Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA [Archive] - Page 3

Sunfish

25th Mar 2008, 05:27

Insider Trader:

FCMC, yes QE IS a world class MRO, as are those others which i have mentioned. That is why it is important for QE to remain competitive in the global market, consolidating its existing worlds best practice with programs such as LEAN, and maintaining expenditure control. To introduce a new aircraft type within the existing synergies that QE have targeted would simply be uneconomical.

Dear Mr. Trader, your quote here is the best example I have seen for many months of management doublespeak, that means precisely zero.

I know you actually believe it, or you wouldn't post it. It tells me a great deal about you as well, and what it tells me is that you have never been at the coal face of ANY business.

It is possible to be world class and lean, but not mean. It requires an enormous amount of effort from the very top of the organisation down and I know this from experience. Furthermore world class MRO's don't end up with cracked drip drays.

How do I know this? Because I used to spout similar drivel when I was a young and impressionable MBA. Promote your managers from the floor and get rid of the theoreticians and consultants that thought this guff up. That would be a good first step.

P.S. I have visited Lufthansa Technik (if thats what it's now called), and they were doing things in 1980 that I will bet my left **** that you guys are still not doing, and their canteen served beer at lunchtime to LAMES as well :p

Millet Fanger

25th Mar 2008, 06:16

Mr Trader, I hope the castle that you live in is not made of glass. After having a go at MENDAERO and Chemical with regard to their spelling and grammar, you butcher your own post with numerous errors.

I do not have a vast knowledge of LEAN within the entire QE world, but if what I have seen of it in SYD makes QE a world class MRO, I would be flabbergasted. LEAN has got a lot of inept 'engineers' time away from aircraft (usually on double dollars) and produced some document benches (which we should have already had if we were world's best practice). Oh yes, I forgot. We have a couple of sets of traffic lights, very useful. Some parts cabinets, which were removed because QE isn't world's best practice. Apart from that, what has LEAN produced?

Mr Trader, please identify other world leading MROs who treat their employees so poorly? No increase in renumeration for 28 months (and counting)! No type training, or very little, for 5 years (and counting)! Oh, I nearly forgot, a management team who are unable to lead. (Why do they have two clocks on the wall at SIT with different times on them?)

another superlame

25th Mar 2008, 11:12

If Qf is a world leading MRO why do the QE 380 team have to fight tooth and nail for every bit of A380 infrastructure and tooling. Qf want the aircraft but they really dont want all the hassles that come with maintaining it.

Johnny V

25th Mar 2008, 20:34

I have returned to explain all

Perth - Will vote against (but still the self few will vote for their payrises)

Adelaide and Brisbane ACS - Will be 50/50 so will not matter, once again thinking of only themselves

Other outbases - Inconsequential

Melbourne - Whilst being the Union HQ of Aus, it has the most % 'high levels of any port' so some will say NO NO NO but vote YES YES YES especially our company puppets that continually come in on OT despite being asked 'politely' not to Selfishness knows no bounds, God love it.

Sydney - BASE - Much like Melbourne as in doin OT but crying solidarity

Sydney - SIT - Most selfish bunch in the network all they care about is the A380 while they fight over that all will be lost

Sydney - SDT - Exactly like Melbourne biggest whingers poorest performers doing OT hand over fist

SO YOU SEE OUR PUPPETS HAVE EFFECTIVELY NEGATED YOUR UNION"S GOOD TACTICS,
yes I say GOOD because no one else have annoyed the sh!t out of us like they have, Hand grenade throwing SP, Brick Walls PC and WV, Volatile MW and WB, I control Heavy BB yet all it means NOTHING because you LOSERS will vote YES
GOD I LOVE IT HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

50% + 1 that's all we need and because of your patheticness we now have got it

The Mr Fixit

25th Mar 2008, 21:47

Well Well Johnny V you are a t@rd no doubt, but you are right about about one thing

Your company puppets are PATHETIC

Not a moral bone in their body whinge, p!ss and moan about the union but refuse to actually do anything but line their pockets with blood money.

On the other hand the majority of the silent membership are good men and will vote accordingly

THE MAIN POINTS OF THIS EBA ARE

Its does not give a 5% payrise to EVERYONE

If your one of the 70% THAT MAY think about how YOU would feel to be DUPED by your work colleagues

IT ONLY CAMOUFLAGES NASTIES THAT ARE TO COME

NO MAN TRANSIT

SYDNEY PRECINCT

PAYRISES FOR DMMs, MSs, DTMs and other scum who leech off our strengths but do nothing to assist our cause

IF YOU VOTE YES YOU CONDEHM YOURSELVES AS OTHERS

TIME TO MAKE A STAND
NOT FOR MONEY, NOT FOR PROMOTION
BUT FOR WHAT IS RIGHT
AN EQUAL OUTCOME FOR ALL

Talkwrench

25th Mar 2008, 22:51

Hi Johnny V, Re: post 581: I hope you are not basing your predictions on info from the same sources that told you the likely outcome of the Heavy Maintenance Flexibilities in EBA 8 Ballot. Just to refresh: Management said Avalon will get up, Brisbane will get up easily and Melbourne will be line ball 50/50. The actual outcomes: Avalon (the last bastion of the industrially compliant LAME) went down (although it was very close). Brisbane went down 55 to 35 (not a whitewash but a very clear result). Melbourne went down 104 to 9 (yes, you read correctly, 104 no, 9 yes). So John, I daresay that you don’t quite have the handle on the situation that think you have. But then again, when you’re playing with the house’s money, who cares!!

murrayatwell

26th Mar 2008, 08:22

Hi All,

Has anyone read the latest EBA Notice from those inexperienced clowns in the Bexley Bunker? Seems the man that once held my position has fallen back in favour with SP, PC and WV. Does anyone no what his plans are or when and if they are going to strike. :D

Sunfish

26th Mar 2008, 08:57

A troll alert.

The Mr Fixit

26th Mar 2008, 10:00

Yes Sunfish, Troll alert but the pr!ck may be onto something, ALAEA notice out today !!!

PIOT Bord

26th Mar 2008, 11:33

QE management decide that it's makes business sense to be 'at war' with it's engineering staff. No EBA for LAMEs, no serious training for anyone but a select few, staff shortages, maintenance being forced through with undue haste, inadequate renumeration.

Although the investigations into the last few incidents are yet to be published, there does seem to be a common thread. Does anybody else get the feeling that the holes in the cheese slices are starting to align?

Konehead

26th Mar 2008, 23:20

ALAEA notice out today !!!
What feedback are they fishing for exactly? Some different way to say "Get F*cked your offer isn't good enough"?
Reading between the lines, I don't think they're entirely satisfied with the "best solution" recommended by the consultant. Nice to know what that might be...

The masked goatrider

27th Mar 2008, 00:12

Have heard that the consultant (lets call him bruce) has recommended only 1 solution and that solution will be rubber stamped next Wed. It seems that the union have some inside running on the operation of the airline and know what is about to come. No-man transits, a common Syd roster for all, no training, mergers in Mel and Bne and line maint outsourcing. They will be opening up exciting new opportunities at Avalon though, just don't be expected to get paid for your licences.

Konehead

27th Mar 2008, 00:47

So should I get my CV updated? I hear Virgin's employing. And they train you. On Embraers! And B1/B2 no less! :hmm:

The Mr Fixit

27th Mar 2008, 13:18

2 left from CBR
50+ from AVV
10+ from BNE Hvy
3 from Base

It seems the wages at QF just don't measure up to world rates and don't get me started about the training !!!!

Short_Circuit

27th Mar 2008, 13:19

Does anyone else smell a rat here?

How can any mob of manager do what has been done, sabotage a great working group, to engineer it to fail,

unless it is being done to set us up for a fall. A fall that will see the end of QE.

The result

1. save a few dollars in the short term and earn a big sweet bonus

2. with the arrival of 150 odd new aircraft, I think QF have no idea how to service them and just wants to outsource the problem.

After all, this is new new way of doing business at QF, outsource and claim compensation.

I wish I could just give up on a defect and say it is someone else's problem.

I can't and won't...

:=:=:=:=

SC

The_King

29th Mar 2008, 01:34

Maybe some time ago, QE approached JHAS and asked them to buy the business. Transfer of business, no VR or CR, and no more engineering staff on the books.
JHAS said, no thanks. Not while the business is like it is.
They said, when there is less staff and more profit, come back and see us.

So VR started and it was costing money. Then the plan was hatched to upset as many staff as possible so they just walk out the door.

As soon as QE numbers are down and profits are up, someone will finally agree to buy.

Dicko’s plans with QE are always short term as he has always intended to get rid of it.
So maybe our plan should be; never be profitable so no sane company will ever agree to buy. I know, Sounds silly, but if you want to stay employed by Qantas you have to be silly.

Dragger of Knuckles

29th Mar 2008, 08:12

In the distance I hear a sound, it is faint at the moment but it is getting louder by the day

It is the sound of drums beating

sickofqf

29th Mar 2008, 09:25

Classic dropped into ADL this afternoon with a cracked J class window.....
.....another piece of cheese is lined up........

Good one GD,KM,MA-H etc....you clowns are going to be remembered as the guys who destroyed 80+ years of safe flying, the way these cheese slices are lining up........

QF's safety record is worth WAAAAY more than you think in the flying public's mind.

QF sure won't be able to charge double for business class once they stack one!!

soldier of fortune

29th Mar 2008, 10:03

johny v - i am glad you are stuck in that bne heavy maint ****hole-
you looser
the ALAEA had the chance to carry out industrail action including a ban on OT -THEY had the gun but could not pull the trigger-
but keep peddling the bull**** asshole

Konehead

29th Mar 2008, 10:17

QF's safety record is worth WAAAAY more than you think in the flying public's mind.
It's the only thing left for many.
Punctuality?
Cabin service?
A new interior?
Operational IFE?
A Dash 8 to CBR?
We're only just holding our own against our competitors and no wonder. A hull loss and loss of life will, for many, remove the last reason left to fly QF. :mad: :ugh:
At least the managers will be comfortably well off in their new jobs in another corporation, well removed from facing the consequences of their destructive decisions.

The Mr Fixit

29th Mar 2008, 11:06

Had a chat to mate in syd base he said that the guys there are sick of the bull****, management has been running 'secret info meetings' with special LAMEs asking them what was the feeling on the floor and can they 'assist' pushing the company's line.
A Freudian slip was when one of the DMMs taking the meet said the union was winning, when quizzed he said "No I meant the company were winning, the men are turning on the exec'
I suspect the union's position of biding their time may be having the desired effect on the bunnies in management.

Stay strong
Fight hard
Don't give up

Soldier of F, are you drunk ? Johnny V is an obvious company stooge you berate him then side with him :confused:

Dragger of Knuckles

29th Mar 2008, 11:14

Many Brand new aircraft on order

Exorbitant executives pay rises

Several outstanding EBAs

Lease companys who demand cash

Old aircraft turning away pax

share price going thru the floor

An old adage about when a man's down you kick him

Hold a moment I'm getting ma boots on

Short_Circuit

30th Mar 2008, 01:13

Classic dropped into ADL this afternoon with a cracked J class window.....

Lucky the window pane did not pop out along with a J/C pax! :eek:

How would they explain that one?

Long Bay Mauler

30th Mar 2008, 02:00

They could always trot Jimmy Bow Tie out and say its an "incident" and not and "accident".....................:rolleyes:

company_spy

30th Mar 2008, 04:31

Question, had the dinosaur with the window issue undergone heavy maintenance offshore in the recent past?

If so, it's time to go...... John Vincent.

The Mr Fixit

30th Mar 2008, 06:19

mmmmmmmmm that's a good question............... EBW ??????

Short_Circuit

30th Mar 2008, 06:24

From memory, outsourced 747-300's

EBW was first
EBV second
EBY just released

Cabin window inspections are part of the D check routine I believe.

Happy to be corrected.

V (below) So yet another problem directly related to outsourcing maintenance to Asian MRO's. :=

Redstone

30th Mar 2008, 06:30

Cabin window inspections are also part of a C check routine.

employes perspective

30th Mar 2008, 08:41

where is CASA in all this,it's time the government step in enough is enough

Propstop

30th Mar 2008, 12:37

It is very obvious to me that QF was once a great place to work and in days gone by a great airline on which to travel. I have one family member who was an international FA and after 10 years was happy to go, and said the airline she joined was not the same one she left. I still have another family member who is still working for QF.
I am a LAME who lives in Oz but travels to work overseas where I work for an airline there. All my travel is on QF, the only player on this route and I am increasingly being more apprehensive every time I get on board.
There was one occasion where the crew had to do a reboot three times to enable us to depart, a dark cabin puts the wind up the punters, and the captain sounded VERY frustrated as he said the same thing had to be done on the previous sector too.
I had a chat to the CSM and he said the MELs were measured in volumes, not pages. The frustration was evident in the whole crew from the captain down, but everybody did their best to make it a pleasant flight after a 2 hour delay.
A lot of the passengers looked at each other with worried expressions too.
Lately, please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that more than 60% of the QF flights I have travelled on have had some mechanical delay which I attribute to the culture flowing from the management as I know the wonderful people at the coal face are working their guts out because they are total professionals.
I sincerely hope there is not the big one with a huge loss of life as the odds are I could be on it, but it seems with the current management that this is the only thing which will really shake them up. With all the incidents now happening now on a weekly basis we all can only hope and pray.
Please also do not tell me the maintenance done overseas on the QF aircraft is as higher standard as would be done by the Australian LAME's. We call some hangars 'healing centres' because if you park an aircraft there long enough and then wash it, after a flurry of paperwork it is miraculously serviceable again.
There I have now got it off my chest and now the thread can get back on topic.
Prop.

Short_Circuit

30th Mar 2008, 22:36

Propstop

You have every right to voice you concerns & complaints but may I
suggest you put it in writing and post it to QF at the Coward St offices, Mascot.

If all the paying pax were to voice their concerns in writing,
then they may have to listen a bit harder and "The Board" may act
to protect the bottom line (and safety)

Dragger of Knuckles

31st Mar 2008, 09:25

Had a visitor to the backwoods on last week, I hadn't met him before but the boys said he was from the Lean Team and he looked purdy but he said some crazy things to us in AVV.

Quote " The EBA's not signed off but we can wait no longer time is running out so the SYD Precinct is on track, MEL merger on the cards once the Int. guys agree to new roster, BNE roster change but there will be no extra training in the immediate future or hiring of personnel " Unquote

I almost p!ssed myself "You'll never service the aircraft you don't have enough men especially if you don't train or hire"

Quote " No you're right we don't but we have the no man transit" he smiled and walked off leaving us all in a daze. I asked the boys if they knew what he was talkin bout they shrugged their shoulders and went back to work Im still at a loss

WTF IS THE SYD PRECINCT ? ? ? ? AND WTF IS THE NO MAN TRANSIT ? ? ? ? ? ?

Konehead

31st Mar 2008, 10:16

Typical egg-head manager, failing to communicate on an understandable level to an audience. Did he ask you to "cross the Bridge of Trust" or tell you to "enter the Intelligent Space"? Did he mention the Four Pillars? :yuk:
WTF IS THE SYD PRECINCT ? ? ? ?
The Precinct is the plan to centralise planning of all labour and maintenance in Syd. SIT A330 licenced LAMEs will find themselves working in Base on A330s & A380s, Domestic B737 licences will find themselves doing turnarounds at SIT and Base may do some turnarounds/maintenance at SIT. It's to supposedly better utilise the manpower we have. Good idea in theory. Pity about the cultural differences and geographical separation between the three workplaces. We'll all be tearing our hair out at seeing the way the other half work. "F**KING DOMESTIC C**TS!" say the Base guys, "F**KING BASE C**TS" say the SIT guys, F**KING SIT C**TS!" say the Domestic guys.
We used to plan and do the necessary maintenance well for decades. Then things got changed and it all turned into a **** burrito. So now we're going to refold the tortilla and make it a **** enchilada? I don't get it!
AND WTF IS THE NO MAN TRANSIT ? ? ? ? ? ?
LAMEs no longer do preflight inspections. It's allowable IAW the manufacturer on the Next Gen aircraft (A330 & B738). Not sure how the company gets around the manufacturers recommendation for preflight checks on the ageing classic fleet (B734, B747, B767). Would YOU fly on a 20-year old aircraft without an engineer doing a preflight check? This is gonna be manna from heaven for the union and it's sympathisers in the media. A new and interesting way to panic the bums on seats. Not to mention hastening the advent of a red tail sticking out of the ground somewhere.

blackhander

1st Apr 2008, 05:23

Back to the commision apparently

REALITY

1st Apr 2008, 05:40

What's this about the commission? :rolleyes:

blackhander

1st Apr 2008, 06:04

Notice from ALAEA today. Looks like they're on their way back to the commision for a new PIA ballot

wingers

1st Apr 2008, 07:55

I thought it was an April fools joke, but looks like it is not.

After all this time we are back to square one

The offer is a good one and we wont get anymore, there will be pain for all concerned, this is unbelivable, mortages going up, strikes, lockouts will happen , i am very very pis#ed off

What will happen? i can guarantee all that of our jobs will go offshore,

Sunfish

1st Apr 2008, 08:49

Not very good trolling Wingers. As a general rule, when there is trouble in financial markets, as there is right now, smart businesses minimise their exposure to overseas markets, or as the saying goes, "keep their money close to home."

It would be an extremely brave (some might even say foolhardy) management who went and outsourced stuff in the middle of a financial meltdown. Home is best. No one knows where the Yuan or the Singapore dollar is going to go next.

upsidefront

1st Apr 2008, 09:12

NO to OT bans.
NO to Higher duties ban.

Withdraw form extended rosters is the way to go!!
Bring on the 8 hour rosters!!

See them squirm!!

The Mr Fixit

1st Apr 2008, 16:40

Here we go here we go here we go
PIA is the only the only song we know
here we go here we go here we go
f%&k them all
IT'S TIME TO PAY

ALAEA Fed Sec

2nd Apr 2008, 04:50

NO to OT bans.
NO to Higher duties ban.

Withdraw form extended rosters is the way to go!!
Bring on the 8 hour rosters!!

This post and the one from sickofqf although supportive for a drive on a fairer wage outcome will do the casue harm.

Please understand that the ALAEA is co-ordinating and seeking support from members along a structured path that has been designed by Senior Industrial people so that it does not fail.

To support your wage push, please do not encourage members to vote no in favour of another plan that some members think will work better. I understand that 8 hour rosters would hurt them in fact it may be enough. We need the IA ballot also supported so we have the other options as well.

Two days before we start PIA they offer half a point and a free pair of workboots.

Not this time mate. Qantas have been told that 3% plus sweateners is not enough. They had their chance to give everyone some fat but they tried to give it only to 51%. Our members said not good enough and we listened. Our members want the 3% barrier broken and they are not in the mood for compromising.

If we only go to 8 hour rosters, the laws will allow them to bring scabs in on 457 visas legally. We already hve Govt. support that they will not allow it if we take PIA. Please do not jeopardise that or tell members that other options are better when this is not true.

I am a full-on supporter of fighting QF, let's just use our best weapon right now!

The majority of our members feel the same. Please do not send out mixed messages and do not cut our options down. We need them open to get you a better pay deal.

cheers

sickofqf

2nd Apr 2008, 05:35

After a brief chat with the Fed Sec I have removed my post as it was indeed counter-productive to our cause.

I am very content with the path the ALAEA are taking now and will be voting firmly YES to the ballot as they have very carefully thought through this action.

As an aside, it wouldn't hurt if a few more members phoned or emailed the exec to let them know how much we appreciate what they are doing. SP sounded utterly pooped and a few supportive emails may help to give them the energy they need to carry this through!

Thanks for the chat Steve, sorry if my post here didn't come across as supportive!

PIOT Bord

2nd Apr 2008, 05:52

The ALAEA exec. have plenty of support here. They have done a great job so far. They haven't told us "this is the best we will get", which is all the last exec. would bleat. I have not heard of anyone who has said they will be voting NO.

Bring on PIA. With any luck the atrocious QE management will tumble as a result. Bring on a management who will build Qantas Engineering, not destroy it!!!

ALAEA Fed Sec

2nd Apr 2008, 06:14

Had a chat, very content now!

No problems mate.

Guys there are answers to every question, doubt or concern. Ring us and read the notices, a lot of questions will be re-raised in regular notices I will be putting together.

The most important thing from now is that we all sing the same tune.

cheers

wingers

2nd Apr 2008, 10:57

To Fed Sec , this is a big mistake, gentlemen mark my words, this will cost us dearly.

I hope i am wrong but i really see some very hard times ahead, please be very careful in what you choose for members,

This will be very messy, what is the outcome, what do we want exactly ? we should be clear on this.

Millet Fanger

2nd Apr 2008, 11:49

Wingers, are you filling in for LAMEA380 (Sobast, etc., etc.) while on course. In your earlier post you say The offer is a good one and we wont get anymore and i am very very pis#ed off

The only other person I have heard who thought the offer was good was the Fat Controller. Mind you, he thought the first offer was good as well. 88% of Qantas LAMEs disagreed. I guess he doesn't know his workforce very well.

Plenty of people are pi$$ed off though, pi$$ed off at the company. It wouldn't surprise me if the vote in favour of the PIA will be higher.

To all the boys (and girls) at Bexley - If you keep up the good work, I'll nominate you for an eXcel award. Congrats.

Johnny V

4th Apr 2008, 02:18

Raffaelli he's our man, if he can't stitch you up no one can.

Guaranteed he find just the right reason to put your pathetic PIA action off the rails.

By the way to all the Overtime lads helping us out, a big thank you and don't worry about the pathetic list that's being compiled we have a bigger one.

Scab training back on from next week combined with the OT we have the ALAEA scum on toast.

another superlame

4th Apr 2008, 06:27

So it is time to pull the strike breakers out of retirement and make them earn their retainer.
I wonder if this means that JHAS will get some of the A380 work. QF wont want their new pride and joy to held to industrial action ransom.

And now with the Brisvegas HM boys being told they wont be getting the A330 HM work things are starting to get really interesting. Management couldn't dangle that carrot for much longer could they.

So the mass exodus from Bris HM will now likely double in size.And with only so many people available thru the likes of Bermil and Forstaff it doesn't look like Bris will be a very viable facility.

wingers

4th Apr 2008, 08:35

Lets not start arguing like we did last time PIA was agreed upon

Several points i want clarified by the FED SEC.

1. Why did you endores the initial ageement ( the press will have a field day when the sh#t hits the fan)

2. Why are we not allowed to vote on the EBA ( the one originally endored by the FED SEC)

3. Can we please outline for all to see why we are seeking PIA, what exactly are we seeking $ wise and conditions wise?

These are simple questions, i expect an answer to these, it is easy to decare lets go PIA , but people have bills to pay, i have consistetly said i want rational dialogue.

Please all get a grip before the landscape changes for ever ( LAME'S LETS BE VERY VERY CAREFUL ) please think and answer my points. If there is a logical answer to my points i will be supportive. I do not understan how we are in this postion.

FEED SEC Please, please, please, reassure me and answer my points

ALAEA Fed Sec

4th Apr 2008, 12:04

Sure Wingers happy to answer your questions because once explained even the most conservative of members understand what we are doing. I might even cut your Questions out and put them into a notice. I look forward to your support when answered or some other options after considering my answer to point 2.

1. Original agreement was endorsed when the President and I added the value of all the extras and determined that they were worth more than any other agreement in the past. The press won’t have a field day on us, when have we ever looked bad in the past 2 years with the press? I think they will be more interested in the safety lapses caused by scabs, some of whom retired 15 years ago and will be thrown onto a tarmac under all those new lovely procedures. We are ready for this.
2. Can’t vote on it because Qantas won’t put it in writing. Since the in principle agreement they have constantly tried to rip us off with the actual words. They agreed to 1% extra to all in accumulation super funds, now they are saying it only goes to some. They are watering down our current rostering clauses. They are changing fixed term employee lengths despite it not being in the in principle document. They refuse to give us full access to the quota information or give us numbers on the new levels. They initially gave commitments to HM in Australia. Then they said we had to meet their performance targets that they can change so it then becomes a Claytons commitment. So simply, it is not in writing as we agreed in principle, it can’t even go to a vote if we wished, please pass this message on.
3. We want 5% headline wage rise pa. The 3% plus extras has a hit and miss effect. Some members do well whilst other just get angrier. It’s time to get something for all. The full reasons were outlined in court today by our consultant. The transcript available soon. He is Bill Mansfield, former Commissioner and 17 years as the Assistant ACTU Secretary. He is astounded that Qantas have hoodwinked the workforce with this 3% policy and taken money that you need to pay your bills out of your pocket every year. It’s time to get what we deserve.I know our members all have different views. Some ask us to think very carefully about the next steps but please remember we do this for a job. We have the best advice on tap and support from some very prominent Australians who hold key positions in this country. We have shown plenty of restraint, some would say too much. We have acted in good faith all the way and given our friends across the table every opportunity to find a suitable outcome. We have followed our member’s directions from day one and will continue to do so. Please remember though all, the ship gets steered by one wheel, it’s bloody hard to point it in the right direction when you’re getting belted around in a storm so lets all help each other so we get to our destination safely.

cheers

woderwick

4th Apr 2008, 12:41

On ya Fed Sec! If that doesn't clarify things for the blokes, then I really dunno what will! Managers where I am have their heads so far up their own ar$es that they seem dumbfounded that members rejected the offer. They are running around asking us if we understood what we were voting for? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT NO MEANS MR MANAGER? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT 5% is? You dont get something for nothing, clowns. You want flexible rosters, be prepared to show the money. People are fed up of being pushed around whilst going backwards. JAM IT WHERE IT FITS AND BUGGER OFF BACK TO THE SOUTH EAST ISLANDS!!!!!

Anulus Filler

4th Apr 2008, 14:54

Thanks Steve for your detailed answer. This is the sort of information which I commend you for supplying to us all. It has certainly shed more light on the modus operandi of our so called 'friends'. I am now more determined than ever to vote NO! :ok:

Sunfish

4th Apr 2008, 19:12

Well done Mr. Fed Sec!

rudderless1

4th Apr 2008, 21:16

Yippee the rudder is back. We will soon see how well the hatches have been battened down and how many scabs will jump ship before the storm.

The jellyfish will soon be sorted, back into the sea with you!:D:ok:

Time to stand up for your worth or continue being conned.

The Mr Fixit

4th Apr 2008, 23:25

No matter the obstacles, no matter the red tailed puppets that stand in our way, no matter the scabs who take blood money to do us in, no matter the fools that do OT and endanger our training and manpower for short term gains.

We have had ENOUGH OF THE LIES, people who don't live up to what they say have no place at the negotiating table, the minority of self centred cowards will be washed away in the ensuing tsunami .

TIME TO REAP THE LIES YOU HAVE SOWN

another superlame

5th Apr 2008, 01:48

Mr Fixit unless there is some serious and hard nosed PIA there will be no tsunami. These EBA negotiations are a joke in how long they have taken to go this far. Even this last offer has taken 3 months to get a full vote done, all this does is allow Qf to get there safe guards in place.

What ever happens it needs to be swift and sure,the ALAEA needs to listen to what the members are asking and act upon it. They thought they were acting in the interests of the membership only to be shot down in flames. this goes to show how far out of touch the upper eschelons of the association are with the people they represent. If they listened 3 months ago and acted upon those notions rather than be blind sided by the company then maybe things would be a little further along.

Right now everything is back to square one.

Also while QF is having there way, QF might be looking at JHAS for 330 HM. Very interesting to say the least.

wingers

5th Apr 2008, 01:49

Fed Sec thanks, it sheds a lot of light on things am happy with most of your response but still have to question your below answer to point 1

"Original agreement was endorsed when the President and I added the value of all the extras and determined that they were worth more than any other agreement in the past."

What does this eaxactly mean, are you saying the original deal was good or not good, i still do not understand how an agreement in principle was reached, announced and then gone pear shaped.

Are you saying that when you tallied the extras extra all was good, you say this deal was better than any in the past, i assume that we now want more, when is 5% not 5%. I just do not understand the reasoning and your answer to point 1.

You will never get 100% agreement, my fear is that you endored this then got feedback from a few radicals then got worried, then backtracked, i hope that you do not make flip flops any more.

If this vote leads to a smaller majority this time around, (talking to a few blokes, i think it will), what then?

We all know people openly encourage PIA, but a great number will do the opposite when the vote comes, my gut tells me it will be close.

I hope all goes well but i think we are in for one big long stink and i hope that both sides can see reason an sort this out, its nerve racking.

sickofqf

5th Apr 2008, 06:11

Wingers,
You can hardly say they listened to a few radicals. They travelled the country and spoke to everyone who could be bothered coming to the meetings. Let me tell you, the meeting I was at was 100% against the deal that was tabled and there were nearly 100 blokes from base maint at it.....and they are the most liberal in the workforce.

Says something when the management have managed to piss the Sydney servicing blokes off to that extent!

......noticed the new 'Boeing' manager did a night shift with Yappydog.......good to see, hope he does one every month or two to keep abreast of things.

i wonder how he's feeling today !!

Dragger of Knuckles

5th Apr 2008, 11:21

Agree Totaly Sickofqf

I'm right behind the exec for the first time ever we are standing up

Good words Fed Sec, echoed the words of the Fed Pres when he visited us for the EBA meetings "If the company live up to their word we will also if they don't we will do as the membership demands"

This part of the world says it is not enough whille JV fiddles heavy maint burns

I'm backing PIA as our only way to get a fair deal and I'm ready

By the way is it true IO told the FP that extra would be put in to get us all a level and then reneged at the last meeting ?
The Forstaff boys feel the same way, cheated by management lies

blubak

6th Apr 2008, 05:31

maybe somebody should should ask QF who has pocketed the interest on all the backpay accumulated since jan 07.just reasonable to expect it should be in our pockets i would have thought!.
also with regard to any roster that the company are pushing to have put in place-lets tell them the EBA comes first-bit more pressure wont hurt us but maybe it will them in more ways than we can imagine.

Bolty McBolt

6th Apr 2008, 06:19

sickofqf said...
......noticed the new 'Boeing' manager did a night shift with Yappydog.......good to see, hope he does one every month or two to keep abreast of things

Just for my own edification...Yappydog is a senoir lame in base or a DM in same??

YOSHI

6th Apr 2008, 10:21

Yappy is a senior....

Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!

As for me, I am behind the exec. in their bid for PIA.

QE & QF are just like a bunch of poker players, they are trying to 'bluff' us with thier 'negotiating' tactics. What they haven't realized yet is we have had enough of their lies and cheating. How can they defend their position when the company is making record profits? How can they ask us to take a pay 'rise' that is less than the cost of living increase when the Board and Managers give themselves pay rises beyond belief?

It is interesting to note that in all of the diatribe the company is preaching this time around they have not dragged out the usual threat of outsourcing aircraft maintenence!! Maybe its because there is nowhere else to send it!!!!

That being the case what are we waiting for?

Why is anyone worried?

Unemployment at 30 year low....

No major apprentice training (by anyone) in Aus in the last 5-10 years....

If QE make us all redundant, where can QF get a workforce big enough, and suitably trained, to service AND repair their aircraft in Aus?

I don't think the logistics of getting 'A' checks done overseas would be economical, do you? And how many suitably licensed people are there, in any of the Line Station cities, who are unemployed and waiting for QE to offer them a job at the pay rates that QE think is fair? I think QF would have a lot or 'Gate Guardians' parked accros the country and around the world!!!

QF is playing a game, it is up to us LAMEs to play them at their own game.

Stand Firm, Stand Strong, Stand up for each other and get the pay RISE we deserve, not the insult QF is offering!!!

One last thing, who pays our wages? QF(Airlines) or QE(Engineering), if it is QF, then why do we have to 'bid' for our own work? More company tactics to make us feel vulnerable?

Sunfish

6th Apr 2008, 10:55

It may have passed your attention, but Forstaff have advertised for a "General Manager" at Avalon on Friday. Duties include industrial negotiations, compliance with contracts, and all sorts of other stuff designed to ensure sweetness and light.

In other words, actually delivering on whatever it is that Forstaff signed up for....leaving a higher "senior manager" out of the loop and off the hook.

Needless to say, Sunfish will not be applying. This is not a growth opportunity.

JETTRONIC

6th Apr 2008, 12:57

Hmmm! All this negotiating with the EBA got me wondering just what is GD's hourly rate compared to mine. Well after some research I worked it out. Including bonuses for last financial year, it worked out to be $1012.00 per hour.:sad: So my question is what are you on?????

I'm with you fed sec and the rest of the crew, we deserve more.

Show me the money........

YOSHI

6th Apr 2008, 15:48

soldier of fortune

I see where you're comming from, but can you imagine any of those people arriving here and looking at what a truck driver gets on the mines these days. How long do you think they will stay working for QE when they can earn much more elswhere, and not just on the mines. Just look at the recently qualified AMEs, how many of them are staying on?

QE are not able to attract, or keep, new (young) aircraft workers.

QE does not pay enough to get the type of people it needs.

If it did it would not need to keep as many LAMEs employed as it does!!!

Young people can, and do. earn similar money to AMEs, with less training, exams and without the need to do 24/7 shifts.

One last thing before I retire (to bed). Where is Chemical Ali and his friends??

Maybe the smell of a (A380) course has quietened them down?

Good night for now!!!!

LAMEA380

6th Apr 2008, 20:15

Hi There comrades, looks like you a finally going to get what you deserve, great stuff, my predictions are on the money.

Lets see

PIA gets up
rumblings can be heard in the membership
stop works happens
lock out ensues
panick sets iin
membership fracturesBut wait!!! a saviour is in sight..... yes yes, the membership desert the ALAEA in droves.

But where do they go...Please wait and see

The end of the ALAEA... soon you will agree!!!

YOSHI

6th Apr 2008, 22:22

LAMEA380

Now that's what I call QE managment tactics!!!!!

But the real mangers are still afraid to threaten us with our jobs!!!!!!

600ft-lb

6th Apr 2008, 23:01

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is a report on Channel 7 news tonight about some 'major airline' and maintenance deficiencies. Any one else see the shorts for that ???

ALAEA Fed Sec

6th Apr 2008, 23:33

I have heard about it but not seen.

Wingers the in-principle Agreement was better than previous Agreements our members had certified. It was only the very odd member who could tally the extras up to give him 5%pa or more. Most were around the 4 mark if averaged out but what changed after we agreed with Qf was the removal of the extra 1% super for some. This now left a small number of ALAEA members with only 3% pa which was basically in line with all rises in the past. Though small in number, these individuals rightly demonstrated and won support from their workmates to say no until all members benefited. Of course this was not the only reason members were not happy.

Do I think it was a good Agreement? I did when we agreed to it but when it started to become watered down I felt cheated as I’m sure many members did. One other ppruner over the weekend commented that we (FP and FS) are out of touch with the members to even agree in the first place. Maybe he is right. We did however run the terms past about 20 individuals before we said yes to anything.

As for flip flops, if you put a $5000 deposit on a car worth $50,000 and go to pick it up on your next day off. The dealer tells you it didn’t pass the roadworthy and needed $2000 worth of repairs that he was adding to the price. Who do you think is doing the flip flop?

Translate that to the EBA discussions. You agree in-principle to support a set of terms (I will now focus on the rostering ones) and knowing that our Perth boys and gal did a brilliant job to protect our right to agree to rosters. They throw the final copy in front of you and it says “LAMEs can’t unreasonably withhold Agreement to new extended hours rosters”. Something you never even discussed with the airline for them to change and would have resulted in them being able to put you on any roster they like. Would you like me to have done this flip flop or sit there and say, it’s ok, I don’t want to upset Geoff and his appointees, you can keep it there. So we demand it comes out and a more appropriate set of words go in only to find that key managers in Mel and Syd are running around telling LAMEs that they will be merged and all on one roster as soon as the EBA is signed up. I won’t print what I want to write next

Your Executive and I make decisions on behalf of you and other LAMEs in this country. We answer to them and no other. We try (and sometimes it gets very trying) to stay in touch with members and adjust our actions accordingly. We aren’t in the game to make friends with airline managers and are fully aware that they wouldn’t even bother talking to us unless they wanted something.

If we get a smaller majority it doesn’t concern us in fact we expect it. This time around we only need 50% plus 1. I will test my judgement of the membership and take a guess at 70% in favour with a 75% return rate. I better prepare for our next day in court.

cheers

Talkwrench

6th Apr 2008, 23:51

Ahh. LAMEA380, you’re back! Great! Would you care to elaborate on your claims? I note that you refused to respond to the reasonable questions I posed back in post #432 about similar claims you made in post #422. Allow me to refresh your memory: ' Gday LAMEA380, Re: your post #422: ‘the redun(d)ancy wont be an issue, as they will be sacked, they will not have an agreement and will all be on the outer looking in.’ How did you come to the conclusion that the LAME’s will be sacked? Also, could you please explain how the AWU will negotiate a LAME agreement when they aren’t respondents to the LAME EBA? Finally are you currently employed by Qantas as a permanent full time LAME or are you commenting as an outsider? Thanks.'

wingers

6th Apr 2008, 23:57

Thanks for the reply and clarification, is much appreciated

I understand and wish you Good luck and hope we can get this sorted soon

blubak

7th Apr 2008, 00:12

Well-fedsec,
U are 100% right about us all being merged etc etc so why at this stage should a new roster even be considered.Im sure a lot of members can recall that less then 12 months ago a roster was introduced by qf management basically just to cause pain.Hmmmmmm-wonder who is enduring the most pain now!!FEDSEC-before u recommend it to the members,pls look very carefully and deep into this proposal and find out EVERY reason why it is so suddenly important for qf to be running around trying to get it in.
Could be as many points in there as there was in the EBA that were never intended to be complied with once the agreement is signed-THEN,ITS TOO LATE!.

LAMEA380

7th Apr 2008, 00:42

TALKWRENCH

When is an EBA not an EBA, when the employer applies to get it cancelled.

If they apply, then this MUST be granted , at this stage it looks a fair bet, that means all existing conditions and redundancy provisions no longer apply , they are inconsequential and they are lost.

No agreement exists and no previous agreement has any effect, then the fun and games begin.

But dont take my word for it, i suggest you find out for yourself.

Talkwrench

7th Apr 2008, 01:09

Thanks LAMEA380. Although you didn’t answer my questions, I guess any response is better than none at all. You are quite the politician! You assert that it is a ‘fair bet’ that QE will apply to have the EBA cancelled. What do you base this assertion on? Your view points may be taken with more than a grain of salt if you were to back them with some facts. Your moniker suggests that you are employed as a permanent full time LAME with QE. Are you?

600ft-lb

7th Apr 2008, 01:58

The one protection the Government introduced was that the EBA redundancy entitlements would be “preserved” for a maximum of 12 months after the EBA is terminated. That will help some people when a company suddenly finds itself in financial strife and has to lay people off quickly: it won’t have time to pull these stunts.

But Tristar, like many manufacturers, has known for years that it was going to have to lay off workers, and it has played the waiting game to minimise the workers’ entitlements. After it announced it had no work left, it laid off a fair number of workers who had not accumulated much leave. But it refused to lay off the older, long-serving employees.

Instead, it insisted that they turn up to work even though there was no work to do. Essentially it waited until their EBA had expired, terminated it, and instantly slashed their entitlements to about 25% of what it had originally agreed to pay. This, of course, was perfectly legal — and as the changes in WorkChoices show, it’s something the Government wants to encourage.
This example was an unknown company, Tristar. Do you really think LAMEA380, that Qantas will be happy to terminate all of our EBA agreement, allow us to go to work every day for a year, which everyone would know full well they would be looking to make everyone redundant at the end of the 12 month preservation period and do the dirty on the workforce of the most recogniseable Australian brand in the world ?

Do you really think Qantas would want that sort of publicity ? They don't have Packer on the board anymore so the negative publicity shield on his media empire is effectively gone... so I ask you;

Seriously... what crap are you trying to spread.

It is in Qantas's interest to keep us on an EBA, if we all went to AWA's like Virgin Blue engineers working for VirginTech or Jetcare(Patrick's) we would all get pay rises far in excess of 5% pa. I personally wouldn't mind 100k for 1 type license, with B1/B2 training and type training for all when required... not for those who bend over so far they can kiss their own arse

sickofqf

7th Apr 2008, 02:27

Yoshi said
"Not sure if Boeing manager was 'spying' or what but it can't have been for our benefit!!!!"

I'd like to think he was seeing exactly what a night in base is all about. After all, he is the one who canned night shift at the SIT !!

blubak

7th Apr 2008, 04:03

If QF were even thinking about terminating the eba,why would they have gone to the trouble of again issuing a letter telling us this time that they will be leaving the new eba on the table for the time being??
Its very obvious now that to be a qf manager u have to have no sense of respect for anyone that works for u,u think nothing of your workers opinions,and very sadly cant understand that your workers do have a life outside of qf unlike urself.

chksatis

7th Apr 2008, 05:34

A question to the Fed Sec and everyone elses opinion out there....

With all this EBA stuff going on and being a big issue, i think the Sydney Precinct issue seems to have fallen away from the Union's attention.

There seems to be alot of talking around moving guys around and having specific manufacturer based crews, I.E Boeing guys looking after Boeing aircraft sydney ops and Airbus guys looking after Airbus sydney ops, well what is the unions opinion on all of this?

Shouldn't the unions view on this be keep the line guys as line guys and the base guys as base guys that way everyone has there own speciality and keeps everyone protected in there own areas and keeps everyone in a job, let alone other industrial issues such as roster changes, people moving areas that dont want to move.

Just a though.

ALAEA Fed Sec

7th Apr 2008, 06:29

The Sydney precinct thing is something that's on our radar. We know the changes are being kept back at the moment subject to the EBA being signed off. Of course managers have moved around and the 330 crews have been set up for some time.

We do have an opinion on it. There is a legal position on it. At this time I won't be commenting on either as they could become mixed up and false assumptions made.

cheers

upsidefront

7th Apr 2008, 09:22

Just read the e-mail from the commission. I am on a personal O/T ban as of now. Hope many others join me. Nothing official of course :ok:

The Mr Fixit

7th Apr 2008, 10:45

The Big Issues

Man Power and Licence Coverage

(LAMEs on the Skilled shortage list, Licenced Engineers one of five professions automatically granted a greencard in USA, Minimum rates climbing at all other employers except QANTAS and Regional airlines offering 100k for licenced LAMEs)

Management will attempt band aid fixes such as

SYDNEY PRECINCT
NO MAN TRANSIT
MERGERS
SHUTDOWN OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE

Sign off on this EBA and all of the above will be implemented within months if not weeks

It is apparent that THIS IS QANTAS ENGINEERING's TEN YEAR PLAN

Open your ears and open your eyes, this time around it appears OUR union, the ALAEA is taking the fight to QF, Let's get right behind them and safeguard OUR FUTURE

aveng

7th Apr 2008, 13:38

What is the latest from the commission? Is PIA on?

lame1

7th Apr 2008, 16:11

I bet this news item had the qf eba team choking
check out the link
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=248153&cl=7295987&ch=248154&src=y7news

LAMEA380

7th Apr 2008, 19:25

lame 1

Thanks for the link, i interpreted SP, (in the middle of EBA negotiation) saying that QF is not spending enough on ALAEA Members wages therefore things are not getting fixed, am sure thats how the general public will interpret things.

I am not sure why you would link LAME wages with work quality, this certainly opens the door to offshoring maintenance work, but i could be wrong.

wingers

7th Apr 2008, 20:40

I also would like to know what is the present situation , what happened at the commission. There are all sorts of rumours going on that it was rejected, that the submission was flawed, please advise. If this is correct this is very worrying, you advised earlier that you have a high powered team on this , what is the situation?

What exactly happened in the comission and where do things stand.

Sunfish

7th Apr 2008, 21:18

Hmmmm, the trolls are out early this morning. I thought the Channel 7 report was about as good as you can get in communicating a difficult to grasp issue to the public, shame about the content though.

The Qantas safety record can't last anyway. One of these days management will discover it has cut a little too deep - when the holes in the swiss cheese line up.

And when they do start lining up, probability theory tells us they will line up on multiple locations at multiple times, and it will take at least ten years of work to reverse the situation.

So keep cutting Qantas management, but you had better hope that you are safely retired when the damage you have done finally becomes apparent.

Talkwrench

7th Apr 2008, 23:10

Morning all. 1. LAMEA380, given your silence on the issue of what your position is in all this I will have to assume that you are not even a permanent full time LAME employed by Qantas, therefore you are not the most qualified person to opine about the LAME EBA. 2. Soldier of Fortune, I respectfully disagree with your previous comment and I say the PIA vote will get up even if 2 day stoppages are a part of it. Surely you, being an alleged ‘Soldier of Fortune’ know about the plethora of employment opportunities outside of QF. The thing that secures our future (be it with QF or not) is that little red book that CASA gives us that says we can certify for maintenance. 3. Wingers, you should have a read of the AIRC transcript of proceedings re: the PIA ballot application. The ALAEA has sent it to all members (are you a member?). The transcript tells you exactly what went down in the commission, without any spin or personal interpretation applied to it.

The Mr Fixit

8th Apr 2008, 01:04

A380 Lame

"Thanks for the link, i interpreted SP, (in the middle of EBA negotiation) saying that QF is not spending enough on ALAEA Members wages therefore things are not getting fixed, am sure thats how the general public will interpret things."

You interpreted that out of "Qantas has not invested enough in their engineering business and this unfortunately may lead to tragic circumstances"

YOU ARE A TOOL and A LIAR

BEGONE MANAGEMENT TROLL OR SHOULD I SAY AP

Worst of all you are neither a A380 LAME or a Member of the ALAEA

PS have you forgotten your SOBAST password ?

The Mr Fixit

8th Apr 2008, 01:17

Wingers whilst I do not agree with your sentiment at least your enquires have been genuine in your attempt to understand the situation.
Do not let negative comment about you posts stop you from asking questions, I've spoken personally to several of the exec when they passed through for the EBA roadshows and they all sing from the same sheet "We are here for the members and we are always willing to discuss our motives and methods with our members"

For the record I haven't always agreed with their strategy but there is no doubting their sincerity and conviction

United We Stand

lordofthewings

8th Apr 2008, 03:51

ALAEA Fed Sec

8th Apr 2008, 04:48

To Fed Sec
I also would like to know what is the present situation , what happened at the commission. There are all sorts of rumours going on that it was rejected, that the submission was flawed, please advise. If this is correct this is very worrying, you advised earlier that you have a high powered team on this , what is the situation?

What exactly happened in the comission and where do things stand.

Always happy to answer reasonable questions. Not prepared to be baited into debate about rumours. The full transcript from the AIRC hearing on Friday has been emailed to all ALAEA members. If you are one, you will be able to read it and draw your own conclusions.

blubak

8th Apr 2008, 05:35

is the meeting between assoc and qf still on for tomorrow?.has there been any progress or dialogue-poitive or negative? transcript of airc hearing was very interesting,seems like qf always have trouble understanding plain english!!

Bolty McBolt

8th Apr 2008, 08:08

Plenty of jobs out there, but most will have to move o/s. And how many of you really want to do that...The other thing is move into GA or the regionals, but funny enough they wont have you cos you dont have the quals..
What to do!!!!

While this is a good point its not really pertinent to us.
GA is good gig but you need to be experienced to be accurate and quick to demand decent remuneration as costly mistakes in troubleshooting will not be tolerated by GA MRO or operators/owners but if you are willing to forgo city life and go regional there is work for those whom are willing to start over.

To move O/S
Yes there are still plenty of Jobs in ME Asia (and perhaps NZ) as they cannot fill the positions vacant for LAE/LAME but you have to leave home and that is a big step especially when you have a family in tow....

So where does it leave us the QF LAME if he/she wants to stay in the game...

I believe we are in the same position now as we have always been.
QF TA and TN once trained their own engineers and there was very little fence jumping. Supply and demand was mostly met through each airlines apprentice scheme. Now there is only QF and Jet* whom are training engineers. QF can't fill positions vacant for trainee/apprenticeships and Jet* have a reasonable number in Newcastle but fortunately for us it takes about10 years to bring a LAME up to speed.
So if QF gets rid of us where will it get its replacements from?

QF is stuck with us and we are stuck with them. Previous management understood this status quo so the issue was never pursued. MH and his bunch of yes men with no operational experience have failed to distinguish between a fitter on the monorail and a LAME
The Airline industry in OZ has been expanding at an exponential rate which may slow now with the financial markets adjusting but lets look at how things stand.

Virgin are building its domestic fleet with now 2 types on the books and expanding into an international fleet of 777s this will require LAMES and are advertising for domestic ops.

Jet* are also expanding and want to self handle/maintain the 787 this will require more LAMES.. Where from?

Tiger A320 ..JHAS have been advertising constantly so there can’t be to many people left whom want to work for JHAS and their T & Cs. Romulus may disagree but rumour has it, all is not so rosy. Tiger are looking to expand !! plus rumour of A330 joining their fleet maybe an international ops. Time will tell

Lion Air is planning to join the ranks of commercial jets in OZ which will require even more staff plus the regionals like Qantas link with expanding fleets.

And lets not forget QANTAS They are currently Boeing largest order holder with huge numbers of 737 NG and 787 on order while planning to use the B744 til 2020 + which will keep the current numbers of LAMEs with their hands full for years to come.
QF have set up a maintenance program for the A380 from the glossy brochure supplied by Airbus and are using the absolute minimum people to maintain them. From what I have seen the A380 at SQ uses so much manpower we are in for a shock. Perhaps Sobast may get a reaming for the QF setup when supply chain finally concedes that the big bus requires more manpower than allocated.. Somebody will be held accountable, perhaps an operations manager ??

SOF a written commitment from mangament to keep the remaining HM HERE in AUS

Did you fail to see the press release from GD about joint HM in KL. And this was just days after GD meeting with SP where he gave his assurance to the opposite. WTF !

Soldier of fortune thinks QF can source LAMEs from countries like

india
bangladesh
Philippines
china-hongkong
new zealand
south africa

etc etc
+ the scabs

India – Has its own problems with LAME shortages with a massive expansion of its airline industry with those whom defect seem to prefer the Gulf states due to the rates of pay.

Bangladesh :- Obviously a country which sports a well known and internationally respected “worlds best practice” aviation industry ??

Philippines: ? ? I don't know
China-Hong Kong :- perhaps but many of the guys recruited years ago from Hong Kong have since returned home
New Zealand: - Trying to re-employ the guys they laid off
South Africa :- Maybe but I am sure many of the guys whom were recruited years ago have told their SAA mates about the trials and tribulations of joining QF, the morale etc. I would guarantee most would not paint a pretty picture of life in QF.
( This is another of MH and cronies failings, They don’t understand how small the industry is and with the demise of Ansett there is probable only 2 or 3 degrees of separation between all LAME in OZ perhaps the world)

The Scabs Well Scabs are scabs, Short term fix for a long term problem..:yuk:

SOF if you had said AME i would have agreed..

Lets stick to what we know, follow the lead of our union executive ignore the disinformation from MH and DC and the trolls on this site,
We will get the result we want. It has taken time and may take more with some pain but it is time to lay the foundations for our future, future negotiations and future LAMEs

Bolty :ok:

PS If i have left anyone out whom is training Aircraft engineers apprentice or LAMEs will gladly be corrected. Virgin? etc

YOSHI

8th Apr 2008, 11:51

Well said, Bolty.

I wonder how many LAMEs there are in Aus?

I seem to remember that recently CASA were trying to get lapsed LAMEs to contact them in an attempt to boost the numbers in Aus, seems there are not enough LAMEs about!

Another interesting, and worrying, statistic is the average age of a LAME here seems to be rising by one year, every year!

This being the case, where will the Aus airlines get it's work force from in the future?

As Bolty said,' I am sure many of the guys whom were recruited years ago have told their SAA mates about the trials and tribulations of joining QF, the morale etc. I would guarantee most would not paint a pretty picture of life in QF.'

This statment could be applied accross the world!

As for the transcript from the AIRC Hearing, it is obvious that QF are still holding fast on their bluff, but even the Commissioner can see through it.

QF will get what they deserve, and so will we if we stand together........

To the Exec. Well done, keep up the good work.

JaseAVV

8th Apr 2008, 17:26

I must disagree with you on this point though:

"GA is good gig"

I spent 2 years in GA in between working on heavies and it was the most miserable, stressful and thankless 2 years of my life.

The pay is terrible (I was earning more as a 4th year apprentice on heavies). Overtime with 5 mins notice and not optional. All (including experienced LAMEs) spoken to very poorly on a daily basis.

Most young AME/LAMEs I met who worked in GA were working on ways to get out, some on their doctors advice!

I'll stack shelves at K-mart before I return to General Aviation.

Johnny V

9th Apr 2008, 09:59

You all will be crying soon, we've pulled your agreement and you will now all get less than the previous offer.

Time to Pay is it Mr Fixit, yes time for you to pay for your stupidity you LAMES are weak as water and you will now accept anything we offer no one will vote for PIA now.

A fool and his money is soon parted, losers

JETTRONIC

9th Apr 2008, 13:11

Jonny V you don't know :mad:

Little birdie told me today that _______ will never go above 3%. They aint no way there going to open the floodgates. Yet there seems to be a small flicker of light. Looks like there going to come to the table with a big chunk of the good stuff. There afraid, they got a wiff of something in the wind today and there starting to :mad: them selves.

We stand united brother but I will kick you hard if you fall out of line.:cool:

blubak

9th Apr 2008, 23:12

Seems like the threats have started again!
Even if we do get less hopefully the offer will be fair dinkum this time not like the last 1 saying such things as AN INCREASE IN SUPER.Pity the words FOR SOME werent put there.
Maybe the next letter put out should be checked for accuracy before being distributed-NO POINT IN TRYING TO HIDE VITAL INFORMATION!
Even though a lot of LAMES are stupid(apparently) there is always at least 1 on the ball and thats all thats needed to find the flaws.

wingers

10th Apr 2008, 00:01

This looks like its going to degenerate into a complete mess. Am fed up and just want this sorted, i am not alone and i impore the membership and Fed Sec to tread carefully, it is easy to go to war, but i think that is exactly what the company wants, that is the worry, so ask yourselves why?

You can be sure that they have the staying power resolve and will not create a precedent.

Good luck to all, we are going to need it.

Sunfish

10th Apr 2008, 00:09

Wingers selling fear.

Johnny V waiting for someone to lose their temper and threaten something illegal.

Soldier of fortune trying to create bad feeling with the Exec.

I think QF must be getting desperate, come on boys, get some new trolls.

wingers

10th Apr 2008, 00:40

Sunfish,

You dont have a stake in this? or do you? you could be the real troll, you are calling for PIA, easy to do from the sidelines.

My concerns are real, you are the one beating the drums of war yet you you have nothing to gain or lose, to me that is a the definition of a troll.

Sunfish

10th Apr 2008, 00:41

Wingers, why are you on the net and not working on an aircraft at this time of day?

Simple perusal of all your posts suggests that your only purpose in posting is to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt, in an obvious effort to ensure that the ALAEA caves in and accepts QF's offer.

Johnny V is trying a different tack. He is trying to goad someone into losing their temper and threatening to do something that is illegal - which QF can then seize on as evidence of bad faith.

Then there are others trying to sow discord between various sections of QF's LAME workforce as well as between the membership and the executive.

I'm just cheering for the underdog from the sidelines. The ALAEA seems to be doing very well so far..

wingers

10th Apr 2008, 01:05

Sunfish, the problem with you is that you confuse your MBA theories with real life, i am putting a balance on things, it seems to me that if i try to put a balance on things that are real you automatically assume fear mongering etc. i think if you check your MBA theories you will find that voicing my concerns and my approach is valid and more often than not results in good outcomes for all.

blubak

10th Apr 2008, 01:20

Prob most lames are fed up by now.We are only after a fair & reasonable deal-no massive pay increase,no massive increase in conditions,in fact NO MASSIVE INCREASE IN ANYTHING JUST SOMETHING FAIR FOR ALL.
Lets make it very clear that we would all like the same benefits from this eba,if its a 1% super increase-then make it a 1% increase for everyone,we are all covered by the agreement so we should all benefit equally.

YOSHI

10th Apr 2008, 01:29

Refering back to my last post, 'where will the Aus airlines get it's work force from in the future?'

More AMEs leaving Base this month, these are the 'future' workforce of QF, and they just keep on leaving.

That leaves the ALAEA LAMEs to ensure that QF has serviceable aircraft to fly, and managment know this. QF are just doing their best to bluff us, in a vane attempt,into accepting far less than we are worth, and less than they are prepared to pay!!

In my opinion, any LAME who disagrees with the move to PIA may as well offer their services to QF for nothing!!!

P.S. keep up the good work Johnny Viagra.:mad:

Sunfish

10th Apr 2008, 01:37

Wingers, mate It's not MBA theories, it's cold hard experience at the coal face. The only "new" bit is following these discussions on the internet and contributing what little I can.

Not that your executive needs any help from me, they appear to be doing an excellent (and perhaps thankless) job of representing you.

NAS1801

10th Apr 2008, 04:39

Don't worry guys, apparently, there is a solution to the problem! Qantas can sack all of it's existing workforce under the drugs and alcohol policy. apparently, we are all drug addicts???....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4036832&postcount=50

ALAEA Fed Sec

10th Apr 2008, 05:46

Don't you guys just love it when you type a nice big response and hit submit to find out that it has timed out?

AVV lunchtime meetings. ASAP, bit busy atm.

My opinion on 3% plus extras. Sounds fair to me but members have said no because some seem to benefit more from the extras more than others. It's time QF ended their 3% wage policy. We have done studies on a large number of union outcomed EBAs in past year and 99.4% of them are greater than 3%. Qantas are in the bottom 1% for their headline wage outcomes and remember all the other Agreements also have extras thrown in also.

blubak

10th Apr 2008, 05:52

Fedsec
Any talkies at the moment or no-one interested??

ALAEA Fed Sec

10th Apr 2008, 06:03

Had a chat yesterday, offered to meet tomorrow but don't think they are interested.

AIRC hearing on new ballot at 1000 AM Monday.

Anulus Filler

10th Apr 2008, 06:30

Fed Sec

Don't you guys just love it when you type a nice big response and hit submit to find out that it has timed out?

Happened to me several times and really sent the sh!ts up me. Now its right click and copy the content before I send anything...

The_King

10th Apr 2008, 06:41

ALAEA Fed SecDon't you guys just love it when you type a nice big response and hit submit to find out that it has timed out?

Mate, I know. I do my typing in MS Word then copy and paste.

BTW, Keep up the good work.

wingers

10th Apr 2008, 08:57

As our leader you have lost me for good.

"My opinion on 3% plus extras. Sounds fair to me but members have said no because some seem to benefit more from the extras more than others. "

If you believe the above you have either

1. Not explained yourself clearly to the membership or not wished to do so, or you do not have the communication skills to do so

2. Hedged your bets to maintain poplularity with all

3. Couldnt care less, as you are seeing other political opportunities on the horizon.

4. All of the above

How do you deduce that members have said NO, have i missed the vote?

A true leader who belives in something , and openly says it is fair! goes to bat for what he belives in.

I am afraid your above open comment has just SUNK US!!!!!!!!!!!!

Furthernmore please remember that you are representing an organisation with collective member wages worth multimillions, so please spare me the open timed out typing problems etc, it really makes us all look like fools. I would type out a response on word doc, then consider the post carefully, then cut and paste, so please spare me the embarassment.

Sunfish

10th Apr 2008, 09:41

Wingers, true to form........

another superlame

10th Apr 2008, 10:17

What a farce the whole situation is. If the asscociation and its members don't align themselves and fight for a common good then you will all be bluffed again by the company.
They have had too long to get this right,PIA might not be for everyone but a couple of days of serious delays and backlog might wake them up.
They haven't experienced chaos on a grand scale for such a long time I doubt that they would cope for too long.
The last 3 months has allowed QF to build its strike breaking army,just because there has been no talk of it doesn't mean it is all forgotten.

It is time for everyone to stop talking crap and start acting. There is no more good faith it is time to fight hard and be prepared to deal with a little pain.

By the way have the A380 princesses backed up the majority or did thry sign there own contracts as it is rumoured.

NAS1801

10th Apr 2008, 10:18

So Wingers.... you gonna put your hand up for the Fed Sec job next time round?

wingers

10th Apr 2008, 10:27

NAS

I might well do so, at least i willnot have problems getting A timed response on pprune....better still i might employ a strategic view when framing my responses...better still..... i would think before typing a response that says .... I AGREE WITH THE COMPANY , THEY HAVE OFFERED A FAIR DEAL

Redstone

10th Apr 2008, 11:31

Wingers, you are part of the problem, therefore you do not deserve to benefit from the solution. Please do us all a favour and resign your mebership.... oh thats right, you aren't a member in the first place.

mister hilter

10th Apr 2008, 11:36

Wingers, are you so fickle? ALAEA Fed Sec you can type in MS word and transport the document.
If you think these guys have ‘negotiated’ for 18 months on our/your behalf just to walk away then you are sadly mistaken. Wingers, if you want to vote against then you will get your chance, as will everyone.
Are you up for the battle?
From my point of view:
QF does not want planes on the deck.
QF has but a few management LAMEs who they will make sign for a/c.
QF has a few scabs (maybe 40). Can they do the job of 1600?
Do you, Wingers, still doubt the cause.
Record profits & record management bonuses. But screw us into the ground. Time to stand up and be counted

YOSHI

10th Apr 2008, 11:59

Well said mister hilter.

We have the strength.

It's time to flex it.

If anyone thinks QF can keep the fleet flying without the 1600 LAMEs, they have rocks in their head.

The feedback meetings I attended all showed a negative opinion of the QF offer, even by those that got close to the 5% from it!

N.E.R.D.

10th Apr 2008, 12:05

:=
Gents,
Stand up and be a part of the solution. If the executive are not representing what you believe is a majority opinion of the membership, present what you think to them by way of phone call/fax/email and be a part of making the EBA process.
The "Association" is only as strong as its membership, don't slag off the executive, get your hands dirty and make the outcome one you have played a part to create.
Talk to you crew members, find out their opinion on the different aspects and clauses in the EBA that will impact their support and get a consensus of the way forward.
If hollow words on this forum are all you can manage, then the EBA you get will be one of your own making. :ugh::ugh:

Talkwrench

10th Apr 2008, 14:22

Wingers, you will be relieved to know that democracy is alive and well in this country. Many less fortunate nations cannot make the same claim. Just let the democratic process play out. If you are confident that the exec have mistaken the mood of the membership, you will also be confident that the PIA ballot will go down too. If that’s the case, it’s game over, the membership have spoken and let’s sign up a deal. Too easy.

grouter

10th Apr 2008, 18:34

Can everyone survive a 2 day stoppage? That will convince Qantas that we are serious, and go a long way to forwarding our claim.

Johnny V

10th Apr 2008, 19:49

QF notices on the EBA said that a meeting was taking place on Wednesday

I'm told that an offer was put to us from the alaea, however it exceeded the 3% and they were told in no uncertain terms where to go

I'll give those twits at bexley one thing they don't give up trying to serve up a new bullsh!t deal

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS ITS 3% OR NOTHING, all the other weak as water unions have accepted it so should the alaea, FAAA sold out the new comers, Short Haul pilots settled for a bonus system (ha ha), ASU a flat 3% + maternity leave.

Get with the program and join the ranks of losers, we don't make billion dollar profits by rewarding the lazy

By the way Wingers you've got a good Qantas head on your shoulders

ALAEA Fed Sec

10th Apr 2008, 20:58

Wingers I think I have given you a fair run and answered all your questions but there seems to be one fundamental aspect of my job tat you misunderstand. I represent the views of 3000 ALAEA members in this country. If I think a deal is ok, it is not my job to go on an endless sales trip around the country and run ballot after ballot until members finally realise that we aren't going to fight for more and vote it in.

We went on one tour of the country. Recommended an in-principle agreement, had ballots in all cities, counted the votes, found that it would be rejeced in all places and are now doing what our members have asked. Thats what running a union is about.

blubak

10th Apr 2008, 23:16

Well said fedsec,
good update also regarding the dialogue continuing between the assoc and company.interesting point about a lack of trust between parties.Hopefully both parties can get over this and move forward.

Clipped

11th Apr 2008, 01:34

A true leader who belives in something , and openly says it is fair! goes to bat for what he belives in

OMG ... Cox are you listening?

blubak

11th Apr 2008, 02:45

Hey johnny V,
U forgot to mention the ASU got 1% super increase for EVERYONE!

section 41

11th Apr 2008, 09:28

All LAMES, have a think about the following definitions for a "just War"

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/justwar.html

Make no mistake following the statement from Qantas today relating to the last two ALAEA communications the company will take this to the wire!

Just Cause

The first condition that must be satisfied before war can legitimately be declared is that there must be just cause for the war. It is wrong to wage war without sufficient reason.
Sufficient reason certainly includes self-defence against an act of aggression, but what else might provide just cause for a war is difficult to discern. Defence of others against an aggressor nation may well be sufficient justification for war. It is less clear whether pre-emptive strikes against a nation that may or may not pose a threat meet this condition.

Are our claims just? We have exercised or had wage restraint imposed on us since EBA 3 when our then exective rolled out "this is the best deal you will get.
TICK!

Proper Authority

The second condition is that war must be declared by a proper authority, a representative of a nation. Neither you nor I can declare war; that is a matter for governments. There are, however, circumstances where it is unclear whether a government represents its people. A dictator King, who rules by fear, or a democratically elected government acting against the wishes of the electorate, arguable do not represent those whom they govern. Whether they can justly declare war is therefore questionable.

Action by an individual could not be constituted as proper authority, however action following a majority vote is proper.

TICK

Right Intention

If a war is to be just then the third condition that must be satisfied is that it must be waged with the right intentions. If a nation has just cause to declare a war, but its real reason for doing so is simply to further its own interests or to inflict suffering upon a hated enemy, then the war is not just. Traditionally, it has been held that the right intention must be a desire for peace.

Is the intention to damage our employer, NO the desire for a win/win outcome is and must be the final end game.

TICK

Probability of Success

A fourth condition for a just war is that there must be some likelihood of success. There is no justice, it is held, in a government resisting a superior power only for its people to be utterly crushed. For a war to be just, the chances of it achieving its aims must be significant.

How strong is our position? If all members stick together and are prepared to make a sacrifice (which will be required) then sucess is likely.

TICK

Proportionality

The last of the conditions of traditional just war theory is proportionality. This condition is violated if the bad effects of waging a war are likely to outweigh the good that it achieves.

Not so sure about this last condition. How long will it take for the extra point or 1% (less likely) to outweigh the loss of earnings required to take action. I guess this depends on how the vote goes strong acceptance >70% would put us in a strong position.

Bring on the vote and lets see if Qantas are dealing with an overly militant Union exectutive (as they assert) or a groundswell of support for the first exectutive in many years to stand up.

Take five

11th Apr 2008, 10:25

To our union officials. Keep up the good work and don’t let them grind you down.
We are behind you.

PIA is being b*stardised at every turn, I am sure the C has just enshrined his travel prospects for the foreseeable future by knocking back the latest PIA.
Does he really believe that a LAME doesn’t know what is meant by ESCALATION.
I hope the next C is not in the company’s pocket.
We’ll find out on Monday.
And by the way the wording is 2 day STOPPAGES .

Don't forget that if there are any sweeteners in the next deal with grades, that all the new aircraft and training are payments, not grading points so that you will end up reaching quota levels that you are stuck in with no advancement with points.

It is easy to throw the future away. Just ask the guys who are working 0630 starts for no penalties because our members wanted a quick $15.
Think of the future and the people which Qantas will definitely need if they are to remain in business.

Isn’t it funny how GD has just announced all those cabin crew training positions after they accepted that backward EBA deal that will just see churn in their profession as they get worn out and thrown away.

Engineering is a little different because of the massive training required with about a ten year lag, but management don’t seem to be able to get their heads around this fact.

The cougar

11th Apr 2008, 12:25

Mr Fed Sec,
How come we pulled out of the overtime bans just before it was about to begin, when we had momentum and everyone was ready. Now the steam has run out and most people just want it over.
For those who think ,where is the company going to get LAME's from, think again! The first gang of breakers have just received their bonus. So for 6 months of doing nothing they have pocketed $127,000.00. How many do you think are going to sign up for the next round? They are knocking down the door of RD.
And for those of you who are astute enough, count back 6 months. Our PIA wasn't even at the commision. So the company had to have the forsight to see this coming or they had inside information! Unfortunately the first instance is hard to believe.

Talkwrench

11th Apr 2008, 14:11

The cougar: So what is your point? Do you want PIA or not? Or did you previously want PIA and now you don't?

NAS1801

11th Apr 2008, 14:20

Where are all these FUD spreaders coming from? I haven't come across many members in my workplace who don't supposrt PIA. Let the majority decide.

rudderless1

11th Apr 2008, 21:31

A bit of solidarity and the support of a representative body (the ALAEA) and a fair outcome was achieved in Perth for the extended hours roster.
Had it not, all workers on the domestic 12hr roster would have been 7% worse off (equivalent to more than 7 twelve hour days ot worse off in cash) and down a further 11 rostered days off per year.(less days available to do ot)
Add that up to 18days per year before you start to negotiate a pay rise!
Sc@bs who do OT, how many days do you get per year at the companies offering? When it is available.
How many days do you want to trade off with your family.
Dumb, stupid and ignorant!

Too dumb not to back off for a fair deal, if your struggling now, where would you be if the above was in place?:ouch::ugh:

employes perspective

11th Apr 2008, 22:16

one question WHY are Lame's struggling to the point that they need to do all this OT,this profession was once very well paid for all the study and odd hours that were worked ,sorry it is still well paid just not at Qantas :{

PS i also forgot the responsibility of all those lives that are in your hands,seems this profession is not worth a pinch of sh!t at Qantas any more,perhaps you guys that need to do all this OT should transfer over to the baggage handling area,or cleaning :ok:

lordofthewings

11th Apr 2008, 22:23

Its not well paid anywhere..Got a mate whos a car sales man, has earnt 130k the last 10yrs, bros better half finance broker, earns more again.
Have a look outside the window, wonder how people are driving nice cars, living in nice houses, every weekend off to spend with family and friends, better social life, fu.k it sounds depressing, because it is.
Time for a career change, might go sell cars.

The Mr Fixit

12th Apr 2008, 00:01

Cementhead, along with your comments your name says it all. By the way you're not from SDT are you, J ? :yuk:

If you think this is only about money your are a fool

It's about the future, if you want to be a part of it and if you think it's a worthwhile profession to preserve for future generations :ok:

Personally I'm making a stand, PIA I fully support not to make money but to make a future

Wingers, are you an electrician you seem to flip flop alot :E

LAMEA380

12th Apr 2008, 00:35

To The Cougar

Yes agree with you,

By the way, to anyone else that wants the next round of 100K

the web link is below

http://www.resumedomain.com/browse_jobs.asp

The cougar

12th Apr 2008, 00:52

Is it rudderless or clueless? If I was a scab would I be telling you this you fool!Are the OT bans on now, I didn't see the union letter! FOOL!
Bring on the OT bans and our strike breaking brothers will pick up the slack.We need to go all out if the PIA starts by starting with 8 hour roster, OT bans are nothing. All the breakers are already underway with all the 214 stuff, towing, confined space the lot.
When the union did the rounds to find out the general feeling about the EBA the people who were for it would not say they were due to the brow beating they would have gotten from the noisey few. If it goes to vote now it would romp in.

Talkwrench

12th Apr 2008, 03:12

Hey The Cougar, re: the last paragraph in your post #730. I agree that standing up in a meeting of your peers to put a minority view requires you to have courage in your convictions. This can be simply too difficult for some people to do. It is unfortunate for them that they can’t put their case in front of everyone. However, if they feel sufficiently strong in their view, they can quite easily contact an executive member and put their opinion privately, one on one. Or even write a letter to the executive. If they can’t bring themselves to do that, you have to then question if they really care about their opinion being heard or not. I guess the ultimate form of expressing your view is the secret ballot that we will be having for PIA. That will tell the story of what the majority think.

Talkwrench

12th Apr 2008, 03:34

Hey Soldier Of Fortune, I must agree with the crux of your message in post #728. The way I see it, as long as there is no PIA officially on, no one should have any problems with their peers doing overtime, travelling for aircraft etc etc. In fact, I could only recommend scooping up a bit of OT and saving it for the possible rainy days ahead. If push comes to shove, it will be advisable to have some cash put aside. With that said though, if and when the PIA starts, I would hope that everyone follows and fully supports the official directions of the exec. In my opinion, that will be the best way to minimise the duration of the PIA, if that is your concern. Just my opinion…

rudderless1

12th Apr 2008, 04:24

Bring on the OT bans and our strike breaking brothers will pick up the slack.
Do you think sc@bs will be set to work alongside their QF mates?:hmm:
I am sorry for my convictions but sometimes people must show a bit of self enterprise. I believe this could have already been over without any PIA!

With no solidarity and no conviction you will effectively lose $18 000 or more before you start. Work it out. Whose going to lead if you are always waiting for someone else or if you're always saying someone else will do it if I don't. Pressure applied by some has got us this far, time to help your future.
Action has been lodged, time to back off!

The cougar

12th Apr 2008, 06:34

Talkwrench,
I have contacted the association!
Clueless,
Do you think QF will put the strike breakers next to you at work, wake up, they will be far away. You will not even know the work has been done. Been over to GA at Sydney airport lately? Nice little working space with 2 747 stand off bays, how about Cairns, Darwin, Brisbane or even Avalon. If you think the cost will be to great for the company to bear think again, they have already shelled out $4,000,000 plus already on the 30 odd strike breakers. Not to mention the sydney FART crew that is hitting them now for $9,000,000.Save your self enterprise, do some OT it sounds like you need a night out with Soldier of fortune!

mister hilter

12th Apr 2008, 11:14

Cougar, stay strong.

No one should doubt the resolve of the assn. You are the voice that they will follow. If you have the will for a protracted struggle, they will do as you say

LAMEA380

12th Apr 2008, 12:58

Hey cougar

My bet there are 165 Strike breakers, + do you think all training has been in AUS, what about the 25 guys flown to Prague for training,

The next lot have been gathered to train in Sydney, then there are the 37 who are training in Scotland.

I hear you that a new offer if about to be made .....1.5% to all.

So lets see what happens , 200+ strike breakers will be able to hold of 10 days straight,

You guys do not know what you are in for, i could bespreading FUD, roll the dice and lets see what happens.

One more thing i forgot to ad, did you guys see the silent inspection and the gentlement that where dressed in overals walking around various hangars , or did they fool the lot of you, they did it one by one.

PS the 229 trained to date are all Aust citizens

600ft-lb

12th Apr 2008, 22:07

You fully expect everyone to go out on the grass LAMEA380, Qantas would have far more damage done to them by everyone on an overtime ban. seccondment ban and higher duties ban.

How many senior LAME positions are currently filled by an actor ?
How many DMM positions are currently filled by an actor ?

How many LAME's are off doing special projects ?

How many ports RELY on overtime ?
How many heavy maintenance facilities have overtime on tap ?
How well will these ports work with a scab workforce working alongside them if they're brought in during an overtime ban ?

You could argue that if the entire LAME workforce was brought back to the floor things might work just nicely(although I doubt it), its just that everything else would fall apart ? Or would it just demonstrate the mid level management positions really are just redundant jobs for the boys..

Anulus Filler

13th Apr 2008, 04:08

Tail wheel. Well done to banning the 3 that were out of control in the previous thread. However, I was hoping that the thread was not stopped completely (maybe their comments could have been deleted as well as banning).

Many in the industry found it very informative and 98% of the posts in the prevous thread were informative and provided good debate. It is a shame that is was effectively banned to all. It had provided 42000+ reads and 753 posts.

Looking at the 3 that were banned, 2 of them have low posts and I believe that they had deliberately acted in that manner to shut the thread down. After all, the PIA is gaining momentum amongst the engineers, and it is not in the best interests that QF would want this to continue. What better way than to get rid of this medium of communication.

1746

13th Apr 2008, 04:43

Those three were out of control and obviously must be excluded, thanks! :ok::D

However the topic is alive and extremely important to the industry and over 1600 LAMEs directly, so please keep excluding those who can't keep a sensible and civil thread continuing but don't kill the topic!

tail wheel

13th Apr 2008, 05:41

I restored the old thread by merging with this new thread.

Three users in the old thread are on a one week sabbatical and upon their return are permanently excluded from this thread.

Play nice or this thread will be permanently removed!

:mad:

Tail Wheel

1746

13th Apr 2008, 07:02

Thanks Tailwheel!!!!!:ok::ok::ok::D:D:D

upsidefront

13th Apr 2008, 08:16

Dear Cementhead

As Spannertwister pionted out, we need a base rate increase. Try this for size, if our base rate went up and you still worked ALL of that ot, even you would be better off!

Just think, 5% increase on base, then add night shift loading, then mention that you are on ot, so times 200%, and what do you have?

Let's see, you said $1000 for one shift. So $500 normal pay. $500 + 5% = $525. Now ot makes that $1050 for one shift. Times 20 shifts as you pointed out and you are $1000 better off.

That's a few cold one's :ok:

I know these sums are basic, but remember I don't understand what escalate means so I am very basic :E

rudderless1

13th Apr 2008, 08:49

Thanks Spannertwister,
I was starting to worry people thought the same as QF,
that is all about what your annual income is, not how you get it, for example they disregard
• your qualifications or amount of them
• how much OT
• Nightshift
• weekend work
• how old aircraft are and the amount of maintenance they require
• Your efficiency
Don't forget poor tooling and facility that has effect on your efficiency aswell. Your efficiency is determined by this and then judged by the fools who have not done their job.
This is the stupidity of it all. QF has a vastly varied fleet, under employs and/ or under trains causing you OT and pumps your income, they then argue you earn too much without relating it to why compared to say Jetstar.
Jetstar may have a new fleet, single type and more LAME’s proportional to work required hence no OT required. You may earn $160 000 or more for your toil at QF even if your normal income may be $100 000, you will be deemed to be too expensive to your Jetstar cousin on $110 000, they will argue to pay you less.
“the average LAME at QF costs this all up, the average LAME at Jetstar costs this all up”
OT is hiding poor staffing/manpower (affecting leave), amount of training (affecting skill and real income for all) and poor management. Following on it is also affecting wage negotiation by not highlighting these deficiencies.

:confused::uhoh:

Talkwrench

13th Apr 2008, 10:48

Hi all. Firstly, thanks tailwheel for restarting the thread. Secondly, Does anyone know if it is a requirement of Workchoices (or any other legislation) that QF must have ALAEA endorsement of a proposed agreement before it can go to a vote?

Bumpfoh

13th Apr 2008, 11:10

rudderless1

And that is why I and my fellow work-mates would vote no to the current codswallop of an offer were it put to a vote.

On a personal note I stand to gain nothing other than the less than inflation 3% with no training on the horizon.
However I am looking at the overall deal and how it affects all LAME's no matter what level they are currently on together with any potential newbies (no doubt very limited under the current regime) and to me it is just crap.

So save your propgranda emails DC and come to the party, the latest ALAEA proposal that was rejected by QF was very reasonable for all concerned, otherwise it just might be you having to negotiate a new package for youself elsewhere.:E

Mr Invisible

13th Apr 2008, 21:22

I must agree that this has been a lively thread to peruse over the last 12 months but lately I have not been able to view it due requiring a login so I've bitten the bullet and joined the ranks of posters here.

I consider myself a moderate and actually thought the offer from the company wasn't that bad considering but after taking the time to read the offer fully I was concerned that all of us weren't benefiting from our collective efforts.

I mean we are all in this together aren't we ?

The pay rise should be for one and all, from level 3 to level 13 inclusive no one should miss out after the past EBAs we've voted in have been selective to say the least.

Well that's my opinion anyway

wingers

13th Apr 2008, 21:48

Mr Invisible,

Fair post, i tend to agree, but and a big but, is the fact that the collective do not pay my bills, we have always said stick together but it is pretty had to do when each of us have varied financial positions.

My position is clear i will vote no to PIA because it will not change the companies resolve, it is my opinion that they will not budge , all PIA will do is put a dent in my pay packet.

Sunfish

13th Apr 2008, 22:02

Just remember that there are a few trolls around here spreading Fear Uncertainty and Doubt......FUD.

A simple analysis of when they joined and of what and where they have posted is quite entertaining.

And of course once this entire matter has been resolved one way or another, they will suddenly cease posting.

Mr Invisible

13th Apr 2008, 22:47

Wingers,
Is your attitude All for one and one for himself/herself ?

This does disappoint me mate though I admit it is an attitude we have held in the past as a group.

I have decide to change my mercenary attitude to try and help out the guys getting $58,000 dollars a year in Heavy Maint., is it possible you can too ?

wingers

13th Apr 2008, 23:02

Mr Invisible,

Appreciate your post, and althought it may look mercenary, i really cannot see how i can vote for PIA, forget my personal financial circumstances for a second (i have always maintained that my personal circumstance come first). The fact that we have been told that this is a good deal by our elected officials has eliminated any guilt that i may have felt.

rudderless1

13th Apr 2008, 23:23

Wingers $100 000 for six months suits your way. (remember that wouldn't be there either if we didn't stand up for a better agreement for all) Go for it, don't sit on the fence. Have the integrity to stand by your mindset.

Whilst maintaining your ignorance to others efforts in the past maintaining and fighting for your current conditions, are you enjoying all those benefits?

Why not hand your portion of them back to say charity or the company?

Parasites offer nothing to the host they take from. I bet you will still expect the spoils of the battle though!:yuk:

wingers

13th Apr 2008, 23:37

Rudderless

Lets agree to disagree.

my premise and my vote are based on the fact that the offer wont get a better deal, therfore that negates you view that i will take the spoils of a better offer, the simple fact is the offer is good and it wont get any better, if it takes PIA to prove me right so be it , PIA will not sway the company , it seems to me that they have had the time to put strong contigency plans in place.

They wont set a precedent re increases, this is unpalatable but it is fact, the sooner this is realised and accepted the better, at the end of the day i will stay in the business as long as i need to, then i will leave the business, but until then my position is my position. We are a democracy so i wont be bullied out of my convictions.

Big Unit

13th Apr 2008, 23:53

Wingers. You are a troll. Simple as that. You and Johnny V nice and warm up there on the 3rd floor? How about you come down and help us out on the floor. Your time is up!! How do you possibly think engineering could operate on 250 scabs Australia wide. Even 500 wouldn't be enough. Remember this - MEL's expire!!

Mr Invisible

13th Apr 2008, 23:54

OK Wingers, I concede you won't change your attitude but I have changed mine
I will be voting yes for PIA because I think the ALAEA Exec have done everything reasonable to avoid it but now it is time to make a stand.

Please support the majority Wingers as we have in the past if the men decide for PIA we all should support that action, if not we go back to where we were.

motown man

14th Apr 2008, 00:54

Wingers,

I am looking forward to the day when we will all have to choose which side of the fence we are on. This day has been decades coming.

The trouble for some will be that others will never let you forget.

Better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. :cool:

NAS1801

14th Apr 2008, 01:39

Wingers, let me ask you something and please answer it honestly.

Lets say you were one of the members that stood to gain nothing from the deal. Would you still be so supportive of the deal or would you be inclined to reject it in pursuit of something that would benefit you?

PIOT Bord

14th Apr 2008, 07:06

LAMEA380, Johnny V and Wingers are company stooges who have either been told to stir up trouble, or have taken it upon themselves to attempt to stir up trouble.

They have the same effect as a DC letter or a MH talk - strengthen the resolve of LAMEs to hold out for a fair EBA for all.

Ask 10 LAMEs that you work with regularly - will they support PIA and the ALAEA, or whether they will vote it down. 7 - 8 will respond that they support the action.

Bring on the vote, let everyone have their say, and support the result whatever it is.

Syd eng

14th Apr 2008, 07:34

Just received email from ALAEA, PIA vote now approved by commission.

Bring on the fight.

blubak

14th Apr 2008, 08:57

FAIR is the important word u have used PIOT BORD
We may go along with some getting a level rise when others dont however how any person can even in their wildest dreams call the agreement FAIR when some get a super rise and others dont is beyond belief.
There must be someone on the management negotiating team who has no problem in seeing that this is NOT FAIR and in the big picture the cost of giving everyone a FAIR GO with the super increase im sure could not in any way be called excessive.
The company points out that the asu have accepted the 3% as have others but pls tell us why all of the asu members got an increse in super yet all LAMES are not entitled to it.
Come on qf management-get fair dinkum,treat us fairly and we will accept something which is FAIR.!!!

JETTRONIC

14th Apr 2008, 12:02

Fair is all we ask for, and hopefully a little respect wouldn't go too far either. Most of my family have work at QF for many many years, I can't tell you guy's how much it :mad: them of to see the way they treat us now. I, like the rest of my fellow lame's have always tried to do the best for the airline and the paying passenger. Yet I have been walked and passed over heaps of times and now enough is enough. Time has come to stand up and be counted.

I have faith in our new association and they have my full support.
Let's roll.......:ok:

Millet Fanger

14th Apr 2008, 12:33

Carried out the quick quiz tonight at work. 1 No vote, 1 Mind your own business, 8 Yes votes (Varying degrees of conviction).

Roll on the PIA vote, it will get up.

Carried out another quick quiz - same ten blokes. Will you follow ALAEA's lead re PIA. 9 Yes votes, 1 Mind your own business. The only real debate came with regard to walking out the gate for up to 2 days, that was more like 50:50 split (1 mind your own business).

Mr Qantas

14th Apr 2008, 21:40

$3200 per week? ALready bnked since January. Job satisfaction? That will come when they lock you greedy fools out and I take your spot. Vote yes for your little balot boys I carnt wait:D

upsidefront

14th Apr 2008, 21:51

Looking forward to seeing hit crew 1 and 2 fold because of no ot. Mind you it's only the base people that are on ot for hit crews. Anyway these fantastic ideas (hit crews and ot for crew levels) to get around manpower issues will only highlight our position. Roll on PIA!

motown man

14th Apr 2008, 22:02

The PIA should be a definite message to Geoff that something is wrong with his management team.

Come on Geoff trust the guys who keep your planes in the air.

They are telling you something is wrong on the ground.

Bring on the PIA. We will all see which manager goes. :ugh:

wingers

14th Apr 2008, 22:32

NAS.

In response to your question, you guys seem to be be praising the Executive for doing a good job.

That is what i am doing. The Fed Sec says it is a fair deal, so i will be voting no to PIA.

It is a simple as that, you guys cannot have it boths ways, you contradict yourselves at every turn.

NAS1801

15th Apr 2008, 00:24

Answer the F#ing question wingers!!!

ALAEA Fed Sec

15th Apr 2008, 01:01

That is what i am doing. The Fed Sec says it is a fair deal, so i will be voting no to PIA.

It is a simple as that, you guys cannot have it boths ways, you contradict yourselves at every turn. Today 08:02

The Fed Sec thought the in-principle agreement was a fair deal but it is not about what the Fed Sec thinks, he doesn't even work for Qantas anymore. The Fed Sec works for members who said the in-principle agreement wasn't good enough.

The deal is no longer on the table Wingers because Qantas never put that in-principle agreement in a written form for you to vote on. They added things that were detremental to your future and took out what we understood was given to us.

If you are so keen to follow the thoughts of the Fed Sec consider this. He does not approve or consider the last copy of what Qantas gave us as their version of the EBA reflective of the in-principle agreement and therefore asks you to support PIA to get you and other members what they deserve.

Just to make that clear again. They have given us something in writing but it is not what we agreed to when we signed the Heads of Agreement and therefore cannot go to a vote with our recommendation as we think it is insufficient.

My apologies to those confused about the Fed Sec refering to himself as the third person. He did watch the Seinfeld episode titled "Jimmy" last night.

cheers

Pist n Broke

15th Apr 2008, 08:00

G’Day all,
Long time reader but first post on this forum and for what its worth i would like to put my two cents in.
It seems that as usual most aircraft engineers are thought of as glorified car mechanics, both by the travelling public and management who deem us to be a costly necessity to comply with aviation regs. Those in the senior management revel in the misinformation provide by the toady useless middle managers who are trying to cosy up and climb the corporate ladder.
It’s about time that the engineers stuck together and support their fellow workers LAME’s or AME’s that have supported them throughout their career.
Fed Sec perhaps a nationwide program of education for the public about what we actually do, the responsibilities we hold and the stress’s shift work places on our home life would assist in the plight of the engineers seeking a fair deal, compared to the fat cat senior managers making millions each year.
I am sick and tired of sitting at a function (when I’m not on OT) and after explaining what I do for a living, have never failed to receive a good laugh when I tell them my take home pay. “What is that all” is usually the response.
Hopefully you will all make the right decision to stand and be counted and also help those who are new to the industry and are unable to help themselves.
To the Scabs that may well jump in initially just remember, eventually your tainted money will run out. What to do then? Engineers are like elephants – ‘They never Forget’ or forgive!!
PB
:ok:

Anulus Filler

15th Apr 2008, 13:17

Pist n Broke....

Welcome brother. I absolutely agree with your last post except for one statement.....most aircraft engineers are thought of as glorified car mechanics

I think what you meant to say is that most car mechanics are thought of as glorified aircraft engineers.:O

The_King

15th Apr 2008, 13:18

God, I thought my wife was painful…But compared to “wingers” she’s an absolute pleasure.

Mr Invisible

15th Apr 2008, 22:06

Just sent an email off to the asn telling them how I felt which I have expressed in this forum. I have always been temperate when it comes to EBAs but this time I feel enough is enough the message we got from our councilor visit is that respect is the keypoint missing from the company's offer they do not respect what we have given them (the safest airline in the world bar none and funnily enough the second oldest) and they are not willing to keep it that way.

Driving LAMEs out of the comany by keeping wages low (A mate moved to MEL on $95,000 for day afternoon shift) is I believe a deliberate ploy to run Heavy maintenance into the ground by stealth, we were burnt once Sydney Heavy we cannot let it happen again.

The cougar

16th Apr 2008, 06:04

So the PIA is going to get up? As long as everyone was honest with the Fed sec during the rounds of meetings, that they weren't happy with the EBA.
Get ready for a long and hard fight men, the company was not ready in january when it should have started but the assocation pulled out at the last minute! Rest assured they are more than ready now.

Anulus Filler

16th Apr 2008, 07:52

Cougar...

Get ready for a long and hard fight men, the company was not ready in january when it should have started but the assocation pulled out at the last minute! Rest assured they are more than ready now.

My PIA will start the moment I arrive at work. Strike or no strike it will be on.:ok:

check1-2

16th Apr 2008, 14:02

Bring back the 8 hour shift....mate:D

LAMEA380

16th Apr 2008, 21:14

Comrades, i think you should all be very agressive, PIA all the way.

2 day stoppages O/T bans and the like

2 Days turns into 4 days, turns into six days, turns into 8 days,

Cannot wait to see how agressive you guys will be, the fun has started, please ensure that you all keep following your executive and you all do the right thing by your comrades, make sure that you really test the companies resolve, they could be bluffing, but you will all soon find out.

Bring it on, and please ensure you have some money trucked away for a rainy day or two or three or four.

Remember to dress well outside the gate. On the positive side, you will save money on lunch during lockout if you all pool your resources to ensure that the sausage sizzle is ready.

ALAEA Fed Sec

16th Apr 2008, 23:04

Bring back the 8 hour shift....mate:D

I was actually a bit concerned when I read this simple post. It is similar to a text message I received the day before and an email a week ago. Members I know some of you wish to just revert to an 8 hour roster. We know it would hurt them and could be carried out without even going to a formal AIRC ordered ballot. I also uderstand that some of you are running around the workplace professing the same. Please stop. You are paddling the boat in the opposite direction to your union leadership.

8 hour rosters fits well and truly in a complex set of plans that we have mapped out. It is not the first step. It will be considered, and needs to be kept in reserve in the following scenario.

If Qantas do enough grovelling to the Government and convince them that the national ecomomy is in strife because we have some minor bans on and they cancel our bargaining period. Then we roll out 8 hour shifts. It doesn't require the approval from anyone but us.

Konehead

17th Apr 2008, 00:24

Johnny wanted to have sex with a girl in his office, but she belonged to someone else...
One day, Johnny got so frustrated that he went up to her and said, "I'll give you a $100 if you let me screw you. But the girl said NO.
Johnny said, "I'll be fast. I'll throw the money on the floor, you bend down, and I'll be finished by the time you pick it up. "
She thought for a moment and said that she would have to consult her boyfriend... So she called her boyfriend and told him the story.
Her boyfriend says, "Ask him for $200, pick up the money very fast, he won't even be able to get his pants down."
So she agrees and accepts the proposal. Half an hour goes by, and the boyfriend is waiting for his girlfriend to call.
Finally, after 45 minutes, the boyfriend calls and asks what happened.
She responded, "The bastard used coins!"

Moral of the story:
Always consider a business proposal in its entirety before agreeing to it and getting screwed!

Toolpants

17th Apr 2008, 02:44

God, I thought my wife and “wingers” were painful – But compared to “LAMEA380” , THEY are an absolute pleasure.

Konehead

17th Apr 2008, 03:20

A few interesting quotes from an article entitled “Aviation Maintenance: Maintaining the Edge” by AMc in the April 08 edition of Australian Aviation Magazine.

‘This skilled and motivated but decreasing workforce base (AMEs & LAMEs) is, in a time of practically full employment, showing signs of being unable to keep pace with the demands of a rapidly growing aviation industry.
…new aircraft with new technologies such as composites and ultra-efficient engines will require new skillsets to maintain them… But who is going to maintain all of these new aircraft as they arrive? …the increased demands from all these segments (GA, small to mid-sized airlines, military, flying schools, clubs) are just not being met.’ AMc.

“The main threat facing the aviation industry in Australia today is a lack of qualified licensed aircraft maintenance engineering staff. Heavy pressure is being put on the experienced LAMEs to supervise and sign for work carried out by unlicensed and less experienced staff… And applicants are in a much stronger position for negotiation of conditions of employment – much more so than has ever been seen in the aircraft engineering industry.” KR, engineering manager of Skippers Aviation. (Hello people! Do I have your attention now?)

“The skills shortage is a huge issue for our industry in Australia.” TE, general manager, JHAS.

“The skills shortage of qualified engineers is compounded by a reluctance of people with compatible engineering backgrounds to enter the industry due to perceived lower working conditions than other engineering industries, such as mining and heavy machinery maintenance… the culture of cost minimisation increases an organisation’s reluctance to train engineers in technical skills and aircraft type courses to prevent wages from increasing and also reduces the retention in the industry of engineers that feel they no longer have a career path. Once people experience life away from shift work or discover other shift working industries with higher rates of pay, they are reluctant to return to aviation. There are good opportunities for people with the necessary discipline and quality that an aviation background provides to work in mining, the petrochemical industry, manufacturing, the energy sector, logistics, project planning and plant maintenance.” Unnamed ALAEA representative.

‘But Virgin Blue said the industry itself has to shoulder some of the blame.’ AMc.

“As with all highly skilled trades there is always a need for more trainees and apprentices to meet future demand… The industry failed to train apprentices 10 to 12 years ago, so consequently the industry is now in catch up mode.” ‘…he has found it difficult to attract a “good, experienced airline engineering planning and management capability in the market.” BS, general manager engineering operations, Virgin Blue. (No kidding. QF seems to have the same problem…)

‘Just as is happening with pilots, supply versus demand is impacting an engineering employee’s earning potential in a positive way.’ AMc. (There’s that old ‘supply vs demand’ thing I’ve been crapping on about ad nauseaum in previous posts!)

“The single biggest challenge facing the industry is the shortage of skilled labour… It is a looming problem...” GI, maintenance director, ExecuJet Australia.

“The biggest advantage of in-house engineering is quality, followed by flexibility to perform work outside of the usual routine requirements. When maintenance is performed in-house there is much better access to the support services that are required to acquit aircraft maintenance and inspections and especially non-routine work properly… and staff that are familiar with the organisation’s routines and policy documents. There is also much closer supervision carried out in-house as there is always oversight by the airline’s LAMEs at all stages of the work… There also needs to be factored in the pride that local workers put into their work – they take ownership of the company’s assets, whereas there may not be the same level of care taken with a ‘customer’ aircraft…” Unnamed ALAEA representative.

“Cost saving is the biggest advantage of retaining engineering capabilities in-house. It gives us the availability of staff to carry out the engineering requirements on an immediate basis, as opposed to having to look for available third party maintenance organisations or personnel when required.” KR, engineering manager of Skippers Aviation.

“Our workforce plan has two elements: the up-skilling of our current employees to be multi-licensed, giving them new opportunities and creating a much more stimulating work environment; and developing trainees and apprentices.” TE, general manager, JHAS. (DC & MH, are you listening? That’s a manager who is in touch with the staff and knows what motivates them!)

“The adoption of EASA regulations allows us to multi-skill LAMEs, improving our productivity and their pay.” BS, general manager engineering operations, Virgin Blue. (Hmmm… a direct link between multi-skilling, i.e. training people and improving their productivity. What a novel idea! Pity DC & MH don’t see it that way, except for those among the golden-haired boys of the “Talent Pool”)

I strongly recommend people get themselves a copy of this article and read it in its entirety. I have quoted selectively here. DC is quoted extensively, but it’s the usual “flexibility, efficiency, working smarter, we’ve invested millions into engineering” mantra that we’ve all heard before. The reason I have quoted selectively is to give those nervous nellies among us (Wingers and friends) a perspective of our industry that perhaps they may lack, to highlight the strength of our negotiating position, how QF management is disclocated from reality, the arguments for maintaining engineering in-house and that working for QF is not the best on offer, both in terms of wages & conditions, lifestyle and job satisfaction.

And let's be realistic LAMEA380. It's not even gonna get to two day stoppages! Why? Because the playground bully usually only needs a punch in the nose from his intended victim to cease and desist bad behaviour. We don't need to kick QF in the nuts to get our point across. A two day stoppage will cost us around $1000 after tax ($130,000/yr divided by 180 12 hour days, less around 30% tax paid). It's a burden we can all share relatively equally, considering what is to be gained by this sacrifice. But imagine the harm a two day stoppage will do to QF financially and to it's reputation! QF will not let it happen. As the Fed Sec has stated, there is a plan, there are many steps to take before kickin 'em in the goons, like a punch in the nose, a nipple-cripple, a bitch slap and a wedgy.

Toolpants

17th Apr 2008, 03:58

I have friends currently working contracts at JHAS and Forstaff. They all tell the same story. They are desperate for appropriately licensed LAMES. My friends get flown in from interstate and put up in hotels due to the shortage. They keep getting offered full time positions at the end of the contracts but (as they are all past retirement ages) keep saying no.

It really makes you wonder about the quality and licenses of the so-called scabs…. And really, how many could you really get in today’s environment.

Qf are still trying to bluff and everyone has seen their hand.

Big Unit

17th Apr 2008, 04:00

How about this for a novel idea. When the company reject our 5% demand, we pull this off the negotiating table and make it 6%. Every time they reject our offer, we up it by 1%. Oh, also our accepting the offer would require the falling on their own swords by the 2 arseholes that have destroyed QF engineering morale and conditions. (And if u 2 arseholes think im just a whinger, come down and work a few nightshifts with us).

I am now well and truly fed up. I just want to work and be backed up by 'supply chain' like we were 5 yrs ago. The time has come for change.:mad:.

To be honest, im not even that concerned about the money anyway. It is simply criminal what those 2 have done to us.

Rant Over!

section 41

17th Apr 2008, 04:30

If reading these posts and talking to work colleagues is repesentative of the QF LAME workforce (with the exception of the loser trolls like wingers and LAME380) then I say bring on the vote and the first action.

JETTRONIC

17th Apr 2008, 06:42

ALAEA Fed Sec just a few questions.....

From what I hear there is no way in hell QF is going to break the 3% dead lock, they just don't want to set a precedence and open the flood gates to the rest of our fellow employees. I'm just wondering if there is a way around it rather then trying to go through, what seems to be a very stubborn wall. :ugh:

I guess like most people I'm rather fed up with it all and just want it to be over and done with, but not at the expense of our conditions or rights. I'm ready to fight but why are they being such :mad: :mad:holes. If what they want is a fight then god help them because I've never seen so many of us thinking the same thing. Bring it on.:}

The circle of stupidity continues.....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

The cougar

17th Apr 2008, 10:04

Konehead,
Well said! We all now have to vote for PIA.
The arena is set. GAME ON!

JETTRONIC

18th Apr 2008, 06:05

Missed the meeting, whats the goss.....

employes perspective

18th Apr 2008, 08:33

what lock outs,they will not happen,in 2001 the ame's went on strike for months,without a look out, in fact the company felt it,do you think it would get any better if the engineers that certify the aircraft went on strike,believe it guys and girls the company are sh!tting them selves to the threat that you may walk of the job:D:D:D

Toolpants

18th Apr 2008, 11:32

What happens if you’re already away on sick leave and a lockout happens?
Are you still on sick leave or
Is you sick leave cancelled and you are now locked out?

another superlame

18th Apr 2008, 12:16

EP the AMEs went out for a few hours to a full day at a time. The company wasn't too worried abou tit because all the LAME's picked up the slack with unlimited O/T. And it seems that they would be the same ones doing O/T now. They didn't support their brothers back then and I doubt they will support them right now.
And the company wouldn't be too stressed anyway, they have had another 4 months to sort out their back up plan, and I reckon JHAS would still be on QF calling card to take over the A380.
Part of the reason the A380 went to QE was to do with the EBA, Now that it has fallen apart I wonder if they will use the JHAS contingency to make sure the new flagship isn't delayed by the poor industrial relationship.
Time will tell.

PIOT Bord

18th Apr 2008, 13:30

What's all this F.U.D. about "lockout". PIA is just that - PROTECTED. Half the reason why negotiations have been slow is that the ALAEA have been dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Now we have the blessing of the Commission to carry out a whole range of PROTECTED action to advance our renumeration claims and working conditions. (Not 'escalate' because we don't know what that word means!)

We have the support of the AME's (who have been screwed by the same management), we have the support of the pilots, we haven't got the public offside and the Government hasn't taken sides. The ALAEA exec have guided things fairly well so far. Let's give them the support and muscle they need with a huge YES vote.

What does the company have? A management team that don't know the first thing about aircraft engineering, and is destroying Qantas Engineering. 1% of the LAME's who are s#&k-hole Yes men. 50 scabs, half of which won't even turn up if push comes to shove. Remember, the scabs can't sign for all the maintenance at every base on an on-going basis. If things do turn bad, it won't take much for GD to turn on DC and MH.

Our claims are reasonable, they aren't over the top. If you want this EBA sorted out sooner rather than later, give our exec. something to negotiate with. 80% and above should do the trick.

another superlame

18th Apr 2008, 14:34

I agree PIOT the claims are reasonable but I hope the fight hasn't been left for too long. My thoughts are that the fight should have happened last EBA when things were not so bad.

Short_Circuit

18th Apr 2008, 20:34

EBA proceeding have taken some time now, but it is time well spent. The Exec. will have leaned a lot about how QF do business ie slipping things in & out and misrepresenting their words etc. The resolve of the masses are hardening with every rock QF throws. I would not doubt that we will vote yes to PIA with about 90% this time. 1700 LAMES having problems making schedule, how will a few dozen out of touch scabs do it, NOT....
Go for it guys, it is time to save QE & our wages.

company_spy

19th Apr 2008, 00:27

Management only understand one thing. A few sandwiches short of a picnic you might say. The only way they will feel compelled to negotiate with us in a meaningfull way, without backsliding and twisting words is if we kick them in the nuts. They are nothing more than school yard bullies.

motown man

19th Apr 2008, 07:20

Company Spy. I like your thinking.

"Bring Back the Biff" :ok:

I too am sick of the managment bullies. Whats worse is the Dmms who are our fellow members practice this **** on our members.

I have seen Dmm's hound some really good lame's until they have been forced to leave. After deliberately twisting and manipulating situations they have assassinated individuals. Even after the VR process has finished they have pressed the issue with lames who are good loyal union members by offering the package. If you dont want to be here we will get the package for you. You have one week to decide and give us an answer.

Blackmail or what!!!

Bring on the PIA. Lets see these company trolls exposed.

"Bring Back the Biff"

The cougar

19th Apr 2008, 11:59

If you are on certified sick leave before the lockout happens you are covered.Piot, protected PIA means you can take action without losing your house, lockouts can still happen! But we must remain united in this fight to ensure we have maximum impact. Management under DC are in the direct firing line and even when their heads are on the block they will hit below the belt, otherwise their CV will not look good for their next job.Have a look at MH management history, very ugly! Still unsure as to how he got a job at QF. QDF r##ted, Monorail being demolished, Kraft-your vegemite isn't made here anymore, Engine line Sydney speaks for its self, Base maintenence- the advance stops here. QF flies on its long history, us boys and girls not second class management!

LAMEA380

19th Apr 2008, 12:17

My regular weekly post.

I will try not to post untill after first PIA.......will try, NO PROMISES

But for now..... you guys live in wonderland, you post crap that makes you feel good , you are devoid of reality.

Do you really think the comapny has recruited 200+ people to sit on the sidelines, they are expecting you to get PIA up, they want PIA and it looks like it will be on.

You guys really have no comprehension of what is going on around you,

You need to ask yourselves one question.

Why does the company want PIA?

Bring on PIA and let the cards fall where they may

Pilot Error

19th Apr 2008, 12:26

When did the AME's take industrial action?

Mr Invisible

19th Apr 2008, 14:08

AMEs PIA about 3-4 years ago got a substantial payrise and some much needed solidarity out of it

A380 LAME, by the way you speak you sound like a sour grape, are you one of the JHAS guys that started EASA training with QF only to be dropped like a hot potato or perhaps a self indulgent manager either way your talk is not big on walk

The cards will fall as they may and if the quiet majority that I was once a part of stand up QF and the airline industry will listen to a very loud voice, one of reason, one of honesty and one of solidarity

To all others that post here back you good words up with good deeds it will set an example for those who may falter and most of all stay true.

LAMEA380

19th Apr 2008, 14:32

Mr Invisible

You miss the point.....you cannot win this fight, repeat you cannot win this fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It looks like you will all find out the hard way....

Repeat.....you will not win this fight......

Do you really belive that the ALAEA can beat QF, do you really belive the members can beat QF,

You are a sorry lot of overpaid mechanics on an ego trip, wake up or loose your jobs to overseas operators.

Anulus Filler

19th Apr 2008, 16:58

LAME A380 (king of trolls)

You miss the point.....you cannot win this fight, repeat you cannot win this fight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It looks like you will all find out the hard way....

Repeat.....you will not win this fight......

I wouldn't be so sure. This may involve a lot of blood noses on both sides, but don't underestimate our determination. (PERTH 8hr roster exercise being a case in point). This will be expensive for both sides, not to mention the bad publicity from the treatment of not one group of employees, but also the international pilots awaiting their EBA being sorted out.

This kick in the knackers has happened 7 times previously, and enough is enough.

Talkwrench

20th Apr 2008, 00:35

If Qantas is so keen on getting PIA underway, why did they send a QC and the QF Negotiating team to the AIRC to argue about the wording of the ALAEA application for PIA ballot? The only purpose this served was to DELAY the commencement of PIA. It seems that QF is trying every possible avenue to delay PIA even though LAMEA380 asserts that QF is ready for a fight. I say to you, LAMEA380, QF does NOT want PIA. I say that the overwhelming majority of ALAEA members want 5% and are willing to support that claim with PIA. And I say that voting this ballot up and following it up with PIA WILL result in an improved EBA outcome. This has been proven in the past and will be so in the future (AMWU/AWU AME’s are just one example). The only difference this time is that we are operating in an environment where Workchoices legislation is slowly being dismantled by the new Federal Government, which will slowly open up more and more opportunity for us to secure fair outcomes.

The cougar

20th Apr 2008, 00:38

Lamea380 I have seen the calibre of the strike breakers the company has hired and I have also worked with a lot of them and believe me the company is in trouble. Most of them didn't work when they used to work for QE so what is going to make them work now? A lot of these guys were also treated poorly by the company so do you honestly think they will break a back to get aircraft out. Skippers will refuse to accept aircraft like OGQ was refused and FSD's will not accept poor cabins.

Talkwrench

20th Apr 2008, 00:58

If you are one of the few that are happy with the deal on offer and don’t want PIA to start, you still need to vote ‘yes’ in the upcoming PIA ballot to authorise the ALAEA to carry out PIA. Although this may sound counterintuitive at first glance, a united vote (90/10) will ensure the most rapid resolution to the situation. A splintered vote (60/40) will mean the possibility of extended pain for all involved. We all know the vote will get up in any event, so now is the time to put aside your differences and throw your full support behind this effort, for EVERY members sake. This is all about rapid resolution of a difficult situation to get an EBA outcome that will be accepted and voted up. If that is what you want, vote yes and encourage your colleagues to do the same.

The Mr Fixit

20th Apr 2008, 02:11

The meeting I was present at said the current deal was NULL and VOID because Qantas changed it and lied about it's contents/benefits to LAMEs.

Our only option is to vote YES for PIA

To all those who may waver, these following items scare the bejesus out of the management and have the Board members breaking their B@ll$

Falling Share Price
Falling Forward Bookings
Public Awareness of the failings of Overseas Maintenance (More Staple stories)
Governmental awareness (Workplace Ombudsman) of the state of Annual, LSL Leave owing
CASA embarrassment re: non release of publicly available audit documents

A Bloody battle will ensue for sure............BRING IT ON

chemical alli

20th Apr 2008, 03:09

to the fedsec.
during the winter of discontent in regard to the 1920,s coalminers dispute.once locked out by the companies representing the owners.
Workers were granted subsidy wages by respective state governments due to legislation.
just a question ? does this legislation regarding locked out employees still exist ?
also if the employees mass striked,no state funding was afforded.
do not walk out at all costs boys,

aveng

20th Apr 2008, 03:22

A380Lame
You must very uncomfortable in your ability as a Lame if you need to sidle up to management to survive. I am comfortable enough to go somewhere else if my skills are not wanted or valued at QF. Bring on the PIA and make it a convincing vote for the exec to wave in MH & DC faces.

Short_Circuit

20th Apr 2008, 04:48

If QE Management are ready to fight etc etc ...
why are they rejecting ALL leave again at SYD Base from May?
Seems like they can not afford to let anyone off for even one day.
:suspect:
If you can't afford a few days off work to protect your pay & conditions at QF,
go now! to the other airlines & MROs, you'll get a pay rise in the deal.

The rest of us want to resurrect QE.

PIA now.:ok:

employes perspective

20th Apr 2008, 05:37

currently there are 1700 LAME's working unlimited OT just to try and keep the fleet going,growing MEL's/deferred maintenance,50 to 200 Lame's(who cares what the figure is,doesn't really matter) scubs in training,look on managements faces when they realize there plans will fall into a heap due to lack of numbers will be priceless.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

PS.there is a get together at the James Squire on the 3 May for all the ex H.M people from H245,come on down and find out how everyone is getting on these days.you will find some very happy people who are now in much better paying jobs than a the RAT,oh yeah and they have a future;)

Millet Fanger

20th Apr 2008, 06:49

A380Lame
You must very uncomfortable in your ability as a Lame if you need to sidle up to management to survive.

Aveng - you picked him. It has been said that he has poor technical ability and his systems knowledge isn't much better. Mind you, it has been a long time since he worked on an aircraft. He has spent most of the last 10 years on the fat controller's projects or on courses. It would appear from his posts that he doesn't give a stuff about Qantas Engineering. Life is only about what is in it for him.

motown man

20th Apr 2008, 09:44

Does anybody know the quantum of the Alaea claim.?

I imagine Qf will be prepared to spend ten times this and risking damage to the company to defend some industrial position.

Geoff try telling your shareholders you are prepared to blow their money to prove a point.

As Chris Corrigan found out. You can #### your workers but in doing so you will #### yourself.

Qf are already doing this to themselves with out the Alaea Eba. The sooner management accept responsibility for their decisions the sooner the EBA wll be resolved and we can all start making money.

Bumpfoh

20th Apr 2008, 11:30

Skippers will refuse to accept aircraft like OGQ was refused and FSD's will not accept poor cabins.

No less than 7 MEL's 1st flight out of a C check in Singapore.
Finally grounded after tech crews refused to operate it. Some "love" in Melbourne to fix it with some more loving to come to clear the rest of the MEL/hold items.

No quality issues with overseas MRO's though.:ouch:

Slackjaw

20th Apr 2008, 18:31

A380LAME "you cannot win this fight"

:) Off course we can, thats a matter of how much resolve and how united the majority is.

If we decide to stand up united we will push through the below CPI 3% barrier, this may be upsetting for the "stakeholders" who promised this, but maybe they are so invested in this they can't lose either. Shame if they did, would that mean they failed? Maybe a restructure is required. Hope I'm not offending you by talking about your handlers that way.

More to the point you cannot LOSE this fight, you've ..er invested so much in this that losing sees your aspirations up in smoke. You've made it clear you are about yourself and no one else which means as a collective we must surely be about everyone else except......you.

So A380LAME repeat this at night as those insecurities haunt you "I cannot LOSE this fight....I cannot LOSE this fight..." It may be drowned out by the thousand other voices in unison saying "you will"

wingers

20th Apr 2008, 21:08

Qantas extends its maintenance repair reach

Steve Creedy, Aviation writer | April 21, 2008

QANTAS is selling a 50 per cent stake in Melbourne-based jet engine maintenance subsidiary Jet Turbine Services to form a joint venture with global maintenance giant Lufthansa Technik.

The airline is hoping the joint venture will give JTS greater access to worldwide markets through the German company's extensive customer network.

Lufthansa Technik (LHT) is one the world's leading maintenance repair operations (MROs) with revenue last year of E3.6billion ($6.09 billion) and contracts with about 630 customers, including maintenance in The Philippines of the Qantas fleet of A330s.

JTS, originally formed in 2003 from the remnants of Ansett as a joint venture between Qantas and Patrick, specialises in overhauling General Electric and CFM aircraft engines and employs 140 people.

The deal includes a 10-year contract with LHT to provide maintenance services for 124 Qantas CF6 engines used on Boeing 767-300, 747-400 and Airbus A330 aircraft as well as 66 CFM56-7 engines powering the airline's 737-800s.
It does not cover the airline's Rolls-Royce engines, which are serviced at a separate facility in Sydney.

Describing the deal as one of the most significant commercial aircraft maintenance joint ventures in Australia, Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the partnership with Lufthansa Technik would deliver valuable benefits both to JTS and Qantas engineering by providing direct access to the German MRO's global customer network.

"This partnership is a positive step for JTS. Combining with one of the world's leading MROs will provide JTS with global expertise, improved technical capability and an increased scale of operation, which will further improve its growth prospects and provide Qantas Engineering with a world-class jet engine maintenance operation in Australia," Mr Dixon said.

"The partnership is in line with Qantas's strategy of continuing investment in Australia when we can achieve the right combination of labour flexibility, productivity and capability." Qantas announced in December that it had signed an agreement to establish a Malaysia-based engineering joint venture it hoped to build into a $US15 billion-a-year business by 2016.

The carrier said it would take a half stake in MAS Aerospace Engineering, a wholly owned subsidiary of Malaysia Airlines, to get a foothold in Southeast Asia's burgeoning maintenance, repair and overhaul market.

The Kuala Lumpur-based facility has more than 1000 engineers and provides a full range of maintenance services for Boeing 747s, 777s and 737s and Airbus A330s and A320s.

The announcement comes as Qantas engineers are due to take a ballot on renewed industrial action, including possible 48-hour strikes, after an enterprise bargaining agreement reached with the company fell apart.

The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association pulled out of the deal amid accusations Qantas had changed some of the details.

Results of the ballot should be known by the middle of next month, according to union

rudderless1

20th Apr 2008, 21:50

So M stuffs two engine lines and now ACS and previously the Sydney monorail. The CFM engine line at JES has it ever produced a serviceable engine due to the ignoramuses running the joint. Why do you think Patrick bailed out?

M received a Birthday card from Rolls Royce for having an engine in the shop for 12 months (well done) This was just recently even after the joint had been Leaned to focus only on one engine. Well that worked!

Has the Monorail got that train back on the tracks yet that M gutted to "SAVE" money. I hear it cost a fortune and took a few years to do so.

With this mentality and assistance from you Wingers and your mate LameA380 I am sure they could stuff ACS aswell.
Then where will we all be? :ugh:

White collar crime!:yuk:

Got your bonus yet?

PIOT Bord

20th Apr 2008, 21:50

You are absolutely correct Wingers, it is not F.U.D., it is pure fact. While Qantas were supposed to be negotiating a new EBA agreement with the ALAEA "in good faith", they were secretly doing deals to move more heavy maintenance off-shore.

Good post Wingers, this point backs up the claim that the 'IN-PRINCIPLE' Agreement reached between QE and the ALAEA was set up for failure by Qantas before it was even agreed too.

wingers

20th Apr 2008, 22:25

Piot,

Thanks for your post , at the risk of repeating myself, all i have ever done is try to put a balanced perspective forward. i am not sure what exactly the press article means to the future, but i suppose time will tell.

chockchucker

20th Apr 2008, 22:30

Unfortunately, I think this is the thin end of the wedge.

How long before LHT pronounce that they are moving the engine shop to the phillipines or China in order to "remain competitive".

Heavy Maintenance will not be far behind. At least that will be the not so veiled threat during the upcoming EBA stoush with QF.:(

Sunfish

20th Apr 2008, 23:30

Qantas only sees lower costs. It doesn't see the risks.

Konehead

21st Apr 2008, 09:29

"If you think safety is expensive, try an accident!"

Vnavtwo

21st Apr 2008, 09:41

While Qf will know exactly when and how to react should the PIA go ahead, maybe making a personal choice beforehand not to continue doing any OT will be enough to make a difference.
All the time their OT slots are filled then the operation continues without any problems and they will continue trying to drag this out for as long as they can.
Why not be unavailable for a few weeks. Many must be cashed up recently. No point waiting until this all kicks off officially.

another superlame

21st Apr 2008, 09:50

Vnav good luck in getting the OT clowns to stop doing OT. These people are the first to complain about anything. The only time they will give in is when they become labeled as scabs.

motown man

21st Apr 2008, 10:30

The holes in the swiss cheese are lining up.

Anyone heard about the fuel nozzle manifold leak on EBC #1 engine. Casa should have by now it was an SDR.

Rumour has it that it was shoddy maint at the last heavy check overseas??

The worlds luckiest airline.

Look how much QF spent on the Qantas Link MD80 to stop writing off a hull.

Take five

22nd Apr 2008, 00:39

QE SYD at the moment, CRAP teams now 4 each from Dom, Base & SIT. Total 12.

Soon there will be more people on the CRAP teams than in the individual sections. Running around the airport and achieving very little. Does this seem like a build up to the precinct that we have been promised after the EBA.
Still, I like the nice break away from the pressures of the real work face.

The MEL’s continue to mount up due to lack of manpower and downtime.
And if an MEL is about to expire, QE just pressure someone in an office to write an EA to extend it.

Is CASA aware of this. I doubt it, as QF is self regulating as far as CASA is concerned. Those poor guys who are writing them up must go home every night with their ar$e#oles twitching. There may be some CAIR reports surfacing soon, and a few please explains to QF from the regulatory authority.

We are all aware that the issuing of an EA still does not relieve the LAME of his responsibilities in releasing the aircraft back into service. Just don’t let it be your signature that is being investigated.

Meanwhile the latest rumour from Base is that it is 120 people overstaffed. Here we go again, more VR?
My guess is that QE is planning to outsource more work to the up and coming MRO’s that they have allowed to become established, if, and when they can handle it.

Fantastic isn’t it. QE get rid of more people and the bean counters perceive that the costs go down. QE then says it has no one to perform the required work, gives away other operator contracts that we should be trying to chase, pays less super etc, and says that it is not responsible for the actions of this outsourcing.
What a Joke, but a great money spinner for some more management bonuses.

It must have been a shock to QE with the news that the 787 has gone backwards again.
QE management are banking a lot on the next generation of aircraft being self maintaining.
They are still machines, and machines break with great regularity.

And meanwhile the worm turns and the holes in the cheese move a little closer into line with each other with the aircraft that we have at the moment.

It is now not a matter of if, but more a matter of when.

QE cannot keep whittling away at the required maintenance and downtime and staff shortages and spares without the whole system failing, but it's just another case of they just don't care.

VOTE YES FOR PIA