Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA [Archive] - Page 13

The Black Panther

28th Jun 2008, 01:11

How we will ever trust the management of this once iconic airline again.

Move to end Qantas strike - Local News - News - General - Central Midlands & Coastal Advocate (http://moora.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/move-to-end-qantas-strike/799203.aspx)
A Qantas spokesman today said the company had issued its pilots with "suggested wording" as a guide for explaining any flight delays related to the strike...snip "The information is factual and it is not disparaging in any way towards our staff."This refers to an incident earlier this week when Qantas issued a letter to passengers blaming an authentic delay on the industrial dispute. Our international brothers with a 747-400 QF175 bound for LA had a long running defect causing main deck galley drains to overflow [you remember the 4 generator shut down incident into Bangkok] which required a waste water drain mast to be replaced. The aircraft was 3hrs late after spares where flow up from Sydney. Here's what Qantas Media told boarding passengers in a letter distributed in the boarding lounge.
Dear Customer,
I am sorry that your flight QF175 to Los Angeles has been delayed.
This delay is a result of the industrial action currently being taken by the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA). This action means that the essential regular engineering checks conducted on all aircraft have been delayed.
Because safety is paramount for Qantas, aircraft cannot depart until these checks have been completed.
The regular checks were completed on time. This aircraft was on the ground for a schedule 5 hours and the transit check was well and truly completed. This delay was to for the safety of the passengers about to take a 15 hour flight.

Filthy flithy liars....I will never trust nor give one drop of goodwill to these unethical, deceitful, pack of greed focussed scum again.

The_King

28th Jun 2008, 01:45

I had some questions (from other ports) about the Friday PIA in Perth and some company FUD propaganda surrounding it.

Let me just say, all the Perth LAME’s did exactly as the Fed Sec directed. We were all eager to walk out and then just before time, SP called. It was SP that directed us to stay.

After I heard his reasons for directing us to stay, I fully agree with him and think he’s a genius.

Hardworker

28th Jun 2008, 01:52

On you King, a few people were wondering why but pressumed it was the Union that asked you guys to change tack....

sickofqf

28th Jun 2008, 02:18

What was his reasoning?

yeah, lets tell the company our tactics.......a clue......NO......

Good work Perth and The King, keep 'em on their toes :ok:

Black Panther, tell your story and give your info to the press. Ben whatsiname at the age and the dude from the 7.30 report would both love to hear it. :ok:

crow17

28th Jun 2008, 02:18

We would all like to know his reasoning, but we must remember that this is a public forum and that some of the evec's ideas should be kept to the ALAEA and members only. If you would like to know I suggest that you talk to SP himself and not let too many trade secrets out,for all to know.:ok:
Crow

The masked goatrider

28th Jun 2008, 02:54

I spoke to him, I know the answer, pick me pick me.

Lets just draw up a little scenario. Eastern States having stoppages to impact the flts. Strikebreakers replacing LAMEs as they walk off. Why not spread their strikebreakers far and wide to places like Perth, Adelaide and Darwin and then cancel meetings at the last minute. Now wouldn't that be a shame if they didn't need them. Repeat the scenario several times over end then, low and behold, one day they will walk off and it will come when you least expect it. Yesterday and today's stoppages that have been canx have cost us nothing.

sickofqf

28th Jun 2008, 03:08

the old Fed Sec's not just a pretty face............. :ok:

division1

28th Jun 2008, 03:20

Which stop work/meetings have been cancelled for today?
I'm not getting any updates of late scratchings for todays p.i.a.
An undeserved example of good faith putting our guns back in their
holsters for mondays meeting. The bullets should be flying if GD is
once again wasting our time with doom and gloom.
A lot of people are getting tired of this 3% bull$hit, every time i pick
up the paper, someones getting 4%-5%, which seems to be the
norm. How much longer will it take for them to wake up to it.
The words of Bill Shorten were most encouraging
"these engineers are worth it"

1me

28th Jun 2008, 03:30

We could make a decent soapie with all this stuff going on..

"Like sands through the hourglass...so to are the days at Qantas.."

or

"Next week on White Rats..

Will GD buckle under the weight of public misrepresentation?..

Can KB find out who made him look like a clown?..

Who will M next accuse of being a scab??

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of White Rats!"

The Black Panther

28th Jun 2008, 03:35

2007 31Dec QAN $5.46 Mkt Cap: $10.343 billion
2008 27Jun QAN $3.01 Mkt Cap: $5.702 billion

Q: How do you make the challenge of high oil prices more difficult?

A: Put the Doc Martens on and take to the skilled labour that maintains your fleet.

GD .... you are overpaid.
Most critical decisions have been answered by outside influences eg Ansett collapse.

You have made two critical decisions in the last 12mths.
1. An Equity takeover offer.....In hindsight, would have been great for shareholders but bad for workers and the company as we wouldn't be here if the public had let you get away with your swindle.

2. Defying the cost of your labour in Australia after an economic boom and two years of records profit, while giving your senior management exorbitant percentage pay rise at the same time denying the people who contributed most to the profit pittance in percentage terms.

One word describes your decisions..........G O O S E !

kotoyebe

28th Jun 2008, 04:26

Gossip, and I mean gossip around the office this morning was that there is some sort of sweetener ala the FA's coming your way on Monday (eg $2k), but no way, Jose is there going to be any movement on the 3%.

Stick to your guns with the 5%, guys. They want this resolved because of the end of financial year, school holidays, and The Papal presence.

Also, SLFAussie, has really hit the nail in terms of the media representation. I've seen and heard GD and KB talk over the last couple of weeks, and as much as I hate to say it, they have come accross sounding the more reasonable and "believable". All their absolute lies have been presented, and unquestioned as fact...even on the ABC. "Upto 7% bonus last year" Yeah, right Geoff.

Something needs to be done with regards to the media battle. However, I don't what can be done about it.

Hardworker

28th Jun 2008, 04:32

Sweetners are fine but its going to have to be a pretty big one, this EBA is due to expire in less than 4-6months.....This original EBA can only be for 2 years, anything more is silly....

Dockie

28th Jun 2008, 04:49

I read an article in the MHS this morning and part of it states :-
Barbara Pocock, director of Adelaide University Centre for Work and Life said "Annual leave is a primary protection against burnout at work. It's there for a reason".
Goes to show what our "management" think of us.

Number 5 is alive.

propnut

28th Jun 2008, 05:15

According to Janice Witham's book, BLACK BOX, David Warren is credited with the invention of the Cockpit Voice Recorder, aka The BLACK BOX. He was NOT a Qantas employee.
It is well worth the read. ISN 0 7344 0770 X

1me

28th Jun 2008, 05:32

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.. He might not have been a QF employee but he is an Aussie..

shagonarock

28th Jun 2008, 05:52

Gossip, and I mean gossip around the office this morning was that there is some sort of sweetener ala the FA's coming your way on Monday (eg $2k), but no way, Jose is there going to be any movement on the 3%.

Yeah $2K,,,,, but I'm sure given just half a chance, our Lovely FOG will retalliate By withholding any forthcoming annual bonus. We all know this Bloke just can't be trusted :=:=

this 3% crap is well passed its use by date.
5% and as a bonus GD's head on a platter :ok:

vortsa

28th Jun 2008, 06:15

Because some posts were deleted by the registered user, not PPRuNe. That is the user's prerogative.

Now the media are scrutinizing these threads more closely, perhaps all the company stooges have removed their contributions, not wishing to be found out??

Anulus Filler

28th Jun 2008, 06:30

BASE WAGE INCREASES EITHER IN EXTRA GRADES OR STRAIGHT PERCENTAGE.....NO BULLSH!T ONE OFF SWEETNERS!!!:yuk:

acslame

28th Jun 2008, 06:39

K9P

28th Jun 2008, 07:19

If it's $2K it's just chickens:mad:t.
What we want is a realistic pay increase, and a management that has some concept of the scope of our job,instead of looking at us with contempt. These guys think we are just running a factory, but you can't go back and claim your warranty at 35,00ft.

Long Bay Mauler

28th Jun 2008, 07:23

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/lbcc/media/Avatars/andy.gif (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/lbcc/media/Avatars/andy.gif)

"Okay,3% ,but I want a smurf suit"

NAS1801

28th Jun 2008, 07:40

hmmm no good bug-a-lugs.... you'll just feel like a pillock

triple bogie

28th Jun 2008, 08:15

5%

'united we stand'

MR WOBBLES

28th Jun 2008, 08:17

$2000 sign on bonus divided by 3 years =$667pa after tax=$400
Remember
this is not compounding
It will not increase your super
It will not increase your wage
It is just a bribe
thanks for the offer of 7.80 per week over 3 years

But I will take the 5%

Rak-a-san

28th Jun 2008, 08:33

Ok let me see what sweetners could we wish for?

I know, salary sacrifice of mortages. (I'd like to see that)
I believe it only takes a quick letter to the ATO from QANTAS saying the they wish to provide this programme for their employees and once approved by the ATO, it's all systems go.

Whilst we are there, throw in salary sacrifice of health insurance for our families. I bet everyone on this forum could come up with a 1000 ideas.

Oh, by the way Geoff, I STILL WANT 5%. I'll bargain at the sacrifice of some managers

sky rocket

28th Jun 2008, 08:34

They can shove their $2000 sign on bonus up their tail pipes. I'm not interested until it is an increase of our base wage.

blackhander

28th Jun 2008, 08:34

But wait, we'll probably be asked to give them something in return for their 'generosity'. Creation of a B scale for new starters like the sandwich servers perhaps.

Sorry that should be a C scale, B scale is post '96

delta 4

28th Jun 2008, 08:34

5% increase to basic wage ABSOLUTE MINIMUM............... or GD are you really offering the mythical $130K p.a. and the 3%-4% bonus.................oops! I've just had a wet dream :E
D4

Rak-a-san

28th Jun 2008, 08:41

On a positive note

I went to see a doctor today, new guy in our town. I started telling him what I did for a living... He came straight out and asked me what I was licenced on. After I picked myself back off the floor he told me he use to be the former Chief Medical Officer for QATAR Airways. He has just moved into our area as a partial retirement. He has been following this PIA since the start and told me to pass on his support to everyone involved. He told me that he and the other doctors in the establishment were all 100% supportive of our cause.

I started to feel better almost straight away

And Guess what? He gave me airline discount for the consultation :ok::D

Mech-prentice

28th Jun 2008, 09:19

Probably the wrong place for this, but is it possible that when users delete posts that a "Post #3977 deleted by [user/mod]" note remain? It'd still allow users to remove the content of their post (the post above shows why this is a good feature) but keeps the context of replies in place. Otherwise it can mess with the flow of the thread (for instance, if captaindejavu deletes his post my reference to "the post above" won't make much sense*). That'd keep post numbers correct too - which is important when people make references to them. Several times in this thread people have replied directly to a post number - all those references are to the wrong posts now.

A related aside: do the permalinks to posts still work when earlier posts have been deleted? That is, if I permalink to post #100 and posts #10-#19 are deleted, will my link point to the same post (now #90) or still #100 (which isn't what I originally linked to)?

[/off topic]

* edit: he did! or PPRUNE's database is being funny again. Anyway, he mentioned a good reason deleting posts should be allowed.

stiffnut

28th Jun 2008, 09:23

I'm not deleting my posts, as i'm a polygamist and i've got several families to support.!!!!!!

stiffnut

28th Jun 2008, 09:27

captaindejavu where have you gone, it was only on the website for a couple of minutes now its gone

The Black Panther

28th Jun 2008, 09:34

5%5%5%5%5%_________5%________%
5%___________________%_%______5
5%____________________5%______5
5%____________________________5
5%___________________________5
5%5%5%5%__________________5
__________5%_______________5
___________5%_____________5
___________5%____________5___________5%
___________5%___________5___________5__%
__________5%___________5_____________5%
5%5%5%5%

stiffnut

28th Jun 2008, 10:07

Have spoken to an IT guy, and for all of you that are worrying about your identity being found out, you can't be found guilty if you have posted inflammatory remarks as all systems can be hacked and someone else could have posted them using your name, as long as you never admit to posting anything it can't be proved, remember the visiting of a porn site on the qantas internet system, i forgot to log off etc. as far as you are concerned it could have been your wife, son daughter or neighbour that was in for a beer and thought he would have a bit of fun, so if the worst ever came never admit to it.
PS I didn't write this

sky rocket

28th Jun 2008, 10:28

Hey stiffnut. Looks like someone has hacked my account. :oh:

Boardman

28th Jun 2008, 10:34

I had a post deleted a couple of days ago. I did not delete it.

Tailskid can you enlight me. If it was not a clitch what is happening?

Just curious.

Collando

28th Jun 2008, 10:35

$2000 times 1500

$3 million

ohh big spenders

actually thats about how much it will cost to pay us 2% extra.

Ill take the 5% thanks

5% + 5% + 5%

Dr Itzfukt

28th Jun 2008, 10:41

Not a problem, I'll take the $2k bonus on top of the 5% rise. Thanks FOG!

tail wheel

28th Jun 2008, 10:42

vortsa.

"Now the media are scrutinizing these threads more closely, perhaps all the company stooges have removed their contributions, not wishing to be found out??"

You could not be further from the truth - and that is a very unreasonable statement!!! :mad:

I can "see" the deleted posts and I know and understand why they were deleted. Every post was in support of the aircraft engineers.

You stick to your campaign - I'll manage this thread!! :*

Tail Wheel

Dr Itzfukt

28th Jun 2008, 10:45

The previous post wasn't from me, or was it? Maybe this one wasn't either, or was it. Gee I'm confused, or maybe I'm not because I might have been hacked. So if I hacked in I wouldn't be confused, but then again if I didn't I would.
:ugh::}:):mad::p:D:=:sad::E

beachhead

28th Jun 2008, 11:53

FED SEC
At the meeting on monday I would like you to add this
non negotiable demand
BRING BACK THE KING GEE SHIRTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO MORE OF THIS ILL FITTING CHINESE ****!!!!!!
They arn't even good to clean the car with!!!
And yes I have tried

Maintain the rage!

PS the socks with some mister sheen do a pretty good job

While you're at it the King Gee pants would go down well. Then you wouldn't need to tell the Doc you've got a sweaty sack problem just to get them.:O

PerBro

28th Jun 2008, 11:55

Hey Guys/gals

Keep Rockin!!!!

May The Force Be With You........

Thanks Reps Rippin It Up,yehhhhh.......

Monday Looks Good Maybe We Can Move Fwd On This One?

Either Way The Alaea Rocks,

See Ya Bro:8

lovelondon

28th Jun 2008, 12:11

con verted

28th Jun 2008, 12:34

There are many non LAME Qantas employees viewing this thread who fully support your PIA and sincerely hope that you get your 5%. As a LH Cabin Crew I dont even mind our EBA was only 3% and that you may eventually get the 5% you genuinely deserve.

What I do object to is being referred to as a ' sandwich server ' while I quietly put up with angry pax and having my roster severely disrupted. When you started your OT bans I signed on for a duty and in the end the flight didnt depart because we missed curfew. No problem for me but it was for the commuting crew who had to find hotel accommodation at midnight at their own expense . Many people are greatly inconvenienced by this PIA but I havent met any other CC who dont support the engineers .A little respect please.

I wouldnt dream of calling a LAME a " mechanic " for example.

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Lovelondon,
As a long time watcher and also a LAME, I definitely would not wish to known as a mechanic, so for the same reason I will never refer to you or any cabin crew as a sandwich server in the future.

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Boardman

28th Jun 2008, 12:58

Thanks for your support Lovelondon!

I have been on shift when some of these flights have missed curfew. Angry pax are not good to deal with and my hat is off to the lot of you for putting up with ignorant people at the best of times. I have seen it and personally would have lost it with them! Well done! You must have the partience of angels.

The big point on these overnighters that have missed curfew needs to be made very clear.

The aircraft that have missed curfew that I have been on shift for have missed curew because they were un-airworthy due to failed component and systems that broke due to the ridiculous sytem that hasd been imposed on QF by management. I do not know a single LAME who has physic powers that can make internals of engine fuel pumps disintergrate for example.

The aircraft do not get the care they got from our Heavy Maint guys, parts are being left on longer before being replaced, there are fewer spares so when stuff does break it goes into Hold, etc,etc,etc.........

I have said this before, our PIA is simple acting as a catylist. The guys stop doing O/T and the system fails big time. Throw in a half day off here and there and the sky falls in.

If we did not have the PIA most of these disruptions would have happened anyway and that is a fact that cannot be argued. If an aircraft breaks and is U/S and the clock toll 2300, that is the end of the game. Simple!!

Thanks for the support we have had from all crews, I get pulled up every day by Tech and Cabin Crew for a yarn and we do know you guys are supporting us.

It is our respnsibility to look after the safety of all who fly and that is exactly what we will do regardless of brickwalls put in front of us.

FOD & Co. stick and stones baby!!!!! Stick and stones!

End of rant,

Boardman

Layback

28th Jun 2008, 13:13

Qantas is a very large successful iconic Australian company with an extremely large number of staff and a capitalisation of several billion dollars. I fully support the need to ensure that the senior management of this great company are sourced from the best management pool in the world and paid accordingly. That figure may even need to be in the millions to atract the best candidate.
I have been a LAME with Qantas for more than 20 years and fully support the current action by the ALAEA.
My confusion and anger stems from the fact that the management of this company is compared to that of other international airlines and these guys have been very successfull. Surely that cannot be denied.
However I have listened to the doom and gloom and we all have to pull our belts in sob stories from our senior management for the last 10 years and every year Qantas has achieved record profits.
During this time time the staff have rallied and agreed to pay freezes and pulled their belts in. Management have reaped the rewards of their smart management and fuel hedging and paid themselves huge bonuses. Who forgot about the staff??
Now that we have come out of the "bad" times, ( good times for anyone in their right minds ), we are really faceing a difficult time and the company cries wolf again. If the staff, and this is not just about engineering, had been shown some respect and acknowledgement of their efforts, I am sure we would not be where we are today. Am I the only one that seems to have missed the point here???
Hold firm and remain professional, don't bite when the bait is dangled and don't give them anything to hang us with.
I am proud to be a LAME and I am proud of the LAME's around me. :ok:

NAS1801

28th Jun 2008, 13:44

After the failed Qantas takeover bid in December 2006, and on the back of growing concern of Qantas' future due to the A380 debacle, an independent review of the board of directors by the shareholder's representative group found irregularities and serious shortcomings in the current leadership. The outcome was a vote of no confidence in Mr. Dixon's continuing leadership; as well as that of Peter Gregg (CFO) and John Borghetti (GM) and a recommendation to call a new board election. Geoff Dixon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Dixon)

obie2

28th Jun 2008, 13:54

So what's wrong with being a mechanic?

1me

28th Jun 2008, 14:02

There is nothing wrong with being a mechanic..the issue is that we really don't want to offend those people from other areas who are supporting us in our fight.. It's just a little common courtesy and respect.

lovelondon..thanks for your support and that of your cabin colleagues! :ok:

Boardman

28th Jun 2008, 14:08

We must be genius types! No need for an inquiry to work out Management needs throwing off the train!

Hey it is good to see that this has really united all QF workers. No more us and them between the Tech Crew, Cabin, Crew, Baggage, Sparkies, Greasers, Sheeties, Check in Staff andso on. We are all getting on, it's great!
Pity management is the odd man out. It would be a top place to go to:ok:

Oh yeah! Dreaming again.

Bring back BD, Petto and the gang. We miss you guys :{

1me

28th Jun 2008, 14:27

As was stated that the mention of the $2000 bonus was just gossip..I think it should be treated as such. If it turns out to be fact then it is nothing more than an insult..

I remember sitting in an EBA information meeting many moons ago when a certain ex ALAEA Federal President was manager and was overheard (by me) saying to his underlings in hushed tones "They're LAME's...just show 'em the money..." -the inference being that we'd roll over and accept it. Perhaps that was the case then but it's going to take a whole lot more than 2k to spin my wheels!

Now 14 weeks bonus as some other carriers have done...I'd give consideration..

NAS1801

28th Jun 2008, 14:37

In 2007, Qantas was voted the fifth best airline in the world by research consultancy Skytrax, a drop from the second position it held in 2005 and 2006. Qantas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas)

division1

28th Jun 2008, 15:38

Take five

28th Jun 2008, 15:51

THE DRIVERS OF CHANGE have not really been AMAZING PEOPLE with any INTELLIGENT SPACE up until now. They have had more of an attitude of “WHAT’S IN IT FOR ME” and have been living in PITY CITY with too many COST EFFECTIVE BUSINESS PLANS which don’t exactly build THE BRIDGES OF TRUST that are required to MEET OUR KEY PERFORMANCE INDICATORS.

There have been SPECIFIC INCIDENTS which have not been OPEN AND TRANSPARENT and could never attain a RESULT DRIVEN PROCESS or a WIN WIN RESULT.

Based upon the DISCONNECTION BETWEEN TWO POINTS however, THE DEAD CAT has been PRODDING THE COBRA with BELOW THE LINE COMMENTS and PROTOTYPES ARE BEING CREATED AND PRODUCED which will ALIGN THE DASHBOARD INDICATORS and PUT TEMPLATES IN PLACE for a CONTINUAL IMPROVEMENT in OUR STRATEGIC FRAMEWORK and A BETTER GAME PLAN FOR OUR OPERATION.

PROVIDING A COST / BENEFITS ANALYSIS of OUR CURRENT REQUIREMENTS will result in NEW PROCEDURES BEING CREATED which will enable a LONG TERM SOLUTION to be obtained.

The BOTTOM LINE is that after our latest TOOLBOX MEETING, we have COLLATED AND COMMUNICATED ALL OF THE DATA FOR INPUT, leading to the SYNERGY for WORKPLACE CHANGE and after RUNNING A LAP around the STRATEGY MAP we have decided that THE TRAIN IS LEAVING THE STATION, BUT NOT EVERYONE WILL BE ON IT, especially M and his CIRCLE OF INFLUENCE.

As they are no longer needed for the STRATEGIC FIT, they will no longer benefit from ACTION ENTITLEMENTS.

The Shareholders

tail wheel

28th Jun 2008, 20:41

Mech-prentice

29th Jun 2008, 00:50

No worries. I wasn't trying to volunteer the mods for extra work; I was hoping it might be a selectable function of vBulletin boards. Never mind.

beachhead

29th Jun 2008, 00:54

ejectx3

29th Jun 2008, 01:05

This may be a silly question but are engineers divided into Long Haul and short haul or just to specific type? Are LAME's from both domestic and international engaged in OT bans etc? I imagine this to be the case but just want clarification. :ok:

mister hilter

29th Jun 2008, 01:25

we are (in most ports) all working out of one area. We don't all have the same licences (endorsements) so we go where the a/c require us. However we are all united in this EBA

Big M

29th Jun 2008, 01:34

Take Five,

Great stuff there in your last post. With talk like that you may just find yourself the next Manager. For those who don't know, that kind of drivel is the stuff we have to constantly put up with from management - and I'm not kidding, our work is interrupted to go to meetings to listen to crap like this. No where in that little spiel of Take Five's do you hear anything about management listening to us, or helping us with ways to improve "the maintenance and repair of aircraft.' Well M and DC, RH, TL, TG and DM, here's a newsflash - WE FIX AIRCRAFT. If you take the time to find out what it is we do and learn a little of it, you just may be in a position to make some informed decisions on what's best for the place. IDIOTS. :yuk:

Just like Take Five said, alot of our management:-

are no longer needed for the STRATEGIC FIT, they will no longer benefit from ACTION ENTITLEMENTS.

:D :D

acslame

29th Jun 2008, 01:58

Can someone with better computer skills than me post the strategy map
for all to see.
People will start to see the utter BULLSH*T we have had to deal
with over the last few years
Mean while I will scurry back across the bridge of trust to
pity city.

Maintain the Rage

PS
I am serious about the KING GEE shirts

hewlett

29th Jun 2008, 02:11

ACSLAME

Who was in the group of "Burly Engineers" that DC claims endorsed the strategy map as reported in the media back around when it was initially rolled out? Any ideas?

Big Enis Burdett

29th Jun 2008, 02:51

ACSLAME,

I'd love to be able to post the Tragedy Map here for all to see.
It would show the amount of utter crap we have to put up with.
However, given the current environment it may breach the QF IT
policy.
For those in QF, go to the ACS intranet page. There they have
a full description of the entire map. Be warned though, it may
cause uncontrollable vomiting.

Negative Feedback

29th Jun 2008, 03:19

Have you noticed that the updated Engineering Tragedy map doesn't have aircraft in it????

K9P

29th Jun 2008, 03:27

What we have to do is CAPTURE the MAJOR STAKEHOLDERS
lure them up onto the BRIDGE OF TRUST
and throw them off into the INTELLIGENT SPACE

And they spent good engineering budget money on that s:mad:t

Short_Circuit

29th Jun 2008, 04:06

Can I bring to your attention that a new str@tegy map II, (a registered trademark attached) been drawn up by management and guess what, the bridge of trust is gone. It has collapsed, burned gooooone forever.

It's replaced by 2 "Thresholds" that can be guarded by management stooge's to fight attack from either side, from progress & reality. They can barricade themselves into what was once intelligent space but is now a rabbit warren of failed systems, back slapping and trough snorting supported by The 4 pillars (fortified guard towers [SYD-MA/12]) & the 2 thresholds (draw bridges) can be raised during crisis meeting to keep Us out.

Check it out. I tell you no lie!

stoned philosopher

29th Jun 2008, 04:40

Probably drawn by the same people who produce the back page of MAD magazine. If you fold the map the same way you do with the MAD page you will get its true message. Look closely and you'll find Wally. Hold it against the mirror and you'll see the haunting line ... I BURIED PAUL ..

Stoned P

acslame

29th Jun 2008, 05:34

Probably not stoned one, MAD magazine made sense when you
folded it.
And I have no idea who said "burley engineers" were.
Possibly a figment of DC imagination.
But I do know that when they presented it to us, all you
could hear was stunned silence followed by absolute
disbelief.
That was pretty well the day madness took over
engineering.

Maintain the rage

I still want KING GEE shirts and a smurf suit for Bug a Lugs
but mainly the KING GEE shirts

Ngineer

29th Jun 2008, 05:46

Qantas, Singapore deny merger speculation due to fuel prices | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23922761-643,00.html%3Ffrom%3Dpublic_rss)

More brand trashing and union bashing from the Head Honcho himself. Long live work choices......

Maybe the same people doing GD's research are the same ones that were telling us that the travelling public don't care about safety anymore, only on-time departure.

Gear up all, a very big battle looming.

blackhander

29th Jun 2008, 06:16

Sorry lovelondon didn't mean to cause offence and appreciate your support.
Being called a mechanic wouldn't bother me though as the name blackhander suggests. Just don't call me a conehead.

No offence to my pointy headed brothers

kotoyebe

29th Jun 2008, 07:11

Mr Dixon said. "It is pretty rich for a union to come out and say we are going to strike and then say look at the damage that is happening to the brand."

When has the ALAEA mentioned anything about the brand?

More putting words into peoples mouths. More manipulating the media. More journalists taken in hook, line and sinker. All unquestioned and presented as fact.

This is an example of what I was saying about the the media battle. I wish something could be done about it. It's so one sided.

Ngineer

29th Jun 2008, 07:37

"This management has a track record, I think, of improving the brand.
GD.

How can the CEO make this comment while the EGM of Qantas engineering tries to tell his own engineers that although the stapled wiring was a botched repair, it was still an effective repair? Go figure.

HotDog

29th Jun 2008, 07:38

Apart from inconveniencing the punters, the daily cancellation of flights is actually saving the company heaps of money. Qantas can play this game for as long as they like, load factors increase on the remaining flights, great amounts of fuel is saved, less landing fee charges are incurred, etc.etc. Play it smart on Monday!:suspect:

MR WOBBLES

29th Jun 2008, 08:44

If I want loyalty I will get a dog
quote CEO QF
The dog is now sick of your table scraps

Ngineer

29th Jun 2008, 08:50

I agree with one thing you said Hotdog, our passengers are probably more punters these days.

max1

29th Jun 2008, 09:24

Out of interest, and only as a sideline observer who supports your actions.

What is the highest level of manager who is known to have gone down to the concourse, unescorted and without spin doctors, and actually talked to the passengers who have been inconvenienced, and also talk to the staff who are dealing daily with the anger.
I would say that person is worth hanging onto and you could bin the rest.

The Black Panther

29th Jun 2008, 09:40

Can someone with better computer skills than me post the strategy map for all to see.It is actually used in a tertiary management text...:ugh:

Talkwrench

29th Jun 2008, 10:00

With respect HotDog, I'm sure that more than 50% + 1 of LAME's at Qantas are happy to play this game as long as Qantas likes, too. Hence no certified EBA yet. With regard to the CEO and EGM People's media spin campaign: last time I checked, the media are not the ones that vote on the EBA when and if it finally gets presented for a vote. I thought it was the LAME's employed by Qantas that vote on the ALAEA/Qantas EBA8.

Peace pipe

29th Jun 2008, 10:14

Meeting with the company now on Wednesday. Predict another waste of time for our Exec. if Qf think some crap bonus will win us over!

They protracted this EBA with their constant drivel over 18 months:mad:
They made this battle very personal by forcing selected fellow LAME's in Melb. dock to work o.t..........what next ?? Sign out the aircraft or be fired:ooh:

QE management have a lot to answer for and being good at their job isn't one of them:yuk:

Don't let them waste your time on Wednesday S.P! Maintain the rage until we are showed some much deserved RESPECT!!

Anulus Filler

29th Jun 2008, 10:29

Meeting with the company now on Wednesday

This is the part now Steve where you announce the stop work meetings for Thursday and Friday. If they present an offer worth looking at, pull the stoppies. If not, persue them. By stalling their meetings to Wednesday, they have just bought another week!!!:confused:

1me

29th Jun 2008, 10:37

Stalling again??? :ugh:

They don't want to talk..they're just playing the game. Maybe we need to up the ante.. :ouch:

1me

29th Jun 2008, 10:47

what next ?? Sign out the aircraft or be fired:ooh:They can try.. but I'm sure there would be plenty of people who'd just love to have a go at them if they did! :E

Jethro Gibbs

29th Jun 2008, 10:50

theres been what 40 plus meetings already they are just pissing everyone around.

acslame

29th Jun 2008, 10:51

Time to give them 48hrs I say.
And while you are there don't forget
the shirts Steve

Maintain the Rage

max1

29th Jun 2008, 11:02

acslame,
Ask them if they'll get the guy who did the A380 interior to design you a shirt. The chinese version will look good after that.

1me

29th Jun 2008, 11:06

acslame,
Ask them if they'll get the guy who did the A380 interior to design you a shirt. The chinese version will look good after that.
Yeah because we can't get Yves to do us another one... RIP Yves...

Annulus Filler

29th Jun 2008, 11:07

SP any chance you can record the audio at Wednesday's meeting so we can publish it on PPrune?
All those who would be interested say I?

The Black Panther

29th Jun 2008, 11:09

This is the part now Steve where you announce the stop work meetings for Thursday and Friday. If they present an offer worth looking at, pull the stoppies.Dear Sue,
Stoppages for Thursday 3rd July are .....unless an offer worthy of membership review is offered.

employes perspective

29th Jun 2008, 11:16

time to up the ante,48 hrs stoppages should be just around the corner

Mech-prentice

29th Jun 2008, 11:22

...last time I checked, the media are not the ones that vote on the EBA when and if it finally gets presented for a vote. I thought it was the LAME's employed by Qantas that vote on the ALAEA/Qantas EBA8.

While they don't vote, the opinion of the public is important because it can change the effect on the company of Industrial Action. LAMEs can withhold labour from the company, which comes with certain costs (increased labour costs for alternative workers, increased costs from putting pax in hotels or on other carriers' flights when flights are delayed or cancelled, reduced income from fewer bookings and possibly reduced freight loads as a result of decreased reliability). The paying public can increase those costs to QF by choosing other carriers in support of the LAMEs even when QF flights are available. That makes the money spent on alternative labour 'more expensive', and means delaying settlement is more painful because more customers will return as soon as action ceases even though services will remain disrupted for a while.

-

What do most LAMEs expect to do once the EBA's signed? Assuming you succeed with the 5% and get the conditions you ask for, what will the attitude be? I don't expect anyone to trust the company for a long time - it seems to me that many QF staff have no trust in any level of management - but will management be given the support they need to do their job? Again, I'm not suggesting the management will do the right thing, but if they aren't given room to move by the people on the floor then it's certain they can't.

It's my guess (and perhaps I'm giving management too much credit for forethought here) that management don't trust the LAMEs to return to work with any goodwill even if they give everything that's being asked of them. If that's true, then what's the motivation to concede to the ALAEA? Not saying that management being convinced that the ALAEA is negotiating in good faith is sufficent for success, just necessary.

What would QF need to offer to secure the LAMEs full co-operation after signing a new EBA? Is 5% enough? Or will a change in management be required too? Is that a realistic demand?

vortsa

29th Jun 2008, 11:41

Yes That's What It Will Take

QF94

29th Jun 2008, 12:46

Am I reading correctly? Has the scheduled meeting between the ALAEA and QF management been deferred from Monday to Wednesday 2 July?

I haven't received anything from the association about this.

What's the excuse this time? The company need more time to get alternative workers and management in place, or are they building up to a massive boo hoo campaign to the public to smear the LAME's more than they already have?

acslame

29th Jun 2008, 14:24

Please can I take 4hrs off Steve?
(Don't forget the shirts)

Mr Invisible

29th Jun 2008, 14:30

Old Trojan saying
"Beware Greeks bearing gifts"

List of things to do today

1. Keep pressure on management to do more than "just manage'
2. Report all defects no matter how great or small to all required departments
3. Always consult eQ, Read and Signs, Email before starting work.
4. Do not plan ahead, one step at a time and always use the appropriate references
4. Note all defects that are wipe-spread and inform all LAMEs
5. Support each other with soliadrity and acknowledgment

Nasty Piece of Work

29th Jun 2008, 14:39

We will settle for

An extra weeks annual leave per year or a 9 day fortnight

An extra level for each LAME

4% per annum or CPI whichever is higher

King Gee clothing

Salary sacrifice super and 1% for all accumulation funds

1% risk managed against Company profit every year from now on

All sparkies to be tarred and feathered (Did I say that out aloud ?) :E

NPW

mel applied

29th Jun 2008, 17:33

acslame - wot is it with the shirts?

NPW nice idea re the sparkies.

ALAEA Fed Sec

29th Jun 2008, 21:22

We were more than happy for meeting to get moved until Wednesday so our full EBA comm could attend. Now is the time to show patience guys. I have already told the press that this week would be free for negotiations, it is up to the company to make the most of that time.

Big Unit

29th Jun 2008, 23:27

Mmmm, tax refund cheque just around the corner. Should see me get thru this crap and well into the new year. What about you GD, how long do u think u can make this last. Its hard to run an airline with no pax!:E

Talkwrench

29th Jun 2008, 23:58

Gday Mech-prentice. I guess I can only speak for myself, but when EBA8 is signed and it delivers a 5% per annum increase to my base wage, Management will get my full cooperation and effort as a result.

mozza1972

30th Jun 2008, 00:08

Gee more delays ,as an outsider LAME I would hope that no improved offer or more stalling tactics would be met with very harsh action by the ALAEA, surely they are on thier last chance by now!! :=

EWANQF

30th Jun 2008, 00:25

Fed Sec.School Holidays repreive for the company this week.Next week could be our last chance for max impact.:ok:

Dockie

30th Jun 2008, 00:47

More stalling tactics for the school holidays. I don't trust this "management" one iota and never will.

shagonarock

30th Jun 2008, 01:01

Fed Sec,,,,,,,, All you guys are doing a great job and we're eternally greatful, but if QF stuff us around on Wed then it will be a good time to come out with all guns blazing.

Hit the mongrels as hard as possible,, and in addition, , how about we
publicaly call for GD's resignation.

Lets have the media spotlight focus directly on GD and his inability to gain even the most basic of respect from his employees.

If GD ever has enough time and respect for his employees, ( and perhaps a dash of common sense ) then I'm sure that the great majority will batten down the hatches and do everything possible to help this company through difficult times.

WAKE UP GEOFF !!!!

max1

30th Jun 2008, 01:14

Mech-prentice,
Working as a professional in Aviation, I do my job well because I am proud of what I do , sometimes in spite of management.

I consider that most engineers would be the same, proud and protective of what they do, and their reputation for doing it.

Qantas Engineering has a fantastic reputation. It is that pride that management in many industries have been cashing in on to earn their bonuses. They appreciate that people will put up with a lot of crap to defend their pride,cut staff, reduce wages, under-resource and professionals will continue to try and maintain their reputation, it is what defines them.

It seems to me the point was reached where the engineers decided our goodwill has been abused enough, and decided to push back, and fair enough.

I am sure that if this dispute is resolved fairly then these professionals will go back to doing what they do best, and continue to have pride in their work. It would be fruitless to have this dispute if they didn't.

Go the engineers!!!

1me

30th Jun 2008, 02:21

max1.. well said! :D

shagonarock.. patience. We have been patient up till now. I'm sure Fed Sec and the gang are on top of things. Let's let them do their job................................and then hit them with everything we've got!!! Haha!!

ALAEA Fed Sec

30th Jun 2008, 02:28

All,

Its nice to have so much member support but remember to be patient and stop beating the war drums. The ALAEA Execs who have structured our campaign feel that we are in a strong position on all fronts to get you guys the best pay deal. We know a little more than is in the public forum and if we feel like it is time to step up the campaign or throttle it back, thats what we will do.

From the shop floor it may look like an ideal time to "make them pay" or "demand Dixons resignation" or "come out with all guns blazing". Please remember that the plan from here on in needs to fit in with a much bigger picture that we are looking at. Our EBA/PIA is being debated in Parliment every day, we have public perception to consider and we also know what is being said behind closed doors so please take it easy and let things run their natural course.

Dr Itzfukt

30th Jun 2008, 02:36

Well said Fed Sec.:)

Gen Y

30th Jun 2008, 02:46

HIGH fuel prices and soaring rents have caused inflation to reach its highest level in more than five years...

link:

Inflation at highest level in five years | NEWS.com.au Business (http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,23944467-31037,00.html)

:\

stuntcock

30th Jun 2008, 02:57

Yes I agree employees perspective ,48 hour stoppages would really piss them off,especially during the school holidays:{:{:{:{

chanel1234

30th Jun 2008, 03:18

Mr Fed Sec,

re your comment that the dispute is being debated in parliment every day.

I have watched every session on the ABC last week or so, i could be wrong but i think 2 questions where asked by the opposition and the 2 answers very very short and i think where nicely sidestepped by the government.

How can you call this a debate? i think you are misleading your members or have delusional tendancies.

1me

30th Jun 2008, 03:18

Well I hope the company doesn't force us to do just that, stuntcock.
Fed Sec has called for patience so I'll do as I'm instructed.

BTW ALAEA Fed Sec and co..thanks for your efforts thus far. You have shown more ticker and purpose than previous execs (not that I want to disrespect previous leadership) and the way that the membership has united is a testament to your leadership. Well done!! :D We are fully behind you. :ok:

redhawk37

30th Jun 2008, 03:38

Guys, Guys - you have all lost perspective - so what if we call for GD's resignation, do you think that will matter a toss to him or the board. Didint you read what the board said in New York? We are just giving GD a bigger and bigger stick to beat us with, and whatever else you might think he's or the other members of the executive team are not complete idiots - they will have plans which we are giving them the excuse to use. Do you have that much faith in the blokes (or is it a she?) out in front he association of t- do you honestly reckon they are smarter than the QF leadership - mate get serious.

By the way, GD is a labor man, always has been and always will be, a big time labor man and he has more connections in the party than the ALAEA. The rubbish about the Howard govt pandering to QF in fact is rubbish - GD did not have a good relationship with Howard/Costello at all - Thats the fact! I know the ALAEA wants us to beieve otherwise but its just the plain fact.
The bottom line is that the ALAEA leadership has got it just plain wrong. Read the papers guys theres a whole other world out there.

If the ALAEA leaders want a fight then they should go home and start another with their wives becuase maybe they can win
:ugh: that one and leave us out - I got bills to pay.

woollcott

30th Jun 2008, 04:12

Hmmmmmmmm One of the most suspicious posts I've ever seen................

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

30th Jun 2008, 04:16

REDHAWK maybe you should sell one of your investment properties to make ends meet:mad::mad:

Roy&HG

30th Jun 2008, 04:24

Go Steve and the whole team , you have not let us down and its time for all to trust in the Team , when it comes down to it Qantas tactic of buggery has failed due to the fact that we have stock together . Lets not get divided and stick together and trust in the Exec Team.
Lets not loose sight of the original goal and not worry about asking for heads , we all know that they will fall and to rebuild this firm there will have to be a restucture.
Yes very interesting email from Adl maybe it needed some "smiles" attached :)

acslame

30th Jun 2008, 04:24

I hate those shirts 'cause they don't fit right.
Bring back the KING GEE
And redhawk, riddle me this
If GD was such a labor man, why did he donate so
much of QF's money to the liberals?
Something to do with work choices maybe?

Maintain the Rage

UP D Date

30th Jun 2008, 04:53

Redhawk sounds like just another management troll trying to bignote himself to MH, could be the recently promoted G@#se from Perth.....
Funny how Sh!te (Sh@te) only ends up in those positions.....
I guess he had some good training in perth though, being buggered by the big D*ck n all:{

Sunfish

30th Jun 2008, 04:56

Redhawk:

Guys, Guys - you have all lost perspective - so what if we call for GD's resignation, do you think that will matter a toss to him or the board. Didint you read what the board said in New York? We are just giving GD a bigger and bigger stick to beat us with, and whatever else you might think he's or the other members of the executive team are not complete idiots - they will have plans which we are giving them the excuse to use. Do you have that much faith in the blokes (or is it a she?) out in front he association of t- do you honestly reckon they are smarter than the QF leadership - mate get serious.

By the way, GD is a labor man, always has been and always will be, a big time labor man and he has more connections in the party than the ALAEA. The rubbish about the Howard govt pandering to QF in fact is rubbish - GD did not have a good relationship with Howard/Costello at all - Thats the fact! I know the ALAEA wants us to beieve otherwise but its just the plain fact.
The bottom line is that the ALAEA leadership has got it just plain wrong. Read the papers guys theres a whole other world out there.

If the ALAEA leaders want a fight then they should go home and start another with their wives becuase maybe they can win
that one and leave us out - I got bills to pay.

Sorry mate, you are misinformed as to matters of fact.

1. Dixon claims the Board backs him. Boards back every CEO otherwise they immediately sack them. When Dixon states "the Board agrees with me", it's like saying "My wife loves me". What he is really doing is appealing to your reverence for the concept of authority of "The Board" which is irrelevant to employees anyway.

2. Your fear that the Management has "secret plans" my be true, so what? So does your association.

3. Is your executive smarter than Qantas management? Most definitely! Your executive and embers knw how to fix aircraft. Management once was drawn from the ranks of Pilots, CC and Engineers, and could speak with complete authority on these matters because they had practical, 3 am. hands on experience. Your current management are chumps with no experience.

4. I don't care if Dixon is a labor man or not. It's the Board that has and uses it's political connections and has had the previous Labor and Liberal Governments wrapped around it's little finger. They will try and do the same with this one. Have you ever seen a Director "work" the Chairman's lounge?

I think that some one has been whispering FUD(fear Uncertainty and Doubt) in your ear. Be a good fellow and talk to your reps and do exactly what they say.

The Black Panther

30th Jun 2008, 05:33

Redhawk: By the way, GD is a labor man, always has been and always will be, a big time labor man and he has more connections in the party than the ALAEA. The rubbish about the Howard govt pandering to QF in fact is rubbish - GD did not have a good relationship with Howard/Costello at all - Thats the fact! I know the ALAEA wants us to beieve otherwise but its just the plain fact.Yes, you are misinformed Redhawk.

Workchoices fighting fund set up by the Howard Government.
Who was the FIRST business to donate? That's right, your labor man GD.

If he's a labor man the Pope pole dances part-time.

Wobulator

30th Jun 2008, 06:04

.....the Pope pole dances part-time.

Oh, I THOUGHT I saw the Pope do that on Gerry Springer's.

RooEng

30th Jun 2008, 06:06

pablo m

30th Jun 2008, 06:06

is that really going to happen at rose hill??? count me out!:eek:

hewlett

30th Jun 2008, 06:17

RooEng

Could this "cheap" workforce have amongst their ranks those that lost their jobs at Northwest Airlines when they walked out over a wage dispute a couple of years ago?

1me

30th Jun 2008, 06:28

I'm with the engineers all the way but I'm not sure they all are. LAX is a rapidly growing maintence base. There are over 100 engineers and are in the process of hiring 40 more. They have Sydney based union lames and strike-breakers, local non-union, contract and sub contracted engineers all working toghether. Everyone is trying their best, especially the Syd lames, to get the planes out on time and rectifying as many MEL's and hold items as possible. They feel whatever they don't fix there, they'll fix here. There's no shortage of cheap labour here. There's no support of the industrial action. Everyone is doing what ever it takes to increase to work in LAX. If the Australian engineers don't watch out, they'll start losing their jobs to the cheap labour in LAX.If my memory serves me correctly the QF LAME's in LAX were told to stay there by the union in order to have some sort of control over the work done there.. So I'm not so sure they're there of their own volition..

Likewise if the union said that they should come home then I guess they would.

As far as us here in Oz losing our jobs to cheap labour in LAX... I couldn't give a damn! The company have been holding threats like this over our heads for far too long. Should they finally make that decision, then sooner or later the reality of yet another mismanagement decision will turn around and bite them hard.. And the chorus echoing "I told you so!" will ring deafeningly loud in their ears..

Konehead

30th Jun 2008, 06:41

And the chorus echoing "I told you so!" will ring deafeningly loud in their ears..

I hope that ringing sound isn't the sound of a B747 hull striking the Pacific.

sickofqf

30th Jun 2008, 06:51

if LAX are doing such a 'great' job why is their last effort at an a check stuck in kevvys castle with a mountain of holds and fuel leaks everywhere?
:eek:

just more FUD.

Maybe that poster was good old airnair himself ??

Rak-a-san

30th Jun 2008, 07:04

Hey GD

With respect to your comments, "want loyalty, get a dog"

When I give my dog a treat she rewards me with at least 5% extra family household protection, 5% friendlier, 5% more willing to do the things we want her too, 5% more onguard, chews stuff 5% less.

Open your eyes and you'll see, reward your employee's, and you might even get 5% more work, 5% less delays, 5% more trust and maybe 5% less frivolous wasted costs.

Reward your employee's and watch the airline prosper, dont, well you'll see 88 years go down the gurglar

FOG

REDHAWKE37, btw a very interesting and bizarre first post

Jets on

30th Jun 2008, 07:11

It appears the ALAEA can confirm a ‘go slow’ has harmed the national carrier QANTAS. The ALAEA have professionally endeavored to keep the airline safe and reliable despite lack of manpower, lack of spares and insufficient training. Our reputation for on time reliable departures has been Sabotaged by the Go Slow of the engineering management for the past 18 months. Despite the rumor that other MRO’s have been penning of work that hasn’t been incorrectly carried out, IF at all, thanks Geoff not… they still cannot compete with our return to service reliability. The Fed Exc has my complete support, go team go.
Is it time to start a wish list?
King Gee shirts, shift penalties for All members on extended rosters regardless of employment starting dates due to sacrifice of time with families, .. :ok:

RooEng

30th Jun 2008, 07:25

Sick, I didn't say they were doing a great job. airnair?

hewlett, Yes, and many others that were laid off. NorthWest, ATA, ABX, AmericaWest, Continental, American, AirNewZealand, United, etc Like I said, there's no shortage of cheap labour.

1me Not only are they controlling the work, they are trying to increase the productivity of the LAX workforce. They are even making sure the scabs have enough work. You should give a damn! If you and everyone else doesn't, it'll be a NorthWest all over again.

Slowing down in OZ only makes LAX look more attractive. Unless LAX is forced/allowed in the union, which will neber happen

1me

30th Jun 2008, 07:31

REDHAWKE37, btw a very interesting and bizarre first post

Note to all: "Don't feed the trolls..." :ugh:

Big Spanner

30th Jun 2008, 10:23

Keep up the good work Fed Sec and your hard working team. You must be getting lots of different advice from us all. It would be hard to get us to agree on one path. I think we all agree to see this one out to the bitter 5% or epuivalent end. If we dont get it this time with record profits this year and previous years they will laugh at us next time when we grovel for 3%. It is up to your team to watch what is going on and take appropriate action. We have to trust you on this.
As for LAX doing such a great job next time ask them to do a real A check with the usual amount of OSIP. Have a look at the amount we cop here on its next extended Transit at base.
:ok::ok::ok:

Flugbegleiter

30th Jun 2008, 11:05

This is crazy. There have been sooo many delays over the last few days in particular. Last night, neither the QF1 nor the QF73 went. The same thing is happening tonight! And the QF5 is currently scheduled to go at 2200h, if it goes at all.

I saw a massive queue of pax waiting (and waiting and waiting and waiting) for buses to take them to hotels. They didn't look happy. I really feel sorry for them, just as I am sure all of you do. It sux that they have to be caught up in this.

When is QF Management going to realise how damaging this is? They need to understand that THIS IS THEIR DOING. They blame you guys, but it is NOT your fault. All of this has come about because of years of treating US, the workers, like absolute useless crap - a liability rather than an asset. The bulk of the QF workforce is against the management.

It's time for a change.

FOG

Millet Fanger

30th Jun 2008, 11:50

What is going to happen to the extra level of management that was created with the sole purpose of defeating the EBA PIA? Apart from the fact that their costs would have covered the extra 2% we have been seeking p.a.. What will QE management with them when this is over? Or are they being groomed to replace HM and his 'amazing' team of assclowns?

division1

30th Jun 2008, 11:52

If the Australian engineers don't watch out,
they'll start losing their jobs to the cheap labour in LAX.

A scab is a scab is a scab,
And to be cheap as well, :eek::eek::eek:.

If you have hired 140 cheap ames, what is the
level of supervision like?

PIOT Bord

30th Jun 2008, 11:58

I don't think we have too much to worry about with the LAX workforce. The way QE management in LAX treat the workforce will ensure that the huge churn rate of 'engineers' that has happened for the last few years will continue. That 140 will soon become 40.

QF94

30th Jun 2008, 13:15

I guess it doesn't really matter who is doing the job at which port. QF management in their wisdom have been planning for this dispute before it was even started. Why else would they have half a share in an MRO in Malaysia, maintenance facility in in LAX to c/out A checks and 330 maintenance in Manila? Our wage claim is their cover to show the public that we are "holding a gun to management's head".

For as long as aircraft are getting out, albeit late and very late, management are quite happy for the delays to be stacked up against us in engineering.

Once the dust has settled in this matter, GD, KB, DC and their ilk will have achieved their goals, and GD will be leaving his "legacy" on QF after he has gone. Either way, there is going to be a long road of uneasiness between Management and the engineers, and each one will be waiting for the other to slip.

We have seen Heavy Maintenance in SYD disappear forever to AVV. Now HM in AVV looks like it will disappear to the MRO in KL. 737 HM has been decimated and being done in KL.

As much as I am in favour for our well-earned 5%, management won't be yielding 1mm on their 3%, and are more than prepared to spend more money/lose money in not giving us a headline 5% rise. They have already spent/lost more than the $3 million had they agreed to just giving us the extra 2% we wanted. QF has a lot of money to burn, and that is just what the FOG FOD team are doing. It's not their money, and they're well-cushioned from any fall-out. Bonus-wise that is.

Anyway, if any good is to come out of this, it will be the shareholders who ask for the scalp of FOG FOD and the others that have spiralled QF into the mess we're all in.

Let's just hope we get out of this relatively unscathed with not too great a loss to our reputation.

Long Bay Mauler

30th Jun 2008, 13:22

Who gives a flying F*@K if there are scabs doing A Checks in LAX!!!

Last time I counted , 747's made up less than 25% of the mainline fleet, and Qantas always reports that most of the profits come from the domestic fleets anyway.

At the end of the day,it will still require the guys in BASE to provide serviceable aircraft if they want the product that they bang on about to remain top notch.

Plus how many of these "contractors" are only at QF in LAX because some slippery eel has dangled A380 training in their face.If they dont get training,they will walk.

Just ask the pommies in LHR.They will tell you that the money is not the best,but the training is fantastic.Just wait until all these "foreign contractors" are all trained up,because you know they wont be still working for Qantas 2 years from now.

Why,because they will be killing it as contractors somewhere else.

And guess who will be covering the aircraft in LAX & LHR?

Base Maint,thats who................:ugh:

PIOT Bord

30th Jun 2008, 13:30

Looks like 3 international flights didn't get away tonight - QF1, QF73, QF187. The only winners out of the whole shebang is the hotels and the taxis.

The most popular line in the travel industry is " I want to book flight to ..... on any airline but Qantas.

fixitdude

30th Jun 2008, 14:27

Herd a rumour tonight that a Hostie got quite a shock from one of the galleys on TJU. Apon investigation it was found that the galley bonding strap was not connected and the galley was not bolted down! Another quality job from offshore MRO? Any one shed any more light? :confused:

The masked goatrider

30th Jun 2008, 22:15

You will be able to read all about TJU in tomorrow's paper.

Sunfish

30th Jun 2008, 22:18

Anyone care to look at the political turmoil in Malaysia lately?

What happens to your MRO over there if Kevin Rudd supports Anwar Ibrahim?

Malaysia is corrupt from top to bottom. You want me sign off???? You gimme dollahs!

RooEng

1st Jul 2008, 00:09

Division 1 Ironically, the NWA lames who opposed the scabs at NWA are now the QF scabs. The 140 are not all AME's, 20 Lame's (all employed by QF USA or QF Australia) + another 8 (QF usa) in the near future. Supervision is virtually non existant. Very unorganized. When the last winglet that was damaged, the supervisor, who was supposed to watch the plane being pushed out of the hangar, was in the office, surfing the internet whilst a newly hired contract mechanic forgot to open the hangar door enough to clear the wing.

PIOT True, management treats them like sh*t, but most of the workforce have nowhere else to go. Airlines going out of business, moving out of LAX, downsizing and outsourcing are keeping a lot of poeple at QF. It started at 25 and has steadily increased to over 100 over the years. Out of the 40 more, probably less than half will stay.

Bug You should care, If LAX does a small % of the work on a small % of the fleetand only ends up doing 2% of the work, well there's the 2% you are fighting for. First you don't care if you loose 2% of the work because it's nothing, yet you want an extra 2% like it's a monumental amount. Open your eyes!

None of the contractor were offered any formal training, A380 or otherwise. Almost all of them never worked or trained on a A330 before but they are working on them now. None of the contractors have a CASA license, some don't even have a FAA license.

Short_Circuit

1st Jul 2008, 00:15

What happens to your MRO over there if Kevin Rudd supports Anwar Ibrahim?

I guess QANTAS will be getting the "Buggery" campain.

redhawk37

1st Jul 2008, 02:10

So now its starting, buggery from management and thuggery from the ALAEA. Nasty things happening in Melb I heart - I thought Norm Gallagher was long gone? Bring back Arty J I say!:ouch:

Orangputi

1st Jul 2008, 02:53

Oh Redhawk, you really dont have to be a brain surgeon to work out that you a company stooge / Troll.

Perhaps you should rejoin Prune under a different alias as a different probationary pruner? and then we will be all fooled by your amazing cloak and dagger abilities!

Imbecile

1me

1st Jul 2008, 05:01

Like I said..."Don't feed the trolls!" :ugh:

On a lighter note..let's hope the meeting tomorrow between the company and union is a productive one (for a change!) and not another trip around the 'ol "3% that's our best offer...Take it or leave it" merry-go-round!

ejectx3

1st Jul 2008, 06:22

OMG. GD goes to the coffee shop near my my mate's apartment! Hmmmmm...hes looking very weary! Hang in there Ginger Beers

idydir

1st Jul 2008, 07:50

five percent

Ngineer

1st Jul 2008, 07:52

Sorry mate, could'nt hear you. It's me ears you see.....

PS: Does anyone know if Maurice Blackburn look after cases of bullying, harrassment or intimidation in the workplace? (especially by certain managers)

Bolty McBolt

1st Jul 2008, 08:09

GD looks weary. So do I but I am not backing down either !

Who cares about GD. The CEO position is a Hydra, If you cut its head off it will only grow back uglier and angrier. that is the job description and should not be anything we concern ourselves with.
I know he has injected him self into our dispute but we all know what has unified the LAMEs.
It is the characters running ACS that have unified the LAME work force in QF. Its the utter contempt we LAMEs have for their ability, lack of long term plans and ACS management puerile attitude towards our abilities. :ouch:

Focus your ire on the engineering management. These are the incompetents who must go.
They authored, designed and constructed the mess we are now in.

Maintain the rage :ok:

obie2

1st Jul 2008, 08:26

I reckon you guys are getting done here. Do a bit of research into the South Australian public hospital doctors dispute that's been on the go as long as your dispute. It's been tucked away in the back pages of the media for some reason or other but they have just won pay rises of between 80% and 100% and you wouldn't even know!

These guys weren't happy with salaries of $180K to $220k for dealing with deadbeats off the street in the public hospital system so they all put in post dated resignations to take effect from today.

Anyway, they're now on $320k to $440k, as happy as pigs in s*it 'cause the Labour guvmint capitulated, and nobody seems to know about it!

There must be a lesson there, surely?!

Still reckon you're worth only a 3% to 5% salary increase?

chemical alli

1st Jul 2008, 08:35

quote from obie2( Still reckon you're worth only a 3% to 5% salary increase?)

Thanks for the support obie.

lordofthewings

1st Jul 2008, 09:03

How about you start publishing the amount of money the pilots are making.
Wouldnt this open up the publics eyes, maybe even your own.

redhawk37

1st Jul 2008, 09:05

Just cant tolerate different views huh, how 1970's. I must be a stooge, plant, troll or just an imbecile because I dare to challenge the mindless, no option position, that the ALAEA leadership and "thinkers" like you have got us into. Over what ? Well just do the sums genius, starting with overtime lost. If you need help I will have somebody come over and sharpen your crayons. The pity of it is that in 2 years time you'll be blaming everybody else, the company, the govt, the exchange rate and Collingwood supporters for the work and carreers that have permanently gone offshore. Newsflash - we dont all worship at the ALAEA leadership alter, some of us think we have the right to disagree, even if it does mean you and your thug mates threaten us and our families - Cousins and his storm tropers have it wrong and when and if they come back with 5%, and you run around proclaiming a victory - do the sums! Oh, I forgot, new crayons please!

:ok:

Bolty McBolt

1st Jul 2008, 09:12

. These guys weren't happy with salaries of $180K to $220k for dealing with deadbeats off the street in the public hospital system so they all put in post dated resignations to take effect from today.

If my memory serves correct. A bunch of people tried a similar scheme once.
Was stupid then and still is.

Doctors can resign from hospital system and work private practice etc I remember the Docs resigning from the hospital system just before 89 due to money paid by Medicare......:yuk: Your example is Not the best comparison to our fracas

Now I will take cover in a foxhole to avoid incoming abuse

Apologies to the mods for mentioning the war

obie2

1st Jul 2008, 09:14

Errr!!...who's 37 talking to? :sad:

...and Bolty, I wasn't suggesting that you resign, I was suggesting that I thought you were worth more than 5%. But look, if you don't want my support consider it withdrawn ok? :=

acslame

1st Jul 2008, 09:15

So exactly who is threatening you and your family?

Millet Fanger

1st Jul 2008, 09:23

Sobast, LAMEA380, ash, etc, etc, you have recreated yourself. Still promising your weekly input?

The end is nearing, but it is hard to see through the FOG.

Ngineer

1st Jul 2008, 09:34

Well just do the sums genius, starting with overtime lost.

Some engineers have become reliant on OT due to the fact that our pay has failed to keep pace with inflation. Since jan 2006, some people trying to support young families have become reliant on OT more and more without noticing. They now know, however, that OT will not last forever. This will be the next thing on the QF chopping block. What position will these guys be in then?
The only thing that you can count on is a fair and reasonable base pay rate. We all have our own budgets to manage in these "tough times". Not just you GD. In fact, I would consider ours much more important. This is why a fair pay must be negotiated in good faith through an EBA process. Not 3% "signed off by the board" simply thrown at us, whilst they help themselves to generous profits.
I do not believe this to be an unreasonable request.

Annulus Filler

1st Jul 2008, 09:36

FOG looked a bit like me after nightshift on the news tonight, F#$KEd.

Maintain the rage.

Slackjaw

1st Jul 2008, 09:49

FOG
GD POQ.

The issue really isn't 5% that's the catalyst, we don't want to be reclassified AME's we want our payout if QE decides to transmit business, we won't be told arbitrarily what shift we are working. WE will decide wether we want OT or an OT bank not YOU.

We will not XPT and we will not put up with these flag poling, lap running fools any longer.

FOG and team.

Take five

1st Jul 2008, 09:54

Heard strong rumours today and yesterday from 5 different sources that GD is done and dusted.

Anyone care to comment?

Is this why the share price has gone up 6% today?

Looks like the board may have finally woken from their slumbers.

Ngineer

1st Jul 2008, 09:57

Rumour from a few ppl doing the crap team today that alot of people in QF (many diff depts) are saying that GD has resigned. Seems hard to believe though, as you would expect a pretty big public announcement if this was the case.

triple bogie

1st Jul 2008, 10:08

Redyawk -not Listening!!(SORRY should be 'hawk')

Bolty McBolt

1st Jul 2008, 10:11

The issue really isn't 5% that's the catalyst, we don't want to be reclassified AME's we want our payout if QE decides to transmit business, we won't be told arbitrarily what shift we are working. WE will decide wether we want OT or an OT bank not YOU.

We will not XPT and we will not put up with these flag poling, lap running fools any longer.

Nice work "Slackjaw"

It is a timely reminder to what bought us to PIA.
The items listed above + including roster issue involving only BNE heavy were the catalyste

This is where the battle lines were drawn, Now it is 5% + +
Lucky for QF, M was on the negotiating commity :yuk:

UP D Date

1st Jul 2008, 10:19

AH redhawk, you've crawled out of the old Hanger down in Adl to have a swipe at those naughty boys who've taken your ball have you:}
Sounds like you've gone one too many rounds in Perth with the big D*ck:rolleyes:
Been buggered once too often maybe:eek:
You must be french....let the brits, aussies and yanks win the war, then enjoy what others have fought for:D

qfbadboy

1st Jul 2008, 10:29

Any one able to fill me in on the Bris h/maint vote for flexibilities in the EBA
The ones they absolutely had to have buy 18 months ago

The Black Panther

1st Jul 2008, 11:00

My average electricity charges were
Year... Price
99-00 $198.58
07-08 $284.92
That is an average increase of 4.61% pa for 8 years.

Average fuel price
99-00 $0.80
07-08 $1.35
That is an average increase of 6.76% pa for 8 years.

Average price of bread
99-00 $2.21
07-08 $3.36
That is an average increase of 5.38% pa for 8 years.

The LAME has averaged 1.7% pa of base wage increases since 1999

NAS1801

1st Jul 2008, 11:55

Not only LAME's Panther, most Qantas staff have fared similarly. Infact, I'd hazzard to guess that the only staff to have kept up with, or even exceeded the rate of inflation, would be those bareing a "manager" title.

1me

1st Jul 2008, 12:25

Actually redhawk37 you are just as entitled to speak your mind as the rest of us..just please don't be offended if nobody listens.

Oh and by the way...it's altar not alter and troopers has two o's.. Minor things I know, but as you were talking about sharpening crayons and doing sums, I thought a little spelling lesson might not go astray. :ok:

In all seriousness redhawk37, since you are obviously not a fan of the current methodology, what would you do in this situation?

1me

1st Jul 2008, 12:53

How about you start publishing the amount of money the pilots are making.
Wouldnt this open up the publics eyes, maybe even your own.I don't know that it really has any benefit to do as you suggest. I reckon Tech crew deserve their dollars!! :ok: There are certain other office bound empire builders that I'm much more dubious about...

QF94

1st Jul 2008, 14:17

"Heard strong rumours today and yesterday from 5 different sources that GD is done and dusted.

Anyone care to comment?

Is this why the share price has gone up 6% today?

Looks like the board may have finally woken from their slumbers."

The share price was up 6% today due to the floating of the QF Frequent Flyer Programme. Closed at $3.24

Not bad for the US investment fund that purchased an additional 20 million shares at $3.22 at the "QF Board meeting" in New York a week or so ago. That's a $400,000.00 profit for one week.

Tomorrow's meeting will be most interesting. If the FOG FOD team stare down the ALAEA and say bugger off (no pun intended), who knows which way this will go. If there is some agreement at say 4%, then watch the share price take off, and GD look great. Not that this will change the attitude of anyone within QANTAS, especially toward the management.

Anyway, fingers crossed, and hope that all ends well.

ejectx3

1st Jul 2008, 14:55

I can tell you the hours of study, the wealth of knowledge and experience, and the constant need to keep skills updated makes me happy with our renumeration as fly boys. I think all of us in QF deserve to be rewarded for input to what was once a great company. The guys I fly with are mostly a very professional and highly skilled bunch and more than deserve their payslips.

But so do you guys so keep the faith.

QF94

1st Jul 2008, 15:42

The letter from Richard Banson to FOD, dated 24 July 2003, is a challenge as to who will be around and who won't.

5 years down the track, it's almost true. The link below takes you to the letter and a beautiful photo of FOD in a Virgin Hostie outfit.

Here is an extract of that letter, and closing comment by FOD.

"We are running an airline not a circus," Dixon said through a Qantas spokeswoman.

Judging by the way QANTAS is curently run, QANTAS is the biggest circus in town, run by clowns, with FOD as the ring master. This circus will be doing the rounds when they pack up the tent and side show alley, and take to the major cities in the form of "Road Shows".

Media Man Australia - The Online Home of Greg Tingle - Journalist & TV Presenter (http://www.mediaman.com.au/articles/open_letter.html)

The masked goatrider

1st Jul 2008, 22:14

I wish I knew the lotto numbers a day early.

Plane had faults despite overhaul

Ben Schneiders
July 2, 2008

A QANTAS aircraft just back from a maintenance overhaul in Malaysia had a string of faults including problems with its navigation systems and rudder.

A flight attendant also received two electric shocks in the galley of the 737, which is used on domestic routes, documents obtained by The Age show.

The electric shocks, which occurred on a flight last week, were due to the galley not being properly grounded.

"(The) flight attendant was standing in rear galley and had one hand on galley bench near ovens and one hand on galley bench near (the) brewer. He then felt an electric shock go through his body from one arm to the other," the documents say.

A Qantas spokesman said the airline was investigating the incident but confirmed the crew member had received either a "jolt from a static electrical discharge or a mild electric shock".

A medical was undertaken and the staff member was cleared and returned to work immediately, he said.

The aircraft in question returned to Australia at the start of last week after extensive maintenance in Malaysia.

Its problems have led to renewed criticism from unions about Qantas' moves to outsource maintenance work.

Among the other faults with the 737 and included in a technical log of defects obtained by The Age were:

■Movement of the pilot rudder pedals was restricted due to poor installation of the cockpit panels.

■ The captain's window had been scratched; a check said it looked as if it had been cleaned with "Scotch-Brite".

■ Cooling ducts that controlled computer temperatures were not working properly, likely causing the captain's primary instrument display and indication display screens to black out intermittently.

■ Equipment that allowed the air crew to report back to Qantas and vice versa stopped working.

■ The aircraft had "throttle stagger", which sources said meant that instead of being able to use autopilot the pilots had to adjust the power of the plane constantly.

Other faults included a "squeal" or leak in the captain's side window and a small turbine engine at the rear of the plane that was over-spinning.

Engineering sources said it was "very unusual" for an aircraft back from a major service to have so many faults.

The bitter industrial dispute between Qantas and its licensed engineers, which last week resulted in scores of flights being cancelled or delayed, has centred on pay — but outsourcing has been the other key issue.

"We're working with CASA and Qantas to make sure these errors don't occur again," said Steve Purvinas, federal secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association.

"It's disappointing that Qantas are now trying to use safety as a bargaining chip when they advise us that they will be sending further maintenance to these facilities if we don't accept this less-than-inflation wage offer."

Unions have been critical of Qantas' decision, announced last December, to outsource some of its heavy maintenance to Malaysia as part of a joint venture with Malaysia Airlines.

A Qantas spokesman said it had been standard practice for the airline to send about 15% of its heavy maintenance checks offshore for decades, with that work overseen by Australian licensed engineers.

"This aircraft has required additional maintenance work since returning to Australia in a number of areas, but is now in service and operating normally," the airline spokesman said.

■ Movement of rudder pedals was restricted.

■ Captain's instrument panel blacked out intermittently.

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

2nd Jul 2008, 00:18

quote ;; A medical was undertaken and the staff member was cleared and returned to work immediately, he said. end quote..

Do you really trust the Qantas medical center,sorry outsourced medical center to come up with any other conclusion other than to send the hostie back to work,i few years ago when H245 was still carrying out worlds best practice,an engineer was complaining of chest pains,so he was sent to this Qantas medical center only to be told he was fine.Turns out that after he returned to the hanger the pain became worse so he left for the day and went to see his own doctor.Well guess what ?

HE WAS HAVING A HEART ATTACK,yet another function that qantas outsourced that nearly cost some their life..:ugh:

ejectx3

2nd Jul 2008, 01:11

Re the PA's being made to passengers about reasons for delays.... Seems a certain classic arrived late into Perth with an engine problem. The passengers waiting in the terminal were told it was due to the industrial action but a quick look outisde would have revealed an open engine cowl surrounded by engineers!

The lies continue....

(btw , why is this thread in the GA section not the airline section?)

Ron & Edna Johns

2nd Jul 2008, 01:12

Just found this inspirational site: The F.O.D. Control Corporation (http://www.fodcontrol.com/index.html)

In the interests of aviation safety, no more no less, there really should be more of their products around the workplace. Such as the following sticker:

http://fodcontrol.com/catalog/images/sticker_wdimensions.jpg

or coffee, anyone?

http://fodcontrol.com/catalog/images/both_mugs.jpg

and proactive, educational posters are needed everywhere:

http://www.makeitfodfree.com/images/products/miniposter4f.jpg

Perhaps the ALAEA should suggest at the meetings this week a funding increase to cover this educational material? Say, a 2% increase?

(I just had a wry smile at the image of each ALAEA reps carrying the aforepictured coffee cup into the meeting..... Hmmm, perhaps you'd better not.)

Levity aside, hang in there boys. There are LOT of people on your side. Know it.

HotDog

2nd Jul 2008, 01:13

Quite sensational indeed! I'd like a dollar for each static electrical shock I have experienced in my 33 years of flying.:rolleyes:

The Black Panther

2nd Jul 2008, 01:19

Plane had faults despite overhaul

Ben Schneiders
July 2, 2008

Could you post the link to this new article please Goat rider.

D.P. Gumby

2nd Jul 2008, 01:56

Overseas maintenance a 'major concern'

July 2, 2008 - 10:43AM
Advertisement

A Senate inquiry into the country's aviation safety watchdog has heard serious concerns about the quality of overseas aircraft maintenance facilities.

The inquiry is being conducted to assess the effectiveness of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) management and regulations, and ways in which its regulations could be tightened to enhance its role as a safety regulator.

The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA), an organisation that represents the industrial, technical and professional interests of engineers and other maintenance workers, has told senators the quality of overseas work was not up to standard.

They gave an example of an aircraft that returned from overseas last week with 60 defects that should have been fixed.

"That aircraft has had faults such as earth wires not being connected which caused an electric shock to flight attendants in the galley," ALAEA Senior Industrial Officer Gary Norris said.

Mr Norris said it was a "major concern", given the work had been signed off by the airline, which had implemented a customer inspection requirement in its commercial contract.

"Upon further investigation we were advised by our members, and we haven't had the documentation to verify it but we had been advised that, effectively, the securing bolts for the actual galley assembly may not have been secured," he told the inquiry.

"And we're looking at a mass of approximately 300 kilos in an aircraft that hasn't been secured properly.

"This is a major concern in that the paper system that, in fact, the airlines rely on to ensure the work's done, is not making the link to the practical application of that paper work."

ALAEA spokesman Stephen Re, who gave evidence on behalf of engineers, said it highlighted concerns with the accreditation of overseas facilities.

Mr Re said evidence suggested there was no process for the aviation authority to go to look at an aeroplane being worked on in an overseas facility.Overseas maintenance a 'major concern' - Breaking News - National - Breaking News (http://news.theage.com.au/national/overseas-maintenance-a-major-concern-20080702-30d1.html)

Following on from The Masked Goatriders post things are starting to look a bit wobbly for QE management and CASA. Finally someone is asking our questions and starting to get a real picture of what is happening not the diatribe the Company stooges have been handing out.

Hopefully the days of lies and corruption are coming to an end

Konehead

2nd Jul 2008, 02:09

Quite sensational indeed! I'd like a dollar for each static electrical shock I have experienced in my 33 years of flying.:rolleyes:

It wasn't static electricity. If the galley isn't grounded to the airframe, then parts of it will be live. The flight attendant then becomes the path to ground. Someone receiving a 115VAC electric shock is hardly cause for sarcasm. I have been belted a couple of times by 115VAC in the course of my work, as have quite a few coneheads. It won't kill you unless you have a pre-existing heart condition or a pace-maker, but let me tell ya, it aint pleasant. Ever been hit by a cattle prod or grabbed an electric fence?
And another thing. The galley not bolted in correctly, what sarcastic comment would you make of that? Or not having full rudder travel? Or kinked equipment cooling ducts causing your primary flight displays to blank? Or 4 knobs of throttle stagger? Or abraded cockpit windows? Or the B743 that was flown back from HAECO empty on an ATP because the flaps couldn't be extended past Flaps 5? Or staples in the emergency lighting wiring? Or tasks certified for that hadn't actually been done? Or an EA issued to defer parts of a severe turbulence inspection due to a supposed lack of equipment (i.e. a stand, a torch and an Eyeball Mark1)?

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 02:19

Or staples in the emergency lighting wiring?

Now now. These may be dodgy repairs Konehead, but as DC told us at least they were effective repairs. In his own words the system still worked OK until the defect was discovered. Kinda like JAL's bulkhead repair until it exploded I guess.

D.P. Gumby

2nd Jul 2008, 02:22

Well stated Konehead. It is no laughing matter.

If something isn't done soon to end this farcical overseas maintenance then God only knows what will happen next.

Flugbegleiter

2nd Jul 2008, 02:24

Quite sensational indeed! I'd like a dollar for each static electrical shock I have experienced in my 33 years of flying.:rolleyes:
You pretend to be intelligent and thoughtful, but the above statement just proves that you are gullible! "a Qantas spokesperson" suggested it might have been static electricity, just so that this doesn't sound like such a big deal, so that ignorant readers might think exactly like you have stated above :rolleyes:

D.P. Gumby

2nd Jul 2008, 02:30

Is anyone else out there experiencing Moderators stalling your posts being viewed?

It's happened to me a couple of times now and by the time the post is shown it's contents is buried back inside the thread, resulting in people not reading it and it's relevance in the thread are lost.

redhawk37

2nd Jul 2008, 03:32

Yeah right!:mad:

The masked goatrider

2nd Jul 2008, 03:36

Sounds like our boys have made themselves known to the Senate

Overseas maintenance a 'major concern'Email Print Normal July 2, 2008 - 10:43AM

A Senate inquiry into the country's aviation safety watchdog has heard serious concerns about the quality of overseas aircraft maintenance facilities.

The inquiry is being conducted to assess the effectiveness of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority's (CASA) management and regulations, and ways in which its regulations could be tightened to enhance its role as a safety regulator.

The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA), an organisation that represents the industrial, technical and professional interests of engineers and other maintenance workers, has told senators the quality of overseas work was not up to standard.

They gave an example of an aircraft that returned from overseas last week with 60 defects that should have been fixed.

"That aircraft has had faults such as earth wires not being connected which caused an electric shock to flight attendants in the galley," ALAEA Senior Industrial Officer Gary Norris said.

Mr Norris said it was a "major concern", given the work had been signed off by the airline, which had implemented a customer inspection requirement in its commercial contract.

"Upon further investigation we were advised by our members, and we haven't had the documentation to verify it but we had been advised that, effectively, the securing bolts for the actual galley assembly may not have been secured," he told the inquiry.

"And we're looking at a mass of approximately 300 kilos in an aircraft that hasn't been secured properly.

"This is a major concern in that the paper system that, in fact, the airlines rely on to ensure the work's done, is not making the link to the practical application of that paper work."

ALAEA spokesman Stephen Re, who gave evidence on behalf of engineers, said it highlighted concerns with the accreditation of overseas facilities.

Mr Re said evidence suggested there was no process for the aviation authority to go to look at an aeroplane being worked on in an overseas facility.

The masked goatrider

2nd Jul 2008, 03:39

Links

Overseas maintenance a 'major concern' - Breaking News - National - Breaking News (http://news.theage.com.au/national/overseas-maintenance-a-major-concern-20080702-30d1.html)

Fixed plane had 60 defects - union | Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23956759-5005961,00.html)

Plane had faults despite overhaul | theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/national/plane-had-faults-despite-overhaul-20080701-300k.html)

Bolty McBolt

2nd Jul 2008, 04:04

Redhawk..
What are you talking about.

Keep up will you, or people will laugh :ok:

HotDog

2nd Jul 2008, 04:14

Konehead,
It wasn't static electricity. If the galley isn't grounded to the airframe, then parts of it will be live. The flight attendant then becomes the path to ground.

I fail to see how an open bond on a galley unit would make it live with 115VAC. If that were the case and the galley properly bonded to ground, it would trip the galley power circuit breaker. So if the flight attendant in fact received a 115AC volt shock, there had to be a fault other than a missing bonding strap, or he received a static discharge shock.

The leaked news paper report is very poorly written as usual when it comes to reporting matters of aviation. In my opinion, it is sensationalist and will not serve your deserved cause. All it will do is to frighten the uninformed man in the street who will then happily fly on Asian carriers whose aircraft are so poorly maintained by the very MORs that you decry.

You have expressed faith in your ALAEA who have pleaded with you to use moderation and drop the war cries. Why don't you just leave it to them to sort out your problems?

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 04:24

I fail to see how an open bond on a galley unit would make it live with 115VAC.

I agree with Konehead 100%. As soon as the cabin attendant provides a path of continuity between the galley complex and another metallic part of the aircraft structure, he or she becomes the actual bonding lead/earth strap. Tripping of earth leakage devices all depends upon how galley accessories are wired up. Tripping of c/b's will have nothing to do with a pesron providing a return to earth.

Konehead

2nd Jul 2008, 04:50

I fail to see how an open bond on a galley unit would make it live with 115VAC.
So I've been wasting my time doing galley bonding checks all this time? Gee I wonder why Maintenance Watch schedule such a useless check? After all, the Reverend HotDog fails to see...
If that were the case and the galley properly bonded to ground, it would trip the galley power circuit breaker.
Therein lies the problem: the galley was NOT properly bonded to ground. And no it would not trip the breaker. The C/B is there to protect the aircraft wiring from a component that has shorted its power supply to ground. In this instance there was nothing internally wrong with the brewer. The poor unfortunate flight attendant simply became the path to ground for some of the current. PS it's the current that kills you, not the voltage.
So if the flight attendant in fact received a 115AC volt shock, there had to be a fault other than a missing bonding strap, or he received a static discharge shock.
These are faults we regularly check for, i.e. a galley bonding check. A high resistance to ground for certain components (ovens, brewers etc) is reported and actioned, because it has given flight attendants jolts in the past. The brewer power supply is earthed to its own frame, as well as through the same connector that delivers the power to the brewer. The brewer is then bolted to the galley structure. The same is true for the ovens. If the galley structure is not earthed to the airframe, then a voltage will exist at the brewer or oven or anything it is firmly bolted to, such as a stainless steel benchtop. The result will be, granted, an unknown difference in voltage between two galley structures - but up to 115VAC. The flight attendant bridging the two galley structures forms a circuit and voila - ZAP!

sfde

2nd Jul 2008, 05:14

Any feedback from todays meeting? 3% and 1% super perhaps.

SpannerTwister

2nd Jul 2008, 05:17

Any feedback from todays meeting? 3% and 1% super perhaps.

ROFLMAO

SpannerTwister

sfde

2nd Jul 2008, 05:39

ROFLMAO?

Never was any good at word games.

HotDog

2nd Jul 2008, 05:54

Konehead, I'm not saying that lack of bonding is a non event but if the flight attendant received a full 115volt zap by providing a ground path, there had to be enough earth leakage if not a dead short to have tripped the earth leakage or power cct. breaker. My point really was as stated in my previous post. I don't think that leaking unsubstantiated reports (which this one is until confirmed by an investigation report), to a totally uninformed newspaper reporter, is productive. Nobody is infallible. Many moons ago, long time before MORs were even thought of and all QF LAMEs were safe and sound, I was doing my pre departure walkaround checks on a company 742 at SIT. I discovered a fist size hole in the lower surface of the left inboard aileron. The aircraft had been signed out serviceable for flight by Qantas engineering who were our handling agents. I called the attention to one of the departure crew who told me it was nothing to worry about as it was only a small hole. I refused to accept this and asked him to rectify it. I was informed that we'd be delayed for several hours if he called out the sheeties. I then asked him to cover the hole with speed tape and enter an ADD in the log. He again refused so I said well, bring me a roll of speed tape and a stand and I'll do it myself wherupon I was informed that if I do that, I can depart the aircraft myself. In the end I sought out the leading hand and the hole was covered with speed tape. Not long after that we established our own engineering support which is still in place. I really hope that LAME is not one of the posters on this thread. Maybe I should have got in touch with the press?

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 06:01

Hotdog, no offence but I do not think you understand the concepts of earth and earth leakage.

IAW

2nd Jul 2008, 06:25

Was about to post the same thing Ngineer.

obie2

2nd Jul 2008, 06:43

Don't waste your time with this lot Rev, they're not interested in any opinion other than their own!

NAS1801

2nd Jul 2008, 06:53

Geez Obie, next time I am referring to the maintenance manual, I will bare in mind that the manual is only opinions. Good advice you gave to Hotdog. Don't waste your time when you have no clue about the subject that you are arguing about.

Short_Circuit

2nd Jul 2008, 06:56

Anyway boys, back to the EBA which is not yet resolved from this meeting today. Qantas still refuse to accept that everyone else in Australia are receiving CPI or above and despite the doubling of out workload (100% increase) we do not deserve a mere 5% increase.

The Black Panther

2nd Jul 2008, 06:57

Disappointing result.
Zero zip zilch!

Where we were 18mths ago.

We now play the PR game.

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

2nd Jul 2008, 07:08

time for a 48hr stoppage

Syd eng

2nd Jul 2008, 07:09

Any info from the Union yet?

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 07:13

Yeah Syd Eng. Notice out this arvy. Nothing.

Did anyone expect anything otherwise so soon? We will get there. Slow and steady wins the race.....

lame cop

2nd Jul 2008, 07:15

Why are we giving consideration to the WYD where not all catholic's and as far as school holidays, are they going to give us leave during this period.Why dont we bend over a little further for this mob.What a joke.We are the laughing stock.:ugh::ugh:

Syd eng

2nd Jul 2008, 07:23

Got nothing yet. Emails from the union are getting very erratic in getting them.

Syd eng

2nd Jul 2008, 07:33

Spoke to soon, got it now.

600ft-lb

2nd Jul 2008, 07:33

Has anyone seen this notice, or is it just hearsay so far ?

mel applied

2nd Jul 2008, 07:33

Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off

ALAEA Fed Sec

2nd Jul 2008, 07:39

I'd just ask that members don't post foolish things on this site about stepping up action. There are not too many of you that know more than about 20% of what is taking place behind the scenes and the reasons for our decisions and actions.

For example, last week our EBA was debated nearly every day in Parliment. Decisions can be made about your future by many different people. We are walking down a very tight path, the last thing we need is for self appointed experts to spread untrue rumours or suggest that we should be doing anything other than published on ALAEA notices.

cheers and thanks for the beers.

Syd eng

2nd Jul 2008, 07:44

Keep up the good work boys.

division1

2nd Jul 2008, 08:00

The scales seem to be tipping our way slightly,
Power in the numbers, which are growing by the day.:{
So many people seem to be getting behind us.
What was the feeling of the actu on this meeting?

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 08:04

Why are we giving consideration to the WYD

We better keep the Pope happy mate, we can't afford to upset the Big fella upstairs. He might be on our side.

Short_Circuit

2nd Jul 2008, 08:04

I'd just ask that members don't post foolish things on this site about stepping up action.

Right you are Captn'

Steady as she goes.

Big M

2nd Jul 2008, 08:20

We better keep the Pope happy mate, we can't afford to upset the Big fella upstairs. He might be on our side.

Too right, the Big Fella has brought FOG for us on a few opportune times during the campaign - if we keep in good with him there might be a few more days of FOG.

:E

As the Fed Sec said, work by all known procedures, CASA regs, PM etc and stay cool and patient, no need to rush now! Stay safe and remember

"To undertake, supervise and certify for the safety of all who fly"

:ok:

ballhopper

2nd Jul 2008, 08:26

There are not too many of you that know more than about 20% of what is taking place behind the scenes and the reasons for our decisions and actions.

thats why Im waiting for the book, or I might wait for the tv mini series.

Ngineer

2nd Jul 2008, 08:26

On a positive note, are there anymore meetings sched between the ALAEA and Qantas between now and World Youth Day?

obie2

2nd Jul 2008, 08:53

All these LAME posts are really quite embarrassing, aren't they?

Time to pull your heads in fellas!!

You are going down the gurgler big time!

kotoyebe

2nd Jul 2008, 08:55

Word around the office today had people talking about this being resolved at the meeting today by you guys backing down and accepting 3. I’ve got no idea why they were thinking this. I just shook my head in disbelief.

There was a real sense that this was going to be resolved, but I am not surprised at all that it is not. I really think they have no idea how determined you guys are, hence their thinking you are ready to roll over. I hope what the Fed Sec says, that they are closer to agreement behind the scenes, is true.

People are hurting out there around the network. One of the museum pieces, EBV, sh*t itself in MEL today, stranding dozens of international connections. As the duty manager said to me very forlornly, “I’m a bit busy at the moment, I have 400 people in front of me yelling!”

For example, last week our EBA was debated nearly every day in Parliment. Decisions can be made about your future by many different people. We are walking down a very tight path

If a federal Labor government, elected on the back of basically a referendum on industrial relations, does anything less than support the ALAEA 100%, they better expect a single term. Are other EBAs debated in parliament? What is so special about this particular stoush that it needs parliamentary debate, other than supporting the engineers? Engineers who are highly skilled workers in a supposed skills shortage, who have had below inflation pay rises for nearly 10 years, while increasing their productivity, at the same time as the economy, and the company they work for have boomed,

Management in other industries have been getting hard ons listening to GD. A relative in a non skilled industry, has started EBA negotiations. He tells me that their management has offered 2%. Apparently they think that if GD can do it to his Engineers, wait to you see what they can do to their own employees!

A/P F/D

2nd Jul 2008, 09:06

"WYD08 will be the largest event Australia has ever hosted. It will a
attract over 125,000 international visitors - more than the 2000 Olympics."

amos2

2nd Jul 2008, 09:23

Spent 40 yrs with you blokes, from a junior F/O to a senior captain on retirement. In all that time you were never more than a constant pain in the ass!

Glad to see the back of you!

Tried not to consider you as only grease monkeys but have to admit that I struggled with that!

And now, you're proving it! :mad::mad:

600ft-lb

2nd Jul 2008, 09:34

..and out of the woodwork they came.

Excuse me while I go get sum greese

YOSHI

2nd Jul 2008, 09:39

From what I can see we don't need to take any work stoppages, the system is comming to a halt of it's own accord!!

We have waited this long, another few days, weeks or even a month or two won't make any real difference to us........as for GD and his Team on the other hand????

If QF fails to cope with WYD, then it's down to good management!! And nothing to do with us.

As the company says....'Take 5'%.

another superlame

2nd Jul 2008, 09:39

Gee Amos you must be a thorn amongst the roses. Most of the Tech Crew I have come across are grateful for the work that engineering do. You need to come down from your ivory tower a little more often I reckon.

I can't believe you made it all the way to the dizzying heights of snior captain with that attitude.

QF will no doubt be a much better compnay without you and your refreshing attitude, and on the way out why don't you take Dicko with you. You both seem to have alot in common.

section 41

2nd Jul 2008, 09:41

I guess you are just lonley AMOS, will nobody talk to you?
Judging from your other posts it is clear you are crying for attention.

Have you tried the Samaritans?

600ft-lb

2nd Jul 2008, 09:42

To famously quote you amos2

Now look, if you lot are really as serious about this as you make out to be...

why on earth don't you do something about it?

Anybody can talk the talk...

about time you blokes walked the walk!

back around may some time.

Now that we are walking the walk you're denigrating every engineer who works at currently, and worked at Qantas in your sheltered industrial life.

So I wonder, what are you actually doing in a thread about the LAMEs EBA negotiations ?

I know if I were retired I wouldn't be wasting my anger on some 2 bit wannabe mechanics. I'd possibly be out living a bit of life as it doesn't last forever.

Or are you one of those people that is only happy when they have the ****s with someone or something ?

brownsmell

2nd Jul 2008, 09:43

Grease my up old fella Im going in!!:p

adenuffofqf

2nd Jul 2008, 09:44

Hot Dog A bit of water in in and around the warmer plates would do it,as would any number of things if the gally wasnt earthed.. No earth = no earth leakage.

brownsmell

2nd Jul 2008, 09:49

Grease me up old fella Im going in!:p
best of luck to you amos2 its nice to see you did it all yourself
must have been a bit squeeky and rusty without the lube.anyway sound like you dont need to worry about us anymore....go FISHING

acslame

2nd Jul 2008, 09:55

Yes Amos, to the likes of you we would have seemed little more than
pains in the ass.
All we ever did was fix YOUR aircraft
And the hosties were just there to serve YOUR dinner.
The rampies were only there to get YOUR bag for you.
The counter staff only there to give you YOUR first class boarding pass.
Really Amos,
It does look like life was all about you.

I refrain from my next statement which included words like pompous,
old and fool.

hi-speed tape

2nd Jul 2008, 10:03

Amos, you are indeed a " farking wanaker" !!!!

Tidbinbilla

2nd Jul 2008, 10:16

In order to get this thread back on track, Amos2 and his alter-ego Obie2 won't be visiting this thread for a while.:)

IP trace is a wonderful thing.

Jethro Gibbs

2nd Jul 2008, 10:26

so whats the result of todays meeting ?

rudderless1

2nd Jul 2008, 11:10

QF: 07412008
2nd July 2008

RE: EBA UPDATE 2nd JULY
Today's Meeting
The meeting between the parties was much in the same vein as previous ones with Qantas
claiming that a wage claim of 5% was excessive and ALAEA Officials highlighting that
increases up to 50% were considered reasonable when Executive and Manager
remuneration was under consideration. A further review of the current position and how
we got there was undertaken and no offer above that from January placed on the table.
The ALAEA did get the impression that Qantas were looking for us to help them resolve
the dispute. It was highlighted that many variations of our wage system had already been
rejected by the airline and it was now Qantas's turn to manufacture a solution. The
ALAEA were at least pleased that the word "solution" was being bandied around.
The Next Few Weeks
Senior Officials have had some interesting conversations/debates in the last couple of days
about our strategies and where our campaign should now turn. One thing that is forever
present is the Qantas claim that they have contingencies to counter our Protected Industrial
Action. This may be true but there is an assumption from Qantas Managers right now that
they know what our next move will be. They don't and their assumptions will be wrong.
The attached press release was issued today. What is not outlined is the extensive planning
that we are undertaking to ensure that our campaign beyond World Youth Day is effective,
bypasses all of Qantas's contingency plans, is legal and most certainly would not be
something the airline expects or wants to see.
Until then members should continue to work as they normally would, strictly to the
procedures and remember - Qantas don't like the waiting game. We will not be provoked
to act when they expect it. This dispute will be played out on our terms and the best tool
we have is called patience. Stay tuned for announcements over the coming weeks.
STEPHEN PURVINAS
Federal Secretary
:ok:

Syd eng

2nd Jul 2008, 11:12

Any truth that there is some **** going down in base maint tonight?
Corp Security involved?

Jethro Gibbs

2nd Jul 2008, 11:31

in other words nothing another week wasted.

Mech-prentice

2nd Jul 2008, 11:42

Any truth that there is some **** going down in base maint tonight?
Corp Security involved?

Heard word that a contractor stumbled across "illegal wiring"* in or near the Base Maint lunch room. There was conjecture it may be related to a non-company installed wireless internet connection.

It was all entirely unrelated to the industrial action, but I'd speculate the 'energetic' reaction by security and the way all the engineers interpreted the presence of security was effected by the tense atmosphere on base at the moment.

* - "Illegal wiring" in this case may or may not refer to an extension cord.

D.P. Gumby

2nd Jul 2008, 11:48

How about getting some of those security guys involved when we discover suspect wiring on aircraft out of overseas MRO's.

For Christ Sake (Sorry WYD disciples) lets get real and back to the real problems we're encountering not trivial crap.

Millet Fanger

2nd Jul 2008, 12:09

Heard word that a contractor stumbled across "illegal wiring"
I don't know how illegal it was, wasn't it organized to be put in by one of those new Young ops managers a couple of years ago?

D.P. Gumby

2nd Jul 2008, 12:14

Steve I think some timely road shows of our own might not be out of order as a lot of the members are seeing a pastern develop again of stall and same old same old from this management team.

I agree with you we are not privy to a lot of the tactics and behind the scenes meetings you blokes are having, but sometimes when we see the Management rubbish us in the press with lies and hand out letters to passengers, on delayed/canceled flights, with direct reference to engineers (going slow) being the cause of their delay, without any rebuttal from the Union, is getting a bit hard to swallow.

We're not buckling, far from it, but another timely meeting as mentioned above would help guys air their problems and have the Executive inform us that these things are under control or are being looked at etc...

Just a quick rant after reading todays email and the WYD let off for the Company to save face with the Pontiff. I can't believe their playing the religious card, whilst dealing with their workers in a most unholy manner.

Jets on

2nd Jul 2008, 12:18

Jethro, Patience is the game plan now. We have shown the company that we are united and resolved in our goals. Stick to the strategy the Fed Exc has developed. To all, we have started a journey with a worthy cause with a ban on excessive hours only, and remember……. Slowly, slowly catch a GD.

chanel1234

2nd Jul 2008, 12:20

Re your Secretary's announcement. I belive that he is a total narcissist and will lead you to a path of destruction. The only way to win a dispute of this magnitude is all out full action.

The longer this goes on the more chance that you will fail, not sure how many of you rely on O/T etc, both sides are feeling the pain , the only differrence is the company has more money. The dispute has draggeed on too long, the secretary is getting paid and O/T bans dont hurt him

The Federal Secretary keeps refering to the dispute being debated in parliment each day last week , below is the link to the Hansard re Question time, so make your minds up, 1 questions does not make a debate. I cannot find any debates he referes to but am happy to be corrected. Perhaps he has political ambitions am not sure.

Hansard - House of Representatives (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/hansreps.htm)

The Colonel Lives

2nd Jul 2008, 12:27

Take five

2nd Jul 2008, 12:28

EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO 5% SEEMED LIKE A REASONABLE OUTCOME.

That was a long time ago.

NOW, AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, I, FOR ONE WILL NOT VOTE YES FOR ANYTHING LESS THAN 10%

Other operators are offering at least this amount.

The cost of living is going up, day by day, on everything that we do.
Look at the price of groceries, power, fuel and everything else. They are all going through the roof.

If our Union think that the status quo of our original claim will stay the same, they need to have more feedback meetings with us before even trying to negotiate another substandard Offer In Principal again.
It is not the Licenced Engineers fault that this fiasco has gone on for this long without settlement. It is squarely on Qantas’ shoulders what will transpire from here on. The shareholders are not going to be happy.

Jets on

2nd Jul 2008, 12:32

Is it now time for an updated wish list?

600ft-lb

2nd Jul 2008, 12:42

What is the purpose of removing Amos2/Obie2 from this thread? I believe that he/them has every right to express his views in this thread.(whether good or bad). It appears that if anyone expresses views against the majority pro view of the thread agenda then they are simply intimidated and removed. PPrune is starting to show lack of integrity and transparency for the purpose of this forum website. I would assume that the operators would encourage as many people as possible to particiapte in your site, hence all the more revenue from ads that are displayed everywhere. And yes IP addresses are a wonderful thing. Remember IP addresses are not necessarily fixed and are often dynamic and easily changed.

Here's some answers for you and I'm not even a mod.

Do any of his posts do anything except try to stir up trouble ?

Why is a retired pilot so interested in giving his opinion ?

Why does he need to have 2 alias's to get his point across ?

Generally, most connections these days are broadband, those IP addresses remain fairly static, unlikely to change, and when they do, the last 3 digits possibly 4 digits might change, they still belong to the same ISP.