afterwards.

There is the risk though, as you point out, that you may start on the 747 but as the fleet shrinks be directed to the Airbus 320. This has happened to a few guys on the 767 and they were rightly very p****d off. So buyer beware. They did though go from the bottom of the 767 to 100 off the bottom of the 320 list which gives them a much greater control of days off etc, and they now get to fly with mixed fleet. :ok:

The grass for a junior bod at BA is not bright green but I don't think it is as brown as you make out. Particularly if you are trying to get back to the UK or your present company is not that financially stable.

Regards

[GS-Alpha]

TopBunk

That's twice in recent times you've replied rudely to me when I'm simply backing up what you've said. I'll leave you to it you rude little man.

[Juan Tugoh]

Every blind line on the 747 has a seeded trip. This means that each blind line has a reasonable trip pre allocated to it i.e a CPT, SFO, LAS, PHX. These are 4 day 3 crew trips with at least 2 days off afterwards.

Not true, there are seeded blind lines but there are also a fair number of genuine blind lines. the seeds tend to go, not to the bottom, but to the middle level of seniority as they are too good a clashing tool to ignore. that said the destruction of BLRs being carried out under the auspices of the current BACC chairman has nullified that to some extent.

[Hotel Mode]

Not true, there are seeded blind lines but there are also a fair number of genuine blind lines. the seeds tend to go, not to the bottom, but to the middle level of seniority as they are too good a clashing tool to ignore. that said the destruction of BLRs being carried out under the auspices of the current BACC chairman has nullified that to some extent.

binsleepen is right. All stage 1 blind lines on the 747 are seeded. Trip lines can also go all the way to the bottom on the 747 which is another good thing for the junior. The bottom of the list is at least getting LAS/PHX/SFO blind lines if they bid for them.

If somebody gets a blank blind line on the 747 after stage 1 it's because they forgot to bid/didn't get awarded any line they bid for.

[binsleepen]

Juan,

As I understand it on the 747 the number of trip lines plus seeded blind lines plus reserve lines equals the effective numbers of bidders. So if you bid for everything you would get a trip line or seeded blind line unless you were allocated reseve.

As Hotel Mode says you will only get a blank blind line if you did not bid or you did not bid for enough i.e. everything you bid for was taken by someone more senior.

Regards

[SkyRocket10]

2/3rds of the bottom 50 or so F/Os on the 747 have only 0 or 1 Xmas point and many F/Os have only 2 or 3 points all the way to the top of the list.

I'm not sure of exact numbers but the majority of these 50 joined in the last 2yrs.

My original figure was based on the fact that a colleague joined as a DEP on the 747 and was forced to work his first 2 Xmas, the next two he bid for reserve to avoid any assignment and was lucky enough to avoid any trips.

[WhyByFlier]

Regardless of it all - those rosters are appalling. Anyone who thinks they look exciting needs to get a life - literally. You're cut from the same cloth as P2F - work is to earn money so you can enjoy life, it's not meant to be your life at any cost.

[wiggy]

those rosters are appalling. Anyone who thinks they look exciting.......


WBF

Looking back I wonder if some of the positive comments about those rosters might have been because it's possible to misconstrue a "17-19 E USA," or a "21-23 E Canada" as being Day 1 Work, Day 2 a complete day off down route, Day 3 work back?

In case anyone who has not done long haul is still wondering in reality how it all works it will be something like this:

Day 1, late AM/ PM/evening report, for a day or evening flight out.
Day 2, morning off, then afternoon report for the start of the night flight back,
Day 3 Am - continuation of the flight back to base.

The 5 day Africa mentioned will probably be night flight out overnight Day 1/morning of day two. Day three will indeed be a day off downroute :D, Report late PM of day four for a night flight back, landing at base morning of day 5.

[Pork chop express]

Does anyone have a newish joiner SH Airbus roster they could share please?

Thanks. :ok:

[WHYEYEMAN]

Those long haul rosters would mess with my brain. But I've just done 5 earlies buzzing around Europe and that has also messed with my brain. Hmmm. Bring back the 1960's.

[WhyByFlier]

I've seen several SH 320 rosters for both LGW and LHR across winter and summer and they're again appalling at times.

An example of a friend who is LHR 320 this month from Roster Buster:

Day 1-7 on night stopping every night, off 8-9, 10-11 on (day trips), 12-13 off, 14-15 on (day trips), 16-17 off, 18-19 on night stopping, 20 off, 21-27 on night stopping every night. Here take day to mean within what I can see of the roster, not date.

That's after 3 and a bit years in the company - working every weekend. I'd rather bunch my stuff together and have proper blocks off, not night stop and get my fair share of weekends off. Call me a boring weirdo for enjoying family/ friend time by all means but BA are in fact TOO stuck in the 60s in many respects. I wouldn't invest my time in a company in this way on the basis of a promise later - which without a shadow of doubt will not be delivered.

[Pork chop express]

Thanks WBF

you haven't cheered me up!!!:sad:

[Mikehotel152]

What's more, with a roster like that you have to live very close to your base. Heathrow is an expensive part of the world. On a more structured roster you could commute.

[MrHorgy]

All,

I understand the 737 is nearly finished and it wouldn't be for entry onto that, but I was pondering more the 777/747 especially for guys with lots of hours (I have 5000+). Managing about 9 days off a month at the moment and going from earlies to lates mid duty-cycle, with at times less than 62 hours rest between 6 consecutive runs does not make for good rest planning!

[4468]

Wiggy

Surely you must be over-egging your pudding. The LH rosters given here look tranquil and serene when compared to the back2back2back2back2back2back rosters some of your colleagues seem to manage with absolutely no problem at all! (whilst commuting from far far away!):eek:

Get a grip man!

[wiggy]

EMB-145LR

I was under the impression that BA had a better scheduling agreement? Is there any sign of improvement in the near future?


Probably worthy of a thread in itself but the answer is (IMHO): Absolutely not, if anything for many it's on course to get worse.


4468

The LH rosters given here look tranquil and serene when compared to the back2back2back2back2back2back rosters some of your colleagues seem to manage with absolutely no problem at all! (whilst commuting from far far away!)


Ahhh ...have you been reading another Forum :oh:...

I'm pretty sure ;) that the colleague involved must be very very very senior and certainly wouldn't be doing it with a string of East Coast 3 dayers. In any event EASA is going to put paid to most B2Bs in the not too distant future, reducing the ability to swap/trade trips to produce a more "commuter friendly" roster, something anyone planning on living outside the London Area needs to factor into their decision making.

Get a grip man!

It's a fair cop, I promise I'll try :ok:

[zeddb]

Just had the inevitable PFO

Rated and current on the 744/8, 5500 hours on type. ex GSS.

God alone knows what they are looking for. Not me obviously.:ugh:

Looks like the dole queue after xmas...:(

[4468]

get some 320 hours, then come to easy and have a career - a work/life balance. Keep fighting. Consider no man happy until his end is known. BA pilots are faced with potentially one of the most contrasting changes, shy of Swissair, that any pilots will face. It's done. Tables are turning.
The problem "BA pilots" face is that the company are attempting (reasonably successfully) to reduce the T&Cs of one third of BA pilots (SH) down to the likes of Easy.

However, still on my first marriage and with well over 20 years now in BA I've probably had my career. Work/life balance is not an issue, and with something approaching £2million pounds in a SIPP, I don't need to worry too much that my end is not yet known. Though I accept the airline world is not what it once was for any of us, and certainly for those starting out. That's a shame, but it is no fault of mine! I have done nothing to hasten the career's demise, other than to have been present to witness it!

I hope you enjoy Easy as much as I enjoyed BA you bitter little man.

[4468]

Your SIPP is exceptional - certainly not the standard for a BA pilot I'd hazard. Rich wife/ inheritance/ wind fall/ trust fund/ no life?
Exceptional? How would I know. It's not a topic of conversation at work.

Rich wife? Ha! Inheritance? Ha! Wind fall? I wish! Trust fund? No! No life? Quite the opposite!

I transferred a small personal pension into the scheme when I joined, and then spent at least ten years accruing at 45ths. It's what it says on the tin. My pension earned in BA.
Ask BMI/ MON pilots how safe pensions are.
Precisely why it's now in a SIPP, and no longer in the company scheme. It's my money to do with whatever I wish.

As for your financial calculations over a career, you'd need to be far more rigorous to come up with an accurate comparison I'm afraid. You'd also need a crystal ball. 18 years to a command? A LH command maybe. But a Gatwick command living an Easyjet style life? Not a chance. Gatwick is the most junior because there are far far better options available within BA for anyone who so prefers.

Have you overlooked the fact that some of our senior co-pilots earn around £100k basic, plus allowances? A 35 year captain (the career length you chose) would be earning in the order of £150k basic plus allowances. Your 'back of a fag packet' calculations don't stack up I'm afraid.

As I said. I hope you enjoy Easy as much as thousands of pilots are able to enjoy BA. Whilst you're flogging backwards and forwards around Europe on multi-sector days, there are BA colleagues taking a couple of Rolls Royce to the Maldives. They'll probably stay a week before bringing the Rollers back. It's their job you see. Sometimes the roster looks more like a holiday brochure!:ok:
a work/life balance.
Don't make me laugh!

Incidentally, I understand from the recruitment department we are interviewing a considerable number of Easy pilots. Can't imagine why. Obviously not you though eh?:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BA offers a top drawer package in the UK. Always did, still does.

I was lucky not to get into BA and instead get into EZY because the last decade has been the glory years of share windfalls and short commands and ready base transfers. That is probably somewhat over as the business matures.

My reason for posting is to make only the following point. Housing costs within 90mins of LHR (and LGW) have risen from silly to breathtaking compared to the UK regions whilst the direction of travel on tax is that high earners are going to be vigorously milked harder including their pensions. So. If you can live in the regions (or abroad) like many EZY and also many BA crew manage then that is a Good Thing.

BA top dollar money against a nice house within 90 mins of LHR will probably leave less disposable income than Jet2 top dollar money and a nice house within 90 mins of Leeds when applying the tax regime of 2019.

It might be sweet to be a BA 777 pilot and live in Leeds or an EZY Captain and live in Leeds. What might become less pleasant is a BA pilot stuck for a long time on short haul in LHR or an EZY Captain stuck in LGW.

Tax and house prices are becoming game changers sadly. That £2m family house in Maidenhead might be consuming £13,000 a year 'mansion tax' of that final salary pension within the next couple of years...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I know of a couple of EZY SFO's who have had the welcome on board letter from BA but don't know whether to go or not. There is no right or wrong answer. Some have gone, some have stayed.

Sadly, and I mean that because I really want other employers to offer much higher pay, its not as clear cut as it once was.

[SWATSON12]

Does anyone have any idea when the SH review will be out and what it may result in?

[4468]

WBF

Some of what you say bears a passing resemblance to accuracy. Some does not. However...
It's likely to be 12 years as an FO on 320 before even having the chance to change fleets now and you know it.
I'm afraid I don't 'know that' at all! That sounds completely wrong. If you accept that BA need LH copilots, (2016 sees the first BA pilots reaching 65 since retirement age changed) and that the company aren't, in any normal circumstances, able to recruit into positions for which there are unfrozen internal bidders. Then I don't see how it could possibly take very much longer than the Engagement Freeze (5 years) to move.

Bowwing

I'm afraid I can't say this with any certainty, however:

Firstly congratulations. Particularly if you go straight to LH. BA place no residency requirements on anyone. New joiners will be no different, but I'm afraid I can't recall how long you must serve (if any) before qualifying for staff travel.

Tax is between you and HMRC, and is dependent on how many 'midnights' you spend in the UK.

Part time is not limited by length of service, though I vaguely recall there may be a requirement to spend 6 months full time after any conversion.

ATB.

Swatson12

I believe the SH review is due to be announced before the end of the month. Mutterings are that pilots won't be too surprised? Who knows if that's accurate?

[wiggy]

Bowwing

I would like to continue to live in my current overseas home if I were to join BA, is that acceptable for new joiners? And if it is, can I opt out of PAYE tax or would I pay tax as normal and then need to submit a tax rebate claim at the end of each year?

No reason why not, just be aware if asked that there's a caveat in Flight Time Limitations about not having to travel more of than 90 minutes prior to report for a trip.....

There's a bit more these days to being non-resident than simply midnights out of the UK so you'll need to take professional advice. If you are deemed non-resident by UK HMRC yes you can apply to be on a list with BA which removes you from PAYE. If the rules for you are the same as those that apply to UK nationals then depending on how much UK Duty you do in the year you will still liable to an element of UK tax. You'll probably have to file an annual return with HMRC and could/would have a annual tax bill based on the duty time in the UK during the year. In addition you will obviously (??) have also have to reconcile your Tax and Social Charges situation with your own tax authorities "at home".

At the moment you get staff travel after 6 months.

Not sure what the requirement is to get part time in the first place, but the last time I looked you needed to do three months full time flying after any conversion course before going onto or/back onto a part time roster.

[Chief Willy]

4468,

There are very few compulsory retirements for the next 5 years, and the masses do not hit 65 for about a decade hence the stagnation and long times to get off the SH fleets.

There are many many additional variables in predicting when one reaches the major seniority number to leave SH, such as expansion, take-up of part-time, tax changes, type requirements on new types etc, but as things stand a decade on SH does not look unreasonable. I got very bored once and look at how long from my seniority as junior trash and it looked to be in the 7-9 year region. And it that length of time so much can change in IAG/BA that it could become moot.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I believe the SH review is due to be announced before the end of the month. Mutterings are that pilots won't be too surprised? Who knows if that's accurate?



That seems to be the gist of it. Other departments will most likely bear the brunt. The biggest hit for SH pilots would be a pay cap at LHR to match LGW. But everything is conjecture.

One thing is for certain, SH pilots cannot work any harder, and more to the point SH cannot improve its balance sheet unless BA sort out the dysfunctional and frankly ridiculous working practices and inefficiencies of the many working groups and logistics systems that are the hallmarks of the airbus operation out of LHR.

The biggest single reason we still have an in-house SH operation (any other legacy airlines recruiting into their SH arm?) is that BA are actually not very good at running an efficient and profitable SH airline, and never have been. That is what is about to change, as IAG now run the show. Long Haul is and will continue to be THE part of BA that is desirable to work for from a pay/work life balance. Overall BA is still a good gig. But only really if LH is your bag and you don't mind spending 10-15 years building seniority to enjoy the best it has to offer.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Forgive me, I am intrigued by this as its a hot topic amongst the FO's at work of whom half are applying to BA or half are wondering whether they ought to have.

One thing is for certain, SH pilots cannot work any harder

Is it pretty common to be doing more than 800hrs flying/1500hrs duty in BA short haul?

The most common heard motivator I hear runs along the lines of "I can't do forty years of low cost flying" due to a perception of high utilisation. Generally people nod and accept that as a given. Yet like last year I look at my logbook and note todays rolling 365 is:


Flying time 695:20 Duty hours 1398:03


That's with three days sick, normal leave and full time roster in an orange minibus. If BA short haul really is worse than this rather than better then a few people's lifestyle calculations at work might need adjustment. Relocating to London to fly more hours on longer duties is not part of the generally portrayed brochure.

[AdrianShaftsworthy]

BMRR, haven't heard about a possible SH pay cap at LHR. If that's true I believe over half the LHS peeps are well over 16 yrs plus resulting in major pay cuts. Think the proverbial may hit the fan pretty soon! :ooh:

[Cattivo]

There really is so much drivel written on here about BA, most of which seems to come from people who aren't even in BA! I'm a junior SH commuter and life is nowhere near as bad as what's been spouted on this forum.

The 10-12 year wait for LH is utter BS. I did my own sums from last year's bid and also had a detailed response from the P&P guys and it's the standard 5 year wait as has already been mentioned. There are 750 internal transfers planned in the next 12 months alone!

I've been at the bottom for the last few years and my rosters (triplines and blindlines) have always been blocked work. One huge, unique advantage of life in BA is the ability to chop and change your roster through eMaestro to suit your needs.

I have done a couple of consecutive months of only one weekend off, then I've had a couple of months with almost every weekend off! The last 12 months have been harder work due to the manning level ballsup but our CAP in nov is down to the 70's. I didn't come close to the 800 hour mark last year, it was less than 700!

BA isn't what it was. It will probably deteriorate. There are elements of the Ezy/loco job that I'd love to have but you can't have it all (?). I would, however, still recommend BA. Network size, control of roster, fleet switching, variety, security and decent pay (with the allowances tax calculation and increments my take home is more than I thought it'd be and continues to go up).

I am posting this to add a little balance to the continual negative slant on life in BA. It really isn't that bad.😄

[bigdaviet]

Could anyone else post (or PM) typical LH rosters?

Thanks in advance.

[tubby linton]

It would be useful to the pilot community if some feedback was given regarding the reasons why some of us have been unsuccesful in the recent recruiting exercise despite more than meeting the minimum criteria . Some of us have lots of experience and have been flying aircraft safely and efficiently for many years but have failed to progress past the initial hurdles. BA needs pilots and we would make good employees who would do our best for our new employer and would be a pleasure to work with if we were given the chance.
Would the head of BA pilot recruitment please post some reasons why we were turned down and what we can do to improve our chances in any further round of recruitment. It would also help if he gave an honest assessment on what is BAs upper age limit for recruitment.

[3Greens]

Do you really think the head of BA recruitment is going to post on here? If so maybe that is one reason you didn't get in? Delusional

[Al Murdoch]

3Greens - he already has.

[squawkident.]

Tubby Linton,

If you want your feedback then you are entitled to their complete data holding about yourself under the data protection act.

I believe there is a government website detailing this and it includes standard template letters.

[wiggy]

AdrianSW :}

... haven't heard about a possible SH pay cap at LHR. If that's true I believe over half the LHS peeps are well over 16 yrs plus resulting in major pay cuts. Think the proverbial may hit the fan pretty soon!

I haven't heard that either but even if it was on the cards I suspect it would not be applied retrospectively precisely for the reason you mention ( stands by for another rant about "Champagne Socialists" ).

Anyway another rumour has it the company may well be having difficulty getting the review past other (i.e. non-pilot) groups, so maybe if the proverbial does arrive it will be coming from another direction...

[jb5000]

I believe that BA SH at LHR and EZY LGW are probably similar levels of flying hours. BA at LHR is probably more time in uniform than EZY from the regions.

The major factor for me that has improved my lifestyle by a factor of 10+ is the ability to control when you work. Even from the first day you walk through the door you stand a chance of getting triplines that give you the day(s) off you're after and the type of work you prefer. I quite like early there and backs, weekends off but mixed in with a few nightstops a month and that's broadly what I get. Everyone wants something different and that's what makes bidding for work so helpful. Even if you're not 100% satisfied at publication then eMaestro or iBid etc helps you to tweak it to get more of what you want.

Knowing you're going to be working next year on your friends wedding in August on a 5/3/5/4 was painfully frustrating because you knew that every annual leave day would be red. As I said before though, everyone wants something different so I'm sure that a fixed roster works perfectly for some people.

I found the flying in EZY pretty dull and the ability to see some of Europe's best cities as well as the odd day off on the beach after a bit of mid haul to be a welcome change.

Each to their own but I'd be wary of choosing one job over another simply by comparing block / duty times. I'd much rather fly 900hrs a year on the days I would prefer to work rather than 700 over days I need to be off. You don't need to be in any time at all to start getting control over your life and with rumours of large recruitment this year and next mean that you'll enjoy that control very quickly.

[Sky_Squire]

I would also love to see a few more typical rosters for junior pilots on 747/777/767. Anyone willing to post here, or PM would be a great help.

[wiggy]

Recent month, juniorish Tripline holder, 777 P2 roster was something like this:

1-3 Off
4-6 Middle East
7-9 Off
10-12 Africa
13-17 Off
18-20 USA
21-23 Off
24-26 Gulf
27-28 Off
29-1 USA

So 5 reports at LHR in the month, which is fairly typical. I haven't looked to see whether he/she was above or below the CAP target.

Adjacent pilots' rosters are similar, there's the Caribbean stuff out of LGW to chuck into the mix and one junior pilot had picked a long Australia trip ( 9 day SIN/SYD/SIN) which accounts for about half a months work and would be equivalent to 3'ish shorter trips. A lot of very junior pilot's are on Blindlines so their lines will possibly have fewer trips on them at publication but the offset is that they will have blocks of Assignable days which can be filled by the company with a night's notice.

Hope that helps.

[jb5000]

Blimey - good memory!

I did 6 months in the UK on a fixed roster before ejecting to the 'other part'. That was the dying days of the original CTC Wings course and despite not technically being an EZY UK employee the rostering agreements were identical at the time - 5/3/5/4.

A lot has changed of course in both companies since then and I completely understand the point of view of people who decide that EZY(S) is better for them.

[frozenpilot]

How often do BA upload new assessment dates? I received an invitation this afternoon and by the time I logged on there were no slots available.

Thanks

[Callsign Kilo]

When I went through it a few years back they called me to confirm at date. I recall this was for stage 2 (sim). There were only two stages back then. Best of luck.

[bex88]

I have heard of the SH pay cap at LHR too. A little more information on it is that it will be applied just like the change to pay point 34 was. So congratulations your pay point (for arguments sake) 19 you continue as before. Sorry your pay point 18 and will not progress any higher until you transfer to LH.

Until it comes out in a official document go along the lines of more for the same or less and you won't be far wrong. I just hope that they tackle the big issues once and for all rather than this continual appeasement of inefficient departments

[bex88]

It's like with pay point 34. You joined on the 19th April = 24 point pay scale. You joined on the 20th = 34 point pay scale.

I don't think fairness has much to do with it but more of you can't miss what you don't have.

Life could certainly be a lot more unfair. Recent event worldwide focuses how fortunate we are.

[wiggy]

were that to come in to place the upshot would be a LH FO would earn more than a SH capt past a certain PP.

Which, FWIW, is precisely where we were a decade or two ago, in the days of Long Haul "Box" payments. Until the individuals involved were close to retirement age there was very little financial incentive for the very senior LH F/O's to consider moving to short haul for a command.

bex

I just hope that they tackle the big issues once and for all rather than this continual appeasement of inefficient departments

I would hope so as well but given previous form/ experience/current rumours I rather suspect "they" won't.

[bex88]

:ugh: I hope not. Unless the difficult issues are taken by the scruff we will not achieve our dictated goals. I will hold my breath but I fear more frustration :sad:

[4468]

So potentially some are trading more money in EZY
As I pointed out in this very same thread, I think that is highly debatable. In any event, you'd need a crystal ball. As far as work is concerned, what you get in Easy on day one, is what you'll likely be doing on the day you retire 40(?) years later, having driven to/from your home base 8000 times! In BA there is every likelihood of 'seeing the World' at the company's expense. A few days in the Maldives/Buenos Aires/Capetown etc.

As you say: "horses for courses."

wiggy and bex.

I have started to hear whispers that SH pilots may feel a little disappointed in a few weeks time when the SHBR hits the streets!:rolleyes:

[Smokie]

SHBR ?:confused:

[wiggy]

SHBR = "Short Haul Business Review...."

The company is looking at more ways of making short haul profitable. (or more profitable, depending on your view of the way the company's accounts are run). The fact there was going to be such a review was much trumpeted many months back, but recently management seem to have gone strangely quiet on the subject.

It's sometimes also referred to as "BOHICA" :oh:

[4468]

4468 what happens when there's a LHBR? Though you currently feel safe in your LH life boat it'll soon catch up with you
Oh, if it gets stressful, I guess I'll just retire? (Young!)

:D:D:D:D:ok:

WBF, you seem to have a real axe to grind over BA. Why is that???

As you say, "horses for courses." You obviously enjoy your daily drive to and from work, others prefer to spend a few hours in a nice restaurant next to the Parthenon/Stellenbosch/Hollywood Hills/Caribbean/Danube/Central Park/Eiffel Tower/Sydney Harbour/Pyramids - all of which (and much much more) I have done whilst at work!
People who've joined in the last few years are staring down the barrel of 12 years A320 FO, A320 command then another 8 years on A320 before getting LH - where they'll need to go back to the RHS.
No they are not. That's garbage. Though like many things in BA, it's certainly available as a choice! Also, what on earth makes you think anyone would have to spend 8 years as an A320 captain and then "they'll need to go back to the RHS." (of LH)??

Don't you understand our system?

[Xulu]

That's nice for you 4468. Long haul certainly is a selfish lifestyle choice.

Whilst you're downroute alone again, deciding whether to go for a drink with a bunch of strangers, your kids are coming to hate you and your wife's off with the milkman.

Or do you actually believe they are happy with your lifestyle choice? Honestly.

Long haul is a short term, single mans game. Though I understand the attraction.

You seem to gloat about it. For me, the worst thing that can happen is you enjoy being away from home, and even worse your family start to enjoy you being away from home too.

The industry is littered with broken or unhappy marriages - There's a reason for that.

Each to their own.

[4468]

Xulu

What on earth makes you think my (still FIRST!) wife and kids don't accompany me on these trips??

You don't seem to understand BA at all.

Of course in BA, one has the choice to move (frequently) backwards and forwards between SH and LH, and I have. So it's never been a problem for me.

Unlike the sandpit/Virgin etc. That where your future lies?

As you so rightly say: Each to their own, eh?

[wiggy]

Long haul certainly is a selfish lifestyle choice.

Whilst you're downroute alone again, deciding whether to go for a drink with a bunch of strangers, your kids are coming to hate you and your wife's off with the milkman.


Ouch...Ah well after over 25 years of Long Haul I'll balance that by saying that's not been my experience (except the socialising with a bunch of strangers, but never found that a major problem since after a few minutes they are not strangers anymore, are they?). We don't get milk delivered so that's possibly why I'm still with wife #1 (30 years plus) and in addition the kids are still talking to me.

Now if you insist on being home every night and drinking with the same bunch of guys in the same bar year in, year out I'd agree you'd best avoid long haul, personally that would bore me rigid.

Ultimately as 4468 said it's "each to their own".

[Cliff Secord]

I like long haul itself but would prefer not to be away weeks at a time so it does make me smile when people say they can't survive 3-4 nights away. It's not exactly the navy. I think people use the time away as an excuse to distance themselves if things aren't right. If you can't be away for 3-4 nights and then have some time off without splitting up with your partner then there's other things wrong.

[JW411]

Absence definitely makes the heart grow fonder.

[bex88]

On short haul you also spend 1/2/3 nights away from home at a time. Will you like BA, LH or SH? I don't know but it's a good job. If your happy where you are then stay there.

What will happen is change in BA and easy. Make your choice and go with it.

4468, SH pilots will be disappointed? Does that mean we won't be able to join our colleagues "at the table" for a minimum of 30 mins? :E

[cvg2iln]

Absence definitely makes the heart grow fonder.

Not necessarily true. I know several who felt great sadness upon leaving loved ones when they returned home to wives and families.

[Megaton]

Not necessarily true. I know several who felt great sadness upon leaving loved ones when they returned home to wives and families.

So, so true :-)

[Cliff Secord]

At risk of thread drift talking about this but it's an important subject. Depends how you're wired up amd your perception of being away. I'm away weeks. I find leaving painful but it's great when back. I know people (mentioned the navy) who go away to sea on tankers for months. When they get extended, it's for an extra month! They find it tough. A few days away long haul based out of home country is perfect to me. Keeps the spice of life going and I've done commuting which makes it seem nothing. I found on short haul I was damn ass tired, grouchy, bored of flying and the misses and I took our time together for granted anyway. I actually counted it up and even commuting on long haul I spend more "quality" time with friends and family than when back on short haul and on constant shift work.

[4468]

4468, SH pilots will be disappointed? Does that mean we won't be able to join our colleagues "at the table" for a minimum of 30 mins?

Of course it's only a rumour and could be well wide of the mark, but from the whisper I heard, what is proposed may come as something of a shock? Though it might certainly satisfy the expressed desire to just work harder on the days when one is actually at work!:rolleyes:

It remains to be seen whether the 'differential' with other departments relative 'Gap to market' is narrowed, retained, or widened!

We shall see soon enough.

[Full Left Rudder]

Regarding this rumoured introduction of a SH pay cap..... Surely they could only impose this willy nilly on new joiners to the company?

The incremental pay scales are contractural, including the current pay caps at LGW etc. Legally, I doubt that the company could just change them without agreement with the current workforce. For new joiners it would be different because they would sign up to the new deal, as per the 34 pay points scale.

[bex88]

BALPA can represent us as a working group and agree to changes without consulting with us. Not saying they would or have but on lesser issues this has happened.

As 4468 says, we will all have to wait for the company communication before we all look at it with stunned silence.

[Full Left Rudder]

Fair enough but can it agree to contractual changes? Ie. things contained within the Memorandum of Agreement??

I doubt it. I imagine BALPA can only agree to changes in BALPA agreements, such as the hotel agreement. Pilots contracts are between the individual pilot and the company. My understanding is that the MOA, whilst negotiated by BALPA, is contractual rather than simply a union agreement. Of course, I stand to be corrected.

I imagine that non-BALPA members would be particularly annoyed if their contract were to be changed without their consent. In fact, surely that can't be legal.

Before I give the wrong impression, I am am full BALPA member.

[WHYEYEMAN]

Ts and Cs can ONLY be changed with BALPA agreement. That's the whole idea.

[AIAA]

BA shorthaul is inching its way towards a 'gun against the head' moment. 'Take these new terms and conditions or your job / that part of the company won't exist'. When that happens BALPA can negotiate and/or accept on your behalf, and your contract can be re-written. (They would probably put it to a vote, but everyone will agree because there will be no real choice).
When that point comes you suddenly won't be worrying about all those minor scuffles you had about crew food, or whether a certain hotel is really up to scratch. The company will have you by the proverbials and you'll agree to what you thought you'd never agree to.
BA shorthaul requires a cost base similar to other operators. It's held out for a good while now, but the consequences of that fact are heading its way. It's a pity, and it'll be painful. The arse end of capitalism.
For those about to retire from this industry, what fabulous luck that you are stepping off the ship just at the right time. For those of us with a few years to run - things are only heading in one direction - more work for less than you expected.
Hey ho.

[no sponsor]

In all our contracts is a collective bargaining agreement which gives BACC the ability to negotiate and agree on our behalf. If you're not in the union, you are still subject to the agreements made.

[vacuum]

They must be desperate....


Wonder why they're not finding enough people?


First they were targeting the Monarch guys (320 rated), then the Cargolux guys (B747 rated). Who is their target with this one?

[Greygoose7]

To be considered for our current A320 CCQ shorthaul vacancies you will need: a current type rating on the Airbus A330 or A340, to be currently operating the aircraft (up to the point of your course start with British Airways) and a minimum of 500 hrs experience on type

What's the point of recruiting A330/340 pilots and then pay for their CCQ when they are loads of 320 rated pilots out there ??? I really don't get this...

Any thoughts ? Anyone ?

[Juan Tugoh]

There may well be lots of 320 guys out there but do they want to come to BA? Those that want to come, are they passing the selection?

[binsleepen]

Greygoose7,

See post 719

Regards

[bigdaviet]

Anyone else invited for an assessment having trouble making the date offered?

One week's notice and no other choice available.

[Smokie]

All very strange, I had an email alert from BA today asking me to apply for the 330/340 CCQ TO 320 ....... I'm 320/321 rated not 330/340.
So burning question is, are they still taking 320 guys as this email alert would indicate they are. Or is this another cockup on their website like the last one, which showed 320, 747-400, 757, 767, 777 and 787 but didn't allow you any further if you were only 320 rated......???? :ugh:

[777X]

In the 2008 and 2011 recruitment drives pretty much everyone I knew that could apply, did. This time round I can't name one person, but for understandable personal reasons... New commands, aged 35 plus, not living South or not wishing to return to the UK yet after the last industry fallout.

I just wonder where all the UK applicants will come from, given most feeder jet operators have gone. Not many experienced, current and available folk about when you exclude FR and EZY as per the job posting.

[hunter ace]

I am a 1000 hr M.......ch FO. I was rejected at the first day of tests..you know. The ones to see if you are good enough to be an airline pilot..the tests must be flawed cos my flying record is flawless above average throughout and passing all my check rides to captain standard.....are BA looking for managers/corporate types who could stall an Airbus into the Atlantic?
Perhaps the HR guys at BA have gone rogue or something !
I know many guys of first class quality both personally and as pilots who have been turned down.....what ARE they looking for?

[JaxofMarlow]

Bloody good question HA. You probably have just too many hours. I know of an SFO with same company with 4500 hours, most on 320, and also with an impeccable flying career who "failed" at the same hurdle. Yet CTC candidates with nothing under the belt get through.

[student88]

There have been captains with 10,000+ hours being invited back for an interview so its not because you've got too many hours.

[4Screwaircrew]

I've witnessed some very strange results from BA selections amongst the F.Os where I work, good solid people get rejected and others who scrapped along the bottom standards of both technical and non technical skills were taken. I believe that the BA system is as inaccurate a method of selection as any other airline that has allowed HR to interfere.

I haven't applied my self, so have no first hand knowledge of the tests and procedures but the stuff described by colleagues doesn't seem to me to be suitable for selecting aircrew.

[JaxofMarlow]

Really student88. 10k+ hr captains applying for FO role that required 200 hrs as advertised.

[Smokie]

So the 10000 hrs Captains were rejected first time around?
I was under the impression once you have been rejected you have to wait at Least 12 months before you can reapply.....was this the case ?
Did they have to re-sit ALL the tests plus interviews?

[Shaka Zulu]

I can think of numerous skippers with 10000hrs who got in during the recruitment drive in 2005/2006.
If I can say anything about the BA selection is that it matters not who you are or where you come from. Completely above board and no favours can be pulled.
It is what it is and it's served us well over the years, like it or not.

[JaxofMarlow]

Quite possibly Shaka Zulu, but not really relevant what happened 10 years ago. I was asking if it was really true that captains with other airlines with over 10000 hours are really applying for First Officer positions with BA where the experience requirement for the role is 200 hours.

I questioned, as have others, why very good experienced pilots with other airlines are rejected at a phase designed to test aptitude to be a pilot when others with no experience get through. If BA really do need 320 pilots then a lot are being passed over. I also wonder why the hours requirement dropped from 500 hrs earlier this year to 200 hrs this time. Is the answer because there were not enough good experienced pilots first time round or is because the process is silly and unnecessarily eliminates excellent candidates. Is it really feasible that Monarch pilots (for example) are not suitable to be pilots ?

It may be that the process is not open to corruption or discrimination and is even handed but it is also not the point.

[student88]

Really student88. 10k+ hr captains applying for FO role that required 200 hrs as advertised.

Yes, Captains from various UK airlines have been at the assessment days.

..invited to interview after successfully passing stage 1.

[4468]

I first applied to BA at the end of the eighties. At that time it was obvious the company were looking to recruit pilots. In the intervening period it has become apparent that pilot ability may have fallen quite far down the list of desirable qualities. I believe some years ago BA turned down the leader of the Red Arrows for lack of flying ability!:sad:

If BA are looking for managers with a flying licence, anyone wishing to get in should prepare themselves accordingly. Anyone not wishing to play that game probably isn't what BA are looking for anyway?

Apart from meeting the minimum criteria, I very much doubt BA will be too interested in additional experience? Perhaps it comes with too much baggage?

Anyone like to discuss the merits of monitored approaches, for example?:E

It must also take a certain type of personality for an experienced captain to happily spend a number of years back in the RHS with no possibility of 'upgrade'? Sitting next to relatively young, relatively inexperienced captains.

[JaxofMarlow]

Don't really disagree 4468. BA are looking for more than a pilot but then (rightly) so are many many others who don't decide on the strength of a computer game, a maths test and verbal reasoning whether an individual has these abilities. These tests are for assessing the aptitude of an individual to be a pilot and would be valid in assessing an individual before a company takes them on where there is no track record or evidential history of ability. For instance in the case of choosing individuals onto a cadet scheme. I wonder how many current BA pilots would actually pass these tests now - I bet not all ! In fact BA should do this to test the validity of the tests - spring it in a few with a weeks notice and see what happens.

[JaxofMarlow]

Oh, and yes, it must be a very desperate 10k hours captain who applies for a BA FO position. Maybe one who is now out of work.

[Wirbelsturm]

The problem is that the days of 'let's have a look around and if we like the cut of yer Jib we'll give you the job nod from the Chief Pilot' have long gone.

Day 1 is primarily sorted out by 'Da Computer' with little input from mere humans except in the group discussion exercises. Personally I do not know what score percentage these carry to the final pass/fail criteria (perhaps Lindsay could shed some light on it eh? ;-) ).

The bottom line means that irrelevant of whether you are Pontious the Pilot himself or the most charismatic man in the Fifedom if the computer say 'No' the HR mafia won't let you through to the next round.

Do I agree with such a system? Perhaps not, I was once offered a job after a walk around and a coffee but that was a long time ago in a world where lots of people knew who the others in the industry were. Perhaps understandably the HR department use the system as a filter to cut down on the workload at day 2. However the system DOES work for the company and the 'product' the system delivers is excellent. You must remember that a 10,000+ hour Captain from an airline will have the same process as a 3,000 hour military Captain and a 500 hour 'self improver'. It is a difficult juggling act.

Far from perfect but it's what the world is coming to and it seems what is necessary.

p.s. A few of my mates have failed BA interview, good guys all of them. It's just the way it happens on the day I'm afraid.

p.p.s I have it on good authority that human intervention is made in all cases and all day 1 assessments are checked over by the recruiting team before the final decision is made!

[Wirbelsturm]

WhyByFlier,

Whilst any recruitment process isn't infallible there is a certain degree of commonality and fairness that must be attributed to all applicants. Hence initial processes must be irrespective of experience and hours. If you apply as DEP it's a given that you have the licence and can fly the jet. Your performance on the day is what is going to get you through the process and that is a level field for all.

Like all of these processes I have been through it provides the employer with a 'snap shot' of who you are and what you are. How well the applicant puts that across is up to them but, as we've seen in the past many times, some people are better than others at projecting what they want others to see.

As far as 'odd-balls' go I'm afraid that you will find your percentage in all walks of life. That's a product of statistics. Also it's pointless stating a list of 'look what these guys have done' people as the company has no control over how these people develop over the years. Perhaps they displayed their 'persona' better at the time of recruitment, certainly those who have gone on to do, shall we say, less savory acts have historically been proven to be able to cover up their alter lives/ego's very well.

No process will be 'perfect' but if the recruitment system puts all applicants on a level playing field of having whatever experience they have to draw from and a licence then it is up to the applicant to prove themselves capable for employment, not the employer.

Can't really get much fairer than that.

As far as those leaving I believe it is due to the amount of time to command. I wish them well and good luck. Ironically the stagnation attributed to the increase in the compulsory retirement age is coming to an end and, with the return of the 'Little Red' slots to BA and the delivery of the 350 XWB, I feel we are about to see some more growth and movement at Heathrow. Potentially increased by the decision to keep and refit some of the 744's that were due to be retired. Perhaps they jumped too soon, perhaps not, personal circumstances will always dictate peoples decisions and I have always respected that. Not everyone wants the same thing.

[Sawadee]

WOW

Not often do I see something as bad as this from a poster - but this is unbelievably rude, potentially libellous, and of course I'm sure you asked your CP before posting this did you? And we're talking about your CP yes, where you've said already you work?

A quote from the chief pilot of a very large UK airline - 'if i'd know who the majority of people BA were taking from us, I'd have driven them to the process myself'.

Jeepers.

[4468]

WhyByFlier

You may be an Easy SFO. Yet you have an awful lot to say about BA's Direct Entry Pilot process, and BA pilots generally. (with some inaccurate understanding of how the company works) So I'll ask again, as I did a little earlier:
WBF, you seem to have a real axe to grind over BA. Why is that???

[Plastic787]

Sawadee I'm not sure you understand the definition of libellous. This would in fact be slander, but it's not anyway because no-one has been identified at any point, not the individuals concerned or the chief pilot or even the company. it's just an opinion, relax.

[Narrow Runway]

Heck, who cares if it is slander or libel?

I thought it was a great quote. I wish I'd thought of it myself.

Actually, I hope it is made up. It is a great line. Bravo, Sir!!

[JaxofMarlow]

Which bits of WBF post are not true then ?

Also, level playing fields are great when they are level. You don't think that a training company coaching their guys with the actual software is a level of support not available to others.

[Sawadee]

Jeepers

WBF I assume you'd be that rude to my face if we met?

I was posting a robust comment because I thought your repeating of that comment (true or untrue) was pretty poor show really. It's a horrible thing to say, and a horrible thing to repeat, in a world that's full of hatred, problems...

If you are saying my understanding of the word is wrong then mea culpa - but I did just look up the dictionary and it says (Collins):

2) any defamatory or unflattering representation or statement

So, my thought was just that's a rude thing to repeat. There was no need to say it. Also, you were extremely rude to me - am I not allowed to express an opinion without being shot down? Were you the name caller school bully? If so, bravo for growing out of it already.

It's the language only I don't like, not your position. I would agree that each airline may or may not be for an individual - BA/EZ/FR/EK whichever. BA isn't the white gloved government owned enterprise it once was, but that's life. If someone doesn't want to join, then that's their choice! EZ is a fine airline in my opinion - does what it says on the tin, very successful, and customers obviously like it! I would wish that cadets were offered a fairer start and package to begin with but that's just me. I would say that anyone working for EZ will have great training, good aircraft to fly, and a wide network to operate on. Relatively quick command on a fab aircraft, lots to like? I think some others would probably agree.

OK and one apology - I know you didn't identify your airline, or the CP concerned, and I was clearly baiting to try and get a response and for you to say more on the topic. That wasn't good form so I do apologise for that.

[Sawadee]

Horribly, horribly offensive, again:

that's why crap gets in

I can only assume (go on hit me with that ASS U ME thing again) that you are an awful bully, and a nasty person to know.

[Sawadee]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree - I'm just thinking that if you turn on the news and you see how much trouble there is out the world, we could perhaps do better than to describe colleagues (whether we like them or not, know them or not etc) as 'crap' - noun or adjective doesn't matter it's just not really something we should say.

I agree there is a spread of ability within any company, industry or profession. I might or might not be your cup of tea, and you mine, if we met without knowing each other's PPRuNe name. Hey, do you think we've flown together already, maybe had a beer somewhere?

Doesn't matter really. I accept you don't believe BA is well run, you are entitled to express that opinion. I don't think that Easy (or BA for that matter) is perfect (from past experience, and from experiences of my family where in one case my father was literally abandoned by the airline, and the ground agent at the desk lied to his face and refused to help him) but they are very limited experiences - millions every year are happy flying with them and thousands of pilots work there, probably most enjoy it?

Maybe back to the topic - BA is something people should only approach with eyes open sure! Think about the pros and cons of London basing, pay, seniority, the fact the airline will continue to adapt in the face of competition from every direction, what you want from your life/career etc. If it's not for you then no snags. I don't think we're having a p'ing contest nor should we - both BA and Easy offer interesting careers, just different.

Gotta go, thanks for the debate.

[speedrestriction]

A defamatory statement must be published before it is libel. In any case the CP statement is not anywhere near libel. In the case here the CP would have to write untruthfully to a third party that F/O Raspberry Titus Crumble is a dodgy pilot before there would be an offence.

[Wirbelsturm]

You don't think that a training company coaching their guys with the actual software is a level of support not available to others.

Sorry, my old brain can't quite comprehend the point you're trying to make there. Are you referring to the FPP cadets? If so, it's a different system. As for the computer based testing, it's available all over the web if you know where to look.

The entire recruitment process is 'trainable', same as flying training is 'trainable' same as your sim checks are 'trainable' you just have to achieve it in the manner and the time frame the employer requires. I don't see the point? Preparation is key to any interview. Do your homework, work out what the employee wants and then give it to them. What is your point? Everyone going into the process has the same set of tests levied against them. Either you pass it or don't. If you've practiced, read and brushed up on some relevant questions, well done. If not and you want to 'wing it' why not, give it a go. It is all your own choice.

BA is full of opportunities. They are not to every ones taste but they are there. Short Haul, Long Haul, Command, Management, Training etc. The recruitment process looks at you as a whole and the future possibility of you in Command or potentially in a management role. Those reading who have done a command course know what the lessons from group exercises brings. Nurture and guide to a resolution if needed, be firm when necessary and take on board and evaluate suggestions. Finally decide on a course of action based upon the information given. Sound familiar to the day job? Autocrats tend to be a pain in the neck to fly with whatever seat you happen to sit in.

BA short haul is going through pain at the moment as it tries to adjust as a business. Oddly enough not unlike the pain that Easy Jet went through around 2010. The difficulties are that BA is a much older company and the SH feeds the LH. It makes the cost base comparison difficult. It will be sorted out but it will take some give and take from both sides.

As a friend of mine from Easy Jet pointed out when I last saw him at LGW he was tired and frustrated and wondered occasionally if he could just once get off the jet and have a look around some of the places he was ferrying people to.

There are pluses and minuses on both sides of the coin. The simple fact is that the recruitment process is open and fair and produces a product that the training department, as the customer for recruitment, is happy with with very few failures.

If it's not for you then don't apply and leave the bandwidth for those who want to.

Nice to know I'm considered the 'C**p' now for not touching my face in a meeting! :E :} :ugh:

[kirungi1]

hunter ace, "....What ARE they looking for?" and you wouldn't better this!?

The recruitment process looks at you as a whole and the future possibility of you in Command or potentially in a management role.

IMHO, it's not enough any more for safety and process but also for the internal senses (feelings, love et la) that you bring; beyond the flight deck, and more!

Wirbelsturm, quality:ok:

[4468]

WhyByFlier
4468, because I should want to fly for my national airline but the fact it's so politically driven, managerially and intrinsically inept and arrogant makes me want bring it down a peg or two. To fly. To self serve. I also would like to counter people's immediate inclination to join. To offer an alternative opinion. To help with the DODAR. To play Devil's advocate.
Many of us within BA might largely agree.

At the end of the day, it's not faultless. However if anyone wishes to work for a British Employer, in Britain, with a superb choice of equipment and lifestyle alternatives, and a very competitive package, then BA will take some beating.

Some other employers in this global marketplace offer T&Cs to attract folks who accept the limited longevity/pressure/culture of such choices.

BA don't need to compensate for any of those things. I imagine that's maybe why recruitment windows are swamped with pilots from all over the world. Except perhaps those with golden handcuffs, who might rather be at home, but have chosen another course?

Each to their own, eh?

[Wirbelsturm]

It's all revisable, believe me. And that's why crap gets in and good guys don't.

Must be my doddery old way of interpreting things but it seems pretty clear cut to me as I appear to have 'got in'. Oh well, irrelevant.

I love your 'latency of error' quip. Recruitment works for Training. If Training weren't happy with the quality of product, as you seem to ascertain that you know better than the recruitment Manager does, then they would lean on 'Recruitment' don't you think?

As for the managers and military analogy, that I do find interesting. Are you ex-military? Can you back up your statement? I have a very good friend of mine is a long way up in military aviation command (flag rank) and, knowing him as well as I do, I would find exception with you statement. If the recruiters want to watch for the potential for management that's up to them. Your career path and choice through BA are your own once you've jumped through the hoops.

A good analogy is that I have a nice car that will quite easily do 150mph plus. It stops on a sixpence too (5p for the young 'uns). I would love to drive it at those speeds but the danged DFT have these ludicrous rules in place that I have to restrict myself to 70mph. I can blow hot air all over the DFT all day long and they won't listen it's their train set and they will implement what they want. It was my choice to by the vehicle knowing I would only be able to drive it at those speeds on the road. Sometimes it's a battle just not worth pursuing.

Enjoy Easyjet, I'll always give you a cheerful wave when I'm doing a Gatwick trip to the Caribbean, Maldives or Mauritius.

:ok:

[SinBin]

WBF. As a BA pilot I'm quite offended to be called 'crap' seeing as it was quite an effort to pass the selection a few years back. If you're not interested in becoming a DEP at BA why don't you just bugger off from this thread! You're energy and ramblings would be better served on the EasyJet private forums I think! You can then talk about your wonderful scheduling agreements, hotel agreements and what wonderful people you fly with at EasyJet. I seem to remember an awful lot of 'crap' as you call it at EZY.

[OBK!]

WhyByFlier

I hope I never fly with such a bitter person as yourself. I feel sorry for your easy colleagues. What are you doing here on a BA recruitment thread exactly?....how many BA guys are whinging on a easy recruitment thread do you think?

You didn't get in. Deal with it. :ugh::{

[TopBunk]

Wirbelsturm

It stops on a sixpence too (5p for the young 'uns).

I hate to rain on your parade, but sixpence = 2 1/2 p:p

[Wirbelsturm]

Flamed for a typo, oh the shame! :}

Ironically the redundancies in the military in the early 1990's were primarily politically led cost cutting exercises and the RAF/FAA/AAC were soft targets. Nothing to do with pilots who became managers, more to do with the constant head banging inter service rivalry and petty politics of MOD Whitehall. The farce that was the Sea Harrier/GR 9 withdrawal from service is a prime example. Run by accountants for accountants until they got the bill for operating out of Italy during Libya! But I digress.

I'm not deriving all the negatives I am merely trying to ascertain why you have such a vitriolic hatred for a system that you are neither part of nor have the power or position to influence.

It is what it is and seems to have served BA well. Former colleagues of mine have passed and enjoyed their time in BA and some have failed and taken it on the chin and progressed. That's it. Not worth all the heartbeats.

If you have a better system then I'm sure the manager Recruiting would be happy to hear it, he reads all this gumpf as far as I know.

[Wirbelsturm]

Ah but Topbunk, it's all about the size you know! ;)

[Flaperon75]

WBF.... Wow! And like the Murphy's.......


It's all revisable, believe me. And that's why crap gets in and good guys don't.


Assuming you see yourself as one of the 'good guys', at what stage in the process were you weadled out? Perhaps now is the time to crawl back under your rock and leave this thread to others for more constructive use!

[Wirbelsturm]

P.s. I'll wave back wirby when I've finished my Inverness and back 2 sector day by 1000, am heading home for a game of golf/ walk of the dog/ lunch with friends, beer with friends, meal with my family and sleep in my bed. Or of course if you're flying my family and me on our bucket and spade holiday! How proud I'll be that the creme de la creme BA pilot specifically waved at me with all his braid, his hat and name badge!


Horses for courses. Why the need to be so aggressive on a public forum? If you truly stand behind your views then air them without the vitriol and with constructive criticism, it gets you noticed and understood better. Enjoy the golf, I've always been crap at it, oh, and, generally, the wife always comes with me. ;)

Anyhoo, enough of this jolly banter, back onto the thread.......

[SinBin]

WBF, you can call me pompous, which I guess takes one to know one. You are obviously one who calls people 'chap':rolleyes:, but I honestly have no idea what you are on about! You serve no purpose to this thread, and are thus a troll. Hope you enjoy 4 sectors forever, one reason I left! I guess you are too good for the likes of BA! I'll go back to my nice pint in the centre of Rome!:ok:

[FANS]

We've got to remember that BA is not just employing UK pilots, and therefore I can't see a day when it can't recruit sufficient numbers.

Like others have said, it's their train set and recruitment is not perfect with the odd lemon passing through. The problem BA have is that people rarely leave, and hence it's not such an issue if people are seeing the grass is not greener and actually moving to the sandpit/back to ezy etc.

There is an increasing awareness that BA isn't perfect (and never has been), but that's life.

I'd also say the flightdeck (in BA and elsewhere) has a broader cross section than 20 years ago, but that is wholly unscientific.

[Threethirty]

Has anybody applied for the 330/340 CCQ and heard anything?

[FullyFullyReady]

For someone joining next year what's a realistic time period before one has enough seniority to comfortably commute to LHR/LGW on SH? Or is this becoming a thing of the past?

[alpha.charlie]

Also, if you were to start at LGW how difficult would it be to transfer to LHR and how long would this take?

Can LHR airbus crews bid for LGW work or is it fully covered?

Cheers

[4468]

FullyFullyReady

I wouldn't recommend commuting during your intro to BA. (Though I suppose you could?) So that would cover about the first 6-8 weeks. (Cheapish accommodation available) After that I can't see why you couldn't commute. It could work just as well for you as anyone senior. Though I think it's 6 months before you qualify for staff travel?? Also you might expect to do more standby duties than seniors, which run for 4 weeks, including 7 'fixed' days off, plus other 'ad hoc' days off during the 'working' 3 weeks, including a 2 day block. (Perhaps one Reserve month per year????)

alpha.charlie

In BA there is an Engagement Freeze of 5 years. Because this is based on qualifying training years, it is often less. During this period BA will do with you whatever suits them. Including for example, changing your fleet of joining!!:{

Since freezes are only type freezes, (not base freezes) I can't imagine any circumstance where you couldn't transfer to Heathrow Airbus after an absolute maximum of 5 years.
Of course by that time you will also have a valid bid to other BA fleets too. Success based on availability of course, but Airbus transfer LGW to LHR would involve NO additional freeze. It's essentially a freebee!

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Regarding commuting, whilst I understand it could be a bit of a ball ache (particularly early on), are there certain cities it'd be more difficult to commute from? Perhaps due to there already being a ton of crew commuting from that location, so making it less likely for more junior pilots to get a jumpseat if necessary?

4468, I think you're right about the 6 months prior to staff travel kicking in.

PS. I'm referring to short haul Airbus, either LHR or LGW.

[BASHLH]

According to a skipper I flew with 2 days ago who is on the Recruitment team BA are about to open up for Non Type Rated DEP. This has also been stated on the BALPA company forum this morning.

I don't have any details of Hours or Min MTOW Requirements but it's certainly looking positive for those wishing to apply who do not have a current BA type on their licence :ok:

Our Postings & Promotions Chap in BALPA has also stated last night that the Aspirational fleet moves are hopefully going to be published at the end of Oct. He has confirmed BA require close to 300 new pilots into the business in 2015.

Hopefully a bit of good news all round... Hope this helps,

[wiggy]

Mayday X 3

are there certain cities it'd be more difficult to commute from? Perhaps due to there already being a ton of crew commuting from that location, so making it less likely for more junior pilots to get a jumpseat if necessary?

Basic answer to the basic question is yes....., though if there's tonnes of flights as well as tonnes of crew there might not be a problem, it's the destinations with only 1/2/3 flights a day that can be a real PITA to commute to/from :hmm:.

If you are able to give some idea of where you are thinking of without being too specific (e.g. England, Scotland, Europe) I guess one of the "locals" who is familiar with their own bunfight would be able to be a bit more specific.

I can confirm it is 6 months before staff travel kicks in.

[ETOPS]

To set the scene.... BA are about to announce Pilot recruitment of Non-type rated applicants. The total requirement next year will be in the region of 300 new joiners made up of FPP cadets, type rated applicants and ex-mil managed path.

As both the FPP and ex-mil numbers would seem to add up to around 100 and there is clearly a shortage of the type rated candidates it would seem to be a great opportunity for others to try for a place.

Minimum qualifications etc will no doubt follow in due course..

Any takers?

[Smokie]

Type rated but missed the boat..... :{

[A320baby]

Smokie, For sure it will open again

[Climb360]

I'm guessing there is no need for people with hours and experience, just not on the BA fleet?

(B737 rated, unfrozen atpl, 2000hrs)

[MaydayMaydayMayday]

Wiggy, thanks for the info!

I pretty much envisaged living locally in the beginning, but with an eye on commuting from Glasgow or Edinburgh (although possibly somewhere warmer in the longer term! :} ).

(I'm not a DEP, but I'm assuming life will be pretty identical once online)

If any short haul commuters fancy dropping me a PM, I'd be grateful. :)

[wiggy]

AFAIK Glasgow/Edinburgh are very very much commuter land (both pilots and Cabin Crew) but the upside is the frequency of the flights

[4468]

Probably also worth saying that in BA it's easy to text the operating pilots, to request considereation should jumpseats be required on full flights.

It goes without saying that pilots tend to look after pilots first. My policy is 'first come, first served'. Nothing to do with seniority.

[thowmas]

Adding to the above; what about commuting from say, South of France (Toulouse/Nice/Marseille) - that would be my ultimate goal of working with BA and living down there. Is that something that would be feasible within the first few years of employment as a cadet on SH?

[Hiace]

Not sure on short haul, but it seems on long haul, depending on fleet, quite possible from what has been written here previously.

I Would be interested to hear about the effects of EASA FTL regs on Back to Back duty pairings...how will they affect commuting possibilities?

[bigdaviet]

Good luck to all who did the screening already.

Would any of you care to shed some light on the tests you did?

PM would be wonderful. Thanks very much!

PS. Before I get bashed on here I have already done much research, just want to check there are no new surprises. Thanks!

[no sponsor]

Climb360 - it is expected there will be recruitment directly onto the 744, 787 and 320, non type rated.

[Dihaz]

A PM on the screening for me will be much appreciated also...

Good luck to all going/gone through it...

[wiggy]

what about commuting from say, South of France (Toulouse/Nice/Marseille) - that would be my ultimate goal of working with BA and living down there. Is that something that would be feasible within the first few years of employment as a cadet on SH?

Blindingly obvious advice but you need to look at junior rosters and commuting flight frequencies/timings between LHR and your planned abode before you can work out whether it's feasible or not.

If you're on a tight block of days off you don't want to have to sit around at LHR for hours on end, or perhaps have to stay overnight, waiting for the next flight home - that's a major PITA....How would your proposed commute fit in with early starts/late finishes? FWIW some people are doing well out of running B&B's on the Bath Road....

It certainly is "do able" eventually as there are commuters (Pilots and Cabin Crew) from all of the places you named, but most especially Nice, which is the best served of the above three cities in terms of number of flights a day, but they're mainly on Long Haul. There's a handful of short haul commuters from one other of the above three, but FWIW they're senior and/or part timers.

[thowmas]

Thanks Wiggy - very useful indeed, great to know.
I can imagine some of those B&B's must love the commuting pilots!
I agree that it would make more sense as a SFO where one is at least more than likely to be guaranteed triplines - I suppose it would be tricky/tiring working a commute as a junior FO around a series of SH blindlines. I would really only ever envisage the commute working on LH but good to know that it is doable on the SH fleet too. Thanks for the input, appreciated.

[topofthegap]

If anyone that has been through the interview process recently could they please post their feedback or PM me that would be greatly appreciated, many thanks in advance. Best of luck to anyone that got the call! :ok:

[Max Angle]

it is expected there will be recruitment directly onto the 744, 787 and 320, non type rated. Word on the street is that its already happened, non type rated -400 courses offered and starting in early January.

[Harry palmer]

Possibility of Non Rated A320?????

[A737jet]

Hi all if anyone has been to the assessment lately could you be so kind to PM me some feedback, any info is really appreciated..

Best of luck to all.

[bigdaviet]

Has anyone asking for feedback heard anything yet?

I have not.

Surely there must be some reading this thread who have done the assessment and could provide some?

Maybe you could PM one of us and we can share it amongst ourselves.

Thanks and good luck to all involved!

[billybuds]

For all those after feedback, everything you need is in this thread and the old BA DEP master threads, not much has changed over the last 10 years.

[bigdaviet]

The very small amount of info that has appeared recently suggests it has changed, hence why we are asking.

[slowjet]

Bigdav ; Why are you getting so hot & bothered about feedback ? Can't you just be yourself and go along for the process without any pre-conceived ideas?
Selection is selection is selection. Where you have more applicants than places available, the selection techniques kick in and are wide and varied.

Way back, when dinosaurs roamed the planet earth, I applied to the RAF. The pre-selection booklet informed that it was much better (for the RAF, presumably) that candidates had no idea of the content of the procedure. That way, the RAF could, reliably predict, the likelihood of success in aircrew training. I went in raw and failed. I was told by a soooper bod with handlebar moustache that the tests revealed that I was unlikely to succeed in aircrew training WITHIN THE TIME SPECIFIED. That was the issue. Time constrained and money restrained.

I awaited two years, practiced all the tests that I could remember, grew a handlebar moustache, listened to the advice of a Wing Commander who lived up the road and was awarded a RAF Cranwell Cadetship at a time, when in fact, Cranwell was a real Acadamey and fostered the General List. But, I had cloned myself & wondered if I had fooled the Selection Board. I gave them what they wanted to see. It might still be likely that I would not succeed the more difficult training that was being offered than the original short service proposal. I thought.

I declined the offer and went on to a moderately successful airline career. I did see guys honing up on books available, like "How to pass the CX interview" ; "How to pass the EK interview" etc etc !

As a CX candidate myself, I turned in a phenomenal flight test (tristar) but the interview panel looked at the "A+" and commented ; "probably practised in your own time eh ?". I hadn't, wouldn't want to, couldn't afford to anyway and disliked the Ozzy Training Captain who kept looking at me in an uncomfortable way (kept winking for heaven's sake !). Shaved of the moustache and returned to Crawley !

So, point is, Boards' are aware that we practice, read all the books , hone up on Tech Quizes etc etc. It is now, therefore, very difficult to spot the raw candidate rather than the interview cheat.

I did get to serve on the Selection Board for two major carriers. The guys & Galls we really liked, thought that they presented themselves well, looked like they were trainable and would fit into our organizations comfortably, inevitably got the green light.

Stop looking for feedback, be yourself, be enthusiastic about the fantastic opportunity being presented & you will be of considerable interest to the Selectors. Good luck.

[cvg2iln]

Why are you getting so hot & bothered about feedback

Because the poster really does want the job.

The pre-selection booklet informed that it was much better (for the RAF, presumably) that candidates had no idea of the content of the procedure.

No doubt. Think it through for a minute. They would say that wouldn't they?

I was told by a soooper bod with handlebar moustache that the tests revealed that I was unlikely to succeed in aircrew training WITHIN THE TIME SPECIFIED.

You entered the RAF selection machine as raw meat and exited as chopped hamburger. The soooper bod with whiskers didn't have a clue - but he did conform to the required paradigm. Extra bushy was it?

As a CX candidate myself, I turned in a phenomenal flight test (tristar)

The L1011 was easy to fly, so flying it well isn't difficult. I also did well.

Interviewed CX in 1990 - said 'no thanks' ( HK - you must be joking) . The esteemed Australian person on the interview board was almost up to par ( he however didn't wink) although the not particularly manly Brit squadron leader was a constant irritant. (Would have winked if he was up to it but he couldn't pull a wink out of his bag(s) - the poor dear.)

Bottom line: do your homework and like all successful applicants pretend to be want the employer wants and comply with the immutable template.

Do not be yourself: be what you need to be for the job.

It's a game. Who and what you really are can emerge once employment is secured with the first paycheck happily deposited in the bank.

[234]

Since there is not a whole lot of feedback on this thread, I thought I'd share my experience.

First: while the process is now spread over three days, it didn't really change much compared to the previous years. Most of the information is available in all the other threads. During the wait between the application and the first invitation I read every single thread on the BA selection process. When I found a post worth remembering, I wrote down page and post number and I would come back to it and read it again. The Lowdown Part 1 thread has an enormous mount of feedback and some excellent advice worth remembering. Also, there are a few websites offering feedback, for example latestpilotjobs.com (all it does is take the feedback from this forum and put it all on a single page plus a few practice exercises).

Day One

On arrival at Waterside you are asked to leave your logbook and documents (all specified in the invitation e-mail) and given a name tag. You are then taken in a small room to check your height and then back to the lounge. Test time!

Verbal Reasoning

I don't remember exactly how much time and how many questions there were (I think 22 questions in 25 minutes, or close enough). The format is the same as always. The small articles are sometimes a bit hard to understand well, especially when they talk about complicated subjects. The good thing is that most of the times you can understand from the first line that an article will require too much thinking and you can therefore skip it altogether. I'll be honest, while you need to understand the articles, you also need a good dose of luck in getting the answer right since a lot of times you will be undecided between "cannot say" and one of the other two. It's doable though, and I've met plenty of non-native speakers who passed. The test is a bit harder than the practice ones in the files they send you. There are a few books and websites that you can use to prepare for it like assessmentday.co.uk and "Practice Psychometric Tests" by Andrea Shavick (again, found out about them in the previous threads and also helpful for Numerical Reasoning).

Numerical Reasoning

Again, I don't remember exactly how much time and questions you're presented with (about 25 questions in 12 minutes). The math itself is fairly easy, it's the time restriction that makes it harder. Again, if you can't figure a question out just move on and come back to it later if you have time. Personally, I answered about 21 questions, but I was sure of all of them and just skipped the ones I wasn't sure about right away. The practice questions on the files they send you are fairly accurate. Just a few examples that I remember of (numbers might be different):

- if you have a piece of metal 124mm long and you have to cut it in three equal length pieces. Every cut makes you lose 2mm. How long will each of the three pieces be?
- you have a rectangle with a perimeter of 48 and the ratio of the sides is 5:4. What is the length of the shortest side?
- you are given a shape and asked to calculate the area of part of it
- a few percentage questions like 20 is what percentage of 100

You'll find many more examples in the previous threads and some of the questions are still exactly the very same.

Flight Director/Shape test

Exactly the same as it was before. No difference whatsoever, so, again, I suggest you read the previous threads about it. You'll also find some websites where you can practice. My only suggestion is to do very small corrections with the joystick. It seemed to me during the practice session that the first 1/3 of joystick movement equals about 2/3 of the sensitivity. So, again, make small corrections and you'll be fine.

Second Capacity Test

This is a new test. It takes about 25 minutes and it goes something like this:

You are the FO on a flight and are required to keep track of the navigation, radio, some systems, TCAS, etc. You have various screens that you have to constantly navigate in order to complete all the tasks. The first screen is the navigation one. You have to insert in the FMS the next waypoint as given by ATC. You also have to change frequency when instructed (there will also be instructions to other airplanes to confuse you. Occasionally you'll get a climb or descent clearance and you'll have to calculate how long before a waypoint you have to start climbing or descending. The calculations are fairly easy, but can become a lot of work when you're really busy will all the rest. Most important of all (I think) is the TCAS. You'll see some traffic on the navigation screen and you'll have to fill the traffic diamond when the traffic is withing 1000ft of your altitude and then "remove the filling" once the traffic leaves that altitude window. If you don't comply, after a bit you'll get a TCAS RA.

While you do all of this you also have other tasks to complete on the other screens. Supposedly the place has some issues, and therefore every two minutes you have to go into a different screen and hit a button to register the system parameters for the engineers.

You also have two systems pages which occasionally require you attention, fuel and electrical. On the fuel page you'll have to switch between main pumps and stby pumps every couple of minutes to avoid losing fuel pressure. Just keep checking the parameters constantly (especially during low ATC workload periods) and you'll be fine. Occasionally you'll have either a Master Caution of Warning which require your attention in the electrical page. You get a small checklist on the screen which require you to switch between generators and different buses.

The whole exercise is not hard, but since it's quite long it's easy to lose concentration after a while, especially when the workload is really low. Just keep checking the TCAS and the systems and you'll do fine. Once you're done you'll have to wait for everyone else to finish. You'll get the BA magazine to scan through while you wait. I highly suggest taking that home with you as it has a lot of updated info on the company which might be useful during the interview. If it went well, you'll probably get the invitation to the second assessment a few hours after leaving Waterside, but don't be afraid if you don't hear from them for a few days.

Day Two

Same interview and group exercise as the previous years. The interview is with a pilot and an HR person. The questions are pretty much the same as always:

- why do you want to leave your job to join BA?
- tell me about you career progression
- TMAAT...

Personally, I wrote down every single question I found in the various threads and for each one I wrote down a story with the STAR format. This forced me to think about the situations I've found myself in so I didn't have to think about them during the interview. If you find it useful, it might be worth spending a few minutes reading about how to behave during an interview (body language, etc).

You will then team up with three other applicants for the group exercise. The scenarios are exactly the same as the previous years.

Between assessments you'll have a very informal Q&A lunch with some BA pilots. They'll give you a small rundown of the BA offer and you'll be able to ask questions. The whole thing was very relaxed and I found them to be very honest about the state of things withing the airline, especially about the bad.

They tell you they'll give you the outcome of the assessment withing ten days. I've heard of people getting the outcome as soon as the day after.

Day Three

Same profile as before. You'll get a PDF with a brief explanation on the 747 with some pitch and power settings. They work very well, so I suggest you learn them very well. I made a table in MS Word and printed it so that I could go through them quicker. You'll also get the checklist that you'll use during the assessment, familiarize yourself with it. You'll find more feedback in the other threads (as usual). As others have pointed out, it's more about CRM and decision making than your flying skills. You might get some calculation questions during you PF sector, something like ETA to a fix or time to reach the assigned altitude. I spoke with some friends who also went through the process and none were perfect in the aircraft handling. I've personally heard about people entering the hold 60kts fast, arriving high and fast on the ILS, not maintaining the assigned altitude by as much as 500ft, and more. All of them passed. You are allowed to use your partner for a lot of tasks including taking control while setting up for the approach. Help each other as much as possible, show good CRM and you'll both be fine. From what I understand, they also look at how your handling skills progress during the exercise (whether you improve and how much).

You'll generally have an answer within a week.

That's all I can remember. It's been a few months since my assessment, so I apologize if I missed something. Again, and I can't stress this enough, the process is very similar to what it was a few years back. All the information is easily found on the other threads and I highly suggest you take the time to go through them. The only difference is the second capacity test during day one, the rest is exactly the same. Do your research, prepare well for every assessment, and you'll be fine. Read the job description, it tells you exactly what they're looking for during the process.

I hope this helps!!!

[bigdaviet]

234,

Thanks very much for confirming what has changed and what is still the same.

I have also trawled the old threads taking out useful info so I will use that as well.

Thanks again.

[Threethirty]

Yep thanks very much, great stuff.

[slowjet]

cvg2iln : Just spilled me coffee, again. Splendid post and started me off in good cheer today. Cheers. Oh & blimey, talk about feedback ; look at the post that followed yours. Thinking of applying myself ! Might have to change my name to Nigel, though !

[Stocious]

Commuting as a junior bod would be really tough IMO. You'd have to budget well for flights and B&Bs, and spend a lot of time commuting or sitting around. Even once you do get staff travel after 6 months, a standby ticket on a BA domestic is roughly £50 each way.

If it were me, I'd seriously consider a move to somewhere nearby!

[Northern Monkey]

Non typed rated recruitment open now.

[Blantoon]

They really are struggling it seems.

[Wirbelsturm]

They really are struggling it seems.

Good, perhaps it might send a strong message to those senior managers in the flight Ops department who seem to think that BA is still an enticing option despite their hatchet job on conditions and workloads.

[JaxofMarlow]

despite their hatchet job on conditions and workloads.

Just as likely to be the hatchet job they do on excellent experienced pilots in the selection process.

[StopStart]

Non typed rated recruitment open now.

Care to post a link old chap? Can't find it on the website.

[4468]

Blantoon
They really are struggling it seems.
Struggling to find what they are looking for perhaps?

Is that what you mean?

[binsleepen]

Link here

http://www.britishairways.com/careers/vacancy_search_results.shtml?

To be considered for our current vacancies you will need:


To hold a current type rating and a minimum of 500 hours experience on an aircraft that satisfies CAP 804 FCL.730.A - Zero Flight Time Training course requirement. We would be particularly interested in hearing from candidates operating the A320/747/757/767/777/787. Training, command, or other longhaul experience would be advantageous but is not required
Preference will be given to candidates who hold an ATPL(A), have a minimum of 2000 hours total flight time, and who are operating jet transport category aircraft with MTOM greater than 25 tonnes or multi-crew turboprop transport aircraft/military equivalent with MTOM greater than 50 tonnes
Candidates applying from BA CityFlyer should apply through the internal eJobscan system
Successful candidates will be entered into our hold pool, from which an offer onto any British Airways fleet may be made: the A320 continues to be the principle recruiting fleet in British Airways
Any candidate who was formerly hold pooled, but not offered a position, is invited to contact us directly at [email protected] to arrange prioritised screening in this recruitment campaign

Regards

[Harry palmer]

Anyone else having issues with the application? Each time after an age of creating an answer for question one of the 300 word jobs I select save and it logs me out back to the vacancy search with out anything saved. Log back in and all deleted!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[0hunter0]

The site will automatically log you out after a period of being sat idle. Best to write your response in word or pages then copy and paste it into the application window. Good luck

[highfive]

Do we really believe that " training, command and long haul experience" would really be an advantage ? After stating this, they then say you'll more than likly be sent to coventry on the A320.
I've got plenty of all three, but doubt in my mid 40 s I'd have a high chance of passing the selection detailed above.

I can see it now , being asked by some stuffy HR sycophant "as a mature pilot, why the #^^% would we hire you when we can have some cheap Easy meat who is 20 yrs your junior? "


FWIW, do they still (unofficially) abide by the must be under 49 at age at application or have they taken older candidates? With retirement @ 65 now I suspect they can't blatentally play the ageist card .

[wiggy]

I can see it now , being asked by some stuffy HR sycophant "as a mature pilot, why the #^^% would we hire you when we can have some cheap Easy meat who is 20 yrs your junior? "


"Because it's highly unlikely "I" will be in the company long enough to achieve the higher paypoints, and therefore "I" will be helping solve the problem of incremental drift"......

[Wirbelsturm]

As to the long haul, training and command advantages there is a serious training backlog heading BA's way with the next seasons schedule already looking very, very busy.

As has been discussed before BA have and will change new entrant aircraft types dependant upon experience and necessity. I have a feeling that there will be a few DEP's directed toward the 744 as the senior bidders move across to either the 777 or the 787.

The X350 is also coming which will be an expansion fleet plus there has been alot of company traffic between London and Seattle. Read into that what you will.

BA need the flight crews, hopefully a less than enthusiastic reception to the current package might help in at least slowing if not halting the slide in T's & C's that the cheap labour markets seem to be demanding.

[no sponsor]

i would say it would be extremely unlikely in the world of BA that there would be any question relating to your age. Judging by some of the FPPs I have seen, age has not been a factor there either.

[SinBin]

Couldn't keep away, could you, WBF? Yet another fantastically ignorant, bitter post!

[Megaton]

Especially when BA are only offering unused passenger sandwiches and a bag of crisps for lunch : p

What a load of tosh. Look, you might not fancy BA, but why poison the thread with your nonsense?

[hunterboy]

Harry Palmer, are you being timed out of your application form? Many of BA's systems are like this. it pays to write out your answer beforehand, and then cut and paste it when logged in. HTH.

[Stocious]

How do you know the FPP entrants from the non-FPP chaps WBF? Most of the bottom of the list seem to be fairly active types - one I spoke to recently when changing A/C was planning to cycle to Loch Lomond on a Glasgow standover!

Judging by recent comms, I'd like to hope that the SH review might not be as painful as you seem to want it to be.

[Wirbelsturm]

Judging by recent comms, I'd like to hope that the SH review might not be as painful as you seem to want it to be.

Concur with that sentiment. It seems that the requirements of the company may have already been met.

Especially when BA are only offering unused passenger sandwiches and a bag of crisps for lunch : p

What drivel. I understand you have some sort of axe to grind, why I don't know, but at least attempt to be factual. Ironically one of the longer running initiatives run by BA and BALPA is to increase the choice, content and nutritional value of the crew meals. Some are actually getting quite good. But you would know that from the cockpit of a different jet in a different company.

[SinBin]

Is this so that you can justify to your few mates down the pub as to why you failed selection? You must be just great!

[WhyByFlier]

I'll reiterate, I have failed no part of BA's selection. Weren't you an ex BMI pilot, who came to easy briefly and then went to BMI again, bypassing the selection into BA? Nevertheless, passing BA's selection doesn't make you 'great'. Nor does not being selected make anyone not 'great'.

[SinBin]

Er no! Left Bmi, went to easy, left easy, went to BA, well and truly passed selection:D

So why so bitter? You're a psychologists dream!

[Wirbelsturm]

There are no FACTS as you state yet as the SHBR has not been formally announced. However, the community is being led to believe that, from a flight ops department perspective, we have covered all requirements thus 'no change'. That is neither confirmed nor factual yet, purely conjecture from another place.

WBF, are you just a disgruntled ex military pilot who believes they are owed a job by a company due to their previous service? I only ask as I am also ex-military and I have never held those views neither have I ever felt I needed to belittle any companies processes. If you want to have a target then target the muppets in RAF command who covered the military dispensation agreements from National to JAR procedures and screwed everyone in the military with their ambivalence and incompetence. It's all irrelevant to me as I left long before then with national licences in hand.

Personally I don't give a stuff what you think of BA, you aren't in it so who cares. Leave the thread to those who are interested in joining the company and wish to gain some sort of 'educated' insight before deciding which way to decide.

The thought of XX years of short haul earlies and lates, again and again and again fills me with dread but you seem to like it so enjoy. I'm off Christmas shopping in the States. :ok:

[WhyByFlier]

Psychologist's you mean? I just don't like the business, the product, the arrogance, the left wing BA mantra, many of the people they've surprisingly taken or the lemming-like way these p2F types blindly dream of a BA career based upon cliched perception. I also resent a company like BA being our flag carrier. That compounded by the fact I DO like many turned away, have seen many who were turned away go on to become excellent captains and TREs and comments like your 'you must be great' following on from you're assumption that I didn't get in. You're basing your cack on the regulated past. From George Patton:

For over a thousand years Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of triumph, a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeteers, musicians and strange animals from conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conquerors rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children robed in white stood with him in the chariot or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror holding a golden crown and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting.

As I've said, I'm out. Toodle pip!

[Wirbelsturm]

Psychologist's you mean? I just don't like the business, the product, the arrogance, the left wing BA mantra, many of the people they've surprisingly taken or the lemming-like way these p2F types blindly dream of a BA career based upon cliched perception. I also resent a company like BA being our flag carrier. That compounded by the fact I DO like many turned away, have seen many who were turned away go on to become excellent captains and TREs and comments like your 'you must be great' following on from you're assumption that I didn't get in. You're basing your cack on the regulated past. From George Patton:

You've aired your opinion based on what you freely admit is an 'outside' view. Who ever said that those turned away aren't any good? Perhaps they just didn't perform as they wanted/expected to. Perhaps the competition on the day was of a very high standard. Perhaps they just didn't achieve the scores they needed. Who knows. In my experience people who fail an interview don't generally want to discuss it on an open forum.

I have many friends and colleagues flying for other companies who didn't pass the BA selection. That doesn't make them 'second grade' and I would challenge anyone who claimed such. It also doesn't mean they are any worse people for not passing a selection process. They are all top level aviators and people who just didn't meet the requirements of the process on that specific day. Most freely admit to making a cock-up (hmm it's edited my word due to the profanity filter!) of something along the way. That's life.

What is your 'cliched' perception? The fact that people want to work for a company is testament to the fact that the company can still attract people. If they want to work for BA then they can find out about the company easily enough warts and all and make their decision based on their perceptions not the perceptions of someone like yourself. As much as you believe your position. BA is an excellent employer with huge opportunities a fantastic route structure and many different aircraft types to train on. The company look after you exceptionally well when down route. There are challenges but that can be said for every company in the industry and chatting to Air France, Lufthansa, Al Italia and various US company pilots down route we are all facing the same challenges.

As far as being the flag carrier, tough, nobody cares if you don't like it. You are a tiny cog in a big machine industry and your opinion on matters like who is and isn't the 'Flag Carrier' are irrelevant in the big scheme of things. Just like mine.

In respect to the 'left wing mantra' where did you drag that old cliche up from? I haven't seen anything like that since the Cabin Crew strike from BASSA and look what happened to them. Ironically it was the entire company working together that defeated the left wing mantra that was Duncan Holley and his braying mob. Perhaps your views are a little outdated?

Enjoy the Orange, I know many of my friends do.

[bigdaviet]

WBF can you please create another thread to discuss your 'issues,' questions and personal arguments.

Keep this one on topic.

[Flying Wild]

Link here

http://www.britishairways.com/careers/vacancy_search_results.shtml?

To be considered for our current vacancies you will need:


To hold a current type rating and a minimum of 500 hours experience on an aircraft that satisfies CAP 804 FCL.730.A - Zero Flight Time Training course requirement. We would be particularly interested in hearing from candidates operating the A320/747/757/767/777/787. Training, command, or other longhaul experience would be advantageous but is not required

Regards

Are they having issues finding people for these adverts to be cropping up so often? I've got an idea - how about they include the 737. That still allows for ZFTT.

[alpha.charlie]

CAP 804 FCL.730.A

Talks about having a rating on a CS-25 turbo jet or turbo prop with MTOW of more then 10 tonnes and 19 pax.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but if you have any type rating on a plane meeting the above then you're free to apply?

[Flying Wild]

Hmmm, reading not one of my strong points it would seem :ugh:

Guess I was focussing on the types they listed.

[binsleepen]

Flying wild,

RT(F)Q. or in this case the advert. This is for NTR pilots. So all of you who have been posting for the last 3-4 months asking when will they open up recruitment for those with an XXXX type rating, now is your chance. As long as you meet the requirements of FCL.730.A. For those of you unable to carry out a basic internet search... see below.

FCL.730.A

Specific requirements for pilots undertaking a zero flight time
type rating (ZFTT) course – aeroplanes

(a) A pilot undertaking instruction at a ZFTT course shall have completed, on a multi-
pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent
airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum
certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger
seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least:

(1) if an FFS qualified to level CG, C or interim C is used during the course, 1500
hours flight time or 250 route sectors;

(2) if an FFS qualified to level DG or D is used during the course, 500 hours flight
time or 100 route sectors.

(b) When a pilot is changing from a turbo-prop to a turbo-jet aeroplane or from a turbo-
jet to a turbo-prop aeroplane, additional simulator training shall be required.


regards to all and best of luck.


PS remember to read all the instructions prior to any of the tests:ok:

[jamestkirk]

how many are they looking for

what are they looking for

is it now or hold pool

whats your favourite colour

[tubby linton]

Whatever they are looking for, the simulator block at Cranebank is a squalid building. The simulator I used had poor visuals and no sound for important things such as Tcas warnings or the gear retracting or extending.(Sound had been paid for!).
One of the toilets in the building had a bucket to catch urine that was leaking from one of the urinals and the other toilet had an aroma worse tnan a beachfront hole in tne ground in the sub-continent. Not exactly what you would expect from the World's favourite.

[jamestkirk]

That is everything i am looking for. :)

[Stocious]

Presumably they used that sim because it didn't need sound?

Shame you weren't in the new sim hall with the nice shiny new sims. It's very nice indeed.

[wiggy]

the simulator block at Cranebank is a squalid building.

Trust us, we know, we know.................I think that bucket was there when I did my assessment in 198X and I've done my bit to fill it up every time I visit the place...:ooh:

Anyhow you might be pleased to know that as Stocious has pointed out the ground training hardware (sims, SEP rigs, the lot) is in the process of moving to a brand new home inside one of the refurbished hangars at the old base area adjacent to Hatton Cross...I've not been over there but I gather it's all jolly spiffing....:8 and a great improvement.

Here's a link to an article about it all in a publication worthy of HIGNFY :ok: :cool:

ISG lands contract to build BA flight simulator centre ? Construction Enquirer (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2013/06/10/isg-lands-contract-to-build-ba-flight-simulator-centre/)

I'm not sure whether the bucket will get to move or not...the contract for that is probably still out to tender...

[tubby linton]

I was just surprised that a normal looking bucket with all the appropriate qualifications to catch and contain waste had passed the selection to be there!

[jamestkirk]

maybe the bucket was integrated into the toilet and not a modular unit.

[Smokie]

What! It is not Carbon fibre with Titanium trimmings........???

[Sygyzy]

The link provided to the new sim building project by ISG shows a completion date of 'Spring 2014'. Is that a typo and should the correct date be 2041?

As shown by the bucket things never move quickly in BA.

[highfive]

I read on PPJN that DEFO will start on - £52000 plus allowances ? Really ?
Thats a take home of £3100 per month plus some allowances. Take Home.
Unbelevable . Its horrible and is less than 20 years ago lol

I was misguided and was under the impression that a long haul FO would be on upwards 80k plus gross ?

Oh well, I can be happy to stay put & not to waste my time applying with salaries like that. For rich kid's kids only.

[Nelson15]

Words fail me...

[bex88]

:D and you believed the stories of 80k plus starting salary, one out then four days off before flying home. Do that three times a month and we will have your car valet done for your return. Next you will be asking for the cheese board.

Reality check....yes 52k after allowances 63-64k. 18-21 days a month flying. Mainly 3 sector days, some four as well and at heathrow that's asking.

If you expect more money may I suggest you join as a CSD on world wide :}

[bex88]

Umm it's ba the most junior of said group gets to remove the bucket of piss.

[Tomo89]

Hi all,

Quick question. I would hate to let this rare NTR opportunity pass me by, given that the last time BA opened up for non Airbus/Boeing guys and girls was years and years ago. Now I appreciate I'm at the bottom of the pile when it comes to 'preferred' criteria, I have approx 430hrs on jets. By the end of next month I expect to have near enough 500hrs thus fulfilling the minimum requirements, is it worth/reasonable applying now? If the 500hrs was arbitrarily plucked out of the air then I would understand that they are the requirements they have laid down and that's that. However, BA have made it clear that the 500hrs is there to satisfy the zero hours flight time training requirement, so if I was jammy enough to be offered a job with them, by the time I would start my training there would be no issues as I'm sure after swimming in the hold pool for a while I'd be well on my way to 1000+hrs. Only aspect that makes me uncomfortable is in the preliminary questions it asks if you have the 500hrs and at this moment in time I don't and they make the point of answering honestly blah blah...sorry that wasn't really a quick question as originally stated, but a penny for your thoughts good people? Thanks.

[SkyRocket10]

Only aspect that makes me uncomfortable is in the preliminary questions it asks if you have the 500hrs and at this moment in time I don't and they make the point of answering honestly blah blah.

I think you have answered your own question, however for the sake of 4wks I would definitely suggest waiting. Have the questions drafted and hit the submit button as soon as you surpass the 500hrs. For reference BA will take your logbook on any selection day.

[highfive]

Bex, oh yes it was like this before, well not quite that cushy , but a reasonable lifestyle.

So a take home pay of say £3500 for a long haul 777 FO. BA was the epitomy of British aviation. A place where all would aspire to work, rest n play. If you didnt get in,and were capable you could join a second tier airline such as Caledonian, Britannia . Failing this , then go east young man, and work for CX$$$

BA is a facade. Fly to serve. But it all boils down to lifestlye. No money no honey. The average British home price is £272000. On a takehome of £3100 and to save a deposit of 20% and come up with the £2000 a month to service the mortgage a month will leave you broke. There fore its rental only.Or a park home with granny.

If the asipring BA pilot, the best of the best ( after selection) cannot buy an average joe bloggs terrace, then whats it all come to?

And still there must be 100s clambering over each other desperate to sign up.
27 years layer, you make the top FO scale, taking home 6k a month. what a load of crok.

The only people they really want are those who have property, no mortgage, and a ton of cash in the bank. but then i aint working for40k a year . Good luck though Bex88, you reap what you sow. .

[Juan Tugoh]

I guess highfive and those that are like minded won't be joining BA, I bet BA are shaking in their boots as to the prospect of an imminent recruitment crisis and will upping the salary scales immediately. :ugh::ugh:

It's all a choice no-one is being forced to work for BA.

[Tomo89]

Sky Rocket, applications close in under a fortnight so if I waited I'll miss the boat! Any idea typically how long it takes to process applications and invite you to a selection day?

[wiggy]

highfive

The average British home price is £272000. On a takehome of £3100 and to save a deposit of 20% and come up with the £2000 a month to service the mortgage a month will leave you broke.



When I joined BA quite a few years back joined the Senior chaps tended to live in "nice" houses within 10 -20 miles of LHR (e.g. Henley, Windsor). In the last few months I've flown with more then one co-pilot s who has expressed doubts they'll ever be able to buy anything larger than a rabbit hutch anywhere desirable within one or two hours drive of London. Whilst that probably says as much about the bizarre state of the south east UK housing market than it does about UK pilot's T&C's it's still a fact that does need to be considered by anyone thinking they can easily move house and home from the regions or abroad to be within easy reach of LHR.

[Wirbelsturm]

Just to bring the house price versus income argument into perspective, I was looking at 4/5 bed terrace houses in Kew Gardens the other month.

Asking price for a terrace house ....... £1.25m to £1.5m.

I would suggest that any PAYE employee on a company starting income would 'struggle' to keep up with housing prices in the South East unless they are already on the ladder.

If you don't want to work in the SE then apply elsewhere. As always it's your choice.

[SetStandard]

BA is a facade. Fly to serve. But it all boils down to lifestlye. No money no honey. The average British home price is £272000. On a takehome of £3100 and to save a deposit of 20% and come up with the £2000 a month to service the mortgage a month will leave you broke. There fore its rental only.Or a park home with granny.

highfive, no wonder you turn your nose up at £52k starting. You need to go and see a decent mortgage broker, you are being well and truly taken advantage of. A 90% mortgage on an average house (£272,000) will have monthly repayments of around £1200 - £1300. Yes, saving for a deposit is difficult, but that is true of any profession in todays world in the south east of England. If you don't like that, go into politics, become an MP and change it.

BA isn't everyones cup of tea; no one on here has any problems with that. I work for BA and Im not the company biggest fan. Some of the negativity however, over that last few pages astounds me. BA are taking on low hour pilots and paying them £52k basic; have you seen whats happened in Monarch recently?

Get in the real world. The "old" world died along time ago.

[darkroomsource]

SetStandard +1

£52k needs to be put into perspective:

84% of the population of England earn less than 50k
In London, the average income is £27,868
Income in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom)

It's about the same pay as a Dentist (7 years of Uni plus 2 years of internship, and the average for ALL dentists, not just those with NO experience, is 53k)
UK average salary is £26,500 but figures reveal huge pay gap between rich and poor - official earnings list - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-average-salary-26500-figures-3002995)

[shaftsburn]

I was hoping for some advice from chaps already in BA, as I'm really in two minds on applying. I have zero interest in long haul, so what are the prospects for a long term career on BA short haul? How many block/duty hours in a typical month, how many nights away, how many days off per month, or anything else that might be pertinent? Also looking for more detail on winter leave available (my other business interests get too busy in Winter to continue flying full-time). I know there's a lot of info posted here, but it would be great if someone could sum it up.

[binsleepen]

Of course you don't have to live in Windsor or Kew. There are many areas North and east of LHR where you can get a decent 3 bed semi for 120K or a 4 bed detached for 200K and have a commute of only 70 mins or less.

The call out time on Stby is 120 mins so that gives quite a large radius in which to find somewhere suitable. With the recruitment rate at the moment you won't be on the bottom of the 320 list for long so will be able to bid for tours. This will reduce commutes to 5-6 a month.

[kirungi1]

Sky Rocket, applications close in under a fortnight so if I waited I'll miss the boat! Any idea typically how long it takes to process applications and invite you to a selection day?

I would allow anything from 1 to 2 weeks and sometimes more after submission, as previously posted in this thread.
Your circumstances are manageable and I would rather that half full glass ;)

[Widebdy]

There is a lot of fixating on the lowest pay point which I don't really understand.

In my opinion looking solely from a monetary point of view, attaining a quick command and potential LTC position in Easyjet etc is going to be lucrative in the short term. My own quick ballpark maths, which may be incorrect, gives me an age of 31 as the point where it is not worth joining BA, from a monetary point of view.

If I were lucky enough to join BA I would certainly lose a considerable amount of cash over the next 10 years, but I should in time catch up. There are plenty of young pilots that don't want to endure the pain for the longer term gain because they do not wish to sacrifice their current cash-flow and lifestyle, a perfectly valid outlook. Each to their own. For me, the decision to apply to BA rests with lifestyle and longterm gain.

Comparing apples with apples I believe KLM and Aer Lingus offer a similar starting salary to BA? I have friends who joined SAS recently who describe living on their pay point one as "challenging". The decision to join these career airlines is not about starting salary, for me at least.

[Harry palmer]

I for one would love a crack at the selection, I have applied and would very much like to work for them.

Good luck to all applying. :ok:

[kirungi1]

Good stuff :ok: and good luck Harry.

[oscar2012]

Out of curiosity, anyone here previously hold-pooled and emailed the recruitment team directly, as advertised, had a response yet?

[Enzo999]

Does anyone know why last month the minimum hours were dropped to 200 and now they are back to 500?

[bex88]

non type rated

[FlyingStone]

How likely is for an expat (albeit with ELP 6) to get a job with BA?

[hunterboy]

As long as you have the right to live and work in the EU, you can work for BA.

[Airbus Unplugged]

In a behind closed doors deal which we were informed of lastnight, BALPA and BA have torn up Bidline for Shorthaul.

You will be working to EASA limits from Jan 1st.

In a comprehensive betrayal of its members, the Union has looked after its mates in longhaul, and thrown the rest of us to the dogs.

[McNugget]

Pardon my ignorance, but what protections does Bidline provide to crew, over EASA FTLs?

[Juan Tugoh]

It always was the BA Longhaul Pilots Association.

[wiggy]

Airbus

....Just come over from this AM's debate on the BA Balpa Forum by any chance?


In a behind closed doors deal which we were informed of lastnight, BALPA and BA have torn up Bidline for Shorthaul.

You will be working to EASA limits from Jan 1st.

For completeness this what the BALPA newsletter I got actually said on that subject:

Shorthaul FDP tables are to be replaced with the FDP limits from EASA FTLs (EASA FTLs will not be introduced by BA until 1st March 2016 and until then, the current Scheme limits will continue to apply).

FWIW yes, I feel the deal is pants, most especially given the lack of movement in efficiencies from other areas of the workforce....and yes, I know "we" (as in Long Haul) "will be next".

As an aside beyond the heated rhetoric I really feel the BACC has a serious communications problem......personalities and their position in the scheme of things on the line is definitely getting in the way of any chance of a reasoned debate.

[Juan Tugoh]

Wiggy I agree, until the current chairman changes, and a less confrontational, my way or the highway character takes over, the BACC will have a problem with it's comms.

[AIAA]

Airbus Unplugged - it's not BALPA or BA that have thrown you to the dogs, it's the market. We live in a capitalist system. BA short haul needs a lower cost base to remain competitive, turn a profit and ultimately - survive. This is derived through 'efficiencies'. Bid line is not the most efficient way of rostering your human resources.
It's a cruel world. But don't worry, BA long haul will have to face it's own day of reckoning in the near / medium future. Wait for Norwegian or similar to crack an acceptable cheap transatlantic service and everyone will have to follow.
Everything has changed. It's horrible for all our T and Cs, but there's only one way this is going.
Don't go blaming BALPA or even the company. Our country's / the world's economic model is set up to make this happen. Customers will chose the lowest cost acceptable product they can find - and businesses must provide what is wanted or go under.
Sitting as a BA employee it would be easy to feel slightly immune / protected / outside the cut throat nasty world of cheap low cost no frills airlines. As Morrisons, Sainsbury's and Tesco's have found out - you're not. Aldi and Lidl are coming for you. I'm afraid BA is not Fortnum and Masons or Harrods. At best it's Waitrose - and even they have to have a competitive cost base, comparative pay and staffing.
It would also be easy to think BA just needs a little tweak here and there. Minor adjustments to bid line etc. Willy Walsh knows this isn't the case and that wholesale reform is required. Terrible, but true.
Most BA pilots know that the market and reality is barking at the door. Those close to retirement might just walk out the door and not face the new era. However, for those younger, and those contemplating joining, be in no doubt, the last hiding place from the harsher airline world is going to disappear.
I really wish it was otherwise.

[Wirbelsturm]

The 'we've all been shafted on SH and you're alright on LH' argument doesn't really help anyone.

Excepting those who are already in the LHS on LH and will, probably, remain in that position the natural 'flow' to LHS LH is through LHS SH.

Therefore, for the majority of pilots in BA who aim for LHS LH they will have to accept the new SH regulations. Ironically these regulations would have become law anyway in 2016. What is coming in is increasing the productivity for the SH crews whilst at work without increasing the number of days at work.

Nothing is ideal, we would all like to go back to the heady days of the 60's and 70's where one or two trips a month was the norm. It isn't going to happen unfortunately.

As far as the communications from BALPA BACC have been, in my opinion, atrocious and the 'we know best we'll feed you the crumbs when we deem fit' approach hasn't helped ease tensions.

[Harry palmer]

Any news on the recruitment campaign guys? Did they successfully recruit enough airbus rated people for this year and next. The same for the Boeing wide body opening? Is the Non rated recruitment just to fill a small gap in the numbers? Even after all of the above postings I'm still interested. :O

[ManUtd1999]

I'm not a BA pilot (unfortunately, one day maybe...), but if the 'only' outcome of the SHBR is a change to bidline and increased hours then surely that's not too bad? Is it being completely abolished or are pilot's still going to be able to have input into their rosters? As people have pointed out, EASA FTL's were coming anyway.

What would concern me is the continual downward pressure on T&Cs not letting up. Bidline changes might be enough now, but what if management come calling again in a years time? What do you conceed then? If all the current situation is doing is slowing the gradual slide to a BA Express type system then you might as well do it now and get it over with. Maybe this latest round will be enough, but people thought that after the PP34/BMI efficiencies....

[wiggy]

but what when management come calling again in a years time?

As they say these days: "fixed it for you" :ok:

I think the next give will have to be from Long Haul, I don't think (from what has been posted elsewhere today) Short Haul have anything left....

[bex88]

what about when they come next time?.......as if they would :} they have however already told us and the city it is called project Darwin.

[mebn]

Sorry if this has been answered earlier but I can't find much since 2005! What do BA mean by their "British Airways medical requirements" part of the process - is it a medical, if so what is involved? Many thanks.