BELFAST AIRPORT INTERNATIONAL

[AerRyan]

Might be useful for inbound tourists, people always prefer to make the journey at home.

Still market limiting though, how much is the question.

[mart901]

Yes Aer Ryan agreed, however a service is better than no service. And given two other factors, 1) Norwegian look set to make a big go of whichever out of town airports they pick and 2) they are starting to look at through ticketing/baggage arrangements with other airlines I'd say it's highly likely connections will spring up. Scheduled airlines use Stewart for instance already, it's just not terribly busy, not quite the military base it's being made out to be.

[owenc]

That argument Owenc is great until you factor in the 2hr bus ride here after the flight back. Also the interstate in US is much better than the A1. It's 60miles Stewart to NYC, DUB to Belfast is 100.

Going to be closer to 2 hours from NYC. You have to encounter Manhattan traffic.

[Copenhagen]

In NY city, marketing an unused, unknown, far away airport (Stewart) and an unfamiliar airline (Norwegian) operating to a tertiary market (Belfast) will be a tough task.

The lack of public transport on the NY end of the route will make it an expensive taxi ride to downtown for passengers. UberX is quoting $160 - $200 or up to $300 for an XL.

Norwegian will have to rely even more on Belfast based traffic heading to NY than United. No connections. No US loyalty base. I'd be much more optimistic if this was flying to JFK than Stewart.

[Copenhagen]

Yes Aer Ryan agreed, however a service is better than no service. And given two other factors, 1) Norwegian look set to make a big go of whichever out of town airports they pick and 2) they are starting to look at through ticketing/baggage arrangements with other airlines I'd say it's highly likely connections will spring up. Scheduled airlines use Stewart for instance already, it's just not terribly busy, not quite the military base it's being made out to be.

Currently DL operates to DTW and AA to PHL. B6 operates to Florida. Considering the animosity of the formers, I just can't see any of these feeding Norwegian.

I'm. It sure if any route is better than no route. If Norwegian fail, it will be very challenging to attract other airlines onto the route.

[mart901]

You could say the same of SNN and ORK. It won't take long for transfer and coach companies to arrive on the scene. Remember this is how FR made it big, flying into out of town airports. Over time they gained bargaining power.

[VickersVicount]

its time airlines dont have now to allow routes to bed in and establish ie UA NCL. So cant see them allowing years to gain passengers and recognition at secondary airports.

[mart901]

The whole point however of United pulling out was not lack of passengers or loosing money, it was the passenger mix not fitting their business model. Norwegian is driven by leisure passengers, to me that and the combination of low fares which will potentially pull people away from DUB will be the key.

[EI-BUD]

Mart901,

If Norwegian entered Belfast, they will not pull many away from Dublin. With daily service to New York by 737 (lets assume a 189 seats), at 100% fill they will marginally improve over the numbers achieved by the daily 757 of UA.

More importantly:

Flights to the USA from Dublin are carrying a significant amount of passengers from points in the UK and Europe, not just EI but OALs too e.g. Finnair, Turkish, Lufthansa, Swiss, Air France. Star, Sky Team and One World are all well represented in Dublin.

UA have said that 60% of their traffic goes on from EWR and EI are seeing a similar proportion of traffic not flying P2P, i.e. flying on from US gateways.

More importantly a greater share of tickets for travel to/ from or through Dublin are purchased in the US, not just for EI but the US carriers to.

Though small the numbers that Icelandair pick up at BHD (these will be destination US/CA), these will eat into what a dedicated service ex BFS would deliver, this should be added to the overall mix.

So as much as I like to see Belfast Airports prosper, there is no threat posed here to DUB, and with a brand like Norwegian who to date have no onward feed in the US and little brand awareness(though I don't underestimate this will change), I am not convinced that they will see that great of uplift in numbers when compared to UA, as like through Dublin, a lot of people who flew UA were going to other points in the US and not just New York. Data I have seen recently for the whole Belfast market shows that other points can be just as popular as NYC, like LAS, MCO, SFO and BOS, and a lot of this is low yield Leisure business.

IMHO, WOW would be a way better fit for BFS right now. Feeding passengers through KEF offering a range of destinations not just in the US but also in Canada, a destination that has been popular in the NI market in the past.

[Copenhagen]

You could say the same of SNN and ORK. It won't take long for transfer and coach companies to arrive on the scene. Remember this is how FR made it big, flying into out of town airports. Over time they gained bargaining power.

Public transport from Shannon is poor and it has 2m Pax. Stewart has 5 departures a day at present, many on CRJs. This does not allow for public transport. ORK is a few miles from the city, so it isn't apples to apples.

[mart901]

I meant ORK and SNN being a territory market. Also EI-BUD I mean pulling NI pax back from DUB with the lower fares as opposed to otherwise. But yes indeed it's a needle in a haystack

[AerRyan]

Public transport from Shannon is poor

Disagree, there are buses arriving and departing very regularly throughout the day. Buses to Limerick every 15-30minutes. It's closer to Limerick than Aldergrove is to Belfast too. (30km vs 25km).

Besides the point though.

[Copenhagen]

Most of the Shannon busses are either local busses or on the Limerick - Galway express bus. The Stewart busses would be airport only.

My point is that in Ireland, good public transport exists and in the US, public transport is sparse on the ground. A $400 return cost for an Uber would be painful after a cheap flight, considering Belfast to Dublin Airport on the bus is probably no more than $25 return. (far less than just the prerequisite 15% tip in the US on top of the Uber fare)

How many UK airports have flights to NY? 6?

[mart901]

As if no transfer/coach company will offer a service. I would imagine the vast majority of pax would be heading to New York, even New York hotels themselves offer transport. It's guaranteed revenue, 100+ pax arriving in pre-booked transfer coaches

[GAZMO]

Whichever airline operates I feel that connections are essential for the route to be a success

[MJ787]

Would something like this be outside the realms of possibility for Belfast? Emirates to start Dubai-Athens-Newark flights, likely to irk U.S. carriers | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-emirates-airline-fifthfreedom-idUSKBN15716K) it would kill two birds with one stone, get a direct link to both UAE and the US. It would be good for connecting pax as well. This will be the first direct year round flight from Athens to the US in a long time. One issue (i'm sure there are plenty) might be the aircraft type and whether BFS could cope with a 777 or similar as Emirates only operate the big aircraft types? It would be great if BFS could attract this kind of fifth freedom flight option.

[AerRyan]

Short answer, no.

[owenc]

Any perspectives from Northern Irish posters?

[AerRyan]

The local answer is generally not the realistic answer, albeit with exceptions.

What does Belfast offer, that other airports don't?

[A320.b744]

It'll never happen, especially given that from June all three Middle Eastern carriers will operate at least daily from Dublin, with Emirates considering adding the A380 on their route to DXB. It would be much easier (and profitable) for Emirates to fill a B773 (or A380) if they use a major airport as the stop-over. Athens, despite being a very popular tourist destination, only has seasonal services to the US (PHL, JFK, EWR) from US carriers - it makes sense for Emirates to offer the year round EWR connection. In addition, Emirates already operates double daily flights from ATH to DXB, albeit with a stop-over in Larnaca; the DXB end of the route is well established - flying from Belfast would be an complete shot in the dark.

[Una Due Tfc]

They already put a 380 through Milan to JFK IIRC

[A320.b744]

They already put a 380 through Milan to JFK IIRC
Yes but Emirates operated the DXB-MXP route for several years before adding the JFK sector - the demand was already there to fill a B733 with just passengers travelling to MXP.

[BFS BHD]

BHX now on sale.

[A320.b744]

Well I suppose we can call this good news. One round trip flight isn't quite the service we've been hoping for though...

Jet2.com adds New York route | Belfast International... (http://www.belfastairport.com/blog-news/2017/january/jet2com-adds-new-york-route)

[owenc]

7 days is the absolute minimum that I would personally do a NYC trip.. 4 days seems ludicrous for the time difference.

[A320.b744]

Agreed; 3 full days and 2 half days is simply not enough time to spend in NYC. Flights are also expensive in comparison to other Jet2 flights to EWR. £592 pp return from BFS, but only £410 pp return from LBA, and below £500 for EMA, MAN, NCL.

[GAZMO]

Great to see BHX available to book.
Still find it strange that EZY are doing extra flights to the bucket and spade routes in April and early May.....will they be continuing this into the summer period?

[A320.b744]

Great to see BHX available to book.
Still find it strange that EZY are doing extra flights to the bucket and spade routes in April and early May.....will they be continuing this into the summer period?

Easter is quite late this year - 16th April - so I'd assume that is partly the reason for more flights on sun routes during April/May.

[mart901]

Good schedule for BHX albeit without a Saturday flight. On the subject of NYC breaks its pretty common for people to go for 3-4 nights. NYC hotels are very expensive and it's a city break after all. At the moment you can get £328 return with BA/AA via LHR with as little as 1hr on the ground at LHR, full service with everything included so LS flight only isn't really competitive.

[AerRyan]

1 trip is quite abysmal, I've have thought maybe 4 or 5?

[GAZMO]

Mart901- Saturday flights to BHX are starting from 1st July

[mart901]

Thanks gazmo. Relieved the route is staying, I like BE and BHD is closer but me and the little fella can travel in March for £52 return in total, its served us well.

[BFS BHD]

Belfast mentioned in The New York Times for Norwegian. :)

Later this year, Norwegian plans to begin flying out of new American cities to include Newark; Newburgh, N.Y.; and Providence, R.I. On the other side of the ocean, it will begin to operate out of new cities including Barcelona; Belfast, Cork and Shannon in Ireland; and Edinburgh, Scotland. Average fares on the new Irish routes are expected to be $300 to $350 round trip, tax included.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/17/business/norwegian-expands-in-the-trans-atlantic-market.html?_r=1

[owenc]

Stewart airport won't work..

[A320.b744]

Norwegian currently fly from two Caribbean destinations (PTP and FDF) to JFK, BOS, BWI and FLL with the 737-800 during the winter. Given that a potential BFS service would likely use the 738, I suppose it could make sense to operate to JFK. Yes, landing fees would be higher, but Norwegian already have the right aircraft and crew based out of JFK, and given the lack of direct competition that they'd face on the route, they'd be able to charge higher fares than on their potential EDI route.

Of course, this is purely hypothetical, and Stewart flights seem the most likely, but Norwegian's New York strategy doesn't seem to be that of a LCC: 6 European routes and 2 Caribbean routes out of JFK, and 1 European route out of EWR.

[AerRyan]

The fact that the NYT thinks that Norwegian will be flying from EWR and that BCN will be a new routes says enough about the integrity of that article.

Of course it's possible, still think it's the most viable option for the moment.

We don't know what Norwegians tactics will be. They may well try BFS as a test for the market. They are also one of the only airlines willing to do 3/4pw Transatlantic to the East Coast. Most other airlines is 5pw+ or no route.

[GAZMO]

If to be successful they have to offer connections within the USA and beyond. I think UA quoted 60% of pax connected via EWR. I don't think there are sufficient numbers for point to point from BFS. Only my view

[A320.b744]

The fact that the NYT thinks that Norwegian will be flying from EWR and that BCN will be a new routes says enough about the integrity of that article.


Where is Norwegian?s latest long-haul base? :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/268762/where-is-norwegians-latest-long-haul-base/)

Norwegian Air to fly to Spain from four U.S. cities (http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2016/09/07/norwegian-air-fly-spain-four-us-cities/89962580/)

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/268747/norwegian-launches-barcelona-us-service-from-june-2017/

All of these state - including the airline's own website - that Norwegian will fly between BCN and EWR, so I don't understand why we should question the integrity of the article.

[AerRyan]

Because it reeks of poor research. Besides the fact that the BCN-LAX/OAK/EWR will be operating on a separate entity, it also gives the impression that you'll be able to fly from Cork/Shannon/Edinburgh/Belfast to there too.

I'd also like to see another article where Belfast is mentioned.

[A320.b744]

BCN-LAX/OAK/EWR will be operating on a separate entity

The article is telling us that Norwegian - which includes Norwegian Air Shuttle and its subsidiaries - will start operating new transatlantic routes. The simple truth of the matter is that BCN-EWR is a transatlantic route that Norwegian will start this year. I don't think that anyone cares whether it's Norwegian Air Shuttle, Norwegian Long Haul, Norwegian Air International; it's still Norwegian. Therefore it makes perfect sense that the New York Times would include BCN in its article about new transatlantic services to the New York area.


it also gives the impression that you'll be able to fly from Cork/Shannon/Edinburgh/Belfast to there too.

Where does the article give you that impression?


Norwegian plans to begin flying out of new American cities to include Newark; Newburgh, N.Y.; and Providence, R.I. On the other side of the ocean, it will begin to operate out of new cities including Barcelona; Belfast, Cork and Shannon in Ireland; and Edinburgh, Scotland.

The article simply tells me that Norwegian will start flying transatlantic routes out of a range of cities - it doesn't give any route pairs.

[owenc]

I can't think of a more credible news corporation over the New York Times? What more do you want?

[cuthere]

You fellas sleeping? From Julian O'Neil on twitter:

.@SimonHamilton tells MLAs he's approved funding to help direct flights to 2 US cities from @BelfastAirport. Believe this is Norwegian Air

@SimonHamilton @BelfastAirport Believe this maybe NY and Boston. But Norwegian Air still considering the proposition

[GAZMO]

Very good news for BFS. Thanks Cuthere for the news:D

[AerRyan]

Interesting,

Keep the excitment until it's announced!

[SecondDog]

Interesting,

Keep the excitment until it's announced!

Sure Trump might still scupper the whole thing, the US carriers will not be very happy I'm sure.

As for all the discussions about the limitations of Stewart above in terms of time constraints travelling in to the city. Wouldn't the quicker processing through immigration at a small airport like Stewart compared to EWR (which can be a couple of hours on a good day) offset the extra time to transit into NYC? All a bit swings and roundabouts to me. I think if the services do come about they will be well used.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Meeting with Trump now.....

[Husky One]

Do not underestimate the power of US ALPA. They have more lobbying influence than Boeing in congress and want Norwegian off their patch. Trump should have some sympathy for this.
If Norwegian is to be the new BFS incumbent then fair enough but it's lack of interline connectivity will restrict its use. Certainly no good to me so it's coaches to Dublin for the foreseeable future.

[840]

I believe Trump can only block Norwegian up to January 31st. At the moment he seems to have other pre-occupations, but nothing would surprise me.

[mart901]

Having read the hansard from yesterday's Stormont it seems it's a support package related to the route development fund, the airline in question has proposed two routes and is considering the package on offer. It does sound awfully like Norwegian, also reference was made to the fact several airlines have expressed interest, more than the three mentioned.

Also a random point, which I know will upset a hornets nest on here is the state funded 2nd runway at DUB which was half jokingly suggested as a possible cause for complaint to the EU over state aid......

[EI-A330-300]

The state funded runway thats costing passengers 0.60, rather shows incompetence in NI....

I hope that they comply with state rules for this round of financial aid, wouldn't want to be caught a second time!

[mart901]

Hahaha couldn't resist... Mind you BFS could have funded United with a few wood pellet burning devices...

[BFS watcher]

The state funded runway thats costing passengers 0.60, rather shows incompetence in NI....

I hope that they comply with state rules for this round of financial aid, wouldn't want to be caught a second time!

Must be a subsidy somewhere.....€0.60 extra per pax will take an awful long time to get be money together the €300M ( okay €600m) to pay The contractors or will DAA be using the Donegal white van brigade to keep costs down!

[EI-A330-300]

BFS Watcher

Its an asset which doesn't have to pay for its self in one go, based on current numbers staying static it will pay its self in 20 years and the 0.60 is levied. For an asset with a life longer than that 20 years is nothing.

Just like the 1.2 billion development was sourced via bonds on the markets. It wont exceed 320 million as passenger charges wont be allowed to cover it.

You should launch a complaint......I could make my first ever notification to an EU body if new T/A routes are announced to ensure NI are playing by the rules but saying that I have better things to do with my time than running to Brussels dictators.

[BFS BHD]

FAA holds up Norwegian Airlines Stewart service (http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2017/January/26/NorAir_SWF_FAA-26Jan17.html)

[GAZMO]

back to speculation..... With a short time until end of March and the start of the summer season schedule, has anyone any knowledge of what Ryanair are going to do with the timetable of the current lunchtime flight to LGW.
FR dropping from 5 to 4 daily. Can't see FR leaving the aircraft sitting on the Tarmac from noon to 4.30pm

Any ideas guys?

[OneBellEnd]

Only got less than 2 hours mid afternoon. Allowing for turnarounds, doubt they could even do BFS - Isle of Man - BFS within that gap!?

[BFS BHD]

The gap is between around 12-4...

[AerRyan]

What can you do in that timeframe though? A daily UK route? Timing isn't great, especially if there is competition which has proper timings available.

[BFS BHD]

Wouldn't even be daily as ACE departs Monday and Friday at 06:45 and not back to 15:50.

[AerRyan]

It's strange, but nothing in my eyes would fill that gap, unless they attempt soemthing bizzare like 5pw NCL.

[BFS BHD]

LGW seems to go down to 4 daily the day before STN-LDY ends for Ryanair. I wonder are they planning on moving it to BFS using the 5 weekly flights plus STN based aircraft for other flights to BFS?

[AerRyan]

I doubt it, getting very late for Ryanair announcements.

I have seen Ryanair put some slack into the schedules even peak summer over the past few years, it's getting more and more common as more aircraft get delivered.

[Cozy F]

The only route I could think of that is short enough, has enough potential traffic and isn't well enough served from Belfast for 5 weekly off peak flights to make real sense is Cardiff. ��

[AerRyan]

Ryanair only operate TFS from Cardiff, I can confidently say that won't happen.

Ryanair have grown alot! Let them maintain and cement their current routes, everything's not all more more more.

[mart901]

FR have been in negotiations with LTN and STN about starting a service. Quite possible as has been said it would be complimented by LON based a/c giving up to 3 per day on such a route, although of course possible they were holding out for BHX and now the 5th daily LGW will be reinstated. Unless a random LBA route or such suddenly appears....

[Refuellerman]

I see the daily a320 ezy 830 to gatwick has been a a319 and the 320 goes to stn, must be feeling the harp up their a##e!

[West Brit]

So with Birmingham loaded, is EasyJet down to 4 aircraft this summer?

[Husky One]

Why would the confirmation of an existing schedule lead to the loss of an airframe ?
Confused.
Easy have 5 a/c in BFS and no planes to reduce that figure this year. There is talk of a second 320 to replace another 319 but unlikely.

[West Brit]

Husky One

I checked Monday 03 July and the Saturday before, and the complete Belfast based schedule seemed based on 4 aircraft.
The Birmingham schedule has no week day early morning departures throughout June, July & August. Glasgow has been cut back significantly, I was just wondering if all the flights had been added?

[BFS BHD]

https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/us-dot-norwegian-stretch-wings/

Not 100% sure if this just means flights from Cork, Shannon ans Dublin will go ahead or it includes EDI, BFS etc as well? Or im reading it wrong all together! Only had a quick look at it.

[AerRyan]

They're using the Irish subsidiary, but nothing has been said by Norwegian other than a few thinly veiled promises.

Never know though!

[DC9_10]

Does anyone else wonder how long it will be before Ryanair become Northern Ireland's largest airline. From small apples grow big trees. Easyjet want the business passengers, however, the BHX and GLA schedules for spring/summer are horrendous. Scheduling from season to season becoming more inconsistent and seems to be the case around a lot of UK bases. If they want to attract more business passengers then schedule the flights to be business friendly. Simples.

[AerRyan]

Well you're certainly optimistic.

[DC9_10]

Aeryan, never say never lad. In this industry, anything is possible.

[AerRyan]

Possible and realistic are two different things though.

Easyjet will want to defend their territory, I can't see them just letting Ryanair take the upper hand and push them out. This could result in very high passenger numbers if the two airlines intensify competition, but do be warned that increase is usually only temporary.

First of all we need to see an indication from Ryanair that all is going well currently and they want to continue growth.

[DC9_10]

Very well put AerRyan and EZY seem to be holding up well on london routes especially LGW where they have increased schedule and LPL where they are trouncing BE on their third attempt on the route. BHX and GLA seem to be different and in my opinion, they are handing business pax to Flybe on a plate.

[AerRyan]

Maybe a bit of helpful competition would help Easy Jet solve their BHX schedule?

[EGAC is Better]

Possible and realistic are two different things though.

Easyjet will want to defend their territory, I can't see them just letting Ryanair take the upper hand and push them out. This could result in very high passenger numbers if the two airlines intensify competition, but do be warned that increase is usually only temporary.

First of all we need to see an indication from Ryanair that all is going well currently and they want to continue growth.

Just a simple one off example and should be taken as such...however they aren't defending their territory very well when I need to fly to Glasgow on business next Thursday returning the following Tuesday. Earliest EZY flight from BFS to GLA on Thursday is 1400 and the latest return on Tuesday is 1635. Not exactly business friendly and means my companies money will go to Flybe who offer a 0640 from BHD and returns from GLA at 1905 and 2030(ish)

I thought this may be a one off/earlier flights sold out but it seems to be the norm on Thursday/Friday?

[DC9_10]

My point exactly lads.

[AerRyan]

Ryanair are different to Flybe though, realistically looking at Flybes business model they won't kick EZY off any route.

[DC9_10]

Flybe don't have the funds to kick anyone of a route as they could not sustain a price war, however they are consistent on their establish routes. They try there best to provide a year round (ahem) reliable service. Credit where credit is due and never would I thought I'd defend them. I must be mellowing with age,however whatever points if view we hold, it's good to have constructive debate on the forum for a change and arguments with spotters who have never worked in the industry but think they are armchair experts.

[EGAC is Better]

Ryanair are different to Flybe though, realistically looking at Flybes business model they won't kick EZY off any route.

Ryanair might if they see a gap in the market go for it as a result of EZY reducing capacity!

[AerRyan]

Maybe, maybe not.

What can be stated as fact is that Ryanair seem to have no interest in the domestic market as of yet, LGW is only a slot keeper.

[DC9_10]

EGAC, this is what I'm trying to get at. Weak scheduling by EZY could turn out to be an FR advantage. They could swoop in on routess like BHX and GLA providing a better schedule, and have the deep pockets to take on both EZY And BE. BE are not in a position to compete with FR who would flood the marker with £9'99 fares all in. Then,where would it stop. I think EZY will put up the fight,however due to the operational hours that are required especially for summer routes and aircraft utilisation,BHD, as leverage,is out of the question for both.

[DC9_10]

AerRyan, LGW is not a slot keeper for FR. The route is already turning substantial profit.

[EGAC is Better]

EGAC, this is what I'm trying to get at. Weak scheduling by EZY could turn out to be an FR advantage. They could swoop in on routess like BHX and GLA providing a better schedule, and have the deep pockets to take on both EZY And BE. BE are not in a position to compete with FR who would flood the marker with £9'99 fares all in. Then,where would it stop. I think EZY will put up the fight,however due to the operational hours that are required especially for summer routes and aircraft utilisation,BHD, as leverage,is out of the question for both.

👍 my thought's too dc9. RYR rarely need a second opportunity to stick it to their competitors. It could be a mistake on EZY's part to let RYR establish even a small hold on their bread and butter at BFS.

Believe him or not, when announcing the closure of STN from LDY, MOL effectively said that LPL and GLA will follow STN to the bin. He qualified it with a statement along the lines of, 'I have a base at BFS, it makes no sense to not operate these flights to there.'

I take it with a pinch of salt but if that was a genuine statement, the evidence would point to RYR being interested in the domestic market.

[Husky One]

dC9 - as are Easyjet who are happy to be outperforming the Ryan's on it (whatever that really means)
BHX schedule hasn't been loaded in its entirety yet but crew have been told to expect the same as last summer.

[True Blue]

I have to agree with comments that EZY schedules at times seem designed to destroy a route. The times on Lgw used to be rubbish at times, they have improved since Fr arrived. But times to Bhx, Gla, etc leave a lot to be desired at times.

I see from the Dec Caa stats that Ezy had good results on Bhx and Man in December 16.

[DC9_10]

Husky, I imagine yes that both FR and EZY are both happy enough with performance on the LGW route. After all, it's now the largest route from Northern Ireland. However, lacklustre schedules from EZY on other UK routes might just give FR the nudge they are waiting for. The fiasco with the late launch of BHX route and no early flights except Mondays yet could be the incentive.

[EI-BUD]

AerRyan, LGW is not a slot keeper for FR. The route is already turning substantial profit

DC9_10,

Few people will know the precise revenue on any Ryanair route or the yield for that matter, and those that actually do will not be stating any such facts on a public forum like on this one. What is known is that a very significant level of passengers are carried between the 2 carriers on the route, which would point to very high load factors. Respectfully, I doubt you can actuality make such a statement on here and stand over it.

EI-BUD

[Husky One]

Easy usually produce a summer schedule which is a slave to the bucket and spade. This year is slightly different as the BCN and PMI routes are operated by out of base crews.
The BHX has an early departure every weekday and 3 returns on mon/thurs/fri. Looks like business as usual to me.

[DC9_10]

EI BUD At a recent FR presentation, we were informed canaries and gatwick are the first routes to show profit. That was from the Crewlink people.

[EI-BUD]

DC9_10,
Your comments are noted. I Wouldn't expect Crewlink to say anything different. It is unlikely they'll get anything too specific, other than generic messages... As for Canary Island routes, wouldn't be a surprise if they were successful..EI-BUD

[Refuellerman]

I see first exy to lgw in mornings now a319, a320 now does stn? Has ezy threw in the towel on lgw i wonder

[El Bunto]

Putting an A319 onto a competitive route seems an odd way to try to survive, 5% cheaper to run for 20% fewer seats. So they actually need to *increase* yield to compete.

[Jamie2k9]

Putting an A319 onto a competitive route seems an odd way to try to survive, 5% cheaper to run for 20% fewer seats. So they actually need to *increase* yield to compete.

It makes sense to do it, not just about yield but prehaps they are not filling the 20% extra seats and/or demand/yield to STN is better at the minute.

[mart901]

I flew over to STN on A320 on an evening flight recently, brand new one and what an improvement it is. I don't think for one minute a change of a/c means they are throwing in the towel. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[owenc]

STN also has an A320 at 9pm.

[Refuellerman]

First flight when fr are filling a b737-8 189 pax compared to maybe 100 ish on the ezys?

[GAZMO]

USA article suggesting Norwegian could be starting in July with starting price $69 one way!!
Norwegian Air to start $69 Irish flights in July, will likely include Belfast | IrishCentral.com (http://www.irishcentral.com/homepage/norwegian-air-to-start-69-irish-flights-in-july-will-likely-include-belfast)

[owenc]

What is the likely configuration? Surely a 737 Max couldn't reach New York year round with a full load of 180?

[Refuellerman]

What is the likely configuration? Surely a 737 Max couldn't reach New York year round with a full load of 180?

Maybe a 150 pax limitation or something, when the sunwing goes back to Montreal in autumn the a/c is fuelled to max capacity

[owenc]

Maybe a 150 pax limitation or something, when the sunwing goes back to Montreal in autumn the a/c is fuelled to max capacity
Nice to know.. Although with the fuel in mind, this will (if going to go ahead) will be a 737 max so fuel capacity/range may be different?

[Refuellerman]

Nice to know.. Although with the fuel in mind, this will (if going to go ahead) will be a 737 max so fuel capacity/range may be different?

Yes possibly so, a320 old and new maybe 2 tonne less of a trip burn so you never know?😋

[CCR]

Article in today`s Irish Examiner states that Norwegian is planning to fly to 4 Irish airports from the USA to Cork, Dublin, Shannon and Belfast.

Low-fare Ireland-US flights to be announced within weeks | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/low-fare-ireland-us-flights-to-be-announced-within-weeks-441631.html)

[AerRyan]

I'll believe it when I see it.

The headlines are evolving so much they'll soon be having Transatlantic flights from Kerry and Derry!

[DC9_10]

Now also being reported by Northern Ireland Travel News. NYC and BOS from BFS. If the Norwegian/Ryanair deal is likely to come to fruition, would it be a possibility the two could feed each other at BFS. Could be a possibility especially if FR add a few other UK city's to the network along with the early Bergamo Wroclaw Berlin rotations.

[Refuellerman]

Looks like the handlers have got plans in too, they seem to think it will be a base a/c for each route??🙄

[AerRyan]

Aircraft based in the US?

[Refuellerman]

Aircraft based in the US?

Bfs is wat i heard but its only talk atm

[Jamie2k9]

Commercially it doesn't stack up to base in Belfast, would be very surprised if it was.

[owenc]

Just hope they offer wifi and at least a slightly comfier product..

[AerRyan]

Especially with the plans I've seen Jamie2K10, several cities at 3/4pw, having a based aircraft per route in Belfast one of the most marginal markets, maybe only bested by Cork, just doesn't add up.

[A320.b744]

A couple of articles mention that Norwegian will open four transatlantic bases; two in Europe (EDI and RIX) and two in the US (PVD and SWF). The logistics of a Belfast base wouldn't make any sense. Basing the aircraft in the US would allow them to fly to BFS, ORK, SNN and would give them room to expand to other European markets. Their transatlantic Belfast operation probably won't expand beyond two destinations, so why would they base the aircraft on this side of the Atlantic if their operation is much bigger on the other side.

Norwegian set to open up to four 737MAX bases for 2017 transatlantic growth :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/270227/norwegian-set-to-open-up-to-four-737max-bases-for-2017-transatlantic-growth/)

[owenc]

There is reasonable demand for a Transatlantic flight from Riga? Really?

I was thinking basing one aircraft in Belfast could work if the aircraft is alternated between Boston and New York? I can't imagine there is enough demand to full a daily flight to Boston and New York year round.

Although, maybe lower fares from Norwegian might induce more passengers up from Dublin?

[A320.b744]

Riga actually already has year-round B763 flights to JFK operated by Uzbekistan Airways, and the Baltic states are showing strong growth in passenger traffic, so I'm not surprised that Norwegian are looking at the airport.


I will explain to you why basing a single aircraft at Belfast does not make any economic sense.

Let's say Norwegian open a base at Belfast. There are fixed costs associated with operating a base - office leases, admin staff etc.

There are also variable costs associated with operating a base. These are costs associated with how many aircraft are based at Belfast. Let's say Norwegian bases one aircraft, operating one daily transatlantic roundtrip. They need to hire pilots, cabin crew, maintenance staff, ground handling staff, check in staff etc. The cost of basing one aircraft at Belfast is equal to the fixed costs plus the variable costs (fuel, wages, airport fees) i.e. TC(1)=FC(1)+VC(1)

Now let's say Norwegian bases a second aircraft. The fixed costs stay the same, but the variable costs increase. However, fewer extra staff need to be hired, as ground staff can handle two daily round trips. Now, the cost of basing two aircraft is, as before, equal to the fixed costs plus the variable costs. However, the costs per aircraft are equal to 0.5(FC(2)+VC(2))<(FC(1)+VC(1)), meaning the cost per aircraft has decreased. All of the costs are split between the two aircraft. As more aircraft are added, the average cost continues to fall, meaning each aircraft's net profits increase.

This is called 'Economies of Scale' - producing more output (in this case basing more aircraft and adding flights to increase revenues) will reduce average costs, increasing the efficiency and net profits of the firm (in this case Norwegian).

It makes more sense for Norwegian to open a base at PVD and SWF, each with 2 or 3 aircraft, flying to BFS, ORK, SNN with the potential for expansion into more European markets. From Belfast, Norwegian will probably only fly to two destinations, meaning the base would not grow beyond one aircraft. This means that, in comparison to a 3 aircraft base at PVD, the cost of a Belfast base per aircraft would be much greater than the cost of a PVD base.

This is one of the reasons why Ryanair closed their Belfast City base back in 2010. Because they were unable to expand their network into Europe, they were unable to base more aircraft and fly to more destinations, which would have allowed them to spread the costs of the base over more aircraft and higher revenues.


I hope this makes sense, but long story short a larger base reduces average costs, therefore increasing net profits and efficiencies. SWF and PVD will serve more destinations and frequencies than BFS, so it makes a lot more economic sense to base aircraft in the US than at BFS.

[GAZMO]

Interesting article on BBC website re LHR third runway, suggesting more domestic routes, including Belfast!! Assume BFS???


"More UK airports will be served by Heathrow if proposals for a third runway are approved, the Department of Transport is due to promise.
Six airports - Belfast, Liverpool, Newquay, Humberside, Prestwick and Durham Tees Valley - could be added to Heathrow's network by 2030"


Full article


Heathrow's third runway will mean 'more domestic airport links' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38837704)

[canberra97]

Prestwick, I can't ever see that ever happening, by the time R3 is built Prestwick will probably have closed plus I would take that all with a very large pinch of salt.

[True Blue]

Just more lies and spin to make the whole project look more appealing. By the time 2030 comes around, all this will have been forgotten. Who knows what will be needed by 2030 anyway. In the Brexit vote, they couldn't get their projections correct for six months ahead, yet they try to convince us that they know what will happen 13 years from now. Complete lies.

[mart901]

I appreciate it's only really old news been spun around but Norwegian story is in the beltel today, both the paper and online versions.

[Skipness One Echo]

Just more lies and spin to make the whole project look more appealing. By the time 2030 comes around, all this will have been forgotten. Who knows what will be needed by 2030 anyway. In the Brexit vote, they couldn't get their projections correct for six months ahead, yet they try to convince us that they know what will happen 13 years from now. Complete lies.
You make a fair point about selective use of stats.
You say "They". Who are "they"? If you mean people using stats, we assume you have a brain in your head to see the context, makes it harder to mislead. If LHR gets a third runway of course BFS should be re-connected to the UK's main hub, it gives another good option for inbound investement and connecting NI to the wider world. You can't run a business without modelling future behaviour, that's silly to even try. Now CAX and PIK? Unlikely but a proper entrepreneur could make it work, unlikely not impossible.

I heard once about some Greek bloke starting B737s from GLA to, wait for it, Luton Airport #rofl. Geeez, get this, he wasn't even using his own AOC, he piggybacked on GB Airways, a real airline. I knew GB would outlast this new outift......

[BFS BHD]

Anyone know what airline is doing the charter flight to Burgas Airport for Travel Solutions this summer?

[Refuellerman]

Anyone know what airline is doing the charter flight to Burgas Airport for Travel Solutions this summer?
I would say it will be bh air again but unsure if the a330 this year

[BFS BHD]

Different charter company. Bulgaria Air E-190s done the flights last year.

[SecondDog]

Different charter company. Bulgaria Air E-190s done the flights last year.

Was quite often done by a 330 this past season

[GAZMO]

Going by reliable Wikipedia small planet airlines are flying to Burgas for travel solutions !!!

[BFS BHD]

That was BH Air that operated the A330. Bulgaria Air is a different airline that used E190s.

[SecondDog]

That was BH Air that operated the A330. Bulgaria Air is a different airline that used E190s.

With you now

[BFS BHD]

I see Ryanair is down to 4 flights on a Saturday and Sunday to Gatwick.

[GAZMO]

Passenger numbers up 34% in January. Good start to the year :D


https://www.belfastairport.com/blog-news/2017/february/airport-chalks-up-best-ever-january-passenger-figures

[A320.b744]

Good start to the year yes, but don't be expecting such large increases in passenger numbers all year - take into account that this is the first January that Ryanair's Gatwick route has operated, which'll take up 40,000-50,000 of the 95,000 pax increase.

[Refuellerman]

Good start to the year yes, but don't be expecting such large increases in passenger numbers all year - take into account that this is the first January that Ryanair's Gatwick route has operated, which'll take up 40,000-50,000 of the 95,000 pax increase.someones been in class today then lol

[BFS BHD]

Will we be seeing any new routes for Ryanair in W17/18?

[GAZMO]

Maybe the third aircraft 😄😄😄

[mart901]

LGW back to 5x daily for winter

[scodaman]

Bought the Belfast Telegraph on Friday evening and a Ryanair booklet was inside it.

Great quality booklet, advertising flights from.....Dublin.

Welcome to the world of Ryanair folks, making you feel special and making you feel that you're the only one while groping the a*se of the bird across the street.

[AerRyan]

No room for romance in the world of business.

[OneBellEnd]

Yes saw it too Scodaman. All paid for and placed by Dublin Airport in the clamour to keep business flowing south to them.

Ryanair and other airlines are simply taking the airport cash being thrown at them.

Don't think any of the routes FR fly from BFS were promoted - all Ibiza, Malta, Madrid, Hamburg from what I saw.

I have no doubt Ryanair have no sentiment. Why would they? They're a very focussed business. And I'm also sure that if the air tax was equal in Belfast to what it is in Dublin Ryanair would see great sense in doubling up from BFS on many more of the destinations they fly from Dublin.

[True Blue]

Leaving aside the departure tax, what could airports here do to reduce the number of pax going to Dublin? The school that one of my daughter's goes to has two large groups away at the minute, both out of Dublin. I sometimes wonder if the agents used are quite happy to push Dublin. Is there anything they can do?

[AerRyan]

Advertising, thats about it. Belfast will never have the route offering that Dublin has. Inform people and make sure everyone knows that routes BFS actually has.

[owenc]

Tbh, I think a lot of people just assume that Belfast doesn't have the routes.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Leaving aside the departure tax, what could airports here do to reduce the number of pax going to Dublin? The school that one of my daughter's goes to has two large groups away at the minute, both out of Dublin. I sometimes wonder if the agents used are quite happy to push Dublin. Is there anything they can do?

Access by road and public transport, coming from West isn't helped by Loch Neagh and given the little difference in times to both airports DUB will win.

[840]

I do wonder about some of the relationships between travel agents and airlines.

We had an experience a couple of years ago where we wanted to go from Cork to Cape Town. We also wanted to organize a few tours when out there, so we went to a travel agent.

The same travel agent was absolutely hell-bent on sending us on Emirates from Dublin. The fare from Cork to Heathrow and onto Cape Town on BA was €25 higher. Quite frankly, we'd have lost that on the cost of the bus to Dublin, before you take into account the 3 hours you spend on the bus and the fact it's 2 long-haul flights via Dubai as opposed to 1 via London.

Eventually, they lost the business and we DIYed every part of it.

I can only assume that Emirates offered them a chunky commission.

[TSR2]

I can only assume that Emirates offered them a chunky commission.

Or the travel agent could not be arsed investigating alternatives.

[EI-A330-300]

When EK first started DUB they were very kind to travel agents, i'm sure it was introductory but suspect EK/EY offer good deals to them to get passengers.

[West Brit]

EZY now have a BHX flight on all Saturdays

[josechung]

Always amazes me how we can't go more than a couple weeks without some starting the BFS vs DUB crap.

It's old news and no one cares.

[SecondDog]

Always amazes me how we can't go more than a couple weeks without some starting the BFS vs DUB crap.

It's old news and no one cares.

😉 shouldn't really surprise you by now though

[mart901]

Well at least the debate has matured... It used to be BHD vs BFS..... :D

[SecondDog]

Well at least the debate has matured... It used to be BHD vs BFS..... :D

Sure we could go a bit on that yet.....

[OltonPete]

West Brit

Don't forget the extra Tuesday service until 13 June making it three daily except Saturday.

So from not bookable a month or so ago to an increase compared to summer 16 from late March to mid-June. They have never operated 3 frequencies on a Tuesday before to BHX.

Pete

[Bfs bloke]

Bought the Belfast Telegraph on Friday evening and a Ryanair booklet was inside it.

Great quality booklet, advertising flights from.....Dublin.

Welcome to the world of Ryanair folks, making you feel special and making you feel that you're the only one while groping the a*se of the bird across the street.

The same booklet was also in this months edition of NI Travel News that I picked up from Aldergrove. (a contradiction in terms)

[True Blue]

Quote - "Always amazes me how we can't go more than a couple weeks without some starting the BFS vs DUB crap.

It's old news and no one cares."

So you are quite happy to see employment opportunities, spending power, possible new routes, local airport development etc all drive south to Dublin? What would be the impact if we could claw back say 400k of that almost 1m who drive south? No interest in the local economy?

[AerRyan]

And you won't stop the vast majority of these people from driving south because Dublin will always have a far larger amount of routes and seats available.

[BFS BHD]

Anyone know if Ryanair has a announcement planned yet for BFS to launch W17/18?

[El Bunto]

Interesting to see that Airbus sent an A321 through Belfast yesterday on delivery from Toulouse to the USA. Another win for Global Trek, well done!

[West Brit]

And you won't stop the vast majority of these people from driving south because Dublin will always have a far larger amount of routes and seats available

The £ v euro, Brexit and new future routes from BFS could cull the numbers significantly.
You seem to have an illusion that people drive to DUB just for the hell of it!!

[j636]

The £ v euro, Brexit and new future routes from BFS could cull the numbers significantly.
You seem to have an illusion that people drive to DUB just for the hell of it!!

Can I assume when you have Brexit and cull numbers traveling to DUB in one line you are referring to the fact that people in NI will be worse off economically hence the drop off. You are not that naive to think Brexit will deliver lots of new routes from BFS, Current £ value is bad for Ryanair and if it gets worse well who knows...

[True Blue]

The £ vs Euro exchange has been at these levels before over the past 10 years. Why no talk then of routes being pulled? Isn't it great to have Brexit to blame lots of issues on, but lets not deal with the issues.

[j636]

The £ vs Euro exchange has been at these levels before over the past 10 years. Why no talk then of routes being pulled? Isn't it great to have Brexit to blame lots of issues on, but lets not deal with the issues.


Not disputing this however longer term only routes delivering a good return survive. It is inevitable that people's disposable income will be squeezed over next few years and combine this with rising fuel and currency situation...

PS - I support Brexit in principal but I am fully aware of the reality over the next few years which I don't most who supported it are.

[West Brit]

Oh obviously people from the west will always use Dublin as someone has posted the big 'Lough Neagh' issue (it's only got 2 motorways one at the top and one at the bottom). But sure if I live in Cookstown or Coalisland Dublin is a lot handier. I mean really are you guys for real!

[West Brit]

Not disputing this however longer term only routes delivering a good return survive.

And the majority of these routes are to mainland GB so BFS will be fine. I would say that any airport in Ireland that would need to worry about Brexit would have to be DUB.

[owenc]

Dublin airport is only convenient for the extreme southern half of Northern Ireland, so Fermanagh, South Armagh, South Down.

It's a 320 mile round trip journey from my home in the North/North West of Northern Ireland, so I personally only fly out of DUB if it's absolutely essential e.g. San Francisco/Los Angeles/Dubai.

[Copenhagen]

Says the person who flew from DUB to NYC over using BFS.

[owenc]

I flee United to Newark from Belfast in June?

[Copenhagen]

I flee United to Newark from Belfast in June?

Selective memory Owen. You have flown to the US from Dublin rather than use BFS.

[SecondDog]

I feel we are moving into personal territory again here. When will Norwegian be announced, anyone heard anything interesting about BFS?

Also interesting to note that last time the pound was near equal with the euro, BFS did pick up a lot of traffic from the south. Swings and roundabouts.....

[BFS BHD]

Work officially started on the new Petrol Filling Station at Belfast International Airport this week.

Will include retail unit, coffee kiosk, hot food counter and drive thru restaurant.

Moorefield Contracts Ltd · Projects - Filling Station (http://www.moorefieldcontracts.com/axol.html)

https://twitter.com/MoorefieldCo/status/833829115920781312

[Refuellerman]

Was out and about over the weekend and i noticed a considerable activity on the rail line, any 1 know wats up crumlin bridge also wrapped up undergoing work?😞

[Startledgrapefruit]

Train line is mothballed but used for training and other things
Its just planned maintenance / repair work
Nothing to get excited about.

[Refuellerman]

Train line is mothballed but used for training and other things
Its just planned maintenance / repair work
Nothing to get excited about.dam was hoping to get the train to work lol

[shoe shine]

announcement tomorrow

[GAZMO]

Announcement regarding??

[buzz_hornet]

Announcement regarding??
new service to new york

[BHX5DME]

DUB, SNN & ORK all expecting NAX long haul tomorrow too

[mart901]

Julian O'Neil has tweeted out announcement due tomorrow for BFS.

[SecondDog]

Julian O'Neil has tweeted out announcement due tomorrow for BFS.

Lets hope he isn't a scud. Hate gun jumpers.

Lets hope for the July start.

[INKJET]

Flights from BFS to the USA on sale from 6am today, also Shannon, Dublin, Cork & Edinburgh

[AerRyan]

Do you mean 6pm?

[GAZMO]

From BBC website New York and Boston

Norwegian Air to operate new flights from Belfast to US - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39058236)

[True Blue]

What is the Freebird A320 doing at Bfs this morning?

[El Bunto]

What is the Freebird A320 doing at Bfs this morning? Unlisted arrival from Istanbul, rumoured to be a refugee flight. There was another back in November that also wasn't announced.

[BFS BHD]

https://www.belfastairport.com/blog-news/2017/february/norwegian-decision-will-deliver-greater-connectivity-to-the-usa

[owenc]

Three flights a week in peak summer could be improved upon.

Not fussed on going to an airport 70 miles from Manhattan.. But I do think I would give PVD a go since its connected to a railway line.

[A320.b744]

Newsdesk - Norwegian (http://media.norwegian.com/uk/#/pressreleases/norwegian-unveils-69-pounds-flights-to-the-usa-from-5-uk-and-irish-cities-1823267)

Flights to Stewart on Tues, Thurs, Sat; depart BFS 16:20, arrive SWF 19:05
Flights to Providence on Tues, Sat; depart BFS 15:45, arrive PVD 18:20

Doesn't give any details yet on eastbound schedule, but they're not exactly convenient for NI passengers who want to go to NYC or BOS.

[flying officer kite]

PVD would be lovely to visit.


70 miles isn't great, but then none of the New York airports have great public transport to Manhattan. The key is the price, keep it low and that is all people will see, even if it does mean a coach ride into the city. Ryanair is proof of this.

[owenc]

Newsdesk - Norwegian (http://media.norwegian.com/uk/#/pressreleases/norwegian-unveils-69-pounds-flights-to-the-usa-from-5-uk-and-irish-cities-1823267)

Flights to Stewart on Tues, Thurs, Sat; depart BFS 16:20, arrive SWF 19:05
Flights to Providence on Tues, Sat; depart BFS 15:45, arrive PVD 18:45

Doesn't give any details yet on eastbound schedule, but they're not exactly convenient for NI passengers who want to go to NYC or BOS.
8 hours to providence! I would think it's more likely to be 6 hours.

Passengers will probably arrive around 5pm instead.

[GAZMO]

I would tend to agree with a greater frequency to NY. Maybe it will increase in the future??
However with a lack of connections from Stewart International Airport maybe three flights per week is sufficient? Only possible feasible connections I can see is Philadelphia with AA and MCO and FFL with JetBlue


PS just checked arrival times into Stewart International and not really ideal for connecting

[ATNotts]

I would tend to agree with a greater frequency to NY. Maybe it will increase in the future??
However with a lack of connections from Stewart International Airport maybe three flights per week is sufficient? Only possible feasible connections I can see is Philadelphia with AA and MCO and FFL with JetBlue


PS just checked arrival times into Stewart International and not really ideal for connecting
The services are there for leisure passengers, so I don't see frequency as a problem. I suggest however that prospective passengers take a quick geography lesson before buying flights to "New York" and "Boston".

[A320.b744]

Flights on sale now.

BFS-SWF 16:20-19:05 Tues, Thurs, Sat
SWF-BFS 21:50-09:45+1 Mon, Wed, Fri

BFS-PVD 15:45-18:20 Tues, Sat
PVD-BFS 21:30-09:20+1 Mon, Fri

[840]

Providence isn't going to be a disaster for Boston. There are direct trains in that take an hour to get to South Station. It's not much worse than Stansted. Stewart is a different issue altogether. It's going to take 2+ hours to get into Manhattan.

[owenc]

Yes, Providence seems reasonable.

Well provided the train is frequent.

[840]

On paper it looks fine, with 3 trains in the 2 hours after landing. The only fear is that the last train is at 9:07pm, so if there was a combination of a delayed flight and bad queues at US immigration, that could be a problem. That said, you would hope the airport would be with the local transit company on this. Trains run later to Providence itself and the airport is only one further stop down the line.

[buzz_hornet]

On paper it looks fine, with 3 trains in the 2 hours after landing. The only fear is that the last train is at 9:07pm, so if there was a combination of a delayed flight and bad queues at US immigration, that could be a problem. That said, you would hope the airport would be with the local transit company on this. Trains run later to Providence itself and the airport is only one further stop down the line.
i'd imagine the train timetable may be changed now

[Speedbrakes Up]

8hrs to Stuart is highly probable owenc!
Your flying a 737 across the Atlantic at .78-.79 not a 787 or 777 crossing at .84-.86.
Strong westerly Atlantic winds, yeah 8hrs is pretty feasible.

[owenc]

The 8 hours was to Providence which is 200 miles closer, I believe.

[A320.b744]

NY Governor Cuomo has announced that Stewart Airport will have a substantially increased bus service to NYPA Bus Terminal in Midtown Manhattan, with fares from $18 each way. It looks like Port Authority are going to invest a lot into making these flights work.

[mart901]

Really so pleased. 2 destinations. Wow. I bet the airport are now glad United pulled.

[GAZMO]

Although very pleased to see a replacement service within six weeks, and fares are going to be very keen, not all of us travel to the NY area, some including myself a little further so it would have been nice to have that opportunity to connect, even if it involves re checking in baggage
However the timings are not suitable at all for and connections

However shouldn't grumble, two "new" destinations great🤗🤗🤗

[Husky One]

Hardly Mart901. BFS lost a legacy, multi-class, full service, daily year round operation that connected worldwide via EWR and have replaced it with a 'low cost' service to Stewart and summer offering to Providence. No interlining so any onward connections cost $$$. The journey into NYC is longer than Belfast to Dublin.
It's not a bad effort at clawing back some ground but hardly a replacement for what we had..unless you travel without bags, love low cost 737s and have relatives in Stewart

[mart901]

The coach from Stewart is 95 mins. From Belfast to Dublin is 2hrs at best, from my house by car add another 30 mins. BFS is on my doorstep. Yes connections aren't there but we've lost one and gained two.

[CabinCrewe]

wonder if this would put off a so-called 'legacy' returning? For those with existing legacy carriers, what effect will creaming off all the economy pax do?!

[mart901]

I'd doubt another carrier will. I'd say there's room for 1, imao. However if demand is there then there's a case for another. I daresay the summer capacity will be insufficient for demand for NY, given UA's capacity and loads.

[owenc]

Stewart is closer to Manhattan over NI to DUB.

I have looked at the airports ground transportation and there is a train service to grand central via a place called "Beacon" this train takes around an hour.

Rest of NI to Dublin airport is around 2-3 hours.

We're not all an hour away.

[INKJET]

Husky One you may not have flown with Norwegian on their 738's, but they are in a different league to FR or for that matter easyJet in terms of legroom and on board service, there is no sell sell sell mantra and when the wifi is installed it amazing how the time goes by, the already do 7 hours routes from LPA to the likes of Northern Norway and Helsinki and Stockholm to Dubai, this is a new era and I have no idea if it will work, but few would bet against norwegian not making it work, the price will be the key, but i agree it wont replace a legacy carrier operating to a main airport, if Belfast goes well who knows Norwegian might grow the route into a daily dream liner service...to JFK a route that would pull traffic from South of the border if the price is right, one thing is for sure passengers getting of a Norwegian max onto a FR interior colour scheme that makes your eyes bleed will be in for a shock

[Husky One]

Lost one gained two? Might look good on paper in a literal sense. In terms of real annual movements, pax etc that would only wash in BIA's boardroom. Belfast to Dublin Airport is 1hr 45 on a bad day by bus. Unfortunately that's where I can get connections to pretty much anywhere I need to be. This is a niche offering that caters to a limited market. United wasn't. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[owenc]

We are not all located in Belfast or County Down!!!!!

[mart901]

Exactly INKJET. Now FR are nowhere near as bad as they were but I flew to LGW last week both ways and I still feel the need for sunglasses ��. Friends of mine have done San Francisco with Norwegian and said the service and comfort was wonderful better than EI, they been to Chicago via Dub in Dec with EI and on the outbound told me the crew were terrible, gossiping the whole way and virtually ignoring pax, this after I'd recommend them!

[Husky One]

Owen- So you'd rather get to BFS, fly to Stewart, probably night stop, then get one/maybe two connecting flights to get to other US destinations than get a bus to Dublin and have it all taken care of from that point.

[owenc]

Exactly INKJET. Now FR are nowhere near as bad as they were but I flew to LGW last week both ways and I still feel the need for sunglasses ��. Friends of mine have done San Francisco with Norwegian and said the service and comfort was wonderful better than EI, they been to Chicago via Dub in Dec with EI and on the outbound told me the crew were terrible, gossiping the whole way and virtually ignoring pax, this after I'd recommend them!
Well this is a 737 with 189 seats so it will be in the short haul European configuration, this is vastly different to their long haul product.

[mart901]

In a brand new aircraft with the new Boeing interior and I'm not sure it will be 189, probably less.

[EGAC is Better]

In a brand new aircraft with the new Boeing interior and I'm not sure it will be 189, probably less.

Has anyone tried a dummy booking to see what the seat map is like?

https://leehamnews.com/2016/09/14/maxs-first-mission-cross-atlantic/

This article written in September 2016 suggests a realistic load is 168 when replicating the premium/econ seat % on the 787-8. Take it with a pinch of salt if you wish but it makes sense when you read the numbers.

This off course assumes the MAX will be ETOPS certified by June. If it isn't these routes may have to start on 737-800's with blocked seats.

[Husky One]

The cheap fares didn't last long. Dearer than EI to JFK on almost all comparable dates in July :rolleyes:

[owenc]

The ball park figure of 189 came from the seat map. Although perhaps that is their standard map that they are using for interim?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Look like the Boston route is seasonal, (DUB/ORK/SNN/EDI) all routes released for winter 17/18.

[EGAC is Better]

The ball park figure of 189 came from the seat map. Although perhaps that is their standard map that they are using for interim?

I'm surprised they aren't testing the market for premium econ, even if only a small number of seats. If the first batch of MAX's are going trans-atlantic from EDI, ORK, SNN, DUB and BFS there is bound to be enough demand for them. The standard 737-800 isn't going to cut it so a small sub-fleet with a different configuration shouldn't add a huge overhead.

I must admit this is a ballsy move. Sticking a new engine straight into service over the pond with a very small sub-fleet of aircraft that can fullfil the service requirements. Hopefully it doesn't go as badly as the 787 introduction to service with delays and wet leases being a regular occurrance.

[owenc]

I concur. I was expecting something in and around 160-170 seats, 189 seems risky.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

It's 186 seats....

[El Bunto]

MAX 8, or 800 MAX, 8 MAX or whatever it is now, will have 180 min ETOPS capability at certification currently scheduled before the end of March. Norwegian [Air International] already has ETOPS 180 approval for a subfleet of EI-reg 737-800s so the paperwork should read across to the MAX

[AerRyan]

These routes are poor replacements for EWR, that's for sure. No connections, far from where most people actually want to go, small aircraft which will probably cause issues in winter, all on a service just as expensive as UA/EI most of the time (all cheap fares gone now).

It's something alright, but god it's nothing compared to a proper service on a full service airline.

I wish the route well though, if PVD can last in Cork I doubt it'll have any issue lasting in BFS

[Startledgrapefruit]

8 Hours from Belfast to the USofA and only 2 toilets..............................

[owenc]

Great Circle Mapper (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=BFS-PVD&MS=wls&DU=mi&SG=397&SU=kts&E=180&EV=397&EU=kts)

Can't see 3,000 mile flight EVER taking 8 hours.

[inOban]

Depends on where the Jetstream is.....

[owenc]

Depends on where the Jetstream is.....

So 350mph average speed, the whole way across the Atlantic?

[Una Due Tfc]

It's rare for the Jet stream to top 250 kts, and even then only in the winter.

When it does blow strongly, westbound flights route further North over Iceland/Greenland etc, adding distance, time and fuel burn

[Speedbrakes Up]

8hrs is block to block not flight time...!!!
So you will properly have a flight time in the region of 07:15-07:30.
Maybe Norwegian are being generous with the block time as it is a new route!!!!
Rather over estimate then under to start of with I guess!
Let's just sit back and see how it works out, me personally I am sceptical I think Norwegian are basing their predictions on the facts and figures from Boeing not the reality.
And by reality I mean taking off from BFS very heavy, entering oceanic airspace very soon after takeoff, not able to achieve high levels on the track systems, held lower down, burn more fuel.....
Plus if you can get higher the Max won't be able to cruise at the same speeds as the B777, B787, A330 etc... crossing the Atlantic, so unfortunately maybe held down at lower flight levels due to its speed.
If they take a random track they normally have to fly further north to avoid the track system so again using more fuel....
As I said interesting to see how it all works out.

[inOban]

Is North Atlantic airspace busy in the late afternoon/evening?

[El Bunto]

Is North Atlantic airspace busy in the late afternoon/evening? Not particularly, the 16:20 departure will be joining the tail of the last big westbound wave of the day.

[inOban]

That's what was thinking, so Speedbrakes Up's concerns about track availability may not be a big deal. Eastbound is another matter.

[BHD2BFS]

I still fail to see how Cork will have a year round flight to Boston yet Belfast won't? 🤔

For BFS being the 2nd biggest airport in Ireland how does Cork and Shannon have a greater appeal?

Maybe we could eventually see a Dubai flight on the cards with the aircraft coming in from the states and then heading off to Dubai after a crew change and a quick clean?

[AerRyan]

Cork was the bait used to get the licence, Shannon has a large market for these routes.

There is also a great connection between those parts of Ireland and New England. Inbound tourism is also much stronger.

[Refuellerman]

I still fail to see how Cork will have a year round flight to Boston yet Belfast won't? 🤔

For BFS being the 2nd biggest airport in Ireland how does Cork and Shannon have a greater appeal?

Maybe we could eventually see a Dubai flight on the cards with the aircraft coming in from the states and then heading off to Dubai after a crew change and a quick clean?

Correction, Belfast International is the biggest airport in Northern Ireland and the second biggest on the island of Ireland keep up the geography lessons boys

[AerRyan]

Correction, Belfast International is the biggest airport in Northern Ireland and the second biggest on the island of Ireland keep up the geography lessons boys

I didn't see them state that it was the second biggest in the Republic of Ireland, just Ireland, which was completely correct.

[EI-BUD]

The likely reason that Cork is getting year round service is due to some industry that is located near boston and who have business in Cork area, e.g. pharma.

Belfast on the other hand is seasonal. Very seasonal. Airlines do extremely well in June/July/August but winter is tough particularly on routes other than traditional routes to GB and London in particular. The lack of inbound tourism didn't help either.

Getting a TA route into Cork is a major coup for the airport. This comes on top of wow, who have lots of opportunity as they feed multiple points in north america via KEF.

Shannon has a long history of TA flying and a very strong level of inbound tourism from the US....

[mart901]

Exactly Refuellerman, we are a country not a county as the Scotsman said to me time of their independence referendum...

[AerRyan]

Borders make no difference to the airline, it's all about profits.

[owenc]

No one mentioned the border.

[AerRyan]

The country not county remark is another way of referencing a border.

[mart901]

No its not AerRyan. It's by way of reinforcing the country, as in Northern Ireland. Nothing more, nothing less.

[AerRyan]

There's no point in making it here other than in relation to Aviation, and I've no doubt you meant it in that sense.

[DC9_10]

We're of to Boston and Cape Cod 5th To 15th September. £750.00 rtn 2 reserved seats, inflight meals and bags. Bargain. Our friends who booked today paid £877.00.

[mart901]

AerRyan

That's grand. Call it what suits I should be more gracious.

Anyways on the subject of Norwegian I believe they sold out all the £65 seats in 6 hours yesterday. I'm not sure what the BFS bookings were like exactly but all the promo seats are gone according to Norwegian, the booking for DUB/ORK/SNN were over 5000 in those six hours.

[AerRyan]

If bookings go well up to October, I can see Norwegian extending it through winter.

[DC9_10]

Mart, yesterday afternoon we could have got our seats for £630.00 and in the space of an hour they went up to the price we paid. Mrs DC_9 used debit card so don't think there was a fee. The price our friends paid today is higher which might suggest it will be popular. Hope so and good luck to Norwegian. Can't wait to report back on the experience.

[mart901]

Looking forward to hearing. I checked in the morning was £65 o/w but November dates weren't available for the return, I tweeted them to see when winter would be on sale, they replied unsure. By 5pm when I was back in and able to book winter was on sale and a bare bones return flight was like £340 return. It's gone up slightly since. When all said and done it's cheaper via LHR and luggage/meals/drinks included. And DUB most expensive of all. Fair play to Norwegian though and I'm sure there will be sales again soon

[DC9_10]

Our fares are all in Mart. Luggage meals etc and seat choice. Think we might bring a few little beverages on board for the trip from the duty free as you only get a free drink with your meal.

[mart901]

That's great then

[DC9_10]

The only thing that surprises me are the long layover times at BFS for the aircraft's. Surely they could throw in a few European flights like Copenhagen in between, especially in the peak summer months. Just a thought.

[AerRyan]

It's the same story for SNN, ORK, DUB and EDI. I think it's a buffer in the schedule in order to prevent Norwegian having the same issues it had with the 787's in Gatwick

[BFS BHD]

Likely end up being more spain routes (BCN, ALC etc) instead of new airports like Copenhagen.