space pig

Future netjets wannabees, Jenvey is not telling the complete story, but only showing the good bits. Only after you have bitten the cookie you will see there is a nasty aftertaste:

-Yes we have G5's and the 7X is coming BUT, you have 600 people ahead of you who want to fly these aircraft before you can which realistically means that you will be a co-pilot on a bravo or beechjet for at least a year, then you will be a captain (if you have your 3000TT )on this bravo/beechjet for at least another 3 years and possible more. Now you could be offered to fly a hawker 800 or a Excel if you are lucky. This will keep you busy for another 3-4 years. If you have not pissed off the management so far(meaning: do what you are told, break the rules when they tell you to, exceed the work and rest on a regular basis, fly an aircraft with technical issues which are not written up in the techlog to keep the aircraft flying etc) you will be called to fly an falcon 2000 (no, not the easy mate, that will take more time......)
As you can see we are getting close to more then at least 10 years before you are getting close to the "comfort airplanes"

DID YOU HAVE THAT IN MIND ?? Ok then you should join. But do not just follow blindley what Jenvey is telling because that is only halve of the story. You just do not fly the NICE aircraft within 10 years.

I agree with previous remark that there is no perfect job. However before you give up your precious airline job, think again. Netjets has not been a very kind company towards it's employees. Only because of pressure from Unions, courtcases and VERY PISSED OFF PEOPLE that were running away by the dozens ( close to 80 this year alone) Netjets has decide to "improve a few things" just enough to prevent more people going immidiately.
Airline people came to NJE because they were layed off by all the airlines that went bankrupt, not because of the so called lifestyle, now they can go they will, being pissed of enough by management.

Netjets has not changed. They are still the same as all the hundreds posts describe about things going on within netjets .(just try search)

Netjets is the same old car. They have put new paint on it and want to sell it as a new car. but be carefull, it is a scam.

There are very few people who have been here for more then a few yaers that are still happy. Most who say they are did not qualify for the airlines and are stuck in GA.

Good luck with your decision, but think twice, because must of us are leaving the coming months, that should be a sign................

spanman

After reading the above comments.....whats the real deal with NJE,
for me I've worked in most field's of aviation, but most of my piloting has been in GA..........Just got the call this morning out of the blue, Passed the telephone interview...invited to Farn. mid Jan.

so what can i expect. I know the Sim is of a same type i'm presently on....How about the Tech questions, are they mulit choice? what about this new english test? what am i to be asked at the interview stage.

am i asking to many question's

may be some one could reply

Thanks

spanman

thanks Mike for the info will PM you as and when i have questions to ask.

space pig

"close to 80" pilots leaving? The quote from recent Flight International article was 8%"

WHO SAID THIS ? Right, Netjets spokeperson. Since when is Netjets telling the truth??????????????

We pilots keep our own count and we KNOW who have left and you will see mike, that 80 will not be the final number for this year as December will bring many more after their so called improvement. No suprise, many are French who are going to leave, going to pay double tax......, and germans with militairy pensions and..... etc

"took me just over 3 years"

Mike dear chap, you were asking for it after this comment: you have been management's allie since very long, we all know that . And yes you have been awarded for your " Loyalty" . Your PM skills to "help" newcomers into the company are easily found with the "search function" Search under Mike Jenvey and you will see he is the company's biggest promoter, nothing objective)
So if you want to go the brown arm way, this is indeed a way to get promoted earlier, I forgot to mention that

And last but not least, you were upgraded when there were a few hundred less people in the company, who will be ahead of newcomers, so folks bravo , the 70's stage 2 beechjet and perhaps an excel or hawker is your future for the next 10 years, realistically.

Captain Joe Smith

Is it me or there is too much politics in NJE?

Can someone please paint a realistic picture on the company and what one can expect his/her career path to be in NJE.

I am considering joining early next year but after reading all the various messages I don't know what to make of it. I am sure there are a number of people out there just like me who are considering leaving the airlines for NJE. Bearing in mind all the available options out there, are we going to pay a heavy price for it?

If anyone would like to PM please feel free to do so.

CL300

I 've been upgraded on the same fleet, within 3 years as well. (did not ask as well).You cannot blame people for being there that long either can you ?

Like in any company you have the "flashy shinny up to date plane" can be A340/B744/GLF5/F7X or what's it, and the entry level ATR42/EMB145/A320/B733/C550..... what is the differrence ? You want the BIG toys NOW ? Why ? Ego ? You have a carreer path at NJE, a different one than airlines, but at least you know that there is plenty of large cabin coming in. THE difference is that whatever you fly you will have the SAME salary !!! YOU DON'T need to go to the bigger one for you to have the BIG money, you choose the aircraft that's suit your life style.
French leaving ? Well may be , but not in december I can tell you that, French may eat frogs , but did not affect their brain cells though.
You can try to picture an awful NJE, but you will have to fight long , hard, and with more proven facts to stop the 'war machine' towards one of it's transmutation...

Stage 2......I think you have failed here....Unfortunately for you it is not the only field you do.

south coast

Captain Smith

I have been with NJ for a year and a half now and this is my opinion, and only mine.

I really enjoy working for NJ, the people I have flown with are great fun, friendly, helpful and I can honestly say I have not been on a tour where I really wished I was somewhere else.

I cannot fault the company on anything directly affecting me, I was paid a full salary from day 1, even though it took me 3 months from INDOC to start line training (due to type rating in USA and CAA efficeincy).

Having never flow for an airline in the UK, I can only judge from the likes of PPJN that the salary is acceptable, we always want more.

The tax issues, well that is a sore point for many, but as a UK resident, we have always paid tax at source and therefore it is just accepted as a necessary evil.

I am not going to comment on those who enjoyed either very low levels of tax or zero tax contribution who now have to pay what is a pretty standard level of taxation, draw your own conclusions.

The company has realised that there are issues with which the masses are not happy with and are taking steps to make good such things.

Now this is where you have to decide what side of the fence you are going to sit, and I respect both sides.

You can be fairly new or positive and believe, the company have realised the errors they have made and are now going to address them.

If you are a long term NJ employee, you might well say, the things they are giving to us are what we actually signed up to, ie. 6-5 roster, and why has it taken them so long to implement such changes?

I understand that the management do not have a lot of credit with the long serving guys as they 'have seen it all before', but maybe just maybe, the new management is different and want to make the package attractive.

So, I understand those who say they are not prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, as the market is good at present, and have voted with their feet.

The other option is to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if things get better, and the third option is, well, it is still better than my old company.

So thats how I see things, and with respect to your initial inquiry, things cant be that good at your airlline otherwise you wouldnt be looking to leave, so with that in mind, NJ is not perfect, it is not the worst, it is not the highest paid, but it is not the lowest paid, it is all about the best lifestyle for you.

keepin it in trim

South Coast

rather like you, I have been here for nearly 2 years. I think your post is a pretty balanced overall view.

the fleet I am on has a great bunch of people to work with, a very varied set of destinations and a good aircraft. Our fleet management are also good guys and the fleet is growing FAST.

It really is horses for courses, it won't suit everyone, and I am sure there are better paid jobs in the world, but it is never just about the money. For me the overall job and package are good.

Yes there is room for improvement, and like south coast I am going to give the new management a chance to prove they are honest and sincere in what they say. If they come through on that, great, if they don't they will have blown it big time with a lot of people.

erikv

I joined with south coast and agree with him, except... we were actually paid from day 0 which was the day prior Indoc on which we traveled to Lisbon.

To me, it looks like management are definitely on the right track. Our CEO came to reign last April and has since appointed a HR director, had a survey carried out among all employees, has identified the main culprits and has taken action. The much-discussed new pay deal is not finished, it is the first step that takes care of the top three issues. On top of that he is taking every opportunity to set the right example towards the troops and is addressing the whole atmosphere in the LIS headquarters. I find that enough action to give management the benefit of the doubt.

Erik

hawkerpilot

Survey under Netjets pilots after the "NEW PACKAGE" was announced:

33% good enough for me
33% bit disapointed
32% NOT GOOD, I AM LEAVING AS SOON AS I CAN
1% No answer



This poll was taken of 115 people, which is a representative part of the group of pilots. Extrapolated to the current numbers we are talking about close to 200 pilots leaving when they can.

MUST BE A GREAT PLACE TO WORK , RIGHT?

hawkerpilot

cl 300:"I 've been upgraded on the same fleet, within 3 years as well."

He, good to see you back, haven't heared from you for a while, Yes I know you were busy with your 2000 easy typerating together with your mate

No need to comment how you got upgraded within 3 years, but many people on the 400 are happy you did...

erikv

Thought you had left by now, you've been teasing us with it for months... You forgot to mention the 1% stating he/she was jumping up and down with joy. Representative? I don't know any unhappy pilots that avoid the forum, but I know plenty of happy ones that don't go there. The 32% you've quotes as leaving as ASAP, accounts for 38 actual votes.

Erik

Smeagel

Joe. My advice would be wait and see if management really do improve T&C's. Truth is these changes (which others have correctly described as being in part what was in our contracts in the first place and were removed without consultation) have only come about under threat of a union.

If the promised changes do not materialise then I doubt that you, coming from a 'proper' airline background, will like it much. It's just too gash at times.

Times to command on a larger aircraft WILL be longer than a year or so. Just ask the guys who agreed to stay on non-apu fleets for 18 months and are still there over two years later. While management are presenting a new public face many in Lisbon seem unable to break the habits of a lifetime. The oft heard "But we don't do deals" is still thrown back at crew who agreed to help out and in return are left dangling. The fleet growth is slowing so you can expect to tread water for a bit.

It is well worth sitting yourself down at the computer with a cup of tea and using the 'search' function in here. It will be immediately obvious who sits on which side of the fence. What may not be quite so obvious is how some have shifted their stance as the honeymoon period has worn off, others since the announcement of the new pay arrangements. Somewhat misleadingly one of those people still punts the pro-company line here but appears to have had the scales fall from his eyes in another more private forum. Not cricket.

Numbers leaving? The official line is 50 so far in 2006, ask any pilot who knows a few people and he/she will say it is higher than that. The NJE spokesperson quoted above said that 8% was an unacceptable loss. Funnily enough no more than a few weeks ago the company line, repeated by some appearing in this thread, was that it was more or less normal.

Do your homework, wait a bit, make your choice.

As Hawkerpilot has said some of us are already one foot out the door. Here, have my seat

Smeagel

Apologies for the double post.

Erik. I believe membership of the other (NJE crew) forum is approaching 400.

If, as you imply, only the unhappy ones use that forum that would mean by your own admission that two thirds of the crew are unhappy. Something the poll quoted by Hawkerpilot would seem to confirm.

See what happens when you start playing with statistics?

space pig

"This poll was taken of 115 people, which is a representative part of the group of pilots. Extrapolated to the current numbers we are talking about close to 200 pilots leaving when they can."

Erik V, what hawker pilot is saying, makes sense. You mention the 38 pilots, which is the 32% he mentioned that want to leave asap.

As with any poll, a representative part of the population is taken. I would say 115 pilots is representative.(of 500+ pilots)
As Smeagel points out, people in favour and against the new package have voted ( hence the 33/33/32/1 % split) Not just the unhappy people otherwise it would be 99% leaving.

I can only conclude this is close to reality and extrapolated means indeed close to 200 pilots who want to leave asap.

THAT MEANS NETJETS EUROPE AS A WHOLE IS ON THE BRINK OF COLLAPSE.

But Erik, even trying to be on your side and stick to the 38 pilots who want to leave ON TOP who have allready left ( according to management 50, allthough we all know there are close to 80, but never mind I try to stay on your " positive side"
so 50+ 38 = 88 pilots this year alone!!

Even that number (88)netjets cannot cope with the fleetgrowth as planned.

No, I would say Netjets is no safe bet at the moment for a future. Follow Smeagels advice and at best wait and see what is going to happen next summer when the things are heating up.

And for those youngsters with netjets commenting on us , who have been here a few more years: Do not forget that WE are the experienced captains with Netjets, the TRI's , Linetrainers and standardscaptains. THOSE people are NOW leaving. No trainers, no one is being trained. Get it?

Better ask yourself WHY we are leaving. But if you wait a few more years you get the answer, or listen to us now: Leave before it is to late, that's what we do.

space pig

Perhaps Mike can enlighten us ?

What is your positive view?

CL300

It is not mike, but,

The positive view is that there is a solid base of customers, I'm not going to reveal numbers on a public website regarding revenue and cashflow, numbers were given to NJE employees on the road show, and will be given to new hires at indoc, after having signed the confidentiality agreement (remember, Hawker, Smeagel, space pig ?). With these numbers, there is a strong probability, that the company would last as long as the other ones, (there is no guarantee in aviation world, sabena ,swissair usw ). Netjets is setting the path of another aviation, somewhere between GA and airline. There is simply NO benchmark, all of you are trying to compare 2 worlds that will never meet; Line trainers living... ok, did these guys really want to be there at the first place or using this position as a leverage to jump seniority ?
Netjets is writing its history, there is good things and bad things and things are moving, may not suit everybody in the short term, but I'm truly convinced that we go in the right direction. ( for your info , I'm with the one's for whom the new deal is not that good). For the new people joining, it will be great, give me ONE name of a company where a C550 captain, year 0 can make 95000 Euros working 200 days a year ? or 50 max per quarter ? with a proper roster ?. Now you are going to tell me how about the G550 captains ? they have the same salary !! This is not really correct, since you (generally) do not start your left hand seat experience at Netjets (year 0) on a gulfstream !!

and for the one who moved sooner to the large cabin, well, may be they had more hours, other type of experience, already have the type rating and the like. EVERY month there is a meeting that decides not only fleet change, but upgrades and so forth...If nobody (even your fleet manager) is able to spell your name, you will be on the queue, it is the same for all companies...
I did change fleet 9 months ago, (one week apart from mike), without asking, having a positive attitude towards your life is a good secret, there is NOTHING personnal at NJE , (I'm tempted to say anymore, even if I never experienced any of this behaviour), the company is too big, roster is set up by a computer, with set datas, very little human input.
This is an aviation company, when you set your foot in, it is for a carreer, if you use it in being desperate or as a jump, you are on the wrong path and you need to correct your pitch....

For all of you still bitching, reporting private forums in a public one, I say again, how worth are your words ? and even worse your signature ? You attitude is childish, irresponsable and reprehensible. You were, all of you, very happy to be fed by NJE, (and still are since you can spend time here, won't be the case in your new life); so face your ego, and visit a specialist.

erikv

See the numbers as you see fit. When I'm on the line I regularly ask people if they go onto the closed forum on jetblasters. A good part (I'd say almost half on my fleet) can't be bothered. They are fairly happy, have gone on there once, saw too much negativity and hardly ever go back. That might explain the big difference between the number of registered crew (400) and those who responded in this thread (115).

If it was all just terrible, I am sure people would be running towards union representation, not? The move has been going on for 6 months and still hasn't gained significant momentum. That tells me more than a mini-survey under a biased cross-section.

Again, it is not all perfect, but I have yet to find another employer that pays me 95000 euros within 2 years from joining, for working 178 days per year (200-vacation) with a solid roster.

Erik

space pig

So,why, despite the good Salary, people are leaving by the dozens?

Life is not only about money

Rather earn a little bit less and be with a company that I like for the last 25-30 years of my working life.

There comes a time in your career that you are seen as to old to be attractive and there is nowhere to go. You could regret it if it happens to be GA.Airlines are not keen on hiring GA guys.

Would be sad if you put your bet and fate of your family depending on you, on a GA company like netjets, only to find out in a few years that it was just an American air bubble. NJE america will survive because the pilots are unionized which benefits both parties. Netjets Europe will collapse because denial, arrogance and dictator style management is still in place. But in a free world, YOU can choose your own faith.....and decide who you want to work for.


and cl300: the information we use is available on public sites, nothing secret about that, Pilots don't think in cashflows and profitmargins. We keep it simple without managementtalk: No pilots, no flights , no growth, easy right?

silverhawk

Until they recruit direct entry into the left hand seat they will always struggle for adequate staff. No-one in their right mind will leave a command position with an established outfit to go rhs on any bizjet.


To those of you who will be on tour over the holidays, Merry Christmas, Seasons Greetings, Happy Holiday or whatever doesn't offend.

Do the customers REALLY need an aircraft on standby on Dec 25th?