NEWCASTLE - 8

[SWBKCB]

Don't see anything on sale for 2017 so there is the clue.....only available option is via DUB.

No it isn't - service was announced as for this summer followed by a review, same as last year.

Last year the announcement for 2016 was on 17/09/15.

[fl dutchman]

Lets hope thats not true. Loads seem to be decent at the moment.

However the continued fall in the value of the pound and uncertainty must have some effect on this route and others. Will be interesting to look back when we get to Aug 2017 and see what did actually happen to many routes as a result of Brexit.

[SHT13C]

Well the airline told the handling agent yesterday that they are pulling the whole route due to low yields so that's the clue. Will be announced in the next week.

[Heathrow Harry]

"It'll be Brexit's fault no doubt!"

sure as hell hasn't helped................

[LiamNCL]

It was stated last week the Airport will talk with United in the comming weeks we heard the exact same title tattle last year. If it doesnt return then its a shame but late May- early September is hardly like losing a daily year round route like EK.Should UA leave NCL then IMO the Airport should channel the USA connection towards a carrier like Icelandair to open up North America via KEF , Great onwards connections to the States from their hub and already heading in the right direction instead of flying east to AMS or South to busy CDG/LHR

[HH6702]

Service is doing better than last year by around 10% last time I looked at figures.
It still needs another year or 2 to prove it will work.

I wouldn't believe anything until official statements however would seem very odd when papers reporting year round??

Maybe airport has another airline ready to take over (delta, AA??)

[VentureGo]

Just a thought - Could it be possible rumour has started by handling staff (seasonal temporary) have been given notice before end of this year's season, and this has since been added to and exaggerated. Can't see United advising handling agent on an arrangement, before a major meeting with airport executives is planned at the end of this season to discuss/negotiate the service being extended next year -Is there a reliable source for this info. There would be no need to advise handling agent 9 months in advance of a possible May start of a 2017 season.

[skyhawk1]

Just a thought - Could it be possible rumour has started by handling staff (seasonal temporary) have been given notice before end of this year's season, and this has since been added to and exaggerated. Can't see United advising handling agent on an arrangement, before a major meeting with airport executives is planned at the end of this season to discuss/negotiate the service being extended next year -Is there a reliable source for this info. There would be no need to advise handling agent 9 months in advance of a possible May start of a 2017 season.

Seasonal staff starting rumour about next year. Are you real. Check Uniteds website you can book all except Newcastle. If same agent handles UA all over the uk and u could not book flights from NCL they might just ask the question are u coming back. Let's be honest NCL is not going to attract US tourists unless price is good and it's not it's very high. Also 3 months a year is pretty pathetic. Do what EK did. Put on all year for 3 years and then decide. Outcome good loads, good cargo as regular. Result success.

[LiamNCL]

Newcastle wouldnt be on sale anyway surely as stated last week the airport will be talking with United soon about next season. Dont believe all this he said she said until its been confirmed by NCL theirself.

[SHT13C]

Yeah the handling agent staff have been told because that is half of their work. They have a roster and the staff do both the UA and the EK. Your argument for seasonals doesn't stack up because all the staff on the UA EK roster are full time permanent. Once the UA has departed, checkin for the EK opens, so yes I would say that the handling agent would tell their staff. All of the staff on the UA/EK roster were hauled in to the landside management office and told by the Shift Manager that an official announcement would be coming out shortly, but UA have dropped NCL because of poor sales. If you don't believe it, you'll see shortly.

[Jamesair]

There seems little point in the airport having talks with the airline if the decision has already been made. We did have all these rumours last year and then came the announcement of an extra days operation. Another explanation could be they want to change Handling Agent.

In the absence of figures from the CAA for May onwards it is hard to judge how the route is doing but figures appear to be up and Business and premium appear to be having a higher take-up this year which would bump up yield.

[HH6702]

Newcastle will be the only airport in the uk for United not on sale as we are the only airport that is a seasonal service.
What about the other routes to Europe that are seasonal each year are they on sale yet?

Will try and work out the figures again over the next few days haven't had a chance over the last few weeks but June was very good

[BHX5DME]

And the loads ok !

NCL Loads from the seat-maps - 16/45/108 config


Today outbound 10-15-83 = 108 inbound 8-17-103 = 128


Tomorrow outbound 14-20-101 = 135 inbound 9-20-108 = 137


Saturday outbound 14-17-103 = 134 inbound 11-13-104 = 128

[j636]

Newcastle will be the only airport in the uk for United not on sale as we are the only airport that is a seasonal service.
What about the other routes to Europe that are seasonal each year are they on sale yet?

Will try and work out the figures again over the next few days haven't had a chance over the last few weeks but June was very good

Other seasonal routes are on sale.

[EK77WNCL]

I'll wait for the official announcement... I hope they haven't canned us just yet


If they did daily March-October for 2017, then canned it, I'd give them their due... If they announced daily March-October S17 then reduced (4/5 weekly?) winter schedule W17/18 and then decided to can it... I'd respect them for trying their very best

2 seasonal summers, with an increased frequency for the 2nd summer, and then canning it - in my opinion - can't give a representative result regarding demand

[Skipness One Echo]

The first seasonal toe in the water didn't come close to persuading them to go year round off the bat, some routes actually do. The late announcement for 2016 and the fact the route has done OK but not stellar given it is by far the fastest way from NCL to the US and the only non stop service on a hub carrier suggests the market is a little soft for United.
They have only so many B757s and as soon as a better business case for that aircraft's use can be made elsewhere, it's the most mobile of assets, it's gone.

BRS failed as it was too close to LHR, BFS hangs by a thread and subsidy, BHX has plateaued at once daily, twice daily having killed yields. Remember NCL has a number of good options connecting West but only one sensible option going East, that's why Emirates have a true monopoly and United have a seasonal holiday flight. Such a shame IMHO!

[EK77WNCL]

To be honest I doubt anyone will agree with me, but I think more Star Alliance presence at Newcastle would help out - regular travelers could at least have the option of using one alliance, one stop east and west to most destinations, where traveling with existing carriers may require 2 or more stops

If we had a link to Frankfurt, or perhaps Zurich, it would allow people to use Star alliance travelling East and West on different business trips with LH/UA or LX/UA (as well as Brussels Airlines perhaps, most likely for Africa)

It would probably take time to build up the following, but every little helps doesn't it?

If this week's loads are representative of the whole season, I can't see why they wouldn't give us at least one last proper shot... I'm not ready to say goodbye yet

[Logohu]

only one sensible option going East, that's why Emirates have a true monopoly

KLM customers might disagree....

[LiamNCL]

Well we wait and see , If its gone then so be it maybe we may have to wait several years again before any US carrier looks at the route.

[skyhawk1]

Yeah the handling agent staff have been told because that is half of their work. They have a roster and the staff do both the UA and the EK. Your argument for seasonals doesn't stack up because all the staff on the UA EK roster are full time permanent. Once the UA has departed, checkin for the EK opens, so yes I would say that the handling agent would tell their staff. All of the staff on the UA/EK roster were hauled in to the landside management office and told by the Shift Manager that an official announcement would be coming out shortly, but UA have dropped NCL because of poor sales. If you don't believe it, you'll see shortly.

If they are full time permanent what do they do for the 9 months UA don't operate. Also UA have a 170 seat 757, EK a 400 plus 777 so would need more staff

[SHT13C]

United pay for an unbelievable amount of staff bearing in mind that they only have a 757 operating the route. They can easily have 5/6 desks open. I just find it bonkers that they haven't given the route a fair crack of the whip, especially in November/December time for Christmas shoppers etc. It's a shame, but when you can get to the US via Heathrow, Dublin, Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels for significantly cheaper, is it any real surprise?

[HH6702]

Edi have also had an increase in the amount of flights to New York as didn't American and delta come in up there?

[All names taken]

This is such a shame if true. Pity they couldn't have tried a longer season to thoroughly test demand.

It would be easy to blame a number of factors but the marked drop in the pound vs the dollar recently after Brexit must have two main effects:
1. Brits going to the States will find it much more expensive to do so, possibly leading to people planning holidays elsewhere.
2. People paying GBP to buy seats from an airline that does its accounting in USD will mean yields get hammered even if they were good to start with.
I don't know but at a guess I would say the majority of pax on NCL-EWR would fall into both categories.
All sad.

[VentureGo]

RE. Handling agent rumour - There are 3 Agents servicing at Newcastle:

Swissport: Aer Lingus, Air France, Balkan, Citywing, Eastern Airways, Emirates, Eurowings, KLM, Ryanair, SAS, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Wideroe (United?)

Aviator: Air Malta, bmi regional, British Airways, easyJet, Flybe, Onur Air

Jet2.com: Jet2 (Their own agent inhouse)

from: Lost Baggage - Newcastle Airport (http://www.newcastleairport.com/lost-baggage)

[long_final]

Shame if true, but not a surprise. Pax figures have been inconsistent, sometimes respectable while well below 50 on other occasions. Pricing has been high to accommodate the low loads, although there have been bargains to be had with £400 returns.
As someone mentioned before, it would take an awful lot to entice business/frequent travellers to use UA and abandon the air miles with other carriers and nobody is going to commit to this route as it only runs for 3 months and isn't daily...and is always delayed 2 hours. I've been in a position to use it 3 times since it started and on all 3 occasions have ended up using an alternative. The first time was due to price, the other 2 I could get one way but not the other (Wednesday/end of service)
I think if they're going to do it then do it, as EK did, don't waste time with a half @rsed effort. Run it year round, doesn't have to be daily, just try to get people to be confident using it, not a small window of opportunity.

[long_final]

On a brighter (slightly) note, BMI Regional are looking into adding Bergen, however at this stage I'm told the plan is NCL-SVG-BGO-SVG-NCL, (or BGO first) though so no extra flights as such, from NCL at least

[HH6702]

Would be a good move for Bmi let's hope they do it.

[Travel Agent]

Flew the Newcastle - Bergan route via Stavanger many times with Dan Air in the past, it used to go daily at around 12 lunch time if I recall.

[EK77WNCL]

I knew they were going to try that ;) I could see it a mile off with the long turnaround in Stavanger

I hope they do... If there's demand they could split them, 37 seats per day, per destination isn't really very much but it's a start to test the water, and at a good frequency... Would be nice to get the Norwegians coming over to shop again, although cheap as chips flights to London probably mean that's an extremely niche market now

[cram1010]

VentureGo, you are behind the times with your information.
Wideroe, Air Malta and Onur Air no longer operate out of Newcastle and Jet2.com have never been self handling - they only use their own staff for check in.

[GrahamK]

Jet2 do self handle at NCL do they not?

[Chesty Morgan]

Nope, Swissport.

[VentureGo]

VentureGo, you are behind the times with your informationI was only referring to Newcastle Airport's own webpage as I referred to in post. Maybe Newcastle Airport need to keep their web pages up to date.

.from: Lost Baggage - Newcastle Airport (http://www.newcastleairport.com/lost-baggage)

Also, I see they've not yet updated the passenger statistics for June of this year:

Domestic passengers quoted as 9691, where a previous poster has indicated he received a response from NIA who said the true figure was 96910, which seems more in line with year on year comparisons:

Passenger Statistics (http://www.newcastleairport.com/passengerstatistics)

[sunshine79]

Can anyone help me out with a quandary myself and my work colleague are having. I know it's a bit of a long shot with the information. When TCX chartered in a Mint Airways a/c to be based at NCL, the a/c went tech and another one was subbed in. The flight was going to EFL, and he thinks the airline started with a 'B'. The crew refused to fly in as there was only a few pax booked on the OB flight as it was just after the May half term holiday but the IB flight was pretty full. The a/c flew out the next day. Does anyone know which airline was covering the Mint Airways a/c? Thanks in advance

[HH6702]

Sunshine79 can you supply the year and month if possible?

[sunshine79]

June, not sure of the year though, possibly 2011

[GrahamK]

Blue Panorama perhaps, or Astraeus?

[nighthawk117]

A lot of people on here seem to be asking for United to operate a longer summer schedule, or even year round. How exactly is this going to help the route be a success? If you can't fill a 757 in the busy summer months, how exactly are you going to fill it in the winter months?

Apart from a possible peak around Christmas time, there's very little demand in winter. Look at EDI for example - 5 daily flights to the US in the summer, dropping to just 1 (possibly 2) in the winter.

Year round may be better for attracting the loyalty of business passengers, but you still need the tourism traffic to be there in the summer to make the route viable.

Like every other route they have started, it's summer only to gauge demand. Once they see the demand is there, then they will try and operate a winter schedule too.

[Skipness One Echo]

Like every other route they have started, it's summer only to gauge demand. Once they see the demand is there, then they will try and operate a winter schedule too.
Hang on, that's not the case with United (ne Continental).
All their UK regional stations were launched as year round from Day One with the exception of Newcastle where they struggled to do well in the summer peak, perhaps confirming their initial preconceptions. This one's been an oddball tbh from day one.

[nighthawk117]

I stand corrected. I thought Bristol/Belfast had started summer only.

[HH6702]

Belfast went summer only last year but has become year round again but a gap of around 6 weeks between end of Jan and early March

[HH6702]

Ncl could become 1st April to 15th Dec operation maybe??
Maybe daily during the July/Aug 5x weekly may, June and sept then 3 weekly the rest of it

[GrahamK]

Or maybe daily july-august and no flights for the rest of the year. UA/Star don't seem to be able to break the grip that oneWorld/SkyTeam have from NCL over the Atlantic

[VickersVicount]

Cant see any if those haphazard chop and change timetables working, people need persistence and consistence. Short high season programs are not UA normal patterns. I fear its for the ditch. Not sure why OW/*A is any different at NCL than some other UK UA stations

[Skipness One Echo]

Key point is they may well have another destination lined up where another B757 can be used better all year round. Once that happens, it's game over. NCL needs to justify using that aeroplane against a load of other airports on the United network, or even new destinations. If your market is thrice weekly to New York, then you're in Thomas Cook or Jet2 territory.

[HH6702]

Problem I think with ncl is last year United went 2x daily at edi also delta came onto the route daily also at edi giving loads extra seats so close to ncl.
BHX got American as well on the New York.
A lot of extra seats for New York from uk regional.

However saying that United came back to ncl for this summer and also an extra day per week.

If United weren't making money and struggled last summer why would they come back this summer with an extra flight per week.
Both airport and United said they were happy with sales last year.

This year more passengers have been flying the route so this must be good.

Again I think we need to wait until the airport and United have these talks as I think we may get a surprise!!!! ( hope I'm right)

[LiamNCL]

Would of been so much easier if they just ditched the route last year than letting it run 6x weekly this year getting more PAX on the route for them to pull it

[SWBKCB]

Would of been so much easier if they just ditched the route last year

How'd you work that out? Don't understand your logic.

[LiamNCL]

How'd you work that out? Don't understand your logic.

Last year was fairly poor could of been ditched then when lets face it do UA really have any intrest in being here for years to come ? Instead they have gave us a 2nd summer where loads have been better only to be sat here looking at it being ditched anyway. Im not sure about you but i would of rather it just went after 1 season just my opinion not a logic.

[oldart]

Would a UA 757 staging through Ncl to maybe Frankfurt or Berlin work? Of course dropping the fare would help as well.

[gopaisleygo]

Simply put, NO!
Berlin and Frankfurt work well for STAR as direct connects. Why, in this day and age, would a passenger choose (say) FRA/NCL/EWR over FRA/EWR at the same cost - economically it would not be any better priced? Fact is, NCL has always been a thin route for UA, their local sales manager has already admitted so to the trade regarding revenue and load.

[EK77WNCL]

x3 weekly EWR-NCL-BRS-EWR, x4 weekly EWR-BRS-NCL-EWR. DONE! Problems solved, might even support a 787 when the 757's go

[ATNotts]

x3 weekly EWR-NCL-BRS-EWR, x4 weekly EWR-BRS-NCL-EWR. DONE! Problems solved, might even support a 787 when the 757's go
Tongue firmly in cheek I assume!

[VickersVicount]

yeah break the airlines standard transatlantic 757 non double drop routing policy to accommodate NCL....

[EK77WNCL]

Firmly ATNotts! Although it worked for Transat ;););)

Slightly less firmly in cheek though, IF this turns out to be true - and I'll be heartily disappointed if it is because I don't believe we've been given a fair run... AND to be fair to us, we have shown growth over the 2 seasons - I'd be straight on the phone to Dubai about DXB-NCL-JFK/EWR-NCL-DXB

It sounds stupid, and even I'm very sceptical about a 77W on NCL-NYC but it provides more cargo uplift, higher reliability, lower fares and there's more brand awareness and existing loyalty, as well as a similar number of connections at the other end (at JFK not EWR) and in a perfect universe it could even create scope for a couple of hundred Emirati/US visitors a year who just fancy a break somewhere different on their trip...

I'm going to wait though, without wanting to speak too soon, I don't think they're going to have pulled out just yet - I do have faith in them to give it a proper run

[SWBKCB]

I'd be straight on the phone to Dubai about DXB-NCL-JFK/EWR-NCL-DXB

And why would the Americans agree to this? and who provides the onwards connections?

[chaps1954]

Thats just like SIN-MAN-IAH so why not

Ian

[LiamNCL]

CONFIRMED

United drops NCL. Statement on Website

[ash666]

BHX5DME

Where do you get the seat map info from?

[oldart]

CONFIRMED

United drops NCL. Statement on Website
Story in the Shields Gazette.

[Jamesair]

Very disappointing but it was always "use it or lose it" and there are some very poor double figures loads in the next few days....in the peak month of August.

Maybe someone like Norwegian could make it work, in the meantime there are just a few NY flights by Jet 2 over Christmas.

[HH6702]

Maybe when the A321LR are ready we will gain the route again.

Would be nice for jet2 to offer 3x weekly during the summer however I can't see it happening.

Prices have been a problem I think.
Proves there is a market just finding an airline that wants that market share and willing to accept a small margin.

Cargo is the key to making a route work so maybe we do need a stop off with another airport or a low cost airline like DY with the 787??

[JKKne]

I prefer using Aer Lingus, maybe they could push that more

[NCL-TRC]

Not great news, especially as when the airport execs went out a couple of weeks ago the talk was positive, even of a reduced service through the winter. But can hardly say I was surprised when I was told last week. Best bet for NCL for now at least is probably to pursue WOW via KEF if they want to get into the transatlantic market.

[HH6702]

Wow 5x weekly in the summer may work also great place for a city break to KEF also

[LiamNCL]

ICE or WOW via KEF would certainly fill that gap for now but i do agree that we may be in a better position when a more fuel efficient A321LR comes online and we are well past the brexit fallout. What i will say though is there needs to be a happy medium and alot of people tweeting the airport saying it was just too expensive sometimes as much as £200+ more than flying via LHR. You cannot expect great loads when people push for the best price and you potentially out price yourself off the route. Never mind as previously stated it was only a summer seasonal anyway not really a great loss but could Jet2 ever have any success in turning their 757s in Transatlantic 3x weeklys from say LBA - NCL - EMA ? Strictly from Airports not serving NYC where there is no competition ? Even though its not likely to happen , Could Those 757s make more per sear doing transatlantic than what they do stuck on routes like FAO / PMI ? Just a thought.

[HeartyMeatballs]

It's a shame but not unforeseen. I don't think we need an Icelandic hub. NCL had plenty enough hub flights as it is.

The only Icelandic link would be jet2 and their holiday outfit. Couple of times a week.

[rutankrd]

alot of people tweeting the airport saying it was just too expensive sometimes as much as £200+ more than flying via LHR.

I am afraid because of the need to fill the back of as many as thirty flights a day from the London area to NYC there is considerable price dumping via the consolidators.

This effects the viability of many UK and near EU cities abilities to compete fairly on direct services to the/from New York.

Added to the United 75w offering especially in the back is less than appealing these days.

The J angled flat seats are however okay.

[owenc]

And the loads ok !

NCL Loads from the seat-maps - 16/45/108 config


Today outbound 10-15-83 = 108 inbound 8-17-103 = 128


Tomorrow outbound 14-20-101 = 135 inbound 9-20-108 = 137


Saturday outbound 14-17-103 = 134 inbound 11-13-104 = 128
Most other British airports will have about 95% load factor not 70 - in the summer time period.

[owenc]

Belfast went summer only last year but has become year round again but a gap of around 6 weeks between end of Jan and early March

No. Year round. 3x weekly in winter.

[EK77WNCL]

SWBKCB, (un)fortunately there's not much the Americans can really do, and we have the EU-US/EU-UAE/UAE-US openskies agreements to think for that

And there's not much at Newark, Alaska and Virgin America. But at JFK, Emirates passengers can connect to Jetblue's huge range of destinations from there, and it's probably not that much less comprehensive than United's

[oldart]

Today's UAL flight to New York has gone tech, at least a three hour delay.

[SWBKCB]

EU-US/EU-UAE/UAE-US

Which of these agreements allows a non-EU airline to operate fifth freedom flights between the EU and US without separate American (or EU) approval? had forgotten about JetBlue!

[EK77WNCL]

I do apologise, I wasn't sure if the openskies meant that EK could operate UK-USA flights. They got Milan - New York, and SIA got Manchester - Houston, so why wouldn't they let Emirates fly NCL-NYC if they could get the slots?

[fl dutchman]

Now on airport website.

Total pax 573135. increase of 30112 approx +5.5%

Domestic 102332. decrease of 5672 approx -5%

Inc tour 158850. decrease of 572 approx -0.5%

Sh Inter 310932. increase of 37070 approx +13.5%


June figures have also been corrected.


Shame about New York. The pound continues to fall so that wont have helped. Hope it does not affect the Jet 2 Christmas shopping trips.

[HH6702]

Good set of figures 30k extra passengers compared to 2015 is very good.
Shame we can't see per route

[Heathrow Harry]

still surprises me that NCL can support a Dubai flight daily but not a US flight............ I know where I'd rather go .....

[oldart]

still surprises me that NCL can support a Dubai flight daily but not a US flight............ I know where I'd rather go .....
Not really, more people tend to visit the far East and Australasia for holidays and visiting families, Dubai hub ideal for onward flights.

[EK77WNCL]

Another reason is because Emirates went in at the deep end, dealt with the crappy first few years, saw improvement, continued investment and ultimately led to profitability. They nurtured the route, they gave people what they want (daily, affordable, one stop flights to pretty much anywhere from their local, with quality service down the back - i.e where it counts from NCL) and it paid off, and now they want 2 daily...

United did not do that - and that's why I'd have more faith in Emirates doing JFK. The only problem I can see coming with that is the fact there would be 2 77W's on the ground at the same time

[Homo Simpson]

I would doubt that EK (or anyone else) would use an aircraft through Newcastle to anywhere in the US.
Demand is not sufficient going West.

[EK77WNCL]

But that's the point... Build it and they will come! It would create demand, and based on the fact that Emirates probably already has a ton of passenger and cargo contracts in the region going East, chances are some of them might go, or want to go west, and could pick Emirates

Emirates is a big name in the region, United not so much. I'm not denying that it would be hard for the first few years to get the ball rolling but if anyone knows what they're doing, it's Emirates

[ATNotts]

But that's the point... Build it and they will come! It would create demand, and based on the fact that Emirates probably already has a ton of passenger and cargo contracts in the region going East, chances are some of them might go, or want to go west, and could pick Emirates

Emirates is a big name in the region, United not so much. I'm not denying that it would be hard for the first few years to get the ball rolling but if anyone knows what they're doing, it's Emirates
The UK regional market is heavily leisure driven, and with the pound trading between 15 - 20% lower than a month or so ago, demand for leisure travel is likely to soften. Inbound, your average American is so geographically challenged that the only places they really know in UK are London, Stratford upon Avon and Edinburgh, so it will always be an uphill task getting US tourists to use a service to NCL, or for that matter BHX. The UK tourist boards don't help, with their over concentration on London as a destination.

I wonder if UA would have stuck with NCL for another season, had the events of 23 June not unfolded in the way they did, with the exchange rate consequences that followed. We shall never know.

As for business traffic, a daily service is the minimum requirement, multi daily preferably, so again regional airports, aside MAN are always going to struggle.

[SWBKCB]

Another reason is because Emirates went in at the deep end

And how they managed to do this is one of the reasons they'll struggle to get traffic rights (which seems to have been forgotten about - slightly bigger problem than having two 777's on the ground).

However, IF they got the rights and IF they made a go of it, would kind of prove the point for UA/AA/DL.

[LiamNCL]

Emirates will go 2x Daily in the near future because they grow routes. EK35/6 would of been history long time ago had they been as impatient as UA and we should be greatful of it, It will always be the jewel in Newcastle's crown. The fact is a 757 going west from here will not work with higher fares because people will just not use it and it can carry next to no exports compared to the huge 77W going east. The only carrier that would make money out of a 757 westbound service would be Jet2 but its not their market other than the christmas spin offs.

[highwideandugly]

Maybe an incentive(bribe) such as Belfast to UA would have retained the route? Level playing field for the NE anyone???:=

[SWBKCB]

Apples and oranges - BFS was competing against DUB, just down the road in a different country with different taxes. If/when Scotland reduces APD, you'll have a point.

[highwideandugly]

Think I have a point anyway..Belfast is in the UK. Newcastle is in the UK ,BFS are able to offer incentives..NCL not..is that fair? Both areas are in need of support are they not?
You say they were competing? Against DUB.
So is Newcastle not competing as you call it against GLA,EDI ,MAN and BHX?
It's not competing, its economic benefit support for areas that actually need help.

[HeartyMeatballs]

There will be no centralised incentive. Only the airport can incentivise the route, and they're not going to give away freebies for ever.

The BFS route benefits from Barnett's billions to the tune of £3m a year in addition to the APD concession. This will never happen in an English airport. Regardless of need. Other countries have subsidies airports and routes. I think England has one route if you ignore the route development fund routes.

[EK77WNCL]

I think the government need to screw their head on to be honest. Brexit was enough of a disappointment, enough said on that. But I think UA might have tried an extended season in 2017, if the pound hadn't dropped the way it did.

I am forever grateful for Emirates at NCL, couldn't imagine the airport without them, they've done a lot of good for us, even if they were branded as a white elephant for pretty much the first 5 years - proved people wrong.

Newcastle is now one of the slowest growing airports in the UK... I don't think we've really been in that position much, I remember many articles from before the recession that said we were the fastest growing. We've been completely overshadowed by long haul and low cost growth at Manchester and Edinburgh... Both of which have benefitted from the lack of a 3rd runway at Heathrow (I almost hope they don't get it). Other similarly sized airports to us are growing, albeit as I mentioned before mainly low cost.

The regional route development fund was, in my opinion ridiculous. That money that was wasted on oddball and marginal routes (most of which never materialised, or went up against existing operators) could have been much better spent on propping up routes like NCL-EWR, BFS-EWR, MAN-PEK, MAN-HKG... Among many others, EDI is after a China route, Fund it! Until it pays for itself, if it doesn't can it!

I just think if they were gonna give money for something, give it for something worthwhile

In my personal opinion, there should be fairer, differentiated bands of APD...
- Central London/Major airports in affluent areas: LCY, LHR and maybe LGW should pay full APD (£13/26 - £76/146)
- Outer london and +20 million ppa airports like LTN, STN, MAN should pay 75% current APD (£9.75/£19.50 - £57/£109.50)
- +10 million ppa airports should have APD devolved 50%: EDI and after this year BHX (£6.50/13 - £38/73)
- +5 million devolved to 25% current rate: GLA, BRS, hopefully soon NCL, LPL, BFS etc. (£3.25/£6.50 - £19/36.50)
- Airports of less than 5 million ppa should have APD fully devolved OR pay a standard flat rate of say... £5 per passenger in all classes of travel over all distances, perhaps 50% delivered back to the airport as a development fee
- Another potential band for consideration could be full devolution for airports with less than 1mppa, and/or full devolution on all non London domestic flights

This presents a lot of potential pros and cons. People who use LHR and LCY are always going to use LHR and LCY, fact... It's a high tax area anyway, why not pay full APD. The regions are much more marginal. Airports like MAN, STN, EDI, LTN, BHX have already paid their worth, so why shouldn't they pay tax? People at EDI and MAN might not be happy at NCL and LBA paying different tax bands, but while it may be a disadvantage (very small one) they already have a lot to offer AND already have a comprehensive network! Very very different to devolved APD to EDI, as they have more to offer to begin with, so would have a double advantage if they devolved their own APD.

The government would still get a good sum of tax from throughout the UK and being honest, the domestic passengers that BA could stand to lose to CDG, AMS, DXB etc. might stand in their favour. Funnel more through DUB and MAD, free LHR slots and it'll all balance out.

You'll probably all think I'm crazy, and the government would laugh me off... But that's what I'd do if I was prime minister

To complicate things more, I'd say airlines should be able to bid for devolution on long haul routes, such as EDI, GLA, MAN, BHX - China, MAN-HKG, NCL-DXB, anything else that may be struggling or need propping up. It could lead to routes like ISB-LBA being restarted... Or dare I say it NCL-NYC?

It's all good for the UK economy, and takes pressure off London airports, while UK passengers still line the government's pockets with the highest APD going (albeit at a lower rate than it used to be)

As I said... Call me crazy but I believe the regions should be given an advantage, not London. That can and do look after themselves

[LEEDS APPROACH]

APD this and APD that. Stop moaning NCL fans! I told you that route would be touch and go!

Catchment area population and propensity to fly is the key! It's very much a 2 edged sword being an isolated catchment population.

You should thank your lucky stars Leeds and Yorkshire's main airport is located where it is (for now) or you would be looking at 1 or 2 million less passengers right now.

[LiamNCL]

What does Leeds offer that Newcastle doesnt ? Sorry but Leeds would never be a option for me no matter where it was located it will never be 2 mile away like NCL and for that reason i wouldnt fly from anywhere else no matter what the price.

[SWBKCB]

Don't encourage him - the King of Yorkshire's just looking for a new base for his royal flight.

He should have a word with EK once he's President Corbyn's Transport Minister.

[ATNotts]

What does Leeds offer that Newcastle doesnt ? Sorry but Leeds would never be a option for me no matter where it was located it will never be 2 mile away like NCL and for that reason i wouldnt fly from anywhere else no matter what the price.
A more prosperous region - many jobs in banking and financial services, and some wealthier areas such as Harrogate, York and the like in easy reach (if, given LBA's abysmal road infrastructure) anywhere is in "easy" reach of LBA - apart from Yeadon!

[VentureGo]

EK77WNCL wrote: In my personal opinion, there should be fairer, differentiated bands of APD...
- Central London/Major airports in affluent areas: LCY, LHR and maybe LGW should pay full APD (£13/26 - £76/146)
- Outer london and +20 million ppa airports like LTN, STN, MAN should pay 75% current APD (£9.75/£19.50 - £57/£109.50)
- +10 million ppa airports should have APD devolved 50%: EDI and after this year BHX (£6.50/13 - £38/73)
- +5 million devolved to 25% current rate: GLA, BRS, hopefully soon NCL, LPL, BFS etc. (£3.25/£6.50 - £19/36.50)
- Airports of less than 5 million ppa should have APD fully devolved OR pay a standard flat rate of say... £5 per passenger in all classes of travel over all distances, perhaps 50% delivered back to the airport as a development fee
- Another potential band for consideration could be full devolution for airports with less than 1mppa, and/or full devolution on all non London domestic flights

EK77WNCL - Some excellent points made throughout your post, including the thought out mechanism I've quoted from your post above. I don't see your suggestion as being over complicated for the Government to implement, and as you say it has many advantages. - Send it to no.11 Downing Street for perusal.

[SWBKCB]

I think you've missed the point - the question was what does LBA offer that NCL doesn't to a North East resident.

[LAX_LHR]

The regions are much more marginal. Airports like MAN, STN, EDI, LTN, BHX have already paid their worth, so why shouldn't they pay tax? People at EDI and MAN might not be happy at NCL and LBA paying different tax bands, but while it may be a disadvantage (very small one) they already have a lot to offer AND already have a comprehensive network!

It's a great idea in principal, but then how do you address any disparity that comes from this.

For example, how would you prevent say, Ryanair moving a shed load of routes from Manchester to Leeds to make use of lower APD bands? That's not stimulating growth, it's moving it around.

How would you address a new route choosing NCL over EDI purely due to APD, it's not exactly fair? An airport should be able to attract a route in its own merit, not because of an artificial advantage.

Just because an airport is successful doesn't mean it should be put at a delibirate disadvantage just to appease the other.

For what it's worth, I also believe it's pointless charging LHR higher APD. The numbers of transferring passengers means many would be exempt from APD anyway!

[HH6702]

United nearly went at BFS too have a look guys link below

United Airlines: Rescue deal agreed to save Belfast to New York service - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37060489)

[oldart]

United nearly went at BFS too have a look guys link below

United Airlines: Rescue deal agreed to save Belfast to New York service - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37060489)
No chance of the Tory government helping out with money to save a route at a Labour North airport.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Surely the local labour councils in the locality could chip in to recover some of the da,age labour caused by jacking APD so high?

[EK77WNCL]

LAX_LHR, I understand your point there, although that already happens to an extent... Liverpool (as far as I understand it) did and still sometimes does act as a low cost alternative to Manchester, for example. And I'm sure the same could be said for Leeds.

I don't think it would be feasible, even for an airline like Ryanair to up sticks and move across the hill, they have a huge operation at MAN anyway, and if you think about it, everyone stands to benefit because there is still a devolution to those markets, just less. - I suppose if it was obvious, like Ryanair ditched EDI for GLA and MAN for LBA... Then it should be deemed lawful for the government and airport authorities to block that from happening. Talking about major routes though, if a Chinese carrier was looking at EDI, I doubt they'd then change their mind and go for NCL instead because of lower APD

Regards to Heathrow, how is it that APD works, I thought that, for example, if you flew NCL-LHR-NYC you would pay full rate? A lot of LHR's pax are not transfer though, so to me it still stands to reason that full APD should be payable from there. I honestly think an ideal situation for the government and airport authorities would be to charge full APD and artificially depress the market for UK transfers to Heathrow through higher fares on long haul connections and replace UK domestic flights. From Newcastle for example I think BA would be quite happy if they could drop x2 LHR flights and replace them with another DUB flight, and perhaps a daily flight to Madrid. And this isn't just me wanting to see more tails on the ground I genuinely think it would be an option, in fact I'd go as far as to reducing LHR to x2/3 daily for connections and some O&D, introducing x2/3 daily LCY for majority O&D traffic, bolstering EI to DUB while they build the DUB hub and then 1 daily/10 weekly flights to Madrid, most likely with Iberia express, to cater for connections.

In a market as price sensitive as NCL what does it really matter if people are flying NCL-LHR-LAX, NCL-DUB-LAX, NCL-LHR-HKG or NCL-MAD-HKG... I'd say not much. With every new set of declining figures to LHR I begin to see less and less cause for so many flights, that's one case in which I agree that the LHR slots could be much better used elsewhere. I doubt what I propose would change... But I'd like to think that they would use IAG for it's intended purpose...

VentureGo, seriously? I mean I would, I just don't want to have missed any sarcasm in there if there was any haha :P if not though, thank you very much... How do I go about escalating it as high as downing street?

LEEDS APPROACH - :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D did you forget to take your meds this morning?

[canberra97]

EK77WNVL

Nice one regarding LEEDSAPPROACH he just slagged me off on the Easyjet thread, he certainly has issues and perhaps your right concerning his meds!

[fl dutchman]

EK77WNCL

"With every new set of declining figures to LHR I begin to see less cause for so many flights"

I know the figures to LHR are not available at present due to the long running issues at the CAA, however I think there has been little decline in numbers. In fact I believe there has even been increases over the years.

The decline at NCL is domestics in general ie LGW, STN, BRS etc. Not so much LHR where the LF is still high. It remains the airports busiest route.

One of the main benefits of the LHR service is its frequency. Also it's convenience.

[SWBKCB]

I suppose if it was obvious, like Ryanair ditched EDI for GLA and MAN for LBA... Then it should be deemed lawful for the government and airport authorities to block that from happening.

Really - how?

But I'd like to think that they would use IAG for it's intended purpose...

And what is the intended purpose of IAG?


LEEDS APPROACH - did you forget to take your meds this morning?

People in glass houses?

[LAX_LHR]

LAX_LHR, I understand your point there, although that already happens to an extent... Liverpool (as far as I understand it) did and still sometimes does act as a low cost alternative to Manchester, for example. And I'm sure the same could be said for Leeds

That's a different scenario. It was because back then, Low cost airlines used Liverpool as opposed to Manchester, that was an airline decision to operate as a 'low cost airline', not a government mandate like APD would be. Back then, it's like Manchester was Sainsburys and Liverpool was Aldi, and then the government stepping in and saying they will knock £5 of your bill if you choose to shop at Aldi. It's the airport/airline to try and offer the cheaper alternative, not the government.

Regards to Heathrow, how is it that APD works, I thought that, for example, if you flew NCL-LHR-NYC you would pay full rate?

That particular route would still pay full APD as its an ex-UK route, however, AMS-LHR-NYC or BOM-LHR-NYC wouldn't pay full APD, and those sorts of transfers are a large proportion of traffic into Heathrow. Similarly, passengers on the new SIN-MAN-IAH travelling SIN-IAH do not pay the UK APD.

[oldart]

So which is the cheaper route to JFK from NCL, regarding APD, via AMS or LHR?

[SWBKCB]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/excise-notice-550-air-passenger-duty/excise-notice-550-air-passenger-duty#connected-flights

See section 4 - APD is the same via both if booked as a through flight.

AMS would be cheaper (with regard to APD) if you bought a ticket to AMS, and then booked a ticket AMS-JFK

[rutankrd]

AMS would be cheaper (with regard to APD) if you bought a ticket to AMS, and then booked a ticket AMS-JFK

Only if you waited over the 24 hour transfer time - FULL ADP rates would still be due on you fares otherwise.

Yes its difficult to collect but is still tax invasion !

[ATNotts]

AMS would be cheaper (with regard to APD) if you bought a ticket to AMS, and then booked a ticket AMS-JFK

Only if you waited over the 24 hour transfer time - FULL ADP rates would still be due on you fares otherwise.

Yes its difficult to collect but is still tax invasion !
I hadn't realised that; so if you book NCL-AMS on one coupon, then a separate coupon to fly the same day AMS-JFK you are subject to long-haul APD?

Is the way around this to book the AMS-JFK leg using an offshore ISP, so a foreign IP address? Not planning to do so, but just curious. If so, then the cost of a pay-as-you-go non UK SIM could pay dividends.

[SWBKCB]

It's the airline which collects the APD, and you would still be giving them the same details so can't see the ISP would make any difference - suppose it's down to the airlines processes.

[ash666]

NCL coming out quite well.

Most delayed flights from UK airports revealed - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37036838)

[Chesty Morgan]

No thanks to the airport mind.

[nighthawk117]

In my personal opinion, there should be fairer, differentiated bands of APD...
- Central London/Major airports in affluent areas: LCY, LHR and maybe LGW should pay full APD (£13/26 - £76/146)
- Outer london and +20 million ppa airports like LTN, STN, MAN should pay 75% current APD (£9.75/£19.50 - £57/£109.50)
- +10 million ppa airports should have APD devolved 50%: EDI and after this year BHX (£6.50/13 - £38/73)
- +5 million devolved to 25% current rate: GLA, BRS, hopefully soon NCL, LPL, BFS etc. (£3.25/£6.50 - £19/36.50)
- Airports of less than 5 million ppa should have APD fully devolved OR pay a standard flat rate of say... £5 per passenger in all classes of travel over all distances, perhaps 50% delivered back to the airport as a development fee
- Another potential band for consideration could be full devolution for airports with less than 1mppa, and/or full devolution on all non London domestic flights


I'm not sure it needs to be as complicated as this - simply charging full APD for London airports, and discounts for the regions would be enough. The London market can take it, but the regions are a lot more price sensitive. Providing discount to the regions will also help reduce the pressure on LHR by encouraging more direct flights to the region.

[EK77WNCL]

Exactly, plus the London market is just as big as, if not bigger than the rest of the UK market, so the government still get a hefty bit of money from it

[NorthEasterner]

Flew out of NCL a couple of weeks ago, surprised to find a new bag wrapping service! Airport website says it's only £5 a bag :cool:


Very handy especially for Emirates passengers who may be travelling ahead from Dubai.


NE

[Heathrow Harry]

Touch wood I've only had my bags "got at" twice - once was internal in Malaysia and the other internal via TheifRow..............

[HeartyMeatballs]

I've never understood the cling film thing. Still, well done NCL - you could have managed to fit in yet another pub/bar/alcohol shop, but you didn't.

[HeartyMeatballs]

Why are flights 'non operational'. Is that what we used to call 'cancelled'? Or is it planned cancellations such as summer holiday reductions?

[NorthEasterner]

Birmingham flights are non operational as they are not operated anymore, the route has been dropped.

[HeartyMeatballs]

The Aberdeen flight was saying the same thing too.

[NorthEasterner]

They may have been cancelled due to low passenger numbers or a crew related issue. No point operating a flight if you only have none or just 2 or 3 passengers.

[HeartyMeatballs]

So it's cancelled then? Not 'non operational'?

[N707ZS]

Must be due to BREXIT then!

[HeartyMeatballs]

I knew I should have voted remain!

[jensdad]

What's the crack with the LS594 coming in from 'Zakynthos & Budapest' (airport website) today? It has an hour and a half delay. I would normally guess a medical or fuel diversion but would they normally include the diversion airport on the arrivals list?

[LiamNCL]

Yes they show the original departure airport and the diverted one on the arrivals

[Fairdealfrank]

In my personal opinion, there should be fairer, differentiated bands of APD...
- Central London/Major airports in affluent areas: LCY, LHR and maybe LGW should pay full APD (£13/26 - £76/146)
- Outer london and +20 million ppa airports like LTN, STN, MAN should pay 75% current APD (£9.75/£19.50 - £57/£109.50)
- +10 million ppa airports should have APD devolved 50%: EDI and after this year BHX (£6.50/13 - £38/73)
- +5 million devolved to 25% current rate: GLA, BRS, hopefully soon NCL, LPL, BFS etc. (£3.25/£6.50 - £19/36.50)
- Airports of less than 5 million ppa should have APD fully devolved OR pay a standard flat rate of say... £5 per passenger in all classes of travel over all distances, perhaps 50% delivered back to the airport as a development fee
- Another potential band for consideration could be full devolution for airports with less than 1mppa, and/or full devolution on all non London domestic flights

This presents a lot of potential pros and cons. People who use LHR and LCY are always going to use LHR and LCY, fact... It's a high tax area anyway, why not pay full APD. The regions are much more marginal. Airports like MAN, STN, EDI, LTN, BHX have already paid their worth, so why shouldn't they pay tax? People at EDI and MAN might not be happy at NCL and LBA paying different tax bands, but while it may be a disadvantage (very small one) they already have a lot to offer AND already have a comprehensive network! Very very different to devolved APD to EDI, as they have more to offer to begin with, so would have a double advantage if they devolved their own APD.

The government would still get a good sum of tax from throughout the UK and being honest, the domestic passengers that BA could stand to lose to CDG, AMS, DXB etc. might stand in their favour. Funnel more through DUB and MAD, free LHR slots and it'll all balance out.

I'm not sure it needs to be as complicated as this - simply charging full APD for London airports, and discounts for the regions would be enough. The London market can take it, but the regions are a lot more price sensitive. Providing discount to the regions will also help reduce the pressure on LHR by encouraging more direct flights to the region.

This is nonsense, APD needs to go. Apparently 91,000 jobs could be created and £4.2 billion added to the economy if APD was scrapped. Neighbouring countries have done it, it's time to join them.


Quote:
But I'd like to think that they would use IAG for it's intended purpose...
And what is the intended purpose of IAG?

To maximise returns on shareholders' investments, perhaps?

[Heathrow Harry]

"Apparently 91,000 jobs could be created and £4.2 billion added to the economy if APD was scrapped."

taht'll be one of those studies paid for by those who will profit which takes a number and multiplies it by 20 and then by 100

I bet if APD is cut NOTHING will come back to the passengers - it'll be "well oil prices are up" or " we have increased costs due to BREXIT"

[Jamesair]

The May statistics are now on the CAA site

[Ph1l1pncl]

I see that Belfast is now the 10th largest airport in the UK. Not sure if some of the statistics are right again though, only 14, 426 passengers on the Dubai route for May. I thought the low season to Dubai is later on in the year?

[GrahamK]

May is the low season

[CabinCrewe]

Is that NCL EK DXBs biggest monthly drop of late? Perhaps its just to do with timing of the weeks compared to last year as I see EDI DOH is down too.

[Jamesair]

The International destinations have not yet been split into "scheduled" and "charter",

[Heathrow Harry]

Ramadan is the low season for DXB - especialy when it occurs in summer as does from 2013 - 2018

[HH6702]

We have this same conversion about EK every summer ha ha

[HH6702]

Be nice to see the route split between all destinations
ALC /AGP should have big increases since Ryanair came on the routes

[fl dutchman]

Increases (combined) Charter and scheduled.

Alicante +33%
Barcelona +46%
Malaga +40%
Reus +61%
Arrecife +30%
Tenerife +35%
Las Palmas +26%

Of course big drops to Turkey, Tunisia and Egypt.

Dubai down 5%. AMS down 10%

Still not confident figures are correct but they look better.

[OltonPete]

Just clarify a couple of points, the figures quoted are for May and Ramadan had no effect as it started 6/7 June but as posters have said it is the low season (monsoon rains in the Indian sub-continent etc and boy did it).

However when you look at the Middle Eastern figures from the UK in May 2016 it seems to have been hit more than usual and I don't enough to say if this was over-capacity or other factors were at play here but here are some figures:

BHX-DOH.......10 501...........150 pax.....59%
MAN-DOH......21 761.(0%),..158 pax.....50% - due to lots of 77W and I assume 412 seat versions
EDI-DOH....... 8 364.(-1%)...143 pax.....56%
LHR-DOH..... 81 188 (+10%) - A319 QR upgraded to wide-body

BHX-DXB..... 44 423(+4%)....238 pax....51%
MAN-DXB.....66 328(+6%)....357 pax.....72%
NCL-DXB......14 426(-5%).....233 pax.....61%
GLA-DXB......Not reported yet
LHR-DXB..... 198 407 (+6%) - extra EK flight

I have estimated that all flights operated (I did check Linhomeradar for most of the routes) and have estimated that Manchester QR operated with the 412 seat 77W and EK the 517 A388 in the afternoon.

For Newcastle I did a quick scan of the three class and two class versions which operated and it would have been a lot lower if the two class had operated every flight.

However what I am saying is that the Newcastle figure although it is not great reading, some of the others are equally as bad when you add in the capacity increases.

These are provisional and I suppose they might get amended, I still can't believe how low the BHX Dubai and Doha figures were and considering every flight was rammed outbound from 24 May and inbound at the beginning of the month.

Pete

[Jamesair]

Good to see that NCL had the second highest load factor in your sample in respect of Dubai.

The operations of Ryanair and Vueling are showing through on the Alicante, Malaga and Barcelona figures, the Canary Islands are probably picking up a lot of the ex Egypt and Tunisian traffic

[LiamNCL]

Thomas Cooks A321 G-TCDB ZTH - GLA just diverted in sqwaking 7700 likely a medical emergency onboard, Hopefully nothing too serious

[VentureGo]

From end of October/1st November Eurowings to Dusseldorf seems to be changing fully to Airbus A319 operated by Germanwings (4U9338/9) and Eurowings operated Airbus A320 under EWG flight nos as todays CRJ a/c (EW1360/1) - info. from booking tool - I guess this should see an uplift in passenger volumes

[LiamNCL]

Looks like Avions LY-VEN has gone tech after a reliable summer. Thomas Cooks 767 G-TCCB looks to be picking up the work

[SWBKCB]

June provisional stats

airport 2016 2015 total_pax_percent
NAPLES 2,958 1,476 100.41
SKIATHOS 1,585 854 85.60
LAS PALMAS 5,553 3,264 70.13
CANCUN 3,658 2,299 59.11
REUS 10,888 6,914 57.48
ALICANTE 38,491 24,980 54.09
BARCELONA 9,818 6,388 53.69
ARRECIFE 10,897 7,457 46.13
MALAGA 26,493 18,464 43.48
TENERIFE 14,771 10,509 40.56
CORK 1,669 1,297 28.68
RHODES 8,621 6,751 27.70
KOS 3,892 3,077 26.49
VERONA VILLAFRANCA 3,141 2,496 25.84
NEW YORK (NEWARK) 5,073 4,099 23.76
LARNACA 7,405 6,209 19.26
DUBLIN 17,210 14,608 17.81
DUBROVNIK 4,219 3,622 16.48
GENEVA 4,663 4,017 16.08
ROME (FIUMICINO) 2,539 2,240 13.35
ZAKINTHOS 8,534 7,551 13.02
FARO 16,355 14,543 12.46
KEFALLINIA 3,051 2,738 11.43
PALMA DE MALLORCA 43,393 39,310 10.39
DUSSELDORF 3,579 3,325 7.64
PAPHOS 6,247 5,848 6.82
NICE 3,978 3,736 6.48
SALZBURG 1,463 1,383 5.78
AMSTERDAM 31,752 30,757 3.24
HERAKLION 5,478 5,322 2.93
SANFORD 2,356 2,302 2.35
FUERTEVENTURA 4,519 4,429 2.03
PISA 2,107 2,079 1.35
MAHON 8,340 8,266 0.90
GENOA 131 0 0.00
GIRONA 2,458 0 0.00
HALIFAX INT 39 0 0.00
TOULOUSE (BLAGNAC) 148 0 0.00
VENICE 129 0 0.00
IBIZA 15,459 15,476 -0.11
THIRA (SANTORINI) 1,590 1,672 -4.90
BURGAS 5,872 6,215 -5.52
DUBAI 15,314 16,460 -6.96
BODRUM (MILAS) 3,174 3,458 -8.21
PARIS CDG 12,197 13,339 -8.56
PRAGUE 2,165 2,391 -9.45
COPENHAGEN 1,844 2,066 -10.75
FUNCHAL 2,728 3,083 -11.51
KRAKOW 2,177 2,487 -12.46
CORFU 8,733 9,978 -12.48
ANTALYA 5,191 6,031 -13.93
MALTA 3,546 4,705 -24.63
BRUSSELS 1,909 2,743 -30.40
DALAMAN 14,529 23,288 -37.61
MURCIA SAN JAVIER 2,896 4,843 -40.20
STAVANGER 606 1,177 -48.51
SPLIT 520 2,116 -75.43
ENFIDHA 0 7,381 -100.00
HURGHADA 0 1,476 -100.00
KAVALA 0 790 -100.00
SHARM EL SHEIKH 0 5,018 -100.00

[HH6702]

Intresting figures.
Newark 1000 extra passengers but still not enough

[EK77WNCL]

I would hesitate to say that that is one of the healthiest June's (and months in general) that I can remember, EXCEPT the Dubai figures, which infuriate me because once again it looks like we're lining up to lose out because of airlines dumping capacity elsewhere nearby and operating marginal loads.

If it keeps going on like this for the rest of the year we can wave goodbye to second daily next year... Cheers Edinburgh, owe you one!

(P.S I know I shouldn't be bitter but it annoys me that we have so much potential, but are on the bottom of the pile, and having driven up to Edinburgh last week for the first time as an adult, anyone who would put themselves through that hellish journey to save a couple of quid must be desparate for a deal! I understand if NCL doesn't offer it but...)

[HeartyMeatballs]

Well make your mind up. Why is it not ok for airlines to dump capacity on other markets but it's ok for airlines to dump foreign based capacity on NCL and operate marginal yields.wether it's a marginal load or marginal yield neither are idea.

[Heathrow Harry]

still can't believe three times as many people would rather go to Dubai than New York...............

[oldart]

still can't believe three times as many people would rather go to Dubai than New York...............
Onward connections to the far east and Australia I suspect. More relatives emigrate there than do to America.

[EK77WNCL]

It's rather different (I assume you're making digs at Ryanair), as Ryanair have expanded a large, and growing market, passenger numbers have grown some months, more than all the seats Ryanair had to offer. It was one of the first months Ryanair operated Alicante, they offered around 8,000 seats and numbers grew by more than 10,000

Also, the market can take it, if anything it will grow and right size (and right-price) NCL for once.

The exact opposite of EY and QR flooding EDI, which is simply just taking passengers from existing, and eachother's services, and is now starting to have a detrimental effect down at NCL, maybe there is rock bottom prices, but they might have ruined any chances of us getting expansion from EK in the near term.

Not to mention the new routes that Ryanair is bringing in, and I'm sure that easyjet's announcement of Berlin is a pre-emptive strike on Ryanair, I hope it is at least!

[ATNotts]

I would hesitate to say that that is one of the healthiest June's (and months in general) that I can remember, EXCEPT the Dubai figures, which infuriate me because once again it looks like we're lining up to lose out because of airlines dumping capacity elsewhere nearby and operating marginal loads.

Not time for mass wrist slitting based on June figures for Dubai! The route has suffered a triple-whammy in June. Ramadan, the monsoon season in the Indian subcontinent, and winter in Australia and New Zealand. DXB figures weren't so good on any of the UK regional routes.

[nighthawk117]

The exact opposite of EY and QR flooding EDI, which is simply just taking passengers from existing, and eachother's services, and is now starting to have a detrimental effect down at NCL


Do you have a source to back this up? CAA stats seem to show otherwise.

Why the obsession with a second daily Dubai flight? You've got a connection to Dubai, does it matter if it's one or two daily?

[HeartyMeatballs]

It's for when he's an Emirates pilot. As there will be no NCL based jobs he'll need a way to get to and from the sandpit.

[SWBKCB]

UK_airport foreign_airport 2016 2015 total_pax_percent
EDINBURGH ABU DHABI 10,659 6,131 73.85 % inc. looks wrong?
HEATHROW ABU DHABI 67,112 61,409 9.29
MANCHESTER ABU DHABI 29,411 25,936 13.40

BIRMINGHAM DOHA 9,793 0 0
EDINBURGH DOHA 10,193 9,668 5.43
HEATHROW DOHA 79,227 73,122 8.35
MANCHESTER DOHA 22,859 20,806 9.87

BIRMINGHAM DUBAI 39,584 38,567 2.64
GATWICK DUBAI 0.00 65,290 -100
GLASGOW DUBAI 0.00 32,882 -100
HEATHROW DUBAI 171,852 175,005 -1.80
MANCHESTER DUBAI 61,409 60,942 0.77
NEWCASTLE DUBAI 15,314 16,460 -6.96

[jensdad]

If I can digress a little bit into the NCL vs EDI question...


I was in Edinburgh yesterday. The city was chock a block with foreigners: both tourists and those working in the service industries. Over half of the punters in the airport itself seemed to be non-local. Compare this to the departure lounge at NCL where you barely hear an accent from outside a 60 mile radius of Woolsington. Despite what people in in organisations like the Newcastle Gateshead Initiative might tell you (I still insist on putting a gap between the words 'Newcastle' and 'Gateshead' - sorry for being a tad off-message), Tyneside and the wider North East is still a tiny player in the UK's business and tourism sectors. When comparing Newcastle to Edinburgh I think we just aren't comparing apples with apples. (Mind, this might not be a bad thing, do we really want Dunstanburgh castle to be awash with tourists? :) )
LBA might be a better comparison. Or even to a certain extent MME and we are in a hell of a lot better situation than them.


A wider question could be as to why this is the case. I am old enough to remember when EDI (the airport, not the city) was only slightly busier than NCL. What happened?

[fl dutchman]

" A wider question could be as to why this is the case. I am old enough to remember when EDI ( the airport not the city ) was only slightly busier than NCL. What happened?"

Answer --Change of ownership at EDI!!

[EK77WNCL]

I'm just old enough to remember about 10 years ago when NCL was one of the fastest growing in the UK and I also wonder what happened (obviously, competition happened, in the wrong places)

I am proud of NCL for the balance we have, I just think it's a little frustrating that we're being limited by said competition. If emirates were stupid enough to go into EDI any time soon that would be a huge nail in the coffin I think

I've just gotten off a train from Edinburgh and I noticed the very same thing. I was there for 4 hours, saw 3 groups of Spanish people, 1 of Portugese, countless Americans (almost everyone was!), the same for Chinese, and I went into a pub opposite Waverley, the pub at the front was all Scots, but in the restaurant in the back I was the only brit, 2 groups of Germans made friends because they heard eachother talking

That's a good thing! And it's obviously a very very cosmopolitan city, I just wish the North East was that little bit more on the tourist map. As you say, I'd hate us to be overrun, but we do have a lot to offer (obviously not to first time visitors, we can't compete with London)

And for the record that's a pathetic comment, I want a 2nd daily flight for many reasons, none come close to being due to my ambitions (And - might I add, why dampen them?) it's mainly because it opens up many more connections and offers better flight times for O&D, you don't lose 2 nights as you do now if you use the evening flight.

fl dutchman, nail on the head there! I wish we'd been bought by MAG or GIP, they both run airports very well! Not to say our management don't but there would have been more scope for growth, and existing airline partners under either of those

[SWBKCB]

Why does everybody ignore the obvious - Newcastle is a small, poor, isolated city in a small, poor, isolated region (Sir Alex was right!) - stop looking for excuses.

I too think NCL punches above it's weight, but to expect new ownership to awaken a sleeping giant is just wishfull thinking (and read the BOH, HUY and EMA threads before fluttering yr eyelids at MAG!)

[Jamesair]

I think Newcastle is doing well considering the limitations of its catchment area. Ryanair will boost the passenger numbers this coming Winter and next Summer to help the airport reach the 5m landmark again.

[fl dutchman]

When EDI was owned by BAA I think there was little in the way of low cost carriers and IT flights at EDI.
Lots of people from its catchment area used to come down to NCL to use the holiday flights etc that were not available then from EDI.
That would be in the days when NCL handled over 5 m pax.
Of course unlike the BAA who seemed not to encourage charters and LCC at that time from EDI the current owners have done a great job in attracting such airlines and operators.
Now there is less need for people to come to NCL as there are so many flights from EDI that were not available previously.
So I believe that is a significant factor in recent years falling passenger nos from NCL.
The people from Scotland used to boost Pax nos from NCL.
Of course EDI has a larger catchment area than NCL and it is a much larger inbound tourism destination.
Despite this NCL still does very well indeed.
Regarding DXB, I don't think the route is ready to go to twice daily anytime soon. We're lucky to have the daily service which has stood up well despite the competition from other carriers at EDI.
I think Emirates has a seat sale on from NCL that should boost passenger nos in the short term.
Of course Ryanair will boost numbers from NCL in the short term but I worry about the long term effect they will have on other carriers. Not to mention the falling pound which could harm outbound tourism severely and therefore the number of people using all airports.

[Skipness One Echo]

EDI was constrained by it's place in the wider strategy of Scottish Airports which saw long haul and sun flights at GLA with EDI feeding LHR and some European point to point. However Scotland has changed a lot since that strategy was sidelined more so now Edinburgh has a Parliament once again and the city was put firmly on the visitors map and has eclipsed Glasgow to some extent.

Emirates may well remain at one per day. Look at Continental at GLA. Started with a B757, moved quickly to a DC10, then a B767-400. When CO launched EDI, we saw summer 757 service at 11 weekly GLA and 10 EDI making three per day to Scotland then that switched to EDI having 11 vs GLA 10. Once the dust had settled, EDI had three daily B757s to two cities, EWR and ORD whereas GLA is back where they started in 1998 with one daily B757 to Newark. I suspect DXB-NCL will remain and do well for EK but may well stay once daily on a B77W whereas GLA will eventually see the A380 and QR and EY will continue killing each other at EDI. There's a wider picture at play.

[jensdad]

Hi all, S1E, I see your point about Edinburgh now being more of a political centre as well as an economic and tourist one. The same could be said though about Cardiff, and they have lost out massively to Bristol in recent times. The drivers of airport traffic are indeed complex. I agree with SWBKCB that we punch above our weight. Be glad that we have a daily link to Dubai which was unthinkable a few years back, and even that we have (well , until tomorrow morning anyway :) ) a link to NYC. Obviously we all want to see growth in our local airport but things could be a lot worse. I wasn't joking when I said that we can quite reasonably compare ourselves to MME. I remember, maybe back in the 80s I don't know, the manager of MME on Look North saying that they wanted to overtake NCL as the North East's primary airport. And at the time it really wasn't as ridiculous as it sounds now.

[oldart]

Not sure if it's true now but the Metro Centre attracted passengers to Ncl from Scandinavia, that's as well as oil related work going the other way.

[fl dutchman]

Statistics.
Airports own figures for July suggest a 5.6% ish increase in total passenger numbers.
Thats 30,112 extra passengers.

Scheduled international up by 37,070
IT down by 592
Domestic down by 5,672
Others

[HH6702]

Starting to look better.

Last day for New York today.
wondering if New York was a bad choice for the first link to the USA.
Would it have made any difference if we had a link to a different hub say Boston or Washington or Atlanta even.
Do the others have a better connections or through border control any quicker?

[GrahamK]

Other than Orlando, New York was the only choice for a flight to the US. Outside of school holiday period, the loads were dire, so no shock to see it not returning.

[Jamesair]

I have to agree with you Graham, it was use it or lose it this year. I think, maybe a two class....business and economy layout aircraft could maybe work. I noticed that business did quite well occupancy wise but premium had largely a dire takeup.

[skyman771]

Well presumably the last UA has now gone, so what lies in store for 2017 onward re North American traffic?, the attention has been on NY but we have lost a lot of connectivity (albeit seasonal) to YYZ, & ORL traffic has been as up & down as the rides at Disney.
I was one of those sceptics that NCL would never get a NYC service & to be fair well done to everyone involved in the two season attempt.
However, though disappointed, I am not at all surprised that it did not succeed, as to many it was only looked upon a another summer holiday destination.
Even then it lacked edge in marketing with endless opportunity for endpoint sale. Las Vegas being a prime example, can't remember seeing seeing any strap line such as "Fly UA direct to Vegas from NCL" with the as ever, omission of the words "non stop".
Taking this from the other side then it was not supported in sufficient no.'s by the business community & hence lower yields, & to be honest there is not much that could be done to address this when choice of routes to US involving a single stop, whether it be in Europe or the US is vast.
Also timings & choice of aircraft limited, old 757's I assume are losing appeal to many.
Finally you have the issue that the service was only ever seasonal, not daily and loyalty programs of the competition.
On another tack there has been much attention to EDI & it's US connections & the undisputed number of US tourists taking in it's attractions. How many came via NCL ? If as I suspect not many then is this also down to UA marketing.
Perhaps this is simply a culture thing, I grow tired in speaking to US citizens who see themselves as having "done Europe" by visiting 5 or 6 capital cities, & with UK then a departure out of London as an adventure & a trip further afield to Bath or perhaps even York as akin to a major expedition, & who typically have no recollection of points in between.
Perhaps NCL should adopt the well worn RYR marketing campaign & adopt name "Edinburgh South"!;) whats a 100 miles or so ?...unfortunately quite a lot !

[sinbad73]

Jamesair - it was a 2 class aircraft. United have Economy Plus which is not a seperate cabin, just seats at the front of Economy Class with extra legroom.

[HH6702]

Totally agree with some of the points skyman made there.
Mainly seasonal route but needs business support and as you said loyalty schemes.
Hard to get people to transfer over for a few months.

Maybe if we had a different airline say Delta as they are part of the KLM/AF codeshare group could a seasonal service had worked with them as the business pax fly direct

Again it would be interesting to see how many of the monthly passengers then went onwards to somewhere else it's a shame that these figures we never find out

[Heathrow Harry]

I guess you'd have to ask is which NE companies need to send people to/from New York on a regular basis? I'd guess not many companies and not many people

[LiamNCL]

Lots of valid sensible points regarding NY. In the end just cheaper alternatives were available and people didnt mind the NCL-LHR-NY or NCL-AMS-NY options. IMO EWR direct is only viable from Newcastle in the winter season as a charter its just a shame Jet2 dont do a more regular winter service because i think they would do really well on it just as the 5 shopping trips prove.

[skyman771]

Personally I don't think that "5 shopping trips" prove much at all.
What conclusions can be drawn ?..possibly that at the right price you can pack pax into "3-3" with 29 inch seat pitch & poor if any IFE. But then this is what they & other airlines have been doing for years on the TFS run & NYC probably + 2 hours flying time out & a bit less back.
Now there is only a certain limited specialist market for these pax & I expect they are particularly price sensitive so very high LF's would have been sought. But then again were these not actually flights, but "all -in mini breaks", which having regards to the UA offering render them irrelevant in any event.
Whilst on with UA pricing then a recent example of a colleague who was is the North East & had need of a one way flight to Florida. UA quoted him c. £4k NCL-Florida one way business class, he was about to confirm this, when it was brought to his attention by a 3rd party that UA offering the same journey but on a "round trip basis" for £2.2k. Guess who was a "no show" for the return leg.......
Unsure what this says but you can see where UA sought their revenue & not in packing them in cheap & cheerful in "Y".

[HeartyMeatballs]

One thing I'm quite confident on is the aircraft choice was not a factor in 99.999% of passenger bookings. Without starting yet another 757 TATL debate, the aircraft provided seats, with TVs and food attached to them and all of those seats went non stop Newcastle to New York. Nobody cares. A plane really is a plane particularly when we are talking a relatively short flight. I can imagine the amount of people who choose not to fly the route because it was a 757 could be counted on one hand. Anyway they best get used to narrow body TATL with the 321NEO and the 737MAX only going to make it more common.

A lot is made on here regarding the pricing. However I must say that the fares down the back were in line with expectations as to what should be charged for a peak time fare and the Atlantic.

Airlines have been charging more for one ways than they have for return flights for decades. It was only a year or so that KLM started offering discounted one ways. Before that a single was twice the price of a return fare. BA domestics were the same years ago.

It was a use it or loose it. Nobody used it and now NCL has lost it. I don't think the 787 or the new UA Polaris product would have saved it. Yes there were cheaper one stop alternatives but the direct flight factor should mean better yields were chargeable.

[LiamNCL]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/thomson-airways-apologise-after-newcastle-11856208

Yesterdays TOM to ZTH diverted to ATH due to electrical storms over Zakynthos

One passenger described it as "Hell" Im sure some people would rather have an accident than be safe , I remember when a BY757 skidded off the runway at GRO all those years back.

[EK77WNCL]

Another top class piece of reporting from the comical...


Brilliant free advertising for Jet2 though, great photo! :ok:

[HH6702]

Just saw that American Airlines are pulling the BHX-JFK from next year.
I'm sure that route started the same time as our seasonal flight.

If all of this is being blamed on the price of the pound I expect to see more flights being lost around the UK

[David Sharpe]

An interesting article on anna.aero looking at Newcastle Airport, comparing seats in November this year with November last year.

One interesting point was that Thomas Cook Airlines seat capacity appears to be down by 31.5%. I realise that it is coming from a fairly low number, but is this all down to the loss of Egypt flights ? (I assume there were a few departures last year before the suspension came into place ?) It seems a fair few less flights in November this year (a loss of over 2,000 departing seats over the month is what the article appears to suggest)

[LiamNCL]

There was no SSH departures in November 2015. There was also no TCX Wednesday flight for a few months over last winter.

[HH6702]

Ryanair adds more flights

Madrid starts end of Marcch 2017

[GrahamK]

2 x weekly so squarely aimed at the city break market, FR building up a decent sized presence at NCL now

[HH6702]

Ryanair I've heard will be launching a few more before the summer starts

[NCL-TRC]

Wouldn't surprise me at all, rumours of a base had also been floating around, but I suspect that the brexit vote has put that one on the back burner.

[HeartyMeatballs]

You know for someone who will 'pivot' growth away from the UK, MOL sure is launching a lot if UK routes. Brexit would seem to be a perfect excuse for him to launch routes with what it essentially cheap foreign labour.

Another HUGE tick in the Brexit box in my view if it keeps his base away from NCL. To my fellow Britons, I say thank you and well done for deciding to leave the EUSSR.

Mind if I was Micky O I'd still feel a bit of a fool for sending out an email to millions congratulating the UK for remaining in the EUSSR. Akward!!

So NCL has its MAD link. Yes, it's operated by FR but even I'm not shortsighted enough to think this is a good thing.

[EK77WNCL]

I'm glad to see we have a link to Madrid now, nice one, will be great to see how it goes, but I'd much rather have seen Iberia Express do it, with better schedule and connecting flights...

I hope easyjet step up and do something for S17, Failing IB express I would have preferred to see EZY do it, I'd much rather see EZY serve routes like Milan, which is probably high up on their list for a new route

I'll keep my fingers crossed, I want to see more FR, but I want them, and NCL to be careful exactly what, and how much more

Anyway, positive move! Most pax from NCL are leisure anyway, and it's nice to see EU cities! Hopefully this means the 3 polish routes are selling well

[NorthEasterner]

@EK77WNCL - Why would you prefer EZY or Iberia to cover the route? Ryanair seem to have more commitment towards NCL by expanding its operations up from only 1 route this time last year to now 12. IB Express wouldn't necessarily have a better schedule, higher fares for sure though.


It's either we have a direct link to MAD or not. A lot more people seem to be trusting Ryanair these days over their improved customer service.


Don't forget we have quite a substantial amount of hub airports including LHR, DUB, CDG, AMS, CPH, DUS, BCN, BRU (in the EU) and finally DXB.


The only gripe I have with Ryanair is their return flight times from certain destinations such as AGP are a tad early.


NE

[Jamesair]

The August statistics are on the airport website, showing an increase in pax of 27,560 over Aug. 2015 and for the first time in ages an increase in total movements at 5040 against 4951 in Aug. 2015. Domestic and IT and other pax numbers fell again with the main rise in International pax.

[GrahamK]

CAA figures for June are out, DXB down again by 7%. EWR was 5073, giving a roghly 60% load for the month. Dbai also roughly 60% for June. No chance of that ever going doble daily at that rate (thogh I do understand May-June are generally the quieter months for EK anyway)

[fa2fi]

Wow, lots of growth from FR. What are the rumoured new routes?

[HH6702]

Friday's now see 9 flights by Ryanair

[sunshine79]

Today's EZY6433 to CFU has diverted to SKG, anyone know why?

Just found out its due to bad weather in CFU

[LiamNCL]

Electrical storms over CFU

[SWBKCB]

From the NIA website:

The route, hailed as a game changer for the North East upon its arrival in 2007, carried 22,745 passengers in August from Newcastle and its Dubai hub.
Nick Jones, Interim Chief Executive at Newcastle International Airport, said: “We are delighted to announce these record figures. The key to the success of Emirates is that it connects the North East to Dubai and then via Dubai to over 150 destinations."

[GrahamK]

That equates to roughly an 86% load for August, not too shabby!

[HH6702]

86% load that's good.
Let's hope those figures continue to rise!

I see that LGW isn't to get the 4th daily flight now in October due to low demand

[ncl2011]

Great news for Emirates, perhaps the mythical double daily service might become a reality one day. On a different note, is there any truth to rumours of handling company Aviator being in finacial difficulty?

[VentureGo]

Paris Orly by HOP! - Newcastle-upon-Tyne appears as destination from Paris Orly with HOP! airline commencing June next year on Wikipedia -Orly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orly_Airport#Airlines_and_destinations
- Can't find any other source for this info. and not bookable on Air France or HOP! website, although commence date is still 9 months away. Any reliable info on this?
Surely if this was to operate, it would damage CDG pax volumes. If it were to replace CDG Air France flights, then I can't see it being a success due to lack of connecting hub at Orly.

[NCL-TRC]

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, I could go on there now and add NCL-HKG with Cathay Pacific, doesn't mean it would have any substance to it. This Orly thing keeps popping up on there every now, and again, probably by someone that has too much spare time on their hands. That and I like to think AF wouldn't be stupid enough to replace CDG with ORY for reasons which you mention.

In summary 99% sure it's a load of rubbish.

Edit: also airlines (especially scheduled carriers) very rarely start new routes in the middle of the summer season.

[SWBKCB]

Newcastle International Airport flying high as passenger numbers, profits and sales rise - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/business/business-news/newcastle-international-airport-flying-high-11961514)

[ash666]

That's a pretty good turnover to profit ratio.

[Heathrow Harry]

"perhaps the mythical double daily service might become a reality one day."

why do you need that? Keep putting bigger planes on the once a day and the price down

[LiamNCL]

"perhaps the mythical double daily service might become a reality one day."

why do you need that? Keep putting bigger planes on the once a day and the price down

one a day is perfect for our airport for now , Dont think we can take anything bigger that EK operates other than the 77W though.

[HH6702]

Emirates needs to add a daily evening service so it can offer better connections to Asia.
The evening service will happen it's just a case of when.

Glasgow got there 2nd flight for 10 years and around 25k a month using the service.
Newcastle isn't far behind that in both service and passenger numbers

[tigertanaka]

The second daily flight would be welcome not only for connections but also for visitors to the UAE.

Arriving around midnight is not ideal when hotels in that part of the world are so expensive. You will end up paying potentially upwards of £200 for a "wasted" hotel night. Much better to fly overnight and arrive early in the morning and make the most of a mini break in the gulf. I have flown BA via LHR to DXB twice in the last couple of years as flight times have been better (and much cheaper) then direct from NCL.

[jensdad]

Jesus. We are a relatively small city in a relatively poor area of the UK with half of our catchment area in the sea and virtually no inbound tourism, and people are complaining that our non-stop service to Dubai is only once a day, and that it arrives in Dubai at such an inconvenient time!

[HH6702]

Yes!!!!

However most people don't go to Dubai they travel onward
Be nice to arrive in the morning if stopping at Dubai only

[ash666]

Just for information, I know Emirates have a very good reputation but I would never use them (tried once, never again) as I hate splitting a long haul journey in 2.
I always go via AMS, LHR or CDG (though won't use them again until they sort out the ATC and pilots' strike nonsense).

[HH6702]

Ash666 your still splitting your journey at AMS,CDG etc ??

[rutankrd]

I know Emirates have a very good reputation but I would never use them (tried once, never again) as I hate splitting a long haul journey in 2

??

Why was your flight an unusual exception poor service or just a cattle class 77W with that 400 + seats?
Just interested to get a perspective of your experience thats all

And your second statement is also interesting especially going east in many many markets (Japan China and Korea excluded) going via the desert from a regional centre is almost always quicker than via a shuttle and golden triangle transfer just fact and to mention the huge range of destinations particularly in the sub continent a single stop away.

Nowhere in the golden triangle offers the extensive one stop network (Most will be a three sectors !)

Or is your motivation actually more about the bribes from the alliance carriers perhaps (Those miles/avios or what ever points !) lounges etc.....

[ash666]

OK, what I meant was that I hate splitting the long haul part in the middle.
Obviously I can't get to Thailand where I have relatives directly from NCL so would much rather (ie 100%) do a short hop to AMS/CDG or train the LHR and then have 1 long flight.
There is nothing worse than having your food, some wine and a movie and when you are ready to have a good sleep you get chucked off the plane and have to hang around an airport for several hours.
The last and only time I did that I was like a zombie when I got on the 2nd plane from Dubai to Bangkok and so tired I didn't have any food or drink at all, all I wanted was to sleep.

The jet lag after that was awful and that is something that doesn't affect me at all with one continuous flight of 10-12 hours.

[rutankrd]

So your quite happy to endure a 3to 4 hour train ride to London, drag cases down escalators and half way down Euston Road to the cramped Hammersmith and District LuL platform ride to Paddington with a bazilian commuters and nowhere for your cases for 25 bumpy and uncomfortable minutes with the adventure and high risk of standing all the way!

Finally get fleeced on the worlds most expensive transport service to Heathrow

Three cheers !

By the time you board that single flight to Bangkok - your already over Iran and beginning the descent but far enough though whatever rocks your boat.

Personally even in a bath chair (Biz seat or coffin with telly) my own threshold and i'am a seasoned traveller has long been 5-6 hours and I seriously want off !

I manage the East Coast okay but going East always fractious but each to their own i suppose.

[ash666]

There is a direct underground train from Kings Cross to LHR.
I find it no trouble at all though I mostly go via AMS.

Can't do any more replies for a while as I'm on my way to the Kielder 10K.

[highwideandugly]

Via Annan?

[Heathrow Harry]

"Jesus. We are a relatively small city in a relatively poor area of the UK with half of our catchment area in the sea and virtually no inbound tourism, and people are complaining that our non-stop service to Dubai is only once a day, and that it arrives in Dubai at such an inconvenient time"

Exactly!!!!!!!!!

[rutankrd]

There is a direct underground train from Kings Cross to LHR.
I find it no trouble at all though I mostly go via AMS.

Aye ye ol' Piccadilly line 20 commuter stops to Heathrow deep tunnel tube train again nowhere to safely store luggage and £6 one way for an hour still of bumpy uncomfortable tiring travel and still the risk and adventure of standing for much of the way.

Still great.

Going via Amsterdam though understandable even if the KLM B77W is little different to the EK cattle class frames (just 3 seats difference !)

[LandingConfig]

Glasgow got there 2nd flight for 10 years and around 25k a month using the service.

GLA's second daily service was announced in early 2012 - just shy of eight years after the route was launched. I imagine cargo figures also contributed to that, not just passenger.

[ash666]

All I can do is repeat that getting the train from the Newcastle area to LHR is not remotely arduous in my experience.
The only problem is the return arrival time of likely airlines is just about too late to be confident of any transport back home.

From AMS you have the choice of KLM, CI and probably others and book at the right time and you can get a very reasonable business class fare (otherwise KLM charge about £600 for the short hop to AMS, greedy sids)

[tigertanaka]

Getting to LHR is fine - the problem is the cost of a flexible railway ticket for the trip home - due to risk of delays etc.

On BA, tickets routed NCL-LHR-??? are generally cheaper than LHR-??? direct. Same goes for KL at AMS (obviously need to add on APD).

[ash666]

BA is too expensive to start with and I've not always found KLM/AMS to be cheaper from NCL (though AF sometimes is).

If you catch it right NCL-AMS-BKK business class can be had for £1700 (CI a bit cheaper but can't book a through ticket) but if not it's £1700 for AMS-BKK but nearly £2300 for NCL-AMS-BKK.

Just on principal, even if I could afford it, I wouldn't pay nearly £600 for a 1hr flight where business class seats are the same size as economy and often the food is identical so all you get for your money is getting on first which never bothers me.
It's a shame they don't let you book a through ticket using economy for NCL-AMS then busy for AMS-BKK.

In the good old days CI used to let you do that (using KLM for the NCL-AMS hop) but not any more.

They call it progress.

[rutankrd]

On BA, tickets routed NCL-LHR-??? are generally cheaper than LHR-??? direct

Normal industry wide practice that supports the Hub and Spoke business model.

Down side is the short domestic/puddle jump flights are seen to book deep crimson in the accounts !

This is countered by charging £300 + for those wanting to commute or make self connects.

Thats what ASH666 has already found on the puddle jump to Amsterdam to join the Dynasty service.

Two tickets and no cross subsidy (unless you buy via a consolidator)

Though not said by ASH666 from Heathrow perhaps he would confirm but i also suspect he's used EVA from Heathrow as well.

Both the Taiwanese carriers offer some pretty good deals across all classes into Bangkok.

Whist writing i also think his jet lag experience with Emirates is more to do with the departure time on the current Newcastle service which dumps you in the desert in the middle of night rather than stage length.

The later departures from other UK airports are popular exactly because they arrive in Dubai in the morning meaning you will have had a nights sleep.

[ash666]

I have used EVA and they are ok and a good price and relatively better in economy than in busy or premium economy.
I have never flown BA to LHR for a connecting flight, too big a chance of my luggage going AWOL.
At least KLM and CI have sorted out their problems in that respect since I stopped using them for a number of years after they p'd me off.

AF premium economy was great except for the non-reclining seats (though that may have changed recently) and VERY variable fares and I still remember the girl at NCL check-in desk trying to sort out KLM economy to AMS followed by business to BKK. I didn't think pockets could hold that many bits of scrap paper!
It didn't seem to be a problem at BKK on the return.

BA and TG are far too expensive to use long haul if you want a bigger seat.

[N707ZS]

Newcastle Airport has re-financed its bank debt.
How big is it now? The Northern Echo didn't say!

[heslop2006]

Personal preference, I guess.

For me, I find it perfectly fine to land at DXB at midnight, then depart around 3:20am with EK to BKK and land lunchtime in Bangkok.

Especially now that I teach at a Thai University, I'm rather glad that we have our committed Emirates service, for when I'm going to and from the UK.

[ash666]

As you say, all down to personal preference.

[Beatts]

Boost for Newcastle Airport in Heathrow expansion plan after loss of New York flights - Chronicle Live (http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/boost-newcastle-airport-heathrow-expansion-11969691)

[Heathrow Harry]

lot of if's but's and mights in that interview...........

[HH6702]

Jet2 have put winter 2017/18 flights on sale

Earlier than normal trying to get in before Thomson and Thomas cook

[sunshine79]

Flew in from Alicante last night to find 3 flights on one belt. Luckily the pax from the TOM flight from HER had just about left as we arrived to the luggage belt. The EZY MLA landed about 15 mins after us and was on the same belt. Luckily my case was one of the first out but I can't understand why they would put upto 2 flights on one belt. On another note, eventually EZY until June 217 goes on sale tomorrow

[HH6702]

Can't see any real changes still looks 3 based for Easyjet mostly done by based aircraft

[apaul]

Newcastle-Geneva drops to twice per week. Think it was more last summer. No sign of Split yet, but it was a short season last year and might be July/August only.

[northumberlandairway]

Surely this can't be right. Was on the IPhone Ryanair app and it lists Newcastle - Norwich. Surely this must be a glitch. East Anglia is a nightmare to get to at the best of times but I really can't see that route generating much income for MOL

[NorthEasterner]

Regarding Norwich.

Ryanair operated a charter 737-700 between NWI-NCL-NWI for the last Newcastle united match with Norwich.

No route is planned between the 2 airports and definitely not with Ryanair since neither of them are bases.

So you're right it is just an app glitch

NE

[Jamesair]

Main differences between Summer 16 and 17 appear to be :- Alicante 7 (6 this year), Barcelona 6 (5), Belfast 19 (18), Berlin 3 (new for summer 17), Faro 6 (5), Geneva 2 (4), Jersey 3 (4), Nice 4 (3).......Corfu 1, Palma 7, Malaga 6, and Malta 2 are unchanged. Rhodes and Split don't seem to be operated.

[fa2fi]

Maybe we will see RHO and SPU appear when the summer flights are released.

[Fairdealfrank]

OK, what I meant was that I hate splitting the long haul part in the middle.
Obviously I can't get to Thailand where I have relatives directly from NCL so would much rather (ie 100%) do a short hop to AMS/CDG or train the LHR and then have 1 long flight.

Agree 100%, although in my case it's between a non-stop ex-LHR or the long way around and a change in the mid-east.

[Ph1l1pncl]

Now that Aviator has announced its pulling out of the UK as it can't make anymoney, I wonder what will happen to its airlines at Newcastle. Will they all go to swissport, BA only switched to aviator this year, or maybe another handling agent like Menzies will come in etc. Apart from BA and Easyjet, who do Aviator handle at Newcastle?

[SWBKCB]

July stats

Airport July 2016 July 2015 percent change

PALMA DE MALLORCA 48,269 42,172 14.5
ALICANTE 40,077 27,084 48.0
AMSTERDAM 32,221 33,744 -4.5
MALAGA 29,350 20,820 41.0
DUBAI 21,440 21,067 1.8
DUBLIN 19,472 16,179 20.4
TENERIFE (SURREINA SOFIA) 17,945 11,284 59.0
FARO 17,301 16,167 7.0
IBIZA 16,485 15,155 8.8
DALAMAN 14,625 23,825 -38.6
PARIS (CHARLES DE GAULLE) 13,283 14,482 -8.3
REUS 12,368 7,615 62.4
ARRECIFE 11,307 9,996 13.1
BARCELONA 9,819 6,936 41.6
CORFU 9,769 10,016 -2.5
RHODES 9,185 8,372 9.7
ZAKINTHOS 9,072 7,886 15.0
MAHON 9,017 8,652 4.2
LARNACA 8,764 8,495 3.2
BURGAS 6,639 6,897 -3.7
PAPHOS 6,285 6,555 -4.1
LAS PALMAS 6,162 2,950 108.9
HERAKLION 6,037 4,353 38.7
GENEVA 5,452 5,585 -2.4
ANTALYA 5,269 7,205 -26.9
FUERTEVENTURA 4,584 5,214 -12.1
NEW YORK (NEWARK) 4,523 3,567 26.8
NICE 4,021 3,891 3.3
DUSSELDORF 3,975 3,910 1.7
DUBROVNIK 3,974 4,307 -7.7
CANCUN 3,878 2,609 48.6
MALTA 3,703 4,845 -23.6
NAPLES 3,289 1,843 78.5
KOS 3,133 3,964 -21.0
VERONA VILLAFRANCA 3,093 2,844 8.8
KEFALLINIA 2,998 3,173 -5.5
SPLIT 2,978 2,184 36.4
SANFORD 2,974 2,875 3.4
MURCIA SAN JAVIER 2,954 5,158 -42.7
BODRUM (MILAS) 2,798 3,527 -20.7
FUNCHAL 2,754 2,581 6.7
GIRONA 2,631 0 0.0
KRAKOW 2,550 2,547 0.1
ROME (FIUMICINO) 2,532 2,591 -2.3
PRAGUE 2,466 2,496 -1.2
PISA 2,452 2,413 1.6
THIRA (SANTORINI) 1,981 1,532 29.3
SKIATHOS 1,951 1,211 61.1
CORK 1,902 944 101.5
BRUSSELS 1,744 2,583 -32.5
COPENHAGEN 1,429 1,690 -15.4
SALZBURG 1,286 1,739 -26.0
STAVANGER 898 1,498 -40.1

[NorthEasterner]

Now that Aviator has announced its pulling out of the UK as it can't make anymoney, I wonder what will happen to its airlines at Newcastle. Will they all go to swissport, BA only switched to aviator this year, or maybe another handling agent like Menzies will come in etc. Apart from BA and Easyjet, who do Aviator handle at Newcastle?
Aviator handle 4 airlines at Newcastle, BMI Regional, British Airways, easyJet and Flybe. Aviator also handle some charter services including Travel Service (excluding Thomson's charter).


NE

[jensdad]

Sorry for the spottery question, but what was the Red and White Fokker 100 I saw going in at lunchtime on Saturday?

[nclops]

It was Denim Air. Private charter from Biggin Hill.

[jensdad]

Thanks nclops :ok:

[ncl2011]

Now that Aviator has announced its pulling out of the UK as it can't make anymoney, I wonder what will happen to its airlines at Newcastle. Will they all go to swissport, BA only switched to aviator this year, or maybe another handling agent like Menzies will come in etc. Apart from BA and Easyjet, who do Aviator handle at Newcastle?

Would one handling agent be allowed to have 100% market share at ncl? It seems very unlikely considering the laws/rules that govern fair trading and competition. Will be interesting to see who else is brave enough to get involved in supplying ground handling at ncl.

[Jamesair]

September statistics now on the airport website.

Another slight increase in movements at 4878 (4857)
pax show an increase to 534,616 (499,679) IT figure went up to 148,526 (145,443) and International 286,195 (249,681)....as usual Domestic fell 98,395 (103,266).

Good to see another 500,000+ monthly figure.

[AerRyan]

What's IT?

[Jamesair]

Inclusive Tour.....TUI/Thomas Cook etc.

[AerRyan]

Ah so Charter basically?

[canberra97]

AerRyan

After 872 posts and obviously an interest in aviation I'm surprised you wasn't aware of what IT stood for, in the 70s and 80s it was common place to use the term IT as in Inclusive Tours for most charter flights.

[AerRyan]

Never came across the term before, not commonly used now. Never seen it used on the Irish airport forums. I'm also a bit young and inexperienced to remember the 70's or 80's, my aviation knowledge only developed from the 00's onwards.

[ash666]

I've been flying abroad since the early 70s and I've never heard of it either.

[10 DME ARC]

IT is a very basic industry term 'Inclusive tour' and since this is supposed to be a professional industry site..........:ugh:

[AerRyan]

Never heard it in Ireland anyway, didn't get the memo about knowing prehistoric terminology.

[EI-BUD]

IT is commonly used in the airline / airport industry. The passenger or layman won't hear it used, just like many acronyms used in the industry, the traveling public will never hear them or be close to them....

Certainly not prehistoric in any sense...