netjets

Errr, yes. And the reason for your last 2 post was............?

I left to an airline. We work hard but, we have some say in the change in our terms and conditions thanks to BALPA. We are expected to do our job to the best of our ability but, the job has limits. We are not expected to do everything and the impossible, we get a loyality bonus every year and we get a better salary.

When I left Netjets I was amazed how I was treated, almost like an adult. I don't know why I didn't see it when I was with the company.

Smeagel

No flies on this boy are there?

aircockroaches

Netjets sound terrible..... had a better impression of them

south coast

My question goes to CL300.

Do you dispute any of the points made by 'netjets', the pros and the cons?

CL300

I understand some of his points , some of the others like no recognition etc.. well, you are paid for a job. Our job as pilots is to fly from A to B, according to safety, legality and if able productivity. thanking you because you did succesfully land at an airport at minimums or did carry pax bags, refuel and all the rest; this is not what I call the extra mile, it is the standard walk.

General Aviation is a tough job, much more difficult than airlines, on this game Netjets is not a bad company, like in every company there is room from improvment, from top to bottom.
Like the training, he mentionned FSI says it all, should he know that 50% of business aircraft pilots are going to FSI the other half to Simuflite ? Does it make a difference ? no... It is just the way the game is played.
I am not going to go through all his post since this is his vision of it, depending on your experience, the time you have joined and multiple factors you can be happy (like me ) or unhappy . The bottom is , if life appears to be so difficult at NTA, wait for the new job....Can be easier, can be worse...
Like in every company, take the best out of it, and there is plenty, if you do not see it, well too bad for you.
Small fleet / big fleet in some companies the citation bravo or the hawker 400XP is the golden aircraft, the other being SE piston or at best twin turboprops, and guess what ? EVERYONE want to go to this hard working horse !!!
In other companies the golden seat is on an Airbus 340 or Boeing 747, and what the pilots are thinking when they are on their 737/320 or embraer 145 ? The same !!
I'm not going into a sterile pro/con toward Netjets or any other company, because all of them would have shortcomings and outstanding features alike. My advice ? Except if you step in a major, BA,AF,LH; NJE is a good alternative if you are looking to this type of flight, if it does not suit your aviation feelings you should leave, but please do not bitch on a company that give jobs to 660 pilots in Europe, just because you could not handle it....(the job)...Be Aware, Open minded, and flexible...and follow the books, if you do not know the books; well, how can you be legal ?

south coast

Thanks CL300.

I do enjoy the job and I think the company is good too.

But you are wrong to say just because they give jobs to 660 pilots one should not highlight what they consider to be the bad points about that company.

I agree, there are many good points and reasons to work for NJ, but I also worry when I hear from some of the longer serving guys that they were on a contract, and remember a contract is supposed to be a legally binding partnership, which stated one thing, ie. 6 on, 5 off and they were then sent a new one saying it is now 18 days, sign it or you dont have a job.

Even you will surely agree that kind of managing is not going to develop a culture of employees who are trusting of their managers, who are happy with their employers, who dont mind extending and reducing for the good of the company?

I think that NJ has the potential to be great, for the customers, for the office based staff and for the flight crews, but certain mind sets need to be changed, from management levels all the way down to line pilot levels.

Also, the issues we all know about will show a move in the right direction if they are fair, competitive and reflective of the markert.

Mr Wonka

I don’t want to get into any personal mud slinging, but, i must admit that i do agree with CL300 previous post.

Having worked for poor pay in a crappy old multi piston a/c's in poor weather, single crew, no ops department, 24-7 standbye, no such roster, no pension no crew meals pay your own medical, management who are crooks etc.... Then the thought of working for a company who will PAY for the type rating, PAY you on time, Pay your medical, Pay for hotel bills, Gives you an actual employment contract, sounds just right for me

If you don’t like it, then there are plenty of us, me included that would love the opportunity, so move on and let us in.

There are to many out there who need to get a grip. Other commercial companies are getting the pilots to pay for type ratings, medicals, line training and that’s before some of them even offer you a contract of employment.

Any jet aircraft will be a golden goose compared to what I’ve been flying recently.... and i'm sure there are guy's and girls who will agree.

Mr W

south coast

Fair point Mr.Wonka, and I couldnt agree more with you.

But, just because what a company offers is better than what you are getting now does not mean the people who are unhappy dont have a right to be unhappy.

Put yourself in the position of a long serving employee, and suddenly your contact was changed, and then someone from another company said, but hey, I will take the new contract any day.

It has not happened to me, and perhaps you misunderstood my previous post, I am very happy with NJ, but would I be foolish to ignore what longer serving people have to say?

I hope to become one of those longer serving people, so actually, it is in all of our interests if people are happy with their job, means they will work hard and make the company more successful.

I am positive, but not stupid.

erikv

I also consider myself one of the happy employees. Of course, it is not perfect and of course people complain. I've met pilots from several major carriers who complained - you will find them everywhere. We are WORKING for a COMPANY, so in the end it is all about money. The problem with pilots is that they choose their carreer out of idealism and that does not mix very well with money.

Yes, netjets has a point when he sums up pros and cons. However, I don't agree that it is all black and white, and that there is so much black. To say that you will have your terms and conditions changed in the future because it has happened one time, three years ago, is not a realistic way to paint the picture - unless he is referring to the anticipated improvements that should be announced in the next month or so! Similarly, I know of a manager who is about to go to a non-apu fleet.

As for the uniform, well... I do find it very flattering that you think it makes me look like a pornstar!

Erik

Smeagel

I don't think South Coast said that because NJ had imposed contract changes before they WOULD do it again. What he said was that this type of behaviour encouraged distrust and a reluctance to put in extra effort.

For a company looking to grow successfully putting your employees on the back foot is hardly a smart move in management terms and shows a lack of training and experience on their part.

ATP_Al

How many hours do NetJets pilots fly in a typical year, if there is such a thing?

CL300

About 600-700 hours fleet depending.

To rebounce to the unilateral change. At the beginning, we did not have even 6_5 we were standby with the owner where ever it was until he decided to come back, came in 6-5 if possible with 18 days of duty, Then a rephrase of 18 days of duty where they will try 6-5.....A lot of fuss for nothing really.
Of course I 'll rather have 6-5 since anything else is really long/short but this is it. Some fllet have a 7 day on , the FA are more likely to be rostered on 7 days, and 3 OFF.... Summer is hard, like everywhere, and winter is OK, But aviation has changed, during the 6 days ON, we are working....

Taxi2parking

Your assertion that it’s all ‘A lot of fuss for nothing really’ demonstrates that you have little grasp of what the majority of NJ pilots think. I would bet money that the 6-5 issue was raised by every single crewmember involved in the survey – bar none.

What’s also worrying is your dismissal of the loss of so many crewmembers as a trivial matter. I’d agree that the loss expressed as an annual percentage is perhaps not unusual within the industry. However, it is not unusual if we are talking of a company that is struggling – a company that is expanding, ordering new aircraft and with a minimal time to command should be deeply concerned at this sort rate of loss of its experienced pilots.

I really hope that this December produces something positive for the crews because without the right sort of people flying our aircraft and dealing with our owners face to face we are going to be in a great deal of trouble.

Smeagel

CL300's agenda is obvious. If you read his posts he is always in favour of NJ's treatment of employees. He fully understands the importance of their disregard for written contracts, terms and conditions and their being altered on the whim of Lisbon yet brushes these factors aside with as much concern as, well, management themselves.

It is just a game to him, on several levels. Firstly the flying is a 'hobby' for CL300. If NJ shut down tomorrow he would suffer no personal hardship hence his flippant approach to long term stability within NJ.

Secondly he enjoys baiting people in here with little concern for how his spin on life in NJ might have serious consequences for those whose job/career is their all.

Agreed but see my comments above. It is a game to him.

And THAT is how the majority of the long term employees feel. Many already have their escape routes lined up.

CL300

Dear fellow pilot,
Of course the 6-5 issue was raised by everyone !! Why shouldn't it ? 10 years ago there was no such thing, then came the 6-5 and in another book the 18 days, when both books were merged together, management came up with a new "deed of variation". Question , how many people whom did not sign it are still in the company? ANd the other way how many whom signed it are still with the company ? At the end of the day, it does not make any difference, because you are SO focused on this little give/take that you do not see the important issues.

Second, Netjets is losing pilots, this is not good, looking to the other airlines they are losing them too, people are shifting until they find their path. Once done, happy life. If you expect too much , you will be disapointed, always !
If you do your job, back up your decisions with hard fact not rumors, then you can fight any comments or situations. this is not only at NJE it is everywhere, the dificult task is to achieve in years what other companies are doing in decades. The company is concerned about anything that can alter the delivery of the product, analyse and take actions or no actions... This is management, we are pilots, if you are not happy , speak up ! If you do not speak, you will get no answers ! Only rumors.
EVERYBODY, is waiting for December will bring, EVERYBODY, will have to make his/her choices at that stage.
You do not know who I am (I hope that everybody know that I am NOT the former hawker 400 fleet manager), and I do not know who you are. What I can say is that if you have concerns about your future and what to be part of the rebirth, try NEPA/IPA, at least you could see yourself in the mirror and say that you have tried to the best of your availabilities.

I love smeagel, a great person ( however I noticed that there is no more princess in SAM, may be a bigger castle ?). A lot of empathy , good judgment , and a REAL something against the company . So I'm sure he can understand that we have to balance his assertions AGAINST by FACTS in favour. This is fair game..
Remember , pprune is rumour network, what you read can be true, half true, wrong; but it should not be diffamatory or insulting. When people are agressive , they are usually wrong, too much bad is as bad as too much good. ( I know the quote he is gonna make out of this one )
I almost forgot, NJE shutting down tomorrow.... Let say there is as much chances as all the other airlines, talk to Sabena, Swiss, and the like, I bet you they would have love to carry on instead of expatriate themselves to the ARCTAN of our living ellipsoid...

Smeagel

The trouble with responding to CL300 (how are you my old chum?) is that it feeds him and I was always told on internet forae not to feed the trolls.

I have made my points, he has made his. As has already been said by others his easy acceptance of NJ management's behaviour is worrying and speaks volumes about his motives. Both sides have laid out their opinions for all to see, sufficient for anyone with an interest to form their own opinion. All they need do is use 'Search'.

As for nobody knowing who you are CL300, I wouldn't be so sure. I'm implying nothing. No threats to expose you (others have tried to do this to me in the past, incorrectly as it turned out) but merely pointing out that your personal circumstances colour your views whether they be real or simply those that you choose to project as those of your PPRuNe persona. you only behave like this in here for some reason. Why?

While you may find it fun there are others who do not have the same luxury and failing to tell them the truth can have serious consequences for them. For their sakes, stop it please.



Sam, says hello and wants to know what you'd like for christmas. He was going to knit you some socks.

Taxi2parking

The little issues you describe may well be little, CL300, but if they are the things that matter to crews then they become important. Without crews the company will fold. If the crews have a perception that the conditions are unjust then they will leave. Obviously we can recruit cadets with 250 hours or open gateways in the former east, but the reality is that company cannot do without the experienced crews.

Your idea that this is all just a process of people finding their ideal niche within aviation is great, but again with so many aircraft arriving in the near future we cannot afford to watch good people drift in and out. However again your argument is flawed. With good terms and conditions people stay in jobs. BA lost 3 pilots last year – given that ours is fundamentally a much more fun and rewarding job there is obviously a problem with terms and conditions within our company. Given the demands of the job, more than another airline, we need experienced people and there is only one way to recruit and retain them.

Still an ostrich’s ‘Head in the Sand’ approach will always see us through ……baahhh

photovoyage

Is there someone who could help me in my prep for NJ interview. Can someone tell me more auboutthe english written test. What kind of questions, grammar? vocabulary?text comprehesion?
thank's in advance

CL300

Well, you are talking about management problems, how to retain crew, how to make them happier and the like. Survey came out, with some proposition, December and father christmas is coming and we will see.
That a major is losing pilots, this is something; that a on demand GA charter is losing pilot this is not unusual; and do you know why ?.... 50% is ego, pilots wants BIG !!! and this is understandable when you are 30 years old, you want to taste the 744 or 777, totally OK. Those pilots you will not stop them, they are gone the day they stepped in the company. 30% is money, not enough paid or what's it. Other percentages are like no respect, bad roster, etc...a kind of Cadet scheme is in the pipe, however well... Eastern Europe, they have russian and chinese experience no ?
And again these are just my thoughts, they are not company's ones. but of course give a 12 days duty, 150K euro a year taxes paid, onshore contract and everybody flying the 7X, I think that not a lot would leave (and even I do not know after 10 years on the 7X)
Everybody has his/her reason to stay/Leave, what I do not like is the over-bitching on a company that took a pilot in and as soon as he/she is gone there is this necessity of dumping s... I hate it..

see you on the line...

CL300

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