Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA [Archive] - Page 2

rudderless1

10th Feb 2008, 19:43

Current PIA is OK until 16th Feb.

The game is far from over, nor lost.

YES Vote, think about it

0-20% Great outcome for action if they are educated! Highly unexpected result, membership confident and really pissed off to an unprecedented level. Their strength not realised by the Exec but I'm sure they would be happy to see the result!:ok:

20-49% If you voted yes you better support the no vote or a lesser deal will be likely! The membership failed to show the exec confidence with their actions!:uhoh:

51% Great outcome for the company, membership not well represented:{

50-65% You voted for it don't whine you get what you deserve, actions speak louder than words!:\

75% Both company and asn settled well:)

100% Company gave too much, white wash ALAEA had no competition;):D

You have feed back meeting until then, you best make it loud and clear what is your MINIMUM ACCEPTABLE DEAL.
If the vote goes down, the ASN must know what YOU WILL DIE IN A DITCH OVER.
To those who work any OT especially on the FART crew which undermines any industrial pressure applied your ignorance for an intelligent person is astounding!

For those who do above, but expect your membership fees to win your payrise, whilst you undermine said pressure, YOU ARE IDIOTS.

For those who are glad they did OT now, cause after they weakened any ethical and moral stance, now there is nothing in it for them, do you realise what you just said and did? Tell me how do you ever expect to do better?:ugh:

To those that idly standby watching these ignorant, selfish p#&%ks carry on, your inaction and condoning does not help, you should probably make there visit less enjoyable! Have a C%$t chair available for them to sit in the smoko room!:eek::mad:

If the outcome suceeds, now more people HAVE to do OT just to get by. But at least there is one consolation, more people NEEDING OT now, less for those selfish, ignorant idiots now they have to share (ps I didn't say it was a big consolation)

For these stupid lads less time with their families is probably a win, and less chance to get bitten by their dog who does not recognise them.:yuk::yuk::ugh::ugh::sad:

chockchucker

10th Feb 2008, 20:11

Sorry Rudderless1,

my info says that the ALAEA withdrew its application for P.I.A. Hence the reason people in my area can now get leave approved, and also the reason that there is now an in-principle agreement.

If the association wants to start P.I.A., the whole process through the AIRC commissioner has to start again. This time of course, any application for P.I.A. may well be denied.

As crappy an outcome as this may be, I think all the P.I.A. hawks out there will have to accept that it's check-mate to the company for now. Better to re-group and live to fight another day.

Otherwise, I think you'll find the walls are getting harder whilst your heads are getting softer.:ok:

rudderless1

10th Feb 2008, 20:22

Chockchucker

Check your info, you are incorrect, PIA is still available until around the 20th of Feb without a further visit to the commission!

Make it clear what you "really" want if you are not satisfied!:ok:

chockchucker

10th Feb 2008, 21:53

Rudderless,

be that, as it may, I notice that the ALAEA report back/ info sessions run all the way from now untill the 20th.

I don't believe that, no matter what feedback the ALAEA executive receive at these meetings, that they will have the time or ability to submit notice for P.I.A. within the timeframe required.

Even if your info is correct, I think we've been out-flanked and out-gunned this time around:(

chemical alli

10th Feb 2008, 22:18

after reading the alaea notice regarding meetings, i am shocked that the exec has vetoed any and all passing of motions,this tactic is so much like the exec of old that i am appalled.i feel even more violated this time around. the call to war meeting held at the rowers,that turned into a we cant tell you the outcome because the board hasnt approved it was pitiful.now we are going to have feedback meetings with no voice from the members.once again who is the alaea?we the members or the exec.
only one question now remains to be asked, if the in principle agreement is voted down what exactly will the exec do next?
pia should have started and continued up until an informal vote of the membership, on whether the deal was even worthy to put to a vote.
to the alaea exec, you were given the keys to the toy box,but now it looks as if you have picked up your bat and ball and gone home early.

The cougar

11th Feb 2008, 00:37

If you went back through the last 7 EBA's employees perspective you will find that it has been a lot more than the last 2 that new starters have been disadvantaged.
Lets hope we can pull back on this because the day shift penalities we sold out for post 98 starters we will find is soon to be on the block, with the majority now post 98. I am sure they are willing to sell it off for say 1 training point, hell they stand to gain!
Rudderless the smart people doing the FART crew on O/T can do more damage than good. The ALAEA has made it clear that O/T is now OK to do, if you want to start a personal crusade keep it just that! Don't divide the workforce unite them, that how you scare the **** out of the company.

Konehead

11th Feb 2008, 09:25

Interesting ALAEA info meeting today.
I learned there's a difference between 'endorse' and 'recommend'. What a relief!
I learned that it's a little hard to have an info meeting when there isn't enough info.
I learned the company has not failed to once again delay and obfuscate, this time with accurate info on the levels.
I learned that the mood was pretty negative in Sydney, Brisbane and Adelaide. What's the general feeling elsewhere?
I learned that there are some people on the executive we can be proud of - switched on, calm, collected, knowledgeable, expressive; that we quite possibly can trust them with our best interests, contrary to some posts here.
I learned that the application for PIA is still an option right up till 20th Feb, and if needs be, the ALAEA can just re-apply and has a good chance of having it approved...
SO FIRE UP AND VOTE NO!!! :ok::}

knuckledragger1

12th Feb 2008, 06:39

What do I want?

I want openness and fairness in dealings from both sides of the table

I want a real payrise

I want to be happy going to work

I want to trust my fellow worker will do the right thing for the common good

I want to be part of a winning team

I want to be proud to work for QANTAS again

I want QANTAS to beat the living cr@p out of the competition

I want to be recognised for over and above performance

I want management that i trust and respect

I want to help make this happen

:) :) :)

I don't want to give up hard won and fought conditions by our
predecessors, unless they are irrelavant

I don't want to put up with the bullsh1t that is infesting my workplace

I don't want to apologise anymore

I don't want to be second billing to Jetstar anymore

I don't want to see QANTAS's standards lowered

I don't want to see a hull loss

I don't want our external contracts to go elsewhere

:\ :\ :\ :\

I am willing to work smarter

I am willing to be more flexible

I am willing to make assisting suggestions

I am willing to help a new management team make this fairytale come true

:O :O :O :O

I believe the current QE management team are not trustworthy

I believe the current QE management team are incompetent

I believe QE would be better off without the incumbent management team

I believe a better performing and happier QE is possible, just not under DC or MH

I believe we can rebuild

;) ;) ;) ;)

Bolty McBolt

12th Feb 2008, 10:01

Insider Trader said :-
The QF LAMEs blinked, and the company won in the battle of EBA 8. You allowed a symbolic meeting with G Dixon, and a subsequent 'in principle' agreement to cloud your judgement, inflating your egos because you had an audience with the CEO. You fell for the oldest trick in the book, and allowed the intimidation of the CEO to fool you into thinking that you walked away the winners, when in fact you walked away with less than what you came for. It is clear that the company does not rate you with the same volume of importance that you guys rate yourselves. And whose fault is that ?

While I may not agree with the rest of his post, I believe what he stated above is on the mark.

There is nothing other than the 3% over 4 years in this EBA for me. The pre tax super contributions looks nice but can effect how your super is taxed later. I can't see how this made it into the EBA as a carrot

The extra point ?
The alaea FEDEX by agreeing to this is saying everyone over level 8 (edit-level9) is over paid. Why not a point for everyone?

The staff travel upgrade status. Quite often when you travel you will find as a LAME you have the highest upgrade status but lowest "onload" status. If you get on you will get a big seat but you have to get on. Waste of time !

I will vote NO.
We stood up to be counted and buckled like a belt, I feel almost dirty to be associated with the ALAEA. Previous FEDEX looked corrupt or duplicit with company management now we just look stupid.

No SAR No Details

12th Feb 2008, 11:09

The extra point ?
The alaea FEDEX by agreeing to this is saying everyone over level 8 is over paid. Why not a point for everyone?

Possibly they are saying that everyone under 9 is under paid.
Is the glass half full or half empty?
Apart from the money what else is there?
Have your working conditions changed?
Is your job more secure?
Do you want 5% in the level you are in now and stay in it for ever, capped in a quota system you voted for?
If this offer wasn't presented to us what would be the reaction from the floor when we are all out the door and the company publishes this offer? They offered us what and we weren't told!
I think the exec has done the right thing by putting the offer out there. As a previous post put it there is a difference between "recommend" and "endorse".
They recommend we vote on it. They don't necessarily endorse it. Vote how you feel. Back it up with actions.
By the way I don't think there is enough in it for the lower grades and the new comers. I quite frankly I think the majority of the whinging is coming from level 11,12 and 13 avionic lames that have been spoon fed company courses for years.:E;)

Short_Circuit

12th Feb 2008, 14:33

PIA is back on boys.

It appears, now the black & white hard copy of the QF offer
has been read, it has been fiddled and we are being screwed
big time once again. (surprise, surprise, surprise)

Those IR morons just can't help sticking their finger
in the pie, and they pulled out the plum (conditions).

No more second chances, bring it on.. TODAY.... :mad:

The Mr Fixit

12th Feb 2008, 19:50

Whoa, I'm missing some pieces I thought it was done and dusted, the LAME was lame

What the F$%K is going on ? ? ? ? ?

PIOT Bord

12th Feb 2008, 20:23

If it is true and our "esteemed" management have tried to pull a swiftie, I only have one thing to say.
BRING IT ON, AND MAKE THEM HURT!!

Konehead

12th Feb 2008, 21:21

I heard three things were removed: EBA dispute resolution, Cert IV trainer payment and one other, which escapes me for the moment. Granted that this is a rumour network, and what I heard was third hand info, the rumour I heard is that the EBA is off due to the fiddle previously mentioned. Anyone heard anything?

chockchucker

12th Feb 2008, 22:25

As of 22:30 last night at the ALAEA report back meeting in Melbourne last night, no such fiddles by the company were able to be confirmed. We'll just have to wait untill the final document is before us prior to making any judgements me thinks.:ok:

Let's allow cool heads to prevail. No need to get all wound up over rumour and gossip at this stage. Wait and see the facts as presented in the document to be voted on.:ok:

Having said all that, and as a slight side issue, a straw pole taken at last nights meeting would suggest that the proposed agreement (even without company fiddles) will struggle to make it over the line. What's the feeling around the rest of the country?

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

12th Feb 2008, 23:32

Konehead

13th Feb 2008, 01:19

nice rumor put out by the company,get ever one wound up then put the actual offer out(with no changes) making you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside knowing you got what the ALAEA negotiated( a SH!T sandwich),
I wouldn't put it past them. Then again, perhaps it came from K McD, who has shown he isn't exactly abreast of the content of the EBA, having misled Base LAMEs about a crucial point. Mr People PS then had to put everyone straight in the company info meeting. Oops!

On another related subject, I cannot believe that the company doesnt know down to the dollar what it is paying each LAME and what that LAME is due. Typical delay tactics from QF, either that or rank incompetence, to take SO LONG to sort out who is rightfully on what level with what service/training points. After all, you'd think they'd be full bottle on this info BEFORE they entered into EBA negotiations! To expect us to believe they didn't/don't is a stretch.

LAMEA380

13th Feb 2008, 06:45

I hope you comrades stick together and vote no.....that would be the best outcome, that way this would be the trigger to clean the lot of you out once and for all.

Wouldnt that be fun, to see the lot of you accept an inferior offer in a couple of months, i say bring it on, go to war , you guys will really really get what you deserve.

Come on comrades, you know you can do it , vote NO

knuckledragger1

13th Feb 2008, 09:38

:eek:Bidding for our own work is exactly what is wrong with QE at the moment.

Do you imagine Lufthansa or Singapore "bidding" to work on their flagship aeroplanes?

What a load of ****e.

Imagine what the perception is!

:\ Qantas always second fiddle,

:\Almost but not quite?

:\2nd tier airline?

:\What a pity they couldn't get it together

What next?

:=Flight ops "bidding" to operate the 787?

:=Cabin crew "Bidding" to fly the A380?

;)Time to change tack.

:)Sack the incumbent managers

:rolleyes:Get leaders who inspire people to greatness, not play childish games and act petulantly when things don't go their way.

I mean really,

What is the mental age of MH and DC?

possibly 2 or 3 ?

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

grouter

13th Feb 2008, 23:24

Vote no if you have the balls to back it up.
Don't soft cock it like before.
QF does not want or need aircraft sitting on the tarmac
and you have the tools to make this happen.
Yes or No?

mister hilter

14th Feb 2008, 16:24

Well well grouter.
No one to answer you. Maybe you have struck a chord,
and maybe people are re thinking their priorities.
Where is/are the 87% now that we need them?

upsidefront

14th Feb 2008, 18:47

NO
Thank you ALAEA you worked hard, but I vote NO.

murrayatwell

14th Feb 2008, 23:20

:ugh:LAMEs Lament :ugh:

When they came for the Workshop LAME I did not speak up, for I was not a workshop LAME. (Sydney Engine Line, APU)

When they came for the Heavy Maintenance Lame I did not speak up for I was not a Heavy Maintenance LAME (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane)

When they came for the Outstation LAME I did not speak up for I was not a Outstation LAME. (Perth, Melbourne, Cairns)

When they came for the Line Maintenance LAME I did not speak up for I was not a Line Maintenance LAME. (Everywhere)

And when they came for me there was no one left to speak up for me

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees

mister hilter

15th Feb 2008, 02:11

Mrs Hilter also says NO.
We are ready... are you?
Where are you balls?
Take 5% not 3
Life's about Murray's ?
I've seen the badges now make it reality, if you have your wife's blessing

The Mr Fixit

15th Feb 2008, 02:43

Already contacted the asn via an exec member and the resultant feelings expressed in emails and faxes are iaw the publicly held meetings :mad:

They are canny, just checking if we can WALK THE WALK :ok:

By the way Ash how is life under the desk :eek:

QF22

15th Feb 2008, 02:44

I just heard from a mate that the QF NG due to go into JHAS hangar today won't be coming due action from ALAEA.
Whats the goss? ? ? What's happening ? ? ?
All the JH guys have been stood down on full pay complements of QF ! ! !

mister hilter

15th Feb 2008, 04:10

If you want to vote no then please do.
I for one will be with you. The result is not known today.
We can carry this.
Vote NO.

whitenite

15th Feb 2008, 05:03

Go with your heart and your mind will follow (and your balls will too).

Twitter n Bisted

15th Feb 2008, 05:32

PM me or phone. 0011 49 ### #### ###
whitenite

Will it be a dinner date or a burger and a movie???:ok:

grouter

15th Feb 2008, 05:35

Dinner and flowers

The Mr Fixit

15th Feb 2008, 22:11

REALITY

15th Feb 2008, 23:38

Vote NO and we all stand together for the best outcome.

Doesn't get any easier in my world.:)

Konehead

15th Feb 2008, 23:57

I will be voting NO

And yet I stand to immediately benefit from the service point.

I will also be voting no. I will also benefit immediately from the service point.
I will not benefit in the future from the bottle-necks in the quota system remaining substantially intact.
Those following me will not benefit in the future either.
It is not right that a Level 3 LAME earns less than a Level 13 AME.
It is not right that all LAMEs do not receive a service point.
It is not right that some LAMEs will not progress up a Level during the term of the EBA. Are we not a UNION, together, united? All for one and one for all?
It is not right that the only way to progress to Levels 12 and beyond is by a full type course, when no-one is being trained.
It is not right that one can have 8 service points and two training points and STILL can't get a Level increase.
It is not right that people are working on and signing for things they are not being remunerated for.
It is not right that only Level 9 is free for the life of the agreement.
It is not right that the incompetence, betrayal and bad faith of the company should be rewarded by our acqiescence to a mediocre deal.
It is not right that we should vote yes on a mediocre deal when we hold all the cards. The A380 bid is won, ACS is in crisis, there is a LAME shortage, we have the public and government onside (for now).
It is not right that Avalon has been set up such that it needs to rely on manpower from Tulla and then fail to pay adequate allowances.
It is not right that Line and Base LAMEs should be voting on heavy maintenance outcomes that have no bearing on them.
It is not right to believe that the company is doing us a favour by bringing A330 maintenance onshore. They had to anyway, because Defence insisted Qantas did the mod, not some contractor, and to provide the economies of scale that would make the A330 tanker conversion a profitable exercise.

mister hilter

16th Feb 2008, 00:07

Nice post Konehead
Mrs Hilter agrees.

Insider Trader

16th Feb 2008, 03:04

Ladies & Gentlemen, before your eyes glaze over with mists of rage, may i suggest you read this article (http://http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/16/2164523.htm).

The reality is that the days of tub-thumping actions and wildcat strikes are long gone. As a collective force, you would be wise to take instruction from your union, who have 'recommended' you accept the in principle agreement drawn up. Other wise you may well find yourselves in a similar position to the valets, being offered new employment with a 'greenfields' third party with greatly reduced conditions.

The well read in here would be aware of the major expansion of the aviation industry within China, with a burgeoning manufactuting industry, and MRO's and hangars popping up at a rapid rate. With these new entities will be skilled labour working at a markedly lower wage than yourselves. These Chinese MROs will be instantly competitive, and will be keen to expand throughout the Asia-Pacific region, including Australia. I can assure you all that QF management will be very interested specatators in watching the Chinese industry evolve, as the temptation to outsource will increase as their own labour costs increase. And before you wind up with the predictable rhetoric about the inferior quality of Asian labour, let me just say that it is utter rubbish perpertrated by yourselves and your over-inflated egos. The fact is that the Chinese product is of comparable quality, much cheaper and usually much quicker. The issue of maintenance 'slots' will diminish as new hangars are opened. There are not a lot of negatives to the Chinese alternative.

You guys and girls are standing at the threshold of a critical moment in the history of QF Eng. The decisions you make now will immediate impact your future, and the future direction of QF's engineering plan. And with the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, announcing that the federal govt will be freezing their own pay increases, you will get little sympathy from both the govt and the media in refusing to accept a 3% wage rise in the current economic climate. Rudd portrayed himself as an "economic conservative" during the '07 federal election campaign, and will be keen that his govt sticks to that mantra. So do not expect any support for a hefty wage rise from a govt keen to tackle inflation.

And you will get little sympathy from a public constantly having to put up with delays / cancellations as a result of your on-the-job 'protests'. There are too many carriers out there for the public to choose, and they will simply not tolerate your antics. Nor will the company. If you choose to 'work to rule' (and you all know what i mean by that) by all means do so. But do not expect any flexibility to be shown by the company in the future (eg: meal break times, pro-rata A/L, etc).

As i've stated previously, the decision is yours to make. Just think long and hard about what the ramifications of that decision is, because once you make it, there's no going back. I wish you all the best.

The Mr Fixit

16th Feb 2008, 04:42

My Apologies to Spanner Twister for the company puppet crack

Obviously you are just used to having the same poor representation as I have for the last 20 years

As you said in essence, lets move forward together as a union of men and women not as men and women who happen to be in a union :ok:

On a side note does anyone remember when the ALAEA defended two LAMEs in GA against manslaughter charges in cairns I think

I also didn't know it was the ALAEA that spent over $70,000 getting extra redundancy payments for ALL ansett staff after the other unions refused to assist, yes it was initially for just the LAMEs there but the precedent extended out to all areas

I guess memories are short once the money is in the pocket :eek:

Short_Circuit

16th Feb 2008, 06:54

Just to remind everyone, the A380 deal is done and there is nothing to hang over our heads for a while. :)

2010 EBA IX will be just at the time the B787 bidding will be in full swing and just bet they will use that against us in EBA negotiations. :uhoh:

NOW is the time to fix the problems we have with our EBA.. :ok:

(now, where has my PPM got to):p

Johnny V

16th Feb 2008, 11:57

So all you twerps plan on voting NO :mad:

Pahhhh you wouldn't dare my vengeance will be swift and frightful I am now in charge of quality and heavy maintenance so there will be no loose ends

One aircraft to John Holland already and two more to go, all in all, 15 aircraft to be outsourced this year it will be the end of your little petty union and it's so called martyrs Purple Ps lucky he got out but I will squash your president and his bulldogs as a lesson to you all

Hell hath no fury as a vampire scorned :E

Excellent Smithers

Short_Circuit

16th Feb 2008, 23:35

Vinni, (AKA, Johnny V)

Have you not received & read the latest QF Booklet

"PLANNING THE FUTURE TOGETHER"
Pahhhh you wouldn't dare my vengeance will be swift and frightful
There is not much "Togetherness" in the threat you post. :E

Johnny V

17th Feb 2008, 01:01

No threat pretty boy

Tulla to JHAS and MAS

Brisvegas 767s to JHAS and SIA

Scabalon to SIA and HAECO

Hevay Maint down the tube Geoffs letter said it all

Next theyll put me in charge of line after they get rid of Rolf then I'll have some real fun, I may even make a video................

The Mr Fixit

17th Feb 2008, 01:05

Hot off the Presses

QANTAS management have threatened legal action over some posts posted here, seems they have struck a nerve

Good Luck to all, I will be making a stand regardless

rudderless1

17th Feb 2008, 01:28

A mouse looked through the crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife open a package.
"What food might this contain?" The mouse wondered - he was devastated to discover it was a mousetrap!

Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning.
"There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"

The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, "Mr. Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern to you but it is of no consequence to me. I cannot be bothered by it."

The mouse turned to the pig and told him, "There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The pig sympathized, but said, "I am so very sorry, Mr. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it but pray.
Be assured you are in my prayers."

The mouse turned to the cow and said, "There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!"
The cow said, "Wow, Mr. Mouse. I'm sorry for you, but it's no skin off my nose."

So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer's mousetrap-- alone.

That very night a sound was heard throughout the house -- like the sound of a mousetrap catching its prey.
The farmer's wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it was a venomous snake whose tail the trap had caught.The snake bit the farmer's wife.

The farmer rushed her to the hospital and she returned home with a fever.
Everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup's main ingredient.
But his wife's sickness continued, so friends and neighbours came to sit with her around the clock.
To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.

The farmer's wife did not get well; she died.
So many people came for her funeral; the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide enough meat for all of them.

The mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall with great sadness.:ugh:

So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and think it doesn't concern you, remember -- when one of us is threatened, we are all at risk.

We are all involved in this journey called life. We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another.

One of the best things to hold onto in this world is a friend.

(and often a union to help at work ):ok:

FCMC

17th Feb 2008, 03:09

Insider Trader Dream vs Reality

Your just brilliant. Soon as you can work out how to plug the Chinaman into the Matrix and download the how to do a quick D check on a B747 your vision will be complete. They better be quick because the QF fleet is getting so much older and alas the Managers special the 787 the magical aeroplane that will never breakdown and cost nothing doesn't work and wont for quite a few years so those old 74/767s will be flying for years yet. China could build a hanger a week and still couldn't keep up with the worlds ageing fleet.:O

Spanner Twister and Rudderless1-SPOT ON!:)

From my feedback in Perth its a big NO!!!!!!!!

MH&DC big mistake sending those 738s to John Holland. Nothing to lose now!!!

Better get back to that hydraulic leak. Is it leaking-not sure!
Ill have to investigate.Sorry Flight ops ill need at least 30 mins.
Oops whats that bleed leak I hear. Out of limits. EA thanks.Oops thats
another 30 mins!!

Insider Trader

17th Feb 2008, 04:43

Better get back to that hydraulic leak. Is it leaking-not sure!
Ill have to investigate.Sorry Flight ops ill need at least 30 mins.
Oops whats that bleed leak I hear. Out of limits. EA thanks.Oops thats
another 30 mins!!

FCMC, is it any wonder the company treats you with contempt in negotiations with an attitude such as yours. It probably says a lot about your (collective) work practices if you are content in otherwise leaving defects that all of the sudden require the issuing of an Engineering Authority to allow the aircraft to continue in service. Maybe mandatory Form 500's should be raised when EAs are issued so it can be determined where the quality lapses are occuring. Is there any issue with those carrying out the relevant tasks? For all the talk of discrepancies of maintenance in overseas MROs, there are plenty of non-compliance issues within QF eng as well. A lot of you people are riding on your reputation, and at this rate you are not presenting yourselves as a viable alternative for the future. May i suggest you desist with the dummy spitting and get on with the job of being a word class, competitive member of a quality organisation!

The Mr Fixit

17th Feb 2008, 04:55

Johnny V is obviously a manager tryin to rile us because his info is spot on
JHAS - B738s and B767 Overflow due to Downfall of Sydney Heavy how ? you ask :confused:
Simple AVV can't handle the B747 overflow hence EBY and EBV (SIA and HAECO) but they get additional 737s thus straining the ops further :hmm:

Tulla reduced to one line because of inept management (or deliberate downgrade ? they promoted the twit responsible) hence any delay such as the 75 day delay incurred due cracks has blown their capability and with JHAS opening next door and Boeing at Fisherman's bend has seen an exodus of 50+ engineers licenced and unlicenced :ugh:

Continual delaying of A330 a/c into BNE has allowed up to a hundred employees to find work elsewhere (much better money and conditions) :ooh:

Old aircraft QF have kept in service 10 years too long, instead of buying new ones this has continually put pressure on a world class operation that was once the envy of the airline world :yuk:

Never have I seen such a deliberate drive to create unsustainability at QF :{

Remind me again from which airline JV and MB have come from and what happened to it and why ? :eek:

The Mr Fixit

17th Feb 2008, 04:58

As the Irish midget says so eloquently "Inside Trader, You're a Thurd !!!"

another superlame

17th Feb 2008, 05:38

The only reason QF are sending work to JHAS is because QF are losing people left right and centre from AVV and Tulla and don't have the manpower to do the work themselves.
So if they send the work to JHAS where industrial issues are not an issue, then the work might get done with a minimum of fuss.
This has nothing to do with the EBA. They always send work outside. They did it during all my 16 years with QF, nothing has changed. The only reason you are all worried about JHAS is because they are local and you see them as a threat to the work you think is rightfully yours.
The whole JHAS/A380 project has no doubt ruffled some feathers in ACS. Albeit JHAS weren't successful this time,but they are here for the long term not just for 5 minutes.
If AAES can trade for 5 years in administration and still turn a profit they must have some seriously smart people at the helm.
I believe that some time in the future,be it 5 weeks or 5 years JHAS will be doing a lot more for QF than you could imagine.
The ground work for a bigger joint venture has already been done.
How many times have they threatened to close the place down. This might be the stepping stone to that sad day.
Don't get me wrong I was gutted when Syd Heavy shut down, we had been told in the 6 months before the closure that Syd Heavy had a future for at least the next 5 years but it was not too be.
I wouldn't like to see the whole operation shut down, I hope to return one day if they ever start employing more engineers.

The Mr Fixit

17th Feb 2008, 08:14

Ok Boys and Girls

Whats it gonna be YES or NO ?

knuckledragger1

17th Feb 2008, 08:49

It's clear Qantas don't want to be in the maintenance game anymore.

:\ :\ :\ :\ :\

My message to Geoff,

Get on with it then, stop mucking about.
Do a Pol Pot on QE, take your company to year zero.
Close us down and start anew.

:D :D :D :D :D

Let's see where the cards fall.

Then we may see the "real cost" of cost cutting.

I am sick and tired of the patently manufactured threats to QE.

I call it BULLSH!T fatigue

I take my wage and surrender my fate to Qantas (as long as they pay).
so that I don't have to worry about where the next buck comes from.

If I wanted this sort of stress in my life, I'd start a business.

Oh and also,

I'm voting yes.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

by the way,

whats the story with the ANZ/QF tie up with the 787?

certain persons well known to this forum, were seen in Auckland recently.

Purportedly to be for future planning of a regional 787 MRO.

Interesting..............

FCMC

17th Feb 2008, 11:27

Insider Trader-Hook,line & sinker thankyou very much. Spanner Twister sorted you out quite nicely so I wont bite too much but now we can confirm what the company think of us. The funny part is you speak of a world class MRO. Current LAMES have been around over 20-30 years,management have not and we were one of the best in the business its only the current management that has brought us down. The hydraulic leak was merely a way of saying we will be INFLEXIBLE! It can relate to anything anyday. If a workforce is not happy they will be INFLEXIBLE. Even your beloved Chinese or Koreans can have the biggest of riots even with batons and blood when they are not happy. The trouble is you had a great MRO you just destroyed it and purposely I would think. Do you not think A/C dont have defects everyday. We just choose to massage it cause we know its OK. But not anymore. The PPM is so deep even you cant work it out or change it.I challenge you.We will give you back a WORLD CLASS MRO AGAIN if you give us WORLD CLASS MANAGEMENT!
Management has changed NOT US!
But I don't think you want that.

Gee I love that strategy map. Sorry that one didn't work did it. Strategy map 2.Love it.So useful!
You guys are really something to look up to!!!!

Hardworker

17th Feb 2008, 21:11

Well there is nothing in it for me.....inflation at 4.2% and heading for 6%, the EBA is a joke....its time for some industrial unrest and put some pressure on the management that have no formal qualifications...
Vote NO!

knuckledragger1

17th Feb 2008, 22:34

The way I see it, everyone must vote according to how the offer affects his/her individual circumstances,
If on balance it is good/bad then the deal will get up or be rejected.

:\ :\ :\ :\ :\

I have tried to take out the emotion, and look at the deal as it stands.
For me, it is a good deal.
I will go up a level, get super and 3% so it's a good compromise.

I will vote yes.

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

I don't have much faith in the long term prospects for QE as it exists now,
so a payrise will hopefully furnish a better payout figure for redundancy,
and add a little to the super for when I retire.

I am sympathetic to the Heavy Maintenance cause, having once been one of your number, albeit briefly.
But I don't think Qantas want to do it anymore.
Nor do they seem to want to fix/support what they have in QE.

It appears what is desired is a barebones,
almost a Maintenance watch only operation,
with all handling and maintenance contracted to the lowest bidder.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

check1-2

18th Feb 2008, 01:10

I'll see how the travelling circus/feedback meeting goes on Tuesday, but at the moment its NO:ok:

knuckledragger1

18th Feb 2008, 03:43

The sole thing that we have absolute control of is our opinion.
Voting is the way we express this opinion

Right now we stand as 1600 odd seperate opinions yet to be heard.

The process for the EBA will tally up our individual votes and come to decision.

At that point, we will stand as one.

Be it for or against.

If the LAMEs in HM are strong enough in numbers, then their opinions will win the day, and I will sit on the grass with them.
However, if the result appears to hijacked by a small minority, I will be disappointed.

I will nonetheless observe my obligations and comply with what is requested by the Exec.

Let's hope the result is representative of the true opinions of our membership.

Woe betide the member who does not stand with his compatriots.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Insider Trader

18th Feb 2008, 04:22

Is it any wonder you guys are always unhappy about the outcome the ALAEA achieves for you. Have a look through this thread, and you will notice one glaring thing - the lack of unity. Rather, the whimpering noises of increasingly marganilised individuals can be heard, to busy caught up in the indulgence of their own issues. How on earth can you possibly sit at the bargaining table with a powerful entity such as Qantas when you can not agree about conditions amongst yourselves. You merely set yourselves up to be squashed time and again.

What is most interesting however is the numbers of the ALAEA membership not in this forum voicing an opinion, which is by far and away the majority of you. It would appear that apathy has set in amongst your group, and i would suggest that they are resigned to voting 'YES' to the in principle agreement, just to move on and concentrate on the future. And good luck to them, i say.

StayStrong

18th Feb 2008, 05:41

Some may see this as simply about money. It is not. Money is simply used as a measure of how seriously the company takes you and your efforts.The current offer put on the table clearly outlines the companies opinion of you, and your efforts. It is nothing less than a humiliating slap in the face.

If you want respect, if you want management to learn your worth, you must vote no.

If you accept this, well, basically worthless offer, then you are telling the company that you, as a LAME accept that your worth is nothing. You will not recover from it.

Do not think "Lets just vote yes and get it sorted in the next EBA"

There will be no chances. You vote yes, the company wins, you lose. You have no power left. You may as well get rid of the ALAEA and just dance in your cage hoping that management might see fit to throw you an old rotten banana.

My personal opinion of course, but look back at previous EBA's, have you managed to "sort it in the next EBA" so far? No.

Vote NO. Get back the respect we deserve, the respect we earn from countless hours of study and learning, from years of dedication to the safety of the flying public and to the growth of Qantas.

Take five

18th Feb 2008, 06:09

I believe that at all times we need to maintain our professional integrity.

There seems to be a general managerial culture of greed, with short term gain and strategy at the moment which is being fostered from above.
The whole of the airline is top heavy and that is what is causing the problems.

Qantas started as a company which had Pilots, Engineers, Cabin Crew and someone to sell the tickets. They were all producing something which was tangible and viable.

Now look at it. Managers, who want change for change sake, who will not listen to any solutions from the people who know what makes the company work and what keeps the passengers flying with us. These puppets (vultures) are still alive and well, and surviving on our losses and restrictions.

Did anyone read the article about the downfall of one of the takeover bidders for Qantas. At the time of the takeover bid, Allco shares were selling for $27.70. They are now $1.70 and are looking at going into liquidation. I bet those vultures were just rubbing their hands together in anticipation of the rape and pillage of the assets of our airline. Karma is a wonderful thing.

I feel somehow that the founders of Qantas are looking on from above, and so far we have been very lucky to survive. I just hope that the shareholders will eventually rebel and all of the people responsible for the whole fiasco will lose their heads.
That is if the current share buyback doesn’t result in the demise of Qantas with the next bid.

The public will make the final decision on the whole situation when they withdraw their bums from our seats because of the staff and service cutbacks evident everywhere in Qantas.
I am sure that management will try to spin the blame entirely onto their staff, who up until now, have been trying their best to keep the standards up where they should be, but with our hands tied behind their backs.

There are no more excuses.
Fuel Costs, Sars, Bird Flu, Economic Downturn, Worlds Best Practice

We should expect to be able to be remunerated accordingly with our company’s profits, and also fly using our own staff travel, (it is cheaper to fly with other operators because of the taxes and charges which our own company places on our tickets. Another money spinner for management)
Sorry about the rave.

This is the bottom line.

Maintain your Standards and Integrity.
Stay United with each other
Vote NO.

murrayatwell

18th Feb 2008, 06:23

Just heard that the ALAEA will not support the heads of agreement after the roadshows have concluded. Too much negative feedback!:D :ok:. Guess the new Exec are not going to get any kickbacks.

STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA

18th Feb 2008, 07:41

I will be voting NO. As i think everyone should. We had the company sh#ting themselves. There is not enough in this EBA for the value we give the company. Now they have announced we have the 380 contract (which we were allways going to get). They were just using it as a tool to try and influence us. They will offer us more. They are scared of a fight because they know they cant win. We can hurt them too much.I urge everyone to vote No!!! ITS OUR TIME NOW TO GET THE PAY WE DESERVE!!! Just look at inflation and interest rates. VOTE NO!!!!!

HARDNUT

18th Feb 2008, 07:45

All i can say is you hit the nail on the head.Nice post. Vote NO we can get what we are worth.

mister hilter

18th Feb 2008, 07:48

I agree, and I think it will go down

Clipped

18th Feb 2008, 08:01

Insider Trader

How on earth can you possibly sit at the bargaining table with a powerful entity such as Qantas when you can not agree about conditions amongst yourselves.

Because of years of effort by the airline to divide and conquer. This is certainly not unique to LAMEs, it occurs Company wide. However, Company wide, is the same feeling of abuse, by a management team driven by greed and hell bent on repressing their workforce.

What is most interesting however is the numbers of the ALAEA membership not in this forum voicing an opinion

Yes it is. More interesting is the number viewing the thread, thousands, I believe.

i would suggest that they are resigned to voting 'YES' to the in principle agreement, just to move on and concentrate on the future.

Thanks for the guidance. I believe it is a democratic vote and I suggest there is alot to debate but to never try to influence a vote.

just to move on and concentrate on the future.

That is being continually undermined by the antics DC/MH. I'm sure most LAMEs would look forward to prosperity and security in their workplace but how is that being perpetuated by current policies? A new blue strategy map?

Let's have a guess at which manager Insider Trader might be? Me first - DM perhaps GH.

Talkwrench

18th Feb 2008, 09:56

G’day Insider Trader, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of LAME voting intention as outlined in post #354. I would suggest that it is somewhat rash of you to make such conclusions based solely on the content of postings on a rumour forum. If you talk directly with a large cross section of LAMEs you will find that a majority yes vote is by no means a certainty. One shouldn’t count one’s chickens before they have hatched. Indeed, one shouldn't assume one's LAME's will eventually run out of puff.

FCMC

18th Feb 2008, 10:19

Let's have a guess at which manager Insider Trader might be? Me first - DM perhaps GH.

I reckon DM because he talks a lot without actually doing anything!

Slackjaw

18th Feb 2008, 11:15

First they came for heavy Maintenance and I did not speak out for I wasn't in Heavy Maintenance.

Then they came for the other operator's contracts, and I did not speak out for i had no A340

Then they came for 737, and I did not speak out for I had no 737

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.

Without unity they will prevail, you can think about yourselves selfishly if you want, but you will not stop them, without a united front WE will LOSE.

All members should stand united, and the association MUST act in our interest or be held accountable. I don't like whats happening and I will speak out, but if our association embarks on dirty filthy labour back hand deals and handshakes for promises of who knows what then they must be held accountable.

All I have seen from our leaders since the meeting with some government officials is INACTION.

They say it's their mandate to tear up AWAs, that implies it is their mandate to give us a fair go. Is 3% in a climate of soaring interest rates and worker oppression a fair go?

Oh yeah the first bit is not my work, It was written by Martin Niemöller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller)

It was about when the nazis rounded up people to ultimately take to Auschwitz. It adapts very well to this situation doesn't it? Evil happens when good people do nothing.

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

division1

18th Feb 2008, 11:15

What's with having the BNE hangar 3 roster agreement forming
a part of the eba heads of agreement?
I can't see why anyone other than those affected should vote on it.
It's not surprising the way the NO vote sentiment is intensifying.
Unless what i see on the smoko room table becomes more equitable,
i'm voting it down. :ugh:

Anulus Filler

18th Feb 2008, 12:29

Insider (DM)

What is most interesting however is the numbers of the ALAEA membership not in this forum voicing an opinion, which is by far and away the majority of you. It would appear that apathy has set in amongst your group, and i would suggest that they are resigned to voting 'YES' to the in principle agreement, just to move on and concentrate on the future. And good luck to them, i say.

You're a disillusioned individual... Don't get your dreams mixed up with reality.

Most will vote NO and we will be in there for the long run.:cool:

PIOT Bord

18th Feb 2008, 17:19

Present QF Management have a culture of "screwing" sections of the business down until they start to fail, then turning it back half a turn. Tried to check-in for a flight lately? Wondered why baggage doesn't arrive at the same time and location as the pax? Seen the number of flights canned because of no Tech Crew? Ever imagined that you could provide better service when day after day they cram as many pax onto a flight as they can with the least no. of cabin crew as possible?

It's the same model QE management are rolling out. Ever heard of world best practice being achieved by engineers who :-
1) Have to carry out HM work in different locations a 100km apart depending on a daily workload.
2) Run a major base with a permanent O/T crew who work on scheduled A-check aircraft.
3) Change rosters and crews around every time a new aircraft comes into the shed for a check.
4) Don't have the manpower / licence coverage to change an engine on an aircraft the airline has been operating for over 30 years.

The list could go on and on. It's the same story. QE management want world's best practice by the least number of people possible, with the least possible training, being paid the least possible renumeration, while being supplied with the bare minimum of equipment/facilities.

This EBA is about achieving the above. They benchmark our pay and conditions in Asia, while benchmarking their pay and conditions out of the USA. Even after a 27% pay rise, GD will not agree to wage restraint for himself for the next 15 months. It's been 26 months since I had a pay rise!

Vote NO. Short Haul pilots voted down their eba twice. Jetstar pilots have voted down their eba. Against all the dooms day predictors, "this is the best you will get", their agreements have been improved.

It's time to take a stand and get the renumeration that is fair and reasonable.

Sunfish

18th Feb 2008, 20:46

I'm not sure when you Gentlemen will be voting on this matter, but I've been following your discussions with interest and have an observation or two to make.

1. Your new Executive seems to me to be working well. The only possible criticism (which may be totally unfounded anyway) is that they just might have blinked when the God (GD) descended from Mt. Olympus to speak to youse mere mortals.

It's an old trick - called a "circuit breaker" - introducing a new player to a negotiation at the last minute to break a deadlock. And of course I would bet my left one that the Executive were entreated by QF to "deal in good faith", "show integrity and professionalism", and all the other blather that your previous executive tried to palm off at you.

Frankly my dears, any time you hear the words "integrity", "Professionalism", "Good Faith" in the context of a negotiation, run for the door, because you know then that they are about to screw you. Again it's an old trick with a twist - they are making a moral appeal to your better nature - which is irrelevent in a negotiation.

The twist is that "Good Faith" is a legal concept and you had better always say that you are dealing in good faith because it can have serious legal implications if you don't - even when you know you are dealing with lying devious sunofabitches, but "showing good faith" doesn't require you to accept a reaming, unlike what your previous executive told you.

To put it another way, provided you "walk the talk" in a negotiation you can behave like the meanest, most ruthless, despicable carnivore on the planet - that's what merchant bankers do for a living, and some of them (and, it appears Qantas Management) take great pleasure in creating pain and misery for other people in the process.

So my point is, if you don't like what is being served up, then it is perfectly acceptable to politely say no. You have not committed a sin, been unprofessional, been greedy, shown bad faith, destroyed the credibility of the entire Rudd Government, shown contempt for the travelling Australian public, ruined the company, destroyed Australian Aviation, destroyed the Australian economy, caused an increase in interest rates, or anything else your previous executive would have told you and what the company will tell you and anyone else stupid enough to listen.

To put it yet another way. Why are you voting at all if the outcome is so predetermined? You have a vote because you are expected to decide Fellas.

Make your own mind up without fear, although I am quite sure that Qantas management are getting ready right now for a double dose of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) for you to swallow. Probably going to try and involve the Government too I would expect.

Good luck.

Big Unit

18th Feb 2008, 20:52

I would take the 3% if it also involved the end for MH. I am sick and tired of the continual erosion of our working conditions with the 'new and improved' policies straight out of MH's textbook. Here are some gems:
:ugh:Having to apply for type courses like its a new job. (What happened to promotion will be based on merit, as our ppm states)
:ugh:Slowly removing our QF overseas line station guys and replacing them with locals. (Yeah good one, that wont cost you much what with the $300,000 over nighters).

The list could go on but in the end I have had enough. There is nothing in this eba for me. I will be voting accordingly.

I just want to work like we did 5-10 years ago when all we had to complain about was lack of stands, and our people were proud of what we achieved on a daily basis....:E:E:E:E

Konehead

19th Feb 2008, 11:40

“There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you cant take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus, and you’ve got to make it stop! And you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all!”
Now, no more talking. We're going to march in singing "We Shall Overcome." Slowly; there are a lot of us. Up here to the left -- I didn't mean the pun. - Mario Savio
It lacks passion in print. Watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfw
Inspiring.

Headcone

19th Feb 2008, 13:05

I see that the masses are not happy??

We have had the visit from GD……seen it all before…….just a softener!

Got rid of the distasteful clauses………seen it all before………….the company probably didn’t really want them………….they were just a negotiating points!

Came back to the troops with only 3%..............seen it all before………….it seems its all we are going to get……………….we better try and sell it to them……………but didn’t the troops say not to come back until we had 5%...........seen it all before.......lets try to sell it to them anyway. Oh s**t we don’t have the cowboy anymore to do the sale.

Itookdamoney may have his time in the spotlight yet……….not to mention the rest that may be waiting in the wings???????

Remember all………….becoming a LAME is a privilege not a RIGHT!!!!!!!!!! The sooner we realise this, the better off we will be. Many other airlines give you the privilege of becoming a LAME, when and if they feel there is a vacancy available, and you have gone through the relevant application and interview process and are eventually chosen for that privilege, if you are lucky enough.

I have been a LAME for almost 40 years now, let’s face it; I did an apprenticeship which was sorter than most plumbers. Sat basic examinations in which the content was mostly covered during my apprenticeship. Was placed on a type courses, placed in an air conditioned classroom, taught for 6 to 7 hours a day and paid my shift penalties during this course. In some cases I was accommodated and transported in a very amicable manner. By my early twenties I was earning more than my tradesman father could have ever imagined earning. By my early forties I was earning more than some professional engineers. I consider myself no better and no worse and a good quality tradesman. OK, given that I work on ships of the sky, I need to be a little more meticulous. But at the end of the day I was a young kid that completed year ten and pursued a trade. I was fortunate that I chose the prestigious world of aircraft, because it has offered me a great lifestyle. I have worked on multi million dollar machines, have been trained whilst being paid, been paid handsomely whilst travelling abroad, met many interesting people and worked with even more. I am now in my fifties and believe that the choice I made back then was a blessing in disguise.

We cannot continue to have our snouts firmly embedded in the troth …………..after all we are only mere mortals.

If we continue down this road we will merely price ourselves out of existance!!

:=

Sunfish

19th Feb 2008, 16:58

Mr Headcone is a troll.

A simple check of his earlier posts reveals this little gem (18/12/07).

Clipped & Mahatmacoat,

I am neither an employee of Qantas nor a member of the ALAEA, but have had close ties to both for many years.

It seems that some, like yourselves, prefer to live in denial than to face reality.

And this little gem:I have been a LAME for almost 40 years now

....and posting on Pprune since December 2007.

You can go away now.

sky rocket

19th Feb 2008, 19:27

Sounds like Headcone hasn't had a mortgage in years!

K9P

19th Feb 2008, 21:18

Yeah, need a "W@nker Filter" on this forum

Konehead

19th Feb 2008, 23:19

Ok, so we've had the vast bulk of the ALAEA EBA info meetings, with Sydney completed yesterday and only Avalon to go today.
The union should have a pretty good idea of the members' feeling with regard to the EBA.
Any attendees at the Melbourne and Sydney meetings over the last couple of days care to shed some light on the outcomes of these meetings? What was the general consensus in each case? YES? NO?
And if it's no, then what next?

Big Unit

20th Feb 2008, 01:27

The general feel is a very strong NO. Not one hand went up for a yes. Ol geoffrey may have to come back to the table and offer some of his own bonus to the troops to get this ****e sandwich over the line. While he is at it, maybe DC can return some of his 48% increase to the troops too.:E:E

satos

20th Feb 2008, 08:51

The school teachers in Victoria are going for 30% wage rise and aren't backing
down to the governments paltry offer.
Grow a backbone ALAEA and sock it to them.
IF NOT

VOTE NO

The Mr Fixit

20th Feb 2008, 10:09

The posts so far answer my question NO GO GD is that answer :E

Sunfish, great post but we want more !!!!
Do we challenge the mighty QF with JH's workplace laws still in place and go to war or do we plead for more like Oliver did ? Please Sir can I have some more ? :sad:

Talk the talk but can we walk the walk ????? :D

knuckledragger1

20th Feb 2008, 11:21

Talk the talk, walk the walk.

well i say walk the talk

talk is cheap.

You know how i will vote, but

Can we get a better deal?

at this moment i think not.

I hope you can prove me wrong but all i can see is a bunch of scared guys hoping it won't happen, doing as much O/T to offset what may happen.

Informal O/T bans are routinely ignored,

Grow a backbone you lot, look around,

If you feel strongly about it, vote with your feet, not your mouth.

Get some respect,

self respect

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

wingers

20th Feb 2008, 19:03

I have deliberatley stayed away from this site (self imposed ban) however have gone through these posting and i see Sunfish is back again, delberatley stiring things up.

Sunfish you do not have a stake in what happens here so i respectfully suggest that you not inflame things further.

What happerns if this vote goes down? what next? we go to IRC to plead our case again then the whole process starts again with little certainty of the future.

My vote will be yes, am not sure if we could get better but regardless i need the certainy in the current mortgage climate.

Each to there own but, suffice to say, the writing is on the wall, to those who will vote no, good luck, if the no vote is in the majority the fracture will be permanent, what you do not seem to understan is that the viability of the union will be tested if this goes down and the damage may never be repaired.

To those PIA war mongerers, you need to have an exit strategy to go to battle, we do not have one nor could we guarantee unity if times got tough, so therefore the decision for me is an easy one.

Sunfish

20th Feb 2008, 19:32

Knuckles:

Can we get a better deal?

at this moment i think not.

You are obviously not a poker player.

How the heck would you know if a better deal could not be obtained?

The closest both you and DC can come to a rational, logical determination of your worth is international benchmarking, suitably adjusted for cost of living, exchange rates, tax, etc. Has your executive or international association done that? Perhaps it should.

Qantas itself would have a good idea of man hour / Block hour ratios and how theirs benchmark against other airlines, but they sure as hell won't tell you unless it suited their negotiating stance.

So absent this logical wage setting process (which was torpedoed many years ago by Government) you are playing poker with the company. You have absolutely no idea what QF's actual "worst case" (ie: Best for you) position might be, I don't think even DC would know this.

Lets be very clear on what we mean by this: It means the point at which QF Board will approve the deal with much gnashing of teeth, and real (not pretend) screaming and crying - but will still grudgingly approve.

The only way to find if you are even close to this pain point is to call their bluff.

The reason you are all in extremis now is that in successive EBA's no one has called QF's Bluff. So you don't know what you are really worth to Qantas do you? Furthermore, during successive EBA's, your knowledge of what you were worth to Qantas has progressively deteriorated, thanks to the negotiating stance of your former executive.

Now Qantas management would regard this is a very desirable state for LAMES to be placed in, because scared, fearful, people who doubt their own worth are very easy to bargain with because they won't call anyone's bluff.

Rest assured, Qantas will do everything possible by way of engendering fear, uncertainty and doubt in all your minds to get you to accept the deal without calling it's bluff. Thats what all the crap about "Legacy airline", "Outsourcing" and "Asian MRO's" means as well as QF managements constant whining about costs. Thats just good business sense - always whine about costs with a straight face, especially when you are making off with tonnes of loot. Farmers have got this down to an art form (a pet peeve of mine).

And unless you do call their bluff, you will never know if they were bluffing will you?

Furthermore, as each EBA slips away without the bluff ever having been called it becomes progressively easier to bluff you.

Now it may be that Qantas is not bluffing, but there is no way you can find out. This is just a statement of fact.

You are in a take it or leave it position, the only thing being obvious is that if you do, then absent radical international change, your bargaining position will be even weaker next time you confront the same management.

It's up to you.

P.S. Wingers appears right on cue and with a predictable FUD message. I would expect others with a similar viewpoint (signed up in late 2007/early 2008) will make their appearance shortly. Perhaps QF might actually try and swamp this forum with a hundred or so newbie trolls.

And Wingers, I am simply stating the facts and attempting to clarify the true position you guys are in, which for the record is:

1. You guys have been given a vote. There is no external penalty or moral or ethical reason to vote one way or the other, despite what people have tried to tell you in the past. (eg: "Its unprofessional to grovel for money", "we have a duty to the Australian travelling public")

You guys are in a wages negotiation. Morality doesn't come into it. You have a vote. Use it as you see fit.

2. You are playing poker with your employer. You have been made an offer. You are told that it is final. There is only one way you can find out if this is true, just like poker. It's up to you.

3. I have no stake in any outcome. What does offend my sense of equity and fairness is the amount of slimy misinformation, fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD) that has been fed to you through the pages of Pprune over the years in connection with your pay and conditions, and the obvious distress this has caused many of you, and that is why I've posted.

rudderless1

20th Feb 2008, 20:13

Thanks Sunfish,
Interesting company stooges don't like paid union meetings either, they interfere with getting the full story to all those to make an informed decision which may play havoc with their spineless self interest. Chastising their crews for being so irresponsible for attending even though they had themselves.:yuk:

wingers

20th Feb 2008, 20:46

Sunfish, you should stick to text books , your constant self inflated opinions really drive me nuts.

I am not a gambler and your suggestion that we start playing poker with our finacial situations really is amazing.

Your lack of grasp of normal working people shows you are probably a retired Toorak or Vaucluse, or Peppermint Gove resident who has no grasp of the working man , all you seem to do is quote text books and accuse of FUD etc.

This is real life, not a text book, and i wont gamble my house on what if scenarios.

YOSHI

20th Feb 2008, 22:18

Having listened to the various points of view over the last few weeks I feel we need to stand up for one another. Although I would recieve about a 4.5% wage rise, I do not want to vote on someone else's roster!! I also do not want to impose a lower wage rise on other members of MY UNION!!

On the issue of the proposed roster "flexibilites", would it be possible for QE to impose the same type of 'chop and change' to ALL LAME's rosters if we include this in the current EBA proposal?

As we all know, a lot of ALAEA members read this forum, as do the managers, and to make any assumptions as to the feelings of the majority of members based solely on what is written here would be foolish. What I saw at the latest feedback meeting I attended was that ALL members present were unhappy with the current situation.

PIOT Bord asks about worlds best practice. Well, lets not confuse Worlds Best Practice with Worlds Best Maintained, Piloted, Serviced Airline. It would be more accurate to call it Worlds Best PROFITABLE Practice ( and that is Short Term Profit, as managers bonuses are based on annual results..... ).

Sunfish

20th Feb 2008, 22:40

Ripper Wingers - a personal attack and another dose of FUD at the same time.

I am not a gambler and your suggestion that we start playing poker with our finacial (sic) situations really is amazing.

Your lack of grasp of normal working people ...........................(rest of personal attack irrelevent and deleted - actually I was once a member of an aviation related union and I was stitched up like you have been more than once. I know exactly what it feels like to be the sole breadwinner with a baby and a mortgage, and my pay not keeping up with inflation)

This is real life, not a text book, and i(sic) wont (sic) gamble my house on what if scenarios.

Whether you like it or not Wingers, you ARE playing a game of poker. You have no choice. You collectively want more than the company wishes to pay. You either call their bluff and take PIA or you fold and take their offer.

It's your choice, thats why you were given a vote - assuming you really are a member of the ALAEA and not a managers sock puppet.

What you appear to be saying is "Don't risk it, PIA is too dangerous, just fold". You are entitled to your opinion, but if you fold, you'll never know if QF was bluffing will you?

P.S. The reason you stayed away from this discussion is that others smarter than me saw through you and your agenda, and you ran for the door.

Come on QF how about getting some contractors to try and swamp this thread?

rudderless1

20th Feb 2008, 22:44

Wingers,
I have a mortgage and rising interest rates, I need to pay for groceries and their real above cpi increases, I need to fund my childs education even at a public school, I need to pay private health cause if I don't I will be fined essentially or receive even poorer standard of access for standard items. I need to fund rising fuel costs. My real wage has significantly reduced over the last 10 years. The same period my productivity has significantly increased.

I do not get paid bonus's for poor performance like QF management, their real wage has increased astronomically along with their bonus's ,company profits, lies and FUD. The company performance is severely restricted by these clowns not the workforce.

The only Legacy left at QF is the management sitting at about 30% of employees not 10-15%. Piss off the deadwood and the baggage of bonus's attached to it and you could actually pay someone fairly to perform needed work. We don't need that amount of paper generators! These clowns continually implement things that don't work, and stuff things that do work.

I need a rise, I am confident enough in myself to expect it and fight for it. Inflation is 3.5%, wage inflation is 4.6%. QF's group wage policy is 3% and 10 years old and now well behind and time for adjustment.

QF profit increased again today and expected more again.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23250608-31037,00.html

Give it up, time to share or put it all at risk!:yuk::ugh:

Galley Raider

20th Feb 2008, 22:58

Reuters/AAP Qantas Airways Ltd has doubled its first-half profit, beating market estimates and said it was on track to achieve at least a 40 per cent rise in full-year earnings

I work hard. We all work hard. The profits keep soaring and yet I cannot keep up with inflation, interest rate rises, petrol prices, etc.

The 3% wage rise policy was only relevent a decade ago when the numbers were down. Watch the managers take their share of the profits while the staff get screwed.

Vote NO. Take 5. Not 3.

The pilots say No because they have some pride. LAME's, you deserve your real profit share.

The only 3% I will be happy with is a future with DC & MH gone!

knuckledragger1

20th Feb 2008, 23:34

What are we going to fight over?

When is 5% not 5%,

when 5% is taxed at 40%

leaving 3.6% in our pocket

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

not really a payrise

more like indexation to CPI

If we want a payrise, not pay indexation,

the goal has to be greater than 5%,

If the current offer is voted down, and we sit on the grass,

why not go for 10%

at least then it would be a 2.4% increase over indexation.

(10% - 4%(40% tax) - 3.6% inflation)

:D :D :D :D

Will the talkers - walk the talk?

we shall see.:rolleyes:

P.S.

I don't care what QE's worst or best position is or could be.
It is a good enough deal for me, and thats how i will vote.

Sunfish Bugger off.

:= := := := :=

Konehead

20th Feb 2008, 23:55

This is real life, not a text book, and i wont gamble my house on what if scenarios.

Wingers, I think you're being a little melodramatic. Have the pilots lost their homes for voting no - twice??
And did they end up with a worse offer??
Look at the big picture. In the current climate, the current regime expect to pay a higher price for labour. However, they would be remiss in their duty to maximise profits for the shareholders if they didn't try to reduce costs in real terms over time. Not to mention the corrupting influence of bonuses which play to human greed and self-interest. Put yourself in their shoes. Wouldn't you drive a hard bargain, the hardest bargain you possibly could, knowing you had a duty and a responsibility to do so, and to fail to do so would result in a smaller bonus?
By voting YES, you are doing more than just accepting the company's first offer. You are doing management's work for them, "keeping a lid" on wages growth. Let me point out that the lid, in real terms, is being screwed down tighter, year upon year.
You are accepting that you have a declining (in real terms) self-worth, when the majority of the worker-bees in a booming economy with no signs of negative growth have an increasing expectation of wage growth and have received it in the past.
You are accepting the way we have all been treated by the current regime.
You are accepting, to be more polite than is warranted, an aloof, "Us Vs. Them" management style.
I recently spoke to a former QF manager who left the company a couple of decades ago. He talked about how QF Engineering was almost revered around the world, how QF aircraft were maintained to such a high standard, that maintenance supervisors in foreign ports would 'pull rank' on their subordinates in order to work on the aircraft, because they were such a joy to work on. Now we have 1000 hour A-checks, no Sydney heavy maintenance, outsourcing to a greater degree, engines not lasting 6 weeks on the wing, the fleet kept flying with ATPs, LAMEs adding plastic sleeves to fit more hold items and pilots refusing to fly aircraft because of the combinations of defects. Wingers, are you saying that this state of affairs should be REWARDED by voting YES?
He spoke of the then management's respect for the role of the engineers. Where has that respect gone?
He also spoke of NASA. The head of NASA recently stated that after multiple disasters, they had made the best decision in the history of the organisation. That decision was to put engineers in management meetings to be the one to say, "Guys, I'm sorry but you just can't do that, and here's why..." Somehow the sad truth of reality on the floor escapes some people in their ivory towers.
So take a concrete pill and HARDEN UP.

Konehead

21st Feb 2008, 00:02

If the current offer is voted down, and we sit on the grass,

why not go for 10%

Ummmm, I think because we cant vote NO on an offer then ask for more than we previously did. I think that classifies as failing to negotiate in good faith.

If the current offer is voted down, and we sit on the grass
And who wants to sit on the grass anyway? What good are you doing? You cop a docking, get locked out and invite the rage of the travelling public and a till now supportive government. Better to stay in the system. You can apply more pressure and do far more for your cause.

rudderless1

21st Feb 2008, 00:24

So take a concrete pill and HARDEN UP.

I love it!:ok:

Sunfish

21st Feb 2008, 00:41

Knuckles:

The sole thing that we have absolute control of is our opinion.
Voting is the way we express this opinion

Right now we stand as 1600 odd seperate opinions yet to be heard.

The process for the EBA will tally up our individual votes and come to decision.

At that point, we will stand as one.

Be it for or against.

If the LAMEs in HM are strong enough in numbers, then their opinions will win the day, and I will sit on the grass with them.
However, if the result appears to hijacked by a small minority, I will be disappointed.

I will nonetheless observe my obligations and comply with what is requested by the Exec.

Let's hope the result is representative of the true opinions of our membership.

Woe betide the member who does not stand with his compatriots.

So basically you write meaningless drivel, try to sound assertive and aggressive, then conclude in two later posts that a better outcome is unobtainable, the deal can't be improved on, the amount is so paltry after tax anyway that there is no point in taking PIA over it (what an insidious lump of FUD) and that therefore you will take it as better than nothing. Perhaps with the unspoken suggestion that at the NEXT EBA you will get tough and get a real raise and win back your position

As I asked before: How would or could you possibly know if the company's offer is the best and only one that it is prepared to make?

I also note you joined Pprune in Dec 2007.

Others can draw their own conclusions.

I guess the next troll that comes along will raise the threat of further outsourcing if you don't roll over. Guys, you know they will do that anyway whether you accept their offer or not.

You are dealing with narcissists, they thrive on your pain and despair, it's like nectar to them, constantly reinforcing their self importance. Agreeing to this proposal will not raise your stature in the eyes of QF management (although as a negotiating tactic, they will tell you how "professional" you are to accept their proposal, your previous exec apparently got caught that way).

Nope, whatever you agree to, they will want more, and when you have nothing left to give, they will curse you and discard you.

It's up to you not me, and I thank God I am not in your situation.

Dragger of Knuckles

21st Feb 2008, 02:11

To Start off me hates sparkies, secondly me hates managers but enough of me
I have joined the throing of people on this forum for one reason only to express MY OPINION

In god's honest truth, if this deal negotated was the best deal ever by the union without going war as it was siad at our meeting , all it's work was undone by
Selfish , Stupid and Vindictive QANTAS MANAGERS
if they had keep their noses out instead of pedling lies and bullsh!t it may have got off the ground with the members seeing it's value.
This is there lies

- Everyone will get a level from this agreement

- XPT is gone and you think you've had a win think again we will bury you in other ways

- Now the rosters are in the EBA we will put you all in one bucket and the majority will override the minority

- AVV LAMEs will never go OS again with outsourced aircraft (Wannabe manager with a numbers obsession)

FFS idiocy knows no bounds, above info cortesy of my friends in Sydney and my own experence)

QF RECORD profits again will Geoff and his buddes take a pay freeze like the pollies NO HOPE IN HELL

All for one and one for all my ar$e

I will get my 5% out of this but is it worth my soul as hick as it is

I may be an irk but I don't lie to suit my needs my dad tought me that

knuckledragger1

21st Feb 2008, 03:55

Sunfish - bugger off

and you can quote me.

Have a nice day.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Sunfish

21st Feb 2008, 04:52

Knuckles, love:

Can we get a better deal?

at this moment i think not.

Exactly why do you think this????? Do you have a private line to God???

Why won't you answer my simple question??????

There is no way you could possibly know, there is no way I could know. There is no way even DC could know, and only one way to find out, because the ultimate decision, if push ever came to shove lies with GD and his Board of Directors.

Where do you think the buck stopped with the Wharfies dispute?

In the immortal words of Yoda: "Do or do not, there is no try."

wingers

21st Feb 2008, 05:24

Sunfish you donkey

Why are you giving your opinions in matters that you have no idea about

Perhaps you should join the union, become our leader and lead us into those great green pastures. It would be a good result for QF management if that was the case.

You really do not have a clue , just an idiot donkey with no concept of real life, go grab another chardonay you fool.

Do you really think that a gamble after an in priciple agreement would result in a bigger offer, i think you may well be a stooge set up to distabilise the ALAEA, people will see through you, you Donkey.

Short_Circuit

21st Feb 2008, 05:59

"Do or do not, there is no try."
Sunfish (& Yoda), I like your logic.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Yoda-ep2.jpg

The Mr Fixit

21st Feb 2008, 09:29

Whinger and Knucklehead

Time to crawl back under the rocks from which you came :{

Your time is at an end, the spine is back in the ALAEA :ok:

Time to stand tall

Sunfish you talk of FUD and I have an answer

I sat in an ALAEA meeting and was told with absolute HONESTY the TRUTH of what lay before us by men of INTEGRITY I have never asked for anything more

HIT (Honesty, Integrity and the Truth)

In other words they just HIT FUD for a six and they get my vote :D

QF22

21st Feb 2008, 09:52

Can anybody tell me when you guys are actually going to vote Yes or No ?

The Mr Fixit

21st Feb 2008, 10:06

QF22, sometime in march

QF22

21st Feb 2008, 10:47

Your Joking ! (I hope?)

Syd eng

21st Feb 2008, 12:45

March 10 was the date I heard.

QF22

21st Feb 2008, 14:18

Probably a coincidence but A380 training should have started by then.
Did the ALAEA and QF actually come to an agreement re training points/pay etc . . , or will QF just start the training anyway?

LAMEA380

21st Feb 2008, 17:43

Finally some backbone, well done comrades

Prediction

NO vote gets up
ALAEA left red faced after membership overules
ALAEA not a viable force wont be around long
PIA process starts
ALAEA days numbered
PIA action plan
ALAEA days numbered
PIA starts
PIA drags on
ALAEA days numberedbut wait a saviour is in sight

Members leave ALAEA in doves

into the loving arms of the AWU, to try to sort this out

This is great stuff,

OR

PIA starts, lock out ensues, and you all take less

ALAEA days numbered either way

this is great stuff

Sunfish

21st Feb 2008, 18:14

LAMEA380, and what is your prediction about Qantas market share and profitability during and after PIA?

mister hilter

21st Feb 2008, 22:07

AWU, Not a chance.
Mrs Hilter still says no.
Her reasons are that this company makes a profit of $1.4bil but can't share with employees, so who then does the money go to?
Shareholders will get 9 cents per share still leaving a lot left over.
Typical management practice.
5% is a fair offer and it's not very much.
If planes stop leaving airports, does it bother ALAEA members or management?
3% is not enough.
Manage money, manage biscuits, manage monorails, manage airlines, or manage people?
Do any one of these people realise that we MANAGE to get 300+ people off the ground every time we sign?
If we stop signing, then these people do not go on holiday, or to their business, or to see their long lost relatives, or anywhere.
You still so gung ho LAMEA380?

YOSHI

21st Feb 2008, 22:16

LAMEA380

QF have two choices

1/ NEGOCIATE a reasonable agreement,

OR

1/ Make us all redundant and start again....

Then see how many LAMEs return!!!!!

With unemployment at a 30 year low, a booming economy, a lack of skilled labour, how many do YOU think will return!!!!

My money is on not enough to keep QF flying.

LAMEs are reasonable people, but enough is enough.

grouter

21st Feb 2008, 23:09

YOSHI.
nice post.
I agree that we will all go and find other occupations, which is a pity as each of us were drawn to aeroplanes at a young age, and that you have loved them for better or worse.
With you I will vote no and go where that takes me.
All I ever did was look after aeroplanes and hence people, was that so wrong?
Good luck in the next few months, my friend.
We may need it.
G

The Mr Fixit

22nd Feb 2008, 00:01

A380/AP

Piece of ****e non member, resigned when new exec took office because he failed miserably to get any more votes than three in the election but he will still hold onto our coattails, can't wait to see you back on the floor then we will wipe you with it

Now that my spleen is vented

ALAEA is here to stay, Honesty, Integrity and the Truth no matter how unsavory at least we could make up our own minds with ALL the facts.

U.K. SUBS.

22nd Feb 2008, 00:44

Latest figures doing the rounds of HM at various ports of Lames walking; AVV scince around Nov last year to around Easter this year = 45.
BNE = 20 in one hit going to Mid East. MEL = 19 going to jhas, hdh and os.

Comment rumoured to be from brownie " shake their hand as they walk out the door"

Guess the letter from Darth to save HM in oz is more than likely not worth the paper it's written on.:suspect:

Konehead

22nd Feb 2008, 02:48

Let's be positive gents. GD will be gone mid next year (confirmed in an interview on ABC Lateline last night). It's a three horse race between JB, PG and the the leprechaun. I hear JB is the front-runner. His focus is on SERVICE. There's hope for this airline yet.
And I guarantee you, that DC and MH, if they last into mid next year, will not last under a JB leadership.
Anyone seen the latest ACS Update? The "customer, Qantas Airlines" (read "JB") has expressed concern at the large number of defects being carried by the aircraft. These have been identified as "risks" by the "customer". The mental giants of ACS management have identified several reasons for this. One of them being a lack of manpower, and another, logistics. They PAY people to come up with these answers? I thought it was self-evident!
To the likes of Insider Trader and the rest of the management stooges and trolls, I hate to say I told you so, but.... I TOLD YOU SO!

Sunfish

22nd Feb 2008, 04:29

There is an old saying :"Truth is stranger than Fiction". I learned this the hard way after I complained to my gorgeous work colleague that my boss was a rotten old bastard.

.........Little did I know she was sleeping with him:eek:

I think we are about to see what's called a "paradigm shift" around the world, it seems to happen about every twenty or thirty years or so.

The next one is with us now, and it's going to be to your advantage.

The last one was around 1980 or so. Financial Engineering, Marketing and Merchant banking were seen to be the new gods - the engines of growth for the world economy. "Globalisation", "Outsourcing". All this on the back of the capital asset pricing model and the Black Scholes option valuation model - you didn't really need to know anything about a business to value it, you just popped the numbers into a model (PAF will tell you all about it).

Engineers and engineering and trades were now held to be mere "commodities' that could be purchased anywhere or anytime at a suitable low price, if that is, you didn't simply decide to outsource your operations and dispense with troublesome labour all together.

I lapped all this up, got myself an MBA and jumped right in, dreaming of having dozens of underlings to lick the road tar off the bumper of my Porsche. Well possums, that paradigm has just about run its course, and by the time World financial markets have collapsed this year, being a merchant banker will be as popular as having leprosy.

How does this affect Qantas? In my opinion its going to affect Qantas for one reason. Lenders are going to look very very hard at borrowers, and if they don't like what they see, they aren't going to lend at anything like a reasonable interest rate. I wonder therefore, in a new world order how they are going to look at Qantas and what they will notice.?

I think they are going to come to a number of conclusions.

1. The bull**** idea that you can fly vast quantities of bogans, (or Chavs in Britain) all over the world on ten quid tickets for jolly holidays is going to be seen for what it is, a mirage. The Bogans and Chavs have been paying for this on credit cards and out of home equity. This is going to stop, and quick. The bubble has already burst in the USA. It will here too.

2. The cost of credit is going to become so high that market manipulation and cross subsidies between QF and Jetstar are not going to be supportable. You cannot afford to run loss making services to keep someone else out. Players whose operations are not absolutely transparent to lenders are not going to get money. Look at Allco - one day a rooster and now a feather duster.

3. Complicated, top heavy management structures are going to have to go. They are expensive. When you do "lifeboat drill" in a corporation (which means that there are not enough seats in the lifeboat and you have to decide who gets a seat and is saved) the blokes who don't get a seat are all the expensive Group General Managers and their hangers on (and HR Departments). Only productive and valuable people get a seat, not management drones.

4. Outsourcing, especially to foreign owned and controlled entities is going to be seen as a risk (not JHAS, they are local). If there is major financial turmoil, it is going to be very very expensive to hedge your financial risks, and God knows where the Yuan may head - yet you still want to send aircraft to China? What if the MRO goes bankrupt, leaving one of your hulls sitting in the dock?? What is the exposure of all your overseas suppliers???? What happens if the Chinese decide they don't like us because of our stance on Iran or Kosovo?

Now my opinion is that a lender in times of financial turmoil would want to look at lending to companies that have as much control over their destiny and operations as possible. That means that have minimised risk as much as they conceivably can, and a big part of that is maximising control over their own operations - by doing as much as possible in house, or close to home. That means having a lean management structure with power delegated as far down the chain as possible so that not too many managers are needed at all.

So how do the antics of the current mob stand up?

The various pronouncements and antics of QF management belong to the old paradigm. "Legacy airline" no less, the letter to Hamilton Island residents about Jetstar, the antics of the Queen, the multiple layers of management, "Group General Manager" this and that. The obvious contempt for those they employ.

What happens if Boeing has problems delivering the Dreamliner on time for financial reasons? What if European Governments cannot support EADS? What if QF cannot afford to borrow? So what is the state of the current fleet? Can we maintain it ourselves locally??????? What if the Yuan has gone stratospheric and we cannot hedge the Aussie against it at a reasonable cost? What if there are rumors of financial instability in China? Oh thats right, we just outsourced everything and fired our engineers....good thinking.

Under such circumstances you want your company to be self reliant, with control over as much of its activities as it can, so that it can concentrate on reliably giving its customers an excellent, safe product, at an affordable but fair price, no matter what international storms are blowing. A big chunk of that is doing your maintenance,.ALL your maintenance and overhaul, at home. Where its paid for in Aussie dollars, and you can see it's being done right, and you no longer care about whats happening in China, or Malaysia or wherever.

Qantas management is not going to survive the shock to the system of the current financial storm because they will be found to have exposed the Company to excessive risk. They have deliberately run down the core asset of Qantas - it's staff, and I think they are going to pay for it.

To put it another way, tradespeople are already in very short supply in this country. The financial storms that are about to hit us are going to make them very very valuable. Qantas hasn't discovered this.

Anyway I'm a boring old fart, and should shut up.

Konehead

22nd Feb 2008, 04:44

Sunfish for CEO! :}

LAMEA380

22nd Feb 2008, 04:52

Hey Sunfish,

Share price will not change, the only change will be the workforce.

Will be great to finally have the broom sweep through the place.

The Comrades will vote no, and the fun will begin,

Then QF will call the bluff and the poor old LAMES who are already overpaid will be left spinning without a job.

knuckledragger1

22nd Feb 2008, 05:35

It's funny that Sunfish is so concerned about his opinion, but can only express it here! :hmm:

Too bad you don't have a vote mate, :D

otherwise you could have made a real difference.;)

Sunfish - The definitive Troll.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

The Mr Fixit

22nd Feb 2008, 05:45

Magnificent

A380 Nobody and Knucklehead are the same twit

One less Fkwit to worry about

The only blood to be spilt will be yours .........and I can't wait, better hope Muzza stays around long enough so the ALAEA doesn't play the man or the members find out where you hide your sorry a$$.

Oh yes I can see the shiny shoes hanging out of MH's trousers

LAMEA380

22nd Feb 2008, 06:10

Hey Mr Fixit,

The only thing you will be fixing is a way to find a new job.

You and your comrades will get the big boot soon and then you will be able to see your worth in the market place.

The Yes votes will abandone the ALAEA, for them it is a good deal.

People such as yourself will then beg to reach an agreement

Domo,

the redunancy wont be an issue, as they will be sacked, they will not have an agreement and will all be on the outer looking in.

The Mr Fixit

22nd Feb 2008, 08:21

A380 wannabe

If abandone is similar to abalone you'll find it near the area where you dwell, bottom feeder :eek:

By the pale face we have your number :D

MR WOBBLES

22nd Feb 2008, 08:27

re post 416 sunfish

You are on the money

MR A380
YOUR POSITION IS NOT AS SAFE AS YOU MAY THINK IF THE BROOM COMES THROUGH .
YOU WILL HAVE TO START ALL OVER AGAIN & IF THE NEW MANAGEMENT IS NOT TO YOUR ILK YOU MAY HAVE ISSUES ADAPTING TO A LIFE ,
ACTUALLY FIXING A/C YOU GOOSE
REMEBER YOUR COMENTS LAST EBA ALL THE GUYS IN H245 ARE HAPPY
B^LL sH#T

I WOULD TRUST YOUR WORD AS MUCH AS A ONE LEGGED WH%RE WITH THE CLAP OFFERING A DISCOUNT

GOOD LUCK

PS I WILL VOTE NO

sickofqf

22nd Feb 2008, 12:09

LAME A380, the midget in so many ways!

The cougar

22nd Feb 2008, 12:49

Been over to MCC lately, standing room only! We all have to deal them directly to get anything done. These people work for QF, not QFE! Is it
making sense?

LAMEA380

22nd Feb 2008, 15:43

Hey Sickofqf,

wow you really think you got it all sussed out, makes me laugh.

Your still in the gate cause you didnt have the kahoonas to start PIA in the first place,

But looks like that will change, and in two months or so you may get another chance, so when you do get locked out i will be very happy to wave to you, or maybe not, but i will be the one with a cheeky grin.....until then, keep on guessin, you mental midget.

Sunfish

22nd Feb 2008, 19:30

Be aware that the three or so trolls each have a slightly different agenda.

Wingers is pushing Fear and uncertainty.

Knuckles is trying to confuse the issues by dissembling.

LameA380 is trying to provoke a violent response from someone - and if someone does respond violently or threatens violence, or threatens illegal action against QF then you can bet it will be in the press real fast.

I guess we can expect more trolls before too long.

wingers

22nd Feb 2008, 20:50

In a recent post It took you 1,098 words to big note yourself, you should have saved us all the pain and just typed the last 10 words you old fart.

I really cannot belive you, your are obviously a sandwich short of a picnic.

All i try to do is put a balance on things, its old farts like you who are narcissistic and talk about your MBA and your apparent knowledge, you have no stake in this issue yet continue to hide the possiblities of where things could end up.

You are trying to prevent logical debate, your feable attempts at intellectuality really sum you up.

It takes you 1000+ words to prove it, when 4 letters will suffice F O O L

The Mr Fixit

22nd Feb 2008, 22:41

Whinger, feeble is spelt with two e's as shown,
however moron is spelt w i n g e r s :ugh:

A380 your right in one area your identity doesn't matter as you don't either :eek:

Knucklehead I see nobody's at home :{

If what any of you had to say is constructive it would be worthwhile debating the topic with you unfortunately that is not the case

Vote YES or Vote NO but at least Vote

Whilst I do not completely understand the tactics of the executive I voted them in with 800+ of my brothers and sisters and therefore we must keep the faith

If they were doing a sh!t job why is management so god damned sh!t scarred ?

Standing up for us is the first step
Never backing down even when the going gets tough
1600 men and women depend on just a few now that's pressure, I for one are more than appreciative of their efforts so far and I have told them so. :D

Have any of you been man or woman enough to voice your opinion, appreciation or disdain or is backstabbing all you're good for.

wingers

22nd Feb 2008, 23:02

The Mr fixit - you should have been a school teacher, you are good at correcting spelling, but have a self admitted lack of understanding of what is going on. So you must be either stupid or just plain militant for the sake of it.

I have stated how i will vote, at least i understand what i am voting for, it has been explained and i feel it is a good deal for me.

You however you do not understand by your own admission what is going on and you will vote no, Need i say more?

Talkwrench

23rd Feb 2008, 00:35

Gday LAMEA380, Re: your post #422: ‘the redun(d)ancy wont be an issue, as they will be sacked, they will not have an agreement and will all be on the outer looking in.’ How did you come to the conclusion that the LAME’s will be sacked? Also, could you please explain how the AWU will negotiate a LAME agreement when they aren’t respondents to the LAME EBA? Finally are you currently employed by Qantas as a permanent full time LAME or are you commenting as an outsider? Thanks.

Millet Fanger

23rd Feb 2008, 01:07

I don't think you do know what you are voting for Wingers. I am also concerned that you are reciting a company line sprouted forth by at least 3 QE managers - "Is it a good deal for you?".

How about thinking about others? You said you have had the EBA explained. Was it explained that Qantas refused to take HM rosters out of the deal? How can you vote on someone else's roster?

Have you looked at Qantas' response on the EBA website to the question 'What roster can be imposed on me?'. Qantas says under the present EBA only an 8 hour shift. However under EBA 8 there are about 5 extended hour rosters that can be forced on anyone. Those rosters are the ones that the company wants to make sure are voted on in this EBA.

So although you think you know what "is a good deal for me", have you looked at the rosters that will be imposed on you?

The Mr Fixit

23rd Feb 2008, 02:39

School Teachers like LAMEs are undervalued and are not respected to the level they should be if they were more people would join our brethren

The classic line from you Whingers is

"I have stated how i will vote, at least i understand what i am voting for, it has been explained and i feel it is a good deal for me."

The last part being the clincher you don't give a sh!t about anyone except yourself and here I was thinking we were all part of the UNION

nuff said

On which way I will vote I will wait to see whether the company exclude the HM Flexibilities or the Heavy guys are satisfied.

At least this Exec has fought for us unlike the previous company lapdogs who would simply state "this is the best deal you'll ever get"

domo

23rd Feb 2008, 03:04

its up to management now, no doubt they have conducted their own straw polls or had stooges tell them the feeling at these alaea feedback meetings if they make us all vote on hm rosters and do not sweeten the deal its going down. and going down big time

The Mr Fixit

23rd Feb 2008, 03:21

I'm hearing you Domo, hopefully management is too :ok:

Dragger of Knuckles

23rd Feb 2008, 04:15

mmmmmmmm seems debate is being stifled

Long time reader 1st time poster

Brothers, Vote with your consciences not your wallets

Dragger of Knuckles

23rd Feb 2008, 04:32

I've always luuved dis one, it's an oldie but a goodie

The Proper Attitude

The Airline Transport Pilot....leaps tall buildings in a single bound, is more powerful than a 747, is faster than a speeding bullet, walks on water, and discusses policy with God.

The Multi Engine Pilot....leaps short buildings in a single bound is more powerful than a 707, is just as fast as a speeding bullet, walks on water if it is calm, and talks to God.

The Instrument Pilot....leaps short buildings with a running start and favourable wind conditions, is: almost as powerful as a Learjet nearly as fast as a speeding bullet, walks on water of an indoor pool, and talks to God if special request is approved.

The Commercial Pilot....leaves high marks when attempting to leap short buildings, looses a tug of war with a twin engine aircraft, can fire a speeding bullet, swims well and is occasionally addressed by God.

The Private Pilot....barely clears a camping tent, is run over by a single engine aircraft, sometimes recognizes a speeding bullet, can dog paddle and talks to animals.

The Soloed student Pilot….runs into buildings, recognizes a Cessna I72 (two out of three times), has never seen a speeding bullet, can stay afloat if property instructed, and talks to water.

The Non-Soloed Pilot....falls over door sills when trying to enter buildings, says “Look at the airplanes"; wets themself with a water pistol, and mumbles to themself.

The Engineer.....lifts buildings and walks under them, kicks airplanes out of hangers, catches speeding bullets with his teeth and chews them, and freezes water with a single glance……....

The Engineer is GOD. :ok:

Dragger of Knuckles

23rd Feb 2008, 05:05

PAF
You have know $%^&*( idea what's even in the deal, peanut !!! :rolleyes:
So keep you pathetic comments to yourself............stooge :E

rudderless1

23rd Feb 2008, 06:38

PAF,
As I am sure you realise the best way to to inject a less than satisfactory offer to a collective group of people is to keep them ignorant and infighting. QF has attempted to do this by taking nothing from the majority at the expense of the minority.
This is not democracy, this is a kind of pork barrelling often seeing in elections to get necessary votes to succeed. This works well if the electorate is self centered not caring what happens elsewhere or down the track.

It appears in this case the electorate has some conscious and ethics when it comes to their comrades. They also realise if not to take care of each other, who's conditions will be sold next by the majority not affected in a deal.

It is wrong to take advantage at someone else's loss!

In this case QF is injecting some nasty clauses for 25% of the population (heavy maint) and offering less than cpi to another 20% in hope that the remaining 50+ % are content whilst others are left behind.

It would not take much to work out why they do this. With this logic they only ever have to give a real outcome to 50% of the population whilst the rest fall behind.

A strong union will seek to achieve a good outcome for all, a union is as strong as its members and members are as strong as their ethics

I will vote no for this reason alone. Put this offer without selling out someone else, its still poor.:(

Thankyou ALAEA for encouraging and supporting the ethical conscious so we can all be stronger and offering a real choice when we vote.:ok:

Konehead

23rd Feb 2008, 23:26

After hearing what some from the executive have said about the feedbaack meetings and feedback emails, a significant majority will vote NO.
It appears that the majority has wised up to company tactics. A good deal on first glimpse, on closer inspection it contains a few booby traps.
The company seems to have over-played its hand. It will now be a victim of its own success. Opinions among the LAMEs have hardened, due to the the record profits, the A380 win, the worsening situation in QF Eng, the repeated stuff-ups from the higher-ups.
Just think, six months ago, this deal probably would've gotten across the line.
Roll on March.

The Mr Fixit

24th Feb 2008, 10:39

Dragger of Knuckles

24th Feb 2008, 10:47

Yes PAF I may be old but not stoopid, what people vote is there own busness

I just like too think they would consider others before they did so, my age group and ilk would be mostly liberal voters but I guarentee most voted Labor at last election because of how life in the future under JH's Workchoices would affect our children, I ask the same
Think of the children before you vote is there a future for them ?

Oh yes do you actually know what's in the offer or you still shooting from the lip ?

Konehead

24th Feb 2008, 11:13

Speaking to some Heavy Maint. guys they say the Flexibilities are the crux for them if in the agreement they will vote No, I know the exec has been seeking responses on this (re a previous notice) but what is the feeling in Melb /AVV ?

Most of these guys are lower levels and would not wish to go elsewhere but feel they are undervalued (don't we all) how can we help them ?

Will spilling blood get us what we want I am not sure, can anyone tell me if we can just separate this from the EBA and vote on both separately ?

I understand the company wants the flexibilities in there as a trade-off for 'commiting' to retain heavy maintenance in Aus. So I guess they are indivisible from the company's perspective. It's a Trojan Horse, the thin end of the wedge, a foot in the door, whatever analogy you want to use. Once these 'flexibilities' are in, we'll all be beaten around the head with them sooner or later - Base, Line AND Heavy. :mad:

Sunfish

24th Feb 2008, 18:28

It's a smart tactic QF is using: target a small group (eg: HM) for ""special treatment" in each EBA, but don't target enough to cause the agreement to go down.

Repeat targetting a different group each EBA and gradually "work over" your entire workforce.

Konehead:

I understand the company wants the flexibilities in there as a trade-off for 'commiting' to retain heavy maintenance in Aus.

Koney, they have already decided what they will do with heavy maintenance, it's a false choice, and my guess is that with financial chaos slowly arriving on our shores from the USA, the last thing a Board would want to do is to increase it's exposure to risk just now. I think they are bluffing because it just doesn't sound right to me, but that's just my opinion. Once your HM is out of the country, the MRO's will know it and screw you over unless their is intense competition for your HM work among them (and that's assuming they don't collude, remember this is Asia).

Outsourcing big time overseas involves accepting increases in three types of risk: Technical - "can they do it right?", Commercial - "Will it be done on time and at what cost?" and financial - "Can I hedge the Yuan or Singapore dollars I need to pay for it?". All of these risks can, and should, be manageable most of the time, but I'm not sure that they can be just now given the late deliveries of new aircraft and financial turmoil in the markets.

Furthermore, even if they write it into an agreement, all they have to do if they wish to move HM offshore is to stuff the mouths of the remaining HM staff with money (which would be chicken feed to them) via redundancy so that no one complains, then move. Thats if the lawyers haven't put in enough weasel words into the agreement to allow them to argue they can do it at will.

No Board is going to allow it's hands to be tied like that anyway.

The correct bargaining response instead would be to give them absolute freedom to move HM work overseas in exchange for vastly increased redundancy entitlements. That way both sides win......assuming you are both negotiating in good faith in the first place:p

aveng

25th Feb 2008, 00:58

Ummmm I just lived through 9 months of company imposed flexibilities (heard about what happened in Perth) and I wouldn't wish this on anyone!!!

To A380LAME: The company will spit you out when it suits them - we are all just ergs (work units) to them. Heard about a guy who retired after 40 odd years and they wanted his Qantas jumper back before he walked out the door.

QF22

25th Feb 2008, 05:55

VH-EBYleft S'pore lastnight all be it a bit late due lack of licence converage at SIAEC.
Word is 2 more 744's next month and a 767 ! ! !
So much for HM stayin ONSHORE ?
Which begs the question why do the QF LAE's come up to S'pore to certify for engine work and bail QF n SIA out of the sh!t, and why does the ALAEA allow it ? ? ?
I'm confused, "Please explain "

another superlame

25th Feb 2008, 10:43

QF always sends a few of their own LAMEs with any aircraft when it goes for outside maintenance,so this is not new.

QF22

25th Feb 2008, 13:02

Yes normally they supervise, but i believe this timw they had to certify bcoz SIAEC had sacked all the expat connies in a botched cost cutting exercise, hence CASA pulled the approval for the check.
BIG DIFFERENCE ME THINX !

QF22

26th Feb 2008, 01:49

Then why not just do the worki in Oz like we used to ? ? ?
With so much uncertainty with the EBA, and 2 more 744s going to SIAEC next month, why do the QF ALAEA LAMEs help QF out of this mess.
Why not just make QF park them on the fence ! ! !

Konehead

26th Feb 2008, 02:38

1. The ALAEA cannot ban LAMEs from going to SIAEC to help out. That is unprotected industrial action.
2. There are, to be polite, "short-sighted' LAMEs who will go wherever they're told by the company. If I wasn't so polite I'd call them F**KING GREEDY SELFISH SCABS.

QF22

26th Feb 2008, 03:20

I was thinking of using the same description of those guys but didn't want to be impolite.
I think the QF LAMEs n ALAEA have lost initiative and momentum.
One 747 has got thru a C chk at SIAEC all be it a month late due to lack of licence coverage.
Why let two more 744s get thru?
Why wait so long? March 10th i believe b4 the EBA vote !
Vote it down and park these two 744s on the fence !
Get the upper hand while you can !
This EBA debarkle has gone on way too long !
Good Luck !

Konehead

26th Feb 2008, 04:31

I think the QF LAMEs n ALAEA have lost initiative and momentum.
Have faith! It's what the company wants us to think has happened. Patience is a virtue. So is UNITY. Initiative and momentum are easily recaptured. The attitudes of many LAMEs have not changed overnight, after having been forged to a new hardness in the fires of managements arrogance, incompetence and bad faith. In fact, the more time we've had to digest the EBA, the less attractive it looks.

This EBA debarkle has gone on way too long !
Agreed. But to be fair to both the company and the union, some of this time has been because the union - at the members' democratically expressed request - played the game for our benefit, including delaying tactics prior to the last federal election. Also, there is a process to go through: consolidate all eight EBAs into one document; review said document for booby-traps; agree on changes if necessary; get the document out to the troops to review; give the troops time to digest an almost 100 page document; vote. Meanwhile in the background, the union and company are working on an accurate system to determine and in future maintain current info on the who, what, when and why of the level and quota system, which will help LAMEs determine where they are in the system, and subsequently to help them come to an informed decision. (As an aside, I do find it very difficult to believe that the company doesn't know to the cent what they are paying each LAME and why. It they don't - it's rank incompetence. If they do, what's the agenda in the lack of transparency to date?)

QF22

26th Feb 2008, 04:41

I would say incompetance!
Why an online intranet site was never set up for LAMEs to check n track their grades, I will never know. Yes peopleconnect and HR are incompetant.

Millet Fanger

26th Feb 2008, 05:15

Incompetance is too polite, and awards too much credit. It has however assisted the plight of QE LAMEs. As HR were unable to inform each LAME where they stood in the system we became suspicious. Our suspicion caused us to look closely at the new EBA. The more we looked, the more the dirty tricks were revealed.

It's about the only assistance QF HR have given us!

Sunfish

26th Feb 2008, 19:19

I would imagine Qantas HR would have a nice big spreadsheet of LAME grades and qualifications etc. and model the effects on the Engineering payroll of all possible negotiating options......I know that's what I would do in their situation.

sfde

27th Feb 2008, 08:31

They may have a spread sheet but from what I hear the accuracy of their records might be lacking some what.

QF22

27th Feb 2008, 14:48

Actually I Don't Think They Have A Clue.

Complete And Utter Incompetence ! ! !

division1

27th Feb 2008, 16:19

Having the BNE HM roster T&C's locked into the EBA offer seems
to be a big stumbling block against the vote getting over the line.
Could someone explain why it needs to be in the EBA agreement?

The Mr Fixit

27th Feb 2008, 18:43

Qantas will not give assurances around A330 in BNE and B738 in MEL unless they are, it will be up to those guys to decide if the commitment is worth the flexibilities. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh and JH Workplace laws means everyone votes on them if they are in the EBA but we knew that Customer payments, Quotas systems, DMM payments etc...........:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

I quote

:ugh:LAMEs Lament :ugh:

When they came for the Workshop LAME I did not speak up, for I was not a workshop LAME. (Sydney Engine Line, APU)

When they came for the Heavy Maintenance Lame I did not speak up for I was not a Heavy Maintenance LAME (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane)

When they came for the Outstation LAME I did not speak up for I was not a Outstation LAME. (Perth, Melbourne, Cairns)

When they came for the Line Maintenance LAME I did not speak up for I was not a Line Maintenance LAME. (Everywhere)

And when they came for me there was no one left to speak up for me :=

Konehead

28th Feb 2008, 10:05

In a perfect world, I wouldn't want to consider redundancy.

I just want a job I like again. An employer of choice. Managers who give and deserve respect.

In lieu of that, a F**KING HUGE redundancy package would be nice. The grass on the other side is lush and green, but just a little out of reach. I reckon I could get there, and it would taste SOOOO nice if only I could get a redundancy package... but us cone-heads are in short supply and will not receive redundancy - barring management reaching new heights of short-sightedness and incompetence. Oh, shouldn't be too far away then! :}

rudderless1

28th Feb 2008, 20:09

At Qf, HR haggles over what you are entitled too so they can split the difference between that and something less. At Qf HR have learnt how to really stick it in and twist it. They have some very good instructors in management. Marry style and Van Gogh and you have an extremely potent cocktail.

Must agree with Konehead though, whilst a redundancy package softens the blow, I'd prefer not to be hit in the first place.:hmm:

The Mr Fixit

29th Feb 2008, 08:08

Where is the love ????

HR says the Quotas are 100% accurate :yuk:

That's why there's a level 12/13 in every outstation with less than 20 years in the company and only 2 company types, no corruption here :=

No Style has done deals all over the place but still contends that the process is intact :ugh:

Johnny V

1st Mar 2008, 09:35

Do not spread Lies Fixit

The quota system is the greatest thing since sliced bread both for the company and the LAMEs, being that we've both pegged those fkn electricians back a few

Now the dumb a$$ knuckle draggers are being qouta restricted and they are starting to sook like women pity them fools ha ha

6% a year on average each LAME hard done by and when this EBA gets up it'll be rostering heaven for Heavy and ACS

lordofthewings

1st Mar 2008, 12:45

Not to worry. If EASA system ever gets in, itll be off to the workshops for most coneheads anyway. F.ck wont that be nice

Konehead

1st Mar 2008, 16:34

B1 Greasers asking B2 avionics guys how to rectify electrical defects. F**K wont that be nice.

lordofthewings

2nd Mar 2008, 00:12

Konehead, it will be nice...:confused:

Konehead

2nd Mar 2008, 09:28

Not to worry. If EASA system ever gets in, itll be off to the workshops for most coneheads anyway. F.ck wont that be nice
B1 Greasers asking B2 avionics guys how to rectify electrical defects. F**K wont that be nice.

Konehead, it will be nice...:confused:

LOTW, allow me to make my point more clearly: B1 (airframe, engine & electrical) LAMEs coming cap in hand to the few remaining avionics guys in the form of B2 (instrument & radio) LAMEs - those that haven't been packed "off to the workshops" - begging their help in rectifying an electrical defect for which they will have certification responsibility but no background knowledge, institutional memory, interest or experience on how to fix. My apologies to any mechanical LAMEs who find offence.

lordofthewings, you must work in Base where that long-standing prejudice survives and thrives. Pretty sad really. I thought we were ONE union. This kind of divisive "us and them" thinking is what has worked in the company's favour to date. Divide and conquer.

And I think we both digress from the point of this thread - the battle between the ALAEA (us) and the company (them). You should reserve your prejudice for your brothers working overtime at everyone else's expense. I mean, after all they are removing the pressure on the company, helping make a rotten system work and taking money from all our pockets in the long term - just to line their own pockets in the short term. We wouldn't tolerate a colleague stealing our lunch, so why do we tolerate the short-sighted and money hungry among us? BLACK-BALL THE BASTARDS!!! The sooner we get this EBA sorted, the sooner we can all get back to working O/T if that's what we want to do. And we'll all be working the O/T at a higher rate, not just some of us. Everyone's a winner. It just needs a little sacrifice from all of us, not the "everyone else is doing it so why shouldn't I" attitude.

another superlame

2nd Mar 2008, 10:54

B1 and B2 is already here ladies and I don't think it will change. Now the company will have all the power in who they licence and who they don't. Right now only Aviation Australia can do B1/2 training,QF training isn't even considering holding it. In fact they offered to buy AA but they didn't want to pay the asking price.
B1 training is about 20-25k to do the complete course which is what most framies will need, and I don't see many being able to afford that amount of cash plus the 3-4 months of time to do it.
So all you whinging coneheads pull your head in and just except it. This is a QF coup that has happened right in front of all of you. This isn't A380 specific this is for all new future aircraft.
And truly it can't be that hard to change a lamp or an LRU. It might also allow a/c to leave on time,as I remember it most last minute defects are electrical and trying to get a cone to leave the comfort of the smoko room is near impossible..
So B1/2 is here to stay get used to it.

Konehead

2nd Mar 2008, 11:18

B1 and B2 is already here ladies and I don't think it will change.
Incorrect. The Euros, esp. the Brits are looking at changing B1/B2 by removing electrical privileges from B1s and giving them to B2s. It appears that the Aussie system of "Avionics" and "Mechanical" is worlds best practice! What a laugh, if we in Aus cast aside a sensible system and replace it with a system the Euro's aren't entirely happy with themselves and might change.

And truly it can't be that hard to change a lamp or an LRU.

Granted. But have you read a next-gen aircraft's FIM? It frequently leads you down the garden path, when common sense and more importantly experience tell you to do something different, which usually turns out to be correct. You can't buy that experience. It makes far more sense to leverage off a high starting point than to play catch-up from a low starting point.

as I remember it most last minute defects are electrical and trying to get a cone to leave the comfort of the smoko room is near impossible..
Oh Diddums, did you tick the wrong box on your employment application? Jealous perhaps? Very unbecoming of a superLAME.

Again, we're off topic. Go find another forum to air your prejudice. Once again, we are ONE UNION, fighting for what is rightfully ours and long overdue - a fair deal! Superlame, I hope your next contribution is relevant.

lordofthewings

2nd Mar 2008, 14:48

Konehead, i am actually all for two separate trades. Just fishing for some bites.Love your work

Sunfish

2nd Mar 2008, 18:21

OOOOH! Look! A new management troll! - Johnny V

This one has an agenda of getting you LAMES to fight each other - the divide and conquer method.

Look at his posts, they ooze internal division:

Heavy maint dopes complaining and Line maint buttheads lauding their superiority......................

The quota system is the greatest thing since sliced bread both for the company and the LAMEs, being that we've both pegged those fkn electricians back a few

Of Course ACS will accompany these AC overseas as we have NO ONE LEFT IN AVALON who can go oh unless you are one of the 60 SLIIs that exist on the backs of FORSTAFF...

No threat pretty boy

Tulla to JHAS and MAS

Brisvegas 767s to JHAS and SIA

Scabalon to SIA and HAECO

So all you twerps plan on voting NO :mad: Pahhhh...

chemical alli

2nd Mar 2008, 21:39

this eba topic been debated and massdebated,
lets just return to some of the facts that every lame seems to have a gripe with.
the graded pay structure that nobody voted for but everyone whinges about.if this structure was not in effect then nobodies pay would increase,other then when an eba was voted on and then by only less than cpi.
would lames serving in base,sit,heavy actually be going backwards at a faster rate ? answer yes
unless capped, every four years you get a pay increase.
also for some of the right winged whinges look back at the award pre 97 and actually compare your licence payments,i think youll find you are much better off.
i ask the question if the offer now on the table was put fourth prior to the original offer with no nasties would it have been voted up ?
whilst angst toward management may prevail,do nto let it cloud your take home pay budget.
voting no on an eba will do nothing to fix the underlying issues of engineering.
not saying to vote yes or no just presenting some facts.
before the no 15% dayshift guys crucify me.i believe we should be fighting to have that re-instated as a major issue
as for the lames,lament. i am a lame of one but belong to a brotherhood of many,some have big cohonos some dont.and unless you are prepared to fight and i mean really fight, not just talk tough at meetings and go home to hand the trousers to your wife type hero. beware the path you may wish to tread.united we stand devided we fall.what its gonna be ?

another superlame

2nd Mar 2008, 23:27

Talking about EBA. Why is QF waiting until the last minute to name the people for the first A380 course. I bet they still have JHAS in the wings waiting for the EBA vote to come thru. They have aircraft arriving in 6 months and they are still bickering about training. This EBA is still hanging the A380 on the EBA decision. If it doesn't get through the A380 will stay in Australia and in Sydney but with non QF LAMEs. I am sure they dont want their latest and greatest to be held hostage to the EBA.

Insider Trader

2nd Mar 2008, 23:44

Firstly, chemical al(l)i, my eyes are hurting from reading whatever it was that you posted, to which i have no idea as to what it is. Poor spelling, lack of punctuation and use of capitals - I'm glad i do not have to read your tech log entries!

To the issue at hand. As predictable as night follwing day, the ALAEA membership has turned on itself, with the old "what's in it for me?" mentality once again alive and well. A couple of falacies should be corrected at this stage.

1) The ALAEA membership DID vote for the current LAME pay scale.

2) The ALAEA membership DID vote to 'grandfather' the 15% day shift penalty loading.

Also, the reality is that the grouping of A/F & AVI LAMEs in its current scope will also be 'grandfathered' with the new EASA system. It will be the function of the B1 category holder to provide the day to day line station duties of getting the aircraft back to service. B2 holders will play a different role in the new system, with more a Base Maintenance / Heavy Maintenance function. On top of that, the Human Factors instrument in the new EASA regs will require a re-structuring of the way maintenance is carried out, especially on night shift, which may mean utilising B1 and B2 licences in different ways.

Rostering flexibilty will become a reality right thru the industry, with single line rosters a very viable option as 'New Gen' aircraft come on line. To be so dismissive of roster flexibility is at the peril of your long term viability as a competitive MRO.

The reality is that the company offer is a very competitive one in the current wage environment. Your inability to agree amongst yourselves as to what it is you are fighting for is increasingly frustrating for both the membership who want to move forward, as it is for the company who are looking to secure the future of maintenance of QF onshore.

Ladies and gentlemen, time stands still for no one. Blink, and you may just miss out.

Big Unit

3rd Mar 2008, 01:32

Nice post Murray/Dave. Thanks once again for your valued input.

It will be the function of the B1 category holder to provide the day to day line station duties

Remember - Avionic MEL's dont go on forever. At some stage they must be fixed.

Konehead

3rd Mar 2008, 02:46

To the issue at hand. As predictable as night follwing day, the ALAEA membership has turned on itself, with the old "what's in it for me?" mentality once again alive and well.
So now you're a mind-reader! The info meetings revealed an overwhelming majority of LAMEs expressing they'll vote NO - estimated at 75%. You may say that mob mentality prevents the meek from expressing positive sentiments. However when the union requested confidential feedback from individuals in order to get a more candid response from the troops, the emails, faxes and phone calls to the Bexley Bunker started off pretty positive. But as people became aware of the booby-traps, the emails turned negative - now in total they closely reflect the 75% NO sentiment expressed in the meetings. People made those comments directly to the union, with no fear of being monstered by the mob. What's that tell you?
There has been an uncharacteristic outbreak of altruism among the LAMEs. They don't want to vote on someone elses roster, they want to see every LAME get a payrise beyond the 3% - not a minority or even a majority, but all of us.

A couple of falacies should be corrected at this stage.
1) The ALAEA membership DID vote for the current LAME pay scale.
2) The ALAEA membership DID vote to 'grandfather' the 15% day shift penalty loading.
This vote got up by 11 votes, with a large number of LAMEs not voting (morons who afterwards said "Gee if I thought it would get up by such a small margin I would have voted against it"). Then there are all the LAMEs who were AMEs at the time who have been shafted by that vote. And alot of those "grandfathers" have taken the redundancy money and ran. So I can safely say that if the vote was cast again today, that deal would never have gotten up. It would never have gotten up if EVERY LAME had voted at the time either.

Poor spelling, lack of punctuation and use of capitals

falacies

It's FALLACIES. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

It will be the function of the B1 category holder to provide the day to day line station duties of getting the aircraft back to service.

Spoken like one who hasn't actually worked as a LAME at a terminal. Or someone who has little understanding of the B1/B2 structure. B1 are airframe, engine and electrical. B2 are instrument and radio. Following your plan, who is going to sign for the instrument and radio defects and MELs? And at the risk of offending the mechanical brothers, you don't suddenly replace decades of experience rectifying electrical category faults by throwing a B1 license and an "Avionics Fundamentals" course at them.
As for grandfathering, CASA doesn't even know how they are going to manage it yet, so I think you're speaking a little prematurely.

The reality is that the company offer is a very competitive one in the current wage environment.

The reality is that groceries, mortgages, credit card bills, petrol, average wages, etc have gone up faster than LAMEs wages. The reality is, according to the RBA, that fat management bonuses are a contributing factor to inflation. The reality is, most LAMEs have had a gutful of the greed and hypocrisy of management. Managing is about LEADING. If you're not going to lead by example and tone down the bonuses, don't expect the workforce to moderate their wage claims.

Your inability to agree amongst yourselves as to what it is you are fighting for is increasingly frustrating for both the membership who want to move forward,

1. There is more agreement among the LAMEs than I have ever seen.
2. There is more fear in the eyes of management than I have ever seen.
3. the membership who want to move forward are the few who'd sell their colleagues, mothers and families down the creek.

Millet Fanger

3rd Mar 2008, 02:46

Another superlame, great campaign for the EBA "NO" case.
This EBA is still hanging the A380 on the EBA decision.
Do you mean, if the EBA gets voted down LAMEA380 (Sobast) won't get a course? I need no more persuading!

Sunfish

3rd Mar 2008, 03:19

Game, set and match to Konehead. What a concise and well thought out response to Mr. Trader.

Short_Circuit

3rd Mar 2008, 04:00

Ditto

what Konehead said

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

another superlame

3rd Mar 2008, 05:03

Do the Federal Executive of the association still have the power to veto a majority vote if they don't agree with it? They have done it before in Avalon just so they looked like to the good guys to QF management. You better hope they listen to what the masses want and work for you rather than do what they damn well please and accept this EBA on your behalf when you may or may not vote for it.

Clipped

3rd Mar 2008, 08:45

Is it just me or is there a deafening silence from both the Ass'n and the Co with their info/lobbying efforts.

I've received very little info, in any format, from both sides over the last couple of weeks.

Wondering why either would strategise as such, either being subdued or failing to build momentum.

What's going on?

Konehead

3rd Mar 2008, 11:05

From the latest ALAEA Notice:
"Members from not only Heavy Maintenance raised this issue (Heavy Maintenance efficiencies) which the ALAEA views as a positive shift in membership concern when LAMEs are collectively thinking of the rights and conditions of fellow workers in other locations."

Insider Trader, Johnny V and all the other trolls and stooges - are you listening? Altruism? Didn't I hear someone say "ALTRUISM"? Oh that's right it was me... :}

From the latest edition of eTorque:
"The ALAEA advised Qantas last week that a formal vote at this stage would likely see a rejected result. The parties are now looking at solutions that would address the concerns raised at the EBA meetings."

Read: "we're trying to wring more blood from the stone."

GO YOU GOOD THING! :ok:

Bumpfoh

4th Mar 2008, 09:12

$64 question is will they listen or continue on with their aloof & pompous attitude towards the LAME Assn as has been the case for the last 12 months of "negotiations"?

Time will tell but if I was a betting man..............:ugh:

Don't know what the grass looks like in your part of AUS but it's dry and dusty down south and we may have to acquaint ourselves with it some time soon if the company don't come to their collective senses in a hurry.:ok:

Konehead

4th Mar 2008, 22:08

Don't know what the grass looks like in your part of AUS but it's dry and dusty down south and we may have to acquaint ourselves with it some time soon if the company don't come to their collective senses in a hurry
You can be far more effective on the tarmac or in the hangar than on the dry and dusty grass. Thanks to your friendly neighbourhood incompetents, oops I mean managers, we have a labyrinthine system of PPMs, LAPs, Warranty claims, Form 500s, CROSS Reports etc to tie them in knots.
And I hope you're filling out your warranty forms. You'll be doing less hands-on work to the angst and chagrin of the higher-ups, hence applying just a little more pressure, but you're also indirectly making money for your local area manager. The warranty money flows back to his cost centre and contributes to his KPIs (what his bonus is based on), not to ACS or Heavy as a whole. So while your local manager will have the S**Ts with your increased enthusiasm for Warranty and decreased actual work output, he will not complain too loudly.
Forgive me for being melodramatic, but in the same vein as "The tree of liberty may occasionally need to be watered by blood", we can water the grass on our side of the fence with the sweat of all LAMEs pulling together for a common cause, and the tears of the managers as they see their bonuses evaporate, only marginally offset by Warranty claims of course...:}
That also means keeping our hands out of the O/T cookie jar - for everyone's long-term benefit. Enough of the "everyone else is doing it so why shouldn't I?" attitude! Take the long view, O/T piggies. There isn't that much moral difference between you and a scab. You're both acting contrary to the best interests of the membership. :ugh::mad:
There are only a few repeat offenders, but more than enough to help QE out of the s**t-storm they're in now. In a perfect world I'd like to see an overtimer quietly approached by a crew of guys to have a friendly chat about how it's in all LAMEs interests and especially his if you know what I mean, to not come in for O/T until after the EBA is signed. Then we may all be able to afford to actually go on holidays with our hard-won J14 priority...
Which brings me to something nasty I heard recently. LAMEs get on the flight based on their relatively sad Y-class onload priority, not their J15 priority. Once you're on the flight, well and good - that's when your J14 gets you in front of the CSMs and second officers. But with the load factors so high, you just don't get on the flight! :eek:
Anyone know the truth of this?

Insider Trader

4th Mar 2008, 23:06

Interesting, but if i am right in interpreting Konehead's remarks, then i am seeing a member of PPrune actively encouraging members of the ALAEA currently employed under the Qantas EBA to undertake 'unofficial' overtime bans, which is ILLEGAL! Any systemic evidence of this would be forwarded to the AIRC for an immediate resolution which, by any means would not be good for the ALAEA membership as a whole.

It would be a tragedy for the membership as a whole to see the hard work put in by both the ALAEA exec and the QF team be ruined by the rogue actions of a few trouble makers at this point. Both parties have reached an 'in principle' agreement which has now been digested by the ALAEA membership. IMO, it is a very generous offer and any issues with the offer by the membership should have been addressed with the ALAEA exec before an 'in principle' agreement was reached. The spirit of 'good faith' will be destroyed if the unwarranted actions of a few are invoked. It is simply not acceptable to come to an agreement, then bluff and point the gun once more.

As i have said before, the current economic climate doesn't allow for outlandish claims. The industry is dynamic, contracting and becoming more competitive at a rapid rate. Illegal, or irrational negotiation is at your own peril.

PS. As Konehead mentioned, it is only appropriate that ALL documentation is filled out correctly, and in a timely manner, IAW with the QF PPM. Failure to do so would be not carrying out your responsibilties correctly as a LAME.

The_King

5th Mar 2008, 01:45

Could Insider Trader and “M” be one and the same ?

They are definitely reading from the same “play book”.

Konehead

5th Mar 2008, 01:46

Interesting, but if i am right in interpreting Konehead's remarks, then i am seeing a member of PPrune actively encouraging members of the ALAEA currently employed under the Qantas EBA to undertake 'unofficial' overtime bans, which is ILLEGAL!

I am not actively encouraging anything, just expressing a personal opinion about what it would be like in my perfect world.
It is not illegal to be unavailable for overtime for legitimate/plausible personal reasons.
It is not an overtime ban if the union hasn't banned overtime, legally, illegally or otherwise.

Any systemic evidence of this would be forwarded to the AIRC for an immediate resolution

Good luck in collecting said systemic evidence. Would you like a stat dec stating my reasons for not working overtime?

It would be a tragedy for the membership as a whole to see the hard work put in by both the ALAEA exec and the QF team be ruined by the rogue actions of a few trouble makers at this point.

How times change. The previous ALAEA executive sellouts were saying the same thing about the current members of the executive before they were voted in. I see where the puppets got their lines from.
IT, You credit me with more influence than I have! LAMEs are intelligent, independent people. They aren't going to be swayed much by what they read here. If they were, then no-one would be doing overtime etc etc, the company would have been on its knees and the the EBA would be signed by now!
I fail to see how the "rogue actions of a few trouble makers" will have any effect on the membership, unless the rogues are those continuing to do overtime, in which case they'll be working to ease the pressure on the company to loosen the purse strings, not increase the pressure.

Both parties have reached an 'in principle' agreement which has now been digested by the ALAEA membership.

Digested and shat out. The agreement was an "in principle" one in that the union "recommended" it just to get something out to the troops after weeks of silence from both sides, in order to present it to the members for a vote. Unlike a company, a union is a democracy. The members have spoken. The vote would have gone down. The rogue actions of about 75% of the membership made sure of that. And now where are we? I quote the latest ALAEA e-Torque edition:
"The parties are now looking at solutions that would address the concerns raised at the EBA meetings."

The spirit of 'good faith' will be destroyed if the unwarranted actions of a few are invoked. It is simply not acceptable to come to an agreement, then bluff and point the gun once more.
You mean like training scabs?

As i have said before, the current economic climate doesn't allow for outlandish claims.

It doesn't allow for outlandish bonuses either, but tell that to the Board, the CEO, the CFO, DC and so on down the line of snouts in the trough.

The industry is dynamic, contracting and becoming more competitive at a rapid rate.

Contracting? Asia will soon be the biggest aviation market in the world. A growing market means more aircraft. More aircraft, more work. More competition, more opportunities outside the big QF. No-one's getting trained anywhere in the world in sufficient numbers to ease the worsening labour crisis in pilots and engineers. Market forces will prevail. It is inevitable. Just ask the J* pilots who knocked back the first draft of their EBA and ended up with a better deal.

Illegal, or irrational negotiation is at your own peril.
I'm doing nothing illegal.
I trust my very patient, calm and rational executive to negotiate on my behalf, because if I was forced to negotiate with that bunch of circus clowns across the table, I would have jumped across the table and done something highly illegal to them. With a baseball bat.

Big Unit

5th Mar 2008, 03:01

As i have said before, the current economic climate doesn't allow for outlandish claims

Hey Insider Trader. What exactly was the % figure DC's pay went up by again....48%. And exactly how is that justifiable in todays 'current economic climate'. FU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

5th Mar 2008, 07:46

Just Imagine What The Company Could Make If They Got Rid Of All Lame's And Engineering,they Doubled Their Profit After They Shut Down Hm H245

Sunfish

5th Mar 2008, 18:36

Great post, Konehead.

Mr. Trader is singing from the same hymnbook that QF has used in the past to stitch you up.

Dealing in "Good Faith" does NOT mean you have to take it up the backside.

You can be as feral as you like and still be in "Good Faith", nor, as a group, do you have to accept the recommendations of your executive.

The masked goatrider

5th Mar 2008, 21:01

Just a few thoughts I would like to share.

The Exec has recommended an offer - I imagine that there would never have been a formal offer if they didn't and they needed to test the water.

The Exec have done something that none in the past have done - They did not at any stage tell their members that this is the best you will ever get.

They should have taken action in January and better do it when the vote goes down. I will be voting no until they get 5% pa.

Insider Trader

6th Mar 2008, 06:01

For all those folks that are campaigning for a 'NO' vote in relation to the EBA agreement, i would encourage them to read this article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/no-extra-money-for-public-sector-wage-rises/2008/03/05/1204402556163.html)from the Sydney Morning Herald.

It is very interesting that the new Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, who, allegedly was to be beholdent to the Union movement, has identified that curtailing inflationary wage growth is critical in maintaining a hold on an agressive economy. Furthermore, he has indicated that any future wages growth must be productivity based. This is common practice amongst larger private sector businesses. The current 3% wage increase on offer to LAMEs under the EBA agreement IS NOT linked to an increase in productivity. Also the NSW govt. has put a cap on any wage rises for their public sector staff at 2.5%.

Those that are adamant that they won't budge until they receive a 5% wage rise may be in for a long wait.

Dragger of Knuckles

6th Mar 2008, 07:32

Time to walk the walk

WAR !!!! What it is good for ?

Teaching unscrupulous people a very big lesson in manners

They took my life but they cannot take my pride, roll on the vote me and bros in Avalon can't wait to pay them back for their constant distaste of us

We may have been rosemary's child but we know how that film ended

Vote NO

Johnny V

6th Mar 2008, 07:42

Walk the Walk ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ohhhh i've wet myself, you guys are sooooo precious

Gutless as the fish in a fishmonger's stall
Yellow as the sun
Spineless as whatever

The only ones amongst you that have shown any bravery are the POS exec members who fronted you with our very reasonable deal and BLEW IT by telling you it barbed wire and all

But don't worry we've got PC, WV, WB and BB sussed and they will all have redundancy papers by the end of the year then where will you be

Walk the Walk oh my .....................

The Mr Fixit

6th Mar 2008, 08:53

Johnny V, FU

Whoever has the balls stand up now and carry the torch

Send out the word to your brothers, actions will speak louder than words

I have read here constantly of men taking their own stance it is time we ALL stood, time is not our enemy it is our friend

A thousand LAMEs attended meetings all over this nation and spoke as one

We will not accept your deal, you out there raised your hands now live by your ideals

THIS LAME OF ONE WANTS TO BECOME A LAME OF MANY

NO is my simple answer and I will stand by it

Konehead

6th Mar 2008, 09:31

Kevin Rudd, who, allegedly was to be beholdent to the Union movement, has identified that curtailing inflationary wage growth is critical in maintaining a hold on an agressive economy.

1. The union movement knows it can't expect much help from Rudd. The past is the past. Old allegiances are forgotten. If there's a vote in it, Rudd will cut the unions loose.
2. That inflationary wage growth is a whole lot of horses that bolted. The leading pack is management bonuses. DC's 48% bonus being a leading example. Rank hypocrisy.
3. Who really cares about the public service. They're overpaid and underworked anyway.

Furthermore, he has indicated that any future wages growth must be productivity based... The current 3% wage increase on offer to LAMEs under the EBA agreement IS NOT linked to an increase in productivity.
Good idea, perhaps we should put a claim in to recognise the productivity gains of new technology foisted upon LAMEs like LAMEs entering online techlogs, PartSmart, online Form 500s, ADOC Navigator etc etc. And how about a share of the millions we put back into the business with warranty?
What about basing managers bonuses on how much business they bring into ACS and Heavy, instead of how much they give away to IASA, Rockwell Collins, Menzies, SIAEC, HAECO and JHAS?
What about improving our productivity by TRAINING US! Hmmm... let's see, B767 Radio, A330, B744ER, B738, engine runs, instead of this TowSafe, Take5, SafetyMate etc bullsh*t.

Also the NSW govt. has put a cap on any wage rises for their public sector staff at 2.5%.
The NSW public service is the most bloated and overpaid in the country. It is why NSW is the Pauper State instead of the Premier State. They can handle winding back a bit, as their pay rises have far outstripped both average wage rises and inflation in the last decade - unlike LAMEs who have gone backwards in real terms in the same time.

Sunfish

6th Mar 2008, 18:48

Konehead 1, Trader 0.

Dragger of Knuckles

7th Mar 2008, 19:29

My last post had an edge to it and while I wont be backing away from it's statements I wold like to clarify some points

War would teach us ALL a lesson, the company bad, us I believe good

After attending the exec meetings I saw men who said they would stand by us whichever way we voted if the deal is bad VOTE NO and we will fight on.

We told them on mass NO, they didn't cry "Idiots this is the best deal you'll ever get"

This is being deliberatly dragged out by the company to wear us down, I say if my leaders can weather the storm so can I. The Pilot group voted their deal down twice, no IA, but still got a better deal than first and second offereed. Pornstar pilots voted their offer down and got a 17% increase it only got voted up (53%) when the compnay kept AIPA out, ALPA in and 77 AWA holders allowed to vote

In the film the Magnificent Seven and old man tells Yul Brunner "Farmers, they are scard that it will not rain and they are just as scared that it will rain too much"

Do not be the farmer be one of the M7 and stand up for your right share of the pie we don't hav to go to PIA to get what we want WE JUST HAVE TO DO OUR JOBS

PIA is an excuse for the p!ssweak and moraless who continue to do overtime, secondments and scab on their mates they will also be YES votes

STAY LONG STAY STRONG VOTE NO

mister hilter

7th Mar 2008, 19:49

All this posturing on here, whilst good to see, is futile. Bring on the vote and let's play 'em where they lay.
Mrs Hilter still says NO.

PIOT Bord

7th Mar 2008, 21:24

I do not understand the QE / DC & MH stance on the whole EBA issue. They don't seem to be able to communicate it, can anyone else? I.T. does it make sense to you?

In order to have a win on some fairly minor issues in the EBA, QE delay and obfuscate the whole process. Initially only the militant were incensed but this has now grown. The vast majority of LAMEs are pi**ed off about the whole deal. Does QE not understand the difference in productivity from a demotivated workforce?

A/C are being delayed because LAMEs dealing with a defect who know a work-around rectification method are electing to follow the companies laid down procedure. Three months ago such a situation would not have even been contemplated. These are LAMEs who used to be known as "company men" (not of the suck hole variety).

Work is being refused to be done because "we have no training and there is no one trained who can supervise". Supervisors are just shrugging their shoulders and walking away. DMMs seem to understand, why doesn't QE management?

DC & MH might be working to a grand master plan but the whole place is falling into a heap while they get there. I would be surprised if the vote for the EBA isn't rejected by more than the 88% who voted for PIA.

I repeat, PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!!

Konehead

7th Mar 2008, 23:29

This is being deliberatly dragged out by the company to wear us down,

IO has admitted/bragged as much in the EBA meetings. This fact alone should harden everyone's resolve. It shows that while negotiations are going on in good faith, there is little good will. So be it. Let them reap the whirlwind.

The Mr Fixit

7th Mar 2008, 23:39

My resolve is hardened
My patience immense
The supervision have less faith in the management than we do
Bring it on

Redstone

8th Mar 2008, 03:05

what has happend to the sc@#$ are they sitting at home on $2,000 a week, if we lung it out they will get their $40,000 bonus soon

Not our problem, DC's business. If he wants to throw cash around like that, then good luck to him.

I have waited 15 months now, I can easily wait another. Rumour had it that the company were desperate for an outcome....... well the ball is in their court and if this were true it just highlights how bloated and top heavy the joint has become the wheels grind ever slower and slower. We can all see where the savings must be made and the axe weilded.

Clipped

8th Mar 2008, 07:58

Not our problem, DC's business. If he wants to throw cash around like that, then good luck to him

DC - Spend 10 million to save one million.

It would be shrugged off as a whine if it weren't so tragically true.

Konehead

8th Mar 2008, 16:46

And what about the extra layer of management between MACS and DMMs - the "ops manager". It's an admission that the MACS have no idea about the operations they manage. Beautiful! One for each terminal, one for Base and one for each Heavy, and my guess is another for A380. Another $140K - $150K per manager down the tube, and another LAME/SLAME/DMM gone off the floor to do a job that the MACS and DMMs should be able to do between them. Back of the envelope cost: 11 ops managers on the east coast alone - $1.54M.
It beggars belief. We're already top-heavy in management in general in this company, and now we're adding more. Definitely a case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

another superlame

10th Mar 2008, 22:35

Well the 380 boys have started without an EBA in place I think they have left themselves open to abuse by the company. True?

division1

11th Mar 2008, 01:36

I wonder if gd has had time to digest the proposed training bank system.
Another brilliant initiative by the executive, something for every lame and
a face saver at the 11th hour.

Acute Instinct

11th Mar 2008, 08:43

where 2 next

binrow

11th Mar 2008, 09:57

well if you work in brisbane h/m, the next seems to be vote with your feet and head to the sandpit with Etihad 1 bloke already there 2 recently handed in the paperwork and 2 have recently got their start dates.

stick you heads up your ar$e or in the sand and BINGO your cost will come down as you have no LAMES to pay.

Big Unit

11th Mar 2008, 10:12

Whilst i appreciate the efforts of the exec, the training bank system means sweet FA to the base guys. Apart from a single a330 course we haven't seen any training for the last 3-4 years - thanks again to the brilliant thinking of MH. Congrats MH on completely disengaging your workers. Now where is that voting form again....

rudderless1

11th Mar 2008, 11:11

that why the training bank would be of particular value to base and anywhere training is restricted!:ok:

Rotor n Wings

12th Mar 2008, 07:54

Don't knock the big Q got a cake today (think only about 3% but tasted OK) had to look hard thought packet was empty.

Redstone

13th Mar 2008, 04:14

If the Fed Sec is under the impression that a "training bank" is the sweetner that will seal the deal he is delusional. Enough is enough. If this is what we have been waiting for, then it's not good enough. Just put it to the vote.

This entire process has played out better than we could traditionally have expected, but not better that it could have been. I think certain individuals will have to take stock and will need to pull their socks up when this is all over.

rudderless1

13th Mar 2008, 05:02

This entire process has played out better than we could traditionally have expected, but not better that it could have been. I think certain individuals will have to take stock and will need to pull their socks up when this is all over.

LAME's need to pull their socks up now, its not over until the members say yes and accept.

Its a shame half wits cannot work out what damage they do by making a broken system work.

Stop making it work and have it fixed!:ugh:

Too many LAME's can't cope on their current wages yet by allowing the wages to be wittled away they can?

Each 1/2% reduced outcome is a 12 hr day OT required per year! That does not cover compounding issues over the years for future negs either.
Average wage inflation is 4.5%, we are looking at essentially 3%. Remember, training is skill enhancement and is separate to inflation.

domo

13th Mar 2008, 05:41

Each 1/2% reduced outcome is a 12 hr day OT required per year
I work out a 12 hour overtime is worth more than 1% of basic wages.
52 x 38 = 1976 hours a year, I was going to add the 5 weeks leave and the 5 d.i.l.s

rudderless1

13th Mar 2008, 09:52

Realise this!
If we settle for 3% again whilst wage growth is 4 1/2 %-5% and rising and has been above 3% for a long time! Do the sums, its death by errosion and must be stopped.
$2000 last year is the 2% difference add that to a further $4160 due another loss of 2% = $6180 after only 2 years with 2% less. After 3 years its $6491
eg at the end of
2006 $100 000 $100 000
2007 $103 000 $105 000 $2000
2008 $106 090 $110 250 $4160
2009 $109 272 $115 763 $6491
# $12651 further out of pocket in only three years compared to the average wage inflation on a $100 000 income. This is additional to what has already been erroded!
When will people accept for our skill, and a 24/7 shift etc we are not paid that well.
More than half the LAME's are less than level 9 and cannot move past it.
The basic pay of a level 9 is $77 000. To be a level 9 generally you hold a number of licences to this figure add shift between 7% and 38%.
Single licence holders in the shed are well off the money at around $75 000 to $80 000 all up for their skills and shift!
Last edited by rudderless1 : 5th January 2008 at 13:29. Reason: incorrect years
rudderless1 is online now Report Post

So as I say 12 hour OT = roughly $1000
Loss of 2% over three years = $12651/$100 000
or say 4 days PER YEAR for 3 years
or say 1/2% = 1 day per year.

AM I WRONG?
Continue doing OT you may as well see your working week extended to achieve the SAME real wage, whats the difference?
Your starting point at next negotiation will also be smaller!:sad:

600ft-lb

13th Mar 2008, 11:31

12 hours ot = $1000 ?

For me its probably closer to 2/3's of that. I dare say thats the case for a lot of people.

rudderless1

13th Mar 2008, 12:07

Level 9 or 10 around $40 an hour
12 x 40 x 2 = 960:ok:

division1

14th Mar 2008, 11:19

Supposing the heavy maint ballot approves of their efficiencies
and shift patterns formalised in the eba, will we get to vote on it?
The suspense and melodrama is killing me.

NAS1801

14th Mar 2008, 12:38

Mrs Hilter still says NO.

would that be Mrs Edward Elizabeth Hitler?

Millet Fanger

15th Mar 2008, 01:15

You will get to vote on the "Heavy Maintenance shift pattern efficiences" when you vote for the EBA. If you're smart that will be a NO vote.

QE has stated that if included in the EBA the "Heavy Maintenance shift pattern efficiences" will be able to be forced on anyone in engineering, i.e. Heavy, Base, Line, A330, A380, B787.

As far as Qantas is concerned, these are Qantas Engineering shift pattern efficiences. Vote yes for an eba with them included at your peril.

Konehead

15th Mar 2008, 08:42

The suspense and melodrama is killing me.

Imagine what it's doing to the MH & DC...

As far as Qantas is concerned, these are Qantas Engineering shift pattern efficiences. Vote yes for an eba with them included at your peril.

Let's wait and see what the HM LAMEs say about the inclusion of HM efficiencies in the EBA.
If they overwhelmingly vote NO, it's a pretty good indicator that the subsequent EBA vote will go down, without some seriously juicy sweeteners.
If they overwhelmingly vote YES, there remain some powerful reasons for ALL LAMEs to vote NO on the EBA:
1. not everyone gets a level increase during the life of the EBA.
2. the flexible rostering will open a Pandora's Box
3. the quota system: only getting into the higher levels through a full type course; and the service points and the orphan training points being completely useless, when only the anointed few are getting any training despite clear evidence of manpower shortages in BNE Heavy, SYD Base & Line, AVV and MEL.
4. entry level LAMEs are still going to be paid less than high level AME's. What the...?
5. If you need more reasons to vote NO, just read QE's FAQ's on the intranet. There is plenty of bad news straight from the horse's mouth.

And the training bank: sounds good till you think about the implications. We're LAMEs. The only career progression many of us desire is to be trained on a new aircraft type. There is no training, so three weeks per year in the training bank that we can cash in every year is a poor substitute for a type course and a level increase, if you're lucky enough to be uncapped. And to suggest using the cash toward paying for external training, is this something we want to encourage? What will we pay for next? Basics? License renewals? Uniforms? If the eternally optimistic among us keep the three weeks per year in the back pocket for training, that's cash in the back pocket we go without till trained. If ever. If the heavens open and training rains down, those of us who cashed in because we needed the money (who doesnt these days), find ourselves bonded. I thought bonded labour ended when serfdom was abolished. I don't want to be a slave to this company! Apprentices aren't even bonded, merely indentured. What a retrograde step for QF LAMEs!
To the exec, nice idea in theory, but I'll STILL vote NO. I'm happy to go on an 8 hour shift, or an O/T ban or whatever it takes to get a FAIR DEAL!

PIOT Bord

15th Mar 2008, 10:24

Good post Konehead.

From the straw poll I have taken, I don't think there is much support for the EBA as is down here.

Johnny V

17th Mar 2008, 02:32

If the heavy maint guys know what's good for them they'll be voting yes all the way, besides they don't and never have had the backbone to stand up.

You perfect ACS LAMEs have only backed their position as an excuse for your own failings

Do us all a favor and quit the bull****, you know you're weak as p!ss, we know you're weak as P!ss vote yes on the EBA and sign your doom.

The big boss knows this as IO has informed him that it is only the exec that stand in the way of this deal getting through and their days are numbered

They have played a good game but the membership are pathetic, squabbling over overtime, who'll get the next trip OS, who'll get the next course

Training Bank !!!! Let me lay it out if it's a Union idea it's never gonna get up with us, we will never bow to you.

Sign up and sign your future to us, do it now.

ALAEA Fed Sec

17th Mar 2008, 06:33

Thought I'd have a quick look over this way. Check your notices boys and girls HM vote just went down in big way both Bne and Mel. Thought I'd also like to explain a bit about our process and the decisions we make.

This site is regarded quite highly by the ALAEA as the feedback here is likely to reflect what we also see in secret ballot results. LAMEs can say what they feel without having their manager reported to by particular people who attend union meetings to report on the troublemakers. We also cop some flack here, some of it fair, sometimes not so but thats life.

The ALAEA know an EBA vote now would go down. The Qf ALAEA Execs met a few weeks ago to discuss this and what would be likely to get it up to the satisfaction of a large majority of members. We went around the table and a dozen different opinions came up. The one we settled for after about 4 hours of debate was the training bank. Qf were advised and a formal response will be given tomorrow. Why a training bank?

First we need to look at some problems our members, Qf LAMEs and the Industryfaces. The solution needed to satisfy all.

- we need to encourage more training because there is an acute shortage that is putting undue pressure on our people.
-our members want a future and career opportunities.
-some members just want money.
-some think that the EBA has nothing in it for them, this gives to all.
-Qf will do anything to protect the 3%, ok we will take something worth more than 5%pa and you can keep your wage policy.
-some managers think you can just let a business whittle away and then move on, I think we are in that stage and need something to stop it.
-if Qf are paying for training they may as well use it.
-If Qf then have more licences, they may as well utilise them.

The list goes on. The most important consideration of all though was the reality that we have all faced some time in our career, the golden boy treatment that others receive. It seems to be worse now than ever. We have a manager with a big bag overflowing with money from his bonus because he has taken your training away. He sits up in an office and walks around with his training/cash bag and says, come to LAMEs, I control your destiny and future and if you do as I say, I may give you a little training in return one day.

That training inevitably goes to the ones who never find anything wrong with an aircraft. When you put non engineers into these positions, they think you are a troublemaker if you find something wrong with a plane. We want more than anything out of this EBA to take that power away from those who don't know how to yield it.

Give the training equally to all. Give the overlooked cash instead if they dont get to the college of knowledge (3 weeks extra per year). Give them a free option to train elsewhere. Give them an opportunity to advance their career even if they don't live under a desk and give this country back what a select few have managed to destroy when they were appointed as holders of the bag.

cheers

Ngineer

17th Mar 2008, 08:00

Although the training bank is no substitute for actual training, this EBA is about remuneration, not a type course for everyone. Sit down with a calculator and do the sums of the training bank, especially if it accumulates over 5 years or so. A major selling point to the company about the training bank would be that it costs them NOTHING, that is until it is cashed out.:D

numbskull

17th Mar 2008, 12:52

After 20 yrs I took VR in 2006 because of no training prospects and substandard pay rises ( I wasn't a golden boy and I wasn't going to sell out my mates to get ahead).

I found a new job within two weeks and my new wage was equivelant to my base wage as a level 9 LAME ( Less money all up but I was happy as it suited me not to work nightshift or weekends after 20 yrs).

I recently recieved a pay rise of 5% plus 3 weeks pay as a bonus. This is equivelant to over 10 %. In addition to this they will pay for my course that I have enrolled in at Monash University as long as I pass. (this is in contrast to no pay rise since 1/1/2006 and no prospects of further training if I stayed as a LAME)

I loved working as a LAME and I would love to go back (new job is OK but boring- certainly not as hard as being a LAME). But I'm not going to go back for substandard money and to be treated with contempt by management.

ALAEA Fed Sec, until you address these fundamental issues you are going to haemorhage LAMES, AMES and apprentices from the industry and your own union and you will not get them back.

The membership has spoken several times by secret ballot. We all know QF management don't listen. When are the ALAEA going to act on the votes of your own membership?? How many more secret ballots do you need??

Bullies like QF only understand thing. The law of the jungle. You have the power to rip their throats out if you only have the guts to bare your teeth!!(and they know it!!)

I can only assume that Julia Gillard has been whispering sweet nothings in you ear as protracted industrial action would severely impact the economy and look very bad for the ALP soon after gaining power. You seem to have gone very soft since the ALP won the last election.

Eyeing off a position in the ALP now that you no longer work for QF?? Maybe that's a bit harsh as your leadership has been a vast improvement on your predecessors.

The members have spoken. Will you lead them???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????

Konehead

17th Mar 2008, 19:40

I have done the sums on the training bank.
An A330 course runs to about 12 weeks, then there's 2 - 3 weeks PCT. 15 weeks training total. If I get trained tomorrow, I am bonded for 15/3 = 5 years! That's longer than the A380 bond!
For a 738 course, it's about 4 years bonded.

ALAEA Fed Sec, congrats on thinking laterally (although I still don't like the training bank), having some moral rectitude and spine, and for saying it how it is. I'm sick to death of the favoured few whose faces and compromised attitudes fit the corporate mold, while the quiet achievers fail to get the recognition and rewards they deserve and have a right to expect.

ALAEA Fed Sec, until you address these fundamental issues you are going to haemorhage LAMES, AMES and apprentices from the industry and your own union and you will not get them back.
It's not up the Fed Sec and the union alone to address the issues you mention. Someone in QE management needs to take a fall for the disengaged workforce, the change for change's sake, the total balls-ups of the last few years. And it WILL happen, if JB becomes CEO. Maybe sooner than you think.

I want a manager who can talk to me man to man, not a corporate drone spouting rubbish about getting out of Pity City, crossing the as yet incomplete Bridge of Trust and entering the Intelligent Space, where we can all feel warm and fuzzy about the Four Pillars and the KPI's while we talk endlessly about business cases but don't actually DO anything. COME ON!!! Let's talk about how we can make some serious coin for QE, rather than strangle a world class facility and workforce with your narrow-minded, short-sighted, nepotistic culture of greed.

Memo to the Circus Clowns in Mascot Castle: Here's my business case.
1. Attract business. Surely you over-educated MBA freaks can go back to uni or shock-horror the REAL WORLD and learn how to do that. Yes that's right - MAKE MONEY! That's what being in business is about.
2. Once we're making a little money, we can...
3. spend some money to have our facilities and staff look and perform like a Centre of Excellence (instead of a Centre of Excrement run by King Sh#t of Turd Island and his minions of Cold Farts Warming Up) so we can...
4. make some more money.
5. Reward, appreciate and develop your staff along the way, so they continue to help you make more money. A happy employee is a dedicated and productive employee.
6. Oh, and keeping your competition out at all costs - even if you're only breaking even! Because once they reach critical mass, in a tightening worlwide labour market, they will eventually poach your staff with the recompense and the respect you failed to give them. Customers and staff are like sheep. Once someone shows them the way, they'll leave you in droves.
7. Put the required staff back in Maintenace Watch instead of ripping them out! That's called returning to your core business - maintaining aircraft to a world standard, something we did for 80 or so years until recently. What's the point of talking to MW if the reply is "Sorry, but we don't have any Avionics coverage on tonight", or "I'm not exactly current on that aircraft type."

These business fundamentals seem to be sadly lacking in QE. Instead, we have a team who put together a bid on the A380 designed to deceive the "customer" into thinking it can be done with a minumum of workophobes, suckholes and special project wallahs with pr*ck-fingers. Has anyone noticed that nearly half the "LAMEs" being trained on the A380 will end up in Maintenance Watch, or some other office, with a "Manager, this that and the other" title? WHO"S GONNA DO THE WORK?

They tell us this is their strategic vision to secure the B787 maintenance. But it wont take long for the "customer" to realise that they've been deceived. Then what credibility does our B787 bid have? If the "customer" gets an inkling that they are facing another debacle that is likely under the current A380 maintenance plan, heaven help QE!

The tide will turn. Perhaps as early as tomorrow! Let's together create the gravitational shift that will help get it moving. 8 hour shift; O/T, secondment and higher duties bans; work to rule (as painful, frustrating and stupid as it is). All these and more are tools in our hands. I simply cannot wait for the company's attempts to break us. We are one, and we are many. For once we have refused to be divided. We have an exec who are smart and strong, leading, listening and communicating. We are behind them, and they are behind us.

Slackjaw

17th Mar 2008, 20:31

After my last post at least I see that we are now thinking for us as a whole.

I see yesterday at least the Ramp actually have a backbone, they went for a work meeting and the company being the people they are again enforced the 4 hour docking as per their idiot's guide to managing an airline handbook.

They stood firm absolutely willing to support THEIR cause, the company backed down. So inspiring, such a demonstration of the power of a UNITED front with a union executive REPRESENTING the rank and file. Instead of pleading with them to accept.

The company had a scab labour force for ramp and you might say they are easier to replace, yet QF BACKED DOWN. They have nothing but scare tactics and bullying.

You want feedback? why don't you start representing what you said instead of saying you can't change it? Why don't you start doing what the membership wants. Your credibility is being questioned, the membership can hear your deafening silence.

ALAEA Fed Sec

17th Mar 2008, 22:16

Eyeing off a position in the ALP now that you no longer work for QF?? Maybe that's a bit harsh as your leadership has been a vast improvement on your predecessors.

This is a bit harsh. I am not and never have been a member of any political party. I find politics rather boring.

An A330 course runs to about 12 weeks, then there's 2 - 3 weeks PCT. 15 weeks training total. If I get trained tomorrow, I am bonded for 15/3 = 5 years!

When did you last do a course? If it was in the past five years there may be a bond. Maybe you did your last one 10 years ago, you would then have 30 weeks training up your sleeve or 30 weeks pay if you want to leave. The proposal is retrospective.

If and that is a very big "if" Qf accept the proposal, wait until you see the detail before you knock it.

wingers

18th Mar 2008, 01:21

You are to be applauded for the way you have handled this, i have knocked you in the past however you have won me over.

I think that your leadership has shone through and the approach you have taken is firm, no nonsence, yet pragmatic.

Hopefully we can sort this out soon and get on with things. Lets hope that an agreement suitable to all is around the corner, some will never be happy but you cant please everybody.

Good luck keep up the good work.

PIOT Bord

18th Mar 2008, 09:00

I too think the present exec. have done a reasonable job of things so far. 5% increase, level increase for all, training bank and an increase in our travel up-load level and they would have done a great job.

Back to reality though, when you are dealing with a management hell bend on destroying the place, what can you expect?

Speaking of PI$$ POOR management, a vicious rumour is doing the rounds that management have rejected any negotiation in an attempt to get an EBA vote up. They are happy to spend the company's money to let it fail, further disengaging the workforce. Does anyone have any more details?

Bolty McBolt

18th Mar 2008, 10:37

an increase in our travel up-load level

PIOT Bord

Sorry to be a pedant mate but you will find your onload status same as always, Cat 50Y/**** unless you are on a long service or annual leave trip

If someone on here has access to Qube Res system you will see that many people travelling on staff travel from within the QF network have lower than 50Y/***** category which means they get on before you.

Even without this new UPGRADE status you quite often find as a LAME you have the best upgrade status but the lowest onload of the people listed for the flight.

I am not rubbishing what the Fed-ex have negociated for us, just putting a little perspective. :ok:

Dragger of Knuckles

18th Mar 2008, 11:47

I have put MY view forward on this forum several times now and I see many of us have the same thoughts which is great

To the exec, yes you could have done better, yes you could have got more, yes blah blah blah BUT since I don't hold a position on the exec, a VOLUNTARY ROLE I will not attack you personally

Instead of doing overtime on your days off you choose to fight OUR battles and for that I thank you, too many like to blame everyone except them 'p!ssweak' selves

Start Walking the Walk instead of the blah blah bullsh!t

By the way we AVV boys toldem to shove their efficiancies also we're in this together, Heavy Maint Rules

Konehead

19th Mar 2008, 00:13

FedSec
When did you last do a course? If it was in the past five years there may be a bond. Maybe you did your last one 10 years ago, you would then have 30 weeks training up your sleeve or 30 weeks pay if you want to leave. The proposal is retrospective. If and that is a very big "if" Qf accept the proposal, wait until you see the detail before you knock it.
Retrospective huh? Hmmm... worth a look, but as always the devil is in the detail, as we've found with this EBA.
As for the efforts you and the exec have put in on our behalf, thank you. The EBA is perhaps better than we've previously seen and certainly better than what we would have achieved under the previous exec. But back then, I didn't feel the way I do toward the current management regime. The last few years have seen a host of negative changes at their hands, including broken promises of being looked after in subsequent EBAs - the result being that I'm becoming one of these bitter Armies of One who, as IO has said, would vote NO to gold bars. I recognise that a negotiation is a process of compromise. But while my Morale Quotient is so low, my capacity for compromise is similarly low. I and many others have been pushed too far for us to accept anything but a great EBA outcome and the humiliation of the current management.

Even without this new UPGRADE status you quite often find as a LAME you have the best upgrade status but the lowest onload of the people listed for the flight.
I've raised this point in a previous post. Sad but true. As I said in that post, perhaps something to claim in the next EBA? Only 2.5 years to go...

Johnny V

19th Mar 2008, 01:51

Oh we haven't been spying, we've been convening special meetings in Base, SIT and SDT for the good company men to tell us what the feeling is on the floor and if the vote gets up in Syd the rest of you pathetic fools won't matter.
The feedback That the vote will get up by 50%+1

Never mind the union propaganda all the right people will get a grade out of this and we'll reward the DMMs, Maint Watch, IOC, PCT etc who've been spreading the good word for us via word of mouth and the telephone.

What idiots you are worrying about staff travel if you earnt more money you wouldn't need it

Truth is we have enough company puppets and self loving LAMEs to get this up, bye bye Exec :{

600ft-lb

19th Mar 2008, 08:01

If someone on here has access to Qube Res system you will see that many people travelling on staff travel from within the QF network have a 50Y/***** category which means they get on before you.

Even without this new UPGRADE status you quite often find as a LAME you have the best upgrade status but the lowest onload of the people listed for the flight.It's all in the staff travel policy manual

50
STAR Program
Group A - Current Staff

This priority is for employees travelling with or without their spouse (or Travelling Companion) and children on "Normal Rebate Travel".
51
STAR Program
Group A - Current Staff

This priority is for spouse (or Travelling Companion) and children of employees travelling without the employee on "Normal Rebate Travel".So if the employee is travelling you will always be N50<staff member YJ<economy and business class 15<lame upgrade priority 88<start date
so N50YJ1588 would be how your ticket is read. Onload priority is based off type of ticket N50<normal staff travel ticket, N42<High Priority Trip etc, then your start date if you are both N50's for example.

The date of joining (DOJ) is the date on which the employee was appointed to the Company adjusted by any unpaid leave days which do not constitute service days. It compliments the Travel and Upgrade priorities to determine onload, offload, upgrade or downgrade between 2 passengers with the same Travel priority.
simple :ok: