The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2. [Archive] - Page 9

Bambe

22nd Jul 2008, 13:07

Bonastle, simply e-mail them when you are ready. It has to be well written but no need to write a novel.
Just tell them you were asked to come back in 6 months, that you are ready and would like to get a date for you reassessment.
Kindest regards and blablabla....

I'd like to clarify some points.
First of all, I've never said that CTC's unsecured loan was dead! I had a chat with one of CTC chief training captain so he's more than aware of what's going one at the top of the top... He simply said that I should hurry getting in the schemes because the unsecured loan may become soon a secure loan...

Next, some of you have to realised that if easyJet pays you 1000 tax free pounds every months on top of your basic (28 000 pounds a year), most of the other partners (including BA) simply pay you a first officer salary (about 35 000 GROSS) and that you have to pay around 1000-1200 a months back to the bank for the first 7 years of employment..Cityjet being the worst.

EVERYBODY will pay, CTC is awesome because of its financial structure, its first class training, its "free type rating" and finally its connections with the airline industry....AND THAT IS IT.
Stop dreaming guys, those who go for easyJet will fly the first 6 months FOR FREE without any guarantee of securing a job after.

Consider your training cost as an investment, 60 000 pounds is nothing compare to the life style you'll get within 10 years.
Whish you (and me by the way
:)) the best of luck.

Bambe

PAJ

22nd Jul 2008, 17:37

The Training Captain you spoke was pretty accurate. HSBC provide an innovative funding solution that CTC help to secure. I do think the days of the £60k + £10k living costs is numbered. I know that it is one of CTC's key concerns too.

Pilot RatBoy

23rd Jul 2008, 08:11

bonalste (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/249366-bonalste), i just rang the selection team a few weeks before my 6 months were up saying that my time to re-apply was coming and krissie gave me an assessment date there and then! i'm sure an email would work just as well, they really are not assessing how you ask to re-apply!

--break break--

There is a small financial advantage in the way cadets are paid £1k a month to pay the loan, because that is tax free. So instead of a £36k salary, i will pay tax on £24k and get £12k 'free' to pay my loan off.

In my own opinion I feel like I am paying for my own training and not being sponsored, although I am getting a hell of alot for my £60k! Not that I actually care whether it's classed as sponsored or otherwise, it's getting me into the right-hand seat of a jet! :ok:

bonalste

23rd Jul 2008, 14:42

Many thanks guys, I really appreciate your help. :)

antonov225

23rd Jul 2008, 22:41

Hi all, I'm delighted to say that I've passed stage 3 and have been invited to stage 4 soon. Thanks for all the advice to date but any advice on stage 4? I've had a little sim experience in a generic motion simulator but not an airliner sim. Any pointers etc would be appreciated but if all I can do is turn up and do it then that's what I'll do. Cheers

dragonfly6

24th Jul 2008, 13:02

i thik you do it on the 73 sims now..??

best advice i can say is just use the exact power settings and pitch datums that they give you and if they dont give you any ask for them. Make small changes at a time and wait to see what that does first. God im begging to sound like an instructor!

I reckon sim time before hand would be beneficial but im not sure how much an hour in a sim costs these days...?

akindofmagic

24th Jul 2008, 14:01

As much as it pains me, I must disagree with m'learned friend, dragonfly6.
I don't think there's much, if anything, to be gained by doing an hour in a sim before CTC phase 4. It would be, in my opinion, an unnecessary expense.
The instructors at phase 4 are, as far as I know, looking for "trainability" and capacity. If you can show that you are willing to learn, and that you have the ability to absorb information in an unfamiliar setting, you'll be fine.

Fancy going to Furnace dragonfly6? See you there in five :P

dragonfly6

24th Jul 2008, 14:46

nobody cares what you think. Anyway shouldnt you be at work? Im emailing your boss.:=:)

Kerosine

14th Aug 2008, 10:00

It's very quiet here, maybe the economic downturn has affected the CTC thread too :uhoh:

Jordie1983

15th Aug 2008, 06:30

I'm still here Dave!!

RAF_Techie101

15th Aug 2008, 07:13

And I'm off to the Gulf in a week, sticking my application in to CTC when I get back in a few months, and did my first solo flight yesterday... :D

All the 9's

15th Aug 2008, 17:06

Hello all,

I have trawled through this thread in detail, but I have'nt come across any detailed information regarding the group exercises CTC set at stage 3. I was wandering if anybody could give me a brief insight into what team building exercises CTC employ?

Regards,

All the 9's

jpunteney

15th Aug 2008, 17:35

For the group exercises, when I went along there were 2 tasks to do. The first one involved 6 people standing in 2 rows of 3 facing each other, with your hands out. The assessor places a cane across all of your index fingers and you have to place the cane on the ground in 10 minutes. Sounds easy doesn't it. Have fun with this one!

The next one is a discussion exercise where you have to form your own decision, present them to the rest of the group then work on a group decision. I won't tell you the scenario as it might change from time to time, and also it takes away some of the point of the exercise.

Basically, I think the assessors are looking to see someone who can work effectively as a team, who doesn't dominate anyone and not let anyoe have a shot of contributing, but at the same time, someone who can lead a team and help them bring out the best and achieve what is required in the exercise.

All the best! :ok:

Kerosine

21st Aug 2008, 16:00

Insurance costs have now gone up AGAIN in to £1313!! FFS! :mad::mad:

Apologies for the outburst but my budget for the next 2 months is slowly being blown to pieces :suspect:

mlowe

24th Aug 2008, 13:01

Any one got details of what Phase 4 may have in sotre???

Cant find much info.

Preparing for the final push...

Mikey

lo0ney

24th Aug 2008, 13:58

Mikey, for phase 4 you spend about 50 mins in a 733 simulator with a training captain, follow his instructions (fly at x altitude, turn onto x heading...) He'll throw some mental arithmetic questions out there as well, be ready for that. You should get a phone call a few days before telling you everything you need to know.

I'd like to ask any CTC cadets that have recently finished training what kind of problems they've had getting jobs, how long it's taken, etc. Do you think CTC will be able to keep up its 100% placement rate despite the downturn? I've passed selection but everyone seems to be saying that this is the worst time to be starting an integrated course.

Kerosine

24th Aug 2008, 14:51

12-18 months ago may have been the worst time to start training.

Bambe

24th Aug 2008, 15:39

Yes, it's surely not a good time for pilot employment but I prefer waiting 6 months (or even more) working as a dispatcher to pay back my loan and being ready for any opportunity than waiting again and again before starting a training...
CTC is from the best, I don't wory too much!

And for the phase 4, I have never had any maths questions, some did, I think it's a bit strange.
Focus on your attitude, no big moves only small corrections. Practise on your flight sim, pull when turning more than 15 degres and even harder when steep turning....

Try to be as accurate as possible, talk to your instructor after each turn saying what you did good and bad, and most of all (I know it's hard!!!), show him you're enjoying the ride.....

Good luck

Kerosine

24th Aug 2008, 18:46

There are a couple of sim assesors, they have different approaches, not to say one is better than the other of course.

99jolegg

26th Aug 2008, 14:24

Spaces for the HSBC interiew are full apparently. HSBC won't be offering the loan from this point onwards even if you're on a course for the future and are going through the paperwork to get it all organised. :suspect:

Vbells

26th Aug 2008, 15:59

When you say they won't be offering the loan from this point onwards do you mean they won't be offering it to anyone at all? Does that mean that there is no longer a funding option for the terminally skint like myself? :confused:

Kerosine

26th Aug 2008, 16:03

Sounds like bad news.

99jolegg please clarify/expand as you have just broken (almost) the worst news possible for potential cadets!

Captain NowThen

26th Aug 2008, 20:46

I have been wondering, during research, how come HSBC were still offering a loan like this, given the current state of the economy and credit crunch etc when everyone else is battoning down the hatches.

I failed at stage 3 of the cityjet wings scheme recently. So if I'd passed and passed the sim check, I would have not been able to get the bond? If it's true about HSBC, surely places like CTC and OAA would have to stop their schemes that rely on the loan?

Sounds like the dream is on even more of hold. Back to FSX then..... :sad:

Kerosine

26th Aug 2008, 21:48

If it's true about HSBC, surely places like CTC and OAA would have to stop their schemes that rely on the loan?

OAA don't have the kind of setup that CTC [used to?] have. CTC is the ONLY place you could get the cash without signing away grandmas/parents/random persons house as security. CTC do secure 30K, so as far as HSBC are concerned the total sum is partially secured.

If this goes CTC will still remain one the best JAA FTOs in the world with one of the highest employment rates, it just won't have the added bonus of free money (ahem:E:rolleyes:), you will have to find the cash yourself.

bonalste

27th Aug 2008, 15:46

Well, I've just been informed that my unsecured loan for £77,000 has been approved with HSBC Southampton. Woohoo! £111,000 after interest... :yuk:

When I was at the bank on Friday, I was advised that, from today (Wednesday 27th) the loan structure will be changing. They said that it didn't necessarily mean that the loan will no-longer be available, but that it may be that they further restrict the number of loans they provide (I know that before now they limited it to people living in the UK for the last 3 years), they may start performing a credit check (when I went on Friday they didn't do one of these, just a check of my spending habits), they may increase interest rates or, well, they might start asking for security. Are you completely certain that they are now not offering the unsecured loan full-stop?

watchmysix

27th Aug 2008, 17:15

Can anyone give me a more detailed time line and structure for the wings course during the 18 months after initially arriving in NZ?

I know about the 17 weeks for the first stage (does a valid PPL effect this?), but what happens next? Where do the ground school exams, CPL, IR etc fit in and how long can I expect each stage to take?

Planned time frames vs. realistic would also be useful.

Cheers WMS.

Kerosine

27th Aug 2008, 18:15

Typed (laboriously!) from the Training Programme schedule:

Phase 1: Foundation - 17 weeks

Flying - Up to 72 hours
Groundschool - 400 hours

Phase 2: Visual Flying Phase - 13 weeks

Single Engine - 28.6 hours
Multi Engine - 16.5 hours
Sim - 5.5 hours
Groundschool/CPL test - 400 hours

Phase 3: ATPLs - 3 weeks

Bristol Groundschool - 70 hours
Exams - 8 subjects

Phase 4: Instrument flying - 12 weeks

Twins - 31 hours
Sim - 24 hours
Groundschool - 347 hours

Phase 5: ATPLs - 5 weeks

Bristol Groundschool - 70
Exams - 6 subjects

Phase 6: IR - 9 weeks

Twins - 15 hours
Sim - 23 hours

Phase 7: Airline Qualification Course - 3 weeks

Classroom - 20 hours
Jet sim - 16 hours
Advanced Handling (MCC) - 1 week

Phase 8: TR - 9 weeks

Type training specified by airline

watchmysix

27th Aug 2008, 22:45

Thanks very much for the effort - an extremely well presented answer.

Other than for Bristol GS are there any other breaks when you can return to the UK e.g. between the first two phases?

Also is the first IR phase in NZ or Bournemouth?

With a valid PPL is the first 17 week phase reduced?

mattkcraven

28th Aug 2008, 01:19

You get time off before and after each bristol goundschool stint and they are the only times you return to the UK before starting stage 6 at Bournemouth. So thats stages 1, 2 & 4 which take place at Hamilton. If you have a valid PPL then you would normally be offered the short course foundation as well, now then back to the Met study.........:8

99jolegg

28th Aug 2008, 08:54

The application for loans has been extended, not sure how long by, possibly 1 month.

RAF_Techie101

28th Aug 2008, 11:52

So is the 111 grand still paid off over 7 years at an increased rate? Or does the 1000 squid a month still stand, just over a LOT longer...?

Kerosine

28th Aug 2008, 11:59

Who knows... Does anyone have any hard facts on any of this?

Salaries for newly qualified FOs?

Repayment structures?

Whether repayments are taxed or from source?

Current employment stats?

Finance available from HSBC?

We could do with someone on the other end (just finished the course) or CTC to tell us what the flip is going on and where we stand. It's naive to make assumptions on how much we will get paid, or how we will be able to afford to live with the repayments etc without fact. It's hit me lately that none of us actually know the answers (unless someone's just been keeping quiet!?), the last page or so has been pure speculation.

I will do some digging and get back to you all.

RAF_Techie101

28th Aug 2008, 12:05

Much appreciated kerosine. As much as I'd love to do this, I'm not sure 111 grand's worth of debt is worth it... The 90-odd I orignially thought it was according to here and the CTC website (I think) was jsut about managable in the long run, but 111 is just a horrendous amount to be paying back, even if it is my dream job...

bonalste

28th Aug 2008, 12:32

To be honest, it's not entirely heresay that's beign stated on here. A quick google for easyjet gave me the following:

UK Contracts - Salary & Benefits - Pilot Careers - Careers in the Air - easyJet Careers (http://www.easyjetcareers.com/flight-crew-careers/pilot-careers/salary-and-benefits/uk-contracts.asp)

Reading the website explains the salaries. It's not quite as simple as 'you get paid x amount'. Give it a gander, it's quite interesting. Obviously easyJet is just an example, but I'd say it's pretty similar across the board and, considering that easyJet are the primary employer thus far, I'd look to them as the main example to go on.

In addition, I recall reading here soem time ago where a current cadet with one of the partners displayed his bank balance details. The figure that he showed for repayments by the airline came in at over £1000 per month, which suggests several things:

There is no tax paid on the £12,000 which goes into the bank account (with easyJet - obviously with BA, getting paid a full FO salary, tax will come out, which is why easyJet is possibly a better short-term investment though I have no idea on the salary increases expected from the respetive organisations, so BA may be more appropriate long-term financially until year 7).
The figure is not capped at £12,000. I do not know the details, of course, but I would assume that this is either done for tax purposes, to reduce the payment schedule or to meet the loan repayments including interest.Either way, £111,000 is a huge amount of money. The real worry with this is if you get placed into the hold pool and need to make repayments yourself for these months. I am personally saving around £6,000 and will be living like a troll in order to make sure that I have enough saved up to cover me for at least a few months, enough for me to acquire another job in the meantime. Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance, afterall, and you don't want to go down the route of being on the hold pool with no plan how to make the £1350 per month repayments!

99jolegg

28th Aug 2008, 13:11

Why don't CTC have a username here? :rolleyes:

When I was at selection in July, current CTCers were talking about people finishing the course 6 months before them with no job at the moment but possibly being taken by EZY in October as they were requiring a job lot of cadets then. Don't know whether this still stands. In my interview I asked if there was a hold pool of cadets building - she was unsure and didn't confirm or deny.

I always thought that the £12,000 less salary a year was given in monthly stages of £1000 tax free for all partner airlines, as this was the arrangement CTC had with them. I could well be wrong; bonalste suggests otherwise.

Employment is slow (obviously) but I got the feeling (from CTCers and assessment team) that it is more a case of when they get a job, rather than if. Obviously, that doesn't hold much water when you have HSBC chasing you for money owed but it provides a ray of light at the end of the tunnel...

Finance from HSBC was suspended (read stopped if you like) from the end of August. The bank themselves said that, and CTC too - CTC provided the warning in an email recently which you'll have. When I spoke to HSBC on the phone I clearly asked "so HSBC are doing nothing for CTC in terms of finance after the end of August?". The lady replied "sorry, no". At that point, she was unaware that somebody in the depth of decision making at HSBC had decided to extend applications for supposedly (according to CTC) one month (September). According to CTC, this is why they are filling courses rapidly (must be filling April or May 09 by now) so that they can get the finance approved, so long as they get the interview before the end of play.

When I rang HSBC for an interview for the loan, and was told, "really sorry, we're fully booked for interviews until the end of August now" (when the loan was supposedly stopping) I rang CTC to find out how I'm supposed to afford the course and was told that they'd look into it and talk to finance and see if the rumour about extension until September is true. Meanwhile, I was to approach other banks for a secured loan. Of course CTC will do (are doing) their best to secure funding for cadets if HSBC remove the unsecured option for a while.

Who knows what will happen, a bit like fortune telling really.

PAJ

28th Aug 2008, 13:28

Each airline has a different salary structure for cadets. EZ is the most often cited as they have always been the largest recruiter of Wings cadets, and the strucure from them is basically a salary (approx. £26k) with flight pay of £14.73 per sector, and then £1000 per month tax free to cover loan repayments. It's a net of around the £42k mark starting. Bear in mind that the bond repayments do cost more than the £1000 pm given, and it's all dependent on the current interet rate. Other airlines have similar repayment structures with a tax free bond repayment on top of salary and flight pay. Airlines such as the likes of BA do not give you a tax free bond repayment, but instead you go on the Direct Entry salary scale. There is not that much between each of the airline packages, and there are other benefits offered.

bonalste

28th Aug 2008, 13:54

Hmm, are you sure it's only £1000? I found the post to which I referred:

Account Statement showing Bond Repayments (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-59.html#post3790708)

This shows a monthly payment of £1064, which gives a £90,000 repayment over 7 years. As I say, I'm not sure on the circumstances of this but they were all in lump payments, suggesting hat it came directly from the airline (rather than the person in question paying back extra off his own back).

Thoughts?

Kerosine

28th Aug 2008, 14:04

salary (approx. £26k) with flight pay of £14.73 per sector, and then £1000 per month tax free to cover loan repayments

I seriously hope this is the case, it's much better than I anticipated! I know you're still in training PAJ so have you had this confirmed by someone?

gyni

28th Aug 2008, 14:43

PAJ has it spot on for ezy cadets. The £1000 is included in your net take home and the HSBC loan payment is then serviced directly from your bank account.

TomH1408

28th Aug 2008, 15:37

How much do you need for the wings scheme?

I know you need the £60,000 for the bond itself I only thought you needed living expenses on top of that taking it to £70,000 ish. What am I missing that people are talking about £111,000 and £90,000 loans? I understand the need to support yourself if you go into the holding pool but surely thats not adding £30,000 to the loan?

Im guessing I have been misinformed at some point. Please enlighten me!

bonalste

28th Aug 2008, 15:53

Hi Tom,

I'll break it down:

£60,000 = CTC Wings Course Payment
£10,000 = Living Expenses
£7,000 = CTC Wings Foundation Course Payment
£34,000 = Interest on all of the aboveWhich pans out at a healthy £111,000.

PAJ

28th Aug 2008, 15:58

When you reach a relevant stage of trianing Kerosine, CTC send out an airline handbook which details all the relevant figures. I also know a few guys out the other side of the course who can confirm the numbers. I don't have it detailed anywhere that cadets are paid more than £1000 per month for bond repayments. I would need to delve through my finances a bit but I am expecting to be making bond repayments of around £1100 per month, so I will have to find a small percentage out of my salary to cover the outstanding amount. I do stand to be corrected though.

TomH1408, the larger numbers you are reading about take into account interest. HSBC charge about 2.5% above variable BoE base interest rate for the privilege of the unsecured loan which over 7 years mounts up considerably.

TomH1408

28th Aug 2008, 15:59

Cheers bonalste

I see that the high figures everyone is talking about includes the interest you will have to pay back as well. i was worried people were having to take out £110,000 loans in the first place and then end up paying back £160,000 or so in the end!

And cheers PAJ!

Monkeyboy748

28th Aug 2008, 16:44

This may be a stupid question, but can you not pay back more than just £1000 (approx) a month, hense reducing the cost of the loan in the long run?

99jolegg

28th Aug 2008, 18:14

Yes you can, it just depends on how much you will need for living expenses etc.

bjkeates

28th Aug 2008, 23:20

I don't know where that rumour of 10 grand for living expenses has come in, but unless you're planning to build yourself your very own gold-plated room to live in at Clearways then I'd say you could knock that down by at least a few thousand. I know HSBC have always offered £5k/year, but you don't have to take it - you can take less if you want to.

Having said that - to add to the figures posted by bonalste, don't forget to add insurance (which, according to these forums, has now rocketed to over 1300 quid, more than double what it was two years ago) and your class 1 medical (£330ish last time I checked).

Kerosine

29th Aug 2008, 01:47

I've given a rough guide below for what I've spent so far:

Application fee: £137
New suit: £150
Travel Phase 2/3: £55
Hotel Phase 2/3: £50
Travel Phase 4: £40
Travel to arrange loan: £35
BASIC disclosure: £20
Medical: £317
Tavel to medical: £35
Insurance: £1300
Knowing where I'm going in November... priceless :ok:

While expenditure differs from one to the next, the above gives an idea of how much it can all cost before you even get there. I look to have spent over £2200 on getting to where I am now; just to visa to do now!

I don't know where that rumour of 10 grand for living expenses has come in, but unless you're planning to build yourself your very own gold-plated room to live in at Clearways then I'd say you could knock that down by at least a few thousand. I know HSBC have always offered £5k/year, but you don't have to take it - you can take less if you want to.

I decided to go for the whole amount as I want as much breathing space as possible when I'm out there. For the amount I'll be paying back, the extra interest is worth paying to reduce the risk of running out of cash in NZ.
Anyway if I have a surplus I'm sure I'll find something to spend it on!

Looking at the above post makes me worry about how little I'm worrying about how much I'm spending haha :p

karlburgess

29th Aug 2008, 13:02

I'm still a long way off from reaching the fATPL as I have not even had my phase 2 yet (2nd of sep). I think I am going to start playing the lottery again, try to win big and then have no worries about all these finances at all...I can dream.

I recently said to my mum. "If I get on the course, would you mind me putting the loan up against the house?" I wasn't to popular and her response was...."hahahah your kidding right?" At the moment the dream is getting further and further away.

I've been told that some people in NZ had got part time jobs, how true is this? Its a brilliant idea!

I've also been getting a little confused. I thought you only started repaying the bond once you started earning. From what I can gather on this thread is that once your training is complete you have to start paying back the £££ each month!!! Really puts me in a bad situation at the mo. However I remember reading on the CTC FAQ that the last 6months of training in the UK you are given £1000/m. Is this for living allowances etc or to do what you want with it? could be a massive life saver to some people, as they could use it to pay some of the bond balance off.

Right, back to revision for me, been on this forum for about 2.5 hours now. Wish me luck for phase 2 and maybe 3!

Karl :ok:

Kerosine

29th Aug 2008, 13:23

I've also been getting a little confused. I thought you only started repaying the bond once you started earning. From what I can gather on this thread is that once your training is complete you have to start paying back the £££ each month!!! Really puts me in a bad situation at the mo. However I remember reading on the CTC FAQ that the last 6months of training in the UK you are given £1000/m. Is this for living allowances etc or to do what you want with it? could be a massive life saver to some people, as they could use it to pay some of the bond balance off.
You start to pay back your loan 2 years after starting the course regardless of job status. For the last 6 months of that 2 years you are paid around £1000 a month to cover living expenses while training. I'm someone in this position can correct me if any of that is incorrect.

I've been told that some people in NZ had got part time jobs, how true is this? Its a brilliant idea!
I remember this idea was floated a while back and apparently availability of time for a job can be a problem.

SA242

29th Aug 2008, 13:55

You are not paid 1000 quid for the last 6 months at all.... Once you have a type rating with an airline you are given I think 500 quid a month for the duration of the type-rating and then are paid roughly 1000quid/month although this varies down to a lower sum for some airlines for the first 6 months on the actual line before you are permanently employed with that airline. If/when you get a permanent contract then you are on a salary and no longer part of ctc.

bjkeates

29th Aug 2008, 14:26

Slight correction to the previous post - it's 500 quid full stop for the duration of the TR, not 500 quid a month. Then £1k/month for 6 months when you're on the line.

akindofmagic

29th Aug 2008, 14:55

With regard to people getting part time jobs in New Zealand: While I was out there, noone had a job. I don't see how you'd be able to hold down a job (even part time) with the variable nature of the flying schedule. I'm not saying that it would be impossible: I just don't see how it would be workable, and I don't know how CTC would view it.

pre3mhjt

29th Aug 2008, 20:58

Just my two pence worth if you're interested boys and girls, as I notice some of the old boys haven’t been on recently (obviously far too busy flying shiny new jets!)

As a recent "graduate" of the wings programme, and one of the lucky last few who have been offered a flying position since about April, I am now fully immersed in the World's favourite airline. The quotes from BJK refer to repayments at a certain orange operator and I thought I'd better just remind you that, for legal reasons, other employers are/may be available!

Due to the way BA are unionised they will not accept a separate pay scale for cadets and therefore you will be invited to join as a self sponsored pilot (SSP). You will then forego your bond to APL and the resulting repayments to HSBC will have to be entirely covered by yourself after taxable income.

So.....basic SSP salary in year 1 is around £31000 and this is taxed in the usual way. Flight pay is then awarded at around £11 per flight hour, £2 something per duty hour and £5/10 depending on the nature of your overnight (UK or abroad); this will equate to appox. £12-15k per year and is taxed at 18%. The basic salary then increases £6000 per year until year 3 when the SSP scale merges with the DEP scale and everyone’s a winner....? Now depending on your own situation (student loan, mortgage, child benefits etc) you can work out what you would have left.

The 2 loans from HSBC are for £64400 (for the foundation and cadet course) and £10000 (for living expenses) they are to be repaid over 84 months and will track 2.75% above the BoE base rate. A combined repayment of the two will cost approx £1260 per month. Early repayment is an option, but bewares as the clause that covers that situation does invoke various financial penalties that make it seemingly unwise to do so.

As for the suggestion that the living expenses loan does not need to be taken in full or that you will struggle to spend it in NZ....I'd be more concerned with keeping as much as possible available for those long, cold days spent in the pool at the other end of training in today’s' climate. Remember, you don't accumulate interest on any of the amounts until they are drawn down and this is done over a period of roughly 18 months.

Good luck to all who decide to apply or who are in training, it really is worth it when you see the light at the end of the tunnel...Here's hoping someone turns it back on soon eh?

Pre3

The African Dude

29th Aug 2008, 21:08

Just as a side note - the student visa doesn't allow you to work in New Zealand (I don't think).

Geetea

29th Aug 2008, 23:31

As people have already said, the flying schedual would make it very difficult to hold down a job...and it does say on my visa (as Im sure it says on everyone else)

"The holder shall not undertake employment in NZ"

Don't think it can get any clearer than that!

karlburgess

30th Aug 2008, 08:16

awesome, thanks for clearing some of my questions up pre3mhjt and also congrats for making it as a pilot.

Miss_Cassutt

31st Aug 2008, 06:57

Hey guys,

I was just wondering....I have passed all the stages at CTC, except for stage 4 which I failed (but I will take it again middle of October). At the same time, I have applied at Netjets and I have been asked to come for the stage 2 selection.

I am a bit concerned about the Compass tests, maths & physics tests.

Does anyone know if the compass tests and maths are similar between Netjets /CTC ? can I expect something more or less similar?

It would be great to talk to someone who has pass these tests.

Thanks.

Lydia

pre3mhjt

31st Aug 2008, 09:04

I was referring to CTC placements. The last guys to be offered "traditional" cadet contracts went to eJ Swiss in April/May time; apart from that only 3/4 others have been taken on by BA as SSPs and everyone else is in the pool (generally speaking). Industry wide placements are far outside of my scope of expertise, but I'm sure if you went to the far east you'd find lots of people being offered jobs.

The airlines, especially the charters (and therefore CTC), traditionally have a slow period in recruitment terms this time of year. The problem this year is that it’s being exacerbated by the economic conditions and looks worse because CTC have never had such big courses rapidly filling the hold pool.

burty83

31st Aug 2008, 10:30

Despite the world's current climate, BA as far as I know were still recruiting SSPs for the Airbus. There are a few more CTC students in the company now which is good to see as it was always generally Oxford SSPs who went through the system with BA. However, more CTC students are being put forward now. You do start on an SSP scale but this rapidly increases and continues to increase year on year. Once you start flying you can expect an extra £1200 a month allowances. I'd say it's simply the first 3-4 months you really have to plan carefully for when it comes to money. After 4-5 years the world is your oyster and you will probably have the option to bid to move onto the 747, 777 or A380.

With regards to the part time work idea I think as the holder of a student visa you're allowed to work 15 hours a week. Personally I think it's pretty foolish to comprimise the quality of your education in NZ for the sakes of a bit more spending money in NZ. Part time work in NZ comes in at around £4 an hour as that's the minimum wage out there. I'd say take the extra dough from HSBC and just accept you'll be paying a few extra pounds a month once you start paying back your loan.

burty83

31st Aug 2008, 10:39

If you wanted to reduce the £10,000!!! (I couldn't find a Harrods food hall in NZ myself) throughout the course you can always just find the person most willing to pick you up from town and then tell you off when you misbehave in the back of the minibus. Turn it up!!!!

bjkeates

1st Sep 2008, 16:52

you can always just find the person most willing to pick you up from town and then tell you off when you misbehave in the back of the minibus. Turn it up!!!!

Well that willing person most probably thought that since they had come out to pick you up at silly hours of the evening out of the goodness of their heart, then they might as well attempt to get you home in one piece...

:E

FeetUpHeadDown

3rd Sep 2008, 08:13

In reply to the person who posted the specimen Training Schedule, I believe it is necessary to advise would-be cadets of some of the harsh realities of the CTC Schedule.

Not a single Integrated CP has met the training schedule that has been recently posted here. There are multiple reasons for this as follows:

1) Katana failures and groundings reduced the single-engine fleet and caused flying backlogs that affected a lot of CPs.
2) Alpha production was very slow to deliver all 11/12 aircraft, and they went bust around April without delivering the whole lot. Cessnas were rented to cover this and there was a reasonable sized single engine fleet with alpha and c-172s.
3) The requirements of the Integrated course have presented a number of constraints and bottlenecks that have only been dealt with when they hit e.g. scheduling conflicts between groundschool attendance and flying.
4) Twinstar reliability and the liquidation of Thielert resulted in a big reduction of Twinstars and the roping in of the Seminole for VFR Twin training to CPL for some cadets, including earlier modular guys who returned to NZ for a third time to do CPL on the Sems.
5) Bottle-necking on the Twins for integrated courses resulting from insufficient numbers of JAA approved VFR/IR instructors and the relatively long lead times involved in getting instructors through JAA standards to meet JAA Integrated training requirements, along with Tech and weather issues.
6) The wettest winter on recent record has hit everyone and reduced the number of flying days by a huge amount.
7) The magical black box of scheduling/priority that we all know and love.

There are other factors/reasons as well, but to be clear at worst there are people on the integrated scheme who have been here for 18 months. Others are averaging about 15-16 months. This is compared to the 11 - 12 months we were advised it would take to complete NZ. Another guy will have been here for more than 18 months.

Also, the 18-monthers have not completed the NZ syllabus and will have to complete those flights in the UK i.e. despite being here for 50% longer they still haven't finished the 12 month syllabus.

This is also the likely case for CP51 and perhaps CP52.

Phase 1 exam dates are pretty much fixed and everyone goes to Bristol pretty much as planned due to flying progress being irrelevant to those dates.

Phase 2 Bristol dates have been moved around a lot for various courses because of the slow progress made by many CPs. Some people are doing all of Bournemouth then their exams at the end. Others are leaving NZ, travelling home only to have to do Bristol 36 hours after arriving in the UK.

I don't think any integrated cadet has gone through the system on dates, except two guys who have managed to get forward-coursed.

People have been allowed to choose modular or integrated, and at least one course has been made to go modular.

In hindsight, going modular at CTC is probably the best option because you get through the flying quicker, you have access to more instructors, and you seem to spend the least amount of time in NZ. Plus CTC have been doing modular longer than integrated and you don't need to attend groundschool. Be clear too that going modular makes zero difference to your chances of airline placement with CTC. The only reason they went to Integrated was to satisfy BA, but even they have now officially said that they will (, have and are) taking modular cadets. Apparently one day they will only accept integrated but not yet. Everyone knows that a CTC modular course is delivered as though it were integrated. When cadets arrive out here they don't know enough about the system and people end up believing that integrated is "best". It's not it's just got different challenges to delivery. At least with modular you get a PPL, you can take your mates flying on your solos, and you could in theory rent the Twinstar on your own. Integrated people can't do anything except the syllabus flights. Integrated guys don't get any licenses until right at the end once your exams and IR test is done. Modular guys can enjoy PPL privileges in NZ and do wet hires of Alphas and Cessnas from Waikato aeroclub for $180ish per air hour. It's therefore perfectly possible to book some time off, hire a plane between four of you then sod off to the south island and it really won't cost you that much.

Be smart and expect to be here for 18 months and budget accordingly. You won't therefore run out of cash and be disappointed when your dates slide back. Do the maths and realise that you will spend a significant amount of time on the ground here. The contract and the visa expressly prevent you from working out here, and possibly for the entire duration of the course. Don't be afraid to take a bit of time off and make sure you enjoy NZ. There are people here who will tell you you shouldn't take time off and that flying must come first etc etc etc. These people are wrong. Worklife balance applies everywhere and if you're going to be sat on your arse for a week, you might as well get to enjoy it rather than spending it on the Pilot Farm all the time.

The quality of the training is good. Instructors here are good. CTC cadets have as good a chance as anyone, according to what we hear, of getting a jet job and that's what we're all paying for. It's the bits in between the flying that are the most challenging in some respects.

Kerosine

3rd Sep 2008, 09:08

One of the most interesting and informative posts I have read on this thread, thanks for taking the time to write it up. :ok:

Caracul

3rd Sep 2008, 09:14

Nice post..

Monkeyboy748

3rd Sep 2008, 09:29

can you still make a choice? i was under the impression that it was all integrated now?

PAJ

3rd Sep 2008, 09:39

FUHD, pretty on the mark there I'd say. I'm not sure about the exact number of integrated cadets forward coursed, but I think it is about 6 over the first few integrated courses, and that has managed to bring the dates almost back in line with the stated schedule, but this is unique to those cadets.

As an integrated cadet, I thought I would just slightly balance the modular/integrated argument a little. All that you say about modular is correct, and there are benefits for both sides of training. On the modular course, it is my personal opinion that captaincy skills are better developed as you get more PIC time to consolidate and have to 'fend for yourself' in terms of decision-making/airmanship. On the integrated course, my personal opinion is that these skills are slightly neglected as the learning curve is steep. However, this I would say is not essential for where cadets will end up in a multi pilot environment. The integrated course gives you a significant amount of groundschool which with it brings scheduling issues, but you get much more exposure to the ATPL course material making the brush up at BGS a little easier. ATPL results for each integrated CP are up on the modular courses by a few percent, sitting in the low 90's I belive at present. The big advantage that comes with the integrated course is that you get significantly more multi time, much of this being IFR en-route stuff. On return to Bournemouth, the first integrated courses have found the adjustment to flying IFR in the UK easier, and as currency is generally a little better, the whole UK phase is a little less painful. You get less total hours on the integrated course, but you have spent much more time being immersed in the multi IFR environment, where you will be for the rest of your professional career. I personally believe the integrated course is excellent, but I have not been subject to the same de-moralising delays some of the later courses have had to endure. Just my 2p worth but something to think about.

Robbo0885

3rd Sep 2008, 12:01

Assuming you have a current JAR PPL when you join CTC, and you choose CTC's Integrated option, couldn't you just convert your PPL to a NZ PPL? Allowing the benefits of your own NZ PPL whilst still doing CTC's integrated route? That way being able to hire for extra time if you want on your own, or to fly to hire for a trip to the South Island etc?

When a "significant saving" is made on CTC modular course, what kind of figures are we talking? (Bearing in mind the "significant" loan for the foundation course anyway! lol)

mrfilbert

3rd Sep 2008, 13:55

Hi all,

I've been a long-time lurker on these forums and like so many others before me I'd like to say thanks a lot for the informative posts and constructive debates that have helped inform my decision to apply to CTC, which I did yesterday.

At the risk of interrupting the modular/integrated discussion (which is fascinating - please keep at it, as it's something I know nothing about!) I do have one question which I don't think has yet been answered, and I was hoping one of you may be able to answer it for me. Actually, there are several questions in there, but on the same broad topic area!

Assuming you're not lucky enough to go straight into line training and (hopefully) employment with one of the partner airlines, and you enter the hold pool, how long does it take before your hours lapse and you need to cough up for more solo flying and/or training? Obviously in the current climate it seems recruitment is slowing down considerably and I'm really worried about saddling myself with £100,000 of debt with no flying job at the end of it AND gradually becoming less and less employable into the bargain AND having to pay to fly in some form or other to maintain currency. Also, is there a point at which CTC dump you out of the hold pool, and leave you to fend for yourself?

Am I crazy to even be considering investing in flying training at present? Is not being able to find a job a very real worry to those of you out in NZ at the moment, or are you of the opinion that 'it'll happen in the end'?

Thanks in advance!

Kerosine

3rd Sep 2008, 14:08

Looking at the current situation, it looks grim. Look 2 years into the future and depending on how optimistic you are you may feel it will be much improved.

It's a risky investment, however personally, I'm counting on the aviation industry finding it's feet again in the next 18 months, and will at least be recruiting. Maybe oil prices stabilising with no iminent fear of runaway increases will help; a small mercy.

PAJ

3rd Sep 2008, 15:10

To actually answer your question mrfilbert, basically at the end of the course, you end up with a Multi engine CPL/IR with ATPL theory. The ATPL theory to my knowledge does not actually expire once you have recieved a licence based upon this theory so that is no worry. In terms of the flying however, there are some legislative requirements to meet. The validity of the CPL is 5 years (I think!) so that shouldn't be a problem. However, the Multi Engine Class rating is only valid for a year, and the same applies for the Instrument Rating. Obviously the hope is that you are on a type rating course within a year of licence issue (everything gets renewed on the type rating so that it falls into line with the airline's training schedule) but if this doesn't happen, then you would have to think about re-validating ratings. The IR is the big one as you need the multi IR for the airlines, whereas the multi class rating (basically relating to a Multi Engine Piston aircraft like the DA42, a Seneca etc.) is not so important as you will be getting a type rating for a multi pilot aircraft which will have some form of turbine powerplant, requiring a different rating. If you intend to keep flying multi piston aircraft outside of the airlines, then obviously you will need to revalidate the rating and this must be done in a suitable multi piston aircraft. The IR on the other hand manages to confuse things still further! As I mentioned, it would be fairly important to keep the IR valid. There is a clause in JAR-FCL that allows a renewal to take place in a certified FNPT II (simulator) so long as the following renewal (effectively year 3 of your IR) is done in an aircraft. FNPT II's are obviously a lot cheaper to hire than aircraft and remove the landing/ instrument approach fees so this may well be a good option if it were to come to it.

I am fairly confident with the details of the above, but flight crew licencing is renowned for being a little ambiguous at the best of times! I suggest that if you want the actual details from the approved source, you have a look in the CAA LASORS as this is where everything is stipulated.

Now one thing I have neglected to consider is general flying currency. I am not sure what partner airlines thoughts are on not flying for months before they take you on, but it would definietly not hurt to fly whilst waiting. Also bear in mind that renewals require your handling and precision to be the same as that of your initial Intrument Rating test, and I think it would be highly unlikely that you would be able to meet that standard having done nothing in the previous 12 months, so you would have to factor in some recurrent training. I am not sure where CTC would stand in terms of cadet currency over a prolonged period - my thoughts are that the contract they have with you is to get you up to licence standard so therefore they would not keep you current. However, CTC are reasonable and practical and I am sure if they could help, they would.

99jolegg

3rd Sep 2008, 18:09

On an unrelated note has anyone heard anything more about the HSBC situation? Be a shame to see it go as no doubt it will make potential applicants think twice.

Still a bit of a murky puddle at the moment. I spoke to somebody at the bank today who conducts the initial interview for the loan, and they said it was stopping permanently at the end of September...apparently not purely due to the credit crunch but she wouldn't mention any more. Take this info with caution, because decisions are made above their heads so they could possibly have it wrong...

Someone applying now might shed some more light on to it, because the likelyhood of applying today, having stage 2/3 and stage 4 and getting an interview at HSBC before end of Sept is slim. Surely they must brief people at the intro meeting at stage 2 as to what is happening with finance.

At what stage do you get more info on modular / integrated route? The 'what happens next' pack (as far as I can see) only has a modular and integrated colour coded timetable and nothing else on the topic.

Kerosine

4th Sep 2008, 08:00

jolegg

At what stage do you get more info on modular / integrated route? The 'what happens next' pack (as far as I can see) only has a modular and integrated colour coded timetable and nothing else on the topic.

I have received an email from Daphne stating that the modular course is still being run and that you can arrange which you want to follow when you arrive in NZ. The person to contact when in NZ is the Head of Training, name can be provided on PM (not keen on posting names).

burty83

4th Sep 2008, 09:00

Do you still do more hours (200)on the modular course compared to the integrated (150)? As a product of the modular course I don't have much experience with the Integrated course. What I do know though, is that flying around NZ with a NZ PPL visiting as many airfields (patches of grass and gravel) as possible within the rules was the best time I've ever had when it comes to flying. Taking your mates to critique / give random failures to you also adds to the experience.

CTC NZ are getting more and more instructors qualified to instruct integrated students so the any delays between the 2 courses should start to level off.

Kerosine

4th Sep 2008, 19:29

If there are delays in the course which result in us being there for, say, 15/16 months, are we liable for any additional costs?

PAJ

4th Sep 2008, 19:38

No direct additional costs as such, but you will obviously have to cover the indirect costs such as living and fuel for the vehicles over that extended period. I am not entirely sure whether the cadets is responsible for the extra insurance cover, as I seem to remember getting an email from PJ Insurance a few months ago saying that my cover period had been extended and I didn't pay them any extra so maybe CTC covered that. You will also have to bear in mind the additional interest on your respective loans over that period. CTC have just published a document that introduces a new compensation scheme for delays during training but there seem to be a large number of clauses in there - either way CTC are thinking about it.

99jolegg

4th Sep 2008, 19:56

The insurance periods have been amended on CTC's request, which accounts for the higher cost if you have recently applied for it...

Standard periods (I believe) are 28 months for Term Life Assurance, 24 months for Bond Insurance (or until TR is achieved) and 18 months for the personal possessions / travel insurance. Kerosene mentioned the cost...around £1300 I believe.

Before they were amended, cadets were having to update / renew insurance whilst still abroad.

Kerosine

4th Sep 2008, 20:06

I'm not going with PJ, its extortionate. The final straw was putting premiums up by £200 in a month or so.
I'm shopping around seein as I have time. Found a policy today, almost identical, for medical (inc flying) and personal possessions. PJ say £720 for these 2 policies, Travel Direct quote £270 per 12 months (~£350 assuming 18 months at most). The only major difference is possessions are only covered for 1.5k rather than 3k.

Still looking into it but just goes to show how much of a premium PJ are adding on for the convenience of this 'tailored' pack... :rolleyes:

I'll post details when I have some solid info.

mrfilbert

7th Sep 2008, 18:04

A belated thanks to Paj & Kerosine - very useful information indeed.

Kerosine

8th Sep 2008, 15:17

Where is it? Can't seem to find out from my letters :bored:

99jolegg

8th Sep 2008, 18:07

I got a letter with a footnote about the day, saying they'll be in touch about it closer to the time.

Jordie1983

9th Sep 2008, 06:48

Just a quick note to those interested in the loan situation.

I just recieved an email to confirm that all new applicants must apply for their own loans through whatever bank they choose. They do still have contact with HSBC and advised me to contact them as a first option.

The secured loan may not be available in the future.

Vbells

9th Sep 2008, 08:16

Are there any other banks who would give such a large unsecured loan? I seriously doubt it. What is the nature of CTC's contract with HSBC now? Does that mean that they still offer the unsecured loan, just not through CTC? I'm totally stuffed if I can't get a loan :ugh:

Jordie1983

9th Sep 2008, 08:27

I dont really want to copy and paste the email, but it just says that the loan is the cadets responsibility and that they must contact HSBC themselves if thats who they want the loan from.

HSBC do have an arrangement with Cabair, which is still a secured loan. We can only hope that a similar thing will be offered.

I doubt that many banks will loan in excess of £60'000 without an awful lot of equity as house prices fall!!!

I'm sure there are a few of us who will have to look at other ways of doing it!!

I am in correspondence with CTC and will update if i find out anything else.

I know that people are still having interviews with HSBC until end of September.

The whole situation is a bit hazy at the moment with the economy as it is.

mlowe

9th Sep 2008, 16:36

For those who have recently and successfully obtained the hsbc loan from southampton...

What questions/checks/expectations do they expect.

Meeting friday - clearly concerned given the importance of the funding.

Any help would be hugely grateful.

Mike

Kerosine

9th Sep 2008, 17:28

mlowe

Expect to be asked on outgoings and incomings, any saving and debts, and also backup plans. Also may 'informally' ask about motivations, history, why a pilot etc.

Just go in knowing your exact financial position and put on your phase 3 interview head :ok:

On another issue...

Does anyone know whether you get your uniform at the meet and greet or in NZ?

What other kit do you get at the meet and greet?

Thanks chaps :)

Jordie1983

10th Sep 2008, 08:48

Just got off the phone to HSBC in southampton and they said as of the end of september there will be no loans at all for CTC students!! Even their professional studies loan doesnt cover pilots!!

Just wondering if anyone has been to selection what they are saying??

The website has changed too explaining what you now have to pay.

singingpilot

10th Sep 2008, 11:20

Can someone post a link to the HSBC site that deals with the loans for pilot training please.

Thanks

Kerosine

10th Sep 2008, 11:59

Jordan
Even their professional studies loan doesnt cover pilots!!
singingpilot

Can someone post a link to the HSBC site that deals with the loans for pilot training please.
Am I missing something? :bored:

Maybe you should have a quick look and let us know what you find :ok:

edit: Good luck with phase 4 tomorrow Chris :p

Jordie1983

10th Sep 2008, 14:21

Kerosine; Im not sure what the other poster is talking about but HSBC have a professional studies loan of up to £25'000 for people training to be doctors/lawyers etc etc.... unfortunately training to be a pilot is not included!! Google it and you will see.

Anyone any ideas as to where i can borrow the money??? Answers on a postcard!!

singingpilot

10th Sep 2008, 14:48

Sorry if I have caused confusion, I read about a web site detailing information on the HSBC situation and assumed that this was an HSBC web site. I think I was mistaken!

I have my phase 4 tomorrow, sitting at home trying to think of things to do to keep my mind occupied!!

Hope I haven't jinxed phase 4 by asking about HSBC

Chris

Kerosine

10th Sep 2008, 14:56

Anyone any ideas as to where i can borrow the money??? Answers on a postcard!!
Wish I could offer a suggestion, unfortunately at the mo I'm stumped :(
I have my phase 4 tomorrow, sitting at home trying to think of things to do to keep my mind occupied!!

Try these :p

737-3/4/500 Flightdeck (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightdeck737300.htm)

Boeing 737 Flight Instruments (http://www.b737.org.uk/flightinsts.htm#Classic_Flight_Instruments)

jaimz1982

10th Sep 2008, 15:39

Hi Everyone,

Been reading the post for a while now as I'm due out on the CP67 course in October.

I'm an ICP guy, but my loan has all been confirmed, I've passed the tests etc, passed the credit rating etc and all that jazz. However, mine is stuck at the Solicitors stage where you have to get your parents legal advice as it is secured against their house.

I've been let down by HSBC as they've sent the wrong information to me and I've now had to hassle them to re-write the correct agreement between themselves and my parents.

Does anyone therefore know / had the opportunity to speak to anyone regarding the situation? e.g if you're halfway through / 75% through sorting it, how do you stand regarding the loan in september?

I've tried ringing Lynda,m but shes no longer there and Allison is on HOliday and Samantha hasn't rung me back. I've even got onto the securities dept who are tryng to sort the situation out!

Anyone else in similar situa on wings or icp course?

tredsell

10th Sep 2008, 15:52

jaimz1982, did you get the full amount of the course cost +living expenses? or have you had to stump up some of the money yourself. I'm trying to sort a place on the iCP course too, but money is all the issue! and no-one from HSBC is about to talk to!

jaimz1982

10th Sep 2008, 15:57

Got the whole lot tredshell, £79,700

I love debt!

poss

10th Sep 2008, 19:48

ICP is just like going to any other FTO, you are required to front the cash from your own sources.

Jordie1983

11th Sep 2008, 05:56

Thats the impression i got!!!

Robbo0885

11th Sep 2008, 14:41

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this change in CTC/HSBC partnership? I'm going ou ton CP69 on Dec31st, and my head is spinning with possible reasons (none of which very positive!).

Now, I'm a worrier by nature, so this situation regarding HSBC and CTC has (unsurprisingly) made me worried.

Is there anything conrete (i.e. not what osmeone thinks and posts as "I heard...blah blah blah) about why HSBC are stopping funding, and what implications this has for the CTC Wings Cadets?

What are CTC saying to the guys going through selection about financing and this recent change?

Kerosine

11th Sep 2008, 14:51

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this change in CTC/HSBC partnership?

Is there anything conrete (i.e. not what osmeone thinks and posts as "I heard...blah blah blah) about why HSBC are stopping funding, and what implications this has for the CTC Wings Cadets?

Same reason people can't get credit cards and mortgages. Banks don't want to lend large sums of money any more regardless of whether you're a CTC cadet, OAA cadet or a starting up a new business. It's in CTC's interests to have this agreement in place but ultimately the decision lies with the lender.

Implications are that new cadets will have to secure an independant loan against a property and/or fixed asset. This makes it effectively unavailable to people such as myself who do not have fixed assets.

singingpilot

11th Sep 2008, 16:40

Hello all,

I have just passed my Phase 4, bit of a scary landing and some tricky maths!!!

So I will be joining you others on CP69 by the looks of things!!!

Just got to get everything sorted before then.

Chris

Kerosine

11th Sep 2008, 16:43

Congrats Chris! :ok::ok:

How are you for finance?

GigaNu

11th Sep 2008, 17:05

This might be a stupid question at the wrong stage, but I entered my application, and was successful, but could you give me some more information on ctc, what airline would I get a job with? Or is a job guaranteed?

Thanks

99jolegg

11th Sep 2008, 17:57

You might want to read this thread and their website before going to stage 2/3. One thing they will look for at the interview is knowledge about what you're getting yourself into in terms of CTC and the airline industry...

Good luck with the application!

Robbo,

As Kerosine points out...the credit crunch is the majority of the decision but HSBC also mentioned other reasons that they didn't disclose. As far as I'm aware (could be wrong) it doesn't really affect those that have the loan already. Only the economy (interest rates) will affect the loan rather than the relationship between HSBC and CTC.

EvelcyclopS

11th Sep 2008, 18:07

just been down on the 9th to do phase 2/3, was succesful at phase 2 but not phase three. i have been told i was close so i have been invited back in 6 months.

I have read this whole thread out, but i need to know if reapplication means going back to phase 1, or because i have passed the pilapt and numerical tests, whether i go str8 to phase 3... i have asked ctc, but they have aid a reply could take weeks, and i would like to know now. Also, what do you think the chances are of getting through the second time round?

A heads up on finance.

I asked what the situation was, and they said that finance was still availabel for the very near future, but it will stop. HSBC are also stopping all other professional loans so its not just CTC. CTC are in conference with other banks and they hope to be able to resolve the issue.

I've just left uni with a mountain of debt, and with all the will in the world, i just dont see how i can possibly get a secured loan for that amount withing the next few years. Awful time to graduate, no jobs, no loans, no cash.

99jolegg

11th Sep 2008, 19:06

You'll go back to the stage that you failed. If you fail stage 3, you'll go back to "resit" stage 3 and then progress to stage 4 if you pass.

Pass rate for re-applicants is very high - somebody mentioned a 95% pass rate for those reapplying simply because they have the areas that went wrong as feedback so in most cases, it's simple to correct it.

EvelcyclopS

11th Sep 2008, 23:03

wow really!

thats excellent on both accounts. If i thought i had to do pilapt again, i think that reapplication could be hit or miss. I have to wait to get feedback, but i reckon it was the group exercise that let me down a little. perhaps a few dodgy answers in the interview too.

EvelcyclopS

11th Sep 2008, 23:07

by the way, if you do go back to phase three, what happens if you failed a group excercise? considering these are done at phase 2, how do the make you do them again, or is it totalitarian, if you fail a group excercise once, thats it, no coming back?

99jolegg

12th Sep 2008, 06:06

Not sure what you mean.

If you fail a group exercise and pass the other one when you go back, I don't know what will happen. Probably depends on whether the assessors think you're suitable.

If you failed one group exercise last time, then you'll redo both group exercises and have another interview that'll cover the last 6 months plus a few extra questions.

jaimz1982

12th Sep 2008, 10:31

Just had it confirmed to me by a lady at the bank at Southampton.

HSBC will be stopping all postgraduate study loans including the CTC loan from the end of Septmeber. However she says they will honour any loan that is currently being processed.... including mine!

xbilz

15th Sep 2008, 15:22

If you fail any group exercise, they will ask you to resit that. I went in may 08 but didn't go to phase4. However, they also called me back stating that i was very close to their standards. My feedback said that I failed one of the group exercise as they found me dominating the group (which I admit because no one was speaking or discussing and I, only then, had to jump in to define the objectives of our task... wish I had stayed quiet).

However, due to this fact they have asked me to repeat from phase 1 and I thought for what reasons .. despite passing it. But never mind, never afraid of it. I am back in Nov 08 and if i pass I will not need HSBC to fund me .. I worked like a donkey :E.. (still a donkey :} ) and sacrificed much.

I am also a graduate and an IT engineer/consultant so will always have a backup plan and side work. so the bottom line is they may ask you to sit any exercise.

Callum Riseley

15th Sep 2008, 15:58

Hey, First post here :ok:.

Regarding the HSBC - CTC partnership, will this completely end the loans or will it be resolved by the time I hopefully apply (2011)?

Thanks,
Callum.

akindofmagic

15th Sep 2008, 16:19

It's difficult to tell what's going to happen next week, let alone in three years' time. I wouldn't be worrying about the financing aspect at this point. Concentrate on getting through GCSEs, A levels and ideally a degree before you even start to think about financing pilot training!

Kerosine

15th Sep 2008, 16:52

Regarding the HSBC - CTC partnership, will this completely end the loans or will it be resolved by the time I hopefully apply (2011)?

Who knows what's happening next month never mind in over 2 years! :bored: Whatever anyone might suggest in regards to financial arrangements with CTC and the banks, take it with a pinch of salt. Mr Magic seems to have the sensible option I believe :ok:

That being said, the sensible option is not always the best to take.

EvelcyclopS

15th Sep 2008, 18:12

However, due to this fact they have asked me to repeat from phase 1 and I thought for what reasons .. despite passing it.

Ah, so it isnt quite as clear cut then? Thats a bummer. Why on earth did they ask you to go to phase 1 again? The CTC process does seem to be inconsistant to say the least...

Did you get to phase 3?

How would pilapt work? if it measures you on improvement rathr than score, the second attempt at doing it will have a much shallower learning curve...

This news isnt really what i wanted to hear. To be honest, I'm pretty sure it was a gropup excercise that let me down because i was very active in the group, but i always let people talk and encouraged the quieter members for their thoughts. The group excercises seem like the hardest part of the whole thing, because you cant really prepare for it, and you dont really know what theyre looking for. For someone like me who has mostly led teams, its almost impossible not to want to start organising...

xbilz

16th Sep 2008, 11:52

I also have a blue chip background in managing people and seriously, I had to speak up in my first group meeting because everyone was quiet and did not even discuss who we were going to execute the task. So if I was the only 1 speaking, then I was the only 1 speaking.

djfingerscrossed is right. In my second exercise, I even used humour to defuse the tense envrionment (but it was picked up in my feedback). I also attempted to get the quietest person to get involved and asked for his opinions on various occassions .. and yes, I smiled a few times which they did notice.

My pilapt scores were mainly ... 4,7,8 ... 5,7,9 ... 3,5,8 ... 5,4,7 ...4, 6, 8.. etc .. so I had no doubt in passing that. Maths was way too easy. I passed stage 2 and went to the stage 3 .. had a good interview as well. Never mind, ready for it again... confident to nail it this time. but I always advise people that they should always have a backup plan. :ok:

rik2204

16th Sep 2008, 14:09

Hi there Xbilz, i was in may too and have to resit in november (6 month after), i did well the group ex. but did wrong an apt. test.
Sooo, i was wondering if you have already sent an e-mail to ctc staff for the resit date or, when are you going to do it? :)
I want to resit as soon as possible (as you i presume) and surely the queue for the selection is getting longer in this period.

See ya
Rik

EvelcyclopS

16th Sep 2008, 14:35

oh now i am confused! how did you get to stage 3 without passing the aptitude tests??!!?! :ugh::ouch::confused:

EvelcyclopS

16th Sep 2008, 14:41

they should always have a backup plan

heh, thats why i did a non aviation based degree - so now i work for a pittance in a laboratory testing for psuedomonas aeroginosa...

but i still have a hell of a target to shoot for, there are lots of FTO's but theres summit about CTC that tells me that theyre the best. Dibden is luvly.

to dream.. the improbable dream...

rik2204

16th Sep 2008, 15:01

i have to resit for the phase 2,i didn't have the interview

Wee Weasley Welshman

16th Sep 2008, 15:14

The lax credit bubble that allowed CTC to offer a range of schemes has now gone.

CTC have a number of cadets under training who will soon be, or are, seeking employment.

WWW

xbilz

16th Sep 2008, 16:16

rik, I will email ctc this week to confirm the date in november. I cannot believe that there is £100 fee for re-assessment. good luck.

EvelcyclopS, rik did not go to stage 3 but he is lucky enough to be called back for re-assessment. Many are not. I myself still confused as to why I have been asked to resit phase-2 just because I failed a group exercise... but never mind. I loathe paying £100 re-assessment fee.

WWW is right with the HSBC loan scheme. I guess it will also effect the number of wings cadets who had hoped to secure this loan as the only funding opportunity for their training. In turn, it will definetly effect CTC. I myself seriously considering the modular route .. as WWW suggested earlier to "go slow, go modular" so that you go along the market trends. There won't be any job guarantees at the end of the training whichever school you go to. I am tempted with CTC because its full-time and better reputation. I might just do modular on fast pace and complete training in the same duration and save £20000. Will see !

Day_Dreamer

16th Sep 2008, 16:18

CTC

Dont put your hopes in CTC they like all training providers will have great trouble in placing their cadets over the next 18 months.

With their connections they might and I say might place a few, but so will all the training (integrated) organisations.

The biggest problem will be raising the funding over the next few months.

All the establishments are looking for a reliable financial institution to provide the funds, so watch this space, but dont hold your breath.

CTC have had their heyday and until the flooded job market empties and the credit crunch eases they will be on leaner times.

EvelcyclopS

16th Sep 2008, 19:06

i think interest rates will be a lot lower in 6 months time.. things are bad right now, but the market is weeding out the gamblers right now, in 6 months time we will have reaped the benefit of low oil prices and high crop yields to reduce inflation by a significant margin. Add to that a steadying of the US housing markets and i think we will be on the road to recovery.

I hope.

PAJ

16th Sep 2008, 19:30

I think HSBC are right to pull these large loans from a strategic business perspective (although I know it will make flying training incredibly tough for many people - I could never have afforded to train unless HSBC had been there). HSBC are a business and offered a very unique product at significant risk, hence they want the large interest return as an incentive. The markets need this crash as credit has been given out far too wrecklessly for too long. Once things stabilise, I would have thought some sort of similar financial scheme may be made available. I know cadets who have the £60k loan, a further £15k for living costs and Foundation Course, then have £12k in student loan from uni plus other debts. With interest, that will come to about £130k and that is a huge huge financial responsibility for someone who might only be 21/22! We'll have to see how things respond but CTC cadet intakes will surely drop over the next couple of years, although I think CTC have managed to fill courses well into 2009. There are about 280 cadets in the system at the moment I think and getting all these guys into jobs will be a massive massive task! That includes the guys who are not due to be ready until 2010 but still, no mean feat!

barrybeebone

17th Sep 2008, 07:13

Hi all

I am not a pilot but I am looking for jobs in aviation at the moment. I have experience in project management in aviation, mainly security and safety projects and I can speak Indonesian. I am looking for work in Asia or Middle East but am open to other places. I realise this site is mainly for pilots but if anyone can direct me to a forum on this site or elsewhere that has jobs you think may suit me or you know would help non pilots, plese let me know.

Cheers

no sponsor

17th Sep 2008, 08:51

280 cadets currently in training is a massive number. To put this in perspective, my airline (Jet2) has just over 300 pilots in total. XL had 200 pilots.

CTC's business model is now as ropey as an all business airline wanting to fly from London to New York. It is premised on new aircraft arriving, and pilots leaving their partner airlines for pastures new...

MajorYaw

17th Sep 2008, 11:55

There are not 280 cadets on the ground in NZ/UK right now. That's a number from PAJ apparently including whatever he has heard about future CPs yet to begin. CTC could cut them before they got here if they so decided. There are a lot of us in the system though, including the guys still waiting in the UK and those going through UK stages.

As for CTC's business model - if there's x number of vacancies for cadet pilots from a variety of FTOs, the placing of cadets will come down to the quality of the individual, the quality of the organisation and the relationships between client and FTO. If any FTO pushes hard and their cadets are consistently good, there's reason to think that there's a better chance of airlines being willing to consider their cadets before others. I think this is essentially the recruitment principal that Easy were applying - all their cadets were coming from the CTC route for a time, as per their site. And anyway, getting placed is still not a guarantee of a job. The airline can cut you if you're crap at anytime until you are made a full employee. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yeah.

Numbers quoted to us by CTC about cadet pilot demand from certain airlines suggested, four months ago, that the airlines had greater forecast demand than CTC could meet. Obviously, that was then, this is now. But also, cadet pilots are one of the cheaper blokes to put in the right-hand seat and everyone needs some new blood.

I think we're all expecting to be swimming in the pool for a while from this point on. Meanwhile, CTC seem to be trying to break new markets for recruits and potential airline clients. Have License and debt, will travel! Have License and debt and girlfriend and life, probably will not travel!

rik2204

17th Sep 2008, 15:21

Xbilz, yesterday i sent an e-mail to CTC to ask for a new assessment date ( in november); veeeery quick answer!!, they told me to wait until the 1th of Nov and then write them back to select a new date:ugh:
ps
how do you know about the £100 fee for a re assessment?

Ciao

sarah2001

17th Sep 2008, 18:13

what is the current HSBC agreement (i am aware it is stopping but am interested in what they were offering).

does anyone have any alternatives in raising finance from other banks/loan agreements with the same option of not starting repayments for 2 years?

thanks

EvelcyclopS

17th Sep 2008, 18:53

HSBC offered a professional student loan which covered the bond, foundation course and living expenses of a CTC student on an unsecured basis - meaning you wouldnt need any capital (house) to get funding.

Now the economic slowdown is upon us, it is no longer wise for HSBC to be offering such dangerous financing (very difficult to retrieve loss if repayments canot be made)so they are ending the unsecured offer.

It is now awarded on a secured basis, meaning that you need to have a significant amount of capital to raise that amount of funds ( e.g. a house worth approx 100k i would imagine) so that if you mess up, they can get their money back in kind.

The difficulty for most people going through CTC is; most will be either 19yrs old fresh out of college with no capital and 21/22 yrs olds fresh out of Uni, with a dodgy credit rating and 12-15ks worht of debt already. and no house.

so getting finance basically rests upon your parents, whether they will put their house up as collateral for you to fly. i know mine wont, so its a really tough issue where funding comes from otherwise. Perhaps finding a personal investor is possible, but in this climate, i'd imagine it would be difficult.

PAJ

17th Sep 2008, 22:55

Majoryaw, my figures were based on a rather crude calculation on the assumption of an average of 12 per CP, which is about right. There are currently (to the best of my knowledge, based on the assumption that the latest course in NZ is CP64) around 250 who are actually in training or who are waiting for type rating. 280 included the next few CPs due to be out before Christmas. A few are going through BA selection, but nonetheless, it is a very significant number.

Tommy_uk

18th Sep 2008, 22:20

Does anyone else feel that it is pointless applying for ctc at such a time considering the economical climate? I have a University degree in Aerospace engineering and not sure which path to follow :uhoh . I know everyone will say only you can answer that question, but if you were in my shoes what would you do? I have the majority of the funding available but what is the best route to take to become a pilot these days?

Geetea

19th Sep 2008, 03:21

Probably modular mate, get yourself a job with your degree and do the ATPL's and hour building slowly and affordably

MajorYaw

19th Sep 2008, 11:38

There is now no official age limit to CTC applications. It used to be 28 or something. There are plenty of people here over that age. If time is on your side, surely it makes a lot of sense to pursue education and a career of some sort that may or may not be related to aviation, and spend some of your hard earned on learning to fly for fun. That way, you get to work out whether you really enjoy flying, you earn cash you can save towards training (however you end up training), and you build up a big protective net to cover your backside should you need it in the future after taking the plunge.

As for CTC's future plans, it's pretty impossible to say how long the Wings scheme will be around. It's existed in some form since around '97 I believe (based on recall of meeting a former trainee who was involved in the recrutiment assessment process when I went through), but iCP cadets are coming through now and the whole thing could switch over one day. Or not.

If the rumours are true, it's so much cheaper to train in NZ who knows how long the programme will remain economically viable. Your sixty grand goes a long, long way in NZ and integrated guys (should) only do a handful of sims and flights in UK on DA42s before their AQC, so your bond really might cover a lot of of your CTC training. Add on top the interest on the debt capital provided by cadets as an income stream for the business, and, delays and unforeseen circumstances and what not considered, the programmes may not be that dependent on full cadet placement to hit black. There must be sizeable margins/contingency built in. Wings/iCP is not the company's main business anyway, and the company structure is such that the bits involved with them are separate companies and could probably be wound-up/jettisoned without sacrificing other operations.

Possibly one way of looking at it is this: if you sign up and two years after starting, you still haven't got a RHS, HSBC will be knocking at your door asking for at least £1100 a month repayment. More if you needed living costs and foundation. What's the average graduate wage take home these days? What's the average sub 25-year-old non-graduate take home? Either one of those gives little change out of £1100 if at all, after deductions. You could be working purely to service a debt, with nothing left to live on, which is effectively bankruptcy. Kiss goodbye to your credit line for seven years after declaring yourself financially bummed out.

The less you have to borrow, the better. Full stop. But then again, everything might be sthweeet athssss and you get a job straightaway and it all smells of roses. Who knows.

MajorYaw

19th Sep 2008, 11:42

And IMO, anyone who's parents are willing to secure their one and only family home on their kid becoming a pilot wants their heads examined! Get the money from somewhere else, like granny's collection of golden teeth, family heirlooms and antiques. There are literally loads and loads of grannies out there! :)

akindofmagic

19th Sep 2008, 14:35

I have stated before in this thread: if you decide to go for the CTC scheme and do not get a job at the end, you will almost certainly not find a job in any other industry that pays you enough to allow you to pay off the loan.

To be brutally honest, I think that unless you are already a qualified doctor, lawyer, accountant or other similar professional BEFORE you embark on the course (and note I said "qualified" and not just a trainee/ graduate), you will NOT be able to pay the loan off at the conclusion of the course if you do not get placed. It is a fallacious argument to talk of having a good back-up plan. For example, I am a law graduate, but there is no way I can even contemplate a career as a barrister or a solicitor, as I can neither afford to take the BVC/ LPC, nor can I afford to spend another year in education without earning.

jb5000

19th Sep 2008, 14:46

The job is not worth £100k of debt. The risk is too much for what the career actually involves.

How many of you actually truly *know* what being a pilot is like? Warts and all?

My advice to you would be to forget it for at least 3 years, unless you can do it without getting into any debt.

If you are filling in a loan application in the near future, think back to this post.

You are making a mistake.

Kerosine

19th Sep 2008, 15:03

What a ray of sunshine jb5000 :rolleyes:

jb5000

19th Sep 2008, 15:14

People need to be aware that going through CTC is not the guaranteed job that it used to be.

Let's be honest here - it's not sponsored.

You may be left with 100k of debt and no possible means to service it.

IVA? Bankruptcy?

The risk of doing that to yourself is so high now, especially as CTC now do the iCP and have huge course numbers.

In my opinion the job simply isn't worth it.

Listen to yourself if you are disagreeing with me on the last one. Going bankrupt just for a job is never worth it.

Vbells

19th Sep 2008, 18:18

I am due to resit Phase 4 in November/December but I'm starting to wonder if theres any point. If I can't get an unsecured loan there is no way I can finance the training. I wonder if it might be possible to defer starting the course if you get through Phase 4 in the hope that financing become available in the future? Has anyone asked them about this? I would have thought that if you're good enough to get through the application phases they might be ok about keeping you on file until you can afford to fund it; especially since its not a lack of commitment thats causing the problem!

FeetUpHeadDown

20th Sep 2008, 00:35

It's probably pertinent to remind people that CTC is far from the only way into the RHS. Most pilots out there are not CTC. What about all the guys who took one of the various longer ways round and did all their hour building etc etc, turboprops, then jets? Sure it takes longer, but it's probably more affordable and certainly shields you from risk in a way that simply does not exist for CTC cadets, or anyone stumping up debt capital to an FTO.

As for "most medics" declaring bankruptcy, I'd like to see the proof of that from a reputable source. That sounds like a ridiculous and irresponsible statement if ever I heard one. The ramifications of an individual declaring bankruptcy are very far reaching, and "being in a stable relationship" is not some get out clause. If you're identifiably financially linked to other parties, your bankruptcy will drag down the collective credit rating. Plus, there might be employers out there who may rule out a person who is bankrupt on the grounds that they were financially irresponsible. Why would a bank or financial service employ someone in that position? That's a lot of jobs in the UK.

In other news, latest updates on placements/jobs right now is awful. Suffice to say it is what one would expect given the economic climate. Put on your wetsuit and snorkel, the water is cold.

Edit: The whole grad scheme pay thing - the average is a skewed figure, most grads do not earn the upper end of the scale, having a degree is not a guarantee of minimum income, more grads = more grad job competition = lower T&Cs, most grad jobs do not come with a golden handshake etc etc. djfingerscrossed may be in that percentile who can/have go there, but most people are not. The reality of the debt is that it is not feasible to be earning the wages of up to about a 25 year-old (perhaps more) and expect to have any meaningful amount of money left after the loan. Working 9 - 8 to have literally nothing is not possible and will destroy one's soul in weeks. Even having say 300 quid in your pocket afterwards allows you to errr... pay for petrol to get to work and back. Geee, those numbers just get worse, don't they? For all the people here without established work records and skills, if they don't get bailed out by M&D and have to swim for 18months, I would imagine they'd be fcuked.

Likely that HSBC would extend the repayment periods to stave off multiple bankruptcies.

From someone who is now in this situation and too deep to get out, I would advise people now considering to pause for a very, very big thought. There are lots and lots of other things you can do, and ways you can do it.

As for "no modular guys fly for big airlines" I don't think that's totally true either. I suspect it's much more about the way you go about getting your training and building proven skills. If "Big Airlines" just means BA, well golly they aren't the only airline in the world last time I checked.

MajorYaw

20th Sep 2008, 04:33

djfingerscrossed sounds more like djwirescrossed.

A change in rate of declared bankruptcies is not an indicator of the proportion of the total population of a group going bankrupt. Without showing the figures, your claim that "most medics" are going bankrupt still means nothing and appears unfounded. To post it like it's ok to do it coz all doctors are doing it is dumb. Don't give people bad ideas. Bankruptcy might even prevent a future captaincy, but that's an unverified rumour from the farm.

From Recruiter.co.uk, 2007:

This year’s crop of university leavers are earning an average starting salary of around £20,800, according to the latest First Rung: Graduate Pay Trends report from management consultancy Hay Group. The study, based on information from public and private sector employers throughout the UK, places the average graduate starting salary at £20,812.
It found that despite a rise of 2.5% since 2006, wage inflation for university leavers continues to lag behind national levels of 3.5% over the last year, the report finds.
The Hay Group research reveals that for the second year running, starter salaries in the public sector are racing ahead of those offered in the private sector. The average salary for a graduate joining the civil service in 2007 will be £21,885 – 3.1% above the average private sector wage of £21,223. Only those seeking work this year in the lucrative oil industry can expect to earn a higher average starting salary, with packages pitched at over £25,227.
Juan Novoa, reward analyst at Hay Group and author of the report, says: “Despite the increasing number of graduates in the job market, companies are still struggling to recruit graduates with the right mix of skills and competencies. Rather than attracting candidates with high salaries, many companies are now marketing a total package, based on bonuses, benefits and comprehensive training programmes to ensure their graduate intake develops the right skills to be fit for the future.”
Graduates working in London continue to command the highest starting salaries at £24,333, up 7% since last year. The South East is also a relatively lucrative region for graduates, boasting an average starting salary of £21,022.
Scotland, however, has fallen significantly down the graduate pay ladder since 2006. The region now comes in at a poor ninth in the graduate pay table for this year, with typical starting salaries pitched at 2.2% below the national average at £20,354.

So djfingerscrossed’s figures ("Higher level grad schemes will be around circa 26k plus (usually with golden hand shakes) so you can make those payments (just) and have a few quid.") is wildly off the mark for maybe 95% of grads. According to last year's numbers, you'd have to be in oil to get near what he/she is talking about. Or maybe banking. Hmmm... banking. Did I hear something in the news about banking, recently?

£20,800 p.a. contracted out of S2P and not paying anything to a corporate pension scheme gives approx £1361 per month take home, based on Financial Tools - Prudential UK (http://www.pru.co.uk/home/calculator/income_tax/#) figures. If you just came out of college at 19, you're even worse off as you’ve got much less earning power.

And remember the weakness of average figures. Basically, on these numbers a recent graduate cannot service the debt because they would not have enough money for food, clothing and transport, never mind anything that makes life better than being a bonded slave. Which you essentially are, on these terms, and that's not taking into account uni debts. This would mean a re-negotiation with HSBC to lower the repayments, thereby extending the life of the loan and the overall cost of it. Plus whatever pressure is coming from uni debts, which come straight from wages under the new system, right? Then there's the IVA option, with all of the stigmas and issues. And then there's bankruptcy. I'd be interested to know how bankruptcy can be "made to work" for the individual over a period of 10 years from the date of declaring. Please educate me and I'll get cracking with the paperwork and book that court date online.

How can university entrance figures ballooning in the last 15 years do anything other than effectively restrict the proportions taking the top tier places? Aiming to get in means nothing until you're there, and if there's more competition then it's stupid to financially forecast in the most optimistic manner.

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

With Zoom, XL and others in Europe going to the wall, there's a glut of unemployed experience pilots in the market. They all speak English. Most of us don't speak anything but. There's another big thread or two about this particular topic and it rings true for all FTOs and their cadets.

As for supportive messages, what about reality? "Support" is not synonymous with "shot-from-the-hip bull****". The reality is this: it's now a terrible time to be trying to start an airline career within the limited timeframe presented by the repayment dates of your massive loan because the jobs aren't there at the end right now and if the economic cycle takes 2 - 5 years to recover, that might be too long for you to ride out. There's loads of CTC Wings cadets in the pool right now and the longest swimmers have been there for I'd estimate 6 months+. If you can still get the unsecured finance, recent posts here should be the sobering message that CTC won't give you in the recruitment brochure.

Readers of this thread should be aware, and it is pretty obvious, that few current/past cadets post on here, and the factual information they can/do share is limited for a number of reasons. IMO cadets who have inside knowledge who choose to post therefore have a responsibility not to talk cavalier bollocks to people who may be rather impressionable for one reason or another, nor should they underplay aspects of what is a massively risky undertaking regardless of the economic climate in which it is being undertaken.

BA do take modular people. They've been taking modular people from CTC all along. Every CTC applicant to BA to date has been modular. Albeit CTC modular are the only modular ones they take, apparently. But as has been said, BA is not the be all and end all of commercial flying in UK/Europe, just as £26,000 (with handshakes and cock knocks) grad jobs are not the be all and end all of grad jobs.

Applicants: If time is on your side consider all options and extend your time window. Avoid fixation on one thing, coz it's probably going to lead you down the wrong path. If time is not on your side, make sure you can afford the risks.

Why is no one talking about organising a run on HSBC to bring about its unrecoverable demise, thereby causing all debts owed to it to be written off? Fight Club, anyone? Now there's a topic worth discussing. Not that I am advocating errr... Well, then again...

JB5000 - CTC was never a guaranteed job.

jb5000

20th Sep 2008, 08:48

MajorYaw - I meant that there used to be the perception that taking the CTC wings cadets course meant a guaranteed job. After all, 100% of cadets have been employed to date. This was leading people into (I agree, incorrectly) assuming that their risk on the £60k+ bond was minimal.

I concede that I too was one of the many that thought my risk was minimal.

I am now sitting on £100k worth of debt and no job, tossed aside at the whim of an airline looking to save a few quid.

The loan repayments are going to be approximately £1,100 a month, with interest accruing at the rate of £20 a day. There is no job I could walk straight into that could pay that amount, and I have a solid degree and a years experience in the city.

Yes djfingerscrossed you may be able to have a 'back up plan' should your employment be delayed. However not all grad schemes recruit all year round, and as soon as you start you have committed yourself to abandoning your flying career. No employer is going to let you get paid £30k+ for several months then you swan off back to a type rating, or remployment with an airline. The general feeling I have from searching for employment is that the average graduate salary is £24,000 at best. That is nowhere near enough to repay any kind of 'bond'.

To sum up:

- Not a guaranteed job by a long shot, especially in todays economic climate.

- If you are not employed by an airline the odds of being able to repay the loan at the agreed rate is minimal. Having a degree or even experience is nowhere near enough of a backup plan. Having an ACA or being a fully qualified lawyer might just be enough. I was going to put in investment banker too, but events in recent days probably indicate otherwise.

- The airlines clearly feel no obligation or moral commitment to keeping cadets, even when marketing on their own website offers a 'sponsorship' scheme.

Be very very very wary guys and girls. The financial position I am in now is bloody terrifying, enough to keep me awake at night and occupy my thoughts for most of the day.

Train slowly, keep out of debt. You might even enjoy some of the flying along the way!

Rhodes13

20th Sep 2008, 10:51

DJ Big Airways do take modular guys once you have some time on a JAR 25 aircraft. Saying you want to go to CTC because BA only recruit from there is rather simplistic and expensive way of looking at it. What happens if you don't get into BA? They are definitely not hiring at the moment and it could be a long time before they do again as the hold pool is being topped up at the moment!

Plenty of boys from the charter market and the loco's are now flying for BA.

Check your facts before posting!

rik2204

20th Sep 2008, 11:20

Jb5000 you can call me insane but i would pay an extra £50k to be in your situation! you have almost made your dream came true and this is the reason why people (me too) apply massively for the cadet "sponsored" scheme, understimating the risk of rising such a huge debt!

!!!good luck!!!

jb5000

20th Sep 2008, 12:09

You're insane.

preduk

20th Sep 2008, 13:02

It's not a risk... it's suicide. It's like getting a pistol, loading it full of rounds apart from one chamber and pointing it at your head.

Your not insane, your crazy! :ugh:

akindofmagic

20th Sep 2008, 15:58

I third that. You are insane.

rik2204

20th Sep 2008, 16:21

Jb5000, how is the situation exactly? i mean what about the other 11 of your course? are they struggling to find a job?give me an ideaout the CTC comitment "to find you a job".
What does CTC say? do they reassure you or they do not care?.:rolleyes:

rik2204

20th Sep 2008, 16:24

Forgot to say sorry about my extraglooooobish english ;)

preduk

20th Sep 2008, 16:41

rik2204,

It doesn't matter what CTC promise or guarantee you, at the end of the day airlines aren't recruiting. What happens when you finish your training and no airline wants you? How are you going to pay a 100k loan to the bank? The bank wont care if your unemployed, they jsut want their money back as promised. Failure to do so would damage your credit rating, meaning it would be impossible to purchase a house on a mortgage.

What happens if an airline that recruits you collapses? What happens if you get sacked?

As I said, you would need to be insane to borrow that amount of money right now.

99jolegg

20th Sep 2008, 16:55

The big problem with this is that it isn't discussed at the right time. Two years ago when people were applying to CTC and other integrated FTOs would have been a great time to discuss the future (very difficult to do, granted) and present.

The near future seems a good time to start. Early 2009 on a two year course plus roughly 6 months of delays means you'll leave in around mid 2011...which I suspect (as do others) will be a darn sight prettier than the current situation.

Should you wait for mid 2009 and you'll finish the course at around the beginning of 2012...

Of course, this doesn't take into account the issue of finance with HSBC in the current situation.

Maybe it's just me that's missing something....:(

no sponsor

20th Sep 2008, 18:00

...99

Good point. The industry will recover. Airlines recruit around sept-jan each year, so all you have to work out is which autumn to graduate into. I suspect 2011 would be ok.

Fair_Weather_Flyer

20th Sep 2008, 18:49

Yep it's guys who train when the market is low that seem to come out the best. It takes balls though, especially if it's a secured loan. The overall problem with CTC is that they've piggybacked on the growth of Easyjet and now that has ground to a halt the game has changed. Only breaking into new markets will change things.

If I was one of the current holding pool cadets, I'd seriously consider going bankrupt if the debt is unsecured. Within one year the bankruptcy will be over and the debt millstone will be removed. Sure you'll not be able to get a mortgage for 6 years from declaring yourself bankrupt but 100k is a lot of debt to dump. By the end of the six years the market will have recovered, you'll have a flying job, cash in the bank and those fickle banks will be back for more.

rik2204

20th Sep 2008, 19:55

easyJet is already breaking into new markets (Italy for example! Alitalia struggling to survive)and is well known that strong low cost airlines get stronger during economic slowdown! (read what did easyJet and Ryanair in 2001!!)

rik2204

20th Sep 2008, 20:16

Preduk,
CTC on their website clearly write "we will not garantee you a job", but their reputation mostly depend on how good they perform (bad news fly faster than a jet) and few cadets left in bankruptcy is a very big problem for them!

one post only!

21st Sep 2008, 16:34

rik, you said it. If EZY is still growing why have they stopped taking CTC cadets on?? Could it be because they can fly for free for 6 months and then be replaced by the next fresh faced cadet? Or just replaced by a cheaper "product" from another provider? Or a bit of both!

JB is just trying to warn people before they make a big big BIG commitment. It looks like things are starting to change for CTC through no fault of their own. Be careful and weigh up all the options. If you think that in the same position (no income and £1100 a month loan payments) you could still afford to pay the loan, or just go bankrupt and start again, great. If not think about what you would do. Generate options!!! Fools rush in and all that.........

While times were good CTC was a close to a guaranteed job as you could get. For all intents and purposes it was. Things have changed though.

JB, I really hope this gets sorted out for you and the others involved. I hope CTC and BALPA look after you all.

BitMoreRightRudder

21st Sep 2008, 19:41

JB, I really hope this gets sorted out for you and the others involved. I hope CTC and BALPA look after you all.

I second that. I'm sure all flight deck at easy and certainly those of us who have got here via the cadet scheme will be keeping pressure on Balpa to ensure the company takes you back as soon as possible. Good luck.

Tommy_uk

22nd Sep 2008, 13:08

EvelcyclopS

22nd Sep 2008, 14:15

iCP is completely self funded i believe, CTC secure 30,000 quid of the bond in the cadet scheme but not iCP. Also, i dont think you do a PPL - you just go straight from foundation into CPL/IR, i think you then join the wings guys to complete your ATPL and AQC. that last bit of info might not be accurate tho- trying to remember from the phase 2 introduction.:ok:

Wee Weasley Welshman

22nd Sep 2008, 22:46

So. HSBC aren't loaning the money any more.

No airline is taking on cadets coming out of training.

Some of those already placed are not being offered jobs at the end of the six months.

I'd say this looks pretty serious for the scheme.

WWW

R T Jones

23rd Sep 2008, 00:59

Indeed WWW, in short that does seem the state of play at the moment. Partner airlines have announced recruitment freezes that will be reviewed in spring of next year. As one of the younger people without a degree going through I am rather concerned about these latest announcements. The training I've received so far has been very good, but without the HSBC loan, I would never have been able to come here. It certainly is not the time to be finishing with £1100 a month worth of repayments over your head and a job looking as much as a year away. Who knows, perhaps it will recover, but for the moment the winter is looking rather bleak.

one post only!

23rd Sep 2008, 07:33

Doom and gloom all said, those of you starting training at the moment may just pop out as things pick up and jobs slowly start to become available. While it’s not an ideal time I do think that you will have a much better chance of getting a job through CTC than on your own. You might find yourself waiting but some people through other schools etc might be waiting longer!!! It is in CTC's interests to place you and they are going to be doing their best to find you a job (though it may not be in the UK).

It is definitely a time to think very carefully about starting training, where you train and what you are going to do once you finish (finance wise). I have to be honest when I started I didn't think a great deal about what I would do if the wheels came off! I was fortunate that times were good.

Enjoy your training guys and good luck.

EvelcyclopS

23rd Sep 2008, 14:39

i dont know about anyone else, but i would love to be based in another country... easyjetschweiz anyone???

Kerosine

24th Sep 2008, 12:41

Considering I start in November, that post makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :p

It is right though, the debate is not CTC vs other FTO, it's FTO vs other day job.

Optimism and naivety are our most powerful assets :ok:

Rollerboy

24th Sep 2008, 13:24

Ok so all might be fine in the future for CTC cadets starting training now. However all cadets whether CTC or not have to remember that there are many pilots sitting in airline hold pools with hours, they will be first on an airline list before fresh faced cadets.

Does part of the CTC cadet qualification allow cadets to keep up their flying hours whilst sitting in the hold pool? I myself know of at least 8 pilots sitting in hold pools whilst flying with there current employer.

Finally there will be future positions for cadets when the job market picks up and no doubt CTC will be well placed to push their cadets but you have to remember that payscales may well be very different. Not to mention the fact you have to keep up regular payments, possibly before your first flying job.

The partner airline days as we know it may be numbered. Hopefully the respected company can come up with more fresh ideas.

My 2p worth.

Pilot Pete

24th Sep 2008, 13:44

The advantages to the airline of taking a young chap with a fresh license and paid for type rating from CTC are as follows:

Long term loyality - as the cadet is desperate to pay back their loan
Cheaper salary as the cadet starts at the beginning of the payscale
Known ability - coming from one of the worlds best intergrated courses
Ability to order pilots direct from CTC and have them delivered and trained in house.

1. Not necessarily any long term loyalty. Once they get some time on type and a better offer comes along they will consider it like any other pilot would. Even more true if they want to fly something bigger/ do longhaul.

2. Cheaper salary than a non-ctc pilot starting at the bottom of the payscale?

3. Known ability. Some airlines have questioned this over the last few years where several ctc cadets have been 'let go' during or after line training. Probably due to ctc standards slipping as the demand was so high. My airline has started up its TRTO again to do their own type rating training.

4. Can't see the great advantage there, indeed many trained by CTC are taught generic 'easy', 'jet2' or 'BA' sops as the trainers don't know the airlines' sops well enough.

I have done 2 jet type ratings with CTC, paid for by 2 different airlines and am currently a trainer with one of their (former) customer airlines who have been slowly getting less happy with the product. Indeed on my last type rating I think I taught the trainers more about my airline's ops than they taught me about the type.

I think what it comes more down to is CTC taking the financial risk if one of their pilots doesn't make the grade, and of course cost. That is what airlines liked about their product. If the product doesn't maintain its standard then the customers become less happy with that product. Now we have a recession the demand has fallen away completely. Over the next year or two this could be good for CTC as the supply will increase and therefore they can get more choosy again. This is what happened through the last downturn. However, the short term looks a bit bleaker for them in my opinion.

PP

singingpilot

24th Sep 2008, 15:25

Hello all.

I recently passed my phase 4 assessment and all seemed great!!

I then went for my interview with HSBC and was turned down...because of student loans/overdraft and what really got to me was that they also said it was because I have a degree in music not a flying related topic.

I accept that HSBC are pulling the loans in sept and that at the moment they have to be more careful with their money.

Having waffled on here is the question...does anyone out there have any suggestion/ideas of other possible places to get the all important 60k????

Chris

Rj111

24th Sep 2008, 17:52

Wow just thought i'd check up to see how CTC is reacting to the downturn. Incredible to see how much as changed really - the real advantages and attraction to it seem to have gone. A shame in a way for those talented potential pilots who can't finance it.

The best way forward seems to be leisurely modular training at a gentle pace with a job on the side. But hey if you just focus on enjoying the training and flying then the time will fly by and the market will be healthier before you know it.

isi3000

24th Sep 2008, 19:39

Are they just stopping the Professional Studies Loan for CTC students or in general?

99jolegg

24th Sep 2008, 19:48

In general, apparently.

hollingworthp

24th Sep 2008, 19:54

If you REALLY feel you have to do it right now, someone posted on the OAA forum 10 days ago here (http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4691) that a local Natwest just agreed a 75k training loan deferred till 6 months after graduation. Someone else posted about BoS but given the seismic events in the last week or so, that avenue may now be closed ;)

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Sep 2008, 23:03

Chaps,

There are far too many armchair pilots and others who have a chip on their shoulder concerning CTC with too much spare time on their hands, to post their pesimistic outlooks on the future for cadets of the future and those inside in the machine

I have no shoulder chips about CTC and have absolutely relished working with many of their cadets over many years. But.

Career prospects are a matter of opinion. The debt is real.

WWW

Ivor_Novello

29th Sep 2008, 17:49

Bit ironic reading people's comments about CTC's scheme not being a sponsorship.

It never was. Provided you passed the selection and training, you are buying into a job.

The debt is acceptable if you get a flying job at the end of it, and obviously it isn't if you don't. But it's the same scheme.

A lottery ticket costs the same whether you win or not.

I wouldn't be surprised if people are still going through the selection and paying 200 quid for half an hour of computer tests thinking that it's always the others that don't get a job, and it'll be alright in the end.

Good luck to all struggling. It's a bit disturbing knowing that potential airline professionals can't sleep at night because of debt. Even if one got a job, would still be in debt for years. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your flight.
I am a trainee ATCO now and I wouldn't be able to do my job if there was a 100 grand debt all the times in the back of my mind while looking at a radar screen...

PAJ

29th Sep 2008, 20:12

I think that's a pretty brash statement if I'm honest! Without wanting to fuel a massive debate, sponsorship can be defined in a number of ways, and it is not just simply the finance involved. Sponsorship is a way of showing support for people with potential, and although I do fully appreciate that finance is a huge motivator for those looking for sponsorship, there is more to it than that.

Having a significant debt is a very real consideration, but surely a cadet who is in employment doing what they love is not unsafe - I'd go with the contrary in fact! The packages offered by all the partner airlines are excellent, and fair enough, a decent chunk goes back into repayments, but you still are left with a very competitive typical graduate salary after repayments in year one! I agree that whilst waiting for a job, people may well lose sleep, but once the job is there, the hardest part is done and there is some security. Cadets will not want to lose the opportunity they have had to work so hard for for so long, so they will be the ones who are at dispatch early to be as prepared as possible, they will pay extra attention to detail....

....and the difference about wanting to be a pilot and an ATCO is that we get to see the amazing sunrises and sunsets and are completely responsible when we are bringing 50 tonnes of metal down the glideslope in crappy weather at nearly 200 mph....you guys sit in front of a computer screen in a dark room (not to be taken that I don't appreciate that what ATC do is challenging by the way!!)

BitMoreRightRudder

29th Sep 2008, 21:28

Even if one got a job, would still be in debt for years. I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your flight.

A pretty cheap shot Ivor. I don't get your logic. If someone is in debt then their ability to carry out their job is impaired? So everyone who has a mortgage is not to be trusted I take it?!

I've been paying my HSBC debt back for several years, I don't spare it any thought. I have a job that is as secure as i can expect in this industry. Believe me, the last thing on my mind when I disconnect the autopilot with 150 people sat behind me is my finances!

Your post is a bit too "I'm alright jack" for this thread and this forum when you consider the current problems people are facing, particularly those at the end of their training.

Farrell

30th Sep 2008, 00:37

EasyJet have laid off over 20 of their CTC pilots this month from Gatwick.

They will finish up at the end of October.

Ivor_Novello

30th Sep 2008, 17:04

BMRR Wasn't meant to be a cheap shot at all, and apologise if anyone believed so. I just meant that, as you guys know much better than me, human factors can play a part in incidents and mistakes and financial instability can, in some people, be a cause for stress.

Trust me, I am not one of the shoulder chip brigade. I did fail stage 3 a year and a half ago and, despite a solid aviation background, a private licence, experience in airline ground ops and good results in the aptitude tests (according to their feedback, not mine) CTC believed that I wasn't suitable for team work and invited me not to apply ever again. I have been involved in team work all of my adult life, so something must have really gone wrong in that interview....

Now I could be in the situation of being at the end of training with no job and lots of debt, and I would hate it. Also because I could have been in the same situation with self sponsored training, ending up equally without a job, but at least spending much less. So in the end I guessing failing the selection was a bit of a blessing in disguise. At least for me, and the way I perceive debt. Others can be more relaxed about it, and can handle the financial stress better.

And PAJ, I'll give you that, the last 400 feet can be quite interesting sometimes ;)

regards

BitMoreRightRudder

30th Sep 2008, 22:56

Good luck with ATC Ivor. I find it suprising that you got through the NATS (I presume it's NATS) selection, which I personally found a heck of a lot tougher than CTC, and yet CTC said no. They make some strange decisions.

To be fair you get to tell us what to do now!

The African Dude

30th Sep 2008, 23:27

djfingerscrossed is correct. eJ has said that they have been very happy with the CTC cadets and expect to offer positions eventually. It's just a reflection of the market situation at the moment, unfortunately. The initial 6 months with eJ is technically part of the Wings course; it just so happens that in the past, all cadets have stayed on with their line experience airline on a permanent basis.

Farrell

1st Oct 2008, 01:40

It's just a reflection of the market situation at the moment

My point exactly.

flightless_bird

3rd Oct 2008, 11:08

Can someone tell me the difference between CTC iCp and the wings scheme? Surely if they have lost the loan agreement these are exactly the same?

Also could someone please explain what the CAA licensing fees are, and how much they could equate to?

Finally what are peoples thoughts on the cityjet wings scheme? The salary does not sounds very promising at all, I could get substantially more by just sticking with engineering.

Thanks

My understanding about the major difference between the Wings and the iCP scheme is that the Wings scheme includes the MCC and JOC and that CTC will try to place you with one of their partner airlines and that the iCP course only takes you to getting your CPL/IR. (I'm not going to debate whether or not CTC can currently place cadets in this climate, that's another topic for discussion.) And obviously you are free to apply for the CTC ATP scheme after you have finished the iCP course but that is another process with additional costs as far as I remember.

I'd imagine CAA licensing fees are the fees you pay for your licence issue. I'd start by looking on the CAA website to find out how much they are. Their website is a nightmare to find anything on though. The best way I have found is to click on 'Shortcut Web Addresses' and then find what you're looking for on the page which displays. In this case you're probably after Flight Crew Licensing - Charges in which case try this:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_SCharges_prof_05.pdf

With regards to the CityJet wings scheme, from what I have heard the base salary is low but the flight allowances bring it up substantially to a level comparable with cadet pilot salaries paid by other airlines.

jaimz1982

3rd Oct 2008, 16:10

Hi,

I'm due out on the CP 68, but still awaiting the funds from the HSBC legal dept. I was on the CP67, but missed that one.

Does anyone out there have any info on the groundschool, can anyone enlighten me whether it's self study / classroom, etc. I've heard it's Bristol, has anyone started doing the EASA sylabus? has it started yet? Does it even exist? I've been looking over some old Oxford Manuals so any advice is appreciated.

Can't wait to get out there and meet everyone,

Jim

one post only!

4th Oct 2008, 09:15

EZY are now saying that the cadets laid off may not get priority over new non-type rated cadets doing the 6 month line training with CTC when recruitment re-starts. This means you could have a situation where you get 6 months experience and are then sent back to CTC to find another job while your mate 6 months behind you takes your place for his experience! Bit of a c*nts trick if you ask me!!!!

Oh for a crystal ball to predict when to start training to come out just at the right point when it picks up again!!!

Have a good think about finances though if you are starting or in the system now, you may find a few tight months coming up. Fore warned is fore armed and all that....

G-BFUN

4th Oct 2008, 11:52

Hey Everyone
Forgive my ignorance if this has already been mentioned but had a quick look and couldn't find anything.
I always considered CTC Wings to be different than other integrated courses as they got you to that employment stage much quicker.
My question is... Is CTC Wings any different now to any other integrated course, eg. Oxford/ Jerez?

If these people are not getting empolyed, do CTC renew their IRs as they are "sponsored" cadets or do they just vanish from the hold pool after 6 months.

If you are in the hold pool after finishing a course with CTC can you find your own job with a small air-taxi company or will that be against the T+Cs of contract and they have to place you with an airline?

Just wondering if anyone here knew the answers.

flightless_bird

4th Oct 2008, 12:12

...
Does anyone out there have any info on the groundschool, can anyone enlighten me whether it's self study / classroom, etc. I've heard it's Bristol, has anyone started doing the EASA sylabus? has it started yet? Does it even exist? I've been looking over some old Oxford Manuals so any advice is appreciated.
...

Assuming that your CP is an integrated (as opposed to modular) CP then you will do classroom-based study with self-study on top of it. You will start with study to sit the NZ PPL exams (which will allow you to fly in NZ) and then after that do the UK ATPL exam study. (There are a couple of CPs that are in NZ now were changed from integrated to modular for various reasons and their study is solely self-study - although they can go to the classroom sessions if they so desire.)

Unless something drastic changes then it will be the Bristol Ground School course that you will be following. It is a good course and the instructors at Bristol for the brush up course are particularly good.

The EASA syllabus kicks in from about October so since your exams will be in 2009 you will almost definitely be studying the new syllabus (which I've heard is supposed to be harder).

PAJ

4th Oct 2008, 13:58

G-BFUN, The CTC course is similar to the Oxford/Jerez courses in that they will train you from ab-initio with the focus of training to get you into the right hand seat of a jet. How the syllabus is broken down will be different on each course, but you have to do the same skills tests and theory exams. Particular to CTC, they expand the multi syllabus far beyond the JAR-FCL minimum requirements (I have finished with about 65 hrs MEP time, with a further 50ish hours in FNTP II sims).

I belive both Oxford and Jerez, like CTC, include the JOC and MCC at the end of the course. This is the point where CTC becomes highly unique. CTC's partner airlines then take the cadets through type rating, base training and line training so you effectively finish the course with your CPL/IR with ATPL theory and MCC, but you also have a type rating and potentially 500 hours on type. Traditionally, all cadets have been fully employed by their partner airline at the end of the line training phase, but EZ haven't offered jobs to the most recent graduates unfortunately. Hopefully this is just a timing thing and not a trend, and the guys get something sorted soon.

So that's the main difference. Cost-wise, I think it works out cheaper at CTC (although I know some of the costs have risen lately). When I started, the bond was £60k (which you were able to get fully unsecured), Foudation course was about £4500 and then other costs such as insurance were maybe another £1300. That includes accommodation throughout the course (although living costs are on top of this) and use of CTC vehicles in NZ. Then once doing your type rating and line training with an airline, CTC pay you £1000 per month, maybe £6500 in total which is probably just about tax-free. If you deduct this from your costs, you are basically just paying £60k for your training. I can't give any really accurate figures, but I believe OAA's costs to be about £68,000. Then you have accommodation costs to consider whilst doing the UK phases which I seem to remember being something around the £5000 mark, but again, I am not certain. You don't have the type rating with this obviously, so if you have to fork out for one to get a job, you will potentially end up spending £30,000 more. CTC is a fantastic way into the RHS relatively quickly, but the bouyant market conditions are gone which will make things interesting for everyone. Hope that helps.

Gar

4th Oct 2008, 17:36

Oh dear, it's been 6 months since CTC said they would re-interview me in 6 months, so I thought I had better get back into the swing of things. Not looking good for me being about £61k short of £60k.

I'm actually just curious as to what the re-interview process is: do CTC contact you or do you have to get in touch with them? Muchos gracias

Gav28

4th Oct 2008, 19:56

Normally they will call/email you, sounds like things have changed a bit in the last few months since i got a reapplication call.

Day_Dreamer

4th Oct 2008, 22:10

With the loss of the unsecured HSBC loan.
Total lack of permanent recruitment from the CTC schemes.
An uncertain future, at least for the next 12 months.
Is this the end of the CTC as we have seen it over the years.
They have got rich over the years by training cadets who earn a pitance in their first six months after training (£1000 per month plus flight pay) while the cadets have paid at least that for their JOC course etc.

The only benefits from CTC were their track record in job placement, and the unsecured loan.
Both now either at an end or in question.
When the upturn arrives there will be enough qualified pilots out there to fill the available jobs, so will the CTC cadets be of value to those hiring, I doubt that the accountants who run the airlines will see them in such a favourable light, as cheap labour.
CTC courses will stagnate along with the other training schools, as funding becomes more difficult to obtain.
And what value is CTC without their job placement after training ?

For those of you who have failed CTC selection, look elsewhere as there are better options and the integrated course providers are seeking links with partner airlines in the same way that CTC has over the years.
Selection is not perfect, and is more often flawed with the percieved ideas of the schools as to what is required.
I have known many who have failed in some aspect and who have then taken different routes to their fATPL, they have become useful crew members and later Captains.

Don't be sucked in by the CTC hype, there is no guarantee that they will do any better in the future than the other established training schools.
And their product which was once one of the highest in the industry when the numbers were small, is now no different to the average of the other schools.

CTC are your Wings about to be clipped

Polorutz

5th Oct 2008, 12:15

Daydreamer, If I had to start a career right now as an airline pilot, and I chose an integrated school, I'd still choose CTC, at the end of your training you have the support of the school until the end, it does not matter whether 6 months or 1 year from graduation has passed, they will still support you and place you when the positions become available, the loans not being unsecured anymore is a factor that has more to do with the current market than with CTC itself.

The product is still there, granted when the upturn commences there will be some more experienced pilots and CTC will not have those first places, but after that, when the airlines start looking for FO's and they get their pick, those 6 months on low pay will still sound better than any cadet from other schools so there will still be an advantage for them.

Also CTC might come up with more partnerships, maybe outside europe where the economic climate is still good, they are doing all they can.

I'd look at it the other way around, to anyone wanting to join CTC this is by far the best moment to do it, you might have some trouble securing the financial side but you'll get that in any school, if you can get in, after your training is done in 2 years chances are those same relationships that made CTC what it is will still be there, maybe even some new ones...

You have to be in the game to win it, there's no point on watching on the sidelines, I am in CTC and personally going to come out with a fATPL and 200 odd hours, a lot of debt and not much else at the moment, but at least I know that there are people behind me that are trying their best to get me to the right hand seat, I have the same prospects as anyone from any other integrated school, the way I see it, if I came out of another school I'd still have to come up from the bottom, maybe instruct, then some years later get into the jets after many battles and a turboprop stint, CTC was the easy route and it has now become a bit harder, so what?? Im' pretty sure we'll all get there, this year, next year, maybe 2 years, I could still instruct and wait until CTC places me in the future, whenever that might be.

Day_Dreamer

5th Oct 2008, 15:30

There is NO guarantee that CTC will be able to place its students now or in the future and as for their support well, they can only give that support if there are positions to fill.
Will they renew your IR when it expires, give you time and retraining to keep up your skill levels ?
The OAA APP course offers all this as part of their skills net scheme, and they are now part of GECAT who have renamed themselves Oxford Aviation Academy.
FTE are linking with a couple of major companies and will soon offer the same as CTC to their Cadets.

The CTC Hype has been swallowed by all for several years while the industry was on the up post 9/11, now they have less to offer a prospective student.
Their holding pool will be overflowing soon and they cannot and financially will not be able to support everyone in it.
Also what about the Easyjet cadets who are coming back into the pool after their 6 months with Easy, qualified some experience and jobless.
Will CTC renew their LPC and OPC a year down the line ?
And there could be more 6 months from now !!

Cling to the hope that the upturn will be just around the corner, but will CTC place their more current students before those long term swimmers ? Probably providing there are places to fill !!
The SSTR is well established and CTC will find it hard to compete with this market, and must adapt quickly or remain behind the Integrated schools who are already far advanced in their planning for the long term.

For those in CTC training and holding pools, the bottom line is still profit not as they would make you believe the Cadet.
The moral of this post is Don't live in hope that CTC will come through for you, get proactive and seek that job yourself.
Dont expect that the first position will be in a nice comfortable jet !!! ANY Job is better than NONE.

As far as recruiting is concerned I would rather take an XL unemployed pilot especially those who can through OAA recently than a CTC cadet.
But I am not a recruitment manager yet.

hollingworthp

5th Oct 2008, 15:50

OAA have not provided IR renewal as part of the skills net for some time - they now have an extended repayment plan for failure up to an including CPL (through lack of skill rather than application).

HERE (http://ask.oxfordaviation.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4685&p=26173&hilit=skills#p26173) is a post on the OAA forums detailing the changes to skills net

PAJ

5th Oct 2008, 16:49

I'm not sure this is printed anywhere but I do belive that CTC will sort out IR renewal when doing your type rating. Cadets are responsible for keeping themselves current otherwise though.

Tommy_uk

5th Oct 2008, 17:02

I cant find any information on the website regarding the final training in the UK? Is accommodation also provided at this stage at no extra cost?

Day_Dreamer

5th Oct 2008, 18:21

Thanks for the info.
This strengthens my case against CTC, if OAA with their resources can no longer support skills renewal then will CTC be able to cover all their cadets who are swimming or about to finish ? probably not as I have said before the bottom line is what matters to them the most.

Allocate_on_Arrival

5th Oct 2008, 18:43

CTC will renew your IR if you become uncurrent in the pool. They have also provided some SIM refreshers for those in the hold for more than 6 months.

Don't get why you're so negative about CTC Day Dreamer, when you clearly don't know the full story. Has CTC left a bitter taste in your mouth?

Why try and put off potiential pilots with scare tatics. For all you (I and everyone else) know the airline industry could be booming in 1/2years time. No one can know or even make a sensible guess.

Plus, its not all doom and gloom like you suggest, recruitment is occuring and EJ haven't 'layed off' pilots. See BALPA website for full story. Plus even though they weren't contractually bound to do so, CTC have done everything possible to support them and continue to do so. They don't just forget about you just because your in the hold or have been placed. That's the difference, they actually care. Its good for them, their cadets and most importantly, their partner airlines.

Factual info only please := Speculation is for fools (and SLF)

P.S. As it has been said so many times before, its not a definate job. However 100% of cadets have been placed (other than those is hold pool... durr :})

SA242

6th Oct 2008, 09:46

Allocate on Arrival, thank you for a sensible post! Day Dreamer, you clearly don't know the entire story of what is going on in CTC or in OAA for that matter. The entire industry is what it is and no training provider has escaped unscathed. No point just posting for the sake of scaring potential pilots looking for info without knowing anything yourself.

Allocate_on_Arrival

6th Oct 2008, 10:37

S'alright, its nice to inject a bit of reality once in a while!

burty83

8th Oct 2008, 09:50

Day Dreamer I'm not sure why you are so bitter with CTC.

"For those of you who have failed CTC selection, look elsewhere as there are better options"

Can you tell me where, or is it on the planet you're on? Like Allocate On Arrival, I'm just wondering why and how such a bitter taste has been left in your mouth.

It has been unfortunate what has happened with the cadets who have recently gone to easyjet but that's what has happened to cadets who have recently gone to one airline. What about the cadets who have recently gone to TCX or Monarch or even those who are now flying for BA like myself? In fact, there are cadets soon to be starting type ratings with TCX and those who have just started with easyjet on the 737. The industry has been hit hard but it will pick itself up again but no one knows yet when that will be.

As Allocate On Arrival has mentioned CTC will renew your IR and if you haven't flown for a while and you get put onto a TR course, you will have the opportunity to use the sims at CTC to refresh your valuable skills for nothing. Does this happen at OAA? No. Because OAA will get you qualified and then that's their job done. You will find yourself also paying more for the services.

For those looking at CTC I would strongly recommend not being put off by those who have been left with a bitter taste in their mouth. At times like these it can be seen as a gamble but you are still 18+ months away from actually finishing your training. I'm not removing any health warnings that go with the scheme as it is a lot of money and commitment. When airlines aren't seeking to absorb the hold pool (see what I did there), times can be hard but that's when you temp elsewhere for a bit like I did, until it's your time.

Less scare stories please as this world has enough of those as it is.

Pilot Junior

8th Oct 2008, 15:31

I have never posted before, but have read a lot of what has been said over the last few weeks. I have been under CTCs selection process for this time, and obviously been able to use this forum for useful information. I feel it is a shame I had to pick through the detritus that has been left by those who have attempted to pass CTCs selection scheme and failed.

Those of you who have abused this facility because of your ill-fortune are what can only be described as the lowest of the low, and quite frankly I am not surprised that CTC has been able to weed you out. It gives me great comfort that people of your nature will struggle to attain what we have all set out to achieve.

I would like to mention some key points that I hope future applicants will note:
1) If any negative post on this forum has ever made you doubt wanting to be a pilot…… don’t bother applying.
2) If you are worrying about the current financial climate of concern and the knock on effect it has on the aviation industry, in particular the available job market........Don’t! What’s the point? No-one can predict what will happen in 2 years following your training. You only live once and who knows when you might get hit by that bus.
3) If you truly want this then go for it! Listen to the people who have done it successfully and are living the dream.

But the intelligent, and in turn more likely to be successful, applicants, will already know this. So I’ll stop teaching granny to suck eggs, and will look forward to seeing you out in New Zealand (I’ll be the one with the big smile on my face).

For those of you who have posted negative comments purely because you are bitter, when you’re thinking about your next post …… just switch your PC off and get on with your own life.

There will be no more posts from me. GOOD LUCK EVERYONE. :ok:

BitMoreRightRudder

8th Oct 2008, 20:51

Thats all very nice and good luck with the course. You are firmly in posession of those tinted specs though. I'd leave the preaching until you have finished the course, got a job and had a few years of experience in the industry.

If you truly want this then go for it! Listen to the people who have done it successfully and are living the dream.

I've done it and I'm a few years into airline flying. And it's a great job, and a great feeling when all the hard work pays off.

However.

The debt is big and it takes a long time to pay it off. Which is fine, if you get a job quick and/or your airline doesn't totally exploit you, as my employers have just done with 22 CTC cadets.

I'm not being negative or a miserable git, I'm just telling it how it is, from a view inside the industry. No-one knows how long this downturn will last. By all means give CTC a go, but all this "follow your dream" and "go for it" stuff is being given to you by guys who are understandably buoyant at the prospect of New Zealand. The cold hard fact is that this is a seriously bad time to be spending life changing amounts of money on the proviso that you will get a job which right now doesn't exist.

Good luck to all the CTC guys.

one post only!

9th Oct 2008, 08:40

I kind of agree with a few of the "negative" posts on here. I think it’s important to have perspective and varied inputs. Otherwise you can develop rose tinted vision!
While Day Dreamer does seem to have a thing about CTC I do agree with one thing he said, all that matters is bottom line to them. They are not training you out of the goodness of their hearts. They do not have some great philanthropic reason to get you a (f)ATPL.
However keeping the bottom line in the black means looking after your cadets! They need to look after you and place good quality people to keep the brand looking good and to keep people coming through the door.
I have said this before, now is not a time to rush in to anything and I think CTC are going to hit hard times placing people but I still think you are safer with CTC than other training providers. No-one is going to find it easy placing people in the next year or so but I reckon CTC will find it less difficult!
I don't think it is a debate on CTC or someone else, more to start now or wait a while. There are cheaper alternatives out there but I do think with CTC you pay a bit more for a slightly better chance of getting a jet job. Only you can decide if it is worth spending the extra money to increase your chances of employment.

I also think it’s important to have negative posts because reading them might put some people off starting training. They might not think the risk is worth it. Others however will read all the doom and gloom and think I still want to do it. That’s great because those are the ones we need in aviation. The truly committed ones. The ones that really want it.
All I would say to those individuals though is think through your finances, now and in the future. Even when placed with an airline (for the 6 months while still with CTC) think about cars, houses etc. Don't over commit etc.

If you really really want it, still start with CTC but think it through very carefully. If you have any nagging doubts don’t bother. You will probably realise you made the right decision in the long run.

Whatever you do, don't rush in. Read the positive "just go for it posts" but also read the negative ones. Think about it all carefully.

If you were about to fly an approach and there was a huge CB sat on 5 mile final would you press on with a positive attitude or would you listen to some negative info and delay starting the approach till things improve??

Whatever you do, do it armed with all the information available so you can make an informed decision! You never know, starting now could place you nicely for an industry upturn but no-one really knows what will happen. It could get better, it could get much worse. What happens if you are in the hold pool for 12 months??? Plan for the worst case.

P.S it is well worth it when you do make it (long days and shift work not withstanding!!) :)

P.P.S I now have cramp from my longest post ever!!

BitMoreRightRudder

9th Oct 2008, 14:21

Very diplomatic mate ;)

EvelcyclopS

9th Oct 2008, 22:32

"If you were about to fly an approach and there was a huge CB sat on 5 mile final would you press on with a positive attitude or would you listen to some negative info and delay starting the approach till things improve??"

huge Cilla Blacks on 5 mile finals are impossible to remove forever, they are like a cancer, you think youve got rid of the ginger scouser, but then no - Blind Date starts on prime time TV on saturday nights, right after gladiators. Then whe she decides she's bled the dessert dry on that occasion, you think 'great, she's :mad: gone', but no, she does a cheap advert for life insurance that will forever remain on daytime TV, just inbetween property ladder and countdown and filling her up with daily royalties so she can propergate her jewellry collection. How am i supposed to get my fill of pretentious etymology and beer-mat mortgage advice now eh?

See what you've gone and done?
I hope you're all pleased

one post only!

10th Oct 2008, 07:35

Everytime I see a CB now it will turn ginger right before my eyes and shout "Surprise Surprise"!!!! :}

G-BFUN

10th Oct 2008, 10:52

Evelcyclops
I will never be able to look at a CB in the same light again! lol your post made me laugh!

EvelcyclopS

10th Oct 2008, 16:51

lol cheers, i do try

komac2

23rd Oct 2008, 06:54

10 October 2008
DHL AIR UK AND EASYJET SWITZERLAND NEW CTC WINGS PARTNER AIRLINES
CTC Wings now enjoys partnerships with ten major airlines around the world, with the new addition of DHL Air
and easyJet Switzerland.
These two join CTC’s long-standing partner airlines British Airways, CityJet, easyJet, Jet2.com, Jetstar Pacific,
Monarch, Thomas Cook and Thomsonfly to provide even greater opportunity for the 168 cadet pilots being trained
annually by CTC Aviation.
To date, 100% of CTC Wings cadets have obtained a job as an airline pilot with one of the company’s partner
airlines upon successful completion of training.
The initial group of DHL Air cadets commence training at CTC’s Crew Training Centre-Hamilton this month.
The first easyJet Switzerland CTC Wings pilot is close to completion of his Airbus A319 type-rating training at
CTC’s full flight simulator facilities near Southampton, UK and will begin line training in Geneva shortly.
Lee Woodward, Head of CTC Wings and Executive Director for CTC, said: “Whilst we have been consistently
placing pilots with our partner airlines over the past five years, it is a significant development for CTC Wings and a
true reflection of the calibre of our cadets that DHL has joined CityJet in preselecting their pilots from the outset.
“easyJet Switzerland operates independently of the UK organisation. They were impressed by the our cadets and
this led to a request for us to supply cadets to the Swiss operation direct. We look forward to placing more pilots
with both DHL Air and easyJet Switzerland in the near future as well as continuing our supply to our long standing
partners.”
CTC has been providing training support for both DHL and easyJet Switzerland through their Type Rating
Training Organisation (TRTO) operation for several years. This new partnerships with CTC Wings is seen as a
strengthening of already established relationships.
Tom Mackle, Director Flight Operations for DHL Air said: “CTC has a great reputation for quality training and
developing innovative solutions. We are working to crew a growing fleet over the next couple of years and will be
looking to resource this with a combination of direct entry and cadet pilots. The CTC Wings pilots will form a
significant part of our future crew composition.”
Licensed pilots from easyJet Switzerland have attended a variety of training courses with CTC over the years;
from type-ratings, through command skills development and Instructor training to
Examiner Standardisation. It is a natural transition for CTC to supply cadets to the airline into the future.
For more information log on to AIRLINE PILOT TRAINING (http://www.ctcwings.com) or CTC Aviation Group plc - Home (http://www.ctcaviation.com)
ENDS

http://www.ctcwings.co.nz/pdfs/news/DHL_Air_and_easyJet_Switzerland_parter_up_with_CTC_Wings_10o ct08.pdf

kwb911

23rd Oct 2008, 07:28

Also news on long term contract with openskies

http://www.ctcaviation.com/pdf/OpenSkies_7Oct08.pdf

Wee Weasley Welshman

23rd Oct 2008, 07:48

I have heard but not had confirmed that Monarch have followed easyJets lead in declining to take on their CTC cadets currently on 6 months initial trial.

Guys, do not delude yourselves. There are hundreds of CTC cadets either being returned, in the pool or in the training system. If no airline steps forward in 2009 and takes a big chunky number of them then I very much doubt anyone will be keeping anyone current.

Job prospects are a matter of opinion; the debt is real.

WWW

tom775257

23rd Oct 2008, 10:59

Yes WWW, Monarch are not extending the CTC cadet contracts after the 6 months are up.

Wee Weasley Welshman

24th Oct 2008, 10:40

captainflash - no its not a cut and paste. Its a paraphrase of Meryn Kings wrly accurate statement to the Commons committe when discussing house prices; that values are a matter of opinion but the debt is real.

If there's one thing sadder than me spending time warning Wannabes of the tragic mistakes they may shortly take its you popping up every couple of weeks to have a go at me for doing so. On Oct 10th you said:

Mr WWW must have made a typo, 30BC is more of the realm when he was born.

Although granted, he knows his stuff on the most part, and he does indeed make many good points, it is fair to say after considering his posts, that he is a PESTIMISTIC type of chap.

He's done it the hard way, been an instructor for years, worked his way up etc, and bollocks to anyone trying to do it any other way. The world is doomed, you'll never get a job, become a train driver brigade, things aren't as good these days as they were in the past, I've been around and see things before so I must be right, in summary a stale old fart stuck in his ways, and unopen to change or evolving with the times.

WWW: do you live with you mother?

You were shot down for being both entirely mistaken and rude. So why don't you change the friggin record, pal?

Share with us just where you think the CTC cadets will be finding employment in 2009. Contruct an argument as to why 12 months from now is going to be a good time for job hunting. Explain how the worst crisis Western commercial aviation has seen for a generation is actually nothing to worry Wannabes about.

Go on.

Thought not.

WWW

student88

24th Oct 2008, 10:49

Maybe if people started listening and didn't keep ignoring the facts the record may change!

S88:ok:

Tiger_ Moth

24th Oct 2008, 12:46

I think WWW has wisdom beyond his years. I did laugh when I found out how young he was!

Let's not shoot the messenger here.

BitMoreRightRudder

24th Oct 2008, 15:05

Captain Flash

If you ever make it to easyJet when you are done with CTC and fly with the welshman in the flesh, you will find he is very supportive of the cadets.

Also you might want to have a chat with the ctc guys who have been sent packing by easyJet recently before you go singing CTC praises. Their treatment leaves a lot to be desired and though CTC cannot be blamed for the current problems, it would appear not a great deal is being done to support them either. Easyjet have behaved disgracefully, and to my mind (ex-ctc and now easyjet) CTC have let them down massively. :(

student88

24th Oct 2008, 21:59

I've never had the pleasure of meeting anyone on these forums. I just cant understand how one can get angry with people who are only trying to help. Do people give advice with a hidden agenda? I doubt it. WWW or anyone alike don't have reasons to want to put people off training for their own benefit. It's not like he's making money from doing it!

"Be careful who's advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it"

And remember, if you don't like what you hear, be mature, polite and ignore it. Just don't throw it back in their faces, it's not nice.

S88:ok:

Kerosine

24th Oct 2008, 23:13

Where did this thread all go wrong? Why is it now dominated by whining over-sensitive types who have far too many battles to fight and not enough ammunition?
In true Pprune style, this thread has degraded from a useful resource for all those who are interested in CTC Wings, into a amateurish debate on economics, a mud slinging match, a more or less typical Pprune battle of 'wits' and oneupmanship.
Please, if you wish to argue this out with WWW, take it to the 'Downturn upon us' thread. For all the sh*t he cops for on these threads for being a 'whinger', he appears to have a better understanding of our economy than most.

Conversely, this is not a thread full of children that requires an 'adult' to step in and tell us how the world works, we can for the most part make a reasoned decision by our oown means. We need no knights in shining armour; yes we want to be informed, but not preached at in every thread we happen upon.

And while I'm here, what is the obsession with always having the last word? Please understand when a particular debate has reached a close, recognise when an exchange has no further value and have some consideration for those who have to sift through your bickering to find the useful information.

Wee Weasley Welshman

25th Oct 2008, 09:33

The original MkI thread had 1515 posts and this is the 2,502 post on the MkII. That's getting close to a Wannabe record. :ok:

Peace has been declared following the last 72hrs of hostilities and I want nothing more than for this thread to return to being a useful resource for current and prospective CTC cadets.

Many thanks to all contributors. Some recent posts have been edited or deleted, apologies made and hands have been shaken so the thread may make little sense to those arriving for the first time. ;)

WWW

scallaghan

25th Oct 2008, 12:40

Does CTC still do the CTC wings ATP program?

Read on the website they closed it in Feb...

Day_Dreamer

25th Oct 2008, 13:47

CTC Hype again !!!
Talk is cheap and there is nothing like free publicity.

DHL Air are over crewed on F/O's at this time with 10 already selected pilots in the holding pool.
All recent joiners must relocate to Leipzig from December at their own expense.
Could you do that on £1000 per month plus flight pay circa £450.

Monarch and Easyjet returning cadets after 6 months, All other airlines facing a downturn in recruitment.
A surplus of experienced pilots on the market, more CTC cadets coming into the holding pool, soon we will need to block off the lake district to hold all the swimmers.

The 100% placement record is also not strictly true as I have spoken to people who have not been placed, or who have been thrown aside during or upon completing training. (CTC said they did not make their internal grades)
This reflects not just on CTC but some of the other establishments as well, they all have to protect their bottom line and reputations.

You may well have a better chance of a job after CTC training but in the present climate I doubt the difference will be very great.
Should you be an integrated or modular student or for that matter experienced the next 12 to 18 months will find the job market getting smaller, terms and conditions reducing and the SSTR route becoming more difficult to fund.

What I am saying here is that whatever route you take it wont be easy to become employed after training and CTC is certainly well connected, but so are the other major training schools.

Review your options carefully, and after taking out the hype and claims make your own decision on where to train.
Sterling (£) down against the Dollar ($) and Euro (€) which will raise the costs of training, thank whatever god you pray to that oil is now $65 per barrel.

The only axe I have to grind with CTC is their placement of cadets at a salary of £1000 for 6 months, with today's costs for training and living how can a newbee exist and pay back their training ?

Good Luck and go for your dream, If you have the motivation you will get there in the end.
Remember that there is more to aviation than the airlines, look to the air taxi, and other general aviation fields for that first job.

Captain Spam Can

25th Oct 2008, 20:00

Daydreamer, as a current ctc cadet in the hold pool, i can tell you that we can afford to pay back the loans because we get a full salary after 6 months. We dont pay back our loans during the 6 months, then after 6 months we get the equivilant to a full salary..i.e its slightly reduced but we get £1000 on top tax free for loan repayments, it works out around £2800 a month in the first year so you will come out with £1800 in hand. thats for year 1. Based on EZY

I feel im in a good position as no one is hiring and when they do i wont have to apply, i just wait my turn in the cue for the job. So there is less worry. I have the licence in hand and recieved good training. Im annoyed that all this has happened when ive finished training but its not CTC's fault the downturn in the economy, it would be interesting to hear about how Oxford grads have been getting on since april time???? any ideas anyone. Our guys have been still going to British airways up unitl the recruitment freeze.

Day_Dreamer

25th Oct 2008, 23:10

You have missed the point
Its the fact that you only get £1000 in each of the first 6 months that matters.
Every Airline pays better than that and our CTC cadets are still being supported from home until the 6 months are up then they get a similar increase in salary.
In effect you subsidise your own type rating.
Take a standard HSBC loan defered for 6 months, its still adding interest and usually cannot be defered longer than 9 months and is now secured on property, so the trick of going bankrupt to pay it off means who ever's property its secured on would still end up paying.
Its high time that you got a cadet rate for the job, not a pittance.
The SSTR's of Ryanair get paid more than that after release of their line training F/O cover, and within the 6 months are on about £3.2K per month.
Acording to figures from this very site.
Flybe new hires ex FTE / OAA about £2.0K per month and DHL recently mentioned here are on £2.3K.
I hate to see young pilots entering the job on very low salaries.
Just an aside when I started in 1972 senior cabin crew were on £1500 per year and a new second officer on £1200 per year, which was the full rate for the job.

In answer to your question OAA students have been getting jobs at Flybe, BA, Ryanair and others up until about a few weeks ago when the slump really hit home. Now its a different matter.

If you can get a job anywhere in aviation at the moment go for it.

jaimz1982

25th Oct 2008, 23:11

Captain Spam Can,

I'm just about to start CTC on the ICP scheme, looks like ill be going out on 31st December CP 69 still waiting for the agreement with HSBC to be sorted. (What a day to go, and maybe an ironic course number to go on?)

I know or have heard that no ICP chap has finished yet, but have you heard any rumblings on how it could affect us, we're not quite on par with the wings guys when it comes to the final part of the course.

Also whats this bashing? I see the legendary WWW at it again, seems I missed it all! (Thank god!)

Jim

Captain Spam Can

26th Oct 2008, 08:06

Hi daydreamer,

i can understand where your comming from but what im trying to say is i understand flybe offer around 2k a month but we will be on 3k a month as we get an extra 1k for the bond, if i or an oxford grad got a job at flybe then we would get 2k a month full stop and would have to pay 1k back out of that for the bond or the 80k that it cost to go OAT. so we would be on 1k for a lot longer than 6 months!!. I have thought about looking elsewhere but taking a job on something less than a 737 or a320 wouldnt pay the bills and still allow me to live comfortably due to the size of the bond. 1K a month for 6 months is hard i know but its only for 6 months and i dont have to fork out 30k for a type rating. Im not starting any debate on weather thats right or wrong im just saying from my personal situation, i dont have 30k in the bank...come to think of it i never had the 60k in the bank to start with, so without ctc id still be an office monkey 'Day dreaming'...(no pun intended..lol).
OAT seem to be in the same situation then, as BA have been taking up until a few weeks ago, ryanair...well anyone with 30k can go there. their not fussy about weather your integrated or modular, and flybe. CTC people as i said have been going BA who wanted that, most are holding out in the EZY hold pool and a few went to cityjet. TCX have taken about 10 of us guys on this month.

Jaimz1982, there wont be any effect on you as you wont enter the hold pool as you are Icp, it will just be like going to OAT where you will recieve top class training and it will be upon you to apply to the airlines yourself, and CTC will provide a report for you to the airlines. I wouldnt worry about jobs yet in your situation, in my time at CTC the airlines went up and down a dozen times...it changes overnight, just worry about not getting 'PR2'd..lol and enjoy yourself!!!