The CTC Wings (Cadets) Thread - Part 2. [Archive] - Page 16

Bealzebub

5th Feb 2011, 14:05

How / when exactly is the security bond repayed to you? The information from CTC is about as clear as mud when it comes to YOUR money.

Probably never! Other people will be able to give you a better explanation, but this money represents your training costs. As such it becomes their money and not yours. However it is very dependant upon what happens to you at the end of the course, as to what happens to this "bond."

In better times, certain partner airlines would take a number of cadets on a six months probationary period. During this time those cadets were not paid a salary by the airline, but received a small sum of money from their bond (around £1000 or so, a month) in addition to expenses (flight pay, allowances etc.) from the customer airline. At the end of the probationary period, those cadets who were kept on by the airline were paid a salary, (usually a cadet level salary for a two or three year qualifying period.) Their training bond was also part of the package in that it was (in effect) purchased by the customer airline. It then provided a level of security for the airline. These "bond" sums were then repaid to the cadet in monthly amounts over a fixed period.

In recent years, there have been very few airline customers prepared to adopt these arrangements. Indeed there have been very few customers at all. In order to keep things moving, new customer arrangements have been agreed with various airlines. These arrangements with names such as "flexicrew" have often been on significantly less favourable terms to the cadet. However, they have provided a significant source of employment and experience in a marketplace that has become very arid.

With these schemes, the "bond" is not transferred or purchased by the customer airline. In fact there will usually be additional training expenses for the costs, or contributions towards type rating training. In this case, the "bond" is transferred to the training provider in respect of the candidates training costs. Similarly if the individual finds their own employment, or if after a time period there is no employment the "bond" is transferred to the training provider.

In other words, this isn't "your money" it is "their money." The bond is surity that the (non-foundation course) training costs will be paid. If a customer pays the training provider for your placement at completion of the course (or within an agreed period) the bond is transferred to that customer, who may repay it to you at a rate to be decided by that customer.

To be clear, the bond may turn out to be a good way of ultimately reducing the training cost burden. It also comes with a limited range of protections in the event that the cadet fails to complete the course (for a number of defined reasons.) However it would be a mistake to regard the "bond" as your money. It is money deposited to cover your training costs. Only in very defined (and currently remote) circumstances, will you be reimbursed any or all of these monies, and only if the bond is adopted by a customer airline utilizing this scheme.

The BBVA loan, is a secured loan that is secured on an acceptable UK property. Guarantors (usually parents,) would be required unless the applicant could satisy the requirements themselves. The loan is unlikley to be offered unless there is sufficient equity in the securing property, such that after the proposed loan and any existing mortgages are taken into account, there is still around a 30% margin betwen the total charge (debt) and the value of the property.

On top of this the guarantors financial position would be taken into account, to reasonably ensure that they could meet the payment obligations themselves, if the main applicant defaulted. In other words, it doesn't matter what your position is at the end of the course. It doesn't matter whether you declare yourself bankrupt or not. Any default in the loan repayment terms, will require the guarantors to satisfy those terms. Failure to comply resulting in the secured charge (the property) being exercised (sold) to repay the debt (capital, interest and any other legal charges.)

These loans are variable and tied to the UK base rate at a fixed difference (usually plus 2.5%.) With a base rate of 0.5% that makes the repayment levels (for illustration purposes) look relatively attractive. It would be a wealthy person who could predict with any certainty where rates will be in 18 months time or indeed in three or four years time. However base rates of 4% or 5% are most definetaly within the realms of probabilty within the shorter timescale. This would give a repayment rate of 6.5% to 7.5% possibly before a single penny of any loan is repaid. Any applicant needs to satisfy themselves (and the bank almost certainly will,) of the affordability criteria in those and possibly worse circumstances.

Other people will be able to give you a better account of their experience, but I have read (carefully) the paperwork, with my spectacles "rose tint" removed. These schemes may work well for individuals and I am certainly not criticising them. However the terms of the contracts should be read very carefully, and completely understood by anybody entering into them.

Smell the Coffee

5th Feb 2011, 16:41

Great post Bealzebub - and interesting username!

In all honesty I don't think the CTC Wings route will suit many, at this point in time ....I also have concerns about the direction in which the industry I currently work in and love, is heading...

The African Dude

5th Feb 2011, 17:20

the prospect of £95,000 debt after 2 years of interest build up scares me sh*tless That's a healthy way to approach it. Fearfully. As Bealzebub and others have said, this stuff about the bond being repaid to you on placement harks back to a past era. CTC may pretend that this is the basis of your training agreement, but that is simply bolleaux swinging breezily in the face of current reality. Go in expecting to have to find nearly £10k for a type rating for placement, and if a non-Orange partner airline comes along and asks for cadets (offering to pay for type rating) under the old terms and conditions, then see that as a very unlikely bonus, much as winning the lottery would be.

Also, as a side note, expect this all to change by the time you get placed - those of us who signed up for the 'old' arrangement have seen many changes over the last 3 years. As you are no doubt already aware!

Mohit_C

6th Feb 2011, 06:53

Thanks for the brief summaries guys! Actually I was going for the Wings ATP selection but I've read it is the same as the Cadets up to Phase 4. Some good info there.

giggitygiggity

7th Feb 2011, 23:19

To any past or present CTC students, how did you manage transport when you were in the UK? As I understand it, they furnish you with mini-busses when in NZ but on an open day, they said that we should bring our cars if we can.

Has anyone got a rough idea of how many is needed, also, would it be really worthwhile to bring your own car if you can? Are parking spaces limited (at their accomodation)? Also, will everyone be studying at a different pace, therefore the flexibility of your own car would be perhaps be beneficial.

Basically, how did you manage it? Also, can anyone give me a rough idea of where the Southampton accomodation is? is cycling to Nursling in the realm of possibility, although I should imagine it isn't as where ever it is, you would most likely have the motorway to contend with!

markwalker92

8th Feb 2011, 01:26

Thanks Bealzebub + co, plenty of food for thought there.

I have a plan B should I find myself without employment at the end of training, so I guess my situation means I won't completely dismiss the idea just yet. I don't really share CTC's optimism about the industry picking up, yet I know the best time to be completing training would be on the economic upturn. If it ever really comes.

Decisions decisions... :ugh:

Is anyone else thinking about starting with the June intake? It would be good to speak to some other prospective cadets if so!

Bealzebub

8th Feb 2011, 03:31

I believe that apart from possibly a week or two at the start of the course, they utilize commercial letting from private landlords. In other words they rent a few houses in nearby towns and a group of 4, 5 or 6 of you share the house, each with your own bedroom.

Because of the travelling distance, it is important that there are enough people with their own transport in each of the property locations, so that you can share lifts. An early excercise in team building perhaps? I believe that the group then share the petrol/running costs on whatever basis they agree. Failing that I suppose you share a taxi each day.

On the subject of what happens at the end of the training, I think this is a vitally important point.

Far too many people labour under the illusion that once you have a CPL/IR and 250 hours, you are somehow just what airlines are looking for. This (for the most part) really isn't the case and never has been. Historically, recognised approved training courses that led to cadet entry programmes in a few airline companies, enabled a few aspirants to utilize the recognised training programme, to transistion to an airline first officer programme.

Without the benefit of these programmes, aspirant airline pilots, would normally require an absolute minimum of 700 hours, (and usually many hundreds if not thousands of hours more,) through general aviation type work. Then they would find themselves in competition with military leavers, and career changers for whatever jobs became available.

Changes that came about with the introduction of JAR, removed some anomolies in the UK licencing regime, that brought the requirements for licence issue more into line with those that existed in much of the rest of the world. This reduced the hour requirement for a CPL down to the 200 hour level. It also meant the CPL was the benchmark requirement for most aerial work jobs, such as flight instruction (which previously could be undertaken with only a private licence in the UK.)

This caused many to believe that airlines who sought experienced applicants previously, would now beat a path to their door when they only had 200 hours. Apart from one or two vocal CEO's who saw this as a loophole that helped them get one step further to eliminating the F/O's role completely, it was just nonsense. Many airlines did introduce or expand their cadet programmes to take low houred entrants, but rightly, and as they had always done these cadets came from full time, integrated and recognised training establishments that the companies themselves maintained a relationship with.

So back to my point what happens at the end of the training?

Well hopefully you have your CPL/IR with your ATPL ground examinations completed. You have an MCC/AQC type (Airline CRM) course completed. and then what?

Does the FTO open the window and throw its new fledgings into the sky to the chant of "fly my little ones" as most of them fall to the ground? Does the FTO have a number of airline customers who recognise and integrate with it's training programme, so that some/many/most of the fledglings are taken under the wing of the airline for further training?

Where I think this training provider does stand out is at this end of the market. Yes it is a commercial business that must make a profit in order to stay in business, and as such will spin it's marketing to ensure that remains the case. Yes it will project a rosy future when conventional wisdom may from time to time be less optimistic. However as long as it continues to maintain a relationship with it's end user airline customers, then that is where the advantage lies.

As and when any upturn comes in the economy generally, and specifically as it might affect pilot recruitment, then you will see more experienced pilots achieving renewed employment or better placements. You will see more military leavers being recruited and you will see more GA pilots moving up through the system. However you will also see an acceleration in these types of integrated programmes as more cadets are brought through the system.

The difficulty is always going to be with 200 hour CPL/IR holders who don't have this type of recognised programme to assist them. There is a lot of competition out there. There always has been, and in evolving ways there always will be. It has always been about finding that advantage that will make you stand out, or seem attractive at the right time. Anybody with the very aspirational and very difficult aim of finding an airline placement with only a couple of hundred hours under their belt, needs to ask themselves seriously, where might those advantages be found?

alexWCD

8th Feb 2011, 07:42

To be completely honest I haven't read the whole 100 and something pages of this forum, but was just wondering if there is anyone who lives in NZ that has applied/been through CTC. I have just placed my application in and am waiting eagerly. I sort of know what to expect, but I'd like some info on the process for someone in NZ. Cheers

pipersam

8th Feb 2011, 11:30

Beazlebub, its great, and refreshing, to hear a perfectly balanced response such as yours. I see far too much negativity on this forum with no real reasoning as to why they are being negative. So thank you for that.

I agree that CTC stick out from the rest with their relationship with the partner airlines. They have certainly nailed that part on the head, and from my own experience of the company, and their members of staff, they do seem to actually care about their students.

I would like to make a few comments about what CTC said to us on our selection day. Firstly, and probably most importantly, Lee Woodward, the director of the CTC Wings Cadet program, stated that they have only not been able to place one of their cadets with an airline after the type rating phase, and that is due to the fact that the cadet was type rated on the 757. As we all know, there are not a lot of these flying around in Europe anymore. He also stated that the company will be supporting the cadet with a different type rating in order to help them to be placed with an airline. This is not in CTC's contract, but it shows the companies dedication to their students. I doubt any other FTO would be willing to do such a thing.

Secondly, he also told us that he was in the process of speaking to the partner airlines regarding cadet placement over the next year or two, and that he had to tell their partner airlines that CTC would not have enough cadets to meet the needs for those airlines. This can only be a good thing right? I'm not saying that things are improving, and I am definately skeptical about the "pilot shortage" that will we face over the next few years, but I do trust CTC as a company, and I'm very glad that I will be completing my training with them rather than the other FTO's.

Zippy Monster

8th Feb 2011, 16:14

and from my own experience of the company, and their members of staff, they do seem to actually care about their students.The staff, on a personal level, yes. I can't remember any occasion from my time on the course where, if I had a problem, the door wouldn't be answered. I remember a few instructors in particular who took their students to heart and really cared about their progress. You, as a person, will be looked after by the staff and instructors.

However. I remember when I was out in NZ and there were a few delays to my flying towards the end of the course due to weather / occasional aircraft unserviceability / etc. Normal stuff. I asked my IFR instructor if I'd be given any priority during the next week over other training flights, given my departure date from NZ had already passed and I was due back in the UK for ATPL exams. (he was a standards instructor and had staff to train as well.) His response... "Remember, to this company, you are a great big walking pile of cash. It's in their interests."

And that's the key point. To the company, when you sign that contract, you are a great big walking pile of cash. CTC is not a charity. They look after you because most of the staff are nice (note, I said 'most') and also because they have a duty of care, especially in NZ where you're thousands of miles from home - and because if they don't, and something goes wrong, it might result in many more walking piles of cash walking elsewhere with their business. The staff care about you as a person; the company cares about how many numbers you can add to their bottom line. You are just another statistic on their spreadsheets. Literally, if you ever happen to peruse the company's accounts.

Speaking of cash... at this talk you attended on selection day, did they breach the subject of how long some people had to previously wait between finishing AQC and starting type rating, and how some have gone bankrupt? I was chatting to one Flexicrew pilot not so long ago who was having to borrow money off his sister to meet his repayments because his contract pay wouldn't cover it as well as his bills. It's nice to hear of the 'support' for the 757 guy, whatever exactly that entails, but once you take out that loan you're on your own money-wise - don't expect a great deal of help if you don't get a 'placement' and you end up with the bank banging your door down. And what about statistics regarding FULL TIME, PERMANENT employment as opposed to Flexicrew 'placements'? Did they give you anything on this?

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty that's good about the course - the year in NZ, the quality of instruction (particularly the latter stages), the facilities, the general atmosphere, etc. You'll have a great time. But it's important to know the other, less-good bits and form a balanced opinion before you sign on the dotted line. Believe me, it's a mind-boggling, eye-watering amount of money, although it doesn't quite boggle your mind until it's time to start the repayments. You won't be thinking about it too much when you're enjoying the scenery doing a cross-country across NZ in a 172 with a mate on board, but you will be thinking about it very much once it's time to actually get a job, you receive the contract and do the maths.

If you decide it's for you - which you may well do - then good luck to you. Go in with your eyes open and you'll have a great time.

The African Dude

8th Feb 2011, 18:36

I agree with what Zippy Monster has said, particularly with regards to the very memorable experience that CTC offers.

However, regarding the following - he also told us that he was in the process of speaking to the partner airlines regarding cadet placement over the next year or two, and that he had to tell their partner airlines that CTC would not have enough cadets to meet the needs for those airlines

...LW has been trotting out this line for a long time and very rarely is it backed up with some kind of evidence in the form of placements, easyJet excluded.

The industry is moving, with many pilots heading to the Middle East and BA amongst others, so choose based on fact rather than what CTC management tell you. They are very good at sounding sincere, and why do you think that is?

Good luck, and if you choose to enrol, best of luck with your future.

pipersam

8th Feb 2011, 23:52

Speaking of cash... at this talk you attended on selection day, did they breach the subject of how long some people had to previously wait between finishing AQC and starting type rating, and how some have gone bankrupt?

Not particularly at the selection day, but certainly at the open day they did touch this subject thoroughly. We even had a session with John Monk, a 757/767 training captain for BA, and he made it particularly obvious that there will be more than likely delays, setbacks etc. He even told us that he had been made jobless three times during his career as a pilot, and that we should prepare for that.

Obviously, and I completely agree with you, CTC buff things up to make it all look pretty and attracting, but they certainly don't lie about the issues, or even obscure them as much as some people think they do.

I personally think that with a little appreciation and understanding about the drawbacks, and by preparing yourself for such occurances, it shouldn't be a major problem. For me, yes I am borrowing a large amount of money for the course, but luckily I have my parents support, and I have made the neccessary precautions to try to minimize any "downtime" that I may occur before gaining full employment by an airline. Ideally, I will do my type rating and go straight into employment by an airline, but I know that at the moment that is unlikely and I may have to fly as flexicrew, or even worse go do another job whilst I wait for a placement. For me it's worth it, because theres nothing else I want to do more than be a pilot.

giggitygiggity

10th Feb 2011, 03:59

Cheers for the info on transport arrangements etc. Bealzebub! We're already in negotiation. My solicitor could have done with your explaination on what exactly happens with regards to monies paid to CTC as it took him a while to understand it and I am convinced he is still a little baffled by it all. Again, cheers for all of the useful info.

giggs85

27th Feb 2011, 14:55

Just for those of you who are considering starting at CTC but are in doubt as to getting a job at the end, this year they have placed 88 pilots so far, 80 to easyjet on flexicrew and 8 to Monarch very recently, know of any other flying schools that can match that in the current climate? I am also waiting to be placed and i have no worry what so ever i am in safe hands.Yes i am paying back a loan on a regular income but so what? I knew the risks and took them on, dont go into it blind, prepare for the eventuality you may have to pay your way before you get anywhere near a jet, and your time will come.If you have a place at CTC already and you are serious that this is what you really want to do with your life then dont turn it down, i think you may regret it.

Highland Kilt

27th Feb 2011, 16:37

giggs85, what you need to be asking is CTC is how many of these 88 placement are wings cadets. The majority it seems are from there flexi crew pool of type rated pilots. If it was the case they were just wings you would be on a type rating course already.

giggs85

28th Feb 2011, 06:33

Highland Kit: Im assuming you dont know exactly what place i am or was in the hold pool so you wouldnt know wether i should have been offered a type rating or not.I do know however that i was once 90+ in the hold pool not so long ago, and as most of us know each other, know who has been offered type ratings, most of whom have started them already, and these are people not so far in front of me, so yeah maybe ALL wernt wings but i know for a fact that many of them are.The point im addressing is that people are being offered ratings now in numbers that are reducing the hold pool considerably, there is a steady flow, things are moving along, and i would not be worrying if i was somebody starting out now with the hindsight i have as a finished wings cadet.Im not worried about employment, and things are a lot better now than when i started my training.

giggitygiggity

1st Mar 2011, 04:52

In the offer pack I recieved from CTC, they said that it would be possible to gain a PPL during training in order to take your friends/family flying in NZ, I would be quite keen to do this. Does anyone know how this can be achieved. As I understand it, the instructors would have to arrange a skills test and you would have to pay a license issue fee. Has anyone ever done this, is it simple, or is it not worth bothering?

greenfreddie

2nd Mar 2011, 15:54

It is possible to sort out an NZPPL - you don't get one as part of the course if you follow the integrated JAR syllabus, though all of the syllabus items (with the exception of low flying) are covered. There is an aeroclub on the airfield who, worst case, can do it, however as CTC NZ are quiet at the moment there is probably enough capacity for them to do it for you in house. The delaying factor is getting the relevent fit and proper person documentation through the NZCAA and subsequent receipt of the license paperwork, which could take a month to turn up, which might be worth bearing in mind if you are planning on particular visit dates.

flyingmam254

2nd Mar 2011, 17:30

can anyone tell me how long it takes from submitting your cv to getting apositive or negative answer for the ctc wings?

pipersam

2nd Mar 2011, 21:41

Well you have to do more than just submit your CV. There is an online application process to go through, and once this is complete it can take up to a few weeks for them to contact you. However, from personal experience, and from other cadets on my course, we were all contacted within 3-4 days.

giggitygiggity

2nd Mar 2011, 23:01

Thanks for the info greenfreddie, additional info on gaining an NZPPL during the ctc programme is available on this (http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/444385-ppl-license-issue-during-atpl-integrated-course-ctc.html#post6281496) thread should anyone else is interested.

One9iner

4th Mar 2011, 11:52

On the CTC single engine phase in NZ, it is possible to take a NZPPL; with an in-house examiner, at your own cost...

However during the ME phase in NZ don't expect a parent or partner to be allowed to 'backseat' a twinstar flight. CTC don't like it. Not sure if its an insurance / cost issue, but it generally isn't allowed.

Dynamite9585

6th Mar 2011, 05:55

It's mainly from an insurance stand point, but i meeting recently with the Head of Training, he said that he would have no problem with family and friends going on training flight depending on what is requred on the flight.

If the training manual states that on this flight you are ment to carry out forced landings, stalls ect you will not be able to take people with you, only other cadets.

I am a NZ cadet so i'm unsure if the rules are a bit different (other than by defult UK guys don't get a PPL).

If you get thru and are a cadet, just ask someone. the forgivness vs permission model doesn't work well at CTC

loughrey1

6th Mar 2011, 17:29

Hi guys, I'm new to this site but I really need some information and advice in the steps I should take. I'm 16 and studying A-Levels, I wanted to be a pilot and always have done. I have researched into different academies and other options I could take. To be honest I would prefer to be taught in a college or in an academy rather than going through the private process. Has anyone got any advice on who I should contact or the best options I should take. I'm constantly being put under pressure with UCAS and other university entry methods and I want to know what steps I should take to train to be a Pilot.

stevop21

6th Mar 2011, 18:49

Hi Michael,

I am also 16 and I know what you mean. My advice to you would be to go along with the whole UCAS thing and make it seem like you want to follow the uni path. You don't have to accept a place. It takes a whole lot of pressure off that the college put on you. My college are super-keen on UCAS so I decided the best bet would be just to follow it. I don't understand what you mean about private vs. academy?? I would read the stickies at the top of this page to answer some of your questions. The basic steps would be get a license I guess but that is by no means a passport to any job, unless sponsorsed of course.

Good Luck,

Also, why did you post this in the CTC section?

alexWCD

8th Mar 2011, 06:50

Hi everyone, I have been reading this thread for a while now and am pretty sure I'd be able to put together a pretty good interview. However I live in NZ and I have just applied for the NZ course. Has anyone been through the New Zealand interview process? I am currently sitting my PPL exams and alrady have 34 hours, I'm 17 and in my last year of schooling. If anyone could give me some advice on the NZ course, job placement (I know some have been put with Eagle, but are there any others??). If no one can answer the latter then just some info on the NZz side of the selection process would be sweet. And no, there's no way I am going to apply for the Jetstar program.

Dynamite9585

11th Mar 2011, 03:34

if you want CTC to pretend to help you with a job at the end of it jetstar is the only option.

Eagle don't want 200 hr F/Os off ctc, they only ever placed 2 with them and i think it just didn't work out.

you will come out the other side of the CTC production line thinking Airline is the only flying there is, i'm one of the only ones in my class liking the idea of doing 135/141 ops.

chris3455

16th Mar 2011, 19:16

loughrey1,
I was in your position 4 years ago when I was deciding whether to go to university or just straight into pilot training. In the end I went to university because there is no harm in having a degree. In fact it's a good safety net if for whatever reason you fail the medical. Once you fail a class 1 medical I have heard it's incredibly difficult to get it back, so in that situation having a degree is a good thing to fall back on. I am aware that fees are going up a lot nowadays though which will definitely complicate things.
As for ways of becoming a pilot there are two routes, Integrated or Modular training. There are plenty of resources online explaining the advantages and disadvantages of both routes. After reading the information about them, you'll have a pretty good idea of what route is best for you.

By the way, anyone here going to CTC wings assessment on 24th March?

(If I am in the wrong thread for my final question then my apologies, first time posting here)

lazy george

28th Mar 2011, 19:19

Does anybody know what the first exam's are that you sit at CTC?

Bealzebub

28th Mar 2011, 22:57

I believe it is currently: Engines/Airframes General; Meteorology; Principles of Flight; IFR communications; VFR communications; Instrumentation; Air law.

Not necessarily in that particular order.

lazy george

3rd Apr 2011, 12:03

Thanks for that mate!

Oneway

18th Apr 2011, 16:11

Anyone doing phase 2 and 3 this week at CTC?

Regards,

aze102

23rd Apr 2011, 13:51

anyone going to may 11th selection phase 2,3 ? message me!

futurecadet05

16th May 2011, 12:05

does anyone knows when is the next intake starting at ctc, UK?
:confused:

goosemaverick

16th May 2011, 14:20

I asked this question as it was worrying me. as far as they told me, all the placements they have made with easyjet this year have been cadets, and that quite a lot of these, from this year and the last, now work at easyJet full time! ! !

(oops, reply fail! this was about the amount of cadets ctc were placing on flexi-crew. None this year have been already rated!)

systematically

16th May 2011, 20:35

CTC is scaling back their UK placements in particular the training in NZ. So much so that there may not be anymore intakes. Their JAA instructors are leaving as fast as they can and they cannot afford to train more JAA qualified instructors.
The instructors need JAA qualifications to teach the intergrated cadets and the law is changing so that it will be a lot harder for them to get the necessary JAA qualifications. This all makes it to expensive to run the Integrated course. CTCNZ is all about making money and are now targeting the asia market.

alexWCD: CTC didnt even get on the AirNZ perferred training programme list. Are you sure you want to go to CTC? Have a look at the flight training schools that are Air NZ approved. They have a higher quality and hence chosen by AirNZ. There are 5 or 6 approved organisations. I think they are Massey, Hastings, southern wings, Christchurch and Nelson.

Paddyo11

17th May 2011, 19:16

what is the integrated course?

pipersam

17th May 2011, 20:52

systematically: what is your source regarding CTC scaling back their UK programme? Not saying your wrong at all, purely interested to hear more!

futurecadet05

20th May 2011, 07:09

During the interview with ctc are they going to ask predictable technical questions such as "how do planes fly?" or more complex tech questions?

..my selection is soon so I'm panicking!! :{

chris3455

20th May 2011, 21:44

futurecadet05, when I went for my selection, they asked quite a few technical questions a bit more complex than 'how do planes fly?'....it was a while ago but I remember talking about things like thrust reduction on takeoff. They also asked some non-techy questions for example about CRM, so be prepared for them.
I think what they ask is dependent on how you answered the questionnaire they emailed you.
To be honest, you shouldn't panic about the interview. It's more about getting to know you and your previous experiences (that relate to the qualities they are looking for in potential pilots) and to make sure that you can stay calm under pressure.
The number one rule I always stick by is: Don't freeze!....always always always say something, it seems obvious but I'm surprised by how many people who say nothing or just say 'I don't know'....I remember in my interview asking for a minute of thinking time before I answered a particularly tricky question, she didn't mind at all!

Just stay calm and be yourself and you will be ok
I hope that helps

kingofkabul

21st May 2011, 08:47

Futurecadet, my interview with CTC was very relaxed, it was far more focused on why you want to be a pilot, why CTC, and then a few questions asking for examples of a time when you showed some core competencies. These include the obvious ones, e.g. leadership,teamwork.

The interview was extremely relaxed, more like a chat really. I didn't get asked a single technical question all day.

futurecadet05

24th May 2011, 06:09

thanks guys :)

ajmaynard2

30th May 2011, 18:30

Hi guys, does anyone know whether they use inverted or normal test, or do they change it from time to time?

Thanks

pipersam

31st May 2011, 21:07

Mine was inverted, but I believe it can be changed in a click of the button so be prepared for both.

captain.weird

6th Jun 2011, 15:44

Hi there, can someone maybe sum up the best reactions here in this topic? Not the whole text but the reaction numbers are enough..

Thanks in advance!

Bealzebub

6th Jun 2011, 15:52

There are 3943 posts (now.) Why can you not read them yourself and sum up the reaction? Every contributor has made their own individual comment, observation, question or summary.

What is it you feel you need to know?

captain.weird

6th Jun 2011, 16:08

Yeah I thought already that someone will put a reaction like you Bealzebub. I want to know a lot of information about the insides of the selections and of course, of the training. I can sum them up by myself yes, but maybe there is someone already here who has summed up the most useful posts..?

It is a very big thread, with I think a lot of useful posts. It will take a lot of time, but it will pay-off, I'm sure!

If someone has summed the most useful posts, can he/she please write them down? Otherwise I'll do it!

systematically

13th Jun 2011, 21:52

The interview process is just looking for average competencies in your abilities, so relax. It’s easy to get in to CTC now. The main thing they are looking for is your personality and of course the money to pay for the very overpriced training.

Think about whether you really want to go to CTC as they have changed a lot! The quality is now focused on the cheap and nasty training for the low cost Asian markets. The skills set of CTC has plummeted and they have mostly very low time fresh instructors. Air New Zealand recently chose five other training organisations over CTC. They are not interested in the JAA integrated course as this requires higher qualified (costly) instructors. The training is the bare minimums. And more... see older posts in this thread.

pipersam. My sources come from being there. You can also check out the pending rule changes that will affect the JAA instructor ratings on the caa web site. Basically to hold a JAA IR you will need a JAA CPL and this will mean all the NZ instructors doing a JAA CPL in the UK (VERY expensive). Whereas in the past they have beed allowed to use their NZ (ICAO) CPL.

Dunny84

17th Jun 2011, 19:20

Apologies for posting here but the social thread doesn't seem to be used anymore.

Anyone got their phase 2/3 on the 22nd and staying at Dale Farm House?

PILOTPIRX

20th Jun 2011, 19:38

Hello,

Have any of you recently done phase 2 and remembers a little bit of maths question, there is a particular type that I want to go through again. If anyone remembers a question about sg volume and mass, could you tell me what exactly were they asking about and which values were provided please?

I would be very grateful.

Many thanks in advance

stella di mare

21st Jun 2011, 09:29

I did the test recently and there were no questions about volumes or masses. Expect fuel calculations, altitude calculations, square roots and basic arithmetic. You have plenty of time. I finished in 7 min, reviewed the slightly harder ones, and still got time left. I shouldn't worry if you have at least one brain cell with a feeling for maths.

Booglebox

23rd Jun 2011, 19:08

I also recently did the test and I had 3 questions about determining the specific gravity of a volume. :}

JimmyHill1982

29th Jun 2011, 08:19

Hi there, again apologies if this is not in the right place but i have my Phase 2 coming up on the 14th of July. Anyone who is also going on this date feel free to PM me!

LJUSER

12th Jul 2011, 09:39

Hi Jimmy

Just seen your post regarding stage 2 on thursday this week...i have mine later in the month, although thought i would get in contact!

Have you found any relevant questions or has anyone shed any light on example questions!?

Im willing to send over a couple of questions I believe should be relevant for the maths test when i get home from work tonight.

Would be great to hear from you after the stage 2 on thursday.

Best of luck

shorty79

13th Jul 2011, 09:42

My advice (and it worked for me very recently)

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/454590-how-do-scores-using-cockpitweb-aptitude-software-compare-pilapt-pass-requirements.html

check out aviac.com I also bought the Oxford Maths software.
Preperation does work!

pilotwannabe101

14th Jul 2011, 18:35

Anyone got their phase 2 on Wednesday 20th July?

giggitygiggity

15th Jul 2011, 00:10

@natashacabin80

try www.ctcwings.com/india/pdfs/PILAPT-Introduction V2.pdf
(http://www.ctcwings.com/india/pdfs/PILAPT-Introduction%20V2.pdf)
very basic but a good start

Muel07

23rd Jul 2011, 11:40

Hi all,
I have my CTC Cadet phase 2 and 3 test/interview coming up on the 17th August.
I have read many pages of this thread and recently there doesn't seem to be an awful lot of information about the maths test that you have to sit.
I'm wondering what type of questions they ask and is it still 15 questions in 15 minutes?
Thanks alot.

Tweety55

23rd Jul 2011, 15:14

Hi,

I looked up in all PPRuNe forum but I couldn't find reliable information about this flight school.

Is there anybody who got into the Cadet programme and got employed by any of the partner airlines? Could you give me your opinion about the school and everything that you might consider important to know?

Thanks

systematically

24th Jul 2011, 05:43

It is interesting to watch how CTC has changed over the years. The comments from cadets/instructors 4-5 years ago were mostly good, then 2-4 years they became more damming due to the increase in costs. Now the most recent change has been the severe drop in Quality.
My advice to Tweety55 is to find recent information on CTC. Even ring up the NZ training school and ask to talk to some cadets/instructors.
You will be making a BIG investment, make sure you know what you are paying for. There are now a LOT of hidden costs that were previously included in the price.

Tweety55

25th Jul 2011, 00:07

Thanks djfingerscrossed for the informations.

So now you are a pilot even though you had some difficulties during the time you were in the holding pool,right?
Do you think the linceces were issued to you by CTC (or uk in general) were valuated better than all others issued in other countries? Because my point is: you can obtain the same licences in Florida for 1/3 of CTC's cost; but I have heard that is more importart who has issued them instead of the actual papers.

Regarding the finance I have to ask a loan so if I will choose to start this course and I fail I am :mad:. Plan B is university but the don't pay you to study...

Jack Sprat

25th Jul 2011, 08:31

Systematically - re your last thread; Air NZ has a number of sims it wants to make more use of therefore any training organization with sims was competition and never a candidate as one of their flight trainers. Ask them if training through one of their selected trainers gives any form of head start.

aerofoil1

25th Jul 2011, 14:14

Hello all
I've recently applied to join the ctc cadet programme a couple of things I'd like advice on
1 when your down in Southampton how long is a typical day I know the whole course takes about a year, would I have to give my job up I live a fair distance from Southampton,would you be needed to move?
2 and if so how do you support yourself ie accomadation and living costs as it seems ctc don't account for that!! 60grand training programme isn't cheap in anycase
Please pass on your advice please

Bealzebub

25th Jul 2011, 15:50

On the wings cadet course you will find that it is a full time approved training course.

In Southampton you will spend about 5 months of Mon-Fri 9am to 5 pm classroom (including CBT) training. There will also be a significant level of self study, some of which will be on premises and some of which will be home study.

You will then spend around 7 months in New Zealand doing your flight training.

Following this is 2 months of full time UK instrument rating training and examination, at Bournemouth.

Then there follows the intermediate phase of airline based (MCC) training known as the Airline qualification course. This takes around 3 weeks.

Then follows the advanced training leading towards (and in conjunction with) airline placement. This only happens once placements are established. It may involve a long wait for such a placement depending on the opportunities available at any given point in time. These placements are not uniform in nature or in the terms of appointment. Some may involve significant levels of additional expense for type rating training, and some may involve no additional expense.

It would be realistically impossible to do such a course whilst holding down any other major form of employment. The course is a full time vocation for at least 18 months.

Your accomodation is provided within the course costs (or training bond as it would be referred to.) This is usually in shared rental property in Southampton and Bournemouth during the respective training phases. In New Zealand, it is in purpose built, single room, halls of residence style accomodation a few miles from the training facility at Hamilton airport.

Food/transport and other ancilliary costs (including insurances, security bonds, and other living expenses) are down to you. Depending on your own circumstances, that figure probably benchmarks around £10,000.

The training costs are not "£60,000" They are around a base figure of £80,000. The Training bond is a basic £69,000 but on top of this (and to some extent dependant upon your previous flying experience,) there is an additional foundation course to pay for, which (depending on the exchange rate) is around another £10,500. The $NZ is currently very strong against sterling, the Euro, and the US Dollar. It has appreciated about 20% in the last year alone, and that is from a very strong base even then.
You should therefore plan on a minimum budget of around £90,000 - £95,000. You might also want to earmark an additional £7,000-£10,000 for possible extra type rating costs at completion of the intermediate (ACQ) phase.

You would be well advised to start by reading the CTC website, where much of this information can be found. In any event, I hope this is helpful.

pipersam

25th Jul 2011, 21:16

In Southampton you will spend about 5 months of Mon-Fri 9am to 5 pm classroom (including CBT) training. There will also be a significant level of self study, some of which will be on premises and some of which will be home study.

Just to clarify, my current groundschool schedule follows a Mon - Thursday timetable with Friday's set aside for self study at the either at the provided accomodation or at the Nursling traning facility. The average day is 9am-3pm (occassionally 4pm) with plenty of breaks throughout the day for a breather ;).

My property is within 10 minutes drive of the training centre - smack bang in the middle of the New Forest which is beautiful and a great escape after a heavy day studying General Navigation. I believe that you are required to stay in the provided accomodation during the week, but at the weekends you are free to do your own thing, travel home etc. This is due to CAA policies of an "integrated" course.

Beazlebub is spot on regarding having a job during the integrated training, and in fact it's in our contract that we are not to have any form of "employment" whilst undergoing our training. (There would be absolutely no point anyway as you will not have any time during groundschool.)

Regards

aerofoil1

25th Jul 2011, 21:42

im hoping to join with my ppl as that should hopefully be passed within 2months weather permitting which should save at least 10k,its a big commitment and i dont even know if ill get selected especially as i only have 2 gcses maths and physics but who knows
so i take it most people are securing the funding via spanish bank mbva

Bealzebub

25th Jul 2011, 21:56

im hoping to join with my ppl as that should hopefully be passed within 2months weather permitting which should save at least 10k

That is not how it works. The foundation course is not simply a PPL. In fact you dont actually get a PPL. It incorporates more than that. As such, previous experience might get you some credit towards the foundation course but it will not substitute for it. You will still be required to pay for the full course, with any possible credit being given at the end of that phase of the training.

The bank is BBVA, and it specialises in secured funding for flight training as one of its smaller divisions. It may offer funding with tailored packages allowing up front payment holidays, and partially deferred repayment periods. However the borowers or their guarantors need to be in excellent financial standing with security (property) that has a value of at least 30% more than the total sum borrowed plus any existing mortgages or charges.

Not everybody utilizes or qualifies for this type of funding.

aerofoil1

26th Jul 2011, 09:10

Well there goes that idea I won't qualify for the funding and since I do not have 80grand sitting in my bank the dream an ATPL will probably never happen they say there is a shortage of pilots how do the airlines expect any newcomers to get into the industry without sponsorships any one have any ideas I'm seriously thinking of just passing my PPL getting an instrument rating and leaving it at that just trying to be realistic

mark_eisner

26th Jul 2011, 10:40

I qualified for the BBVA loan by using my grandparents house for security and the fact that my parents could afford the ~£800pm initial reduced payments. Our joint assets including cars and cash is <£20,000.

If you have a house available and parents with a reasonable income then don't give up.

stella di mare

26th Jul 2011, 12:47

Does anyone know how many (UK) CTC cadets in 2010 or 2011 actually have been offered a job after completion of their line training? Or what the approx. chances are? Or any related info.

I passed all the requirements for the wings cadet scheme, but now my pink glasses have faded over time, I'm in doubt whether to start or not.. The current market is evil.

aerofoil1

26th Jul 2011, 13:24

Thanks steve, after giving it some thought I agree the whole ctc set up looks like there taking you for the money 80k and not a guarantee of a job I mean what do you live on in Southampton when your studying for the course as your not allowed to work then you have to pay the loan back it's not for me besides I do not have a big enough house for this kind of loan there must be other routes to take if not I'll stick with my ppl and carry on dreaming!

Bealzebub

26th Jul 2011, 14:13

I think people need to be sensible, realistic and risk aware, before they consider these type of programmes.

You are paying for a course of integrated flight training and that is expensive at around £80,000.

There can be no guarantee of a job, because those jobs are not in the gift of the training provider. They are possible placements offered in conjunction with independent commercial airlines, whose own requirements are subject to change depending on their own finances and trading markets.

This is a full time training programme of around 18 months duration. It is not a correspondence course, or a flexible part time programme. That is one aspect of what makes the programme attractive to its partner airline customers. For somebody considering embarking on such a programme, they will need to have all of their finances in order to cover the duration of the course, including living costs.

The prospect of a placement upon completion, is based on the assumed state of the market 18 months further down the road. That is an unknown forecast that can be viewed with whatever degree of optimism or pessimism the buyer, seller, and any third party buyers feel at any given moment in time.

This programme has a track record of placing cadets with "partner airlines". Given that this is a major feature of this programme, it is presumably very much in the interest of the company to work to ensure that remains successful. Without this competitive advantage, it would simply be another integrated training provider. Despite this, it cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If there are no placements to be had, then it must (and has) look for whatever the market has to offer. In the last few years that has centred around one large "lo-cost" airline. That airline has dictated it's own terms, and that has often involved extra costs for the successful placements.

In another 18 months this may be the norm. Things may be better, or they may be worse. Who knows?

Where these programmes do have an advantage, is that airlines nearly always use similar programmes for their cadet entry opportunities. That is likely to be increasingly so, as and when there is an acceleration in the marketplace. Airlines do not generally regard a CPL/IR and 200 hours as meeting even the minimum requirements for direct recruitment. At this level of flying experience, these programmes are pretty much the only game in town for those who want a serious chance at this level. However they come with no guarantees, and you need to be able to afford them.

In my opinion, you need the finances in place. You need to understand that there may be a long period of waiting at the completion of the course. You need to be able to cover these realities and always have a fall back plan.

If you cannot sensibly satisfy these conditions, then you should look at different strategies and routes in commercial flying, if that remains a realistic ambition.

stella di mare

26th Jul 2011, 14:44

Thank you for your response, Bealzebub. It came to my knowledge that after completion of line training (at this specific orange lcc), your place will simply be filled by the next cadet in the holding pool. And you will enter the same market as the other 1000s of unemployed pilots (but with a bit more hours behind your name). Hence no direct job opportunities.

Would that give you some competitive advantages. I have a back-up plan in place, but if that plan deems necessary, the course would be a complete waste of a lot of money..

Bealzebub

26th Jul 2011, 15:17

Stella,

My understanding in the case you mention, is that there have been a significant number of permanent places offered to cadets, that have dovetailed from those temporary contracts. Somebody closer and better qualified to comment should be able to provide more details.

Even where temporary placements are achieved, it would likely result in close to 500 hours on an airliner for those who are successful. Whatever the ongoing difficulties and realities of the marketplace, I would have thought that would place somebody on the next rung of the experience ladder with regard to further employment.

Across the industry, I think it is quite likely in the near term, that seasonal and part time contracts will become more and more the norm. However it is also likely that permanent contracts will springboard from these, eventually.

With large training debts to service, times are difficult even for many of the successful applicants. This is an "apprenticeship" at these experience levels, and the terms and conditions on offer reflect that fact, as well as they reflect the general state of the market.

Muel07

29th Jul 2011, 11:08

Hi all,
Is there anybody who has recently sat the phase 2/3 assessment for CTC wings?
If so, could you provide some details as what to expect as I really don't have any idea of what type of questions they will ask and how difficult the interview is.
A different flight training provider I have an upcoming assessment with has sent me a detailed document of what to expect and what to revise where as CTC have sent nothing.
Thanks!

pipersam

29th Jul 2011, 23:17

Muel, take a look back through this thread, there is plenty of information describing exactly what you can expect at the assessment and it will help for sure :ok:

PitchPitch

1st Aug 2011, 11:55

@SDM,

eJ (and Monarch) have taken cadets this year and last year and quite a lot in fact. Not completely sure how many. Graduates finishing CTC Wings in Jan/Feb 2011 have just started getting placed recently via the FlexiCrew scheme so it's not looking too bad... things are starting to pick up!

Ryan Bell

1st Sep 2011, 21:09

I've just received my stage 2 confirmation, and have paid the fees online, incredibly nervous for the Arithmetic and PILAPT test.

Anyone else got stage 2 on the 14TH of September?

patm92

16th Sep 2011, 16:48

Hey Guys

Does anyone that has been accepted for the CTC Wings Course, have the Development Day/ Meet & Greet on the 16 February 2012?

greenfreddie

16th Sep 2011, 17:30

Just to provide a bit of balance to the doom and gloom merchants out there, and whilst not providing any inducement to blow £85k+ that people haven't got, I would say that CTC is still a reasonable proposition as a way to get into the airlines - without kicking off a debate on integrated vs modular or anything like that, I would say that for the moment it is considerably easier to get into a well paid jet job through CTC or Oxford than self improving at the moment - it does cost a lot more, but if you weigh the initial outlay against the improved earning potential (even on flexicrew - crummy for 8 months then pretty darned reasonable cash after that) compared to a few years of good experience/average pay doing other flying it probably all works out fairly even in the end.

The ctc holdpool still has people swimming about in it at present, but the queue is now much shorter than at it's peak. Word has it that the FO requirement at easyjet for 2012 is again going to be about 300, and though nowadays this is filled by a mix of parc and ctc, and the imminent recruitment of experienced FOs, that still offers opportunities for a lot of people, and movement to the majors (even captains at Ezy are moving across to the bottom of the BA seniority list) will most likely mean that this will continue into following years too. On top of this, I believe that less people are being squeezed through the fATPL sausage factory these days on account of the tougher access to cash, so the future availability (12-18 months from now) of cadets for placement is likely to be somewhat reduced.

Hopefully turboprop guys will soon start to get sucked up into jet jobs - this will reduce vacancies for cadets perhaps, but then again those Dash-8s aren't going to fly themselves either...

Having said all that, it's still a lot of money to scrape together, and the prospect of years of hefty loan repayments isn't all that appealing....and though there is an element of a money back guarantee at ctc and oxford, there is no certainty about making it on to the line as a shiny new FO until that final line check is signed off in your training file....

transcendental

20th Sep 2011, 00:03

I have been through the CTC Integrated system and the Flexicrew system.

I will withhold any opinions about the way in which a person may fund their training. Enough opinions have been expressed and if a person gets money from one place or the other, that's their business. Those with privileges invariably use them, those without have to do something else, and flying is expensive. That's life.

In hindsight, what Donald Rumsfeld once said about AfPaq, "There are known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns" (to paraphrase) is relevant when starting training with CTC and, probably, any other FTO.

It's possible to get a reasonable amount of base information from places like this and any contacts you have in the industry. Flying is a pretty small world and I was surprised about who I came into contact with once I started training, and there are plenty of people going into training after their mates, so if you have sources of reasonable, informed opinion in the aviation industry, talk to them and listen to everything they say, then try to take a balanced view. There are always the hardened cynics, the realists, the optimists, the people who don't know anything else, the people who don't want to know anything else, and plenty of people with a vested interest (usually the FTOs and the airlines). Naturally, information will conflict and be skewed by the party's direct experience of the route they went down. You have to use your own judgement when listening to opinion.

If you are excited at the prospect of being a pilot and pass whatever selection you go through, put the brakes on. FTOs will try to get you signed up and on a course as fast as possible. This is not in your interests, whatsoever, in my experience. Pass selection, then defer as long as you can to earn as much money as you can, get your affairs in order and take legal advice before starting the course.

As others have said, have a plan B. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Critically, you need to look at the contracts in detail, and pass them to a lawyer for an opinion. This, no doubt, will cost something. Why do this? Well, because it's highly likely that in your excitement and desperation to get into flight school, you'll barely stop to consider the actual meaning and potential implications of the multiple clauses in the contracts, and just as important, the scope of the contracts. Forewarned is forearmed and it's an insurance policy.

CTC provided initially 2 contracts. The first was for foundation training. The second for basic training. Foundation was to NZ PPL. Basic was to CPL/ME/IR. What they considered to be "Advanced Training" was Airline Qualification Course (AQC) which comprises multi-pilot CRM training on a jet (73 or 320). That was covered by another contract, only released a matter of 2 weeks or less before starting on the AQC. Type Rating was another separate contract. Flexicrew was another separate contract. All carefully released very close to when you were going to start the course, limiting one's ability to do anything with the contract. This compartmentalisation of contracts works only in the FTOs favour. It means that no matter what is said to you about the future, you can bank on nothing except what is covered in the currently relevant contract(s).

In practice, what does this mean? Well, if I showed my contracts to any lawyer, they would all laugh at me for having ever signed it. These contracts are some of the most heavily biased contracts you are likely to see. The power balance within the contract is literally 90% in CTCs favour. For example, there is a set of clauses which essentially says "CTC has the right to cancel all training with no refund if the cadet's behaviour, attitude or actions are not in keeping with what CTC deems appropriate for an airline pilot". There is absolutely no definition of acceptable behaviour whatsoever. The supposed £30k of protection for the cadet is practically meaningless because it is totally at CTC's discretion and there are no service levels set out by which to judge whether you are receiving adequate training. I could go on. Suffice to say, the contracts really add up to signing away all your money and rights while you are part of the program. I am not understating this in any way. Whether CTC exercise the full weight of their power is not the point - the game is heavily rigged in the their favour, and the relevance of every clause will not be fully apparent until you are in and spending money. You will be treated like a mushroom - kept in the dark and fed on **** every step of the way. They will answer the questions asked but you won't always know what questions to ask, or how good an answer you are actually getting.

If you are going iCP, I think it's worse. I know of one massive, ridiculous horror story that I cannot recount here, and possibly would not be believed were I to tell it, but I was there and saw it. Be prepared for CTC to try to get away with what it can until you stand up to it backed up by your lawyer. Not for the little nitty gritty, but for the big things. You'll know what they are when you're in the system... The recruitment tactic is to offer iCP to people who don't make it to the Wings standard (whatever the hell that actually is, these days).

Any legal disputes have been resolved out of court and were conditional upon the cadet signing a confidentiality (gagging) clause, which is why specific knowledge of the outcomes of various disputes are not really known and will pretty much never be bunged on a forum anywhere. Suffice to say, a minority of cadets either: left of their own accord in foundation; encountered difficulties in basic (inconsistent training delivery has a lot to do with this) and ultimately got binned (a handful); were allowed through to AQC but then deemed unsuitable for airlines and blocked from TR (less than a handful); got through TR and showed weird behaviour in the flightdeck or struggled in line training (landing a 320 being a sticking point for some) and got binned by the Airline (unsure how many in total, but occasional cadets are being binned from Line Training now). Most cadets made it all the way through to flexicrew. Plenty had some performance issue somewhere along the way and got some extra training and got through. Wings cadets didn't pay extra cash for remedial flights (within reason) but iCP guys had to pay for extra lessons and tests. Those costs can really add up.

CTC will never, ever admit to you as being a customer. They always describe the airline as the customer. They might spin you the line that your training is a "partnership" but that's just marketing spiel. Despite the fact that you are paying for your own training (forget any kind of "sponsorship", it's not and to believe this is to be grossly naive, I think it's primarily a descriptive term used for tax and employment law advantages), CTC will look at you always as "product". During training, you need to stay within the performance and behavioural boundaries for their product. If you do this, even if you encounter difficulties, you should make it out the other side. Leave your sense of expectations behind. You are paying to be trained on a performance curve based around the notion of minimum hours training, plus probably about 10%. If you perform below this level, you are not necessarily a bad pilot, you are just becoming less profitable to train. CTC has budgeted a profit margin into your £85k training costs. There's some slack in there of perhaps 5-10% for some extra training, but there's not a lot before their target profit earnings start to be affected. If you can't show that any repeated performance issues are to do with how CTC is delivering your training (or not), the contracts allow them to bin you at their discretion with no refund if they feel like it.

Make no mistake, risk in this training system is contracted down almost entirely on to the cadet. If your family home is underpinning your loan, the risk runs all the way down to your inheritance.

If you understand this and can accept, mitigate and deal with it without emotion, you will be better off. My advice is have access to a good lawyer, and get everything of importance from CTC in writing. If it is not in writing, it was never said. Ensure that your performance records are accurate and any meetings you may need to have are recorded in detail, accurately. Keep copies of all of your training reports from every stage. Follow the chain of command for raising grievances or problems and always do it in writing, professionally. Never lose your cool with CTC representatives. You may need to rely on all of this one day to survive. If you have it all and never need it, it was good insurance. If you have it and need it, it's better. If you don't have it and do need it, you are your own worst enemy. I have seen enough examples of very hooky performance management in NZ to last me a lifetime.

There is also a situation that you may encounter, that goes like this:

You are on day 1 of the Bournemouth Instrument Rating, having completed the NZ phases of training. A CTC representative gives you an envelope with a letter in it, that you "must sign in order for us to continue your training". That letter says "I, the undersignee, hereby agree to irrevocably authorise CTC to remain in possession of my bond and pass it directly to a partner airline.". Without access to your Basic Contract, you may well believe that you must sign it. If your Basic Contract is like my Basic Contract, then you don't need to sign anything and what the CTC representative is telling you is a material lie. The Basic Contract states that the "Training Bond" is passed back to the cadet who is then responsible for passing it to the Partner Airline [at the appropriate time]... alternatively, the cadet may authorise CTC to pass it directly to the Partner Airline. In no way is further training delivery contingent upon the cadet irrevocably signing away his/her right to ever handle their training bond again. If you do not understand the implications of what I am saying now, just go and check your contract and wait for day one of Bournemouth, and be sure not to sign that letter without a written position from CTC and advice from your legal counsel. It seems like a small thing, but actually, it's a really big thing to do with truth, power and manipulation, and you getting your hands on £85k of bond.

Leave your ego at the door. It sounds harsh, but just because you get into CTC you are not special. The best pilots, IMO, are the open ones with humility about themselves and the whole flying affair. Trainees who give the impression that they get it right every time and don't make mistakes are just not being honest. You'll see this when you backseat your mates. Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone makes the same mistakes. Good pilots do the work, take advice and keep learning. The really good ones openly share their experiences, good and bad for the benefit of all, and support each other. The really, really good ones (who actually do get it right most of the time) are pretty rare. All Captains and FOs on the line make mistakes of varying sizes. That's the reason why there's two crew using CRM. Once you get on the line and you are relatively on your own, your attitude and professionalism towards your entire crew is just as important as your knowledge and skill as an individual pilot.

There is a hell of a lot more I could say about the program, but I would be writing forever, so I will try to sum up with some realism and positivity.

The longer I spent in the CTC program, the more and more I grew to feel little but contempt for CTC in respect to the way in which they view and treat cadets. It is important though to always understand the line between CTC management and business/managerial ethos, and your instructors. Most of the instructors I was trained by were good people. Every instructor in Bournemouth was really good and wanted me to succeed, supporting me when I found things difficult. The same with AQC and Type Rating. The whole situation changed with the GFC and Flexicrew. This was not what was described to us when we signed up, so my generation were really, really pissed off about CTC and EJ management moving the goalposts and making us pay more money (which was achievable through the careful compartmentalisation of contracts). Being a Flexicrew pilot was not to my liking, as I was still at the machination of a CTC contract and one of their employees administering aspects of my life. easyJet management are fully complicit in the treatment of Flexicrew pilots. It is an openly stated managerial goal to increase flexicrew and flexiterms within the company, resisted only by the various unions and national employment legislation. But, flexicrew was ultimately a stepping stone to full, permanent employment with an airline in basically the minimum time it can be done (and the greatest upfront and long term outlay!). CTC will train you to fly under a vertically integrated programme. This means, in practical terms, minimum hours and minimum required experience to do the end job. This is not necessarily a good thing, and the onus at all times is on the cadet to put in a lot of work. As a cadet, you are not entitled to anything other than the training you paid for. You are not entitled to a TR, a job, a permanent contract etc. Being a flexicrew pilot does not entitle you to a permanent job. You're a contractor until the day that, for one reason or another, you're not. Once you start at the airline, selection by other means continues. It is not like a regular job. If you turn up on airline day one thinking you've made it, you are very wrong. It's just the next stage of selection, except you're not really being trained in the previous sense anymore because you are now directly responsible for knowing your stuff and the lives of everyone on board. Line Training is really a sort of refinement process.

Forget as well the notion of Partner Airlines. The truth of the matter is this: CTC had a five year training contract with eJ for cadet pilots that expired in 2009. The renegotiation of the subsequent contract resulted in Flexicrew. ~95% of CTC cadets went to eJ as a result of these two inter-company agreements. The ones who went to other airlines were basically "sold", as it were, on a very small scale, almost piecemeal basis. That's not to say that CTC have not shown their cadets positive support. I am aware of individuals who for one reason or another came out of eJ, got some more CTC sim time and managed to go to another UK airline, but they are minority cases. The couple who went to Gulf Air got those jobs off their own back by applying directly when they had the hours (as I understand). The guys in Tiger got that off their own backs (to CTC's financial detriment, triggering contractual changes for later Flexi pilots to lock them down by bonding them for the TR). The current BA recruitment and the guys going there are doing that off their own back. Sure, they started with CTC and eJ, but the BA successes are not of CTC's making. Beware marketing rhetoric, it is always removed from reality.

Also, my advice based on the content of the training, the limit of the license, the price, and the opinions of every airline pilot I've flown with, is to avoid the MPL at all costs. It's nearly the same price as the full integrated programme, I believe. I wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. At least I got to do some real flying and burned some fuel for my £70k before I started trusting an FMGC everyday. I would feel cheated with an MPL. Plus the restrictions on the qualification are utterly ridiculous. You can only fly for that one operator until you get a full ATPL. You're bent over even more barrels than I was! If you're on the MPL, don't expect me to debate this with you. Knowing what I know now, I would rather not have trained than taken the risks you are taking on that course. If you are binned by the airline before you get your ATPL, your TR is not transferrable, as I understand it. That's very, very, very bad IMO. Not to mention the even lower level of net experience.

If you still think that you can enter the game and, if it all goes pear shaped, you can just go bankrupt and write it all off, think again. Aside from the fact that unsecured funding is hard to come by, UK bankruptcy laws have quietly changed. Recent bankruptees have been assessed in detail by the courts and ordered under IPOs to pay all their disposable income to their creditors. 18 months to 2 years ago, people were going bankrupt and not getting IPOs and therefore paying nothing. Trouble in Ireland and bankruptcy tourism has triggered a harder line nowadays, so it's not the dump valve it once was.

By contrast a mate of mine went to another FTO and once getting to CPL/ME/IR, that was it. CTC had more drive to sell their products further down the line (by getting the eJ training contracts) than his flightschool did, who were just happy to take his £65k and leave it there. No AQC, TR, job etc. He's now back doing what he did before (fortunately he earns a fortune) but he'd rather be flying, and if he could get the Flexicrew deal he would take it. Would I do this again? Probably. Overall, it's a pretty good job. There was a lot of crap, stress and big sacrifices, but life moves onwards and upwards. And I had a much, much easier ride than the self-improvers who did every flying and non-flying job for years before getting near a jet.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

catfoodtastesbad

20th Sep 2011, 12:57

An excellent summary of what to expect from CTC. Thank you for the time taken to write that, a real eye-opener!

I applied to CTC and passed selection a year ago and was stunned at the way they tried to sign me up straight away. The contracts were biased and they asked me to make a decision within 24 hours of whether or not to accept. Naturally I had many questions, and whilst most were answered well, some crucial ones were ignored such as my request to see a flexicrew contract.

Having said this, they are still above the other options as far as getting a job goes. How many OAA and FTE non-mentored grads have flying jobs? My bet is fewer than CTC.

Bealzebub

20th Sep 2011, 13:44

Transcendental

An excellent, honest and well written piece. A valuble contribution of your time and personal experience, that should be read by anybody considering this route into the industry.

A good balance of praise and criticism where due, and where something is an opinion, you make that clear.

I very much believe that this is one of the better routes into a very difficult industry for aspiring "cadets," and have advocated this and similar routes for some time now. That is always balanced by the absolute requirement to do "your homework" and get proper, meaningful advice at all relevant stages.

Risk can only be mitigated, it simply cannot be eliminated, and the pursuit of that mitigation is often time consuming, added expense, and fairly mundane, when wrapped in the excitement and euphoria of a career prospect somewhere over the horizon.

Having read your post a few times, I can find almost nothing I would disagree with materially, and a great deal that I would agree with, much of which is absolutely pure common sense. That you have taken so much time to write something so useful and meaningful, should be appreciated by anybody with a serious interest in this subject.

Well done!

shorty79

9th Oct 2011, 15:50

Anyone else here starting as a cadet in December 2011?

pipersam

10th Oct 2011, 13:17

stevop21,

I've just finished my groundschool with CTC and I'm due to fly off to NZ on the 9th November.

I completely agree with the above posts, but just to add a few little extras and my personal opinion:

Most of the guys on my course have accepted the fact that flexicrew is the most likely outcome at the end of the course. Looking at the statistics of flexicrew, most of the guys are earning well in excess of what you would be earning as a cadet entry pilot and even some direct entry salaries. The obvious downside is that you are not on a contract, thus no security and no guarantee of flying hours.

The other thing to think about is how the market is set to improve over the next year (touch wood that nothing brings it crashing back down again such as the EU economy...). CTC are bringing a lot more students into the wings course which has been evident of the three courses joining after I started. We've also been told that the hold pool is due to be empty by the end of year and the increasing likelihood of a very short wait, if any, after finishing the AQC. Also, if the demand for pilots keeps increasing, then with it will likely come added benefits including going straight onto contract with Easyjet, joining other airlines as cadet/direct entry, cheaper type ratings and higher wages.

Also, CTC may handover endless pages of contracts to sign, with clauses making you feel like your handing your life over to them, but remember that they are a business, and they will always protect themselves. Saying this, CTC are not in a position to receive bad publicity. As an example, one of the clauses in the contract states that you may be ejected from the hold pool after a period of 12 months if you have not been employed. Whilst this is in the contract, you'll find that CTC have never actually done this. Even during the economic crisis.

However, this is all to be taken with a pinch of salt, as things are said, rumours are spread, and as always, marketing departments remain at the top of the expenditure spreadsheet. What is evident though, as said previously, CTC still provides the best employment opportunities.

Regards

PrestonPilot

10th Oct 2011, 14:14

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-158.html#post5059017

Does that seem so stupid now?

TheBeak in mid 2009:

If CTC did make those claims, well, jolly good. I look forward to it happening. As I have said, I use this thread as a measuring stick of the market amongst other things and that sounds like great news - I might have to start up a new thread entitled - 'CTC say there is a pilot shortage looming and that BA will need 400 pilots in a year and a half, Yessss.'

MFB

11th Oct 2011, 20:19

Hi folks

I'm attending CTC soon for aptitude tests and the numerical test.

I've had a look through the thread and have seen the type of questions that are in the numerical test.

Can anyone provide examples of questions that may be asked in the numerical test?

pipersam

11th Oct 2011, 20:45

You can expect to see some long multiplication and division in there for sure.

A typical example would be:

"U.S. Gallons to Litres Conversion Factor = 3.785.

An aircraft has a fuel burn of 200 U.S. Gallons per hour. What is the aircrafts hourly fuel burn in Litres?"

Expect some awkwardly worded questions trying to catch you out as well.

Rastablasta

16th Oct 2011, 19:17

Sorry if this is a FAQ or generally stupid question but do you get a calculator for the numerical tests? or is it all mental maths?

G-TD

16th Oct 2011, 22:17

No calculator I'm afraid, just pen, paper and brain :)

StevieW

17th Oct 2011, 16:40

Qatar Airways will, apparently, be taking a number of CTC cadets over the coming months. Initially this will be around 20 but I'd imagine it will increase afterwards.

ozziecrew

22nd Oct 2011, 04:06

Stevie W

Where did you hear about CTC and Qatar tie up?

G-TD

22nd Oct 2011, 10:22

I think there was something about CTC and Qatar in their latest internal newsletter. Apparently Qatar require quite a few pilots over the next few years and there will be a requirement for 20 so cadets towards the end of 2012. I don't know whether this will be FO's for their short haul fleet, or SO's for their long haul fleet.

ozziecrew

22nd Oct 2011, 12:40

cheers for that!

Rastablasta

23rd Oct 2011, 09:54

For the CTC wings cadet course, on application through the online facility, are A level predicted grades accepted or will I have to finish my application upon receiving my grades?

G-TD

23rd Oct 2011, 10:24

This is something that I think you will need to ask the selection team directly. However I would imagine that it would be best to wait until you have official examination results.

patm92

23rd Oct 2011, 14:41

Is anyone else starting as a Cadet in February 2012?

Wee Weasley Welshman

23rd Oct 2011, 16:46

Transcendental:

Outstanding post. Thank you very much.

WWW. :D:ok:

Rastablasta

23rd Oct 2011, 18:23

Just going through the online application for CTC, on the part where you enter schools and grades, do you need to list a subject twice if you got 2 GCSE's in it?

Also, if I complete both GCSE and A level at the same school, do I list them seperately with one as a secondary school and one as a college?

albertoara29

3rd Nov 2011, 16:25

Anyone who starts the AQC next 14th of November?
Please contact me.

MJS23

8th Nov 2011, 20:34

I've just successfully passed CTC's selection & I am now weighing up whether or not to start training with the company, does anyone know the number of people starting the CTC wings cadet course each year compared to the number that fail?

shorty79

9th Nov 2011, 21:23

“We are very proud of our training record and more than 98% of our cadets complete training with flying colours. However, when you are investing significant funds into your career, it is good to know that a considerable amount of the financial risk is reduced where possible. By increasing our ‘Bond Protection’ to £40,000 we believe we offer the best such safeguard available for aspiring pilots. In addition to our strong track record, this ‘Bond Protection’ offers the added reassurance that your investment will be protected in the event of failure during training” explains Captain Lee Woodward, Executive Director of CTC and Head of CTC Wings.

CTC Wings announces bond protection | CTC Wings (http://www.ctcwings.com/news/article/ctc_wings_announces_pound40000_bond_protection)

ramyraul

14th Nov 2011, 08:25

thanks STREETY that was really so helpful.

MJS23

17th Nov 2011, 19:33

Is anyone currently a CTC Flexicrew pilot after training on the wings couse? Just wondering what the average hours per year are?

HPbleed

18th Nov 2011, 12:55

Plan on 0 because that's what's in the contract. Expect around 700-800 depending on base and how many more they take on this spring. I had 30 hours in november and 40 in december.... not enough to repay the loan. Good luck.

MJS23

21st Nov 2011, 11:52

But I thought it was £45 per hour? Surely with that you'd have enough? Sorry to hear you're struggling! Any sign of a permanent contract for you?

MJS23

21st Nov 2011, 11:57

Just realised how tight that must be, sorry man. Were you busier in summer months?

HPbleed

21st Nov 2011, 12:09

It's £43 an hour. Loan repayments are £1200 a month, living costs (rent, council tax, bills, insurance, breakdown cover, tv licence, phone bill and BALPA subs) are just over £500. That excludes petrol, road tax, MOT, clothes, a social life (who wanted one of those though right?) and food. So actually I tend to spend around £1900-£2000 mainly because my car has needed a bit of work lately.

Remember you will also need to pay for your own medical, your own uniform (and topups), your own loss of licence insurance and term assurance for your loan. I can't afford medical insurance so if for some reason I just can't fly but don't lose my licence I won't get anything.

Also, your student loan payments will be relatively high because it's taken out before you pay your professional studies loan.

So to be able to live "comfortably" (without saving anything and really without going out at all) you need about 65 hours a month. Each standby counts for 3.5 hours. So 60 hours and 2 standbys would be ok.

November was exactly 24 hours plus several standbys. December isn't much better. Yes, during the summer I was working about 75 hours a month, but had to pay off some of the professional studies loan - which I couldn't pay off during the initial 8 month period where we all get £1200 a month. So had nothing saved. But now, once again I'm unable to make full payments on my loan so am back into arrears.

Anyone who is considering flexicrew, unless you live at home and have wealthy parents to feed you and clothe you I would think twice. Oh yeah, did I forget to mention I had to borrow £8000 for the inital Type Rating? Still paying that back too.

For those who are going to say "well you shouldn't have done it - you knew the risks" because I know you're out there, then yes, you're right, I shouldn't have. But then I'd still be working behind a bar on minimum wage, with the loan STILL sitting there in the bank. At least I've started paying it off and I'm doing a job I love (once the door's closed), but would I do it again, or recommend it to someone starting out? Hell no. And it wasn't anything like this when I started training - remember that.

MJS23

21st Nov 2011, 13:46

Mate I'm sorry it's so tight. Did you get a choice to take the flexicrew or wait for a cadet entry contract? How long we're you in the holdpool? Could we maybe have a chat tonight either on Skype or phone? I've got alot of questions and you have already been a massive help! Cheers

HPbleed

21st Nov 2011, 14:13

Over a year in the hold pool. No choice, if I'd turned down a TR and Flexicrew, guys after me would have accepted it. There is the option of permanent European contracts, maybe a year after you join, but unfortunately they don't work for me due personal commitments.

Just want people to be aware it isn't as great as CTC and easyJet make it out to be.

greywind

21st Nov 2011, 16:01

Did you get a choice to take the flexicrew or wait for a cadet entry contract?
There isn't a choice, it's flexicrew or nothing. I'm sure CTC will tell you things will be different by the time you finish your course - I wouldn't bank on it.

MJS23

21st Nov 2011, 17:08

Yikes, all sounds a bit less jazzy eh! They've told me that no one stays on flexicrew for longer than 3 years before getting a permanent contract, is it looking that way for you? How are your course mates getting on now? Thanks so much for the answers dude!

HPbleed

21st Nov 2011, 19:10

Flexicrew came into existence two years ago. No-one knows what will happen at the end of the first three year contract.

No sign of permanent UK positions at all for forseeable future. There are discussions between BALPA and eJ at the moment but mainly about lifestyle and roster patterns. BALPA say they are talking about flexicrew but there has been no communication as yet about the state of play or what may come about.

As an aside, the FRV pattern is also a killer. A year is too much, 2 years results in constant fatigue. And if you call in fatigued you don't get paid. If you call in sick, you don't get paid. Guys I know have turned up with flu for a Sharm el Sheik just so they get their £500. CAA safety department don't want to know anything about it.

MJS23

21st Nov 2011, 20:12

crazy. Do you mind me asking how much loan you had to take out? Have you heard from your coursemates and how they're getting on? Everyone go to Easyjet? Don't know how i'll make this decision...

HPbleed

21st Nov 2011, 22:42

£60'000 (unsecured). Everyone is in the same boat unless their parents paid for it - but do you want to risk your parents house for what is now £100'000 secured? I certainly wouldn't. I was lucky enough to get in before it got even worse. I can only advise you to get as much of an education as possible, become a doctor, a lawyer, architect whatever, and fly for fun.

greywind

22nd Nov 2011, 08:16

Just £60,000 unsecured? Most I know are around £75,000 plus a £10,000 living allowance loan - that was back in the day when HSBC were dishing the loans out.

HPbleed

22nd Nov 2011, 09:14

Yes, just £60k. There was option of £10'000 living allowances, but I worked hard in the year lead up and had £4000 which was more than sufficient to live in NZ for a year, considering accomodation and transport is provided. That was 2007, look how much it has gone up in 4 years.

MJS23 I graduated in summer 2009, the training generally was average, particularly in NZ. Young instructors just hour building to get into an NZ airline. Bournemouth was noticeably better with experienced instructors who had once upon a time flown for an airline or military.

The repayments are so high because I spent 14/15 months between graduating and getting a job with flexicrew. In that time I did a lot of part time and temporary work to try and pay the bills - they gave us no idea of when we might actually get a position so it was difficult to get a full time job. The loan was sat there, HSBC had agreed to interest only payments, but the time scale never changed, so effectively I'm now paying off the same amount but in 5 and a half years instead of 7.

MJS23

22nd Nov 2011, 19:16

Did you hear of anyone getting UK cadet or direct entry contracts? Will you look to forfeit the loan and move airlines at the end of your 3 year contract?

Flies-like-a-chicken

22nd Nov 2011, 19:49

Does anyone have an idea how long the wait is now before starting with EJ after graduation? I would have thought the recession might reduce the waiting time...

Dct_Mopas

22nd Nov 2011, 20:51

Steveop, most flexicrew do indeed try and swap duties to gain more hours in a month. Problem is when you only have 4 days flying in a month then this is limited, especially as once you have a day off then it can't be swapped for a flight. Even worse when captains are agreeing to fly from the right hand seat and thus reduce hours for flexicrew even more, fun and games . . . .

MJS23

22nd Nov 2011, 21:02

Can you work a second job while on Flexicrew to top up your earnings?

HPbleed

23rd Nov 2011, 03:05

Are you serious? Yes you can, but come on, how many doctors have second jobs. Don't sign on the dotted line just because you think you'll be able to get a second job. It sounds like you're willing to sell your soul - honestly, don't do it. you'll drive the terms and conditions down even further.

MJS23

23rd Nov 2011, 07:12

Definitely not thinking of that, quite the opposite. Where are you based out of?

greywind

23rd Nov 2011, 13:03

MJS23 - yep you can work a second job the contract states that you can't do any other work that is flying based and it's difficult unless it's really flexible work. You don't know what you're doing each month until the 15th before - not the easiest to work hours around.
Personally I worked as a web designer and was already set up for freelance work so I've done that on quiet months as it's easy to work from home and fit around stuff - I doubt many people are so lucky, certainly no one I know of.

In reply to a few earlier posts
stevop21 - yes you can swap shifts but it's not as straight forward as it seems. You can only swap standby or rest days and even then it has to fit nicely with other duties - I've had 3 of 3 swap requests denied last month.

Flies-like-a-chicken - Time to EZY from finishing, no idea. It was a year when I did it but I think it's come down a bit now.

MJS23

Did you hear of anyone getting UK cadet or direct entry contracts? Will you look to forfeit the loan and move airlines at the end of your 3 year contract?
There are no direct entry contacts at EZY, everyone goes onto flexicrew and the only people who get contracts elsewhere as far as I know, have done so off their own backs.
By forfeiting the loan I assume you are referring the bond that EZY pay to cover the rest of the TR costs? In that case if you leave before 3 years at EZY then you get a bill for the remaining costs, the amount decreases by rates set in your contract. If you get a full time contract at EZY (that includes EZY Swiss) then this is considered to be waived and you don't have to worry about it.

MJS23

24th Nov 2011, 16:49

Thanks for that mate. Do you know the average hours flexicrew pilots work in a year? Trying to calculate the likely scenarios!

greywind

24th Nov 2011, 16:52

It varies wildly, mainly depending on your base, but between 750 and the 900 yearly limit - a fair range there. You do have standby's, training days and night stop pay on top.
There's also no guarantee that you'll be near that, most people flew more hours last winter for example so the average may well be down over the coming year.

MJS23

25th Nov 2011, 07:19

Thanks sparksy83. Did you come through CTC? What's the smallest number of hours you've heard of someone working on flexicrew? Do you know the minimum number of hours you have to fly per year to keep your license active? Cheers

greywind

25th Nov 2011, 08:18

I did come through CTC yes.
The smallest I've heard of is just under 650 hours but that included a month and a half of being off sick. I don't think I've known anyone do less than 750 a year.

As for keeping your licence active it depends on which one. The CPL/IR that you leave CTC with only needs a yearly IR renewal to be done - the first of which can be done in the sim to save cost.
Once you're type rated and effectively have the fATPL then you have recency requirements but I can't remember what they are off the top of my head - I wouldn't be concerned though if you're working as you're unlikely to drop under those requirements and the company monitor it anyway.

MJS23

25th Nov 2011, 08:54

Thanks mate, a big help. Hopefully starting Wings in April so will see where the industry is in 2 years I guess!

FANS

25th Nov 2011, 11:42

MJS23 - is there anything that previous posters would have written that would make you not sign up to Wings next year?!

The Western world is absolutely on its knees, even businesses such as TCX are really struggling, EZY are barely paying the minimum wage (after training costs are taken into account), and you're queuing up!

This industry is absolutely knackered.

mrblueeye

25th Nov 2011, 13:38

hi just spent £400 on round trip to oxford for flights, hotel and course fees etc scored 37 out of 42 not good enough for easyjet mpl course, dont tell what that should be even when asked but your good enough to train with us OAA for £85 grand! what a rip off.! felt i had done really well
save your self the time and money and stay away

Erwan

25th Nov 2011, 14:18

Hi everyone,

I'm french, i was succesfull yesterday at CTC assessment day.
Are there any other candidats who succeed on the 24th November? If you come on this post contact me via mp...

peppe_1982

25th Nov 2011, 15:38

Hi guys anyone on the AQC course starting on the 3rd of January 2012? please contact me..

gwizzaviatior

27th Nov 2011, 19:22

Hi guys,
I am posting on this thread because I am getting no real response from the CTC ATP thread.

I am looking to apply to the CTC Wings ATP Scheme, and understand that the application requires to undetake the PILAPT tests. I have done quite a bit of research regarding this, and have found the following sources of the tests (or different versions)

Pilot Aptitude Test Trainer (PATT) (http://www.fl350software.com/) £35.00
deviation game - Latest Pilot Jobs provides the latest aviation vacancies around the world. (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/deviation-game.html) £39.95 for a month
https://www.pilotest.com/english/PILAPT.html E109 euro
Pilot computer test software: pilot aptitude test, job application, pilot recruitment. (http://www.cockpitweb.com/pilottest.html) £149

I have already purchased 1, and it is ok, however I think it might be missing some items (TRAX and patterns).

For those that have done the tests, and purchased the software, which one would you say is the most similar to the real thing that one would do on the day at Southampton.

PLINKY DEL MAYO

28th Nov 2011, 09:04

The reason you aren't getting a response is because very few people will buy more than one piece of software just to make a comparison.

Save yourself a fortune and do it here (http://latestpilotjobs.com/compass-and-pilot-aptitude-tests.html) for free.

gwizzaviatior

28th Nov 2011, 13:57

Hi Pilot dream2

Thanks for clarifying that point regardingthe compass tests that plinky del mayo directed me onto. It didn't look quite right, cheers!

Just wondering with regards to PILAPT, if you have any inputs with regards to the correct form,

Kind regards

MJS23

29th Nov 2011, 10:28

sparksy83 do you know how it works when your first contracted to flexicrew with regards to where you're based? Is it the same base for the 3 years or can they change this whenever they like? cheers!

greywind

29th Nov 2011, 13:38

Steveop - line training is normally done at your home base. You'll normally get your basing options during Type Rating.

MJS23 - when you're type rating you'll be offered a choice of bases, whichever easyjet feel they need cadets to start at. On our TR we were offered Newcastle, Gatwick or Bristol. You then get to choose in seniority order as laid down by CTC.
On the contract you can be moved at 3 months notice and you can't request to change base, you are based where they say you are. In reality you'll stay at the base you're placed at, I only know of once when people were moved.
They do occasionally have base swap opportunities where everyone who wants to change base send their preferences to CTC and if they can do a straight swap they move you, but in reality these don't appear to be that useful and I don't know anyone who has managed to successfully move with a base swap.

sp33dfr33k

30th Nov 2011, 17:03

Hi everyone,

I am looking to attend CTC for selection in the next couple of months.

Could someone please let me know what to expect?

It would be particularly handy if anyone had examples of questions asked in the maths test and interview.

Also, does anyone have examples of what to expect in the group/teamwork sessions?

Sorry to be a pain....have scoured the site but the number of different threads is incredible now and finding the relevant information is like trying to find a needle in a hay stack!

It would also be great if someone preferred to PM the info.

Many thanks!

toolowtoofast

30th Nov 2011, 18:22

I suggest you start reading the previous 200-odd pages. Every item of information you need is contained in this thread.

bedders2

1st Dec 2011, 10:48

You will be required to answer questions such as-
572-335,
How long will it take to descend to 18,000 from 33,000 if you rate of descent is 1800ft per min
how much fuel is required to complete a flight if.....blah blah blah
166*43
Currency conversions
Cube/square routes

The Pilapt testing is an experience, you have 3 attempts at each exercise, and they look for improvements on each attempt.....

The group exercise consists of, 'your fishing of the coast, when you boat sinks, you can take so many items with you, what would you take'. There is no correct answer, they are looking to see how you interact and work as a team, don't be afraid to make your views known.

Good luck

patm92

7th Dec 2011, 20:08

Is anyone else starting as a cadet on CP94, 27 February 2012? PM me if you are.

bedders2

7th Dec 2011, 23:02

I start in June....however may start earlier if a slot becomes available.

It will be great to hear how your getting on and your thoughts of the course through out

Hezza

12th Dec 2011, 10:10

Anyone here attend the selection last Thursday (8th)? ...If so, drop me a PM

StevieW

18th Dec 2011, 13:43

Rumours around that the hold pool has now completely disappeared? Is this true? We don't get told anything as cadets, everything we find out is through the grapevine!

giggitygiggity

18th Dec 2011, 14:56

For what its worth, I can confirm that this is indeed a current rumour, i think the 20 cadets going to qatar prpbably cleared the remainder of the pool

patm92

18th Dec 2011, 17:32

Thats intersesting. So does that know mean that the cadets are going straight to an airline, without any delay after training?

LHRjc

18th Dec 2011, 17:46

How many cadets are finishing training each month currently out of interest?

M1ghtyDuck

18th Dec 2011, 19:01

However big a course is, every two months. I think there are a max of 24 in each CP? But when a course isn't full there'd be less obviously.

Bealzebub

18th Dec 2011, 19:24

Thats intersesting. So does that know mean that the cadets are going straight to an airline, without any delay after training?

Yes. That is pretty much the case at the moment. However, it should also be remembered that October to January is a peak recruitment season in the UK as training usually needs to be complete before the busy summer starts. Obviously this is because training resources are generally much tighter after Easter.

Nevertheless, sectors of the UK and European market may well result in demand pressure on a year round basis, and overseas demand may well add to that.

A good time to be a graduating cadet at the moment, and hopefully that will spread out into the ATP pool on an accelerating basis.

speedmac

19th Dec 2011, 08:44

hopefully that will spread out into the ATP pool on an accelerating basis.

Well they've taken a few ATP guys. Do you expect more to be taken? How many do you think are likely? Thanks

patm92

31st Dec 2011, 13:16

Hey Guys

Any cadets starting on CP94, 27 February 2012? ?

PM me . . .

MJS23

1st Jan 2012, 20:25

Anyone else starting wings this April on CP95? Be great to chat. Happy New Year people.

EGMC

2nd Jan 2012, 17:56

I am just curious about how many cadets are at the first stages of the CTC chain... Would you be able to comment on how many are on CP95 & CP94.

M1ghtyDuck

5th Jan 2012, 12:00

I'm starting in April too, PM me if you'd like a chat MJS23.

vikdream

5th Jan 2012, 18:48

Does anybody know the current pass rate for the cadets scheme for stages 2-3?

I have been reading all the comments in this thread and it was around 25% back in 2006 (50% passed stage 2 and 50% passed stage 3, which were assessed in different days). Considering the current global crisis and the fact that there is not any unsecured loan for successfull applicants any more (plus the fact that the price has gone up till circa 80k GBP, taking into account the cost of the foundation course at the current exchange rate), I guess they are currently not receiving 800 applications a month as they did in 2006-2007 (or that has been told in this forum). Therefore I suppose it might be a bit easier to be selected or am I totally wrong?

M1ghtyDuck

5th Jan 2012, 20:19

It's done on a "reach the standard" system. So if they're oversubscribed and you're good enough, you'll get in and just get put on a later course.

Similarly, if they're undersubscribed and you're crap, they won't take you. Courses run under capacity all the time they don't just fill them up with the next best candidates, they can't afford to risk their repuation and 100% record.

average-punter

6th Jan 2012, 20:01

I've not been keeping up much with CTC recently but am booked onto their open day in March.

What are the current airlines taking from the CTC holdpool? I know Easy, Monarch and possibly Qatar in the future. Anyone else?

Something that I don't really understand is the Monarch MPL, surely this involved some sort of investment and planning by Monarch as the MPL cannot be issued without a tagged airline. In a time where Monarch seems to be narrowing its operations e.g 787s cancelled, why are they doing this? What do they have to gain from the MPL? Surely using the regular CPL/IR holders would be far cheaper and easier for them...

Cheers!

Paperplanes89

6th Jan 2012, 22:46

I'd also like to ask vikdream's question - does anyone know the rough pass rate? I've heard wildly different stats about this!

OMGisThatJohn

8th Jan 2012, 17:44

As far as I know, CTC's airlines are Easyjet, Easyjet suisse and DHL. The Monarch scheme is MPL I believe.

I've heard something somewhere (but no solid information at all) RE some middle east partners, but nothing concrete.

With The two Easyjet groups, you should expect to be "posted" at one of their bases in Europe.

alpha.charlie

8th Jan 2012, 22:38

they can't afford to risk their repuation and 100% record

What 100% record?!

.......and for that matter.....what reputation?!

Ollie23

8th Jan 2012, 23:06

Similarly, if they're undersubscribed and you're crap, they won't take you. Courses run under capacity all the time they don't just fill them up with the next best candidates, they can't afford to risk their repuation and 100% record.

haha maybe in the good old days, but things are a bit different now.

Paperplanes89

9th Jan 2012, 10:52

2% pass rate? For all I know it could be true but it seems a little low, afterall pass rate for the BA FPP was 1/40 and that included the 2/3's they got rid of at the application stage!

Ollie23

9th Jan 2012, 23:56

having failed my maths test at first (by 2 marks), and passing all other parts of the assessment, I had to wait 3 months to retake, then I blitzed the maths and was offered a place. So they will not just take anyone to fill places.

True they won't take anyone, but lets face it the maths test is not exactly rocket science. Any semi competent person who does their research on the type of questions and then practices can easily pass. Even then they let you do it again anyway having seen what the questions are like so you can make sure you don't fail again!!

transcendental

11th Jan 2012, 15:14

The CTC Maths test is farcical. It's below GCSE level mental arithmetic.

The fact that someone on here failed it and was allowed a resit, then goes on to say that "CTC doesn't let just anyone in," is a statement lacking credibility.

To put this into a wider context, though, the BA DEP test battery of verbal reasoning, maths and capacity test were no harder, a bit harder, the same respectively.

In real world context of practically flying a jet on the line, with a fully working FMGC and a calculator in your bag, I will happily and honestly admit to requiring no greater abilities than using my 1 to 10 times tables (3 in particular), a bit of rounding, subtraction, addition and very coarse division.

This illustrates a serious problem of self-perception amongst wannabes and newbies.

The skills and abilities to be a commercial pilot are neither particularly special nor do they set you apart from the rest of humanity, thereby giving you some reason to blow sunshine up your own arses and think the world, the training school or any airline owes you jack **** at the end.

Pilots I fly with are not stupid people (but I only fly with Captains, the majority of whom did not come through the CTC-esque route). In this game now, the primary thing required is access to cash to fund your chosen route to license and beyond. Anyone can get the cash, if they want it badly enough. Anyone.

The entire assessment process for CTC, FTE, OAA, BA ad others are laid bare on this forum and others, effectively enabling people to conduct the most focussed form of preparation possible. It couldn't be much easier.

Still, people fail CTC selection and experienced pilots fail BA DEP selection at paper, interview and sim stage. There are a lot of reasons why.

In my opinion, one major thing that sets pilots apart from others is the will to accept the responsibility. Another is the base level ability to absorb information through all senses, scan, process and act on it. This can be massively improved with practice, but we all know people who can barely drive a car, don't we?

The ATPL exams can be completely cheated because the system is corrupted by practically first principles. Those exams are not a barrier to entry.

The truth about where you are going with these schools is also out there, for all to see. Train with CTC now and you are training to be a contract pilot on Flexicrew, one of the ****test contracts in the flying world. If anything else, such as Qatar, comes up when you are in the hold pool, that's luck not skill that gets you a go at that chance. That's the minority case.

Following this route now, into the right hand seat under Flexicrew contracts is literally destroying the present and future state of the job of commercial airline pilot. Not just in easyJet, but in BA and anyone who competes with eJ. Ryanair did it first, now eJ, and BA are on the way, starting with their FPP Cadet scheme, which is the SAME as CTC Wings for eJ used to be, with all the same risks.

What you are entering is not a profession. Remember that when you start on a Flexicrew contract, before you start whining to the Captain. At best, it's now a vocation, except what other vocation will have you possibly bankrupt at the end of the training period, or still possibly in that position while you're doing the job?

There are significant numbers of pilots in eJ now who cannot afford to pay their loan, their rent, their bills, get to work and buy food. These people are jointly responsible for 160 lives and they are being treated worse than monkeys, and they are trapped in debt, partly through their original choices, and that debt situation is exploited by CTC and eJ for their own profit gains.

They won't be sacked because the zero hour contract makes that unnecessary even if the airline's overcrewed by 30%. Because they have a contract, they can't claim the dole. Not sure if they can claim any other form of income support, but the fact that I am telling you about airline pilots and income support in the same paragraph should tell you what you need to know.

paulweller84

11th Jan 2012, 22:49

Hi, new here! Can anyone clear something up for me - on the CTC website it states the bond can be secured against a property, but would you have to actually have the cost of the bond paid off on the mortgage? I have only owned my house for 2 years and am 'slightly' off owning £70,000 odd of my house!

Bealzebub

11th Jan 2012, 23:33

Paul,

It isn't quite that simple. The bond has to be lodged (paid) in instalments. It is paid in cash. The cash may be raised by a commercial secured loan. These loans are in effect by way of a second mortgage (if there already is a first one.) Once the new loan is added to the existing one, the total sum shouldn't normally exceed 60% of the value of the property.

For example if you have a property worth £250,000 with an existing mortgage of £80,000, then the maximum sum that could usually be advanced would be around £70,000 (based on the 60% equity ceiling.) If you already owed £150,000, then that property would not provide security or be acceptable for this type of loan. It would also require that you could afford the new combined loan by way of normal lending criteria restrictions.

Where this isn't possible, a guarantor may be able to provide the necessary surity, however they would assume all the same risks.

BerksFlyer

12th Jan 2012, 00:13

Great post transcendental.

Putting things into context though, very few jobs require a high level of natural ability and there are many many people (perhaps the majority outside of graduates) who lack even the most basic numerical and verbal abilities. But I do agree with your sentiment regarding 'pilot assessment' type tests.

transcendental

12th Jan 2012, 00:33

StevieW - a standard student loan is not 84K plus foundation, plus living costs, plus Type Rating. A standard student loan is not pushing 120k.

A student loan doesn't necessarily rule out buying a house for the duration of the pay back.

A student loan does not have to be secured.

Pilot training should attract a student status and all the things that go with it.

Your observation about 700 hours a year is not standing the test of time at present. I know of plenty of people getting 8, 15, 20, 30, 45 hours in a month for the last three months.

When you look at the take home pay that equates to, then compare that to minimum living costs you are looking at a deficit.

Going one month into arrears on a loan that's about 1250 a month in repayments means you need to find double the amount next month. Try doing that if you get two months at 30 hours a piece.

You really need to be getting minimum 50 hours a month to break even and that;s with a very low rent and doing very little in your spare time. This is not being achieved consistently by plenty of people this winter.

The so-called winter hours protection of 30 hours a month does not help. You have to wait three months before that pay out is made good, and then it's only a retrospective top up to 100 hours over three months. The damage done to you in the three months is not fixed with the retrospective payment.

I think you are naive to try to defend Flexicrew. If you look at what is happening now and project forwards, it's not a good outlook.

Flexicrew is being used to radically undermine the pilot employment landscape. It is dividing pilots over what is inherently a safety critical issue. It is allowing a small minority of people to profiteer off the backs of trainee and low hour pilots.

Ollie23

12th Jan 2012, 01:08

Yes excellent post indeed.

I don't check this thread often but I've just read transcendental's other post on page 198 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-198.html) of this thread. It is without doubt the most valuable contribution to this whole thread (and I trawled through the whole lot whilst preparing for the selection).

It should be made a sticky and read by anyone contemplating this course.

paulweller84

12th Jan 2012, 08:19

Ollie23, thanks for pointing me in the direction of that post. Great reading.

As much as I have great interest for this career, I cannot contemplate risking my home for it when CTC operate the way they appear to.

My fiancee and I have a lovely home and I do a job I enjoy (most of the time) that has career progression prospects and my quality of life is great, does anyone else think it would it be a silly move to risk it all and sign up for the cadet program?

I deliberately didn't get my hopes up before going head first into this, I was prepared to uncover the stories that would 'put the brakes on.'

BlackandBrown

12th Jan 2012, 11:19

Make your own decision Paul.

I can't argue with one word transcendental says - he or she has said it all exactly as it is.

alpha.charlie

12th Jan 2012, 11:42

With the hold pool gone, and CTC seemingly expanding their horizons with regards to airline contacts and cadet placements (Qatar Airways, Royal Brunei, Cathay Pacific - flyDubai and Etihad are apparently next), the FlexiCrew arrangement may become more favourable to the pilot.

Virgin Atlantic, American Airlines and NASA are also apparently coming soon!

transcendental

12th Jan 2012, 14:48

I will spell this out as best I can, again.

The thing any wannabe trainee has got to get over first is... themselves. It is your own notion of what you are walking into that is the first and biggest weakness.

In hindsight, my knowledge was majorly lacking. It is through pure luck that I did not go bankrupt (although now I wish I had, at the right time, before the law tightened up), and it is through relative luck of timing that I got off the contracting and got other options in flying, other than Flexicrew. It was also my hardline choice to not trust my airline's vague promise of what might happen tomorrow and instead simply take what was on the table that has given me a better position than Flexicrew. Plenty of others have gone the other way and they are really paying the price.

You simply cannot believe whatever CTC tell you about the future, if you are a trainee.

Firstly, they are in a 5 year deal with eJ to supply pilots on Flexicrew. They make a massive amount of money out of you being on Flexicrew, in addition to the profit they make from your training. That is a total vested interested, making them the absolute opposite of an impartial party. Your debt slavery is a direct financial benefit to their bottom line. Their bottom line keeps them in jobs, cash, cars and houses.

Second, CTC will negotiate with anyone to take their cadets. They tried it with Ryanair, who were never really interested, probably because they weren't willing to pay another supplier for TRs. Ryanair have nicely stitched up their own supply of 73 drivers, why let some other chisellers in on the action? "Partner" airlines are just airlines, willing to take cadets on whatever terms suit, primarily, the airline.

Understand the power and money relationship: CTC Cadets, provided they are trained inside the profit envelope, should generate some profit and a lot of cash flow into CTC. Sitting in the holdpool should not lose CTC money. Going to an airline on non-Flexi terms will bag CTC at least a headhunt fee = more profit. Going to eJ on Flexicrew will generate a 3 year revenue stream per cadet for CTC, which rapidly goes into the black well inside the first 8 months of your line operations, and stays black at your expense for the duration of your three years of uncertain exploitation.

CTC has no real power when it comes to calling shots in a negotiation with an airline. On what basis would it?

It's not good enough to say "Oh, the ME will always provide a get out clause." No it won't. What will happen in that region over the next five years? No one knows. Who knew Iran would threaten to close Hormuz? You're an idiot if you make statements like that. Anyway, the ME carriers are mainly not used to taking cadets. Qatar is just trying it now. Admittedly on actually good terms, but how long till their supply contract is changed and they wise up to the possibilities of Flexicrew. Think the ME has employment and labour laws even approaching Western Europe? These places are not democracies, for goodness sake. And how many years in total will it take you to be in a position to apply for a job with a big ME carrier who wants about 2500 hours P2? Enough for you to need to get out of the UK and away from your own ****ty credit rating, possibly.

To PaulWeller84: If you are content, why risk all that good stuff in your life to live a life of uncertainty, huge debt, and when you finally make it, working hours uncertainty and major exposure to recession, which is what Western Europe is basically in. Make your own choice, but once CTC have got your money you aren't getting it back, not from them. And the only way to get that money back is to work it back in a plane. There's a lot between you and that seat. It could ultimately cost you your relationship and your house, and your old career. Never mind 120k, for you the total cost picture is far, far higher. It was for me.

greywind

12th Jan 2012, 20:27

I thought it was Virgin Galactic not Virgin Atlantic

transcendental

12th Jan 2012, 21:57

StevieW - to support your POV please can you tell me and the other readers what your current position is and what your route was?

Also, what, in detail do you see as the drivers for CTC and easyJet to improve or change anything to do with their training and recruitment strategies? What do you see as the forces in play?

An opinion is one thing. The ability to qualify that opinion is quite another.

veetwo

12th Jan 2012, 22:50

I'm not 'defending' Flexicrew, I'm indifferent about it. On the one hand it is a far from ideal arrangement, but on the other hand it gets low hours pilots into the right hand seat far quicker than going modular. Whatever way you get there is going to incur a great deal of savings and/or a loan of some kind.

The big problem with this statement is that it can be used to defend just about any mutation of the 'deal' for cadets in the future. In 5 years when ryanair are offering unpaid internships for 12 months will it be acceptable because "it gets low hours pilots into the right hand seat?"

Getting in to the RHS of a commercial passenger aircraft is clearly the ambition of most low houred pilots. And why wouldn't it be - no one spends £100k to fly twins around Africa for 5 years 'paying their dues'. But clearly if people continue to flock to places like CTC in their droves, the deal with only ever get worse, not better. It just simple supply and demand at the end of the day.

I'm with transcendental on this one. There will never, ever be a shortage of cadets and therefore never any reason to improve the deal on offer.

Bealzebub

13th Jan 2012, 14:24

All good , valid and honest viewpoints. However to add to the mix, it should be remembered that the training organisation is expected to talk up the market. Your financial advisor will, Your estate agent will, the lady or gentleman in the car showroom will, the government will.

As SW says: Nobody knows what's going to happen anywhere in the next five years. If you live by worst case scenario, you wouldn't bother getting out of bed in the morning. That doesn't in any way negate the necessity to be cautious, prudent, and realistic, but it is something of a moot point to suggest that: You simply cannot believe whatever CTC tell you about the future, if you are a trainee. They will give you a projection that best suits their sales aspirations, but so will anybody else.

Profit and cashflow are the lifeblood and survival of any company. It doesn't matter whether you are an airline, a training school, or any other commercial business. Run out of cash, and the game ends! Flexicrew and similar arrangements may be less than ideal, but keep in mind that the marketplace for pilots (and particularly ab-initio pilots) over the last few years has been almost completely arid. Despite this, placements and work has been sought wherever it could be found, and this likely involved serious compromise and negotiation to keep any sort of flow going.

Look at the reality of what has happened, and what continues to happen. Airlines are retrenching deeply in certain sections of the market. Others are transforming their business models in order to adapt to survive. Others have been defeated and in turn placed thousands of very experienced pilots into this moribund market. It is true that there are regional pockets of expansion that provide some relief to this oversupply, but make no mistake things are very difficult in the wider market.

It is fortunate in some respects, that as part of many airlines cost saving plans, there has been some visible expansion in the ab-initio cadet end of the market. For some time now the infrastructure to faciliate this has been growing, with significant new investment. If you look at some of my comments here a couple of years ago, I was making this very point.

There is no denying, that training generally, and this type of training specifically, is eye wateringly expensive. Airline placements that dovetail off the back of a full time 200 hour course are a privilege, and an extremely fortunate opportunity for the relatively lucky few. They are part of a difficult apprenticeship, and any rewards need to be viewed in context. As with many other professions, such apprenticeships, placements, and internships, may involve saddling the individual with large debts, no guarantees, insecurity of tenure, and the realisation of all the risks that should have been evident at onset.

When times are good, it is to be hoped that full time contracts of employment will themselves dovetail from these placements, however the current reality is more likely to involve seasonal or part time or piecework contracts, as that reflects what many airlines currently seek as part of their own survival strategy.

Despite the very poor markets of the last few years, and accepting that near term future realities may well make it a short lived "blip," I am currently seeing good things in the cadet output from this training school. Interesting placements are coming from quality airlines in the Middle East and Far East. There has been some ressurgence of good placements in the UK. For cadets who joined CTC in the last 20 months You would likely find many who could indeed believe what they were told at onset, because timing and luck has combined with the usual aspects, to give their own experience a very different flavour.

Erwan

13th Jan 2012, 15:55

Are there some people who are going to be in the CP96?
I'm in, so feel free to contact me via pm.

:)

transcendental

14th Jan 2012, 00:29

The outsourcing of flight training by all airlines represents the major structural remodelling of pilot cost model.

In the current model, of which CTC are a key part, airlines make near zero investment in pilots.

Airlines do not spend anything up to the point that a CTC cadet sits in a flightdeck.

Prior to this point, almost every single cost is borne totally by the cadet, and all the risks attached to that cost are also borne by the cadet.

Under the current CTC TR arrangement, the TR funding is the only time "price" is shared between the cadet and CTC.

The cadet fronts minimum 8.2K towards the price of the type rating. In terms of actual cost, this is close to half the actual cost. The price is whatever the provider sets, and in this regard CTC is extremely expensive compared to what else is available in the open market. Cadets do not have access to the open market if they wish to enter via the Flexicrew route because that route is stitched up. CTC commence TR training with this payment in hand and with the remainder of the cost borne by them in the form of a deferred income once the pilot goes to the line with eJ. Then, CTC takes all the money it is paid by eJ for the cadets line hours and keeps it. In actual fact, eJ pays CTC for every single line hour from zero that the cadet does. CTC keeps all the money, and only releases a fixed 1200 per month to the cadet for 8 months. In my case, CTC kept nearly 30k out of my pocket. In addition, they are also paid fees by eJ as payment for their part as an agency. They keep this as well. This means their income in the first 8 months, in my case was well in excess of 30k. Therefore, over 8 months they made my 8.2K + over 30K. I received 9600.

After the first 8 months of line training, provided the cadet is above 500 hours line flying, they get paid 43 per block hour. Essentially you're not paid anything until you push back and stop getting paid when you get back on blocks. You are not paid anything for your briefing hour before off blocks, the 30 minutes of duty after on-blocks, no pay for turnarounds, and any time on the ground i.e. any form of delay is unpaid.

An eJ pilot's actual duty hours are just over double their flying hours. So in a 900 hour year, you are doing about 1800 duty hours. Therefore, in actual fact you are not being paid 43 an hour. You are really being paid 21.50/hour of time spent at work.

I know the rates easyJet pays to CTC and I know the rates CTC pay to its cadets. There's a big difference. Once you are on the line, contact with CTC is minimal. All they are then doing is running a payroll, and boy are they milking you for it.

Vague clauses covering certain situations to do with roster changes, standbys and a few other scenarios are exploited by the airline to minimise what it needs to pay, and CTC do next to nothing to stand up for the cadets on this matter.

The only "investment" eJ are making to a cadet pilot on the line is the cost of having Training Captains in the LHS during your first 34 - 48 line sectors. This is not really a particular investment. It is actually just turning over the Training Captain asset base that the airline already maintains. It is not actually spending any more money on just the cadet. Cadets are conducting their line training on revenue generating flights. The training is done in a profit-generating environment.

So, you see, the notion of "investment", or expenditure, by the airline is practically zero. This is by deliberate design. The training system you enter with CTC has been designed by them and the airlines specifically to:

Manage risk away from the airline and the training organisation, and place it solely on the trainee.
Manage cost out of the airline's books, and place it solely on the trainee.
Minimise any contractual commitments the airline has by ensuring that cadets are never actually airline employees. This way the airline circumvents tax, National Insurance, employment law and any costs of having a permanent employee.
Reduce to zero the level of commitment the airline has to any individual cadet pilot. The airline is simply buying a block hour. The individual is made practically irrelevant in this exercise.

As a pilot, it is your responsibility to report fit for duty. Sickness or fatigue should prevent you from flying. Now, because of these contracts and training model, pilots face the conflict between doing the right thing i.e. reporting sick or fatigued, and turning up to work unfit because they need the money that badly. This is happening in this airline. This is happening because there is a rotten culture and system that is simply, unfairly and irresponsibly loading too much risk and too much cost on to the shoulders of the individual. The Human Factors book will need some updating very soon.

Also, this airline is pressurising pilots to tow the line by essentially bullying pilots. People are afraid of reporting fatigued because to do so requires the completion of a fatigue report. They are afraid that if they fill in these reports, it will count against them if and when they get a chance to apply for a permanent contract. I know of at least three instances of people being contacted and told "if you don't do what we are telling you: it will count against you when applying for a permanent job; will have your permanent job offer rescinded.". There are more examples than this, but these I know of directly. Three such cases are three too many in a safety critical organisation. CTC is also complicit in this as more than once they have passed these messages along to the cadets.

So, if you bear all of the above in mind, you will see why I fundamentally disagree with the statement by a wannabe trainee that "Flexicrew was ideal" for cadets. It's not. Flexicrew, and the training model before it is not ideal for anyone other than the airline and the FTO. Its fundamental principle of outsourced, profit-generating training with near zero investment from the airline and near zero protections for the cadets is ethically corrupt, is designed and used in ways that undermine safety in this industry, and is totally exploitative. Both the airline and CTC, when challenged, both rely on the statement that "The cadet knew what they were signing up to and they signed the contract.". Even this is a misrepresentation because you can never know how everything in the contract is actually going to work or be used in practice until it's too late. That excuse is the kind used by people who lack the ability to defend their system by any other means.

Now, to understand what might change the status quo...

BALPA, the pilots' union, has known in detail about the CTC arrangement for in excess of two years. In that time, they have taken a total of zero action. Cadets are in BALPA, and do take issues to BALPA, but because the union is not recognised by CTC and currently has no plans to seek recognition, both eJ and CTC are totally able to ignore BALPA.

The Flexicrew cadets are either too apathetic or afraid of working together and standing up for themselves directly to CTC for better terms and conditions.

CTC have not issued any pay rises to cadets for three years. In fact they and the airline cut the total pay a cadet received in the first 8 months, as this used to be 1000 a month plus sector pay.Now it's just 1200 a month. that's around a 4-500 difference.

Also, bear in mind that the entire time you are on a Flexicrew contract, you are on a random roster. You don't know what you are doing next month until the 17th of the month before. This makes planning anything outside of that window totally impossible. BALPA currently states that it doesn't think any pilot should be on this type of roster for more than 3 months. Flexicrew will have you on this for 3 years. With rumoured changes to the contract, there's a possibility people could find themselves on random roster for 5 years, and after that it's unknown what would be offered by the company.

Right now, in the last 18 months, the choices have been CTC Flexicrew then trying for an eJ permanent continental contract. A lot of people have not applied for these contracts because they don't want to leave the UK and they continue to hold out hope that the company will start offering UK contracts which is unlikely IMO. 3 people created their own opportunities at Monarch. When they resigned from eJ, CTC tried to sting them for the contracted bond, despite the fact that in reality, CTC had already made back more than its money for the TR from the money it kept from the cadets. Those cadets took legal advice and the bond amount was reduced with legal negotiation. Once they opened a pathway to Monarch, CTC managed to get about 8 more cadets in to Monarch on the traditional payment arrangement i.e. the airline covered the TR and the cadets went on reduced salary. Just recently, about 20 hold pool cadets have been assessed by Qatar for a decent deal in Abu Dhabi, bonded for three years. TR covered, money tax free. I've just covered a total of 31 cadets. The rest are Flexislaves. That's pushing 250+ CTC cadets.

The likelihood is that you are training for this scheme, with all the stuff I mention.

I know how this system works. I know what problems it is creating. I know what the union's position is on this, and there basically isn't one. There's no one coming to save the day here. This is the employment landscape.

I am not a newbie who wants to enter the training system, trying to find ways to convince myself that I am going to do it. It makes little practical difference to me whether you enter this system now or not, because I am not directly dependent on what is happening below me in the food chain.

If you enter this system, you will come out the other end desperate for anything anyone throws at you. If that happens to be a big **** sandwich, you will have to take a bite. And you'll have to keep eating it, until you can afford not to.

If you actually sit down and do the sums of income and expenditure, even on a BA FO starting salary or maximum 900 hours a year flexicrew pay, or an eJ continental FO contract, the debt repayments take a really, really big swedge, making your actual take home nowhere near as much at the headline salary rates would have you think. Meanwhile, the airline and the FTO rakes it in and will, if able, never ever give you a payrise. That's the game you are entering.

average-punter

14th Jan 2012, 10:11

Thanks Beazlebub, your posts are always great to read from a wannabees point of view!

transcendental (http://www.pprune.org/members/370091-transcendental): I'm seriously considering the CTC route, thanks for taking the time to post the detailed reviews, what interests me is the random roster that flexipilots receive. I was under the impression that you had a standard 5/4 roster at Gatwick?

Another thing I would like to know is the potential of getting a perm position, how long does it typically take to be able to apply for a perm European position? What are the success rates of gaining it? Cheers!

transcendental

14th Jan 2012, 10:53

Rostering myth: easyJet operates a fixed pattern for all its pilots.

No it does not.

Flexicrew pilots are on FRV2 rules, constantly. Constantly random roster. If flown hard on this you are extremely likely to be fatigued. This can result in a random "pattern" of 5/2 which you definitely do not want. That can happen at any base. It happens at LGW and LPL. 5 earlies, 2 off, 5 earlies, 2 off can happen. It is knackering.

IF you managed to get a permanent UK contract, you would still remain on the FRV2 random roster for up to 4 seasons i.e. 2 years. After 2 years you should then go on to the fixed pattern of 5/3/5/4 i.e. 5 earlies, 3 off, 5 lates, 4 off. This is the fixed pattern that is talked about. However, there are constant complaints that the company tries its best t bend the rules and push the rostering agreements to get more and more out of this pattern using transitions.

Also, the company is now hell bent on removing this fixed pattern and replacing it with other patterns that will increase pilot flexibilty so that the company has greater freedom to roster the pilots the way it wants. There has been a company/union project, Merlin, running for about 8 months looking at this. As usual, the company has tied pay into other issues such as rostering, leave and lifestyle as a way to force pilots to give it what it wants. Then it aims low with insulting offers from the outset. This is standard negotiating practice for easyJet. What this project is currently aiming towards is 5/4 with unlimited transitions as the main pattern, then some other permutations. The way the project has been conducted, behind closed doors, is lacking. The final outcome remains to be seen.

So, fixed pattern simply isn't available to you in the UK at all on flexicrew, nor on a permanent UK contract until you've had 2 years on it. And they aren't giving out permanent UK contracts anyway, and probably won't do because there is an endless supply of people who, for some reason, in spite of the facts, want to do this to themselves.

Here's the real rub: When Flexicrew was the only thing on the table, it was the "new" thing and we had no heads up it was coming and were too far in to do anything but press on. We all felt pissed off by that. We were on the changeover point. If you are reading this or anything I've written, there is no such point for you. You are freely entering this system armed with more knowledge than I ever had about CTC, eJ and the Flexicrew contractor situation.

Ignorance, therefore, is not your defence any more. If you freely enter and choose this for yourself, there will be no sympathy for you at the other end when you are struggling to eat in a low hour month. What you are doing by entering this system is literally destroying terms and conditions in the industry. This is why I got off it as fast as I could.

There are multiple sides to this, but if you stopped signing up, the contractual conditions would eventually have to change.

skyways1452

14th Jan 2012, 11:50

Transcendental,

I've been investigating CTC as a typical early-20s student looking for a way into the industry. I just want to thank you for a comprehensive view into the life of a FlexiCrew 'employee'. It's unfortunate as, when looking into the possible routes for training, CTC seems to have such a 'fluid' system in place for placement of cadets as opposed to OAA and FTE who claim to place students but without any real pattern.

Apart from FlexiCrew, are many people placed through Cadet Entry, with repayment of their bond? All I've seen apart from eJ Flexi is a few cadets getting their own places at Monarch and that's about it..

Bealzebub

14th Jan 2012, 12:08

Transcendental,

You make a very well written advocacy of your argument, and it is clearly comprehensive, honest, and extremely valuable to the discussion. Although it is embedded in the post, you said: So, if you bear all of the above in mind, you will see why I fundamentally disagree with the statement by a wannabe trainee that "Flexicrew was ideal" for cadets. It's not. Which provided the context for what you have written in regards to this specific programme, and as it relates to this specific airline. The reason I mention that, is because I found myself reading the main body of your reply and frequently thinking to myself, "so what?"

I absolutely agree with you, and much of what you have written from your own experience and opinion as it relates to this particular programme, within the summary that it is significantly less than ideal for so many of the reasons you have eloquently highlighted. I don't want to do a line by line discussion of what you have said, not least because it is unnecessary, and I wouldn't specifically disagree with your observations. However I would like to make a few points for general consideration.

The outsourcing of flight training by all airlines represents the major structural remodelling of pilot cost model. That is most certainly not the case with most airlines, let alone "all airlines." Splitting this point into two parts. Ab-initio pilot training is something that all but a handful of airlines have never had any "in house" involvement with. It has never been intrinsic to, or a part of their business. Most airlines have either recruited experienced pilots into vacant roles, or where the few that have had any ab-initio or cadet programmes, nearly all have always sourced that side of the business to commercial flight training schools. In my lifetime I can only think of one UK airline that ever moved from an "in house" training school to an outsourcing of that business, and that was BOAC/BEA/BA Hamble, when it decided to close down that arm of the business. Beyond ab-initio, most airlines do not outsource the vast majority of their flight training. It may well involve (and often does) the use of third party simulators etc. But the training is usually completely internal.

In the current model, of which CTC are a key part, airlines make near zero investment in pilots. I would defer to your own experience in the specific example. However I would make the point that beyond that specific, most airlines often make a significant investment in both the pilots they employ and the cadets they may offer placements to. There are cost savings that negate the additional training burden, but if that were not the case, there really would be little incentive in such schemes.

Airlines do not spend anything up to the point that a CTC cadet sits in a flightdeck. Again, outside of the specific example, I can tell you that many airlines do spend significant sums (simulator time, ground school, uniforms, induction and admin' fixed costs) before these cadets ever set foot in the flightdeck.

Prior to this point, almost every single cost is borne totally by the cadet, and all the risks attached to that cost are also borne by the cadet. Yes! This is a fast track route into an early airline pilot career apprenticeship. For the successful few it misses out many of the stepping stone placements and jobs that other successful aspirants might spend many many years of equally if not greater risk, cost and hardship, in aquiring.

Under the current CTC TR arrangement, the TR funding is the only time "price" is shared between the cadet and CTC. Again, and for clarity, in the specific example and not necessarily generally.

This specific arrangement is undoubtably "less than ideal" but as I have already pointed out (and you have to) it has pretty much been the only game in town for the last few years. Whatever its drawbacks and failings, and you highlight many, the reality is that without this "opportunity" there would have been almost nothing. Terms such as "holding pools" and all the problems that result from them, would have been replaced with "holding lakes...seas...and oceans" as "advanced training" came to an almost total grinding halt. That an outlet for such a large number of trainees was sourced at all had to have been a significant and positive thing, when other options and choices weren't there for the taking.

Nobody was or is forced into taking what you descibe as a "Flexislave" contract. Once their CPL/IR/AQC is complete, cadets can take the qualification into the public arena (good luck there,) or elect to take the placements that may exist and be offered at that point in time. They may not be ideal, but when they are offered, are usually a great deal more than is being offered to other 200 hour fATPL holders.

For anybody reading this thread and considering the career paths open to them, they should research, research and keep researching. No matter how many times so many of us say it, there are no guarantees no matter how much you want them, wish there were, or consider it unfair that there aren't! There are significant (and for many people) enormous financial risks. It is an apprenticeship (at best) for the early years. The aquisition of a CPL/IR is not the golden ticket into the airlines historic and normal salary structure. Early success in obtaining an apprenticeship / placement, may very likely fail to cover your living/training/loan costs for some years subsequent to that placement.

one post only!

14th Jan 2012, 12:57

Transcendental, those are excellent post. For anyone wondering about CTC read and digest them.

transcendental

14th Jan 2012, 14:38

B - Sure the scheme doesn't have to be ideal for the trainee, but that it's this low shouldn't just be shrugged off. No ex cadet in the system will tell anyone it's good. The criticism are myriad but similar. Even the CEO of eJ and the Ops Director actively avoid mentioning "Flexicrew". When challenged directly they rolled out stock management answers of "they knew what they were getting into.". No on in the company gives a toss about the welfare of Flexicrew pilots. Rostering will try whatever they want to, the head of pilot management will send out emails reminding people that basically they have no rights in the eJ system, and to even get the remote possibility of a base transfer process has taken over two years and even so, it's rubbish and there's plenty of people denied the move. The company has just forced a bunch of contractors to move to Southend from Luton, Stansted and Bristol, irrespective of the difficulties and costs involved for those pilots. No financial support whatsoever. Pathetic, childish bully boy tactics picking on the weakest and the ones with no union strength. It's a gutless approach to people management.

Use of the word "all" is innaccurate, fair enough, but consider this. eJ is now a feeder airline to others who will take pilots from them at some point. This includes Monarch, BA, Emirates etc. Airlines further down the chain benefit from reduced investment because the trainee paid for everything themselves. That's probably no different past a certain point in the "old" or traditional way of doing things, to be fair.

However, eJ has radically restructured its pilot costs. The cost of the RHS must be on the floor, with almost nowhere left to go, unless they actively cut wages. Actually they are. By not giving inflationary increases each year to either their permanent pilots or Flexicrew, they are continually cutting pilot costs. So, this achievement feeds their cost management "success" and this in turn damages and threatens their competitors who, in turn, must follow suit. This is the race to the bottom. This is what this system enables. It's a key part of it. This affects all airlines in the medium to long term, in the medium and short haul market.

Though you say most other airlines do not engage in this practice, look at what their recruitment status is. Monarch - took a handful of cadets and treated them decently. Now taking experienced and TR's bus pilots on 9/3 contracts but how long will that airline survive? Anyone's guess. Thomas Cook, Thompson, not much doing there. BA - following in the footsteps of easyJet. Outsourced cadet training. Re-engineering their internal pay scales with a threat of using the BMI purchase to create another, cheaper SH/MH carrier etc etc.

The airlines winning this battle are the ones who are willing to get to the bottom the quickest, and they are doing this in a way that is unchecked by the government, the regulators, the unions, the pilots and the trainees.

The notion of not being forced... Once you've walked with a guy more than half way into a tunnel, which way is he most likely to head to get out? Some choices aren't really choices, are they? The real choice is whether to go into this to take all the **** at the end.

When I was in TR at CTC, I bumped into some brand new cadets who were doing their ground school at Soton. They were the first tranche to do that. I was talking to them about things and I asked them what they were told by CTC about the state of affairs. One guy, I remember exactly who he is, told me that Daphne had told his intake that they didn't need to be concerned about Flexicrew because by the time they came out, the deals on the table wouldn't be flexicrew any more. Well, guess what? It is! Flexicrew is in eJ until 2014/15, when the supply contract comes to an end. Then, no doubt, terms will be renegotiated downwards, just like they were last time.

patm92

14th Jan 2012, 14:55

Wonderful posts everyone, definately very informative :D:D

What happens to your training bond if you get placed through the Flexicrew route, as opposed to Cadet or Direct Entry? Does it get payed back, on what conditions or is it also forfitted - as it is with Direct Entry?

transcendental

14th Jan 2012, 15:19

Forget your bond. It's not getting "paid back". It never was. The only thing you were getting was a tax break on the borrowed sum. You were getting a reduced salary and a tax break on the remainder. You are paying your own loan and always were.

Under Flexicrew, you don't even get that. You are just paying the full whack repayments until they are done. Go to the continent on a perm eJ contract, the same applies. Come back into the UK via transfer, the same applies.

Your bond is just you paying up front for your training. It sits in a bank account in CTC and the interest allows them to buy all sorts of nice stuff. It's a good game for them.

95% of people are going to eJ Flexicrew. The ones in Qatar don't get bond repayments, they pay it back from their own untaxed wages.

Only Monarch recently went along the old lines of the tax break, and they aren't taking any more cadets at the moment, and their expansion isn't exactly big.

wit if hear excel

14th Jan 2012, 17:16

Absolutely everything Transcendental says is entirely on the money.

Newbies, please realise now that neither Easyjet, CTC or dare I say it Balpa, are interested in making your life better or doing anything for you. A pay rise with Flexicrew is not going to happen and any permanent UK contracts, if they are offered again will be on terms and conditions woefully below those offered in the past.

Once this sentiment is well and truly locked away in that keen and eager mind of yours should you think about proceeding along this particular path. :}

FANS

14th Jan 2012, 18:04

transcendental - brilliant posts and a must read for those with half a brain + looking into any form of airline training.

Aside from BA's scheme, I'd still say CTC is one of the best out there as it gets you on the A320. That statement, however, reflects how bad the industry now is, rather than how good CTC is!

There will still be many who couldn't give a monkeys, as the irony is that it's never been easier to get into jet airline flying!

Unbelievable.

horlixx

14th Jan 2012, 22:17

Hi Guys.

Great posts. Loads of interesting reading. :D

I have been seriously considering CTC as a training provider but the info has kind of put me off a little. Could I just ask if there are any trainees training with CTC who can pitch in? Also, anyone on FlexiCrew who can give advice on woking conditions? I really don't mind hard work but bad conditions are never great!

Cheers all

Hezza

19th Jan 2012, 08:27

Whilst not wishing to avoid the previous conversation... anyone signed up to CP97?

PM Me :)

vikdream

24th Jan 2012, 18:41

Do you know about any cadets that have been fired during or after the completion of the TR? Or, let's say, before 1 year with EZY. If so, what happened with them? Did CTC look for another airline for them?

And a second question, what happens with the security bond under the Flexicrew contract? Do you get paid repayments (let's say, 1000 pounds a month) + 42 pounds an hour (they are supposed to give you your money back, isn't it?)? What happens then with "your" security bond?

:ok:

Wing_Bound_Vortex

24th Jan 2012, 19:37

Yes there have been cadets " let go " or fired if you will, pre and post line check and a couple up to the end of the first 8 months, prior to being offered a flexi crew contract. I don't know what happened after they left, the arrangement I'm sure was between them and CTC.

As has been previously mentioned forget about the "bond", all it is is the training costs CTC require for the course, if you end up on flex crew you don't see any bond repayment. The hourly rate is all you get, hope that's clear enough for anyone wondering.

patm92

29th Jan 2012, 14:37

Very insightful posts everyone.

On another topic, anyone starting on CP94 - 27 February?

PM me :)

MJS23

9th Feb 2012, 16:15

Anyone on CP95 in April that I've not yet met? Join FB group 'CP95' if so!

FlyingEagle21

23rd Feb 2012, 09:57

Hi good morning,

Could someone verify if ctc still hold phase 4 of the assessment process. I've read through the forum and some people a few years ago have had a sim session, whilst others have been told they're successful after 2 & 3.

Also ctc have no information regarding phase 4 on their website and suggest phase 3 is the final Part.

I also understand some people think the assessment at ctc is less rigorous that before and much easier to get into. Have the standards dropped. Why would this be and What do you think of this?

Anymore info would be benificial to myself and anyone else thinking of the cadet programme.

patm92

23rd Feb 2012, 16:28

Hi FlyingEagle21

If you are applying for the CTC Wings Cadet Programme, then there are only 3 phases. As far as I know CTC only holds a phase 4 for pilots applying on the APL programme - they already hold a licence.

Regards

nabanoba

27th Feb 2012, 05:02

Hello all,

I was just wondering could anyone tell me how difficult it is to get into the CTC wings programme?

I was just reading on pilotjobsnetwork.com that the overall success rate for a potential candidate is 1.5-2 %. Is this true?

Jerry Lee

27th Feb 2012, 12:13

Yes, it is true.

Wing_Bound_Vortex

27th Feb 2012, 16:28

It used to be true.....ish. But a long time ago. Wouldn't worry about pointless stats, if you perform ok you'll get in.

BerksFlyer

27th Feb 2012, 17:24

There is no longer a surplus of people able (and wanting) to fund the training. It used to be the case that unsecured loans were available and employment prospects (with training bond being returned and a proper contract) were very good and hence competition very high. Nowadays neither of those points are true and thus there are less people walking through the door hoping to be 'selected' by CTC. Logically it follows that the standard required to get in has plummeted as CTC want to continue pumping out students to easyJet on their flexicrew contract in order to make money off of them.

nabanoba

29th Feb 2012, 04:27

Thanks for all the replies.

Much appreciated!

vikdream

29th Feb 2012, 08:41

I don't know whether the 1,5% pass rate is still true or not, but I can assure you that it is still very difficult to be accepted. I had my selection day one month ago, and I saw brilliant people (engineers, people with PPLs, people with other degrees and a lot of experience...) going back home with a "thank you but you don't meet our standards".

This is, at least, for the Cadet Scheme. Of course some of them will be offered the ICP route, although that's a different thing :ok:

razor27

29th Feb 2012, 08:55

"This is, at least, for the Cadet Scheme. Of course some of them will be offered the ICP route, although that's a different thing http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

ICP had just begun when I finished the course about 3 years ago.
I was never able to differentiate between the cadets and icp and the question was asked but never answered because there is no differentiation. We had guys on our course who were icp and they went through every stage in exactly the same way and ended up with easyJet. There is NO selection now, one way or another you will be offered a place. If you have the money you will get in.

Sad but true.

doz111

5th Mar 2012, 16:17

As to the percentage of people that are selected I had my phase 2/3 combined assesment day a few months back.

The assessor said that large numbers of people send in the application form online but only around 20% of those that pass this first stage bother to then go on and pay the £190 and book an assessment day.

This is probably a large factor in the 2% pass rate figure people are suggesting, and its more likely that 2% (or more) of total online applicants go on to receive an offer for the "Wings" cadet course.

FlyingEagle21

12th Mar 2012, 13:44

Hi can any previous wings cadets answer a few questions.
I believe that cadets and self sponsored iCP students study together on the same course. eg CP90 Is mixed.
What is the ratio between cadets and iCP? And how many cadets are there usually on a course?

Also anyone have any idea wether ctc will get any new contracts or renew with ej? Are they putting through more cadets that jobs at the end.

What's he out look for 2+ years?
Any more info would be beneficial.

Thanks

MylesSRi

13th Mar 2012, 17:12

Hello folks,

I've been reading around and I seem to be getting a general impression that most Wings cadets go into EJ. Would this be correct?

To further the previous question, am I correct in saying it is a three year contract with EJ, paid by the hour and then you are let go at the end?

razor27

13th Mar 2012, 22:44

No, you can be let go at any time, it is a zero hours contract, although as long as you mantain the standard you will get some hours.
However......
As many people have found ej have over recruited massive amounts of FO's over the last two years (something we were told they would not do) so the flexicrew guys who were getting 900 hours a year are now finding that these hours are dropping off considerably. Over the winter plenty of people were flying 10-20 hours a month. That works out to about £1000 gross with a standby thrown in. That's tough to live on. Yes, but you fly loads in the summer I hear you say, great, a possible 100 hours in the summer months works out at circa 4.5k gross a month for about 4 months. Enough to break even from the incremental debt you got into over the winter and then it's back into the lean winter season.
Basically throw in another 5k loan at least for additional living expenses in the first year of flying and forget about paying back any of the loan which will be rapidly growing through accumulated interest.
Although with expansion rapidly slowing down at ej I would have thought that the odds of getting into a job are increasingly slim.
I would wait to see what kind of deal the MPL guys get when they get on the line.
Seeing as how they can only work for ej I can't see them being on anything like the hourly rate currently 'enjoyed' by flexicrew pilots.

The risk/reward ratio skyrocketed towards risk over the last 2 years. Anyone who signs up for a course of flying training now without a very clear exit strategy if all goes belly up and who simply hopes that they will get a job is, in my humble opinion, crazy.

Bombarde

14th Mar 2012, 18:32

Hi, I'm due to start my course in October and was wondering if anyone could shed any light on the CTC accommodation in Southampton. They are very happy to show Clearways looking wonderful in NZ on the website but don't really mention what 'shared accommodation' will actually look like. Can anyone clarify for me or even post a pic?

Bealzebub

14th Mar 2012, 19:41

The shared accommodation is comprised of houses rented on the commercial market. The ones I have seen are typical four and five bedroom modern homes on estates in nearby towns. You will need your own transport to commute a few miles into Nursling. Often people will share lifts with someone who has their own transport.

Bombarde

14th Mar 2012, 23:55

Great, thanks.

MylesSRi

15th Mar 2012, 15:44

Razor27, thanks for the info. I agree with you, it would be hard to get a Job and I also think it would be difficult to financially survive even if you did!

Would anyone know if EJ still offer permanent contracts when you get enough experience? Whether it is for a base abroad or in the UK doesn't really matter to me.

razor27

15th Mar 2012, 18:07

Myles,

Yes, people are constantly heading off to Milan and Paris at the moment, not so much the other European bases. However, this is because so many new captains are coming from these bases and heading to LGW. Again, the number of command courses will rapidly slow down in the next couple of years which will slow down the recruitment and therefore movement to European bases.
If you are lucky enough to get into easy after finishing your training then plan on being on flexicrew for at least 2 years on much lower terms than currently exist. I'm pretty sure by then the management will have come up with ingenious ways of lowering terms in the European bases too so moving to them on a permanent contract will become less attractive.
My last point is that since starting flying training the terms and conditions have dropped at a jaw dropping rate. I am constantly amazed at how low the conditions have become.
Believe me, it becomes very tiresome losing 15% of your monthly pay when a nice long 4 sector day gets replaced with an AMS. It is impossible to plan because your monthly pay will vary so much even after your roster is published because of all the changes.

Sounds negative? Yep, this is the reality....

Stonebaked

15th Mar 2012, 18:11

Anyone else currently on CP100 ?

razor27

15th Mar 2012, 18:47

lol, oh well......

average-punter

15th Mar 2012, 20:25

Thanks for the info! Is any of the roster fixed for instance the the first week? At what point are you offered a perm contract on the continent i.e is it straight after line training? Also what are the hoops to jump through to get one?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to research as much as I can

Cheers!

HPbleed

15th Mar 2012, 22:02

At what point? There is no point. You have to APPLY - go through a whole NEW interview process and group exercises even if you have flown for eJ for 3 or more years. These aren't hoops either. People fail at this stage and remain a flexicrew pilot. None of the roster is fixed.

Please also be aware that the future is not permanent contracts at easyJet. eJ don't want it, CTC/OAA don't want it because they get a cut from your flexicrew salary. eJ is becoming Ryanair - expect to pay for everything and get nothing. Expect in 3 years to have contract Captains, no permanent FO's and further degradations to working conditions.

average-punter

15th Mar 2012, 22:40

Thanks for your response HP, seems like I completely misunderstood how the system works.

razor27

15th Mar 2012, 22:45

average punter

HPBleed is spot on.
There really is no future for permanent positions at easyJet.
The callousness of the communications we get from management are truly amazing.
It is very clear to anyone with an ounce of foresight that the future at easy is contract Captains. Frankly the only thing holding the t's & c's of pilots in Europe together are the European unions. Balpa have openly admitted that they are not interested in pursuing the rights of flexicrew pilots so the rot has set and will only get worse.

razor27

16th Mar 2012, 08:15

Yes, I am on a permanent contract but went through 18 months of flexiscrew.
When the latest pay deal came out Balpa had negotiated a pay freeze for flexiscrew for another 2 years. For some reason it is acceptable for us to accept a pay drop over the next 2 years. What kind of union negotiates that?

Having been in the industry for a few years I now realise that self interest rules, don't expect anyone to watch your back and certainly don't expect the 'friendly' management to do anything except try and screw you.
The communication all FO's have received in the last 48 hours about swaps is testament to that.

BlackandBrown

16th Mar 2012, 08:42

All of this aside average punter, try and see the wood for the trees. Contracts and bases etc are all fine detail when compared with:

1. Can you finance the training?
2. Can you take the risk?
3. Will you pass all the training?
4. Will you be a good boy or girl and keep your head down so CTC don't get angry with you? I.e. accept everything they say to you with no reply from your side other than 'yes sir, no sir - I'm not a customer, I'm a very lucky boy or girl sir'. In other words you do not have a right to dissatisfaction - some people can't cope with that. This may be the same at all FTOs - I only trained at CTC so I don't know.
5. Why do you really want this?
6. If you don't train what will be the effect on you? Could you accept it?

Don't try and predict the future - the industry, what's on offer and your flexibility WILL change for the better or worse when out the other side of training. Though you may think you're being sensible asking what you're asking you are in fact being irrelevant.

It's all just my opinion, not advice - don't look for advice on here unless it is targeted, specifically through PM from people with a proven track record in posting.

razor27

16th Mar 2012, 10:34

Indeed they did spicejetter.

Don't expect a permanent contract in the UK anytime soon.

Vive la France.

BlackandBrown

16th Mar 2012, 12:22

The funny thing is by their very actions flexicrew are accepting and allowing it to happen. Those who put a priority on money and security have taken a Permanant mainland contract at the first instance or gone to other airlines on a Permanant contract. Those who have made it their highest priority to be in the uk are financially far worse off, a month away from no job, still being subsidised by someone and are perpetually complaining. A few are unecessarily bankrupt. Make your choice and live with it. As a caveat - I know there are one or two who need to be in the uk, at home for genuine personal reasons ( ill relatives and new offspring) and I sympathise with their situation.

Kishanp

18th Mar 2012, 00:19

Just got back from the CTC Open Day... Got some time on the 737 Sim and allowed my parents a better insight into the CTC Wings Cadet program.

There's a lot of negative talk here about how Pilots are forced to slave away for long hours on the flexicrew program. Today I was informed that the holding pool is empty and every pilot has been given a full job with the airlines, direct entry I think.

Anyone else there today?

transcendental

18th Mar 2012, 03:09

Define "full job". Define "Direct Entry". I think you are using terms that totally misrepresent the present situation at best. At worst, you make a very inaccurate statement.

Going to a CTC Open Day is likely to get you further information. That information is highly unlikely to be impartial and unbiased. The quality of that information is partially dependent upon the quality and precision of the questions asked, and heavily dependent upon the interests of those giving the answers.

Flexicrew is not "a full job". Nor is it "direct entry".

It is fixed term (three years), zero hours contracting.

It is not a permanent contract with fixed salary, benefits and full employment law protections. To get that you must land a permanent contract. In the UK, these simply are not available in easyJet.

As a Flexicrew pilot you are not employed by easyJet, you are employed by CTC. On a zero hours contract you will never be made redundant due to the airline not needing you. You will simply not be flown and therefore you will not earn any money. Try claiming benefits with that contract. Try paying your loan back with that contract in a low hour month, or string of them. Winter is cold. Colder when you can't pay all your bills. Try having a reliable second job on a random roster.

Possible changes in the pipeline at easyJet does not improve that situation. It simply paves the way for more and worse. The only way out is to get a job at a different operator or apply for a permanent continental contract if they become available again and you have the required hours, an acceptable training record and can pass the assessment process (which is into its second iteration).

Believing at face value what CTC tells you about its programme is naive. The serious posts on here about this programme, where it leads and the terms and conditions in eJ are generally easy to spot. And yes, they are broadly negative.

A major reason for this is because easyJet has decided to adopt essentially cut throat, short term, exploitative practices against its own employees across all European operations in a direct attempt to lower it's crew costs. It publicly committed to this strategy in the 2011 results announcement to the markets, in it's 2010 strategy announcements to staff and the markets and in it's 2008 strategy announcements, to name a few instances.

The rostering and lifestyle package that the management released is designed to achieve exactly that: more work for less money over the next four years, plus an increasing dependence on variable productivity/performance related pay which will force greater compliance and pliability onto the workforce over the years, while undermining the older pilots T&Cs with the newer guys T&Cs. The Company is re-engineering from the bottom up and the top down simultaneously. It is trying to force the guys at the top to vote in worsening conditions at the bottom by witholding their pay rise until they agree to a total package which shafts the new guys. In the medium to long term, the new guys' terms will come to dominate, and they will be so far behind the old terms that no union will be able to play catch up, least of all BALPA, the union that helped bring in the Flexicrew contracts, has achieved nothing in the last 2.5 years to stop or improve those contracts AND actually recommended a down grading of UK First Officer terms that it never revisited even though it was conned into the down grade.

easyJet growth is slowing down. The business is fairly mature. To get further increases in profits the options must include: cutting internal costs, some of the biggest being wages, benefits and pensions; better network management i.e. deploying aircraft on the highest yield, highest load routes, which inherently requires as much flexibility as can be achieved, a major block to which is people, their contracts and rights.

Trouble is, where else are you going to go?

Oh yeah, they know that too.