BA Direct Entry Pilot.

[Heisenb3rg]

Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open.

[Mylius]

Yes, the general consensus does seem to be that if I were to be offered SH, to say no and stay where I am. If I were to be offered LH, to probably take it and go in with my eyes wide open.

Sound advice for anyone joining BA. And after 319 pages so concludes this thread!

[MikeAlpha320]

Bid hasn't even closed yet- why don't we look at what people have actually bid for when its published? We all say/do different things.

Those you mention finishing their freezes now joined at the start of a huge recruitment drive, with new numbers they must be sitting around 3300-3500. We are now up to around 4300 on the MSL. Are you telling me you think there will be a similar amount of movement in the next 5 years? When BA have made cost cutting an absolute priority, why would they pay for another course? Just because your freeze is up doesn't entitle you to a course. With all the LH DEP where is the capacity for moving from airbus to long haul going to come from?

It is not that I 'don't like' BA's rostering. Why is it that Norweigan/Ryanair both work 5/4 , EZY work 5/4/5/3 and have significant protections on random roster? Yet I can, and do, 6 days on 1 day off. My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there? I appreciate the ability to bunch work together, but we shouldn't be rostered these crazy patterns. It is not safe. IF you want to bunch your work together and have more time off elsewhere, great. But it should be our choice.

Joining now you will not see the movement of 'all these pilots' you know that enjoy SH so much they want to stay. Sitting top 20% on a list after 4 years is unheard of, and under JSS, you pick and choose your work. That wont be the case for anyone joining now. If you enjoy spending your weekends sat in pret in T5 waiting for aeroplanes by all means accept a short haul offer. If you have a life outside of work, think very carefully before you give up what you have.

Grass greener? :ok:

[Jumbo2]

My roster pattern for June is 4/2/5/2/6/1/6. Please tell me where the long block off is in there?

5 days off in a month is all you got in June with no NCP, OT or standovers is that what you are saying?

You really have to learn how to bid under JSS if you are a few years (2+) in and that is what you get. Your view and my view differ pretty much 180 degrees on seniority and joining on SH. As I said lots of times before, joining SH at least you climb the seniority ladder while joining on LH you will not climb and could even go back on the seniority ladder for at least 5 years.

Having worked at non seniority airlines before, seeing how seniority works at BA it keeps things fair and very transparent. It also has the added benefit that we don’t have direct entry captains and if people join as LH FO by the time the more senior SH pilots joins the fleet they will enjoy more roster satisfaction.

[Heisenb3rg]

I suppose my question is, do the perceived benefits of the more varied career at BA outweigh the potential negative aspects of a seniority based airline? Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen?

Also, for those who have flown both SH and LH, is long haul really that much better? People always say that flying round Europe for 30 years would be boring but is flying round the world constantly jet lagged and staying in the same hotels actually that much better once the honeymoon period has worn off?

[VinRouge]

Especially at the back end of the recruitment cycle we’ve just seen?

what gives you the idea we are at the back end?

[Heisenb3rg]

what gives you the idea we are at the back end?


​​​​​​OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.

[VinRouge]

​​​​​​OK maybe not back end, but they have certainly recruited heavily for the last year and a half so joining now would put you behind a large group of people.

The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon.

[RexBanner]

The forecast retirement bulge is huge. This is before any moves toward early retirement and an increasing trend for aspirational and RtR part time is accounted for. Not to mention new 350, 4x777-300 and starting delivery of 30+ 777-9 over the next 5 years. One thing is for sure, mobility up the MSL is not stopping any time soon.

Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable.

[3Greens]

Agreed. MikeAlpha320, you’re a little too doom and gloom even for my tastes and believe me that’s saying something!! In response to your statement about not necessarily being entitled to a course once your freeze is up that is absolutely incorrect (as long as you have required seniority for the position of course). P&P rules agreed with Balpa, BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen, if there are sufficient numbers of unfrozen people then no long haul DEP. Obviously there are caveats to that rule where in recent years BA have been able to demonstrate a lack of training capacity and therefore could recruit direct onto long haul ahead of unfrozen bidders. This hasn’t happened to a huge amount of pilots and those it has happened to have been given Waif status and been compensated with long haul pay and then moved the next training year. Unless there’s another Black Swan Event the numbers aren’t going to stop for the foreseeable.
first I’ve heard of anyone being given long haul pay for being a p2 waif? Really?
Passover pay only applies to commands out of seniority, and even then it’s on a one for one basis; and not to every single passed over pilot.

[RexBanner]

I was under the impression that the individuals concerned had been given pass over pay. Given that was second hand
information I could be wrong but, in any case, the rest of the info is all correct.

[MikeAlpha320]

You aren't entitled to a course if there are no courses going! Not saying DEP will be recruited ahead of you- just that if it all slows down you don't automatically have the right to move.

[boeing89]

I've been in the SH hold pool for 3 months so far. Any ideas on when courses might start being offered?

I’m also waiting. Last I heard was that a small SH hold pool has now built up. Maybe someone a little more in the loop has a better idea of current wait times?

[Right Engine]

BA can only recruit a DEP to a LH position if the pilots who otherwise would have moved to these positions are frozen

Lovely to see such naivety still exists in this cruel world :rolleyes:​​​​​​​

[RexBanner]

Alright then Right Engine. You give me the number of how many unfrozen pilots that have actually been denied moves to Long Haul from Short Haul as a result of Long Haul DEP. The number is miniscule in the greater scheme of things.

More or less everybody in recent years has been getting their move after 5 years, if not a little bit less than that, one Airbus pilot I know moved in the final year of her freeze to the 777 after only 3 and a bit years due to joining in December of the first training year.

I’m only trying to point this out because some people are posting some very overly negative and misleading stuff about joining on the airbus and the risks associated with that. I’ve crunched the numbers and right now everything is pointing to me being on a Long Haul course in early 2021 having joined early 2016 (and possibly next year if enough people above me decide to stay as senior P2 on the Airbus due JSS). That’s exactly as advertised when I joined the company.

(And MikeAlpha320 I take your point about courses not necessarily being available but, even with a slowdown that’s unlikely right now due to the large retirement numbers due in 2020/21).

[Pickled]

Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.

[VinRouge]

Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21? VinRouge wrote something similar above "the forecast retirement bulge is huge." I hope that you are both right, but the retirement due to age prediction that I saw had about 100 retirements per year until 2029, when it increases to around 200. The data behind that forecast is quite old, but senior pilots date of birth hasn't changed.

It’s accounts for a 30% increase in seniority in under 10 years.

[RexBanner]

Rex, why do you think there are a large number of retirements due in 2020/21?

The biggest bulge in retirements over the next few years comes in 2020 and 2021. Was told this by a former head of training in an SEP management forum last year (before he was given the boot around the same time as the DFO).

[Pickled]

OK thanks. I have seen 2 different spreadsheets based on retirement at age 65, with no allowance for pilots retiring earlier, going part time, sickness etc, i.e. the worst case scenario. The average number of pilot retirements shown is around 100 per year until 2029 when it starts to increase to around 200 for a few years and then drops to about 130, around 80% of those numbers are P1. Those spreadsheets were produced about 6 years ago.

[RexBanner]

I have seen 2 different spreadsheets based on retirement at age 65, with no allowance for pilots retiring earlier, going part time, sickness etc.

...not to mention people leaving to other airlines too. Therefore with all these other factors ignored it is pretty useless as a guide. I remember looking at Mike’s spreadsheet within my first six months at BA and feeling utterly despondent. I’m already over 200 places better off than it predicted at the time and that’s just in the space of three years.

[Biggles88]

I’ve been in the pool about the same time now. I heard from a source that they have stopped SH training for Aug & Sep as they can’t afford to release the trainers off the line over the busy summer schedule. Not sure how true it is but hopefully courses will start again in the Autumn.

[king surf]

I am one who is not staying until I am 65 and I know dozens with similar intent. Time to go 4 years early and not drag it out to the end.
its all about money for some people and the fear of being a nobody when you leave.
Time to give the youngsters a go and not bed block the system

[GS-Alpha]

and the fear of being a nobody when you leave.
I have always thought it kind of sad that anyone thinks they are somebody just because they have been lucky enough to get the opportunity to fly for a living, but you are probably right that some of it is a fear of losing that feeling for many.

[king surf]

You only have to look at the number of private plated cars, (and I am not talking about cc) to see that they do care what people think about them.
its all about status with some of them. But hey it's a free country and they are free to spend their cash as they please.

[bex88]

A320 CAP is registered to a Blue Talbot clearly status and pay is not all it’s made out to be.

[Dupre]

To be fair, how many of these cringeworthy personalised plates were gifts from well meaning family that the person doesn't have the heart to discard? I know if my family got me JNRTRSH or similar I'd have to pretend to like it 😂

sorry for the thread creep!

[Capt Ecureuil]

Oh this is good.....

I have personalised regs on my truck (off an old Range Rover I bought at auction) and car (off an old airline Vauxhall).

When at work I also consider myself a somebody who's responsible for the crew, pax, airframe and the rest.

Should be a good conversation in the cruise. :)

[WonderBus]

Alright then Right Engine. You give me the number of how many unfrozen pilots that have actually been denied moves to Long Haul from Short Haul as a result of Long Haul DEP. The number is miniscule in the greater scheme of things.

More or less everybody in recent years has been getting their move after 5 years, if not a little bit less than that, one Airbus pilot I know moved in the final year of her freeze to the 777 after only 3 and a bit years due to joining in December of the first training year.

I’m only trying to point this out because some people are posting some very overly negative and misleading stuff about joining on the airbus and the risks associated with that. I’ve crunched the numbers and right now everything is pointing to me being on a Long Haul course in early 2021 having joined early 2016 (and possibly next year if enough people above me decide to stay as senior P2 on the Airbus due JSS). That’s exactly as advertised when I joined the company.

(And MikeAlpha320 I take your point about courses not necessarily being available but, even with a slowdown that’s unlikely right now due to the large retirement numbers due in 2020/21).

Genuinely interested here Rex. What did you base your numbers on? I’m slightly ahead of you, joined mid-late 2015 and am unfrozen in this year’s bid, but don’t think I’ll get anything for a couple of years. That said I haven’t done too much work into it. I have already deleted and re entered my PRIAM twice, as life is getting pretty good with seniority on the Airbus, so don’t know if I want to race to the bottom of a LH status list. I guess it depends on how many people are feeling like me. I look at junior LH rosters and think they look terrible compared to mine at the moment, but then every now and then I’ll openly admit I get big, shiny jet syndrome.

[Icanseeclearly]

I joined just before you wonderbus, early 2015 and am unfrozen next year, like you I am weighing up the pros and cons of a fleet move - I’m just inside the top 25% shorthaul and the rosters I am getting are more than satisfactory, in fact they are pretty much what I want.

have a look on IBId and change your fleet, it will show you where you would be seniority wise if you change fleets, I would be at 66% on the 747, 72% on the 777, 74% on the 787 and 85% on the 380, this should prevent us getting the very poor rosters the very junior joes get (although the numbers don’t look great on the 380 let’s face it there are no bad trips on that fleet). It’s the huge advantage of doing shorthaul first, we jump all the junior guys when we change fleets, I do feel sorry for those joining the longhaul fleets now as a DEP as they will be at the bottom for years and years as all those shorthaul guys slot in above them as they move fleets.

Big decisions for us senior shorthaul guys though, good luck making it .

[hunterboy]

Always fancied 645 NCP myself as a private plate. Probably pick it up for a song too. ;)

[boeing89]

I’ve been in the pool about the same time now. I heard from a source that they have stopped SH training for Aug & Sep as they can’t afford to release the trainers off the line over the busy summer schedule. Not sure how true it is but hopefully courses will start again in the Autumn.

Thanks for the info Biggles88. Fingers crossed :ok:

[aceman18]

Is it possible to transfer the BA pension into a SIPP or are you locked into their scheme?

Thanks in advance!

[Dupre]

Is it possible to transfer the BA pension into a SIPP or are you locked into their scheme?

Thanks in advance!
you can change when the window is open once a year

[GS-Alpha]

You can also transfer money out of BAPP and into your own SIPP any time you like.

[aceman18]

Thanks guys.

[Gingerbread Man]

How long are people waiting in the hold pool for SH recently? I note a post from May from someone saying they’d been waiting two months.

[boeing89]

How long are people waiting in the hold pool for SH recently? I note a post from May from someone saying they’d been waiting two months.

I’ve been in the SH hold pool since mid-May. Hoping for some course start dates soon :)

[RexBanner]

Just as bit of news for potential new joiners today, a Chief Pilot video has been delivered to our inboxes (mostly about ongoing industrial negotiations) in which he says he wants to share with us some exciting ideas for flight ops to benefit both us and the company. The cynic in me is guessing he’s referring to Klaus’ 24 hour Long Haul slips downroute :yuk:

[Heisenb3rg]

Just as bit of news for potential new joiners today, a Chief Pilot video has been delivered to our inboxes (mostly about ongoing industrial negotiations) in which he says he wants to share with us some exciting ideas for flight ops to benefit both us and the company. The cynic in me is guessing he’s referring to Klaus’ 24 hour Long Haul slips downroute :yuk:


Are 24 layovers really on the cards? Would any destination be safe or is that network wide? Because I can’t help but feel if that’s the case there’s surely no point in being long haul? By the time you’ve had a sleep and something to eat, you’ve run out of time to go and do anything other than sit by the pool for a few hours. If the airport hotel even has a pool.

[RexBanner]

Heisenb3rg I’m guessing it’s got to be the destinations where there are regular and daily flights, Heathrow stuff like Nashville, Durban, Charleston and Gatwick trips like Mauritius and the Maldives etc would stay safe because the schedule simply wouldn’t allow it. For destinations like Los Angeles and San Fran though it’s an utter game changer and I agree with you, there’s literally no point in doing long haul if all you’re doing is slipping 24 hours an an airport hotel downroute. The sickening thing though is they’re (read Klaus is) trying to sell it like it’s in our interests because we’d have more “time at home”. It’s in reality their wet dream to reduce costs even further at the expense of flight safety.

This is why we cannot back down now in these industrial negotiations because once BA/IAG management see weakness they’ll be like a cat with its prey, being cruel and vindictive until the life force of the workforce has disappeared.

[Berbly]

How do you know if you’re in the short haul hold pool or not? Are you informed once you’re successful in the sim?

[midfieldgeneral]

Are 24 layovers really on the cards? Would any destination be safe or is that network wide? Because I can’t help but feel if that’s the case there’s surely no point in being long haul? By the time you’ve had a sleep and something to eat, you’ve run out of time to go and do anything other than sit by the pool for a few hours. If the airport hotel even has a pool.

Aer Lingus currently do 24 hour layovers to LA and SFO for the crew. I don’t think it’s airport hotels they stay in though. I guess IAG will benchmark their long haul crew costs vs the rest of the group owned airlines and come up with the lowest number for all.

[RexBanner]

Not sure of the actual hour requirement Percula however as a junior pilot you’ll be nowhere near the seniority required for the fleet, especially now it’s down to one aircraft. To the best of my recollection it’s actually more senior than the 787 and the rest of the long haul fleets so the required Airbus hours would be a given by the time you achieved that level of seniority. (Unless you joined in Gatwick on the Max :} but that’s another story!)

[eckhard]

Most junior LCY captain 1026
Most junior LCY co-pilot 3327

Most junior 777 captain 1244
Most junior 777 co-pilot 4555

Most junior 787 captain 1608
Most junior 787 co-pilot 4553

Most junior 747 captain 1643
Most junior 747 co-pilot 4531

Most junior A380 captain 1653
Most junior A380 co-pilot 4557

Most junior A350 captain 1803
Most junior A350 co-pilot 3194

So, as Rex says, the LCY Airbus is more senior than other fleets for captains, although the A350 just beats it into second place for co-pilots. It’s certainly more senior than the 787.

[Mylius]

Most junior LCY captain 1026
Most junior LCY co-pilot 3327

Most junior 777 captain 1244
Most junior 777 co-pilot 4555

Most junior 787 captain 1608
Most junior 787 co-pilot 4553

Most junior 747 captain 1643
Most junior 747 co-pilot 4531

Most junior A380 captain 1653
Most junior A380 co-pilot 4557

Most junior A350 captain 1803
Most junior A350 co-pilot 3194

So, as Rex says, the LCY Airbus is more senior than other fleets for captains, although the A350 just beats it into second place for co-pilots. It’s certainly more senior than the 787.



For context if you were to join tomorrow you’d be in the late 4500s seniority-wise.

[captain.weird]

Are the new joiners on the 380 only Airbus rated?

[Sapphire5]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any advice for the stage 1 computer assessment and verbal reasoning?

Any tips would be much appreciated.

[norfolkungood]

Are 24 layovers really on the cards? Would any destination be safe or is that network wide? Because I can’t help but feel if that’s the case there’s surely no point in being long haul? By the time you’ve had a sleep and something to eat, you’ve run out of time to go and do anything other than sit by the pool for a few hours. If the airport hotel even has a pool.

We have regular 26 hr LH layovers on in Cathay Pacific. In the winter we do Boston, which is about 15hr flight time each way and get 26hrs on the layover! I’m on a HKG-YVR-JFK-HKG pattern as I type this. 35 hrs off in YVR and 25:30 in JFK. Averaging about 870 hours a year as a 777 Capt.......living the dream😂

[SOPS]

Nearly all EK layovers are 24 hours. Makes it really hard when you have to try and sleep twice in 24 hours.

[Threethirty]

Norfolkungood yes but it’s slightly different in Cathay as you’re flying with 4 crew, most BA flights are 3 crew.

[wiggy]

Just to avoid misunderstanding and perhaps raised expectations amongst potential joiners I take it by that you mean most of our "long range" ops is 3 pilot. Obviously (?) there's also a heck of a lot of two pilot work around at BA, even on the Long Haul Fleets.

[Threethirty]

Thanks for clarifying that Wiggy

[wiggy]

:ok:

Hope that didn't come over as "picky"...I know what you were getting at but would just hate to see you being quoted verbatim by a new joiner to Long Haul who has had sight of his/her first JSS train wreck, with " but you said...:bored:".

ATB.

[Officer Kite]

Who is the Sky God occupying #1 on the seniority list?

[ETOPS]

Somebody just like you.

[Doug E Style]

Who is the Sky God occupying #1 on the seniority list?

Nigel Something

[followthegreens]

Are the new joiners on the 380 only Airbus rated?

There's probably the one exception that brakes the rule, but I'd say yes pretty much all direct entries on the A380 had an Airbus rating when they joined.

[norfolkungood]

Norfolkungood yes but it’s slightly different in Cathay as you’re flying with 4 crew, most BA flights are 3 crew.



True. Unfortunately seems all our lords and masters want to reduce manning/ rest to the minimum to increase the productivity. Our lot would jump at the chance of 3 man. They tried it but as most of our departures are around midnight the FTLs didn’t quite allow it. We now do a large proportion of our LHs with 2 Second Officers as opposed to a 2 FOs. So the FO just gets the wrong rest and still has to be in the seat for landing! Notwithstanding our experience levels have dropped through the floor.....

I fear for all of us where this is all leading.....

[aaa333]

If the pay rise offer of 11% over three years were to go ahead would that apply to new joiners’ salaries too or only existing employees?

Do guys find they have much savings left over every month with the salary being as low as it is?

Being bottom of the seniority list is it not still possible to swap flights once the roster is out and get options in there that you like?

Thanks!

[Twiglet1]

True. Unfortunately seems all our lords and masters want to reduce manning/ rest to the minimum to increase the productivity. Our lot would jump at the chance of 3 man. They tried it but as most of our departures are around midnight the FTLs didn’t quite allow it. We now do a large proportion of our LHs with 2 Second Officers as opposed to a 2 FOs. So the FO just gets the wrong rest and still has to be in the seat for landing! Notwithstanding our experience levels have dropped through the floor.....

I fear for all of us where this is all leading.....
Eventually the 2 Second Officers will get enough experience to be a FO.
The FO in the seat for the landing will (in theory) have a Captain in a better state of awake than himself.
What else?

[wiggy]

If the pay rise offer of 11% over three years were to go ahead would that apply to new joiners’ salaries too or only existing employees?
Do guys find they have much savings left over every month with the salary being as low as it is?

Being bottom of the seniority list is it not still possible to swap flights once the roster is out and get options in there that you like?

Thanks!





1. Payrise = change to the pay scales so everybody benefits.

2. Savings: Not a new joiner by any stretch of the imagination so can't help...and in any event guess that would depend on personal circumstances ...I'm sure somebody more helpful will be along in a minute.

3. Swopping: Certainly possible, FTLs allowing. Whether you are going to be able to get an option you like :) by getting rid an option you don't like :{ will be down to "taste". Swopping mundane trips to generate days off you want (again FTLs allowing) but it might be a slightly tougher task trying to get rid of an unpopular destination/trip by expecting to be able swop it with something "tasty".

[CXKA]

Eventually the 2 Second Officers will get enough experience to be a FO.
The FO in the seat for the landing will (in theory) have a Captain in a better state of awake than himself.
What else?
I have done these 2 SO flights when I was an RQ FO at CX and its all very well having a nicely rested Captain but the FO is trying their hardest just to stay awake. Another cost cutting idea that infringes on the safety of the operation.

[cessnapete]

I have done these 2 SO flights when I was an RQ FO at CX and its all very well having a nicely rested Captain but the FO is trying their hardest just to stay awake. Another cost cutting idea that infringes on the safety of the operation.

BA don’t do “SOs”. On joining all copilots are fully trained and qualified as RHS for two crew ops. As Wiggy says many LH trips on 777/787/744/ and a few on A380 are operated with two crew. For a new LH FO, people are recruited with sufficient big jet hours to allow them, after the Type Rating to operate on two pilot trips immediately after Line Training as FO.

[CXKA]

BA don’t do “SOs”. On joining all copilots are fully trained and qualified as RHS for two crew ops. As Wiggy says many LH trips on 777/787/744/ and a few on A380 are operated with two crew. For a new LH FO, people are recruited with sufficient big jet hours to allow them, after the Type Rating to operate on two pilot trips immediately after Line Training as FO.

I was speaking about CX, as for BA we have all seen the various docunet updates that mention cruise only pilots as an interim measure before being fully qualified to the line on LH fleets.

[aaa333]

Thanks for the reply Wiggy :)

does anyone have a copy of the current PP payscale that new joiners sign on that they can paste here?

Thanks!

[Flap33]

I seem to remember a notice earlier this year detailing training requirements of "cruise pilots" on 777 & 747 for new entrants. They did this on the A380 previously.

[cessnapete]

I was speaking about CX, as for BA we have all seen the various docunet updates that mention cruise only pilots as an interim measure before being fully qualified to the line on LH fleets.

Correct, an interim measure in times of high recruitment when there is not enough Line Training capacity. BA do not have a Policy of employing semi permanent Cruise only, partially trained SOs.

[Daddy Fantastic]

Is it true that if you join BA on the A320 based out of LGW you will come home every night with only possibly 1 or 2 lay overs a month?

As for LHR I heard you tend to do tours/trips for 3 or 4 days?

Im a 6000 hour pilot with 3000 plus jet hours so I do not know what kind of fleet they would offer me whether it be domestic or international.I have never flown wide body international but the thought of doing that kind of flying is not very appealing to me and from what I have been reading on junior new hires with JSS it just seems like a world of pain.

I ask because I am being interviewed by BA in 2 weeks time and if I get thru everything and get a job offer I would like to join on the A320 fleet but probably commute from Europe, most likely Spain where I would plan on living again.

So coming home every night would not work for me unless I paid for hotels which kind of defeats the purpose of commuting. I refuse to live in London with all that grime crime and slime as I have a wife and daughter and wont expose them to all that rubbish.

Any thoughts are most welcome.

[Enzo999]

Is it true that if you join BA on the A320 based out of LGW you will come home every night with only possibly 1 or 2 lay overs a month?

As for LHR I heard you tend to do tours/trips for 3 or 4 days?

Im a 6000 hour pilot with 3000 plus jet hours so I do not know what kind of fleet they would offer me whether it be domestic or international.I have never flown wide body international but the thought of doing that kind of flying is not very appealing to me and from what I have been reading on junior new hires with JSS it just seems like a world of pain.

I ask because I am being interviewed by BA in 2 weeks time and if I get thru everything and get a job offer I would like to join on the A320 fleet but probably commute from Europe, most likely Spain where I would plan on living again.

So coming home every night would not work for me unless I paid for hotels which kind of defeats the purpose of commuting. I refuse to live in London with all that grime crime and slime as I have a wife and daughter and wont expose them to all that rubbish.

Any thoughts are most welcome.

There are other places to live than London! LGW get very few layovers 2 a month if your lucky. LHR many more. Lots of guys commute from LHR, but to be honest looks like a nightmare to me.

[Busdriver01]

Is it true that if you join BA on the A320 based out of LGW you will come home every night with only possibly 1 or 2 lay overs a month?

As for LHR I heard you tend to do tours/trips for 3 or 4 days?

Im a 6000 hour pilot with 3000 plus jet hours so I do not know what kind of fleet they would offer me whether it be domestic or international.I have never flown wide body international but the thought of doing that kind of flying is not very appealing to me and from what I have been reading on junior new hires with JSS it just seems like a world of pain.

I ask because I am being interviewed by BA in 2 weeks time and if I get thru everything and get a job offer I would like to join on the A320 fleet but probably commute from Europe, most likely Spain where I would plan on living again.

So coming home every night would not work for me unless I paid for hotels which kind of defeats the purpose of commuting. I refuse to live in London with all that grime crime and slime as I have a wife and daughter and wont expose them to all that rubbish.

Any thoughts are most welcome.


honest opinion? It sounds like you’d be better off applying for a Spanish base with EZY. With those hours you’d be looking at a command within 2 years, no commuting, and the money is better. (Admittedly the spanish eJ contract could be better when compared to other countries but if you were going to be spending money commuting then it’d even out).

As for BA, from what I’ve heard you’re more likely to be offered lgw than lhr if they want you on the 320 as less people want to go there, but you can always ask if lhr is available. Bare in mind that with low seniority you’d be doing more single nightstops from lhr as from what friends have said the senior lot like to take the tours.

[Tricia Takanawa]

Only EDI GLA and JSY night stops from LGW. So you might as well join EZY for a fixed roster if you're going to LGW.

LHR does do tours, but being at the bottom of the list you wont have much say in whether you get them. Coupled in with at least 2 blocks of 3 weeks reserve a year, commuting to LHR for short haul would be tough on the home life too.

Long haul is best for commuting, but again, being at the bottom of the list isn't going to get you a great roster, don't forget to add the multiple blocks of reserve every year.

With that experience I would seriously try and look elsewhere. There are much better options now, that will pay more, give more days off and be a company that you are actually proud to say that you work for, with a much nicer day out when at work, rather than planning a mission to Mars every report.

[RexBanner]

I’m Gatwick based (three years at Heathrow before) and rarely do a day trip in LGW unless it’s called from standby on reserve. However I am senior there and still have to do multiple nights in Gatwick (maybe 10 or so). As others have said not the best base for commuting unless, like me, you live in one of the few nightstop destinations and even then it’s a drag.

The workload gets high all year round too if all you’re doing is bidding for nightstops because, by their nature, they’re mostly six sector single nightstops over two days with long links either side. I was told Gatwick was seasonal and quiet in the winter but that doesn’t apply if you ask Carmen for nightstops. Flew 95 hours in January, my first month there, March was just as bad. A lot of nights in my own bed though!!

I wouldn’t necessarily say that LGW is more likely than LHR as I think we have nearly a full compliment in the RHS here, maybe a few less. According to iBid and looking at the historic compliment, however, it looks like LHR is under by nearly 30 pilots, possibly more. There’ll be many more unfrozen pilots leaving the Airbus from Heathrow next year than Gatwick too.

Gatwick is a far friendlier base and nicer place to work IMHO vs Heathrow, you actually get to know people here and the knob jockeys in the LHS are considerably fewer. The aircraft though are absolutely knackered and the number of MEL items you can be confronted with upon boarding the aircraft for the first time can be frustrating and downright exhausting.

More for anyone considering Gatwick vs Heathrow to be honest rather than the original poster..

[Daddy Fantastic]

There are other places to live than London! LGW get very few layovers 2 a month if your lucky. LHR many more. Lots of guys commute from LHR, but to be honest looks like a nightmare to me.

Sure I realise that but was just stating my dislike for London and not wanting to live there. If I did live back in the UK where would you suggest that is very nice to live and commutable to LGW and possibly LHR?

Thanks for your help

[Daddy Fantastic]

Grime, crime and slime?

Yeah if you believe all the media.

Loads of lovely areas stones throw to LHR. Twickenham, Teddington Richmond lovely areas not too expensive.

If you can afford it Chiswick, Kew are great. 15 mins to T5 or tube it in 30-40. No parking to worry about.



Thanks for the repliy, yeah there are nice places outside of London for sure like you mentioned. Maybe I seriously need to consider EZY as a few have mentioned.

[zero/zero]

Honestly have no idea why anyone would consider BA if Long Haul is not of any interest and you don’t want to live near Heathrow

[Enzo999]

Sure I realise that but was just stating my dislike for London and not wanting to live there. If I did live back in the UK where would you suggest that is very nice to live and commutable to LGW and possibly LHR?

Thanks for your help

In-between is slightly difficult because you are limited to the outer edges of the southern M25. So places like Epsom, Weybridge, Chertsey, Guildford! All very expensive. Once you know your base you can draw a 30 miles ring and almost pick anywhere. I can’t really talk about LGW but I live just west of LHR in Buckinghamshire, lots of lovely places out that way. Henley, Marlow, Amersham. Oxfordshire even Chinnor, Thame, Oxford. Basically follow the M40 or M4 out of London and most places are nice and a lot cheaper than the city.

[Stone Cold II]

Honestly have no idea why anyone would consider BA if Long Haul is not of any interest and you don’t want to live near Heathrow
This sums it up.

[flyingmed]

Is there anyone who can shed some light on the roster for longhaul pilots?
1 - Is it possible to commute from another country?
2 - If you live in another European country how many days at home (on average) would you have per month?
3 - Is it possible to pay taxes etc in the country of domicile instead of the UK?

Thanks in advance for any information!

[Stocious]

Plenty lovely places to live in Surrey/Sussex too if you're aiming for a home-every-night base like LGW.

[red9]

be a company that you are actually proud to say that you work for, with a much nicer day out when at work, rather than planning a mission to Mars every report.
Sums it up

[flyingmed]

Plenty lovely places to live in Surrey/Sussex too if you're aiming for a home-every-night base like LGW.

Lovely offer however I'd prefer to live abroad and commute to work. Prefer to fly than deal with London traffic!

[RexBanner]

Is there anyone who can shed some light on the roster for longhaul pilots?
1 - Is it possible to commute from another country?
2 - If you live in another European country how many days at home (on average) would you have per month?
3 - Is it possible to pay taxes etc in the country of domicile instead of the UK?

Thanks in advance for any information!
1 - Yes it is. Although the staff travel audit is making it harder and harder for commuters as the company is taking a dim view of those who commute on the same day as report.

2 - You’ll be junior on the long haul fleets. Bear in mind that the junior guys are the ones getting JSS absolute disaster rosters of six trips a month with minimum days off in between (which I’ve no doubt you weren’t shown on any recruitment roadshow/day). Coupled with point 1 above you have to consider if this is really worth it if you only have two days off between most trips and you’re being forced to come back the night before your next trip due to the intimidatory attitude from BA management. Of course if you have staff travel with another airline then you’re onto a winner. You might end up with only five useful full days at home a month in this scenario.

3 - Yes. As long as you can limit your time in the U.K. to a maximum of 90 nights in the tax year. You’ll still pay national insurance (social security) in the U.K. regardless of your domicile.

[wiggy]

P
3 - Is it possible to pay taxes etc in the country of domicile instead of the UK?


It’s a complex subject and has been the subject of heated debate here. Simplistic answer is that if you meet the requirements to be non resident in the U.K. for tax purposes ( and there is much more to it than simply avoiding being in the U.K. for 90 days) you may well still end paying some U.K. income tax and also some income tax where you are resident.

As Rex has said you pay full U.K. National Insurance, which may exempt you from some social charges on income in your country of residence.

[Mylius]

Honestly have no idea why anyone would consider BA if Long Haul is not of any interest and you don’t want to live near Heathrow

You’re right here. BA is probably the best long-haul job in the UK but definitely the worst short-haul job. If you don’t want to do long-haul then there are far better short-haul options.

[WhatTheDeuce]

The worst short haul job? Do 5 years and you’ll barely work a weekend ever again with your choice of earlies / lates / daytrips / tours.

The days at work are so much easier compared to low cost, you just need to figure out how to not be bothered by the BA machine. I really enjoy it!

[Meester proach]

In-between is slightly difficult because you are limited to the outer edges of the southern M25. So places like Epsom, Weybridge, Chertsey, Guildford! All very expensive. Once you know your base you can draw a 30 miles ring and almost pick anywhere. I can’t really talk about LGW but I live just west of LHR in Buckinghamshire, lots of lovely places out that way. Henley, Marlow, Amersham. Oxfordshire even Chinnor, Thame, Oxford. Basically follow the M40 or M4 out of London and most places are nice and a lot cheaper than the city.
I dont really think a junior FO could afford anything other than a tent in places like Henley and Marlow, unless your other half is a surgeon or something

[Stocious]

Lovely offer however I'd prefer to live abroad and commute to work. Prefer to fly than deal with London traffic!

Cool. I live in a lovely house in the Sussex countryside, near a lovely school, spend every night in my own bed and I leave the house 25 mins before report time. I know which I'd prefer!

[DuctOvht]

The worst short haul job? Do 5 years and you’ll barely work a weekend ever again with your choice of earlies / lates / daytrips / tours.

The days at work are so much easier compared to low cost, you just need to figure out how to not be bothered by the BA machine. I really enjoy it!

Not true. These days 5yrs will likely give you the seniority for the LHS on short haul, where you will be as junior as it gets and staring down the barrel of some really grim rosters for a very long time.

If if you want to stay in the RHS then you’ll probably do ok, but the people that choose to do that rather than move on to other fleets and seats are few and far between.

[RexBanner]

BA is probably the best long-haul job in the UK

Have you seen a junior LH roster nowadays? At least in the days of Bidline you had Seeded Blindlines and you could go somewhere decent and not work too too hard. Nowadays you can expect to pick up all the crap, with six trips with minimum days off in between. There’s guys now actively bidding for reserve because it gives them a better work/life balance, that’s saying something! Virgin fly 750 hours a year on a full time roster to our 900. That alone disproves your point. The case of the DEP who did a couple of months on the 787, took the type rating then buggered off to Virgin tells its own story.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Have you seen a junior LH roster nowadays? At least in the days of Bidline you had Seeded Blindlines and you could go somewhere decent and not work too too hard. Nowadays you can expect to pick up all the crap, with six trips with minimum days off in between. There’s guys now actively bidding for reserve because it gives them a better work/life balance, that’s saying something! Virgin fly 750 hours a year on a full time roster to our 900. That alone disproves your point. The case of the DEP who did a couple of months on the 787, took the type rating then buggered off to Virgin tells its own story.









Just for completeness, Seeded Blindlines were ONLY on the 747.....the other long haul fleets weren't so lucky. However when I joined on a LH Fleet Blindlines were pretty good and trading with EOT was very easy allowing me to totally rewrite my roster some months.

I'm currently about 2/3 down the P2 list on the 777.....rosters are manageable but under JSS I'm very realistic about what I can expect so bid accordingly. My real gripe at the moment is the number of weekends worked per annum which is ridiculous. In fact it's having a very serious impact on my family life. That said, I met a lovely bloke on my last trip who's just vacated the LHS of the Bus to return to the RHS on the triple. So short of moving to the RHS of the SH Bus and gaining a huge chunk of relative seniority I'm stuck with it. Hopefully the efforts towards getting a fairer balance of weekends off can be achieved soon!

As you say, stories of DEP's joining then swiftly leaving (I know of at least 2 other guys who've done the same) and people giving up a BA Short Haul Command to return to the RHS on a Long Haul fleet to regain some sort of life out of work says a lot!!! Pretty sad really isn't it.

[WhatTheDeuce]

Not true. These days 5yrs will likely give you the seniority for the LHS on short haul, where you will be as junior as it gets and staring down the barrel of some really grim rosters for a very long time.

If if you want to stay in the RHS then you’ll probably do ok, but the people that choose to do that rather than move on to other fleets and seats are few and far between.

Indeed - so you can either stay as an FO with a decent lifestyle, get your command with an extra £25k per year and more weekend working, or for the same cash you get your command and go 75% with an extra 13 weeks off per year.

[RexBanner]

That’s assuming you can get Part Time in the current climate. People with bids are getting rejected left, right and centre.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Are they? Bugger! I'd heard it was getting more difficult to achieve Part Time. I've been giving it very serious consideration. As eluded to above, people clambering for part time, leaving the company soon after joining and giving up short haul command all paints a grim picture of life in the bottom half of the list.

[Mylius]

Have you seen a junior LH roster nowadays? At least in the days of Bidline you had Seeded Blindlines and you could go somewhere decent and not work too too hard. Nowadays you can expect to pick up all the crap, with six trips with minimum days off in between. There’s guys now actively bidding for reserve because it gives them a better work/life balance, that’s saying something! Virgin fly 750 hours a year on a full time roster to our 900. That alone disproves your point. The case of the DEP who did a couple of months on the 787, took the type rating then buggered off to Virgin tells its own story.


And the people who have moved from Virgin to BA on the 787? What’s their reasoning? As always you need to take a long-term view to a career at BA. In terms of variety and career options it’s hard to beat. I have flown 700 hours full time (including positioning) in the last 12 months so the thought of an extra 50 elsewhere is frightening! Point re-proven.

[RexBanner]

You’re in the minority on Long Haul if all you’ve done is 700 hours.

[Riskybis]

And the people who have moved from Virgin to BA on the 787? What’s their reasoning? As always you need to take a long-term view to a career at BA. In terms of variety and career options it’s hard to beat. I have flown 700 hours full time (including positioning) in the last 12 months so the thought of an extra 50 elsewhere is frightening! Point re-proven.

700 !!!!!! May I ask what fleet you are on and your seniority

[GS-Alpha]

700 !!!!!! May I ask what fleet you are on and your seniority
And how much time you’ve had off with sickness, dependency, or cancelled trips due to fleet engine problems perhaps? 700 hours is definitely only achieved by a few and to suggest otherwise is pure fiction.

[JulietSierra6]

I’m guessing you mean it’s unlikely anyone’s done less that 700 hours on LH?

If not in the last few years I’ve done no more than 650-700 full time LGW, with no long term absence. I do work every weekend though :rolleyes:

[WhatTheDeuce]

100 hours overtime last year and my flying hours were about 750 - no sick days. (SH LHR)

[Daddy Fantastic]

Cool. I live in a lovely house in the Sussex countryside, near a lovely school, spend every night in my own bed and I leave the house 25 mins before report time. I know which I'd prefer!

Cant argue with that logic.

[Twiglet1]

Just for completeness, Seeded Blindlines were ONLY on the 747.....the other long haul fleets weren't so lucky. However when I joined on a LH Fleet Blindlines were pretty good and trading with EOT was very easy allowing me to totally rewrite my roster some months.

I'm currently about 2/3 down the P2 list on the 777.....rosters are manageable but under JSS I'm very realistic about what I can expect so bid accordingly. My real gripe at the moment is the number of weekends worked per annum which is ridiculous. In fact it's having a very serious impact on my family life. That said, I met a lovely bloke on my last trip who's just vacated the LHS of the Bus to return to the RHS on the triple. So short of moving to the RHS of the SH Bus and gaining a huge chunk of relative seniority I'm stuck with it. Hopefully the efforts towards getting a fairer balance of weekends off can be achieved soon!

As you say, stories of DEP's joining then swiftly leaving (I know of at least 2 other guys who've done the same) and people giving up a BA Short Haul Command to return to the RHS on a Long Haul fleet to regain some sort of life out of work says a lot!!! Pretty sad really isn't it.

The issue of weekends off is even more relevant in today's "I want it now" society and where lifestyle is a big plus for Aircrew.
Back in the good ole days there was no such thing as part time. Now days there is one UK AOC (big red and yellow machine) that's see's part time as a positive way of keeping its crews,(probably 20% are P/T) This ensures their loyalty (most of the time), offering fixed roster pattern for a large amount of crew and has agreements for days off in a year (never enough for Nigel's but a good amount) and has an agreement on weekends off also.
The problem for BALPA is getting their members to think collectively rather than just for themselves - Good luck with that. If BA are to offer more weekends they will want something back e.g. no payrise, 1000 hours etc etc

[BitMoreRightRudder]

If BA are to offer more weekends they will want something back e.g. no payrise, 1000 hours etc etc

I don’t follow your logic. You can’t compare a cargo airline (I’m presuming you are talking about DHL) with a scheduled pax carrier when looking at scheduling. How are BA going to offer more weekends off? Cancel flights? There will always be a need for BA pilots to work weekends. We aren’t talking about a charter operation here.

Weekends off come more frequently with seniority in a seniority driven system. It’s really as simple as that. All the collective Nigelism in the world won’t stop the need for Saturday-Sunday reports.

[wiggy]

How are BA going to offer more weekends off? Cancel flights? There will always be a need for BA pilots to work weekends. We aren’t talking about a charter operation here.



Agreed..the company could reduce exposure to weekends by reducing CAP, which would mean either reducing the flying programme or employing a lot more pilots..what are the chances :oh:

Wanting weekends off isn't something new but there isn't a complete fix and even those of us on senior long haul rosters will see work touch or completely cover the majority of weekends in a month ( though you do bump into the irritating outliers who like to claim they never work weekends..).

Re Part Time and Aiminghigh's question:

..I don't have the numbers to hand but:

I gather getting an Aspirational Part Time Contract ( as in I'd like Part Time) is rather problematic.

Some folks are getting a "no" to " to asks for "Right to Request" contracts.

So yes, the observation that people are having difficulty getting a part time contracts is true.

[deltahotel]

BMRR. Not wanting to distract from what is a BA thread but comparisons can be useful and the point made was that the red and yellow machine has weekends off as part of a scheduling agreement rather than being miserable for a number of years until seniority becomes your friend.

Freight does move at weekends and plenty of crews have weekends away from home in all sorts of places. Also getting home am sat after a string of nights doesn’t really count as a weekend off, neither does reporting sun pm.

Out of interest does BA have a contractual annual Days free of Duty total? (Leave plus OFF days). How far in advance is the roster published? Once published can the days worked be adjusted without consent?

just curious.

[wiggy]

Out of interest does BA have a contractual annual Days free of Duty total? (Leave plus OFF days).

No, not as such..in basic terms for guaranteed days off you have your 4 weeks leave, plus ,if you opt not to work in them you have a handful off wrap ( buffer) days associated with the leave,, plus 2 Duty Free weeks, and up to 6 Golden days you can also opt to take. Outside of that It's down to EASA.

How far in advance is the roster published?

20 days. For example August's roster should come out 11 July.

Once published can the days worked be adjusted without consent?

General answer would be no, but there is an minor element of "it depends"....if a trip is cancelled before you leave base then depending on circumstances you might be expected to be available for a replacement trip that covers the days of the original trip plus one day. Once you've left base you pretty much have to suck up any changes and accept any extra days worked - which I guess is pretty universal.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Not wanting to distract from what is a BA thread but comparisons can be useful and the point made was that the red and yellow machine has weekends off as part of a scheduling agreement rather than being miserable for a number of years until seniority becomes your friend.

That sounds like a very sensible rostering solution. If BA pilots were given Carte Blanche to design their own agreement something like that may well work better for future generations.

The problem is BA doesn’t work like that, and in a seniority system you have to accept a period at the bottom. Which means years of majority weekend working.

[Joe le Taxi]

It beats me why a bunch of new joiners don't club together and mount a legal challenge against the application of seniority in BA -open and shut case.

[wiggy]

The problem is BA doesn’t work like that, and in a seniority system you have to accept a period at the bottom. Which means years of majority weekend working.





I've just had a look at the rosters at the top of a longhaul senority list ( numbers < 100) and a significant number are working 2 or 3 weekends in July, and at least one is working 4. I'm not at that stratospheric level of seniority but I've just come a run of three weekends on the trot ( albeit by choice, to get the trips then subsequent days off I needed).

I'll emphasise that I don't agree that there should be a situation where somebody is forced to work every weekend outside of leave for years on end but we need to be careful of creating an impression that weekend working is very much more biased towards juniority than perhaps is actually the case.

[EMB-145LR]

I've just had a look at the rosters at the top of a longhaul senority list ( numbers < 100) and a significant number are working 2 or 3 weekends in July, and at least one is working 4. I'm not at that stratospheric level of seniority but I've just come a run of three weekends on the trot ( albeit by choice, to get the trips then subsequent days off I needed).

I'll emphasise that I don't agree that there should be a situation where somebody is forced to work every weekend outside of leave for years on end but we need to be careful of creating an impression that weekend working is very much more biased towards juniority than perhaps is actually the case.

Absolutely agree with the above. I’m in the top third on my fleet. In May I worked two weekends (my choice), June I worked every weekend (definitely not my choice!), July I’m working one weekend (my choice) and by using leave and golden days I already know I won’t be working any weekends in August.

[Jumbo2]

Absolutely agree with the above. I’m in the top third on my fleet. In May I worked two weekends (my choice), June I worked every weekend (definitely not my choice!), July I’m working one weekend (my choice) and by using leave and golden days I already know I won’t be working any weekends in August.





A fair bit more senior then and on the same fleet as EMB-145LR (top fifth on the fleet) and have pretty much worked every weekend this year. Working a weekend doesn't bother me and therefore I have nothing in my bid groups restricting the amount of weekend work. Also seen a graph with the weekend points vs seniority on our fleet (FO A320 LHR) and you would be surprised how weekend points are much more spread over the whole seniority range then some assume it is.

[Right Engine]

The anecdote above, that senior people are working lots of weekends in July, is because BALPA/BA have recently incentivised weekend work that enables you to accumulate points that result in you not having to do 21 days of standby in a row (called ‘Reserve’)

So now if you’re junior you might get a few more weekends off than you used to, but you’re going to do a little more reserve as a consequence.

[wiggy]

The anecdote above, that senior people are working lots of weekends in July, is because BALPA/BA have recently incentivised weekend work that enables you to accumulate points that result in you not having to do 21 days of standby in a row (called ‘Reserve’)

So now if you’re junior you might get a few more weekends off than you used to, but you’re going to do a little more reserve as a consequence.

Out of interest do you reckon the points scheme really has much of an effect? I've yet to hear anybody to say " I bid for this weekends XXX" ' cos I needed the points, though I accept some might do that.

[Jumbo2]

The anecdote above, that senior people are working lots of weekends in July, is because BALPA/BA have recently incentivised weekend work that enables you to accumulate points that result in you not having to do 21 days of standby in a row (called ‘Reserve’)

So now if you’re junior you might get a few more weekends off than you used to, but you’re going to do a little more reserve as a consequence.



No it has nothing to do with the trippling of the weekend points. The graph was from just before the weekend points got trippled.

Since the first day of the introduction of JSS I’ve had 3 weekends off and 2 of those were because of holidays, the other one I worked every other weekend that month I already made cap during those trips.

[Jumbo2]

Out of interest do you reckon the points scheme really has much of an effect? I've yet to hear anybody to say " I bid for this weekends XXX" ' cos I needed the points, though I accept some might do that.


I’m with you wiggy, I don’t think it has any effect. But as somebody who rather does his shopping during the week and were the other half works shifts as well it is a nice added bonus to avoid the reserve periods.

[fruitbat]

I’ve definitely changed my bid to allow more weekend work, top 10% on my fleet so have the choice fortunately. Its been emphasised it’s a temporary measure, so if I don’t need a weekend off specifically over the summer I’m working to gain the points before the rules change again.

[RexBanner]

Would be very surprised if that’s true. More people due to leave the fleet later in the year to the A350 and Heathrow especially is already undermanned in the RHS. Maybe that’s for non type rated perhaps?

Last comms from AK on the Yammer recruitment forum suggested short haul start dates in the autumn.

[Thegreenmachine]

I've heard a rumor that there will be no more short-haul start dates until the new year. Does anyone have more info?

Hope that isn't true. Very busy down here at the bottom of the list, as it is for those at the top too I imagine.

[RexBanner]

Thanks for the info. A320 rated here patiently swimming since march.

​​​​​Sounds like some potential for an offer for LHR in that case. What are the pros and cons for each base for shorthaul? I live in central London so commuting time is similar for both bases.

Don’t take my words as gospel but the manpower situation would suggest that Airbus FOs are going to be needed sooner rather than later. Remember seeing that yammer post a couple of months ago now that start dates would not be issued over the summer but would recommence in the Autumn.

As far as the bases go I’m in a good position to comment as I did three years up the road in Heathrow and started at Gatwick in January. It depends what you’re after really, I came down to Gatwick for very specific reasons because I live in and commute from Jersey and was tired of trudging up and down the M25 prior to and after a block of work plus we nightstop in Jersey so, with my seniority here, am spending a lot more nights in my own bed nowadays.

Gatwick is hands down a friendlier and more welcoming base. The Eurofleet anti pilot agenda does not exist here so cabin crew do go out of their way to keep you fed and watered (has led to me putting on more than a few pounds though!) and actually start conversations with you. It’s amazing that something as trifling as that raised eyebrows in my first couple of weeks in Gatwick. The base is much smaller so it’s more of a community, you always see people you know and can say hello to in the FOB (briefing room).

The Captains are generally lovely to fly with and a bit more chilled out here than up the road, probably because they fly with guys with no experience all the time here so aren’t immediately on the defensive as soon as they see a two striper. It’s a more seasonal base so summers are manic and winters much quieter (although with reference to a previous post I didn’t experience that this winter due to the work that I bid for, Jersey nightstops which are all two day sixes with long links usually). As there’s only three nightstops time away from base is limited and therefore take home pay can be significantly lower than Heathrow where there are more nightstops and tours available.

Heathrow has JSS for bidding and Gatwick has Carmen. Carmen is a bit kinder to junior pilots so I gather, it tries to give at least some satisfaction to the junior guys and girls. It does have some serious flaws and limitations though and you have to get to know the ways to trick it into giving you what you what, but it will almost always be at the expense of something you want less. Life in a nutshell I guess!

So it really depends what you want. Gatwick only has three nightstops; JER, GLA & EDI (rumours of more coming possibly NAP and TFS but I’ll believe that when I see it). So if you want to be experiencing cities in Europe, nightstopping and earning better money go to Heathrow. You’ll have more nights in your own bed in Gatwick for sure.

Be aware though that reserve periods are much longer in LHR (21 days) and you’ll do them frequently for your first couple of years. The longest reserve period in Gatwick is 6 days. The flying in Gatwick can be a bit more challenging too if you like that as Heathrow is mainly ILS to ILS whereas there’s more destinations with non precision circling stuff in LGW, having said that a lot of them are now replaced by RNAV visuals with coded waypoints which is great for safety but has taken a lot of the fun and challenge out of it (I’m looking at you, Nice).

Best of luck with it whatever you decide and maybe see you on the line one day.

[Sheep Worrier]

Anyone have any idea when those of us who applied in the latest round might hear back?

[Daddy Fantastic]

For those interested in Long Haul what are the chances of getting straight onto the A350 or A380 as a non type rate DEP? Also if short haul has no class dates until Q1 2020 then what about class dates for Long Haul on any fleet?

[TommiW]

Anyone here applied on the NQPP earlier this year and had any success booking their assessment day? I was invited to the stage 1 assessment over a month ago but had no joy getting a date out of recruitment

[Daddy Fantastic]

For those interested in Long Haul what are the chances of getting straight onto the A350 or A380 as a non type rate DEP? Also if short haul has no class dates until Q1 2020 then what about class dates for Long Haul on any fleet?

Any takers?

[fruitbat]

For 350/380 you would need to be current Airbus. 320 experience is most common for DEP’s on those fleets.

[Icanseeclearly]

With hundreds of P2s being unfrozen next year and obviously airbus qualified it would be an interesting move by BA to take DEPs onto the 380 or 350...

Personally my bid is to remain shorthaul (top 20 percent) but I imagine there would be a lot of gnashing of teeth if there are large numbers of DEPs long haul.

[MikeAlpha320]

350 DEPs have already been recruited.

[RexBanner]

350 DEPs have already been recruited.

heard the same last night from an easyJet skipper who has been flying with a load who are working their notice with start dates on the A350. I’ll withhold my true feelings on that due to pprunes policy on profanity. This company just gets worse and worse.

[GS-Alpha]

If you are frozen on type, you are frozen on type. How can you say the company is getting worse and worse when so many hundreds of long haul DEPs have been recruited onto long haul ahead of frozen internal pilots just in the last few years alone? As far as I am aware, there has been no change in policy.

[Jaffo320]

If you are frozen on type, you are frozen on type. How can you say the company is getting worse and worse when so many hundreds of long haul DEPs have been recruited onto long haul ahead of frozen internal pilots just in the last few years alone? As far as I am aware, there has been no change in policy.

The difference is that in 2020 around 300 BA FOs will become unfrozen, so will have a valid fleet-change bid.

[RexBanner]

If you are frozen on type, you are frozen on type. How can you say the company is getting worse and worse when so many hundreds of long haul DEPs have been recruited onto long haul ahead of frozen internal pilots just in the last few years alone? As far as I am aware, there has been no change in policy.

I’m not talking about myself (indeed I’m frozen) I’m talking about the many people ahead of me who have valid bids this year (and as Icanseeclearly and Jaffo320 have said it’s in the hundreds) and are being bypassed again by Long Haul DEP. This has an inevitable knock on to the RHS of the Airbus where the people sitting there may well be moving up the MSL but are stagnating in their current position on the P2 Airbus list. Post JSS this is incredibly important. Hence my comments.

[MikeAlpha320]

The hundreds that will be unfrozen in the next few years wont get LH courses straight away once unfrozen. Why would the company 'pay' for airbus FO to do a LH type rating and then have to replace them with another FO on the airbus. They'll just type rate one new DEP onto LH. It's about money. There will be claims of training capacity etc etc but seems fairly simple maths to me. One type rating, or two?

[GS-Alpha]

Are we saying there are currently unfrozen FOs who meet all the current requirements for the A350, being denied moves? As for the hundreds unfreezing next year; I do not believe any current offers will be for next year’s intake, so we will have to wait a while yet before worrying about that.

[GS-Alpha]

The hundreds that will be unfrozen in the next few years wont get LH courses straight away once unfrozen. Why would the company 'pay' for airbus FO to do a LH type rating and then have to replace them with another FO on the airbus. They'll just type rate one new DEP onto LH. It's about money. There will be claims of training capacity etc etc but seems fairly simple maths to me. One type rating, or two?
It does indeed cost money, but agreements cost money, as do salaries. Training will probably be a nightmare next year with lots of jumbos leaving and A350s arriving. Plenty of shorthaul FOs will be denied moves to long haul, but if I were a betting man, I would wager it will be because the vast majority of P350s will come from current 747 FOs.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

I’m talking about the many people ahead of me who have valid bids this year (and as Icanseeclearly and Jaffo320 have said it’s in the hundreds) and are being bypassed again by Long Haul DEP.
Sure, there are freeze periods for the various fleets, but I am not aware that anybody can automatically expect to move from SH to LH just because their freeze period has expired. If the projected calendar requires pilots in place when a new fleet is coming on line, and a soon-to-be-unfrozen pilot misses the seats available, whilst unfortunate for said pilot, there is little they can do about it. It is largely just a case of bad luck on the timing.

It beats me why a bunch of new joiners don't club together and mount a legal challenge against the application of seniority in BA -open and shut case.
I am sure that this is because it isn't an open and shut case. If it was, someone would have leapt at it long before now.

[VinRouge]

It does indeed cost money, but agreements cost money, as do salaries. Training will probably be a nightmare next year with lots of jumbos leaving and A350s arriving. Plenty of shorthaul FOs will be denied moves to long haul, but if I were a betting man, I would wager it will be because the vast majority of P350s will come from current 747 FOs.
Extra crews will be required for 4x 777-300 due to crewing ratio. At some stage fleet numbers will also have to be expanded above break even to account for arrival of 777-9 in 2021 timelines. My bet is both 78 and 77 will be overcrewed at some point to allow rapid re-training due to type similarities between 77/78 and 777-9. My guess is most of this will come from 747 and DEP, with a350 moves coming from SH. Cross training has to be much cheaper than a full type rating, both in training costs and salary.

Not sure whether there is a shorter course for 320/321 to 350 but if there is, costs alone indicate it makes sense for a shorter more productive course to be allocated?

[GS-Alpha]

I believe the A320 to A350 conversion is a smaller training footprint so that could indeed result in the company preferring to send people from shorthaul to the A350 as you say. I’d also say generally, the more senior 747 SFOs prefer to stick with Boeing so that too would have them preferring the 777 courses you predict. However, the surplus 747 guys will have to go somewhere and they definitely won’t be favouring short haul. I’m sure the vast majority of those released from short haul will indeed be destined for the A350 and A380, simply because the more senior 747 guys moving will have bids in for the Boeing courses. However, the less senior 747 guys (once Boeing courses are filled) will end up on A350 and A380 ahead of short haul. I think this will all happen naturally as a result of general bidding tendencies though, and will have very little to do with training costs, even though the two drivers correlate. Basically as a generalisation, the more senior who haven’t already headed to Airbus prefer to stay Boeing, which will result in those courses filling up first.

[Buter]

Can’t be many seats available on the 380, my friend. Pretty surprised that we’ve got 2 DEP’s in training, tbh.

Cheers

Buter

[VinRouge]

. Basically as a generalisation, the more senior who haven’t already headed to Airbus prefer to stay Boeing, which will result in those courses filling up first.

many of the senior FOs are actually electing for SH command... especially those a ways off LH command but with enough seniority to have a cushy lifestyle on SH, with the extra Moolah command brings.

[Fursty Ferret]

I’m talking about the many people ahead of me who have valid bids this year (and as Icanseeclearly and Jaffo320 have said it’s in the hundreds) and are being bypassed again by Long Haul DEP.

I don't think this is anything new at BA. Happened at some point to everyone who joined in the last decade.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yep, agree with the Ferret. I wanted LH when I joined, was A320 rated and was offered and accepted a start date for SH as “no LH places available”. The next week 4 guys from my base at ezy got offered DEP 747. Just the way it is. Get a start date, get your seniority number and after 5 years you have a lot options.

A LH DEP will be disproportionately junior for much longer than someone who does the initial freeze on SH. Whether that is a price worth paying to bypass the A320 rostering is down to personal circumstance/prior experience and, most importantly, perspective. Seniority is everything in BA. I can’t see that changing any time soon.

[Mooney_tunes]

Has anyone recently attended Stage 2? Any latest info on interview and group exercise? Thanks a lot!!!

[hard_landing]

I know the recruitment cycle finished on 30th June, but any idea if recruitment will reopen later this year?

[Heisenb3rg]

Has anyone recently been for stage 3 assessment and went for a practice Sim before hand? If so, could you let me know the details of where you went? Preferably in the south east! Thanks

Also any tips on the actual Sim would be much appreciated

[bex88]

Full? Yet we have bronze command due to a shortage of flight crew. I understand if they upgrade to a silver command call that a tray of sandwiches is delivered so watch this space.

[Jumbo2]

Full? Yet we have bronze command due to a shortage of flight crew. I understand if they upgrade to a silver command call that a tray of sandwiches is delivered so watch this space.



Is that Bronze command to desperately find an excuse to blame it on since they can't blame it on our bidding anymore under JSS :)

[737275]

Good Evening All

I've got a Day 1 Assesment coming up, in a couple of weeks. (2nd try). I’ve been reviewing with “Job Test Prep”, and was wondering if anyone who had been through Day 1 recently would be willing to share their experience or have any advice on other sources for revision material.

Thanks in advance.

[Heisenb3rg]

If you pass stage 3 sim assessment and get placed in the pool, do you get told if you on the “long haul eligible” list or is it just a generic “your I the hold pool” email?

[Heisenb3rg]

I believe if you don’t get the long haul tick the email says short haul pool. Otherwise, it’s congratulations you’ve passed and it could be any aircraft in the fleet.

Thanks for that. I figured that must be the case!

[Steve1988]

Ladies & Gents, good evening,

Just got the invitation to come over to LHR next month for the 1st stage. Any tips on a good prep? Thanks in advance!

Stephan

[BleedingOn]

Tips: broadening your question to include Ladies?

[Steve1988]

Tips: broadening your question to include Ladies?



better..;)?

[SissySkinner]

Anyone in the pool know when the last job offers went out? Heard there were some recent 350 offers sent out

[CaptainPugwash12]

Hi when did BA Direct Entry Modular pilot close, when does it open again? Thanks.

[TommiW]

Hi when did BA Direct Entry Modular pilot close, when does it open again? Thanks.

DEP modular closed at the end of May. Sorry, don't know when it might re-open. I'm still waiting to be given an interview date from that one

[Plastic787]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Anyone not turning up for their duty today has had their pay deducted for the entire trip (e.g. 5 - 6 day) not just the days of the strike. It has also been deducted at the credited hours for that trip even though the flight has been cancelled. Office workers would be penalised by one day of pay for each day they didn't work. BA pilots have been penalised by the whole cost of the trip at their full rate. Some have calculated that at this rate of deduction, they will have a negative pay check after missing two rostered trips on strike days.

Additionally, all have lost staff travel for 3 years, lost any company wide bonus for this year, lost any pilot only bonus for 2017-19 as negotiated two years ago, no access to overtime rate to pick up trips (this is probably fair enough), plus no chance to bid for a fleet change on long haul - for ever ! This punishment has been in the planning for several weeks as the emails were sent out within hours of a failed report. If anyone thinks this is not a predetermined program by BA to break BALPA and the pilots then they are being naïve.

So if anyone thinks it will be better to cave in now and accept the consequences, the above shows the aims of BA. Break the pilots and tear up any industrial agreements. I feel sorry for the guys with long careers ahead if this is allowed to happen.

Anyone considering applying to this company under the current Leadership team, have a good hard look at this post, talk to a few people on the inside and have a good hard think about whether this is the kind of company you want to work for. The intimidatory tactics used on pilots including potentially illegal salary deductions and the complete lack of a duty of care towards its employees (there are stories floating around of non striking pilots who are sole carers for their children being stuck downroute, who have now been told to make their own way home). The behaviour of the company at this point is disgusting and where are the CAA in all this when pilots are being coerced with threats of massive pay deductions way in excess of one day’s worth of strike action? The impact on the mental health of its workforce cannot be understated and is a flight safety risk when they come back to work.

I wouldn’t wish this company on my worst enemy right now.

[Percula]

Has anyone been called yet for a start date in the new year?

[wiggy]

Has anyone been called yet for a start date in the new year?

Just a very carefully considered word to the wise...I take it everybody is keeping a very close eye on developments at BA at the moment?

[boeing89]

Just a very carefully considered word to the wise...I take it everybody is keeping a very close eye on developments at BA at the moment?

Are you suggesting that the business may be at risk because of what has been happening?

[Doug E Style]

Are you suggesting that the business may be at risk because of what has been happening?

I don’t think he’s suggesting that at all. I took it to mean that in light of current events prospective joiners should be fully aware of what sort of “organisation” they are trying to get into.

[boeing89]

I don’t think he’s suggesting that at all. I took it to mean that in light of current events prospective joiners should be fully aware of what sort of “organisation” they are trying to get into.

Thanks. Yes absolutely. I certainly hope a solution can be found soon...not good for anyone.

[wiggy]

I don’t think he’s suggesting that at all. I took it to mean that in light of current events prospective joiners should be fully aware of what sort of “organisation” they are trying to get into.






Thanks Doug, that's it in nutshell.

Just to be clear - I'm not suggesting for one moment the "business may be at risk".

I am suggesting if that BALPA lose their influence as a result of the current difficulties then potential new joiners would be wise to reassess where BA pilots' T&Cs ( e.g. rostering, days off down route, hotel standards) might be headed.

[Jwscud]

They are still working on the manpower plan for next year so unlikely to hear anything yet. Expect to get three months notice pretty much on the dot if you are slated for January.

[SissySkinner]

December start dates have gone out.

When did these offers go out?

[Jock Trapped]

and for which fleet(s)?!

[Plastic787]

Definitely do not just gloss over the warning I posted further up the thread. The behaviour from management has been utterly disgusting and I’m now ashamed to be a part of this airline. Management in the desert couldn’t even hope to exceed some of the abhorrent things that have been happening. You are not escaping that kind of culture by coming to BA, in fact it may be out of the frying pan into the fire considering your salary for enduring such things will be considerably less. Make no mistake, British Airways with the incumbent management is a horrible place to work.

[SOPS]

What is going on at BA. I always thought that they were THE airline to work for?

[wiggy]

What is going on at BA. I always thought that they were THE airline to work for?


If the scheduling Industrial Agreement goes forever or is suspended ( as it was end of last week, albeit temporarily) then its probably a reasonable assumption that it will be EASA rules on all fleets. We now know sectors such as LHR-DEN with two pilots (i.e; no crew augmentation) on the 744, or YVR-LHR on the 380, also non-augmented, are something that the company will expect people to operate.

I guess if that sort of rostering floats a person's boat then yep, it might still be the THE airline to work for.

[dubaiwarrior]

Anyone have an upcoming Stage 3 sim that would be keen to do some practise 9th or 10th Oct? Please PM me. Many thanks!

=======================

Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.

[AlsWings]

Is someone inside BA able to clarify the requirements to upgrade to the left seat SH? I have been through most of this thread and I understand you require seniority, but I’ve also seen reference to hours too. Some posters seem to suggest a figure of 3000 - is this hours or number of the seniority list, or both?

If you joined today what would be an approximate seniority number?

[Plastic787]

That’s hours. Not sure of the exact number but sounds about right. I’m terms of seniority I wouldn’t worry about that as Gatwick commands have gone right to the bottom of the list, you’d probably get an OK bid in the first window.

I keep posting this right now but it’s very, very important. Be fundamentally aware that this company is absolutely toxic and the atmosphere poisonous. It’s going to take a hell of a lot to fix this after the dispute has ended and it’s difficult to imagine how it could ever happen absent a complete change at the top and also a complete overhaul of flight ops management. If we lose this dispute then 2 crew three day West Coast slipping in an airport hotel are next on the agenda. Not only does it point to absolute exhaustion and hellish rosters for any junior FOs on Long Haul (not to mention the rest of us!) but you also have to think of the amount of pilots BA can get rid of if they’re only using 2 crew on many of the LH routes. Does that fill you with confidence being #4500 on the MSL? It’s vitally important to think about this bit before you take the plunge.

I joined BA and throughly regret it now. I would urge extreme caution to anybody thinking of joining right now at the very least. If you want my honest opinion I would say run a mile. If you’re getting a quick command and doing the hours then buggering off somewhere else quickly then that’s just about the only justification to join this outfit right now IMVHO.

[wiggy]

Certainly a wise aviator considering his/her options and BA should recognise that the future shape of any agreements regarding commands, command upgrades, aspirational bidding between fleets and seats and a thousand and one other things such as rostering, hotels, etc. is completely dependent on the outcome of the current dispute.

[Toolonginthisjob]

I joined BA and throughly regret it now.
Where are you planning to go?

[Plastic787]

Where are you planning to go?

I think the only option right now is to take the LHS at Gatwick, get the hours and go somewhere else as DEC ASAP. Personally I’d go back to easyJet or just do China for ten years. Trouble is in the light of current events that might become a very popular course of action and hence the seniority for Gatwick command less easily achievable.

[AlsWings]

That’s hours. Not sure of the exact number but sounds about right. I’m terms of seniority I wouldn’t worry about that as Gatwick commands have gone right to the bottom of the list, you’d probably get an OK bid in the first window.


Thanks for this. So how does the bidding work? Is it open for a set period once a year or something like that? I have plenty of hours, but need to decide if it’s worth the gamble and not to mention the prep for the NASA computer assessment.

P.S. no rose tinted glasses here. Thank you for your honesty.

[Right Engine]

I feel a tad more optimistic about the BA/BALPA relationship in the future but that is because the union will win. The choices being made at the top of the IAG tree continue to be disproportionately aggressive but also idiotic. The Union continue to plod away, playing a gentleman’s game.

Yes it it would be toxic if the company roll over the BALPA members. But they won’t.
Solidarity in the high 90’s%. We know how this will end.

[pilotpete123]

Does that fill you with confidence being #4500 on the MSL? It’s vitally important to think about this bit before you take the plunge.



Is that really what the feeling is these days? I would have thought the biggest appeal of BA was that it is the closest thing to a job for life that you can get in this industry? I thought that this dispute was about the pay deal? Is it actually bigger than that?

[wiggy]

Is that really what the feeling is these days? I would have thought the biggest appeal of BA was that it is the closest thing to a job for life that you can get in this industry? I thought that this dispute was about the pay deal? Is it actually bigger than that?

It is much much much bigger than just a pay deal..

If BALPA "lose" badly and end up emasculated it is questionable if they will be in a position to strongly defend all other aspects of T&Cs that the company have already made clear they want to change. We are talking about aspects of the job such as the hotel standards/location agreement, the remaining elements of Bidline which govern aspects of the working life such as crew compliments, length of working days, time off downroute.

I do tend to agree, fingers crossed, with Right Engine's sentiment about how it will work out, but if it doesn't............

[pilotpete123]

If BALPA "lose" badly

What constitutes losing? I mean, the average pilot probably has enough money in the bank to strike for a good few days without having to give house keys to the bank. Could BA really win an all-out war given the almost unanimous pilot support and the amount that the first strike action has cost?

[wiggy]

What constitutes losing?

Good question. If, within a year of the end of the current dispute, we see the likes of LHR-LAX-LHR routinely rostered as a nightstop, or the places such as Denver or Vancouver routinely operated with non-augmented crew then I'd say it had ended badly for the association.

I mean, the average pilot probably has enough money in the bank to strike for a good few days without having to give house keys to the bank. Could BA really win an all-out war given the almost unanimous pilot support and the amount that the first strike action has cost?

Not sure how the many of the junior paypointers at BA, especially those nursing loans, sit relative the average UK pilot. FWIW the association and colleagues at BA are offering support for those who aren't flush with funds.

[Pulluptoga]

I have to agree with all the comments made about the BA management culture above. I wanted to add a word of warning for people reading this thread from continental Europe and willing to commute : be aware that BA is pretty much an anti-commuter company. They will treat you as a child and dig up into your commuting habits (if they believe you have arrived at Heathrow in the evening too late before an early report the next day, you’ll get a phone call). If you are unlucky and the flight you are commuting on is cancelled for any reason and you miss your report, they will have a go at you (which is very much unfair - what’s the difference between a commuter missing report due to cancelled flight VS a local pilot missing report due to an accident on the motorway...). As a result, most commuters would rather call sick rather than phoning ops to let them know they will be late for report due to an issue with their commuting flight... Add to that management of fear the whole Brexit disaster and the uncertainties it creates for non-UK citizen and now you know why I can’t wait to find a job elsewhere!

[Phantom4]

Class Clown Cruz has told The Training Department to reduce ‘its simulator footprint’
Klaus addressed Standards Training Captains meeting and told them they are placing too much emphasis on safety.
These are very worrying statements.

[Pulluptoga]

Class Clown Cruz has told The Training Department to reduce ‘its simulator footprint’
Klaus addressed Standards Training Captains meeting and told them they are placing too much emphasis on safety.
These are very worrying statements.


The same Klaus who failed his 787 proficiency check? 😂

[g118]

Any new on when to expect sim dates to become available?

[capt.sparrow]

Few and far between - when one appears grab it, as it will be gone within minutes.

[Twiglet1]

I have to agree with all the comments made about the BA management culture above. I wanted to add a word of warning for people reading this thread from continental Europe and willing to commute : be aware that BA is pretty much an anti-commuter company. They will treat you as a child and dig up into your commuting habits (if they believe you have arrived at Heathrow in the evening too late before an early report the next day, you’ll get a phone call). If you are unlucky and the flight you are commuting on is cancelled for any reason and you miss your report, they will have a go at you (which is very much unfair - what’s the difference between a commuter missing report due to cancelled flight VS a local pilot missing report due to an accident on the motorway...). As a result, most commuters would rather call sick rather than phoning ops to let them know they will be late for report due to an issue with their commuting flight... Add to that management of fear the whole Brexit disaster and the uncertainties it creates for non-UK citizen and now you know why I can’t wait to find a job elsewhere!
As my old DFO always told me - Commuters should only be able to do what I can roster within the FTL (and to their credit BALPA never had an issue with that statement)
Same old DFO had a yellow card system in place for those who missed report due to examples such as above - and that was with a relatively mature FRMS in place.
BA may well be anti-commuter that's basically down to the EASA regulations on AOC responsibilities and the law should it all go wrong. EASA also enhances crewmembers responsibilities to this effect also.
Let us know when you end up "elsewhere".....

[Toolonginthisjob]

be aware that BA is pretty much an anti-commuter company. They will treat you as a child and dig up into your commuting habits (if they believe you have arrived at Heathrow in the evening too late before an early report the next day, you’ll get a phone call).
That’s not really true though, is it? BA have a number of pilots who commute from as far away as Australia, South Africa, and the West Coast of Canada and the USA. Plus very many other countries. Many union reps do! Provided they are sensible, there isn’t really a problem. Comparing those travel arrangements to people who commute by car is also a bit lop-sided. Those who commute by air, generally do so almost exclusively facilitated by British Airways themselves. These arrangements leave a footprint, easily audited by BA. Indeed not doing so, may lead to BA leaving themselves open to criticism. Is it any surprise in the post Colgan world, that BA occasionally peruse a small sample of employees’ arrangements? Of course all employees should never forget they work for a London based airline.

Incidentally. I thought the rumour was that recruitment is being significantly scaled back for 2020, and potentially beyond. Make of that what you will.

[boeing89]

Incidentally. I thought the rumour was that recruitment is being significantly scaled back for 2020, and potentially beyond. Make of that what you will.




Does anyone know how much truth there is in this? Or about the implications for those of us currently in the SH holdpool? Last update I had was to expect Jan/Feb start.

[NLP]

That’s not really true though, is it? BA have a number of pilots who commute from as far away as Australia, South Africa, and the West Coast of Canada and the USA. Plus very many other countries. Many union reps do! Provided they are sensible, there isn’t really a problem.







Actually it is very true. It's part of the reason I left BA. I received a phone call for arriving at LHR at 20:45 for a 6:00 report the next day. BA is not the airline it used to be.

[Toolonginthisjob]

It's part of the reason I left BA
So not at all to do with the fact that your own national flag carrier were recruiting from non KLM Flight School then?

[Buter]

So not at all to do with the fact that your own national flag carrier were recruiting from non KLM Flight School then?
*part

Cheers

Buter

[RexBanner]

Toolonginthisjob stop trying to defend BA on this issue. Colgan Air for starters had virtually nothing to do with commuting, as an ex Dash 8 Pilot and having read the report it is pretty clear what happened. Two unfit pilots (both reported to work unfit through illness rather than fatigue - you can hear them coughing and spluttering on the CVR) and both less than competent aviators (not my opinion look at the training record of the Captain prior to the accident) managed to react completely inappropriately to a stall warning that was set at an artificially high speed. In addition to the captain pulling back on the stick in response to a stall warning (huh?) the First Officer inexplicably decided out of nowhere to dump the flaps at the same time as the nose high attitude.

Why the hell should a short commuting flight (by which I’m talking one of an hour or so) be included in the FTL’s for the duty in question? You’re a passenger and you’re not part of the operating crew, sitting there as pax is far less tiring than doing the equivalent time on a motorway as a driver which many people do every day. I fail to see the distinction here as to why one activity has to be factored into FTL’s but one doesn’t despite being scientifically more tiring.

Anyway we’re rehashing old ground. I just wanted to put the record straight as regards to Colgan because the commuting thing gets trotted out every time we talk about that accident but it wasn’t contributory.

[wiggy]

The important point still remains.

BA have made it clear they will monitor "commuting" :ugh:, and rest prior to duty in minute detail, and managers will chase individuals if they think they have spotted something that they (the manager) doesn't like..

It is something prospective joiners need to be fully aware of.

[Meikleour]

NLP: you seem to miss the point. The commuter has to look at his/her travel plans and ask himself this - "could my company ask me to do this legally ie. position and then operate? " If the answer is NO then do not do it! References to people doing excessive drives to work are irrelevant.

[Toolonginthisjob]

Very sadly, a few BA pilots were taking the proverbial, when it came to commuting by air. This was often brought to BA’s attention by the operating crew of the miscreants commuting flight. BA have the ability to monitor the arrangements of people who’s travel BA themselves facilitate. Indeed, they may be deemed negligent if they do not. So on occasion (once?) BA have sampled a few colleagues’ arrangements. A mere phone call, if necessary, is the only result.

Rex Banner. I’m not defending BA. I’m ‘defending’ safety. Some of the stories of which I am aware, were blatant, arrogant and outrageous!

It’s often the case that a few, spoil things for the many. But here we are!

[wiggy]

So on occasion (once?) BA have sampled a few colleagues’ arrangements. A mere phone call, if necessary, is the only result.


I think the sampling is now planned to be done at the very least on an annual basis, and TBH being risk averse I've assumed for a while now it's an ongoing process and arranged my travel accordingly.

As for your second point - I have been led to believe that for a small number of our colleagues the result was more than just a phone call.

Fundamentally anyone who flies into LGW/LHR prior to duty ( on the day or even the day before) shouldn't be surprised if their travel arrangements and their rest arrangements are scrutinised by the company.

[Tricia Takanawa]

"Incidentally. I thought the rumour was that recruitment is being significantly scaled back for 2020, and potentially beyond. Make of that what you will."


Im not privy to much beyond flying with the occasional trainer or recruitment pilot, but I was recently told that we needed over 300 pilots next year. Our Manpower Planning Manager updated 2 weeks ago that there should be a decent amount of movement in 2020.

But things do change quickly in this game! Would be interested to know if this was from a reliable source or galley FM, as I have 2 friends stuck at various stages in the recruitment system at the moment.

[Percula]

Im not privy to much beyond flying with the occasional trainer or recruitment pilot, but I was recently told that we needed over 300 pilots next year. Our Manpower Planning Manager updated 2 weeks ago that there should be a decent amount of movement in 2020.

But things do change quickly in this game! Would be interested to know if this was from a reliable source or galley FM, as I have 2 friends stuck at various stages in the recruitment system at the moment.

I've been sitting in the hold pool for over 6 months now. We have been told that we should be starting in the first quarter of 2020. Fingers crossed.

[Percula]

As I said in my earlier posts some LH slots have gone out to some out our gig. 1 guy did his SIM back in Feb starting December other guy I think March.
Only recently has the pool been so low before that 1-2 years in the pool was common.

A lot of people are waiting for SH start dates, hence the wait.

[capt.sparrow]

A lot of people are waiting for SH start dates, hence the wait.

How would you know if you are LH elligible or SH only pool swimmers? Do they actually tell you?

[Percula]

How would you know if you are LH elligible or SH only pool swimmers? Do they actually tell you?

Yes, they do.

[capt.sparrow]

Yes, they do.
​​​​​​
they haven't told me! Or is it a case of specifically mentioning SH if not LH elligible then?

[Heisenb3rg]

​​​​​​
they haven't told me! Or is it a case of specifically mentioning SH if not LH elligible then?

I believe if you are SH only the email says “A320 hold pool” and if you’re deemed eligible for LH then it just says “hold pool”.

[Morris Ogg]

Hi all,

Any new start dates rolled out for 2020 for DEP’s?
I’ve been in the hold pool since June this year. Wonder when they’ll start the 2020 training!

[boeing89]

Hi all,

Any new start dates rolled out for 2020 for DEP’s?
I’ve been in the hold pool since June this year. Wonder when they’ll start the 2020 training!

I’m in the same boat as you Morris Ogg. Been in the hold pool since May...previously told to expect a start in Jan-Feb but not sure if that still holds true. Fingers crossed though!

[Jock Trapped]

I’m in the same boat as you Morris Ogg. Been in the hold pool since May...previously told to expect a start in Jan-Feb but not sure if that still holds true. Fingers crossed though!

Same here, it’s all gone very quiet. Wondering if TCX, Brexit, IA all have a bearing on 2020 requirements?

[122.85]

Hi, I’m thinking about applying when they next open up, but am only fussed about long haul, is it unheard of for someone who isn’t able to unfreeze to go directly to long haul? Or is it 100% required to be able to unfreeze?


If you are talking about having an fATPL and looking to go long haul at BA then I beleive the answer is no, you need an ATPL for the long haul fleet.

[clvf88]

Hi, I’m thinking about applying when they next open up, but am only fussed about long haul, is it unheard of for someone who isn’t able to unfreeze to go directly to long haul? Or is it 100% required to be able to unfreeze?


ATPL required, due requirement for FOs to become acting PIC when in-flight rest facilities are in use.

[VinRouge]

ATPL required, due requirement for FOs to become acting PIC when in-flight rest facilities are in use.
unless you have the hours and just need the type rating to unlock the licence.

[corporaljones]

Given what’s happened recently and how the workforce has been treated im amazed anyone is still actually considering the move

[clvf88]

unless you have the hours and just need the type rating to unlock the licence.

Very true. I know people who have done the ATPL check items as part of their initial LST and then applied for the licence. What I should have said is you need an ATPL, or have all required hours to apply for one.

[Jock Trapped]

Given what’s happened recently and how the workforce has been treated im amazed anyone is still actually considering the move

I take your point, but for those of us having gone through the long process that is BA recruitment, presumably because what may be on offer is still better than where we are, it’d be nice to have some idea of what may be available instead of just treading water waiting to drown. Perhaps for some the future hinges on what fleet (SH/LH) is offered, but would be nice to know.

[corporaljones]

I take your point, but for those of us having gone through the long process that is BA recruitment, presumably because what may be on offer is still better than where we are, it’d be nice to have some idea of what may be available instead of just treading water waiting to drown. Perhaps for some the future hinges on what fleet (SH/LH) is offered, but would be nice to know.

yeh fair enough, all the best and I genuinely hope it works for you 👍

[Phantom4]

Ten years ago the hold pool was drained due financial crisis knock on and swimmers had to reapply two years later if they felt the need.
i don’t think that will repeat and 2020 courses will be available and those in hold pool dovetailed in to courses where required.
Six 787 and further seven 350s to be delivered by end 2020.
Good luck

[Percula]

I've been swimming since April. Still expecting a Q1 2020 start.

[Biggles88]

Same, been swimming since March. Last told a start date Jan/Feb and would be told Sep/poss Oct. It’s all gone very quite recently. I think the T’cook situation is likely to have a big impact on our start dates.

[boeing89]

Same, been swimming since March. Last told a start date Jan/Feb and would be told Sep/poss Oct. It’s all gone very quite recently. I think the T’cook situation is likely to have a big impact on our start dates.

Any idea whether BA have actually taken on guys/girls from Thomas Cook?

[wiggy]

Any idea whether BA have actually taken on guys/girls from Thomas Cook?


If you mean "taken on," as putting through interview/selection - don't know...if you mean "taken on" as in actually working for BA, I'd suggest very strongly that the answer is no.

Reason being in as some of you will find out BA very works very very much by "process" and personally, IMVHO, I can't see BA side stepping the whole current recruiting system and bypassing those in the DEP hold pool to get ex Thomas Cook pilots on-line...but that's just my take on it..

I think UK/world economic factors are going to have a much bigger effect on uptake from the hold pool than the demise of Thomas Cook.

[wiggy]

Thanks for the update.

[Phantom4]

TC Pilots are of particular attraction if they are A330/350 rated

[FoxChaRomeo]

Any idea whether BA have actually taken on guys/girls from Thomas Cook?



I was in the hood pool when Monarch went bust, and no one jumped the queue to the best of my knowledge.

As doubtless you know, seniority is king at BA, which essentially starts with your sim assessment date. That is the order in which start date offers are given (fleet/LH/SH specific of course, depending on requirements).

And so I’d expect BA to follow that script this time. They got a bit of stick for not doing what VS did, who made a big noise about offering opportunities to Monarch pilots, but as Wiggy says, the company are very process driven.
And the reality is that Virgin likely made a noise to generate some good PR, and the number of MON pilots they took on ahead of those they had already assessed was probably very very small...

FCR

[boeing89]

Thanks to wiggy, flying11red, phantom4 and FCR...all really interesting insights :ok:

[Heisenb3rg]

Also keep in mind that they surely want as much flexibility RE: fleet planning as they can get. Given most people have a 3 month notice period, it seems logical that they’d offer people start dates with 3 months and 1 day to go, with 1 day to respond to the offer.

All that to say: for start dates in Feb they don’t need to make the offer until the end of November at the latest.

H

[Serenity]

How come people in the hold pool are starting courses before those already in the pool??
As you say, are BA not process driven, therefore we should all be in order. ?
swimming since March.

[Jock Trapped]

How come people in the hold pool are starting courses before those already in the pool??
As you say, are BA not process driven, therefore we should all be in order. ?
swimming since March.

I think (or at least hope) it is based on time in the pool with “all other things being equal” ie if a candidate is eligible for the 350 they may get that LH course ahead of others, or perhaps already rated on the 320 and get a shorter course. Grateful to anyone on the inside for thoughts on this. Swimming since about then also and clearly not in those categories!

[wiggy]

I think that's the underlying query. I can only repeat that I'm highly sceptical, it's not the "BA way"....the only justification for any jumping that does happen might be the sort of scenario Jock Trapped has described.

[Saab0409]

A few TCX pilots have been prioritised, screened, offers made, accepted and have start dates. Mix of 320/350 offers. Not a lot and not a threat to remaining hold poolers. Don’t know exact numbers but this is from a trainer.

For 2020 the numbers vary greatly. Brexit, possible economic downturn, TCX demise, perhaps another airline going bankrupt in LGW, who knows? It all has a massive impact on recruitment. Even the IA going on will influence the bean counters. And that’s the biggest point, we need pilots, desperately. But not a single one has been approved yet by the budget. The airline is run by finances, they approve the budget and then flight OPS will try their best to make it work. Frustrating for all. We on the line feel the beating of the whip and could use the extra ladies and gents!

Before anybody asks, numbers ranging from 0 recruitment (highly unlikely) to 400 (highly unlikely) for next year. So somewhere in the middle? I joined BA 2 years ago on SH, gave up a regional jet command. Is it perfect? No, far from it. But after surviving three struggling airlines, this is a breath of fresh air!

is it hard work? Yes. Am I happy I did it? Yes. Long term vision is key. I couldn’t see myself commuting to a 6-3 pattern regional job on an old jet. 4-5 sectors a day for the rest of my career. Get in, do your thing, have fun on the line (interesting destinations and lovely people to fly with 99 out of a 100).

Just my two cents

[VinRouge]

is it hard work? Yes. Am I happy I did it? Yes. Long term vision is key. I couldn’t see myself commuting to a 6-3 pattern regional job on an old jet. 4-5 sectors a day for the rest of my career. Get in, do your thing, have fun on the line (interesting destinations and lovely people to fly with 99 out of a 100).

Just my two cents

Fully agree with this. Yes, hard work but a unified work force able to fight for (arguably) te best T and C in the industry. My only regret is not making the move 4 years previous.

[wiggy]

A few TCX pilots have been prioritised, screened, offers made, accepted and have start dates. Mix of 320/350 offers. Not a lot and not a threat to remaining hold poolers. Don’t know exact numbers but this is from a trainer.






Ah well, sounds unusual but shows even after all this time :oh: every day is a school day when it come to understanding the BA way..

TBH I can't see how anybody recently made redundant by TCX having already been given start dates doesn't potentially "threaten" in some way shape or form some of those remaining in the hold pool, but I think I'd best leave that for others better placed to debate.

Thanks for the update.

[VJW]

Fully agree with this. Yes, hard work but a unified work force able to fight for (arguably) te best T and C in the industry. My only regret is not making the move 4 years previous.


Best T&C’s in the industry? That’ll be a hell of a fight to achieve this- as a new joiner you don’t even have as good a T&C as your slightly longer serving colleagues.

Additionally, if TCX holdpoolers have been prioritised that’s a bit of a joke. It’d definitely jeopardise everyone in the holdpool they’ve leapfrogged, it’s simply has to have done. At the very least it’s put them up the seniority list which in itself is a joke. I wonder if BA called everyone in the hold pool to ask if they’re still in work, or just assumed it’s only TCX crew that aren’t working since applying. I doubt it.

[3Greens]

Best T&C’s in the industry? That’ll be a hell of a fight to achieve this- as a new joiner you don’t even have as good a T&C as your slightly longer serving colleagues.

Additionally, if TCX holdpoolers have been prioritised that’s a bit of a joke. It’d definitely jeopardise everyone in the holdpool they’ve leapfrogged, it’s simply has to have done. At the very least it’s put them up the seniority list which in itself is a joke. I wonder if BA called everyone in the hold pool to ask if they’re still in work, or just assumed it’s only TCX crew that aren’t working since applying. I doubt it.




mate, if things like this wind you up to that extent I’d suggest BA may not be for you. You’ll need a much stronger give a “F@@k ‘ometer “ to survive at this outfit.

[Granzer291]

Hi all,

In the pool....No updates...Did anyone hear or any indication of any movement?
Are they waiting for 31st Oct :P (Brexit)

[GS-Alpha]

There is always a whole lot of chopping and changing of the coming year’s flying plan at this time of year. They tend to need to have a clear idea of the plan for internal movements before they can finalise plans for new recruits, and as a result there is always a lack of information and then a sudden mad rush to train up new recruits. I am sure the Brexit shenanigans, constantly changing ongoing 787 engine issues, pilot strikes, general global economic outlook, and plenty of other variables are causing real headaches for the planners just at the moment.

With regards to who is spending ages in the hold pool and who is not, and what those reasons are, if indeed it is even happening; there really is no point in even asking the question, never mind worrying about it. BA will do as they please and you would have a job on your hands changing the process from within, never mind as an aspiring employee. For what it is worth, the latest figure I have heard is 300 new recruits for next year, so you will all be in soon enough.

[VJW]

mate, if things like this wind you up to that extent I’d suggest BA may not be for you. You’ll need a much stronger give a “F@@k ‘ometer “ to survive at this outfit.

I suspected this a few years ago which is why I’m not there mate.

[Saab0409]

Additionally, if TCX holdpoolers have been prioritised that’s a bit of a joke. It’d definitely jeopardise everyone in the holdpool they’ve leapfrogged, it’s simply has to have done. At the very least it’s put them up the seniority list which in itself is a joke. I wonder if BA called everyone in the hold pool to ask if they’re still in work, or just assumed it’s only TCX crew that aren’t working since applying. I doubt it.


I personally thought it was to be applauded that they’ve finally showed some heart (and of course the fact they have an Airbus rating, but I’d like to think the first) and fast tracked those in desperate need for work. You know, Christmas and mortgages. In these slightly dark times, I welcome this kind of news.

[Xavier999]

Good evening to everyone.
How much chance for a foreign FO tr320f with 1300tt coming from a yellow low cost?
Are they looking for these kind of profiles?
BA it is my dream

[Jwscud]

Those of you swimming have my sympathy. I spent 6 months swimming as I was not Airbus rated at this time of year a few years back. My sim partner who was got in very quickly and is now around 120 places senior to me, which equates to a good year or two difference achieving a long haul command. As frustrating as it is, no point getting fussed about it as it is simply out of your control.

The information flow doesn’t get any better within the company, as those waiting for annual bid results and course dates will testify. The 2020 plan changes pretty much daily for reasons well outside recruitment’s control, but I think GS Alpha is right in that there will be jobs for all in the pool soon enough.

[hans brinker]

Good evening to everyone.
How much chance for a foreign FO tr320f with 1300tt coming from a yellow low cost?
Are they looking for these kind of profiles?
BA it is my dream

Do you have:
The right to live and work in the UK?
A CAA (f)ATPL?
ICAO Level 6 English, spoken and written?
MPA type rating on over 10 Tonnes Acft?
(and I don't think a rating on a JAA license is transferable to a CAA license)

If so, you can apply with City-Flyer, and after 2 years apply to transfer to BA.....

[Xavier999]

Do you have:
The right to live and work in the UK?
A CAA (f)ATPL?
ICAO Level 6 English, spoken and written?
MPA type rating on over 10 Tonnes Acft?
(and I don't think a rating on a JAA license is transferable to a CAA license)

If so, you can apply with City-Flyer, and after 2 years apply to transfer to BA.....

Yes, all of them. I have an EASA one of course. I have still slots available for the direct entry on the mainline.

I would like to know if they like profiles like mine, foreign pilot with not so much experience

Thank to everyone that will answer.
BA it’s my dream

[Jumbo2]

Hi Xavier999,
There are lots of non UK nationals flying for BA. The experience they had when they joined ranged from straight out of flight school to training captains elsewhere before they joined and everything in between.

I would personally strongly advise against joining Cityflyer in order to join BA. You waste 2 years at least while there is absolutely not advantage of applying from Cityflyer to BA. The only benefit is that from Cityflyer you get a guaranteed invitation if you apply vs you have to put in some effort to answer the application (give an example of...) questions properly, but other then that it doesn't really increase your changes of getting in dramatically.

[hans brinker]

Yes, all of them. I have an EASA one of course. I have still slots available for the direct entry on the mainline.

I would like to know if they like profiles like mine, foreign pilot with not so much experience

Thank to everyone that will answer.
BA it’s my dream

Good for you, sorry, shouldn't have assumed you didn't know basic requirements. Go for it, hope it works (I will stay at NK).

[BitMoreRightRudder]

BA it’s my dream

Haven’t heard that for a long time.

[VJW]

Haven’t heard that for a long time.

Don’t work in their recruitment I see ;)

[Granzer291]

Hello guys,

From the latest rumour (which I am sure would be discussed here)...
Maybe start dates for the 1st quarter of 2020 for people in the pool
I don't know if this means starting in Q1 or physically getting a date to turn up in Q1...
Any insight on how these last few months work at BA before the sudden rush to hunt Pilots would be nice? :)

Cheers!

[Jwscud]

Every year they run a number of antiquated and tetchy computer programs to determine how many pilots each fleet and seat needs, and process expected retirements, and internal bids for fleet and seat moves. Every time they think they have a solution, somebody changes the flying plan for next year. This requires a complete re-run, re-plan &c. Once the plan is complete, it needs approval. Finance may elect to trim the plan again, requiring another cycle or two of the above.

Only once this merry go round has ended do they have a plan for what is required, and the pilots get annual bid results. They also know how many new recruits they need, and in what fleets. They may have enough of an inkling before this is all over to make some offers for Jan/Feb but the vast majority of offers are likely to be held back until this process is complete. Last year it was late November...

[3Greens]

Every year they run a number of antiquated and tetchy computer programs to determine how many pilots each fleet and seat needs, and process expected retirements, and internal bids for fleet and seat moves. Every time they think they have a solution, somebody changes the flying plan for next year. This requires a complete re-run, re-plan &c. Once the plan is complete, it needs approval. Finance may elect to trim the plan again, requiring another cycle or two of the above.

Only once this merry go round has ended do they have a plan for what is required, and the pilots get annual bid results. They also know how many new recruits they need, and in what fleets. They may have enough of an inkling before this is all over to make some offers for Jan/Feb but the vast majority of offers are likely to be held back until this process is complete. Last year it was late November...
not helped by the constant over promising and under delivering nature of the head of manpower planning. Seems to be a tad out of his depth.

[bylgw]

The only surety is the result is never correct/enough

[Safety_]

Every year they run a number of antiquated and tetchy computer programs to determine how many pilots each fleet and seat needs, and process expected retirements, and internal bids for fleet and seat moves. Every time they think they have a solution, somebody changes the flying plan for next year. This requires a complete re-run, re-plan &c. Once the plan is complete, it needs approval. Finance may elect to trim the plan again, requiring another cycle or two of the above.

Only once this merry go round has ended do they have a plan for what is required, and the pilots get annual bid results. They also know how many new recruits they need, and in what fleets. They may have enough of an inkling before this is all over to make some offers for Jan/Feb but the vast majority of offers are likely to be held back until this process is complete. Last year it was late November...


Thanks for the Info!
So I guess Pilots finding out results of their Bidding approvals is an indication that there will be some movement in the Pool? I presume they must give at least 3 months notice (or whichever one is required)... Nov end info would make it... March end start? Or am I wrong to say that? Any insight as to how many Pilots they need? (Similar to last year?)

[Twiglet1]

Every year they run a number of antiquated and tetchy computer programs to determine how many pilots each fleet and seat needs, and process expected retirements, and internal bids for fleet and seat moves. Every time they think they have a solution, somebody changes the flying plan for next year. This requires a complete re-run, re-plan &c. Once the plan is complete, it needs approval. Finance may elect to trim the plan again, requiring another cycle or two of the above.

Only once this merry go round has ended do they have a plan for what is required, and the pilots get annual bid results. They also know how many new recruits they need, and in what fleets. They may have enough of an inkling before this is all over to make some offers for Jan/Feb but the vast majority of offers are likely to be held back until this process is complete. Last year it was late November...

You missed the final and most important ingredient - the finger in the air to see which the wind is blowing.....I last got budgeted crew numbers in 1992. You Nigel's are an expensive commodity so any tweaks that can be done will be done - probably not in 1992 - but these days - unlucky

[DelhiBound]

Anyone through to Stage 3 and hoping to get in a bit of sim practice, preferably South of England, but happy to travel if needed?
Still waiting for release of slot dates, but hoping to get some prep in sooner than later.
Please PM me. Looking to share the cost, as well as buddy up with someone on this.

[Percula]

Has anyone in the hold pool been called for a start date yet?

[SissySkinner]

Has anyone in the hold pool been called for a start date yet?


Nope and I haven’t heard of anyone else getting one either. All seems very quiet still