Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA

[satos]

How to get rid of staff cheap.
It is obvious now that managements plan to “get LAME’s to quit without their entitled redundancy money” has failed.

I have another plan that will get rid of staff and require no CR/VR payments.

Do NOT renew any of the “2 year contracts” that all the “so called” managers are on. They are then all gone at no expense to the business. A byproduct of this will be staff moral goes through the roof.
Promote permanent staff LAME’s to 2 year contract managers. Those LAMEs are now off the books at no cost to the company.
Repeat step 1 in 2 years time.
Repeat step 2 in 2 years time
Keep repeating until, “hey presto” all staff gone and no VR given.I guess the last step is to turn off the lights when it’s finished. Today 15:12
End result,welcome to qantas the virtual airline run by lap top managers.

[600ft-lb]

any news on yesterdays meeting ?

[Ngineer]

Didnt think there were any more till after WYD week.

[Newgen]

If your manager refuses to put in writing that he will doc you 4 hours normal pay for engaging in industrial action if you do not work overtime after shift, fill in a stat dec and include all relevant information, list all people present, and have it signed by a JP.

......too easy!!

[northsteyne]

I would just like to add,
When I was with QF I had several, what they called talks,attitude adjustments,which I must say, they were total amateurish at this game, but on one occasion I was marched into a room with 2 dmm,s or as we now call them scabs,with my trustee union rep in toe and as the steam was still coming from these two idiots noses they were informed that we were going to record this meeting with a electronic recorder.
At this time a camera would of been handy to capture there very blank(what do we do now look) expressions on there faces as they had no idea as what to do. They asked for a break straight away and had to ring the next boss up the chain for guidance.This official talked was immediately reduced to a friendly chat and QF under no circumstance wanted the information taped.
Always tell them you want to record the meeting, they hate it, as they have no out if you bring up the context in future, and they also are put in a position where they won't threaten you.

[chksatis]

what time do the boys at melbourne international finish at night, see the qf9 isn't sched to depart until 1.15am at the earliest, i thought they finish at 1? might be a good oppotunity for some spotting to see who's loyal or not and those who stay back.....

[terraform]

Dont know what the story is in NSW but in QLD it is legal to record a conversation as long as ONE party to the conversation (ie you) knows the recording is happening. You dont have to advise the other party that they are being recorded at all. Up here you'll find that 90% of the QLD police will record their conversation with you whenever they pull you up for speeding ticket etc and you will never know.

[qfbadboy]

Well done to all QF management.
QF these days seem to be consistently hovering around a dispatch reliability number of 50%
This could explain the company's interest in wanting two more meetings next week even though they say they won,t hold talks with groups taking industrial action.
I,m told the new financial year has renewed the companies enthusiasm for a resolution .
On another note. Did a Brissy dock Lame cop 4 hours pay docking for not entering a fuel tank ? This would be very ironic since the guys just voted in the flexibilities agreement .
Well done to Ame,s who rejected the document I bet Big Nose was shocked to learn you blokes also count

[Bumpfoh]

what time do the boys at melbourne international finish at night, see the qf9 isn't sched to depart until 1.15am at the earliest, i thought they finish at 1? might be a good oppotunity for some spotting to see who's loyal or not and those who stay back

Not there so not exactly sure however as has happened in the past the MIT boys go home at 0100 as per shift, the respective DMM's round up any suitably endorsed 744 people from MDT and together with the MIT DMM, who looks after any deficiencies in LAP's, area famils. etc, they then depart the A/C.

One potential complication can be if the MIT DMM is not 744/MA endorsed and an avionics defect pops up as the MDT 744 boys are all mechanical.:E

Oh bugger!:D

[comrade10]

CONGRATULATIONS BOYS FOR A FINE EXAMPLE OF UNITY TODAY! 80% VOTE AGAINST THE FLEXIBILITIES. Someone had to stand up and show these jokers that we mean business and wont be pushed around. brisbane managemnt are really smart standing down a LAME 2 days after getting their support for these flexibilities, and at that, a LAME who is a Team Leader of a workshop with militant AMWU AME,s, real clever Biff!! Have got to say though, if not for the fantastic work of AMWU delo,s like JS and SC this could nearly have got up, QF managemnet have to understand that flexibilities are not free, no one in their right Mind would agree to open up an agreement and put in their biggest bargaining chip for nothing, stop treating the AME,s like second class citizens, just because your IR manangers cant deal with more than one union at a time! MAINTAIN THE RAGE BROTHERS

[Flugbegleiter]

4 flights didn't go tonight - 3 of them were 747s!!!

QF063 to JNB (744)
QF011 to LAX (744)
QF021 to NRT (A330)
QF577 to PER (743)

If those flights are full, that's well over 1300 pax!!!! I'm surprised the papers aren't making a bigger deal of this...

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We are happy for papers to not be talking about these days where there are a large number of delays. It is almost as if this has now become a normal day and is no longer newsworthy.

[comrade10]

QF Badboy, I honestly wonder if big nose even knows what day it is, he is a puppet with strings and wouldnt know how to manage a whore house. Dixons letter for commitment to A330,s aint ganna save this hangar, the only thing that will save it is to get rid of big nose and Biff and get some real managemnt in, the facility operates only for the fact of its great check co ordinators, LAMES and AME,s that keep it afloat and show " flexibilities" on a daily basis without having it shoved down their throught by some over paid, over the hill industrial relations consultant...

[comrade10]

Congrats to all AME,s today for the fantastic result on the flexibilities vote, 80% voted against the resolution! we all know the management have done a fantastic job of building the trust amongst the boys in the last few weeks, especially by standing down a LAME for a genuine safety issue!! Great job by the AMWU delos for presentation, JS, SC,
Who knows, we might all be bargaining together at the end of the year if the ALAEA EBA is still being fought, strength in numbers...

[NAS1801]

Big Nose cannot understand why the flexi**** was voted down. Here's a few reasons.

1)There was sweet FA in it for sheeties, composites, painters and planning personnel.

2)He was expecting to open an EBA and to put the flexi**** clause into it. He would not give a guarantee that when the time came to start negotiating the next EBA, he would not have more **** sandwiches.

3)THE DAY BEFORE THE VOTE HE DOCKED THE LEADING HAND OF THE SHEETIES FOR REFUSING TO GO INTO A FUEL TANK.

Some more points.

1)LAME's voted yes to the flexi**** because they were offered type course training spots.

2)Sparkys voted yes (only just by a few votes) because the were offered a couple of training spots (less that what mech AME's were offered I may add)

BOTH these two groups have EBA's that are under negotiation and have been for over 18 months. Maybe members of their unions are fed up with the buggery on the part of the company in their negotiations.

Bet those unions that said yes will expect something in return. They have this opportunity because they are negotiating. Sadly, the AME's don't have that opportunity. Bet the company gives them more **** sandwiches. These managers are pathetic and never learn from their mistakes. By offering them nothing the big nose has started a war with the AME's now. I don't think they will be too friendly when they start talking about their next EBA. Even more people taking PIA perhapps?

[comrade10]

nas 1801, your spot on with your comments, these jokers have been pulling our chain since november 2006, about 2 months after settling the AME,s EBA, qantas come back asking for these flexibilities, they have had ample time to put on the table a fair dinkum offer for the AME,s to accept this "**** sandwich". they thought they had it sorted cause of the amount of contractors in the place and because the LAME,s voted it up. They were wrong!!! their worst vice against them is their reputation, THEY LIE. They have done the AME,s over with their RDO,s since the last agreement, forcing them to take them on mid week days while the LAME,s get free pick whenever they like. as you pointed out, they offered nothing for the other trades, unfortunately for them this makes up the majority numbers, They deserve everything they get. also to be noted is the IR management cancelled all meetings scheduled for next week for the classification review cause of a dispute with the boys in tullamarine about P.E,s which is nothing to do with the BNE boys, bad move qantas.... that put the icing on the sandwich

[vortsa]

KEEP THE RAGE

Don't tire of the battle, maintain focus and resolve, the enemy is waiting for you to drop your guard, he sees you sleeping on watch and senses that you think the battle has been long and you are wanting to rest, he will never rest because he is fighting for his life, you need to reform your ranks and make a new charge at the enemy when he is not expecting it.

The battle is not won yet

I see little to no new comments being posted and hope that this is not a reflection of the sentiment of the the majority. Time is definitely on your side but don't sleep on the job.

Victory is at hand.

[acslame]

Vorsta,
I am so pissed with these lying pack of ***ts
that I want to just hit the grass.
My resolve is now 100% up on what it was
when this started.
I look at management now with pure hatred!

MAINTAIN the RAGE
is now my life motto when it comes to QF

[HotDog]

Hey Vortsa, do you have music with that battle cry?:rolleyes:

[vortsa]

No time for words just choose sides
No fear cause no one can hide
No room to keep this inside
I'm on the front line yelling out the battle cry

I'm sick of waiting and hearing this instigation
It's time to take over the station (and get y'all pissed off)
It's like my patience it's worse then the situation
So I keep a straight face and scream (all you all get lost)
It's not society nah, can't beat sobriety
Something inside of me is keeping me down
It's cause you lie to me and take away my privacy
I used to stay quiet but look at me now


(No!) I won't calm down
(No!) I won't put my fire arm down
(Hell no!) We're either leaving here or fightin'
Or we're writin' some new rules and I'm doing the writin'
Who are you to govern me, how could you govern
If you got no f#ck!n' love for me
I see the love but I don't see it's brotherly
Ya love to rape me, hate me, smother me
So I'm gonna be steppin' with my Armageddon
Weapon I'll wet 'em and let 'em
Step again Armageddon weapon will wet 'em step again


I used to stay quiet but look at me now
I could have sworn I heard the battle cry
I thought I heard the battle cry
I could have sworn I heard the battle cry

[blubak]

friday,s qf9 didnt go till 1.40am today.
Never mind about the media not reporting it,with 300+ tired and infuriated pax on board u could,nt have a better way of reporting it particularly when they start talking about their flight to friends,colleagues and apologising for missed meetings etc etc.:ok:

[not4thefainthearted]

ref link below,

INVASION OF PRIVACY ACT 1971 (Qld) - SECT 43. 43 Prohibition on use of listening devices (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/consol_act/iopa1971222/s43.html)

seems ok to not tell the a_se holes you are recording. Check with a lawyer nearest you first.

[F.O.G.]

Regardless of whether the BNE HM Lame's got bribed into accepting the 'flexibilities' aka 'a tooling at our convenieince' with course slots that will likely NEVER eventuate ( ref Syd ACS A330), it does not settle my mind about having them in the EBA.

Once it's in the EBA it is a VERY simple matter, if my understanding is correct, for these 'management' sleazebags to trot off to the commision and voila, everyone is copping the 'flexibility' tooling as it is 'accepted practice' in the QF Engineering workplace. :uhoh:

SIT, SDT, MDT, MIT, SYDBASE etc etc.

I DO NOT want to see that crap in OUR EBA, SP !! :=

[Olaf54]

especially as a letter was given to pax blaming the delay on inustrial action.
I'm sure a copy has found it's way to FEDSEC already.

[Millet Fanger]

I had a new (not young) ops manager scoffing at me this morning but how QE were making LAMEs irrelevant. They were bypassing us and getting A-checks done in LAX.

It struck me as a very stupid comment, and a very Sydney Base-centric point of view. I wonder if this is the character type that MH sort out when hand choosing those to be 'on his team'.

I also wonder if the 1200 pax who are overnighting in Sydney tonight share the ops manager's point of view. QF11 is estimated to be running 47 hours behind schedule, QF1 and QF31 only approx 16 hours late.

QF11 is the A/C parked in H416 for the last 2 weeks. The ops managers were taking a controlling stake in getting the A/C back into service, until under their guidance the whole thing went belly up. Haven't seen an ops manager any where near it in the last 4 days. They don't want to know about it. Barely keeping a running oversight of the A/C from the 12th floor 'bunker' now.

[acslame]

This has gone way past 5% now
I want blood

[Dockie]

Has onyone seen DC and his henchmen lately? I can just see it. After this is all sorted out DC [with his apron on] will put on a BBQ for every base and say "Thank God thats over boys and we can now "move forward". Yeah right.
Note:- If I hear that f*****g term "moving forward" one more time I'll strangle someone.:yuk:

[LAME2]

I don't think that would happen Dockie. DC would only be feeding his henchmen and cronies. Any self respecting person would have to find other more important things to do. Personally, I'd rather go hungry than have to talk with him or MH. Too much muddy water under the bridge for me to feel like being civil to those two. I often wonder what MH asks the man upstairs for each and every Sunday. I believe he is a religious person. But I guess Mugabe might be one too to some people.

[division1]

I've got plenty of things better to do than give audience
to these @$$clowns, refueling gpu's comes to mind.

[NAS1801]

I often wonder what MH asks the man upstairs for each and every Sunday. I believe he is a religious person. Ahh yes.... religion is but a tool for the devious. Cause grief for those you "manage" Monday to Friday then clear the debt of your conscience on Sunday.

[Take five]

1. Thank you to the ALAEA officials for your wonderful proactive support of the members during this campaign.
It certainly is refreshing to see a bunch of officials who can not be bought, with company favours and incentives, unlike the last lot which were representing us.
I am so glad that we voted these new, fresh people into office.

2. Thank you to all of the A.M.E's for their support during this stressful time for many. With planning texting you up to 3 times a day for you to work overtime on your days off, and upsetting your free time with families and friends. It is appreciated by every one of us.

3. To the Managers.
The Proctologist has finally been able to locate where your head is.

Although I can understand where you are coming from.

After all it really is your very existence that is at stake.

If we win, I'm sure you realise that you lose.

[rudderless1]

Make your mind up CPIOM
ALLEGED alternative work force.
orthe list of the alternative workforce people being trained :ouch::O

[NAS1801]

Cpiom, as much as you would hate to admit it, Mendaero has far more friends here in this thread than you. Your poisonous post will do nothing to deter our resolve. To the ignore list with you!

[Grassmere Avenue]

cpiom..
If you want a job to support your family...work elsewhere fool!:eek:

[adenuffofqf]

whos passage:} is next to the slicker slot

[employes perspective]

cpiom...i would hazard a guess that you are a KIWI

[cpiom]

Thanks for your advice GA and therefore I will work at QF. For the guys that wish to cry poor, compared against other airlines, well I believe your comment is pertinent.
Thanks for your input to the majority of writers on the forum.

[Jets on]

Careful cpiom,
This was exactly the attitude of Heavy Maint guys in Sydney, then they sacked them. No…No… No overseas maintenance but the next day! Heave ho Singapore we go. Its unfortunate that we the ALAEA membership didn’t have solidarity then as we do now but as they say "moving forward"… sorry Dockie:), you must question whether managements attitude of, no training for LAME’s and AME’s and then Selected personnel on contracts for the aircraft we had to have, has a hidden agenda. The management of this airline has refused its moral right of maintaining the integrity that they inherited and all their rhetoric about cost cutting and having to bid for your own company’s maint work is farcical. Stand together and YOU just may have a job, other wise be prepared to move anywere, just like he buyers to Melbourne, IT to Ballarat, 767 Heavy to Brisbane, workshop fiasco to Bankstown etc…. Where are you prepared to take your family, or would you like to commute interstate like other LAME’s do
\So I say to all, do your job diligently and professionally and remember you are only not doing o/time at this stage and if you are finding it hard at the moment you can have my share when or if management want get on with their core business of bum’s on seats. Lord knows somebody will have to pick up the pieces.
,

[Sunfish]

CPIOM...the troll returns.

[UP D Date]

5 744,s parked in base, 3 more in Avalon, fuel leaks aplenty, no-one trained to go in tanks, 743,s going to LAX now???!!!!! ZX,s flying to perth!! What a shambles MH has created, his name must be mud around some depts now, a few people lining up for a good buggering!!

[Mech-prentice]

6th June 2008, 06:11 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-general-aviation-questions/322438-merged-qantas-alaea-eba-94.html#post4162340)As I have previuosly said we the passangers don't care who causes us inconvenience, when we are told it is the mechanics, as far as we are concerned it is you! In the last couple of weeks that is the same announcement that comes over the PA over and over again.

12th July 2008, 20:41 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-general-aviation-questions/322438-merged-qantas-alaea-eba-177.html#post4239072)Yes I am a LAME in Syd and no I will not walk out when the rest of you do.

[Ngineer]

What a tosser!

[FULLY SICK DICK]

CPIOM = LAME PASSENGER (aka sc@b):ok:



C.P.I.O.M. - CANKEROUS PUSTILE IN OUR MIDST:yuk:

[enemy commander]

Gone All Quite On Us Mendaero :=

[wantsta]

[quote=cpiom; And to the gutless QF trainer from QF training Syd who used his privileges to send the list of the alternative workforce people being trained to the ALAEA[/quote]

cpiom, The only gutless people in this situation here are the ALTERNATIVE WORKFORCE OR SCABS, who want their names kept out of the public domain. Why is that ??? Therein lies the definition of GUTLESS.

[vortsa]

Australia: Unions give Qantas a "breathing space" to prepare fresh assault on engineers (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/jul2008/qant-j12.shtml)

I think all ALAEA members should read this article, then think what the next step should be and then...........

Maintain the Rage

[F.O.G.]

Well, if nothing else we now know CPIOM has a very poor informations source.

False accusations, slander, a touch of racism..:= .treading a VERY fine line there mate....in fact, with such a detailed description I can only think of one guy in boros who fits it, so I guess if he now encounters abuse or trouble because of your post you're in the same sticky spot as Mendaero........especially if he chooses to report you to the authorities........


Wrong section for Mendaero mate. I'm pretty sure I know the guy you are accusing and you are WAY off the mark. He does post here but certainly isn't Mendaero and certainly doesn't have ANY inside knowledge of union activities as it seemed Mendaero did.

But then if you don't believe me I'm sure he'd love to see you grow some balls and accuse him to his face!

[division1]

Who cares about the scab list anyhow, it's easy to see
which side of the fence one sits.
You are either with the lames, or against them.
Unlike management, when this is over, the lames will not
forget your actions that have prolonged this dispute.

[redhawk37]

You guys are such a yawn, and you somehow think others dont know who you might be - :oh:? I now understand why you think you are untouchabe because you feel safe that you wont be part of any adverse fall out from this stupid strategy - good for you, such bravery. By the way, threatened anybody near the tool crib lately?:D Whats that old Bowie song ...."we can be Heroes.........just for one day" :yuk:

[ejectx3]

Redtard...all these guys want is cost of living for christs sake. You are lower than pond scum.

[One Eye Redundant]

I'm sure I once saw a Redhawk on a David Attenborough documentary. It had a tendency to squawk meaninglessly while crapping in it's own nest.

[vortsa]

I seem to think that it was on the endangered list, if not it soon will be.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Just had a relative phone me to ask why the lunchtime Syd-Per flight was cancelled on Friday.I can only guess it was a B743.

The helpful ground staff informed the passengers that because the engineers were striking that day,that the flight was cancelled until that evening.And that the cancellation was not due to the aircraft being broken.

So thanks to the ground staff at Syd Dom involved in perpetuating the lies from management.:D

As everyone knows,the message would have passed to POCO from engineering that the aircraft was delayed for such and such a reason.So from that point there,who decided to turn the truth into a lie?

Was it POCO?Was it the SYD Dom MACS and his subordinates?Or was pressure applied from Senior management to turn the cancelled flight into industrial action?Was the flight really cancelled due to low passengers numbers?

Would Senior managers prefer the aircraft to fly whilst U/S?

It appears so........:=

[lordofthewings]

A friend in Adl tells me there are still quite a few LAMES doing relief work in Alice, and will soon be asking for people to help out in Darwin because guys are walking.
Way to stay on the same page Adelaide boys and girls, like i said earlier, weak as pis.!
:=

[Toolpants]

The morning 743 to Syd that broke in Perth, was fixed at about 1800. They could not send it to Syd because of SYD curfew. They then sent it to Mel Empty as a positioning flight as another 743 was due in Perth later.

Another 743 finally came to Perth. Although its STD “from Perth” was supposed to be about 1600 Saturday, it didn’t arrive until 0030 Sunday.

The plan was for a quick turn around.

Pax were all on (full load) by about 0200 and then…. Flight crew out of hours.

Apparently the ground staff were all too scared to tell the Pax. These were the Sat morning Pax still trying to get to Syd.

0230 Sunday- very angry pax file back into the terminal.

I think the A/C is still there.

[another superlame]

CPIOM if and when this EBA gets sorted out QF wont give a rats arse whether or not you went on strike or did or didn't support the PIA.
You will still be just a number to the powers that be, and you will still have to face the guys you stiffed for a payrise every working day.
The cold shoulder/silent treatment for the rest of your QF career will not doubt be a difficult thing.

[1me]

I have consistantly said, lets bridge the gap a bit now, wait out GD and deal with the next management.

Redhawk..what makes you think that the next lot of management will be any different? Why would they choose to deal with us any differently than this group or indeed previous groups have?

We have been taking your approach for the last ten years and look how far it has got us! We have been the ones prepared to give to help the company and the company laughs at us and spits in our face. When do they give? When do they bargain? When do they show anything but comtempt for us "(in their words)..over-paid...15-20% behind world's best practice..." LAME's?

If we were to act in the manner that you suggest, then the company will just think that they can continue to push us around without so much as a whimper coming from us. It's not going to happen.

Management have slowly but surely reduced this once great company to the dysfunctional mess that is currently is. This saddens and angers me. And then, when they walk away, they'll get their payout and wash their hands of the whole sorry mess and there'll be no recrimination, no-one brought to task, no-one to have to account for their destructive actions.

And you, Redhawk, have the gall to blame us for this! You say that we are acting inappropriately! You say that we should cop it on the chin to save our jobs! I don't mind differing views but please don't be offended if the vast majority of us disagree vehemently with your opinion!

[SpannerTwister]

www.news.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24014657-2761,00.html)

Qantas flight delays a trial for WYD pilgrims

TWO Qantas flights carrying scores of World Youth Day pilgrims from Perth to Sydney have been delayed by up to 16 hours. The flights were due to take off from Perth at midday and 4.15pm today, but the airline said the ongoing industrial standoff with its engineers had prompted a major rescheduling.

...........
"The industrial action by the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) continues to affect some Qantas flights in terms of delays and cancellations,'' the spokesman said tonight.

"This has been the case in Perth today."



I thought we weren't having any stopwork meetings over this period as a show of good-faith to the WYD organisers ?


Apparently we still are !!!




SpannerTwister

[Long Bay Mauler]

Well Geoff if you keep letting Bullshetti keep telling lies like that for you,you will reap what you sow.................

Keep it up


Maintain the Rage:ok:

PS Dont forget we tell our friends and relatives,and they tell their friends and relatives that it aint industrial action thats stopping your planes
Its YOU!!!!

And guess what,its a numbers game,and we will win.Because we have more numbers to spread the truth than you have to spread the lies:p

[Sunfish]

Nice to see the trolls out and about again.

Please don't take their bait.

Don't label them as scabs - they aren't, they are management.

Do exactly what your Fed. Sec. tells you, no more, no less.

[Propstop]

I was on the delayed flight from JNB. The sheet given to the passengers blaming the LAME strikes was slanderous. I did my best to fill as many people in on the truth of the delay and it was warmly received.
There were many passengers who ended up with substandard accommodation as well as many premium passengers who are fed up with QF who will be taking their business elsewhere in the future.
I sent a note of appreciation to the crew for not continuing the lie during the PA announcement and the service we got from the crew who were doing a very professional job under the circumstances. The aircraft was full of some very unhappy passengers and I know the crew copped a lot of flack. The general feeling was directed toward the management, especially after I mentioned that GD is on record saying he does not care about passengers or staff, only shareholders.
The general opinion is that the once proud QANTAS brand is being effectively trashed.
As I do rotations in Africa I have to ask my travel department to make QF an airline of last resort if they want me at work on time, at least until there is a change of board and upper management within QF.
I was also asked the average wage of the LAME and I replied my basic rate paid every month is more than the average QF LAME who works eleven months and I only work six months of the year, and in the time I work I double my monthly take home pay so my total pay for six months work is more than double the QF pay. I also informed many people that LAMES were having to work at least 30+ hours a week overtime to allow QF to keep the schedules on time and give a decent take home pay sufficient to pay the mortgage etc.
It certainly negated the 'greedy LAMES' sheet handed to the pax.
To the ALAEA, you certainly have grown a large pair of balls and a decent game plan to match, it has taken a long time and I salute you. I only wish that was the case all those years ago when I worked in Australia as the association office holders were guaranteed a management job at the end of their tenure if they did as told by the airlines, eg BD.
I only pray that FOG happens sooner rather than later.

[opalops]

I applaude you propstop for your comments to the traveling public. Everybody should do the same to stop these lies QF management are spreading :D

[ejectx3]

Why not take the lies to the media? You guys really need a prime time media slot . Especially the youth day pilgrims flight delay with the blame being layed at the engineers feet when it is publically known that industrial action if not occuring at the moment.

I cant understand why that letter is not all over the papers as total management bullcrap.

[shagonarock]

Perhaps as an idea, We should be handing out leaflets of our own to all QF
Passengers lining up to check their bags in.

I'm sure we could successfully raise a few eyebrows, by explaining
the true nature of QF management, and the contempt they hold
for their Staff in General.

[Ngineer]

I am sure the ALAEA know what they are doing. All it would take is just 1 media clip on prime time TV for people to realise management's dirty tricks, if they have'nt already as most do.

I don't think they realise how much Australians are sick of this "employee bashing" and "us and them" mentallity. The death of the Howard Gov should have made that obvious.

[Konehead]

Perhaps as an idea, We should be handing out leaflets of our own to all QF
Passengers lining up to check their bags in.

I'm sure we could successfully raise a few eyebrows, by explaining
the true nature of QF management, and the contempt they hold
for their Staff in General.

Pity it's a dismissible offence to bag the company. Yet it's ok for the company to hand out slanderous notes to customers. Oh the hypocrisy.

[Galley Raider]

Another FUD (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) busting story.

"...the significant strengthening of Asian currencies against the dollar in recent months has helped mitigate some of the effects of the ever-rising price of oil, traded in dollars, while historically low interest rates have made paying for new aircraft less expensive."

Full story Low-cost Asian airlines thriving on silver linings - International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/07/13/business/RAIRASIA.php)

GD, you won't be able to manipulate the workers, the shareholders, and the customers all at the same time. Even if the FUD is true this time I am sure you have heard of the "boy who cried wolf".

Bye Bye GD (FOG) Thanks for nuttin'. The true owners of this once great airline will stay behind to pick up the pieces.

[middleman]

anyone know why the QF12 isn't leaving L.A tonight ?
I was told PAX are in hotels and a replacement aircraft will be there for a 9am departure.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

Man This Is Starting To Sound Like A Mess

[lordofthewings]

Anyone know of the outcome of the meeting today.

[pablo m]

I've asked before and I will ask again, FedSec, why are there no rebuttals by the association in the media by ad's etc to the slanderous and offensive letters given to pax blaming 'their delay' on industrial action?
we busted a gut getting aircraft out to have these things waved in our face by an apologetic ground staffer, and watched the pax walk on board all reading this crap! come on, get our side of things out there, the aussie public need to know that QF management are destroying an icon.

[Millet Fanger]

Pablo M - If you listened to ABC News at midday today, or go to Google News - Qantas, you would have heard the above headline. Our Fed Sec was/is in the media today giving our side of the argument - namely that the vast majority of cancellations at the moment is of Qantas's doing. Chief reason being consolidation of flights.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

All,

I will answer the questions when asked about the reasons for delays but I will not make the Qantas garbage a focal point in the media by proactively promoting their lies. This would in a round about way validate their untruths in the eyes of some.

We do have a brochure ready for the pax and are currently looking at various means for its distribution.

[chksatis]

To the fed sec.....

Did qf offer a sweetner at the negotiating table, when you deicided to defer stop work meetings until the end of WYD week? I know it may be wrong for the patrons that are attending this event, but stop work meetings would have been so effective during this week as all flights internationally and domestically are stacked and further delays would have been great negative news for the airline.

[domo]

To the fed sec.....


are we any closer to getting a result then when we started, I know both sides are hurting but are the "meetings" getting more or less productive?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just to answer a few questions.

I have a you tube vid ready to go but have been advised that it doesn't look professional enough.

We are closer to a result than in Jan. It is a matter of when what we see on the table matches what we think our members would find acceptable and yes we monitor this site and use that partially as a gauge.

Qf didn't ask or know that we were calling off stoppages while the Pope was here. They expected us to do what unions used to do and target these periods. This in turn would have lead to Govt. intervention and the end of our campaign. The only negative news would have been against unions and ours specifically.

Just take it easy guys, the result will come. As a great man once said - "sit by the bank of a river long enough and watch the dead bodies of your enemies go floating by".

In other news we have been informed that all Qantas management strike breakers have been added to a list held by MAS management for those engineers that are "unemployable". Their names sit next to the Newport strike breakers pilfered from Malaysia.

[ampclamp]

Do you know of the john holland ads from last weeks press ?

Are they just rattling our cages or are Jh just looking to cash in on the cancelled international contracts or are they trying to punt the base for example or the lot of us in your opinion ?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I can't comment on rumours. If I did I would be very busy.

[tail wheel]

This thread was closed due to one user posting a malicious comment about another person. The post has been removed - and so has the user!!!

We will not tolerate malicious or libelous comments which name individuals. :=

Also due to the size of this thread and time constraints, the Moderators do not have the time to read and consider the content of every post. If you see a post which mentions or identifies any individual - even by initials - click on the "Report this Post" link, a small red triangle at the lower left, below the poster's name. That action sends a direct link to the Forum Moderators.

During my investigation of a complaint, I had cause to check the IP addresses of users and using tools available to me, compare/search user IP addresses.

The results were rather surprising, to say the least! :E

Also be aware that our detection of multiple user names is a very simple process.

Without going into details, every time you access the internet you leave a "footprint" here and on the computer you use. Be aware that the computer terminal owner could be aware of the sites visited and possibly the content of your posts.

If you come to this forum or thread for the sole purpose of stirring trouble, your PPRuNe career will be very short.

You have been warned! :=

:mad:

Tail Wheel

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Not me guys. Whose posts are missing?

For those unaware, when you post it leaves a stamp called an ip address. When you are a moderator you can click on a user and see all the different "characters" that are linked by the same address.

If you were stirring the pot by using 5 or 6 different names, Pprune would know. If you were to post from home under 2 different users and then decided to go to an internet cafe to put up some names or initials of strikebreakers under one of them, you could get caught out.

This site has been a great tool for us all to keep in touch over our short campaign. Lets make sure we don't blow that by posting something that borders on the defamatory.

cheers

[Galley Raider]

CPIOM seems to be GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE!

[hi-speed tape]

I did mention "big tits'" once. But I think I got away with it !!!!
Besides, tits' could be used to describe many on the QF mngmnt team !!

[tail wheel]

Thanks for your help and cooperation ALAEA Fed Sec. :ok: :ok:

With the tools available to Moderators, a simple search identifies multiple user names - and points to the exact computer terminal being used, whether in Qantas, Toulouse or anywhere else in the world.

If directed by a Court, PPRuNe could be required to reveal that information, making a user personally liable at law for any malicious or libelous post. Hiding behind an "anonymous" Yahoo or Hotmail address gives no protection. :=

Tail Wheel

[chanel1234]

"In other news we have been informed that all Qantas management strike breakers have been added to a list held by MAS management for those engineers that are "unemployable". Their names sit next to the Newport strike breakers pilfered from Malaysia."


Fed Sec Can you elaborate on above?

Do you endorse these actions? your post could be interpreted as influencing Freedom of association.

How do you justify your comments?

What lists have been given to MAS, and by who?

You have some knowledge of this, can you enlighten us all?

FED SEC should ne banned....gooooone , given the current environment i think you are sailing close to the wind.

I suppose the Ombudsman will decide, i look foward to your response

[Transition Layer]

ALAEA Fed Sec,

Just take it easy guys, the result will come. As a great man once said - "sit by the bank of a river long enough and watch the dead bodies of your enemies go floating by".

I am all for your industrial action and support you guys 100% - it is obviously having an enormous affect on Qantas dispatch reliability and on time performance. However, one must ask how long can it go on for? We must be losing pax (and money) hand over fist at the moment, and it's going to take years to get them back, especially premium pax from the likes of Singapore and Emirates.

If this goes on much longer and none of us will even have jobs to worry about...

[hi-speed tape]

You may be right TL. But all we are doing right now is choosing to stay away from work on our day off ! Hell I even did overtime after shift the other day when I was hauled into an office and stood over by Two stormtroopers disguised as QF management !!
I smiled and thanked them for their offer of extra pay, just as my Fed Sec advised us to.
So if the company crumbles because a small percentage of it's workforce decides to enjoy their days off at home for a "few weeks", then we really are in the poo !
And who's responsible............? Me for having a day off ?????
FOG.

[hi-speed tape]

PS: and I do like big tits', just not the tit's in management !!! So there !!
FOG

[The Mr Fixit]

To all the LAMEs sticking to their guns out in the Qantas world - WELL DONE

This tussle is a fight against oppression as it is for a payrise, time to rid ourselves and our company of an outdated wage policy for its workers whilst its open slather for the execs.

To Tailwheel and Tidbin, thank you for your patience and restraint this forum has been of great benefit to LAMEs all over Aus and the world.

I will be proud to recall that "I was there and took part when then the LAMEs took on the might of Qantas and WON !!!!"

"Keep'em flying Boys"

[Millet Fanger]

Transition Layer

If we both understand the impact of what hi-speed tape correctly states all we are doing right now is choosing to stay away from work on our day off ! why does QF management refuse to negotiate? On an annualised basis, the cost of this decision will exceed the $350 million that it was so desparate to ensure didn't end up in it's employee's pay packet. That's all employees, not just the engineers.

Almost as staggering is the QF board's failure to act. According to QF management, the board fully supports management's actions. Will they be so supportive when the full extent of damage done is revealed? They are responsible too!!!!

[middleman]

I'm at LAX, trying to get back to Oz.
Been told QF12 is not going again tonight. Not sure of the reasons.
Calling the local number to check flight status and they just say without hesitation "lots of cancellations and delays because of the engineers"

They say some staff have been waiting 5 days to get out and might be a few days yet.

Sux to be stuck here but fully support the LAME's and their action.

Best of luck guys..

[Gen Y]

Thanks for your support! :D

Sorry to hear you're stuck in LAX - seems AirNair hasn't quite saved the day like M had hoped...

As you probably know, QF blaming engineer strikes on delays is a complete lie as the ALAEA have suspended all stoppages until after World Youth Day and the Australian school holidays.:=

You may want to inform your fellow frustrated travellers that mismanagement of an engineering operation that relied too heavily on overtime is a more feasible cause of their inconvenience...:rolleyes:

[Ngineer]

Sorry to hear mate.

Another point is that the more blame that can be dumped on us by management, then the more chance they think they have of having our PIA cancelled.

[Toolpants]

hi-speed tape (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/212602-hi-speed-tape)

But all we are doing right now is choosing to stay away from work on our day off!.........
(http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/212602-hi-speed-tape)

That really puts it in perspective.
If only we could get that in an add or brought up in parliament.


So if the company crumbles because a small percentage of it's workforce decides to enjoy their days off at home for a "few weeks", then we really are in the poo !

[1me]

The reality of the situation is that we have a system that has been under a lot of strain for a prolonged period with only bandaid stopgaps to address structural problems.

By this I mean:

- We have aircraft tooling spread around the country and rarely is it in the port it is needed. So when the tooling is in Avalon, for example, but is required in Sydney, it needs to be transported up.

- The same is true of spares.

- We have less manpower to work more aircraft (either through attrition or redeployment) The advent of the A330 crews in Sydney Base and now the construction of Team A380 have further reduced crew numbers. The A330 guys however, do work on the Boeings as well when their workload permits.
Go back 10 years and the average crew size was 1 + 10; now most crews are 1 + 5 or 6. (Good luck if you want leave with these crew numbers! Oh that's right...all leave has been cancelled until further notice!) But we don't need more people..just work more OT! :ugh:

- We have aircraft that are getting older and therefore require more maintenance. Yet when we find defects we are accused of "Going Slow".

- We have an OHS system that commands us to work with two hands tied behind our backs and hopping on one foot... even though the way we have done things in the past has worked very well.

- We have programs like Lean Sigma and 5S foistered upon us because some boffin "learned about it at Uni so it must be good.. "

I could go on but I don't wish to bore you further.

[acslame]

So the company are blaming us for all the delays
Well so what!
They have never told the truth anyway so
why would they start now?
And what do we care anyhow.
All it means is that we are getting the credit for
industrial action we never had to take!
The company and the LAME's both know the
truth and the pax are going to be pissed off
regardless of who's fault it is, so really
what does it matter. This isn't a popularity contest.

If any of this got taken to the commission it would
be proven in a heart beat that we were not taking
any action, and that gents is the only forum that
we need to worry about.

In regards to getting the info out in the media, what
you have to realize is that you can make a statement
to the media but they choose what to print and
it boils down to what slant the editor wants on
a particular story. Remember QF has a massive
advertising budget and if the paper wants a share
of that money it had better not offend the hand
that feeds it.
People have stated that the assn should take out ads
in the paper. It costs about 60k for a full page ad in
the SMH or tele and even if you do have the money to fund it
they may not even run it as it could conflict with they view of
the owners of the paper!
So as I see it best we let QF blame us for all the delays
and we get our coverage for free!!
Never mind if it isn't the truth.


Maintain the Rage


confrence

[1me]

Sorry to go off thread, but...has anybody else noticed their post count is not accurate? Mine seems to indicate about double what I have actually made.. :eek:

Sorry if this has been mentioned before..

[blackhander]

Fedsec is there such a thing as compulsary arbitration these days?
Given the constant fleet expansion and personell reduction 5% would seem to be well justified on a productivity basis if the arbitration commission still exists.

[kotoyebe]

Does anyone else view the thread about the QFLH pilots EBA8 on the main forum, a very interesting and dangerous development in the current war between the ALAEA members and QF?

Here’s how I see it. It is pretty obvious to me that the AIPA are about to put to their members an agreement between them and QF that will include a headline number of 3%. If this happens, and it will, then your campaign is gone, history, kaput! Watch them ramp up the media war.

No matter what sweeteners are included in the AIPA document, even if it makes a total increase of 10% with bullsh*t super/profit share etc, the headline number will be used to squash your campaign.

If the AIPA members vote in the 3% headline, then scrotum face has the ammunition to attack you. “How dare you guys take the company to the brink, while the pilots, who are just as important as you, only take 3”

If the AIPA members reject the 3% headline, then scrotum face still has all the ammunition he needs. “I told you the world would end if the engineers tried to get 5%...we can’t afford it!” AIPA members drag it out with the company, then finally give in and take 3 because they will NEVER go on strike/OT bans etc. Scrotum face has more ammo. “See, at least the pilots who are just as important as you, have seen the light about the world about to end and got some sense into themselves and accepted the boards 3% wages policy”

If the ALAEA or the AIPA can’t break the 3% wages policy, then I will resign from my union. And I’ve been a union member all my working life. If a collective of arguably the most skilled and important employees of QF, can’t break through the greed and hypocrisy filled “board approved wages policy”, on the back of a recent referendum election on industrial relations, then unionism is truly finished in Australia. I may as well use my few hundred dollars a year union subscription to buy an ipod.

Is this the silver bullet scrotum face has been looking for? I hope the ALAEA exec are talking to the AIPA exec.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Arbitration would not be kind to us. We would end up with a model dispute resolution procedure that takes away the power of the AIRC to arbitrate.

We would most likely end up with more than 3% but backpay would not be a given. We think there are better ways to attain a fair wagerise and are comfortable with the position we currently find ourselves in.

The AIRC can only order arbitrtion on our agreement if the Workplace Relations Minister cancels our bargaining period. This could be done on grounds of National interest which is one thing we are attempting to avoid at all costs.

It's quite easy to sit on the sidelines and say "cmon ramp it up" but we have many other factors that are considered when decisions are made.

Next meeting is now on Thursday in Melbourne. 1030AM.

[Bolty McBolt]

kotoyebe
Here’s how I see it. It is pretty obvious to me that the AIPA are about to put to their members an agreement between them and QF that will include a headline number of 3%. If this happens, and it will, then your campaign is gone, history, kaput! Watch them ramp up the media war


An interesting view but has nought to do with us.
While I understand the AIPA have struck a deal or so the rumours go.
While I have not seen it, the murmurings are the usual, not all crew on all fleets are looked after same with 1 fleet benefiting better than others.
QF tried this approach with the LAMEs with 50% doing well and it was knocked back.
The pilots are split across 2 unions so I doubt they could pull anything off without being undermined by the other. Secondly any bans pilots put on will have an immediate effect and look heavy handed unlike our PIA, which is an accumulative effect which until recently ACS management denied OT bans could hurt the business at all.
While the APIA will publicly support the ALAEA I am sure they will tow the line as I think behind closed doors they know due to the 2 points above that they could not win anything more than what is on offer plus a few sweeteners. I will gladly be proved wrong when the document sees the light of day but I won't hold my breath.

The media war you mention can NOT be won by us as its people missing their flights and that is hard to put a positive spin on this
Plus there is no comparison between engineers and pilots.
If you wish to compare chalked up hours worked for pay etc or compare my wage against a 3rd year 2nd officer on the 744.
These things will make the company look cheap as there are more pilots than LAMEs so I think these figure will never make the press as it is not in QFs advantage to do so.

QF pilots I am not having a go at you nor am I comparing our plights as I see it the only thing we have in common is the name stitched into our collar.
Good luck in yours as I am sure you wish us well in ours.
:ok:

[HotDog]

Plus there is no comparison between engineers and pilots. We work for a living

Well Bolty, that was a pretty unfortunate remark to make, don't you think?:rolleyes:

[pablo m]

QUOTE
'Plus there is no comparison between engineers and pilots. We work for a living'
a VERY unfortunate phrase, we all wear QANTAS on our hearts and we are all in this together. Every single QF employee is important, from the blokes and girls who wash the planes up to the planners, fliers, gingerbeers, - everyone keeps the planes in the sky and the pax happy - but would we notice if the :confused: were gone???

[Bolty McBolt]

Can no body take a joke

I have edited my post.:ok:

[ejectx3]

I took it as a joke. The rest of you chill.

[WheelsandBrakes]

Fedsec,

As one of the LAME's that has recently been accused of walking off the job over the w/end by CH 7 news, several radio stations and written media outlets, I do NOT understand how this can be said/written. No media personnel contacted myself or any of my crew to determine if this was true.

We arrived at work last night and were confronted with these media lies. All of us knew that we had worked exceptionally hard and professionally during the shifts in question, (following ALL the QF procedures designed to make our jobs more difficult), and we definitely did NOT walk off the job!

My crew has been defamed, and after this has taken place QF management/QF Shareholders/travelling public/Oz Govt just expect us to give 100% again when we next show up to work. Well we did! That is because we are professional and take our job of maintaining aircraft VERY seriously!

Be assured WE DID NOT DO THIS FOR QANTAS BECAUSE QANTAS IN ITS CURRENT STATE DOES NOT DESERVE TO SURVIVE!

An apology is owed to us from the "source" that told media personnel that we walked off the job. Stretching of the truth is one thing, TOTAL lies is another!

[tail wheel]

1me. Very observant!! :ok:

Your post count has increased as a consequence last nights "little disturbance". This thread is now duplicated in the PPRuNe Mod's Administration Forum, which you can't see but in effect your post numbers have increased by the number of posts you made in this thread up to last night.

I see this post is # 3,600!! It is a very large thread even by PPRuNe standards.

Tail Wheel

[triple bogie]

wheelsandbrakes

It's all part of the 'BIG BUDGET' buggery campaign, don't let it bother you.
You know the truth and that's all that matters.
stand strong, you and your crew are proffesional, as all LAME's & AME's are!

UNITED WE STAND!!

[SUB]

Any ideas of the Qf Heavy a/c departing after 2300 last night, I saw 2 a/c at approx 2320.

[Engineer_aus]

Glad to see you leave being cancelled once again. What about leave without pay? They cant cancel that can they? Why don't you all put in a leave form and all have a week holiday. Surely there is nothing they can do about it? I am glad I left Qantas and actually earning more and enjoying life even more since leaving QF.

[Konehead]

Anyone flying Qantas recently would have a good chance of suffering delays and cancellations. I would like to apologise on behalf of the engineers for the delays caused by our “go slow campaign”, but I can’t. Because it is not true. I can however, apologise on behalf of Qantas for the lies of a few who slander the 1,500 engineers who have been working harder than they ever have to keep aircraft flying safely.

Someone in Qantas management has authorised the distribution of letters and notes to affected passengers accusing us of a “go slow campaign”. The truth is that we are not working overtime on our days off, and we are fully complying with the policies and procedures written by Qantas Engineering management, which actually adds to our workload.

Unfortunately, Qantas Engineering has become overstretched. The last few years has seen the closure of Sydney Heavy Maintenance and the slow bleed of highly trained engineers through numerous rounds of redundancies, leaving Qantas Engineering with about 20% fewer engineers. Yet in the same time the fleet has expanded by about 20% - a clearly massive increase in productivity per engineer. Yet the current Qantas Engineering management (many of whom have no prior aircraft engineering or aviation management background) have introduced new policies and procedures that make it increasingly difficult to do our core job of fixing aircraft in a timely manner.

There have been repeated changes in organisational structure; a sharp decline in the number of spare parts held and an inadequate distribution of the remaining spare parts; outsourcing of numerous component repair functions that were once done in-house to unmatched standards of both turnover time, quality and reliability; a proliferation of lower and middle management roles; more engineers involved in “special projects” and other frivolous and unnecessary tasks rather than actually working on aircraft… the list goes on.

Over the years our productivity has increased despite these new policies and procedures. This is because in the past we worked around, massaged, bent and stretched them and sometimes outright ignored the sillier ones. We made do with the little we had left. We worked overtime on our days off and after our shift ended, and worked through our meal-breaks. We risked dismissal for violating company policies and procedures as we worked around the shortages of equipment caused by constant cost-cutting and the failures, impracticality and lack of common sense inherent in those policies and procedures. Why? To get the job done, because that’s what engineers do. It’s in our blood. We have made many representations to management in order to streamline the processes but they have not been implemented because the ideas are not their own. Decades of experience in the industry are systematically ignored by inexperienced managers.

And then there is the issue of training. We know all about Office Ergonomics, Diversity, Hearing Conservation and Fatigue Management. We have seen every tier of management and supervision pass through leadership training at a forest retreat at a cost of thousands per head, only to see the managers ignore everything they've learned and particiapate in a "buggery campaign" against the people they are supposed to lead. But the really important stuff has been lacking the last couple of years. Like being trained on the aircraft types in the fleet that we're supposed to work on, approvals for running the engines, tug-driving, operating heavy equipment, first aid and fuel tank entry to name a few. We're now in the ridiculous situation of not actually having the trained people to do the job we're there to do. Over $300 million has supposedly been invested in Qantas Engineering, but little of it has reached where it is needed.

The Sydney Heavy Maintenance engineers were promised that when the Avalon (Victoria) Heavy Maintenance facility opened, only “overflow” work would be sent to Avalon. Then they closed Sydney Heavy maintenance. We were assured that when Sydney Heavy Maintenance was closed down, only 5% of heavy maintenance would be outsourced offshore. Well now it’s running at over 20%, with aircraft being sent to Malaysia, Hong Kong, the Philippines, New Zealand and the USA for critical maintenance and still requiring work to be finished or redone when they arrive back in Australia.

The company has been crying poor since the Asian Economic Crisis, when we accepted a lower than standard pay-rise. We accepted a 30 month pay freeze after September 11 and the SARS outbreak. At the time we were promised to be "looked after when times were good again." Then came bird-flu. Now it’s “fuel prices”. Now, we haven’t received a pay increase since January 2006. Our enterprise bargaining agreement has been under negotiation for over 18 months! This equates to a 1.7% per annum pay-rise over the last 10 years. That is a long-term decline in anyone’s language, considering the RBA’s “target band” for CPI is 2% - 3%. All the while, Qantas profits have increased and management have received obscene pay-rises and bonuses off the backs of our sacrifices, losses of terms & conditions and hard work. Just how good does it need to get before we're "looked after"?

We are now insensitive to the years of threats to outsource maintenance overseas, because it’s already happened by stealth - and the process continues at an increasing rate, with the lapses in quality regularly making the news! We now choose not to work on our days off. We now choose to work strictly within the company policies and procedures, no matter how stupid, short-sighted, time-consuming, impractical, restrictive and inefficient.

Why? We have been abused for doing our jobs to the utmost whilst at work and refusing to work on our days off; we have been unable to take leave for months; we have been insulted with an inadequate pay offer; we have been lied to and threatened over outsourcing; and our improved efficiencies and attempts to further improve them have been ignored. We are tired of being under-trained, under-equipped and under-resourced, and yet we're still expected to work miracles daily by a disengaged yet desperate management. Our families suffer absences through long nights and weekends, but they accepted it as par for the course. Now they suffer more hardship as the bread-winners' work-loads, stresses and pressures build, leave is cancelled or denied, fatigue mounts and prices rise. Unfortunately, most of us are NOT earning $130,000 per year as claimed by our CEO. Since January 2006, CPI has risen over 4.2%. Cheaper imports and a stronger dollar have masked the real inflation in the essentials of life, like food and mortgages. All we want is respect, and a fair pay-rise that reflects a community standard of well above 3%. Qantas sells itself as the Spirit of Australia, yet there is a telling absence of that most Australian spirit, the spirit of the fair go.

Next time you fly Qantas and your flight is delayed and you receive a note accusing us of “industrial action and a go slow campaign”, please keep the facts in mind.

Regards and apologies for the rant. I feel a lot better now! J

[Syd eng]

Great Post Konehead,

Every single one of us should copy & forward that to all our friends/relatives.

Get the real picture out there.

[FluxCapacitor]

Excellent Post Konehead,

I couldn't agree more!!

This is exactly what the media and traveling public need to be reading to understand what really is happening.
:ok:

[acslame]

bloody good post konehead
Put in something about dixon and co's pay packets
and I will email it to everyone I know.
Could be the start of a really good chain mail
Well done old chap

[1746]

Konehead, this would be the best post I have read in a long time!!!!
Well done.
This truely captures the facts.
Fantastic work!!!!!

:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok:

[HotDog]

acslame, it is an excellent post. One of the reasons is that he declined to include your suggestion.:rolleyes:

Put in something about dixon and co's pay packets
and I will email it to everyone I know.

[shazza26]

Heard today the MAS Car 30 has been CCLD by CASA, dunno whether its true or not

[1me]

Konehead well done! :D

Your post is succinct and eloquent. Kudos to you!

[BigGun]

Well said Konehead (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/206453-konehead), and while all this has been happening no one has bothered to turn around and ask us how our sanity is these days.

Every time we go to work its a game of wondering what the hell have management done today. Its like a bad marriage, i think we should all plea battered wife's syndrome.

[Keg]

I reckon delete the bit about violations and it's good to send to every newpaper in the land.

[division1]

shazza, is that CAR30 CCLD, like cancelled by CASA?
another bite on the arse for the amazing management.

I heard the Kiwi lames just got 4.5% ++?

Qantas management have learnt nothing from their trans
tasman counterparts. I can see some parallels here...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/d-g-reporting-points/283562-air-nz-engineering-re-hire.html#post3406093

[woollcott]

Lufthansa Improves Pay Offer in Dispute With Workers (Update2)

By Chris Reiter
July 9 (Bloomberg) -- Deutsche Lufthansa AG (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=LHA%3AGR), Europe's second-biggest airline, offered German baggage handlers and cabin crews 6.7 percent more pay, a week after the employees staged a strike that led to at least 44 flight cancellations.
Lufthansa sweetened its earlier offer from a 5.5 percent raise in two steps during talks with labor union Ver.di, said Claudia Lange (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Claudia+Lange&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), a Frankfurt-based spokeswoman for the airline. The new proposal includes a one-time bonus equivalent to 1 percent of their annual salary and would cover 21 months, compared with 18 months for the initial offer, she said..................

[FULLY SICK DICK]

Konehead.....Well said. I would expect nothing less from a KONEHEAD!:ok:

[terraform]

I'm reliably informed that Air NZ's Heavy Maintenance division have recently signed off on a 4.5% per annum deal with NO trade offs...apparently it had something to do with the ongoing problems Air NZ were having with recruiting/retaining staff. sound familiar?

[FluxCapacitor]

Does anybody know how the ontime departures in and out of Syd today has been with WYD Syd 08 starting and all?

[Sunfish]

Excellent post Konehead!

[inthefluffystuff]

Excellent post Konehead BUT we must get that message OUT to the PUBLIC it is of no use for us commited to see it only. Please this is great but how do WE get it onto the PUBLIC forum for all to read and understand? once again great post.

[tail wheel]

This thread 271,778 views - that is not getting the message out to the public? :confused:

You may be very surprised at the people that read PPRuNe? :E

[chanel1234]

......

"In other news we have been informed that all Qantas management strike breakers have been added to a list held by MAS management for those engineers that are "unemployable". Their names sit next to the Newport strike breakers pilfered from Malaysia."


Fed Sec Can you elaborate on above?

Do you endorse these actions? your post could be interpreted as influencing Freedom of association.

How do you justify your comments?

What lists have been given to MAS, and by who?

You have some knowledge of this, can you enlighten us all?

FED SEC should ne banned....gooooone , given the current environment i think you are sailing close to the wind.

I suppose the Ombudsman will decide, i look foward to your response

[Ngineer]

Thanks for the info tailwheel:ok:

[Ngineer]

Yes Konehead. One very important point I am reminded of from your post; most of us are working three times harder than we were 5 years ago. That is 3 times the output and efficiency. And those people being rewarded for your hard work and efforts are management, not us. All we have received is an average of 1.7%pa for the last 10 years, and absolutely zip for the last 2 & 1/2 years.
All we are asking for is a fair outcome so we can afford to keep pace with the rising costs of living for the last few years.

[Dockie]

I read Chicken Littles' email yesterday and all I did was yawn and go
ho hum. Too many times GD, Too many!

[Keg]

Konehead's letter came through to my Facebook profile. I duly forwarded it on to all of my 'friends'. I don't have many friends so it won't spread the word too far but I hope it helps! :} :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I like it KH. Can we use it at all?

[indamiddle]

KH, great post. afew minor edits/additions as suggested by a few posts above and it would be a brilliant press release.
p.s. QF11 due depart last friday managed to leave last night, 4 minutes before curfew, only 4 and a half days late

[ejectx3]

A certain someone from a certain paper has suggested to another certain someone that thay are interested in publishing Koneheads letter along with the handout that QF are giving pax. Can anyone post it in this thread? or email it to me. PM me for email to send to...

[Konehead]

I like it KH. Can we use it at all?
Be my guest. I've made a few changes as suggested. I've copied and pasted it here with the suggested changes italicised. Thanks to all those who've made suggestions and for your support and encouragement.

MAINTAIN THE RAGE.

Anyone flying Qantas recently would have a good chance of suffering delays and cancellations. I would like to apologise on behalf of the engineers for the delays caused by our “go slow campaign”, but I can’t. Because it is not true. I can however, apologise on behalf of Qantas for the lies of a few who slander the 1,500 engineers who have been working harder than they ever have to keep aircraft flying safely.

Someone in Qantas management has authorised the distribution of letters and notes to affected passengers accusing us of a “go slow campaign”. The truth is that we are not working overtime on our days off, and we are fully complying with the policies and procedures written by Qantas Engineering management, which actually adds to our workload.

Unfortunately, Qantas Engineering has become overstretched. The last few years has seen the closure of Sydney Heavy Maintenance and the slow bleed of highly trained engineers through numerous rounds of redundancies, leaving Qantas Engineering with about 20% fewer engineers. Yet in the same time the fleet has expanded by about 20% - a clearly massive increase in productivity per engineer. Yet the current Qantas Engineering management (many of whom have no prior aircraft engineering or aviation management background) have introduced new policies and procedures that make it increasingly difficult to do our core job of fixing aircraft in a timely manner.

There have been repeated changes in organisational structure; a sharp decline in the number of spare parts held and an inadequate distribution of the remaining spare parts; outsourcing of numerous component repair functions that were once done in-house to unmatched standards of both turnover time, quality and reliability; a proliferation of lower and middle management roles; more engineers involved in “special projects” and other frivolous and unnecessary tasks rather than actually working on aircraft… the list goes on.

Over the years our productivity has increased despite these new policies and procedures. This is because in the past we worked around, massaged, bent and stretched them and sometimes outright ignored the sillier ones. We made do with the little we had left. We worked overtime on our days off and after our shift ended, and worked through our meal-breaks. We risked dismissal for violating company policies and procedures as we worked around the shortages of equipment caused by constant cost-cutting and the failures, impracticality and lack of common sense inherent in those policies and procedures. Why? To get the job done, because that’s what engineers do. It’s in our blood. We have made many representations to management in order to streamline the processes but they have not been implemented because the ideas are not their own. Decades of experience in the industry are systematically ignored by inexperienced managers.

And then there is the issue of training. We know all about Office Ergonomics, Diversity, Hearing Conservation and Fatigue Management. We have seen every tier of management and supervision pass through leadership training at a forest retreat at a cost of thousands per head, only to see the managers ignore everything they've learned and particiapate in a "buggery campaign" against the people they are supposed to lead. But the really important stuff has been lacking the last couple of years. Like being trained on the aircraft types in the fleet that we're supposed to work on, approvals for running the engines, tug-driving, operating heavy equipment, first aid and fuel tank entry to name a few. We're now in the ridiculous situation of not actually having the trained people to do the job we're there to do. Over $300 million has supposedly been invested in Qantas Engineering, but little of it has reached where it is needed.


The Sydney Heavy Maintenance engineers were promised that when the Avalon (Victoria) Heavy Maintenance facility opened, only “overflow” work would be sent to Avalon. Then they closed Sydney Heavy maintenance. We were assured that when Sydney Heavy Maintenance was closed down, only 5% of heavy maintenance would be outsourced offshore. Well now it’s running at over 20%, with aircraft being sent to Malaysia, Hong Kong, the Philippines, New Zealand and the USA for critical maintenance and still requiring work to be finished or redone when they arrive back in Australia.

The company has been crying poor since the Asian Economic Crisis, when we accepted a lower than standard pay-rise. We accepted a 30 month pay freeze after September 11 and the SARS outbreak. At the time we were promised to be "looked after when times were good again." Then came bird-flu. Now it’s “fuel prices”. Now, we haven’t received a pay increase since January 2006. Our enterprise bargaining agreement has been under negotiation for over 18 months! This equates to a 1.7% per annum pay-rise over the last 10 years. That is a long-term decline in anyone’s language, considering the RBA’s “target band” for CPI is 2% - 3%. All the while, Qantas profits have increased and management have received obscene pay-rises and bonuses off the backs of our sacrifices, losses of terms & conditions and hard work. Just how good does it need to get before we're "looked after"?

We are now insensitive to the years of threats to outsource maintenance overseas, because it’s already happened by stealth - and the process continues at an increasing rate, with the lapses in quality regularly making the news! We now choose not to work on our days off. We now choose to work strictly within the company policies and procedures, no matter how stupid, short-sighted, time-consuming, impractical, restrictive and inefficient.

Why? We have been abused for doing our jobs to the utmost whilst at work and refusing to work on our days off; we have been unable to take leave for months; we have been insulted with an inadequate pay offer; we have been lied to and threatened over outsourcing; and our improved efficiencies and attempts to further improve them have been ignored. We are tired of being under-trained, under-equipped and under-resourced, and yet we're still expected to work miracles daily by a disengaged yet desperate management. Our families suffer our absences through long nights and weekends, school holidays and public holidays, but they accepted it as par for the course. Now they suffer more hardship as the bread-winners' work-loads, stresses and pressures build, leave is cancelled or denied, fatigue mounts and prices rise. Unfortunately, most of us are NOT earning $130,000 per year as claimed by our CEO. Since January 2006, CPI has risen over 4.2%. Cheaper imports and a stronger dollar have masked the real inflation in the essentials of life, like food and mortgages. All we want is respect, and a fair pay-rise that reflects a community standard of well above 3%. Qantas sells itself as the Spirit of Australia, yet there is a telling absence of that most Australian spirit, the spirit of the fair go.

Next time you fly Qantas and your flight is delayed and you receive a note accusing us of “industrial action and a go slow campaign”, please keep the facts in mind.

Regards and apologies for the rant. I feel a lot better now! J

[hewlett]

Great work Konehead.

If just one passenger per delayed aircraft received a copy of this and then passed it to those in front, behind, or next to them, especially on a 13 hr flt .......hmmmm.But beware, I'm sure the stormtroopers are already mobilising to the battlements.

[satos]

Konehead's thread should be copied on a flyer,laminated and put on display at every port where Qantas flies so the public can see it.
Well done mate.

[shagonarock]

Hi Guys,,

While Heavy Maintenance has limited and only long term impact in this PIA
I think it’s safe to say that each and every Lame monitors and fully supports the current campaign for a fair pay rise and if we’re lucky, maybe even a little respect from a pack of greedy self serving manages.

There has always been a feeling in Heavy Maint that it is often overlooked in the bigger picture by the majority of engineering due to ACS generally enjoying the spotlight and being in the front line. However we also are suffering at the hands of Management that grossly neglect our needs and concerns.

Koneheads recent post was excellent and has moved me to add a little from a H/M
Perspective.

We have been constantly harassed and bullied by managers in the lead up to EBA’s that have no problem ignoring their own policies.
We voted in favour of our last EBA (3%) with the threat that if we did not we could loose the right to maintain our fleet of 737-800’s amongst other things.
It was hammered into us.

Also after using second rate and substandard docking (Scaffolding ) to overhaul our -800,s for several years now, we are told that new and permanent docking will depend on the outcome of this EBA. ( Clearly another threat )

A sharp decline in recent years of engineers ( both ame’s and lame’s ) has put the
remaining workforce under enormous pressure.
At present we are all stretched very thin across numerous aircraft in H/M
Priorities are changing on a daily basis and engineers find themselves being
pushed from one aircraft to another.
While endeavouring to carry out SC 2’s and HM 1 checks etc, jumping from one aircraft to another is very stressful to say the least.

Trying to pickup an entire zone and run with it when the aircraft is in a thousand pieces
and continue the check after many other guys before you have had a finger in the pie for
a short time, is very difficult for obvious reasons.
Trying at all times to stay compliant in these circumstances is a challenge.

One good example of this is the replacement and rigging of the Trailing edge Flaps a little while ago on a 737-400. We were asked to complete the rigging and carry out the required functional checks and independent inspections. Up until this point we had no involvement in this job, but now had to carry on despite the fact that no less than 13 different Lame signatures already appeared on the paperwork (not to mention the number of ame signatures). This is a less than ideal situation that has the potential for serious errors.
It has become almost a daily occurrence for us to pick up a huge pile of paper work and jobs that are half done, (with which we have had little or no previous input.) We need to be constantly vigilant to ensure that nothing has been missed or overlooked.


The pressure for us to succeed, to keep our jobs and to try and limit the amount of outsourcing with the hope of securing our long term employment with diminishing resources is evident everyday

We are also hampered by QF policies and procedures, and while some of which help and even keep us safe on the job, the majority just seem to increase our workload, create enormous frustration and only serves to slow productivity and efficiencies, which is strange, given that QF is always demanding the opposite.

Finally,,,, Many of the changes that have contributed to the successes in Heavy Maint in recent years have come from those within the department,,,, not it would seem from those manages earning the big bucks.

The above is all just the tip of a very large iceberg. I could go on forever,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

As we all know……. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, and Intimidation is not only alive and well at QF, it is deeply ingrained in Managements culture of dealing with its workforce.

Win or loose here Guys, At least we can hold our heads up and know that we have conducted ourselves with decency and fairness on our side.

[pablo m]

KH mate, you have brought together everything I and my workmates have felt, thought and said to a hostile management over years of pain;:ugh:
well done!!:ok:
I will be utilising this on the next shift:) - lets get it out there FedSEc!!

[woderwick]

Its odd how they shift work overseas to escape the half ar$@d policies they themselves put in place.Don't you think that just maybe, the whole reasoning behind their half ar$@d policies is to actually force the maintenance overseas? Create an unworkable local environment then throw their hands up in the air and say

"We just can't do the maintenance here efficiently, we are going to have to offshore"?

A little bit like the offer of A330 maintenance being done in Brisbane heavy maintenance as long as the employees took on some crap rosters and gave up their zed days. The LAME's voted yes much to the amazement of Big Nose. So what do they do? Offer nothing to the sheeties and then dock their leading hand the day before the vote. They never wanted A330's in Brisbane. All they needed was an excuse to say no. They couldn't bee seen by the public to be making that decision themselves so they created a situation where by the employees could be blamed.

Qantas is run by stupid people. Cunning, but stupid.

[Bumpfoh]

Brilliant old son.:D:D:D:D:D

Edited version sent to two close friends who respectively work for two major QF corporate clients and both travel frequently. Both have commented on their respective travel woes of late and are sympathetic to our cause. No doubt they will share it amongst their colleagues.;)

[ampclamp]

That is exactly what I was implying wod.
Designing and planning to fail and shift it os as we have no choice, blame whoever except themselves,costs, wages, oh woh is me,hand wringing chestbeating hair pulling !!...blah blah blah.

[murrayatwell]

Well done all, give it time and the bush telegraph will work. Time is on our side and certainly not on the company's. Sooner or later the truth will become apparent, the media will run wild, perhaps about the same time the ALAEA step up their media campaign and the lies perpetuated by managers will be exposed. It would seem Q Management currently in place have no understanding of the importance of being on the morale high ground and will be exposed for the charlatans they are. Lies, Lies and more Lies, heard the ALAEA are planning something big for the AGM, anyone else heard any detail. :ok:

[kotoyebe]

Scrotum Face Doom and Gloom email yesterday = WE determine payrises - 3%take it or leave it tomorrow.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a waste of time tomorrow.

[kotoyebe]

Well done KH. I'm happy to chip in some cash if the assoc wants to put a version of that letter in the papers - if they accept it! Also, it wouldn't hurt to start this message going around to the staff. I'm hearing some negative words about you guys being spoken by staff dealing with the irate public. Even the staff need to hear the truth and a lot more balance to the misinformation.

[AWB_Clerk]

Hi Konehead,

I am a first time poster on PPRuNe, but a long time reader.

I recently joined QF Engineering (yes, I expect you all to say "sucker", but hey, I'm here now so I will deal with it) after having worked in many different industries and careers over the years . It saddens me to see what is happening to this company.

I think your post is brilliant.

Get it out there into the public.

Whilst I am not in a position to join your cause at this time, I fully support it. Yes, it is about wages, which is very important, but I feel that it is becoming more and more about the shocking state of the company itself is in under the current regime.

I hope this all goes well for you all, for everyones sake at QF, not just mine.

Maintain the Rage.

...oh, and FOG.

[vortsa]

That's interesting, is this management looking to go to an early grave. They already have a cancer growing from within. This is going to be a real negative PR decision one would think?

[Collando]

Oil dropped a massive $6 a barrel yesterday, is this the beginning of the end for GDs weak defence?

[Clipped]

There has always been a feeling in Heavy Maint that it is often overlooked in the bigger picture by the majority of engineering due to ACS generally enjoying the spotlight and being in the front line. However we also are suffering at the hands of Management that grossly neglect our needs and concerns.


None of us has forgotten Heavy Maintenance. Just read the many posts that continually refer to the demise of H245 and the current outsourcing. The degradation in the reliability of these planes is directly a result of this. Never forget JVs statement of how proud he was to close down H245, what business acumen. And where has he been hived off to now?


United we stand. Maintain the rage. FOG.

[griffin one]

Great post KH.Handed it to a friend of a friend, who,s uncle handed it to his brother, who than handed it to the wife of his sister.Everyone get the idea! Copy it, Paste it, Fwd it, Make paper aeroplanes out of it. Because it is sure to fly.
Once again full support and fantastic post..

[ampclamp]

Its not the start of cheap oil collando but I think the peak (for now) is close or has been barring a serious shooting match in the middle east.
USA is economically stuffed.Euro zone struggling.China doing well but growth moderating.
Our timing is crappy but stuff 'em, they've had our wage rises as a temporary loan for years now, time to pay.

[Big M]

Excerpt from Michael West article in todays SMH. Based around the final payout of an executive from Oxiana.
No policy of 3% 'signed off by the board' when it comes to exec wages - or at Q for that matter.
As the last few paragraphs spell out - as we speak the Q exec's (and many others) will be re-writing their pay agreements so those bonuses keep rolling on in - even in the 'bad-times'. Easy, just change the trigger on how your bonus gets paid.


Full article here.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/crunch-time-for-executive-pay-20080715-3fgv.html?sssdmh=dm16.324260 (http://business.smh.com.au/business/crunch-time-for-executive-pay-20080715-3fgv.html?sssdmh=dm16.324260)

Crunch time for executive pay

The whole point of performance pay is performance, not retirement. Retaining Hegarty's services as a non-exec will no doubt be cited as rationale by Oz Minerals, as will the fact that an "independent'' consultant had been given its imprimatur.

The first point is reasonable, the second not. If anyone can cite an example of a remuneration consultant which had ever advised that an executive was paid too much, please respond to the email address below.

RCs, as they are affectionately known, are lackeys who tell boards what they want to hear. In this case it is Mercers. It is a preposterous notion that someone who is paid a fee to tell someone how much money they are worth will come up with the wrong answer.

It is also preposterous that boards can outsource their responsibility to price labour in a market they know better than anyone - their own.

While Hegarty's remuneration may be the subject over a little discontent by some Oxiana institutional shareholders, he is one of the heroes of the market.

This year, in the first bear market for many years, it is crunch time for executive pay.

Shareholders are losing money. Will executives and directors, the stewards of their savings, also feel the pinch? Or will they still outperform their shareholders on the return front?

Already the "independent'' remuneration consultants will be divining novel pay structures to skirt around the annoying fact of a declining stock price. Already they will be looking at novel ways to justify higher pay despite falling shareholder returns.

The early indications strongly suggest a "de-risking'' of executive pay. That's French for we'll take the performance goodies when things are on the up, but now things are gloomy we'll lock in stable income thank you.

Watch for rising short-term incentives (STIs) and an increase in performance shares rather than options.

[email protected]

[Ngineer]

Our timing is crappy but stuff 'em

This could'nt be further from the truth. Remember that QF should have resolved this issue at the start of 2007. This EBA has expired over 18 months ago. I am sure when the oil price subsides, QF management will find another way to justify not negotiating in good faith. In fact if oil prices were not high at the moment, you can bet your a#*e that they would be blaming the credit crunch and the poor health of the world's economy.

[ampclamp]

Each to their own, I respect that.
I think we should have nailed them back in January when we had the chance & things looked pretty rosey all round.Thats not hindsight ,I said the same back then.

So , we fight the fight we have in front of us.

next excuse will be carbon trading.

I am not across the full political considerations but dont doubt this goes all the way to the PM's office and we do need to tread a fine line or else Labor's political imperatives will squash our own.

Labor owe Qantas or its execs no favours and we do have some rope but not so much as to have the press label Labor as unions lackeys hence the softly softly campaign and no WYD stoppages.

Just mho and remain committed to winning 100%

[Ngineer]

Cool bro :ok:

Chicken little will always come up with something.

[lamem]

Konehead just received your letter in an email from a work mate. I have given it to my wife to forward to the thousands in her address book she is constantly emailing. The snowball is starting to get bigger and gain speed.

[ElPerro]

Remember that QF should have resolved this issue at the start of 2007. This EBA has expired over 18 months ago

What was offered back then?

[PTTSwitch]

You Rock KoneHead....Awesome.

Same from me also, emailing, copying, handing out. You never know where copies are going to end up!

[Ngineer]

One thing to remember, Qantas is in a sweet spot due to the fruits of your labour. Despite what chicken little is saying, we truly deserve recognition for our hard work. There is no better time than right now, when other airlines are faltering and ours is going so strong. Our management know this, and I refuse to fall for their crap excuses any longer. Guys, don't sell yourselves short!!!

[Ngineer]

What was offered back then?

Gday Elperro, what was offered back in 2007 was a package that had the potential to cut alot of LAME wages enormously. These were known as the "XPT" clause and the "definition of a LAME" clause. (Along with 3% of course). This would have well and truly put us behind inflation.

Could you imagine a young LAME getting a mortgage and starting a family, then to find 3 years down the track that his wage is axed because the company no longer considers him a LAME? People cannot live with this level of financial insecurity. It is unfair and wrong.

[ElPerro]

We risked dismissal for violating company policies and procedures as we worked around the shortages of equipment caused by constant cost-cutting and the failures, impracticality and lack of common sense inherent in those policies and procedures. Why? To get the job done

The squadron involved in a Black Hawk helicopter crash in 2006 took higher risks during operations while safety standards deteriorated, had a 'can-do' attitude

Any spot the parallel. One mans work-around to get the job done is another mans deterioration of safety standards.

The Blackhawk pilot made an error due to a systemic reduction in acceptable standards. You (Konehead) are openly admitting to systemic violations by engineers. Systemic not because of the company policy, but because of the attitude of engineers. :=

I can't believe some of you want to actually forward that. Seriously, has anyone reported this to CASA?

[Ngineer]

So your 4.5% behind by your own action?

No mate. 1.5% is what we have averaged pa over the last 10 years. Our last was 3% Jan 2006. If we accepted the 3% on offer, the average over 10 years would still be way below 3%, under inflation.

The low figure of 1.5% is the result of the goodwill we have shown QF over the years when times were so called "tough".

has anyone reported this to CASA

Yes.

PS; your comments regarding the Blackhawk, I thought the same thing when listening to the report.:ok:

[ElPerro]

PS; your comments regarding the Blackhawk, I thought the exact thing when listening to the report.

Are the engineer's still committing violations?

[hadagutfull]

NO THEY ARE NOT. ( unless they are doing things "alternatively"):oh:
Cant you tell.... Look at the delays.


But generally speaking, is applying common sense to stupidity a "violation"... :ugh:
Thanks management for helping me see the light.... I have always been diligent in everything I did on an aircraft, but with the guidance of your good book (PPM)...:yuk:
.
NOW IT IS DONE WITH FORENSIC DETERMINATION.:ok:

[1me]

Are the engineer's still committing violations?

Are you serious mate? :ugh:

[Ngineer]

Not commiting violations, no. The "can do" attitude of the engineer I was referring to.

[ElPerro]

I guess they stopped (the work arounds) with the Industrial action.

[The Black Panther]

Originally posted by El Perro: Systemic not because of the company policy, but because of the attitude of engineers. Originally Posted by Konehead :
as we worked around the shortages of equipment caused by constant cost-cutting and the failures, impracticality and lack of common sense in those policies and procedures. inherent iAnyone spot the parallel?

I can't.

[Take five]

QF11 due depart last friday managed to leave tonight, 4 minutes before curfew, only 4 and a half days late

QF11 3600 minutes late

QF127 295 minutes late

QF5 965 minutes late

QF31 350 minutes late

QF1 295 minutes late


Delay costs of $6000 per minute.

$33,030,000 and that’s just one day out of SYD

[1me]

Why would we want to circumvent company policy? Afterall the people who institute the policy know best...don't they?

The best way to show that something is ineffective is to use it!

I'm convinced QF own shares in Johnson & Johnson...bandaids everywhere!

[The Black Panther]

Delay costs of $6000 per minute.Isn't it unbelievable that Qantas still uses this pressure to push engineers to work faster. Of course they would be standing in front of the "TAKE 5" poster while they reminded you of the costs you are creating.

[1me]

Delay costs of $6000 per minute.

Take five where do these costs come from?

[lordofthewings]

Elperro, you are a fuc.wit....Sorry moderators, but when people like this spanker start talking utter crap, they deserve to be called what they truly are...

[Konehead]

Elperro

Are you an engineer? Do you work for Qantas? Do you know the sort of thing I'm talking about? Some of these policies and procedures are bullsh*t put there to protect the ar$es of managers or to justify their positions. They are not legally enforceable by CASA.
the kinds of procedures I'm talking about are:

I've seen Domestic guys wingwalking a B737 between two hangars in a space you could tow two B737s through, with a horn and a wand held high. Absolutely pointless kneejerk reaction to B744s getting pranged under tow.
exiting the aircraft via overwing exits and walking along the wing to do inspections on the wing upper surface without safety gear. Perfectly safe so long as you stay well away from the edge, and in decades, no-one has actually fallen off a wing at QF doing these inspections. But now we have harnesses but not the training to use them, or the equipment to attach them to
dodgy fuel tank entry courses delivered by Qantas Engineering which actually breach corporate policy.
engine run approvals allowed to lapse and not enough recurrency trainingThere are SO many examples of this kind of rubbish floating around the workplace, the QEPM & Corporate Policy Manual. Anyone out there care to enlighten ElPerro with more examples of procedural nonsense from your own section? Specifically the stuff you take with a grain of salt, bend, stretch, massage or plain ignore?

[ElPerro]

I think you missed the point of my question Black Panther. Konehead and NGineer said that the maint policies were being worked around.

I wasn't arguing why you guys were forced to do that. Just that it was occurring as you guys have a can do attitude. Not sure why you are so defensive about the matter of work-arounds. Just trying to work out what management are putting you through. Jeez you guys are defensive!

[Ngineer]

This message is hidden because ElPerro is on your ignore list.


Looks like another troll.

[Twitter n Bisted]

ElPerro

Wind up alert.
His writings seem very much like a journo.
Can not understand the concept so he knit picks at phrases rather than debating the theme of the document.

ElPerro, Good bye

[Take five]

1Me.
The $6000 per minute delay costs figure came from one of our Syd managers during a feedback meeting.
When he was quizzed on how they worked it out he said it included things like missed connections, accommodation, meals, lost revenue, crewing changes, penalties, etc, etc, etc

[ElPerro]

Twitter,

I understand the concepts fine. I'm no journo but to be honest I don't care who you think I am. I'm questioning you because when I pilot an aircraft I care to know the logic you apply to when and when you won't apply published engineering procedures.

I'm not the one saying that I'm not obeying company procedures. I was attempting to ascertain why you wouldn't comply with them. Given the defensive response I think I have my answer.

You clearly believe you know better than the people that put certain policy into place. That's fine and well. You may, you may not - I'm not debating that.

I don't believe ignoring policy - as Konehead clearly indicated is the answer. Either Konehead was right or was making things up.

If he is correct, you stand guilty of violating company procedure that was put in place for safety reasons.

If he is incorrect then he doesn't know what is going on.

If you wish to argue that you know safety policy better than those writing it - that's fine - just admit it.

He admitted it, Ngineer backed it up.

Wouldn't the correct thing be to comply with the policy and challenge it? I don't see how safety is served by ignoring and working around a policy you don't agree with. After all, if you know the maint procedures better and they would allow the company to reduce the time spent on maint. (i.e. the reason why Konehead and Ngineer admitted to working around) the company would accept them quickly and commend you for making engineering more efficient.

As a pilot I want to know the aircraft is safe to fly. I'd prefer to know what procedures you are working around because you think they are crap. If certain procedures aren't required for safety and make the business less efficient - I can't find a single reason why the company wouldn't adopt them.

Konehead's post was supposed to be some "call to arms". Instead all it indicated is that he appears to not apply with company engineering procedures - yet at the same time ALAEA is saying that work stoppages and the resulting delays are because engineers wish to ensure that safety isn't compromised. You may not like it - well PM Konehead about it for actually putting it in writing.

[1me]

Thanks Take five..

ElPerro.. you insinuated that we were committing violations and negligence in the course of our employment; acts that compromise the safety of the aircraft.. And you wonder why we are defensive?

We have had more than our fair share of troublemakers/trolls/manangement stooges in this thread who's sole aim is to stir up strife.

Whilst the majority of us would like to give someone the benefit of the doubt, I think you'll find that most engineers suffer fools lightly. Now I don't know if you fit in one of the aforementioned categories..If you do then your footing in this thread may be a little rocky. If you don't then great; just maybe think about the tone of the language you use in your posts, as you may illicit unwelcome responses should you go like a bull at a gate.

[ElPerro]

Mate I was happy to read.. until I read Konehead's post saying that he applied workarounds.

I didn't insinuate anything. A violation is when you deliberately ignore / break a rule. Konehead wrote it and backed it up again with some examples.

I find that disturbing. I'm not saying all engineer's commit violations, but Konehead (backed up by Ngineer) has openly admitted it - and published it in what he calls an open letter to the public.

So yes, I question why you are defensive when I further question Koneheads violations. You're directing you anger at the wrong person. Konehead said that engineers where committing violations - I didn't insinuate it, I just took him at his word.

[1me]

Ok so you are a pilot ElPerro. Good. Know that as LAME's we would never do anything that would compromise the safety of the aircraft!! It's as simple as that.

If something goes wrong and the proverbial hits the fan and people die and it can be proven that it was because of something that the LAME did..who do you think gets charged with manslaughter and spends time behind bars?

We take our work very seriously!! Just as I'm sure, you do.

[indamiddle]

could someone give the instructions for copy and paste so i can save kh's post. i know how to highlight it and click on edit then click on copy but i am stuffed if i know what to do next. i have set up a file but don't know how to get it into it. any help appreciated as i want to email it on

[1me]

And ElPerro, I'm not angry at you at all. My heart rate has barely even raised.. I think you may be confusing the issue.

For example: Corporate safety have written a policy with regard to Confined Space Entry (fuel tanks etc) that stipulates the requirements for personnel engaged in this work. The CSE training that we have been undertaking at the company's direction does not comply fully with the requirement set out in the Policy manual. Therefore every time a person enters a confined space they are violating Corporate Safety Policy.

Or.. sometimes the correct access stand may not be available and so we "make do" with what we have available. Yet the company says that without the "correct" stand available the job should not be performed.. Again a violation..

[domo]

VIPER
The rules of engagement are not
flexible. They exist for your
safety. You will obey them.
Is that clear?


the rules of qantas exist for your safty and the safty of others obey them or you will be history

ok viper (ElPerro) we know no one can win when the safty high ground is taken

[WheelsandBrakes]

Wouldn't the correct thing be to comply with the policy and challenge it?

That's what we are doing now and the company is accusing us of "Going Slow"!

[Konehead]

Not driving on a marked roadway on the tarmac is a violation of company procedure, yet everyone does it. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it happens, it's not serious and people will take a shortcut from A to B by taking the shorcut, rather than tripling the distance of their journey by taking the marked roadway.
Many trivial "violations" of company policy happen every day, even by managers who are violating the company's harrassment, discrimination and equal opportunity policies to name a few.
They are not safety related, but they do allow us to do our jobs more efficiently, as can be seen now that we're following them all to the letter.

[NAS1801]

Here is a top example. Heavy Maintenance management in Brissy, without consultation, made a local are procedure that during movement of flight controls, the "LAME in charge" must be giving clearance from the ground via service interphone. (Forget the exact wording. This procedure didn't last long for obvious reasons).

Now you can imagine how stupid this procedure is, when most crews are manned by one or two LAME's, 2 or 3 apprentices, one or two AME tradesmen and 2 or 3 contractors.

Excellent example of a procedure implimented by an out of touch manager.

[NAS1801]

Can someone inform ElPasso about the witches hat incident in Cairns? I'm not too familiar but I believe this it a prime example too.

[Millet Fanger]

Sorry Oldpaso, I don't buy your 'pilot' story.

I have spent plenty of time discussing maintenance issues and "work around" strategies with pilots during my career and I can't remember coming across one who is so pedantic about semantics as you.

On the history of this thread a 'pilot' has not carried on like you have today.

I do know your style though. Out of the Ash the phoenix has arisen. Haven't you posted as sobast, lamea380, etc, etc, in a previous life.

[Toolpants]

Anti-smoking lobby groups have attacked a move by Qantas to resume inflight cigarette sales as a "greedy cash grab" at the expense of good health.
The national airline reintroduced tobacco sales on board this month, almost 10 years after they were stopped.
Legislation prohibits the packs from being advertised in the shopping catalogue but it is legal to stack them on the duty-free trolley and wheel them through the cabin.
A letter recently sent to Qantas staff by management states: "It's vital that duty free carts are taken out into the economy cabin, with the cigarettes displayed prominently on top."
Qantas has defended the move as a response to customer demand, but lobby groups argue it is an unacceptable return to the "bad old days".
"At a time when Australian governments are moving to put tobacco displays out of sight to protect young people in particular, Qantas has gone backwards," said Anne Jones, chief executive of Action on Smoking and Health.
"Retail tobacco display is a powerful form of advertising, especially in association with a highly respected brand name like Qantas, and research shows it normalises and encourages young people to smoke."
She said the group had received several complaints from air host staff concerned they have to "push tobacco as part of their job".
Another group, Quit, joined the criticism, with executive director Fiona Sharkie labelling it a "greedy cash grab".
"International flights are an opportunity for smokers to give up smoking, but having cheap cigarettes promoted to them by Qantas in flight completely undermines this opportunity," Ms Sharkie said.
"Perhaps the flying kangaroo should be renamed the cancer kangaroo, such is their insistence on the inflight sale and display of a product that will ultimately kill more than half of long-term users."
But Qantas Group general manager of customer product and services Lesley Grant defended the move, which she said was motivated by passenger demand.
"The availability of cigarettes reflects customer demand," Ms Grant said.
"Regardless of what the product might be, if we see changes in demand we review our product range."

[SpannerTwister]

Here's an example I saw recently of an engineer taking a short-cut, spot the error ........................

He was required to check the engine oil level on #1 engine on a B738.

1) He waited until approximately 10 minutes after shut-down.
2) He went to the right-hand side of #1 engine fan-cowl
3) He opened the oil tank access door
4) He looked at the sight gauge and determined that the engine required two tins of oil
5) He opened two tins of oil
6) He removed the oil cap, noting the restraining chain was intact
7) He tipped the two cans of oil into the tank
8) He looked at the cap o-ring, determined it to be serviceable
9) He refitted the cap, ensuring the cap lever was correctly locked
10) He gave the tank & cap a final look and closed the access door
11) As he walked away with the tins he glanced under the engine to ensure there was not a pool of oil under the engine
12) He entered into the tech-log "2" in the #1 engine space, put a line through #2 and APU to signify he did not look at them, and signed and dated the boxes correctly.


SpannerTwister

[SpannerTwister]

Just off the top of my head...........

1) He has not recorded the batch number / GRN of the oil used
2) He has not entered into the tech-log words to the effect..."#1 engine oil level checked in accordance with Boeing Maintenance Manual 12-13-11
3) Had he of done the check correctly, he would of needed to of found the total flight times (check the Trip Record) since the last time oil was added and calculated the oil consumption
3) He did not use the required cloth (Cotton wiper..cheesecloth gauze) to clean the oil scupper prior to removal of the cap. Any clean rag will not do, it MUST be a cheesecloth gauze !!
4) He did not do a check for fuel in the oil
5) He did not use a calibrated (and record the PEO number of) a timer to ensure that the time he checked the oil was indeed between 5 and 30 minutes after shutdown

NOW THE REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF

6) He did not log onto the Qantas ADOC system and access the manual prior to doing this task
7) He did not print out this task and have these printouts with him while he was doing the job
7a) If he had "recently" done the job and was using the printout from last time, he did not access the computer as above and check the currency of his information

Any other examples of those bad engineers taking short-cuts ?



SpannerTwister

[Anulus Filler]

I remember the days when just before I'd tow an aircraft, I would get my colleague to throw the gear pins down. I'd then climb on the rim of a wheel or even a wheel itself and then insert the pins.

How silly of me. Now I go upstairs myself and get the pins. I come back down then walk 3 bays to find an appropriate stand. I then return and fit the pins. I then walk the stand back to where I picked it up. Then comes the entry for the pins in the T/L (as I always have).

The whole process has now taken 6 minutes instead of 1. But apparently we are on a go slow.....:{

Multiply this stupidity with the dozens of tasks you are required to do in a day.:D.....Maybe if we had more stands.

[WheelsandBrakes]

Anulus Filler,

Of course you were on a go-slow - you should have been running!

[Torqueman]

Multiply this stupidity with the dozens of tasks you are required to do in a day.:D.....Maybe if we had more stands.

Good to see you're making a stand though Anulus Filler. :E

[employes perspective]

you might find the engineers will be given redundancy,just that you might have to wait a few years to actual leave.Need to first catch up with the backlog of work first..:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:








2000 Qantas jobs axed as fuel prices bite

By Geoff Easdown July 17, 2008 12:01am

Petrol pain causes mass Qantas job losses
Flight staff, senior management on hit list
Outlook for airline industry dire, Qantas says QANTAS will slash about 2000 jobs next week as the national carrier seeks to offset cost pressures caused by the crippling fuel crisis.
The belt tightening also will include cutting loss-making flight routes from both domestic and international schedules.
The economic situation confronting the airline is so grim senior managers, flight crew, engineers and ground staff will be included on the hit list.
The cuts are expected to affect 5 per cent of the carrier's 36,000-strong worldwide workforce.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon told workers this week rocketing fuel prices had changed forever the way Qantas did business.
Qantas last month pruned about 100 staff, cut services and agreed to retire four aged 747 jumbos.


Since then, the cost of refined jet kerosene has leapt even higher on the Singapore index, the benchmark for Asia-Pacific airlines, from $US171.45 a barrel to the July 3 record of $US181.43.
Jet fuel yesterday traded at $US175.25.
The fact fuel continues to hover above $US170 a barrel means the Qantas and Jetstar fuel bill will double to more than $2 billion this financial year.
Next week's cuts come as the airline and the International Airline Pilots Association agreed to a new pay deal that will hand long-haul pilots an annual 3 per cent pay rise, plus a 1 per cent increase in company superannuation contributions each year for the next five.
The pay deal is expected to put pressure on the airline's 1500 engineers, who have taken industrial action in support of a 5 per cent pay rise, which Qantas argues is outside its wages policy.
"The overall view of our industry is dire," Mr Dixon said.

[Sunfish]

I note that it is alleged that a former British American Tobacco executive has just been appointed to the Qantas Board.

If this is true, it is indicative of what to me is a serious breach of corporate ethics.

What type of person would knowingly work for a company engaged in the manufacture and sale of cigarettes, knowing what they do to people, and the legal shenanigans the industry gets up to to try and avoid responsibility for their actions?

Why would anyone want to associate with someone who has participated in such an industry?

And exactly what would justify employing such a "morally impaired" person on the Board of a public company?

To put it another way, people in the tobacco industry are turds. Why appoint one to the Qantas Board?

[Negative Feedback]

Why appoint him to the board? He comes from an industry that promotes untruths in the face of overwhelming contrary data, is used to cover ups, has an alternate set of ethics, outsources, exploits the world's cheapest labour, actively seeks to alter government policy, and is in decline despite of this.

He is perfect for QF.

[Ngineer]

Outlook for airline industry dire, Qantas says

Right on cue, in true "chicken Little" style. Expect more of the same.

[Galley Raider]

http://truthorlies1.zoomshare.com/files/Delay_Lies.jpg

[vortsa]

Quote:
Multiply this stupidity with the dozens of tasks you are required to do in a day......Maybe if we had more stands.



Good to see you're making a stand though Anulus Filler.

At least we are all standing together now.

[Socket]

Hmmm, let me see if I can find the logic here. LAME's have stopped doing overtime, this has caused massive disruption throughout the whole of Qantas as there are not enough engineers to do their tasks without doing wads of overtime.

Dixon wants to get rid of more engineers in his latest slice and dice.

That should help enormously, no more delays because we all know that with even less engineers more work can be done in normal time. Overtime will no longer be needed.

Nope, can't see the logic there.:ugh:

I guess that is why GD gets paid the big bux. He is obviously operating at a mental level way above us normal human beings.:eek:

[Gen Y]

Has anyone got accurate details of the "sweeteners" in the AIPA Long-Haul EBA in-principal agreement?

[Acute Instinct]

Continue the 'overtime ban' until a resolution is reached or we are retrenched. Let's not give any room for the company to sully our reputation. At least when this is all over, one way or the other, the truth will read, 'The company collapsed because it was managed beyond its means, an unsuccessful application to force engineers to divorce their families and live at the airport failed. Overtime is optional, we are exersizing our option'.
To force employees to work overtime beyond the Australian Working Week of 38 hours could and should be prosecuted. This is the simple, single message that needs to be conveyed. To force overtime is akin to slavery, regardless of remuneration. The ALAEA fought long and hard at great expense to afford us total legal protection for our right to decline overtime requests. Thats it! We are not working overtime! Let this be debated by the Australian public. Let them decide. And finally, let management finally get around to doing what it is they are paid for, managing this tragic mess they have created. If they wanted our help, they would have asked, the right way.
There will be no blaming others, the $hit is on your shoes. Engineers refused to trade their time with family for cash. Engineers refuse to sell their souls to the 'roo' like you have. Engineers just want to come to work, free of intimidation, fix aircraft better than anywhere else in the world, take a days pay for a days work, then go home to their families. Management cannot understand how an employee can just leave his work at the gate. This is simply referred to as sanity. I do not work overtime, whether during PIA or not, and no one will ever force me to give up my time with my partner and children. For what, to service this disgusting bunch of standover merchants. To the ALAEA, thank you for standing up for us, and giving me the strength to say no more. No more lies, no more hidden agendas, no more buggery. Managers everywhere, just manage, its time to show us how good you are, the engineers have already proved their worth over 85 years, aussie greatness. How would you rate your first 3 years? Like some, the company has been working overtime to afford and pay the mortgage, the overtime has now all dried up. Shouldn't have over committed. That's what the managers have told us when giving their condescending financial advice. Its not our problem they said. It is now.

The most concerning aspect for management must be, even if we settled, and even if the overtime went back to previous levels, could we pull this plane out of this vertical dive. Again, let me repeat, we are legally declining overtime. That's it. Oh, and being docked 4 hours of our normal pay for refusing. This will be debated in public. Disgraceful.

[The Black Panther]

Has anyone got accurate details of the "sweeteners" in the AIPA Long-Haul EBA in-principal agreement?This is a kick in the guts for our campaign and GD would have a smug look. As far as I know all pilots move up to the pay of a 747-400 captain pay level plus 3%.

Perhaps a pilot could explain the full offer?

This proposal still hasn't been accepted by the membership though, just by APIA executive.

[Konehead]

We wouldnt discuss the details of our deal here, if it was a headline 3% but lots of sweeteners. To do so would jeopardise the deal. Don't expect a pilot to discuss a deal that hasn't been viewed by most pilots, let alone voted on.

[Dockie]

Acute Instinct
Continue the 'overtime ban' until a resolution is reached or we are retrenched.

I totally agree!

[domo]

Continue the 'overtime ban' until a resolution is reached or we are retrenched.

settle the eba up to june 2008 so the vr's can get a better package,
never do o/t again if they cr people

sc@# workforce to be sacked
"A" checks to return to sydney

[Keg]

G'day lads,

There are far too many changes in the in principle agreement to try and explain it via this forum. There is also the fact that most QF pilots who have seen any documentation are working off a draft from a month ago and that things in it have changed in the recent couple of weeks or so I'm told. In short, no one other than a select few know for sure at the moment. Don't take anything that anyone says on PPRUNE about it as gospel in the short to medium term because they just don't know- that includes my comments below. Don't get distracted by our EBA which is of a very different structure to any EBA which has ever gone before.

The one comment I will address is that we'll all be paid as 744 drivers. Not strictly true. There is a provision for 'fleet pay' of sorts but it phases in over the next seven years so you won't see the 767 drivers magically jump to the 744 rate. The 767 drivers will get a pay rise above the 3% but 744 drivers essentially don't. A380 drivers who may have expected a higher pay rate than the 744 will get the same as the 744. This also locks in the pay rates for the 787/A350/777 as well.

Comments beyond that would would be ill advised.

[chanel1234]

The campaign is lost

Why?

Lack of decisive action at the appropriate time i.e. January/February

[Red Baron]

Am I hearing correctly? :confused:

Is this another 'Brain Wave' idea from one Dumb Bell? :confused:

If this is true I wish the guys from QDS the best of luck when they try and put Kevin's aircraft back together.

To the 'Dockies' make sure you follow local area procedures, you know, everything is labelled, paper work is up to date and make sure everything is put away! :E

Maintain the rage...

[alpine57]

AIPA has reached an EBA Agreement yesterday. The wage increase is 3% per annum and a 5 year deal ( following the FAAA's 5 yr deal).

Engineers are now in a dangerous situation.

Dixon has to only lock you out and threaten compulsory redundancy.

The most powerful qantas union has accepted the 3%.

Guys BEWARE!!

[K9P]

Hey! I'd be happy with 3% of an average Qantas Pilot's annual income. He! He!

[UP D Date]

Alpine, more FUD!! What a crock of sh!te. :rolleyes:

[chanel1234]

Qantas to cancel 3000 jobs

John Durie | July 17, 2008


QANTAS is set to bring forward a planned statement unveiling job cuts that are now tipped to run as high as 3000, but of course not all of those will be redundancies.

The job cuts, to be announced as early as tomorrow and first flagged in The Australian last Friday, will be the biggest since an equal number of staff positions were cut after the SARS outbreak of 2002.

High fuel costs are the direct cause and company boss Geoff Dixon has gone out of his way to try to explain to his workforce that the world has truly changed when oil prices rise by 45 per cent in seven months.

Just how the striking engineers react is another question, when you consider they have imposed an overtime ban, seeking 5 per cent pay increases.

The union adopted a clever strategy of limiting the impact of the ban to overtime so the troops got their normal pay, but the airline was forced to cancel flights, thereby testing the loyalty of its business-customer base.

Now is not the time to upset a customer base that is paying top dollar for seats and at the same time facing massive dislocation due to flight cancellations.

Dixon is taking a hard line refusing to accommodate the wage claims, noting they would add at least $360 million to the company’s wage bill if applied across the board.

The job cuts follow capacity cuts by an airline that has already chopped 10 per cent of its capacity and so doesn’t need as many people to service fewer flights.

While economies outside the US are holding up, higher fuel prices will hit demand at some point, putting more pressure on the airline.

From a business perspective the plan is to cut operations to a bare minimum, which sets it up perfectly for a takeoff when the economy picks up and fuel prices inevitably fall.

Based on a fuel price of $US130 a barrel, Qantas’ fuel bill in the 2009 financial year will be $5.7 billion, three times

___________________________________________________________

Note the heading

the key word being CANCEL

I hear Newport Aviation is recruiting maybe some of you might need to line up.

[Clipped]

Engineers are now in a dangerous situation.

Yes. Many years of mismanagement.

Oh Alpine .. Beware of what?

We're taking a stand in the face of constant threats. If it's a mass redundancy, so be it - long live the Roo.

[The Black Panther]

The most powerful qantas union has accepted the 3%.


No we haven't.

[ejectx3]

"accepted the 3%......"

Garbage....... littering the streets

[Bolty McBolt]

The most powerful qantas union has accepted the 3%.

Panther...No we haven't !! :ok:

Agreed :ok:

[ejectx3]

Judging by the reactions on Qroom, an EBA for long haul pirates that offers 3% (less than inflation) with tradeoffs (ie a real wage reduction whilst trading away conditions) is going to be laughed all the way to a resounding NO vote.

Watch this space....

[Clipped]

QANTAS has reached an in-principle agreement with unions on a new wages deal for its long haul pilots.

The agreement with the Australian International Pilots' Association allows for a 3 per cent yearly wage rise until 2013, and follows 18 months of negotiations.

"This is a significant agreement that locks in the company's 3 per cent per annum wages policy for a further five years,'' Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said.

As well, all Qantas pilots will now have part of their remuneration linked to the company's performance.

"Under this new agreement, the difference between the three per cent per annum wage increase and CPI (consumer price index), along with a proportion of overtime payments, will be paid out in a similar way to executive bonuses,'' Mr Dixon said.

The agreement re-writes decades of accumulated employment conditions and rules into one simplified document.

"It finalises the pay arrangements for the launch of the (Airbus) A380 aircraft later this year, with multiple pay rates rationalised and new rules on career progression that will reduce the cost of training associated with pilots moving between aircraft types,'' Mr Dixon said.

The agreement comes into effect when it is voted on by the Qantas pilots.


Sounds like 3% plus lots of sweetners, but is that for ALL pilots?

Oh, we had a simplified document too .. turned out to be an attempt to sabotage our membership. Read that agreement very carefully. If the numbers add up, well good for you.

We asked for nothing more than a FAIR wage outcome.

[hadagutfull]

"Look, we have no plans to replace our workforce..........."
HAHAHAHAHAHAA...


Guess who said that on a radio interview.....A forked tongued :mad:

[griffin one]

Beware our flying friends. The A.L.A.E.A had an in principle agreement with the company too.It was a shame,That when the agreement was to be put into print, That the company decided to change everything in it at the eleventh hour and not actually furnish a document at all.So while letters are given to pax regarding said eba proposals. No lame has actually seen a document

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

To All Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

An In Principal Agreement has been reached on the EBA 8 between Qantas and the ALAEA.

Effective immediately all industrial action will stop and LAME’s should resume work in accordance with normal practice.

We will communicate the terms of this agreement on Monday the 21st of July.

Sue Bussell
Group General Manager
Industrial relations
Qantas Airways Limited

Steve Purvinas
Federal Secretary
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers
Association


Enjoy your weekend guys. I know I will. Please don't call the Execs they are tidying a few bits up, announcements Monday.

[Ngineer]

SP, your a f@*king legend:ok:

[division1]

Congratulations ALAEA negotiators and those who have
done work towards this.
Lets hope it's a fair and reasonable offer
and goes someway to a feeling of goodwill
once again.
I will reserve my trust of managements offer
until monday.
Have a well earned beer or something.
I will, :D

[blubak]

Nice to have good news and yes we will enjoy our weekend.
We have stuck together,maybe not always had the same views or opinions but have shown to all that a fair outcome is all we ever wanted,we have never been greedy and in the end our professionalism has led us to this position.:ok:

[Ngineer]

Yes Div1, my sentiments exactly. Here's hoping for a fair outcome. Many thanks to the Bexley boys for the many sleepless nights this has caused them. Have a ripper of a night guys.

Thanks also to my LAME brothers who were putting in the hard yards. What doesnt kill you makes you stronger!

[blackhander]

Well done to all. Lets hope it's a good one.
(Does the agreement include the heads of gd and dc?)

[domo]

well done everone. thank god its over, hold your heads high

[kotoyebe]

Congratulations and well done SP and co. There will be a case of beer coming to Bexley for you guys and girls! Here's hoping the inprinciple agreement makes it onto paper the same as it was agreed upon!

[delta 4]

Congratulations Bexley!

however, its not over until we see it in all it's glory and vote it in. Remember the devil is in the detail and we all know what QF can do after an in-principle agreement is reached. :E

Let's not take our eyes off the ball at such a crucial time...........

But I reckon the ALAEA Exec's wouldn't agree to anything unless it was a hellova lot better than the crap deal previously offered :ok:

D4

[Syd eng]

Well done to all, but remember we reached agreement earlier in the year. Lets just wait and see what we have got.

[Clipped]

I hope we tread with great caution .. we have been at this point before.

Coupled with Dicko's announcement next week .. why do I feel uneasy?

Ah yes, distrust.

[triple bogie]

LAMES

'I salute you'

We stood UNITED!

Thanks to the exec's(SP u legend)

BUT, don't put your rifles down boys!!!!

[Acute Instinct]

40ish meetings, word of another in principal agreement, and the champagne corks pop. Sorry boys, party on without me. Talk about coming in your pants before the trousers are even off. This broad is one hell of a teaser. Even if its 10%, I don't know if I care any more. The ALAEA exec's should be championed forever considering their efforts and sacrifice. Lets break the finish line first. Then sprinkle the ticker tape.

[Bolty McBolt]

Hate to play devils advocate

We have been at this stage many times before. To no avail.

As someone said its all in the detail of the document.

The big problem I see is that I and I presume many others still despise and detest all those whom inhabit the "Bunker". They are the people responsible for the mess we now have to live in.
While they are still in place for mine, nothing has changed.
The same procedures the same daily BS will still be there, and therefore by definition we will be still on a "go slow" if we adhere to them, which we must.
Can see it now, LAME still on go slow reneging on agreement.

Call me doubting Thomas but i foresee a very shallow victory :D

On another point

The self praise and back slapping since the FED SEC last post is laughable verging on appalling.
Its not over till its over, or from the Fed Secs favorite read, See your enemies bodies floating down a river.
Lets stay profffesional as my personal bans are still in place until I see the cash in my pay slip.

FOM FOC

[Roy&HG]

Yes well done , but by no means is it nearly over . Remember a while ago when we had then at their knees with some bans and had a agreement and the bans were lifted and everyone went crazy on the available O/T only to clear all outstanding osip and overruns and holds . Then with fresh planes guess who changed their tune and we folded.
So yes well done but far from over !!!!!! Be smart think with your head and not with $$$$ Look at long term not short term gain. The O/T will still be there once voted in , lets not reset the clock for them .

[concerned_LAME]

Congratulations, lets hope there is something in it for all of us which allows us to keep up with inflation as a minimum.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Today 09:13ALAEA Fed SecTo All Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

An In Principal Agreement has been reached on the EBA 8 between Qantas and the ALAEA.

Effective immediately all industrial action will stop and LAME’s should resume work in accordance with normal practice.

We will communicate the terms of this agreement on Monday the 21st of July.

Sue Bussell
Group General Manager
Industrial relations
Qantas Airways Limited

Steve Purvinas
Federal Secretary
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers
Association


Enjoy your weekend guys. I know I will. Please don't call the Execs they are tidying a few bits up, announcements Monday.

[Short_Circuit]

I will not party till the fat lady sings (and she puts it in writing).

Been there, done that before, only to be screwed again.

Awaiting a notice before any good will escape me. :cool:

[NAS1801]

Just watched 7:30 report.... gee. what a wonderful caring guy Dixon is. I think I will throw up.

Let's see what is in the agreement..... don't bend over guys, there needs to be something for everyone. Not just a few.

[Stick'm up]

Fed sec are we going to see an email before monday?
Good work boys and girls :ok:

[qfbadboy]

Big big big call to lift O/T PIA without members hearing basics of the deal
It will want to be one hell of an offer as there,s no going back if we start o/t again
I,m surprised Fed Sec post wasn,t also sent out as notice
I think so little of these Mgr Ir/hr dogs my first thought was have they hacked Pprune
If the executive have pulled this off they have my genuine Thanks :D

[mel applied]

Would like to know a little bit of detail before I get too excited. Remember the 'Heads of Agreement' that was touted around the network, but was resoundingly shouted down.
Not doubting the sincerity of the Fed Sec's post, but would like some details.
Thanks for all your time (your own time mostly) negotiating on our behalf.

[Negative Feedback]

GD, DC, MH and the rest of the Borg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29), you better play fair now, Long haul guys, us, and the other upcoming protagonists in this sorry 3% mantra chanting saga will be watching your every move during the finalisation of these agreements.

You burnt a lot of bridges and have ripped a lot of good will out of your workforce. I for one am not interested in listening to any of your management assimilation speak at all.

Get that damned PPM fixed up for a start, spend some money on those facilities, tools and equipment that's been on hold for years. Stop the fear mongering and bullsh1t. Investment in Engineering is more than just building a big shed or placing a cherry picker somewhere. Actually finish some of the myriad of projects that you've started. Stop applying bandaids to bandaids and actually fix the underlying problems. Appreciate your staff and treat them as an asset and not a hindrance. If you can I might consider becoming a model employee again.

I'm going to buy a Lotto ticket now as I think it has a better chance than management coming through with the goods. :ugh:

[CTMike]

To the people in Cairns with morals,let the boys who have been soaking up the overtime keep doing it.You know who you are Siera Charlie Alpha Bravos. Especially the two Dmm's that are getting fattened up for the cull.

Most people have stayed strong and we salute you.

It has been a long battle and the soft have been exposed (even one of the union reps cracked).

Its not over yet the union have done a great job but lets wait and see what is in the agreement and the company's announcement before we relax.

Just refect on everything the company has said and done,i doubt many people will be willing to forgive and forget just yet.(except the company suckholes)

[The Black Panther]

I'm with the minority and won't get too excited until the detail is revealed.

I will await to see reciprocal respect and the immediate lifting of leave restrictions for our members.

Let's see how long this takes?????

I just couldn't sit down too quickly after being hammered by these hypocrites for so long....far too sore :uhoh:

Take a few days rest SP and team. You have earnt your wages three-fold.

[B.Dawson]

I will remember and never forget those of us that forgot their spine and sat on the wrong side of the fence.They will forever be in my sights and i will wait as long as it takes.And yes you are the chief tango mike.

To the Bexley boys well done but now is not the time to let our guard down,we have been here before.gd and dc still have a pineapple in both hands.