Merged: QANTAS/ALAEA EBA [Archive] - Page 16

Big M

17th Jul 2008, 12:44

Have been in metings, negotiations yesterday 0800-2230. Today 0800-1800. I had my breakfast at 2100 tonight after I put my kids that I hadn't seen for 3 days to bed.

C'mon guys, let's all just enjoy the weekend. Obviously something is in the wind and after 18 months a few more days won't be much in the grand scheme.
YES, we've been close before and had the rug pulled out from under us, so of course we're scepticle. (the sceptic in me thinks that FOG, M and his henchmen could be hatching a ploy to come to an agreement that sounds good verbally, which has us return to overtime to "clear the backlog" whilst they draw it up. This of course would go some way to buying them time to go down the same pathetic path and then change all the wording of the agreement when it comes to putting it in black and white). Might I just suggest that as there is no official announcement from either Q or the Association (and believe it or not - not all LAME's have access to, or even read "The prune") that everyone continue as per normal with no O/T and await the outcome of Monday's announcement.

Now would seem the time to holster our pistol's BUT of course keep them cocked and ready to fire if need be. We have banded together, with our Association officials as our figurehead and it would seem that something that is palatable to US, the membership(and guardians of Q's aircraft safety), is floating on the wind.

Why don't we all turn off the computer(hard I know), take it easy over the weekend (whether at work or not) and await the notice on Monday.

United we stand.

and remember............

"To undertake, supervise and certify for the safety of all who fly"

alpine57

17th Jul 2008, 13:16

Not sure why the leadership is so secretive. They should tell you guys that a 3% outcome was achieved.

unfortunately they need 4 days to find words to say it.

bad luck guys!

SpannerTwister

17th Jul 2008, 13:22

I live in hope that Qantas will deliver the goods this time.............

But I find it hard to believe that this is not just another delaying tatic from the company, on the other hand I also find it hard to believe that the FedSec doesn't know the depth of feeling we have, and would accept a second-rate offer.

The question I would like answered ASAP is have we "officially" withdrawn our PIA....I.E, if we want to do anything else do we have to do the whole voting thing again ?

We wait and see.

SpannerTwister

NAS1801

17th Jul 2008, 13:44

I think Flugbegleiter put it niceley once, forget the exact wording, but he basically said that even if the LAME's get 5%, they wil not be happy unless there is a big change in management.

1) Dixon. take an early retirement please.

2) Cox, thanks for assisting the LAME's with your bumbling, un-professional performance last year on today tonight but please, exit stage door left.

3) Murray Harris. You have done absolutely nothing to strengthen the relationship that QF management have with its staff. I hear they are building a railway in calcutta. Stick to what you know best. Maybe you will be appreceated.

4)To the rest of the yes men around the joint, do your staff respect you anymore? If not, move on. You will never be able to run an efficient operation unless they are on your side. If yo treated them with respect throughout the last 18 months, then you have no problem.

I honestly think it will take more than an attractive EBA deal to get thing back on track.

1me

17th Jul 2008, 16:02

Once bitten..twice shy!

FedSec et al, as a father I know what the sacrifice you have made means! I am truly thankful to you for the many frustrating hours of endless meetings and incessant drivel that you have had to endure to help us out.

Whether this new development becomes reality or is shown to be the latest stunt by a desperate company, only time will tell.

Regardless of the outcome...Thankyou. :D

Dr Itzfukt

17th Jul 2008, 19:36

Thanks for clarifying that Fed Sec. Much appreciated and yes we ALL do(well most of us) appreciate the efforts you and the rest of the exec have put in for us. Hopefully we see an end to this and can get back to semi normality. To those out there who have not supported the Union through this and are still members, unfortunately you will reep from this but you don't deserve it. Karma will come eventually. :):):):)

Slackjaw

17th Jul 2008, 19:54

I don't think SP would publish something like that here unless it has substance. Although an official anouncement hasn't been made till Monday SP wouldn't present us anything that he thinks would get voted down again.

Don't forget how we were before this. Bickering and fragmented. Fed Sec and Union HQ has done a tremendous job. He gave us the strength to say NO. He returned the power to the membership and made us realise our own worth. Yes the devil is in the details but have a look how strong we have become. SP delivered on his promise, the ALAEA will represent it's members and not itself, he united a fractionalised membership and gave the young guys an understanding of what we are really worth.

Yes the papers and the management spun the situation against us but we stood our ground. You know that no matter what outcome we have now we have won. We stood firm, with a united and overpowering voice we said NO. For SP to make that announcement means that GD MH etc have tried to break the unions back and FAILED.

What they have to do to re engage a disengaged workforce is plain for the membership to see, and is the consequence of being the LOSER in this fight. PLUS the board should punish them for the money they squandered in this and the damage they have caused to the brand for carrying on and escalating it.

FOG you have failed in breaking the workforce and have caused such a rift between management and the workforce that it will take years of fence mending to re engage.

We'll wait and see what in store on monday but I think i will we should thank SP and team for his outstanding resolve and commitment and his single handed turn around of the ALAEA.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Thanks Fed Sec

Sunfish

17th Jul 2008, 20:13

Quick check of Alpines posts reveals that he posts exclusively about industrial relations issues relating to the FAAA and ALAEA, and he admits to not being a LAME.

It will be interesting to see which people suddenly stop posting if and when this thing is settled.

Good luck on Monday ALAEA people, and well done to all of you and your executive. Please, please look very very carefully at the detail of the document, phrase by phrase, and check the definitions up front as well and if there is a word that appears out of place, or that wasn't there before, get it checked again by the lawyers.

I learned the hard way about the huge differences in legal meaning between what look like very simple phrases:

"discretion" and "unfettered discretion" (which doesn't require the other party to be reasonable at all)

"reasonable efforts" and "best efforts" (the latter meaning every effort short of bankruptcy)

Rak-a-san

17th Jul 2008, 23:14

Well done FED SEC

There is nothing official because there are only 24 hours in a day. Please all give us some space to breath. The post I put on pprune was not 0913 it was 0913z or 1813Local.

Have been in metings, negotiations yesterday 0800-2230. Today 0800-1800. I had my breakfast at 2100 tonight after I put my kids that I hadn't seen for 3 days to bed.

A notice could not be released from our office because it was after hours (simple one takes about 1.5 hours to prepare). With a notice comes 50 calls from the press, another 5 hours that I don't have, and makes no difference to the outcome of the EBA.

Everyone will see it from Monday when all the i's are crossed and the t's are dotted (because anyone can make mistakes).

I promise to party on Monday after that fat lady sings, I have waited this long I can wait another couple of days. Great job SP for the sacrifices you and the other union guys/girls have made for the benefit of the membership. It almost feels like xmas has come. I know that you guys would have only accepted an offer that you thought reasonable, however its made up, whether (wage rise + trinkets).

Hopefully after Monday we can all relax and have a drink, hopefully (REDHAWKE37) will even be happy :)

Cheers and Great job

Nasty Piece of Work

17th Jul 2008, 23:26

I have no idea whats in the deal
I do not know whether I will be satisfied or not
I know I hate the engineering management that run Qantas they are as stupid as they are vindictive
I know that I am now proud to be a member of the ALAEA
I know I will never forget the Scabs and would be Scabs especially former brothers,reps etc who too easily turned to the dark side

But most of all I will remember the volunteers, the men who received no income for doing the right thing the reps, the members and those on the exec who stood their ground took a hit and came back for more.
Thank you for representing me in the true spirit of the Australian worker
Come after one, come after all

SpannerTwister

17th Jul 2008, 23:32

....Hopefully after Monday we can all relax and have a drink, hopefully (REDHAWKE37) will even be happy :)

Maybe not so much .........................

Qantas to cut up to 1500 jobs (http://www.theage.com.au/national/qantas-to-cut-up-to-1500-jobs-20080717-3gxz.html)

LOOMING job cuts at Qantas are likely to target workers in middle management as the airline buckles under the pressure of rising global oil prices. The Age understands that chief executive Geoff Dixon has told staff that the airline plans to slash between 500 and 1500 jobs from its 36,000-strong workforce.
"He made it clear that the job cuts would come from middle management and that front-line staff shouldn't be too concerned," a source said.

What's a "middle manager" ?? Someone as low as a DMM, maybe an Ops Manager ? Maybe a MACS ? How high (MH or DC) is "middle" ??

Have a good weekend guys :ok::ok:

SpannerTwister

Short_Circuit

18th Jul 2008, 00:16

I suggest if you were a bully boy ops manager I would take a "Bex" and
have a lie-down and hit the Sundays papers Job Vacancies. :=

Don't bother looking in Aviation section you will be wasting your time. :p

Thanks SP et.al. for the hard yards, enjoy the weekend.:ok:

Keg

18th Jul 2008, 00:58

I don't have a source for this yet.....trying to track one down.

Qantas Reaches Agreement with LAMES
QANTAS REACHES AGREEMENT WITH ALAEA
SYDNEY, 18 July 2008: Qantas said today it had reached an in-principle agreement with the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) on a new four-year enterprise agreement for the airline’s 1,500 licensed engineers.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, welcomed the agreement which was reached last night. “Both parties approached yesterday’s negotiations in good faith and with a determination to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the airline, the union and its members,” Mr Dixon said.
“The terms of the agreement remain confidential until next week, but they are within the framework of our wages policy.
“Importantly, the union ceased its industrial action last night, which will be welcome news for our customers.
“It will, however, be several weeks until all of our aircraft are available to operate our normal schedule.
“As a result, some flight disruptions will continue in the short term and we will continue to cancel some flights as necessary, with customers accommodated on other services.”
The agreement will come into effect when it is voted on by Qantas’ 1,500 licensed engineers.

qantastrike

18th Jul 2008, 01:29

Just read this snippet as part of the article "qantas to axe 1500 jobs" on ninemsn. I think you'll find that they sourced it from aap. So as reliable media outlets go they are probably the top. Bring on monday...... One msg for o/t already and counting......DIRKA.:ugh:

redhawk37

18th Jul 2008, 01:33

its really great to see its finally over but lets wait n see if its been worth it, and I dont mean Monday!

Galley Raider

18th Jul 2008, 01:39

Tut tut, RH37. Dont be a sore LOSER!!

QF MAINT OUTSOURCED

18th Jul 2008, 01:57

looks like 3% is still there,not good

SpannerTwister

18th Jul 2008, 02:27

its really great to see its finally over but lets wait n see if its been worth it, and I dont mean Monday!

Umm.....Did the members already vote to accept the "package", if so I must of misplaced my ballot paper ?

Did the fat lady sing ?

It's not over until it's over .............

While I know the ALAEA executive have been working their rings off over this, and I also believe the executive know what we want, and I seriously doubt that they would make the mistake again of indicating to the company that we would accept a "less then 5% offer", the facts remain that we, the members, have yet to see THE PROPOSAL in writing.

Does anyone here believe that the company has not in the past engaged in "stalling" tactics, that they have not changed the document between "agreement" and "presentation", does anyone here fully trust all of the management ?

By Monday evening when we have all seen the proposal, then, and only then, can one even begin to say "it's over".

But this is my personal opinion........If it gives the Kones something without the same for the Blackhanders, if it gives the Line guys something without the same for the Dockies, if it gives the grades 9 - 13 something without giving the 3 - 8's the same thing, if it gives the domestic Brothers something without giving the international Brothers the same........Well as they say, "It's gonna crash and burn".

As I've said before, to their great chagrin, they've managed to unite us like never before.......

Viva la Engineers !!!

SpannerTwister

check1-2

18th Jul 2008, 02:31

SYDNEY, July 18 (Reuters) - Australia's biggest airline, Qantas Airways Ltd (QAN.AX: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=QAN.AX), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=QAN.AX), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=QAN.AX), Stock Buzz (http://reuters.socialpicks.com/stock/r/QAN)) has reached an in-principle agreement with striking engineers, Qantas said in a statement on Friday. The terms of the agreement would remain confidential until next week but were within the framework of Qantas' wages policy, the statement said.

"...but were within the framework of Qantas' wages policy..."

smells of 3%

SpannerTwister

18th Jul 2008, 02:31

Bloomberg reports....

Engineer Agreement
Earlier, Qantas said it had reached a new four-year labor agreement with its engineers, ending a long-running dispute that had forced the airline to cancel some flights and delay others.

News.com.au reports....

THE 1500 jobs to be cut by Qantas will occur in Australia and abroad.
Arizona and London
Call centres will be shut with the loss of 99 jobs. Call centre activity to be concentrated in Australia and New Zealand.
Jetstar
A Jetstar cabin crew base in Adelaide will be shut down in August and the Jetstar recruitment program will also be suspended until the end of the year.
Plane fleet
The carrier plans to retire up to 10 per cent of its fleet of 228-planes.
Management
More than 20 per cent of Qantas management and head office support jobs will be slashed.

SpannerTwister

Torqueman

18th Jul 2008, 02:33

Sorry for being such a sceptic but if GD makes an announcment that it's withing their current wages policy, then that must mean 3%.

As for a deal like the pilots have taken linked to management incentives and the like. Well I'm a sceptic there too. It's already been made clear that the days of massive bonuses to Execs are over. You just have to look at the penny pinching , money hungry pupets it produces.

Taking 3% with things like 1% super and the like are not adding to real wage growth which is what is needed here. Engineers have fallen way behind over the years and it shows by the inability to attract the right people to the job now. Investing in people should be just as important as investing in the other assets like aircraft and facilities. The company needs to make that a priority.

Things that are indexed to performance of the airline can be easily manipulated by the bean counters and and end up being of no real benefit at all.

REAL WAGE GROWTH. I will be looking forward to 5% on monday. No less. Don't disappoint SP.

As for the doomsday speeches that are going on by GD. Go ahead make your staff cuts. I think engineers have demonstrated that by not working excesive hours that they are already well understaffed and in short supply. Pilots are the same. I think they have already cut their staff by stealth over the years with their demorilising campaign that GD and his cronies have run.

As for fuel prices. Big deal. Put the fairs up. Everyone has the same problem it's a level playing field. Everyone in the transport industry has the same problem. People expect to pay more to drive to the airport, why shouldn't they pay more when they get on the plane.

Why are the staff expected to foot the bill for the passengers higher fuel cost?

So I'll be eagerly anticipating Monday. But I have to tell you I have my doubts that we've been sold a dud.

GD will be gone soon, with him goes the money that should have gone to the hard working staff of the airline. That will never be forgotten. To now add performance incentives when they know they won't happen, what a slap in the face.

I think the board of Qantas should be doing the rounds of the grass roots levels to see just how the years of GD management has gutted this great airline.

domo

18th Jul 2008, 02:54

QANTAS ANNOUNCES JOB AND CAPACITY CUTS

SYDNEY, 18 July 2008: The Qantas Group said today it would cut 1,500 jobs worldwide
in response to the sustained high oil prices and changing economic conditions.
The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas Airways Limited, Mr Geoff Dixon, said that in
addition to the job cuts, Qantas would not implement its budgeted growth in flying in the
2008/09 financial year and would cancel plans to hire a further 1,200 people for that
growth.
Mr Dixon said every effort would be made to achieve the job cuts through voluntary
redundancy, early retirements, leave without pay, an accelerated leave program and
converting positions from full-time to part-time.
“However, some compulsory redundancies will be necessary, which we regret.
“The jobs to be cut will be principally concentrated in non-operational areas, although
operational positions will also go.”
“Over 20 per cent of our management and head office support jobs will be cut,” he said.
“The redundancy program will be completed by December.”
Mr Dixon said the aviation industry was facing a major crisis throughout the world and
Qantas needed to act decisively to ensure its future.
“Acting now, on top of the measures already taken, will protect our competitive position,
protect the great majority of over 36,000 jobs and enable us to grow profitably when
conditions improve.
Mr Dixon said as a result of today’s decision, the Qantas group would:

- maintain a recruitment and executive pay freeze for the foreseeable future;

- reduce forecast capacity growth in 2008/09 from eight per cent to nil growth;

-retire up to 22 older aircraft from its fleet of 228 (including announcements previously
made);

- close its long-running call centres in Tucson, Arizona and London at a cost of 99 jobs,
and concentrate all its call centre activity in Australia and New Zealand;

- suspend Jetstar’s recruitment program until the end of the year, including its recruitment
of pilots under the 457 visa program; and

- close Jetstar’s cabin crew and pilot base in Adelaide by the end of August, with Jetstar’s
37 return weekly Adelaide flights to remain and be serviced by aircraft and staff based
in Darwin and Sydney.
Mr Dixon said Qantas would also:

- proceed with its major fleet re-equipment program of new and more fuel efficient aircraft
such as the A380 and B787; and

- proceed with its customer-focused product and service initiatives such as domestic
Business class lounges, terminal facilities and opening the new Qantas Customer
Service Centre of Excellence.
He said Qantas was very conscious of the important role it played in business and tourism
throughout metropolitan and regional Australia.
“This was uppermost in our mind when reviewing all aspects of our operations in recent
weeks and, as a result, the latest schedule changes mostly involve a reduction of capacity
on some routes and not the wholesale elimination of routes.
“Also we need to keep developing new opportunities and we will, for example, proceed
with opening up already announced new direct services between Sydney and Buenos
Aires in November.”
Mr Dixon said Qantas had successfully responded, with the valuable support of its people
and its customers, to many crises since privatisation in 1995.
“We are confident of doing the same again, particularly now that we have reached an in
principle agreement with the union representing our engineers, the ALAEA. This should
mean a quick cessation to the difficulties our customers have experienced over the past
ten weeks.”
Mr Dixon said the agreement, and the one reached on Wednesday with AIPA, the union
representing 1,800 pilots, provided greater flexibility for Qantas and its pilots and its

might have to post another thread, who going to put there hand up,
not me this time,

Keg

18th Jul 2008, 02:54

Geoff also made an announcement that the pilots made an agreement within the company's framework but some crew will end up with more than 3%. Sometimes it's good to let Geoff appear to have his win if you guys also get a win. Many ways to skin this particular cat.

Negative Feedback

18th Jul 2008, 03:05

base pay + (base pay x 3%) + a + b + c = x
base pay + (base pay x 5%) = x
base pay + (base pay x 3%) = x - a + b + c
base pay = x - (base pay x 3%) - a - b - c

Doesn't matter how you work it out, as long as x = a real increased amount and the majority of LAMEs benefit, especially lower grades.

I can live with the wage part, how I can do my job better is another matter and I don't think boots up managers' quoits is a valid EBA claim.

domo

18th Jul 2008, 03:12

I voted to let the union take us to war.
I will also accept their peace.
If the union endorses the deal I will vote YES
they know the full facts and if they are happy so am I

Red Baron

18th Jul 2008, 03:25

I bet there will be a clause in your 'new' in principle agreement that says something about dropping all or any pending legal proceedings during your campain. :*

Wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them! :suspect:

Maintain the rage, until Monday. ;)

delta 4

18th Jul 2008, 04:09

Dont let us forget, the only way we say the last offering was with the union agreement in principle with QF management.

So far not much different this time..........except for the PIA.

Let's wait and see what is on the table and whether it is clear cut and NOT ambigous.

I wont give my vote so easily, I dont trust QF.

D4

Stagger Lee

18th Jul 2008, 04:09

While I reserve the right to reject any agreement that falls short of 5% across the board I just want to say thank you for all the hard work so far to all the union officials.

Also can I give a big slap on the back to all the LAME's across Qantas who have had the moral fortitude to stick together for a just cause, I know some of you have been under intense direct personal pressure from some so called managers and maybe financial pressure from your private circumstances, may you sleep well at night knowing that you have done the right thing.

:D :D :ok:

Pegasus747

18th Jul 2008, 04:49

SYDNEY, 18 July 2008: Qantas said today it had reached an in-principle agreement with the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association (ALAEA) on a new four-year enterprise agreement for the airline’s 1,500 licensed engineers.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, welcomed the agreement which was reached last night.

“Both parties approached yesterday’s negotiations in good faith and with a determination to reach an agreement that was acceptable to the airline, the union and its members,” Mr Dixon said.

“The terms of the agreement remain confidential until next week, but they are within the framework of our wages policy.

“Importantly, the union ceased its industrial action last night, which will be welcome news for our customers.

“It will, however, be several weeks until all of our aircraft are available to operate our normal schedule.

“As a result, some flight disruptions will continue in the short term and we will continue to cancel some flights as necessary, with customers accommodated on other services.”

The agreement will come into effect when it is voted on by Qantas’ 1,500 licensed engineers.

alpine57

18th Jul 2008, 05:01

"The terms of the agreement remain confidential until next week, but they are within the framework of our wages policy." - Geoff Dixon

I posted a couple of days ago, just a factual post, which a few laughed about.

I indicated a 3% per annum deal would occur, and it has. I'm not sure why so many in here are so confused.

No union was going to get more than 3%, unfortunately, your expectations were raised. That's why you are not getting any details until monday.

All of us dserve more than 3%, but unfortunately, this was never going to happen.

Toolpants

18th Jul 2008, 05:43

Thanks for all the hard work ALAEA guys.

I would like to thank management for showing me the error of my ways.

Since I stopped doing OT I found out I actually like my wife, kids and friends and enjoyed spending my days off with them.

So weather PIA is “on” or “off” will make no difference to me now.
I will never be return to the OT merry-go-round. I will be enjoying my life away from QF on my days off.

Lets face it, the more OT you do = the more money you get = the more money you spend.
You always adjust your spending habits to what you earn.
The only difference OT makes is how much time you spend away from family and friends.

Thanks again to all.

kotoyebe

18th Jul 2008, 05:57

It looks plain to see that it's going to be 3%:ugh:

What happens in a couple of years when the next lot of QF EBAs are due and the new head honcho, PG, says that the new "board approved wages framework is now 1.5%" You don't think it's possible?:{

Maybe Kev07's new IR system will help us:confused:

SpannerTwister

18th Jul 2008, 06:05

........I know that you guys [Ed..SP and co] would have only accepted an offer that you thought reasonable, however its made up, whether (wage rise + trinkets).

To all you doom-sayers out there, did you read this post ?

I'm pretty positive we'll only be getting a "headline" 3% raise too, but do I care ? Not if, as R-A-S says, we get 3% + 2% worth of pretty shiny baubles :ok:

Let's at least give SP the benefit of the doubt over the weekend and see what Monday brings :D:D

Any QE Managers postings between now and Monday can safely be ignored, they're under pressure this weekend :eek: !!

What 20% of mid-level managers are going ? Want to play "Make-A-Wish" :E ?

SpannerTwister

chksatis

18th Jul 2008, 06:07

so does this mean qf has notified our client customers that we will be handling them again on the line?

Short_Circuit

18th Jul 2008, 06:09

It looks plain to see that it's going to be 3%:ugh:

Yeah but what if it is 3% of GDs wage?! :}

lordofthewings

18th Jul 2008, 07:00

Listen too you all, you still dont know what the offer is and your giving each other high fives.F.ck the 3% plus shiny bits, should be 5% with no exceptions..Going to get fu..ed over again..:=:D

One Eye Redundant

18th Jul 2008, 07:08

If we all get 3% each year with 2% shiny baubles, our base pay rate will still be 8% behind after the 4 year agreement.

My thanks to the exec for all their hard work, but I want to look to the long term, and anything less than 5% pa will not cut it.

As for goodwill towards the company, nothing short of a full apology from all the management involved and maybe a few forced resignations will bring that back.

Until Monday MAINTAIN THE RAGE.

pablo m

18th Jul 2008, 07:08

Quote - "PIA Lifted, in-principle agreement -- ha!"
hhhhmmmmm............... as the saying goes "I will be out of the office until 0600 Monday", you won't be able to contact me, sorry about that Chief.
I apologise for my cynicism, 18 months takes a long time to heal.:ugh:
See ya, I'm going bush, back soon.:ok:

SpannerTwister

18th Jul 2008, 07:09

Listen too you all, you still dont know what the offer is and your giving each other high fives.F.ck the 3% plus shiny bits, should be 5% with no exceptions..Going to get fu..ed over again..:=:D

And the naysayers on the other side.

If you're on $100K, does it really matter if you get 5% or 3% + 1% "productivity increase" + 1% "special circumstances" increase ?

If we get "fu..ed over again" it'll only be OUR OWN FAULT for voting yes.

My reading of the membership is that we're not going to bend over and take it again :D!!!

Come Monday, either SP will be a hero, or the company will really find out what 1500 pi:mad:ed off engineers are like to deal with :} !!!

Let's wait 'till then !!

SpannerTwister

Redstone

18th Jul 2008, 07:18

What 20% of mid-level managers are going ? Want to play "Make-A-Wish" ?

now theres an interesting thought......

LAME2

18th Jul 2008, 07:30

from 15MAY2008. (sorry cannot seem to quote)

Relax fellas. The intent of the PIA was to bring Management to the negotiating table. If this happens on day 1, so much the better. SP knows the target value of the deal. Dixon has made some very inflamatory remarks in the press over the last week....... Who knows and who cares as long as we get an acceptable deal......... Our overtime bans alone would hurt the company significantly. Life style changes are a personal issue for many. Lets do our job to the best of our ability and act in a professional manner at all times. Let SP and Sharon do theirs and let our professionalism support their efforts. Until an agreement in principle is signed, our PIA will remain in force and the sole purpose of the PIA is to achieve a reasonable deal, not to bloody noses or to remove management.

Stay cool. Stay calm. Support your executive and your peers desires for a better deal.

Guys, relax. Have faith that Steve P and his committee members are doing their best for all of us. I personally would not be able to put up with what they have the last 2 years. For their efforts in that alone I am greatful. Await their notice setting out the details and do not exhibit any sour grapes if you do not get what you expected or indeed what some of us have demanded in this forum. A good deal for all was always going to be the objective of the union. If it means 3% plus double trinkets or a deal made up in some other way then so be it. Be patient and wait for the details. They have been a long time coming and we should respect the efforts of the committee by exhibiting some control over our individual emotions. Give nothing to the company spys who read this forum.

Longbow25

18th Jul 2008, 07:31

Maybe some newly appointed "Ops Managers" might be looking for work with some luck

Short_Circuit

18th Jul 2008, 07:31

3000 jobs at Qantas put at risk
By Phillip Hudson
June 12, 2005
The Sun-Herald

Qantas has told the Federal Government that up to 3000 jobs could be at risk and some aircraft maintenance moved overseas if it suffered a major hit to its profitability such as extra competition on the Pacific route to the US.

Qantas chairman Margaret Jackson and chief executive Geoff Dixon have warned the Government the airline is facing long-term pressures, particularly aggressive competition from Emirates Airlines. A boost for Singapore Airlines could wipe as much as $50 million off profits and "hasten" job losses. One source said Qantas left no doubt it would blame the Government.
or engineers or pilots or cabin crew anyone except management.

And yet Qantas makes record profits year after year.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...........

1746

18th Jul 2008, 07:37

QANTAS has done a wonderful thing!
Needless to say they where greatly assisted by the Special Performance team. The deed which has finally been achieved is unity!
Unity of all QF LAMEs!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D
Never before has the unity and morale been more evident!!!!!
No matter what the outcome of Monday's detail reveals we must ensure that the unity and morale only grow!!!
P.S. I must admit that I am sceptical and unfortunately feel that it will be a long, long time, if ever, before this most recent betrayal by QANTAS is forgotten!!!

max1

18th Jul 2008, 07:47

I hope it all works out the way you want ginger-beers.
Well done for taking a stand.

crow17

18th Jul 2008, 07:50

Union notice just out. Is interesting to hear that our ot bans did have them by the short and curlies, alternate arrangements couldn't cover our lack of ot manhours.
Still not sure what to make of it all. Monday will tell all.
Once again, just a note of appreciation for the whole exec of the ALAEA for their work over the last 2 years. Our last exec election was the right choice.:ok:

kotoyebe

18th Jul 2008, 08:18

Right on cue...Scrotum face signs up in-pinciple agreements with the pilots and engineers unions, and the oil price falls 17%.

Stick to your guns, guys. Don't let the momentum of an imminent resolution take your eyes and unity off the real and deserved outcome. You have been here before. Good luck.

Millet Fanger

18th Jul 2008, 08:22

Just saw a preview, Channel 7's Today Tonight is doing a special feature on Qantas - it's relationship with the unions and staff cuts.

kotoyebe

18th Jul 2008, 08:39

It wasn't a great piece, trying to compare Qantas and Tiger, but jeez it was good seeing DC squirm again!

Short_Circuit

18th Jul 2008, 08:52

It wasn't a great piece, trying to compare Qantas and Tiger,

But isn't that Qantas' ultimate aim to be a high ticket price, Low Cost Carrier?

Rip the punters off and give them nothing.

The shareholder is God, remember.:oh:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yeah, good to see DC's @rse pucker again.

Headcone

18th Jul 2008, 08:57

Just saw a news article that intimated that Qantas had reached agreements with both the pilots and the engineers.

Any true to this?

Toolpants

18th Jul 2008, 09:51

"He made it clear that the job cuts would come from middle management and that front-line staff shouldn't be too concerned," a source said.

I think anyone in management on those 2 year contracts are in the firing line. No VR payments, just get rid of them for free. Cheap, cheap. No extra flight delays either.

LAME’s, mmm very expensive to get rid of plus our OT bans alone were enough to bring the on time performance to the ground.

Too bad really, I thing there are a lot of lame’s keen for a package. There are still those of us that did not get VR from the last round.

acslame

18th Jul 2008, 10:13

I am sharpening up the stick and setting it up in the
front yard so when they deliver M's head I will
have somewhere ready to put it.
Middle management empire building and
ass covering bull**** (sorry tailwheel) has gone
a real long way towards the downfall of QF.
Maybe i should sharpen another, if I got
DC's head as well it could make a great
garden feature.
Now if they were both still alive and talking
then I would have the worlds first self
fertilizing garden!!!

Maintain the Rage!!

PS
To SP and the boys
When this is all over feel free to come over to my
place and have a beer in my new garden.

TX for all your work

Rak-a-san

18th Jul 2008, 10:17

Please please, can I pick some of the managers that should go.

There are a couple of those ex-Ansett managers that have wriggled their way into QE. They tried their stuff in another life and failed, tried it again in this life and still failed. :=

Then, there are also a couple that seem to come back as a consultant for what ever reason, telling eveyone how to work certain rosters that will save the company millions only to be circumvented anyway, costing the QF loads and loads. :ugh: ( whoops, also ex-Ansett)

Then, we have the certain arrogant manager that discrimnates against people from a western continent and gets away with it, it seems that the discrimination policy doesn't hold creedance. :yuk:

There must be a fall guy from all of this? An industrial dispute which has cost the company squillions, complete trashing of a world famous brand, distrust generated (remembered n never forgotten) of the srtike breakers and forceful managers.

SSSShhhh...... Dont tell anyone I would have accepted 2% if the managers that are the ego-fed non-performers got the bullet (there is more than 1 of them). Oh well looks like most of them are bullet-proof, so I will have to accept what ever the exec worked hard to gain for us all, because utopia is only a fantasy that cant be reached.

Roll on Monday, well done everyone for holding it together, lets give the exec a go, wait n see how the figures stack up.

only 3 sleeps to go :D

division1

18th Jul 2008, 10:54

I can't believe the reception i recieved at the
newsagents, iga and bottleshop on the way home from work.
Qantas have shot themselves in the foot with their media.
The average australian now seems to despise the
Qantas management more than the staff.:{

Short_Circuit

18th Jul 2008, 11:18

Just bring on the VR, there are hundreds of LAME's just waiting to take it.

Trouble is Qantas can't let all of us go.

Reality is with all of us working, but no overtime, the airline has CRASHED!

Ask any passenger that has flown with Qantas over the last 6 months. It is a very poor show.

GD, DC & Engineering Upper & Lower Management have a very big price to pay, but they won't......

Take five

18th Jul 2008, 11:22

If It's 3% Vote NO

I have been informed that the approval by our union just got over the line marginally.

We have been through this crap before and there are a lot of people out there that are not impressed one bit.
Nothing has changed, so lets put it to an vote so that the company knows that we are really pissed off and serious about this, and then apply AGAIN for PIA

The ALAEA has tried it's best for us and I feel it has not succeeded with our cause and our directions.
They have had there hands tied at every turn and the company have just railroaded them again.

When GD says that it is within the company wage guidelines, that to me means 3%.

Even if you get a grade on top of that it means that you will reach stagnation at quota levels that are topped out.

Don't fall for the bu77sh1t.

August 16th means another years of service point that you may not be able to use.

An Agreement In Principle means absolutely nothing until we vote on it.

And also until the pilots vote on their Agreement In Principle

Stay strong and don't fall for the spin.

ALAEA Fed Sec

18th Jul 2008, 11:45

You must know something that i don't know. Come and do my job mate. get a better deal and I will resign.

1746

18th Jul 2008, 11:56

Steve, go and have some family time knowing the troops trust you!

You and all the Bexley boys and girls deserve it!

As for the doubters.. how about waiting and seeing rather than speculating???

ALAEA Fed Sec

18th Jul 2008, 12:04

Happy to put in when I can. One thing that I have noted in the last six months having seen the words and actions of individuals and what is real and what is not -

The men have now been sorted out from the boys and the results have been extremely surprising.

Back the footy.

cheers

FULLY SICK DICK

18th Jul 2008, 12:30

To everyone involved,

Well done guys, look forward to the news on Mon

Hopefully everything will fall into place in due course.

Fully hectic effort !!!!!
:ok:

emal140

18th Jul 2008, 13:17

If you all check the latest press releases from QF they do differ, albeit insignificantly.
The AIPA EBA ” This is a significant agreement that locks in the company's 3 per cent per annum wages policy for a further five years, until 2013”. The ALEA EBA “terms of the agreement remain confidential until next week, but they are within the framework of our wages policy.”. I know they are only words but think of this. As an AME/LAME you work and certify within QF policy, however you also work and certify within the ‘framework’ of the CASA regulations. As I said, they are only words but can mean different things. What we do need to do is read what we are given and digest. I would assume that the reason the dreaded “3%’” wasn’t mentioned was for good reason, further industrial action by the ALAEA members.

On Monday, put our present situation in perspective. You won’t get managers heads on a platter or stick (however much people desire that). You won’t see much at all looking at it from within, if blinded by desire. What we asked for was a fair pay increase for a fair days work. We can’t afford to complicate the issue with other wants. Keep in mind that recent managers have wanted to devalue the AME/LAME license. By getting some people to sell their souls for 200k/annum and putting them through a ‘few weeks’ schooling, they hoped to make our license a superfluous piece of paper. Keep in mind that they were playing pawns with the people who pay, not only our wages, but those that manage above us. However through resilience and sheer determinedness we have now got to this point, not without suffering though. We owe our thanks to all the executive and the Bexley staff, however without the understanding of everyone (passengers, pilots, flight attendants, ground staff, all….) we would not be here now. It would seem that everyone else was listening except those of the intelligent space.

On Monday read what is presented and digest. We have been at the table with an in-principle agreement before. That was voted down, and so be it if it happens again Monday. If it gets voted down it will be because it doesn’t represent what we have taken the PIA for. However, think of this. What we have achieved? I believe it is thus. The management had to stop taking us for granted. Many of you have used the word respect before, but remember respect is a two way street. Maybe it is just me, but what I seem to be reading is that after all the bluff and bluster by QF, THEY had to come to us to resolve the issue, not us to them, That in itself is worth more to me than gold bullion. Don’t ‘Maintain the Rage until Monday’. Certainly ‘Maintain the Rage.. with respect’. What we need to do is MAINTAIN THE RESOLVE that got us to this point. RAGE is temporary, RESOLVE is permanent.

Long live the LAME…

chanel1234

18th Jul 2008, 15:22

You rabble do not deserve to have a job

Can you please read the last post by Division1. ( idiot who amazes)

I really have never seen a person that can better represent ALAEA idiots

The ombudsman is still in play

Mandearo and his friends are up sh!t creek, WHO ARE HIS FRIENDS?

Any normal person reading the posts after the announcement can deduce that QF engineers are idiots

LAME2

18th Jul 2008, 23:14

Quote Emal140;
On Monday read what is presented and digest. We have been at the table with an in-principle agreement before. That was voted down, and so be it if it happens again Monday. If it gets voted down it will be because it doesn’t represent what we have taken the PIA for. However, think of this. What we have achieved? I believe it is thus. The management had to stop taking us for granted. Many of you have used the word respect before, but remember respect is a two way street. Maybe it is just me, but what I seem to be reading is that after all the bluff and bluster by QF, THEY had to come to us to resolve the issue, not us to them, That in itself is worth more to me than gold bullion. Don’t ‘Maintain the Rage until Monday’. Certainly ‘Maintain the Rage.. with respect’. What we need to do is MAINTAIN THE RESOLVE that got us to this point. RAGE is temporary, RESOLVE is permanent.

Couldn't agree more Emal. Be patient and wait till Monday. Look for a good deal and if its there, vote it up, otherwise vote accordingly. Are we all to go back to doing what we were before this PIA, filling holes in systems and making things work with the risk of punishment when things didn't? I believe "Maintaining the Resolve" will become a part of every QF LAMEs toolbox well into the future. We do not want to go through this again at EBA9. We want the Managers to remember our contribution well into the future, not just until the EBA8 vote.

dr skydrol

19th Jul 2008, 00:25

Thanks a big one to our Fed Exec for all your hard work.
From the beginning most of us would have accepted 3% plus a grade increase or 3% plus a big bonus. We shouldn't be as hung up on the number 5 just as the company is hung up about the number 3. The difference between 5% and 3% is not much. 5% was just the figure so we could obtain PIA. Everytime we stop for 4 hours thats 0.5 % we give back to the company. Will it be worth it to fight on to achieve a number.
If the offer is 3 plus something nice for all of us lets take it. I think we would have aceived our goal and this to get something more than the "3% and nothing else take it or leave it" offer. We have seen how the company is willing to commit suicide to hold their 3% lets not kill ourselves by trying to acheive a number. Some of us still want to work here after this is settled. I have supported our Exec from the beginning and I will support their decision now. They have had this under control from day 1 and if they think its a fair offer we should support that. They are in the best position to decide what they think is best.
Again thanks to our leaders you have done us proud.And to 99% of my fellow members.The proudest years of ALAEA. I reckon any leftover money in the fighting fund should go to them so they can take their families out to dinner or on holidays as a gift of thanks from the members.

Bulgaria

19th Jul 2008, 00:29

What kind of union makes an announcement as important as this via an internet forum????? Thought the union's website or an urgent email to members might be the way to go??????

Grassmere Avenue

19th Jul 2008, 00:35

Why would people rush back to o/t?
Hopefully the o/t sluts have found there is a life outside QF.
But i suspect they rush in headlong, now there is no PIA..
The problem is, they are usually the same people who bitch and moan about no getting type training etc.
Through their excessive o/t they merely fill large holes that are present due to mis management.
Others are right, we have been here before.
How quickly we forget.
The devil is in the details.
Lets wait and see what the devil is.......:}

Dockie

19th Jul 2008, 01:42

Take Five - "I Hope We are Not Being Hoodwinked Again"

You strike me as a person who would join a club and and then spend all their time complaining. I think SP and the boys have done a fantastic job and should be applauded and not ridiculed.

lordofthewings

19th Jul 2008, 02:32

Might as well of bent over 18 months ago. If you accept 3% you have proven one thing, THAT YOU REALLY ARE WEAK AS PI>S...:D

sumpdrain

19th Jul 2008, 02:59

I hope that when all the dust is settled that the new ops managers are remembered for the ther lack of moral fibre in appying for a job that was basically set up as to break the dispute.It would be a shame if they were the first of the shedding of management types.

thosecotos

19th Jul 2008, 06:39

I reckon any leftover money in the fighting fund should go to them so they can take their families out to dinner or on holidays as a gift of thanks from the members

Maybe some of that money should also be spent looking after the largely forgotten non Qantas members who have been quietly propping up your fight.

Dr Itzfukt

19th Jul 2008, 06:55

So when do EBA 9 negotiations start? :E:E:E:E

nut turner

19th Jul 2008, 08:56

The association has done a good job but if anyone thinks that we are getting more than 3% their kidding themselves. The company has already said that it is within their wages policy, so lets hope their are some sweetners there.

mister hilter

19th Jul 2008, 08:58

Maybe some of that money should also be spent looking after the largely forgotten non Qantas members who have been quietly propping up your fight.

thosecotos, Would you care to expand this comment? Sorry I'm a bit tired and maybe the logic is staring me in the face, but could you please humour me just this once?

Ngineer

19th Jul 2008, 09:11

Effective immediately all industrial action will stop and LAME’s should resume work in accordance with normal practice.

Rumour from a reliable source is that ACS lames are still being harrassed by a HR manager and an SIO/SDO manager to stay back on OT. (even after Thursdays announcement). Interviews with notes being taken, the whole shebang. And I thought this mess was over! No more goodwill from me.

The last few months have been a tremendous learning curve, seeing the true colours of our managers. Maintain the rage.

Take five

19th Jul 2008, 09:13

Steve (and the rest of the negotiating committee),
I sincerely apologize for my outburst yesterday.
I would not be in your shoes for all the tea in China.
You have stood up to the QF machine with amazing vigour and enthusiasm.
I, and every other member of this Association are feeling very proud of you and our negotiators.

BUT, you must realise, that to get into a position on a Friday close of business where our PIA is cancelled with no details of outcome is extremely frustrating for members.

You know how the grapevine works within Qantas.
Rumours are rife at the moment.
The PIA should have stayed on until a document was produced which allowed our members to decide if we should vote one way or the other.

I truly believe that the issue should have gone to a vote after the first report back meetings.
GD would then, not have been able to slag you and the executive for reneging on a (supposed) “Agreement in Principle.”
Hindsight is such a wonderful thing, is it not.

At least this time, we will be able to respond to the powers that be, that we are totally over being pushed from pillar to post, and if the deal is not acceptable they will have some knowledge of what 51% of the members will accept.

Is that not what their game is about.

All of us are extremely concerned that QF have used stalling tactics on us AGAIN.

The fact is, that if this does not get up, we will have to reapply for PIA AGAIN.

If we do, I hope that escalation comes quickly and puts this business to rest.

Listening to GD’s comments about how the "Agreements In Principle" with the Pilots and LAMES are virtually sealed, and over with, just makes me want to put my fingers down my throat and send it to him OCS.

We are all hoping for a good outcome on Monday and I just hope that the inability to use our years of service points has been addressed.

My apologies again.

propnut

19th Jul 2008, 09:16

I have just gotten hold of an old Blue Book from the days of T.A.A. and I read with fascination the Foreword and would like to share it with you...........and hopefully the people at the top of the tree:

TAA

DATE: 18/10/60 PAGE: 1 of 1
GENERAL - VOLUME 1

F O R E W O R D

1.The Maintenance of Aircraft is a task calling for the highest standards of skill and integrity on the part of those whose responsibility it is to maintain them and it is on the skill and integrity of our maintenance that we build our reputation as an Airline.
2.Whatever the job may be, no matter how trivial, it must be given our undivided attention; no job should be cleared unless we are absolutely satisfied that the standard is of the highest, a few more minutes or seconds in making certain may mean the difference between a serviceable or unserviceable aircraft.
3.The most critical period, the period during which we are under stress, passengers waiting, scheduled departure time past, this is the time when our judgment could be impaired, and it is the time when the utmost vigilance is necessary to prevent an error of judgment and to be certain that the job is right.
4.We have built for ourselves a reputation second to none for efficient, safe transport; we can only retain that reputation if we exercise constant vigilance in our approach to the various tasks we are called upon to perform from time to time and we must –
BE PROUD - ONLY OF THE BEST.

Might be nearly 50 years old, but still rings true and it's what the travelling public would want to hear.

Clipped

19th Jul 2008, 11:53

Gents, sitting by the river bank .. waiting patiently .. nothing floating by, yet.

domo

19th Jul 2008, 12:10

Gents, sitting by the river bank .. waiting patiently .. nothing floating by, yet.

too many people sitting on the riverbank
need soldiers to go up stream and do some dirty work

I believe the team will have got us the best result posible, roll on monday

Galley Raider

19th Jul 2008, 12:12

Gents, sitting by the river bank .. waiting patiently .. nothing floating by, yet.

Watch carefully as some of them are very low. So low they will probably scrape along the bottom rather than float.

ampclamp

19th Jul 2008, 12:52

To Steve and the negotiating team, a huge thankyou for the amazing efforts you have put in over an extended period.
A major part of the success in runnning a tight, smart campaign is fast and effective communications and to that end you have been fantastic.
Hardly put a foot wrong.

I wont comment on what numbers may or not be in the offer but given you guys have agreed to put it to us must mean its close to being on the money.

As long as its close to that number and its fair for all not the usual divide and conquer bulldust it may get over the line.A lot of bad blood out there lads.

I look fwd to Monday or when the fineprint is forensically examined.
I trust you guys to have done the right thing and made it abundantly clear to these clowns that IF they dick us around again there will be no holding back.

My gut feeling is the guys would rather shut the airline down than fold for these awful people.

A special thanks to those "managers' for bringing us together like I never thought I'd see and exposing the scum amongst us.Outstanding effort ,bravo! :ok:

Set back labour relations 30 years , galvanised the work force, lost tens millions of dollars,sullied the Qantas brand like nobody else has managed, alienated your otherwise loyal staff , shafted and told porkies to thousands of loyal passengers.

Sounds dumb making such a comment, but pushing a normally timid animal into a corner and prodding it with a big stick can produce a nasty, snarling creature with more spine and fight than you could imagine.

ElPerro

19th Jul 2008, 13:05

What happened to the posts of "It better be 5% nothing less".

Way to hit them with a wet lettuce guys! Destroying families holiday's, costing the economy millions...

Quite amusing watching the defeated tell themselves they did well.

Y'all got whipped. Y'all know it. If you want confirmation then don't bother responding to me, just look back about 50-80 pages at the posts.

Y'All got whipped. Even SP said it... if you think you could have done better then do your best, prove you can do better and he'll resign. I've never heard those words come from the mouths of a winner.

Can't remember any victory speech saying "If you think you could have done better"...

After all that, I'd like to see: How much did you cost the Australian Economy vs. what you gained in wages.

I'll bet you my next years salary that you cost a sh*t load more to the Australian economy (not even including what you cost QANTAS) than you got back in your "deal".

Thanks for the damage you selfish guys.

Set back labour relations 30 years

This has highlighted the guys who still live with 30 year old ideals - the union - it's the only way they exist. Dinosaurs in a modern age. What's funny is that you pay dues and you get 3%...

If you took that when first offered what would you wage be today?

BigGun

19th Jul 2008, 13:30

I'll bet you my next years salary that you cost a sh*t load more to the Australian economy (not even including what you cost QANTAS) than you got back in your "deal".

How about asking QANTAS how much its costing them what the poor maint planning and lack of staff is costing them. The PIA may be over for now, but the a/c are still going to be braking on line.

2 767's in sydney over the weekend with fuel leaks in the engine

The Mr Fixit

19th Jul 2008, 13:30

Looking up my Spanish dictionary.........................
ElPerro, ah yes......... 'THE PEANUT'
Roll on Monday

ElPerro

19th Jul 2008, 13:40

Actually "The Peanut" would be El cacahuete or El cacahuate.

Like I said Steve, thanks , no matter what the number.

I'm betting Steve didn't miss a dollar whilst guys were missing overtime.

upsidefront

19th Jul 2008, 13:45

When was PAF banned? Jul2008?

NAS1801

19th Jul 2008, 13:46

This message is hidden because ElPerro is on your ignore list. Simple as that guys. He has nothing constructive to contribute. Don't react, just ignore!

ampclamp

19th Jul 2008, 13:47

another bet that will never see the light of day.

Galley Raider

19th Jul 2008, 14:36

Is that an ex-ops manager or an ex-MACS ranting to himself?
Time to exit pprune and head to seek.com. Bye bye loser

ejectx3

19th Jul 2008, 14:39

I don't get it? Why would you end this with anything short of 5% You were winning! All you had to do was wait! What changed?

HARDNUT

19th Jul 2008, 20:17

All this speculation.Lets wait and see what the offer is.

If its not suitable we go back and start PIA again.

lordofthewings

19th Jul 2008, 21:20

i think Elperro is 103% correct..Why would SP make a comment such as " if you think you could do better" You guys and girls have made yourselves look like a bunch of wankers if you accept 3%, no matter what the shiny bits are like, if there is any.
The morale will again drop just as quickly as it has been raised, people will go back to there empires, the same people will get all the training, and the old farts that do fu.k all will continue doing what they do best.
And after all this its time to start negotiating a new EBA....
Its not just the managers that have destroyed a great brand, but many of you need to go home and look in the mirror. more then likely think your the greatest engineers in the world....HA HA like elperro says..:ok:
LOSERS
And im not a manager and not a scab, just an ex employee that left cos he was sick of putting up with all the BS...Good to see that it is so entrenched.....

ampclamp

19th Jul 2008, 22:25

exactly right hardnut.If its not suitable re-apply the blowtorch.
Remembering that 5% was the headline figure to be quoted for negotiations.A combo deal will suit me fine IF its around that number for ALL.
I suspect quite strongly some of beloved QE managers will be shown the door.That will provide real satisfaction.
Dixon's words that frontline staff wont have too much to worry about means there's not much left to trim.
A bloated management structure and the proliferation of ops centre staff and planners needs a review.Little if any cost benefit in my observation.

thanks again to SP and the team no matter what the number is.
Your work is recognised regardless of the outcome.:D

kotoyebe

20th Jul 2008, 01:12

I don't get it? Why would you end this with anything short of 5% You were winning! All you had to do was wait! What changed?

Spot on ejectx3. If tomorrow brings 3% with sweetners, next year you all get only 3% on your salary, OT, penalties and super. You again go backwards. I thought the whole point was to break the 3% BS with a number greater than 3, to stop you going BACKWARDS.

I suppose we are all jumping the gun until we see what's on offer, but SP's comment about "if you can do better" is very telling. I wonder what happened in those meetings this week? It appeared that the rank and file were prepared for it to go longer and more intense.

If it's a headline 3%, then I can't see what you guys have won, but all thanks to the boys and girls at Bexley for your efforts anyway.

ampclamp

20th Jul 2008, 01:29

Hi Kotoyebe,
That remark by SP was probably off the cuff and likely the result of too much work not enough sleep and a reaction to gun jumping by some posters.I would not like to be reading too much into that.

The alaea update (is what matters)and says ALL lame's will receive remuneration in line with internal targets set by the executive.Remuneration is money/pay or salary.

I dont give a stuff how its structured, if its money in my pocket and its around the right number I'll take it.The super bit will likely stay but it MUST include all in a fair manner.

We all have some bad blood here and high expectations considering what has been said and done by q management but need to be prepared to cut our people some slack in the offer structure if the gains are real.
Workplace legislation is still pretty skewed to the employer and there are limits both legally and politically.

chksatis

20th Jul 2008, 03:03

Also another thing to read into is that FOG made the remark of the pilots agreement being (3%). Our agreement was only ever refered to as being within the companys (wage guidelines) so by him saying not (3%) is something that we must be patient for.

Toolpants

20th Jul 2008, 04:49

We are all too impatient.

We need to wait till Monday to see the offer.
It will be some time before we even vote on it and then we will have to wait to see the out come of the vote.

The only way the deal will happen is if the majority of LAME’s vote it in because they like it.

If the majority of us don’t like it, we vote NO. Simple.

SP and the Fed Exec have done a sensational job. Thanks.

I know if they are on the ballet papers for the next ALAEA elections, they all have my vote again.

emal140

20th Jul 2008, 05:14

Guys, whatever the agreement tabled, it will be voted on democratically and will result in it getting up or thrown out. I believe the former. If QF come to us for a solution you know they were in a situation they couldn't control. What I hope is that whatever the result we have gone so far with this campaign, we don't want to let our solidarity and determination dissolve. Even if the outcome is accepted, we need to keep ourselves focused on EBA9, it is only 24 months away (if it is backdated). I would put a sure bet that QF will not let themselves be caught with their pants down again. To me, what is important is how we carry ourselves between now and the next EBA. Just because we seem to have had the upper hand this time doesn't mean we will next time. People, management and CEO's learn by their mistakes.

Short_Circuit

20th Jul 2008, 05:31

EBA IX - How many bowls of rice per week are they going to bargain with? :sad:

CAVEDWELLER

20th Jul 2008, 06:49

If it was 3% or 3% plus 1% super do you think anyone could stop FOG from boasting about it? Wait until Monday. "In line with company renumeration policy" allows FOG to keep face. It wont be an newsworthy item when all the numbers are added up. Remember the wage freeze and technology points?
:ok::ok::ok:

thosecotos

20th Jul 2008, 07:04

thosecotos, Would you care to expand this comment? Sorry I'm a bit tired and maybe the logic is staring me in the face, but could you please humour me just this once?

QLAEA

i think Elperro is 103% correct..Why would SP make a comment such as " if you think you could do better" You guys and girls have made yourselves look like a bunch of wankers if you accept 3%, no matter what the shiny bits are like, if there is any.

Yep

lordofthewings

20th Jul 2008, 07:06

Wage freeze, you got training points instead...Took most people up a grade or got them 3yrs closer if they had just moved up..Not as if we got nothing..

Short_Circuit

20th Jul 2008, 07:39

To a lot of us training points mean ZIP. Locked out for the past 15 plus years.

I want to see progression for everyone! :)

Ngineer

20th Jul 2008, 07:41

People, management and CEO's learn by their mistakes.

Everywhere except Qantas mate.

employes perspective

20th Jul 2008, 08:24

Wage freeze, you got training points instead...Took most people up a grade or got them 3yrs closer if they had just moved up..Not as if we got nothing..

for some yes,everyone else that come onto the LAME pay scale after that they got nothing..:=:=

satos

20th Jul 2008, 09:07

My fellow engineers,inflation is currently at 4.2% and with Kevin Rudd's carbon
tax coming into play it is expected to add another 0.9% to inflation.That totals to 5.1% and if we except any lower we will be well and truly behind the eight ball.

5% AND NOTHING LESS

1me

20th Jul 2008, 09:17

Don't you just love those people who come out of the woodwork to throw in their little cheap shots and then run away back into anonymity? Classy stuff! :D:D:D
I suppose it takes real courage to do that... and you call us losers? :rolleyes:

Guys let's not jump the gun. We haven't even seen the document for goodness sake! Just be patient and wait until tomorrow when curiousity will be quenched. Then as many have said..if you don't like it vote no. This is still a democracy.

rtv

20th Jul 2008, 09:29

Whats the story with the ACS (Sydney) managers getting the arse ? So the new ops managers will be directly below MH.:ok:

UP D Date

20th Jul 2008, 09:31

I'll be happy if its 3% + sweeteners, and think SP and the boys have done a great job. However, I would like to continue the OT bans as a vote of no-confidence in the current engineering management, and keep on untill they resign!!:ok:

Acute Instinct

20th Jul 2008, 09:41

Tomorrow's release is as important as any announcement in our union's history.
When our requests and needs have been adequately addressed in the opinion of +50% of our membership, we as a democratic entity will have prevailed.
If it is voted down, the referral of a second in principle agreement to a loyal and compliant membership for rejection would be akin to a vote of no confidence.
So, to all, think long and hard how it is you shall vote.

SpannerTwister

20th Jul 2008, 09:46

.....So, to all, think long and hard how it is you shall vote.

My vote will not be long and hard...It will be very short and very easy....

If PresentPay + PayIncrease >= PresentPay + 5% then Vote = YES : ELSE Vote = NO

SpannerTwister

Acute Instinct

20th Jul 2008, 10:01

Could you, in simple english terms outline your lowest denomination for acceptance. To engage an obviously conservative individual at this late stage could prove to be invaluable. If its not going to get your vote, at least the exec could just turn their backs and leave the rubbish on the table before any announcements.

sfde

20th Jul 2008, 10:16

I have read posts regarding the pilots EBA discussing a complete overhaul of the document with new pay structures, conditions and pay rates. Would it be naive to think this may be on the cards for this EBA. The simplification would be a step forward but is the trust there to embrace a complete new EBA. Everything else they have changed hasn't exactly bought them unanimous praise.

2ofsix

20th Jul 2008, 10:24

Why are some managers carrying 2 buckets of pi33ed off around?
Why did the Fat controller refuse to sign AL form?
Why are all sick leave forms sent to managers?
Why is hr manager around on sunday?

Buggery campaign over???? May be not......

Did they expect all lames to come running in to do OT from friday night shift without looking at the agreement and digesting it?

SpannerTwister

20th Jul 2008, 10:31

SpannerTwister
Could you, in simple english terms outline your lowest denomination for acceptance. To engage an obviously conservative individual at this late stage could prove to be invaluable. If its not going to get your vote, at least the exec could just turn their backs and leave the rubbish on the table before any announcements.

Not too sure if you're having a friendly go at me :ok:, really don't understand my position :O, or are having a nasty dig at me :*.......Sometimes that's the trouble with postings, without emoticons it can often be hard to really know what another is saying :confused: !!

__________________________________________

All I'm saying, is that if we get a straight-out 5% increase, or a 3% "increase" + 2% worth of "trinkets", it'll get my vote !!

As long as WE'VE ALL GOT 5% more money on our payslips to pay our electricity bills, our gas bills, our car rego and pink slips, our telephone and insurance bills, the first fortnight after we sign-off on it, that's all I ask.

If it's 2 service points for Kones, except those prior to '96, with Blackhanders to get 3 service points, except those post '96 in which case those groups will get one level in 12 months time, but levels 11 - 13 remain capped, except for ex-AWA engineers, unless they are over level 12, and levels 3 - 7 go up one grade, unless they have more then two service points, in which case their superannuation will be increased by 2%, unless they are in division 6, in which case they will get an extra 1.7% rise, or two points if they already have three points except all those who are already level three or above, in which case they will get 3%. Pass the pineapple.

^^^^^^^
Something like this is NOT what I had in mind :=

SpannerTwister

Galley Raider

20th Jul 2008, 10:38

...except for ex-AWA engineers..
Those were the days...

DELAY 410

20th Jul 2008, 10:43

Quick few of questions :
" If " we reject this offer what happens next? ( Do we start from square 1 again or does it go to arbitration and we get beaten with a different stick? )
What's the downside of holding out longer, I mean we've been going this long does a little longer really matter?
Do we have to kiss and make up with the managers if we accept it? ( some find it easier than others I'm sure.:yuk: )
Why are people still being " asked " to work overtime for 1 hour and questioned as to their reasons for not wanting to do it?:=, and, how long will it be till " OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS " is stop being used as an excuse for not granting peoples leave?
I just want to know what my options are and what the repercussions of my decision might be.
By the way, THANKYOU, Bexley Boys and Girls your efforts are much appreciated :ok:

ALAEA Fed Sec

20th Jul 2008, 10:47

The suspense is killing me . . . . ..................

Acute Instinct

20th Jul 2008, 11:06

With all due respect Mr. Fed Sec, the suspense is killing us.

domo

20th Jul 2008, 11:07

fed sec any news on the timing of the anouncement
will it be a notice

rtv

20th Jul 2008, 11:14

Tell me why?
Why are some managers carrying 2 buckets of pi33ed off around?
Why did the Fat controller refuse to sign AL form?
Why are all sick leave forms sent to managers?
Why is hr manager around on sunday?

Buggery campaign over???? May be not......

Did they expect all lames to come running in to do OT from friday night shift without looking at the agreement and digesting it?

Last edited by 2ofsix : Today at 20:26. Reason: Second Thoughts

Your not wrong, something just does not smell right. Why would the managers be trying to upset the apple cart this close to the possible finalization of our PIA?:confused:

rtv

20th Jul 2008, 11:19

by 2ofsix
Tell me why?
Why are some managers carrying 2 buckets of pi33ed off around?
Why did the Fat controller refuse to sign AL form?
Why are all sick leave forms sent to managers?
Why is hr manager around on sunday?

Buggery campaign over???? May be not......

Did they expect all lames to come running in to do OT from friday night shift without looking at the agreement and digesting it?

Today 20:16

Something is not right

Long Bay Mauler

20th Jul 2008, 11:22

Hopefully its a notice,as some of us dont go back until Friday.......

Its a bit like Xmas eve says my mate.:ok:

ALAEA Fed Sec

20th Jul 2008, 11:27

I am just playing around with the words for the notice tonight. Should be about lunchtime. First to receive will be those who have a valid email address at our office.

cheers

SpannerTwister

20th Jul 2008, 11:38

I am just playing around with the words for the notice tonight. Should be about lunchtime. First to receive will be those who have a valid email address at our office.

Put the kids to bed, tap the Missus on the shoulder and worry about the notice tomorrow :ok: !!

If the Missus asks, tell her that the members reckon you deserve it :D:D !!

SpannerTwister

upsidefront

20th Jul 2008, 11:40

Thanks for the hard work mate!

P.S. I have lunch at 0100 :} :ok:

Lickthejet

20th Jul 2008, 11:49

The Rumour about eba 8
Gday troops,

First i must say that the FedExc, in my oponion have done a remarkable job.

The biggest test came, when a rumour was handed down throu reasonable channels.

>>>> A LOADED GUN >>>>> and this one is pointing at our own association !!!!!

FOD had made a threat.....

He was going to break the bank....the 4/5 million that the union has in the kitty, was going to be swallowed, in a few massive gulps....as the start of Litagiation was in the gun sites...damages against QF will begin.

Has this buckled our negotiation??

Why were the bands lifted ???
Is this why we crumbled ???
We all still have to vote !!!

I now eargly await the the propasal.

Comments please
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=4277302) http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

ALAEA Fed Sec

20th Jul 2008, 13:42

Happy to work away while I watch an Aussie in a yellow shirt ride around France on his pushy and an old man play golf. :O

F.O.G.

20th Jul 2008, 14:05

Happy to work away while I watch an Aussie in a yellow shirt ride around France on his pushy and an old man play golf.

Must be nice to finally relax a bit huh?! :D

Go Cadel......but I'm waiting for the old man to pull his good old auto-choke out of the bag!! :eek:

kotoyebe

20th Jul 2008, 22:39

He was going to break the bank....the 4/5 million that the union has in the kitty, was going to be swallowed, in a few massive gulps....as the start of Litagiation was in the gun sites...damages against QF will begin.

Doesn't the "P" in P.I.A stand for protected?

Shrug

20th Jul 2008, 23:00

What is protected industrial action...

Protected industrial action means that during enterprise bargaining, union members may legally take action. If you do take action, it is against the law for Qantas to threaten you, sack you, victimise you, treat you worse than people who didn’t take action, or sue either yourself or the Union office for any losses the company incurs.

Industrial action includes taking action like stopwork meetings, bans, limitations or restrictions on the performance of work (work to rule), go on strike.

mister hilter

20th Jul 2008, 23:21

still waiting for a sensible answer. Quoting me and then saying "QLAEA" doesn't cut it. If you want to you can PM me and I will fill you in on a few details. If you are just fishing, well you've had your Andy Warhol designated time in the spotlight.
Cheers, MH

thosecotos

21st Jul 2008, 01:49

If you want to you can PM me and I will fill you in on a few details. If you are just fishing, well you've had your Andy Warhol designated time in the spotlight

No fishing...check your inbox.

tc

BLF Goon

21st Jul 2008, 02:21

1746 unfortunately the unity you speak of didn't happen in Cairns and Townsville.

We had Dmm's,Seniors & LAME's working shift extensions,call ins,aircraft rectification at remote ports,delivery flights, postings overseas and domestic.

Union reps participated in these (even call ins).Some O.T was done without putting timesheets in because they knew it was the wrong thing morally!

The Cairns Dmm's were the worst lining their pockets by working obscene amounts of overtime.They even had the audacity to comment "that they are helping the PIA by doing this".

The only thing that all of these people succeeded in doing was to make the PIA drag on longer.:=

The only positive outcome from these actions is now all these people have been exposed and no-one will forget.They walk around the workplace hanging their heads and people hardly talk to them.

Thankyou to S.P and all the negotiating team,also a big thankyou to all the volunteers,exec's,union reps etc.:D:D

It has been a tough time but your efforts are appreciated,looking forward to seeing the agreement.

The GOON

Long Bay Mauler

21st Jul 2008, 02:35

Lucky the company has seen fit to downsize Cairns,because you certainly would not want to be working alongside or under people with morals like that.

Always remember to tell anyone applying for a position in Cairns,just what sort of people work there......and it would be better to wait for a changing of the old guard.

Devcon4

21st Jul 2008, 02:48

Nice job Fed Sec! Hope it comes up to scratch!

Even though a notice came out on Friday that the PIA was over some of the guys over at the Sydney Intl still got the interview with 3 Managers present asking for them to work O/T after shift. Read "pressure". When declined they wanted a reason and some were told that this will be normal when they come over to help the Base guys. The SIO guys work 0600 to 1700 and have been told they will be expected to work 0600 to 1800 to line up with the base guys.

What's with this? Compulsory O/T? Why is this still going on? Truce flag has supposed to have gone up and bulets are still coming from QF managers!

This happening at any other ports?

If management are reading this, think about what you guys are up to. We do not take kindly to being pressured. You guys don't really want another war do you? Or DO you?

If you kick sand around the sandpit you may just get it kicked back at you or the wind may blow it back in your face.

Cut out the bulls++t! If you guys are fair dinkum and just want guys to work O/T now the PIA is over, just ask! You don't need 2 Managers (DM & PS) and 1 Ops Manager to do that. You ARE playing silly buggers! Naughty!

Common sense must prevail at this point on both sides. If these Managers are working on their own (which I doubt) they need to be pulled into line now. If they are doing what they are told from above heads should roll!

We all want this over with a good result for all. If these idiots keep throwing stones and try to pull the compulsory O/T card out the boys will revolt. Very simple. It then becomes personal, no PIA, no ALAEA/LAMES vs QF. People will not be bullied.

FED SEC what the hell are doing? We need this crap to stop NOW!

Any other ports getting this same garbage?

Devcon4

Short_Circuit

21st Jul 2008, 03:18

The EBA notice is now available on ALAEA site.

Redstone

21st Jul 2008, 03:35

Document passed on to treasury to do the numbers, I suggest all members do same and not just scan the dot points.

domo

21st Jul 2008, 03:35

THE NOTICE IS OUT

A big yes from me well done steve and team

BrissySparkyCoit

21st Jul 2008, 03:41

Details anyone??

crackfinder

21st Jul 2008, 03:44

I would have got more under the first offer, I know its not all about me but this is the second time I have had to wear a less offer the second time round. Why did we have industrial action? More for all? maybe not?

capt.cynical

21st Jul 2008, 03:46

Lotsa ex QF people have been following this battle,only wish my ex union had the "cojunes" of you guys and your exucitive.:)

Bolty McBolt

21st Jul 2008, 03:47

Well done Fed Sec and team.

Noice:ok:

MR WOBBLES

21st Jul 2008, 03:50

well done to the exec at alaea
i here the alternate boys :mad:ers have just been given a pay drop
maybe they could ask the alaea for help in their negotiations

blubak

21st Jul 2008, 03:56

Just read the notice-its a yes from me and considering the pressure these guys have been under to give us a result as well as having to deal with a company that was never prepared to move i think they have really given us something that we have never achieved before.Granted there are some that have not done as well as others but in life that happens and it could be our turn next time.WELL DONE,time to move forward.

Short_Circuit

21st Jul 2008, 04:09

Question
Do our accrued service points get carried over on grade movement
or are they absorbed? :confused:

i here the alternate boys :mad:ers have just been given a pay drop

I hope it is a 100% drop!:ooh:

VVVV Thanks Bexley :ok:

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 04:10

Accrued points get carried over.

FCMC

21st Jul 2008, 04:16

If you says that's the best SP well im happy with that. :D You have more inside knowledge than anyone else. All must remember the respect and importance Engineering now have in the eyes of management. All there lies are now out in the open and the deficiency's apparent for all to see. Mr KB may wish to eat his words about he level increase eh. Remember he said we were too greedy.
Brilliant work Bexley!

HMMECH

21st Jul 2008, 04:19

Good outcome. Congrats to the negotiating team. Gets the thumbs up from me.:ok:

georgeandstork

21st Jul 2008, 04:23

Question
Do you still need training points to move up a grade ? ie 11 12 13 14 ?

capt.cynical

21st Jul 2008, 04:25

How about some plain english details for us supporters.
Did you achieve overall the 5% you were after?:):D

Short_Circuit

21st Jul 2008, 04:31

Let's just say that we seem happy with the "Package". Win / Win.:ok:

The sad thing is that we could have been here in 2007 and Qf

would not have brought on so much pain to the airline. This is managements own fault! :{

HARDNUT

21st Jul 2008, 04:52

George and stork, The way i read it is 11 onwards still needs full training course.Fed Sec is this true? and how have the quota's been relaxed??

Looks like a pretty good deal well done. There still will be the people that will vote no because they are disenchanted with the treatment they have received from the company.

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 04:55

The requirement for training to progress moves up one grade along with quota brackets etc...

STRIKEBREAKERBRAKA

21st Jul 2008, 04:57

Yes hardnut i agree,but i think the majority will give it the thumbs up.Well done everyone involved.:D:D:D:D:D:O

1746

21st Jul 2008, 05:05

Sp and the Team!!!!

Well Done:):D:):D:)

Notice says "plus a level for every LAME" and that means exactly that doesn't it?

Syd eng

21st Jul 2008, 05:06

Pretty good outcome for me, will see me move up 2 grades in pretty quick time. Another yes vote here.

domo

21st Jul 2008, 05:07

4.5% pay rise + a grade rise = over 10% divided by 2 = over 5%
and the 3% rise in 5 months time comes at the higher grade

WELL DONE GUYS every lame gets a grade jump, better than I hoped for

Stagger Lee

21st Jul 2008, 05:19

Well I have just studied the document and barring any hidden glitches or misinterpretation from the fat lady or GD (the qantas brand destroyer) it will get my vote .... with a big thank you card for the fed executive and his bunch of merry men :ok: :ok: :D

CTMike

21st Jul 2008, 05:20

The greatest result (besides the money)is that we have shown our resolve.They expected us to divide and crumble but we stuck together and won.3% on face value who cares we know that we got our five.

Sunfish

21st Jul 2008, 05:26

And everyone lived happily ever after.

....Except for those who scabbed while you were on PIA.

Congratulations to your Executive and to all of you for having the intelligence and guts to stay united and stick to your guns.

It's now obvious that QF have cut way too deep in their engineering workforce, but the Board and DC probably still believe the Boeing/Airbus sales talk about reduced maintenance requirements - I'm sure their will be savings in manpower requirements....which will be partially offset by other requirements nobody saw coming.

Syd eng

21st Jul 2008, 05:32

over 11 was my calculation too, I will see 2 grades over the term of the agreement.

ballhopper

21st Jul 2008, 05:38

my package has increased over 10%
the missus will be pleased

Lean Sigma

21st Jul 2008, 05:44

jack diamond

21st Jul 2008, 05:47

also the taxman will be pleased

chockchucker

21st Jul 2008, 05:57

Fed Sec,

my compliments to you and the negotiating team on a job well done. I think the vast majority will do as well as could hoped for out of the deal (realistically at least).

If I have one small gripe, it would be the staff travel priority point (J14 for LAME's with 10 years service). Trivial perhaps but, a LAME is a LAME. Not sure why we had to discriminate between those who have 10 years service and those that don't. I think that the achievement of qualifying as a LAME deserves the same priority as one's colleages (years of service not withstanding).

Apart from that one small gripe. Well done. I just hope Qantas doesn't try to screw us over in the final document. Personally, I'll be looking forward to getting on with business.

Thanks again to you and all the negotiating team for your hard work. Bet you're looking forward to EBA 9 :E

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 06:05

Useing raw figures

2007- 3%
2008- 1.5% plus a level.(level worth approx 4%)= 5.5%
2009- 3%
2010- 3%

Makes a total of 3% + 5.5% + 3% + 3% = 14.5%

14.5% / 4 years = 3.625 % per annum

This is reality and the devil in the detail.

The data you feed in needs to be correct to calculate your outcomes. A level is 4.3% for lvl 13 to 7.5% for a level 3. The $77 between each grade is going to be adjusted so the figure combined over the four years is never less than 16% or 4%pa. Super savings go on top then the additional level for those currently waitlisted, ready for lvl 15 or entering L10 during life of agreement.

stuntcock

21st Jul 2008, 06:07

I'd like to say job well done to the FED SEC for the negotiations with QF EBA Post PIA Offer.Good to see no negative feedback yet regarding this deal.

Personally for me this represents a great outcome considering global
aviation conditions at the moment.

I guess there will be some people that aren't happy with this deal,but I don't think pushing any further will achieve anything.

Put it to the vote I'm sure it will get up .:ok::ok::ok:

Don't tell your wife about the backpay :cool::cool::cool:

woollcott

21st Jul 2008, 06:25

I hope everybody has read the preamble in the notice, instead of just going to the dollars. It gives credit to the exec, and explains the likely outcomes of continuing the action and/or 48hr stoppages. It seems the exec walked a very fine line, and did it to perfection. Congratulations for a job well done.

I would have liked to see an additional item.
I would like an apology concerning their slander of us. If not, at the very least a statement from GD or DC as to the worth of engineers to the company.

Mind you, I wont be holding my breath........................

Ngineer

21st Jul 2008, 06:28

:ok: to the ALAEA exec and your legal team.

Your first go at negotiating an EBA has been very impressive indeed. You have all carried this out with a very high degree of professionalism, caution, insight and integrity. I am a proud LAME once more and you have again won my vote.

You should all be congratulated for your hard work.

carltonjudd

21st Jul 2008, 06:34

all that for so little. next time just take the first offer. if this is the best we can do we all all in trouble:(.

Bolty McBolt

21st Jul 2008, 06:36

Hi to all

With this kind of result...Who needs over time !!!!!:} :} :} :}

QF94

21st Jul 2008, 06:46

4.5% pay rise + a grade rise = over 10% divided by 2 = over 5%
and the 3% rise in 5 months time comes at the higher grade

If only QF employed smart enough managers to see this in the first place. Unfortunately, we have a bunch of academics (not very good ones at that) making hard-ball decisions that cost the company not only hundreds of millions of dollars in delays, but in its reputation. This is going to take many years to fix.

QANTAS is a very good company and the people in it are also good, but is run by ill-fated half wits!

At least there is now some closure and we can all get on with what we are employed to do. That is to get the aircraft backlog cleared and get on with our job.

Hopefully there won't be the old standover tactics from our so-called managers ensuring we're doing our job, although I don't think they'll show their faces around in too much of a hurry.

Good job FedSec. Well done to all for digging in and waiting out the management.

:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D

fixitdude

21st Jul 2008, 06:47

To Fed Sec,
Great job by yourself and the team at Bexly! A good outcome under very trying conditions. My only question is how the backpay is calculated? Is it calculated from 1/1/07 to 31/12/07 at 3%, and 1/1/08 to the first pay after lodgement at 1.5% plus the level increase, or the whole backpay back to 1/1/07 calculated on the value of the first pay after lodgement? .......Hope this makes sense, I'm starting to confuse myself!:confused:

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 06:52

calculated from 1/1/07 to 31/12/07 at 3%, and 1/1/08 to the first pay after lodgement at 1.5% plus the level increase

this one is correct.

beachhead

21st Jul 2008, 06:54

Considering the pressure exerted by the company and others, and the implications that could have been involved if this went to arbitration, I think this is a great result and the ALAEA team should hold their heads high.:D

Well done.

I am one of the ones who get the minimal end of the increase.
My Vote
:ok:

Guess we didn't have any luck with the King Gee shirts any anti sack sweat pants!:}:}:}

ejectx3

21st Jul 2008, 07:07

Well done LAME's. I hope my efforts helped in some way. No need to eject!

lordofthewings

21st Jul 2008, 07:07

Well i was well and truly proven to be a cynical prick...Well done to everyone, just worked it out if i was still at QF, and it worked out to be just under 10% for two years...A great result...:D

Short_Circuit

21st Jul 2008, 07:14

all that for so little. next time just take the first offer. if this is the best we can do we all all in trouble

Its not so much the percentage value but what is not in the agreement that is important.
You could be greedy and take cash upfront and sell your soul & that of upcoming LAMEs.

I for one have scraped bare bones increases but am happy to see those behind me reaping the benefit.

This is about saving engineering as a career for all, not just a few.

P.S. Still waiting for the fat lady to sing (see the document) and if it is tarnished ............ the fight is still on.

griffin one

21st Jul 2008, 07:25

Good result. Well done to the exec. Now look at the document and vote with your head. The bridge of trust has been forever burned,No more will the ilk defame our name. the bodies of our enemies did not float by,But we all have to seperate the issues. Time for sp and exec to take a well deserved break. How about a motion for the exec to have a holiday on the members?

upsidefront

21st Jul 2008, 08:01

Thanks for the hard work Bexley boys!!

I think we need to look at the document very closely. A big point in our arguments have been CPI, which is about 4.3%. Now looking at the table in the document on page 2, LAME's Level 4 and below are slightly up on CPI and level 5 and above clock in below CPI. (Now I gain because I am level 4 so no sour grapes and so on......) :=

So once again we get less than the cost of living increase.

This is the first offer the company made after taking major pain during the PIA campaign, now call me a cynic but you wouldn't expect them to come back with the offer that suited us best.

I know that the EBA is a democratic vote, but the company knows they only have to please 51% of the members to get it up.

Dockie

21st Jul 2008, 08:16

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

enough said!!!!!

wake_up_geff

21st Jul 2008, 08:41

bring on 1/1/2011
thanks to all involved

Torque It Up !!

21st Jul 2008, 09:10

Its YES from ME !!!!!!!!! :):):):)

Well done to all at the ALAEA !!

Lets all just get on with more pleasant things in life now....

emal140

21st Jul 2008, 09:25

Excellent result to the executive :ok::ok::ok:. Well done lads. Let us maintain the resolve through to EBA IX and beyond. (sounds like Buzz Lightyear, hey!).

Just one question to clarify , what is the progression to get through to the upper grades? Is it 'training points' or a 'full type rating'. Been bugging me for years what the 'Technology Points were...'.

emal140

21st Jul 2008, 09:30

Wheres Redhawke when you need some comedy relief...

stiffnut

21st Jul 2008, 09:43

Where do you think he is, under the table giving a consolation prize to the fat controller

Gen Y

21st Jul 2008, 09:43

"New Qantas Type LAME entry set at level 4"

Does this mean if you were already a level 3 on 1/1/07 you would go up to level 4 as of this date?

Nufsixes

21st Jul 2008, 09:48

If the EBA was voted YES, and I was currently a Mechanical Level 9 waiting to go to Level 10 as of the anniversary date in August 2007 - will I go through Level 10, and up to Level 11 after all is said and done, or will I be trapped at Level 10 until further training?

section 41

21st Jul 2008, 10:16

Have read the document and done the numbers, lots of permutations but it looks like a far fairer deal for all particularly at the lower end.

There is little doubt that this deal (If it is not welshed on by QF management) is a victory for all Qantas LAMEs. Our position within the company is stronger for our action and the unity shown is an example for all. I don't care how the company try to sell it we have taken the moral high ground and stood together.

Great Job:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 10:21

"New Qantas Type LAME entry set at level 4"

Does this mean if you were already a level 3 on 1/1/07 you would go up to level 4 as of this date?

Without the doc in front of me I think this comes in 1/1/8. If you have 2 service points up you will go to 4 with your 2 service points.

If the EBA was voted YES, and I was currently a Mechanical Level 9 waiting to go to Level 10 as of the anniversary date in August 2007 - will I go through Level 10, and up to Level 11 after all is said and done, or will I be trapped at Level 10 until further training?

Pretty sure it will get you to 11. Everyone gets the first grade. The training point only level moves up and the waitlist at 11 would be cleared. As of agreement implementation which will be after 16 Aug aniversary date waitlist will be cleared.

Imperial Senate

21st Jul 2008, 10:27

Well done ALAEA team. Thanks for all your hard work and long nights.
Just Question for you all.(EG).... Will A level 12 or 13 LAME progress up one level for the 1st of Jan 2008 plus 1.5%? Is Progression through the grading system with technology and compliance considered the same as training points? Will progression for this purpose be quota restricted?
If so, is this a view shared by both parties to the agreement.Just thought that should be cleared up, As todays Notice Does say "plus a level for every LAME". Thanks guys sure you have it covered.

Well Done!:ok:

Red Baron

21st Jul 2008, 10:30

Page 3 Dot Point #21

BNE Heavy Maintenance flexibilities only to be enacted when A330's returned to BNESo does this mean that the flexibilities only apply when a A330 is physically in the hangar OR does it mean that once the A330's return to BNE that the 'sweep' of flexibilities get FULLY implemented for ever?

If the answer is the second part of my question's then QF have now got their foot in the door for their flexibilities rosters. This will now flow all the way down the east coast of Australia into MEL Heavy. I know for a fact that my old brothers down there are NOT going to want a bar of this!

Don't let the dollar signs suck you in guys, read the document in its entirety and fully understand what each clause means and says. Remember your brothers in other ports and how some of these clauses may effect them. You have all stuck together up to this point, don't get selfish now for a lousy buck!

Short_Circuit

21st Jul 2008, 10:40

I thought the flexibilities were already voted in by a separate ballot just weeks ago. Nothing to do with this EBA?

Red Baron

21st Jul 2008, 10:46

I thought the flexibilities were already voted in by a separate ballot just weeks ago. Nothing to do with this EBA?

Short Circuit is correct, why is this clause now in the EBA when I heard that it was just going to be a local agreement?

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 10:49

Will A level 12 or 13 LAME progress up one level for the 1st of Jan 2008 plus 1.5%?

yes

If so, is this a view shared by both parties to the agreement.

yes

So does this mean that the flexibilities only apply when a A330 is physically in the hangar OR does it mean that once the A330's return to BNE that the 'sweep' of flexibilities get FULLY implemented for ever?

It can't be only when aircraft in hangar or else everyone would go home as the aircraft gets towed out. It's when the A330 work returns to Aus and the only facility doing them will be Bne.

If the answer is the second part of my question's then QF have now got their foot in the door for their flexibilities rosters. This will now flow all the way down the east coast of Australia into MEL Heavy.

This is rubbish. It is fenced off to Bne because the Bne guys have been allocated a set amount of training and overall have agreed to the changes.

If the Melbourne blokes don't want the rosters or flexibilities then they don't get them. This was the result of the Melbourne vote and until they accept the changes, this union will stand by them. If in some point in time management are pointing fingers up North saying "but you have agreed for them in Bne" we say "so what mate, we haven't here". it doesn't get any simpler than that.

ConcernedLAME

21st Jul 2008, 10:54

Red Baron..if you were in the meeting in BNE Heavy with Steve a couple of weeks ago ,you would understand what a yes vote meant....It was clearly explained ...

One Eye Redundant

21st Jul 2008, 11:02

A big THANK YOU to the exec for the deal in front of me.

Unfortunately for the company, this is the sort of reasonable outcome I would have expected back in January 2007. The pain they have put all LAMEs and their families through in the last 18 months will not be an easy thing to forgive.

A big note to GD and his team for the future. EBA means a BARGAINING agreement reached through negotiation, not a BULLYING agreement reached by intimidating your staff.

Never again will LAMEs stand for this kind of treatment by QF. We are all reasonable people until backed into a corner.

Red Baron

21st Jul 2008, 11:04

Thanks for the clarifications Fed Sec, had to ask the question as I know how these buggers twist and contort the wording in these EBA's.

I can just see QF IR when an issue comes up on ones interpretation on a clause-Oh no that's not how that clause should be read, it should be read that you are bending over getting ready for another pineapple to be inserted up your backside! :\

ALAEA Fed Sec

21st Jul 2008, 11:10

Negative Feedback

21st Jul 2008, 11:22

Stuntcock wrote: Good to see no negative feedback yet regarding this deal.Well I'm here, reading as I have for months, commenting occasionally.
On the face of it I don't seem to do as well as some. I really don't care.
Others seem to benefit more, but that is still a good result, I'm not selfish.

Great to see the association, leaders and members, get their act together.

The result I really want to see is the whole Engineering division of the company treated as an asset beyond a balance sheet, the support systems made workable, the "profit only" work ethic of our peak, middle and minor management take a back seat.

Until then I just need to see the deal laid out and the company actually honour it. They do not have my trust.

Alien Role

21st Jul 2008, 11:24

Scanning through this thread, I have noticed a couple of references to a QE manager who was with the SRA.
Am I correct in assuming you have an Engineering manager who is not an "airlines industry person" and is in fact not a LAME?
The reason I ask, is that I have had disscussions with a person who has had engineering dealings with the SRA and his comments were that he had never before dealt with such a dithering, frustrating group of people, unable to make decisions unless they had numerous committee meetings.

On another matter; totally agree with Short Circuit #3941 - that any EBA agreement must ensure the more junior / "unborn children" of your profession are well looked after, for it is those who will learn from you, to maintain the integrity of your noble profession and solidarity into the future.
It is something that various pilot representative bodies have not done in the recent past.

Role on....

Roy&HG

21st Jul 2008, 11:34

Well done Fed Sec and your team , you have shown us what we can get when we stick together as a mass and not divided. Thanks for all the effort you have put in , sometimes the job of a Rep is a thankless task , but not now I take my hat off to you all.:D
Feel that maybe its the start of a new era of how Qantas will look at the members of the ALAEA from now on and maybe leave the fear tactics behind and act like professionals as you in the Exec has shown them.:D
As for Qantas and your tactics over the years ,it may be water under the bridge but will not be forgotten in a hurry:=
So again well done SP " Union of Merit Award" :ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D

wantsta

21st Jul 2008, 13:28

Well run campaign, congrats to ALL members of the executive.

Got a comment for a "few" snipers TL PR, on Melb line crew 1 domestic, who

stuck the knives in to big Wes B when things got a bit hairy. Your

nothing but a bunch of scared whimps. Too quick to mouth off behind

his back about how you could have done a better job and commenting on

how we better except the companies first piss poor offer or else. Bet you

your quicker to take the pay rise than you are to apologise. Will be

listening out to hear you say how wrong you were, but won't be

holding my breath.

DELAY 410

21st Jul 2008, 15:22

Thanks Fed Sec the deal looks good to me :D.

Just heard this does it sound familiar, ( lean sigma is a Toyota thing isn't it )

A Japanese company (Let's call it Toyota) and an American company (Ummmm, how about Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the "Rowing Team Quality First Program," with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India.

Sadly,
The End.

Here's something else to think about:
Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US.

The last quarter's results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

NAS1801

21st Jul 2008, 16:17

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses. Ford folks are still scratching their heads.I like it! So damn close to how Qantas is going that it's not funny.

Ngineer

21st Jul 2008, 22:16

Delay 410, awesme post. And I bet some of those steering had never been in a bloody boat either. All too familiar. At least their consulting agency was correct.

MR WOBBLES

22nd Jul 2008, 00:47

Qantas breaks bounds to settle pay dispute | smh.com.au (http://business.smh.com.au/business/qantas-breaks-bounds-to-settle-pay-dispute-20080721-3iu5.html)

;)

triple bogie

22nd Jul 2008, 00:56

:D:D

Fed Sec and Exec's

Thank You.

U.W.S

CAVEDWELLER

22nd Jul 2008, 01:12

Will a Bne Hm Check coordinators starting level of 9 be increased to level 10 inline with the DMM's or will this be left at level 9 and become less attractive over time?

aveng

22nd Jul 2008, 02:17

Thanks to SP, Wookie, Wes, Vink and others I haven't mention, only wish this management could read their staff better this could have been avoided. "Tell im he's dreaming":ugh:

woofer12

22nd Jul 2008, 03:09

Well done to all involved :ok::ok:- just wondering where the levels are capped on the 2008 pay scales:confused:

Clipped

22nd Jul 2008, 03:11

Long Bay Mauler

22nd Jul 2008, 03:28

And so what is the timetable for the vote?

I guess this info is being distributed at work,but for those not at work,what sort of time frame can we expect to see things happen?

:ok:

empire4

22nd Jul 2008, 04:40

To alaea,

firstly, great job! you have made me believe again. pat yourself on the back.

Secondly, for some of the boys at work;

Q: If you became a LAME after 1/1/08 and are level 3 do you get a grade? I can interpret the deal a few different ways.

some of the boys got their licence in may/june so how do they fair?

thanks

emal140

22nd Jul 2008, 04:44

AVENG, I'm with you. This EBA is going straight to the pool room...

ALAEA Fed Sec

22nd Jul 2008, 04:48

All is quiet on the western front with the ALAEA PIA.
Have they accepted the 3% pay rise and are now off to convince their followers to accept it?
;)

In case I forgot to answer post number 1 of this thread, the simple answer is no.

1me

22nd Jul 2008, 05:06

FedSec.. Is the final document still being draughted? How long do you reckon before we see it?

Newgen

22nd Jul 2008, 05:16

Bravo SP and all involved with this terrific result:D:D:D:D

In the immortal lyrics of Woody Guthrie...

"Union song
union battle
all added up
won us all what we've got now"

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

delta 4

22nd Jul 2008, 10:11

Absolutely Brilliant :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

A big heart felt thanks to all on the ALAEA team for their fantastic patience and efforts in forcing QF to the table :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

D4 ;)

sfde

22nd Jul 2008, 10:34

Great outcome and congrats to the brilliant team in Bexley.

This will go down as a great win in the war but I feel there is along way to go if we wish to get our company back. Now that we have all learnt how to use the Policies and Procedures to the letter we should all keep doing so and if you have any doubt as to their effectiveness document the pitfalls. With proper feedback if we end up with any decent people in management after the cull they may be able to instigate some useful changes back to something that resembles common sense.

If your going to dream, dream big.

chocktrolley

22nd Jul 2008, 11:15

whinger !!!!!!!!!!!!:=

carltonjudd

22nd Jul 2008, 12:49

no negitive feedback. you are joking. not even 4 %. crap deal. no better then last lot. libs may have been better.

Take five

22nd Jul 2008, 13:16

Congratulations to the EXEC for their battle with the dark side. It has been a long and hard process for all with the internal and external pressures coming to bear on them.:ok:
I am greatly pleased that the LAME entry levels low wage has been addressed. It has been a long time coming, where an unlicenced engineer, with little responsibility is on basically the same money.:ok:
There hasn’t been much incentive to become licensed.
The one thing that has not been addressed is the inequity of a quota system, which has been, and will remain our greatest thorn in our side. :\
Why are we unable to access the points which we have earned over the years?:confused:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
BEST CASE GRADE 3 SCENARIO

16th Aug 2006 Grade 3 +3 Service Points

1st Jan 2007 Entry Level Increase Grade 4 +3 Service Points

1st Jan 2007 3% Grade 4 +3 Service Points

16th Aug 2007 1 Service Point Grade 5 +0 Service Points

1st Jan 2008 1.5%+4.15% Grade 6 +0 Service Points

16th Aug 2008 1 Service Point Grade 6 +1 Service Point

1st Jan 2009 3% Grade 6 +1 Service Point

16th Aug 2009 1 Service Point Grade 6 +2 Service Points

1st Jan 2010 3% Grade 6 +3 Service Points

14.65% PLUS 2 GRADES PLUS 1%SUPER INCREASE

TOTAL 3.66%/YEAR +1 GRADE +1% SUPER INCREASE

The other grade you would have got anyway

____________________________________________________________ ___________________

WORST CASE GRADE 11 SCENARIO

16th Aug 2006 Grade 11 + 3 Training Points + 3 Service Points
Unable to Progress to Grade 12 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2007 3% Grade 11 + 3 Training Points + 3 Service Points
Unable to Progress to Grade 12 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions

1st Jan 2008 1.5% + around 4.5% for a Grade
Does the Grade come after the 1.5% or before it?
It makes a difference to the figures.
In other words is it 1.5% of Grade 11 or 1.5% of Grade 12

Assuming Grade 12 is a 4.5% increase

1st Jan 2008 1.5%+4.5% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 4 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2009 3% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 5 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions
1st Jan 2010 3% Grade 12 + 3 Training Points + 5 Service Points
Still unable to progress to Grade 13 Due Service/Training Points Restrictions

15%

TOTAL 3.75% AVERAGE OVER 4 YEARS

Steve says a level is 4.3% for level 13, up to 7.5% for a level 3.

No Service Points will progress you beyond Grade 12:ugh:

Accrued points get carried over, but also get you nowhere.:ugh:

Allowing us to use points which we have earned but not been able to use because of quotas is ridiculous:ugh:

Our Exec have done a great job with what they were faced with, but I’m among the 40% who will vote against this. There you have it.

Sorry about that chief but

“I don’t think it’s good enough.”:\

Redstone

22nd Jul 2008, 13:34

The numbers add up for this "high cost LAME", thanks Murray:ok: the next chapter is going to be interesting to read. There is going to have to be a fall guy for all this (vote not withstanding), for the ill advised, uneducated and reactionary way in which management has handled this.

To my brothers, the people who held the line, I convey my pride and respect. I was pleasently surprised. To those who bent over to continue thier servicing, you can not shrink so small as to avoid the scorn and disdain of the righteous. Those naysayers who chose to preach the MACS poison from the outset must surely now feel like geese, although they will surely accept the remuniration with open arms. you will never be taken seriously again.

Maintain the rage.

NAS1801

22nd Jul 2008, 13:58

There hasn’t been much incentive to become licensed.Take Five, that may be the case for a very small number. It's quite a stupid statement actually.

The opportunity to get a type course has virtually disappeared in many areas. It's not so much a case of no incentive, rather no opportunity.

The incentive to become licenced is career progression. A level 13 AME with a PE will drop $ when obtaining their first licence however, they have simply climbed off the top rung of the AME ladder and onto the bottom rung of the LAME ladder.

Devcon4

22nd Jul 2008, 14:21

I personally will do a lot better than the previous offer. Good on yer Steve and the boys!

It is impossible to keep everyone happy.
This is the first time since this stupid EBA/Grading system was voted in that I will have actually gone forward. I have voted No for every deal since EBA1.

I will vote YES for this deal.:ok: It depends on your situation.

The other consideration is the other Staff who have backed our fight. I know a lot of ground hosties that have been coping s**t constantly. We all need to thanks them regardless of how you feel about the deal. Those girls and guys have been troopers through this.

It has been an ordeal for them. Drop them in a Mudcake for morning smoko or simply say "Thanks". They will appreciate it. Don't forget they ARE getting shafted by management!

Everyone should look at the big picture. We have been trodden on for years and now we have shown unity instead of splitting and choking as we have in the past. Managment will take us seriously and we just might get the next EBA sorted before it is half over.

Funny, it was not long ago it was the Conehead v Greasers and hangers Morts v Terminal Coits! Ha! Now we are as one. It's great! QF have in one motion buggered engineering and fixed it in one motion. Ironic isn't it.

Think carefully boys and girls. Your vote counts.

Devcon4 :E

Jets on

22nd Jul 2008, 14:25

I think it is fair to say that everybody wants fair remuneration for what they are qualified for and for what they do. But there should be a line that says that’s it your capped out. How high an earning do LAME’s think is appropriate. Some appear to be heading to the CEO mindset of how much remuneration they should have. Rember our complants of GD’s package for looking after a company of 36,000 staff which is so astronomical to those running the country! Would some like level 20?
In the old days, yeah I’m an oldie, you were happy to still be trained and kept up with the latest and greatest. If you lost a tail through retiring types the company was abliged to retrain you. This ideal allowed you to keep current and also importantly your pay, instead of losing it through attrition of CPI increases. Today I feel some of us at those lofty heights are complaining shelfishly. I know members complain that they didn’t vote in the grading system but still we ALL benefit from service points that gives us a level we would never have achieved under the old system. I myself would like to see new blood brought into the ALAEA membership and instead of levels going up higher than they are, the company persuaded to spend that money on training new LAMEs and AMEs , and that we the older ones have someone to transfer our skills and knowledge to, to keep the aviation maintenance career sustainable in Australia.

QF94

22nd Jul 2008, 14:27

Foremost, thank you Exec for your tireless efforts. A big thank you to the membership for the show of solidarity.

Now my big concern - Our management will now go full steam ahead with all their ludicrous initiatives and drive parts of our 'usual' business to the ground.

One way or another, they will fashion out savings to pay for our reasonable, fair and just pay claim and drive us to the wall.

Think rosters, redundancies, customer payments, overtime etc etc etc.

Same management, hell bent on destruction.

Again, will patiently wait by the riverbank.

Clipped, whichever way this EBA went, the fuse has been set, and the eventual shutdown of maintenance within QF is inevitable. The ball was set rolling in 2005 with the shutdown of HM in SYD, and went to the "overflow" centre in AVV. Now that QF has set up a joint MRO in Malaysia, which is supposedly for "overflow" work, we will see the eventual demise of AVV. One only has to look at the various places QF is now getting its work done where they have set up maintenance facilities.

The failure of the APA bid last year hastened the actions we have seen from late last year till now. As SP stated in his letter, QF had a massive "fighting fund" to break us one way or another. The revenue lost and damage to our reputation was a consequence QF management was prepared to wear. The financial loss incurred over the last few months was far greater than the 5% we were asking for, and possibly the wage cost (approx $360 million) across the company that GD was complaining about.

There was an article in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald where GD stated that in 10 years time, QANTAS will still be around, but there won't be so many aircraft flying the QANTAS colours. The rest will be flying the colours of Jeffstar.

Sad but true, but at least we showed our resolve to the company that we aren't the easy pushovers they took us for.

Nasty Piece of Work

22nd Jul 2008, 15:05

CarltonJudd (stupid fkg name anyway) and Take five - Take a good hard look in the mirror at yourselves both your posts appear selfish and arrogant
I see a minimum of 4% for ALL per year, I'm not happy as it's not 5% but I'm not among the individuals spending countless and it appears (from your posts) thankless hours of their OWN time bettering our young men and women.
Gotta love someone who takes potshots in an anonymous forum but is too p!ssweak to stand for office.
To both of you I ask did you vote this system in ?, reap the rewards and now complain because you have reached the point that has been fkg some people (almost half our membership) over for five to ten years !

In the end whether you vote for it or against it there will always be consequences
Clipped you have often shot from the hip, good to see you are willing to give credit where credit is due

division1

22nd Jul 2008, 20:19

Jets on,
I know members complain that they didn’t vote in the grading system
but still we ALL benefit from service points that gives us a level we
would never have achieved under the old system.

How did you figure that Jetson, i'm pretty sure the service point
never got me into another grade. Service point = nil benefit for me.
I didn't vote the grading system in, if i recall it was the mighty numbers
of phase check greasers at the 1500hs shift change that got it over the line.

Sunfish

22nd Jul 2008, 20:24

QF94:

Clipped, whichever way this EBA went, the fuse has been set, and the eventual shutdown of maintenance within QF is inevitable. The ball was set rolling in 2005 with the shutdown of HM in SYD, and went to the "overflow" centre in AVV. Now that QF has set up a joint MRO in Malaysia, which is supposedly for "overflow" work, we will see the eventual demise of AVV. One only has to look at the various places QF is now getting its work done where they have set up maintenance facilities.

The failure of the APA bid last year hastened the actions we have seen from late last year till now. As SP stated in his letter, QF had a massive "fighting fund" to break us one way or another. The revenue lost and damage to our reputation was a consequence QF management was prepared to wear. The financial loss incurred over the last few months was far greater than the 5% we were asking for, and possibly the wage cost (approx $360 million) across the company that GD was complaining about.

There was an article in Saturday's Sydney Morning Herald where GD stated that in 10 years time, QANTAS will still be around, but there won't be so many aircraft flying the QANTAS colours. The rest will be flying the colours of Jeffstar.

Sad but true, but at least we showed our resolve to the company that we aren't the easy pushovers they took us for.

The eventual shutdown of maintenance at QF is NOT inevitable. Just ask anyone who has EVER had a joint venture in Asia how it has panned out.

Your ENTIRE argument rests on the assumption that Asia is always going to be a financially advantageous location to do stuff, which, I assure you, is not a safe assumption.

By moving operations overseas, you are exposing yourself to three additional sources of risk for your business. The first is sovereign risk - which is about the attitude of the Government in the designated country towards your country and their attitude to one of their companies doing work for you.

The second is the business risk associated with relying on an overseas facility. This is about what happens to you if they go belly up. This can be ameliorated if there are numerous suppliers to choose from, so that any failure can be quickly fixed by substitution.

The Third is commercial risk - which is about competition and your ability to choose another supplier if you believe you are being gouged.

These risks must be managed if you are to succeed in outsourcing, and there are an infinite number of ways you can screw it up.

Furthermore, QF has just shown via the ALEA EBA process that it is unable to manage risk - specifically the risk associated with your decision to ban O/T.

So here's one for you QF 94, what happens to QF when all those little guys in your Malaysian MRO decide to have their little EBA session? You all ready know the answer - QF is F***ed.

Don't believe the bull**** about Australia being expensive either. As Asian living standards rise, their cost advantage disappears.

And don't discount the fact that one advantage of overseas outsourcing is all those lovely business trips for senior management - and no, I'm not joking. One senior QF manager, with a wife and two kids in Sydney, regularly "stays overnight" with a female acquaintance of mine as he does his "rounds" of various bases each month.:yuk: