Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[AEROMEDIC]

I don't believe that's he's from Tasmania anyway.

The people down there are much more friendlier.

I've lived there .........

[EWANQF]

Quote" Generally, most connections these days are broadband".Not me I'm still Dial up.Steve,I've been talking to the VB and JQ guys there is no contigency plan by QF .These blokes will need 1000 Lames minimum to work the QF system.VB and JQ don't even have half this.If QF r 2 succeed in any plan it will need CASA backing.Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.:ok:

[The Colonel Lives]

Sorry mate I don't want to appear rude but your kinda right. IP addresses do remain reasonably static with broadband cos people usually leave it always connected, the IP address will always change if a reconnection occurs unless yr paying for a static.Anyway while I've got your attention just wondering, you have been debating on this thread about 5% pay increase. The unions tactic has been o/t ban and 4 hour stoppages to force qf's hand.Have you ever considered that it may cost you a loss of 10% pay to get 5%? ie,deduction of average o/t worked and 4 hour stoppages. At this stage from my rough workings that some Engineers may have already lost the first years 5% and started on the 2nd. I don't think anyone will win Net) out of this debacle, the union can't back down or they will disapoint and lose membership. Then again I suppose for some its no longer about money. Everytime I bring up this fact in this thread it is met with stun silence. Remember that the your union has an agenda also, which is survival, which will kick in when they try to convince you that "this is the best we could do for you, please accept it." The union is a business and must constantly weigh up the risk balance to defend members and survival, I know of this experience first hand from the ALAEA a couple of years ago. The union must remain solvent to fight for you again another day as EBA 9 is just around the corner. Your union prelonging the debate will cost the membership more and more money to be involved ie.o/t bans and asking CASA to cancel QF CAR 35 authority probably won't help.Once all the bravado from both sides is over I think the costs for the result will surely not be worth it for most of the ALAEA members and QF. I'm not union bashing here and certainly not pro QF or saying give in but just analysing a few points for consideration so you know where you stand to make future decisions.
And FOG, NICs have nothing to do with your ISP IP address allocation and yes i don't really care too.

[EWANQF]

Mate,I've got 30 years to go.And I would like a descent wage for my kids if the want to follow my Footsteps:ok:

[1me]

Guys n Gals..we have been patient thus far. A little information can be a dangerous thing; especially when used incorrectly.

Don't believe everything you hear or read unless it comes from the mouth of an ALAEA Rep or has an ALAEA letter head and signature.

Misinformation is contagious. Stay the course and be patient. We need to trust in the efforts and the strategy of our Executive and not pre-empt tactics or outcomes.

It's easy to be frustrated at what we see as stalling, but as Fed Sec said, there is so much more that we are not privy to.

And in all seriousness, whilst it also confounded me a little when I first heard of it, the decision to not act during WYD/school hols etc shows the public that we are genuine in not wanting to subject the public to any more inconvenience than is absolutely necessary. Public support and perception may yet prove to be a crucial weapon in our arsenal.

Some may not agree and that is their prerogative.

[Ngineer]

Colonel, I appreciate your arguement that those that regularly do O/T are not making as much money during PIA. But really mate, you cannot rely on OT to pay bills. Especially when QF is constantly trying to reduce costs by abolishing it. When you have'nt had a pay increase in 2 and a half years, its easy for someone to rely on OT more and more without noticing it. And this is not right or fair. Where will these ppl be when OT dries up?
The only thing you can rely on is a fair basic pay. I know licensed guys earning below 70k, and thats with shift!!!
We are not asking the earth, just trying to honestly keep our heads above water.

[QF94]

EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO 5% SEEMED LIKE A REASONABLE OUTCOME.


That was a long time ago.

NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, I, FOR ONE WILL NOT VOTE YES FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN 10%

Other operators are offering at least this amount.

The cost of living is going up, day by day, on everything that we do.
Look at the price of groceries, power, fuel and everything else. They are all going through the roof.

If our Union think that the status quo of our original claim will stay the same, they need to have more feedback meetings with us before even trying to negotiate another substandard Offer In Principal again.
It is not the Licenced Engineers fault that this fiasco has gone on for this long without settlement. It is squarely on Qantas’ shoulders what will transpire from here on. The shareholders are not going to be happy.


I can understand your frustration Take 5, but unfortunately, our claim all along has been 5%, no more-no less. To change this now will only blow ourselves out of the water, and get everyone off side with us, as we will be seen as being greedy, and give FOG FOD all the ammunition he needs to screw us to the ground and get his team of spin doctors working overtime to blacken our name for his cause.

On another note, if anyone watched Air Crash Investigation tonight, you'd have noticed that the cause of the AA DC-10 at Chicago back in the 70's was caused by management shortening a pylon inspection check which saved them 200 man hours per aeroplane, therefore saving the shareholders a great deal of cost (in the short-term). This unfortunately led to the deaths of all 273 people on board, the loss of an aeroplane and the share price diving 20%. Sounds like this is being revisited by FOG FOD with maintenance being out sourced to save the shareholders some money to increase profits.

Maybe our management need to watch some of these shows to understand the consequences of their actions, not ours.

Due to the talks collapsing today between the ALAEA and QF management, looks like we'll have to brace ourselves for a long drawn out saga that may not end too well for all involved.

[The Colonel Lives]

Fair enough, then your intentions are admirable.

[1me]

Colonel I hear what you are saying but if 3% is company wages policy then it should apply equally to everyone.

Good leaders are able to lead by example. IMHO

[1me]

I can understand your frustration Take 5, but unfortunately, our claim all along has been 5%, no more-no less. To change this now will only blow ourselves out of the water, and get everyone off side with us, as we will be seen as being greedy, and give FOG FOD all the ammunition he needs to screw us to the ground and get his team of spin doctors working overtime to blacken our name for his cause.

We are not legally able to increase our demand above our original log of claims as far as I'm aware..

[Big M]

Have you ever considered that it may cost you a loss of 10% pay to get 5%? ie,deduction of average o/t worked and 4 hour stoppages. At this stage from my rough workings that some Engineers may have already lost the first years 5%


I note your points, but up till now the only LAME's to have "lost" anything are the ones who have taken part in a work stoppage. 4 hours pay per stoppage. Not being involved in overtime certainly cannot be classed as 'losing" something. This is work over and above the allocated 38 hour week and by not helping out a poorly managed, understaffed system is not a loss. Sure, there are some amongst the LAME's that love to come to work on days off and stay back after shift. They get payed extra money for doing so. At most stations/Bases you will generally find that it's the same core of blokes who do the overtime - good on them and good luck to them - they've decided for whatever reason that they will give their free time up in exchange for extra money. Some need the money for "noble" causes such as putting kids through school, child support, donations to charity etc.

However there would be an equal amount of this 'core' group whom do overtime to spend the money on wine, women, hookers, beer, cars, gambling etc, etc. This just about covers the "core" of people whom are involved in regular overtime yet don't forget that as always there's a majority who are more than happy with their 38 hours a week (and in some cases a 'rostered' overtime component of approx 0.5hrs/week) For example, in the last 2 years, I have not spent one extra minute at work than my roster allows for. I work hard and give everything while I'm there, yet just have other things happening in my life and don't have a reason to be there when my employment conditions doesn't call for it. I have no doubt that as a gruop we're definitely worth a 5% pay rise and as our agreement would be backdated for the past 18 months, the overtimers would get this increase on all their past O/T. Believe me when I say that there are lots and lots of LAME's such as myself whom don't need nor want overtime and after the start of the overtime bans some of the regular 'core' of overtimers have found other things to do and ways to manage without the O/T money and will probably never go back to it.

:ok:

[YOSHI]

Did you hear that the insurance paid out $25mil more for that DC10 than it cost? And the small amount the company was fined?

DC and his Team are about managing risk to maximise profit, not about maintaining maxinum safety!

Fly Safe.............

As the company says 'Take 5'%.

[QF94]

Did you hear that the insurance paid out $25mil more for that DC10 than it cost? And the small amount the company was fined?

DC and his Team are about managing risk to maximise profit, not about maintaining maxinum safety!

Fly Safe.............

As the company says 'Take 5'%.


Yes, AA was fined the princely sum of $500,000.00 The $25 million doesn't bring back those that are lost, the lost aeroplane or the reputation one held due to cost cutting to maximise profits for shareholders that have nothing to do with the operation of the airline, or any company for that matter.

[idydir]

loose lips sink ships - five percent

[mel applied]

spend the money on wine, women, hookers, beer, cars, gambling etc
Sounds like any man I ever knew.

[inthefluffystuff]

EWANQF

Mate that is the trouble you are getting a DESCENT wage.

[BIG TITS]

Is that the wage you get for going down?

[REALITY]

Don't loose focus :)

O/T is only worked regurlarly by about 10% of the workforce. The other 90% don't do any, or very little at least.

This means that 90% of the workforce are loosing nothing other than the occassional 4hr stoppage. This is why this campaign is so painful for Qantas.

LAME's are basically loosing nothing on average, and QF are cancelling hundreds of flights, delaying hundreds more and destroying their commercial relationships with many of their customers.

We will win the fight for better wages. No doubt.

Follow the guidance from your executive, they are the ones on the front line and know the intimate details.

Why we are at it, spare a thought for the QF employed executive members who are under a strong and constant personal attack from QF engineering management. The damage done to their careers is huge. However they will fight to the end no matter what the personal cost is :D:D

[pablo m]

ok so we get 5%... or 3% with sweeteners.... or whatever. The day after the EBA is signed, we still don't have enough people on the floor, we still lack training, we still have disengaged management and staff, we are way behind the 8 ball in regards to the deferred etc work on the aircraft, the 380 introduction is a disaster waiting to happen, the Dreamliner is just that, a dream, the cert 4's still aren't paid, the stupid procedures are still there, we are still set up to fail...etc etc, and other eba's are around the corner

('we' means anyone wearing QANTAS on their chest!)

please, ALAEA, consider getting a delegation together of executives, LAME's, seniors, Supers, DMM's, other department staff and push for a meeting with the board - do they really know what the blazes is happening???!!! what they stand to lose??

I am not going down without a fight - push us too far and I'll be on the 7:30 report telling it like it is.

will our current management be the death of QF engineering as we know it?? or are they just cutting us to the bone to sell us out.

I need to see our side of the story out there, now!:ugh:

[Konehead]

How about getting some of those security guys involved when we discover suspect wiring on aircraft out of overseas MRO's.

I remember working on OGI(?) with an ex-engine line LAME. He found the fire loop wiring incorrectly routed! He contacted Maint Watch and the B767 Maint Watch guy came down and inspected the engine. When he saw it he spat the dummy. He'd apparently been banging on to management about the defects they're coming out of the Welsh "Centre of Excements" with. I bet the report he wrote got buried.

[Konehead]

Have you ever considered that it may cost you a loss of 10% pay to get 5%? ie,deduction of average o/t worked and 4 hour stoppages.
Only a small percentage of LAMEs regularly work O/T. A larger number may come in when they need a bit extra for that holiday or new lawnmower etc.
The extra 2% in our paypacket is the equivalent of coming in on O/T for two days per year. I would rather stay at home than come in for the extra money, year in year out.

Average O/T is incorporated into some rosters therefore is not lost.
But really mate, you cannot rely on OT to pay bills. Especially when QF is constantly trying to reduce costs by abolishing it. When you have'nt had a pay increase in 2 and a half years, its easy for someone to rely on OT more and more without noticing it. And this is not right or fair. Where will these ppl be when OT dries up?

If the only way we can operate currently is with O/T, then how will we go as the fleet expands? I doubt O/T will be abolished, because it's cheaper to pay O/T than employ more staff.

[Konehead]

ok so we get 5%... or 3% with sweeteners.... or whatever. The day after the EBA is signed, we still don't have enough people on the floor, we still lack training, we still have disengaged management and staff, we are way behind the 8 ball in regards to the deferred etc work on the aircraft, the 380 introduction is a disaster waiting to happen, the Dreamliner is just that, a dream, the cert 4's still aren't paid, the stupid procedures are still there, we are still set up to fail...etc etc, and other eba's are around the corner

Go Pablo! Couldnt agree more.

[wake_up_geff]

were holding off our pia over the school holidays but qf hasn't granted our leave so we cant spend time with our families......we seem to be giving far more than were taking...........the only giving from qf is os maintenance and our routes to jetstar.......the scales arent balanced

im voting no to anything other than 5% and all the extras included in the previous eba document...

[Boardman]

Good on ya Wake Up! i'm with you son!
Stick to our guns boys and girls!

[division1]

I think we should leave the media stuff to the Bexley boys and girls.
They are doing a great job for all our benefit.
And meanwhile, more from the Australian...


Qantas plays with fire

D.D. McNicoll | June 25, 2008
JULIA Gillard explained that she was looking a bit eccentric on Sunday morning in Washington, DC, as she had cobbled together a wardrobe after her bags failed to arrive with her.
The airline? Qantas. Her luggage came in later that day. Her bags went missing again last Friday when she flew home. The airline? Qantas. "So this happens to deputy prime ministers too?" Strewth's US colleague asked. "There's no discrimination with Qantas, no discrimination at all," Gillard said with a laugh. "I'm not taking it personally. The amount I fly, I think it's the law of averages." But will she tackle Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon on the matter? She laughed that off, too, but with something of a steely glint in her eye.

Wondering if that was also blamed on the lame PIA :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[ejectx3]

Word on the streets is many delays being blamed (in terminal announcements) on Engineering that are nothign of the sort.....

FOD FOG. makes me vomit

[Ngineer]

I personally don't know what the company is complaining about. I noticed that the QF1 left a bit after 10am the other day. Almost 8 hours early!!!! If we just stick to the O/T bans there will be no disruptions. Management have everything under control.:ok:

[vortsa]

Have you ever considered that it may cost you a loss of 10% pay to get 5%? ie,deduction of average o/t worked and 4 hour stoppages. At this stage from my rough workings that some Engineers may have already lost the first years 5% and started on the 2nd

How does it go ... "No gain without pain."

By my "rough workings" if our OLD Executive had taken the approach that the present Executive has, ten years ago, we would be 15% better off now, and that would be allowing for lost income following the 6 months of lost overtime.

Tall buildings survive longer on a solid foundation, our Executive is underpinning our foundations for the future and they have my support.

[Ngineer]

As per news reports, looks like another meeting between ALAEA and QF next Tuesday.

[Short_Circuit]

Lets hope GD & his mob come prepared to negotiate a fair deal so we can get the flying public back in the air, on time and with safety.

[wantsta]

Management have no idea, they think they know whats coming, the truth is, the only thing they have is resources in $$$ and the brand. They are both dwindling by the day, sit back relax and smile even more and know that the back of this management will be "Broken" ultimately from members who came through the ranks of LAMES. If that doesn't make one smile, I'm not sure what will. Keep up the good work, Steve, Wes and the Wookster.

[blubak]

Anyone shed any light on this?.Cant seem to find any info-is it true does anyone know?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I don't know if there is a meeting on Tuesday, if that helps. There may be a meeting though, the parties are looking into it.

[blubak]

Fedsec-what does 1st sentence of ur reply mean?
Are qf looking for the meeting? Maybe starting to understand we are serious!!

[Konehead]

"We welcome the ALAEA's decision not to strike during World Youth Day events, but they would also need to list their overtime bans and go slow campaign to truly minimise disruption to our passengers," Mr Borghetti said.
Pope's visit halts Qantas dispute | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23958596-12377,00.html)
If I hear this ONE MORE TIME from a Qantas executive I will represent the remark. If they wanna keep accusing me of going slow, then so I will. Reap what you sow motherf*ckers!

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas Airlines executive general manager John Borghetti said the company was disappointed that an agreement could not be reached today.

How the hell can we reach an agreement when Qantas will not negotiate. This is an EBA, Enterprise Bargaining Agreement, there must be some bargaining for it to work, not dictatorship?

[acslame]

Konehead, I agree.
This "go slow" is killing me.
If I keep getting accused of it
i will start to "go slow"!

Maintain the Rage

[The Colonel Lives]

Thanks for your comments mate. I got the impression that O/T was rife thru QF from some of the threads posted and QF depended on it to keep the business going. Thats why I asked the question re losing 10% to get 5%. After reading the latest threads it appears this is not the case, then I would question why the union have decided this as a course of action if it will have so little impact. I suppose it can only be one way or the other, well I could probably sit on the fence and say the guys that do large amounts of O/T would probably experience a net loss for the 5% and if you do no overtime you're laughin(so to speak). Certainly going to be hard to get anything outta QF in the current environment(re oil Etc), lousy timing to try and ask for a pay rise, tho really QF have done all the stalling. Just wondering for comment, this EBA expires soon and really the only thing yr fighting for is essentially back pay. Soon it will be time to negotiate EBA 9, which means that PIA may become a normal day to day business propostion for QF at this rate. It also may force QF to either bite the bullet or do something like change procedures to match JS or VB to get efficiencies, which I am suprised that they have not already done. Retiring old A/C and taking delivery of new ones will allow them to operate under a MSG3 maintenance program (like the 737NG) which could cut their maintenance requirements in half. I would not doubt that this has not crossed their minds at some stage and there could be projects in the pipeline to implement this. Then again, I could be over-estimating QF intelligence as well.

[F.O.G.]

If I remember correctly, towards the end of Jimmy Bow-Tie's reign we had a "flog off" between Darth and the 'large' dude who went and caught the ANZ hospital pass for the keys to the kingdom. Once Darth had despatched dough-boy he started to make the announcements and Bow-Tie took a back seat most of the time.

Didn't see PG's name on that press release?

Does this mean the Italian Stallion is our new CEO?

I doubt he'll be any better than Darth but I suspect the other bloke would be MUCH worse!!


As to the three week 'no stoppages' what a genius stroke. The network will only get worse and it's NOT our fault joe public, we're the good guys!!



Oh, and Borgs, be VERY careful what you say to the press or you might just get that go-slow you twits keep talking about.....and then the damn network will STOP !!! :=

[F.O.G.]

Colonel,

Sadly the clowns running the show actually believe Boeing and scarebus when they get told the new ones only need to be maintained once a year.....

So they plan on making us leave because we hate the place they've created.....thus saving redundancy payouts.

Shame is, using that system there'll be nobody left when the scarebuses that were the flight test units arrive ( oh! but we got them cheap! ). Also a shame they never asked Virgin Atlantic what their 340-6's were like when they arrived from the flight test camp.............MEGA HOURS of rectification and over a year before they flew straight!!

But then what would engineers know, they ain't got educashon and MBA thingies like wot the boffins runin the show ave.....ave dey ?

sheesh.

[upsidefront]

Colonel
I would just like to add to KoneHead's response re o/t.
Yes only a few LAME's do o/t BUT the one's that do, do loooooooooots and looooooooooots.
So it is true that Base, for one, only survive due to sh!t loads of o/t being worked by a few LAME's and that is why the bans are hurting so much.
This :mad::mad::mad: talk about go-slow............:ugh::ugh:

[sfde]

Online manuals, Policy and procedures, OH&S and you think we implemented a go slow. Time we got some 2 hour lunch breaks as well. As a shift of course so we can discuss the tragedy map.

[max1]

Amos,
You must have been on the really good wages then. Are you one of those legacies blokes that GD keeps whinging about.

[Jets on]

Colonel,
For you and all the knowledgeable ones, most people with some hand skills can repair an old Holden, but it is a totally different ball game to repair/troubleshoot a modern high tech computer controlled vehicle. Unfortunately our know all managers don’t seem to be aware of this fact, that the more technical an aircraft is the more skilled the workforce have to be and the more training required to maintain these high tech aircraft. As has been stated before, the so called strategy people still believe the manufactures that you don’t need many LAME’s for their maintenance. The factories still can’t get the a/c into service let alone guarantee trouble free maintenance.
It has become difficult to retain AME’s who are the future of our profession, due to poor wages and ‘no training policy’, so one wonders how or who the company thinks will keep them flying.
I suppose they feel they can get them checked in Lax, ready for the morning departure in Sydney.

[Jethro Gibbs]

We welcome the ALAEA's decision not to strike during World Youth Day events, but they would also need to list their overtime bans and go slow campaign to truly minimise disruption to our passengers," Mr Borghetti said.
WHY give them a break for the pope as chopper would say you need to HARDEN THE F%^& UP.

[F.O.G.]

There are many things one could say preceeding this news story;

You get what you pay for, who's doing the work in LAX, why are aircraft engineers paid good money, etc, etc, etc.

Suffice it to say, this one guy alledgedly fitted a part that was 'almost' the right one. He is now facing a VERY uncertain future, along with the manager of aircraft maintenance and a few design guys.

TAKE NOTE ALL, ESPECIALLY YOU, DAVID COX.

If LAX, MAS or heaven forbid one of us screw up....you go to jail too!!!!

US airline to stand trial for 2000 Concorde crash - Breaking News - World - Breaking News (http://news.smh.com.au/world/us-airline-to-stand-trial-for-2000-concorde-crash-20080703-31cx.html)

[QF94]

Continental Airlines and its workers are charged in connection with a failure of aircraft maintenance.
The two employees, both US citizens, are John Taylor, a mechanic who allegedly fitted the non-standard strip, and the airline's chief of maintenance Stanley Ford.

Shame this couldn't extend up the chain to FOG FOD. DC would be a good start though if the unthinkable were to happen to a QF aircraft!

[mozza1972]

The ALAEA is showing alot of goodwill by no action in a damm busy time for QF , sadly I couldnt see QF management ,with thier history during negotiations ,doing the same....Hope it dosent backfire on them !!!!! :hmm:

Or I hope the action will change if any more ****e tactics from QF...

[Toolpants]

Don’t worry too much about no PIA during a very busy time.

It the OT bans are hurting QF this much now, imaging the chaos the OT bans will have for WYD.

Not to mention sick leave figures are rising every week.

July 2
Scheduled.Tracked.Departed.Cancelled/15-30/30-45/45+/Ontime
503.......... 472 ......433 ...........39 /....89 /....56 /90 /46%

July 3
Scheduled.Tracked.Departed.Cancelled/15-30/30-45/45+/Ontime
505.......... 443....... 424....... 19.... /75... /38 ...../45 /63%

[another superlame]

I have just read an article on the Boeing website that are now are full 737NG repair station in Brisbane. Meaning that they can do all heavy and line maintenance work at Eagle Farm and Amberley. The timing of this brings up a little red flag to me.
Am I reading between the lines too much? I am not trying to stir the pot but I thought it to be interesting and relevant to the current issues at hand.

[Keg]

Whilst the ALAEA are working hard on their case, QF is also working hard on theirs....

KEVIN Rudd....was playing pop-in and gladhand everyone (at the State of Origin) when Strewth spotted him in the Qantas VIP box. Qantas chief financial officer Peter Gregg, hosting the evening in chief executive Geoff Dixon's absence, wasn't serving dagwood dogs but rather more up-market nibbles such as battered prawns and miniature quiches. Kev08 didn't stay for long but Treasurer Wayne Swan settled in for a comfortable sojourn.

Be aware of who the PM and the Treasurer are beholden to.

Story here. (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23964887-25090,00.html)

[YOSHI]

5% or redundancy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As we have shown so far, we are patient, we will wait.

The question is, can QF afford to wait?

[blubak]

He says he is disappointed it wasnt settled today-well,so are we.
B in eba means bargaining,negotiating means a very similar thing.Maybe he has got a few ideas to bring the parties closer together.If he has-lets hear them and all the bans/limitations can go away and we can move on.

[ballhopper]

5% or redundancy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


mate you are a drama queen
the point of getting 5% is to stay there and enjoy the pay increase

[SpannerTwister]

Is it true they have XXLD all the BNE redundancies ?


SpannerTwister

[PerBro]

"stop goin slow you LAME"s"
slow
slow
these people are off the pace!!!!
they don"t know what slow is!!!!!
buckle up boyz/gals this ones goin the distance,with a points
decision in the 12th.......
ALAEA wins by a nose and someone from J* joyns the fray?????
sorry spagetti maybe next company:rolleyes:

[Toolpants]

Msg from Dennis Ratcliffe
GGM People
"....no request for annual leave (that includes Annual, Long Service, Days in Lieu and Rostered Days off) will be granted in this period....."


I though we were entitled to Rostered Days Off because we worked more than the 38 hour week. If QF are now removing these RDO’s, haven’t they now gone outside their legal boundaries and forcing staff to work more than the 38 hour week.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We are taking them to the AIRC for the RDO issue. Waiting for a date.

[vortsa]

Keg

I liked the other paragraph in the article:-

Hawke's ace in the hole

FORMER PM Bob Hawke has had his second hole in one in the past 12 months, the third of his career. The Silver Bodgie, a fit-looking 78, last week aced the 144m par-three 16th hole at Sydney's Bonnie Doon club, where he plays in a regular weekly four-ball with three mates. Labor's longest-serving PM, who plays off a handicap of 23, had a hole in one on the 156m 12th hole last September, on the morning before he had lunch with former US vice-president Al Gore. His first HIO was in Canberra in the late 1980s.

Plays every week... has 2 holes in one twice in 12 months....a total of 3 in career.... and still on a handicap of 23 ????? I think his figures are as rubbery as they were when he was in parliament.

Maybe the rest of the flight has to have lie detector test?

Maybe the club puts on free drinks when some one gets a hole in one?

Cheers.

[vortsa]

But then again ... people with money and influence are always believed.

[Dr Itzfukt]

Hows the other earth magnet OJS going in Syd? Heard it's a bit on the nose.

[Millet Fanger]

I had a laugh (typo - look) at OJS on my way to attempting to get some consumables from the tool crib. Nil Stock again - better get tech services to draft up an EA for an alternative. 5 minute job done in 2 hours, chew up tech services time as well, but QE management know how to run the place at an 'amazing' pace. And they blame US for going slow!!

Anyway, back to OJS. It's still well and truly stuck. Don't know where the fumes are coming from. Hit and miss - numerous engine runs, ducting out, ducting in, engine runs, remove all a/c ducting, 'melt down' trim air mufflers (nil stock Boeing) - two weeks later still clueless. Thank goodness the ops managers have been calling all the shots. They are worth the $2 million that Qantas is paying them to keep the place running.

I don't think we need to take any PIA. Management's actions, past and present, are shutting down Qantas Ops all on their own.

[Toolpants]

ALAEA Fed Sec: -We are taking them to the AIRC for the RDO issue. Waiting for a date.-


Thanks for the quick reply Fed Sec.
I should have known you'd be onto it.

Keep up the sensational job.

[division1]

Thank goodness the ops managers have been calling all the shots.

Let the ops manager sign it off as well.
They may not get away with the stunts
they pulled as lames in this environment.

[spreader]

A quote from todays Sydney Morning Herald pg 10 "Singapore police had issued an international red alert about the man, whose initials police gave as MH. He is understood to have been an associate of Osama Bin Laden"

Draw you own conclusions people, to me it explains a lot.

I wonder if GD is also under investigation? We all know he is doing his best to destroy one of Australia's greatest icons.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Late notice just issued. Pls pass word around.

Apologies for a notice being issued late on a Friday afternoon but a couple of urgent matters need to be highlighted.


Tank Entry

The ALAEA have been advised that there is some confusion regarding the application of various Qantas Policies related to fuel tank entry. At the end of the day Qantas Corporate Policy overrides all other documents regarding this matter as it contains the safest standards of compliance to Regulations particularly for first aid and rescue should it be required. Members who disobey Corporate Policy could be the subject of disciplinary action from the airline up to and including dismissal.

This being the case, the ALAEA recommends that only members who have attended and passed the 3 day version of confined space training should be involved in entry to tanks and other confined spaces.



Hong Kong A330 Coverage

Qantas are attempting to send A330 A-checks to Hong Kong. Any member requested to accompany an A330 or any other aircraft outside Australia for maintenance should first contact the ALAEA before making a decision to accept an overseas posting.

[Mstr Caution]

If only there was truth in advertising

YouTube - Qantas Ad - The Spirit of Tomorrow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiAJXAYtyWI)

mc:ouch:

[Obie]

So tell me...once you resolve this dispute...which I am sure you and Qantas will, are you still going to be anti company, or will you be pro company?

Is that a fair question?

[speedbirdhouse]

Operational staff are for the most part not anti company but rather, anti management.

There is quite a difference you know...............

[Mstr Caution]

Obie, I'm not an engineer so I wont attempt to speak on their behalf.

But in my opinion it's possible to be in dispute with an organisation & still maintain a post dispute pro-company stance.

Problem is MANAGEMENT sometimes need a reminder about whats being neglected.

In the case of Qantas, the importance of supporting the community via charitable donations & assistance to special programs is important.

So to the the environment & the impact of company operations to it is important.

So to the initiatives to support Australian sport & developing new sporting talent is important.

So to the Australia's youth displaying talent & excellence in there chosen passion & fields or indigenous Australian's & the communites from which they come is important.

Problem is for some time its the employees & the airline whom have been neglected. So now its their turn to highlight the damaging effects of management decisions & this is the only avenue via which there voice can be heard.

Good luck guys

MC:8

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas engineers are not anti-company by any means.

We are anti-proctologist management, ie the buggery campaign waged against US (as in the leaked e-mail from manager to manager)

Engineers would like nothing better than fix aircraft and make schedule for everyone.

Being hampered at every step by our own management is something we can not understand.

Give us the tools, training and encouragement and we will remain the envy of the worlds airline maintenance operation. Till then, we cant help you.

[qantascampaign]

Workers here for the long haul « Qantas Campaign (http://qantascampaign.wordpress.com/2008/06/29/workers-at-qantas-unite/)

[Bolty McBolt]

So tell me...once you resolve this dispute...which I am sure you and Qantas will, are you still going to be anti company, or will you be pro company?

Is that a fair question?

To ask this you question shows you have no handle on the reason for this dispute.

The original offer included XPT provisions, Re-classification of LAMEs and heavy maintenance roster provisions that could never be voted in.

The guys are PRO Qantas. :ok: I am Pro QANTAS
One of the greatest reasons we are here now is not about 5%, the reason of such a unified QF LAME work force regarding PIA is due the fact they have had enough of the erosion of what many believe is the corner stone of the Qantas brand .i.e. superbly maintained aircraft with a safety record second to none.
I am not saying we are the best or were.
Just that we enjoyed being able to do a job to the best of our abilities without being hampered by the idiocies of a management whom have no operational experience or understanding of what it takes to achieve on time reliability. The perfect example of this is the kaos that overtime bans alone have caused.

We have always been about bums on seats getting away and arriving on time but the current management have no appreciation of the general day to day problem solving ability of the AME and LAME at the front end. The current characters think we need to be corralled into behaviours and responses via the engineering policy manual. Yet the PPM is now a double edge sword that the heavily laden ACS on time reliability labours under.
Borrgetti and Co can say "Go slow" all they like but this is a problem of the ACS management own creation, that nothing, not even puffy chested ops managers can fix.

If and when this PIA ends, management will have to fix a rift that makes the grand canyon pale into insignificants. If they can’t, the place will never operate the same again nor will it be ever be efficient. If the incumbents stay at the reigns, I know it will be me and my work mates who are blamed no matter how much we bend over backwards to make it happen.

So to answer your question. I will be pro QANTAS with an aim to making sure the travelling public get the product they paid for.

As for the 3rd floor. They can go (you fill in the next 3 words)

[Big M]

....and suck eggs

....fly a kite

....spank their monkey

....bugger someones bum

....invent new procedures

....count more beans

....receive more bonuses

....ignore the truth

....kiss murrays arse

....

[Bolty McBolt]

Big M
love your work.

ignor the truth is my favourite.

Could be the subject of a whole new thread.

......inflate a goat ?

......lie some more

......Tell more lies

......Employ more ops/managers?


...... reneg on a deal !!!



FOM

[Boardman]

Well said Bolty.

We are all proud of the Airline and Engineering company WE have built over the years THAT IS Qantas. The Pilots, the Check in Chicks, Cabin Crew, Baggage Handlers, Cleaners,etc. These are the people that made this great company and the brand Qantas.

I am very pro Qantas because as a QF LAME I know I have learned my trade from the best and want to keep the tradition going. It is called pride in your work. The passing on of knowledge and standards to the young Engineers coming up. Very important to QF health.

I am open to ideas from anyone, but when I am basically tied up by a system that has been inserted by inexperienced Managers that refused to listen to us 2 years ago and still won't listen as the whole thing falls apart right in front of them, I will not stand by and just let the whole show turn to ruin.

We are NOT anti QF, we are anti-current management.

These guys come and go like the place has a revolving door. Espescially recently. I can not keep up woth who is supposed to be running the mess.

Musical chairs guys!

As well as the 5% we really need these managers out for the long term good of Qantas. They have done damage that cannot be repaired already, it has to stop before it is too late!

[redrooter]

Gent's
Before I start with my FIRST post....... i must point out that i am totally behind the exec and the majority of the LAME'S nation wide as i am one but we are many.............. (ah the irony).

Now with that said let me give my 2 cents.................... First of all let's cut some fat................

For those So called LAMES talikin about OUR planes ditchin in the dirt (and its only a select few)............................ Pull your F'N heads in. its not goin to happen on my watch. And i know ALL of you feel the same. so y use that pathetic tactic.

i for one might not have the knwoladge or expierience of some of you old skool LAME's and im the first to admit that,i'll also never sign something that i'm not comfortable with my Mother, Father Brother, Sister, Friend or STRANGER flying 30,000 + ft on. and im sure that 100% of LAMES are behind me on that too. So y the F#$k mention it.

As an apprentice which mind you wasn't so long ago i was tought many things............. i can't remember all of those things (as management has filled my head with shmutt....) but i know inetgrity, workmanship and most of all PRIDE was apart of the apprenticeship. i will always remember and obide by those words that once where drummed into my head.

So all i ask is that some of you don't lose sight of what you were once tought and too pass that onto others. As much as i despise what our managment have done/doing to us... i will always have my pride. Stay focused ppl and no matter what we WILL roll on with our heads held high.......... No matter what we are in this together.

5% minumum,,,,

great work exec...

RR

[nut turner]

Fed-Sec your notice is lacking in detail. A quick check last night is difficult to access any information on confined space entry. There is information regarding property areas but it says it excludes aircraft tanks/confined spaces. Can you elaborate more on what the corporate policy says.

[YOSHI]

In reply to ballhopper's accusation of being a 'Drama Queen', let me explain.

5% x 3 years, no less.. And if QF threaten me with redundancy if I do not accept less tham that, I will take the cheque!

Simple really, if I take less than I am worth, they will have again been successful in their 'bully boy' tactics. The omly reason QF have not threatened redundancy in this EBA is they know too many people would take it.

As the company says 'Take 5'%.

[Barge]

:):):):):):)

[redhawk37]

FED SEC Says There are not too many of you that know more than about 20% of what is taking place behind the scenes and the reasons for our decisions and actions.

Who's fault is that genius? Dont forget what the assn's job is nnuts. So what is the other 80% - what is the company offering or saying that Stevie haven't chosen to tell us because it doesnt suit his or your agenda? I cant believe you are so stupid to have said that then again, yes I can. When will people wake up that you guys could not give a tinkers toss about us, you enjoy the game, the fame, and half of you want to be in Canberra! Your no better than srotum face - in fact worse, at least you know what side he is on.

My mail is that the company offered plenty of sweetners last time around and you guys just buried it. Good to see some people are joining me in doing the sums!

By the way, dont bother calling me a stooge, troll etc etc, heard it all before - YAWN! - just answer the questions please! :D

[Mr Invisible]

I'll answer for the fedsec Reddork37

If you want to know more of the detail perhaps you should have run for office in 2006 or perhaps you did and got flogged !!!

I wouldn't say say you are a troll but I would say you are a stooge......... no wait moron

Keep it up boys and girls a Bex you have done us proud so far and we have belief

[redhawk37]

Good to see that you are a real thinker :ok: - perhaps I have been too hasty in judging the intellectual rigor of the current leadership. God help us!

[vicky04]

Tell me something R/hawk why did the the company renege on the in-principle agreement.

[Mr Invisible]

Actually RH37 I am disappointed I snapped at you but I am sick and tired (been a member for many years) of being represented by people who do not support the membership. This crew despite my earlier misgivings have shown that despite the formidable company they face that they will stand up for us at every turn. My friend got stitched up over a staff travel fiasco and if it wasn't for the union he would have a letter on his file and 2 years suspension from staff travel.
I am now actually proud to say to people when they ask what do I do for a crust ? that I am a Qantas Engineer and member of the ALAEA :ok:

[redhawk37]

Vicky, unlike so many others I maintain a reasonable and open mind on these things and I also have people who i regard as friends in the management side. I am actually told by people I trust that the company did not back away from their commitment but it was the ALAEA who have done so because they couldnt sell it to the members - its the reason GD has dug in , because the management feel that the Union has not kept its word.
Of course I was not there so I dont really know but my suit friends don't have an agenda and they actually agree we should have at least the 5, but they say we are dealing through represenataives who have shown themselves to be untrustworthy - I think we need to ask the so called leadership.

Who know's - but I do know from past expirience that assn only tells us what they feel we should know - evidence FEDSEC.

[ballhopper]

Redhawk no need for personal attacks on the fedsec, he is doing what the members want an improved pay offer, when its on the table I will be happy to work sh@# loads of o/t.
But until the agreement is reached, I will stand with the union until we get an agreement that 50%+1 of the membership is happy with.

I am proud how the membership is sticking together to get a result. the ball is in the companys court

Mr Dixon make me an offer I cant refuse

[redhawk37]

Operational staff are for the most part not anti company but rather, anti management.

There is quite a difference you know...............


You are kidding yourself if you think that these kind of statements are clever or show you to be a leader in any way. When will you wake up that we are one company. The opertaional staff,managers, exec's everybody contibutes and for the most part the higher you get in any organisation the more complex the problems become and the more they involve people. Mate I started as an apprentice and I can tell you, each step along the way the problems become more difficult and always involve compromise and sometimes you dont like the compromises you have to make but make them you must. Quit bagging the people with other ideas, supervisors, managers and execs, you might think you have a monopoly on knowing what is the best for the company but I have some bad news for you. We will never become the great company we deserve to be until this negative and devisive thinking changes. It serves only the politicians among us who "divide to thrive" and we all know who they are. Its time the silent majority started to shout down some of you bitter and devisive types - being a clever, articulate and expirienced engineer doesnt buy you respect from anybody - I still remember how those types dominated the company when we were govt owned and they would have led us into distinction long ago.

Grow up and get some respect for people other than yourself - or perhaps starting with yourself.:)

[Redstone]

Grow up and get some respect for people other than yourself - or perhaps starting with yourself.

It's a two way street Redhawke, this disconnect is not of the associations doing of that I can assure you.

[The Black Panther]

Redhawk37
Quit bagging the people with other ideas, supervisors, managers and execs, you might think you have a monopoly on knowing what is the best for the companyEQ
Partsmart
A330 Galleys
Cargo price fixing
APA Takeover
Rescinding customer contracts
IT AMM transition project
Telstra IT monopoly

So who do we bag for these memorable and fiscally destructive decisions?

At least try to put up some debatable arguments. So far you have contributed nothing of value RH37. Negative or positive. Go and do some research before you pop back here.

[Mech-prentice]

You are kidding yourself if you think that these kind of statements are clever or show you to be a leader in any way. When will you wake up that we are one company? The opertaional staff,managers, exec's, everybody contibutes and, for the most part, the higher you get in any organisation the more complex the problems become and the more they involve people. Mate, I started as an apprentice and I can tell you, each step along the way the problems become more difficult and always involve compromise. Sometimes you don't like the compromises you have to make but make them you must. Quit bagging the people with other ideas, supervisors, managers and execs. You might think you have a monopoly on knowing what is the best for the company but I have some bad news for you. We will never become the great company we deserve to be until this negative and divisive thinking changes. It serves only the politicians among us who "divide to thrive" and we all know who they are...

You're right, of course. In a successful organisation, employees at all levels make important and indispensable contributions. It's important - essential - that the engineers on the floor trust management and allow them the room to do their jobs. Particularly when the engineers can't see how the management's actions benefit the company.

At the same time, management are beholden to the engineers to: communicate their plans and motivations properly with them; to ensure they listen to and actively seek out input from below; and to act in good faith and the best interests of all stakeholders (employees, shareholders, the industry regulator, those to whom the company owes a social obligation, etc).

The engineers - and apparently many other operational staff - feel that management have failed in all three of those obligations. Management in fact may (may) have fulfilled the second and third - but without properly communicating that fact it will be lost on everyone anyway. The engineers feel that they've given management (at all levels) the benefit of the doubt time and again in the past decade and followed their directions in good faith only to be left feeling disillusioned and betrayed. That is a failure of management. It's up to management now to repair the "bridge of trust", fair or not.

It seems you're suggesting all Qantas operational staff should sit back and allow management to guide the company where they will without complaint. I infer a suggestion that to disagree with management is to be "anti-company" or somehow treacherous. I'd suggest that dissent is every true patriot's duty. There are many historical examples where leaders have, by incompetence or malice, led their followers to destruction. Enron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron) is a prime example. If more employees had taken a stand and opposed the actions of management then the collapse may have been averted, or at least the effects mitigated. The engineers have a duty to oppose management here, where they see the actions as hurting the company as a whole - including employees. Management in turn have a duty to listen to the engineers' concerns, then either communicate why the engineers' fears are unfounded, or take the criticism on board and fix the problems.


being a clever, articulate and experienced engineer doesnt buy you respect from anybody

Well, not from Geoff Dixon at least.


I still remember how those types dominated the company when we were govt owned and they would have led us into distinction long ago.

There are some who say they did lead Qantas to distinction, and they lament the loss of that quality in recent years.

[acslame]

Redhawk,
The reason SP cannot tell us more than 20% of what is going on
is that the snakes among us will run straight to management and
tell them what our plans are.Sad but true.
Secondly, The time for talk is over. dont cry because people are
anti your views. We took a vote remember. It was 80% in favor
of taking PIA.
Last time I looked that constituted a democracy.
So as a democratic vote took place and you lost, how about
you pick up your bat and ball and come play with the rest of us
and stop giving the exec a hard time for trying to achieve the result
they have been mandated to do by the membership.


Maintain the Rage

[delta 4]

RH37,
I'm fairly certain the Duke of Wellington DID NOT forcast his battle plans to Napoleon at Waterloo, so I'm also fairly sure the ALAEA has much the same intention of NOT broadcasting any tidbits that QF/QE management might sieze upon to the detriment of the cause.

And you can be sure that neither leader gave the full story to the front line troops either............

And MOST certainly not on a public forum where god only knows who is snooping for some intell.

D4

[max1]

Redhawk
People love the feeling that, from management down, we are in this together.

It is galling for people who are continually asked to do more with less and achieve it, that they have to fight for recompense. Whilst those above who have orchestrated the cost-cutting that directly affects the ability to do the job, reward themselves with large payrises.

Any idiot( I've done it) can find ways to cut and modify rosters to save a buck. At the end, does that justify a large payrise for me and nothing for the people who now have to work harder and smarter to attain the same outcome.

Now once I've done this what more can I do to justify my position,bring in more procedures, redefine rosters again etc etc.

As a manager you need to ask yourself.

Is what I am doing in the short/longterm benefit of the business?eg does short term pain justify long term gain.Is this sustainable?

Do I have the background and/or experience to make these decisions, and do I have the trust of the staff to carry them with me?

Am I ACTIVELY listening to the feedback I am getting? Have I set us on a path that is wrong and am loath to admit it due to personal consequences.

In a safety critical area like Aviation, it is always in the wash-up that phrases like ' Pilot pushed on into bad weather in hope'' Pilot continued with approach' ' Engineer was under time pressure so fitted a 'like-type' part' ' Controller missed incorrect readback '. Maybe management should apply this to their own decision making processes, and be self critical after the event.

In being an observer to this thread it seems that the engineers, besides the 5% payrise, are even more teed off about procedures and a lack of spares and training that are foisted upon them, that then slow down their ability to do the job.

Some of these procedures MAY be brought in to maximise safety, but management need to realise that they need to increase staffing, to attain the same result.
As for a lack of spares and training, that is shortsighted w@nk.
Do your friends in suits, count the wins AND losses ,or are they like gamblers who only ever tell you about the wins?

Lastly, if you want to take your staff with you, show them they will have a fair share in the spoils. Talking to a friend in business, who worked in Japan for years. He said the first person to fall on the sword at companies, over large stuff-ups, tended to be the CEO as the CEO took the line that he was ultimately responsible.It was called honour. The guys who did the fuel hedging get a geisha, the guys who are running QE should break out the Samurais.

P.S. Mech-prentice we must have been typing at the same time.

[redhawk37]

I wish I could tow the line but 80% is probably more like 60% truly when you take out the stand over tactics that have been used lately but still a strong majority I have to admit but this leadership will never have my support as long as they encourage, organise and support intimidation and threats against members who argue against the current tactics. This lot are putting our long term future under threat with a mindless and confrontationalist approach that GD is just lapping up. Look around, there will be a lot of folk who are not working here in 2 years from now thanks to this stupidity - ask yourselves then whether it was worth another 1 or 2 %. I mean its insane - read the papers, double digit infation in most economies in our region and oil prices out of control - regardless of GD's salary or shareholder profits (by the way, more of us should buy shares now because I reckon they are a bargain), do you think that the average traveller thinks we are reasonable for holding out under the current economic circumstances, come on people -sanity check here! Lets move on and stop listening to these people who just love the fight for he sake of a fight ro are so bitter and twisted it wouldnt matter if GD left today they would just poor venom and vitriol on the next CEO whoever he or she is. A case in point, I read all kinds of rubbish about the possible internal candidates - but I wonder how many have actually met any of them. I have and in particular JB and PG both seem to be good blokes. Both with working class backgrounds.

I can tell you I personally am hoping for an insider to replace GD because can you imagine what would happen if they dragged in somebody from outside the inudtry or worse still re-cycle somebody from the loopy US airline industry. think about it, have a look at Telstra!

Lets move on I say, take the 3 and the new sweetners and move on. Next time we sit down it will be with a new CEO and a chance for a new start. If we keep on the current track with GD half of us wont be here next time.
:oh:

[AEROMEDIC]

My mail is that the company offered plenty of sweetners last time around and you guys just buried it. Good to see some people are joining me in doing the sums!



You should re-read your mail as you'll find that it's "junk mail".

........and review from whom you get your info. It's amazing how rumours get started with the power of suggestion and wishful thinking.

:confused: :sad: :eek:

[acslame]

RH37
I dont disagree with everything you say.

Yes It is madness.
We would have to be the most conservative union in Aust.
In fact we are not even a union, we are an assn.
To get to the point we are at now, given our track record,
just goes to show the deep seeded dissatisfaction with the
current situation. Really this is about more than 2%

Yes I agree that many of us probably will not be working for
QF in a few years.
Look at what happened to SYD heavy. Employed tues,
redundant wed. All they did was everything management
asked of them. If I worked in tulla, bris or avv heavy I would
be very worried.
They have been constantly threatened for years buy people
who have no idea what they are doing and make terrible
decisions to save money in the short term that cost
the company ten fold in the intermediate.
What has been going on the last 5 years is unsustainable
and something or someone will have to give.

I don't however agree with this so called intimidation.
I haven't seen any. Anamosity towards people who
have been assn reps and have resigned and sided with
the company is more than understandable and leads one to
wonder why they were reps in the first place?
Seems like they used the position to fast track there own career
instead of looking out for the good of there fellow workers.
If you don't believe me just look at where some of our so called
union brothers are now.
The only intimidation I see is by my so called managers
Remember we are not running a buggery campaign against
them, however they seem to think that is OK to single
out threaten and lean on the individual.
This behavior, carried out by our MACS, under instruction from
senior management and IR is illegal at the best of times
let alone during a PIA.
So lets not have any accusations with out taking
into account the behavior of our so called management


In regards to management
Ask your self this, Are you more or less efficiant now than you were
5 years ago?
All we do is what management tell us to do, and yet when things
go wrong or don't work somehow it is our fault DESPITE the fact
that we have told them time and time again how to do things more efficiantly and cheaply.
Tell me this, when was the last time something management did
made your job easier? When did they ever genuinely listen to
there staff and when did they ever reverse a
decision because it wasn't working?
NEVER. Its all just a joke and its is
taking QE on an ever accelerating downwards spiral and what
is there come back? The only one they know, attack
their staff because they really have know idea
about the business they are supposed to manage

Finally the lies.
I can not and will not respect someone who sits in front of me
and blatentley lies to my and my workmates faces!
Not to mention Dicko and co's media releases.
I just wish we could pull a full blown work to rules for just
one day. Just to demonstrate to madness they have created.
Go slow my ass

So
Maintain the Rage and hope to hell things change before
these lying fools do us all out of a job.
And RH37,
I would go so far as to say that 80% of my LAME brothers
think the same way as I do

[SpannerTwister]

Has anyone stopped to consider that he might be right ?

Maybe the company did offer us a great deal at the last meeting yet the el Presidente, Fed Sec and the rest of the executive told the company what to do with their good offer.

Of course, if this is what happened, as rh37 says, we the members would never know.

Qantas management don't officially post on this forum, so what other possible way would they be able to tell us what had happened ?

Which is of course quite unfortunate....Imagine AS AN EXAMPLE, if the company had offered the association 4.99% plus one level, yet the executive told them to stick it in a place where the sun doesn't shine.

The company would probably really like us to know this, that the association was holding things from us, yet they would have no way of communicating with us !!!

If only the company had some way of officially communicating with it's employees .....................

rh...You've got to be joking !!!


SpannerTwister

[FULLY SICK DICK]

Of course I was not there so I dont really know but my suit friends don't have an agenda and they actually agree we should have at least the 5, but they say we are dealing through represenataives who have shown themselves to be untrustworthy - I think we need to ask the so called leadership.




And then you woke up...........

Now I know your full of it. :}

[ballhopper]

Lets move on I say, take the 3 and the new sweetners and move on.

and these new sweetners are?

[2ofsix]

Is it the 1 % extra super for all !!!!!!!!

Is it the 7 % bonus we all get !!!!

Or is the $130,000 we earn which will become reality for all of us

I just had a wet dream !!!!!!!

It will take a lot of sweeteners to get rid of the bitter taste in my mouth!!!!!!

[redhawk37]

Why dont we ask fedsec what really happened :bored: - the company has made several offers as I understand

[acslame]

well you seem to know so tell us

[Sunfish]

The thing that distinguishes spreaders of Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) Like Mr. Redhawk, is that they deliberately INCREASE the level of "unknowns" regarding any situation.

They do this by injecting "Red Herrings" into the discussion, in the guise of giving their "Opinion".

The only way to destroy their credibility is to de-construct their "opinions" into the series of unverified and incredible assertions they contain, one by one.

I've happily done it to a few, but I've just come back from an outback trip and I'm not at my usual computer, otherwise I would rip Redhawk another @rsehole.

Negotiations require trust. Negotiations also involve the floating and entertaining of ideas that would make your hair stand on end..... but they are negotiations, not outcomes. You cannot and must not demand the "'details" of the ALEA's position. That is for the Company to guess at and you don't need to know, because the mere act of telling you will play merry hell with your own expectations and cause you much unnecessary grief.

Do what your Fed. Sec. says, no more, no less.

[Flugbegleiter]

I don't care what the company offers you if it doesn't include 5%. As has been stated, this is about more than 2%. It's about principles and telling the company that we have ALL had enough.

Redhawk37, I know one or two flight attendants like you. You are not the clever, elevated, broad-minded turd you think you are. You assume that everyone else is narrow minded and simple, when really it is you who are blind. Wake up and get a reality check. And wipe that brown stuff off your nose.

[Obie]

So you obviously don't think that your edited post is also abusive?!

[stiffnut]

I agree he's certainly a turd [ ****e, crap, poo no.2 piece of sh$t etc. ]

[stiffnut]

I'm sorry shouldn't have posted that, emotions got the better of me, if you don't walk in my shoes don't post drivel, we have to put up with so much crap everyday it p$sses us all off, all we are trying to do is our job without all the absolute crap that goes with it, never mind that we are underpaid for what we have to do, while all those idiots that make the decisions are paid heaps and haven't a clue as to what is happening at the coalface. Hopefully when scrotum face goes the new guy/gal will come in and get rid of all these f'wits.
Rant over i feel better now. [for a couple of minutes anyway]

[Flugbegleiter]

So you obviously don't think that your edited post is also abusive?!
Yeah, I guess it was :ok: Well spotted, chap!:D

I've had enough!

[chanel1234]

Steeeeeveeen,

IS SAID no no no

[chanel1234]

Steeeeeveeeeen

No more Strikes

I said ......NO NO NO

[chanel1234]

Steeeeveeen

3% 3 % 3% = JOBS JOBS JOBS

yes yes yes

[DELAY 410]

Lets not forget the union is a democracy not a dictatorship we were given the chance to vote on 3% + sweeteners and we, as a body chose to reject the offer, ok, some of us would have been happy with 3%, but obviously not all.
If it is such a good deal why doesn't management take the same deal, let the top brass give back their excessive increases and bonuses and take what they dish out to the rest of us. I sure if GD, MH, DC and all the others got behind their staff,..... bit the bullet during these tough times, ( not just a pathetic wage freeze, after a pay raise ) accepted the conditions that we have to put up with ( upgradeable economy staff travel, not allowed to eat a hot meal in the terminal, salary sacrifice lease cars, bolt on payments, etc, etc ).
If you offered this sort of deal to the top brass do you think they would accept it, hmmmm.

Look at all the hoops we have to jump through now, I remember as an apprentice there was no such thing as having to enter tech logs into the computer, no tow safe, no local area procedures, no online training, no self regulating leave, no self entering EQ, nowhere near as much reoccurant training, no tank entry training, no wing grip, no cherry picker training, and so on, the list is getting endless, yet we still have to do all this stuff and maintain aircraft. They preach OHS and then hassle you when you take 5 and close your eyes while waiting for an aircraft to arrive, lets not forget audits and safety observations, cert4 training, cancellations of leave due not enough staff when we decide not to do O/T, surely there are some stressed engineers around by now.
I know we need some of this stuff, but really when is enough, enough, when can I get back to fixing planes, getting trained on the planes I fix, and actually doing what I was employed to do.
I just want managment to manage the airline and let me do my job with their support, not their hinderance. Stop cutting out the resources that helped us do our jobs and stop putting things in place which make me "go slow" :ugh:, and show some gratitude when the guys go out of their way to get one over the fence with minimal delay.

[chanel1234]

Well done Steven and the ALAEA..../... I think the agreement you have reached will be accepted by your membership.

The Pope agrees,

3% it is

better than nothing

When will you announce that its over

[QF94]

REDHAWKE37 SAID

You are kidding yourself if you think that these kind of statements are clever or show you to be a leader in any way. When will you wake up that we are one company. The opertaional staff,managers, exec's everybody contibutes and for the most part the higher you get in any organisation the more complex the problems become and the more they involve people. Mate I started as an apprentice and I can tell you, each step along the way the problems become more difficult and always involve compromise and sometimes you dont like the compromises you have to make but make them you must. Quit bagging the people with other ideas, supervisors, managers and execs, you might think you have a monopoly on knowing what is the best for the company but I have some bad news for you. We will never become the great company we deserve to be until this negative and devisive thinking changes. It serves only the politicians among us who "divide to thrive" and we all know who they are. Its time the silent majority started to shout down some of you bitter and devisive types - being a clever, articulate and expirienced engineer doesnt buy you respect from anybody - I still remember how those types dominated the company when we were govt owned and they would have led us into distinction long ago.


When was the last time a manager, any manager actaully admitted fault and apologised for the fault/wrong decision that cost so much of company funds and time to execute, and asked for input from those doing the job how to get things back on track? I can't recall. The mentality of this management is to crash or crash through at any cost. Sounds a bit like NSW government's sale of the electricity.

Below is an extract from an interview with Dixon back in December 2005. The link is Flying hazards - CEO Forum Group (http://www.ceoforum.com.au/article-detail.cfm?cid=6292&t=/Geoff-Dixon--Qantas/Flying-hazards/)



ceoforum.com.au: What have you found to be the most important personal qualities in a CEO to effectively drive execution?
GD: Hard work is a given, and the ability to make decisions without delay, once you have the facts. Too often I see a reluctance to decide, not only in our own company but in business generally. You also need to be flexible: if you have made a mistake admit it, make any necessary U-turns, and get back on track quickly.

Of course we won’t collapse - that is ridiculous – but, if we don’t reward our shareholders, they won’t give us the funds we need to grow.
I sometimes get criticised for this, but I have always seen shareholders as our most important stakeholders. I know some CEOs say look after your customers, look after your employees, and the returns for shareholders will follow. I do the exact opposite. We wouldn’t have staff or customers unless we had shareholders who were willing to invest in what is not the most attractive industry at present, and I am constantly stating that message to our staff.


When was the last time a shareholder (apart from employees holding shares) serviced an aeroplane to get it in the air, or fly a plane to get the passengers to their destination, or served the passengers their meals and drinks on board during the flight, or checked in the passenegers and gave them their boarding passes, put the passengers bags on board the aircraft, made the meals for the flight, cleaned the aeroplanes, etc etc? Not once! The day to day shareholders don't actually contribute anything to the running of this or any other company, but will demand an increase in their share price and higher dividends. This can be only achieved when the employees are happy with their work environment and have some shred of rapport with their management. This in turn is reflected with a "whistle while you work" attitude and making the effort to have the customers away on time and satisfied. This will then give people confidence that the company has solid foundations and loyal staff, and are then happy to invest in that company.

What we have today is a totally disenfranchised staff from its management with a "who cares?" attitude but still turn up to work, albeit doing the best they can with the little they have, to make a company run that runs like a spider with brain damage.

As has been stated in earlier posts, there is a mistrust that runs deep and wide between not only the engineers and management, but a majority of QF staff and management, and this will not ease until management stops trying to thump its way through every decision and blocking any sort of dialogue.

A 3% wages policy is just that. A policy. Not a fair wages outcome, or recognition of the work done by its staff. It is the management and shareholders riding the back of every QF employee that delivers the profits for the shareholder's taking.

Enough is enough.

If QANTAS is to survive and resemble a fraction of what it used to be, there needs to be a quick end to this stalemate, and everyone get on with what they've been trained to do. THEIR JOBS!!!

[Rak-a-san]

REDHAWKE37

Good evening my friend, I sense your anger and frustration. I hear what your saying. We are all hurting by this O/T ban in one way or another. As you are fully aware we all took a 5.39% pay cut in Adelaide about 18 months ago because the management said that we were costing them too much and they were hard done by, only to post a $1.7bil profit. These cost savings along with the redundancies all went to line the pockets of JG, MH, DC and the likes. With rising fuel prices, rising cost of living, rising interest rates we are all hurting through this. I have a friend at work that you would know well, he has been forced to seek additional work in the building industry on sh*t money, working nearly 4 or 5 days of his 5 day break. This same person from what he showed me the other day has paid a total of $49500 of child support and mortgage over the last year. The O/T he worked was the additional that paid some of the bills around the house and fixed the things that needed fixing. Like I said we are all hurting.

Jumping up and down, yelling and screaming wont solve anything at this point, its happening for what ever reason and there is jack ****e that can be done about it. Try and look to the future and not the present.

If it goes all wrong then shout, you and I together, will sing the same chorus. Save face and say nothing at the moment, let it ride.

At the end of this, my feathered friend, we will both turn to management and say hey, ...... HAPPY, point at them and say....... SAD

hang in there brother, we are all hurting :sad:

[kotoyebe]

Why dont we ask fedsec what really happened - the company has made several offers as I understand

Yep. They sure did. They offered 3%, take it or leave it, several times.

[PerBro]

STAY COOL BRO......

HOW ABOUT WE THROW IN ANOTHER 20?

MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER FRIEND?

WE ARE IN IT,BATTLE LINES ARE DRAWN...

THE BOARD IS NERVOUS AND THE FLYING KANGAROO"S

CREDABILITY IS AT STAKE.

NOSE TO THE GRIND STONE BROTHER WE CAN DO THIS!!!!!!!:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[chanel1234]

So are you all saying that its not over?????

i have heard that Steven has been promised a Senate seat , catch is that this goes away

This is very recent info, look for the repectful OLD senator with grey shadings to step aside.

Only catch is this dispute needs to go away and soon!!!!!

Please deny it!!!!

[D.P. Gumby]

What planet are you from?

Vicky, unlike so many others I maintain a reasonable and open mind on these things and I also have people who i regard as friends in the management side. I am actually told by people I trust that the company did not back away from their commitment but it was the ALAEA who have done so because they couldnt sell it to the members - its the reason GD has dug in , because the management feel that the Union has not kept its word.

YOU WEREN'T THERE, but you heard it from a mate who heard it from management that there was a definite commitment by the ALAEA to the companies offer.

I can tell you I was at those meetings where the Executive presented the EBA offer (in it's entirety, as backed up by GD's statements to the press about what was in the EBA) and we decided to reject it not the Executive.

It was the Executives job to bring us the EBA offer, which I might add was not well received by them, but in the interest of getting the process moving accepted it and that is where GD thinks they said YES.

WRONG, WE HAD THE FINAL SAY AND WE SAID NO


For your info. An Enterprise Bargaining Agreement is reached by negotiation not by codling together a list of things one man thinks is what would be good for a collective then digging in and bullying them into accepting it.

God forbid the collective having the audacity to question/reject an obviously bad pay offer, which falls well short of the CPI and the cost of living in general.

We are not just fighting for a better pay offer, but for our jobs. If this lot get their way, all that will be left of Qantas will be a Logo on the tail of the Aircraft and signage on the side of a building at Mascot period.

[The cougar]

Mr Fed Sec,
Are you aware that the strike breakers are now working in LA. That is why they are doing the full A chk's now. What is the associations position on the Qantas engineers up there working beside strike breakers assisting airnair in undermining our position.
Redhawk the Association rejected the in principle agreement due to the company reneging on it not the ass. Tell your little matey group that! Don't get to close to your management friends as they are clearly using you as a pawn.

[Dr Itzfukt]

Hey Cougar, same source as the AGM the other week?

[UP D Date]

Ah Smilie, its humurous to see you back here again, felching up some more of MH's cr@p. You must be guinnea pig of the week this week specially since the fat controller has moved on :ok: How do those adl boys take you seriously anymore, or have you been giving them extra pineapples since you got down there:eek:

[wantsta]

Vicky, unlike so many others I maintain a reasonable and open mind on these things and I also have people who i regard as friends in the management side. I am actually told by people I trust that the company did not back away from their commitment but it was the ALAEA who have done so because they couldnt sell it to the members - its the reason GD has dug in , because the management feel that the Union has not kept its word.

Did they pat you on your head Redhawk37 and say "There's a good boy now, run along now"

JUST SHOW ME THE MONEY, NOTHING LESS THAN 5 %

[QF94]

Management will find a way to blame this on the engineers also.

Pilots guiding planes in without traffic controllers - National - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pilots-guiding-planes-in-alone/2008/07/06/1215282650740.html)


Pilots are being forced to guide planes in NSW this evening because of a shortage of air traffic controllers.
The shortage means an area north-west of Canberra, normally covered by controllers in Melbourne, is unmanned.
A spokeswoman for Airservices Australia, the government body in charge of air traffic control management, said the shortage was affecting flights between Sydney and Melbourne, and Canberra and Sydney.
The area would be unmanned between 8pm and 10pm (AEST).
The Airservices Australia spokeswoman said airlines had been advised of the problem earlier today, and it was up to them whether they continued with their flights, diverted them away from the affected area, or delayed them.
Pilots could guide their own planes through the air space without the air traffic controllers, she said.
When asked by AAP if this posed a safety risk, she said the issue was being handled according to regulations.
The spokeswoman said the area in question was usually monitored by air traffic controllers from Melbourne but tonight there were not enough to do the job.
She did not know why there was a staff shortage, and was not aware of any industrial action taking place.
"I don't have the detail," she said.
The spokeswoman expressed regret at the incident.
"We regret that we don't have the full services available," she said.
When asked if this was a rare occurrence, she said there had been some similar "outages" last weekend.
She did not know how many flights had been affected.

[Flugbegleiter]

What's the go during the school holidays? I am told that the PIA is "on hold". I assume that just means there will be no stop work meetings during this period, but overtime bans continue. Is that correct?

If that is the case, it's obviously not going to make a big difference to anything; the overtime bans are having the biggest impact! :ok:

FOG

[The masked goatrider]

What's the go during the school holidays? I am told that the PIA is "on hold". I assume that just means there will be no stop work meetings during this period, but overtime bans continue. Is that correct?

If that is the case, it's obviously not going to make a big difference to anything; the overtime bans are having the biggest impact!


I hope this didn't take you all week to work out. It only took me one day before my anger and disappointment at no more stop work meetings subsided. I think the bigger thing that is killing them is the new rules we work to. Keep up the good work guys. :ok:

[FULLY SICK DICK]

UP D DATE...


Ah Smilie, its humurous to see you back here again, felching up some more of MH's cr@p. You must be guinnea pig of the week this week specially since the fat controller has moved on :ok: How do those adl boys take you seriously anymore, or have you been giving them extra pineapples since you got down there:eek:


I think the pineapples have come back to WA. Heard he's been doing a bit of work in Per of late...:ooh:

[Flugbegleiter]

I hope this didn't take you all week to work out.
I'm not an engineer, just a supportive flight attendant. I don't get ALAEA updates. Most of what I know is from you guys here at Pprune and from a couple of engineering mates, when I get the chance to speak to them. I must have missed some posts about the school holidays. It's a shame we don't get any info from our own union.

I was told at a pre-flight briefing the other day that there is no industrial action going on during the school holidays, so there shouldn't be any delays. Of course, I laughed at that. I assumed that "no industrial action" must mean no stop work meetings only. The overtime bans must surely still stand?? And as you said, Mr Goatrider, the "the bigger thing that is killing them is the new rules (you) work to" :D

I've been keeping my eye on the delays, and there are still plenty! I can't believe the company doesn't have a greater sense of urgency to get this thing sorted out :=

[kotoyebe]

I think the bigger thing that is killing them is the new rules we work to.

Overheard a senior manager saying that it's the overtime bans that's killing them.:ok:

[D.P. Gumby]

It's not just the overtime bans thats hurting them. A Captain told me yesterday one of our flights out of Europe was delayed 4 hours waiting for Qantas to pay a 12 month overdue bill to the Russians which allows us to fly through their airspace. :=:=:=

[I'm Driving]

I bet the bill was due on the 29th of June. Very inconvenient when your trying to prop up the profit to maximise your bonus.

Solution, don't pay the bill till next financial year. HOORAY!

[Gen Y]

From today's Daily Telegraph

QANTAS are training executives to act as strike breakers as baggage handlers prepare to negotiate a pay deal.
Exclusive Daily Telegraph photographs reveal employees, understood to be Qantas company executives, being trained to handle baggage to prepare for looming strikes.
Using an empty hangar at Bankstown airport, teams were taught to load suitcases on to motorised trolleys and drive baggage trucks yesterday.
A long-running pay dispute has caused havoc at Australian airports in recent weeks as engineers fight for higher pay rises.
Further strikes, this time by baggage handlers, are expected because their enterprise bargaining agreement ended on June 30.
The Transport Workers Union is outraged after being given commitments from the airline that they would not train strike breakers.
"These actions show that Qantas management are more interested in partaking in industrial espionage and formulating an industrial relations strategy than looking after their loyal workforce," a TWU spokesman said.
"With Qantas management implementing secretive tactics like these, it is no wonder the Australian public have lost their trust and faith in those managing the flying kangaroo.
"This raises questions about whether Qantas has any intention of coming to the table and bargaining in good faith with the workforce that has given them record profits."
Qantas human resources executive general manager Kevin Brown said it was common practice for staff to be trained to fill in on strikes.
"As a matter of routine practice, we regularly train our staff to act as contingency in the event of industrial stoppages.
"This is a practice we have pursued for more than six years," he said.
A spokesman confirmed that the staff at Hangar 14 are employees of Qantas.

[pablo m]

bolty old son
quote 'As for the 3rd floor. They can go (you fill in the next 3 words)'

it's not the 3rd floor now, it's the 12th, the one you and I can't get
into....

'up the stairs'

[Flugbegleiter]

QANTAS are training executives to act as strike breakers as baggage handlers prepare to negotiate a pay deal.
Geez, this management is such a bunch of wankers. Wouldn't it be easier just to say, "Look, you guys have all worked hard and copped a lot over the last 10 years, so we're going to give you a 5% pay increase per year; you, the engineers and everyone! Hoorah!"??

The baggage handlers have the same problem as cabin crew: it is too easy to train up a temporary strike-breaking work force. But maybe, in conjunction with you guys, they might actually get somewhere.

[Millet Fanger]

It just shows the quality of Qantas engineering management that they have moved away from those that they are 'managing', into a building where they are locked away.

[redhawk37]

You cannot and must not demand the "'details" of the ALEA's position. That is for the Company to guess at and you don't need to know, because the mere act of telling you will play merry hell with your own expectations and cause you much unnecessary grief.

Do what your Fed. Sec. says, no more, no less.

All those reasonable and thinking LAMEs out there - have a look at this and then ask yourslef is this what I really signed up for ! What a bunch of Stalinists!

[division1]

I thought tailwheel told you to run along now.

[redhawk37]

So guys the concept of rational and reasoned argument seems to have escaped you. How small. If you dont like me asking these questions ask them yourself of the ALAEA. Unfortunately nobody does at the meetings because attitudes like yours lead to peope being intimidated and threatened in the workplace. All I am saying is that the timing is wrong, ok, things have changed in the industry in the last 2 months, but we should adapt and shelve things, wait out GD - he will be gone soon.

If you think we have the sympathy of the public - think again, not in the current environment and all the bleating about GD's salary doesnt help a bit, who cares, its always the same always will be - if you want the salary he has apply for the job and offer to do it for your current pay plus 5% - they are looking for a new CEO but somehow I dont think you will be considered!

Wise up, the leadersip is failing -just like they did in high school.:=

[division1]

Wise up, the leadersip is failing -just like they did in high school.:=

i once read Geoff never finished high school, are you confirming that?.

[redhawk37]

I dont know -maybe right! I also dont care, he will be gone soon and he has dug in, we will never shift him and the environment is so drastically different we are just giving him a stick to beat us with. Our main public argument now when people question why we are taking action in these tough times is "well look at GD's salary and those filthy shareholders are going to make all that profit" Has it ever crosssed the ALAEA's mind that oridnary aussies are those filthy shareholders. the same people who we ask to support us? And in fact, the dividends for most of them are small - for most. And they are the people we all need to keep investing otherwise we really will not have jobs. GD has that part right.

If GD didnt finish high school his career has been pretty impresssive then you would have to admit.

[NAS1801]

A suggestion to all.... This message is hidden because redhawk37 is on your ignore list.

[redhawk37]

what a giggle - cant stand other opinions? The more i hear things like that the more I know how mindless the ALAEA count on the membership being. We are being used for political gain n you cant face the truth.

So stupid.

[Sunfish]

Well, well, well, Mr. Redhawk again sowing fear uncertainty and doubt with 13 posts since appearing on 30th June. All but three of them posted between the hours of 11.00am and 3.00pm. It seems we have a bored manager on our hands, or someone who is breathtakingly stupid.

"You cannot and must not demand the "'details" of the ALEA's position. That is for the Company to guess at and you don't need to know, because the mere act of telling you will play merry hell with your own expectations and cause you much unnecessary grief.

Do what your Fed. Sec. says, no more, no less."

And you reply....

All those reasonable and thinking LAMEs out there - have a look at this and then ask yourself is this what I really signed up for ! What a bunch of Stalinists

Redhawk, you've never participated in a negotiation session have you? If you had, you would know you are talking drivel. The content of those discussions would probably make your hair stand on end. I wish I had a union executive like yours standing up for me when I watched my wages constantly fall behind inflation at Ansett.

And you will require discipline of a Stalinistic nature if you want to win this fight with Dixon, you are right about that.

Redhawk:

All I am saying is that the timing is wrong, ok, things have changed in the industry in the last 2 months, but we should adapt and shelve things, wait out GD - he will be gone soon.

Don't you understand that in management terms, the time is NEVER right for a wage rise? Read "Said Hanrahan" below.

Our main public argument now when people question why we are taking action in these tough times is "well look at GD's salary and those filthy shareholders are going to make all that profit" Has it ever crosssed the ALAEA's mind that oridnary aussies are those filthy shareholders. the same people who we ask to support us? And in fact, the dividends for most of them are small - for most. And they are the people we all need to keep investing otherwise we really will not have jobs. GD has that part right.

You have a rather nasty and twisted view of investment in shareholdings don't you? And for the record, nobody in this thread has abused the shareholders

Shareholders are entitled to ALL the profits the company makes, save what the Board decides it needs to keep for re-investment. In return for the possibility of receiving those profits they supply capital to the business that is "at risk" as certain shareholders in a number of structured finance companies have just found out the hard way.

Since all of Qantas shares are owned by someone, the capital has already been supplied. If Qantas requires more capital, it can either borrow it or sell more shares (or do some other creative things off balance sheet like leasing).

To put it simply, QF is not reliant on Mum's and Dad's investment decisions to fund its new aircraft purchases at all. Your assertion is not only untrue, it's nonsense.

Furthermore, as QF's fortune waxes and wanes, like all companies, what changes is the share price investors dont get to ask QF to return their investment money. That's why Dixon's crap about a "sustainable future" is crap.

Unless the airline is grossly mismanaged, it is not going to go under since it has a very very large chunk of the Australian market. What will happen though is that the share price will change in response to perceptions about its return on investment compared to other investments

As for Dixon's management achievements and for a bit of merriment this is where he got his entire strategy from:


SAID HANRAHAN by John O'Brien

"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
In accents most forlorn,
Outside the church, ere Mass began,
One frosty Sunday morn.


The congregation stood about,
Coat-collars to the ears,
And talked of stock, and crops, and drought,
As it had done for years.


"It's looking crook," said Daniel Croke;
"Bedad, it's cruke, me lad,
For never since the banks went broke
Has seasons been so bad."


"It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
With which astute remark
He squatted down upon his heel
And chewed a piece of bark.


And so around the chorus ran
"It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."


"The crops are done; ye'll have your work
To save one bag of grain;
From here way out to Back-o'-Bourke
They're singin' out for rain.


"They're singin' out for rain," he said,
"And all the tanks are dry."
The congregation scratched its head,
And gazed around the sky.


"There won't be grass, in any case,
Enough to feed an ass;
There's not a blade on Casey's place
As I came down to Mass."


"If rain don't come this month," said Dan,
And cleared his throat to speak -
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If rain don't come this week."


A heavy silence seemed to steal
On all at this remark;
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed a piece of bark.


"We want an inch of rain, we do,"
O'Neil observed at last;
But Croke "maintained" we wanted two
To put the danger past.


"If we don't get three inches, man,
Or four to break this drought,
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."


In God's good time down came the rain;
And all the afternoon
On iron roof and window-pane
It drummed a homely tune.


And through the night it pattered still,
And lightsome, gladsome elves
On dripping spout and window-sill
Kept talking to themselves.


It pelted, pelted all day long,
A-singing at its work,
Till every heart took up the song
Way out to Back-o'-Bourke.


And every creek a banker ran,
And dams filled overtop;
"We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"If this rain doesn't stop."


And stop it did, in God's good time;
And spring came in to fold
A mantle o'er the hills sublime
Of green and pink and gold.


And days went by on dancing feet,
With harvest-hopes immense,
And laughing eyes beheld the wheat
Nid-nodding o'er the fence.


And, oh, the smiles on every face,
As happy lad and lass
Through grass knee-deep on Casey's place
Went riding down to Mass.


While round the church in clothes genteel
Discoursed the men of mark,
And each man squatted on his heel,
And chewed his piece of bark.


"There'll be bush-fires for sure, me man,
There will, without a doubt;
We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
"Before the year is out."

Around the Boree Log and Other Verses, 1921

Fuel Prices! Fuel Prices! Yells Hanrahan, sorry, I mean Dixon

[domo]

redhawk talk to your manager mates
get them to make an increased offer this week
once an agreement is made we will lift all bans
How hard is that

[blubak]

Absolutely 100% right-spot on the money.
Make an offer that is in line with being reasonable,make an offer that gives everybody all the contents of the offer(not less than 10% of the membership as in the 1% super increse) and if 5% was ever offered by management friends of a certain contributor to this post-LETS SEE IT IN BLACK & WHITE.
HOW HARD IS THAT?????

[LAME2]

it's not the 3rd floor now, it's the 12th, the one you and I can't get
into....

'up the stairs'

What are we saying here guys? MH and others have locked themselves into QC* for brainstorming session? Perhaps to do a "lap of learning"?

Do they appear stressed or agitated?

What's the significance of the stairway, does it go to heaven? (apologies to the song writers guild).

Please explain for us out of Sydneyites.

[sky rocket]

The higher thy are, the harder they will fall.

[max1]

Redhawk,
Based on your logic, therefore all Qantas shareholders are entitled to a detailed plan of how Qantas are going to deal with this dispute, including all strategies and management discussions that have gone on.

On the other hand, they might think that they have the Qantas management there to do it for them, and it would be disingenuous to air their plans to the public and telegraph their strategies to the other side.

Then again , maybe Qantas management haven't got a clue.

[Millet Fanger]

All the QE managers in SYD moved about 3 months ago into a Jet Base building 'MA' Level 12. Level 12 can not be accessed by the building lift, one has to go to the 11 floor then get out and walk up the steps, past the security, to the 12 floor.

This is where our esteemed management hide. Where they can't see the 'balls up' they have created. Where they don't have to look anyone face to face. The 'scabs' (according to MH's email) are dispatched from L12 with their riding instructions to go down and mingle with the engineering staff.

In some ways this is best, it keeps them away from aircraft (which they know nothing about) and helps the disengage with their staff stay strong (we don't want to accidentally stumble across a resolution to the EBA - the board hasn't 'signed off' on it yet.)

[domo]

fedsec any meeting with the company this week?

[blackhander]

Domo, fedsec in BNE H3 today, said there was a meeting on tomorrow.

[The cougar]

Everyone ignore redhawk and he will go away, as for the Dr itz not original I stated my error as to the AGM, and get in touch with one of our strike breakers in LA and learn the truth!

[sky rocket]

Cougar, I remember you admitting your error. Only wish management could do the same!

[stiffnut]

Level 12 is also known as the bunker [ by dmm's, foreman and people a bit higher than us], somebody mentioned last week it could be like hitler in his last days in the bunker, only hope so, can somebody pass in the poison and the gun and put us all out of our misery.

[UP D Date]

The backlog of work is apparently climbing at 2000 manhours a week, to be slightly over 12000 manhours according to a source in planning, I think the sue for peace could happen sooner than later, but there is always the inept stupidity of management, so you never know:ugh:

[Dockie]

I found this little gem on the Lean site at work.

"You should submit wisdom to the company.
If you don't have any wisdom to contribute, submit sweat.
If nothing else, work hard and don't sleep. Or resign."
Taiichi Ohno

After reading this, my first thought was "God help us".:rolleyes:

[wantsta]

Geez, this management is such a bunch of wankers. Wouldn't it be easier just to say, "Look, you guys have all worked hard and copped a lot over the last 10 years, so we're going to give you a 5% pay increase per year; you, the engineers and everyone! Hoorah!"??

The baggage handlers have the same problem as cabin crew: it is too easy to train up a temporary strike-breaking work force. But maybe, in conjunction with you guys, they might actually get somewhere.


Lol, might just have to wait for the "management loaders" to get all the bags loaded in the fwd loacker, before pointing out that the belt loader drive motor sounds a bit suspect and needs a close up inspection. What a shame all those bags will have to come off again. :ok:

[wantsta]

I dont know -maybe right! I also dont care, he will be gone soon and he has dug in, we will never shift him and the environment is so drastically different we are just giving him a stick to beat us with. Our main public argument now when people question why we are taking action in these tough times is "well look at GD's salary and those filthy shareholders are going to make all that profit" Has it ever crosssed the ALAEA's mind that oridnary aussies are those filthy shareholders. the same people who we ask to support us? And in fact, the dividends for most of them are small - for most. And they are the people we all need to keep investing otherwise we really will not have jobs. GD has that part right.

If GD didnt finish high school his career has been pretty impresssive then you would have to admit.


Instead of whining and complaining or licking GD's ass, grow a spine will you !!!

Divide and conquer doesn't work anymore pal.
This here is a new order and an exec with balls and smarts to back it up, keep guessing GD, goose.

[Nasty Piece of Work]

My rep has just told me that "MANAGEMENT OUT OF THE BLUE, CANCELED THE EBA MEETING SET DOWN FOR TOMORROW" anyone know anymore ? Are they just pig headed and stupid or can't they stand dealing with people with integrity who won't sell out ?

I'm so angry I just ripped the head off my 'I luv Geoff' doll and flushed it down the toilet but it's ok I'll blame the engineers and call it sabotage

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Meeting tomorrow is canx guys because a couple of us union guys can't make it due to other commitments. Not sure why but I think they want us all there.

[Jethro Gibbs]

other commitments ?
i would have thought this would be your first at this time more delays !

[Sunfish]

Re the "Floor Twelve" business, when the tide goes out, watch people evacuate their high altitude offices, and try and be just " some guys amongst the rest of the people". With no particular responsibility for what has gone on.


Seen it before.....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

other commitments ?
i would have thought this would be your first at this time more delays !

We do have other members also. I am glad I didn't go to every one of the 41 official and 12 or so unofficial EBA meetings. If I did our office would not be functioning right now. Tomorrow we have a staff member on his last day and I need to help him do a hand over and then there is a more detailed notice on fuel tank entry, visit to mel for tech staff EBA, paperwork to lodge for PIA ballots at Forstaff, media prep for next week, ACTU debrief on new award consolidation and if you don't mind, I may try and get some lunch in.

[NAS1801]

For those that have not done your harrassment training online, here's a little gem I saw today. It's from the pdf file that pops up about half way through. (Human resources policy manual Ch 3:4-2) What is a Grievance? A grievance is any employment related matter that the employee feels is:

• Unjust, or unfair, or
• Causes resentment, suffering or distress. Sound's like managemnets treatment of staff.... Grievances can stem from a variety of reasons, which if left unresolved, may Lead to:

• Poor productivity
• Absenteeism,
• Low morale,
• Staff turnover, and
• Industrial disputes. I rest my case.

[The cougar]

Fed Sec, if its any consolation your doing a top job!

[chanel1234]

Mr Fed Sec has better things to do than meet with QF to try to sort this out.

What a hypocrite, MR FED SEC you are paid to sort this out, as for the crap excuse, i cannot belive what i am reading.

Member anxiety is at an all time high , but not to worry gotta to do some sort of hand over and prepare for media interviews next week.

GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. MEMBERS are hurting, attend every meeting

If the Rail strike goes ahead in NSW you are finished, You are loosing the PR War, i figure you will put a notice in next week, fabulous and a total PR disaster.

Not to worry, we will potpone the meeting with QF, power has gone to your head.

[stoned philosopher]

Don't blame the execs, they are working their @rses off for the membership. It's QE using any excuse to buy more time. When this is over I hope we can show the execs our appreciation, especially when they have to attend to matters on their time off. Perhaps a 5% bonus for the full time staff and a 50% reduction in union fees for the next 5 years for the voluntary members! Wot youse reckon?

stoned P

[blubak]

Have they made another time for the meeting or nothing planned yet?

[F.O.G.]

is that a red hawk? no? maybe a GOOey WRASSE?

[SpannerTwister]

Hey F.O.G...

Are you trying to tell RH to nick off :D ?



SpannerTwister

[triple bogie]

To you SP and and all the Exec's - Thank you for the brilliant work, you are all top blokes.:ok:
I think this is the sentiment of the whole membership!
:D



'UNITED WE STAND'

[Ngineer]

Meeting tomorrow is canx guys because a couple of us union guys can't make it due to other commitments.

Probably another meeting or slideshow presentation of the same crap being offered by QF, maybe with a sign on bonus, all of which does nothing to address the problem that we have only had an increase of 1.7%pa average for the last 10 years with no increase for 30months.

I personally do not not how the ALAEA can sit through it. If I had to sit and listen to a bunch of blow-ins who are destroying our business try to sell this crap to me, knowing full well that each one of them have been making such a repulsive and greedy grab for cash I would be physically sick. All credit to the ALAEA negotiating team.

[K9P]

I'm still waiting for the rest of my $130,000.00 that Geoff said I'm earning for the financial year just ended.

[Gen Y]

Rudd hands bureaucrats 18pc pay rise

July 08, 2008 10:36am

Article from: AAP



"PRIME Minister Kevin Rudd has given the nation's most senior public servants a $1400-a-week pay rise, despite calling on other sectors of the workforce to show wage restraint.

Mr Rudd has signed off on a 18.9 per cent pay rise for the secretaries of all 19 government departments, taking the packages for the highest paid public servants from $410,890 to $488,557."



Rudd better not pull the "wage restraint" card when it comes to QF engineers.

[redhawk37]

Wow Sunfish, checking all my posts, dates and times and then the longest post in recorded history - who's just a little bit bored again? Or is that threatened by opinions that dont coincide with your own, seems its really eating at you - I wonder what that is hmmm. What a giggle.
Thanks for the share price and equity lecture from Wiki, I never knew all that.:p

Oh by the way, I see the assn is too busy to meet with the company and has cancelled again - Bravo FedSec , so what else are you doing for the members that is more important than this at the moment. Preparing for your move to Canberra?? I notice you had to be asked before you fessed up- keep up the good work. Whats the next step up from a genius?

[K9P]

Australia used to be known as a classless society,but it appears there are at least two classes, one to which the rules have to apply and the other that think that they are above that and can do as they wish.

[UP D Date]

Ah Redhawk, yet another manager too afraid to come down to the floor and actually consult with the troops, rather resorting to slagging off on a rumour network:rolleyes:
I have had over twenty notices from the union, and several face-to-face meetings at our stop works........Haven't seen one QF manager since this whole shennanigans started:=
Whats the matter, too afraid to come down to the floor:confused: Oh thats right, you've never had any real management training, just 'amazing people', and a buggery101 with big D!ck !!!:eek:

[Toolpants]

Jethro Gibbs (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/146040-jethro-gibbs)


other commitments ?
i would have thought this would be your first at this time more delays !
(http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/146040-jethro-gibbs)

Jethro, this is not going to be sorted out quickly. Just relax and enjoy the show. The O.T. bans a killing them and “slow, calm and steady” will win the race.

The company can resolve this anytime they want. They will let us know when they have had enough.

Keep it up Fed Sec, your doing well.

[redhawk37]

Actually I spend much more time at the coal face every day than you imagine. All I have consistently said is that the assn should rethink things a bit - but people are behaving like a runaway train, like there is only one track- spoiling for a fight. That type of thinking is just not on anymore and serves only the purposes of the politicians in the ACTU and ALAEA. not us. I just cant see us being better off in a confrontation like that.

I have consistantly said, lets bridge the gap a bit now, wait out GD and deal with the next management. Thats why I also said that I hope its one of the internal candidates, except the Irishman, and not an outsider or one of the Chairmans mates - because look at what he did in the mining industry.

I have also consistantly said the the assn leadership is not being honest and open with the membership - they seem to think that this is acceptable and even necessary because we will tip off the "enemy" to our tactics - I mean come on, what kind of childish and simplistic view of the world is that, really, its the 21st century. There is no tactic short of an all out and illegal strike that would take anything more than a few days for the company to find a work around for. So we just get locked into a cycle and finally we get an extra percentage or two - so what? In the meantime we bugger the company which the same folk say they care so much about.


Its all gone on too long - there has to be a better way.

[Toolpants]

redhawk37; In the meantime we bugger the company which the same folk say they care so much about.
As I said previously.
Only Management know the exact damage this is causing the company and can resolve this anytime they want.

“They” will let us know when “they” want this resolved and they will do this by making a fair offer.

[Millet Fanger]

It must be office hours - there is a lot of activity from the company stooge!!

[idydir]

five percent

[UP D Date]

Redhawk, the coalface is actually on the floor where the lames work, its not in 271/3 or lvl12 in the Ivory towers, or if indeed u r in adl, lvl 1 of the MUIT with a blonde on ur lap!!
I personally at this stage have no problems with the way the assocn has been running the campagain, and having been an employee of this company for a long period of time, could not stop laughing when you insinuate we should look to QF management for honesty:rolleyes:

[Peace pipe]

Agree totally with your comments Toolpants! Slow and steady will win the race for a fair outcome for all.

As for Redgoose 1......company stooge or not, i do put merit and value on other peoples opinions.......some opinions are just worth more than others.

To S.P. and the Exec, Keep up the good work:ok: Every day that passes the AGM approaches and with that....the financial disclosure of all management bonuses for the year......which i'm sure equate to 3% in line with the boards policy:rolleyes:

[Jets on]

After reading the latest E-Torque I’m amazed that we haven’t all closed up the shop and gone home. CASA appears to have adopted the QANTAS policy of ‘hear no evil, see no evil’, with the guys with the suits telling employees how to maintain a/c and those pesky people with the tools, I mean the real tools and not those strategy thingy’s in the office being totally ignored. I suppose that’s why I’d never be a modern manager as I’m still under the impression that those who are actually involved in a specialized job might just have some valuable input.
I hope that the new federal Minister responsible for aviation can get CASA back on track as they seem to be a servant of the money first people and safety a secondary consideration, Another legacy of the Howard Government.
And another thank you to the ALAEA team, with representing 80% of the LAME’S Australia wide and all their varied problems, it must seem daunting most times to just turn up at the office.:D

[Gen Y]

Minimum wage went up 4.15% today.

If this dispute continues, the minimum wage will by-pass that of LVL3 LAMES... The board might have to break the 3% policy then...:ok:

Latest rumour from the coal face:

SIT LAMES being dragged into the office one by one and "asked" to work back then threatened with four hours pay docked if they refuse. Expect an ALAEA notice with the facts soon.:\

[Sunfish]

Redhawk:

Wow Sunfish, checking all my posts, dates and times and then the longest post in recorded history - who's just a little bit bored again? Or is that threatened by opinions that dont coincide with your own, seems its really eating at you - I wonder what that is hmmm. What a giggle.
Thanks for the share price and equity lecture from Wiki, I never knew all that.

Oh by the way, I see the assn is too busy to meet with the company and has cancelled again - Bravo FedSec , so what else are you doing for the members that is more important than this at the moment. Preparing for your move to Canberra?? I notice you had to be asked before you fessed up- keep up the good work. Whats the next step up from a genius?


......and again you post after 11.00 am and before 3.00 pm with your daily dose of FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt), and this time aimed at the Fed. Sec.

As for your opinion, you are welcome to it, but of course you are not giving an opinion on the basis of known facts, you are giving your opinion on your own assertions.

...Like repeating the assertion of other trolls that the Fed. Sec. has a political career in mind, with the obvious but unstated implication that he is therefore untrustworthy.

By the way, I've reported your post to the long suffering moderators. Love to know your ISP and URL.

[The masked goatrider]

I have just spoke to the asn office and there appears to be some wierd sort of development. Qantas will be sponsoring the next lot of work stoppages and they will be ongoing. In case you missed it -


Qantas will be sponsoring the next lot of work stoppages and they will be ongoing

Union apparently has been waiting for this act of stupidity from M and his henchmen. Members in Sydney and Melbourne have been given written letters ordering them to work overtime and the union has responding by ordering exactly double the amount of time off in stoppages. Cost nuetral for the LAME but now they lose even more time.

Thank you M we luv ya. I always knew you hid a big heart under that big fluffy hairdo.

[NAS1801]

It looks like the LAME's up in Brisbane have accepted the flexible rosters, 20th day/DIL banking clause. This will now be part of the EBA. Nice one.

[SpannerTwister]

Scenario.................

Manager says "Work overtime or get docked pay"

LAME says "I don't mind working overtime, but I feel I am too fatigued to do so safely right now"

Manager says "If you don't do it, I will dock your pay"

LAME says "I cannot afford to get my pay docked, so even though I am feeling too fatigued to work overtime, under this threat I will do so."

LAME makes mistake.....Plane crashes...........

Discuss.


SpannerTwister

[Ngineer]

SIT LAMES being dragged into the office one by one and "asked" to work back then threatened with four hours pay docked if they refuse. Expect an ALAEA notice with the facts soon.:\
Today 14:03

Looks like redhawk is too busy to post at the moment...

[blubak]

Fedsec,
Make sure the media get all the facts on the forced overtime,this just shows what a pack of low lifes the management of this company is.
There are lots of words that could be used to further describe them but to each and every 1 of them-make no mistake,you and the actions you have taken will never be forgotten and will haunt you at a time and place when you least expect it.

[Ultralights]

ok, so how can you be docked pay for refusing to work overtime? isnt overtime worked when you have already worked your obligatory 38 hr week?

[Ngineer]

ok, so how can you be docked pay for refusing to work overtime? isnt overtime worked when you have already worked your obligatory 38 hr week?

You would'nt think so, would you mate. But its all legal thanks to John Howard's Liberal party and Workchoices.

[bandit2]

Anyone with access to facebook? New section my wife found, "Who hates Qantas & Dickson, but supports QF Engineers". Just search Qantas engineers. I`m serious.

[The Black Panther]

Last wage increase for LAMEs was 1Jan2006.
At the same time the CPI was 155.5
The Fair Pay Commission minimum wage $12.75

After today’s decision by the Fair Pay commission. The Fair Minimum Wage has increased by +12.2% since 2006 or +5.92% pa to $14.31

The CPI at 31Mar08 was 162.2 or + 4.3% since 2006.


Qantas made $671 million profit before tax 2006.
Qantas made $1032 million profit before tax 2007.
Qantas expects to make $1400 million profit before tax 2008.

Why are we being screwed by this management?

[pretzels]

last night ALAEA Fed Sec said:

Meeting tomorrow is canx guys because a couple of us union guys can't make it due to other commitments. Not sure why but I think they want us all there.


and then said:


We do have other members also. I am glad I didn't go to every one of the 41 official and 12 or so unofficial EBA meetings. If I did our office would not be functioning right now. Tomorrow we have a staff member on his last day and I need to help him do a hand over and then there is a more detailed notice on fuel tank entry, visit to mel for tech staff EBA, paperwork to lodge for PIA ballots at Forstaff, media prep for next week, ACTU debrief on new award consolidation and if you don't mind, I may try and get some lunch in.


Yet the notice I just received says the meeting on Tuesday was cancelled by Qantas.

What's the truth? :confused:

Can I believe what you say on here? The official notice to all members is inconsistent with it and looks to be designed to cast the company in a bad light with the majority who dont use pprune.

I just want to know the facts.

[Jets on]

No need to reflect the company in a bad light. They have already gone to the DARK side.

[UP D Date]

Great move Fedsec:D now if we can only get them to force us to work overtime in other areas:{

[Annulus Filler]

Fed Sec

Should all ALAEA members turn up to the Roadshow next week?

AF

[F.O.G.]

Pretzels,

quite simply from what I read;

A couple of union guys couldn't make it, company informed of who WOULD be attending. Company decide, for their own reasons, that unless the WHOLE negotiating committee attends they aren't interested and thus cancel the meeting.

Needless to say, the WHOLE negotiating committee rarely attend every meeting so who know what the company are up to, probably just needed an excuse to cancel as they had nothing of use to anyone to say for themselves.......

It's hard to negotiate when you've lost the plot........and the union keep negating your actions......... :ok:


Took me a few times of reading to get my head around the company sponsored stop-works until I realised for every hour of OT forced upon us we stop for double the number of normal hours later..........genius Murray....pure genius.....and there we were thinking we'd lose money in our stop works........:D

geez, he's SOOOOO kind...... :E

[Mr Invisible]

nice first post pretzel
I leaning towards redhawk has a new alias but in case you are fair dinkum the FedSec never said who cancelled the meeting in the post on prune and now he has in a notice.

Executive supporting the Membership, Membership supporting the Executive, my old man would be proud he always said if they ever got off their asses and out from underneath management's desk LAMEs would be a force to be reckoned with.
As for me I'm just happy to be apart of it
Strength to your arms Brothers

[WheelsandBrakes]

Engineers on "go-slow" says Peter Gregg

Hi all,

Mr Fed Sec, I've just read the latest notice - nice move! B4 I start my rant just like to say a huge thank you to you and the rest of the exec plus the others helping you behind the scenes. The thank you is not only for the stuff with the QF EBA but all the other issues affecting LAME's in Oz.

On night shift read a notice on Friday Flyer PLUS email to all staff from Peter Gregg. He states that during the school hols employees attempting to fly staff travel should be aware of the "go-slows" by engineers which may cancel travel plans.

How can this be legal? Why are those people high up in the food chain allowed to sprout this type of INCORRECT and defammatory info? Possible this could set an individual LAME up for abuse.

As you can imagine this did not inspire me to "excel" in any of my tasks for the remainder of the shift. Everytime I thought of his words I grew angrier - and even more so when I realised that it was doubtful ANY of our AMAZING managers were at work on a Sunday night freezing their arses off having to work outside in the elements! My good-will totally disappeared (I know it's hard to believe that I still had some left!).

So when my next aircraft arrived requiring a check 2 during the 40 min transit I did acknowledge that I was going "slower" than before PIA but ONLY BECAUSE I FOLLOWED THE QF PROCEDURES!

Needed to get a stand to check the engine oils - not one on this bay, (because god forbid we should be provided with adequate appropriate stands FOR EACH BAY), no I'll find an appropriate one at the other end of the tarmac to where my aircraft is! Of course it isn't a towable one - the towable one is u/s! Walk this stand back to the aircraft - I SUPPOSE I SHOULD HAVE BEEN RUNNING!

Next need a printout from AMM. Useless to try the computer in the hut closest to my aircraft – it isn’t connected to a printer, (you go Telstra!). Back to the office and unable to get on the 2 computers available for use in the so called library as in use by other LAME’s. Go to use the one in the smoko room – need to log in – 10 mins! Gotta love this QF technology at our fingertips! Just about to hit print and system kicks me out – try again. Eventually get out of there – 30 mins gone and I haven’t even been upstairs to the flt deck yet!

And so the saga, (the circus) continued well past the scheduled departure time. Topping it off was no towbar available for the pushback - the ONLY one we had on the domestic ramp being used to tow another a/c off bay as an incoming one waiting to dock. We couldn't possibly purchase more towbars because the managers are trying their best to set us all up to fail in the long term so they will feel justified in sending QF Engineering offshore!

I am now definitely over trying to put MYSELF out to make a system work that has been seriously MIS-MANAGED! For the whole system to be in utter chaos because 1500 employees stop doing o/t and actually start putting in to practice the procedures being rammed down their throats is MIS-MANAGEMENT! To think those managers actually got bonuses to do this!

QF no longer deserves to survive. As for Peter Gregg .....

[Dockie]

One thing I can say as a Qantas LAME is that these days, there is never a dull moment and you just have to hang on tight and go along for the ride.

Absolutely fantastic and I,m stoked that SP and the exec are steering the ship.:D

Hello MA

[division1]

Well, so much for the lame inspired truce and goodwill
shown by ceasing stopages during the holidays and
WYD week. The company buggery campaign seems to
be near breaking point. Some of the inuendo from the
management is outrageous.
Some a$$clowns think it is a good idea for the terminal
crew to nip over to the heavy maint shed and put in a
few hours after going non stop all morning. Never mind
it's right in the middle of the shift handover time in the
shed.
And the stark reality of the tail payments fiasco, these
people are losing whatever tender hooks they had to
the coalface by the day. We generally acknowlede the
managers are acting in some sort of 'puppet' mode, but
they still seem happy to fire the bullets.

Way to go Qantas management.
The Kharma wheel is turning. :E

[Take five]

I hear that QE will be back to servicing British Airways in Sydney within the next 2 weeks. It seems that British have told the management that if we don't, that they will do the same to QF in London and also will not give QF access to the first class lounge there either.

[Big M]

The Customers Are Revolting


So what Take Five ! LAME's are merely working by the example shown from our executive management - "The customer is not important - The Shareholder is GOD - look after them and the customer will be happy" :E

I hear that QE will be back to servicing British Airways in Sydney within the next 2 weeks. It seems that British have told the management that if we don't, that they will do the same to QF in London and also will not give QF access to the first class lounge there either.

What a shame if no one was to have their BA 744 and/or 772 approval current, merely a case of not having enough time to complete all the arduous read and signs for the latest BA procedures. After all, it's our management that have indicated to us that we shouldn't be concerned with those trivial customer contracts. LAME's once again will be following the lead of our mighty management and not concern ourselves with BA - we shall concentrate our efforts on our own house.;)

Of course , it's no problem for M and those magnificent others in the 'Bunker', they've got their 'SUPER' Newport Aviation LAME's at $200K per annum - I'm sure they have BA approvals and no doubt at their pay rate they can be in Los Angeles AND Sydney at the same time !
It's for these reasons that we have our esteemed managers steering the ship - they know engineering better than anyone !

I'm so proud to work under such a fantastic leadership! :ok:

:D:D:D

[numbskull]

From todays Australian,


John Durie | July 08, 2008


ONE of Geoff Dixon's many remarkable achievements at Qantas has been to boost the airline's market share to more than 60 per cent.

But amid its latest industrial dispute there are fears he could be handing rival Virgin Blue corporate customers on a plate.

While some analysts are cutting their profit estimates for Virgin, its boss Brett Godfrey has a real opportunity during the strike to grab market share from Qantas.

Dixon has long regarded Virgin as being trapped in no-man’s-land in its so-called new world airline strategy of being part full-service and part budget carrier, which makes it even more ironical that he would hand his rival market share in a single minded push to show his power over the unions.

Question then whether Dixon is pushing the issue too hard: it’s the classic dilemma between what some would call potential short term losses against potential long term gains.

The engineers strike is for just a 5 per cent pay rise and is restricted so far to an overtime ban.

Many would argue the pay claim is not excessive but more importantly, the workers are not doing it too tough because they are still getting their regular pay and are just missing out on overtime.

It’s a tough time to run an airline right now, when you have to pay $US15 a barrel to put a hedge on crude oil at $US145 a barrel and industrial disputes don’t help.

While Qantas has cut capacity by some 10 per cent, if the strike continues and more services are cut, just maybe Virgin may be spared further cuts.

A business customer faced with a cancelled flight at 10am with the choice or flying at either 6pm or 6am may well prefer to fly Virgin, and the more this happens the bigger the danger is for Qantas.

Qantas’s own capacity cuts have forced it to fast forward cost-cutting targets from $1.5 billion over the next two years to the same amount in 12 months, meaning the airline has frozen staff hires and salaries and is doing a new round of cuts to discretionary spending.

The increased costs will, of course, also hit budget airline Jetstar.

Its steady profit increase has already been threatened by increased costs in its international expansion.

All this amid uncertainty as to just who will replace Dixon as boss means new chair Leigh Clifford has a bit on his plate.



mmmmmmmmmmm sounds like you're winning

[Peace pipe]

ONE of Geoff Dixon's many remarkable achievements at Qantas has been to boost the airline's market share to more than 60 per cent.....I'm guessing the collapse of Ansett had nothing to do with this eventuality:hmm:

Lets not put facts in the way of the Ole Great Ones legacy now should we:eek:

Many would argue the pay claim is not excessive ..........well not compared to the managements self awarded and rewarded bonus system!

Mmm...just wondering will QF name an A380 after Dixon or perhaps a B733 freighter..... i know which one best resembles the shape he is leaving this once great airline in!

[Slackjaw]

Heard from the grapevine SIT Engineer was directed to extend his shift.

He said no

He was then asked if he had a legitimate reason why he wasn't extending today

He said "Absolutely"

.......and that's all

He said no I am not extending to participate in any form of unprotected industrial action, I have a legitimate reason why I'm not extending today and you are not entitled to know what the reason is.

They did ask about wether he would extend in the future and said all these things about the policy manual. He said he didn't know about those things and could not possibly make a decision about the legality of them at the moment.

Then he said he can't stay back today, he is not participating in any form of unprotected industrial action, he had a legitimate reason why he wasn't extending and they are not entitled to know what it is.

They let him go after that.



"To F*&# a$$ holes, it takes a Dick, a Dick with balls" :ok:
(Team America, 2004)

[FULLY SICK DICK]

"To F*&# a$$ holes, it takes a Dick, a Dick with balls" :ok:
(Team America, 2004)


Couldn't agree more.....:D

[The cougar]

Said by Redhawk

That type of thinking is just not on anymore and serves only the purposes of the politicians in the ACTU and ALAEA. not us. I just cant see us being better off in a confrontation like that.

So Redhawk states that he is management, please do not respond to anymore of his rot and he will go away!

[Konehead]

If the syd Int ops now have excess labour how about offering redundancies??!! Crikey there'd be nobody left.:E

Pity all that excess labour is being soaked up at Base. :}
And we're still persisting with the crisis crew!
And the workload just keeps backing up.
I've been hearing rumours from planning that there WILL be a/c parked against the fence this week, due to lack of maintenance. I've heard this for the last 3 weeks now, but the way I heard it, this latest rumour sounded quite adamant. Anyone know more?

On another note, I heard a rumour the union has offered QF a sweet deal with the words "pay freeze" in it. No joke. But I'm guessing "the devil is in the detail". :hmm:

[vortsa]

What's the latest with on time departures and how many cancellations yesterday, Internationals and Domestics?

[Mstr Caution]

QF128 & QF128D both arrived in SYD this morning at the same time, so I assume 128D was about 24 hours late.

[vortsa]

I heard that QF 31 didn't happen last night any truth ?

Another rumour next meeting planned for the 21st ???

[The masked goatrider]

The day so far -

AirlineScheduled Tracked Departed Cancelled 15-30 30-45 45+ Ontime
Qantas Airways 496......269......244.....25.....38.....23.....30.....63%

[division1]

I applaud the latest notice informing of the illegal
nature of the managements buggery campaign.
Some of them really need a leash and muzzle.

[Bolty McBolt]

I heard that QF 31 didn't happen last night any truth

We can't always take the blame. Qf-31 Canx was done by yeild management weeks ago.

[vortsa]

We can't always take the blame. Qf-31 Canx was done by yeild management weeks ago.

OR CAN WE???

Perhaps the numbers are down because pax are going with a more on time service/carrier.

[Mstr Caution]

Perhaps the numbers are down because pax are going with a more on time service/carrier


I actually heard that QF is proactively attempting to manage the disruptions by NOT offering for sale, seats on various flights therefore enabling a less dirsuptive future flight cancellation.

MC

[lordofthewings]

This EBA is almost two years old, step up the PIA.Youre just going to roll into another frustrating two years dealing with the same crap.:ugh:

[lordofthewings]

Oh, i forgot, most of you are weak as pi.s. Met a bloke working terminal on $140,000 a year that said why would he leave for the little amount of work that he does. Looks to me that its the post 96 employees and the hangars that are under paid, funny that these are the people that also do most of the work and are deserving of a pay rise.
Not you old long time gerrys building empires not because you dont want to work, you just dont know how.

[Flugbegleiter]

Oh, i forgot, most of you are weak as pi.s. Met a bloke working terminal on $140,000 a year that said why would he leave for the little amount of work that he does. Looks to me that its the post 96 employees and the hangars that are under paid, funny that these are the people that also do most of the work and are deserving of a pay rise.
Not you old long time gerrys building empires not because you dont want to work, you just dont know how.
Dear Lord,

Please be careful. This is the kind of attitude that will lead to to "divide and conquer". This is not the time for that. To everyone else, ignore comments like that and stick together.

Amen.

[SpannerTwister]

Don't worry Flugbegleiter, I think LOTW is just Trolling a bit.

I've never seen the LAME's as united as they are on this :D !

Even if QE offers the association a "divisive" package, I doubt very much if the association would even bother putting it to the members, and if they WERE foolish enough to do so, I'm pretty darn sure that the members would reject it totally :} !!

Talking to the guys at work, it seems that everyone has a story to tell of their mates in a different section / base that are all united as one !

Seems to me that the company has foolishly managed to unite us, and managed to show us how that we can, with just a tiny bit of muscle-flexing, cause them so much pain :eek: !!

I'll bet that was never one of their intended consequences :ugh: !!


SpannerTwister

[Konehead]

I'm sure the LAME was trolling a bit too. We llike baiting people. LOTW, you're a sucker. You obviously took the bait.
Now I'm not taking your bait, just trying to educate you a little.
For starters, very few LAMEs are on $140K.
You imply the LAME is a pre-1996 LAME. So if he was an older LAME, good luck to him. He either holds licenses on just about every aircraft in the fleet and some that aren't or holds fewer licenses but has decades of experience in the industry. Every other industry I know of, such highly qualified or experienced employees are highly valued.
There's an old saying: "A good engineer does more with less". So it stands to reason that an older LAME probably doesnt work as hard as a younger LAME. Why? 1. he's already been working hard on shiftwork for decades and may be physically incapable of running around like a young bloke. 2. He doesnt need to because he's more experienced than a younger LAME.
I'm a post-1996 LAME and I value my older colleagues. Every one is an incredibly valuable resource - fonts of wisdom and experience. I definitely don't spite them their pay, just as I don't spite a check captain his $250,000 or so.

Oh, i forgot, most of you are weak as pi.s.

Yeah we must be to reject 3%, vote down the best the company would offer after 18 moths of negotiation, hang out for 2.5 years for a fair payrise, refuse overtime, refuse to rise to the provocations of a buggery campaign, keep the aircraft flying albeit delayed somewhat, work our rings out in all weather at all hours and still bring the company to it's knees. Real weak.

[hi-speed tape]

I'm pre 96. got most QF types plus bolt ons, I do a moderate amount of overtime and I just got my group cert................
Guess what ????............. I didn't get $ 140k. No where near !!!
Please sir, can I have more gruel ?

[Konehead]

I'm pre 96. got most QF types plus bolt ons, I do a moderate amount of overtime and I just got my group cert................
Guess what ????............. I didn't get $ 140k. No where near !!!
Please sir, can I have more gruel ?

I rest my case.
You get gruel? I get sh*t sandwiches on stale rye and pineapple up my ar$e for dessert.

[off-sked]

When comparing your annual wage to $140k, spare a thought for the guys at the bottom of the heap. A level 3 LAME would have to work a significant amount of overtime to earn $85k.
Given the money being earnt by other trades these days, $85k isn't a lot of money, especially when you have to work extended shifts through half the public holidays and half your weekends to get it.
:cool:

[capt.cynical]

A bit off topic,I apologize.:)

From Crikey.com :ok:

Qantas's illusory holidays. A Crikey tipster yesterday pointed out that the ever-consumer friendly Qantas (through its low-cost subsidiary Jetstar) had “recently cancelled the confirmed bookings of 5000 passengers traveling to Malaysia. Most of these 5000 booked during a May fare promotion when the price of oil was around $120.” Leaving aside the morality of the cancellations (most of the customers who were holiday makers would no doubt have purchased linking flights and booked hotels which cannot be cancelled without penalty), there is a basic contractual issue of whether such a move is legal. While Jetstar/Qantas would no doubt include a swathe of terms and conditions which allow it to cancel whatever flights it likes, there is a basic contractual principle that a contract cannot be illusory. That is, a party cannot enforce a contract upon which performance is optional. If Jetstar/Qantas is able to cancel flights simply because it feels like it (say, because the oil price goes up or Geoff Dixon catches a cold), then it would appear to be a somewhat illusory contract. While this doesn’t help the 5000 stranded holiday-makers, it may help a Jetstar/Qantas passenger who is trying to cancel a booking in the future.
While on the topic, Crikey has been informed that Jetstar is telling the 5000 jilted customers that they will receive their money back for the cancelled flights in 5-6 weeks. That means many customers may be unable to afford replacement flights and Jetstar/Qantas can profit from holding onto the cash for almost two months. -- Adam Schwab :eek:

[fixitdude]

It seems that Qantas are well practiced at cancelling things to Malaysia. TJK's planned SC2 at MAE was cancelled yesterday less than 24hrs before the support team were due to fly out. Seems things are not going too well at MAE.......TJU maybe? CASA Senate inquiry? Hmmmm...... I guess we will hear more in the future.:)

[NAS1801]

Newsflash from Brisbane. Heavy Maintenance LAME stood down for refusing to enter fuel tanks. Mor enews to come.

[brakepac]

No. Not stood down.. Docked 4 hours pay.

[Acute Instinct]

The oil price slips
by Michael Pascoe
posted on Jul 10 12:08pm

The oil price has fallen fairly solidly for two nights in a row in New York and there is suddenly no shortage of suggestions that it might have peaked, at least for the time being.

A seasoned energy industry executive once told me that, over time, the oil price will never be as good as you hope, or as bad as you fear. For most of this year, it's looked as if he was wrong.
But how quickly worms can turn, or oil prices slip, or maybe just our hopes can get ahead of themselves. The oil price has fallen fairly solidly for two nights in a row in New York and there is suddenly no shortage of suggestions that it might have peaked, at least for the time being.
If you have enough grey hair to remember these things, it tends to be the way that when the popular press is most full of hysteria about any financial market and the politicians are tying themselves in knots over the perceived crisis, the market itself will calm down. As the oil panic has grown in recent weeks, just such a calming period has been overdue.
(I'm tempted to write something about "pouring oil on troubled waters" here...but what can you pour on troubled oil?)
The ease with which oil has retreated about US$10 in two sessions is a small indication of just how much speculative froth there is in the market.
The US Energy Information Agency report overnight that American oil consumption would be down by about 400,000 barrels a day this year underlines how the market mechanism eventually works - put up the price of something enough and less of it will be purchased.
Perhaps typical of the latest wave of commentary is this by MarketWatch.com's Jim Jelter:
Hear that buzz in the commodities market? That's the sound of a cloud of engorged locusts lifting from the crude-oil pit.
The swarm started stirring Monday. By Tuesday, oil prices were down $10 a barrel - their steepest two-day drop since March. Their flight helps explain how oil got to $145 in the first place and throws the door wide open to a mass exodus from one of the hottest market plays of the year.
But even casual observers have been scratching their heads over oil's doubling in price over the past year....
Supportive market fundamentals
Investors, like locusts, are opportunistic. They also move in swarms, descending on whatever is unprotected and likely to yield a bountiful harvest. This time around, hedge funds are widely blamed for leading the commodities frenzy, hiding behind what analysts call "supportive market fundamentals" while whipping up prices to the breaking point. Today's action, with August crude futures down as much as $6 a barrel at $135.14 on the Nymex, sends a strong signal that there's not much upside left to this market (at least for now).
When the swarm moves on, as it now appears to be doing, it leaves behind the stubble that more closely reflects the market's true fundamentals, perhaps even leaving it oversold.
Which, of course, is the perfect time to sow the seeds of the next cycle.
We know oil is never going to be cheap again, but there is every chance it has overshot its fundamental supply/demand over the past few months. It seems the market set itself a target of US$150 a barrel and was determined to get there ? but failing another supply shock somewhere around the world, the immediate chance might have passed.
I hope so. I forgot to fill up my tank on "Tight Tuesday".

[Boardman]

Lordofthewings.

Your dumb "Robin Hood" attitude is part of the reason we are in the sh+t situation with these EBA's and the Grading sytem we are paid under. If a guy has been at it doing exams for years and has the ratings, pay him!!

The name of the game is not to drag people down, but to try and get the young blokes (and girls) trained up experienced and paid for the job that they will do. It is better for everyone in long run including the airline.

If you meet someone who HAS succeeded in getting themselves a good paypacket don't whinge about them. It should be motivation to you to stick with your mates and push for training and SOE as well as a system that will allow more LAMEs to get what they should be paid for the specialised job we carry out.

I am at the top of the ladder by the way and I did not make $140K. I have mates in other industries that have done a fraction of the study I have done without having people's lives in there hands and they earn a lot more than I do. They cannot believe we are not paid a LOT more even at the top of our scale.

Stop being a baby, get it together and go forward with the rest of us. (I am assuming that you are an LAME). We need to get this won and get on with encouraging our younger Engineers to stick at it so the knowledge can be carried on and get them some decent pay for there expertice,. Not try and bring peolpe down.

End of rant.
The Boardman

PS. Off topic. Heard a rumour the Phantom P*sser was sighted in the city in Sydney a few weeks ago. What a legend! Go the Phantom!!

[savage1qan]

Anyone have any idea what was the out come of yesterdays meeting or was it cancelled again???:ugh:

[DELAY 410]

This has a familiar ring to it:

A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man below says: "Yes. You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field. You are between 40 and 42 degrees N. latitude, and between 58 and 60 degrees W. longitude."

"You must be an engineer," says the balloonist.

"I am," replies the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost.

"The man below says, "You must be a manager."

"I am," replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well," says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you are going. You have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in the exact same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault."

[Ngineer]

I agree totally ampclamp:D.

The one thing everyone is learning more and more of this management (as our PIA rolls on) is the extremely below board, low level of integrity everywhere. The lies, harrassment, bullying, hypocrisy all throughout the ranks is sickening. How can they ever fix this mess is beyond me as it is extremely rife.:confused:

[F.O.G.]

ballhopper, **edited....hmm he's gone.....Frozo style......hit and delete**

With ANOTHER wave of guys going across to TEAM-Hyundai, not to mention all the ame's next week, there's even less guys for the ageing 'Legacy' fleet.

Redundancies? only if they park ALL the Boeings permanently......which of course they are certain to do very soon, what with them flying everywhere almost FULL!!

F.U.D. from F.O.G.


So, what's happening around the traps....the flow of gossip seems to have slowed since the 'net' got bunged.......don't let them get a victory there......post dammit!!

BTW, must really pee them off that the hardware was in a certain 'young' managers locker.........kinda makes it hard to bring the castle down......

[Ngineer]

this will be used to get the alaea to pull its head in

You mean the 1500 engineers, and the 30000 or so employees that are behind them.

[Syd eng]

Think he is talking about he fact the gear for the "Net" was in a locker that a certain Young manager owned previously and did so when the gear was put in there.

[Newgen]

I have family who are...let's just say...quite educated in legal matters and I was telling them about the recent tactics of Qantas management. I was given some very good advice on a few matters. The main one being....

If you are dragged into an office for a one on one with your manager (and possibly a HR representative) and instructed that you are "required" to work back on o/t against your wishes, whether you decide to give a reason as to why you can't stay back or not, if you are threatened with loss of pay for engaging in PIA, get them to PUT IT IN WRITING AND SIGN IT!!!!!!!!!!
Also you should record the time/date or the meeting, any other relevant details, and you are totally within your rights (and Qantas policy) to take notes on what is said during the meeting (I have been told that they have been doing this)

This information can possibly be used after the PIA is over to build a case against what could then well be some very nervous managers (or ex-managers)

[Ngineer]

Thanks Newgen.:ok:

[satos]

If you are dragged into an office for a one on one with your manager (and possibly a HR representative) and instructed that you are "required" to work back on o/t against your wishes, whether you decide to give a reason as to why you can't stay back or not, if you are threatened with loss of pay for engaging in PIA, get them to PUT IT IN WRITING AND SIGN IT!!!!!!!!!!
Also you should record the time/date or the meeting, any other relevant details, and you are totally within your rights (and Qantas policy) to take notes on what is said during the meeting (I have been told that they have been doing this)

This information can possibly be used after the PIA is over to build a case against what could then well be some very nervous managers (or ex-managers)
Don't forget to take a union representative with you to the meeting also.
You are within your rights to do so.
Don't let them bully us.

[F.O.G.]

or even better, just tell them you'll be recording the meeting and then once recorder is on speak the names of all those present. Most phones can do it these days....called a voice message!!

I believe they have no choice if one of the parties present, ie you, wants to record the meeting.

ready to be corrected if I'm off the mark.

[Ngineer]

Am I allowed to lean across the table and slap them in the chops, poke their eyes or slap their foreheads?

[Toolpants]

DELAY 410 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/256267-delay-410)


This has a familiar ring to it:

A man is flying in a hot air balloon ……..


I love the analogy delay410.

I was also told of another analogy that is also pretty accurate.

The Qantas management tree is like a tree full of monkeys.
When the monkeys on top look down, all they “think” they see are cute smiling faces looking up.
When the monkeys below look up, all they actually see are a bunch of monkey’s ass-holes.

[Toolpants]

It is obvious now that managements plan to “get LAME’s to quit without their entitled redundancy money” has failed.

I have another plan that will get rid of staff and require no CR/VR payments.


Do NOT renew any of the “2 year contracts” that all the “so called” managers are on. They are then all gone at no expense to the business. A byproduct of this will be staff moral goes through the roof.
Promote permanent staff LAME’s to 2 year contract managers. Those LAMEs are now off the books at no cost to the company.
Repeat step 1 in 2 years time.
Repeat step 2 in 2 years time
Keep repeating until, “hey presto” all staff gone and no VR given.
I guess the last step is to turn off the lights when it’s finished.

[Newgen]

I understand quite a few guys who were hauled in and told to do overtime under threat of losing pay for engaging in industrial action felt too ill to attend work the very next day, knowing they would again be asked to stay back against their wishes.

I've been told that if this is the case it is very important to discuss your situation and level of stress with your doctor and have the wording "patient displays symptoms of a high level of stress" included with any other ailment on your doctors certificate.

I have it on very good authority that if all information arising from these "meetings" is documented, signed by your manager, and any subsequent sick forms include the word stress, you would only be placed in the same situation again by a spectacularly foolish manager...or one who is prepared to lose their house.