BELFAST AIRPORT INTERNATIONAL

[OneBellEnd]

J636

I believe the UK were one of the first movers to think about hammering the travel and holiday industry well back into the nineties, and long before ROI ever thought like many other European countries about applying a tax of this kind. Sure they had a tax in the south of Ireland for a short period of time but at no stage during that period was the UK/NI exempt from a tax.

Agree with much of your second point. But the simple question is - if NI is to have any hope of trying to pull its own weight economically, why then persist in punishing the small private sector, which is where virtually all of the NI aviation industry is situated, and still expect them to grow and expand to take away a little of the dependence on Treasury in London. The big irony is that it is an arguably outdated, Government supported, fat-cat organisation in Dublin which is exerting the pressure on NI air transport. A bit short-sighted all round, to say the least, surely?

[EI-BUD]

Firstly to say I am in favour of abolition of the tax and for an equal footing in terms of competing with Dublin it should be out.

However, apart from retaining United as our scheduled route hitherto (yes I know VS are coming for a few months),what tangible benefits has the acting of this tax brought? Have we seen lower fares? Have we seen significant growth in passenger numbers....?

On the face of the data, it would seem difficult based on the experience to date of the tax not being in place to argue for its non return. An economic view ..

The question is would United really withdraw ? And with a permanent abolition would we see new services ex Belfast ?

[SecondDog]

It seems for all the routes announced over the last couple of years, there is at least an equal number of nearly stories where one just couldn't get over the line in terms of support. The best example of what an alternative approach might be is Dublin, which is backed by the state and is consequently doing rather well. We need to get there soon or the Scots and Welsh will scupper any chance we have of getting connecting TA pax from the mainland.

[BFS watcher]

I hear Aldegrove growing quite nicely with APD can you imagine what they would do without it.

[SecondDog]

I hear Aldegrove growing quite nicely with APD can you imagine what they would do without it.

Exactly Watcher. All it will take is positivity from Stormont folk.... lets hope they wake up soon. No doubt DUB will be the island's main airport but there is scope for BFS to do very well too.

[GAZMO]

Have to agree guys with your comments. Small but steady growth this year with new routes from Jet2 Ezy and Wizz. Could be much more if no APD

[stab3.5up]

Why not just reduce vat on airline tickets or capital costs for the tourist sector. Get rid of APD by steth. An irish solution to an irish question to quote whoever said it. Creative accounting is probably required

[ESCNI]

AFAIK, flights are zero VAT rated.

[All names taken]

Giving the NI gov the power over APD forces some challenging choices.
Doing nothing whilst blaming Westminster for all economic woes (the basis of NI economic policy for decades) is not such an easy option.

Ultimately if you get rid of APD in NI, the lost revenue has to be found from elsewhere or funding for another service needs to be cut.

Now APD is a progressive tax as it is paid more by wealthier people - business class pays more; wealthier people have more holidays, poor people who can't afford foreign holidays don't pay it at all etc - so it is a fair tax.

That's not the same as saying that it should even exist for economic growth reasons BUT the fact that it already exists and is a valuable source of revenue makes it far from a 'no-brainer' as some on this forum would believe - it's an aviation forum after all.

The question facing Stormont amounts to:
Is it fair to get rid of APD so that wealthier people don't have to pay as much to get to their villas in Southern Spain but, at the same time, cuts to government spending due to reduced revenues mean that those in more need have to suffer?

Glad I don't have to make that call.

[ESCNI]

Wealthy people flying to their villa in Spain, pay £13 in tax. When they fly on business, the business pays, so they pay £0 in tax.

Poorer people flying to GB for a holiday, pay £26 in tax. When they fly to GB to work, they personally pay £26 in tax.

...that really doesn't sound like a progressive tax to me!

[blues-on]

What an appalling statement (in my opinion). APD is an unfair tax on everyone. It's an Island with a land border to another Island without APD. Consider this, imagine the opportunities that NI could create given a level playing field with our land neighbours. Again, in my opinion, the NI assembly would be better served protecting the infrastructure of NI. Continuing to implement APD only promotes Dublin further.

[OneBellEnd]

How about this? Just might be a little radical for the NI officials who are the guardians of the "rules"!??


Dublin Airport now takes almost a million passengers a year booking in NI/UK jurisdiction because, as much as anything, they are actively exploiting zero tax in RoI v the air tax being charged in NI.


Alongside that there are about 3.5 million passengers departing from the three NI airports (about 7 million airport passengers overall), and there is no tax on the small existing proportion of long haul travellers.


So for the sake of simplicity the APD take from NI bookings is about 3.5 million times £13 - around £45 million per annum.


So, why not simply take control of the air tax in Belfast, and tax-raising powers related to it, and charge a tax of £45 - £50 for all bookings taken in NI for passengers departing from RoI airports, and use the funds raised from this to wipe out the equivalent financial loss to the NI Executive which would be incurred while reducing APD on all passengers departing from the NI airports to zero?


Hey presto, existing and new services from the airports in NI become stronger and more sustainable, more jobs in NI, substantially more spend from tourists and visitors coming into NI and the rising tide lifts the NI economy, simply by turning the table around to a different angle.


If the current loss of business from NI to RoI was occurring the other way round, this would have been a guaranteed move long ages before now.

[speedrestriction]

It's an Island with a land border to another Island without APD.

That is a nonsensical statement. I can confirm that crossing the border to the south requires no swimming or boating. Last time I looked at a map Northern Ireland made up about 1/4 of a small island in the North Atlantic.

Reduction of APD may stimulate the demand for flights north of the border - but only slightly. The welfare and budget reforms which are coming down the tracks may have the opposite effect. NI needs to be weaned off state money. The only alternative is for the politicians to focus on making it a more competitive place to do business - attracting inward investment from overseas and fostering local businesses which have aspirations to reach a wider market. Lower APD may help but only in the wider context of economic reform which will deliver a more vibrant economy on our 1/4 of a little island in the North Atlantic.

[SecondDog]

Badly written but you knew what he meant, part of a country that exists on a different island from the central government and is consequently suffering from a tax on services that does not exist in an adjoining foreign country?

You are underestimating the need to cut APD in my opinion. But I agree about wider economic reform. Business is driven by competition so if it were scrapped it isn't just routes that would improve, it would be take up of existing services including freight etc. that will come from business startup or expansion. The revenue from the actual air tax lost would be more than replaced by business taxes and income taxes from new jobs created. It might not be simple or short term but exponentially more beneficial in terms of the whole population.

[BFS101]

New summer charter program to Bulgaria

Local tour operator Travel Solutions has this week announced a new addition to its Balkan portfolio with the launch of a 2016 summer charter programme.

Managing Director Peter McMinn said: "After such a successful first winter ski season it was a natural progression to extend the Balkan programme to launch a summer beach product. It was clear from our agents' feedback that they were expecting it."

The Balkan Sun programme will operate from late June to early September. Direct non-stop flights will operate on a Saturday afternoon using modern E-190 Embraer aircraft operated by Bulgaria Air - the country's national carrier. Guests will have a choice of hotels and apartments in the popular Sunny Beach resort.

Source, NI Travel News

[eastern wiseguy]

"So, why not simply take control of the air tax in Belfast, and tax-raising powers related to it, and charge a tax of £45 - £50 for all bookings taken in NI for passengers departing from RoI airports, and use the funds raised from this to wipe out the equivalent financial loss to the NI Executive which would be incurred "

How? Are you going to get Expedia to do that for you?

Perhaps if the crayon munchers on the Hill stopped shelling out for crap like policing for Flegs and Camp Twaddel their might be more cash available in the coffers.

That ,however,would require a grownup approach to politics......no surrender...:ugh:

(Other lunatic politically inspired money pits ARE available...the above example is just that...an example)

[j636]

What an appalling statement (in my opinion). APD is an unfair tax on everyone. It's an Island with a land border to another Island without APD. Consider this, imagine the opportunities that NI could create given a level playing field with our land neighbours. Again, in my opinion, the NI assembly would be better served protecting the infrastructure of NI. Continuing to implement APD only promotes Dublin further.

Europe is full of land borders, so what is the point. Taxes if NI/ROI are all different and some better benefit NI and ROI.

As for creating opportunities thy didn't manage many before the crash so why is it different now.

How about this? Just might be a little radical for the NI officials who are the guardians of the "rules"!??

Dublin Airport now takes almost a million passengers a year booking in NI/UK jurisdiction because, as much as anything, they are actively exploiting zero tax in RoI v the air tax being charged in NI.


And it took 6 or 700,000 before the APD was introduced as well, DUB has always and will always take passengers from NI and APD has nothing to do with it.

I don't see NI complaining with the passengers they receive from the NW.

Alongside that there are about 3.5 million passengers departing from the three NI airports (about 7 million airport passengers overall), and there is no tax on the small existing proportion of long haul travellers.


So for the sake of simplicity the APD take from NI bookings is about 3.5 million times £13 - around £45 million per annum.

2 way tax....

So, why not simply take control of the air tax in Belfast, and tax-raising powers related to it, and charge a tax of £45 - £50 for all bookings taken in NI for passengers departing from RoI airports, and use the funds raised from this to wipe out the equivalent financial loss to the NI Executive which would be incurred while reducing APD on all passengers departing from the NI airports to zero?

Because that is illegal

Hey presto, existing and new services from the airports in NI become stronger and more sustainable, more jobs in NI, substantially more spend from tourists and visitors coming into NI and the rising tide lifts the NI economy, simply by turning the table around to a different angle.


DUB carries the majority of tourists into NI and has done before the tax.

If the current loss of business from NI to RoI was occurring t*he other way round, this would have been a guaranteed move long ages before now.

Well only people form NI can change politics not people in the Republic. Tactful voting would go a long way and not voting for pro Irish or pro British parties.

It's a little like transferring Corporation Tax to compete with ROI not going to work as the ROI have the better competitive edge and the only losers will be people as cuts will be made to reduce it.

You are underestimating the need to cut APD in my opinion. But I agree about wider economic reform. Business is driven by competition so if it were scrapped it isn't just routes that would improve, it would be take up of existing services including freight etc. that will come from business startup or expansion. The revenue from the actual air tax lost would be more than replaced by business taxes and income taxes from new jobs created. It might not be simple or short term but exponentially more beneficial in terms of the whole population.

I can see all those routes to Southern Europe deliver such revenue to NI :rolleyes:

The simple fact is lower APD will not lead to lower air fares (as seen at DUB) however scrapping the tax ex DUB has delivered major benefits which include increased inbound passengers who I am sure will visit NI. Scrapping it from Belfast will only fill the pockets of Easyjet and Jet 2 taking people off on holiday.

The changes at DUB would off set the majority of APD costs anyway.

However, apart from retaining United as our scheduled route hitherto (yes I know VS are coming for a few months),what tangible benefits has the acting of this tax brought? Have we seen lower fares? Have we seen significant growth in passenger numbers....?


Sums it up well

The question is would United really withdraw ? And with a permanent abolition would we see new services ex Belfast ?

Never a full withdraw but I suspect a seasonal operation and I even believe that may happen anyway. They would have to consider the possibility of DL or AA moving in had they left and I expect that's why they wouldn't.

[GAZMO]

Good news on the Bulgaria route for next year. Well done

[BFS BHD]

New summer charter program to Bulgaria

Local tour operator Travel Solutions has this week announced a new addition to its Balkan portfolio with the launch of a 2016 summer charter programme.

Managing Director Peter McMinn said: "After such a successful first winter ski season it was a natural progression to extend the Balkan programme to launch a summer beach product. It was clear from our agents' feedback that they were expecting it."

The Balkan Sun programme will operate from late June to early September. Direct non-stop flights will operate on a Saturday afternoon using modern E-190 Embraer aircraft operated by Bulgaria Air - the country's national carrier. Guests will have a choice of hotels and apartments in the popular Sunny Beach resort.

Source, NI Travel News

Hopefully thats not the last route announcement for BFS for S16! :ok:

[GAZMO]

Hopefully a few more routes next year. I think it was July / August time last year when many of the new routes were announced, but along with Burgas with Bulgarian Air, FUE with TCX and LS

Chatting to EZY crew on a flight this week and asking about any new routes, nothing confirmed but they had heard the Copenhagen rumour and Hamburg as well

[BFS BHD]

Think one of the managers of EZY that's in Ireland said Copenhagen was most likely a no. So looks like it may be Hamburg that's announced soon!

[EI-BUD]

Copenhagen would be surprising especially considering that there has been such an increase in capacity on the Dublin route, with most days x5 rotations. However, EasyJet know the addresses of people booking say on AMS BFS etc so may have data to back up any plans, but still think it's a long shot.

My money is in previously operated routes, namely Berlin..

[AIRPORT66]

Berlin along with Lisbon are my 2 predictions for this year you may even see another don't be surprised.

[GAZMO]

If there is another would like to see MAD.


Does anyone think Wizz could start BUD twice weekly?

[mart901]

wish they would!

[SecondDog]

If there is another would like to see MAD.


Does anyone think Wizz could start BUD twice weekly?

I believe W6 are very happy with the BFS restart so new routes might not be too far away

[owenc]

Its gonna be hard to get a Belfast route with all the airlines going to Dublin. Belfast is going to have to get its arse in gear and try and persuade the airlines to come here or else the airport is going to go down in the shacks.

In a way when you think about it, although obviously not as bad its quite similar to the LHR thing in England isn't it. Although tbh if it weren't people from here that airport down there wouldn't be anywhere near its level.

Which kind of irritates me because we are constantly told that routes are not viable. :ugh:

[richardnei]

I heard that a CRJ-900 operator had been in talks with BFS recently. Air Nostrum (Iberia) operate a sizeable fleet from MAD and they have operated seasonal flights from other regional airports in recent years.

Remember Air Europa operated a weekly charter with inbound tourists to NI a few Summers ago which were usually full. A MAD service wouldn't beyond possibility.

The only factor that would effect the possibility of a service from BFS is BA/ IAG operated from BHD.

[stab3.5up]

Do German wings Euro wings not have crjs? I would have thought IAG would keep all eggs in one basket

[West Brit]

EZY have NCL, EDI, GLA, BRS, LPL arriving in around 0800. If VS were to start Boston and Toronto from BFS (one 3 days the other 4 days) could they not have a loose arrangement with EZY as a feeder? I mean with long haul APD lower at BFS, would it not be an option to fly Boston/Toronto via BFS from other UK regions? The VS flights could arrive at say 0700 & depart out at 0930 minimum hanging around for connections.

[LAX_LHR]

given VS don't even offer LHR (or LON for that matter)-YYZ Id be surprised to see them suddenly offer it from BFS first.


As for Boston, lets just see how MCO fares before looking at BOS. LAS is more likely.

[AIRPORT66]

Owenc management at BFS have got there arses in gear they are constantly talking to airlines trying to persuade them to operate out of Belfast,most of the airlines that they talk to including the ones already there want money to start up such routes, which means it comes from stormont,there is meetings with investni going on at the minute to set up another route development budget so we will see what happens when that is all sorted out hopefully not in to distant future,when you operate a route from any airport a certain amount of people have to use it, if that does not happen the route becomes non viable.

[CabinCrewe]

If BFS is (really) lucky, it might get the slow burn progression that GLA got over past 5-6 years, but thats it. The APD advantage will have gone in a year or two and this far has not led to a flurry of regular year round long haul routes. EZY do not interline so that would be a passngers iffy risk using your theory.

[owenc]

EZY have NCL, EDI, GLA, BRS, LPL arriving in around 0800. If VS were to start Boston and Toronto from BFS (one 3 days the other 4 days) could they not have a loose arrangement with EZY as a feeder? I mean with long haul APD lower at BFS, would it not be an option to fly Boston/Toronto via BFS from other UK regions? The VS flights could arrive at say 0700 & depart out at 0930 minimum hanging around for connections.

I want Westjet to come. Not sure about Boston, maybe someone could start a 737-800 to there? I would think that would cut into Newark service.

[owenc]

Owenc management at BFS have got there arses in gear they are constantly talking to airlines trying to persuade them to operate out of Belfast,most of the airlines that they talk to including the ones already there want money to start up such routes, which means it comes from stormont,there is meetings with investni going on at the minute to set up another route development budget so we will see what happens when that is all sorted out hopefully not in to distant future,when you operate a route from any airport a certain amount of people have to use it, if that does not happen the route becomes non viable.

Well it doesn't seem like they are when every single route ends up going to Dublin.

[left rudder]

Hi


Been away for a while and on return I am curious to find no reference to the High Court "battle" re £20m disappointment fee.


Anyone have the inside track on this?


Thanks

[SecondDog]

Well it doesn't seem like they are when every single route ends up going to Dublin.

That is because our government do not back us in the same way that the republic backs DUB. It is simply about money and they have had a big head start while Abertis sat with their heads up their arses for 7 years. You wouldn't believe some of the stories from a business viewpoint. Hard to get back in the game after that.

[BFS BHD]

Passengers This Month: 393,184 +8
Passengers Rolling Year: 4,080,521 +1

Domestic:
Gatwick: ................40,823 ..+4
Luton: ...................23,770 ...+12
Stansted: ..............26,329 ....+3

Birmingham: ..........16,573 ...-0
Bristol: ..................20,995 ...+9
Edinburgh: .............21,801 ....+11
Glasgow: ...............24,352 ....+18
Jersey: ..................679
Liverpool: ..............35,764 ....+4
Manchester: ...........18,923 ....+8
Newcastle: .............18,410 ....+11

International:
Dubrovnik: .............1,192 .....+24
Split: .....................341
Larnaca: ................1,883 .....+13
Bordeaux: ..............615
Nice: .....................2,678 .....-4
Paris: ....................7,109 .....+2
Lourdes: ................2,423 .....+1
Corfu: ....................520 .......+1
Heraklion: ..............1,470 .....+2
Zante: ...................151
Pisa: .....................331 ........-20
Rome CIA: .............96
Rome FCO: ............1,489
Verona: .................356
Malta: ...................2,404 .......-0
Amsterdam: ...........9,013 ......+5
Faro: ....................14,654 .....+2
Alicante: ................13,741 .....+7
Barcelona: ..............5,113 ......+10
Ibiza: ....................3,467 ......+33
Mahon: ..................621 .........+4
Malaga: .................14,022 .....+9
Murcia: ..................750 .........-67
Palma: ...................19,340 .....-6
Reus: .....................3,717 ......+0
Lanzarote: ..............5,513 ......+43
Las Palmas: ............1,212 ......+120
Tenerife: .................6,347 .....+24
Keflavik: .................1,909
Bodrum: .................1,472 ......-3
Dalaman: ................2,136 ......-44
Burgas: ..................186 .........-18
Prague: ..................1,887
Vilnius: ..................2,645
Katowice: ...............2,522
Krakow: .................3,451 .......-13
Sharm El Sheikh: .....163 ..........-3
Newark: .................6,953 .......-15

[GAZMO]

Overall not a bad month. thanks BFS BHD for the figures.

New York slightly disappointing! Think Wizzair should be relatively happy on their figures

[ILS25]

A night sleeping on the floor at BFS. I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather be. Seriously, you have to feel for these poor people.

United Airlines Flight Diverts to Belfast, Passengers Sleep on Floor - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/united-airlines-flight-diverts-belfast-passengers-sleep-floor-n379221)

[GAZMO]

A night sleeping on the floor at BFS. I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather be. Seriously, you have to feel for these poor people.

United Airlines Flight Diverts to Belfast, Passengers Sleep on Floor - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/united-airlines-flight-diverts-belfast-passengers-sleep-floor-n379221)
Nice to see Chicago on departure board even if it's a diverted flight

[SecondDog]

A night sleeping on the floor at BFS. I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather be. Seriously, you have to feel for these poor people.

United Airlines Flight Diverts to Belfast, Passengers Sleep on Floor - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/united-airlines-flight-diverts-belfast-passengers-sleep-floor-n379221)

Horrendous ordeal for the passengers. Not a bad job by the airport overall given the circumstances.

[El Bunto]

22 hrs 47 minutes of their lives spent in Belfast Internaional. What possible level of compensation could make-up for that?:}

Actually most of that delay was due to the Captain calculating that the crew would time-out by a few minutes during the onward flight. Pity he couldn't have refiled with a faster cruising speed, 270 people would probably have put their hands in their pockets to pay for the extra fuel... but I don't suppose he cared, since the rooms in the Maldron hotel are quite comfy.

[SecondDog]

22 hrs 47 minutes of their lives spent in Belfast International. What possible level of compensation could make-up for that?:}


Erm... the kind offered by United I would guess goes a hell of a long way towards it ;-) Despite the best efforts of the BT rag/paper to stir the pot, the vast majority of the affected passengers were understanding of the situation and reacted with class given their predicament.

Just another example of the bias BFS faces from both politicians and media here.

[GAZMO]

Have to agree second dog, the report in BT was unfair, aircraft taxiing to end if runway after 10pm and then suddenly not enough hours left to fly back to Chicago? I think the BFS staff should be commented for their efforts as it's the airlines responsibility not the airports. Well done to those who helped out

Wonder where the crew stayed??

[ILS25]

Aircraft taxied well before 10pm. Crew stayed in the Maldron.

[West Brit]

Interesting aircraft earlier this evening-who is in town?

[GAZMO]

What type of aircraft?

[West Brit]

With Easyjet's new base at Barcelona do you think that Belfast flights will originate there, thus allowing the Belfast aircraft to be used on the new proposed route?

[GAZMO]

Interesting suggestion. Would be a good idea. Still waiting on a possible EZY announcement, speculation for a German route?

[BFS BHD]

I would say that's maybe why Barcelona isn't on sale yet. :)

[GAZMO]

Going out tomorrow morning from BFS. If a new route they kept it quiet!!!

BY7611 NEW YORK/J.F.K. 07:25 .???

[SecondDog]

Going out tomorrow morning from BFS. If a new route they kept it quiet!!!

BY7611 NEW YORK/J.F.K. 07:25 .???

School exchange with kids from NYC. Comes back tomorrow night.

[GAZMO]

Thanks second dog

[carlrsymington]

What type is it?

[El Bunto]

What type is it?

B763





The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[BFS watcher]

Any word on the Aer Lingus case decision and what is the schedule for the first Vuirgin flight tomorrow?

[GAZMO]

Virgin departure tomorrow. Think arriving about 11.30am, depart 12.35. Probably loads of spotters in the viewing gallery tomorrow. Anyone know what the load factor is like on the first flight?

VIR161ORLANDO12:35

[BFS BHD]

EasyJet is starting Belfast International - Lyon in W15/16 at 1 weekly flight (Sat).
*Info from EasyJet thread*

Wonder is this the route that has been talked about or is there another one or two to come?

[GAZMO]

Was just about to post the same but you beat me to it


Source
Lyon: easyJet ouvre quatre nouvelles destinations (http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/2015/06/24/97002-20150624FILWWW00129-lyon-easyjet-ouvre-quatre-nouvelles-destinations.php)

[AIRPORT66]

I wonder is it a skiing flight.

[GAZMO]

I think there will be a large number of skiers using the service as close to Glenoble and other French ski resorts. Don't know if the ski season starts as early as late October
Lyon being the second largest city in France after Paris is there a possibility of a second weekly flight in the future!

[mart901]

Winter only (for now) but great news. I believe Lyon is a good city break, not as well known as some but very much a gastronomic centre, shame if its only ever weekly because it won't appeal to that market.

[BFS BHD]

EasyJet has just put Lanzarote on sale 2 weekly for W15/16 (Tues & Sat) on the A320!

[EI-A330-300]

Good news have they make an error with fares return flights for £50, people moan about the costs of long haul flights but in winter you are talking €120 at least return ex DUB.....

[BHD2BFS]

Are these new routes at the cost of others
Or will it be an increase in flights ex Belfast

[GAZMO]

More good news from EZY and BFS. Fares to ACE very attractive at moment, one way flights from £28!!! Probably will not last too long.
Lyon starting mid Decemeber so mainly aimed At ski market, again prices very keen at moment

[mart901]

Yup definitely found £60 return to Lanzarote!

[El Bunto]

Virgin 747 due in around 10:45 this morning empty from Gatwick to do the 12:35 to Orlando.

First return is next Friday. Will position onwards empty again to Gatters.

Pity they don't have the positioning flights on sale to enthusiasts :(

Is that the plane coming out of Heathrow now?

Is that the plane coming out of Heathrow now?

I see the one you mean, might be it. Worth watching.

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker! (http://fr24.com/VIR878P/69fc122)

I was told Gatwick though, which is the base with the holidayer seat-configurations.

Maybe. We'll have to wait and see then but that one is heading nw.

Ok its not that one then lol

Here's our girl, G-VGAL. Taxi-ing out at Gatters

Flightradar24.com - Live flight tracker! (http://fr24.com/VIR161P/69fd4e1)

[owenc]

This is great. 2 new routes from Belfast, we cannot moan.. Maybe a slow but gradual expansion of a few routes each year is the best option for us?

I think this is now 28 destinations with Easyjet which is quite alot actually.

[GAZMO]

Hi Mart901


Found a £47 return with EZY to ACE (5/12/2015 - 19/12/2015). Wouldn't cover the cost of the fuel!!!!

[BFS BHD]

Looks like Barcelona and Malta as been replaced by Lanzarote and Lyon!

[owenc]

Congratulations https://mobile.twitter.com/BelfastAirport/status/614014986319470592

Dublin won't be pleased.

[yeo valley]

i think you will find lyon a winter route only. its aimed at the skiers. they do the same out of brs with a few other routes aimed at skiers as well.

[AIRPORT66]

Great news from Easyjet on these new flights,would say Lanzarote is them dipping there toes in canary islands if it goes well we might see Tenerife next but i would say a european city will be next.

[GAZMO]

I still think there is time for BCN and Malta to come on stream. Assuming EZY using the aircraft that does the Palma route during the summer for these new routes there may still be another announcement soon.


Congrats on Virgin arrival/ departure today. Hopefully more to come next year

[owenc]

The cabin crew are from here aswell. Very good.

[ILS25]

Great to see that big girl at BFS. Keep them coming. :D

[GAZMO]

Virgin confirm they are back in BFS next year 2016 but with only the same number of flights?
source NI Travel News

[ILS25]

Good news. Every flight is welcome. Hopefully there is other work going on behind the scenes with virgin.

[owenc]

UM? Surely that is not enough? If they can have this flight in July then it can at least run in August aswell.

[West Brit]

If Lyon & Lanzarote are brought in at the cost of Barcelona & Malta for winter - not a good day for BFS. In actual fact if Barcelona is lost for winter then this is a step backwards. OK maybe Malta will be summer only from now on - I could live with that. Barcelona hopefully will be operated for the majority of the winter if not with a Belfast plane then a Barcelona based aircraft.
Surely EZY could do with 6 aircraft all year round at Belfast. With an additional aircraft the domestic expansion this winter could continue through next summer. A slight increase on AMS on peak days to compete with KLM. Certainly another rotation to BHX and MAN a Saturday flight to CDG. With what time is left over a European city or two.
As for Orlando TCX will maybe run a full summer program next year.

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus won the case however must pay 50% of the costs for BFS taking the case....

Aer Lingus was not under a 10-year contractual obligation to fly out of Belfast International Airport, judge rules - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/aer-lingus-was-not-under-a-10year-contractual-obligation-to-fly-out-of-belfast-international-airport-judge-rules-31330013.html)

[AIRPORT66]

Barcelona will be loaded before the end of the summer.

[GAZMO]

If it's the same as last year it will be twice weekly over Xmas and new year, then a break until mid February

[AIRPORT66]

Yes your right same as last winter.

[BFS Dude]

Has Turkish Airways rumor disappeared or they still planning BFS-IST?

[AerRyan]

Has Turkish Airways rumor disappeared or they still planning BFS-IST?

Pretty sure a double daily DUB service was the one that won out. It was between a BFS, SNN or extra DUB service.

[BFS Dude]

Thanks AerRyan

[West Brit]

So TCX A330 en route from Man heading west, I take it that this aircraft will be for BFS-Orlando. For a couple of weeks BFS is back to the way it was pre-2007, all that is missing is a couple of Canadian flights!!

[owenc]

Virgin 2 or 3 times each week June,July and August would be enough for me.

[owenc]

Actually just been on Twitter and a flight attendant says Virgin is coming twice a week next year

[GAZMO]

Some strange arrivals tomorrow into BFS. Cannot see any departures for these flights/airline. Can anyone enlighten?
DAT4451BOURNEMOUTH08:2008:20HV8619LONDON LUTON08:2008:20V32184EXETER08:3008:30BM8158BRISTOL08:4008:40

[SecondDog]

Some strange arrivals tomorrow into BFS. Cannot see any departures for these flights/airline. Can anyone enlighten?
DAT4451BOURNEMOUTH08:2008:20HV8619LONDON LUTON08:2008:20V32184EXETER08:3008:30BM8158BRISTOL08:4008:40

Several charters for a conference.

[GAZMO]

Thanks for that.


From BFS EZY announcement “We continue to work closely with easyJet towards realising even more exciting developments for Belfast in the future.”


Can we read anything into this?

[Husky One]

The VS plan is the same for next year. I presume if it sells well that they could extend it by a week or two either side but it'll likely stay at once per week. TCX are also running MCO next year.
Good to see EZY heading towards the canaries albeit about 5 years late. This looks to be at the expense of MLA. The base is established to 5 a/c and there are no plans to change that.

[david1994]

Just seen this video and I'm guessing we can take this as confirmation we will see more new routes or an increase on existing routes with another aircraft?

https://youtu.be/VnLSFg9eA9c?t=49s

[EGAC is Better]

Good to see EZY heading towards the canaries albeit about 5 years late. This looks to be at the expense of MLA. The base is established to 5 a/c and there are no plans to change that Is it possible that EZY will start operating some of the current international flights at BFS from European bases? This would allow them to use the BFS based aircraft to maintain current services.

Particular examaples are the AMS flight potentially transferring to the AMS base and longer term BCN to the new BCN base (opening Feb 2016). That kind of approach would certainly help them get the new bases up and running using already established routes therefore minimising risk.

There is also a base at Lyon which could provide an aircraft for that new service.

On the ACE, I am assuming that will operate with a non-based unit unless there are plans to keep the A320 through the winter? Unless I am mistaken the EZY A319 fleet is certified for lower MTOW to reduce landing costs which may make BFS-ACE a bit of a stretch when full of pax and bags. Happy to be corrected!

[BFS BHD]

The A320 is based all year at BFS. :)

[BFS101]

June passenger numbers up 8% year on year.

Passenger numbers soar as airport ramps up for summer getaway - Belfast International Airport (http://www.belfastairport.com/en/news/1/489/pasenger-numbers-soar-as-airport-ramps-up-for-summer-getaway.html)

[mart901]

BCN

Still no sign of BCN past Nov, anyone know otherwise? Will we have it for 2016 or will it be switched to something competition free? ;)

[GAZMO]

I think from last year BCN was very very late, I think possibly came on line when EZY uploaded rest of winter schedule for Feb and March.
See comment from airporter66 previous.

MLA has probably not going to be on for winter but will EZY bring it back for summer 16 or look to expand into the canaries?

[GAZMO]

Travel solutions doing a one off to Riga on 25th March 2016

[EI-BUD]

I've heard that progressively UA will put 767's on transatlantic routes in place of 757's and move 757's to US domestic services... If this is true could result in improved capacity for BFS EWR route.

Has anybody on here heard anything to this effect?
EI-BUD

[owenc]

I don't think it could support that. I don't know where you got that from.

I heard 767's to Europe and 757 to UK and Ireland.

If they put on a 767 Belfast will be dropped or else summer seasonal.

I can see it being pulled anyway..

[EI-BUD]

Owenc,

I don't know why you would say the route will be pulled, it just celebrated a major anniversary and has been performing consistently.

I heard the comment about the 767 from 2 sources, 1 that works in at Heathrow and the same was in airliner world magazine. The article was about UA withdrawing from JFK and doing some slot exchanges with DL between JFK and EWR. UA ops were small at JFK anyway. But it went on to say 757s would be taken off TA and 767s put in their place.

[j636]

They plan to remove B752 in time but places such as OSL, ARN, HAM, CDG, LHR, DUB etc will all be ahead. I think BFS will stick with 752 until 2018 when the MAX arrive. They are only getting a few B777 from
next year so not enough for wide scale replacements on current B767 routes. 2018 is also the same year when a bunch of 787/350 start to arrive so really cant see major changes until then.

[flying officer kite]

Agreed with j636, I would not imagine any changes until more 787s arrive, or indeed if they deem the 737MAX to be a viable option (winter ops would be..interesting!)

[owenc]

Owenc,

I don't know why you would say the route will be pulled, it just celebrated a major anniversary and has been performing consistently.

I heard the comment about the 767 from 2 sources, 1 that works in at Heathrow and the same was in airliner world magazine. The article was about UA withdrawing from JFK and doing some slot exchanges with DL between JFK and EWR. UA ops were small at JFK anyway. But it went on to say 757s would be taken off TA and 767s put in their place.

Yes i've already said they have done this.

They are moving their ps operation to EWR from JFK and taking SOME 757's off transatlantic but as I just said earlier the British Isles will be staying 757.

The reason why they did this was due to complaints about fuel stops.

The Belfast route is not very busy. Dublin is 4 daily flights with United in the summer.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/24684876-post788.html

[owenc]

Agreed with j636, I would not imagine any changes until more 787s arrive, or indeed if they deem the 737MAX to be a viable option (winter ops would be..interesting!)

Well it is viable, it has a range of 4100 miles - flights that diverted last year had over 80% of range. Belfast is 75% of 737 max range

They have ordered the 737 max 9 so obviously the same capacity as the 757. Range will not be an issue as much with them as they won't fill the plane with the max capacity.

I don't think they will introduce the max for a while though. I can't see them retiring the 757's for a while.

[El Bunto]

I've heard that progressively UA will put 767's on transatlantic routes in place of 757's and move 757's to US domestic services... If this is true could result in improved capacity for BFS EWR route.As owenc states, UAL 757s will remain on British Isles routes.

UAL memo:

We were already replacing Boeing 757s with Boeing 767s on flights from EWR to BCN (Barcelona, Spain) and TXL (Berlin) this summer and now they will continue as 767s year-round.

We will make the same upgauges from EWR to HAM (Hamburg, Germany) and MAD (Madrid, Spain) effective Oct. 25.

[flying officer kite]

This is growing a little tiresome with the messages and attitude on here and other forums.


First of all, a major international airline will have a better idea of what is viable or not, than one single person will, unless you possess the intimate financial knowledge of what United deem to be the perfect balance of passenger and cargo revenue vs. length of flight and operational viability..if so we are of course all ears. The 737 MAX does have range, though the manufacturer will not know exactly how much until flight testing- look at the C-Series and MD11 projects, the estimates were both off (in opposite directions) before it came to flight testing.


Also keep in mind that just about all aircraft at max range trade off valuable cargo/passenger capacity. For example a 747-400 can fly direct from London to Australia, and has done before, but only if practically empty. Fill her up and you have to trade off fuel, hence why the furthest you can fly direct from Heathrow is to the likes of Manila or Singapore- both of which really push it to the limits.


Airlines that operate on long flights often have to work out what is more cost effective- making tech stops for fuel, or reducing payload to make it direct..both are very costly. Even on aircraft with a very long range, you can find that you have to carry extra fuel just to carry along other extra fuel into the air..at long range the efficiency of an aircraft goes downhill.


The largest variant of the MAX family- the 9 series is about 5 metres shorter than a 757, so it is unlikely to have the same seating capacity, and indeed for many airlines on the order books, they have stated it will have fewer seats. It's always good to check facts before posting.


Existing 737s do have good range capabilities, but there is a difference between the likes of Transcontinental and Transatlantic, with the latter you are more restricted on routing, diversion points, ETOPs, and of course the strong winter winds. I've flown just shy of 7 hours direct on a standard 737-800, which according to 'the book' is perfectly achievable, but in reality the airline in question places heavy restrictions on the number of seats sold. Last month I flew Transatlantic on a WOW A321, 6 hour flight, and only achievable with 2 extra fuel tanks in the hold.


Also remember that a fully laden 737-900 is quite a ground hogger on a runway (the MAX 9 is suspected to be the same) you might find that on shorter runways there are performance problems. (Dublin Airport and the failed Air India plan??)


My own humble opinion (and it is just that, not a fact) is that the 737MAX will feature heavily on the domestic market, Caribbean and into Central and South America-Colombia, Venezuela, Suriname, Guyana etc. allowing the older 757s to retire. There are still plenty of young 757s out there to keep plying the oceanic routes for years. The new 787 is smaller than the 767, so we may see more of them in Europe, but unless something changes in the market it is unlikely to come to Belfast..perhaps if they dropped from daily to 5 weekly or something??

[BFS BHD]

Any update on the CRJ-900 operator that was rumored to be in talks with BFS last month? Any other rumors around?

[BFS BHD]

Only a few June stats available today for BFS.

Gatwick- 39,813 +2
Luton- 27,881 +29 (Luton overtakes Stansted?)
Stansted- 25,063 -1

[GAZMO]

Notice rest of winter season now on sale. No sign of BCN or MLA during this period?
They were late putting them up last year but I believe they were on sale in July last year.....disappointing

[mart901]

I hope they haven't dropped them altogether, I'm sure that Lanzarote and Lyon were deemed as winter routes but that means very little in aviation nowadays! Hoping VY don't get Barcelona to themselves, that will be the end of cheap!

[Straightahead]

I am led to believe that MLA has been replaced with ACE

[BFS BHD]

Did i not see someone on here posting that BCN will be on sale towards the end of summer? :)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

EWR reductions or is it the same as 2014

6 weekly from 9 August
5 weekly from 29 August
4 weekly from 5 September
3 weekly from 28 September
2 weekly from 16 November
4 flights on Dec 3-4-5-6
2 weekly from 7 March
3 weekly from 28 March
4 weekly from 4 April

[GAZMO]

I think a reduction as they had flights over the Xmas period and new year.
I think they stopped about 6th January last year

[owenc]

Wrong. United timetable has flights to 6th January again.

It's bookable.

[BFS BHD]

Seems like Prague and Rome as been put off sale for Jet2 for Summer 2016.

[GAZMO]

Disappointing but shows the difficulty BFS has in maintaining new routes
Would be concerned about Iceland as well, as numbers for last couple of months are not too good looking.
Full figures for June now available and most other routes looking good

[BFS BHD]

I'm hoping they are just off sale for now maybe being re timed or something.

[BFS BHD]

Palma has got TWO flights on Thursdays and Sundays.

Flight Number is EXS391/2

Looks like the Prague slots are being used now for Palma... :(

Edit: Alicante now got 6 weekly flights Tuesday flight now added.

[GAZMO]

Wonder what they will use FCO slots for?
For Summer 16 free slot Thursday am and Sunday PM.
Wednesday morning still vacant, although Zante and FUE going out mid morning

Could be a few more to come. I make that Tuesday AM is three early plus TFS going out before 10am

Maybe fourth aircraft for next year

[GAZMO]

Looks like Faro has extra flight on Thursday next summer.
Still free slot on Sunday PM and only three flights on a Wednesday

[PPRuNeUser0176]

This just shows why there is "NO" case for axing APD in NI, there is no benefit to the economy to forgo the good money it brings in....

[OneBellEnd]

And you'd be in a position to offer an opinion on that!! Also a "case" which strongly argues if Dublin and its agencies used the £millions of yearly tourism funding fed to it by Belfast for the intended and legit purpose of promoting tourists flying to Belfast there would indeed be EVERY economic reason for losing APD in NI quick-smart! :=

[mart901]

Exactly, on that basis the Dublin government ought to bring back APD to improve its finances. Until it gets axed nobody can prove it will or won't help grow passenger numbers but I sure as hell don't believe it helps, particularly as such a high percentage of flights are domestic

[PPRuNeUser0176]

And you'd be in a position to offer an opinion on that!! Also a "case" which strongly argues if Dublin and its agencies used the £millions of yearly tourism funding fed to it by Belfast for the intended and legit purpose of promoting tourists flying to Belfast there would indeed be EVERY economic reason for losing APD in NI quick-smart!

That is to include NI in marketing not force people to fly to NI.

Exactly, on that basis the Dublin government ought to bring back APD to improve its finances. Until it gets axed nobody can prove it will or won't help grow passenger numbers but I sure as hell don't believe it helps, particularly as such a high percentage of flights are domestic

Why would they do that, the deficit is only around 2.5%, they had real commitments before it was scrapped and were told it would be restored if nothing happened. Do you think EZY would make a commitment to increase traffic by lets say 100 or 200,000 into BFS if it was scrapped. If airlines operating were serious about the tax they would make such commitments instead they would prefer for it to be scrapped and increase profits....

NI financial mess is like throwing stones in glass houses saying what you think the ROI should do.

[BFS Dude]

Rumor going around that people where seen at the Ticket Desks putting Ryanair equipment in!! Anyone heard anything? :eek:

[mart901]

EI-EIDW

There wouldn't really be a crisis in stormont if the relevant political parties had stuck to the agreements they made, the budget would be up and running now.
On the subject of APD yes of course revenue comes in as a result and indeed there maybe other sorts of incentives that could work, but until its removed we won't know the effect, but the level of passengers from NI using DUB even for UK domestic and popular summer sun routes must surely be evidence, and not just border counties passengers, I live north of Belfast and I know people who use DUB for BCN, ALC, AGP - all of which are served by BFS and BHD. In those instances we don't even get the APD ! Also while I appreciate FR are masters of hyperbole its worth taking note despite the huge passenger numbers they achieved, they stated some of the reason for quiting BHD was APD, FR being the single biggest driver of growth at DUB.

[ILS25]

BFS Dude, haven't heard any rumour regarding Ryanair. I would think that route announcements and seat sales would be first before any work would be going on at check in desks etc. You never know though.

[BFS watcher]

Good to see the we love Dublin brigade on here. Government owned, government supported, lots of money from Tourism Ireland etc etc etc. The NI airports have very little chance against that kind of competition. Plus useless politicians on the hill who are more interested in flags, the past and where you walk than pushing this place forward. Would be great to see Ryanair here and there is a bit of a rumour going around that they may commence in the winter schedule though I doubt that one.

[ATNotts]

Good to see the we love Dublin brigade on here. Government owned, government supported, lots of money from Tourism Ireland etc etc etc. The NI airports have very little chance against that kind of competition. Plus useless politicians on the hill who are more interested in flags, the past and where you walk than pushing this place forward. Would be great to see Ryanair here and there is a bit of a rumour going around that they may commence in the winter schedule though I doubt that one.

Northern Ireland is a victim of it's rather stupid tribalism. I would suggest that a chimpanzee could get elected in a staunchly Catholic or Protestant area of Belfast provided they were seen to attend the correct place of worship!

Unless, and until the electorate start voting in elections on real policies, like the rest of us in UK do, rather than on the basis of flags, traditions and religion then neither the province, nor it's airports, will ever achieve their true potential, as the politicians that are elected have no real incentive do do anything (economically) constructive.

[madgav]

Astonished that anyone looking from the aviation / route development point of view would suggest that axing APD would not be a good thing :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Anyone who wanted the Belfast airports to be able to compete on a more level playing field anyway......:=

Our relatively small city's airports now have almost 7m pax pa despite us probably suffering more than any other UK airport from the curse of APD. Why would much more not be achieved if it was axed?

Always sad to see NI pax using DUB for routes served from BFS/BHD, guess you can't blame people for choosing the cheapest option though :(

Re our politicians, :mad:

[mart901]

Exactly - price is the big driver. It would work the other way if it was cheaper here, remember the supermarkets with empty shelves in NI because so many people were driving up to shop en-masse!

[PPRuNeUser0176]

On the subject of APD yes of course revenue comes in as a result and indeed there maybe other sorts of incentives that could work, but until its removed we won't know the effect, but the level of passengers from NI using DUB even for UK domestic and popular summer sun routes must surely be evidence, and not just border counties passengers, I live north of Belfast and I know people who use DUB for BCN, ALC, AGP - all of which are served by BFS and BHD. In those instances we don't even get the APD ! Also while I appreciate FR are masters of hyperbole its worth taking note despite the huge passenger numbers they achieved, they stated some of the reason for quiting BHD was APD, FR being the single biggest driver of growth at DUB.

DUB got commitments and I believe last year was the busiest year on record for tourism with and spend in the economy increased on the back of it. Yes FR are a big driver but others also. As for quitting BHD, APD wouldn't bring them back.

Yes people use DUB and that will not change with APD, as for been cheaper very skeptical on that, very steep fares ex DUB. People sometime prefer to fly with x airline and will travel to do it. I'm sure there is plenty from the NW using BFS but don't see moaning about that.

You cannot give something for nothing when NI can't afford it, you will not see an influx of tourists into the region by the big carriers as there is not enough to be made. If you got commitments to open other than sun routes then maybe scrap it but until them it is pointless for the NI public as they will NOT see lower fares to Spain etc.

Astonished that anyone looking from the aviation / route development point of view would suggest that axing APD would not be a good thing

Anyone who wanted the Belfast airports to be able to compete on a more level playing field anyway......

Our relatively small city's airports now have almost 7m pax pa despite us probably suffering more than any other UK airport from the curse of APD. Why would much more not be achieved if it was axed?

Always sad to see NI pax using DUB, especially for routes served from BFS/BHD, guess you can't blame people for choosing the cheapest option though

Re our politicians,

Do tell me which flock of worthwhile carriers which would benefit NI in light of APD who served the airport during the good economic times and even when DUB had a 10 tax before UK followed

As for pax using DUB, it always happened it's just the daa got a clever marketing campaign together and by has it got the reaction intended across NI. The whole place knows what DUB has to offer now and numbers will grow more.

Even EK hired somebody to drive NI business onto DUB-DXB!

[NWSRG]

Northern Ireland is a victim of it's rather stupid tribalism. I would suggest that a chimpanzee could get elected in a staunchly Catholic or Protestant area of Belfast provided they were seen to attend the correct place of worship!

Unless, and until the electorate start voting in elections on real policies, like the rest of us in UK do, rather than on the basis of flags, traditions and religion then neither the province, nor it's airports, will ever achieve their true potential, as the politicians that are elected have no real incentive do do anything (economically) constructive.

And there's a generalisation if ever I saw one...:=

[EI-BUD]

Couple of comments on NI pax using Dublin Airport;

Fact is many many people in NI live as V close to Dublin airport as they do either Belfast Airport. Hence, Dublin just as logical. Examples include Newry and Enniskillen.

Dublin has far far more destinations than Belfast has hence technically NI will never be in the market for this business. Hence, I believe that 90% of NI fliers using Dublin are going after these non served routes, or find Dublin as convenient distance wise as Belfast.

It is the other 10% and clearly I'm estimating these numbers, and there is limited hard data to explain this... The other 10% are being attracted by Ryanair low fares etc. Such significant numbers on DUB LHR are a worry if only point to point but again many could find Dublin more local or convenient. Let's also not overlook that many many people travel from south of the border to Belfast airports to fly from here. You see plenty of southern registrations in the BFS car park for example.

I also believe that the DAA advertising here is a waste of money. I check dub for the reasons above ie routes direct bur not from here....

My point in all this is I don't see Dublin as such a big deal, not to the extent it is made. NI airports handled over 7m pax last year not bad going for our population and good in proportion to Dublin. We are not doing so bad ...

[CCR]

People in Ireland whether you live in the Republic or the north will use the airports that are convenient and that has the destinations available as well as price.
As someone who lives in Belfast, I regularly use Dublin airport as well as Belfast`s airports. It`s easy to drive on the motorway to Dublin airport.
By public transport, its`s as easy to hop on the hourly Dublin airport express bus as it is to BFS from Belfast city bus station.
People need to realise that Belfast airports are regional airports and are best compared with the likes of Cork and Shannon airports rather than Dublin.
Indeed Cork and Limerick are a lot further away from Dublin airport than Belfast is and has the same issue of Munster passengers using Dublin airport as well as Cork and Shannon airports because of the range of destinations on offer from Dublin as well as the convenience of using the motorways by car or hopping on the Dublin airport express busses.
The fact is, there is only one major airport in Ireland. It`s a small island and all motorways lead to Dublin making it convenient for most people.

[benjyyy]

Exactly. I know that in my situation of leaving from Omagh - if not taking the car then it's far easier to hop on a bus that drops you right outside Dublin airport in 2 hours than attempt to use public transport to either BFS or BHD. And for over 65s that bus is free as well.

[brian_dromey]

The other consideration is the relative strength of the pound against the Euro. When taking families away for the summer, even a £30 difference (which a 99€ vs £99 fare is) will make a difference when 2+ people are travelling. Transport costs for a lot of the market will be relatively similar, but more choice of destinations and frequency from DUB.

3 weeks ago I stayed at Bewleys DUB, I couldn't believe the number of NI registered cars. Easily 30% plus. Maybe more. The islands improved motorway and express coach services to DUB are hurting airports in the South too, ORK is seeing massive leak of catchment to DUB, without APD.

[pholling]

The other consideration is the relative strength of the pound against the Euro. When taking families away for the summer, even a £30 difference (which a 99€ vs £99 fare is) will make a difference when 2+ people are travelling. Transport costs for a lot of the market will be relatively similar, but more choice of destinations and frequency from DUB.

3 weeks ago I stayed at Bewleys DUB, I couldn't believe the number of NI registered cars. Easily 30% plus. Maybe more. The islands improved motorway and express coach services to DUB are hurting airports in the South too, ORK is seeing massive leak of catchment to DUB, without APD.

The relative quality of surface transport and the focus that DUB provides will always make DUB more attractive for long-haul and leisure. Removing APD will shift the equilibrium somewhat, but will not move the centre of mass from DUB to NI. This is especially true of flights to North America. CanMericans, which form a much larger possible customer base for NA-Ireland flights, travel to Ireland as a whole. Many don't really have a clue about the Republic vs NI, other than those that have a memory of TV reports on the troubles. Everytime I am over in NI and on the North Cost during the US Summer School holidays the roads are lousy with DUB registered hire cars full of tourists. These trips are often focused on seeing much of the island as possible and not a specific region, it just doesn't really make sense to fly these passengers anywhere other than Dublin. Keep in mind this problem exists in GB, CanMericans travel to London and may venture elsewhere. This significantly skews summer capacity to LHR vs airport like BHM, MAN, NCL, etc. MAN has a much larger catchment population vs DUB, but has far fewer NA flight options.

[El Bunto]

Indeed Belfast International will never catch-up with Dublin in terms of tourist and visting relatives / friends traffic. We missed our chance to take the lead in the 1970s and it's too late now.

Opportunities for focus:

1. Assisting the on-site FBOs that are independently capturing corporate and US military stop-over traffic;

2. Capturing more pass-through traffic. Turkish Cargo choosing Shannon for refuelling their US cargo services is an example of lack of initiative at Belfast, as is Ethiopian choosing Dublin for refuelling.

Neither of these are relevant to general passenger traffic but provide a steady income stream.

[sealink]

I'm currently in Milan and i flew from Dublin even tho I'm 20 minutes from both BHD and BFS. Why did i fly from Dub...... because there was no flight option from home. I flew EI into MXP. I could also have flown EI into LIN or FR into BGY. Is simple. If you want the local airports to be supported you need to offer the routes. This trip is every 6 weeks and id love to fly from NI but it will be DUB until i have a choice from home.

[VickersVicount]

its not about offerring then its about using them/filling them.

[madgav]

Of course there is a flight option from home, via a connection to a hub airport that can offer many many more routes than BFS/BHD/DUB ever will.

I've used DUB in the past and hated the 2 hour drive to the airport, but the real killer was arriving 'home' on a flight from the US at 5am in the dark, tired and jetlagged, going through baggage claim / passport control / etc, and then realising I had a 2 hour drive home from the airport :(.
Personally I don't mind a connection so long as I end up landing at my local airport.

I know a few people who habitually use DUB and it's for cheap Ryanair fares to sun routes that are already well served from Belfast. For them the deciding factor is cost since BFS/BHD is just as convenient from where they live. Some valid points made in the posts above no doubt, but I still believe that many people are heading south for this reason alone. Removing APD could tip the balance in our favour for some passengers and could make some borderline routes viable.

Yes it works both ways to some extent and I'm sure plenty of people from ROI use Belfast airports, guess we just don't see those figures.

Finally yes I think we should recognise that our local airports aren't doing too bad. Hopefully we will continue to see passenger numbers and the variety of routes offered increase over the next few years :ok:

[GAZMO]

Some good points raised in the posts above
Yes removing APD could just tip the balance in making a route feasible at BFS. With 80% of pax leaving the NI airports fly to domestic GB could I suggest that APD is only removed from European destinations.........phased in if MLA's have no money

[CCR]

It would be great to see APD go but I really don`t think it makes much difference as Cork and Shannon airports face the same issue as Belfast`s airports and they don`t have APD.
The ease of access to Dublin airport due to the opening of the motorway network in the last decade is the real issue. I regularly drive from Belfast to Dublin airport in 75 mins.

[Preon]

Yes agree the motorway opening has made use of Dublin airport so much easier to travel quickly to for folk in 'Norn Iron' and I'm sure has helped tourism in general on the Island of Ireland.

The absence of UK/APD and provision of U.S. Pre-clearance certainly promotes Dublin as a very attractive departure choice across the Island.

On the subject of choice we have appreciated the services provided by Aer Lingus ex Georgie Best Airport let's hope they are left in place by Big Airways.

[josechung]

To be honest, US pre clearance has never been an issue for me and almost everyone I talk to don't really care. It always comes down to price.

I was having an interesting conversation with two colleagues today that went to trailfinders to book holidays to the US (one to vegas and one to new york). When they sat down to go through the options they were 1) hard sold one hotel and 2) were never given an option of the United flight from belfast. Instead it was united or delta from Dublin (obviously with a connection on to Vegas).

Has anyone else ever came across this issue? I'll be honest I book all my own travel through expedia so I know what the real options are.

Also, as a side note I geeked out a little and looked on expedia for them and the belfast flight via ewr was a bit cheaper

[Waldo1]

Expedia! Flipping heck, get a more cost conscious booking site in ur life....

[superq7]

Expedia! Flipping heck, get a more cost conscious booking site in ur life....

Such as.........?

[canberra97]

Expedia are not that cheap as there are better deals to be had, once upon a time Expedia was the first site most would use but I definitely don't think that's the case now.

There are several sites on the Internet that are good and far cheaper than Expedia which I always used until I found cheaper deals elsewhere although personally I always book flights direct on the airlines websites especially as I don't do package holidays, I tend to use my Avios with BA which is the majority of the time either on flights or flights and hotels combined.

Booking.com: 704,223 hotels worldwide. 52+ million hotel reviews. (http://www.booking.com) in my opinion is by far the best online hotel booking site though.

Off to Madrid on Sunday for 4 days, my third short break in 4 weeks after 3 days in France and 4 days in Barcelona during July.

SEAN

[Waldo1]

For hotels trivago is a great comparison site and then I always check gala hotels.com as they always end up cheaper again. For flights, start with sky scanner and go from there, I got the best deal on a flight to Helsinki the other week with mytrip.com

[mart901]

All depends what you want and when - sometimes Expedia is the cheapest, or the deals on topcashback/nectar make it a better deal. For next year I've found sunshine.co.uk cheapest for accommodation by far, and very often travel republic.co.uk. For flights with full service carriers sometimes opodo is cheaper than anyone, cheaper than airlines website.

[True Blue]

I have spoken to lots of people who were using Dublin where a service also existed from Belfast e,g London. When I asked why, they couldn't give a reason as to why they were not supporting the local airports. Some had been booked via travel agents, but they didn't query why they were using Dublin rather than Belfast. There was just an air of indifference to the question. So if we don't support existing routes, what chance have we for new ones. Also shows the weakness we have in not having one stronger airport here to fight its corner, but were are not allowed to discuss that.

[mart901]

We'll have to see what the future brings. There definitely is demand for euro routes from here, hence the number of connecting pax and people using Dub. IAG may the one with Vueling, and I think some expansion of Wizzair could be possible given the success this time round. Slowly slowly catchy monkey
....

[GAZMO]

Wizzair I think would be happy with the pax numbers so far. Hopefully they will look at Budapest and Warsaw?

[mart901]

They have so many bases anything could happen but Budapest would be great.

[josechung]

Waldo,
You're missing my point. Travel agents in Belfast aren't giving customers an option to fly from Belfast. It's always Dublin by default.

[josechung]

I took the Wizzair flight to Vilnius and back and it was packed both ways. Hopefully there are more flights like this!

[mart901]

Travel agents

I can honestly say I've experienced the "we have a much wider program available from Dublin" from travel agents, most recently Thomson, and advised how quick and easy it is to get there. I do think more could be done with our existing services also, the expense of connections with BA and KLM is crazy, another carrier or two into some different euro hubs would liven things up. There is always a risk of sounding very them and us but there is a principle in all this of supporting the local economy, taxes going into here and a whole list of other things. If you think what it would do for our economy to have more direct services into European cities, cost and convenience matter greatly in business.

[GAZMO]

Agree Mart901, I have found similar, and although DUB has a greater range of destinations I always try to fly from Belfast airports. However I can fully understand If people live on the south side of Belfast that DUB is just as handy, but I have a one hour drive further north. Yes support local economy if possible

[mart901]

And despite all the growth at DUB our two airports continue to grow, albeit slowly, the economic turnaround should continue to help. Actually only LDY in decline.

[BFS BHD]

United Airlines have just released that they will be operating year round at BFS no more stopping from 6th Jan to March anymore! Good news!

http://www.belfastairport.com/en/news/4/496/united-airlines-announces-belfast-new-york-serviceto-operate-year-round-belfast-new-york-nonstop-service-to-operate-through-all-winter-months.html

[mart901]

Brilliant news for BFS and NI in general!

[GAZMO]

Great, at least my trip to USA in January will be from BFS direct and not via LHR
Congrats to United and management at BFS

[True Blue]

I know that a few months back Easyjet had a press statement re more flights to London. Looking at their booking engine, am I right in thinking that there will be a lot more flights this winter to many domestic airports than there has been in the last 2-3 years? There are fewer flights on a Tuesday/Wednesday.

The times are still completely useless for a day return to London on a Saturday. Surely they could time a flight from at least one London airport a bit later?

TB

[BFS BHD]

Wizz Air is starting to release their flights for Summer 2016. Vilnius is on sale two weekly:

Mon & Fri flights.

Arrive BFS: 19:10
Depart BFS: 19:40

[mart901]

True Blue

Yes the MAN and BHX are having increases definitely - this was part of the LON announcement but it was very much less shouted about.

The only feasible day return on a Saturday is EI to LHR in winter, and that would be a 19.45 back, still not great!

[GAZMO]

TB
I think STN is the London airport that is getting more flights, Monday will now have five flights on a Monday and a Friday for winter. Agree it would be nice to see late flight on a Saturday for all those London football fans
MAN extra Friday flight, BHX three extra flights, Mon, Wed, Sun

[mart901]

Hasn't the LTN schedule been padded out during the week also?

[mart901]

Here's the link from the website;

Airport says easyJet London expansion ?historic milestone? - Belfast International Airport (http://www.belfastairport.com/en/news/1/447/airport-says-easyjet-london-expansion--‘historic-milestone’.html)

[josechung]

Wizz Air is starting to release their flights for Summer 2016. Vilnius is on sale two weekly:

Mon & Fri flights.

Arrive BFS: 19:10
Depart BFS: 19:40

Was about to book a return for next summer until I saw the prices! £297 without luggage.. This has got to drop?!

Ever mind, changed the date by 4 days and got it down to £98 return. quite the price difference!

[GAZMO]

Certainly a good deal. Wonder if Wizzair might try a few other routes?

[GAZMO]

Only a few stats through for July but London looking good
STN +5%, LTN +30% and LGW +9%

[BFS watcher]

Heard from a mate in Dubai that EK talking about coming to Belfast in Winter next year. Anyone heard anymore

[GAZMO]

Interesting!!! But with a double daily out of Dublin I think they will be concentrating on that route

[BFS BHD]

Don't think it will happen. I think they are happy with people going down to Dublin from Northern Ireland. But hope i'm wrong!!

[LandingConfig]

They'll be watching the number of pax connecting in GLA with Flybe closely.

[madgav]

There were rumours about that on the Emirates thread a few years ago, possibly due to Mr Clark's rather cryptic suggestion that their next UK destination "could be north of the border or further west" - but nothing came of this (obviously). A Mid East route is something BFS have supposedly been pursuing (as they should) and must be likely to happen "sometime". With EK wanting to start 100 new cities in the next decade etc......

I do wonder what EK will do re the inevitable (eventual) expansion of their Dublin route. Would they
- upgauge one or other of the flights
- start a third daily
- or start BFS, maybe sub-daily and/or possibly timed to complement the existing two flights and provide more choice for passengers both sides of the border? I'm sure BFS would bend over backwards to have them (as they should). And I take it it would be classed as a long haul flight and thus exempt from APD?


They'll be watching the number of pax connecting in GLA with Flybe closely.Not just GLA.... personally I've connected to EK in BHX and to QR in LGW and LHR. Question is, are there enough such pax? I'd be more optimistic if EK had smaller aircraft to start routes to smaller cities, but IIRC soon their smallest aircraft will be a 77L? Saying that, they started NCL (an airport only slightly larger than BFS and much smaller than BFS+BHD) on a 332 and now appear to be doing very well with a daily 77W. And NCL has to compete with MAN/EDI/GLA.

Must say I wouldn't want to see this happen and then fail, I'm happy to be patient until the local market is ready for it

[flying officer kite]

The good thing about a Middle East route is that the market for a direct flight definitely exists. A huge number of passengers fly out of Belfast each day, with connections to the East and beyond. In the last number of years this has been on the up, partly boosted by the number of families from India, China, Philippines, and many other countries who have settled down here. Flybe has codeshares with Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, even Finnair if you think of the East Asian routes they operate. BA and Aer Lingus both offer a huge number of connecting options, with One World, Virgin, Royal Brunei, etc. etc. KLM has a great network of different destinations, thanks to Skyteam, and finally you have the droves of passengers who use Dublin each day.


The possible negative is that Dublin is looking into an A380 stand, I can only assume for Emirates.


Could Emirates fill a 400ish seat 777, including all the expensive first class seats every day? who knows. With their A330s on the way out their smallest aircraft is now the 777 'Worldliner' with around 260 seats. This combined with a healthy cargo flow- aerospace, pharmaceuticals etc. should keep them busy. I'm still holding out for the likes of Turkish though.


With all 3 of the big ME carriers on the constant expansion it will be interesting to see who jumps in first.

[TSR2]

A huge number of passengers fly out of Belfast each day, with connections to the East and beyond.

What is the source of this information ?

[LandingConfig]

@madgav I was referring specifically to the new codeshare Flybe with EK on BHD-GLA and BHD-BHX.

[Husky One]

The idea that there are enough pax daily to support a 777 to the Middle East is questionable. It might work as a long haul connection service if EK were to deliberately target all of BA's (non US) LH connection traffic. Perhaps that's their game. Even so a 777 is still very optimistic. Mind you, EK appear to have more aircraft than they know what to do with.

[El Bunto]

The idea that there are enough pax daily to support a 777 to the Middle East is questionableI would have said the same 10 years ago about Newcastle-upon-Tyne yet today Emirates operates two daily returns, despite the abundance of options in Edinburgh ( no more distant than Belfast - Dublin ) and Glasgow.

Meanwhile Dublin has four dailies to the UAE and has Qatar coming on-stream too. The ME3 make their own market.

And InvestNI is pushing very hard for NI businesses to open-up to the Middle East, currently the roadshows have to trapse through Dublin to reach the conferences which is laughable.

[LAX_LHR]

NCL is only one daily.

[AIRPORT66]

A while back some kind of top10 was drawn up of where N ireland people fly to the most and Dubai was on it 95000 people a year flew to this destination, would that be enough to sustain such a route directly or would they need to try and expand it further to make it sustainable.

[EI-A330-300]

Y Passengers are not the issue but First and Business passengers as well as cargo.

NCL may not be such a good comparison as it's not exactly operating with wonderful loads. Even if it was loss making it's a route EK would never drop for strategic reasons, if they leave somebody else will arrive however this is not an issue for BFS.

A new Sales Executives based in BFS was hired by EK a few weeks ago to increase numbers on existing services at DUB and I expect via UK points.

[OneBellEnd]

Indeed EI-A330-300!

And you can glibly satisfy yourself with that dismissal of what may or may not be feasible for Emirates and others out of BFS.:)

[EI-A330-300]

Indeed EI-A330-300!

And you can glibly satisfy yourself with that dismissal of what may or may not be feasible for Emirates and others out of BFS.

Well TK can't make BFS commercially viable on a B738 and we are talking about EK sending a B777......

[stab3.5up]

As much chance as ORK or SNN getting a DXB flight. NI airports have probably had there day for long haul flights. More likely to get more short haul European routes into hubs. Maybe Westjet or Europeairpost might work to Canada but it's like the corner shop trying to compete with a tescos superstore BHD /BFS vs DUB.
In fact could West jet operate from BHD? Probably not but what would the limits be for BHD for aircraft say 319/320 736 735 types

[NWSRG]

While EK might seem a long shot, we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss the possibility...EK seem to be able to find the customers where others struggle, and as mentioned above, they are running from reasonably close airports all over the UK. If NCL, MAN, BHX and GLA can all co-exist, maybe EK could make BFS work. Add in the fact that they are about to place an order for either 787-10s or A359s, and they may have a better sized aircraft to consider opening BFS. It's great to see the new MD at BFS pushing for new routes...with VS coming in (albeit in a small way) and UA now more secure, maybe the shoots of recovery are beginning to show. And there is a lot of business in NI making its presence felt all over the globe.

But I do wonder why our friends from south of the border seem so keen to talk BFS down? :=

[True Blue]

Stab3

why does it have to Bhd? Why could they not operate from Bfs if they wanted to serve N Ireland?

TB

[El Bunto]

LAX_LHR thanks for the correction on Newcastle frequency.

As for this guy:


NCL may not be such a good comparison as it's not exactly operating with wonderful loads. Even if it was loss making it's a route EK would never drop for strategic reasons, if they leave somebody else will arrive however this is not an issue for BFS.I don't follow this logic... you say that Newcastle has weak demand, so Emirates won't drop it because then some other airline would be able to come in and lose money on it instead? ???

Emirates are one of the smartest airlines on this Earth. If a route can't sustain them, it won't sustain Etihad or Qatar by far. And unlike that pair, Emirates has to make money; it provides a dividend back to the Dubai government.

[True Blue]

why daily from the start? They could start with say 3x weekly and build it up, limiting losses as opposed to going daily from day 1. The ME3 are going to have to find somewhere to put all the aircraft they have on order.

TB

[CabinCrewe]

3 times weekly routes etc are often hard to coordinate as you need another similar route to operate using the aircraft the rest of the week. Not unheard of for EK but increasingly less common. Don't see it for BFS. Will be all or nothing.

[EI-BUD]

Meanwhile Dublin has four dailies to the UAE and has Qatar coming on-stream too. The ME3 make their own market.


El Bunto,
in relation to that above statement, particularly 'has Qatar coming on stream too'. when was this announced?? I wasn't aware of this...


in relation to the debate about whether a middle eastern route is viable ex Belfast; it is not simply a case of whether such a route is viable, it is the case of Belfast competing on a world stage for the service of Emirates or equivalent.


NI has struggled to make a routes viable to Rome, Milan, Berlin, Gdansk, Leeds Bradford (ex BFS), Budapest, Venice etc. etc. and these are certainly much lower risk. I fail to see how these airlines will look at Belfast for a middle eastern route . Also considering a perfectly good alternative down the road that offers;


1. Lower APD
2. Significant transatlantic connectivity and US pre clearance
3. And an airport authority that has deep pockets ...


Furthermore, the airport MD has said that such a route will not happen anytime soon. Sorry to put a dampener on this discussion.

[mart901]

I'm told BCN is coming back, seasonally.

[GAZMO]

I would have assumed BCN would be back next year as seasonal. Any word on Malta coming back as seasonal?

[mart901]

Not heard, hopefully. They need to bring BCN back because VY's cheapest seats are selling out next summer rather rapidly, I would imagine because its a lot cheaper than flying to REU.

[GAZMO]

I assume that EZY will be putting their early summer flights on sale next month and expect BCN to start with three weekly increasing to four in peak season.

Wonder if they will introduce any new destinations ??

[mart901]

Here's hoping!

[justanotherloser]

"But I do wonder why our friends from south of the border seem so keen to talk BFS down? "

DUB will probably get close to 25 million pax this year. There's no logical reason for anyone to be talking anyone down.

FWIW, I think EK will open BFS, and sooner than we think. Once they've built out DUB to whatever target they have in mind, the next logical thing is to look to the next largest city - and particularly when a lot of traffic on the DUB service is coming from the North anyway.

DUB's relative success can be viewed in fact as an advantage to Belfast - it opens airline's eyes to opportunities on this Island that they may not have otherwise envisaged. I'd see Air Canada and Westjet in a similar vain to EK - BFS cant be far away from their thoughts either.

[mart901]

I can remember talking to a very wise old lady in the west of Ireland explaining her thoughts about why there was so much objections in Dublin to an airport opening in Knock and all the foggy boggy airstrip on a hillside jibes. The last thing anyone wants to see in DUB is anyone believing they can have a viable airport anywhere else on the island. Its something similar to the inner M25 mentality - everything else is a foggy wasteland, unworthy of anything except a roadway to London.

[madgav]

Pretty much echoes much of what I was thinking, which is why I'm bewildered about some dismissing it straight away.
I've assumed that they must be more knowledgable than I am, being just an engineer / PPL / fairly frequent NI traveller :confused:

With Emirates wanting to start 100 new cities in the next decade (and EK being EK who's to say that they won't meet or exceed that target?), do we really think that BFS won't be one of them?
What other unserved UK cities do we think they would look at before Belfast? Given that a mid east flight ex BFS would be exempt from APD?
(Those are genuine questions by the way)

As someone said all those new aircraft have to fly somewhere.
Will it happen in the next couple of years? Maybe not. But then again, maybe it will (BFS management said it would not happen this year if I remember correctly).

I also fail to see why NCL isn't a reasonable comparison:
- Second tier UK city
- Annual passenger demand about two thirds that of Belfast
- Has to compete with no less than THREE major airports within reasonable driving distance (going with the opinion held by some that 2 or more hours' drive is "just down the road"), all with significant ME3 presence.
- UA may be struggling there, albeit in a first limited season of operation?
- Yet EK appear to be well established and doing well (up 13% in July), one poster on the NCL thread (possibly optimistically) entertaining the possibility of a second daily?

As I say, all genuine questions :ok:

[mart901]

Also Belfast is bigger population wise than Newcastle. As has been mentioned before, any such route doesn't have to suddenly be daily or more, even 2 or 3 rotations a week is a starting point. Its only the same as the Newark route, last winter it ceased, this winter it will operate, there are many here in NI who rubbish the route on the grounds its too expensive before even checking the price. To me its a matter of principle, of trying to support local business, aviation, jobs etc. I do think BFS will get there, albeit slowly with more long haul, they seem to have a more forward looking attitude of late.

[Jamie2k9]

"But I do wonder why our friends from south of the border seem so keen to talk BFS down? "

DUB will probably get close to 25 million pax this year. There's no logical reason for anyone to be talking anyone down.

FWIW, I think EK will open BFS, and sooner than we think. Once they've built out DUB to whatever target they have in mind, the next logical thing is to look to the next largest city - and particularly when a lot of traffic on the DUB service is coming from the North anyway.

DUB's relative success can be viewed in fact as an advantage to Belfast - it opens airline's eyes to opportunities on this Island that they may not have otherwise envisaged. I'd see Air Canada and Westjet in a similar vain to EK - BFS cant be far away from their thoughts either.

Really?

If we base their UK operations on your logic we should see the following:

MAN (A380 x 3)* then they start at LPL or LBA
GLA (B777 x 2 will go B777/A380 x 3) then they will start at EDI
BHX (B777 x 3 will go B777/A380 x 3) then they will start EMA or BRS

* I know a fourth has been suggested in past

They have a lot of growing at DUB to added another daily service and increase B777 capacity to A380

Would never say they won't come to BFS but lets get some real prospective here it will not happen this decade.

Westjet is a possibility but a while off and Air Canada will never happen, it's Rouge at DUB and can't see them expanding outside major points in Europe. Their current UK operation is very seasonal outside LHR.

[Una Due Tfc]

IMO EK or TY will eventually turn up at BFS, whenever enough aircraft become available. Give it maybe 5-10 years in either case I would think.

[West Brit]

Dublin will always be the main airport on the island of island. However to suggest that EK 'won't happen this decade' is certainly a bold statement, and many on here will remember this!!
Canada will be back with several weekly flights peak season.
Florida will be back all summer as well.

[madgav]

They have a lot of growing at DUB to added another daily service and increase B777 capacity to A380

You are assuming they will want to have 3 x A380 at DUB before they will even look at BFS. We don't know that.
Belfast is quite well connected to other major airports for eastbound connections, be it with EK or other airlines, preferable to many rather than the 2 hour drive south. The question is, at what point do EK decide that it's worth opening BFS as a destination in its own right. We don't know that either.
But you're right, it may not be this decade. Or maybe it will.

As has been mentioned before, any such route doesn't have to suddenly be daily or more, even 2 or 3 rotations a week is a starting point. Its only the same as the Newark route, last winter it ceased, this winter it will operate, there are many here in NI who rubbish the route on the grounds its too expensive before even checking the price. To me its a matter of principle, of trying to support local business, aviation, jobs etc. I do think BFS will get there, albeit slowly with more long haul, they seem to have a more forward looking attitude of late.

This ↑↑

[Jamie2k9]

You are assuming they will want to have 3 x A380 at DUB before they will even look at BFS. We don't know that.
Belfast is quite well connected to other major airports for eastbound connections, be it with EK or other airlines, preferable to many rather than the 2 hour drive south. The question is, at what point do EK decide that it's worth opening BFS as a destination in its own right. We don't know that either.
But you're right, it may not be this decade. Or maybe it will.

They will add a third 777 before they look anywhere and most likely A380 in future whether it be next Autumn or a few years away.

Two things EK flying from BFS does not limit it to Belfast passengers and it will be as easy for many to travel to DUB as BFS.

Connections off Belfast-Dublin rail line could make it even easier in the very near future ;)

[madgav]

They will add a third 777 before they look anywhere and most likely A380 in future whether it be next Autumn or a few years away.I'm assuming you have knowledge that I do not so I will take your word for that (or let others debate it further). Either way this is EK we are talking about and 3 x 777 may not be too far away - what will they do after that? My point was that at some time in the future they are likely to look at BFS as an option.

it will be as easy for many to travel to DUB as BFS.For many/some, it already is. But for much of the most densely populated areas of the north, and even more so for those living in the north west and Donegal, it will never be.

[cuthere]

Mart, normally you talk a lot of sense. However, when comparing the population of Newcastle with Belfast, do a bit of research. The Tyneside Metropolitan Area has a population almost 200,000 more than its equivalent in Belfast. Add on the 330,000 who live in the Sunderland area and you have something comparable (only comparable) to Dublin. Add in the ease of access (Metro all the way to the airport from the city centre), proximity of Durham and many other towns/cities and the comparison becomes less relevant.

I agree that MAN and LBA are nearish; EDI is a pig from Newcastle.

As for EK at BFS. Why not? I'd use it. They'd have to tart up the international departures bit a fair amount, but surely any investment would be well worth it (and long overdue)?

[mart901]

Cuthere

Thanks for the compliment. I did think about that yes, having stayed around Tyneside last year I can see what your saying. But similarly you could say everything north of Belfast would be much easier access to BFS than DUB, although that's not colossal you can say Antrim, Ballymena, Derry-Londonderry etc etc all must be finding their way to DUB currently or connecting at LHR or somewhere

[owenc]

They will add a third 777 before they look anywhere and most likely A380 in future whether it be next Autumn or a few years away.

Two things EK flying from BFS does not limit it to Belfast passengers and it will be as easy for many to travel to DUB as BFS.

Connections off Belfast-Dublin rail line could make it even easier in the very near future ;)

Not everyone in Northern Ireland lives in/around Belfast. ;) ;)

[owenc]

Cuthere

Thanks for the compliment. I did think about that yes, having stayed around Tyneside last year I can see what your saying. But similarly you could say everything north of Belfast would be much easier access to BFS than DUB, although that's not colossal you can say Antrim, Ballymena, Derry-Londonderry etc etc all must be finding their way to DUB currently or connecting at LHR or somewhere

Where I live for the United States obviously Dublin is used but if people are going to Australia or Dubai alot of people will just fly to England and connect there. It's more convenient.

[madgav]

Where I live for the United States obviously Dublin is used but if people are going to Australia or Dubai alot of people will just fly to England and connect there. It's more convenient.Not sure where you live but BFS already has a direct link to the US :p:O
And there are plenty of connection options for westbound too.... but yes, that said a significant number of NI travellers are still using Dublin going to the US, presumably largely for cost reasons?
Yes I agree it makes little sense going east, where there are a lot of convenient connecting options that will bring NI pax back to their local airport (one or other of them) :D

[josechung]

I do live these BFS put down comments. Are we not allowed to be proud of our local airport? Is it wrong to have ambitions for it?

Anyway!

The DUB question has a few answers..

1. It has more destinations (I have to use it because of this)
2. Some travel agents have a natural bias towards it (see my post on trailfinders)
3. People seem to be OK with spending £20/£30 on petrol/bus fare to DUB to save maybe £50 on a return flight.

Our politicians haven't helped mush either (we need a train link to BFS). Hopefully the new owners will be better at working with them

[left rudder]

a rail link will never happen.
Translink are in the process of reducing services and capacity in an attempt to stem losses
The bus service is adequate and more flexible than rail


On a different tack the rumours on the Dublin 2 thread re Etihad reducing seats and frequency from DUB may offer some hope for BFS
A concerted effort and incentive by Stormont and BFS may convince Etihad to try an alternate strategy out of Ireland.

[Seljuk22]

I rather see TK than EK at BFS. They have smaller aircrafts and are willing to fly less than daily. Therefore it could work with a 3 or 4 weekly service to IST.

[flying officer kite]

Absolutely, Turkish are great for opening up new markets that the big boys can't justify. There are only two slight snags:


1 - Turkish don't offer any services to Oz / New Zealand (yet)


2 - IST is pretty much full these days, so unless they get more parking space, or the new replacement Istanbul airport opens they probably can't expand that much.


BFS is unlikely to ever get a rail connection. My friends in Translink don't think it would ever make profit. I think a good compromise could be to build a small halt in Templepatrick, so that train passengers coming down from the North Coast could step off and straight onto the 300 airport bus service, which could make a stop there on each run? What do you think? ;)

[Danmadole]

Translink are in the process of reducing services and capacity in an attempt to stem losses

Partially correct... not to stem losses, but to reflect the reduction in funding from government. The same government who would have to pay for a spur into the airport - so as you say...unlikely to happen!

[josechung]

Call me the eternal optimist ;)

[mart901]

Love it Jose ! Keep it positive

[owenc]

Not sure where you live but BFS already has a direct link to the US :p:O
And there are plenty of connection options for westbound too.... but yes, that said a significant number of NI travellers are still using Dublin going to the US, presumably largely for cost reasons?
Yes I agree it makes little sense going east, where there are a lot of convenient connecting options that will bring NI pax back to their local airport (one or other of them) :D

I know there is a flight from Belfast, I have used it before. But most of the time I have to use Dublin because it is cheaper, other times I want to go somewhere and just fly directly there, for example, say Atlanta it is easier to just drive to Dublin and go through preclearance and fly straight there.

If Belfast introduced one or two more routes to places other than New York there would be less reason to go via Dublin.

If I was just flying to New York I would never go via Dublin.

[owenc]

Absolutely, Turkish are great for opening up new markets that the big boys can't justify. There are only two slight snags:


1 - Turkish don't offer any services to Oz / New Zealand (yet)


2 - IST is pretty much full these days, so unless they get more parking space, or the new replacement Istanbul airport opens they probably can't expand that much.


BFS is unlikely to ever get a rail connection. My friends in Translink don't think it would ever make profit. I think a good compromise could be to build a small halt in Templepatrick, so that train passengers coming down from the North Coast could step off and straight onto the 300 airport bus service, which could make a stop there on each run? What do you think? ;)

The trains in Northern Ireland are appalling. It takes 2 hours to get to Belfast and in a car you can get there in an hour.

No one in their right mind would rely on those things to get to an airport.

[West Brit]

What is this pre-clearance at Dublin airport for US bound flights about? I flew BFS/Newark a couple of years back, I got off the plane, got in a queue, for what seemed like 10-15 minutes, went through passport control and got passport stamped then onto train. No different from arriving at Amsterdam. Would it have been worth my while driving 2 hours to Dublin to be guaranteed that at the other end there is never a queue?

[BFS BHD]

*'Provisional' July 2015 Stats*
Passengers Rolling Year: 4,159,393 +2.6
Passengers This Month: 470,740 +10.8

Domestic:
-Gatwick: .................44,187 +9
-Luton: ....................29,940 +30
-Stansted: ................26,781 +5
-Birmingham: ...........11,631 -7
-Bristol: ...................21,477 +5
-Edinburgh: ..............23,925 +22
-Glasgow: ................22,796 +16
-Jersey: ...................2,940 +26
-Liverpool: ................35,414 +1
-Manchester: .............17,990 +11
-Newcastle: ...............18,732 +16
.
International:
-Dubrovnik: ...............1,134 -1
-Split: ......................1,378 (New Route)
-Larnaca: ..................3,813 +82
-Bordeaux: ................2,356 +122
-Nice: ......................3,851 -5
-Paris: ......................8,093 -1
-Lourdes: ..................3,246 -14
-Corfu: .....................3,100 112
-Heraklion: ................2,971 -13
-Rhodes: ...................1,599 +21
-Zante: .....................1,374 (New Route)
-Pisa: .......................1,052 -7
-Rome: .....................2,477 (New Route)
-Venice: ....................252 (Cruise Flight)
-Verona: ...................1,353 +357
-Malta: .....................2,282 -14
-Amsterdam: .............11,935 +4
-Faro: .......................15,318 -1
-Alicante: ..................14,557 +3
-Barcelona: ................5,336 +3
-Ibiza: ......................7,182 -6
-Mahon: ....................3,261 -36
-Malaga: ...................14,757 +0
-Murcia: ....................3,843 +49
-Palma: ....................26,773 -5
-Reus: ......................8,357 -5
-Lanzarote: ...............8,194 +52
-Las Palmas: .............2,524 +72
-Tenerife: .................6,215 +9
-Keflavik: .................2,347 (New Route)
-Bodrum: .................1,668 -42
-Dalaman: ................7,542 -16
-Burgas: ...................4,088 +24
-Prague: ...................2,483 (New Route)
-Vilnius: ....................3,015 (New Route)
-Katowice: .................2,727 (New Route)
-Krakow: ...................3,940 (New Route)
-Sharm El Sheikh: .......1,445 -13
-Las Vegas: ................622 (New Route)
-Newark: ...................9,403 -4
-Orlando: ...................4,360 +251

[mart901]

Wizzair

By my calculations ;

Vilnius 83% LF
Katowice 94% LF

Wow!

[BFS BHD]

Nice loads for both routes! Surprised Katowice isn't 3 weekly and new routes hasn't been announced yet! Anyone heard if they are planning on adding anything else anytime soon?

[mart901]

No Katowice routes are on sale for summer 16 yet so you never know they may add an extra rotation, perhaps for holiday periods. The loads certainly bode well.

[madgav]

@west brit:
I must agree, it's not a deal breaker for me. Some like to have the queueing done before the flight I guess. For me the greater hassle is a 2 hour drive home, knackered and jetlagged, after the return flight!
But that's the beauty of having the BFS-EWR route. It isn't just a direct link to NYC, it's a convenient one stop connection to a couple of hundred destinations on the other side of the pond. Negating the need for NI pax to use less convenient airports like LHR/LGW/MAN/DUB/etc.

Nice looking set of figures for July all in all. Wizzair must be pleased :)

[GAZMO]

Yes good results for Wizz, even AMS and BCN have increased with direct competition from BHD

[owenc]

@west brit:
I must agree, it's not a deal breaker for me. Some like to have the queueing done before the flight I guess. For me the greater hassle is a 2 hour drive home, knackered and jetlagged, after the return flight!
But that's the beauty of having the BFS-EWR route. It isn't just a direct link to NYC, it's a convenient one stop connection to a couple of hundred destinations on the other side of the pond. Negating the need for NI pax to use less convenient airports like LHR/LGW/MAN/DUB/etc.

Nice looking set of figures for July all in all. Wizzair must be pleased :)

Well it's a dealbreaker for me. I hate going through immigration in America, the officers are rude and grumpy, in Dublin you are straight through with no hassle. We went through in August and were barely asked any questions.

I also couldn't be bothered standing queuing when i'm going to go on a connecting flight.

Belfast is ok as I said earlier but the savings for a family add up.

I am surprised that they have added a winter service, the figures are declining and will only decline more when Virgin arrives. I figure they have been given a financial incentive.

[josechung]

Brilliant figures for Wizz. I flew with them myself in July and was very impressed by the product. Brilliant figures all round for BFS.

As for pre clearance - never tried it. However I have never had to wait long to go through immigration in EWR on my yearly trip.

There has only been a small drop in EWR figures, so it's far from doomed. What we will hopefully see is an uplift due to the public now knowing that UA are committed to year round flight.

Plus virgin isn't cheap. The novelty could wear off and people will happily go back to an EWR connection.

[owenc]

Yes the prices offered by Virgin prices are pathetic but people pay them so they will continue to charge high.

[SealinkBF]

I'd take non stop over a change any day.

[madgav]

If conveniently available from my local airport, yes. Well, with one other exception. I've come to dislike very long flights, if a direct flight is 10-12 hours or more, I like a break.

Re EWR figures, would I be right in saying that's a load factor of 90% (assuming flight operated every day)? Hardly too shabby with VS offering Orlando direct, if at a premium.

[stab3.5up]

What's up with the Air Canada that just diverted into BFS. Looks like it was off the coast of Donegal and did I u turn

[GAZMO]

Due to depart BFS at 17.00 hours.....maybe medical emergency?

[owenc]

If conveniently available from my local airport, yes. Well, with one other exception. I've come to dislike very long flights, if a direct flight is 10-12 hours or more, I like a break.

Re EWR figures, would I be right in saying that's a load factor of 90% (assuming flight operated every day)? Hardly too shabby with VS offering Orlando direct, if at a premium.

I'm the same, I like 6 hour flights, any longer and I start to get restless which is why I prefer a stop over.

However, If it's far flung destination like Las Vegas I would rather just get the flight out of the road.

[eastern wiseguy]

Concerning the pre clearance.

I have used it on virtually every trip back to the U.S. The advantage is that upon arrival you are deemed a domestic passenger. No customs ,no immigration,no standing in line.

For those who say that there isn't normally a line on arrival or that it isn't a big deal I suggest that they have been fortunate. Before I got my "green card" I once stood in line at Chicago for TWO hours after arriving from London. It was a close run thing for my connection.

There is a price difference,but,more importantly (for me) the CHOICE of destinations from Dublin is greater. It is much easier ,and generally cheaper , for me to get a connection from Chicago to home rather than Newark.

Mind you a DIRECT flight from Toronto might just make me reconsider BFS .

[True Blue]

Now that EI are part of the BA group, what are the chances of Bfs making BA a really serious offer to transfer from Bhd to Bfs for the Lhr service. Only this time, BA don't have to worry about competition from another carrier entering Bhd again if they move, there is no other airline to pick this up. Even if BA didn't move, they could make Bhd really reduce their fees and do a lot of damage to Bhd.

TB

[mart901]

BA are operating out of BHD because they want to, it fits their business model to have a city location where they can attract business customers, much like why EI moved there, to attract higher yielding business pax. BFS can make all the offers they like I don't think BA are for turning somehow. It's the same principle as KLM selecting BHD. Just look at BFS, what image does it give, EZY, LS, charter, its like the LTN of NI. Not that there's anything wrong with that but is BA or EI anywhere to be seen in LTN or STN? No.

[True Blue]

Mart

so you think if Bfs offered them an unbelievable deal they would turn it down? These high yield business pax you refer to would have no option but to use Bfs as it would probably be the only connection to Lhr out of here. But it also would put BA in the position of maybe getting further reductions out of Bhd, making life difficult for them. Not sure BA would reject it that quickly, apart from anything else, they probably would have to consider any offer from shareholder point of view.

TB

[josechung]

From what I can recall, the EI LHR flights from BFS were pretty successful. Lack of business was not why EI moved to BHD.