Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[rudderless1]

5 LAME's including a DMM docked 4 hrs pay at MEL domestic due unable to tow a late arriving 747. International rescue had gone home for the evening. Due lack of training, qualifications and LAP's all created by MH the guys were unable to tow.
Now he docks them! This should get real interesting.:=

[Anulus Filler]

5 LAME's including a DMM docked 4 hrs pay at MEL domestic due unable to tow a late arriving 747

This is what management do when they get desperate. Pretty well on schedule now. A couple of weeks with a heap of amazing delays and the management thuggery starts to show. Not this time...THE MOMENTUM IS TOO GREAT. Come on GD, don't come to the table and talk while the PIA is on. You will choke on those words. Keep plugging away fellas. If i were one of the 5 I'd be pretty stressed right now.... And that's not a good way to be when you're at work.:=

[The masked goatrider]

The Mel LAMES are about to walk off the job now unless the wages are re-instated. It would be wrong for the union to allow a situation where management could direct you to do something illegal and then dock your wages when you don't do it. I wonder if Murray will be standing himself down for a breach of the cardinal rules?

[str022]

QANTAS is under increasing pressure to resolve its pay dispute with engineering staff after passengers furious at flight delays staged a sit-in at the airline's members-only lounge in Sydney airport.
The customer backlash, the most dramatic the national carrier has faced since the dispute began, came yesterday after flight QF31 for London, scheduled to take off at 4.55pm on Monday, was grounded for 24 hours amid work-to-rule bans by maintenance workers.
Passengers were told to disembark after problems with an engine. As members of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association were refusing to work overtime while Qantas rejected their claim for a 5per cent pay rise, the plane was unable to be repaired before the airport's 11pm flight curfew.
Qantas put passengers in hotels and rescheduled departure for 9.30am Tuesday, only to discover further engine problems in the Boeing 747-400. When passengers boarded the plane for a 1pm departure, cabin crew found four toilets were blocked.
Passenger Alice Henry said: "They said they'd put us in the transit lounge with some food and some drinks, but when we got there it was one person with some styrofoam cups and teabags.
"At this stage, my husband and some other people said, 'that's enough', and we've got some other people together and come up to the Qantas Club and said, 'We don't really give a stuff whether we belong to the Qantas Club or not, we're all coming in and demanding some answers'."
Another passenger, retiree Bruce Stark, said many travellers were livid at missing connecting flights from London. "We almost had a riot here a little while ago ... there were people screaming and yelling and so forth," he said from the lounge.
Qantas staff, who called in security to deal with about 70 gatecrashers, told passengers the delays were caused by the engineers' industrial action, adding that up to five flights were delayed every day.
Mr Stark blamed Qantas's treatment of engineering staff.
"Like a lot of people, I'm rather cheesed off when I hear (Qantas chief executive) Geoff Dixon say it's the shareholders that matter, and most of the maintenance on these Qantas aircraft is being done offshore, and what we're seeing here is the outcome of that," he said.
The flight finally took off for London at 5pm yesterday. A Qantas spokeswoman said the airline had done its best to make passengers comfortable.
"If we had been able to accommodate all of the affected passengers in a Qantas Club lounge, we would have done so," she said.
"The lounge was completely full, and all other passengers were provided with meal and refreshment vouchers."
She denied the incident was related to industrial action but admitted the overtime ban was affecting operations. "We have experienced some delays and cancellation on our domestic network over the last few days," she said.
"These were a result of technical issues with our aircraft. However, the ALAEA has also implemented overtime bans and deplorable go-slow actions, which have also made an impact."
Qantas declined to comment on whether the toilets were sabotaged.
In The Australian this morning
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23807270-23349,00.html

[speedbirdhouse]

Good luck guys and all power to you.

There are many many many operational staff behind you.

I can tell you that despite the hundreds of F/A's disrupted due to bad weather and engineering problems, I know of NO ONE who isn't supportive of your wage claim.

The stress and pain being felt by the lowlife, self serving, fascist thugs who run this company is the icing on the cake.:ok:

[Sunfish]

I think Mr. Dixon will cave in today. The shareholders are the only people he responds to, and my guess is that they will express their displeasure at his management style shortly.

If I was in his position, I would dress up capitulation in phrases like:

"We have optimised the size of our workforce for our new fleet, not our current fleet".

"Delivery delays on A380 and Dreamliner aircraft have exacerbated labour shortages".

"As a stopgap measure, we will offer a 5% wage increase, conditional upon further savings being made in our Engineering Operations."

You know the drill, more spin, but the contempt for his workforce remains.

[speedbirdhouse]

Oh, forgot to mention.

I've had to deal directly with disrupted passengers at the pointy end over these engineering delays.

None have expressed anger at engineering staff or their wages claim.

Anger has invariably been directed where it belongs.

At dickson and his thugs.

My experience of those in the corporate world confirm that dickson and his team are held in contempt for the way they treat their staff.

[UP D Date]

Can we call an immeadiate nationwide 24hr stoppage over MH's stupidity, or do we have to give them notice??

[wanty]

Mr Stark blamed Qantas's treatment of engineering staff.
"Like a lot of people, I'm rather cheesed off when I hear (Qantas chief executive) Geoff Dixon say it's the shareholders that matter, and most of the maintenance on these Qantas aircraft is being done offshore, and what we're seeing here is the outcome of that," he said.


Your a LEGEND Mr Stark, couldn't have said it better myself.

Time to go for the knock out blow, they have done it to us so many times before. Time to say we want 5% (no more no less),abolition of all quotas and a level rise for everyone, on top of any rises due to people who are currently blocked by Quotas.

[Short_Circuit]

To add to the previous post;

b]"At the conclusion of this EBA, we, the engineers of QE, refuse to co-operate with the following managers DMM Supervisor and demand their immediate removal from their positions.

DC
MH
KM
DH

CY
MS

How's that sound ?

[crow17]

Hey Melb guys, keep us updated on your saga gown there.

The rest of Aust will back you 1000%

[Talkwrench]

Gday SC, I think you should add TG to that list, cause if you dont and the others go, he could be a front runner to replace MH. I can assure you, you do not want TG at the helm. Just review his history at QF thus far.

[Talkwrench]

If what your post says is true, I am dumbfounded! I cannot believe that MH has made, what is in effect, an allegation of unprotected industrial action against these members. All this one day before GD's meeting with the ALAEA/ACTU to try and sort out a solution 'in the interests of the long term future of all employees' (EX Sydney HM staff notwithstanding). I wonder if anyone directed MH to take this action against his staff or it was his decision alone? Unbelievable. I await the facts of the situation with anticipation.

[HARDNUT]

Well put short circuit. 5% , two levels for everyone and nil quotas. It will be on our terms now that G.D has put us through this.If you keep treating your workers badly eventually they will revolt. Dixon has underestimated us and the widespread support we have from fellow workers and the general public.History will remember Geoff Dixon ,not as the CEO that made massive profits ,but as the CEO that was too greedy and bought the airline to its knees because he wouldnt give employees what they deserve.

nice work Geoff!

[Red Baron]

Strike!

Strike!

Strike!

Strike!

[blubak]

Even though the environment to talk might not be perfect-if the offer is there,lets go with it.We are never going to make any progress if we dont at least hear what they have to say-lets be guided by our professional association.

[The Black Panther]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23793517-23349,00.html

Mr Dixon said yesterday that there would be no meetings with union representatives as long as the threat of industrial action hung over his airline.

"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"
"And you can quote me on that,"

See you Friday Geoff. If your bring the pie, we will bring the knife and fork.

[kotoyebe]

Can the Association please call Qantas today, and find out if the number 3 is included in any of di*kson's notes for the meeting tomorrow? If it does, cancel the meeting, then advise them that YOU won't negotiate with him until the number 5 appears in those notes.

Another week of this, and I can see managers slashing their wrists!

I had to work my clacker out last night, but enjoyed every minute of it. Every delay, overnight and cancellation has brought a smile to my face, although I feel sorry for the pax and frontline staff.

Di*kson, you underestimated your best resource. Your people.

[wanty]

From the Australian article.

"Soaring fuel costs will be a hot topic as the world's top airline executives meet today in Istanbul for the annual meeting of the International Air Transport Association. "


Wonder if Dicko's connecting flight to Istanbul will make it on time.:ok:

[Syd eng]

Doubt he is going to Istanbul as he has a meeting here tomorrow. Might be his choice for replacement going though.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks there is a meeting tomorrow. There may be one the day after, still trying to arrange. If am am sitting across the table from Senior Qantas managers, is there anything you guys want me to say on your behalf?

I may even print the best posting and read it out.

cheers

[Red Baron]

GD talks about not negoitating with the LAME's whilst there is industrial action in place.

What about the fact that QF has denied any LAME for any type of leave? I look at that as a form of industrial action, don't you?

I'm sure I read somewhere in QF (Human Factors) that QF are required to allow each QF employee with 4 weeks annual leave. That policy didn't speak of around 'operational requirements'!

[Red Baron]

Dear ALAEA Fed Sec



You would have to take every thread within this forum as every (apart from the trolls) message is worth there weight in gold!

[Newgen]

What about this one Fed Sec....

It's about time that some of your "amazing people" got in their kayaks and rowed off into the sunset

"change management".........you betcha!!

[Nudlaug]

What really pisses me off when this GD prick states that he won't negotiate with a gun pointed at his head, yet management hold the gun at our head every single EBA negotiation by delaying and stalling the proceedings by months, almost years and then threatening to cancel any backpay if we don't accept their crap offer on the table. How is that for a gun pointed at you! Happened every single time since i have been in this company.

Screw these lying management a**holes and make them suffer, i hope this goes on for a while yet until the fleet grinds to such a noisy halt that GD will not know what hit him, he'll keep spinning for 2 weeks after the huge slap in his face he is about to receive.

Although i feel REALLY sorry for all the frontline staff having to deal with this mess, with the (rightly so) infuriated passengers. And i would like to really thank all of our great colleagues by putting up with it and supporting us. So far all i have received is support, something that is truly astounding and i am proud to work alongside all those great people in Qantas, be it flight crew, cabin crew, check in, baggage handlers, cleaners.... every single one of them deserves our huge thanks.

THANK YOU! :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Dockie]

She denied the incident was related to industrial action but admitted the overtime ban was affecting operations. "We have experienced some delays and cancellation on our domestic network over the last few days," she said.
"These were a result of technical issues with our aircraft. However, the ALAEA has also implemented overtime bans and deplorable go-slow actions, which have also made an impact."

Is there any "Manager" in Qantas who does'nt lie?

[rudderless1]

Oil now falling $123 a barrel.

Leave, don't need it at the moment, having too much fun at work, might need a rest when its all over though.
Always sick leave for those necessary family times. :p


FOG

[The Black Panther]

Dear Mr Dixon,
The current industrial dispute is not unlike other industrial disputes whereby business owners undervalue the contribution of there workers. Qantas engineers have worked hard for our airline, many of us committing our working lives to aircraft engineering. Our average years of service compared to the average CEO time in position would be a multiple of four or five. Purely because of our long relationship with this industry we revere and value the outcomes for the travelling public and the reputation that propagates around the world for our iconic Australian company.

We continue to face challenges as you do. Our challenges are not always technical issues, we have faced many years of inadequate logistic support, lack of spares, seemingly excessive administration and accounting requirements. This may not always be through a lack of funds but just badly selected systems where we were not consulted by arrogant and inexperienced management. Lames tend to be there own worst enemy by fixing something if it's broken. This isn't always a flight control actuator, navigational software, or fluid leaks. This can be related to methods, tooling, procedural errors or logistics. We fix the problem and move on. If the problem occurs again we fix it again. During this dispute we are not fixing it, we are highlighting it.

While I am sure many of your staff including yourself work long hours consider the LAME who pulls on the wet weather gear and faces the elements at 3am arriving aircraft from Europe. The engineers who work in extreme temperatures both cold and hot. All the while working a seven day rotating roster that will see many of us miss a regular Easter long weekend with our families, having Christmas dinner with our children at 7pm being the first time we have seen them that day. The years roll on as a family grows up and we continue to work in an industry that can be very demanding yet rewarding.

Unfortunately due to factors beyond your control our standard of living is being eroded by ever increasing day to day costs of groceries, fuel, school fees, rates, electricity etc.

At the same time these costs have risen, we have contributed to the record profits produced by Qantas and your management. We have witnessed substantial remuneration increases to corporate management and have questioned the unequal treatment of your coal face workers. We do not have a history of industrial disputes and our relationship with Engineering management has been quite reasonable in previous times. Unfortunately the current management seems to regularly lie, disrespect and dismiss our claim for a fair and reasonable pay claim.

The dispute conditions has only restricted over-time and you may now begin to appreciate that many of us do not work a standard 40 hour week. We rearrange our personal lives to assist our workmates when fog causes disruptions, we stay behind 2-3 extra hours to finish an involved task, we work an extra day when operations require the aircraft earlier than initially planned. All that goodwill is now rescinded and you are seeing the effects first hand. The problems will only compound and all we are doing is not giving you our goodwill that we have done for our working lives.

Your reputation as a union thug is quite obvious and public momentum appears to be opposing your attitude. Our claim for 5% is not unreasonable and we ask you to reconsider the value you place upon us as dedicated engineers based on the productivity gains and profits we have contributed to. Just as the shareholder expects a fair and reasonable return so do your workers and you are failing on the latter.

[The Black Panther]

I have heard 6 engineers have been stood down in MEL.

They apparently refused to carry out work, for which they were not trained to do. Hopefully someone from MEL can elaborate.Fact or fiction?

[rudderless1]

Its a FACT!I believe it is 5 LAMEs. Murray had a disrupted sleep. Not sure if he got back to bed.:zzz:

[Bumpfoh]

6 LAME's (including the DMM) were ordered to conduct duties that they were not appropriately trained in and duely declined on safety grounds.

They were then informed that they were all to be docked the minimum 4 hours of pay which has been confirmed by HR.:ugh:

So much for management abiding by their own policies and adhereing to the OH&S act.

[Wobulator]

Black Panther - Great Post!

[Konehead]

Wasn't something like this meant to be the trigger for some form of PIA retaliation?

[The Black Panther]

6 LAME's (including the DMM) were ordered to conduct duties that they were not appropriately trained in and duely declined on safety grounds.

They were then informed that they were all to be docked the minimum 4 hours of pay which has been confirmed by HR.Could this be the equivalent of the assassination of the Archduke Francis Ferdinand, on June 28, 1914.

Pack up your tools and take them home.
"Houston, we have a problem"

[wanty]

Black Panther - Great Post!


Agreed, terrific post panther.

[wanty]

I'm not sure why everyone thinks there is a meeting tomorrow. There may be one the day after, still trying to arrange. If am am sitting across the table from Senior Qantas managers, is there anything you guys want me to say on your behalf?

I may even print the best posting and read it out.

cheers


I want him and his grovalers to make a very LOUD and PUBLIC retraction to his famous comments about management contributions compared to that of unions.

Then I want him to lick the soles of every Lame he had stood down, together with a meaningfull apology to them and thier families.:E

[Anulus Filler]

Black Panther- post 1932 well written. Sums it up nicely.

ALAEA Fed Sec.... Could you reach over the table and slap him in the face for me? Thank you in advance.:ok:

[Hardworker]

Fed Sec - Might it be prudent to ask what accountability Management will be held for this continued destruction of QF Engineering?
Managers
DC
MH
RH
DM
KM

All should be held accountable for all of this as well as the Mc Cormack incident where QF Management and QRSM did nothing to stop it....
Appreciate all the effort and hours you guys are doing at the ALAEA, I am sure it isnt easy having to listen to the continued saga of the price of oil, welcome to the real world!

[Short_Circuit]

Kevin Brown,

You released a letter to all staff reiterating that Bulling & Harassment
would not be tolerated from LAMEs and Management alike.

You said that termination of employment would befall anyone who engaged in it.

Well, Kevin Brown, in the last 4 days we have heard of numerous such
events all coming from David Cox, his Managers DMM & Supervisors directed toward LAMEs.

They have stood over LAMEs trying to force them to sign for unserviceable aircraft,
carry out duties they are not trained for and generally put Schedule before Safety.

These are serious breaches of Company Policy and Cardinal Rules & CASA Regs.

LAMEs have been stood down for minor lapses such as placing a witches hat in the wrong spot..

When will we see these managers pay the price of their indiscretions?

Fed Sec

You might ask Dixon why there is one rule for them and another for us.

I would like you to ask for my back pay to be doubled to make up for lost super contributions.

[delta 4]

Seems to me that we are all saavy to the idea of the swiss cheese model on how accidents occur............thanks to Qf training.........ah the irony :E

Bet our glorious management didn't realise it also applies equally to their poor decision making, obese, unweildy and inflexible PPM's etc, etc on how well the company can run.........seems all the swiss cheese holes are lining up nicely for management to have an accident brought on by their ineptitude:yuk:
:D:D:D:D:D

BTW, I wonder if they are fighting over the fiddle while Qf burns?

D4

[warpspeed]

What a bunch of Primadonnas
If its so bad at Qantas leave and see how hard you have to work in other companies. :{

[aveng]

Fed Sec
If Dixon says anything about fuel prices just ask Geoff when was the last time he personally filled up his car. Lames are abundantly aware of the cost of things because we use personal credit cards not company ones to pay for things!

[Anulus Filler]

Warpspeed.

What a bunch of Primadonnas
If its so bad at Qantas leave and see how hard you have to work in other companies.

This is not about leaving Qantas. If we all hated the big Q I could safetly say that we would have left a long time ago (and that's across all professions). We actually enjoy our work, but the management(especially the current bunch of turkeys) leave a bad taste in our mouths.

Now the avarage LAME has endured countless set backs at work and more often than not with stupid decisions made by ignorant managers. Goodwill is what often covered it up. What you are seeing now is no goodwill. It is exactly what this management have given us for 7 years. Now we're returning the favour.

I personally wouldn't leave Qantas unless they paid me out. They can fling all the sh!t they can at me but I won't be walking through the door without a redundancy cheque in my hand. I suggest every LAME who has considered leaving recently stay put and enjoy the ride. Don't give them the satisfaction. We're working with their train set and their rules. I go to work and know that every single delay that I cause is simply because I work to a set of rules and procedures that Qantas has created. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for the delays going through the roof....let them figure it out.

[spanner90]

How about "leaking" some of the passionate letters from Q LAMEs to the media. Some balance to the reporting is waaay overdue.

Methinks the Q media team are working LOTS of overtime!:}

Spanner90

[Short_Circuit]

From SMH.com.au
http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/qantas-hit-by-long-delays/2008/06/04/1212258833814.html
The airline conceded the industrial dispute with its licensed aircraft maintenance engineers was starting to have an impact. Overtime bans were biting despite signs of a potential breakthrough in wage talks.

Starting to have an impact?

Better saying that, than admitting the outsourced maintenance is adding to the 24 hour delays.


Oh well, seems the crack is widening.

[Negative Feedback]

Whenever you feel your resolve waning watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3DXllgy2A

and if it is all getting you down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUXxbI1ZVB4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUXxbI1ZVB4&feature=related)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just briefly all,

Nobody has been stood down. Just threatened with loss of pay.

Good news is that the members did not act illegally by arriving an aircraft without an appropriately licenced aircraft engineer present. Aircraft stood off the bay unchocked until appropriately licenced LAMEs commenced shift at 0400.

[The Black Panther]

Nobody has been stood down. Just threatened with loss of pay. How close we came........

If the Cuban Missile Crisis was the most dangerous passage of the Cold War, the most dangerous moment of the Cuban Missile Crisis was the evening of Saturday, 27 October 1962, when the resolution of the crisis—war or peace—appeared to hang in the balance. While Soviet ships had not attempted to break the U.S naval blockade of Cuba, Soviet nuclear missile bases remained on the island and were rapidly becoming operational, and pressure on President Kennedy to order an air strike or invasion was mounting, especially after an American l -2 reconnaissance plane was shot down over Cuba that Saturday afternoon and its pilot killed. Hopes that a satisfactory resolution to the crisis could be reached between Washington and Moscow had dimmed, moreover, when a letter from Soviet leader Nikita S. Khrushchev arrived Saturday morning demanding that the United States agree to remove its Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for a Soviet removal of missiles from Cuba. The letter struck U.S. officials as an ominous hardening of the Soviet position from the previous day's letter from Khrushchev, which had omitted any mention of American missiles in Turkey but had instead implied that Washington's pledge not to invade Cuba would be sufficient to obviate the need for Soviet nuclear protection of Castro's revolution.

[Anulus Filler]

Ingore Previous Post.

Continue please gentlemen.:ok:

[The Black Panther]

A curious site to watch the joy people have in delaying tens of thousands of people and costing the Australian economy a ton of money. But then again, only people who were delayed and support your union are allowed to comment - right?As human being with a heart my hand goes out to you Frozo.
This site may help your aliment.

http://www.wikihow.com/Improve-Your-Sense-of-Humor

[Anulus Filler]

Take Note Of Previous Post

Continue please gentlemen.:ouch:

[spangled1]

the threats just keep coming, No four hours pay for you, No payrise for you, No A380 training for you, No B787 contract for you, NO SOUP FOR YOU.........nazi's.:yuk:

[stiffnut]

PAF
As has been said umpteen times before, the lames are only banning overtime. A company as big as Qantas should not be relying on staff working overtime to keep its flights operating, this proves that there is something seriously wrong with its operation. I was also led to believe that overtime is completely voluntary, so as far as i'm concerned the customer inconvenience lies squarely on the shoulders of Qantas mismanagement, but i'm sure you wont agree as from all your previous posts you just get a kick out of baiting people, you must have a pretty poor life if this is all you can do.

[Take five]

Qantas CEO Needs Seachange

02 Jun 2008 | The Australian Financial Review

Qantas lurches from bad news story to bad news story, either of its own telling or as recounted by so many of its weary and disappointed customers ("Qantas axes routes, jobs on fuel pain", May 29).
I cannot identify a chief executive officer who is focused less on the needs of his customers and staff and more on creating shareholder and executive wealth than Geoff Dixon.
In this he ignores the dictums that, in a service industry, customers need constant attention, and staff need to be treated in the same way as you would want them to treat your customers.
Constant cost cutting and “Chicken Little” speeches, lead to corporate anorexia and disengaged staff, never to sustainable high performance.
On the upside, having weekly contact with Qantas staff, I am continually amazed at the latent goodwill and commitment that so many of these people have for their organisation and brand.
While Insurance Australia Group may have been overled and undermanaged, Qantas suffers from relative overmanagement and a leadership void as Dixon fails to enlist his people in the task of working through the group’s challenges.
As the Qantas board approaches the choice of its next CEO, we can only hope it recognises the need for a seachange in the role of, and contribution from, Dixon’s successor.
Roger R. Collins
Gerroa NSW

[Anulus Filler]

Qantas CEO Needs Seachange

It was quite amusing that this article was deleted on the Qantas intranet. But then again what do you expect when the place is run by nazis.

[stiffnut]

Exactly PAF i would have no problem with the company employing more people, we need them as we are understaffed and the workload is getting heavier all the time. Before the pia we were working flat out and struggling to get the aircraft out on time, sometimes managing and sometimes not, between staff being seconded to bull**** positions and guys leaving without being replaced it's become really hard to produce a quality product on time.

[spanner90]

Many moons ago, I was part of a crew responsible for packing a "tupperware" helicopter into a herc, that was to fly to a holiday island closer to Jakarta than Sydney...

We worked late into the night for a couple of days (I think we had six hours off between shifts, ie 16 on, 6 off, 16 on).

Anyway, nobody had a problem, in fact we felt proud that we were doing something for the operation. We all knew that we may not get time in lieu, or even anything more than the personal satisfaction of getting the job done.

The real difference though, was that this was an unusual event, and we weren't expected to do it every day. We also had confidence that our supervisors would go in to bat for us to get some time off, or at least a sqn bbq.

This leads me to "Management 101 for Dummies" look after you subordinates. It doesn't matter how far below you they are.

For Q to be in this position suggests to me that there has been a culture of "us and them" for a long time. The managers are ALL replaceable, so are the LAMEs, but they take a lot longer, and more money to replace.

If your supervisor has sold you out once, you can expect it to happen every time!

"Some people learn by experience, it hurts less to learn by somebody else's experience":}

[stiffnut]

On the same money that we get paid, that's fair isn't it?

[The Black Panther]

I'd suggest that if the airline hired more people (who have chosen not to join a union) to do the work that was previously done with overtime - most would have a problem and abuse them.No problem at all Frozo. Just another collective of people with common status. Obviously those who elect not to join a union would prefer to bargain in the mangers office every year for a pay rise or perhaps they wouldn't. I personally prefer the collective arrangement where our collective funds are more efficient.

You seem to be anti-collective. Understand it is arguably part of our genetic code to form social groups. Here are a few others.
One World
The Australian Business Council
The Housing Industry Association
The Australian Medical Association
Rotary Australia
The ALAEA
The Sutherland Shires readers club
Australian Banker Association

Just groups of people with commonality of some kind. If some of those group have issues with stakeholders perhaps other parts of the community will suffer from temporary drop in service which could be banks, builders, doctors. Perhaps a service industry such as Air travel. However our constitution gives everyone the right to lawfully protest unfair or unjust treatment until agreement is reached. It happens between a man and a wife and employers and employee. Disagreement, protest, mediation, resolve. All part of the democratic process.

Be proud of yourself. You are a good person. If you want to go solo so be it, but don't restrict the rights of people because they are causing you temporary problems of a canceled flights or extensive delays. This is not the first industrial dispute and a it won't be the last but it is an important part of democracy.

My grandfather always said if you don't have something good or nice to say about someone don't. I have failed to find a supporting contribution to this forum thread from you. You may find support but starting a thread "Supporters of non Union workers for Qantas" here on Pprune but I think it would be best for all if you avoided this thread. Of course it is you choice, just as we have a choice of join a union. You have a choice not to join one and that's what I am suggesting about this thread. (Somehow I think you will hang around for just something to do, I am right?)

You want to be an individual, migrate to Myanmar. No strikes there, they remove the dissidents. The engineers would be gone by now and PAFs would just cleaning up the mess.

[Dr Itzfukt]

In relation to post #1905

The second last line reads - "Qantas declined to comment on whether the toilets were sabotaged."

How dare that useless old fart and his loyal band of pole smokers even think that professional engineers such as the guys at QF would contemplate sabotage.
FOG - you rot in hell now ya hear!


:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Short_Circuit]

This message is hidden because Pass-A-Frozo is on your ignore list.

[kotoyebe]

PAF said:
No, Your Mr Fed Sec likes to fix wage prices

PAF, what on earth are you on about? I have actually given you the benefit of the doubt with your views, but now I am convinced that you just goad people into reaction as some sort of perverse pleasure.

Have you not heard your idol, di*kson, recently state that "the board has signed off on a 3% wage rise for everyone(except himself and his cronies)? Well, it's not a recent policy, it has been around for nearly a decade, despite all the Qantas unions attempts to change it. So WHO has been fixing wages? I'm surprised he hasn't had the board sign off on a 3% wage CUT for everyone( except for himself and his cronies). I suppose he doesn't have any balls!

PAF said:
That's fine. I have a problem with "Stop work meetings", and anything and everything beyond that. That said, you should have no problem with the Airline hiring more staff to cover your overtime ban.

So only management are aloud to have "meetings" You know, the type where people get together and have dialogue? Actually have some sort of interaction. So you expect the next board meeting to be conducted by email?

The union offered to keep a skeleton staff on, but the company rejected that offer, and forced them into the stop work meeting. The union took a huge gamble taking that meeting, with a real fear of a lock out.

But the lockout didn't happen because why? Your solution would have been to have di*kson bring in an alternative workforce willing to work for "whatever the employee is happy to take" Guess what? He has been looking for that alternative workforce for months, and can't find enough of them at DOUBLE what the current LAME's are earning. And he is quibbling about 2%? And you still think he is reasonable?

If you can't see from a customer's point of view...I believe you are a Platinum FF.. nor from the many threads and posts on PPrune, the very real shortcomings of the management of Qantas, and how they are systematically destroying the company, then you really are just a sh*t stirrer. The company still gets passengers where they need to go (generally), despite of management, not because of them.

[amstrang]

PAF
I have watched your comments on this site for some time now and I, for one, am fed up seeing your ramblings on here!

If you are not directly involved in this dispute please leave us alone.
We do not care for or want to listen to your comments.

The Union Members have spoken as one.
We have no room for singular views, nor do we seek them.


I suggest you send any further, directly to;

G Dixon
c/o Qantas
Mascot
NSW
2020

Not too sure he'll reply though.
Goodbye PAF.

[A/P F/D]

"I disagree with harming tens of thousands of people and the Australian economy to prove that point".

But Geoff Dixon is doing the same - and yet you support him?

[kotoyebe]

PAF said:
I disagree with harming tens of thousands of people and the Australian economy to prove that point.

Why do you keep saying that? It has been pointed out to you numerous times that it's the MANAGEMENT harming your tens of thousands of people and the economy. All the employees are doing is following the company's procedures, and not doing any overtime. What part of "overtime is voluntary in Australia", do you not understand?

In effect the company has been bludging on it's employees goodwill for the best part of a decade. And all of a sudden some of it's employees are doing only what they are paid to do, their "contract", and you continually accuse them of destroying the economy!:ugh:

[NAS1801]

Listen to me again guys ADD PAF TO YOUR IGNORE LIST. Stop wasting valuable time and energy aguing with this annoying troll! Imagine how frustrated he will be if nobody reacts because nobody is listening?

[REALITY]

It has been confirmed that 5 of our brothers were docked 4 hrs of pay for refusing to park a 747-300 aircraft.

The facts are as follows:

International lame's usually handle these movements.
They finished their shift at 0130.
Qf do not roster international Lame's between 0130 & 0400.
The aircraft arrived approx 0200.
The 5 lame's who were docked are not licenced on 747-300 as they are from the domestic operation.
They also have no famil or any other training or experience on that type.
The DMM on duty was one of the 5.
There is no procedure or LAP that directs an untrained engineer how to carry out a B747-300 arrival.
The aircraft remained short of the parked position unchocked untill an appropriately trained lame arrived at 0400 with crew still on board aircraft.
The local manager is adamant that lame's must do whatever he tells them even if it is against procedures.
OHS reps pursued the issue during the day to no avail.

Please be aware that the tarmac is even more dangerous than usual as the stress and anxiety of our brothers is increased whilst the threat of loss of income may come at any time when you are asked to carry out something you are not trained to do.:=

Be careful :ok:

[The Black Panther]

I'm anti - collusion. Collusion: Pronunciation[kuh-loo-zhuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] 1.a secret agreement, esp. for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.

I think it is quite publicly stated we seek 5%. You obviously don't understand the difference between collective and collusion.

All of the above are not allowed to set prices. The difference is that unions are based on collusion and set fixed prices. Does that mean that you advocate business price fixing?I would suggest many business collectives do set prices. One of the common price setting practices is recommended retail price. Have you ever noticed RRP. REIQ is another example that set commission rates for it members, oops another collective. Banks have similar charges for foreign ATM usage. How fascinating? Just a coincidence I suppose.

I'm not sure what section of the constitution explicitly permits someone to clock on for 4 hours, but not work and draw a wage?Obviously you are blue collar background who believes work is only labor.
I have a friend who works in security and she complains she does nothing all day. Just walks around and looks.
Without disrespecting our Fireman you could draw a conclusion that they don't work in between fires using your logic. Look outside the square PAF.

So why do you post regarding QANTAS?I post here to be critical of Qantas. I do not hold any personal judgment of the people concerned merely there professional decisions.
Just as I would have a beer with you. We would agree to disagree and move on. I am confused why you still remain here where you have no support. Start that threads and finds some buddies!

Just as a Dragon supporter doesn't hang out at the Roosters bar. Do you understand what I am trying to convey to you PAF?

Myanmar = Freedom - that is what you suggestI am very impressed you are aware of the government issues in that country I was beginning to lose faith.

Anyway I will apologise now if I fail to take part in any more banter as I do feel I am wasting valuable key strokes that should be used toward something I feel more passionate about. Nice talking with you PAF and I hope you get to where you want to go.

[Bumpfoh]

the threat of loss of income may come at any time when you are asked to carry out something you are not trained to do.

which is a clear breach of the OH&S act and the QE safety policy whether QE management think so or not.:ugh:

Time to get the VWA involved me thinks and let them decide via an anal probe, BYO lube.:E

[The Black Panther]

Qantas now the bane of jokes.
On Spicks and Specks tonight one of the competitors made a joke about "being as irregular as Qantas."

People are starting to take notice.

Keep it up lads.

[fatcat69]

That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard of.

May those who command people to breach cardinal rules all fall by the sword!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the issue the Assoc should take all the way to the supreme court if required.

It is a sad reflection on self inflected desperation the sad team who run a professional operation have fallen so they can protect themselves from their bad decisions.

Jump on this issue Steve P

[Bumpfoh]

MEL

That is the most pathetic thing I have ever heard of.
May those who command people to breach cardinal rules all fall by the sword!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the issue the Assoc should take all the way to the supreme court if required.
It is a sad reflection on self inflected desperation the sad team who run a professional operation have fallen so they can protect themselves from their bad decisions.

Jump on this issue Steve P

Rest assured this will be jumped on with extreme vigour!:ok:

[numbskull]

PAF

Fact 1: The only people found guilty of collusion are QF management.
Fact 2: The ALAEA stop work meeting was at the insistence of GD not the union(presumably so he had the opportunity to lock them out if he wished)
Fact 3: You are a loser!!!

[REALITY]

What is our Association going to do about our 5 brothers in Mel?:hmm:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Our brothers will have our support.

I won't be posting the way here. Qantas can find out when they open an envelope and read the contents at a time of our choosing.

[jakethemuss]

Hopefully not answer that question on this forum, Mr. Oldmeadow.

Fed Sec, good to see you are on the ball. You beat me by a minute.

[wanty]

People should work for the wages they personally agree to work for.

Are you for real, our Enterprise BARGAINING Agreement expired 19 months ago.

Bargaining, to haggle, to negotiate. The opposite to "BEING DICTATED TO"

Can you read ??? Expired - lapsed - ran out - no longer valid.

We have "no longer" agreed to work for the crumbs Dickson offers.

Hence, a NEW eba is currently underway. Gee pal, thought you were at

least up to speed with that one.

[tnfixer]

If the Melb. issue escalates how are we going to be advised?. What should we be reading/listening to? Keep us up to date.

[MR WOBBLES]

If you dont know the lines of communication by now brother

Hint
Its not true till its on an ALAEA notice
all info there is verified before issue

If you are a member they are emailed to you

If you are not you find out in the fullness of time

[murrayatwell]

Fire and brimstone is on the way Qantas managers, and consultants, be aware, very aware, oh, and stay up. THE TRUTH IS OUT and its gathering speed. :mad:

And just for PAF.

Fire and brimstone is a term used, sometimes pejoratively, to describe a motif in Christian preaching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon) which uses vivid descriptions of judgment, and the damnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation) to Hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell) of sinners forever to encourage repentance out of fear of divine wrath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrath) and punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment).:=

[D.P. Gumby]

I cannot identify a chief executive officer who is focused less on the needs of his customers and staff and more on creating shareholder and executive wealth than Geoff Dixon.
In this he ignores the dictums that, in a service industry, customers need constant attention, and staff need to be treated in the same way as you would want them to treat your customers.
Constant cost cutting and “Chicken Little” speeches, lead to corporate anorexia and disengaged staff, never to sustainable high performance.It sums everything we're fighting for up in three short sentences.

Well said :ok:

Roger R. Collins
Gerroa NSW

[Collando]

Pride comes before a fall they say, although there are those who would rather bring every thing around them down (or "take it to the wire") before admitting they have erred.

What will you do?

Can you not see what a house of cards your management has created ,where a business starts to decend into chaos by the refusal of staff to work on their days off?

If you think this is PIA, you aint seen nothing yet.

This protested industrial action is as much about the respect due to the Lames who achieve against the odds and in spite of, management In QE(who are too scared to be seen on the floor by the way) but willing to take credit for the organisation and accomplishments of those concientious and hardworking crews who get the aircraft out and make them look good.

You may not be in a popularity contest but your attitude toward your staff is contemptable to say the least. There is a groundswell of distaste across QANTAS wide (not just QE)at your surly comments and petulant behaviour, Your actions have cascaded down to other managers who also fail to keep comments above the line.You do not practice what your amazing people preach. Remember blame, justify ,deny. all below the line behaviors
We may respect your business acumin but you have failed to invest in your best assets.Your staff (I'll spell it out for you )

5% is fair and reasonable for all QF staff in these times.

Its not coming out of your pocket.

or is it?

[Nepotisim]

Fuel costs weigh heavily but the cloud over Qantas has a silver lining


Elizabeth Knight
June 5, 2008

Geoff Dixon has been in Istanbul this week with other airline executives from around the globe swapping stories on the financial chaos that has engulfed the industry, thanks to the skyrocketing price of fuel.

Back in Australia Qantas passengers have been dealing with a different challenge - getting on flights that have been seriously delayed or simply cancelled.

This week some economy passengers who had been waiting more than 24 hours for their flight to London took matters into their own hands and barged into the business class lounge in protest against being offered tea in foam cups as a refreshment.

Security staff sorted this situation out but these extreme circumstances have to bring into question whether the years of operational cost-cutting may be stretching the airline's resources too thin.

The situation is being exacerbated by the engineers' union, which is seeking a 5 per cent pay rise and is using overtime bans as its negotiating weapon.

What is not clear is whether this industrial action is the largestcause of the airline schedule mayhem or whether there is an underlying problem in the airline.

The consensus appears to be that the overtime bans are not the primary culprit but have pushed the airline over the edge.

It makes for a particularly difficult juggle for Dixon. The cost of fuel has put unprecedented pressure on Qantas to take more costs out of the system but there is a view that the airline is currently so stretched that it can't afford any disruption from any part of the workforce.

The official word from the airline executive last night was that the troubles over the past fewweeks were all about the engineers and its on-time record was normally better than its local competitor's and good by international standards.

Qantas has the option of taking more of its maintenance overseas and will dangle this threat over the engineers.

The warring parties are holding more talks tomorrow.

To the extent that Qantas is otherwise stretched, the fuel price might perversely work in itsfavour.

Last week it said it would cut capacity by dropping some routes and retiring aircraft early because the rising fuel price had made some routes uneconomic.

The falling demand that the industry is experiencing will also allow Qantas and other airlines to further cut capacity and/or try to increase fares.

If investors take the view that the current fuel price is a short-term aberration then this is a buying opportunity.

But if one believes that the longer-term fuel price could be $US150 to $US200 a barrel then airlines are operating with an economic model that is not particularly attractive.

In particular, discount airlines around the world will be under pressure. While no-frills services run on the smell of an oily rag the price of that fuel is the same as it is for a full-service airline.

If fares are increased to compensate for rising fuel costs, the budget airlines, which have expanded the market to customers for whom air travel had been out of reach, will feel demand fall sharply.

The fuel price is not an external shock like SARS or the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. It could well result in a permanent shift in the economics of the industry.

The newer, more fuel-efficient planes that have been ordered will help mitigate cost increases but, in the current environment, aircraft will need to be taken out of the system more rapidly than new ones are introduced.

So we can expect Dixon to continue to play hardball with the engineers and we should expect an announcement tomorrow of more cuts to capacity and routes, both domestic and international.

In a couple of months Dixon will need to front investors with a full-year result for the last time. It's already locked in.

It's the 2009 financial year that is causing some concern among investors and there is wild variation among analysts about what may ultimately be delivered.

[PTTSwitch]

OK, this is getting ridiculous.....Has anyone read the latest ACS update from MH?

This is what will get the company on track again.....a few more Managers, (sarcasim..) Nice one. :D:ok:

Maybe thats the big secret plan, 'lets make everyone a manager then we can get them all to resign from the union and then run it like a Dictatorship'.....PLEASE! :ugh:

Just remember, keep safe, work to the book, and read the QEPM.

[Sunfish]

Elizabeth Knight, what a pearl!

The situation is being exacerbated by the engineers' union, which is seeking a 5 per cent pay rise and is using overtime bans as its negotiating weapon.

What is not clear is whether this industrial action is the largest cause of the airline schedule mayhem or whether there is an underlying problem in the airline.

The consensus appears to be that the overtime bans are not the primary culprit but have pushed the airline over the edge.


Ho ho ho! There is an underlying problem with Qantas called Geoff Dixon, the Board and the "Management Team" (what an oxymoron that is!). It's called Industrial psychopathy, or perhaps Corporate Narcissm. Just remember that the Board and the Management of Qantas do everything and are responsible for everything that is good.

It makes for a particularly difficult juggle for Dixon. The cost of fuel has put unprecedented pressure on Qantas to take more costs out of the system but there is a view that the airline is currently so stretched that it can't afford any disruption from any part of the workforce.

...and that view is called "reality". Unfortunately Dixon has his own reality which is different from "real" reality.....really.

Qantas has the option of taking more of its maintenance overseas and will dangle this threat over the engineers.


I think the engineers are past caring about this. They already know that the threat is empty because even if they accepted the 3% on offer, Qantas will still outsource overseas if they believe it is in their financial interest.

Last week it said it would cut capacity by dropping some routes and retiring aircraft early because the rising fuel price had made some routes uneconomic.

The falling demand that the industry is experiencing will also allow Qantas and other airlines to further cut capacity and/or try to increase fares.

If investors take the view that the current fuel price is a short-term aberration then this is a buying opportunity.

You are spot on there sister, think of the money Qantas could be making if it was run by a competent management team that engaged with their staff. Best time to buy will be when the network is in chaos, there is a major shareholder revolt and just before Dixon leaves or is removed.

In particular, discount airlines around the world will be under pressure. While no-frills services run on the smell of an oily rag the price of that fuel is the same as it is for a full-service airline.

If fares are increased to compensate for rising fuel costs, the budget airlines, which have expanded the market to customers for whom air travel had been out of reach, will feel demand fall sharply.


It's not rocket science is it? When air travel gets more expensive, Bogans won't fly. Those that do will expect higher levels of service, comfort and reliability that Qantas now cannot afford to provide, even if it's management wanted to.

The newer, more fuel-efficient planes that have been ordered will help mitigate cost increases but, in the current environment, aircraft will need to be taken out of the system more rapidly than new ones are introduced.


They won't mitigate fuel cost increases in the short term at all. That's Board level wishful thinking. Ever heard of a learning curve? Perhaps Six years out the stretched models will provide some tangible savings.

By the way, how do you repair a forklift hole in a composite fuselage?


So we can expect Dixon to continue to play hardball with the engineers and we should expect an announcement tomorrow of more cuts to capacity and routes, both domestic and international.

In a couple of months Dixon will need to front investors with a full-year result for the last time. It's already locked in.

It's the 2009 financial year that is causing some concern among investors and there is wild variation among analysts about what may ultimately be delivered.

Dixon will play hardball with you because he likes to. He enjoys it. It gives him the limelight - centre stage. It feeds his ego, your pain and suffering is nectar to him. He is a narcissist.

As for the full year result, I already told you it was locked in.

As for 2009, why would Dixon really care? Once he leaves the joint, you will never hear from him again. He will be off looking for greener pastures.

BTW: Don't blame PAF for his inflexible stupidity, he doesn't know any better. Of the three worst managers I've ever had, two were ex RAAF engineering officers who exhibited similar traits, not saying all RAAF are bad, but there seems to a lot of the rigid Yes/No, Black/White, "respect my authoritaaay" types.

[The Black Panther]

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=146&ContentID=76994

A Perth businessman, who asked not to be named, said the airline was a joke after Tuesday’s scheduled 4.15pm Perth to Sydney flight did not leave until 2.30am yesterday, arriving in Sydney just before 9am.

Staff handed out ice-cream and opened doors to provide relief from the heat, but passengers were eventually asked to return to the waiting area.

The businessman described the debacle as a “dark day for Qantas” and blamed it on the airline’s recent pay dispute with the maintenance union.Come on GD, your statement regard customers and employees is finally hitting home. Time to invest in customer service and employee conditions else it's gulg gulg gulg.....

[Short_Circuit]

A Qantas spokeswoman said: “There will be occasions where technical issues lead to flight delays and this is regrettable, but we will never compromise on safety.”

Bloody lier's!! :=

True when it comes to LAMEs, not true from management. Just read what has been going on recently.
management ordering LAMEs to certify unserviceable aircraft and ignoring OH&S safe working procedures
AND scrapping Policy Manual procedures because it did not suit them during our PIA etc not to mention "bowl of rice" maintenance.

Stop the Bull:mad:T

Take 10 (%)

[acslame]

SP
IF Dixon talks sh*t then tell him we want 10%
or we will up the pain.
I am so sick of having to deal with these
bloody liars.
Next time they lie lets take them to civil court.

[Red Baron]

Guys, Guys, Guys.

You are all doing such a great job during this dispute as standing as one. :ok:

Now please do yourselves a favour and continue to stand as one here in PPrune. Ignore the coments of PAF and continue reporting on the real stuff and not by responding to this ignorant individual that has no business here with you and your issues. When 'it' posts a thread just ignore 'it' and move onto more matters of interest.

Keep up the good work! :ok:

[Bolty McBolt]

FOG

While I totally agree with the sentiments above, replacing GD would not necessarily change the relationship we currently have with engineering management. Surely if GD goes someone of the same ilk will replace him as you have to be a prick to join the "snouts in trough" CEO matey club.

Lets focus on masseurs M and appropriate second name.
These two are the architects of the mess we now live and work in.
These are the people we need see gone if management ever wishes to engage the guys on the floor.

Why on earth should they stay? What have they achieved during their tenure.
Masses amount of red tape and no efficiencies, Look at the latest blunder regarding engine runs, The policy was written by the fat man due to a engine tail pipe fire incident during an ignition check NOT an engine run. So he overhauls the engine run policy at huge cost to the engineering budget. Talk about not having a grip on what goes on. The PPM towing procedure was installed a huge cost due a taxi and marshalling incident in JFK. The ensuing towing training from the least experienced and qualified trainers on how to tow an aircraft was more than irritating to most and insulting to some.

On time departures have dropped due to this pairs mismanagement. Managers (MACS) all YES men have been installed with no operational experience and it shows, Stupid PPM practices that take away any flexibility for the people on front end to work around problems.
Senior Lames and supervisors promoted due to a certificate rather than leadership ability shown or ability to actually do the job. A place where experience is a must to save time lost via management of costs through sensible troubleshooting.

What were they thinking when an ex stoner from survey blade bench and wannabe LAME was elevated to his position while the other was tech services in charge of curtains and carpets. I will concede well done to both of them in reaching this level and the remuneration package that goes with the positions but there is no excuse to the damage you have caused the operation and staff relationship.
If they had done nothing "on time performance" would have stayed the same but they intervened in places you knew naught and look at the mess. :D
The new level of management recently invented to insulate upper management from the front end of the operation was only required due to the current MACS in place had no idea on how to manage this facet of the business. More inefficiencies at huge cost but at least I can stop dumbing down my F500 reports.

So FOG stands but lets hope for same for the H and C

PS. PAF keep it coming. I enjoy your blatherings always amuzing. :ok:

[capt.cynical]

Your post reminds me of an old saying.:)

Those that can DO.:ok:

Those that can't TEACH:ooh:.

Those that can't do either MANAGE.:ugh:

[The Black Panther]

Qantas struggles with delays

Scott Rochfort

June 5, 2008 - 1:50PM

Another unhappy load of Qantas passengers left Sydney for Tokyo 13 hours late this morning and another flight bound for Singapore remains grounded, fuelling concerns the carrier's international operations on the verge of meltdown.

The airline conceded a "fuel pump defect'' in the Airbus 330 led to the delay of flight QF21 to Tokyo, which was originally scheduled to leave at 9.55 last night and eventually departed at 11.21 this morning.

"It was a fuel pump defect and by the time they fixed it the curfew had passed,'' a Qantas spokesman told the Herald.

Among the passengers on the flight were the Australian A Rugby team bound for a tour of Japan.

Despite already suffering delays of up to 24 hours for flights to Los Angeles, Bangkok and London this week, Qantas said the Tokyo flight delay was not related to the current low-level industrial action being taken by its engineers.

One passenger on the Tokyo flight, John Lindsay, said he was given two taxi dockets and told to go home and call the airline at 7am.

"I called them up at 7 and was told the flight was leaving at 10 o'clock. It's the shortest turnaround in history,'' Mr Lindsay said.

Mr Lindsay said this gave him no time to get to the airport and check-in for the flight.

"This is the respect I'm shown for the loyalty I've shown Qantas with their bogus frequent flyer scheme,'' he said.

... "Likewise, it's another airline for me next time unfortunately,'' said Dr Gillespie.
Sydney Morning Herald
http://business.smh.com.au/qantas-struggles-with-delays-20080605-2m4t.html#




"Houston, we have more problems"

[capt.cynical]

From Crikey.com:D


Ben Sandilands writes:


This week’s stand offs between angry passengers and Qantas has seen air travel cross the same threshold of ugliness it did in America , the UK and much of Europe years ago.
It is close to war between some carriers and their customers abroad, with the loathing that exists between British Airways and the mob scenes of its top tier frequent flyer members throwing their cards in disgust on the floor of Heathrow Airport indicative of what happens when incompetence becomes entrenched in service delivery.

But now an Australian airline has started using security and police to protect itself from outraged punters who don’t get what they paid for, which is punctuality, civility and cleanliness.

The invasion of a Qantas Club lounge at Sydney’s international terminal on Monday by passengers who had been completely screwed by a cumulative 24-hour delay on a flight to London really isn’t the amusing incident it was reported as being in some quarters.

It was a rupture of trust that is very dangerous for Qantas, and a clear warning to Virgin Blue and Tiger.

That incident and others that followed this week arise from the inability of Qantas to maintain its fleet in reliable working order.

Pre the lounge invasion Qantas and Jetstar have dumped jetloads of hundreds of passengers at a time in terminals, even outside locked terminals, in Sydney, Perth, Hobart and Honolulu among others as aircraft broke down and staff dithered over the arrangements or obligations needed to accommodate them.

Passengers have been left sleeping on bus shed benches in some cases.

Qantas no longer has enough spare parts nor qualified maintenance staff on duty, to perform the necessary pre-flight or turnaround checks, or carry out what in a full service carrier would be otherwise routine running repairs or rectifications.

It goes beyond the current overtime bans by maintenance workers too. Most of the screw ups in Qantas and Jetstar flights this year have happened before the bans were applied.

The forced withdrawal from service of four aged 747s and several seriously unreliable senior 767s just announced by Qantas will make things much worse. These jets aren’t worth the heavy maintenance they need to remain safe and legal, but the replacements Qantas thought it was getting through a large order of Boeing "Dreamliners" isn’t going to happen this year, as planned, or even next year, as more recently promised by the maker, and possibly not until 2011. The Dudliner hasn’t even flown yet. It is still in pieces in Seattle, being wired together.

Yet the maintenance union claims Qantas gutted its engineering resources in Australia in anticipation of outsourcing even more of the work overseas as it introduces new wide bodied jets including the giant Airbus A380s and the Dreamliners and now seems unable to cope with their late deliveries.

Whatever management and the unions say about their respective positions is lost on alienated customers.

The brand is trashing itself as management finds itself trapped by aircraft makers that can’t deliver, and maintenance arrangements that can’t cope.
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[Sunfish]

Bolty:

Not all CEO's are bastards, well not me anyway, but seriously a highly successful CEO is a mate of mine and she has had some very difficult and high profile jobs over time.

Her view of what her job as CEO is simple: "I'm there to create the conditions so that those who work for me can succeed at what they do." And of course she fed that philosophy right through management to the shop floor.

That view is a corollary of the "inverted pyramid" view of management, in which the CEO is at the point of the pyramid all right, but the pyramid is inverted so he is at the bottom. The CEO can't succeed unless everybody all the way to the coal face succeeds.

Another way of looking at things is the idea that it's management's job to insulate its workforce from uncertainty, in other words, to provide a stable, risk free, healthy(in a cultural sense) and predictable work environment for those at the coal face - while management deals with all the uncertainty and risk.

Of course the closer you are to the CEO, the more uncertainty and risk you are supposed to be dealing with, and the farther out you should be looking in time.

However this view of leadership is completely at variance with the little I know about QF management.

In my opinion, and I'm not a shrink, Marg and Geoff are raging narcissists, all the symptoms appear to be there. Mind you, I am also sure that they are highly intelligent, hard working, and like all narcissists, very entertaining and attractive people to be around when it suits them to adopt that persona.

They have most probably filled the Board and senior management with similar folk because narcissists are very good at sucking up, and they also like being sucked up to themselves. Trouble is, narcissists don't do empathy, and they have a number of other traits that make them problematic in management that I won't go into.

So does QF management believe that there job is to make it possible for people to succeed at the coal face? Obviously not. Their complete and total disdain for the mainline says it all, what sort of @sshole calls their cash generator a "legacy airline" and tells their staff they have no future? That is simply setting things up for failure on multiple levels.

What sort of person tells the media that the success of Qantas is due solely to his and management's efforts and derides a union that was built and paid for by his employees, and, by implication, denies them any recognition or any contribution to QF's success? Does Mr. Dixon think that he is a CEO at the base of an inverted Pyramid? No effing way!

Then there is the question of management insulating their staff from uncertainty and providing a stable, risk free, predictable and mentally healthy work environment where people can succeed at what they do. Is Qantas doing that? No effing way! What about the "legacy airline" crack? What about all the sniping and threatening to send work overseas. What about the constant doom and gloom scenarios being painted daily by management, deliberately destabilising its workforce? That's just manipulative dumbness, do you really want a workforce that is punch drunk over worrying about it's future? Shear stupidity in the long term.

Of course the f*ckwits in management and their sycophantic analysts and commentators think it's smart to screw over your staff, "to keep costs down and restructure the industry", while producing record profits, and on the surface it does. But I was taught (or absorbed it from McKinsey's or some other consultant) that when you have to take hard and difficult measures to restructure a business then you either do it "quick and dirty" (as in mass issue of "don't come Monday" letters") and then get back to relative normal, or you do it slow and clean with lots of VR, lots of consultation, feedback sessions, roadmaps, etc. The alternative "slow and dirty" which is what QF is doing, is just plain dumb because it causes maximum disruption to peoples working efficiency, and maximises pain and suffering.

To put it another way, if you are going to have to bash heads, slash and burn, then you do it quickly at the beginning of your tenure, and then get on with business. I've done it once to a little company, it was highly unpleasant (30% of the staff had to go), but it was necessary and we got over it quickly. I almost get the feeling that QF Management likes causing pain, the maximum possible for as long as possible (like an 18 month EBA negotiation), it demonstrates their power, which is what narcissists like.

Then there is the question of time horizons. If managers are paid annual bonuses, yet they are supposed to be thinking of the company's future five to ten years from now, what are they going to concentrate on? Furthermore, if you then inject a little distrust and competitiveness at a senior management level, the idea of even a five year bonus goes out the window, for companies have been known to dismiss managers just before they collect the shares or big bonuses - a certain yacht racing computer company owner is renowned for doing this to his senior staff.

So is it a good idea to give annual bonuses to people making decisions on aircraft fleet composition that are going to set large chunks of the company's future business strategy in stone for twenty years? I don't think so. There are better ways, like a five year rolling bonus plan for seniormanagers and an annual bonus for people on the shop floor and middle management - HAY-MSL will build one for you, the Japanese call it "The thirteenth month".

As for pet peeves, stupid and laborious procedures - that's just middle management trying to avoid being blamed by senior management when something eventually goes wrong. Your "lean Sigma" ain't going to succeed unless your CEO embraces it and forces it through all management levels, starting with his own office, before foisting it on you. To put it another way, you need to "walk the talk". Back in the late 1980's Motorola developed this so much into an art form that when any of them made a presentation or ran a meeting, they handed out feedback forms afterwards.

Anyway if it were me in the chair, I'd be saying "sure you can have your 5%, just show me where I can save it elsewhere, and if you can demonstrate real savings of another 10%, I'll split it with you 50/50 and give you another 5%".

[Ngineer]

Capt Cynical, A very different Qantas to the one we used to know.

[The Black Panther]

Well done Sunny

[Ngineer]

Heard there was fog in Instanbul today. Can anyone confirm?

[blubak]

Dont think anyone would have any problem in giving something back to the company in return for a fair/decent and much needed pay rise.1 must remember that we have never welched on any deal in the past and it is only now under constant threats and bullying that we have decided to say,ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
If the management think we should(as i am sure they do) give something back in return well let them be big and man enough to say what it is.
They should remember that as been proven in the past if they are honest and up front we will always keep our side of the bargain.

[Nepotisim]

Sunfish, you have gotten too close to the Sun. You are on fire.:ok:

[Bolty McBolt]

Sunny I agree with your post completely
Not all CEO's are bastards, well not me anyway, .

This may very well be true, actually I hope it's true.
I know I sound cynical when I speak of "snouts in the trough" CEO matey club but the rumoured replacements for GD are definetly of the same character due to the high profile position so I do not hold out much hope at this level.
The change required to make the airline run is at the levels I have mentioned before.
CEOs and Board can pontificate all they like while the front end does what it needs to make the day to day happen smoothly with happy customers whom want to return to QF for the same service and expectations met.

As for pet peeves, stupid and laborious procedures - that's just middle management trying to avoid being blamed by senior management when something eventually goes wrong

Amen to that

[The Black Panther]

1500

Copyright © 2007 Warner Bros. Pictures

Based on the epic graphic novel by Frank Miller, 1500 is a ferocious retelling of the ancient Battle of Thermopylae in which King Leonidas (Steve Purvinas) and 1500 Lames fought to the death against Xerxes (Geoff Dixon) and his massive Management army. Facing insurmountable odds, their valor and sacrifice inspire all Engineers to unite.

[Ragnar Benson]

Great post Sunfish.


After 20 plus years with the big Q heres what I think it stands for

Queers And Nasty Tight Arse Sycophants

[indamiddle]

guys, guys, guys (and girls), what are you doing? all these delays and cancellations are going to screw up some manager or managers bonus for this year. if this continues into july next years bonus will be in danger as well. please have consideration for their plight, how will they be able to put their children through those expensive private schools?

[Konehead]

1500

Copyright © 2007 Warner Bros. Pictures

Based on the epic graphic novel by Frank Miller, 1500 is a ferocious retelling of the ancient Battle of Thermopylae in which King Leonidas (Steve Purvinas) and 1500 Lames fought to the death against Xerxes (Geoff Dixon) and his massive Management army. Facing insurmountable odds, their valor and sacrifice inspire all Engineers to unite.

Oh dear, what a terrible analogy. Dude, the Spartans of Thermopylae were betrayed by one of their own and attacked from the rear. They lost and died to a man! Sure, their sacrifice helped in the eventual defeat of the Persians, but I certainly dont want to sacrifice myself so everyone else can get a payrise. Not when it's us, and our very sympathetic aircraft that are winning this one, albeit with some unfortunate collateral casualties.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "how will they be able to put their children through those expensive private schools?"

------------

Or pay off their pregnant secretaries.:ooh:

[youwishyouknew]

In relation to the 5 LAME's in Melbourne being stood down, there was almost another 1. While all this was going on with MH on the phone, there was a JetConnect 737 ex H/maint test flight (I think) that returned to the hangar and as parked by the SL/II. MH somehow knew of this and tried to hang the guy who parked it by not adhering to Qantas PPM and docking him 4 hours pay. Another one of our brothers was in the office and kindly but firmly told MH that he was under the full supervision of himself who had the JetConnect approval and the SL/II was acting as an AME.

Good one MH, gotta love that one backfiring on ya mate.

Keep up the good work fellas...we can bring this so called management team to a grinding halt soon!

[cranker]

From a point of overview I can tell you PIA is working, A checks are starting to hurt. Cox was very active in allocations today. Was he looking at getting A checks done OS?? Stay above the line and stick to the PM.

[The Black Panther]

Dude, the Spartans of Thermopylae were betrayed by one of their own and attacked from the rear. They lost and died to a man! Sure, their sacrifice helped in the eventual defeat of the Persians, but I certainly dont want to sacrifice myself so everyone else can get a payrise.:uhoh: ooops! Best if I know the full story next time. Especially about being attacked from rear. Sounds uncomfortable.

[Angle of Attack]

The lack of coal-face staff at every level is showing badly this last week, on top of your great work in work to rule!! The fleet was almost crumbling prior to the action, now it shows how understaffed engineering and for that case all front line jobs were suffering! I have travelled domestically a few times in this last week and I can sense a change, the anger is shifting towards an incompetent management, not the REAL workers! Yeah I agree who cares about PAF, all that matters is as a member of a union you CAN! haha! Oh Gold sweet gold! I dont even have to argue because basically without workers it STOPS! without companies we would stilll survive! haha! PAF think about it sonny we CAN! and thats all that matters WE run the companies not academics and managers! hehe! :ok::ok::ok:

[Hasherucf]

Dude, the Spartans of Thermopylae were betrayed by one of their own and attacked from the rear. They lost and died to a man! Sure, their sacrifice helped in the eventual defeat of the Persians, but I certainly dont want to sacrifice myself so everyone else can get a payrise. :uhoh: ooops! Best if I know the full story next time. Especially about being attacked from rear. Sounds uncomfortable.


I would liken it more to Hitler’s (Geoffs) last days. Held up in his bunker screaming at his Generals (Management) and having grand delusions of imaginary army's (of LAME's) while trying to hold back the army of 2.5 million soldiers at his doorstep.

Let’s hope he takes early retirement just like Adolf...... I don’t mean exactly like Adolf , just to come out of his bunker waving the white flag.

Seems the Luftwaffe and QANTAS have something in common (Niether will be flying soon)

[northsteyne]

20 years Ragnar, It's the magic figure for looking at redundancy.:D
Just snag the **** out of the aircraft before you go.:ok:

[Short_Circuit]

Fed Sec

Another issue to throw at Dicko is the removal of the cap on redundancy payments.

If one has put in 30 / 40 years of faithful service, every year of that loyalty should count toward renumeration.

[Socket]

Several years ago I quit the ALAEA in disgust. The absolutely pussy representation was too much to take. I am still not real happy with the attention GA gets but I am very impressed with the way the current executive is handling this dispute. So impressed I am considering re-applying for membership.

I will wait however to see exactly what action is taken to support the guys penalized for doing as the rules dictate and the demands made in regard to the manager who tried to bully them into breaking the rules and then punished them for standing up for themselves.

I'd like to see nothing less than immediate termination of the manager involved and possible civil action against him personally. This goes to the heart of the whole dispute. Q management seem willing to do anything to achieve their ends, including breaking their own rules and punishing YOU if you don't follow suit, or punishing you anyway if you do break the rules. An honest person cannot win.

Anyway, rant over, good luck guys.:D

[Short_Circuit]

Socket
It is a new team at the ALAEA.
At Qantas we are proud of our new representation.
They have restored our dignity.
No longer will you feel left out in the cold.
Come and join the strength of unity.

[The Black Panther]

Socket wrote:
Several years ago I quit the ALAEA in disgust. The absolutely pussy representation was too much to take.True Socket. The past leaderships were spineless. The last one was almost comical when we had to go back and vote again until we got the result the company wanted.

You showed pride to leave. This leadership has shook off the militant image that the scaremongers used during the election and SP is being very sensible and professional in his strategic moves. Wouldn't expect to see our leaders walking out of Tattersall's but so far there chess moves would make Bobby Fischer proud.

[acslame]

If DC is looking to send these A checks overseas
then let him and black ban them when
they get back I say!!!!We usually have to fix
all the hold items when they come home with so
let them just sit there.
Just another winner QE decision
They still don't get it do they.
SP
I for one am ready to walk for a few days.
I have had enough of these bloody liars!
I want 10% or 5%with Dc & mh's heads. let dicko choose!!!
Maintain the rage boys

[sickofqf]

They can only send an A Check o/s if they can keep the aircraft schedule stable..............which so far they have gotten close to achieving......more disinformation from a troll I suspect............

If they could send the A Checks o/s ( where only the A check bit gets done....which is bugger all of a SYD a-check) they would have done it 2 weeks ago.........heck, the c checks coming out of HKG are basket cases because they don't send any spares up....because we don't have any......

And an A Check here and there won't fix the departure rates....today is a spectacular 49% on time........and dropping.......

BYE BYE Cock-sie
BYE BYE Fat C
BYE BYE hangers on

PS, QF175 to LAX is today's candidate for the daily overnight failure to launch........another article in the Tele tomorrow........

[max1]

PAF
Re your post 1972, I'd go and have a bit of a study on the AMA if I were you. If you want to find the most powerful professional union in Australia, this group would come close. Also Pharmacists, whilst you are at it.
Also, I'm still waiting on your thoughts on the events that led up to the American War of Independence, and your advice to the American Founding Fathers when they felt they were being dudded by their colonial masters.
Good luck to the engineers, you have community support, and I doubt PAF has even flown during this dispute.

[vortsa]

One issue that is holding them back from sending Scheduled work OS is that you have to have appropriately licensed staff to certify. Its ok to use an MA to sign off defects but No No No not allowed any further then that.

[Collando]

Exerpts from article from UK newspaper that is not worried about losing advertising deals.



The Guardian 4 June, 2008

QANTAS: Flying mean and nasty skies

Qantas further said that if it is not happy with the $1.5 billion "efficiency" program it has unleashed then more radical measures would be imposed. Workforce cuts may not be achieved exclusively through redundancies. Some of the airline’s functions would have to be moved offshore.

Unions rightly smell a rat. The talk of moving operations offshore is clearly directed at aircraft engineers who last week held stopwork meetings in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. Members of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) needed to consider what to do about Qantas’ intransigence towards their modest 5 percent per annum pay claim.

In response to the latest action by engineers Qantas Chief Executive Geoff Dixon was suggesting a weird moral equivalence existed between the actions of workers and their bosses in the long-running dispute:

Qantas is using present legitimate concerns in the community about rising fuel prices to lock in some long-term gains for shareholders and their lavishly overpaid management elite.

The company has wanted to move major aircraft maintenance offshore for some time and get it done on the cheap. The threat to even higher profits posed by rising fuel prices is being used to strengthen their hand. The company has kept its Jetstar pilots on lower pay rates than their Qantas colleagues in the face of union demands for pay justice. What better way to quieten them down than an influx of guest worker pilots and crew? "We are in a global industry and we should be able to source a global talent pool," Jetstar CEO Alan Joyce told The Australian Financial Review, forgetting for a moment that a shortage of local pilots was supposed to be the sole factor behind the move.

Qantas has shocked the public with the strength of its language during the dispute with its engineers and revealed its ruthless drive for maximum profits — a drive it shares with the other owners of capital in our unjust socio-economic system.

Says it all really

Game of hardball still on!!!

[wanty]

Socket
It is a new team at the ALAEA.
At Qantas we are proud of our new representation.
They have restored our dignity.
No longer will you feel left out in the cold.
Come and join the strength of unity.

Hey short circuit, I too am stoked the way the NEW executive have restored unity among the ranks and I too am now proud to be in the association for the first time in years and years.

Question though, you sure you haven't done a stint in the states on one of those religious evangilist shows, praise the lord amen brothers, lol:ok:

[wanty]

One issue that is holding them back from sending Scheduled work OS is that you have to have appropriately licensed staff to certify. Its ok to use an MA to sign off defects but No No No not allowed any further then that.


They no longer have the option of sending work overseas. lol, apparently all the overseas workers are now here in Australia signed up on contracts with Newport aviation ready to take our place if we walk.:ok:

[Millet Fanger]

I think most of you punters are ignorant to the A/C maintenance financial savvy that the present QE management has. Let's do a quick quiz to see if I'm correct! Which is the most advantageous financial option?

A) Fly an empty 747 (Let's call it EBX) to Hong Kong for a SA check (fuel at record prices). Check to take 6 days to complete with an ATP required to fly empty A/C back to base. Airfreight spare parts or pay inflated prices to MRO because you sold off your own spare parts store. Ground A/C for 3 days after returning while you make it serviceable / clear 20 odd hold items. Leave full equipped heavy maintenance hangar empty at base. Lose flexibility of A/C availability.

B) Carry out SA check using that empty hangar. Max 3 days - A/C serviceable. No fuel / flying costs.

Now most would think it's a no-brainer, B). Wrong. QE management will tell you that A) is the correct answer. Why? Because you have failed to take into account the bonus received for closing down the world class maintenance facility. Sure, costs in the future will be astronomical. Sure you will lose scheduling flexibility. Don't forget though, you have the bonus in the bank, and, what the heck, you probably won't be around in the future. Besides, if you screw your workforce you might be able to save a bit of that lost money.

[SeldomFixit]

Just out of interest - what do other carriers in Australia do as far as EBA's go ? Are they on individual agreements ? Do they pay better or worse than QF ? What size EBA increment would be considered an industry standard nowadays across the Aussie Engineering landscape ? :confused:

[cpiom]

Neg Feedback, yes I have re-read your previous posts and fail to see any relevance or in actual fact, intelligence, worthy of replying to.
As I have previuosly said we the passangers don't care who causes us inconvenience, when we are told it is the mechanics, as far as we are concerned it is you! In the last couple of weeks that is the same announcement that comes over the PA over and over again.
In a previous post I said I supported you with some reservation and you have now lost that support, well after the name calling and one sided, un-intelligent debate offered by you and your militant mates I am sure you have lost further support. Case in point, the same minority of people write against their employer constantly.

PS. CPIOM's exist on Boeings might want to look them up, although maybe not the same acronym.

[The Mr Fixit]

No longer the Spineless Jellfish association

Strong Leadership, Strong Membership

Give him hell today boys and take no prisoners

PS : CPIOM - one letter more and your acronym could be myopic in other words welcome back Wingers

[PIOT Bord]

10 Qantas domestic flights departing from Sydney were cancelled yesterday. Two possible reasons for that. They either didn't have enough serviceable aircraft, or their yield management planning went berserk. If it's the former, management have messed up - still flying plane beyond their used by date or a lack of personnel to fix them. If it's the latter, demand for flights has deteriorated at an amazing rate - an announcement should be made to the market. Which is it Geoff? The silence is deafening!

[The Black Panther]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/worst-fears-realised-as-three-flights-grounded/2008/06/05/1212259007033.html
The passengers of QF21 were not alone in their frustration. Yesterday a Qantas flight to Singapore was grounded, a flight from Brisbane to Los Angeles was delayed for 13 hours and a Sydney to Auckland service was cancelled.
It has heightened fears Qantas's international operations are on the verge of total breakdown.
Smh.com.au was inundated with emails from furious Qantas passengers, many of whom vowed to tear up their frequent flyer cards.
"Bring on Emirates, bring on Singapore Airlines - while Qantas's fat-cat executives give themselves another pay-rise, we get shafted," one customer wrote.
The worsening delays have coincided with the dispute between Qantas management and the company's engineers. Industry sources told the Herald that overtime bans imposed by the engineers are the straw which has broken the airline's very fragile back.
"Oh Murray, what have we done?"
"It doesn't look good does it David. Let's not spoil our trip worrying about those naughty engineers. Do you have the Emirates tickets for Monte Carlo. Margo called earlier, she is meeting us there"
'Where's Geoff?"
"He's at a meeting today, I think he's catching BA again latter tonight"

[Syd eng]

Is the meeting on for today?
Or has Dixon again tried to play a bluff card and has nothing in his hand. Lets push him till he tries to bluff with an all in gamble.

[Dockie]

Melbourne heavy and workshops had a meeting on wednesday night with 3 "managers" MB, PD and DV. I do not respect or trust these "managers" and everytime they speak I assume that they are lying, and I couldn't believe it they are still threatening us. Whatever question was asked, the answer was ' it depends on the outcome of the LAME's EBA' If the number 3 is mentioned at the meeting today its time to take 2.

[Sunfish]

' it depends on the outcome of the LAME's EBA'

I will guarantee you that it doesn't depend on the outcome of the EBA. QF will have made up it's mind already. These matters are not arranged overnight, nor are they reversed overnight.

If they outsource overseas, then it's time for an "Open Skies" policy immediately.

I'm sick of this QF management crap about sourcing from Global Markets, and then when Global Airlines want a slice of the Australian action, Qantas pretends it's as Australian as a Koala and asks for Government protection.

You can't have it both ways Mr. Dixon, if YOU get to choose to "source from global markets", then YOUR FORMER PASSENGERS get to choose to source their travel needs from global airlines.

Open the skies.

[Short_Circuit]

There is a good chance Dicko will walk away again.

He has delayed our EBA as long as he has to align with the predicted spike

in world oil price. He has timed it right, can cry poor and continue to

stall us further.


All the other unions about to engage in their EBA NOgotiations will

hit the same wall we have and will further fuel Dickos poor cry.


The build up of Jetstar is powering ahead and in a few years will overtake

Qantas and then BINGO! they have achieved what they had set out to do.

Qantas goes broke, Government can't stop it. The Qantas Sale Act is dead

& gooone. When that happens, the LLC Jetstar transitions to QANTAS MK2.

No Sales Act to worry about and then move QANTAS offshore!

Someone must stop this now. It will take Kevin Rudd to step in to stop the

farce that is Dixon & the Board of Qantas.

[blubak]

Does anyone know if the meeting is on today?
Bit of bad news for qf maybe-price of oil down 10% from all time high of week or so back.

[acslame]

I cannot believe that while all this is going
on our management is MIA!
Is this the wait it out tactic dicko was talking about
or do they really have no idea what to do?
The latter I think.
I know I have said this before, however
I really believe that we now need to ramp it up.
When they won't talk simply increase the pain.
Time for another 4hr stop work meeting, this
time during peak period and all ports.
Don't give QF the time to get organized.
We need to keep on the offensive.
5% + DC and MH's heads

[delta 4]

Sunfish & Short Circuit have nailed it perfectly.

Why do you think QF management are deliberately making war; it's so they have an excuse to blame the ALAEA and the LAME'S for having to send all heavy (and maybe some base) maint off shore.

Ask yourselves how long does it take to get a slot in an off shore MRO for a fleet of aircraft? I'll bet they have the slots booked in months if not years ago.

Once that was confirmed it was time to provoke the LAMES and man the trenches. When the blow happens we'll all look like sad sacks and blame ourselves for what they did.

That's Bullsh*t, but they'll look smug in front of the media with their hands on the hearts (well where their heart would be IF the had one) and lie straight faced to the media, public and qf staff.

How many more reasons do you need to support the ALAEA to fight them now?

D4

[Big Spanner]

Its now or never for our 5%. we cant roll over now.

We didnt go to all this trouble for a misreable 3%. What an insult.

We would Look and Feel like fools to give up now especially in light of the

double standards of our direct management.

We will never get a better chance than now.

We have the right leadership this time. Meeting them face to face gives me

confidence in them.:ok:

[The Black Panther]

The problem for management is the swiss cheese theory is looking more like the pretzel theory. This scenario has all the ingredients for disaster. I hope someone in charge soon appreciates the true risks at stake here and puts passenger safety ahead of shareholder profits. When Qantas was publicly listed we did not change our charter.

Not working overtime should not cause this mayhem in any normal business. Minor disruptions but not potential meltdown.

We need a new focus, a new attitude, perhaps a new CEO. This man is failing customers, employees and the community while his is overtly and privately biased towards the uptown clientèle.

[Sunfish]

Just so you get the bigger picture, and off topic, but the Far North Queensland Tourism industry today is shaking in its boots now that QF has cancelled various services from FNQ to Japan. They are talking about something like 100,000 less visitors from Japan.

That may give you some insight into why I have been such a critic of Qantas since joining Pprune - there is a gigantic "knock on effect" from cancelling/ rationing air services to regions - which the Queensland tourist industry is about to experience.

It's also why I believe if Qantas doesn't want to service the Japan FNQ route, the slots should be given to an overseas airline that will....and it will still have a net positive effect on Australian jobs if it happened.

[Bucaneer1979]

It still amuses me that the duty planners at syd base are SMSing for overtime. 3 messages in 2 days. They are desperate!!!:D

[blackbandit]

IF you're not happy, leave. If its such a terrible job, with terrible conditions just walk, there is full employment in Aust at the moment. The problem is most engineering staff know what a good "lurk", they are onto.

As I said, just leave.... and for gods sake STOP WHINGING!!

Oh, and if the customers werent happy, why are they still flying Qantas???

[vortsa]

Sunfish and Short Circuit you guys are so right, big companies like Qf and the like don't go into an industrial dispute with their belts undone, waiting to have their pants pulled down. They have strategies, and their managers and industrial team aren't really the fools that they are appearing to be. It's like a good fishermen who knows what bait to use and when to jiggle it. What the ALAEA has to be prepared for is exactly as you guys have stated, ARE WE WALKING INTO A TRAP.

1. Is this just an excuse to send more work overseas? ( Malaysia and Singapore are actively recruiting engineers as we speak, and the numbers they are seeking is in the hundreds. Why would this be?????)

2. Is this just an excuse to cut more regional services? ( No money to be made there just a service that they are more or less obliged to operate but if they can cut them and blame the ALAEA no negative effect on the Airline,)

4. Is it a reason to consolidate flights and fill them making them more profitable, give more to JetStar and just keep the super profit makers.

5. Maybe it's to drag down the share value so as to open the door to another take over? (this time I think shareholders might be willing to dump this troublesome portfolilo)

3. Is it a stand as they say to squash a union, so to warn those that are about to start negotiations ( Be very very careful)

So what to do???

You need to get into their heads and find something that they don't believe you will do and then do it. They know the LAME'S are conservative and don't really have the stomach for an all out stoppage, they never have and only posture and threaten. So what to do ?????


STRIKE


Pull their pants down now and don't give them the chance to move to their next phase, catch them napping. The big fish that strikes hard and fast usually catches the fisherman who waits for a gentle nibble. This is the fish that usually gets away, rip the rod and reel out of their hand.

[blackbandit]

In 89 we called it a dispute. You think you whingers would have learned from that. NOT being a scab, but i would have preferred my children to grow up in australia.

careful with the "S" word.

[The Black Panther]

IF you're not happy, leave. If its such a terrible job, with terrible conditions just walk, there is full employment in Aust at the moment. The problem is most engineering staff know what a good "lurk", they are onto.

As I said, just leave.... and for gods sake STOP WHINGING!!
Use your own philosphy Bandit.
If you're not happy with our banter in this thread just leave. and for gods sake STOP POSTING!!

[vortsa]

Blackbandit, checked you out... If you were a pilot in 89 why do you only have 2000 hrs.?

I smell a RAT

[Glide_on]

blackbandit

jobs in pacific

Any one know of anywhere in the pacific available for relatively low time pilot,,(2000hrs)

I have just got my girlfriend pregnant and was trying to find a country where I wont have to pay child support.


Like, take this guy seriously???!!! (Reference his kids brought up in Oz)

[Short_Circuit]

Date:6/6/2008Author:Robert FennerSource:The Age --- Page: onlineAnalysts at JPMorgan Chase have warned that Virgin Blue will have to raise its air fares by at least 10% in 2008 if the airline is to survive. They say the airline will not survive if jet fuel stays at the current high price and Virgin Blue cannot increase its air fares. Virgin Blue is 62% owned by Toll Holdings.Its rival, Qantas, earlier cut routes and reduced its fleet size as the cost of jet fuel skyrocketed. Airlines across the globe are suffering from the high cost of jet fuel. Analysts at UBS have said that Virgin Blue is currently losing money and it faces a lot of competition

So, Qantas will follow with fare increases and we can have the 5% we deserve.

[The Black Panther]

Interesting to see if the 50 odds engineers on "VR Row" get the call.

Yet again GD has the doom and gloom he needs to call for wages restraint and the grand fathering of QF employees that will be replaced by
a) LLC conditions (Jet* build up)
b) Foreign local labour
and addition to c) Levies and reduction in service.

All the while the ASX announcements remain silent of a profit downgrade.
$1.5 Billion will be delivered to the institutions and his supporters once again.

I think we need to sit tight until we see what happens to oil post Olympics.

[Annulus Filler]

If all the doom and gloom, why doesn't Dixon downgrade his profit forecast? Things mustn't be that bad. I suspect his next years forecast may top 2bn even with current fuel prices going north. Surely his sustainable future program forecasted fuel prices were going to go that way anyway. Reality will set in when I see the profit moving south. Time will tell.

[blubak]

E-mail from assoc has been sent to all members,contents seem very fair and to the point,company says it has problems to face-well so do we all!
They have asked for our help before and got it-im sure they will ask again and of course being the professionals we are,we will agree.
HOWEVER,this time they will have to show they are above board and are prepared to show their respect for us by providing us with a FAIR EBA-that is something which addresses our day to day problems such as escalating fuel costs(WE ARE NOT EXEMPT FROM THEM) and lack of a pay rise for more than 2 yrs now.LETS REMAIN POSITIVEand follow what our association are saying.

[chemical alli]

Just recieved the latest A.L.A.E.A notice. What is this back to negotiating in good faith ? There is no more good faith.For every day this eba is drawn out, Engineers lives and morgages suffer, Along with lost earnings on back pay.Keep the hits coming higher duties bans immediate. Five of our brothers have been stood down, Next week 8hr rosters nation wide.81% didnt vote yes for good faith.

[acslame]

Gents,
I know I am starting to sound like a broken record
but I strongly disagree with not escalating.
I have just read the ALAEA notice posted today regarding
our EBA and I feel that based on past experience we
cannot deal with QF management in "good faith".
Every time we have we have gotten smashed.
All we are doing is giving them time to get organized
to beat us.
Act now and keep the momentum. Do not let QF dictate
the time table for negotiations to us. You just don't know
what these people have up their sleeves.
Don't give them more time to hire strikebreakers,
Don't give them more time to outsource.
Don't give them time to alter schedules.
Hit them hard now.
Don't give Dixon room to manouver, He is just
too dangerous
Maintain the rage!!!!!

[Short_Circuit]

You be careful young Stephen, read every word in any document they present.
Think about how it could be misconstrued.

I do not want to hear the words, "but we meant this, not that.

They have done it for 30 years.

I don't trust them. :=

[chemical alli]

How about a full page ad in all the papers for frequent fliers to march with the lames in two weeks on corporate qcc.

[NAS1801]

IF you're not happy, leave.
This is not purely about 5% Blackbandit. It's about the destruction of an airline that many of us have dedicated our whole working lives to.

Do us a favor and leave this thread.

[Short_Circuit]

How about a full page ad in all the papers for frequent fliers to march with the lames in two weeks on corporate qcc.


I suggest a few more invasions of the Qantas Club by disgruntled pax to express their anger at Dicko.

[Short_Circuit]

Why did I bother looking :rolleyes:


This message is hidden because Pass-A-Frozo is back on your ignore list again.


SCHAIRBUS said

QF planning went into meltdown today over possible compliance breaches, 767 fleet is having serious issues.
Tuesday is expected to be crunch day when many planes could be grounded what a mess!

Any word on the stuff up, another Ansett?

[Blerter93]

This has probably been mentioned before and I missed it, why aren't we having national 4 hour stop work meetings? That would bring the network to a standstill and QF would not be able to bring enough scabs to work.

Also guys, don't reply to anything PAF says or even acknowledge his posts. He obviously has no life other than baiting hard working, professional LAMEs after a fair deal for their families. KEEP THE FAITH - PPM is our bible too.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Be patient brothers. We won't win this from the grass.


didn't vote yes for good faith

You didn't have to. It is a legal requirement we must meet at all times or our bargaining period could be cancelled.

This is not about bravado, it is about moving towards our objectives one step at a time. Please don't profess moves that would have us trip up only to fall flat on our faces. Next time come along to the meetings, listen in and get with he program.

[chemical alli]

my concern is the longer we wait the more divided we might become. At the moment the troops are holding fast,but if an extremely long winded battle ensures ,We may just get bogged down like Naploean at Waterloo.dont wait for the winter rains.I fully support the A.l.A.E.A,but surely even SP must be getting jack of this one more meeting business.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

SP would love for this to be resolved with a good result for LAMEs yesterday. I would love my phone to stop ringing from 0600 to midnight every day. It would make my life so much easier but that is not what this is about. Every LAME will feel some pain in order to obtain the ultimate gain. Some will hurt more than others and yes management will try and wear our members out. That doesn't mean we must rush in and make foolish moves, this is the real trap. We will play his game by our terms, not theirs.

Prepare to be patient. Then be patient.

[upsidefront]

It's been said before, but I will say it again.

To all the ALAEA exec

Thanks for your efforts and time.

Keep up the good work.

Love not doing ot and spending time with family and friends. (now that they don't do ot either!! :} )

[sickofqf]

Don't worry about us becoming divided by a long campaign.
As long as our common enemy continues to hurl lies and abuse it just makes us more steadfast every day.

One guy I work with who hasn't really been "into" this action is slowly becoming as steadfast as the rest........the disgraceful lack of respect and constant patronising and threats exhibited, particularly by DC, MH, & KM is losing this battle for QF....big time.

The best thing QF could do if they wanted to divide and conquer would be to sack all three of them pronto and actually start to charm and woo the LAMEs.....


hint hint.......:D:D:D:D:D

Good work SP. It sounds like Dick-son has eaten a morsel or two of humble pie and has retreated to bake another whilst selecting which managers to p-prune...........

Either that or they're taking some time-out to sharpen their suicide daggers.....because if they don't deal with us pronto (ie, pay up) they will be needing them when the instos come calling..........

Trust me, the instos will not be happy when they see their frequent flyer stock market float wrecked by all the members tearing up their cards........

....and it does happen....ask British Airways!!!

[employes perspective]

it looks like management are on the ropes,time to start tweaking the claims of the EBA UP. i don't think 5% will cut it any more,how about rolling in that pay freeze that we had to cop for 18 months post 911,all good will should now be gone,oh yeah and one for the men and women from H245 ,how about i request/phonecall from Qantas management to return you back to the fold because it is apparent they cannot longer cope with the work loads with the current number of LAME's employed

SMH
Worst fears realised as three flights grounded
Paul Bibby
June 6, 2008




WHEN John Lindsay arrived at Sydney Airport last night he was not optimistic that his flight would leave on time - in fact he feared the plane might never get off the tarmac.
The company director was one of a number of passengers put through a day-long game of musical chairs on Wednesday, as QF21 to Tokyo was delayed, delayed again, and then cancelled entirely.
"When we got there they said: 'There's a small technical problem, it'll be a short delay - we're just waiting for the engineers,"' Mr Lindsay, 46, said. "It was hours later when we eventually got on the plane. Then about 30 minutes after that they said: 'Sorry, the engineers need to do something which requires you to get off the plane, it'll just be a few minutes."'
Thirty minutes later they were told the flight had missed its curfew window and had been cancelled.
The passengers of QF21 were not alone in their frustration. Yesterday a Qantas flight to Singapore was grounded, a flight from Brisbane to Los Angeles was delayed for 13 hours and a Sydney to Auckland service was cancelled.
It has heightened fears Qantas's international operations are on the verge of total breakdown.
Smh.com.au was inundated with emails from furious Qantas passengers, many of whom vowed to tear up their frequent flyer cards.
"Bring on Emirates, bring on Singapore Airlines - while Qantas's fat-cat executives give themselves another pay-rise, we get shafted," one customer wrote.
The worsening delays have coincided with the dispute between Qantas management and the company's engineers. Industry sources told the Herald that overtime bans imposed by the engineers are the straw which has broken the airline's very fragile back.

[sickofqf]

Not much point bringingthe guys back....rumour early last week was that the reason 245 is being cleared out is JHAS have leased it.

Hey boys, you can come back to 245 with a better employer on better wages.........and do your old jobs!!!

[Anulus Filler]

Qantas used to have 33000 people working for it. Now it has 33000 people working against it !! Is it another ANSETT in the making?? Oh well, at least the the executives got the most out of it's carcass:}

[division1]

I get the feeling management is pushing the boundaries of their own
harassment policy, what right could QF have to demand lames work in a
foreign country under the threat of loss of pay if he refuses.
It should be an interesting day on the BNE ramp tomorrow.
These bullying tactics could add to the already high stress levels and push
one into making a poor decision, or worse, a technical error.
Major human factor implications with the increasing bully boy tactics.

[Ultralights]

it appears to me that all the current delays and cancellations, disgruntle pax etc, is all the cause of severe miss management! it has nothing to do with the current industrial action! just make sure the public knows that!

management has done more damage to the company than industrial action ever could! industrial action usually causes upset pax they whinge for a bit, then go on their way know it will all back to normal soon, whereas what happening now is totally destroying customer loyalty, as disgruntled pax know that the delays situation is caused by lack of staff, lack off staff respect for the company etc, something that will take a VERY long time to repair! and the pax WILL choose another airline and not look back.

[ozbiggles]

PAF
I think everybody on every thread regarding this topic knows where you stand now.
In the words from an immortal movie.
"you have got to let it go"

[Toolpants]

Be patient? Mate, this is the first improvement in staff moral for years. SP, you take as long as you like, the troops are uniting more as the dispute goes on. We can go on for ages like this.

As for Management: The longer it goes on, the more of them will be sacked when it is over. Look at the London terminal thing, as soon as it was sorted, the manager was booted. And that was only a couple of day’s worth of delays. Even if the dispute was magically sorted out tomorrow, some management would still go.

If MH, JV and cocks are smart, their resumes are out already. It is easier to get a job if you haven’t just been in the paper for getting the boot from you last job.


(Note.. Hey PAF. Is it true you joined the air force about 12 or 15 years ago and told them you wanted to be a fighter pilot. Is it also true you never made it?)

[division1]

Considering G.D.'s immortal words,
Mr Dixon said yesterday that there would be no meetings with union representatives as long as the threat of industrial action hung over his airline.

"And you can quote me on that,'' he said.

After taking a few pawns and a bishop,
Could we claim to have him in the check
(cheque, lol) position?

And when will his queen (D.C.) fall.

[another superlame]

Hey Frozo the people causing delays with your travel is QF management. They have the power to fix this whole debacle in a heart beat. You have not worked under these people obviously. This management have painted themselves into a corner with all the special area procedures and rules they have bought in. Now their is no overtime and the LAMEs are working as per their management devised rules the system cannot cope. It goes to show that the goodwill of these LAMEs over the past 6-7 years is what has kept this airline flying and doing mostly on time.

So crawl back under your rock and direct your constant diatribe at QF senior management. They have the power to resolve this whole situation.

If this isn't sorted soon, not only will the LAMEs be in dispute but all the staff under the TWU might follow suit. If that happens I believe it will bring a whole new meaning to the little delays that you are suffering now.

[Hardworker]

Its interesting that DC & MH have released the new Operations Managers positions - why because they have no idea how the actual business of maintaining a fleet of aircraft and handling personnel, so when it all goes pear shaped they can blame someone else....
The question remains why bother having MH/RH/DM/KM?
Whats the point, why not have operations managers and delete these"Jobs for the Boys", honestly they are like pigs in a trough!

On the other point I agree it isnt the industrial dispute that is causing the problems, sure the lack of overtime is hurting but why?
The reason being the continual outsourcing of Maintenance & Components!
When the overtime was running guys were fixing errors or lack of maintenance carried out by the 2nd class maintenance organisations - you get what you pay for!
How many times have LAME's changed multiple components of the same item to find the so called serviceable item is defective...recently serviced by El cheapo's Component workshop.....

Time All Qantas Management from the top down was overhauled...., pay them out, terminate them, people who have no idea on how a business works shouldn't be in positions of a complex machine as aircraft maintenance

[chemical alli]

paf, go drop some food parcels in angolia. there,s a good chap tally ho and away you go

[kotoyebe]

Guys,

Stop giving oxygen to you know who. If you can't help but reply to his posts, then put him on your ignore list. He is trying to get this thread closed down. And he will suceed, if we keep biting. Ignore him! We need this thread to keep going.

[Collando]

PAF


Engineer's seem to laugh and enjoy the fact they effect people's travel plans


No PAF only yours


Is it true that if you tried harder in school you could have been a pilot instead of an aircraft "mechanic" that needs another man (union rep) to put forward his case in life?


Having been an industry pilot and a LAME let me tell you any monkey can be a pilot.whether you are a good one of course is another matter.
But personally being a LAME has always been more challenging, and mate Pilots belong to unions too (although perhaps not in the airforce)Sir yes sir,although I am begining to doubt that.you are actually a RAAFpilot as I would be surprised that with the airforce selection criteria they would select a dumbass like you.

Engineer's seem to laugh and enjoy the fact they effect people's travel plans in an attempt to achieve their Communist goals

Are you still liviving in the 50s?


Or you could hand back the thousands of dollars you took from members and handed to the ACTU (an organisation that handed money over to the ALP).

If that were true how would a RAAF person know that, and if it is true Im sure the ALAEA know what they are doing.

You clown

[division1]

If the executive decides to donate 18 grand to the actu, thats fine
with me. The ACTU is assisting the lames, and they have credibility,
unlike you.

[delta 4]

I'd like all to consider the most dangerous rat is a cornered rat with no chance of escape............

Do NOT give an inch or expect Qf management to just conveniently roll over just because they're talking to the ALAEA & ACTU. Its over when they have signed the 5% EBA.

Dont trust them, never will

D4

[Talkwrench]

I heard a rumour that writing has already started for a 'bastard boys' style ABC documentary on the 2008 QF/ALAEA eba dispute. Who do you think they'll get to do the acting for the various players in this saga? I wonder who will play GD, KB, DC etc...

[nuked]

Date: 02 June 2008

Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change


Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year.
In the State of the Industry address at IATA’s 64th Annual General Meeting and World Air Transport Summit in Istanbul, Turkey, the association’s Director General and CEO, Giovanni Bisignani compared the airline industry to Sisyphus - a mythical character whose fate was to constantly carry heavy loads uphill.
“Over the last 60 years the industry made US$11.5 trillion in revenues, but only US$32 billion in profits. Average margin for the entire industry has been just 0.3%. And the industry is US$190 billion in debt. Since 2001, airlines achieved massive change. Fuel efficiency improved 19% and non-fuel unit costs dropped 18%. The skyrocketing price of oil has eaten these gains and left the industry in the red again. Oil prices at US$130 a barrel are changing the game for everyone. The situation is grim,” said Bisignani.
Bisignani sounded the alarm in a stark declaration to governments, industry partners and labour. “Airlines are struggling for survival and massive changes are needed. Governments must stop crazy taxation, change the rules of the game and fix the infrastructure. Labour must understand that jobs disappear if costs don’t come down. And to our partners, the message is simple. We are in this together. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you,” said Bisignani.


Interesting to note that a number of US Airlines are cutting back on flights, routes and people and they are all citing the high cost of fuel as well, any chance that theres something to this, or are they all just shouting management BS as a scare tactic.



No statement from me, just reporting what I've read, I'm sure their are people here who know more about whats going on then what I can read in the papers.

[Talkwrench]

With reference to your post above: Qantas has not issued any profit downgrade advice to the Australian Stock Exchange, so presumably, they do not view the current spike in fuel costs as having any effect on their profit forecast for this financial year at least (which I believe is forecast to be around 1.4 billion dollars - not bad eh?). With any luck they will snap up all of Virgin Blue's market share if and when they fall over, just as they did when Ansett collapsed, and it will be happy days. Perhaps IATA is hyping it just a little bit to leverage concessions out of governments around the world, to ensure the various management groups it represents can continue to harvest outsized remunerations from the airlines they run. I guess IATA is a lot like the ALAEA - just doing its best to get maximum return for its members...

[sprocket check]

PAF

I am reluctantly drawn into this debate by your recent comments. FWIW, I am neither a LAME nor involved in this QF action in any way, nor am I or ever have been voluntarily involved with a union. Nor am I a socialist.

I can tell you however, it requires much more knowledge and intellect to be a good engineer than it does a pilot. I can also tell you as I know from close relatives that the men and women that maintain the aircraft both you and QF fly take immense pride, seriousness and responsibility in all they do in their profession.

They also carry and take home the burden of safe aviation every day. I also know that at least some if not most will not be able to sleep at night if they have any doubt about the quality of their work.

I sincerely hope the aircraft you fly in the RAAF will never get signed off as serviceable under pressure from the top. Nor the one you take as a civil.

Further, it takes far more knowledge and intellect to be able to distinguish between a communist and a western, capitalist society union delegate than you seemingly possess. Should you ever wish to educate yourself, look into the reasons that communism, or rather socialism took such a hold in the world. Especially the social conditions of the times. If you are too lazy to do so, PM me your number and I will take some time out to help you out.

Depending on how you've been indoctrinated, it may open your eyes somewhat or else cause you to bury your head in the sand, similar to so many generals in Viet Nam between 1948 and 1975 for example.

By associating yourself with the RAAF you are now putting shame on the Services by your ignorant and provocative and selfish comments.

Are you really worthy of the uniform and badges you bear? Are you the kind that would stand by your mates in the heat?? Or would you just turn your back and bury them... Hey, are you even Australian???

sc

[aveng]

Pass a Frozo
"No.. Is it true that if you tried harder in school you could have been a pilot instead of an aircraft "mechanic" that needs another man (union rep) to put forward his case in life?"

I seem to remember that the RAAF pilots course was only 12 months from inception to commision. The eleco course was 18 months and no I dont think they spoke slower. You are truly a clown. By the way I have never been interested in flying - might be hard for you to believe but some of us would be bored sh!tless sitting in a cockpit for hours.

Appologies in advance for true pilot professionals.

[ejectx3]

apology acccepted :ok:

Don't back down ginger beers......Everyone who has had to bend over and take it from management are on your side....

This NEEDS to be a turning point. Shut the whole damn thing down. Other wise the dire predictions about QF vanishing will eventuate as has probably been GD's plan from day one.

:bored:

[Flugbegleiter]

Date: 02 June 2008

Fuel Crisis a Catalyst for Change


Istanbul - The International Air Transport Association (IATA) called on governments, industry partners and labour to address the fuel crisis that is pushing airlines into the red. IATA forecasts a loss of US$2.3 billion for 2008 based on an average oil price of US$106.5 per barrel Brent crude. The association sounded a warning that this year’s loss could be even higher -potentially US$6.1 billion with an oil price at US$135 per barrel for rest of the year... blah blah blah
The price of crude oil has today gone up to $137 a barrel!! :eek: This could actually be as bad as QF is suggesting, maybe worse.

But you know what? As I have already stated, QF has had years of great times and no one one the floor has received any more than substandard pay increases; ie: 3%/pa plus an 18 month wage freeze. ALL of us should be getting pay rises indexed with inflation. Then, if we want over and above that amount, we need to work on productivity gains. But to ask for a pay rise in line with inflation is fair and reasonable.

If QF had been looking after its people, they would not find themselves in this situation now. Maybe the board could personally finance your pay rise from the excessive bonuses they have received from the last 5 years or so??

[Sunfish]

1. Whoever you are, please stop feeding the trolls, it only encourages them. I've reported the offending posts to the moderators anyway.

2. Your Fed. Sec. is doing a great job please listen to what he says and do what he wants you to do.

3. Expect more trolls here and elsewhere, trying to sow your minds with Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) who will try and get some of you to lose your temper and make threats of taking actions that are either criminal or immoral. Don't lose your temper. If the trolling becomes excessive, I'm sure the moderators can act and if necessary either ban them or track the person down.

4. "Good Faith" doesn't mean what you think it does. You can and must deal "in good faith" with the Devil himself in any negotiation and if you don't, you are held to be acting in "Bad Faith" and you immediately lose. It's not about who you are dealing with, it's about not deliberately f*&king up the bargaining process.

From Wikipedia:

Good faith, or in Latin bona fide, is the mental and moral state of honesty, conviction as to the truth or falsehood of a proposition or body of opinion, or as to the rectitude or depravity of a line of conduct, even if the conviction is objectively unfounded. This concept is important in law, especially equitable matters

Bad faith (Latin: mala fides) is a legal concept in which a malicious motive on the part of a party in a lawsuit undermines their case. It has an effect on the ability to maintain causes of action and obtain legal remedies. Generally speaking, courts will not just look at the legal rights of parties in pursuing a transaction or a lawsuit, but will look behind the activity at the motives of the persons attempting to obtain the assistance of the court. If a court feels that the reasons behind the transaction or lawsuit have the effect of abusing the power of the law, or the court, it will generally deny a party the ability to rely on a legal remedy that they will otherwise be entitled to.

But please also be aware that Lawyers and QF can still be absolute C**ts and still be deemed to be acting in good faith.

Classic legal trick is when you have agreed to give a response to something within a week that requires an immediate answer from the other party, wait till 4.55pm on a Friday afternoon then send your response by fax - giving the other party less than five minutes to respond, then claim breach of good faith when they can't.

.....So, all you lot do exactly what your Fed. Sec. tells you. No more, no less. He knows what he is doing. There will be more attempts to either provoke you, divide you, or scare you into backing down shortly.

[Sunfish]

Nuked:

Labour must understand that jobs disappear if costs don’t come down.

Management must understand that when Engineers jobs disappear planes come down.

Investors must understand that profits disappear when planes don't fly.


To put it another way, Investors (shareholders) are entitled to all of what's left after all costs of the company are met, and that includes labor costs.

They are not guaranteed to any return from their investment whatsoever, not even their original investment.

In other words, they have deliberately exposed themselves to risk in the hope of receiving a return.

You, as an employee, are not an investor in the financial sense, you are entitled to be paid whatever the market rate is, just like the sellers of jet fuel.

To put it another way, what do you think the Shell Oil company would say to Geoff Dixon if he rocked up to them and said "Mate, I want you to charge me less for Jet Fuel because I have to pay my Engineers more"??

[Socket]

Ive been kinda busy so havent had a chance to keep up with the last day or so of what has happened.

Has ANYTHING been done about the guys docked pay?

Has Q given ANY concession or even met with ALAEA?

Has ALAEA executive given any indication to members of a direction they are likely to go.

Hate to sound like a dumbass but as stated in previous post I am not a member anymore/yet.

I really hope CASA has been briefed on ALL breaches of the companies manuals by managment. I have seen AOC's suspended for extremely small breeches. The Q AOC is issued on the basis of the manuals submited and approved by CASA. It would be justice if one of these "managers" managed to get Q's AOC suspended.

[The Black Panther]

Air traffic workers seek pay rise

Posted 28 minutes ago
The nation's air traffic controllers are seeking a pay rise of between 40 and 60 per cent.
Civil Air, the union representing 1,000 employees, says there's a shortage of air traffic controllers and the rise could help increase the number of people in the profession.
Civil Air executive secretary Peter McGuane says they hope it will also stop air traffic controllers heading overseas.
"We believe that the salaries that we've proposed are comparable to those being ... paid internationally," he said.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/07/2267915.htm?section=justin

Who's worried about 5%.

[wanty]

I heard a rumour that writing has already started for a 'bastard boys' style ABC documentary on the 2008 QF/ALAEA eba dispute. Who do you think they'll get to do the acting for the various players in this saga? I wonder who will play GD, KB, DC etc...


No doubt Monty Burns will play Dicko:ok:

[Flugbegleiter]

Yipee!!! Looks like all of Frozo's posts are now GONE!!!

Thanks, moderators. It's about time he went.

:D:D:D
Thank GOD for that! Thanks mods.

It's fine to have a differing point of view, but Frozo was just here to stir up trouble. He did the same in the FAAA EBA forums. It's a shame that he will be able to sign up with a different name. Look out for him...

[Short_Circuit]

Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/misc/multipage.gif 1 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438) 2 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=2) 3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=3) 4 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=4) 5 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=5) 6 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=6) ... Last Page (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=322438&page=105)) 2.090 posts, 121.545 views
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/rating/rating_4.gif


Thanks Moderators for removing trolling posters, this is an important thread to all LAMEs.

2.090 posts, 121.545 views. (Would be more if the previous 2 threads were not closed).

[qantastrike]

:DHi guys
I was sent this link in an e-mail, which by the history of it has really been doing the rounds..... I believe this video shows that the majority of the australian public are behind ALL qantas workers as we stand up for our right to better conditions and equally to save the big Q from fading into the memories of us all. To all the members of the public out there who see me in my uniform on my way home from work and sympathise with our position i say a huge THANKYOU. And to managment who's ultimate goal is to destroy a truly Australian icon i say "you're all bums" and the datum of un-australian. All should view the link below to de-stress and enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WSJop5sG2c

[Socket]

PAF and FOZO free atmosphere, the groganhouse gas solution.

[Socket]

Still waiting to hear if the guys who were shafted have been exonerated or have they been left hung out to dry.

[max1]

Black Panther,
Don't believe everything you read re-ATCs going for 40-60%.
We are about to go through the same thing as you. Place surviving on O/T,staffing allowed to run down , better money OS, lack of payrises since 911, managers spouting doom and gloom whilst rewarding themselves with huge increases, ill thought out projects that cost heaps whilst delivering little or negatively impacting the bottom line, lack of ongoing training. Lack of accountability at the top and expecting us to run the place on goodwill, BS press releases that make sensationalist reading but are far from the truth.
I have been very impressed with SP and your executive, and wish you all the best.

[blubak]

Lets all just sit back now for the weekend if lucky enough to be off,im sure that after the meeting yesterday there will be lots going on behind closed doors,all take the advice of the fed sec and even though we might feel we are being fed crap again by qf, lets go with the flow as far as waiting for the next meeting-if it proves to be a fizzer well im sure the assoc will have no hesitation in letting everyone know and the approtriate action can be taken but lets not make ourselves the villains here-we have proven our good faith,lets make the other side show it now.

[Short_Circuit]

This weekend its Footy, V8's, down some suds and enjoy life with the Family.
If working it's PPM, AMM, MEL, DDG, EA, ATP & home on time.
Let Geoff do the stressing out. :}

[Talkwrench]

Yeah, Monty Burns face fits for that role. I also heard that the 'dried wound' alternative workforce are taking special qantas acting training and receiving 'orals' from the Civil Actors Safety Authority because they want to play themselves in the ABC docudrama 'The Sky's The Limit'. Apparently they want to prevent the industrial action by Actors represented by the Australian Actors Guild having any effect on the production of the show!

[Talkwrench]

Please note, Post #2097 is entirely fictitious and any resemblance to persons or situations, alive or dead, is purely coincidental!

[Nudlaug]

I am sure you all know the Army of one... thought i post it again....:ok:





Written from a pilot point of view

Fits to engineers perspective, with a few modifications


I am an Army of One

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal
loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL,
getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping
during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company
every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the
gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the
miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst
day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I
still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do
it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money..but this too may
change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad
weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of
indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts.
It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by
bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a
one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents
on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots
downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the
fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a
contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy
grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking
for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for
CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One.And I'm not alone!

[Short_Circuit]

I am an army of many,

36,000 odd.

Together we will fight the tyranny of the greedy few.

We will resurrect the phoenix of Qantas

The greedy will die on their swords.

I am an army of many.

PS

4 1/2 days for a classic 747 A check, what is the story? (EBY post-HKG C chk)

[Nudlaug]

Hear hear!

[Anulus Filler]

Count me in your army!:ok:

[empire4]

ok, heres the thing. Whilst most of my ACS brothers are holding steadfast and not helping the company as much as possible there are certain QF lames in Avalon extending themselves beyond the call of duty and accepting shift changes to maintain the schedule. Althought i know it is not in the PIA, come on! An a/c was also sent to AVV because of a fuel inbalance problem, happened to get departed by a crew on OT, and guess what? it made its schedule to do a SYD-LAX.

FED SEC, please put in place a TOTAL overtime ban next week if these so called good faith meeting end in the way we all think! Some AVV personal have no spines, are managers pets, and are snaking my brothers .Doing us all an injustice when they undermine PIA of OT bans on days off by changing shifts to accom. the schedule. We need more involvment by HEAVY MAINT in this.

stand tall my brothers, we will win the battle and the war.

[REALITY]

name and shame :D

all details to the Bexley bunker :ok:

[Konehead]

The price of crude oil is rising, but once again what has this to do with our wage claim?

Not alot. The word on the street is the price spike is as a result of speculators. The latest rise is due to some indiscreet comments about attacking Iran by an Israeli defence minister at the behest of a corrupt prime minister struggling to stay in power. The latest acceleration in prices is as a result of speculators once again. It's sentiment, not any real supply vs demand crimp.
AND, the US economy is slowing, according to Prez Dubya. If it's slowing, the world economy will slow, as will demand. If supply is maxed out and demand decreases, then simple economics states that the oil price will fall.
So hang tough. GD knows all this and is milking the current high prices for all they're worth. He had $125 million in the bank to waste on beating us. So lets help him chew through it!

[fixitdude]

Re Fuel Increase, Surely the way the dollar is (AUD v's USD), hedging and the fact that QF just passes on a surcharge to the pax, most of the "fuel crissis" from QF is just propaganda. ACTU leaflets from the stop work meetings suggested that QF are actually 1.6% better off!

[northsteyne]

A special day for one leading hand in CNS, as he was the last of the redundant batch to take the cash after 30 years of service,happy days kenny.:ok:
A very sad day for a station who once was very proud to be called a can do station.(just ask any classic capt)
Apon handing the used uniforms,Id and Qf paper work to one of the DMM's
(or some would say narcissist basta:mad:)he was told he now does not work for QF any more and that they did not want him contacting or socialising with any of his QF colleagues.:=
These are the kind of people that are now in charge of what once was a great engineering company.(ooh, maybe that's called a Murray moment)
As for the other Dmm at cns, he was planning how to spend the cash from all the overtime he and his mate are doing.:=
Happy retirement kenny, very sad no support from QF.

[HARDNUT]

North Steyne

Surely this couldn't happen.I cant believe that after 30yrs of service someone would be treated like that. Is this FNQ port you are talking about cairns???

[BLF Goon]

Being from maint watch Syd, I can remember when we could count on Cairns to get the job done. Sounds like times have really changed up there. What is the reason for this?? When AO 767's where based there we could get everything done. That was only 2yr's ago. The only thing thats changed is the management,they must be responsible for the sub standard performance of the station.

[The Mr Fixit]

Yes it is Cairns

The DMMs (2 of) as MH's Puppets have created this destructive environment

I hope he told them to fk right off when they mentioned not contacting his former colleagues

Remember this is the base and the same supervision that had people stood down for placing witches hats in different places and writing on blank pieces of paper

[Motorola]

Surely this couldn't happen.I cant believe that after 30yrs of service someone would be treated like that

Believe it. A flight attendant with 32 years service has been deliberately targeted with a security search and allegedly found in possession of macadamia nut chocolates from the aircraft.

They tried to sack him, but he got his job back after appealing to IRC.

http://www.airc.gov.au/AIRISYS/isysquery/e0497f19-47ab-43f1-868e-3c1ad4cf39bb/7/doc/

[speedbirdhouse]

It was proven in court that these chocolates were waste and would have been disposed of after the flight.

Rumour has it that when the Berlin wall came down and Germany was re-unified Qantas management got a cheap deal on former East German GDR STASI training manuals.

These have been put to use honing the people management skills of the middle management thugs that operational staff report to...........

[vortsa]

Hot off the press

Late Friday afternoon Corporate Management called a meeting of all Engineering Executives. They were given 30 minutes to come up with a means of cutting Engineering payroll by 20%! They were told it doesn't matter how you do it, just do it! If we don't make budget this month we will be all out in the street.

Believe it or not their response was:-

Although we can see ways to cut the bottom line and these will require us to ask our employees to work harder and achieve more with less The more we looked at our staff and where we should make the first cut, the consensus was finally reached that Qantas has for a long time been a well oiled machine and it has only been since we the management have been expecting higher profits ahead of the needs of our staff that our share value has fallen.

So the solution is we the entire Executive Management resign, this will exceed the 20% salary reduction and Qantas and the machine can now start running at full steam again.

[Short_Circuit]

Vortsa
What are you drinking, I think we all need some. :eek:

[stiffnut]

Vortsa you are wrong, they have a secret plan to make everybody a manager, so they wont have to deal with the lames. Better look out the good shirts and pantshttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon6.gif

[Konehead]

I live in vain hope that people who matter in this company are reading some of this anecdotal evidence of the rot that has set in. I dream of a palace coup decapitating the leaderhip team of GD and friends. Don't look to the board, with the likes of LC the Rio union buster as the Chairman.

[Short_Circuit]

They could chop 90% of the new Ops Managers save a bucket load and we would see no loss. (in production) :ok:

[chanel1234]

way to go lads....

Must Silence anyone who disagreess.....

you lot have a nice little propaganda forum here, anybody who speaks up is branded a troll and accordingly after lobyying to the moderator is banned.

I am a proud unionist, you Aussie LAMES are clearly (as the baned PAF) says communists, you ban freedom of speach.

You have these well versed quasi commo tossers like Sunfish supporting your cause, man this guy is an absolute ******.

I propose that you all swapp roles with UK LAMES Ha..ha.. that would be a laugh, compare international wages you tossers.

You fellows are so insular, you all rev each other up via feel good commie
rehtoric, how you will win , how you will do this and that. Then you ban anyone who disagees, THIS IS WHY YOU WILL LOOSE

I say leave your jobs and go work in the UK, but i dare say no takers, as the wages cannot compare.

Comapre Global wages and put it up on this site, bet you cant, and if you do will probably be propagand commie bull.

[Short_Circuit]

PAF

Please rack off and annoy the pilots on the network. :{

Mods, obviously you have not banned PAF, think again. 124,666 views, no one want to hear PAFs coments..... :suspect:

[chanel1234]

I would like to ask the ALAEA FED SEC.

As a perspective member , how do i get access to the finianicial position of the ALAEA.

I need to know this prior to joining , i need to know if indeed your finiancial position is sound.

As a potential member, i want to understand what the current financial position is.

Can you please advise of donations if applicable that are

500 to 1000

1000- to 2000

2000 and above if

So as i can understand how the organisations works prior to joining

[The Black Panther]

If we all realise a heated debate needs two combatants.
If we choose not to debate with the one who seeks attention he will eventually move on.

He may seem like an elephant in the corner of the room but please no eye contact.

[Anulus Filler]

PAF- Is like a bad case of diarrhoea that just won't go away!!!:bored:

[rudderless1]

HaHahahahahhahhhaha,
Any one who needs to clear all their posts lacks any credibility whatsoever! To many ghosts in the closet eh PAF? Couldn't justify any of your arguments due to your self conflicting and delusional responses. Failure to answer questions but expect others too.
1200 posts to the toilet= well flushed:ok:

[rudderless1]

Why did you flush your posts PAF?

[blow.n.gasket]

Here's one for you to debate PAF,
"Do executive remunerations have any inflationary effects to the economy?"

[Boardman]

Heard a rumour that the guys down in Melb Domestic that left a 747 off bay a couple of nights ago until 4 am due no famil training on type have been stood down. True or false? Anyone know anything?

[Silmarillion]

Heard a rumour that the guys down in Melb Domestic that left a 747 off bay a couple of nights ago until 4 am due no famil training on type have been stood down. True or false? Anyone know anything?Reliable source in Mel informs me NO. Nobody has been stood down.

They did take some sort of retribution though, they parked 5 aircraft on the fence u/s for a day, in lieu of 5 workers pay .:=

I think the Bible says "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

Well done Mel :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Nobody stood down guys. They have just been told they will lose pay for not doing what the company ordered them to do. When the money is taken off them we go to AIRC to get it back. The direction to park a 743 without a licence holder present was illegal.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We have a forum of our own but without people providing other viewpoints the threads tend to just wane off through lack of interest. I just want to thank those non members who are not in agreement with LAMEs for keeping this and other LAME threads popular and often at the top of the list. It helps us get more interest and better support from the press as many of them get leads to their stories from here.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Stephen,

That's good to here that you provide a forum (http://www.alaea.asn.au/forums/) for the members who don't wish to hear the opinions' of those that disagree - I'm sure you have read that many don't agree with you regarding contrary opinions. However perhaps if you have another $18,000 this financial year you could advertise it to your members to prevent their angst at hearing the opposing opinions.

ALAEA Fed Sec: We have a forum of our own but without people providing other viewpoints the threads tend to just wane off through lack of interest. I just want to thank those non members who are not in agreement with LAMEs for keeping this and other LAME threads popular.... It helps

[Silmarillion]

PAF

You can post as much crap as you like in this forum as that is your right. You need to realise the reason for our rage is personal. We have done everything this pack of A***Holes have asked us to do, despite knowing the eventual harm it would cause, without a fuss. Whilst our whole work environment has crumbled about us we kept working hard to keep the flying public flying and tried to rectify something out of this absolute mess D.C. M.H. and co had led us into.

I will say this once and once only so pin your ears back and listen.

EVERYONE IS CALLING THIS AN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE, IN FACT IT IS JUST A BUNCH OF ENGINEERS CARRYING OUT THEIR JOB USING STUPID PROCEDURES WRITTEN BY IGNORANT MANAGERS WHO HAVEN'T THE FOGGIEST IDEA ABOUT LAME'S OR WHAT OUR JOB INVOLVES. TO THIS END...

FOLLOWING THEIR GUIDELINES AND WORKING TO THEIR RULES, WITHOUT OUR GOODWILL AND OVERTIME, WE ARE PROVING TO THEM, THAT WHAT WE TOLD THEM WHAT WOULD HAPPEN (3 YEARS AGO) HAS HAPPEN.

WE TRIED TO INTERVENE MANY TIMES, BUT WERE BULLIED INTO SUBMISSION, SO HERE WE ARE.

DIXON, COX, HARRIS AND ALL OF YOUR YES MEN, THIS MESS LIES FIRMLY IN YOUR LAPS, SO GET OFF YOUR COLLECTIVE BACKSIDES AND TALK TO THE ENGINEERS ABOUT HOW WE CAN FIX THIS WITHOUT BLAMING IT ON CRUDE OIL PRICES, 3%, ETC ....... IF YOU DON'T YOU WILL PRESIDE OVER THE DEMISE OF THE BIG WHITE RAT.

WE ARE ONLY AFTER WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY OWED TO US AFTER YEARS OF ABUSE AND DISRESPECT FOR OUR SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE. DON'T FORGET WE TOOK A HIT FOR 18 MONTHS TO HELP THIS COMPANY MAKE A $500 MILLION PROFIT SO NOW IT IS YOUR TURN.

[Konehead]

I'm yet to see a credible argument for your pay claim - you may not like that but instead of trying to stake your claim you seek to dismiss.
You've seen plenty of credible arguments for our pay claim. You just refuse to recognise them.

[Silmarillion]

I tried PAF you're a goose. we aren't doing anymore than we were doing a year ago. we are doing exactly the same, but with our hands tied and with 100's of lame's less.

Welcome to my ignore list and give my regards to Cox, Harris and co.

[Boardman]

Thanks for the update Stephen.

We did tell our new "mangement team" that their "New World" would cause big problems and these problems would rattle around the system. These guys through the baby out with the bathwater.

We had a system that worked. True, some adjustments were needed. Problem was these guys refused to listen to people with years of experience. I had my new manager with 2 weeks exposure to Line Maintenance bsically tell me a did not know my job! I am a 30 plus Line LAME for God's sake! However, as a collective we did as we were asked for good or bad.

Mistake #1, ignore good advice. This is the reason that we now have aircraft missing on time departure, breaking and missing curfew, etc. Basic mechanical failures brought on by this system.

We are asked to make radical changes to save money which we did as above. We actually saved more money than we were targeted to do. Unreal! I actually had satisfaction from helping to do that. I then thought, OK now to adjust the system and fix the obvious problems. QF makes a ton of money, all good!

Oh boy! Next thing, sorry boys you've been bent over and no repayment for helping us out. Sure, we are paid to do a job. So what about the clowns above us! You guys grabbed your cash, we are only asking to keep up with the cost of living. Not a big ask.

Funny thing is, if we do have a real work to rule (which I can tell you is not anywhere near full swing at present) as per QF and BMM Procedures to the letter and completely legally the airline will really know it is in a punch up!

Most of the crap at present is QF copping it's Karmic Deby.

God IS an Engineer!!

PAF or whoever you call yourself wake up! There is a bulldozer coming!

[Konehead]

Post deleted through finger trouble. Please see my next post below.

[The cougar]

I am looking forward to a lot of empty offices on the 3rd floor of 271!

[Boardman]

Thanks Twister,
Yep, I figure there would be a lot of "Trolls" in here. I just hope they pay attention and take some of this info on board before it is too late for them!

Managers, dime a dozen. Good managers, rare species.

[Konehead]

Actually I've seen plenty of claims. I just refuse to recognise that they are credible.
1. 1999 - 2008: total pay-rises for LAMEs = 17% over 10 years, or 1.7% per annum. Community standard? 37% CPI? 34% GD? 251% in 5 years, or 50% per annum.
2. A 25% drop in LAME numbers vs. a 25% increase in fleet size in the last few years. And until recently, the vast majority of aircraft were getting out on time. That equates to a massive increase in efficiency per LAME by anyone's reckoning, despite an ageing fleet requiring relatively more maintenance.
3. We were promised to be "looked after when times are good" in return for a 30 month pay freeze. Three years of record profits under their belts, and we've been "negotiating" with them for nearly 2 of those three years to get what we were promised.
4. A top tier AME is paid more than a first-licence LAME. "Here's a licence son, take on all the responsibilities of a signatory, supervise those AMEs - oh and now give me back $X bucks a week!" HELLO!
5. A QF LAME has to work for over 30 years to receive what a 1st year LAME receives at VB or J*.
Shall I carry on? Perhaps others can add more reasons.
Some of you may ask why I bother replying to PAF? I'd like his support but I know I wont get it. To date he's ignored all the above points previously stated in this thread and others. I also feel personally insulted that you think our pay claims are not credible. And NO-ONE is on a go-slow. I STILL have MY arse hanging out every goddamned day, and so do the vast majority of my colleagues.
PAF, granted, 4 hour stoppages hurt innocent people. I agree with you. Can we now move on? When you've worked beside me for 16 years of nightshift in all climatic conditions, shortened your lifespan as a result, sacrificed your health and family life and social scene, put up with restrictive and downright stupid procedures & policies written by managers who seem determined to price us out of the MRO market, tried to fix an aircraft without IT or logistical support and been insulted and abused by your management telling you you will get a pay-cut in real terms for what you've achieved over the last few years DESPITE THEIR best efforts, you have a right to criticise our pay claim and the tactics of last resort with which to achieve themn.

[Konehead]

Care to provide the exact figures? %'s with dates? Hopefully you understand that 17% over 10 years is not 1.7% per annum.
1999: 2%
2000: 3%
2001: 0%
2002: 0%
2003: 3%
2004: 3%
2005: 3%
2006: 3%
2007: 0%
2008: 0%
Total: 17%

Hopefully you understand that 17% over 10 years is not 1.7% per annum.
Whatever.

[Boardman]

Hey, I would love to see the response if VR was offered. Even if we did get what are asking for I think the response would be massive.

The big danger here is these guys up top are messing around with an Industry that relies on the passing on of knowledge.

At the entry level the word is out that QF is a deadend. Kids need a career with a future more than ever.

At the top end the majority of LAME's are close to retiring age. Ten years will see lots of us out.

What happens if the "middle career" guys look at getting out through frustation and work out that there is a world outside QF?

The chain is breaking!! Very dangerous!

If the "Trolls" out there don't think it can happen, look back at the '80's.
I know a lot of you guys weren't around then, but those who were fill your buddies in please. One the gates open it is very hard to stem the flow.

Last time imports fixed the problem after a lot of time and cash was spent to get them here and train them.

World wide there is a shortage. It is a real concern and if Management does not consider this side of it, well it is irresponsible.

As a good friend of mine who travels for work constantly said to me.
"Let me know when it is time to stop flying."

Very scary stuff people. Don't undervalue what you have, it too late once it is gone.

[Anulus Filler]

ok.. now care to calculate that using compound interest?


and the figure is....

wait for it.......

here it comes....

18.2% compounded over 10 years. BIG DEAL!!!!

[Boardman]

PAF.
The exclamation marks are not for excitement. They are more for concern and to highlight something that should be seriously taken into consideration.

If you think people are excited that the "safety chain" is breaking, you sir are a fool. This is a very grave situation and should be taken as such.

We as LAME's have to have a huge responsibility. For you to mock that disgusts me.

Give yourself an uppercut you fool.

[Boardman]

Interesting PAF.

You deleted the post before my prevoius one. Had to quickly retract your statement 'eh.

At least leave what you type in for all to read. Then again it nice to know that you must know when you have over stepped the mark. Thanks for that.

[Sunfish]

I had a good look at a Discovery Channel documentary on the A380 program yesterday. That is the biggest most complex civil aircraft ever produced.

Then there is the Boeing Dreamliner - composite fuselage and all.

I also remember the planning and introduction into service of the B767 by Ansett, in which exercise I was a very tiny cog.

I'm going to make a prediction here, based on what I read on this thread about the capabilities of QF management.

......And that is that, if Engineering and General Management keeps performing the way they are, the entry into service of those aircraft is going to be the worst nightmare ever seen in any airline.

I don't care how modern and super duper these new aircraft are. There are going to be new and unusual problems to deal with that will require innovative solutions and a huge effort by engineers to deal with. It always happens, no matter what the salesmen tell you.

However, by the time these aircraft arrive, I think QF will no longer have the technical and engineering ability to deal with even the most minor technical challenge, and will thus lose control of the technical agenda to Airbus, Boeing and whatever Asian MRO's QF has chosen to use. When that happens, Engineeering costs will increase suddenly and dramatically.

To put it another way, Qf should have invested large chunks of its supposed profits in modernising and increasing it's Engineering capability over the years. It does not appear to me that it has done this, in fact the reverse.

....And pretty soon it is going to bite QF, and unfortunately Australia, on the backside.

If you want to understand why, read up on the threads about the absolute shambles that has been the opening of Terminal Five at Heathrow. The description of this farce is littered with Ppruner comments from BA people to the effect that "We told them that (insert system or procedure) wouldn't work, but the managers simply ignored us".

I get the feeling that the same thing happens at Qantas....does it?

[Sunfish]

Ran across this organisational behaviour stuff yesterday. It's old, but it has some relevence I think, when it comes to analysing behaviour.

It's what's termed "Microinequities" - subtle slights that devalue people and effectively lower their performance in the workplace.

I have always been pissed off by these things without realising it, from the time I stood in a queue with everyone else waiting to clock out, watching the managers driving their company cars past us and out the gate without even a glance.

http://www.magazine.org/content/files/Microinequities.pdf


I don't think Dixon's continuous slights are "micro" though, it's pretty obvious that if he deliberately takes Eighteen months to negotiate an EBA, he thinks that you are all ****e anyway. That attitude is going to bite QF's arse one day, but by then Dixon and his ilk will have taken their bonuses and shares and slithered away.


Microinequities: When Small Slights Lead to Huge Problems in the
Workplace
By Eric L. Hinton

May 22, 2003

This story was published in the March/April issue of DiversityInc, the magazine.

Imagine for a moment you're sitting at your desk when you see your boss walking around the office introducing a new hire to all the current staff members. At each stop, your boss spends several minutes exulting in the various accomplishments of each of your co-workers and rejoicing in what a valuable member of the team he or she is. Then, when your boss approaches you, he simply identifies you by name (which he mispronounces) and says you've been with the company for a year (when you've actually been there for three), before quickly moving along.

As you now ponder whether it's time to update your resume, that sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach has a name. You've just been the victim of a microinequity, says Stephen Young, senior vice president of corporate diversity for JPMorgan Chase. Over the past fewyears, Young has become a personal crusader, preaching to corporations the destructive consequences of employers and co-workers who exhibit forms of exclusion, both implied and
overt, in the workplace.

A microinequity is defined as a subtle message, sometimes subconscious, that devalues, discourages and ultimately impairs performance in the workplace. These messages can take the shape of looks, gestures or even tones. The cumulative effect of microinequties often leads to damaged self-esteem and, eventually, withdrawal from co-workers in the office.........

This stuff is about the "meta message" - the message people send when they don't think they are sending a message.

It appears to me that Mr. Dixon has no understanding of this concept, or wouldn't care anyway, because he sends a lot of meta messages. The theme is always the same - everybody except me is ****e.

- Like dragging on an EBA negotiation for Eighteen months, when executive pay is minutely readjusted annually.

- Like saying that he and his Board are responsible for the company's success (and by implication that the workers aren't).

This seems to be completely at variance with what Qantas claims on their own career website:

In the air and on the ground the Qantas Group’s fleets are at the forefront of aviation thanks to the teams of talented specialists in Qantas Engineering who share a commitment to professional excellence. Our reputation is a direct reflection of the abilities, dedication and professionalism of everyone responsible for the care and maintenance of the fleets of our customers.

.....If that last sentence is true, which I think it is, then why is F***king you over and getting rid of as many of you as possible?

[HARDNUT]

Konehead you are right on the money, couldn't have put it better myself :D

[Negative Feedback]

I wonder if our uber leader would be able to stop thinking about his fat bonus for a short time and think of someone else? I'd go and watch and maybe even sing a lullaby:E

http://www.parravinnies.org/ceowintersleepout/

[crackfinder]

FYI, fuel prices in Jan last year were around $54 us a barrel. So if we had our EBA sorted as it should have been then, this would not be an issue. I am surprised that GD hasn't blamed the earth quake in china for not giving us a pay rise. But I am sure he is keep that up his sleeve.:ugh:

[blubak]

Excellent post boardman and konehead-just to put it in sinple terms leaves no one in the dark about what is going on and has been in the last few years.
Are there management teams so good that they can afford to completely ignore the years and years of experience fixing their aircraft every day and night of the week(remember managers-these aircraft departing on time decide if you get a bonus or not).
Try having some respect and if you dont understand,maybe u should ask before u criticise.Getting back to another post,just shows you how low they can go suggesting a guy who is retiring after 30 yrs should not have any further contact with his work-mates.
1st of all,totally out of line yet again and shows the arrogance and how unprofessional they really are and secondly
SHAME ON YOU-YOUR DAY WILL COME,MAYBE QUICKER THAN YOU REALISE.!