Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[Headcone]

All is quiet on the western front with the ALAEA PIA.
Have they accepted the 3% pay rise and are now off to convince their followers to accept it?
;)

[Redstone]

Time will tell as to weather the hold fire order was a stroke of genius, or the bend over before the reaming. The time line now puts any possible action at earliest the 7th Feb, after the 380 announcement............
This could be the one defining decision in this whole campaign.

[Redstone]

Hate to burst your bubble Mendaero, but from what I've heard there is no agreement on anything of substance. It looks like even a meagre 3% is going to cost, in kind.

[sky rocket]

definition of an employee (written by the ALAEA),
This clause has to go. It doesn't matter who wrote it, It will always be twisted out of context and used used against us. As for 3%, I would only accept that if the board accepted it for themselves. The people on the coal face make the company what it is, not the board.

[Redstone]

1st Feb is a Friday and you must give 3 clear "working days" notice, that puts a notice served on Friday the 1st for action as of one minute past midnight Thursday morning the 7th Feb.

As far as any "creative pay deals" don't hold your breath. There is only one way we are going to advance our claims and that is through action.

Members must not fall into a false sense of security, we are no closer now than we were two weeks ago. Steel yourselves.

[Redstone]

Why cant we give notice before the 1st?

Because we agreed not to in the comission.

[PIOT Bord]

Whether the 1st or 7th for PIA to start, bring it on.
However, I disagree with the view that management have us bent over anything. It's their strategy that is failing. Bloomburg's study that found we are 10% more productive than Singapore; The blocking of their attempt to bring in foreign labour; The lack of scabs that have been willing to sign up; The awareness by the public of a management culture of staff shortages across the entire business; The commissioning of market research into the public attitude towards management.
It's the above, combined with a share price that is beating the market down even though they have announced higher record profits, that has management concerned. They are trying to make sure that we are not in a position to bend them over anything.
Good work so far ALAEA Exec, don't take a backward step!

[Millet Fanger]

Notice should be given to start PIA on the 1st Feb.

We have given Qantas enough time to negotiate a deal if they had wanted one. Don't forget, "The EBA has to be concluded by February because QE has important decisions to be made re A380 and A330". Or was that statement just as valid as "This deal looks like a good deal to me"? (MH, KM and co)

[Oh Please]

Good work so far ALAEA Exec, don't take a backward step!Is this the same executive?
http://www.cnet.com.au/wireless/0,239028844,339285323,00.htm

God help us...

[upsidefront]

MMM, Bring down the red Q!!! Make them beg.
Hit them hard. Now it's our turn to to show them.

[Bush Pig]

F**k the 380, f**k the 330, f**k it all. Long live the legacy fleet.

[wingers]

Gentlemen, i hope we settle this

i am reliably imformed that if we do not, things will never be the same again, i am asking all like members to be aware.....i am not a troll....i implore the ALAEA to be vigilant, please do not stuff up

[company_spy]

i am reliably imformed that if we do not, things will never be the same again

In what way? What have you been told?

[Sunfish]

i am reliably imformed



He is just spreading fear uncertainty and doubt like he always does. Same handiwork visible on the A380 thread.

[rudderless1]

i am reliably imformed that if we do not, things will never be the same again
Yes, thats true, for the first time in a long time LAME's will have proven they have a backbone, and the company better take notice. Bring it on, I am sick of my inflation/efficiency payrise paying managers bonus's and undeserved mega payrises.

I'd be happy with 1/6th of Cox's payrise and no bonus on my pidly income! But the again I not a greedy :yuk: psychopath.

[Redstone]

Gentlemen, i hope we settle this

i am reliably imformed that if we do not, things will never be the same again, i am asking all like members to be aware.....i am not a troll....i implore the ALAEA to be vigilant, please do not stuff up

If we let this EBA get rammed through in it's current wording then I am telling you now, things will definatly never be the same again for Qantas LAMEs, and it's not good. Now if you are in fact an operational LAME you should understand this and be outraged at the audacity of those who seek to impose such conditions. If you are infact an agent provocateur or a company stooge then you allready know this and are by association in agreeance to all the claims made by the company.

"The ALAEA" is the sum total of ALL it's members. Hold fast, suck it up and don't shoot untill you see the whites of their eyes.

[another superlame]

It is all smoke and mirrors. QF are just buying time it is a favourite tactic of theirs. The ALAEA might have one agenda but they haven't consulted the troops. I have said before if you want to be successful in this EBA keep focused on what you are fighting for and don't let the company or ALAEA cloud your vision.
I don't think the union is being as transparent as you think they are.

As for Wingers he must be a stooge,or he has other agendas himself

[HotDog]

Quoting Mr. Purvinas:
"In this case, we're talking both engines carking it at same time. At that stage the aircraft is tilted at a certain altitude so when the fuel moves back into the tanks, it may expose the fuel pumps to water which is contained in the tanks," he said.

A small amount of water is not uncommon in fuel, Purvinas said.

"When you're putting in a hundred thousand kilos of fuel, there is a small component of water but if that all rises to the top of the fuel tank is exposed to the fuel-pump intakes at same time, that is when you may have a problem at the same time on both engines," he said.


Well I guess Mr. Purvinas with 20 years of avionic experience does not need to have any knowledge of the rules of gravity and the S.G. of fuel.:confused:

[another superlame]

And being Mr Purvinas who are we mere mortals to question his comments

[rudderless1]

if the water "could" float to the top it would not have been sucked in by the pumps would it! How often do we argue the accuracy of news reports on this forum? How often are pumps installed at the top of tanks?
I am sure over the 20 years he worked on the ramp and seen or done fuel checks he would know where to look for the fuel.

Hotdog, maybe you should learn where it is sucked from and why the attitude of the aircraft could play a roll after fuel had settled for some time and not so quickly take news reports as gospel.

Jet pumps should remove water as it settles though. Once again I am sure there is many slices of swiss that would have to line up for this theory to be right!

[rudderless1]

I don't think the union is being as transparent as you think they are.

Superman, can you enlighten us why?

[another superlame]

From what I am hearing the ALAEA isn't doing much consulting with its members during this 3 week show of faith. Surely you would think they would keep everyone informed of their progress, so that the members know they are still fighting for what the members want and not what the association officials want.

[HotDog]

Rudderless,

Hotdog, maybe you should learn where it is sucked from and why the attitude of the aircraft could play a roll after fuel had settled for some time and not so quickly take news reports as gospel.

I know precisely where the fuel boost pumps are situated in the tanks and fully understand the effects of attitude. However, unless Mr Purvinas has been misquoted by the press, he is misinformed. Water does not float on top of fuel. SG of water=1.0, SG of A1 at the temperature you can expect after a long flight probably 0.82.

[Headcone]

Ahhh.

I am starting to feel it in my water that the executive are about to capitulate and go on bended knee to its constituency and ask them to accept the deal that they have been offered.:(

Like many before them they may have succumbed to the greater powers, and defeated in battle go with bowed head to their army.:ooh:

Will they ever see their enemies float by in the river, or will their enemies sit high on the hill and smile down upon them, satisfied that another battle has been won?:O

Ohhh.

The criticisms of past executives…………….were they merely lip service???:rolleyes:

Are the current leaders consistant with the past leaders???????:eek:

Make your own judgement, as I have.:ok:

:sad:

[rudderless1]

but if that all rises to the top of the fuel tank this is why its all so stupid and obviously a misquote, yet you jumped on it. There would be more a problem sucking air I would think if taking stupidity to the nth
The pumps aren't there and water doesn't float on fuel. Most I suggest know this would be a journalist error. :rolleyes:

[rudderless1]

Headcone, keep your chin up, my waters have never felt better. Can you hold back on the OT for another week or let me guess you never even considered it or couldn't give a red rats bum.

I see plenty of info, if you choose to read it that is. I don't think the current exec asks if its ok by QF anymore. I don't see them folding either unless directed by the members, are the members happy with QF now?

Lets wait and see, I think you've called to early unless of course you are spreading FUD for them!:(

[YOSHI]

My Two Cent!

Although it seems there is a lack of info from ALAEA at the moment, they are trying to not give away their position. That is to be expected.

Remember, regardless what may be offered, it is up to the members to decide whether to accept any offer that is put forward!!

If no agreement can be reached, the final option for QF is to close down E&M. I know there are those who would find this more acceptable than agreeing to what , so far , ammounts to a pay cut.

[Talkwrench]

Yoshi, there are more than a few that agree with your sentiments, although I'm sure the majority don't particularly want to see E&M closed down. Let's see what February brings. Both parties have agreed to continue negotiations per Commissioner Watson's recommendation, at least until 1 February.

[Talkwrench]

Headcone, I will make my own judgement when the EBA is complete and certified in the AIRC. Until then, the executive has my complete support as the democratically elected executive should have. As far as I can see, the executive is following the direction of the majority of the membership. If you refuse to see that, you are either not a member of the association or you are in the minority. Which is it?

[HotDog]

Rudderless, mate you missed my point entirely. Read my original post on this subject. I quoted a published statement from your ALEA executive secretary Mr. Purvinas in a UK newspaper, who is of the opinion that fuel is heavier than water and could have been the cause of the BA038 prang. I know this is off topic but the only reason I brought it up is, that I would be somewhat concerned if Mr. Purvinas was my associaton's executive secretary.:rolleyes:

[QF22]

Now we know he has DEFINITELY been misquoted ! ! !

[The Mr Fixit]

Corrections and Observations

SP - Federal Secretary of the ALAEA :}

Whether misquoted or not we're all aware of fuel/water issue and yes it does only go to the bottom of tanks that's why you do drains at lowest points in tanks. :8

Did you have a crack because he's 115 pounds wringing wet and could be blown away in a strong wind :E

[chemical alli]

if you want to add your two cents into the myriad of spotters and armchair experts,re the ba 777 incident then do so on the thread in tech log.as for media quotes who ever really believes the daily rag.

now please stay on topic ,(WHICH IS PIA AND THE ALAEA).
having walked about twenty feet and approached my union delegate and actually asked what is going on (which really wasnt that difficult ,and maybe some of the so called stirrers should do),the answer i recieved was very informative and that there is another meeting today.

[Rubber Dick]

The Rubber Dick is back!!!!! :}:}:}

TID EDIT:

Oh no you're not!:}

[HotDog]

OK fellows, thanks for the correction. Mr.Purvinas is indeed the Federal Secretary of ALAEA. Following are his comments made to ZDNet.com.au which was copied by the UK Daily Mail.

However ALAEA's federal secretary, Steven Purvinas, an avionics engineer with 20 years experience, contacted members of the organisation who had worked on the Boeing 777. He told ZDNet.com.au that of all Boeing's aircraft, the 777 is most likely to be affected by wireless or radio frequency interference.

"The 777 is far more electronically capable and reliant on it than its predecessors such as the Boeing 747. If wireless interference hasn't been ruled out as a possible cause, this aircraft would be a prime candidate for it," said Purvinas.

According to the members of the ALAEA who have worked on Boeing 777 aircraft, but declined to be interviewed, Boeing has taken extra measures to secure the systems and wiring that connect those systems.

The engineers claimed that although the 777 relies more on its electronic components, its wiring bundles are heavily shielded against radiation and stray currents that might affect the integrity of the system.

A more likely cause of the aircraft's throttle systems to fail at that stage of descent, according to Purvinas, is dirty fuel from Beijing, where it had refuelled before heading to London's Heathrow Airport.

"In this case, we're talking both engines carking it at same time. At that stage the aircraft is tilted at a certain altitude so when the fuel moves back into the tanks, it may expose the fuel pumps to water which is contained in the tanks," he said.

A small amount of water is not uncommon in fuel, Purvinas said.

"When you're putting in a hundred thousand kilos of fuel, there is a small component of water but if that all rises to the top of the fuel tank and is exposed to the fuel-pump intakes at same time, that is when you may have a problem at the same time on both engines," he said.

[stoned philosopher]

Repeat:

..now please stay on topic ,(WHICH IS PIA AND THE ALAEA).


Stoned P :zzz:

[HotDog]

Well actually, this discussion is on topic. Steve Purvinas is the federal secretary of the ALAEA and he is heavily involved with your PIA. I have no doubt his negotiating skills are better than his grasp of physics.:E

[domo]

ok hotdog you made your point 3 times, now can we get on with the topic pia any updates

[Bumpfoh]

I think domo has summed it up, back on topic.

I would hate to think of you as a troll which I am sure you are not.:ok:

BTW

Woodsy aint no rocket scientist either!:E

[HotDog]

Not another word, I promise! Hope you guys get what you are after.:ok:

[Short_Circuit]

Why has Quantarse been stalling,
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23102761-23349,00.html
PIA NOW !!!!!!

[Flugbegleiter]

I'd love to know what's happening with you guys and all of this industrial action. There seemed to be a lot of noise for a while, but it is looking now like it has all fizzled. I was looking forward to seeing a group like you lot take on the company.

I know a lot of "stuff" is probably confidential, but all talk of LAME industrial action has almost been forgotten amongst cabin crew.

Interestingly enough, there have still been some very significant delays:
see QF5 24 Jan and QF5 26 Jan, both delayed for engineering reasons, I believe. Though I doubt this is as a result of any PIA - more likely due to years of neglected maintenance? (And a lack of spare aircraft).

[Short_Circuit]

I am very concerned about being diligent and following the AMM with everything I do.
I would like you guys to help me in a problem I have in completing my Check 2 routine.
We need to replenish the spare lamps box, but I can't find a AMM procedure to do the task to sign off to.
How can I sign the Chk 2 without doing so IAW the AMM? Please Help.
As there is PIA about to happen, how can I certify for a simple task without a procedure? ;)

[knuckledragger1]

Don't need an amm reference, use the 744chk2 amplification, it supercedes Boeing AMM:hmm:

You must be from Sydney to be checking the spare lamps?????:rolleyes:

[Black Hands]

Knuckledragger1, I see you live very close to the Maralinga nuclear testing site... Hasn't affected you much at all... :}

Amidst the fiasco that currently faces QF Engineering, we still have "brothers" whose depth of vision extends to comments like that...
Unbelieveable..:ugh::ugh:

[knuckledragger1]

Keep cool blackhands,

wouldn't want a 'brother' brought before the kangaroo court for unwarranted maintenance or servicing....:bored:

[Short_Circuit]

Thanks so much for your kind words and advise.

[PIOT Bord]

In an attempt to avoid PIA, I hear that GD has bypassed QF's negotiating committee. Does anyone have any details?

[SCHAIRBUS]

Sounds like his style.

[Short_Circuit]

If GD did as rumored, he obviously did not say enough to ease the situation.

GD try again and use the words 5%.....

PS Submit PIA N O W ...

[Bumpfoh]

Supposedly an audience with GD, JB and other board level members for the ALAEA at the direction of the Commish.:D

Should be interesting if so! :E

[Big M]

Supposedly an audience with GD, JB and other board level members for the ALAEA at the direction of the Commish



mmmmmm, the Commish knows through his experience of past cases that've been heard (basically, fairly switched on to the way things work on the ground in LAME world) that the LAME's can grind the network to a halt before you can say "chocks in." Bare in mind this is without any form of 'action' - just following company procedures and Commission directions. :ouch:

He also knows that approval has been given by the AIRC to engage in protected Industrial Action by the LAME's. (88% in favour if I recall) This will most certainly turn the schedule into a circus. :(

He knows that the 'little men' who have been on the QF negotiating committee up till now have played 'bully boys' and recognises that the LAME's haven't taken the bait/threats/bribe/fear campaign and are a united force. To be fair to the 'little tough men' of the QF committee, they have been doing as instructed. It hasn't worked. A blood bath is on the cards for the airlines schedule and revenue/profits so the commish has brokered a deal with the upper levels-probably at least in an effort to make them realise what sort of power the LAME's can wield. I'm sure the likes of Oldmeadow, cocks, harris, vincent have just been passing upwards what 'needs' to be heard. i.e "don't worry, we'll get 'em, they'll fold, we'll string them along and get the deal over the line" etc, etc, etc.:yuk:

The commish is probably beginning to regret giving approval for the PIA in the first place - unlike GD, JB and the other board creepers, he knows that a few well penned entries in a tech log and DRR coupon can stop any and all red rats from flying. (quite legally, no 'action' , safety first, etc ) The procedures and crap that ACS have created will be turned against them quite legally and without recourse in the AIRC or anywhere alse. No matter how many 'strikebreakers' in balaclava's you can get your hands on, it won't make a dent.:=

For those 'in the know' just look at the manpower required to 'follow company procedures' to open the eng cowls on a 73 or 76. Any log item or 'suspected' leak/investigation will require full lockout of flap/slats, thrust reversers etc, correct stands, harnesses, printouts, etc. Restoration will require duplicate inspections from both trades and on and on it goes. All legal and SAFE per D cocks directives. Hours of work and paperwork added for each transit.

They will only know what hit them when their bonus is denied. :{

For those who are going to jump in and say "But shouldn't you always be doing everything correctly and as per the rules, you blokes are immoral and only follow rules when you want, isn't that unsafe" Well, we're the ones who make a million judgement calls every day, taking into account safety, passenger comfort/inconvenience, safety, cost, safety, schedule, safety, fatigue, safety, skill/experience, safety, parts issues, safety, on-going sched MEL requirements/cost, safety etc, etc, etc.

Just the same as all of you have pulled up in a 'No Stopping' zone in your car. Why is it a no stopping zone? Because it is unsafe to stop there. However you've probably used your judgement (whether right or wrong) to take the decision to stop in one. It's 3 in the morning, haven't seen another car or pedestrian in hours at this location and i'll only be stopping for 10 seconds. I bet though if a copper jumped out and booked you, you'd scream blue murder. It may seem 'unreasonable' but tough luck!Thing is though is that the copper is 'right' and so will all the LAME's be when it comes to it. You thank and trust the copper to use his judgment/good sense every other time and that's how we, the engineers, keep the planes a comin' and a goin'.

For those who harp on about the 'poor travelling' public - suggest that their letter of disapproval to QF starts with the following,

Dear Sir/Madam

All my flights with your airline in the months of February and March were late -some 3-4 hours, some up to 24. It has come to my attention that engineering was the cause of all these delays. I commend you for putting safety first but suggest you increase the budget that you allocate to the engineering side of your business and if this includes increasing the amount of remuneration of your valued engineer's, then I suggest you take these steps as I will be taking my business elswhere.

Your's Faithfully

XXXX


Be cool everyone

:ok:

[Talkwrench]

Well written post Big M. I agree wholeheartedly. Lets see how the cards fall today at the meeting...

[Clipped]

Well said Big M.

If only 'that M' thought along those lines, we could possibly raise the QE carcass from the ashes.

I'm only dreaming, that line of thought would only be contemplated by a service outlet selling hamburgers - M.

[company_spy]

Talking directly to Dixon is a waste of energy. Bring it on I say, do your job and bury them in the excrement they have created. All bans on from the 1st, no mucking about, all. For those who are now having second thoughts, you voted, it is done, grow a spine. We will get an acceptable out come if we stick together.

[Short_Circuit]

I'm with you CS lets do it!

[Short_Circuit]

Is it on or what?:)

[Headcone]

Company Spy,

I fully agree with you. These talks with GD have taken place before and amounted to an outcome of 3%.

If you ever hope to achieve more it will take more than this.

Good luck in your quest.

;)

[another superlame]

I still say it is all smoke and mirrors while they train their strikebreakers. Stay focused and get ready for a bumpy ride if you really want 5%.
I was also told you are fighting about the new clause to do with overflow work going to Malaysia.
That is just Avalon all over again. Remember Avalon started as overflow until it became the Centre for Excrement and then Sydney Heavy got a huge shafting without a hint of help from the glory boys of ACS and the like.

[Redstone]

Another Stupidlame, you are wrong in so many ways.............

[another superlame]

Please Redstone tell me why I am so wrong.
Are blinded by your own naivety to the Big Kangaroo?

[MILSPEC]

Big M, I don't like your choice of tag BUT we all need to have the same attitude. Follow the AMM and the Local Proceedures and we won't need any PIA. It's that simple brothers.:ugh:

[domo]

got an email today feedback meeting at the rowers friday 1600 and 1815 you got to be off shift to attend(not a payed meeting) see you there

[Annulus Filler]

I'll be sitting right beside you domo.........What meeting are you going to be at????????

[Redstone]

Hmmm, meeting Friday, a call to arms???

[domo]

I believe if a settlement deal had been done it would be a paid meeting so i think its a what next boys meeting.

[blubak]

are all the members of the alaea going to be informed of what is actually happening or do we go on guessing like we have been since the last known meeting between alaea exec and gd/jb. think its time for someone to update us!!

[another superlame]

Its all smoke and mirrors. They are just delaying things until they announce JHAS as the A380 winners

[PIOT Bord]

While it's good to have "feedback" meetings, I understand why EBA information/strategy has not been broadcast. My ALAEA rep has answered most questions when asked.

I would assume it is now time to take action. We have voted, we have seen the commish, we have been patient. Qantas does not want to play ball. Bring it on!!!!

N.B. I note Jetstar pilot's have knocked back there EBA offering. All is not well within the Qantas Group!

[Short_Circuit]

I agree, send us all a notice of what is going on, or not, and continue on with
the PIA notification as we all voted on way back a few months ago if there
is nothing worthy of consideration.

[chemical alli]

since this is not a paid meeting ,i suggest that it will be a report back and see what avenue to take next style.remember 81% voted in favour of pia action.which included o/t bans,secondment bans and no higher duties.time has been afforded to both parties to meet, discuss and come to some sort of agreement.one can only hope this has happened.
if it has not,then the only option left to the lames is to envoke all three pia immediately and dig in,no more time wasting meetings 15 months is enough.

[PIOT Bord]

Are there other meetings planned for other states? The email I saw only mentioned the Sydney meetings?

[sky rocket]

They can't refuse back pay. One of the last clauses in EBA 7 says that the new agreement will commence on the first pay period after 31 Dec 2006. So any pay rise will be effective from then.

[Short_Circuit]

No back-pay, you've stuffed that by dragging the negotiations on "too long".

No "sign-on bonus", that was a once-off for the pilots

No extra % for superannuation, that was a once-off offer for the ASU, but we may yet still offer it to the TWU.



They can stick that stuff you know where!

[busboy330]

A rumor I heard was that a 3% wage rise for a level 13, as a dollar figure, would be passed on to all grades. Meaning that lower levels would get a comparatively greater than 3% increase in wages.

[Short_Circuit]

Any reports on THE Meeting today? :confused:

[division1]

One can only guess what was said at the managers phone
hookup, but the word is an inprinciple agreement has been
made, details TBA.
So speculation and leakage from qf put a smile on about
60% of the faces briefed, especially it seems for lower level
lames and those stuck in the grading level system with a
license they are not being paid for.
Backpay, super and travel grade fiddles topped it up.
oh, nearly forget the 3%, lol.
Some quick calculations gave an initial raise in salary of
between 4.5% to 14% depending on individual circumstances.

The official real offer will be disclosed monday, so they say.

[Clipped]

Yeh, heard today 3% plus sweetners.

Which will mean 1% - 5% depending on current grade, regrade and super plus a priority upgrade on staff travel.

Though it sounds immediately enticing, some guys will get very little, some guys get much more but MOST will get something in between. But remember that this is a once of in a 3 year agreement, meaning the same increase does not apply at 1/1/09 .. it's only 3% from there onwards.

But the objective of the Executive was to get more than 3% for the majority of LAMEs and they have succeeded there, but Q has also won in having pleased a majority of LAMEs - but not all.

Will that be enough to get this agreement over the line?

[MILSPEC]

I believe it was a 4 year deal.
Whats the word on the Super deal? Anyone know more?:oh:

[Headcone]

The cracks seem to be showing in the armour now.

Have you capitulated?

Do we need to get the cowboy boot wearing crusader to come and appease the troops and convince them that this is a good deal?

Guys you could have done better than this had you persisted.

OHHHHHHH well better luck next time.

:uhoh:

[knuckledragger1]

F**K THIS BULLS**T

PIA NOW ! ! !

5% or Nothing gets off the ground.

:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*

[Bumpfoh]

Lets wait for the detail and take a deep breath in the mean time.:ugh:

There are many other ways other than 1 X 5 or 5 X 1 that equals 5, like say 3 plus 2 for example.

Hope that's not too deep for you.:ok:

[dr skydrol]

I would have accepted 0% in return of ridding us of this current failing management.:confused: When I did my apprenticeship if you failed tech or was a druggo they sent you to EOC. Now these idiots are running Qf engineering. God help us.

[knuckledragger1]

Imagine An army of ONE, multiplied by 1600 LAME's

You might as well kiss your 1.4b profit goodbye.

[Talkwrench]

Re: post #86: ‘Guys you could have done better than this had you persisted.’ Headcone, the EBA is not certified yet. It appears that you have some inside info on how we can do better if we persist. Can you please pass this information on to the ALAEA executive so they can act on it? Are you a member of the ALAEA or even a LAME? Where are you getting your inside info from? Thanks for any assistance.

[knuckledragger1]

I am a LAME of One (or 2, or 1600, ...),

I am a LAME of One - A LAME in the Qantas Airways army.

For years I was a loyal soldier in Hudson Fysh's army. Now I fight my own war.

I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere beancounter's fodder.

QANTAS used to exhibit labour leadership. Now QANTAS exploits legal loopholes.

QANTAS used to enjoy my JUDGEMENT. Now QANTAS suffers my COMPLIANCE.

I am a LAME of One.

I used to save QANTAS more than a thousand Hours of delay; finding the best MEL, getting involved and engaged, Staying back or coming in when the rosters were wrong, skimping during daily checks, adjusting my smokos for best utilisation, being smart and giving QANTAS every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "whatever whenever".

I used to call in defects on the radio, so that the parts required would be ready at the gate. Now, QANTAS will find the technical log write-up when they look in the handover.

I used to try to fix defects on the go, now I sit back and watch as the technical log hold items pile up.

I used to come in sick and work. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst days of the month.

I am a LAME of One.

I used to shut down the APU at the earliest possible moment. Now the cleaners and caterers enjoy extreme comfort.

I used to let the minutes of delay affect my judgement. I still do.

I used to cover mistakes by QANTAS management. Now I watch them unfold.

I used to hustle to ensure an on-time departure, to make QANTAS the best. Now I don't, because I realise QANTAS can never be the best with the current beancounters.

I used to call Maintenance Watch for Advice, to head off delays. Now I wait until departure minus 30 minutes for an REA (Request for Engineering Advice).

I'm on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not
contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron).

I am a one-man wrecking crew - a LAME of One.

My mission used to be to make QANTAS rich.

Now it's to make QANTAS pay.

When QANTAS Retrenches more LAMEs than QANTAS employs apprentices, - I will make QANTAS pay.

When QANTAS under-staff bases and over-work LAMEs to keep LAMEs undergraded, glass ceilinged, or downtrodden - I will make QANTAS pay.

When customers are delayed boarding system wide, because transit time is reduced and Maintenance checks are skimped - I will make QANTAS pay.

When QANTAS force AMEs, who have waited years to become LAMEs, to be AMEs forever- I will make QANTAS pay.

When they ask QANTAS LAMEs to show leadership and discretion , and then deny LAMEs CPI pay Equality - I will make QANTAS pay.

When QANTAS call ex Heavy maintenance LAMEs in for the strikebreaking, just to mess with them again after retrenching them - I will make QANTAS pay.

When QANTAS constantly violate the letter and spirit of our EBA - an EBA that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make QANTAS pay.

The ALAEA negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me.

Are you listening?

This mercenary LAME has a lot of years left with QANTAS; how long can QANTAS afford to keep me bitter?

I'm not looking for clauses in a contract,

I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for QANTAS again.

Until then, I am a LAME of One…And I am not alone!

[knuckledragger1]

Post this on the dunny wall if you have the balls,

and

by the way

F**k you all you scabbing overtime c**nts

:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[thosecotos]

Knuckledragger,

Please don't ever apply for a job over our way (VB) if you decide to cut ties with the Q. I don't know how you get out of bed in the morning with so much baggage weighing you down.

[LAMEA380]

Why dont you pin your own comments up so and let the rest of the world know who you are you neanderthal, you should not be allowed near an an airport let alone pretend to be a LAME, perhaps you should migrate to North Korea or Burma, they like your type in those countries.

[Short_Circuit]

Knuckledragger1
There are a lot of QF boys who know where you are coming from, being driven to this place by constant floggings by useless management. They have created this mess and don't know how to fix it, just outsource the problem to someone else.
Its time someone fixed the problem. :cool:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I mean, get behind the ALAEA, get a decent EBA (don't know what is on the table today) running and continue to fight for our survival and that of Qantas Engineering.

[domo]

Very impressed with the union they have dealt with the important issues such as the running down of maintenance in australia and lack of training. We voted to give the Executive the mandate to get a better result and use P.I.A. to that means. now if the Executive endorse this eba and we vote it down what are we going to do then, I was not a big fan of the Executive when they were elected I thought they were hot headed and spoiling for a fight now I believe they can work with managent to improve the company for employees and shareholders

Knuckeldragger you dont seem to want to get this eba up, some qantas junior management dont want it to get up either, get my drift.

[knuckledragger1]

Domo you are a stooge,

Why don't you go back to Japan?

or were you shafted there?

I sense a disillusioned company man?

Hard to take isn't it,

once being a loyal Qantas soldier

then the generals - sorry beancounters sell you out,

makes you feel foolish, a little angry perhaps?

maybe its time to stop patching the holes with ricepaper and let it all hang out.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[FCMC]

I am an LAME of One

Great post Knuckledragger and so true. This will take years to sort out and get back to normal if at all. The damage has been done.Can anyone actually tell me what M & DC have actually achieved for the company over the years.They have only broken everything to no real advantage.

Yes I too really wanted some stopworks. I have the money to cover it but SP must consider the global view of the membership who have many families and mortgages. A brilliant job guys and thank goodness they are running the show rather than the previous executives.

Well Hello! those DMMs in SYD & BNE that left the association in anticipation of PIA. That wasn't very clever was it. We all know who you are. Oh and the Boys at ADL ITB we know about you too!!!!:E

[dr skydrol]

Well done:D. I,m with you all the way. Qantas doesn't realise what they've lost. For years I have skipped lunch,gone above and beyond to minimise delays as well.No more. I follow their stupid procedures to their detrement.It is not the intelligence of the Lame that has made Qf engineering a success, but the training we received in the Qf system that has made me what I am today.That is all gone. 85 years of engineering excellence gone in 2 years of mismanagement. The last course I did was how throw teddy bears around a room full of "Amazing people". Gee wiz that has been a great help. I don't mean to delay aircraft I am just following your procedures so be greatful. Its what you wanted.:mad: off back to EOC you idiots before the damage is irreversible.Imagine if they became Mc Donalds managers, you would have to go to KFC for a Big Mac cause they be outsourced.
If 3% is all they give then thats what they'll get back.

[Gone Sailing]

M and his mates buggered EOC, to the point where they have engines in the shop for over 12 months now... not obsolete engines like the JT3 that they kept running for the RAAF, but RB211-524G's.

I went to see some mates in eoc one xmas and they were putting up banners that read ' 200.. The year of the 90 day engine ' ... the next year, they were putting up banners that read ' 200.. The year of the 120 day engine '

They have an RB211 that has been in the shop for over 12 months now...

M is a slash and burn man, we need to rebuild what he has destroyed with his ignorance, arogance and stupidity. He and his cronies must go so that we can get on with the task, the long an expensive task...

What will the real cost be.......

[Clipped]

Isn't that a Centre of Excellence?

My God, this lot must deploy some technical spin so the bean counters never take into account the outrageous costs incurred here and everywhere else M and his cronies have leaned with their exceptional business skills.

Q is being gutted and are they too stupid to realise it ... or just too arrogant?

[hannibal lector]

What did the boys at ADL ITB do?????

[Gone Sailing]

M simply does not understand what it is that he is managing.

Anyone who has heard him speak will know and fear this fact.

For me it is not whether he figures it out but whether the board figures it out and acts accordingly and removes the problem.

[chemical alli]

so where is mr itookdamoney now ? to the so called stikebreakers/scabs who signed the dotted line, how does it feel that your names will be forever tarnished,the lists will be published both here and o/s so enjoy the silver you have sold your soul for while it lasts.

[Short_Circuit]

I can't wait to see the list, see who was about to stab us in the backs!:mad:

[The Mr Fixit]

Chem Alli / Shorty

I luv u guys :E

[LAMEA380]

Can you please promise that you will publish this...PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE

Hope you are prepared , becauase i wouldnt want you to put anyones name up that is incorrect,

Actually you problably will get it wrong you idiot

In fact that way when you get sued for defamation , you will have to post applogies on this site in your real name,

Will be great for all to know who you are you

Come on POST THE NAMES Dare you to! JUST MAKE SURE YOU ARE 100%

Even if you are 100% CORRECT you will be challenged to prove it, as i would like to know how you found these out and will look forward to UNMASKING you for who and what you really are

[ConcernedLAME]

No need to post.....we work in a small industry....there isnt much that does not get around the network/industry....

[Headcone]

Chem Alli & Short_Circuit,

It is obviously wishful thinking on your behalf.

:rolleyes:

[Headcone]

LAMEA380,

I'm with you.

[The Mr Fixit]

Ouch seems to have touched a nerve Chem Ali :eek:

Do not fear, just send their names through to the asn I'm sure they will be more than happy to keep an eye on them :E

A380 doorstop, since youre so upset, have you heard JHAS has lost the bid already :{

[another superlame]

If QF management read this thread then they will probably come to the realisation that they don't want a workforce full of bad blood working on their new pride and joy.
It looks like the ALAEA members are self imploding while QF just sit back and let it happen. They are masters at the divide and conquer process and reading these threads it is working for them.

[Talkwrench]

Hi Headcone, are you going to back up your claim re: post #86: ‘Guys you could have done better than this had you persisted.’ Headcone, the EBA is not certified yet. It appears that you have some inside info on how we can do better if we persist. Can you please pass this information on to the ALAEA executive so they can act on it? Are you a member of the ALAEA or even a LAME? Where are you getting your inside info from? Thanks for any assistance.

[knuckledragger1]

It is quite obvious that Headcone is a F**kwit,

Refer to post #86: ‘Guys you could have done better than this had you persisted'

This means he is not a LAME

He is most likely one or more of 4 things,

1, A troll,

2, An agent of the other side of the negotiating table,

3, An alter ego of one of the posters here, to drum up argument

4, A misguided individual who thinks that there is a reward for employees with cheap allegiences,

BTW I know for a fact that the reward these sort of people get - will come from both sides, a prime example is how the scabs on the waterfront dispute ended up.

:ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch: :ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:

[employes perspective]

if the ALAEA has done a deal where it is looking after LAME's that are only at Qf(currently employed),then i will reconsider my future when it comes to scabbing.
Set up a B scale i dare you.........

[Headcone]

Talkwrench & knuckledragger1,

Maybe I should rephrase what I posted. I should have said, "Guys you may have done better than this had you persisted"

I did not mean to offend by my comment it was merely speculation.

I would also like to clarify that I am none of the things knuckledragger1 suggests I am.

;)

[ConcernedLAME]

The deal being negotiated is a PRINCIPLE IN AGREEMENT..it still has to be voted on by the membership . Regardless if the Association endorse it, the members still have to vote . Either way the vote goes the association will support us 110%....

[PIOT Bord]

The Association has already assembled a list. Names have been provided from sources from both inside and outside of QF. Don't think that everybody involved in recruiting you s*!bs, supports you.

Lists do not need to be published for all you s*!bs to be revealed. If you don't have any family, "friends" or ever worked in the industry in Australia you might be able to keep a low profile, otherwise bad luck.

Names are already circulating, some have been revealed because you have been spotted in other ports doing training/recurrency; overseas colleagues have revealed where you were going; training lists have been supplied; fellow s*!bs have revealed who else have been involved; you have resigned from the ALAEA; family / friends have revealed to others in the industry what you are up to.

There is no reason for doubt - we know who you are!

[LAMEA380]

WOW, your really scare me, am quaking in my boots,

THe fact of the matter is the landscape in aviation is changing this agreement IN PRINCIPLE proves it.

Dinosaurs like you have had their day,

You seem to have some sort of meglomanic delusions that you guys have some sort of influence or power over others , do you really belive that anybody cares about your list your threats, you really have lost touch

BUT continue to MAKE YOURSELF FEEL BETTER, with your delusions of retrebution , what a joke you are, the horse has bolted, yet you are the only one that cannot see it.

[Short_Circuit]

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

—Matthew 26:52

We long for your day of reckoning ...:ok:

(Meaning, he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword).

[LAMEA380]

Just reinforces my point on your mentality, and delusions

who gives you the right to quote the bible, and on what basis

You amaze me with your delusions of self inportance, absolutely disgraceful the lot of you.

[chemical alli]

so now mr lameA380, you feel vindicated in posting legal premise.in regards to publishing the lists of names of the unscupulous who were so blatant in voicing their own self worth on this forum, whilst undermining a legal application to the airc.by the looks of it the alaea has achieved an outcome without any undue reproach from the travelling public.
when the in principle agreement is published and voted on by the members,do not think the untoward will walk softly into the nite to be forgotten.

[chemical alli]

to the guys posting what they believe to be the letter of agreement.

just hold fire until you have a copy of the eba offer in your hot little hands ,speculation and inuendo do no favours either to the alaea or the company.

once read and if accepted to be put to a vote, you can tick yes or no

[Short_Circuit]

Just reinforces my point on your mentality, and delusions

who gives you the right to quote the bible, and on what basis

You amaze me with your delusions of self inportance, absolutely disgraceful the lot of you.



2 Timothy 4


In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus,
who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his
appearing and his kingdom,
I give you this charge: Preach the Word;

Guess it is pretty obvious who..:ok:

The Father, Son & Holy Spirit (and Myself) await your reply. :E

[Millet Fanger]

LameA380 - The way I read it, you asked for lists to be published of those who were willing to short circuit a legal industrial negotiation process by providing a substandard, undermanned workforce who were motivated purely for short term personal gain.

Can you please promise that you will publish this...PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE
Come on POST THE NAMES

You weren't particularly happy when it was pointed out that a "list" does not need to be "published" for it to become public knowledge.

Good Luck with your future pursuits in the aviation industry!


SpannerTwister - While I don't totally disagree with your sentiments, when asked at the ALAEA meeting who wanted all details released (knowing that it could harm the "in-principle agreement"), 98% of those present voted not to reveal details of the package.

If the package is no good, I'll support your line of thinking 100%. Until then, how about staying united with the 98% who are willing to hold fire for the next couple of days. We don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[upsidefront]

Knuckledragger, you are the man!!!


thosecotos, please bear in mind that not all LAME's get 100k+ for signing one type, most QF LAME's sign 2 or more types for 75k including a fist full of O/T

[thosecotos]

thosecotos, please bear in mind that not all LAME's get 100k+ for signing one type, most QF LAME's sign 2 or more types for 75k including a fist full of O/T

Then why aren't you going for 50%?

And while you're at it, have your shift penalties included into your base so your super (and overtime rate) goes up. We do and so do JQ.

[Itookdamoney]

Hello,
I put in a post. What hapened to it?

[The_King]

ItookdamoneyHello,
I put in a post. What hapened to it?


I guess it wasn't very important or interesting then.

[division1]

We've had a vote, we told the executive we want 5%, why the :mad: would they even bother putting a lesser offer to us for consideration ?

Which vote was that one SpannerTwister?
The p.i.a. vote was to advance the e.b.a. negotiations.
5% would be nice, when the proposal is distributed i would
not be surprised if >50% of members get more than that.
All the briefs so far talk about the total packaged percentage.
If thats the case, the exec just might let us consider it, :rolleyes:.

[Konehead]

thosecotos, please bear in mind that not all LAME's get 100k+ for signing one type, most QF LAME's sign 2 or more types for 75k including a fist full of O/T

HEAR HEAR! I've been a 'loyal' and proud QF employee for 16 years. But the last two years of management incompetence have done a hatchet job on my natural optimism and left me demoralised and disillusioned. :{

I have two licences. Only a few months ago, I was worse off than my VB colleagues with a single licence. I looked on with envy as they received Embraer and EASA training while my own management fiddled as Rome burned... I wanted to leave QF but I wouldnt go without a redundancy. It just didnt make financial sense... and I had that remnant of optimism whisper from adark corner, "Things will get better!"

After years of service points accrual and a level increase, I'm finally roughly on parity with my VB colleagues. While I've had my share of disappointments, I consider myself lucky having received even limited QF paid training, compared to many other LAMEs, especially some of my Black-hander brothers, who've had to pay for their single licence. This was reinforced when at the feedback meeting the ALAEA Prez compared the pay grades of JQ, VB, QF and JHAS LAMEs with a single licence.

Now the only thing that keeps me employed at QF is the desire to outlast MH, DC and GD and HOPEFULLY see a turnaround in a once-proud icon. Oh, and that little remnant of optimism. :}:ok:

Any LAME on less than Level 8 should welcome the success of JHAS etc. They all pay their single licence LAMEs very well, they are training and they are employing. If this company doesn't turn around, my bet is quite a few LAMEs, myself included will say, "You know what? F:mad:K the redundancy - I can't continue to mortgage my soul, job satisfaction and happiness in the hope of a lump sum that may or may not be on offer in the future. I'm off to JHAS/VB/V Aus/JQ/Tiger. I've had enough!"

And while you're at it, have your shift penalties included into your base so your super (and overtime rate) goes up. We do and so do JQ...both largely non unionised workforces, forgotten by the Q.L.A.E.A

:ouch: Ouch that hurt. The truth I mean. Perhaps we can write that down for our NEXT log of claims?

HOWEVER, we DO get paid overtime if we stay back at the end of a shift, from the minute it starts, not 2 hours later... only a small recompense in comparison. And I hear on the grapevine that VB LAMEs are not entirely happy with their management. Not point scoring - just scoping the ground in case the "I've had enough!" moment comes sooner than I expected.

As for the EBA. All will be revealed tomorrow! If the members of the executive are looking and sounding like the cat that got the cream, then it can't be too bad eh? :ok:

[Itookdamoney]

All I did was post the initials of some of the guys on my CAR 214 training at Terry Hills set up by Keith . C working for Oldsmeadow enterprises.

[Anulus Filler]

KONEHEAD

If this company doesn't turn around, my bet is quite a few LAMEs, myself included will say, "You know what? FK the redundancy - I can't continue to mortgage my soul, job satisfaction and happiness in the hope of a lump sum that may or may not be on offer in the future. I'm off to JHAS/VB/V Aus/JQ/Tiger. I've had enough!"




This is what they want you to do. Saves them a payout. Hang in there brother and bring them down with you. Bury yourself in the bull excrement that they have created and delay, delay, delay!!!! After a while you will begin to enjoy your job again.:ok:

[Dr Itzfukt]

LameA380 you seem a little on edge and worried!!! :}:}:}:}:}:}:}:}:}:}:}

[Konehead]

Hang in there brother and bring them down with you. Bury yourself in the bull excrement that they have created and delay, delay, delay!!!! After a while you will begin to enjoy your job again.:ok:

I must say I enjoy coming to work to see the latest chapter in the unfolding drama of management incompetence. Case in point: the IFE contract. The rumour I heard was MH was unhappy with Rockwell Collins' labour hire rate, IASA told him their labour hire rate was lower, so he cancelled RC's contract and gave it to IASA. RC sacked their guys as they were no longer required, IASA employed the same guys on a lower rate. Minor glitch in MH's cunning plan: RC, being the manufacturer, was charging QF virtually cost price for parts (I heard $80 for a pax control unit). But IASA has to buy the parts from RC and are charging QFa big mark-up (I heard $600 for the same pax control unit - of which they replace around 300 per month). OOPS! So now the IFE contract cost has actually increased rather than decreased. Oh Muzza, you still have that silly smirk you were wearing while you were taking notes in the corner for Geoff during the recent EBA meeting as you were humiliated by the union in front of your boss? You're on borrowed time, you clown. You really are a pr:mad:ck-fingers aren't you? You've f:mad:ked everything you've touched.

[Short_Circuit]

Just a thought..... why not get your own avionic base employees to
service the IFE, no contract to worry about, plus the guys are already being paid.
Ops, thats too logical. (Crawls back under his rock).:}

P.I.A. soon?

[division1]

Strong words there Kone, as much as we disagree with M.H.'s
messages within a.c.s., i prefer to direct my contempt to D.C..

My eyes nearly fell out of my head when his latest creation appeared,
it's a fabulous framed picture of two strategy maps next to each other.
Does this man really think his bridges of trust and 4 of 5 pillars, his
cardinal rules, and the other pyramid schemes like intelligent space
are usefull in the maintenance of aircraft.

[Short_Circuit]

They have no idea about aircraft maintenance......:ugh:

[knuckledragger1]

Good for some,

:D:D:D:D:D

Not for others.

:D:D:D:D:D

Now who were those scabs again???

how about Mr **** ****** and *** ***** not forgetting ********

Long memories gentlemen!

:{:{:{:{:{

[capt.cynical]

Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901
Further information and media releases can be found at the Qantas website: qantas.com
QANTAS REACHES AGREEMENT WITH ENGINEERS
SYDNEY, 5 February 2008: Qantas said today that it had reached an ‘in principle’ Enterprise
Bargaining Agreement (EBA) with the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA).
The new four-year agreement, which will be the subject of a formal vote, covers nearly 1,600 Qantas
Engineering employees.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the agreement was important for the
Qantas Group and its employees.
“The agreement has been the subject of intense negotiations in recent weeks and will create a
foundation for jobs growth in Qantas, as well as providing a solid base for aircraft maintenance in
Australia,” Mr Dixon said.
“It will also provide certainty regarding pay and conditions over a four-year period and will provide
Qantas Engineering with the workplace cooperation, flexibility, and efficiencies it needs to meet cost
and competitive pressures.”
Key features of the agreement, which are consistent with those reached with other Qantas unions,
include:
�� an annual wage increase of three per cent, backdated to January 2007;
�� an increase in company superannuation contributions in accumulation funds to no less than 10
per cent, with employees in defined benefit schemes also able to salary sacrifice their employee
contributions; and
�� changes to the number and spread of part-time and casual employees and the lifting of
restrictions on the use of fixed term contract employment.
The agreement also covers a range of issues related to Qantas Engineering’s heavy maintenance
operations, including greater roster flexibility at key heavy maintenance bases.
Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3716)
Media Enquiries: Lloyd Quartermaine T: 02 9691 4058

[chockchucker]

Looks like the deal is near to being done. Don't know about you guys and gals but, whilst it's not what everybody wanted, it was a negotiation and I doubt too many of us could have gotten any better.


Changes are often acheived an inch at a time. Hopefully by the time the next EBA negotiation comes around, work choices will be a distant memory, and we can advance our cause a little further.


Thoughts anybody?:cool:


http://www.alaea.asn.au/CMS/plainText/Notices/files/20080205_Qantas%20LAME%20EBA%20VIII%20Outcome.pdf

[chockchucker]

Looks like the deal is done. If what is said here is to be believe, it would appear as though the new Qantas flagship will indeed be maintained in-house (primarily)

Along with a commitment to A330 and Narrow body heavy maintenance being kept on-shore.


Opinions??

http://www.alaea.asn.au/CMS/plainText/Notices/files/20080205_Qantas%20LAME%20EBA%20VIII%20Outcome.pdf

[satos]

Looks like nothing will ever change at qantas.
Alaea has sold us out again.
What has happened to our 4% claim.
I know what I'll be voting.

[Redstone]

Look, the xpt and definition of an employee clauses had the potential to do all qantas lame's massive damage down the track. They would have been used to smash us even more, so for mine the fact that they are out is a win. I think the assn guys have done a stand up job in what I can only imagine would have been trying and painfull circumstances. They particularly got things moving towards the end of last year.

Is it to my personal liking? Well I'm still digesting it, but on balance at this stage I can't honestly say that I'm against it. For what it's worth, I think this eclipses the offer the company put up originally, that same offer that management and some DE's said was great and a top deal (we remember who you are), compared to the starting point of that insult it is a win.

The more important question now, however, is where does M fit into all this. That is several times now that he has stamped his feet only to have his superiors sort the problem out..........

[chockchucker]

I don't know Satos. 3% + 1% super. Not to mention some of the other fiddles. I agree, it's not a home run victory but, we live to fight another day. A day when our negotiating team isn't hamstrung by work choices.

Like I said in another thread, sometimes these changes can only occur a little bit at a time. I too would have prefered 5% but, better to have what is on offer than to see the H/Maint brothers outsourced/sold up an asian river someplace. It isn't perfect but, rarely is any negotiated outcome between two parties who can't stand each other.

Only my opinion.:cool:

[Ultralights]

wow, another 3%.... whoohooo. :rolleyes: inflation is at 4%. :mad:

BAE engineers have earned 4.5% every year for the past 5 yrs. not to mention a performance bonus of between $4 and $5K

[AEROMEDIC]

Tell me where THAT is and I'll be there.....!!!

EBA....??? Not happy Steve!!!

[PitPin]

Lets hope the agreement is explained in a little more detail ,

Why not one 1 point for all levels after all we are equals :ugh:

[another superlame]

The ALAEA is once again gutless and spineless and hasn't listened to their members. They have gone to the table with what they want and not what the members asked for.
As usual the heavy maintenance areas will be screwed by the numbers of ACS. So hopefully they can stand up and fight.

[NAS1801]

Geez...... seems the ALAEA have backed down without a fight. How disappointing.

What ever happened to 5%?

Just remember, the MEMBERSHIP still has the final say. Tell them to stick it!

[mavrik1]

So A330 is the only widebody to be kept onshore and there not saying onshore with who yet? Sounds fishy once again!

[another superlame]

The thread name is incorrect
It should read
QANTAS REACHES AGREEMENT WITH ALAEA(and sells out membership in the process)

[Clipped]

Tell me .. does onshore = in-house?

However, despite the disparity in increases for LAMEs on different payscales, the Ass'n has negotiated well in trying circumstances.

[QF22]

Good question, as far as the A380 goes JHAS didn't get it, so it remains in-house with QF.
Although JH is doing some overflow 767 and 737 work for QF.
Cheers

[600ft-lb]

Once again its the companies initial offer of rediculous terms and conditions that gets everyone's back up, they spend months and months negotiating and finally, after all is said and done, 3% plus a few sweeteners that benefit people who are already earning good money.

The lowly LAME level 3's, 4's, 5's and 6's are the ones likely to be in the company less then 10 years, so the staff travel benefit does nothing for them, like it was a big deal anyway.

Fuel tank allowance, most higher level LAME's are too fat or old and immobile to get in the tanks anyway, so there is a very, very slight benefit for breathing in hydrocarbons in your day to day job should you be so lucky to get that job.

Level 9 free for life ? well that will do me well in about 20 years time.

1 service point ? what a joke.

and to top it all off

A 4 year agreement, Qantas management once again gets away with giving out a pay rise less then the rate of inflation, and gets to lock it in for 4 more years.

So basically, its looking after those at the top, again, gives the guys at the bottom 2/5th's of not a lot, and the ALAEA are recommending we vote yes ? :confused:

Watch the AME's and apprentices leave in droves in the coming years to places like VB, JHAS, GA even has outstripped Qantas rates of pay.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[chockchucker]

Is it just me, or do we need to look past the 3% base rate increase?


The 3% figure is a face-saving one for Qantas. There's an extra 1% super contribution from Qantas to added on to this. As well as service point, allowance increases etc.


I realize giving Qantas a kick in the guts through P.I.A. will make everybody feel a little better, I'm just not sure that under the current industrial relations laws, that such action will result in a better offer at this point in time.


I for one believe that Qantas management are that bloody minded, that they would offshore the majority of H/maint and possibly a great deal of ACS, in order to save face rather than cave in to P.I.A. I know that would stuff the organisation but, most of these guys wouldn't be around to have to clean up the mess.


I think everybody should wait and read the final document, and then let cooler heads prevail. The next round of EBA negotiations will hopefully be held in a far more friendly industrial relations environment than the current one inherited from the Howard government. Perhaps then we can inch further toward a more reasonable and respectable outcome.


Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but, my inclination as a LAME on the job, and with this latest agreemant hammered out over 13 months, is that we should play it safe.:ok:

[The Black Panther]

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but, my inclination as a LAME on the job, and with this latest agreemant hammered out over 13 months, is that we should play it safe.

Have your testicles dropped yet?

We were presented a "Ra Ra....We will change the corruption and secret deal that exists in the executive" ...."We won't be pushed around" We will take to the spineless QF Management" ra ra ra ....

Guess what? The tail is between there legs, they've greased the palm of the quota held avionic Lame's on the office and say sorry guys, "this is as good as it gets.....3% with some cream for senior ACS members who are quota held.....but we did our best"

Why did everything go so quiet after the last month???? ACTU? GD? Secret Mens business?

This is the best time to fight. Don't go for an arm and a leg JUST STAY WITH INFLATION AT THE VERY LEAST. I say fight for 5% and I don't care if there is 10% of us left. We will get employment while the Australian economy remains buoyant on the back of a steel hungry China. Make it equal for all. Unionism is based on equality and fairness and not an unbalanced agreement that favours a few such as the one presented today.

I say fight, and fight now. Forget the roadshow cause there will be a bit of roadkill lying around.

[chockchucker]

I get the desire to kick the company in the nuts and ask for 5% Panther but, what comes after you've intiated the action? Starting a fight is easy, finishing it off and winning is a lot harder. Especially against a very well financed bully like Qantas.


You might be happy to sacrifice all but 10% of the LAME jobs at Qantas however, there are more than a few out there with mortgages and kids to feed and put through school.


I just don't think that you've taken into account all the implications of such actions. As I say, it might make us feel better for a little while but under the current environment I just don't see it producing a better outcome. And be prepared for a lot of what is on the table now to be removed.


Careful and coolheaded consideration is what is required here.


Oh, and yes my testicles have dropped. I just prefer not to end up castrated.:ok:

[upsidefront]

Reject this EBA

Reject this EBA

Reject this EBA

How can 3% in the hand keep up with inflation. Thanks for 1% super will help heaps when I retire in 3099, how am I to pay my mortgage etc in the mean time?

Reject

Reject

Reject

[upsidefront]

Reject this EBA

Reject this EBA

Reject this EBA

How can 3% in the hand keep up with inflation. Thanks for 1% super will help heaps when I retire in 3099, how am I to pay my mortgage etc in the mean time?

Reject

Reject

Reject

[alpine57]

Seems like a very poor outcome.

The FAAA managed massive recruitment in their EBA, inclusion of long service entitlements into their EBA, a $3000 sign on bonus etc and they didn't even have to threaten industrial action.

I guess it's a case of a very inexperienced leadership that unresonably raised expectations , like a 5% wage claim and then fell flat on its face.

[The Black Panther]

12th February: ALAEA membership reject EBA offer.

13th February: Qantas immediately pulls backpay from any future agreement
Leave cancelled.
Qantas PR machine starts to paint LAMEs as greedy and unprofessional employees.
ALAEA gain support from Channel 7 and ABC.
The media war begins.

15th February: ALAEA have no choice but to advise Qantas of protected industrial action.

19th February: PIA begins.
Qantas scabs move in.
ALAEA use the ACS system of maintenance as there main weapon.
Delays increases within 24hrs. Scabs have little effect due to the vastness of aircraft and locations.
Internals scabs within break overtime bans and in fighting begins within the ALAEA.

20th February: Scabs having little effect on overtime and secondment bans.
Aircraft now delayed from A check's. Other major checks also likely to be delayed.
Qantas gets tough and stands down 3 LAME's.
Membership walks off jobs for 4 hours.
QANTAS deducts pay.
ALAEA have numerous AIRC meetings with Qantas.
ALAEA funds getting low.

24th February: Qantas network now approaching total disarray with aircraft having major delay due maintenance problems in three overseas locations.
QANTAS appeals to the government. No joy.
Stop work meetings during peak time having major disruptions.
Public start to side with Qantas.

27th February: Scabs failing to stop the leaks. Public getting very very pis#ed off.
ACS system of maintenance stills causing major heads for QF Engineering.
QF management helpless as engineers use there own creation as the main weapon.

28th February: Labor government get involved to bring parties together.

29th February: Emergency meetings called with GD and ALAEA.
3 LAMES reinstated.

1st March: Resolution obtained 5% for 3 years, 3% backpay reinstated for previous 12mths. Minor additions but no change to quotas
and agreement is very fair for all grades.

2nd March PAI dissolved until outcome of vote.

9th March: Membership accepts new deal .
10th March: ALAEA is battered, funds low but union spirit is strong however memebership numbers decreases and internal scabs bail and 2 groups exists at Qantas, union and non-union.
A bad relationship with QF Management lives on.

JHAS assists QF to get backlog of aircraft serviceable and a support relationship begins with JHAS working in hand with ALAEA and QANTAS for overflow work.

[employes perspective]

Qantas has play you lot like a fiddle,stick in this XPT clause,some sh!t here and there,offer 3% then at the last minute remove the ambit claims with 3% to remain,ha presto your all a bunch of winners,same old script and you people have fallen for it hook line and sinker,this has been going on for the last 10 yrs:D:D:D:D:D

[employes perspective]

I don't know Satos. 3% + 1% super. Not to mention some of the other fiddles. I agree, it's not a home run victory but, we live to fight another day. A day when our negotiating team isn't hamstrung by work choices.

Like I said in another thread, sometimes these changes can only occur a little bit at a time. I too would have prefered 5% but, better to have what is on offer than to see the H/Maint brothers outsourced/sold up an asian river someplace. It isn't perfect but, rarely is any negotiated outcome between two parties who can't stand each other.

Only my opinion.:cool:








what the hell are you talking about our brothers in Syd HM are gone,get a grip fool,they are playing as again,this is Sh!t

[chockchucker]

You make some interesting assumptions with your nostradamus like prediction of what P.I.A. would look like Panther. Especially that part about the Labour govt basically coming to our rescue.

My only response to that would be, "What is past is prologue". Just ask any old pilot what the Labour govt (headed by a former ACTU secretary) did for them in 1989.


Believe it or not, I don't like it any more than you do. I just cannot see a better outcome, as lousy as it may be, at this particular point in time.


Like I said before, better we live to fight another day when we have more of an advantage going our way i.e. no workchoices legislation.:ok:


EP. Our brothers in Tulla, Brisbane, and yes, Avalon could all still be made to walk the plank if we don't play our cards right. I just think you're advocating playing Russian Roulette with a lot of other peoples jobs.

[another superlame]

There hasn't even been a meeting to put this to the members and already they are going soft.
Once again they are dividing and conquering. Nothing really fantastic has come out of it. If you keep the 380 then 2 dozen guys will be happy for the screwing the rest get.
3 weeks ago it was all 5% or nothing but now you have the sweetener of back pay and all is forgiven and forgotten. I understand the pressures of a mortgage 1 income and 4 kids.But you really aren't looking further than your nose. Short term gain long term pain.
I bet the wording of the overseas stuff is so weak ambiguous that they can still send it wherever,whenever they want due to OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS

And ChockChucker you say you will live to fight another day.

Get real you haven't even started fighting, you called a bluff and they have bluffed you back and you are falling for it,

[Capt Wally]

I'm not that ofay with all the goings on here with the engineers & their sneaky employer/s But am convinced that the ones that make the rules (management) seek info here with a fine tooth comb. This forum is perfect for both sides I believe. They (the enermy) can sus out how the troops are battling/handling it (it being the details on offer) between @ other (GOOD & BAD)& their general feelings on the whole ugly matter & secondly the troops themselves can with some level of anonynimity thrash it out between yourselves.
Seems to me that 3% barely made any inroads to a better relationship between 'them & us'............still we are dealing with an industry that has only one real avenue of bargaining power & that's via the employees. The cost of everything else continues to rise, parts etc things that they can do scant about but they (management) can & will keep trying to screw you lot. As some have said in here, what may appear to be a resolution might in the long run be of little benifit. At the end of the day YOU, as an individual need to asses what's right for YOU.
Good luck guys, as I've said elsewhere in these forums we (pilots) NEED you guys/gals......................don't leave us just yet, planes aren't self healing !!!:)

CW:)

[employes perspective]

wimps,,,,,,,,,,,wimps,,,,,,,,,,,,,,nothing has changed with this lot:{:{:{:{:{

[chockchucker]

I'm obviously in the minority in my opinion here as far as whether or not to accept this deal goes. That's O.K. this is a democracy and I am prepared to accept the decision of the majority. I am not a scab nor will I ever lower myself to be one.:ok:

Just hope all the hawks out there who are so keen for action to be taken,despite not yet having read the final document, are prepared for all the consequences that may result.


The industrial landscape that we find ourselves in today is not the same that our fathers and grandfathers worked in, unfortunately.


Good luck everybody.:cool:

[thosecotos]

QF LAME's, congratulations you now hold the balance of power! Your Management just traded what I believe was their biggest negotiating weapon of outsourcing the A380, so you have them over a barrel...Don't waste it.

BTW Black Panther, Can you PM me tomorrows lotto numbers too?

[another superlame]

I don't believe the A380 is a negotiating weapon,not for the masses anyway. Only a few hand chose elite non ALAEA golden boys will ever get to make money from it.
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere.

[Clipped]

Look at what was presented to us by DC initially.

Look at the draft agreement now.

Alot of work was needed to go from the first to the final.

That period of quiet was a time of intense negotiation and a more positive outcome was achieved. Opinions would have been sought from even Gov't levels.

Everyone of us knows how pig headed QE mgmt are to deal with at the best of times, this was not a walk in the park.

I personally would have preferred a 5% increase for ALL LAMEs, that is too simple an outcome and it could have forced Q to a drastic reaction at a great cost to the membership.

I say we take our small win and we keep fighting them day in day out while we're on the job. Let this episode remind you when you are expected to extend yourself again.

[numbskull]

I don't have access to QF intranet but I can't find any announcement from QF that say they are to retain all the 380 work inhouse.

They only announcement I can find is from the ALAEA.

I'm probably being way too cynical, but I would like to hear it from QF before I believe it!!!

[The Mr Fixit]

Wow, its hot in here

Fk this Fk that Fk it all

If you're fair dinkum tell the exec at the feedback meetings that no doubt will come and the company tomorrow at work that it is a **** deal and roll on PIA, if you're not shut the fk up with your winging oh sorry I mean whinging

[thosecotos]

I don't believe the A380 is a negotiating weapon,not for the masses anyway. Only a few hand chose elite non ALAEA golden boys will ever get to make money from it.
The majority of the LAME population know that they will never get a licence on it and couldn't give a toss.
So at the end of the day the A380 is worth nothing to most, they would be happier with 5% and the whole A380 sent elsewhere

Granted and maybe I should just stay at my comfortable distance and mind my business, but it's not about the A380 specifically. Onshore outsourcing would likely have opened the flood gates for JHAS to secure other current types, which would have been very unsettling

[knuckledragger1]

C'mon fellas

vote yes:hmm:, vote yes:hmm:,

Just don't forget that we are

A LAME OF ONE

that extra 2% in wages will cost a lot more in parts, manpower and delay,:ugh:

I understand the beancounters think they are not related or on the same part of the balancesheet

However as one not skilled in the twists and turns of accountancy, i see them on the same ledger:*

All you smart@rse sh!tstirring so and so's LAMEA380 Headcone and the like,

report that to the owner of your souls

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[sturner]

I cant believe that the negotiation committee has been talking to the company for how long..15 months..and this garbage is what they managed to come up with.??? 1 point is insulting to every single Lame ..what about the 80 or so percent of the association that voted for industrial action...i thought we as members made that decision...not the negotiation committee.And for them now to endorse this crock of s### is truly unbelievable.Mr Purvinas told us only a couple of weeks ago..in person..we wont get more than 3% but we will get some beneficial sweetners..another lie!!!! they have rolled over once again.surprise ,surprise..
If is good enough for the pilots(good on you guys) to get sign on bonuses or whatever you want to call them..what about us..??? the guys that keep the planes in the sky!!!! it is US who have built the companys second to none safety record and they treat us like garbage.

Reject this in adequate offer..please

[Anulus Filler]

SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Have you ever really thought what it costs us each time we get stalled out of an EBA by a year? Take a look at our super especially if you are in a defined benefit scheme.(divs 1,2&3)

I will give 2 examples below and use $1000 as a base wage for simplicity as at 31/12/06 (end of EBA). In the first case, it is what we should get without any stalling tactics by QF. The second case will focus on the QF style of negotiating.(ie Stall for a year with B.S. clauses and then hold you for ransom on the backpay)

Case 1.(No stalling by QF)

1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk + 3%) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1125.50/wk + 3%) = $1125.50/wk ($58526/year)


Case 2.(Stalling by QF)

1/1/07 - 31/12/07 ($1000.00/wk no rise) = $1000.00/wk ($52000/year)
1/1/08 - 31/12/08 ($1000.00/wk + 3% ) = $1030.00/wk ($53560/year)backpay gets introduced at this stage but base wage is behind by 1 year at least.
1/1/09 - 31/12/09 ($1030.00/wk + 3%) = $1060.90/wk ($55167/year)
1/1/10 - 31/12/10 ($1092.73/wk + 3%) = $1092.72/wk ($56822/year)



Now the FAS (Final average salary) is calculated by the average salary of the last 3 years in divs 2 & 3,or 5 years for div 1. The final average salary is for your financial year. I have worked out the financial year salary for case 1 and case 2.



Case 1.

financial year to 30/6/08 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/09 = $55994
financial year to 30/6/10 = $57674

FAS = $56010 for case 1.



Case 2

financial year to 30/6/08 = $52780
financial year to 30/6/09 = $54363
financial year to 30/6/10 = $55994

FAS = $54379



Now for a Div 2 of retiring age with the company with say 30 years service, will have a retirement benefit multiple of 2.82.


Bottom line

Case 1 retirement benefit is $56010 x 2.82 = $157 948.

Case 2 retirement benefit is $54379 x 2.82 = $153 349.


In this case, a stall of exactly 1 year will cost you $4599 to your super. Now remember that this was only based on a $1000 wage for simplicity. What does it really cost you every time we negotiate for your real wage? How many times have we been stalled for each EBA and what has it really cost us? Maybe we should add that to QF's balance sheet when negotiating. Don't let me start on the interest for the back pay.:sad:

[The Black Panther]

Looks like the PR machine at Bexley was warmed up yesterday to be used against it's own members.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/06/2155325.htm?section=justin

How did Mr Vasta do his market research so quickly..."The 1,600 engineers are expected to vote in favour of the four-year agreement"....

Those for, those against.......Division required, lock the doors.

[Annulus Filler]

Hello Brother AF, what you say is quite true. As long as you don't leave, your FAS will finally catch up. But mind you we are all going to leave one day so you point is 100% correct.

[Annulus Filler]

Could anyone tell me on Super Division 2 whether we are paying 4% mandatory or 5% mandatory Super Contributions currently?

I have been doing some figures myself and correct me if I am wrong. If I was to add $50 per week POST income tax this would not be taxed entering the Super plan as I have already paid income tax to gain this $50. However if I was to pay $50 per week PRE income tax, I will have to pay 15% super entering tax reducing my super to $42.50. I understand that you will be better off in your fortnightly take home pocket, but to what extent does your super account suffer?

Can anyone enlighten me?

[grouter]

Hello brother AF. Is AF annulus filler? Are you talking to yourself?

[Annulus Filler]

Somedays I think I am talking to myself. There is only an 'n' between us?:confused:

[Millet Fanger]

ALAEA Exec - PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!

[Itookdamoney]

Tops!
No industrial action.
Free money for me and my ex base maint and AMSA brothers.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

No problems explaining, I will do some figures today and make a posting.

Nice post by AF but can he please explain why in case 2 the year ending 30/6/10 the figure is $52,780?

Just a general comment about negative feedback and postings. We are all too aware that we could fight for 5% pa, get 6% pa and have members unhappy that we didn't go for 7% pa. It must stop somewhere and the Exec are satisfied that what has been negotiated is a good outcome that a vast majority of members will gladly accept.

There have been times in the last 3 weeks when offers were on the table that would have been voted up but we kept demanding more until a good outcome was achieved. Will post more detail when I get a chance later today.

cheers

[Anulus Filler]

The figures have been changed in case 2. They were upside down.


Grouter

Hello brother AF. Is AF annulus filler? Are you talking to yourself?


I have one 'N' the anulus but were both fillers.:ok:

[The Black Panther]

I compared the EBA VIII proposal against EBA VII.
Firstly the Net profit after tax leading upto the EBA VII agreement date was
03/04 $648mil
04/05 $763mil

The EBA VII agreement was basically 3% plus $1000 as a Qantas stock issue.
There was flexibanking in HM and customer tail payments restrictions. Correct please.

This agreement environment has seen
06/07 $720mil
07/08 $1008mil (est)

In addition we have seen substantial remuneration by high profile management.
A $5.60 share price until recent stock market corrections ($4.60), strong yields from a bubbling economy on the back of the mining sector supplying China.

This agreement does appear to deliver a little more than EBA VII however considering the economic environments and think it should have. Additionally we have storm clouds on our horizon (inflation & int’ rates) whereas in July 2005 it was clear skies.

3% wage increase.
A 4year agreement would see us into the next election period. This government has inherited climbing inflation, and a contracting US economy that could collar the EU. China may also contract after 8-8-08 but more than likely will continue to be positive. The ALP are no certainties in 2010, voters have short memories.

Level 8 and below 1 service point – delivers about 1.8% to 1.3%, you would have received this in August anyway but it is a forward payment.

Superannuation SS – It does add to your investment however it won’t pay the additional mortgage payment increases as variable rates continue to rise. Again a small addition that cost Qantas zero dollars. Which is good, we do need this company to prosper.

Quotas release, Staff travel, Cert IV trainer payment, PCT and tank payments probably only affect a small percentage and appears biased to the senior highly licensed line guys. The A380 selection issue may only effect a handful of applicants. Read and believe what you will about the HM 330 and 737. Somewhat suspicious why DC didn’t include more detail in his lightning fast propaganda notice.

So basically this agreement does contain a lot more items then the previous agreement and there are segments of winners and losers. I do see now they (Alaea Exec) would have been working hard. I have relented slightly and expect a strong sell by the exec which will see this get over the line with minor grumbling.

[Anulus Filler]

MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT

Brother Filler....

Hello Brother AF, what you say is quite true. As long as you don't leave, your FAS will finally catch up.

Not really correct with the catching up. If we have an EBA every 3 years and all they give us is back pay for the year we lost, we will lose 3% to the FAS for every EBA we get into even though our take home renumeration would be virtually the same.

My point is that after 3 EBA's over 9 years, your FAS will be down by 9% to where it should be but you will still have a 3% wage rise each year. Now start to think what that costs us over a period of time!!!!

There are number crunchers who think of this sh#t all the time to justify their existance. We are the ones who pay for it. That is why I will be AGAIN voting for PIA. There has to be a decent renumeration package. I'm very certain our excecutives wouldn't accept this if the shoe was on the other foot.:ouch:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

G'day AF,

Thanks for the last ammendent just wanted some more clarification.

Backpay paid in year 2 is not included. I would assume that this is part of your taxable income for that year and therefore part of the FAS. If this is not the case can you please explain why?

In case 2 you have only added 3% in year 2. At some point in year 2 the base actually increases by 6% being 3% effective and backpaid from 1 Jan 2007 and 3% effective and backpaid from 1 Jan 2008. By the time year 3 and 4 come around the wage is the same in both cases one and two. Can you please shed some light for me.

[Anulus Filler]

Thanks ALAEA Fed Sec...

My understanding of the defined super schemes is that the Final Average Salary is the base wage annually excluding shift penalties and back pays. I'm in div 2 and the FAS does not include any penalties.It is only the base rate. So the way that I understand it is that even though the bottom line may be a 6% rise after 2 years, the FAS is still showing only 3% because the base wage only rose 3% and the back pay gave the other 3%.

.....am I thinking too much here???

Time for my next beer..:ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

BP - Lots of discussion about Qantas profits over time and yes they are bigger now than EBA VII. Yes this result stacks up better but it has been negotiated under competely different IR Laws.

The WRA was ammended in March 2006 making it tougher to negotiate an outcome or take PIA. Some of the changes included -


prohibited content - many items including some things in EBA VII and prior are now prohibited such as offshoring of maint restrictions.
you now need a ballot by AEC to take PIA, before the Exec could just announce it.
If you take PIA in many circumstances your pay for the day is taken away.
all previous agreements need to be consolidated in to one.
The list goes on and the negotiation of an Agreement is much tougher now than it was 3 or 4 years ago.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thanks AF. Base wage for year one is correct but it will go up 6% in the second year so the numbers would stack up a little different.

The interest on backpay would certainy be one that could be calculated to see how much they pocket.

Ok SpannerTwister you wanted some answers and I won't use the same level of sarcasm, will just give it to you straight.

Post how this extra one service point does not help those members who need TRAINING points to advance.....

I won't do that. It does help them to a lesser extent. When they train (ha ha) they will most likely be able to advance as spots are being opened in the upper levels. They would not have been able to previously. One level at lvl 13 is 4.28% on top of the 3% for that year.

We may all laugh at the lack of training now but for those who have been around a bit longer we can make some assumptions. Bean counters like M come in and make grand statements about not requiring overtime or training. They invariably always get it wrong because they don't know the industry. ST - do you think that 24 A380 LAMEs worldwide will be enough to take care of the new aircraft? I think more training is on the way.

Post how this extra 1% super helps those in division 6 ALREADY getting 10%....


Ok I will. My understanding is that they would now get 11%. Still working on final words in the Agreement.

Post that the members who choose to salary sacrifice their Super will be paying contributions tax, and with the tax rates being much lower then previously, the great savings aren't there....

I'd be a little more accurate. Top tax bracket for most is 40%. Super contribution tax 15%. You will save 25% or 1/4 of your 5% compulsary contribution which is a 1.25% saving.

Post how much QF saves in payroll tax for each member who chooses to salary sacrifice their Super....


I could care less how much it costs or saves Qf. Intersted in getting more money in your pocket or super.

Post how one point which gets members their level increase in three years instead of four years helps pay their mortgages now ....

It doesn't. It helps them in 3 years time. Remember if they are level 3-4 they will get a 7.5% wage rise one year early and can put that on their mortgage then. 7.5% for one year in four, 7.3% for one year in four when he goes to the next level one year early and so on. This one point brings on your new level early every year even beyond the end of the agreement until you cap out. I'm sure you home loan is not a one year length, we have also looked at long term for wage boosts.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Remember SARS / Asian Financial Crisis / September 11th ??? We were told that during those "difficult economic times" how the company could only possibly afford to pay us 3% ?? Now that QF is making money by the bucket-load, if we cannot get more then inflation now, just when will we be able to ???

cont.

We had a wage freeze then not 3%. 3 points which was the same as 4.5% for the 18 month freeze.

This is the first combination of wages (3%) and a point (ave 1.5% depending on level). Add 1% super minimum and one year kick is 5.5%. For some this will be 4% first year and 4.5% in the year the service point takes them to a new level however you look at it.

For those in higher levels who attain a new grade or are free to move from where they are currently stuck, the new grade will give them at least 4.28% on top of 3% in one of the years.

Some will get the benifit of a point and move to level 9 which was previously restricted winning twice.

Yes the other years you will only get 3% but averaged out over time ths is a far better deal than previous ones.

cheers

[PitPin]

So the Lame on Lvl 9 who is not in line for training gets no benefit as he/she has no service/training points to progress but everyone gets a step up ?
But of course the upper level 13 Lames always get taken care of ?

[chemical alli]

ill take my 3%,plus the interest lost on my pay for the last fifteen months at 7%,along with the interest on my super at 14.25%.unless backpay is indexed and interest calculated once again you have lost money.not to mention compounded interest on my mortage that has been lost

[The Mr Fixit]

My grandfather once told me if you're going to bet on a horse in a race bet on the one called Self Interest..................

[satos]

We had a wage freeze then not 3%. 3 points which was the same as 4.5% for the 18 month freeze.
Qantas offers a wage freeze to their employees during so called"hard times" a few years back yet still announces a record profit for that year.
Wake up people we are all being taken for a ride by Dixon and his cronies.
Inflation is up to 4% and climbing and yet they want to lock us in for a 4 year deal.Inflation at the end of the 4th year could rise to 6% and we are locked in for 3%.
VOTE NO.

[Torqueman]

ALAEA Fed Sec


Quote:
Post how one point which gets members their level increase in three years instead of four years helps pay their mortgages now ....
It doesn't. It helps them in 3 years time. Remember if they are level 3-4 they will get a 7.5% wage rise one year early and can put that on their mortgage then. 7.5% for one year in four, 7.3% for one year in four when he goes to the next level one year early and so on. This one point brings on your new level early every year even beyond the end of the agreement until you cap out. I'm sure you home loan is not a one year length, we have also looked at long term for wage boosts.

So tell me how this point improves the pay and conditions of someone who obtains their licence in six months time?

What about the future generation?

Is anything here improving the pay and conditions to attract decent people to this industry. Don't tell me their getting three percent because that is only just keeping with inflation.

[sickofqf]

Here's my suggestion,

Vote yes, and carry on at work as if we voted no until DC, MH etc are shtcanned.

I can't see us getting any better without ALOT of grief and heartache.

.....but I really want to see the morons who are destroying QFE booted out the door and if the ZERO on time departures from SIT continue then that WILL happen.

Lets stay strong, stay united and make sure we are negotiating with different managers in 2 1/2 years.


MESSAGE TO FED SEC.

Have you inserted a clause forcing them to start EBA 9 negotiations in January 2010 so we stand a remote chance of completing it BEFORE the current one expires ???

[amos2]

So, let me get this straight...

you guys wanted 5 and Dixon & Co offered 3, am I right so far?

And if I am, then 4 was the obvious result (even Blind Freddie as well as the rest of us could see that)...

but your team settled on 3?

Someone like to explain this style of negotiation to me and a few others?

[Anulus Filler]

sickofqf


Have you inserted a clause forcing them to start EBA 9 negotiations in January 2010 so we stand a remote chance of completing it BEFORE the current one expires ???


Don't you mean July 2009????

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

you guys wanted 5 and Dixon & Co offered 3, am I right so far?

And if I am, then 4 was the obvious result (even Blind Freddie as well as the rest of us could see that)...

but your team settled on 3?


Just briefly this is not the case. We wanted 5 and didn't care how we got it. Most importantly was getting rid of the damaging Qf clauses. The qf clauses are gone and we have extras above 3%.

lvl 3 3% + 1-1.25% super + 1/4 level (1.87%) = 5.87%- 6.12% +3+3+3

lvl 8 3% + 1-1.25% super + 1/4 level (1.28%) = 5.28% - 5.53% +3+3+3
and will move to level 9 during agreement additional 5%

lvl 11 and now quota locked will move to new level
lvl 11 and not locked will have to wait until trained but now has chance to move to 12 that he could not before

lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14.


You can play with the combos as you like but an average outcome across all members would likely to be close to 4% pa.


Just an update - we are having some difficulties getting a couple of managers to actually put the clauses in writing for us. In the words of one Exec member who phoned me today "That ***** (lets call him D) won't allow us to see how many members sit in each level to work out quota numbers". they have until COB Fri to get the clauses right or the action is back on.

[knuckledragger1]

Fed Sec:),

Thankyou for the information

but please don't feed the trolls

i.e. AMOS2

re post #213 - "the rest of us could see that"

Amos2, whos is us?

who do you speak for?

or are you sprouting sh!t again?

:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[HotDog]

How many people who employ this catchphrase called "Troll" actually know what it means? Frequently it seems quite inappropriate to the subject under discussion

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response.

[numbskull]

I'd also like someone to answer Domo's question.

Where can I find the QF announcement that says they are keeping all the the A380 Engineering and Maintenance inhouse?

I smell a big red rat here.

Maybe QF are waiting for you guys to sign off on your EBA before they clarify their position that All Engineeering will be done in house but the Maintenance will be outsourced.

Maybe I'm just too cynical but I don't believe they'd pay for JHAS B1 and B2 training for nothing!

PS your pay increase may JUST keep the majority of currently employed LAMES JUST happy enough to accept it but it will not address the parity of pay for LAMES V Other Trades with a base pay increase of only 3 %. It does not stop the decline of pay and conditions for LAMES or AMES or will it attract the best to the industry. On the contrary it will ensure that only the foolish or the bottom of the barrell candidates will wish to take up an aviation apprenticeship with Qantas.

This is because the base rate is low to any one entering (or lames re-entering) the industry. They won't have the benefit of those years of service points which they have consistently used over the last 10 years to give acceptable pay increases to currently employed staff while keeping the base rate low for any new starters.

You have the opportunity to remedy all this and get a larger base rate pay increase (all of QF will support you). QF are running scared and know exactly how much power the ALAEA wields.

Why accept a base rate increase of 3% for 4 years when inflation is already 3.6% and forecast to go higher along with higher interest rates. If you LAMES accept this then you are seriously selling yourselves short.

[nut turner]

A number of posts have asked,
"What about the future LAME's, what's in it for them?"
The ASN has not cared about them since the LAME pay restucture a number of years back when the Pressident at the time was asked the same question, "What are we doing for future LAME's?"
His reply was "I don't care about them, I'm only interested in the one's here now."
It seems nothing has changed in the last 10-15 years.:(

[sickofqf]

FED SEC said...

"lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14."

Well, that and the Cert4 clause should give a certain well loved supervisor (ie, Seinfelds mail man), who left the union in a big sulk, and has been training scabs along with one or two other "ex" BM guys a nice pay rise.

Good to see those who fought AGAINST us are being amply rewarded!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

A number of posts have asked,
"What about the future LAME's, what's in it for them?"
The ASN has not cared about them since the LAME pay restucture a number of years back when the Pressident at the time was asked the same question, "What are we doing for future LAME's?"
His reply was "I don't care about them, I'm only interested in the one's here now."
It seems nothing has changed in the last 10-15 years.


Guys it's not a case of not caring for those AMEs coming through the system. They got shafted in the past as I did when I only got half the payment for my 767. This in-principle agreement has not solved every problem we face but the AMEs had one win out of this that is far more important than how much they get paid when they get licenced.

If left untouched, they would not have been licenced at all. The Regulatory changes have allowed for the new half baked A-Licence. The in-principle Agreement includes a commitment to not utilise or employ Cat A licences for life of the Agreement.

The negotiation of this Agreement has not been entirely about wages, there are an infinite number of other fators surrounding it that, to many engineers are equally as important.

cheers

[Annulus Filler]

All be it that we may have fixed the EBA issues for the time being, there are still wider issues that will be prevalent after the EBA is signed off. I personally believe that Qantas Engineering management have got it all wrong, relating to manpower, training, licencing and ratios, and that we should continually be vigiliant with carrying out overtime and higher duties to promote their management style.

[division1]

Fed Sec
If left untouched, they would not have been licenced at all. The Regulatory changes have allowed for the new half baked A-Licence. The in-principle Agreement includes a commitment to not utilise or employ Cat A licences for life of the Agreement.

Great work, :D
So much ground has been made the last few weeks,
if the exec is recommending it be voted up, then perhaps
the deal is about as good as it gets for now.
The alaea will come out smelling of roses, no upsets to the
public, big face with gov't and the irc.
It sounds like a lot of lames moving up a grade, i'm sure they will
be happy, 3+5+1.5+++. Am i missing something?
The guy getting +3+1.5++ needs a good hard think about it.

lvl 13 and locked moves straight to new level 14.

does this imply level 14 is open with entry using service points?

[company_spy]

First up, Ultralights..... keep your bib out, I know what you people at BAe are on and I can tell you, 3% of my lolly smashes 5% of yours.

Second, look around you at the biggest whingers and make a quick calculation of how much O/T they have been lapping up, especially towards the end.......

If you want to stand toe to toe with "the man" fair enough. Some of us will stand beside you, but be prepared for the backsliders and snakes because you will soon see how "unified" we are.

Thirdly, before you start posting crap here, wait untill after we get a chance to ask some questions at the meetings. I feel the notice was not written the best, several points need clarification.

[Insider Trader]

What an apt topic to post my first comment...

Never have i encountered such incidious and over-valued rhetoric as i have on these forums. Let's point out a couple of facts to you much 'maligned' QF LAMEs.

You got a pay rise of 3% per annum for 4 yrs. As you know, the Oz economy is bursting at the seams under inflationary pressure, due largely to the previous govts woeful economic policies. Inflation is running at 3.5 - 4%, well above the fed reserve's target of 3%. The easiest way to kerb rising inflation is to stunt wage growth, the Hawke / Keating Wages Accord of the 80's a text book example. Any centralised statutory authority armed with the responsibility of setting wages, such as the AIRC, would look very dimly on any wage rise in the current economic climate. You should consider yourselves lucky to get 3%. Those that wanted war over 5% would have soon found themselves a lifeless mess on the battlefield.

Your superannuation entitlement is fairly attractive IMO. At a rough estimate, most managed funds have been returning 12 - 15%pa on average over the past 5 years. I dare say that would probably outstrip the extra 2% wage rise p.a you soldiers wanted.

And as for your 'measly' back pay, you have an opportunity to do something constructive with the bulk sum, eg a voluntary super contribution, more on the mortgage etc. Because i dare say that had most of you got that in your fortnightly wage for the past 12 months, it would have only been spent on beer and ciggies in the pub, while you all got sloshed and romanticised about how 'great' and 'indispensible' you all are.

The reality is people, this is a dynamic industry, and it stops for no one. JHAS, and other non-airline parties, are the future, whether you like it or not. May i suggest that you give the company good reason in the future to want to offer you a worthwhile EBA, rather than give them the opportunity to farm the work off elsewhere. It's your call.

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!

[Anulus Filler]

Inside Trader

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!


Delays rule my world....They will rule yours. YOU BETTER GET USED OF IT!

[numbskull]

IT you sound like a recently made up manager with very little idea of how airline maintenance works. - Just the type that QF likes to employ.

Stop trying to aggravate people.

The "corporatocracy" is full of greedy self serving executives and if the unions haven't got the balls to teach them a lesson then their own greed will eventually bring them unstuck one way or the other.

[Clipped]

Insider

Thanks for that dose of 'reality'. Straight out of the Dixon Book of Management.

Of course when the operation is all smooth sailing, you are quite right, we should remain alert of the 'dynamic industry' and be gracious to what we have.

But when the machines break - it's always the same desperation, look of uselessness, disregard for costs that the likes of you will endure to get that beast back in the air. It happens ALL the time and far more often these days.

We have core values, being broken down by mismanagement and they need to be enlightened to their wrong doing.

When will you wake up and realise we are on the wrong path.

[knuckledragger1]

Inside trader,

Wow, you've got us in one:rolleyes: So insightful

And well, full of something anyway:zzz:

If you are who you say you are, and not a soldier of darkness:} (you do use the soldier analogy after all)

How do you explain the A380 decision?

and If you are one of the henchmen of shadow, Who did you sell your soul to? Was it worth the pieces of eight to be reviled and despised? I advise you stay within your Mascot castle, if you leave, the peasants will pitchfork you:*

Long memories;)

:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Take five]

Can the FED EXEC Please elaborate on 3 things?

1.In the latest email from QF management they are quite happy with the agreement in principle with the ALAEA on.
Total lifting of restrictions on QF use of fixed term contract employment.

2. Can you clarify which grades will still have restrictions of entry
Using only Service Points

3.Why is there no transparency, on
Vacancies in each grade, and waiting list numbers

All of these questions need to be addressed urgently before the feedback meetings

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

inside trader

for your well thought out speech,dynamic this and that ,a changing world,etc,blah blah blah ,guess what ?,aircraft are still in the old world ie the 747 is a 40 yr old design that still needs highly skilled,highly trained personal to maintain them,these same people have had a pay rise that averages out over 2% pa over the last 8 yrs,hardly butting inflationary pressures on the economy,it's the likes of yourself that have created this inflationary,ie i went to UNI so i must be bad far better than anybody else out there,get a grip.
With your well paid job your family should be able to pay for a nice funeral for yourself if ever your are on a flight that hits the drink,due to the lowest bidding MRO maintaining your aircraft that you are on..

[Konehead]

Insider Trader, how apt - someone corrupt who uses information immorally for personal gain. Says it all really. Although you can only live up to the example set by your CEO.


Never have i encountered such incidious and over-valued rhetoric as i have on these forums

That's rich, coming from a shiny bum who has:
never worked a weekend,
never worked a 12 hour nightshift,
never got his hands dirty
never been exposed to toxic, carcinogenic chemicals and electromagnetic radiation,
and by implication a part of the short-sighted 'corporatocracy' that has brought a world-renowned engineering organisation to its knees.
Have you read the papers recently, finding that working nightshift is a probable cause of cancer? Have you read the statitics that show shiftworkers on average die 5 - 10 years earlier than the rest of the population? Or that they have a higher divorce rate? I ask you, WHAT IS 5 - 10 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE WORTH TO YOU? AND DOMESTIC BLISS? AND A UNIFIED FAMILY?
The average age of LAMEs worldwide is 54. In Aus it's a bit less than that. What premium do you put on EXPERIENCE?
We are NOT car mechanics. The education process bears this out: 6 - 8 years to become a LAME (that's if the idiots in management deign to train anyone on type), then many years working under said conditions above before you can be called a 'good' LAME. How long did YOU spend at uni to gain your new-found 'wisdom'?
We are individually responsible for thousands of lives daily and millions of dollars of company assets, not to mention the 'public goodwill' associated with the worlds best engineering outcome. That's NO CRASHES FROM ENGINEERING DEFECTS, NOT "AFFORDABLE SAFETY". That is one of the few remaining reasons people buy Qantas tickets, busily being eroded by clowns like you.


the AIRC, would look very dimly on any wage rise in the current economic climate. You should consider yourselves lucky to get 3%.

Have you been reading the financial pages recently? National wages growth is on average 4.6%. We took a pay freeze in the past because QF was on hard times, only to have QF announce record profits. We stood by while management carved the heart out of QF Engineering by closing H245, awarded themselves ludicrous bonuses and acted corruptly during the APA bid; while we fought with one hand tied behind our backs to keep an under-resourced and over-utilised fleet in the air.
I would consider myself lucky to be working for VB or JHAS, where LAMEs are truly valued. A single-licenced LAME on shift-work earns $78K. At VB and JHAS it is over $100K. Unlike QF LAMEs their overtime and superanuation are based on their whole pay, not just on their base rate.

Those that wanted war over 5% would have soon found themselves a lifeless mess on the battlefield.
Lying alongside JV, MH, DC, PS, IO etc etc.
If the LAMEs were left a lifeless mess on the battlefield, how do you think Qantas Engineering, and the airline as a whole would be fairing?
We could've done far more damage from within the gates than from without. All we'd need to do is strap ourselves into the strait-jackets that management has made for us - using as our weapons unworkable policy and procedure. Keep that in mind next time you emerge from under your rock.
By the way, have you asked yourself why the CEO had to negotiate an EBA? Something he did in a day or two when his minions couldn't pull it off in 14 months? Oooh and don't let me forget that it hasn't been voted on yet! And there are some very unhappy campers among the LAMEs. The show aint over till the fat lady sings!

Your superannuation entitlement is fairly attractive IMO. At a rough estimate, most managed funds have been returning 12 - 15%pa on average over the past 5 years. I dare say that would probably outstrip the extra 2% wage rise p.a you soldiers wanted.
WRONG!
I compulsorily contribute 4% of my base rate, or 2.7% of my total pay!
The company contributes 5% of my base rate, or 3.5% of my total pay!
That's a total contribution of a mere 6.2% of my total pay!
Salary sacrifice gives me a tax saving of 1.18% on my gross pay. WOOPEE! :rolleyes:
By the way, what's your super plan, Shiny-Bum? 9%? 10%? 11%?
I know this is a rumour network, but the best rumours have a basis in FACT, something you would hardly be acquainted with in your ivory tower.

And as for your 'measly' back pay, you have an opportunity to do something constructive with the bulk sum, eg a voluntary super contribution, more on the mortgage etc. Because i dare say that had most of you got that in your fortnightly wage for the past 12 months, it would have only been spent on beer and ciggies in the pub, while you all got sloshed and romanticised about how 'great' and 'indispensible' you all are.
Is that the best you can do?
We'll have to contribute some of the backpay to our super, to make up for the difference in super contributions we lost while the company delayed for 14 months. That backpay was an interest-free loan to the company. What interest did they earn or save on that? It's money that SHOULD'VE been in our pockets to do with as we see fit. Including piss it up against a wall or light it up. But since I don't smoke or drink, what SHALL I do with ALL THAT GELT? Oh yeah, maybe buy a share in one of those luxury yachts that were left on the slipway after the APA bid fell over.

The reality is people, this is a dynamic industry, and it stops for no one.
Oh excellent! I do hope so. More employment opportunities outside of Qantas, with people who truly value LAMEs. :}
One day, 'market forces' will catch up with Qantas. You learned about those in uni didn't you?

May i suggest that you give the company good reason in the future to want to offer you a worthwhile EBA,
Why yes, stirling advice. We may not be so nice next time. 2010 will be a different industrial environment to 2007/2008. Management incompetence will only be further exposed. They can only stick their testicles out so far before someone kicks them.

The corporatocracy rules the world now folks. Better get used to it!
Sounds like Gordon Gecko in 'Wall Street'. The likes of him got burned quite badly didn't they? No-one has managed to rule the world. Common-sense and the resistance of ordinary people usually prevails. Psychopaths like you come to a bad end my friend.
Come back sometime and we'll chat again when Qantas is an Employer of Choice.

[Short_Circuit]

:cool:

Nice post Konehead :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[chemical alli]

one of my aviation friends the other day made the comment, i feel like something is not quite rite,i feel as if ive been violated but not sure why.

i am still not convinced this is the best offer we could have achieved (thats no reflection on the exec).like many others i have spoken to ,i feel left wanting.
i think its a line ball 50/50 call on the outcome.

[HotDog]

Konehead, I symphatise with your remarks, but:

never worked a weekend,
never worked a 12 hour nightshift, never been exposed electromagnetic radiation

And I'll add another one: Cosmic radiation plus operating on Christmas day New Year's Eve or day.

We are individually responsible for thousands of lives daily and millions of dollars of company assets

You are not the only ones responsible for that. Would you agree that flight crew may have a place in that picture?

[Redstone]

Chemical I agree with your sentiment, I think the reason for the empty feeling is that everyone was tooled up and ready to give the company a bloody nose. The guys and gals were ready for a blue. I think it's a minor form of post traumatic stress dissorder......:E

[600ft-lb]

You are not the only ones responsible for that. Would you agree that flight crew may have a place in that picture?
He did say individually, not singularly.

Allow me to clarify; He, by himself, by the actions he partakes in, could possibly, kill 450people.

So could a pilot.

So could a terrorist.

As useless as my post is replying to you, why did you bother stating that in the first place.. ??

[Konehead]

And I'll add another one: Cosmic radiation plus operating on Christmas day New Year's Eve or day.


Quote:
We are individually responsible for thousands of lives daily and millions of dollars of company assets
You are not the only ones responsible for that. Would you agree that flight crew may have a place in that picture?


I do indeed. Your and your colleagues support throughout has been brilliant. I just hope I can express my support in some way some day.

By the way, I worked Christmas Day and New Years Day last year. Upon reflection, on 9 of 16 years at Qantas I have worked Christmas Day.

[Acute Instinct]

:sad: Look at this fellows eyes. Do you feel the same?

:confused: How about this guy?

:{ Have you had a moment like this out of frustration?

:* Are you sick of feeling angry all the time?

:ugh:This can't be healthy?

:yuk: Are you sick of being fed crap?

If so, you must be a Qantas Engineer! Stand up you gutless bunch of b&stards and fight! Tell your executive to get off the gear and ask what they were thinking! You provide the essential service and have the bull by the balls! But you just cringe around the back end and get shat on! Grab those nut's and pull until respect is felt. Pull until he's weak at the knees, then look him in the eye and explain, it doesn't have to be this way! Prove that things are different. That your exec isn't just a reincarnated version of the dead regime. Even though you may be thinking 'same sh!t, same smell' have faith. In god! He's the only one listening!

[The cougar]

Let us not become yanks and forget history people, past EBA's where the deal on the table has not been that good and we have voted it down ,only to vote yes on a lessor crap deal months later.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Insider Trader sounds alot like the SYD Domestic manager....

He may be the youngest manager in Qantas,but he is also the fattest manager in Qantas,and if he isnt careful,he will die the fattest,youngest manager in Qantas.

Well done Insider,as I am sure you are only hardening the resolve of LAEs.It sounds like they vote is gonna be close.

By the way,what is the percentage required for it to get up/fall down?

[knuckledragger1]

Thankyou ALAEA Exec:), I'm behind you 100% of the way - but for now,
1 vote against.

:suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect: :(:(:(:(:(

[NAS1801]

Oh dear. Looks like some LAMEs are about to bend over and take 3%. 75%(?) of you voted to FIGHT for a better outcome and now you're walking away. Spineless, gutless jellyfish. If this gets up, never expect any other unions within Qantas to support you. Weak as pi$$.

[Insider Trader]

Well, i must say for all your (collective) purported intelligance, you guys really don't seem to get it.

Firstly, for all your uneducated hypothesising, you have no idea as to who i am. The very fact that after 1 post, you pigeon-hole me into the sphere of QF management, says more about the people who post on this forum, and their siege mentality, than anything else. So be it. However, i read commentary (as disjointed as it is) from no more than 20 regular posters on this forum, all of whom inevitably beat the drums of war over EBA 8. At last count, there were over 1400 LAMEs employed by QF. The noisy musings of 1.5% of the licensed population hardly equates to an overwhelming mandate.

The theme of your replies were fairly common. Your lack of a decent wage rise in the past decade, your working of night shift, weekends & public holidays, working with chemicals, and your inherent ability to keep state of the machines in the air under immense duress. If indeed these are issues worth addressing, then why weren't they tabled for negotiation in this latest EBA's log of claims ? At the risk of rattling the hornets nest, no one other than yourselves is interested in the 'sacrifice' you divest in the pursuit of your career. The irony is that some of you notated the answers to your dilemmas by saying John Holland & Virgin would be viable alternatives. The fact is it is a free market, and if you are unhappy with your current employment conditions at QF, then feel free to move to another company on the 'superior' conditions. I'd suggest that none of you will, in part because some of you here are just 'trolls', and in part because the rest of you just want to whine like a 'roller' at idle, telling anyone who will listen how aggrieved you are.

Here is a piece of free advice. The QF LAMEs blinked, and the company won in the battle of EBA 8. You allowed a symbolic meeting with G Dixon, and a subsequent 'in principle' agreement to cloud your judgement, inflating your egos because you had an audience with the CEO. You fell for the oldest trick in the book, and allowed the intimidation of the CEO to fool you into thinking that you walked away the winners, when in fact you walked away with less than what you came for. It is clear that the company does not rate you with the same volume of importance that you guys rate yourselves. And whose fault is that ? May i suggest for EBA 9 that you employ some serious corporate negotiaters, who can see the woods from the trees, and will always play to your strengths.

Seriously, look at the facts. 14 months of negotiation, and this is the result. And you, as a group (however small it may be), have the audacity to snare at the company's 'contemptuous' attitude. I think a good, long, hard collective look in the mirror is called for. And FYI, i will guarantee the vote is carried in the positive by the ALAEA membership. It was an outcome never destined for failure.

Looking forward to the regurgitated, infantile barbs...

[knuckledragger1]

No Problem Domo:)

at least you're taking a stand on something worthwhile!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Konehead]

In the great Aussie spirit of Gallipoli, the Western Front, Singapore and Vietnam I'll go down fighting for a lost cause, while the clowns back at headquarters keep clean, well rested and ignorant of life on the front line while they fritter away lives - and I don't mean the ALAEA executive. I for one think the ALAEA executive have done as good a job as they could under the circumstances, and are only as strong as their membership. They could have gone harder if we - all of us united - had done more. No O/T for a start. When you get the call: 'Sorry, I'm sole carer today', 'Sorry, I'm fatigued', 'Sorry, just cracked my fourth beer'.
But unfortunately, like every crowd, there were those selfish short-sighted peple who couldnt look further than their short-term gain. And stuff the rest of the guys who would've really really liked or even needed to earn a little extra:
But have a conscience.
And morals.
And ethics.
And a grasp of the big picture.
And the ability to read between the legally responsible lines delivered by the executive.
Those who didnt let us all down.
Then there is our worst enemy: our own nature. You have to be a fixer to be an engineer. So instead of working to rule, we got the job done and the aircraft out, albeit late occasionally, and secretly took pride in the fact that we achieved so much with so little.
I think we should all take a bow to the executive for representing all of us, even the rotten apples.
That said, I'll vote NO. Sorry exec, I know you did your best.
It's time for the members to decide. Let the dice fall where they may.

[The cougar]

So NAS1801 what union do you represent that could possibly help us, or are you one of the bottom dwellers seeing what sort of deal the LAME's get so you can leech of our outcome.

Konehed, you must be one of the few that doesn't do O/T but whinged when higher duties bans was part of the PIA. If we bring back O/T bans now its way to late. The only way to go is to use all of our PIA options and also throw in 8 hour shifts!

I'm in if your willing.

[chockchucker]

I think one fact that some of the P.I.A. hawks on this forum are forgetting is that, the ALAEA has withdrawn its intent of PIA. That means it can't just give Qantas three days notice and away we go. The whole process has to start again through the AIRC, at which point the commissioner may well now deny any application for PIA.


I think people are going to have to accept that, as far as EBA VIII goes, it's pretty much check-mate. Better to ratify this deal than to ratify a worse deal in three months time. Then we should re-group and lay plans for a better outcome for EBA IX.


Seriously, is there are more sensible alternative? :confused:

[employes perspective]

yeah we'll show them next time,ah:}

[chockchucker]

You may be right in your scepticism EP but, as I say, is there another more sensible solution at this point?

[Konehead]

Cougar
Konehed, you must be one of the few that doesn't do O/T but whinged when higher duties bans was part of the PIA.
Negative! I used to do overtime regularly, but stopped late last year when it was evident a little pressure needed to be applied on behalf of the executive. And I haven't done higher duties in many months. If asked, my response has been, 'give one of the younger guys a go at it.'

[Konehead]

Insider Trader
After the comments in your first post, there are those who would like to put you in a hole other than one for pigeons. Not me. You can't fit a pelican in a pigeon hole. However:

The noisy musings of 1.5% of the licensed population hardly equates to an overwhelming mandate.

Granted. But where there's smoke there's fire; you need a canary in the mineshaft; you need a flag to see which way the wind is blowing.


If indeed these are issues worth addressing, then why weren't they tabled for negotiation in this latest EBA's log of claims ?

I believe they were, to the humiliation of MH. Time will tell if GD and friends actually takes on board the true state of affairs in Engineering.


The fact is it is a free market, and if you are unhappy with your current employment conditions at QF, then feel free to move to another company on the 'superior' conditions.

I did not say that the competition's total pay were superior to my own. They are, finally, on a par. But it took a decade of service points and two type courses. A brand new LAME in the competition with one licence is my financial equal. Good luck to him. The point I made was not out of self-interest, but the future of engineering in this company. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Further, there is some vestige of loyalty to the company lingering within me, despite the best efforts of the currrent management regime. But I've been around long enough to know that managers come and go. And that's what I'm hanging around for. A change in attitude. What can I say, I'm an optimist.


May i suggest for EBA 9 that you employ some serious corporate negotiaters,

We did, but a negotiator can only negotiate with someone who is willing to negotiate. The company put up the shutters and refused to budge while the negotiator was there. Now is that negotiating in good faith?


And you, as a group (however small it may be), have the audacity to snare at the company's 'contemptuous' attitude. I think a good, long, hard collective look in the mirror is called for.

I think you mean 'sneer'. But I get the gist. If not contemptuous, what would you call the company's attitude? How would you react to a national manager of your profession who has made it clear he has a pathological dislike of the employees he manages, by word and deed? And the aloof, secretive management style is ultimately self-defeating. Have you seen how the new upper management of Air NZ turned around an airline in parlous state? By engaging, respecting and empathising with their workforce. They actually got out of the office and worked beside their employees. Now look at it. This lesson was learned in the US too - Continental if I'm not mistaken.
IT, I hope my arguments have risen above the infantile. I do so pine for your approval.

[Clipped]

Take a comparison of the EBAs negotiated with the other unions within Q and you will see that we have had the best outcome for the majority of members and the least impact on new LAMEs ie a dreaded B scale. They must be viewed in their totality.

Then there is our worst enemy: our own nature. You have to be a fixer to be an engineer. So instead of working to rule, we got the job done and the aircraft out, albeit late occasionally, and secretly took pride in the fact that we achieved so much with so little.

Singularly this is our greatest dilemma. In the face of PIA most of us will still find a way to make planes fly. We know it and worst of all THEY know it.

Just before the PIA have a read of the posts and their tone - there was fear, uncertainity and doubt (thanks Sunfish) and posts questioning 'how long could this go on for'.

Obviously now that PIA is off, the chests are beating and a 'let me at em' mentality is prevailing. There is no doubt o/t bans would have hurt them, and some of us, but we would have another fight on our hands - that is fighting amongst ourselves.

There was a call for cool heads and that remains. Look at the package, do the sums, speak to your accountant and look at the net worth increase. Then go and ask a Q pilot, flt att or office worker what they got, what they gave up - in totality.

Above all, the Executive will support the members 100% if this package is voted down. But will the members support the Executive 100% during the course of PIA. I look around my workplace and I wouldn't trust that support from at least a dozen guys. That is the reality.

I'll say it again - it's an OK offer and there is something in it, 3.5 - 4.5%, over the four years for MOST guys. You can't please everybody, it just does not happen.

We stay on the job, do it well and be a whole lot less cooperative.

Oh yeh, Inside Trader intelligance it's intelligEnce - you twit. You have a lot to learn. Take your head out of the books and look around, yes, there are are humans about.

[NAS1801]

or are you one of the bottom dwellers seeing what sort of deal the LAME's get so you can leech of our outcome.

Yeah you got it.

Each EBA, the company approaches the respective unions saying "Let's fight". (They do not come to us saying "here's 3%, just sign here". There is always a fight to remove nasty clauses / maintain conditions")

Qantas approached the ALAEA saying "Come on, let's fight" The ALAEA says "Alright! It's on". The other various unions say "we will support you in the fight". the ALAEA keeps running around beating their chest saying "Were'e gonna fight the company".

Finally, the ALAEA backs down. So much for the chest beating and talk of taking on the company!

Cougar, Tell me which unions in Qantas have the power to bring the company to it's knees?

You won't find many. One however stands out. I'll leave it up to you to work it out.

I can tell you now, from my discussions with friends working in other parts of the airline, their respective unions were more than willing to back up the ALAEA in the fight. Maybe you should take a read back and find some posts by cabin crew and pilots.

[NAS1801]

Oh and while I am here, the agreement presented is a classic case of divide and conquer.

It looks after just enough people to get the agreement over the line and offers very little to nothing for the rest. As it is, the majority of those that stand to gain most from this agreement are employed in ACS/Line. Those than gain very little are within heavy maintenance.

Divide and conquer, the #1 QF EBA objective.

[another superlame]

This EBA like all the others will be better for ACS/servicing areas while those in heavy will suffer. And those in ACS etc will not give a damn about the others, never have ,never will.
I hope that younger LAMEs and those in heavy maint. will see this EBA for what it is and vote against it. Make the glory boys fight with them for a better outcome for all.
It is a pity JHAS didn't get the A380 because it would have woken everyone up to the fact that they a weak and gutless.
Instead the glory boys will move forward while the rest who do the right thing will get screwed again.
At least with the A380 there will be very restricted licences issued , so in the not too distant future QF will get there way and the LAME to AME ratio will come back down to a more realistic number.
Either way this is the beginning of an all new era and it will have happened by stealth.

[Clipped]

I know there are line heros who would sign up for 5% and send all major maintenance overseas and still sleep at night

Domo - not true.

Syd HM closure is a recurring subject that highlights how callous this mgmt has become. I know the guys I work with have a real empathy when it comes to that shutdown. For those out there who do not feel that way, just look how different it is getting the jumbo's serviceable, the desperation that mgmt have with it's reliability and yet their smugness, that they achieved a dollar saving for shutting down an institution.

Yes, 380,330 and 73NG work has been kept onshore (inhouse?) but with this mgmt, it is a negotiating, cost issue not one of quality. Unfortunately the 'sheds' have always been a place where mgmt can see more immediate savings/flexibilities because of the nature of maintenance. This is not a reason why guys on line feel more insulated or aloof - it's just a different environment.

Because there are different outcomes for individuals it is not necessarily a divide and conquer strategy (think pre/post 96) rather, what do you - you and you get out of it.

What about those clauses that were modified/excluded? We've had a real win there. No CAT A certifiers - big win. These are only some of the non money issues that were successfully negotiated.

You've got to praise these guys for just having to put up with the bullsh*t they had to endure with the Q negotiating team. Until Dixon stepped in and said - do a deal - we would have been at the inflated whims of JM IO MH JV etc.

[No SAR No Details]

It looks after just enough people to get the agreement over the line and offers very little to nothing for the rest. As it is, the majority of those that stand to gain most from this agreement are employed in ACS/Line. Those than gain very little are within heavy maintenance
A question for you NAS 1801 What would those actual figures be then?
How many LAMES are in levels 1 to 8?
How many in 9 thru 12 have the points to move but capped due quotas full?
How many extra training spots will be gained by A330 and A380 maintenance inhouse? (A330 in Heavy Maintenance = licences for Heavy Maintenance)
How many level 13 LAMES will get a kick up to Level 14 due accumulated training points. How many extra spots opened up in the quotas when the
A380 Lames numbers are removed from the quotas.
Double fuel tank allowance = $40 a day or $200 a week for H/M gys stuck in tanks during long checks up from $22 a day.
Maybe the majority will benefit? Tell us the figures o great one.
Or is a flat 5% with no quota adjustments for the higher grades or bonus points for the lower grades a better option to fight for?

Best option would be to throw the graded wage structure out the door and start with a realistic pay structure similar to Virgin or Jetstar or even JHAS that recognises a LAME at a much higher starting wage.

[Short_Circuit]

Well I guess this battle is over with low casualties, but the WAR is not over by any means.
Time to rape & pillage (take the spoils of EBAVIII) and prepare for the next battle of the war,
EBA IX is on the horizon.
Valuable lessons leaned this stouch will prepare us for a more even handed clash.
New allies perhaps, with a common resolve.
A clearer outlook on the Aviation industry future, who has survived and who has not.
MRO's & outsourcing what it has meant to us.
New management as their 5 year cycle will be up.

We were told things will change fever and I believe it has done just that.
We were screwed hard as a 5 dollar h0re by management thugs.
The way QF have treated their engineers will leave them with tarnished loyalties possibly forever.
Ongoing dispatch reliability failures will be the order of the day until some
trust is restored between Staff & Management.
We will be taking "5" more often now, taking a meal break, fatigue breaks, etc.

:pI have not worked O/T for 8 months and I feeeel good! :p

:DTo the ALAEA, start planning NOW for the next run in.:)

:rolleyes:To "QF A380 Pty Ltd", don't look for backup when times are tough, cause I don't give a dam..:yuk:

:=To the scabs, :ouch: POW - BAM - SMACK!

[knuckledragger1]

Good post, SC:)

We also have to get our wayward bretheren Smackheads off the Smack all the "can do" LAMES seem to be taking.

It speeds you up and you're on a high :}

WOW you feel so gooooood:}.

"I'm a good boy i am" "look at me!, look at me!"

see how fast/good i fixed that one:}

Only thing is you have to pay for it somewhere.

When the high wears off, and it will,

look at your payslip,

show it to ya missus and explain how your wage went down this year, again.

how the super missed out on 15 months of accumulation for nothing:hmm:

Take off the rose tinted glasses,

and through those glazed eyes glance at your workmates.

do they share in your GLORY and congratulate you? do they laud your virtues?

or is it something else you see in their eyes?

Wake up gentlemen!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Acute Instinct]

What a waste of life to never know or realise your actual worth!

It is a coward who will not fight for what is fair and right!

Existence. Is this the how to live?

To take the time and energy to be involved in a forum such as this, to mentally play out your courage and fears suggests much. That it's not about the money. It's not about terms and conditions. It's about YOU! That demoralised state of mind that you see in your collegues eyes. The same feeling you are most familiar with. The internal devastation. The costs to you are immense. To say this mentality is not affecting you in your free time would stretch the truth. Be true to yourself. It is dominating lives. Affecting those around you.

To be bullied, lied to by those you trust, and then stabbed in the back over many years is going to affect most.

The simple example of the little man bullied in the school yard. Son, the only way your going to stop this is to train. Train some more until your good enough to win. Then fight!

Win? It's not about your son's victory. Something to brag about at the pub. It's about him being free. Reclaiming his right to freedom. To lift oppression. To be respected. Not dismissed. To claim what is rightfully his. His right to live.

[bandit2]

Remember in past EBAs when the previous union suggested we accept & we`ll live to fight another day??? TODAY IS THE DAY!! Record profits forecast, 1.4 billion!! I bet both my plums on management not having to jump through the hoops we`ve had to jump through for 3% plus. Lets breakbreak this 3% mentality, average pay rise in Australia is 4% to 5%. By the way DC gave himself a 50% pay rise. F*^k them.

[600ft-lb]

Now that the scabs are all but surplus to requirements;

Do they still get paid ?

Will they be paid for the 6 month contract ?

Do they get their $40k bonus ?

Or will they be dropped like a hot potato in the true Qantas Management style ?

I'm guessing the latter .. :D

[The cougar]

CLAP CLAP CLAP bravo gentlemen!
We were all at the rowers in 98 when the damaging pay system we have now was largely endorsed by all the Heavy guys who thought that we will
never get another license and the 4 point 4 year system will still ensure
pay rises for years to come.
NAS1801 the people in Base new it was a bad deal but got out voted, live
with the decisions you have made.

[another superlame]

There wont be anymore 330 licences for heavy ,they trained up a few when Brisbane opened up and knowing that they want to reduce the LAME AME ratio I reckon that they trained up more than enough.
Which is unfortunate for any up and coming new blood.
I was told yesterday that a lot of students at Aviation Australia are knocking back employment at Brisbane HM because they are being told not to expect to become licenced for a long time.
So once again QF will find it hard to fill the gaps. Not good when they are advertising for 330 MRTT conversion work.

[1746]

Re the scabs, WHO CARES?
They have their 30 pieces of silver and good luck to them. The price they all have had to pay is their own conscious!
QF management couldn't care less about them, even less then they do for you and me!
"What has to be realised is that "QANTAS is a business that just happens to be an airline"! quote un quote!
Until management realises that LAMEs are an asset and a vital part of the business there will never be any peace!
Treat us with respect and let us work together for the best outcome, or continue to disenfranchise us at your own expense!!!!

[another superlame]

So far the scabs have been lucky to get money for nothing. They took a gamble just like Qf did. It turns out that their gamble has paid dividends by not having to show their faces.
But they will still be on the QF payroll until this EBA is signed sealed and delivered, so it might yet backfire.
And for QF, well it has just been a small cost that can be written off as insurance.
They have been used as pawns, as simple as that. They have served their purpose with Qf. Qf will not give a flying f#*k what happens to them now.